Lola Akinmade: Evolution and The Taste of Bitter Honey

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One thing I always say is, if you keep breaking yourself into bits and pieces just to fit in in different spaces, then you're broken into pieces.
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You're not enough.
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Hello and welcome to this week's episode of the Conversation with your host, nadine Matheson.
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As always, I hope that you're well and I hope that you've had a good week, and I also hope that you've been enjoying the sample episodes of Coffee Break.
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I think there have been, no, not that I think.
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I know there have been four episodes so far.
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Yesterday there was a Coffee Break with Eze Cosby talking about his new novel, king of Ashes.
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Last week there was a Coffee Break episode with Lola Jay.
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Then we had who did we have?
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Oh, we had Rod Reynolds, and then we started with Helen Monkstacker, and Coffee Breaks are going to be 30 minute episodes.
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Initially I said 20, but I do talk a lot and I try.
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I try so roughly.
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They're about half an hour, which I think is a good length of time to sit down, listen to me talking to an author you know, or maybe an author you don't know.
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Enough time to you to sit and listen.
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Learn about their new book while you're drinking your coffee or having your tea or, I don't know, eating a packet of crisps, I don't know.
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Whatever you choose doing your coffee break.
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But I think these are really good episodes.
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You learn about the author, learn about their new books.
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And in season season four of the Conversation, which will start in September, coffee Breaks will be a regular feature.
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And another feature of the Coffee Break episode is going to be listener questions, and what I want to do is put listener questions to the authors.
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So what I want you to be thinking about over the summer, I want you to think about all the questions that you would love to ask an author, and what I will try and do is, prior to my recording of a coffee break episode, I will tell you who I'm going to be talking to and you can put your questions to me and I will put them to the author.
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You will get a shout out and it's happy days all around.
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So I'm going to leave it there about my little love fest for coffee breaks, because I really enjoyed them and I hope that you're enjoying them too.
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Now let's get on with the show.
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In today's episode, I'm in conversation with author Lola Akamadi, whose new novel Bitter Honey is out now, and in our conversation, lola and I talk about the struggles of pursuing creative dreams, the importance of being seen and heard, and finding strength after life's unexpected turns.
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Now, as always, sit back, we'll go for a walk and enjoy the conversation.
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Lola Akamadi, welcome to the conversation.
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Thank you for having me.
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I'm so excited to be here, I'm so glad to have you here because, Lola, right when I was on your website and I was like this woman is a lot of things, You're down as an author, photographer what else?
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Speaker, mentor and idlist, which I like.
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So my first question for you is how would you describe Lola?
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that's a great one, and I do get that question quite a bit.
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It's, um, I just describe myself as a storyteller, and so the platform and the medium doesn't matter.
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It's the story that I'm trying to tell.
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Right, and that's why you see me as a photographer or writing articles, you know, travel writing or novelist or all these things.
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It's because, if I have a story to tell, I then figure out what's the best way of telling the story.
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Sometimes it's maybe through a painting, sometimes it's maybe through photography or words.
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So that's what, how I describe myself when did you know that you could tell stories, though?
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Because I always think that, especially when it comes to writers, I always say a lot of people know you can have the skill of writing, but I think it's a completely different medium knowing that you can tell a story.
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So when did you know you could do that?
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maybe when I was nine or ten nine or ten, because I used to, you know, look at all these different magazines, look at the people, wonder what their lives were about then cut out their pictures and then write stories about the lives I think they were having.
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Really.
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So that's so.
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That's what I used to do, yes, and then when I went to boarding school you know, between 10 and 15, I used to write short stories and I used to run I call my own little library where I wrote.
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I filled up notebooks with short stories and then I had a sign out sheet so my friends would check them out and check them back in for the next friend to read.
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So I think that's kind of how I knew is.
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I always looked at those pictures.
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Those people wondered what their lives were and if I didn't know, how about I create what I thought it was?
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And then I did that and so.
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On those books I actually had those photos stick like labeled and and attached to the books.
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Actually those photos stick like labelled and attached to the books.
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Actually those photos from the magazines.
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So you know, when you look at children children and you see their creativity and it's just so important just to let them just like fly with it and not stifle it.
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Because look at you sitting there, you know, nine years old, putting your books together and then creating your own library and then bringing your friends on board for them to loan out, you know to borrow the books.
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And I think back to myself.
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I always say, when I was like nine, I was always doing my little.
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I called them my little projects, so I'd sit there with my notebook and write my little project.
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Now no one's asking for these projects, but I just used to write these projects and they could be anything.
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They could be like stories or it could be because I loved history, even young.
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So like I'll do my own research with the big, massive encyclopedia and I'll do my own research and pull it in these.
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No, but my parents just left me to it.
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It's so important, you know.
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I think for you it was history, I think for me it was geography.
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I loved maps and always.
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I think that's why I also ended up as a travel writer and photographer.
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I was always looking at maps wondering you know again what other people were doing in those little boundaries?
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We drew around each other, right.
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Yeah.
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And so human geography was always something that pulled me.
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So yeah, no, absolutely I definitely relate.
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Yeah, and so human geography was always something that that pulled me.
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So yeah, no, absolutely I definitely relate.
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I think it's always.
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I think, when you're a creative person, I think, whatever your medium is, you're always asking questions.
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Because when I was going through your website, I was looking at the photographs and I wrote it down.
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This question popped into my head and I said to myself do you think that you ask questions through your photos, the photographs that you take?
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so it really depends, right.
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So I always say, because I also have fine art photography and travel photography, fine art photography is the one that is questioned.
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So that's why you look at a painting or you look at a photograph and say I wonder what the artist was thinking, and you try to deduce.
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So about photography actually gives you all the answers in a single epic photo.
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So you say, oh, my goodness, I see it, I get everything the time of day, the why, the what you know, all of that.
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So it really depends on what I'm trying to communicate.
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Am I trying to say you know this photo, I won't leave it up to interpretation?
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Then that will be more of my fine art photography.
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Or with travel photography, it gives you all the answers in one single image and I said the stronger.
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How you can tell if, um, you know your photo is quite strong, especially as a travel photographer, is if it gives you all the answers in a single image.
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That's very different from final photography that wants you to figure out what the artist is trying to do it's so funny because you know we're all taking photos like every minute of the day and you know there was a time when you had to put work into taking a photo.
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You have to go and find your camera, take the photograph and then you had no idea if the photograph was any good or not until you got them back.
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And then I just remember the amount of money I spent on photographs and picking them up, yeah, and everyone got the sticker on them because they're out of focus or they're blurred.
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But now everyone's everyone considers themselves a photographer, absolutely, but you know that also gives.
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I mean, I used to start with film as well and I can remember there was a time I went one of my earlier trips to to iceland with all film and I lost all those rolls of film through like a scanning machine and that was the first time I saw the northern lights.
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So I get it.
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So I get it where you don't you, you don't have many chances.
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You know you have, especially like with film, you have this is the iso.
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You're shooting at 400, that's all you have.
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You have to be, uh, intentional about what you shoot.
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Even now, with the cameras I take, I usually take fixed lenses so I can zoom right.
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So I'm intentional about creating the shot.
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And so, even though people, we say that well, everybody's, everybody's a photographer, now, most of us that work as professional photographers, we actually are threatened by that.
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It's actually letting people explore their creativity.
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And there's a T-shirt that I think is quite funny that says everybody's a photographer unless they have to switch to manual.
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I thought that was really cool.
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But honestly, I'm from the other camp where I feel like if it's helping people see the world differently, if it's helping people tap into their creativity, you know, I don't think that, uh, I think that's a good thing to some extent, but there are those of us that obviously work on it that do this professionally.
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We know the settings, we know what to do.
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We can't just go into a setting and just rely on luck.
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We actually have to go in knowing that this is how we're going to be able to create the image.
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Do you think people are like less intentional then, with their art, when you just have it, it's no, it's, it's, it's in your hand and it's it's less about capturing the moment as opposed to creating like a perfect moment all right, and I think that's where you can start telling.
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you know, I think that's when you can really start telling who does work with intention and who is just taking a photo just because it's pretty Right.
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And that's why I say it doesn't matter if everybody's taking photos, because it's easy for me to see if a photographer is moving through their craft with intention.
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Do you feel the same way about your writing?
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Everything I do is intentional in a good way, and I think that's all tied to my purpose, because I'm grateful to have found out my purpose very early on, very early on, and so everything I do connects to that right.
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So my purpose really is about cultural connection.
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How can we get to know each other better, understand each other better, and how can I fight isolation and exclusion within my own sphere of influence?
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So every story, everything I do I post, is kind of tied to that.
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How can I bring us one step closer?
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By fostering understanding?
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How can I do that?
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By having the difficult conversations right.
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How can I do that?
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By letting you see yourself in me reflected back.
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So everything I do in that sense is just tied organically to that purpose, whether it's writing or photography or whatever.
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Did you ever feel that I don't know with any like hesitancy in pursuing your craft and like your talent?
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Because I was just.
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I was thinking, um, I think I was listening to something yesterday and it was all about you know, embracing your talent.
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Because I was just.
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I was thinking, um, I think I was listening to something yesterday and it was all about you know, embracing your talent and pushing through with it, no matter how difficult you know the circumstances may be around it.
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And then sometimes we can stop ourselves because we say to ourselves maybe this isn't for me or people like me don't do this.
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But any times that you had doubts about that, in the beginning, when I was younger, you know.
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But then the many times I stopped seeking external validation, then it didn't matter, right?
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I think when we're young, we want to prove to the world see I'm talented, see I can do this, I can do all that.
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But then you get all the rejections, or people don't really care, or people are threatened by your talent, and so once you stop kind of seeking that external validation and focusing on what you do, it might be a challenging road but you already have something else driving you, so you're going to be able to push through those challenges, right?
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One of the things I always say is I don't focus on staying relevant.
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I focus on the next evolution of who I'm supposed to be right, because if I focus on I must stay relevant, I must stay relevant.
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Then I am beholden to trends.
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I'm beholden to more external factors than focusing on.
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Okay, lola, maybe this is not working at this time in your life.
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Maybe you need to consider the next stage of your life as a storyteller, because your audience, they evolve with you, or the people that used to connect with you when you were younger no longer do and you need to make space for that evolution of yourself.
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So I'm grateful that I was able to figure out what my purpose was very early on and then kind of limiting that external validation, because I always say if you kind of live your life outside of people's expectations of you, then you are already impossible to ignore Anyway, because they're like, who the hell is that person not living to what I, she, should be doing?
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So, whether it's negative or positive, you're already gonna um, get that.
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People are gonna figure, you know, find out about you anyway.
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But it's not about that.
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It's about focusing on you, your craft and your.
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Why, why are you doing this?
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but you know, it's so difficult for some people to do because they're continuously and I wrote about this yesterday, funny enough for my luck of my substack they're they're continuously looking at what's going on around them.
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So they are looking at the trend.
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They are looking at people who, you know, all they're seeing is surface.
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So all they are seeing is that, oh, they've got the deal and they've got the publicity campaign and they've got the number one bestseller status, and because they're constantly looking at that and then it kind of diminishes and, yeah, diminishes and devalues how they feel and what they should be doing, and then it stops them I mean, we're human, right, we're not.
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Yeah, we're human after all, and that's what I call rubber necking when you're looking at somebody that's in a totally different part in your life, so your rubber neck, it's kind of like moving past a car crash and you're just looking, looking, looking until you hit the car in front of you, right, that is what we need to start doing is, okay, I'm seeing all this person's accolades.
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I'm seeing all this person's you know, curated good stuff.
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They are on a different path in life than I am.
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What's my own life?
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What's my own race?
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What's my own life?
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What's my own race?
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What's my own shine?
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And I think a lot of people you know, I was talking to my daughter recently and she said, mom, she said she would like to be wealthy without fame, right?
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And I said, ok, I get that.
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You want to be silently powerful, silently thriving, thriving but nobody knows your name.
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I think most people I would love to do that you know.
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It's just silently thriving and people don't have to know you physically.
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So I think, again, it depends on what you're looking for.
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What are you looking for?
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Because it's easy to look and see somebody having all this fame and like do you really, really, truly want that kind of um, uh visibility?
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Because it also comes with its own set of negativity.
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It comes with is that and I always tell my friends is that I can still play on social media right, which means I have been myself from the beginning to right now, so that I can post whatever I.
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I am not so curated to the point where I can't even post a ridiculous meme because the world is holding me to a different.
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You see what I'm saying I can't post whatever I want, You're holding you to a different standard.
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Yeah.
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Right, and I think there are many authors that have cornered themselves in that box of saying this is how I want to show up, this is how I want to be seen, this is how I want to show up, this is how I want to be seen, this is how I want to be treated, this is how I want to own the space that they've actually connect themselves, where now they can't even play or say anything or just fully be themselves, even if they want to.
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And so for me, I think that's a privilege to just feel as yourself and to see as yourself.
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Those that connect with you will, but make sure that you're not showing up in under, in other people's, within other people's frameworks of what you're supposed to be as a daughter yeah, I always find it interesting.
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People have always said to me oh, that I curate my um, and they don't say they don't mean it in a negative way, but they're like in a positive way.
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Oh, you know how I curate my Instagram.
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I'm like I don't curate it, I just post whatever I want to post, because, I said, I haven't boxed myself in the corner.
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I think the only limit like I place on myself in terms of what I post on social media is that I think there are limits to my private life.
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Like I feel like you don't need to see every single thing, yeah, like you don't need you really don't need to see what I had for breakfast and how I'm feeling about my neighbor.
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Like you don't need to know about that.
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Like I tell my friends and family I don't need to post it.
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But in terms of, but I don't think I.
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I don't feel like I.
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I think I'm trying to say like, consciously or intentionally, like curate it to create an image, a certain image of me.
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I think what you see on social media is basically what you will see in person yes, absolutely, absolutely, and I think that's that's key.
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You know I look at like the Oladide Viola Davis incredible actress.
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She posts some of the most ridiculous memes.
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I love it.
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You know that you can just be all of yourself and that's more than enough.
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That's more than enough, you know, and so so that, I think, is super important yeah, it just reminded me.
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I posted a.
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It wasn't even a meme, it was a clip from the Simpsons I can't remember the character's name singing this song and it's just the most ridiculous thing.
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But I think it's just so reflective of my sense of humor, because every time I see it just cracks me up and when I posted it, like my brother and my friends are like is this so you?
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Only you were just like posting.
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I'm like because it's funny, you know.
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You know the internet is like the bastion of like.
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You know it's like an abyss of nonsense.
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But I'm glad, I'm grateful.
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But I'm glad, I'm grateful it gave us means that I'm grateful.
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I think, like anything, because I said this yesterday, you can't.
00:20:19.133 --> 00:20:36.269
You have to find your space within the madness of the internet and the madness of social media and you need to work out what works best for you, like what platform works best for you, what platform most likely reflects your personality better.
00:20:36.269 --> 00:20:44.570
And I think once you've done that, you can kind of navigate the waters better, because I always see people and I'm very cynical.
00:20:44.570 --> 00:20:47.182
I need to, like stop being so cynical and rolling my eyes at things.
00:20:47.182 --> 00:20:51.320
But when I see people, they're like oh, all I'm seeing is x, y and z on my post.
00:20:51.320 --> 00:20:57.681
But I'm like that's because you, you're seeing that, because that's what you've seeked, like, you've looked out for that.
00:20:57.681 --> 00:21:02.707
So if you change your direction, you'll see something different.
00:21:04.729 --> 00:21:05.630
No, absolutely.
00:21:05.630 --> 00:21:15.553
And you know, even just in terms of people placing value on what the, what social media tells them.
00:21:15.553 --> 00:21:26.273
So, for example, like there are lots of people, some incredible artists, with very few follow accounts, right, and there are those that have, like you know, thousands or millions.
00:21:26.273 --> 00:21:38.170
And that doesn't just because you have a lower follower count, that doesn't devalue you or say, or that doesn't define your value as an artist.
00:21:38.851 --> 00:21:55.907
Or you know, there was one brand, it was actually a destination once, and before I got my follower count, which is still kind of low up a little bit, they said, oh, they can't work with me because my follower count was 3,000, less than what they wanted.
00:21:55.907 --> 00:22:05.307
And I said, oh really, so if I went and bought 3,000 followers, then that all of a sudden, that means I can work with you.
00:22:05.307 --> 00:22:17.829
Of course I didn't do that, but they were quiet because I I showed them the how absurd it was where they said, well, you're the same person, but because you don't have this number, then we can work with you.
00:22:17.829 --> 00:22:26.897
And I'm like well, so if I just went and bought those numbers, then you can work with me it's, it's so, it's so artificial.
00:22:27.078 --> 00:22:29.285
Yeah, it's stupid and it's like, it's like it's artificial.
00:22:29.285 --> 00:22:43.645
Because even when I think about um, like back on the days, like on old on twitter and then before twitter then turned into x and went silly and I can't remember I think I didn't have a massive follower number.
00:22:43.645 --> 00:23:00.271
I think it was like 5,000 in change on followers, but the engagement was almost zero, almost zero, and it's like, well, there's no point having this large follower number and you're not getting anything from it.
00:23:00.271 --> 00:23:12.233
And then when I went to blue sky, it's I think it's seven and a, I think it's seven and a half thousand on blue sky, but the engagement is there and I'm sub stack.
00:23:12.233 --> 00:23:17.967
It's low because I'm just growing it organically, but even though it's low, I get more engagement.
00:23:17.967 --> 00:23:18.948
On that.
00:23:18.948 --> 00:23:27.945
I think we're in comparison to fred's or Blue Sky combined, and so you just have to weigh it up.
00:23:27.945 --> 00:23:29.242
What are you looking for?
00:23:29.242 --> 00:23:30.385
Is it the perception?
00:23:31.449 --> 00:23:32.151
Yeah, exactly.
00:23:32.151 --> 00:23:34.228
And also, who is the audience?
00:23:34.228 --> 00:23:54.471
So even if I go somewhere and I post about this trip and I say, oh, check out this, I don't know luxury place or Four Seasons, whatever the CEOs that follow me are not going to be on my Instagram leaving comments, like they may just send me a direct email saying, oh, this was cool, I saw this, can you connect me?
00:23:54.471 --> 00:23:54.813
Right?
00:23:54.813 --> 00:23:58.971
And that's a direct sale or direct return on investment.
00:23:58.971 --> 00:24:02.209
So, again, it's always the audience.
00:24:02.209 --> 00:24:03.325
Who are you trying to reach?
00:24:03.325 --> 00:24:05.385
What's the sphere of influence?
00:24:05.385 --> 00:24:12.068
I think that's a bit more important than just, uh, like the vanity matrix, right, yeah?
00:24:13.391 --> 00:24:19.375
so, yeah, that's why I'm quite, I'm quite laid back about engagement, not engagement with followers.
00:24:19.375 --> 00:24:22.123
I'm like, if it grows, oh, that's nice, someone's following me.
00:24:22.123 --> 00:24:26.151
If it remains the same for six weeks, well, it remains the same for six weeks.
00:24:26.151 --> 00:24:27.032
I'm not Exactly.
00:24:27.032 --> 00:24:29.082
Yeah, it doesn't.
00:24:29.082 --> 00:24:30.729
What am I trying to say?
00:24:30.729 --> 00:24:37.980
Like it doesn't define me, like my whole existence is not dependent on and doesn't validate me either as an author.
00:24:38.741 --> 00:24:44.848
And that gets back to our point where you know, imagine when the algorithm always changes.
00:24:44.848 --> 00:24:48.144
I point where you know, imagine when the algorithm always changes.
00:24:48.144 --> 00:24:49.488
I I see people freaking out because it has defined fully.
00:24:49.488 --> 00:25:01.295
And I said just once you know, when it comes to friends, I always say you shouldn't swim in friends, you should surf friends.
00:25:01.295 --> 00:25:06.352
Friends are like the ocean, with riptides that can drag you in and round you.
00:25:06.352 --> 00:25:13.727
If you're soft, at least you have some control of what part of the trend you want to use and how you want to move with the trend.
00:25:13.727 --> 00:25:28.403
Because for me it's all about longevity in the industry, about staying true to your voice, maturing your voice as a storyteller so that when the ebbs and the flows come, it doesn't fully knock you out.
00:25:28.644 --> 00:25:32.234
Because you know, this is why you do the things you do.
00:25:33.077 --> 00:25:33.699
I mean it's a hard.
00:25:33.699 --> 00:25:40.369
I mean I say this creative life, it's not an easy life to pursue.
00:25:41.291 --> 00:25:44.625
Well, I know, because you know, before I was, I became a creative.
00:25:44.625 --> 00:25:48.444
I used to be in IT, I used to be a system architect and a programmer.
00:25:48.444 --> 00:25:50.671
Oh, were you, yeah.
00:25:50.730 --> 00:26:00.574
I didn't know that that's like nose diving from security and financial stability into like the murky waters of starving artist mode.
00:26:00.574 --> 00:26:02.247
So I get it.
00:26:02.247 --> 00:26:07.202
You know that was quite the swan dive, but yeah, that was my life.
00:26:07.202 --> 00:26:25.792
I used to be a system architect, um into something called GIS, which is the geographic information system, like google maps, essentially programming interactive maps, and that was my life for many years before I took that giant leap into this kind of uncertain world of creativity so, so I get it.
00:26:26.814 --> 00:26:29.726
What, what was it that made you take the leap?
00:26:29.726 --> 00:26:36.304
Because I always say that there's always some, there's always some event that causes that.
00:26:36.304 --> 00:26:39.710
It's a catalyst for the pivot in your life.
00:26:39.750 --> 00:26:43.989
No, it was very clear for me because I mean, obviously, when I was younger I loved geography, uh, writing and.
00:26:43.989 --> 00:26:49.209
But it was very clear for me because I mean, obviously, when I was younger I loved geography writing, but it was in 2002.
00:26:49.209 --> 00:26:50.523
So I'm dating myself.
00:26:50.523 --> 00:26:52.590
That's many years ago, 2002.
00:26:53.140 --> 00:26:57.192
It doesn't seem that long ago, though I'm not going to lie 2002.
00:26:57.192 --> 00:27:03.586
That was over 20 years ago I know, I know, but it doesn't feel that long.
00:27:03.948 --> 00:27:09.070
I know it's crazy, but I volunteered with an expedition race in Fiji.
00:27:09.070 --> 00:27:13.612
So I was in Fiji for three weeks with this expedition race on their web team.
00:27:13.612 --> 00:27:32.173
So my job essentially was to write stories about Fiji, about the competition, about the competitors, what was going on, and put that on the website so people around the world could follow and see what's going on, you know, and writing about the villages and the seascape and the culture and all of that.
00:27:32.173 --> 00:27:39.340
And so that was it was that moment where I was like, wait a minute, I'm writing from this incredible place.
00:27:39.340 --> 00:27:40.362
I'm writing stories.
00:27:40.362 --> 00:27:49.003
I am the eyes and the ears and the feet of the people around the world, experiencing what's going on through me.
00:27:49.003 --> 00:27:51.070
I think this is what I want to do.
00:27:51.070 --> 00:27:52.153
This is incredible.
00:27:52.153 --> 00:27:55.363
This is such a privilege to be able to do this.
00:27:55.363 --> 00:28:08.942
So I knew then in that moment that I wanted to come back and become a travel writer, and so I came back and started slowly kind of disconnecting away from the life of IT and moving into travel writing.
00:28:10.526 --> 00:28:12.470
What did you say to yourself?
00:28:12.470 --> 00:28:13.992
Or who did you have around you when?
00:28:13.992 --> 00:28:14.882
Because there were, you would.
00:28:14.882 --> 00:28:19.359
You would have had those moments when you questioned have I made the right decision?
00:28:19.359 --> 00:28:22.267
Maybe I need to go back, but how would?
00:28:22.267 --> 00:28:24.152
How did you get yourself through those moments?
00:28:27.640 --> 00:28:28.382
to go back, but how would?
00:28:28.382 --> 00:28:29.506
How did you get yourself through those moments?
00:28:29.506 --> 00:28:44.288
So I'm Nigerian and whoever it's your parents that will definitely let you know and question whether it means the right decisions, because I always say, like, especially when I became a photographer, my mom was always like remind people, you have degrees, please let them remind them.
00:28:44.288 --> 00:29:00.395
I mean, they are my biggest supporters now, but I think it's just coming, and especially being the oldest child coming from a place where, um, they advocate for stability and there's like a natural part.
00:29:00.395 --> 00:29:02.605
You know, you go to college, you do this, and then come in and say you know what?
00:29:02.605 --> 00:29:03.609
I want to go to uzbekistan and take photos.
00:29:03.630 --> 00:29:07.324
You know, you go to college, you do this, and then come in and say you know what I want to go to uzbekistan and take photos.
00:29:07.324 --> 00:29:10.151
You know, and you're like okay, and how are you going to eat?
00:29:10.151 --> 00:29:11.182
Like you know.
00:29:11.182 --> 00:29:23.869
So of course, there'll be people around you, but, like I said once, you have that unshakable belief in yourself, an audacious belief, even when you're scared, but still doing it anyway.
00:29:23.869 --> 00:29:40.741
Um, I'm just grateful to be able to do that, and I think I realized that really, really early on when I was young, that I this is what I'm supposed to be doing is is telling stories, traveling and sharing the world from my own view as well.
00:29:40.842 --> 00:29:46.394
So, yeah, yeah, so going back to storytelling, how would you describe your writing journey?
00:29:50.483 --> 00:29:53.648
I'd say it's obviously non-linear up and down.
00:29:53.648 --> 00:29:54.089
I think.
00:29:54.089 --> 00:30:07.853
Once I left IT I became a travel writer, which meant I was writing more kind of creative or narrative non-fiction, meaning just kind of what I was experiencing, all the transformational journeys.
00:30:07.853 --> 00:30:13.431
So my writing as a travel writer is quite different from my writing as a novelist.
00:30:13.431 --> 00:30:18.111
My travel writing is more literary in the way it comes across.
00:30:18.111 --> 00:30:25.634
My travel writing is more the prose is more direct and raw and it's by choice.
00:30:25.634 --> 00:30:35.653
And the reason is because my work as a travel writer is what has helped me as a novelist and the way I write.
00:30:36.375 --> 00:30:47.510
Because when I talk about going to experience a place you know for example, italy or wherever, croatia as a travel writer, I can't just tell you Croatia is beautiful, go visit it.
00:30:47.510 --> 00:30:56.865
I have to show you through words, through what I'm eating, through what I'm eating, through what I'm feeling, seeing all my senses, why Croatia is incredible and you need to go.
00:30:56.865 --> 00:30:59.772
You, as the reader, needs to deduce that from my writing.
00:30:59.772 --> 00:31:13.883
So that's what I bring into my work as a novelist and that's why my course is quite straightforward and raw, in the sense that it's just kind of describing, putting things in, putting you in the shoes of the characters, putting you in the shoes.
00:31:13.883 --> 00:31:13.883
That.
00:31:13.883 --> 00:31:24.868
It's just kind of describing, putting things in, putting you in the shoes of the characters, putting in the shoes of the characters so that you can feel and understand them, you know when you started writing your first book.
00:31:24.888 --> 00:31:26.652
So I'm talking about every mirror.
00:31:26.652 --> 00:31:27.713
She's black.
00:31:27.713 --> 00:31:31.086
How did you?
00:31:31.086 --> 00:31:38.648
I'm trying to find what way to pull it, but how did you know that this was the right story for you to tell so?
00:31:39.391 --> 00:31:49.442
when I wanted to get back into fiction writing I actually struggled because I was like I used to write really well when I was younger, but why can't I write fiction again?
00:31:49.442 --> 00:31:55.362
But then I realized, um, the stories I needed to write are closer to my own lived experience.
00:31:55.362 --> 00:32:04.907
I needed to look closer because then you've got the experience, you've got the insight, you've got just life leading you in many ways.
00:32:04.907 --> 00:32:09.103
And so which in every mirror she's black, which is about black women in Sweden.
00:32:09.103 --> 00:32:10.826
That's my lived.
00:32:10.905 --> 00:32:19.228
I'm not characters like sort of tea, just sprinkles, you know, in some of them, but I'm a Black woman in Sweden.
00:32:19.228 --> 00:32:21.201
I'm a travel writer.
00:32:21.201 --> 00:32:25.526
I spend time volunteering at a refugee center, you know, working with them.
00:32:25.526 --> 00:32:39.211
I have friends across the social economic spectrum, you know these were stories that were closer to my life and so they were easier to tease out and pull experiences.
00:32:39.420 --> 00:33:06.907
And then the way I write as a novelist is I actually spend a lot of time with the characters in my head before I actually get to writing, because I can spend four to five months just mulling, you know, creating them as people in my head, giving them characters and attributes, so that when I write the writing actually takes a shorter amount of time, because the characters can lead me where they want to go, because they are like people.
00:33:06.907 --> 00:33:10.210
I know this person isn't going to act this way in this situation, right?
00:33:10.210 --> 00:33:12.865
So that's kind of how I knew.
00:33:12.865 --> 00:33:22.101
Within, every Mournish is Black and I knew there were three themes I needed to tackle, which was career, culture and class.
00:33:22.101 --> 00:33:32.932
So once I knew those themes, then I created the characters to kind of fit those themes so Kemi for career, brittany for class, and Muna and Yasmin for culture.
00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:38.765
Carrier, brittany for class and Muna and Yasmin for culture.
00:33:38.765 --> 00:33:39.970
Listeners, it's time for a very short break.
00:33:39.970 --> 00:33:45.628
If you're enjoying this conversation with Nadine Matheson and want to help keep the podcast going, why not buy me a cup of coffee?
00:33:45.628 --> 00:33:49.582
Your support goes such a long way in keeping these conversations flowing.
00:33:49.582 --> 00:33:51.789
Just check out the link in the show notes.
00:33:51.789 --> 00:33:59.347
So you have your debut novel and it's a success like ridiculous, runaway success.
00:33:59.347 --> 00:34:03.414
What did that success of that book teach you?
00:34:06.623 --> 00:34:13.853
that success needs to be talked about in context to its struggles, right, right, because I had over 70 rejections for that book.
00:34:13.853 --> 00:34:15.335
70?
00:34:15.335 --> 00:34:16.195
70.
00:34:16.195 --> 00:34:20.106
In fact, my friends were like are there that many publishers in business?
00:34:20.106 --> 00:34:23.612
We have no idea 70.
00:34:23.632 --> 00:34:23.871
70.
00:34:25.659 --> 00:34:26.864
So we just stopped counting.
00:34:26.864 --> 00:34:28.188
We just stopped counting.
00:34:28.188 --> 00:34:29.505
So it's probably much more.
00:34:29.505 --> 00:34:35.983
And there were so many different reasons for all that that many of it were.
00:34:35.983 --> 00:34:50.728
I was centering black women in the Nordics and a lot of the editors did not want that, because the Nordics is kind of like the last bastion of whiteness, and so for me to center black women in that they were not having that right oh, so where did they want?
00:34:50.768 --> 00:34:53.273
them.
00:34:53.273 --> 00:34:57.862
It's just like no, no, no, the nordics, uh, no, alexander scott's, god is for us.
00:34:57.862 --> 00:35:01.311
You can't not put the women in there and you know and center them.
00:35:01.311 --> 00:35:03.085
So there was a lot of that.
00:35:03.085 --> 00:35:06.315
So there was a lot of that.
00:35:06.315 --> 00:35:08.800
There was like, oh, we cannot connect with this woman.
00:35:08.800 --> 00:35:15.661
The you know same people that can connect with vampires and sexy aliens and whatever couldn't connect with the women.
00:35:15.661 --> 00:35:50.262
So there was so much rejection, but I knew that it was just a gatekeeping, because I knew that the story was going to resonate, because it was a lot of people's experiences and I knew that if I could just persevere through the rejections, there was going to be one, and once that one says yes, that's why it was, because it was really like a grassroots kind of success is because people felt validated and because I stuck with those rejections, now I can write whatever story I want to write.
00:35:51.143 --> 00:35:51.764
I wasn't't.
00:35:51.764 --> 00:36:01.210
A lot of the editors wanted, some of them wanted me to maybe dilute my voice, dilute the story, make it more feel good, make it more this.
00:36:01.210 --> 00:36:05.588
And I said, no, these are people that need to.
00:36:05.588 --> 00:36:07.934
Those stories need to be told right.
00:36:07.934 --> 00:36:12.268
And so by going through that experience with the first book.
00:36:12.268 --> 00:36:17.400
I'm so grateful because now Beta Oni is exactly the book I want to write.
00:36:17.400 --> 00:36:24.887
Like everything, like there are books I just want to write, without that pressure of feeling like I need to dilute it for anybody.
00:36:26.860 --> 00:36:29.590
And Lola might have giggled because I'm just sitting there pulling faces.
00:36:29.590 --> 00:36:36.900
It's the gate, I find it so irritating.
00:36:36.900 --> 00:36:38.164
It's the gate, I find it so irritating.
00:36:38.164 --> 00:36:39.025
It's the gatekeeping.
00:36:39.025 --> 00:36:55.811
It's the telling you, the sort of you know, telling you you should be writing this particular type of story because they haven't taken the time to invest in another form of storytelling or hearing people from different places.
00:36:55.811 --> 00:37:07.813
It's taking time to hear about their stories, but, as you said, but you know, you can resonate with vampires and gargoyles easily.
00:37:07.813 --> 00:37:09.077
You don't think twice about it.
00:37:09.117 --> 00:37:21.385
Oh, we'll have another twilight but you know what also and I think that was you know, I've got quite thick skin, you know, when it comes to rejection and all of that, because you know I've been working at working as a freelancer.
00:37:21.385 --> 00:37:33.432
You have to right, yeah, but I think that was the most difficult feedback to get is that I cannot connect with your lived experience as a fellow woman or just as a like.
00:37:33.432 --> 00:37:42.521
I just can't connect with you or with those feelings, the same universal feelings, you know, of belonging, identity, of love, loss, all of those.
00:37:42.521 --> 00:37:46.170
Those are just human, based, human, yeah, feelings.
00:37:46.670 --> 00:38:05.505
But because it's wrapped up in a different package, you can't connect it's, it's so many things and it affects you differently, that form of rejection, because it's not just rejecting your book or your story, it's actually rejecting you and it's saying it's someone saying that they don't see you.
00:38:05.505 --> 00:38:08.432
It's like how can you not see me?
00:38:08.432 --> 00:38:17.547
How can you not see that we may share the same values and the same dreams and we, as you said, we have the same lived experiences.
00:38:17.547 --> 00:38:22.103
It may be in a different community, but those we can all resonate and understand.
00:38:22.103 --> 00:38:37.356
As you said, those feelings are possibly like being rejected, or mother-daughter relationships or father-daughter relationships and the relationships you have with your, with your siblings or your best friends, or going to work and feeling overlooked.
00:38:37.396 --> 00:39:14.289
It's like everyone understands that, everyone's had some kind of experience as that, but because it comes packaged differently in the sense of how you look it all, sudden it's like no, I don't think this is going to work with our readers okay, our readers and I think that's the privilege of my work as a travel writer is having spent so many time, like long periods of time, with lots of different cultures, lots of different people that's the base thing that we all want is to be listened to, to be seen, to be acknowledged, and then everything just builds up from there.
00:39:14.289 --> 00:39:23.186
When you're looking into somebody's eyes and just calling them by their name, that already says I see you, you know, even before you just take their photo, right?
00:39:23.186 --> 00:39:28.329
So I bring all of that into, I'm grateful to bring all of that work into.
00:39:28.329 --> 00:39:36.713
You know my kind of act as a novelist because of all the you know the different arts.
00:39:36.713 --> 00:39:40.527
So so, yeah, and that's what I also brought into this book as well.
00:39:40.867 --> 00:39:44.061
Uh, bitter honey you know it's such a little thing.
00:39:44.061 --> 00:39:46.628
You know I just want to be seen and I want to be heard.
00:39:46.628 --> 00:39:58.820
But it's such a big thing because if you don't feel as if you're being heard or seen, you just feel like you're just disappearing into this massive world and that your story, your place in the world is insignificant.
00:39:59.762 --> 00:40:09.226
And that's not true yes, yeah, and then also, sometimes, just wanting to be heard as seen doesn't mean I want to be validated externally.
00:40:09.226 --> 00:40:13.873
Right, and I think that's one thing I always try to communicate to people.
00:40:13.873 --> 00:40:20.097
Just because somebody wants to use their voice doesn't mean they want you to say yes, your voices are closed.
00:40:20.097 --> 00:40:21.385
It's saying you know what?
00:40:21.385 --> 00:40:26.842
I take up space, I'm allowed to take up space, I'm allowed to exist without explanation.
00:40:26.842 --> 00:40:32.791
Yeah, right, and I don't need your validation for me to exist without explanation.
00:40:32.791 --> 00:40:44.574
So there are so many levels to this and I think, right now more than ever, I think social media is helping people show up to use their voice.
00:40:44.739 --> 00:40:50.809
So there are many good things about social media as well, but I think it's the part where people still need to work on.
00:40:50.809 --> 00:40:56.481
It's the part where people still need to work on Personally.
00:40:56.481 --> 00:41:11.021
It's just always seeking the external validation that I'm not worth something if somebody else validates me and I think that's what I keep fighting against for people to see that, oh no, you're way more than that, because, remember, you're more than enough.
00:41:11.021 --> 00:41:18.893
And one thing I always say is if you keep breaking yourself into bits and pieces just to fit in in different spaces, then you're broken into pieces.
00:41:18.893 --> 00:41:22.545
You're not enough, you're not whole, you're not whole right.
00:41:22.545 --> 00:41:29.300
So you as a person, your experiences are valid, your life is valid, you're more modern enough.
00:41:29.300 --> 00:41:39.514
And if other people can see that, or if they want to, you know, see your filter, your superficial lens that's on them.
00:41:40.315 --> 00:41:40.856
That's on them.
00:41:40.856 --> 00:41:56.545
But you know what it also goes to show the importance of having a good supportive network around you, because sometimes it's hard to do that work for yourself, because it can feel like a big heavy burden on your shoulders, especially if you're just being surrounded constantly.
00:41:56.545 --> 00:42:00.507
You're hearing the nose and you can't help but internalize that.
00:42:00.507 --> 00:42:06.572
So it's so important to have people around you friends, family who can sit you down and be like this, doesn't?
00:42:06.572 --> 00:42:07.173
It matters?
00:42:07.213 --> 00:42:23.213
but it doesn't really matter and you are much more than this and just keep on going absolutely, absolutely, and I think so important that you know family, friends, but also being um kind of self-aware.
00:42:23.213 --> 00:42:34.458
You need to be able to be self-aware enough to know when people are doing this for your best interest, because nowadays, because of social media, everyone is a narcissist.
00:42:34.981 --> 00:42:43.606
Everyone that doesn't agree with me is this everyone but a lot of it is performative, though, which is like my word of the month.
00:42:43.606 --> 00:42:52.451
It's so performative and I just I get more irritated by that, but I'm like I can see through what you're doing Like where's your authenticity in it?
00:42:53.032 --> 00:43:03.202
Exactly, and also even, just even, when people actually are getting new and feedback for you, it's like no, they're jealous, no, they're this Like, so it's.
00:43:03.202 --> 00:43:09.472
You have to be able to be honest and transparent with yourself.
00:43:09.954 --> 00:43:10.135
Yeah.
00:43:10.219 --> 00:43:16.371
To say you know what, what can take back to to self-improve.
00:43:16.371 --> 00:43:17.873
You know, I am.
00:43:17.873 --> 00:43:20.248
I am in the camp of what we call.
00:43:20.248 --> 00:43:22.940
We call it the fixing the crowns behind the scenes.
00:43:22.940 --> 00:43:34.791
You know, I am one of those where if my friends are doing stuff or if I'm doing something that's out of pocket, they call me behind the scenes, they readjust my crown and then they slap me and push me back out.
00:43:34.851 --> 00:44:08.885
Right, they don't do that publicly and I think we need that support network where you have those friends or that family members that will call you in, take sense, back into you, get your crown straight and then send you back out the world has such a funny way of moving, because I literally was having this exact same conversation with my best friend yesterday and it was we're just talking about friendships in general and how, like, as you get older, it's not that you learn, but you really know which one of your friends are going to be.
00:44:08.885 --> 00:44:18.851
The ones, as you said, they'll be behind the scenes, fixing your crown, making sure the label is not sticking out the top of your dress and pushing you out there, who are ready.
00:44:18.851 --> 00:44:29.927
But then you have the friends that who may have been around you for years and years and years and years, but they're not the ones who you're going to look for support.
00:44:29.927 --> 00:44:33.371
And if they do support you, it comes.
00:44:33.371 --> 00:44:37.463
It's, it's like, it's like an exchange they're looking for.
00:44:37.963 --> 00:44:42.130
Yes, but it's transactional yeah, absolutely.
00:44:42.911 --> 00:44:55.452
You want to be around friends where you feel safe in different ways, and so this might be a weird example, but I was recently in a kind of with a group of people where I had been talking with them for about an hour.
00:44:55.452 --> 00:45:06.032
We've been laughing everything, and then I come home and I see that there was like what, like something on the side of my mouth all throughout, and not one of them said clean your mouth.
00:45:06.032 --> 00:45:19.128
As mundane as that is, that's what I mean is just there are people that'll be around you and watch you do all those things and not say a word.
00:45:19.128 --> 00:45:21.914
Yeah, you know, and so you have to be.
00:45:21.914 --> 00:45:24.186
As you get older, you know I'm older as well.
00:45:24.186 --> 00:45:25.471
I'm more discerning.
00:45:25.471 --> 00:45:30.865
My, my, my friend network is really small isn't it weird how that happens?
00:45:30.925 --> 00:45:37.088
it gets smaller yeah, it doesn't, because you just don't have time to on for bullshit anymore.
00:45:37.088 --> 00:45:39.855
You don't have time to, yeah, waste energy.
00:45:39.855 --> 00:45:42.240
You have to protect your energy.
00:45:42.240 --> 00:45:43.003
You have to.
00:45:43.003 --> 00:45:45.268
You just have.
00:45:45.268 --> 00:45:47.612
You can have friend acquaintances, absolutely.
00:45:47.612 --> 00:45:53.768
You can have so many of those, but like your close friends that know all your business, you know you can keep that quite small.
00:45:53.768 --> 00:45:57.793
I remember there was a one of my, my close friends.
00:45:57.793 --> 00:45:59.155
I was having an event.
00:45:59.155 --> 00:46:00.076
It was an exhibition.
00:46:00.076 --> 00:46:02.525
I don't think she knew I was having an exhibition.
00:46:02.525 --> 00:46:06.483
I just said come, I'm at, I'm doing this event from five to seven.
00:46:06.483 --> 00:46:07.204
So she just came.
00:46:07.204 --> 00:46:08.889
She was in the corner talking and she's like, okay, so.
00:46:08.889 --> 00:46:12.313
And then at the end she's like, okay, so, so what's going on?
00:46:12.313 --> 00:46:13.780
I'm like dude, look around, like okay, so.
00:46:13.780 --> 00:46:15.262
And then at the end she's like, okay, so, so what's going on?
00:46:15.262 --> 00:46:16.324
I'm like dude, look around.
00:46:16.324 --> 00:46:24.449
So she had no idea it was my exhibition, but she came because I said just come, yeah, I'm getting around drinking, talking, friends like why are we?
00:46:24.469 --> 00:46:24.791
why am?
00:46:24.811 --> 00:46:28.309
I here, but I was like I'm here because she called.
00:46:28.309 --> 00:46:29.534
I love it.
00:46:29.534 --> 00:46:31.199
You want those kind of friends, right?
00:46:31.199 --> 00:46:37.112
They're just like, okay, they show up and they're like, okay, what's going on, what's happening, you know.
00:46:37.112 --> 00:46:43.311
You want that kind of community that they just show up for you one of my friends, love of the pieces.
00:46:43.733 --> 00:46:52.809
When I first when not not the book I self-published, so the jigsaw man, which is obviously my crime book and she messages me.
00:46:52.809 --> 00:47:04.398
She says you know, I don't like these sort of books, you know I don't read these sort of books, but because you're my friend I will buy this book and I'm like I don't care what you do with it as long as you buy it.
00:47:04.398 --> 00:47:08.527
But that's the sort of friendship that I value.
00:47:08.547 --> 00:47:08.989
She's like.
00:47:09.429 --> 00:47:10.672
I, you know I'm not gonna read it.
00:47:10.672 --> 00:47:12.983
I'm like that's fine, that's absolutely fine.
00:47:12.983 --> 00:47:18.893
But I know you're supporting me and I know that, yeah, and I'll see her, like, share stuff about my book.
00:47:18.893 --> 00:47:21.804
I'm like I love her for that yeah, no, absolutely.
00:47:22.146 --> 00:47:32.922
And it's so funny because yesterday, um, because I just announced recently like a collaboration for in two years where we're gonna go, I'll be leading like the first women only expedition to Antarctica with like a oh really wow.
00:47:32.922 --> 00:47:32.918
So.
00:47:32.918 --> 00:47:36.889
So it's in two years where we're gonna go, I'll be leading like the first women only expedition to antarctica with like a wow so.
00:47:36.889 --> 00:47:38.313
So it's in two years, you should come.
00:47:38.313 --> 00:47:39.355
You're like, you're gonna love it.
00:47:39.355 --> 00:47:41.003
I'll be honest.
00:47:41.003 --> 00:47:42.045
No, I don't know.
00:47:42.045 --> 00:47:45.052
No, I think you'll love it, but what?
00:47:45.152 --> 00:47:51.168
But the point I was trying to say is like a friend slid into my dms and said is it on my bucket list?
00:47:51.168 --> 00:47:53.672
No, is it because?
00:47:53.672 --> 00:47:55.554
But you're gonna be there, so I'll come.
00:47:55.554 --> 00:47:56.983
Yes, you know.
00:47:56.983 --> 00:48:03.983
So it's one of those things like no, I don't need to be there, but but because you ask you and I will, you know.
00:48:03.983 --> 00:48:09.221
So it's it's kind of the same thing you're seeing where they will show up for you.
00:48:09.221 --> 00:48:21.465
And also, we also need to be gracious with our friends, like we don't have to expect our friends to do everything, so like we have, you know, friends that will say, well, you're not liking my post, you're not engaging, you're not doing this.
00:48:21.465 --> 00:48:22.971
Well, it has to also make sense.
00:48:22.971 --> 00:48:30.059
I can support you in different ways, right, so we also need to figure out what's the best way.
00:48:30.059 --> 00:48:34.221
Our friends want to be supported and support them that way and likewise.
00:48:36.367 --> 00:48:37.188
I just think it's so.
00:48:37.188 --> 00:48:45.748
I just think it's so true because I sometimes the support I need it's not you liking every single post on Instagram.
00:48:45.748 --> 00:48:50.061
Sometimes the support I need might just be I'm texting you because I haven't heard from you.
00:48:50.061 --> 00:48:52.123
Are you alive?
00:48:52.123 --> 00:48:53.204
Have you eaten?
00:48:53.204 --> 00:48:54.865
What's going on?
00:48:55.425 --> 00:48:58.248
But also opening the door.
00:48:58.248 --> 00:49:11.396
I have a lot of friends that have access to doors or rooms that probably I need to be in, yeah, but they like everything, they share everything and I'm like actually just open the door.
00:49:11.396 --> 00:49:14.943
They share everything and I'm like actually just open the door and that's it.
00:49:14.943 --> 00:49:20.469
For me, I think, means a lot more sometimes than just the performative.
00:49:20.469 --> 00:49:27.376
See, I'm there publicly for you when you can be the one to actually lift the load off my back.
00:49:27.376 --> 00:49:38.947
And that's one of the things I write a lot about, or even talk about, is, if I'm not doing something publicly in a performative way, what am I doing behind the scenes?
00:49:38.947 --> 00:49:42.481
That's making more of an impact in the person's life.
00:49:42.481 --> 00:49:44.867
Have I just introduced them to the editor?
00:49:44.867 --> 00:49:45.889
Have I just done this?
00:49:45.889 --> 00:49:50.867
That's going to make it easier for them than for me to just be publicly saying, oh, I like this.
00:49:50.867 --> 00:49:55.047
So those are the things that are always in my head, that I think about as well.
00:49:55.719 --> 00:50:04.231
I think it's another way of asking, like how can I be of service Not only to myself, but to my friends and the people I care about?
00:50:05.521 --> 00:50:08.431
Yeah, what's the best way?
00:50:08.431 --> 00:50:16.673
And you know, like, the older I get, the more I realize support comes in different ways.
00:50:16.673 --> 00:50:21.411
How you, how you can truly support you know, just comes in really different ways.
00:50:21.672 --> 00:50:34.344
So before I go on and ask you about bit of honey, lola, as I said, as I was trawling through your website because you have a beautiful website as well it's not even Thank you you do.
00:50:34.344 --> 00:50:35.326
It's stunning.
00:50:35.326 --> 00:50:37.869
I was like this is so good, you could spend all day on here.
00:50:37.869 --> 00:50:41.873
But when I was trawling through your website, I was looking at your non-fiction book.
00:50:41.873 --> 00:50:43.594
Have I pronounced it right?
00:50:43.594 --> 00:50:43.976
Probably not.
00:50:43.976 --> 00:50:47.621
Is it Lagom, lagom, lagom, lagom?
00:50:47.621 --> 00:50:50.007
Yeah, the swedish secret of living well.
00:50:50.007 --> 00:50:51.690
So I had a question how do you live well?
00:50:52.632 --> 00:50:53.273
how do I live?
00:50:53.273 --> 00:51:01.375
Well, yeah, I mind my business and drink my water that should be on a t-shirt.
00:51:01.454 --> 00:51:05.045
Mind my business and drink my water exactly no.
00:51:05.065 --> 00:51:06.467
But how do I live well?
00:51:06.467 --> 00:51:12.550
So one of the things that I love is because I'm a culture person, I love culture.
00:51:12.550 --> 00:51:14.840
I love getting beneath the nuances of culture.
00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:22.503
So I've taken the best of all the cultures that make up my life to create my own super culture right.
00:51:22.503 --> 00:51:37.402
So I've taken the vibrancy of being Nigerian with the ambitiousness of being American, with the work-life balance of being Swedish, to create my own life on what it feels like to live well, right.
00:51:37.402 --> 00:51:47.755
So how I live well is making sure that I am staying true to my craft, to my heart, to making sure I'm making space for that to my loved ones.
00:51:47.755 --> 00:51:58.043
Making sure I'm spending time with them, traveling, eating good food, making sure that I honor my feelings, whatever I'm feeling, in any situation.
00:51:58.043 --> 00:52:09.820
You know I'm quite an idealist, I really am an idealist and I think it gets me in trouble all the time but also making sure that that's different than toxic positivity.
00:52:09.820 --> 00:52:19.123
Making sure there's you know there's a clear difference between that, but honestly it's in the everyday.
00:52:19.364 --> 00:52:22.230
I always say I don't have a long to-do list.
00:52:22.230 --> 00:52:24.893
I actually have just tasks for the day.
00:52:24.893 --> 00:52:35.918
I don't keep a to-do list because if something is due in December, then why is it on my to-do list if I don't have to start looking at it until November?
00:52:35.918 --> 00:52:40.846
It's just giving me stress right now.
00:52:40.846 --> 00:52:41.829
You see, do not keep to the list.
00:52:41.829 --> 00:52:45.219
I just keep kind of like microscopic views of okay, this is what I'm doing this day or this week, that's it.
00:52:45.219 --> 00:52:50.226
So that also makes me breathe, gives me room to breathe.
00:52:50.226 --> 00:52:54.733
So in a sense that's kind of what I do is curating the life that works just for me.
00:52:54.733 --> 00:52:56.938
I am not a big rubbernecker.
00:52:56.938 --> 00:52:59.744
I'm not looking at everybody else's life.
00:52:59.744 --> 00:53:07.344
I can applaud, I can look, I can get inspired, but then I'm not making it doubt my own life or my own choices.
00:53:07.344 --> 00:53:20.233
I own my choices, you know, and then just live the life that I've kind of been given and I've curated and do the best I can within it.
00:53:21.440 --> 00:53:21.742
Okay.
00:53:21.742 --> 00:53:39.871
So I've got another question before I go into a bit of honey, and this comes from not stalking around your website, but you know, just perusing your website so I saw that you have you always have a focus word for the year and that your focus word for 2025 is manifest.
00:53:39.871 --> 00:53:43.403
But then you also said you're manifesting the soft life.
00:53:43.403 --> 00:54:09.585
So the soft life era, and I think because I think I kind of wrote about this last month, about black women just wanting to live their soft life and not wanting, or yeah, just trying to escape the perception that we always have to be strong and that life is always hard we just want to live a nice soft life and post our pots in our cooking and what's growing in our gardens.
00:54:09.585 --> 00:54:11.871
So how is your soft life?
00:54:13.240 --> 00:54:14.402
it could be much, much softer.
00:54:14.402 --> 00:54:16.864
It could be much, it could be much, much softer.
00:54:16.864 --> 00:54:19.588
It could be much softer, it could be much softer.
00:54:19.588 --> 00:54:39.688
But it's getting better in the sense that I am honoring my boundaries, I am saying no more, I'm not having to over-explain anymore of why I make the decisions I make.
00:54:39.688 --> 00:54:49.889
I'm curating a lot more in terms of if this doesn't feel aligned with my purpose or passion, then I can support from afar.
00:54:49.889 --> 00:54:52.460
I don't have to be in everybody's business or in every space.
00:54:52.460 --> 00:54:54.061
I don't have to have an opinion on everything.
00:54:54.061 --> 00:54:57.405
I don't have to have an opinion on everything.
00:54:57.405 --> 00:54:58.666
Yeah, you know.
00:54:58.666 --> 00:55:01.807
So in a sense it's getting softer.
00:55:01.807 --> 00:55:08.092
You know we need the finances to match the soft life Proper, proper soft life.
00:55:08.092 --> 00:55:13.856
Then I'll be like, yes, so that's where we're getting to, waiting for that to fully match.
00:55:18.219 --> 00:55:20.724
I think it goes back, though, to what we were saying in the beginning about intention.
00:55:20.724 --> 00:55:34.934
It's like setting the boundaries also matches with having that intentional life, and if you're not intentional about what you want and where you want to go, you're going to find it a lot harder to establish the boundaries around you.
00:55:36.001 --> 00:55:37.460
Yeah, absolutely Absolutely.
00:55:37.460 --> 00:55:41.681
So that's what I know for myself and for others as well.
00:55:41.681 --> 00:55:44.628
I think that's, um the dedication of the book.
00:55:44.628 --> 00:56:03.474
You know, for those who have never known rest, may the soft light find you soon you know is that it's okay to be taken care of and to be treated with tenderness, because I think with black women we do not get treated with the tenderness that same white women get easily afforded once they cry.
00:56:03.474 --> 00:56:19.630
So I think that is one of the things that I want for us to is that we need to be treated with care, we need to be treated respectfully, we need to be taken care of because we took a break.
00:56:19.630 --> 00:56:25.847
One of my favorite quotes is a Swedish proverb that says the deepest well can also be drained.
00:56:25.847 --> 00:56:33.132
In Swedish it goes the deepest well can also be drained.
00:56:33.132 --> 00:56:42.762
Black women are pretty much the deepest well of emotions, of resilience in society, so can be entered out someday.
00:56:42.762 --> 00:56:46.192
So we need to be taken care of in every single way.
00:56:46.192 --> 00:56:49.099
So that is the era of my life right now.
00:56:49.159 --> 00:57:00.755
I'm in the stage of my life that I'm in right now you know I was gonna say say that it goes back to how black women are perceived.
00:57:00.755 --> 00:57:02.523
I said that we are.
00:57:02.523 --> 00:57:06.603
We can handle pressure and you know you're strong.
00:57:06.603 --> 00:57:08.724
You're a strong black woman, so you can handle the pressure.
00:57:08.724 --> 00:57:16.889
You can deal with the hard discussions and the hard circumstances and you're just supposed to just keep moving through it.
00:57:16.889 --> 00:57:21.922
But you know, pressure builds like a pressure cooker.
00:57:21.922 --> 00:57:24.005
Yeah, the top will explode.
00:57:24.005 --> 00:57:27.251
Yeah, it will explode at one point of course, and we can.
00:57:27.934 --> 00:57:33.130
The thing is that we need rest to recover and I think society says we don't deserve rest.
00:57:33.130 --> 00:57:39.570
You know, and I think of, for example, kamala harris is in a resting period right now and people are saying you don't deserve rest.
00:57:39.570 --> 00:57:40.090
Where are you?
00:57:40.090 --> 00:57:40.572
Come out?
00:57:40.572 --> 00:57:41.634
She deserves rest.
00:57:42.159 --> 00:57:43.646
But she can also handle the pressure.
00:57:44.460 --> 00:57:49.382
So that's what I mean is, of course, we will always be able to handle the pressure.
00:57:49.382 --> 00:58:01.148
We will always be able, and I think, in many lifetimes, if I came back, you know, if I could choose, I always want to come back as a black woman, because that is the epitome of strength.
00:58:01.148 --> 00:58:08.704
But we need rest, we need to replenish, we need to be taken care of, we need to be um.
00:58:08.704 --> 00:58:14.434
We can't be everybody's savings, so so that's so.
00:58:14.434 --> 00:58:17.425
That's what I mean okay.
00:58:17.445 --> 00:58:26.349
So I'm gonna ask Lola would you like to tell the listeners of the conversation about your third novel, bitter Honey?
00:58:30.483 --> 00:58:33.331
I'll start by saying it's actually my favorite of the three so far.
00:58:33.331 --> 00:58:35.559
Yeah, absolutely love the story.
00:58:35.559 --> 00:58:38.610
It's about a mother, nancy, and a daughter, tina.
00:58:38.610 --> 00:58:39.809
It's a dwarf pulled into kind of points.
00:58:39.809 --> 00:58:51.425
Her daughter Tina it's a duel pulled into kind of points of views with Nancy in the 70s and 80s, when she first moved from Gambia to Sweden and her life maybe got derailed.
00:58:51.425 --> 00:58:52.548
But that's all I'm going to say.
00:58:52.548 --> 00:59:03.605
And then Tina in the early 2000s, who is a pop star representing Sweden, and the story is on Tina's side who gets to be Swedish?
00:59:03.605 --> 00:59:06.880
Who gets to be, who gets to represent the country?
00:59:06.880 --> 00:59:08.005
Are you enough?
00:59:08.005 --> 00:59:14.266
And then with Nancy, what do you do when your life gets derailed and how do you get back on track?
00:59:14.266 --> 00:59:35.976
And so there are so many themes and issues in this book, but ultimately it's a story about resilience, about empowerment, about if life doesn't go the way you want, how can you pick up the pieces and then still make a beautiful life for yourself.
00:59:37.101 --> 00:59:39.188
Okay, I've got two questions to follow on from your book.
00:59:46.885 --> 00:59:47.807
Did you face any challenges in writing?
00:59:47.807 --> 01:00:01.963
Bitter honey, there's a lot of historical fiction, so the challenges was more making sure I was doing proper research and then weaving it into the book, you know, in a way that felt organic, you know, while talking about really serious, felt organic, you know, while talking about really serious issues.
01:00:01.963 --> 01:00:05.773
I mean, I talk about nationalism and drug addiction and all of that.
01:00:05.773 --> 01:00:26.947
So that was where more the challenges were aligned in terms of making sure I was doing whatever, I was adding into the book justice and historical reference, so that it didn't overpower the book but actually made the book richer and if you could spend an afternoon with any of your characters in bitter honey, whom would you choose and why?
01:00:29.101 --> 01:00:34.588
I actually choose, um, the late prime minister olaf palmer.
01:00:34.588 --> 01:00:39.153
So the swedish prime minister olaf palmer, so the Swedish Prime Minister Olof Palme.
01:00:39.153 --> 01:00:44.228
He was assassinated, he was a real person and it goes up in the book.
01:00:44.228 --> 01:01:01.351
So that is the person I would actually want to sit down with because I think he had a vision for what he wanted the country to kind of be in terms of integration and people feeling like they belong, you know.
01:01:01.351 --> 01:01:06.440
So that would be somebody I would love to sit, because I know my other characters so well.
01:01:06.440 --> 01:01:08.949
I know Nancy so well, I know Tina so well.
01:01:08.949 --> 01:01:14.244
They lived in my head for months, actually, yes, because they appear in other books.
01:01:14.244 --> 01:01:22.496
So I think that's one person I would love to sit with to to get his view.
01:01:26.550 --> 01:01:26.811
I always.
01:01:26.811 --> 01:01:35.771
I think this is like one of my favorite questions to ask now in the podcast, because I always find that the answer is never one of the main characters in the book.
01:01:35.771 --> 01:01:36.672
It's always.
01:01:36.672 --> 01:01:40.219
It's always someone different, some minor character, someone who's just passing through.
01:01:42.463 --> 01:01:43.646
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
01:01:43.646 --> 01:01:50.126
So that's the person I'll probably want to sit with and talk to, because I know the other character so well.
01:01:50.126 --> 01:02:12.128
I know Lash so well because he is such a picture of most men you know, and I don't want to give anything away, but that's the one character that I've been seeing all the reaction videos so far and they're like I love it.
01:02:12.168 --> 01:02:16.320
When you get a good reaction video to a character, you're like you've done your job.
01:02:16.320 --> 01:02:19.034
When you get such a visible reaction, you've done your job when you get such a visceral reaction.
01:02:19.094 --> 01:02:20.661
You've done your job as a writer.
01:02:20.661 --> 01:02:25.802
It's incredible, it's incredible, it's incredible and I think I think for an author, it's just the best feeling.
01:02:25.802 --> 01:02:32.847
Yeah, and I always tell people that I don't want people to go away from my books just focusing on my prose.
01:02:32.847 --> 01:02:34.675
That's why I write the way I write.
01:02:34.675 --> 01:02:37.603
It's very simple, straightforward, direct, raw prose.
01:02:37.603 --> 01:02:40.983
I don't want people to go back and say, oh my goodness, my last prose.
01:02:40.983 --> 01:02:44.411
No, no, I want them to, at the end of the book, say I want a fighter.
01:02:44.411 --> 01:02:48.793
I took the book and threw it across the room like what the heck that's?
01:02:48.833 --> 01:03:11.969
what I want you want to create you want to create emotion, you want that, yes, yes, you know, because that's what makes us begin to see each other, because then you see the people as real people and then you can connect their stories to other real people that you see, and then it can you know, it starts to create that kind of connection.
01:03:13.320 --> 01:03:14.967
OK, we've got your last set of questions.
01:03:14.967 --> 01:03:18.849
Now, lola, are you an introvert or extrovert, or a hybrid of the two?
01:03:20.880 --> 01:03:22.001
Definitely a hybrid of the two.
01:03:22.001 --> 01:03:23.704
Definitely a hybrid of the two.
01:03:23.704 --> 01:03:29.380
Um, I love being around people because of energy and because I'm you know, I work as a travel writer.
01:03:29.380 --> 01:03:46.344
I love cultural connection, I want people to feel seen and I just, I think I'm a natural um just being around people, but then I have to recharge so I'm, I go away for long stretches of time.
01:03:46.344 --> 01:04:03.563
I'm an info that that way, that's how I do my best work, that's how, even when I'm struggling and I'm just, I lock myself away, I'm gone because, um, people also drain energy, because, um, people also drain energy.
01:04:03.563 --> 01:04:04.847
Yeah, they just drain energy, right?
01:04:04.847 --> 01:04:04.907
So?
01:04:04.907 --> 01:04:11.726
So that's some kind of a hybrid of both, a little bit more on the introvert side, but but definitely like I'm around people and and give them my energy as well.
01:04:11.927 --> 01:04:24.545
So this isn't on the list, the questions, but you know, when you're traveling as a photographer, do you find that people are more open to your presence because you are a photographer?
01:04:24.545 --> 01:04:26.509
Is that?
01:04:27.070 --> 01:04:32.929
no, on the contrary, they are open to how you carry yourself and present yourself.
01:04:32.929 --> 01:04:42.333
Because when you go as a photographer, people can immediately tell if the exchange is about them or about what you want.
01:04:42.333 --> 01:04:53.432
And I always tell people that if you photograph people, the minute you ask someone can I take your photo, it's no longer about what you want, but what they are willing to give you of themselves.
01:04:53.432 --> 01:04:59.891
So that needs to come across in your energy, as it's OK for them to reject you.
01:04:59.891 --> 01:05:14.422
You are the one trying to get something and so they can say yes or no, and then people can just easily pick that up and then just really not even calling somebody by their name yeah, already starts breaking down barriers because you see them.
01:05:14.422 --> 01:05:23.351
So if I'm just gonna see somebody, just ask what's your name and you call them by their name many times, that alone already starts to break down barriers.
01:05:23.351 --> 01:05:25.460
Yeah, so it's all about disposition.
01:05:26.641 --> 01:05:34.181
Really really is more about disposition, okay so what challenge or experience good or bad in your life shaped you the most?
01:05:37.786 --> 01:05:38.907
good or bad.
01:05:38.907 --> 01:05:44.394
So many incredible moments, you know I mean from having my kids.
01:05:44.394 --> 01:06:03.530
That, and my kids are, you know, born here, so they are swedish in a sense, but they are also mixed, and so seeing the world through their eyes and seeing the new challenges they have to face, that opened my eyes to a lot.
01:06:03.530 --> 01:06:15.088
That's why I do what I do actually, is to add these conversations for their sake, so that the soil is fertile enough for them to thrive, so they feel like they are at home in their own country.
01:06:15.088 --> 01:06:17.443
So there's that.
01:06:17.684 --> 01:06:21.460
But also, uh, recently getting divorced as well.
01:06:21.460 --> 01:06:30.422
You know it was, I indicated it, but not because for really bad reasons, but for when we stop evolving in the same direction.
01:06:30.422 --> 01:06:42.076
So sometimes the life you wanted is in the life um you got, or maybe this is the path life was taking you, and then you get derailed.
01:06:42.076 --> 01:06:43.847
So how do you come back from that?
01:06:43.847 --> 01:06:49.905
So writing Bitter Honey was also therapeutic for me in a sense, even though Nancy's story is not my story.
01:06:49.905 --> 01:06:53.193
It's about what if life doesn't go the way you planned.
01:06:53.193 --> 01:07:03.806
How do you come back from that and then create, get back on track and then create the life that's still meaningful and closer to where you're supposed to be.
01:07:03.806 --> 01:07:06.331
So so, yeah, there's so many experiences.
01:07:06.331 --> 01:07:16.425
I'll say just those two are really quite significant having my kids, which opens me to this whole new challenges of belonging and identity, and then getting divorced.
01:07:16.425 --> 01:07:21.561
That just says, once life doesn't pan out the way you want, how can you then create?
01:07:21.561 --> 01:07:25.028
Get back on track and create something, maybe even more beautiful?
01:07:25.771 --> 01:07:35.704
yeah, so if you could go back to when you were 25 years old and give yourself one piece of advice, what would it be.
01:07:35.784 --> 01:07:42.474
I just click because I mean, really I actually when I was done with high school.
01:07:42.474 --> 01:07:54.402
I was done with high school at 15 and started college at 16 and got my first degree at 19 and then, oh wow, yes, and I just kept working in the corporate world.
01:07:54.402 --> 01:07:56.786
I got a master's somewhere along the way.
01:07:56.786 --> 01:08:05.509
So my whole life in my 20s was just corporate, senior programmer stuff, and I wasn't plain and I wasn't wild.
01:08:05.509 --> 01:08:20.440
And I think if I could go back to 25, I would say you have time, you don't need to feel like okay, what is taking like, just live your life, just enjoy yourself and you don't have to be perfect all the time.
01:08:20.440 --> 01:08:28.484
That's what I would have told my 25 year old, because my 25 year old was living like a 45 year old woman in a corporate c-suite.
01:08:29.064 --> 01:08:36.984
So, like I try not to have any regrets, I don't think I have regrets, but I do.
01:08:36.984 --> 01:08:44.846
If I could go back, I wish that I'd taken a year off in my 20s after uni.
01:08:44.846 --> 01:08:51.487
Like I wish I'd taken a year off and just, yeah, just did any anything.
01:08:51.487 --> 01:09:07.668
Because I did something similar in the sense of I, you know, did, went to school and then got my, did your GCSE, did my A-levels, went to uni, got my degree, got my master's, got my postgraduate diploma in law, did another.
01:09:07.668 --> 01:09:08.792
Yeah, did I do my mark?
01:09:08.792 --> 01:09:15.784
No, then did law school and then I'd qualified and then it was work and I never.
01:09:15.784 --> 01:09:19.487
And between that I said I wish I'd taken a year off.
01:09:19.487 --> 01:09:20.287
That's the only yeah.
01:09:20.287 --> 01:09:22.430
I wish I'd done that just for me.
01:09:22.430 --> 01:09:23.911
Yeah, absolutely.
01:09:23.970 --> 01:09:27.193
And remember those pressures at that age were mostly external.
01:09:27.193 --> 01:09:40.389
I don't think if it had come from us fully we probably would have been like but there's always the pressure of maybe family or this or society or what you're supposed to be doing.
01:09:40.389 --> 01:09:43.840
So those additional things also add, you know, to that feeling.
01:09:43.840 --> 01:09:55.033
But I think if we were just left up to our own devices and didn't care at that age what anybody thought, I think we would have done the things we really wanted to do at that age.
01:09:56.662 --> 01:10:07.211
So, that's one of the things I'm trying to instill in my, in my two kids is you know, there's no rush um, live life on your own terms and don't rush.
01:10:07.211 --> 01:10:09.943
I don't want to pressure you, you know.
01:10:09.943 --> 01:10:16.963
So they can fully become like self-actualized and self-realized without that external pressure.
01:10:17.185 --> 01:10:19.090
So okay, all right, lola.
01:10:19.090 --> 01:10:22.199
What is your non-writing tip for writers?
01:10:24.966 --> 01:10:31.068
writing tip for writers is switch medium if you can.
01:10:31.068 --> 01:10:34.756
And what I say is because I can switch medium.
01:10:34.756 --> 01:10:46.832
If I'm stuck and I'm having like writer's block, I just forget it and I do other things, because other things open up a tap of creativity that lets me get back to the writing.
01:10:46.832 --> 01:10:58.984
So if you're kind of stuck, my non-writing tip will be just forget it and go play in the sun, go do other things like go, do you have any other hobbies?
01:10:58.984 --> 01:11:04.213
Go do that, because that's what actually then revives and gets you writing again.
01:11:04.213 --> 01:11:10.313
Yeah and I say this with experience, because I do all these different things right.
01:11:10.313 --> 01:11:16.109
So if I'm stuck with writing, I forget it, I go do photography for like three months.
01:11:16.109 --> 01:11:21.601
That starts the creativity again and get back to the, to the writing.
01:11:21.601 --> 01:11:22.042
So that's.
01:11:22.042 --> 01:11:26.578
I don't know if that's the exact answer you need, but that is a non-writing tip.
01:11:26.680 --> 01:11:30.698
You know that is, yeah, it's a non-writing tip, it definitely is a non-writing tip.
01:11:30.698 --> 01:11:33.283
And finally, yeah, definitely, I think.
01:11:33.283 --> 01:11:42.847
I think that's 100% good advice do something else, take yourself away from it, gives you it, allows you to reset, yes, okay.
01:11:42.847 --> 01:11:49.350
So finally, lola, where can listeners because I've talked about your beautiful website, but where can listeners of the conversation find you online?
01:11:51.728 --> 01:11:55.199
it's so weird because when you say google me, it sounds so pretentious.
01:11:56.362 --> 01:12:00.251
But it's just what people have to do.
01:12:00.371 --> 01:12:06.953
They need to google you because it's like just google me, I have this.
01:12:06.953 --> 01:12:07.734
No, it doesn't.
01:12:07.734 --> 01:12:11.804
That's not how I wanted to come across but honestly I'm easy to find.
01:12:11.804 --> 01:12:20.309
It's just lola akimade on most of the social media outlets and my, you know, portfolio is at akimadecom.
01:12:20.309 --> 01:12:22.542
That links up to all the other things I do.
01:12:22.542 --> 01:12:25.507
So I'm quite easy to to find.
01:12:25.507 --> 01:12:31.387
You know, once you find my social media, then you can get to my mailing list and all of that and and all my business out there.
01:12:31.387 --> 01:12:33.252
So just google her.
01:12:36.686 --> 01:12:39.592
I'm saying that in like the most humble, non-pretentious way.
01:12:44.399 --> 01:12:44.822
Lola.
01:12:44.822 --> 01:12:47.283
That just leads me to say Loka Akumadi.
01:12:47.283 --> 01:12:49.666
Thank you so much for being part of the conversation.
01:12:49.666 --> 01:12:51.985
Thank you, the pleasure was mine.
01:12:51.985 --> 01:12:52.729
Thank you so much.
01:12:52.729 --> 01:12:56.969
Thank you so much for listening to today's conversation with Nadine Matheson.
01:12:56.969 --> 01:12:59.046
I hope you enjoyed it as much as I did.
01:12:59.046 --> 01:13:04.487
Be sure to tune in every Tuesday for a brand new episode featuring more amazing guests.
01:13:04.487 --> 01:13:07.744
Don't forget to like, subscribe and leave a review.
01:13:07.744 --> 01:13:15.733
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01:13:15.733 --> 01:13:25.014
The links are in the show notes and if you'd love to join the conversation as a guest, feel free to send an email to theconversationatnadiemaffersoncom.
01:13:25.014 --> 01:13:29.210
Thanks again for your support and I'll catch you next time.