B2B CMO - 009 - Chris Koehler - Full Episode
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Jon Miller: [00:00:05] [00:00:10] [00:00:15] [00:00:20] Hello and welcome to today's [00:00:25] episode of the B2B CMO Project Podcast. [00:00:30] My guest today has spent more than 25 years figuring out how marketing [00:00:35] actually works, not just in theory, but inside companies like E-Trade, Adobe in Box. [00:00:40] He came up through the analytics and product side, and today he's the Chief [00:00:45] Marketing Officer at Twilio, the platform for conversations in the AI era. [00:00:50] And lately he's been chasing a question I happen to care a lot about what happens to [00:00:55] discovery, to personalization, and to the CMOs mandate itself in the [00:01:00] age of ai.
Jon Miller: Chris Koehler, welcome to the show. I.
Chris Koehler: Jon, great to [00:01:05] be here and I don't think I've figured out marketing. It seems like it keeps changing, uh, constantly [00:01:10] for us, but I am doing my best.
Jon Miller: Huh, that is a really good point. I thought I had it figured [00:01:15] out. Uh, I wrote the playbook a couple years ago, but it turns out apparently that doesn't work anymore either. [00:01:20] So, uh, perhaps the key is just staying on our toes.
Chris Koehler: I, I [00:01:25] think that is, uh, you know, staying nimble is really, really important in this day and age for sure.
Jon Miller: [00:01:30] Well, let's begin just by getting to know you a little bit. Um, every good, uh, [00:01:35] superhero story has an origin, uh, and I wanna know like, what's, so what's your [00:01:40] origin? How did you, you know, become Chris Koehler of the CMO of Twilio? [00:01:45] I.
Chris Koehler: Man, that's probably a long story. But, [00:01:50] um, you know, I, I've always sort of liked the, the craft of [00:01:55] marketing, but I probably. I probably thought about it when I was younger, more around sort of the human [00:02:00] psychology and, and. Uh, just brands in general. And, [00:02:05] um, I grew up, we talked a little bit about this. I grew up in, uh, in both [00:02:10] Florida when I was very young.
Chris Koehler: Um, I, I was lucky enough to live in [00:02:15] Orlando and watch a lot of the space shuttles. We could talk about wanting to be an astronaut and know that's, that was one [00:02:20] of your childhood dreams as well. Um, and then I grew up in rural New Hampshire. [00:02:25] And, uh, you know, I never thought, you know, quite frankly, I was gonna be working in tech.
Chris Koehler: [00:02:30] Um, I, I thought, well, if I am, you know, I, I like sort of fun and [00:02:35] adventure. I should be an astronaut or I should be a fighter pilot and, you know, [00:02:40] but as I went to school and learned over time, sort of gravitated towards this [00:02:45] notion of consumer behavior. And, uh, it always sort of fast [00:02:50] fascinated me why people do certain things, why people buy certain things, why brands are, you know, [00:02:55] more valuable than others.
Chris Koehler: That's probably why I ended up marrying a psychologist. Uh, you [00:03:00] know, we can, we can geek out on sort of human behavior on that front. Um, but, you [00:03:05] know, I spent sort of my, my career back and forth on. Different [00:03:10] aspects of date, be it data driven to understanding, [00:03:15] uh, the craft of marketing to being on the vendor side for many, many years.
Chris Koehler: You know, spent [00:03:20] many years at Adobe, you know, helping build out, um, sort of the art and science, what we talked [00:03:25] about for a long time of marketing. Um, and my first like [00:03:30] real, I would say, operator role. At any, at any scale, I'd done it at [00:03:35] a startup was at Box. And, um, you know, I was lucky enough to, to step [00:03:40] into the CMO shoes.
Chris Koehler: I know Tricia was on this, uh, on this podcast, um, a little [00:03:45] while ago and she was one of my calls when I was leaving, uh, saying, Hey, you know, I think you'd be [00:03:50] great at Box. Um, and, um. You know, I've been lucky enough to [00:03:55] sort of play in the, you know, on the customer side and the product side, a bit of a [00:04:00] generalist at heart, but always coming back to the notion of like, how, what, what are [00:04:05] the, what are the facets of human behavior and how can I shape our story, our brand, our [00:04:10] narrative, uh, to ensure that, uh, we're, we're helping drive the most value, right?
Chris Koehler: [00:04:15] For the company.
Jon Miller: Cool.
Chris Koehler: I'm not sure that's superhero worthy, but you know, I, [00:04:20] Hey, life's pretty good.
Jon Miller: understanding the customer should be a superpower. so yeah. [00:04:25] as you said, I wanted to be a astronaut too. I was in the Silvera patrol, thought I [00:04:30] might go get my pilot's license and all that kind of stuff. For me, the, the, the, [00:04:35] the fatal flaw was I had terrible vision and I realized that I would never be able [00:04:40] to sort of actually retrieve those genes with the, with the eyesight that I had.
Jon Miller: So.
Chris Koehler: Yeah, [00:04:45] I mean, I, my, my dad, uh, was in the FA, a, growing, you know, so I grew up around a lot [00:04:50] of airplanes and, uh. But I guess maybe I never had enough money [00:04:55] to get my pilot's license and move down that path. So, you know, that was probably killed my dream [00:05:00] and, and quite frankly, I wasn't ready to go into the military to learn that way.
Chris Koehler: So I. ended up in marketing, [00:05:05] you
Jon Miller: I was saving up for, you know, money to get my own pilot's license and all that kind of [00:05:10] stuff. And, and when I, when I didn't do that, I put all the money and bought a really high-end Macintosh, [00:05:15] uh, and got into design and things like that instead. So we all have our [00:05:20] crazy path to where we, where we get to.
Chris Koehler: I think it served you well, um, at the end of the day.
Jon Miller: [00:05:25] Yep. Um, okay, so, so last just question, trying to get to know you. I'd like to, you know, [00:05:30] talk about, you know, what's your five to nine IE you know, what's your passion outside of [00:05:35] work?
Chris Koehler: uh, for anyone that knows me, like I'm pretty crazy, [00:05:40] like active, you know, individual in our family, like we. We like to do a [00:05:45] lot of things. Um, we are big skiers, golfers, hikers, uh, [00:05:50] travel. We love to travel. Um, and so for me, anything getting out, being [00:05:55] outdoors, being active, learning and, and digging into new things, like that's, [00:06:00] that's ultimately, you know, what my family sort of prides ourself on.
Chris Koehler: Uh, so I [00:06:05] think that's a big one. And then. Just learning, right? We, we have this motto of like, always [00:06:10] keep learning in our family, and so always trying to figure stuff out and learn and, and just get, [00:06:15] you know, 1% better, um, all the time.
Jon Miller: All right. That sounds good. [00:06:20] So, you know, as a, as a segue, you know, this is the B2B CMO project [00:06:25] podcast. Um, you know, I'll, I'll let you in on something. You know, when you and I [00:06:30] talked, gosh, like. More than a year ago. You know, one of the things that you had [00:06:35] said at the time was you didn't really feel like other CMO communities felt like your [00:06:40] peers.
Jon Miller: You know, that, that either they were smaller companies wrestling with different [00:06:45] problems, or they were big companies, but, but not with B2B problems. [00:06:50] Um, and that stuck with me and, and a hundred percent true. That is a big part of what [00:06:55] pushed me to help try to start. This B2B CMO project, you know? So, so [00:07:00] in a way you're partly to, to blame or get some credit for all this, you know, what, what, what [00:07:05] were you looking for that you felt was, was, was missing from other B2B [00:07:10] communities?
Chris Koehler: I mean, I think, you know, I'll give you an example of [00:07:15] in times of crisis, right? Especially when you're at the top of whatever [00:07:20] profession in any organization, everyone's looking to you for the answers. [00:07:25] In, in many of those cases, the reality is you don't have the answer, but you don't want to say, well, well, [00:07:30] I can't look across the aisle and say, Hey, my head of sales, what should I be thinking about from a [00:07:35] marketing or my head of product?
Chris Koehler: You know, what, what should I be doing with my marketing strategy around that? [00:07:40] So you look for peers and, um, I remember very specifically during COVID, [00:07:45] uh, there was a, a group of CMOs that I had found out were meeting on a weekly [00:07:50] basis for almost like a therapy session. Because everything was changing, you know, it was [00:07:55] like, oh my gosh, we can't do in person events.
Chris Koehler: Digital's not working this da da. Like, [00:08:00] and what are you doing? What are you doing? And so I remember it was CMOs [00:08:05] of, of Zoom and Okta and Slack [00:08:10] and Twilio at the time. And like, you know, there were like quite a few of the network that [00:08:15] would sit down and we'd share ideas and, and sort of riff off like, hey, here are the things I'm [00:08:20] seeing.
Chris Koehler: And as part of that. And that worked for a while and then sort of COVID died off [00:08:25] and went back to their day jobs. Right? They started running, you know, running their teams and, [00:08:30] and didn't need as much therapy. But I missed that craving of like, Hey, I need [00:08:35] other people. Like I'm, I'm struggling with a situation where I'd love to bounce an idea off [00:08:40] someone.
Chris Koehler: Uh, and, you know, I'd love to get their feedback on, on some of that. And [00:08:45] so, like you said, I'm, I'm involved in many groups, but they're often like commingled. [00:08:50] Where the companies of our size, I mean we're 5 billion plus in revenue. Um, there aren't a lot [00:08:55] of software companies in that realm. And uh, so I end up being around a lot of like [00:09:00] B2C CMOs and it's like the problems are the same, but it's not exactly the same.
Chris Koehler: Um, [00:09:05] and so the, the idea which we had chatted was like, Hey. How can [00:09:10] I learn from other CMOs that are sort of at scale, that are dealing with a lot of [00:09:15] the same challenges that I'm dealing with and how? How can I learn from them? Because the reality is [00:09:20] like I don't have all the answers and I don't know who to turn to other than peers that are dealing [00:09:25] with the same situation.
Jon Miller: That is probably the single best pitch for the B2B CMO [00:09:30] project. That, that, uh, better than I, better than I could have done. You know, in the, [00:09:35] in the project, the, the two big themes that the CMOs we talked to seem to [00:09:40] be struggling with are, are one. Just what does it really mean to be a strategic CMO, [00:09:45] uh, in today's world?
Jon Miller: And then two, just dealing with all the change that AI [00:09:50] is driving. So that's, I want to just dive into both of those. [00:09:55] Um, so I guess start with the first one, like, you know, what, [00:10:00] what does being a strategic CMO actually mean to [00:10:05] you?
Chris Koehler: uh, maybe I'll put it in the framing of the strategy. That I teed [00:10:10] up for my
Chris Koehler: team. Uh, and I said there, there's a couple things that I wanna [00:10:15] sort of be able to hang our hat, tell the rest of the company, like [00:10:20] this is what we're gonna go focus on. And this is how we, how we get a seat at the table, [00:10:25] we drive value and be seen as a valuable component of the growth of this [00:10:30] company. So the first one was, we have to drive growth. That can mean [00:10:35] several different things that can mean in a self-service channel, right? We're driving [00:10:40] traffic to, we're partnering with our product, um, our product peers, and we are [00:10:45] ensuring that our developers are getting access to the capabilities they need [00:10:50] and getting up to speed quickly.
Chris Koehler: And like we have a role to play in that because that's, that's our [00:10:55] future enterprise developer, um, down the road. That can be in pipeline, [00:11:00] right? How do we partner super closely with our sales team of together? We [00:11:05] gotta own pipeline. We gotta build pipeline that's of lifeblood of the company. So in, in driving [00:11:10] growth might be, um, you know, pricing.
Chris Koehler: One of the things that I, when I [00:11:15] took over when I was, when I came to Twilio, I said, Hey, I'd like to take on pricing. 'cause I [00:11:20] think pricing could be a, a growth driver. For the business. As we start to think [00:11:25] about how do we simplify, how do we package, how do we do a better job of telling our story [00:11:30] from a pricing perspective so our customers get it?
Chris Koehler: So I said, we need to drive growth for the company, [00:11:35] not like for marketing sake for the company. We have to drive growth. The next one is we have to tell [00:11:40] our story. And that takes many facets. Like we have to be really good [00:11:45] storytellers across the business. And it's not just the product, it's the corporate narrative.
Chris Koehler: It's like [00:11:50] why we exist and we've got stakeholders that's, you know, we've got shareholders that, you know, that [00:11:55] own our company. We've got employees that we've gotta get excited about coming into work every day. [00:12:00] And we have, at the end of the day, we serve customers. And so customers need to both be [00:12:05] inspired by what we're doing, understand what we can provide.
Chris Koehler: And be [00:12:10] aware of all of the, the capabilities. So it's like, tell our story, drive growth. Um, [00:12:15] and then, then one of the things that, that I said to him is like, this could be a little bit more internally focused, but [00:12:20] like, we have to make Twilio simpler. Simpler to buy, simpler to sell, partner with a [00:12:25] sales team, like reduce the complexity of this business and make it simpler both for [00:12:30] customers, for, you know, our, you know, our, um, other employees, uh, [00:12:35] in, in the company.
Chris Koehler: So let's make it simpler. And that's, you know, everything from the storytelling to the [00:12:40] positioning to the pricing, all of those things. And then last, I was like, we need to [00:12:45] have fun. And what, what does that mean? And, and. I, it sort of came down to be bold [00:12:50] and I think, you know, one of my observations, and I've been lucky enough to be in B2C and B2B [00:12:55] marketing.
Chris Koehler: I was at E-Trade during the fun days with the babies and you know, [00:13:00] everyone like, you know, everyone was like, oh, what's gonna be the E-Trade Super Bowl commercial? I wasn't there long. I was only [00:13:05] there a year. But like, that sort of built into my psyche of like, why can't [00:13:10] we have fun with our story and our brand?
Chris Koehler: And I think B2B for too [00:13:15] long, it's been too serious. We're still selling, well, we've always been [00:13:20] selling to humans. We're now maybe selling to humans and agents, uh, which is a whole nother dynamic that we're [00:13:25] learning, we're learning from, but like people wanna be, they wanna be inspired, [00:13:30] they wanna have fun, they wanna laugh.
Chris Koehler: Like we're, you know, at the end of the day, we're selling to humans and [00:13:35] it's relationships and building, you know, building trust. So let's have some fun with that. So that was the other [00:13:40] principle. And I think if you take all of that and you're like, how do we simplify? Simplify what we [00:13:45] do? How do we tell a story?
Chris Koehler: How do we drive growth? How do we be bold? That's what a [00:13:50] strategic marketing organization. Should be able to do in a company, if we can [00:13:55] do those four things, like we are gonna be right, uh, seen as a, [00:14:00] as a strategic partner in the company. And we've seen that over the last two years [00:14:05] and, uh, we've been lucky enough to have, you know, some great success on that.
Jon Miller: And you didn't mention MQLs [00:14:10] once that entire time.
Chris Koehler: I mean, like, listen, it's a necessary evil, but [00:14:15] at the end of the day. I, I've seen too often through my career where people are high fiving [00:14:20] on how many M qls and the reality is like, unless it's driving revenue for the business, it doesn't [00:14:25] matter. It's just, it's an ends to a mean, it's a math formula that we build out.
Chris Koehler: [00:14:30] Revenue is the thing that that, that everyone in the C-suite cares about.
Jon Miller: Is there [00:14:35] something that a, you've seen or, or that you think a, like a, a, a tactical [00:14:40] CMO does that you explicitly don't do? Or, and or [00:14:45] vice versa, something that you do that you definitely don't see a tactical CMO doing?
Chris Koehler: Um, oh, [00:14:50] they're, they're kind of a, I don't talk marketing ever in with my [00:14:55] peers or in the, in the board. Um, I talk about here are the business [00:15:00] drivers. You know, I will say like, I would never get into a world where we talk about m [00:15:05] qls, SQLs, any of that stuff at the board. This is how much pipe, we've got enough coverage.
Chris Koehler: [00:15:10] Our CRO and I are aligned that we're gonna be able to get to our revenue targets next quarter. Like [00:15:15] that's the level of detail that they care about. They're like, are you guys [00:15:20] gonna be able to get to the targets that you've set out from when we were a public company from a street [00:15:25] perspective? Um, I don't use like marketing jargon at all.
Chris Koehler: You [00:15:30] know, in, in any of our discussions I talk about, okay, revenue, profitability, [00:15:35] growth, those, those are the, I, the language of the C-suite is how I talk. [00:15:40] Um, not, Hey, let me, let me walk you through all of the marketing jargon that I've [00:15:45] gotta give you, basically a cheat sheet of like, what the heck is he even talking about?
Chris Koehler: So I think that's [00:15:50] one. I think talking about, um, pipeline as [00:15:55] the goal. Pipeline's not the goal. The goal is revenue pipeline's the way [00:16:00] to get to the revenue. So again, the way you frame it is all around revenue, not [00:16:05] about pipeline. Pipeline is what you need to get as part of that. So I think there's examples of [00:16:10] that where, um, that I see that quite a bit and then I off often see.[00:16:15]
Chris Koehler: And one of the things that, I guess maybe because I've been in so many different parts [00:16:20] of the organization, I've been in the sales organization, I've been in the product, the othering of [00:16:25] like, oh, well, the product team does that, or, oh, the sales team is part of that. Like, no, no, no, no. That [00:16:30] does not happen in our org.
Chris Koehler: We're all part of one cohesive unit that we've gotta work [00:16:35] together. So I've seen that probably too often where it's like, we're in this [00:16:40] together. Uh, we own the number and that's pretty uncomfortable. Like my teams, it's [00:16:45] taken some time to get there, but it's shared goal, shared accountability. Uh, [00:16:50] if, if sales misses the revenue number, that's my fault.
Chris Koehler: In addition to our CROs, [00:16:55] number fault, right? We together own this. And, uh, too often it's like, well, sales [00:17:00] didn't do this. And I'm like, oh, go spend a go spend a week in their shoes and then come back to me [00:17:05] and tell you, you know, complain about why they're not doing something you need them to do.
Jon Miller: Yeah, I think I saw [00:17:10] also that you, uh, play or played a lot of soccer when you were younger. Is [00:17:15] I
Chris Koehler: did, I did. I played in, uh, at university and still an avid fan.[00:17:20]
Jon Miller: So, I actually like to use soccer as an analogy, you know, for all this, like, sure, [00:17:25] you've got forwards and you've got fullbacks, you've got play people in playing different positions, and those have different [00:17:30] roles and responsibilities. You know, at the end of the day though, you care. Is, did you get the ball in the net?[00:17:35]
Jon Miller: Did the team score a goal?
Chris Koehler: and the assist is just as important as the goal itself, [00:17:40] right? You may not get all the glory and you see this sometimes where, and it, and it happens in, [00:17:45] you know, in, in soccer, football, um, where you know, the guys [00:17:50] are are, or women scoring all the goals, get all the glory. The reality is the person that gave the [00:17:55] ball was just as valuable as part of that, and that's okay.
Chris Koehler: Um, you know, and in some cases [00:18:00] marketing plays that role where we've got the assist, um, and we're not scoring the goal. The sales team [00:18:05] might be doing that, but that's okay. 'cause we're all on the same team. At the end of the day. It's, we it's not, it's not [00:18:10] I or up. Yeah.
Jon Miller: you're winning as the team. You know, I've had some CMOs like worry, [00:18:15] like, oh, but if like I'm not measuring my marketing contribution, like, you [00:18:20] know, then I'm like, what if I have poor performers? Or what if there's somebody who's not doing right? And I would say like, [00:18:25] a great soccer team cares about the scoreboard and do you get enough points?
Jon Miller: But that doesn't mean the [00:18:30] coaches aren't filming each player and they're, and you know, they're still giving [00:18:35] coaching to each individual, and you can still optimize each individual even as you care about the [00:18:40] team winning as a whole.
Chris Koehler: Yeah, hundred percent. Like just because I'm not sharing with [00:18:45] the board some of those marketing metrics doesn't mean that I'm not actually. Measuring the [00:18:50] success around that. It's just like what we share externally. The goals are different [00:18:55] than what I might my, you know, my scorecard looks like internally.
Jon Miller: I think that's very, very well [00:19:00] said. Um, let, let's move on to kind of the, the, the, the second [00:19:05] area, um, which is how AI is changing things. And I know this, again, this is something [00:19:10] that you've been thinking about in digging into, you know, quite a bit. [00:19:15] Um, you've even alluded to it like, like. What happens when the buyer's [00:19:20] increasingly, not just a human, but a, an actual AI agent?
Jon Miller: What [00:19:25] does that mean for attribution, for how we as [00:19:30] CMOs can actually prove that we're having some impact? I.
Chris Koehler: Yeah, I mean, [00:19:35] this world is, is, uh, it's changing so fast and it's, it, quite frankly, it's, it's [00:19:40] hard to keep up with just the, the amount of innovation and change. It's both [00:19:45] the most exciting time and probably the most terrifying time as a marketer, uh, to be in [00:19:50] this industry.
Jon Miller: It's also a really exciting and challenging time to be building technology for [00:19:55] marketers.
Chris Koehler: Or, or building technology because you know that, that, that's a whole nother another [00:20:00] component of this, right? And so there's a world where for the [00:20:05] first time, sort of in, in human history, like the other person that you're selling to [00:20:10] may be not a human, but is doing something on behalf of a human. [00:20:15] For the most part as we start to think about it in Agentic world, and I think it all started, it all [00:20:20] started, I don't know, 18 months ago, or it's probably almost two years now, when with this [00:20:25] notion of AEM and you had, you know, ChatGPT and Anthropic and um, [00:20:30] you keep going down the list of all of the different models where consumer [00:20:35] behavior has changed so radically in the last couple years that [00:20:40] your default for everyone was, let me go to Google, let's Google that. That's, [00:20:45] that's my starting point and I'll argue like that was a well-known, tried and [00:20:50] true. As a marketer, I could either optimize through SEO or I [00:20:55] could buy or do both, and I could be relevant in a conversation depending on how much I [00:21:00] wanted to spend around that. Now that's completely changed because there's not a [00:21:05] single player in that front. There's multiple models. It's non, you know, it's not deterministic. [00:21:10] So ask the same question multiple times. You're gonna get a different answer. And so all of a sudden, like [00:21:15] mo, the complexity of what I've gotta go optimize changed like radically.[00:21:20]
Chris Koehler: So AEO was the first start of this. And we get into a world [00:21:25] where I, I had this epiphany probably. I'm trying to [00:21:30] think. I was sitting in a hotel room in Boston and, uh, a few months [00:21:35] ago, maybe it was two or three months ago, and I, I think for a while I thought, okay, [00:21:40] AEO that's an extension of SEO. Like I've got a team of content.
Chris Koehler: Like, [00:21:45] let me just do a better job of SEO. That's now for AEO [00:21:50] And then I took a step back and I was like, you know what? That's, that's, I'm not thinking about that. Right? [00:21:55] Actually, everything in marketing is now geared towards AEO as this [00:22:00] new avenue where everything that we do, we have to optimize for both AEO [00:22:05] the an answer engine optimization, which again, for a while it's gonna be humans, but it might be for [00:22:10] humans doing search.
Chris Koehler: It might be for your agent doing search all of a sudden now. [00:22:15] Everyone in the organization needs to be thinking through how do we optimize content in this [00:22:20] new world? And, um. It was like this, whoa. Light bulb came off. [00:22:25] It was like everything's changed and we gotta get everyone rallied around thinking through, [00:22:30] right?
Chris Koehler: Who were we writing content for? And the, the team. The team [00:22:35] basically we did a workshop and we spent a bunch of time sitting in a room trying to figure out how do we position this, how do [00:22:40] we, how do we make sure we rally the whole company and the whole organization around this? And [00:22:45] we're like, we are going to write for humans and optimize for agents. We think [00:22:50] that ultimately at the end of the day, the agent is doing something on behalf of a human. And this was [00:22:55] another sort of epiphany that I had, was that AI agents, at first I thought it was [00:23:00] like this, a new persona of like an AI agent, this new persona, the reality is an [00:23:05] AI agent is a. Persona, but it's an extension of a task or a human that's doing [00:23:10] something on their behalf.
Chris Koehler: So if whatever I would've written for a human, that [00:23:15] AI agent should think through, like, okay, that's the content that I need, maybe in a slightly different [00:23:20] format, but I I, I'm gonna still optimize around that. So. So much has [00:23:25] changed. I know that was a lot, but you know, we're in the midst of uh uh, I think as an [00:23:30] industry trying to figure this all out, and every time the mod new model comes out and there's another change, we're [00:23:35] all scrambling trying to figure it out again.
Jon Miller: Yeah. So I mean, how are you, I'd just [00:23:40] like to li dig a little deeper how you're op operationalizing some of these things. So [00:23:45] for example, what are you actually measuring around the success of this [00:23:50] stuff? What are you keeping internal to marketing and is there anything that bubbles up outside of [00:23:55] marketing on this stuff?
Chris Koehler: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting like I, I'm sure. [00:24:00] I'm not unique in this, that, uh, my team and, and me personally [00:24:05] gets, you know, snippets from the board or from the executive [00:24:10] team or someone else in the organization said, Hey, I was in ChatGPT and I searched for this and we didn't [00:24:15] show up or X, Y, and Z.
Chris Koehler: Like we were getting enough.
Chris Koehler: Yeah. Never happens. Um, [00:24:20] and so, so I was like, okay. We need to educate the whole company that we're [00:24:25] actually on top of this and we've got a strategy and we're working through. And so, um, last week in the [00:24:30] all hands call, we, my team actually did a full session of like, here's what we're doing to address the [00:24:35] AEO.
Chris Koehler: So that basically Okay guys, like stop sending us messages. We are [00:24:40] on top of this as part of our strategy. We're working through all of it. Which I got a lot of [00:24:45] really positive feedback. 'cause it, it eased the minds of so many of the employees being like, oh, okay, they're [00:24:50] working through it. They've got a plan.
Chris Koehler: You know? Okay. If it doesn't show up, maybe there's a reason around [00:24:55] that. So one, educating the company around what AEO is.
Chris Koehler: [00:25:00] Um, what it not right, what it's not talking to them about [00:25:05] what our approach and plan is. Talking about how we're doing and creating [00:25:10] content differently. You know, whether that is we're structuring the content in different formats, [00:25:15] whether we are doing more video content, like all of those things, like we've got a clear, [00:25:20] um, one of the, one of the aha moments too is that we created a, a lot of [00:25:25] content, but did that content all, did it all work together in service of [00:25:30] this new, um, way that people were searching?
Chris Koehler: Not necessarily. And [00:25:35] so we had to create different, you know, different work streams around the content. How do we prioritize [00:25:40] that? What are the new areas? 'cause that's the other thing that that's changed quite a bit as well, is the way [00:25:45] that people search changed, right? It used to be, like, for us it'd be a, I need [00:25:50] an SMS, you know, A API to embed in my product.
Chris Koehler: Now it's like I [00:25:55] need to email and text message my customers. I'm building a new software, [00:26:00] software platform. I'm looking for best in class of X, Y, and Z. Like, that's the query. How do I [00:26:05] optimize that query? Well, it used to be like a keyword or two in there that we'd go bid against, or we [00:26:10] had SEO around it.
Chris Koehler: Now it's like, I gotta figure out how we're relevant in that conversation.
Jon Miller: okay. So, so. [00:26:15] Chris, like, you know, uh, you're making all this investment in AEO [00:26:20] and other things I'm wondering about just more, more broadly, [00:26:25] how have you thought about either rebuilding processes or teams [00:26:30] to kind of move forward in this kind of AI world?
Chris Koehler: Yeah, [00:26:35] we, I, I mean, full disclosure, we haven't figured it all out. Um. I think, yeah. [00:26:40] I mean, I, and, and I talk to a lot of my peers and everyone's sort of trying to figure the same thing out. And, and [00:26:45] it's interesting, the larger at scale companies are operating in a [00:26:50] way that are very different than startups.
Chris Koehler: And startups are running in a much more nimble, [00:26:55] agile approach. And like they're creating new roles, right. That we don't [00:27:00] have in our, in our organization. And we're, we're taking a sort of a lesson from them saying, okay, well. [00:27:05] What, how are you organized? Um, what are the type of roles and, and how [00:27:10] should we thinking through this?
Chris Koehler: But I think the way I describe it is sort of our [00:27:15] AI journey is it started with a lot of like access [00:27:20] to the tools and driving personal productivity. And so, um, that's where the first start, and [00:27:25] that was probably 18 months ago to 12 months ago. Then you get into a world where you're like, okay, [00:27:30] well I'm more productive, but now my team needs to be more productive.
Chris Koehler: So how are we building. [00:27:35] What, what tools are we using to drive within my own team some [00:27:40] productivity so that we can share and we can collaborate and we can work through and, and drive, uh, you know, [00:27:45] um, more efficiency across the organization. And then it got into the world where we're like, [00:27:50] okay, well what about the cross marketing production of, you know, let's get [00:27:55] out of our own marketing silos and think through how do we [00:28:00] reimagine, let's say campaigns.
Chris Koehler: How would we start, you know, today? [00:28:05] Um, it may take like, Hey, we've got a new idea. Wanna do this campaign? It may [00:28:10] take six to eight weeks to get a new campaign out the door. [00:28:15] And if you, if you take AI and you optimize the [00:28:20] existing workflows that you have today, you might be able to shrink that down. [00:28:25] To three to four weeks.
Chris Koehler: Everything is like incrementally faster. But what we [00:28:30] realized was actually you need a system. You need to be on the same tools [00:28:35] that are gonna optimize this from start to finish. And you can't have one team [00:28:40] optimizing in, in OpenAI, another's on Claude, someone else is on Gemini, [00:28:45] they're all on different products.
Chris Koehler: And you're like, okay, well how are we going to share and drive [00:28:50] this? So we took a step back and we said, well. Actually in that process, [00:28:55] you might have multiple teams that are all responsible for a portion of the campaign. [00:29:00] Someone's got the ideation and the creative and the, someone built the brief, and then you've got the [00:29:05] media plan and you like, you keep going on and it's like broken up into lots of little [00:29:10] individual.
Chris Koehler: Tasks that go along almost like a conveyor belt. And [00:29:15] if you're lucky, that goes smoothly. But what often happens is like teams will work through and then they gotta go [00:29:20] back and it starts, and then all of a sudden this adds so much time around that. So if you optimize the [00:29:25] existing workflows that you have today with a ai, you can only get so much efficiency.[00:29:30]
Chris Koehler: But when I challenged the team and I said, okay, well what if I want a new [00:29:35] campaign in 10 days? No, that's not possible. I was like, why is it not [00:29:40] possible? What if you just reimagine how you do that? What if you put a [00:29:45] single individual that is gonna be responsible for driving that across the [00:29:50] organization and you put new AI tools in their hands and they can go build this [00:29:55] full thing with the support of others in the organization, but like get out of [00:30:00] their way.
Chris Koehler: Let them go figure out how to get it out the door in 10 days. That is [00:30:05] the transformation I think we're all gonna have to realize now. What [00:30:10] individual has enough knowledge to be dangerous, right? That can go do [00:30:15] that. What's the right, what's the right audience that we're going after? What's the right messaging?
Chris Koehler: [00:30:20] Where would we put this into market? How do we localize this? Like all of those things, [00:30:25] that's, those are new roles, right? We don't have, we didn't have anyone in the, in the organization that was like, [00:30:30] I'm gonna go do this from, from start to finish. So you're getting in a world where. [00:30:35] New role types are gonna be created.
Chris Koehler: The silos amongst the [00:30:40] organizations, even within marketing are gonna have to break down. And I think what we're gonna have [00:30:45] to do over the next 12 to 18 months is like, reimagine how we're [00:30:50] organized, right? Because the organization might actually, the way that we're [00:30:55] structured might actually be the bottleneck to drive to, you know, to getting better output [00:31:00] faster.
Chris Koehler: And that doesn't mean like what, what the scary part is when you talk like that. [00:31:05] It's like, oh no, here we go. We don't need as many people. And it is like, no, [00:31:10] actually we have a backlog of ideas and things that we would love to be able to go [00:31:15] do. I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sitting here being like, well, I'm so glad we can do [00:31:20] everything that, you know, we've come up with and brainstorm about the stuff.
Chris Koehler: The reality is we all [00:31:25] have to make trade offs of constraints. It's like, well, I'd like to do this, but this [00:31:30] one's more important so that back burners and we do this approach. Getting to a world where [00:31:35] you can actually drive more, I think is the thing that we've all been promising. I mean, Jon, we've been [00:31:40] in this space for a long time where we're like personalization at scale.
Chris Koehler: I mean, I've been guilty of saying that for [00:31:45] 10, 15 years. It's really, really hard. But I think there is a world where you could [00:31:50] get into where that's might be possible. Um, and you know, I think it's [00:31:55] a better customer experience. It's better for the company and the brands and that's where, that's where [00:32:00] I am sort of evolving over time.
Chris Koehler: But it's a, it's really hard for employees too [00:32:05] 'cause like it's all change. Right. And I think that's the piece that we're all sort of [00:32:10] grappling with.
Jon Miller: what I love about what you did at the end there, right? Was like you, you started mostly [00:32:15] talking about AI to drive efficiency. You know, let's streamline six weeks down [00:32:20] to, you know, 10 days and all that kind of thing. But the very. End, it's like, oh, and let's also use it [00:32:25] to deliver personalized journeys, one-to-one touches, you know, interactions, [00:32:30] um, which just was not possible before because of the complexity that's [00:32:35] about making our marketing more effective, not just more efficient.
Chris Koehler: Yeah. And I [00:32:40] think, yeah, and I, and I think there's like, the easy, the easy answer is to go into [00:32:45] doomsday scenario and be like, oh my gosh. Like everyone, no one's gonna have jobs like, you know, this is terrible. AI's [00:32:50] gonna do all of it for us. I'm not in that camp like I'm, I'm more of an optimist. I think, you know, [00:32:55] that we're, we're actually seeing.
Chris Koehler: Is we're gonna be, we're gonna drive a lot more [00:33:00] output. I think the question and the concern that I have for the craft [00:33:05] is just because we can doesn't mean we should create. [00:33:10] Right? And I think, I think what is gonna be interesting over the next couple years, [00:33:15] forever in this industry, content was the bottleneck.
Chris Koehler: Content was the [00:33:20] limiting factor with everything that marketing did. It is like we just couldn't create enough [00:33:25] creative or copy or offers or any of those things. Like it was just so hard 'cause you needed human [00:33:30] interaction and um, engagement as part of that, now we're gonna into a world where content is [00:33:35] like ubiquitous and free almost to some point, and how do you flip it on [00:33:40] its head so that you're using the most.
Chris Koehler: Valuable content the most, you [00:33:45] know, you're, you're, you're limiting those, I think that will be successful are the ones that actually pair back [00:33:50] how much they do versus, you know, just spout off more and more content [00:33:55] every day.
Jon Miller: I mean, I, to me it's back exactly back to that [00:34:00] personalization piece, right? The, the, the content is abundant where, and if we're [00:34:05] not smart, we're all gonna end up sounding the same. 'cause we're all using the same models. [00:34:10] What's gonna actually make us stand out and be different is the proverbial right thing at the right time [00:34:15] for each person using all the data intelligence that we have available to us,
Jon Miller: [00:34:20] you know. That to me is the, gonna be the real unlock for what, what AI can do. [00:34:25] So, um, well this, this has been an awesome conversation. Uh, we always [00:34:30] like to end with, um, just giving you an opportunity [00:34:35] to share gratitude. We talked about your origin story, but not all the [00:34:40] sidekicks and supporting cast that helped you get to where you are.
Jon Miller: So are there [00:34:45] any, uh, mentors you want to give a shout out to or, or others? It's kind of [00:34:50] who helped you along the way.
Chris Koehler: I mean, there's, there's tons. Um, you know, I wouldn't, I, I, we'd, [00:34:55] we'd be dishonest if we said we didn't get to where we are without a lot of help from, you know, from people all [00:35:00] along the way. You know, I think for me, just, I, I would say my family is the first one [00:35:05] dealing with the craziness that is, that is the life that we lead.
Chris Koehler: Um, when we have these, [00:35:10] these roles, um, I, I've had some great mentors. Um, you know, [00:35:15] Steph Carullo at Box gave me the opportunity to step into the, the CMO gig at at [00:35:20] Box, and, um. You know, I was, uh, very lucky, uh, to, to, [00:35:25] to step into that role. It's been fairly life changing. Um, I had a couple, um, [00:35:30] a, a couple mentors at Adobe.
Chris Koehler: Um, sadly, uh, they [00:35:35] both passed away, but, um, you know, that, that have. They gave me the [00:35:40] opportunity, one gave me the, gave me the guidance and the feedback when I [00:35:45] wasn't ready to hear it, but they were probably right. Um, and making me better [00:35:50] as a leader. Um, but also then giving me the opportunity to quite [00:35:55] frankly, get ahead of myself and figure out how to do, um, some of the roles that I was given.[00:36:00]
Chris Koehler: With the confidence that, uh, that I would figure it out. So yeah, [00:36:05] there's, there's great mentors along the way. Um, yeah, I've been very lucky [00:36:10] to, uh, to, to get into this role. And, um, I have a lot, a lot, a lot of help along the [00:36:15] way.
Jon Miller: Well, Chris, you know, thank you so much. I mean, I think there's just a lot of great meat [00:36:20] to chew on from this, from this call. Um, I think, you know, probably one of the ones [00:36:25] that stuck with me the most is, you know, when you're front, in front of the board, you [00:36:30] know. Don't talk marketing talk market. Um, and, [00:36:35] and similarly how you sort of talk about pipeline is, you know that that's you own [00:36:40] pipeline and you talk about it, but it's not the goal, it's just the path.
Chris Koehler: [00:36:45] Yeah. I mean, I think as when, when people get into this role, think about it as you're a business leader [00:36:50] driving a company. You're not a marketer, marketer's, your second hat. Your first hat is like, [00:36:55] I'm helping to drive the company forward. And in that role, my speak and my [00:37:00] language is very different than when I'm talking to my marketing team about the very specific components.
Chris Koehler: [00:37:05] And you have to play both and you need to understand which situation you're in.
Jon Miller: A hundred percent. [00:37:10] And then on the AI side, you know, I liked your line about right for humans, but optimize for [00:37:15] agents. I think that's like a, a really clean argument. [00:37:20] Um, and, and I just love the hopeful note on the end, right? Which is AI is not [00:37:25] about firing all our humans. It's about clearing the backlog, uh, and building [00:37:30] on all those ideas that we never had the hands to really do.
Jon Miller: So, [00:37:35] you know, with that, I think, um, you know, as you said, we should be simple, be bold and have [00:37:40] some fun with the story.
Chris Koehler: Hundred percent.
Jon Miller: Chris Koehler, thank you so much for [00:37:45] joining us.
Chris Koehler: Thanks, Jon. Appreciate it.
Thanks for listening to the B2B CMO [00:37:50] podcast. Head on over to b2b CMO project.com for more [00:37:55] episodes, plus the latest research and framework CMOs need, not just to [00:38:00] survive but actually thrive as AI in the new playbook reshape how we Go-To-Market. And [00:38:05] if this episode sparks something for you, please follow the show.
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[00:00:00]
Jon Miller: [00:00:05] [00:00:10] [00:00:15] [00:00:20] Hello and welcome to today's [00:00:25] episode of the B2B CMO Project Podcast. [00:00:30] My guest today has spent more than 25 years figuring out how marketing [00:00:35] actually works, not just in theory, but inside companies like E-Trade, Adobe in Box. [00:00:40] He came up through the analytics and product side, and today he's the Chief [00:00:45] Marketing Officer at Twilio, the platform for conversations in the AI era. [00:00:50] And lately he's been chasing a question I happen to care a lot about what happens to [00:00:55] discovery, to personalization, and to the CMOs mandate itself in the [00:01:00] age of ai.
Jon Miller: Chris Koehler, welcome to the show. I.
Chris Koehler: Jon, great to [00:01:05] be here and I don't think I've figured out marketing. It seems like it keeps changing, uh, constantly [00:01:10] for us, but I am doing my best.
Jon Miller: Huh, that is a really good point. I thought I had it figured [00:01:15] out. Uh, I wrote the playbook a couple years ago, but it turns out apparently that doesn't work anymore either. [00:01:20] So, uh, perhaps the key is just staying on our toes.
Chris Koehler: I, I [00:01:25] think that is, uh, you know, staying nimble is really, really important in this day and age for sure.
Jon Miller: [00:01:30] Well, let's begin just by getting to know you a little bit. Um, every good, uh, [00:01:35] superhero story has an origin, uh, and I wanna know like, what's, so what's your [00:01:40] origin? How did you, you know, become Chris Koehler of the CMO of Twilio? [00:01:45] I.
Chris Koehler: Man, that's probably a long story. But, [00:01:50] um, you know, I, I've always sort of liked the, the craft of [00:01:55] marketing, but I probably. I probably thought about it when I was younger, more around sort of the human [00:02:00] psychology and, and. Uh, just brands in general. And, [00:02:05] um, I grew up, we talked a little bit about this. I grew up in, uh, in both [00:02:10] Florida when I was very young.
Chris Koehler: Um, I, I was lucky enough to live in [00:02:15] Orlando and watch a lot of the space shuttles. We could talk about wanting to be an astronaut and know that's, that was one [00:02:20] of your childhood dreams as well. Um, and then I grew up in rural New Hampshire. [00:02:25] And, uh, you know, I never thought, you know, quite frankly, I was gonna be working in tech.
Chris Koehler: [00:02:30] Um, I, I thought, well, if I am, you know, I, I like sort of fun and [00:02:35] adventure. I should be an astronaut or I should be a fighter pilot and, you know, [00:02:40] but as I went to school and learned over time, sort of gravitated towards this [00:02:45] notion of consumer behavior. And, uh, it always sort of fast [00:02:50] fascinated me why people do certain things, why people buy certain things, why brands are, you know, [00:02:55] more valuable than others.
Chris Koehler: That's probably why I ended up marrying a psychologist. Uh, you [00:03:00] know, we can, we can geek out on sort of human behavior on that front. Um, but, you [00:03:05] know, I spent sort of my, my career back and forth on. Different [00:03:10] aspects of date, be it data driven to understanding, [00:03:15] uh, the craft of marketing to being on the vendor side for many, many years.
Chris Koehler: You know, spent [00:03:20] many years at Adobe, you know, helping build out, um, sort of the art and science, what we talked [00:03:25] about for a long time of marketing. Um, and my first like [00:03:30] real, I would say, operator role. At any, at any scale, I'd done it at [00:03:35] a startup was at Box. And, um, you know, I was lucky enough to, to step [00:03:40] into the CMO shoes.
Chris Koehler: I know Tricia was on this, uh, on this podcast, um, a little [00:03:45] while ago and she was one of my calls when I was leaving, uh, saying, Hey, you know, I think you'd be [00:03:50] great at Box. Um, and, um. You know, I've been lucky enough to [00:03:55] sort of play in the, you know, on the customer side and the product side, a bit of a [00:04:00] generalist at heart, but always coming back to the notion of like, how, what, what are [00:04:05] the, what are the facets of human behavior and how can I shape our story, our brand, our [00:04:10] narrative, uh, to ensure that, uh, we're, we're helping drive the most value, right?
Chris Koehler: [00:04:15] For the company.
Jon Miller: Cool.
Chris Koehler: I'm not sure that's superhero worthy, but you know, I, [00:04:20] Hey, life's pretty good.
Jon Miller: understanding the customer should be a superpower. so yeah. [00:04:25] as you said, I wanted to be a astronaut too. I was in the Silvera patrol, thought I [00:04:30] might go get my pilot's license and all that kind of stuff. For me, the, the, the, [00:04:35] the fatal flaw was I had terrible vision and I realized that I would never be able [00:04:40] to sort of actually retrieve those genes with the, with the eyesight that I had.
Jon Miller: So.
Chris Koehler: Yeah, [00:04:45] I mean, I, my, my dad, uh, was in the FA, a, growing, you know, so I grew up around a lot [00:04:50] of airplanes and, uh. But I guess maybe I never had enough money [00:04:55] to get my pilot's license and move down that path. So, you know, that was probably killed my dream [00:05:00] and, and quite frankly, I wasn't ready to go into the military to learn that way.
Chris Koehler: So I. ended up in marketing, [00:05:05] you
Jon Miller: I was saving up for, you know, money to get my own pilot's license and all that kind of [00:05:10] stuff. And, and when I, when I didn't do that, I put all the money and bought a really high-end Macintosh, [00:05:15] uh, and got into design and things like that instead. So we all have our [00:05:20] crazy path to where we, where we get to.
Chris Koehler: I think it served you well, um, at the end of the day.
Jon Miller: [00:05:25] Yep. Um, okay, so, so last just question, trying to get to know you. I'd like to, you know, [00:05:30] talk about, you know, what's your five to nine IE you know, what's your passion outside of [00:05:35] work?
Chris Koehler: uh, for anyone that knows me, like I'm pretty crazy, [00:05:40] like active, you know, individual in our family, like we. We like to do a [00:05:45] lot of things. Um, we are big skiers, golfers, hikers, uh, [00:05:50] travel. We love to travel. Um, and so for me, anything getting out, being [00:05:55] outdoors, being active, learning and, and digging into new things, like that's, [00:06:00] that's ultimately, you know, what my family sort of prides ourself on.
Chris Koehler: Uh, so I [00:06:05] think that's a big one. And then. Just learning, right? We, we have this motto of like, always [00:06:10] keep learning in our family, and so always trying to figure stuff out and learn and, and just get, [00:06:15] you know, 1% better, um, all the time.
Jon Miller: All right. That sounds good. [00:06:20] So, you know, as a, as a segue, you know, this is the B2B CMO project [00:06:25] podcast. Um, you know, I'll, I'll let you in on something. You know, when you and I [00:06:30] talked, gosh, like. More than a year ago. You know, one of the things that you had [00:06:35] said at the time was you didn't really feel like other CMO communities felt like your [00:06:40] peers.
Jon Miller: You know, that, that either they were smaller companies wrestling with different [00:06:45] problems, or they were big companies, but, but not with B2B problems. [00:06:50] Um, and that stuck with me and, and a hundred percent true. That is a big part of what [00:06:55] pushed me to help try to start. This B2B CMO project, you know? So, so [00:07:00] in a way you're partly to, to blame or get some credit for all this, you know, what, what, what [00:07:05] were you looking for that you felt was, was, was missing from other B2B [00:07:10] communities?
Chris Koehler: I mean, I think, you know, I'll give you an example of [00:07:15] in times of crisis, right? Especially when you're at the top of whatever [00:07:20] profession in any organization, everyone's looking to you for the answers. [00:07:25] In, in many of those cases, the reality is you don't have the answer, but you don't want to say, well, well, [00:07:30] I can't look across the aisle and say, Hey, my head of sales, what should I be thinking about from a [00:07:35] marketing or my head of product?
Chris Koehler: You know, what, what should I be doing with my marketing strategy around that? [00:07:40] So you look for peers and, um, I remember very specifically during COVID, [00:07:45] uh, there was a, a group of CMOs that I had found out were meeting on a weekly [00:07:50] basis for almost like a therapy session. Because everything was changing, you know, it was [00:07:55] like, oh my gosh, we can't do in person events.
Chris Koehler: Digital's not working this da da. Like, [00:08:00] and what are you doing? What are you doing? And so I remember it was CMOs [00:08:05] of, of Zoom and Okta and Slack [00:08:10] and Twilio at the time. And like, you know, there were like quite a few of the network that [00:08:15] would sit down and we'd share ideas and, and sort of riff off like, hey, here are the things I'm [00:08:20] seeing.
Chris Koehler: And as part of that. And that worked for a while and then sort of COVID died off [00:08:25] and went back to their day jobs. Right? They started running, you know, running their teams and, [00:08:30] and didn't need as much therapy. But I missed that craving of like, Hey, I need [00:08:35] other people. Like I'm, I'm struggling with a situation where I'd love to bounce an idea off [00:08:40] someone.
Chris Koehler: Uh, and, you know, I'd love to get their feedback on, on some of that. And [00:08:45] so, like you said, I'm, I'm involved in many groups, but they're often like commingled. [00:08:50] Where the companies of our size, I mean we're 5 billion plus in revenue. Um, there aren't a lot [00:08:55] of software companies in that realm. And uh, so I end up being around a lot of like [00:09:00] B2C CMOs and it's like the problems are the same, but it's not exactly the same.
Chris Koehler: Um, [00:09:05] and so the, the idea which we had chatted was like, Hey. How can [00:09:10] I learn from other CMOs that are sort of at scale, that are dealing with a lot of [00:09:15] the same challenges that I'm dealing with and how? How can I learn from them? Because the reality is [00:09:20] like I don't have all the answers and I don't know who to turn to other than peers that are dealing [00:09:25] with the same situation.
Jon Miller: That is probably the single best pitch for the B2B CMO [00:09:30] project. That, that, uh, better than I, better than I could have done. You know, in the, [00:09:35] in the project, the, the two big themes that the CMOs we talked to seem to [00:09:40] be struggling with are, are one. Just what does it really mean to be a strategic CMO, [00:09:45] uh, in today's world?
Jon Miller: And then two, just dealing with all the change that AI [00:09:50] is driving. So that's, I want to just dive into both of those. [00:09:55] Um, so I guess start with the first one, like, you know, what, [00:10:00] what does being a strategic CMO actually mean to [00:10:05] you?
Chris Koehler: uh, maybe I'll put it in the framing of the strategy. That I teed [00:10:10] up for my
Chris Koehler: team. Uh, and I said there, there's a couple things that I wanna [00:10:15] sort of be able to hang our hat, tell the rest of the company, like [00:10:20] this is what we're gonna go focus on. And this is how we, how we get a seat at the table, [00:10:25] we drive value and be seen as a valuable component of the growth of this [00:10:30] company. So the first one was, we have to drive growth. That can mean [00:10:35] several different things that can mean in a self-service channel, right? We're driving [00:10:40] traffic to, we're partnering with our product, um, our product peers, and we are [00:10:45] ensuring that our developers are getting access to the capabilities they need [00:10:50] and getting up to speed quickly.
Chris Koehler: And like we have a role to play in that because that's, that's our [00:10:55] future enterprise developer, um, down the road. That can be in pipeline, [00:11:00] right? How do we partner super closely with our sales team of together? We [00:11:05] gotta own pipeline. We gotta build pipeline that's of lifeblood of the company. So in, in driving [00:11:10] growth might be, um, you know, pricing.
Chris Koehler: One of the things that I, when I [00:11:15] took over when I was, when I came to Twilio, I said, Hey, I'd like to take on pricing. 'cause I [00:11:20] think pricing could be a, a growth driver. For the business. As we start to think [00:11:25] about how do we simplify, how do we package, how do we do a better job of telling our story [00:11:30] from a pricing perspective so our customers get it?
Chris Koehler: So I said, we need to drive growth for the company, [00:11:35] not like for marketing sake for the company. We have to drive growth. The next one is we have to tell [00:11:40] our story. And that takes many facets. Like we have to be really good [00:11:45] storytellers across the business. And it's not just the product, it's the corporate narrative.
Chris Koehler: It's like [00:11:50] why we exist and we've got stakeholders that's, you know, we've got shareholders that, you know, that [00:11:55] own our company. We've got employees that we've gotta get excited about coming into work every day. [00:12:00] And we have, at the end of the day, we serve customers. And so customers need to both be [00:12:05] inspired by what we're doing, understand what we can provide.
Chris Koehler: And be [00:12:10] aware of all of the, the capabilities. So it's like, tell our story, drive growth. Um, [00:12:15] and then, then one of the things that, that I said to him is like, this could be a little bit more internally focused, but [00:12:20] like, we have to make Twilio simpler. Simpler to buy, simpler to sell, partner with a [00:12:25] sales team, like reduce the complexity of this business and make it simpler both for [00:12:30] customers, for, you know, our, you know, our, um, other employees, uh, [00:12:35] in, in the company.
Chris Koehler: So let's make it simpler. And that's, you know, everything from the storytelling to the [00:12:40] positioning to the pricing, all of those things. And then last, I was like, we need to [00:12:45] have fun. And what, what does that mean? And, and. I, it sort of came down to be bold [00:12:50] and I think, you know, one of my observations, and I've been lucky enough to be in B2C and B2B [00:12:55] marketing.
Chris Koehler: I was at E-Trade during the fun days with the babies and you know, [00:13:00] everyone like, you know, everyone was like, oh, what's gonna be the E-Trade Super Bowl commercial? I wasn't there long. I was only [00:13:05] there a year. But like, that sort of built into my psyche of like, why can't [00:13:10] we have fun with our story and our brand?
Chris Koehler: And I think B2B for too [00:13:15] long, it's been too serious. We're still selling, well, we've always been [00:13:20] selling to humans. We're now maybe selling to humans and agents, uh, which is a whole nother dynamic that we're [00:13:25] learning, we're learning from, but like people wanna be, they wanna be inspired, [00:13:30] they wanna have fun, they wanna laugh.
Chris Koehler: Like we're, you know, at the end of the day, we're selling to humans and [00:13:35] it's relationships and building, you know, building trust. So let's have some fun with that. So that was the other [00:13:40] principle. And I think if you take all of that and you're like, how do we simplify? Simplify what we [00:13:45] do? How do we tell a story?
Chris Koehler: How do we drive growth? How do we be bold? That's what a [00:13:50] strategic marketing organization. Should be able to do in a company, if we can [00:13:55] do those four things, like we are gonna be right, uh, seen as a, [00:14:00] as a strategic partner in the company. And we've seen that over the last two years [00:14:05] and, uh, we've been lucky enough to have, you know, some great success on that.
Jon Miller: And you didn't mention MQLs [00:14:10] once that entire time.
Chris Koehler: I mean, like, listen, it's a necessary evil, but [00:14:15] at the end of the day. I, I've seen too often through my career where people are high fiving [00:14:20] on how many M qls and the reality is like, unless it's driving revenue for the business, it doesn't [00:14:25] matter. It's just, it's an ends to a mean, it's a math formula that we build out.
Chris Koehler: [00:14:30] Revenue is the thing that that, that everyone in the C-suite cares about.
Jon Miller: Is there [00:14:35] something that a, you've seen or, or that you think a, like a, a, a tactical [00:14:40] CMO does that you explicitly don't do? Or, and or [00:14:45] vice versa, something that you do that you definitely don't see a tactical CMO doing?
Chris Koehler: Um, oh, [00:14:50] they're, they're kind of a, I don't talk marketing ever in with my [00:14:55] peers or in the, in the board. Um, I talk about here are the business [00:15:00] drivers. You know, I will say like, I would never get into a world where we talk about m [00:15:05] qls, SQLs, any of that stuff at the board. This is how much pipe, we've got enough coverage.
Chris Koehler: [00:15:10] Our CRO and I are aligned that we're gonna be able to get to our revenue targets next quarter. Like [00:15:15] that's the level of detail that they care about. They're like, are you guys [00:15:20] gonna be able to get to the targets that you've set out from when we were a public company from a street [00:15:25] perspective? Um, I don't use like marketing jargon at all.
Chris Koehler: You [00:15:30] know, in, in any of our discussions I talk about, okay, revenue, profitability, [00:15:35] growth, those, those are the, I, the language of the C-suite is how I talk. [00:15:40] Um, not, Hey, let me, let me walk you through all of the marketing jargon that I've [00:15:45] gotta give you, basically a cheat sheet of like, what the heck is he even talking about?
Chris Koehler: So I think that's [00:15:50] one. I think talking about, um, pipeline as [00:15:55] the goal. Pipeline's not the goal. The goal is revenue pipeline's the way [00:16:00] to get to the revenue. So again, the way you frame it is all around revenue, not [00:16:05] about pipeline. Pipeline is what you need to get as part of that. So I think there's examples of [00:16:10] that where, um, that I see that quite a bit and then I off often see.[00:16:15]
Chris Koehler: And one of the things that, I guess maybe because I've been in so many different parts [00:16:20] of the organization, I've been in the sales organization, I've been in the product, the othering of [00:16:25] like, oh, well, the product team does that, or, oh, the sales team is part of that. Like, no, no, no, no. That [00:16:30] does not happen in our org.
Chris Koehler: We're all part of one cohesive unit that we've gotta work [00:16:35] together. So I've seen that probably too often where it's like, we're in this [00:16:40] together. Uh, we own the number and that's pretty uncomfortable. Like my teams, it's [00:16:45] taken some time to get there, but it's shared goal, shared accountability. Uh, [00:16:50] if, if sales misses the revenue number, that's my fault.
Chris Koehler: In addition to our CROs, [00:16:55] number fault, right? We together own this. And, uh, too often it's like, well, sales [00:17:00] didn't do this. And I'm like, oh, go spend a go spend a week in their shoes and then come back to me [00:17:05] and tell you, you know, complain about why they're not doing something you need them to do.
Jon Miller: Yeah, I think I saw [00:17:10] also that you, uh, play or played a lot of soccer when you were younger. Is [00:17:15] I
Chris Koehler: did, I did. I played in, uh, at university and still an avid fan.[00:17:20]
Jon Miller: So, I actually like to use soccer as an analogy, you know, for all this, like, sure, [00:17:25] you've got forwards and you've got fullbacks, you've got play people in playing different positions, and those have different [00:17:30] roles and responsibilities. You know, at the end of the day though, you care. Is, did you get the ball in the net?[00:17:35]
Jon Miller: Did the team score a goal?
Chris Koehler: and the assist is just as important as the goal itself, [00:17:40] right? You may not get all the glory and you see this sometimes where, and it, and it happens in, [00:17:45] you know, in, in soccer, football, um, where you know, the guys [00:17:50] are are, or women scoring all the goals, get all the glory. The reality is the person that gave the [00:17:55] ball was just as valuable as part of that, and that's okay.
Chris Koehler: Um, you know, and in some cases [00:18:00] marketing plays that role where we've got the assist, um, and we're not scoring the goal. The sales team [00:18:05] might be doing that, but that's okay. 'cause we're all on the same team. At the end of the day. It's, we it's not, it's not [00:18:10] I or up. Yeah.
Jon Miller: you're winning as the team. You know, I've had some CMOs like worry, [00:18:15] like, oh, but if like I'm not measuring my marketing contribution, like, you [00:18:20] know, then I'm like, what if I have poor performers? Or what if there's somebody who's not doing right? And I would say like, [00:18:25] a great soccer team cares about the scoreboard and do you get enough points?
Jon Miller: But that doesn't mean the [00:18:30] coaches aren't filming each player and they're, and you know, they're still giving [00:18:35] coaching to each individual, and you can still optimize each individual even as you care about the [00:18:40] team winning as a whole.
Chris Koehler: Yeah, hundred percent. Like just because I'm not sharing with [00:18:45] the board some of those marketing metrics doesn't mean that I'm not actually. Measuring the [00:18:50] success around that. It's just like what we share externally. The goals are different [00:18:55] than what I might my, you know, my scorecard looks like internally.
Jon Miller: I think that's very, very well [00:19:00] said. Um, let, let's move on to kind of the, the, the, the second [00:19:05] area, um, which is how AI is changing things. And I know this, again, this is something [00:19:10] that you've been thinking about in digging into, you know, quite a bit. [00:19:15] Um, you've even alluded to it like, like. What happens when the buyer's [00:19:20] increasingly, not just a human, but a, an actual AI agent?
Jon Miller: What [00:19:25] does that mean for attribution, for how we as [00:19:30] CMOs can actually prove that we're having some impact? I.
Chris Koehler: Yeah, I mean, [00:19:35] this world is, is, uh, it's changing so fast and it's, it, quite frankly, it's, it's [00:19:40] hard to keep up with just the, the amount of innovation and change. It's both [00:19:45] the most exciting time and probably the most terrifying time as a marketer, uh, to be in [00:19:50] this industry.
Jon Miller: It's also a really exciting and challenging time to be building technology for [00:19:55] marketers.
Chris Koehler: Or, or building technology because you know that, that, that's a whole nother another [00:20:00] component of this, right? And so there's a world where for the [00:20:05] first time, sort of in, in human history, like the other person that you're selling to [00:20:10] may be not a human, but is doing something on behalf of a human. [00:20:15] For the most part as we start to think about it in Agentic world, and I think it all started, it all [00:20:20] started, I don't know, 18 months ago, or it's probably almost two years now, when with this [00:20:25] notion of AEM and you had, you know, ChatGPT and Anthropic and um, [00:20:30] you keep going down the list of all of the different models where consumer [00:20:35] behavior has changed so radically in the last couple years that [00:20:40] your default for everyone was, let me go to Google, let's Google that. That's, [00:20:45] that's my starting point and I'll argue like that was a well-known, tried and [00:20:50] true. As a marketer, I could either optimize through SEO or I [00:20:55] could buy or do both, and I could be relevant in a conversation depending on how much I [00:21:00] wanted to spend around that. Now that's completely changed because there's not a [00:21:05] single player in that front. There's multiple models. It's non, you know, it's not deterministic. [00:21:10] So ask the same question multiple times. You're gonna get a different answer. And so all of a sudden, like [00:21:15] mo, the complexity of what I've gotta go optimize changed like radically.[00:21:20]
Chris Koehler: So AEO was the first start of this. And we get into a world [00:21:25] where I, I had this epiphany probably. I'm trying to [00:21:30] think. I was sitting in a hotel room in Boston and, uh, a few months [00:21:35] ago, maybe it was two or three months ago, and I, I think for a while I thought, okay, [00:21:40] AEO that's an extension of SEO. Like I've got a team of content.
Chris Koehler: Like, [00:21:45] let me just do a better job of SEO. That's now for AEO [00:21:50] And then I took a step back and I was like, you know what? That's, that's, I'm not thinking about that. Right? [00:21:55] Actually, everything in marketing is now geared towards AEO as this [00:22:00] new avenue where everything that we do, we have to optimize for both AEO [00:22:05] the an answer engine optimization, which again, for a while it's gonna be humans, but it might be for [00:22:10] humans doing search.
Chris Koehler: It might be for your agent doing search all of a sudden now. [00:22:15] Everyone in the organization needs to be thinking through how do we optimize content in this [00:22:20] new world? And, um. It was like this, whoa. Light bulb came off. [00:22:25] It was like everything's changed and we gotta get everyone rallied around thinking through, [00:22:30] right?
Chris Koehler: Who were we writing content for? And the, the team. The team [00:22:35] basically we did a workshop and we spent a bunch of time sitting in a room trying to figure out how do we position this, how do [00:22:40] we, how do we make sure we rally the whole company and the whole organization around this? And [00:22:45] we're like, we are going to write for humans and optimize for agents. We think [00:22:50] that ultimately at the end of the day, the agent is doing something on behalf of a human. And this was [00:22:55] another sort of epiphany that I had, was that AI agents, at first I thought it was [00:23:00] like this, a new persona of like an AI agent, this new persona, the reality is an [00:23:05] AI agent is a. Persona, but it's an extension of a task or a human that's doing [00:23:10] something on their behalf.
Chris Koehler: So if whatever I would've written for a human, that [00:23:15] AI agent should think through, like, okay, that's the content that I need, maybe in a slightly different [00:23:20] format, but I I, I'm gonna still optimize around that. So. So much has [00:23:25] changed. I know that was a lot, but you know, we're in the midst of uh uh, I think as an [00:23:30] industry trying to figure this all out, and every time the mod new model comes out and there's another change, we're [00:23:35] all scrambling trying to figure it out again.
Jon Miller: Yeah. So I mean, how are you, I'd just [00:23:40] like to li dig a little deeper how you're op operationalizing some of these things. So [00:23:45] for example, what are you actually measuring around the success of this [00:23:50] stuff? What are you keeping internal to marketing and is there anything that bubbles up outside of [00:23:55] marketing on this stuff?
Chris Koehler: Yeah, I mean, it's interesting like I, I'm sure. [00:24:00] I'm not unique in this, that, uh, my team and, and me personally [00:24:05] gets, you know, snippets from the board or from the executive [00:24:10] team or someone else in the organization said, Hey, I was in ChatGPT and I searched for this and we didn't [00:24:15] show up or X, Y, and Z.
Chris Koehler: Like we were getting enough.
Chris Koehler: Yeah. Never happens. Um, [00:24:20] and so, so I was like, okay. We need to educate the whole company that we're [00:24:25] actually on top of this and we've got a strategy and we're working through. And so, um, last week in the [00:24:30] all hands call, we, my team actually did a full session of like, here's what we're doing to address the [00:24:35] AEO.
Chris Koehler: So that basically Okay guys, like stop sending us messages. We are [00:24:40] on top of this as part of our strategy. We're working through all of it. Which I got a lot of [00:24:45] really positive feedback. 'cause it, it eased the minds of so many of the employees being like, oh, okay, they're [00:24:50] working through it. They've got a plan.
Chris Koehler: You know? Okay. If it doesn't show up, maybe there's a reason around [00:24:55] that. So one, educating the company around what AEO is.
Chris Koehler: [00:25:00] Um, what it not right, what it's not talking to them about [00:25:05] what our approach and plan is. Talking about how we're doing and creating [00:25:10] content differently. You know, whether that is we're structuring the content in different formats, [00:25:15] whether we are doing more video content, like all of those things, like we've got a clear, [00:25:20] um, one of the, one of the aha moments too is that we created a, a lot of [00:25:25] content, but did that content all, did it all work together in service of [00:25:30] this new, um, way that people were searching?
Chris Koehler: Not necessarily. And [00:25:35] so we had to create different, you know, different work streams around the content. How do we prioritize [00:25:40] that? What are the new areas? 'cause that's the other thing that that's changed quite a bit as well, is the way [00:25:45] that people search changed, right? It used to be, like, for us it'd be a, I need [00:25:50] an SMS, you know, A API to embed in my product.
Chris Koehler: Now it's like I [00:25:55] need to email and text message my customers. I'm building a new software, [00:26:00] software platform. I'm looking for best in class of X, Y, and Z. Like, that's the query. How do I [00:26:05] optimize that query? Well, it used to be like a keyword or two in there that we'd go bid against, or we [00:26:10] had SEO around it.
Chris Koehler: Now it's like, I gotta figure out how we're relevant in that conversation.
Jon Miller: okay. So, so. [00:26:15] Chris, like, you know, uh, you're making all this investment in AEO [00:26:20] and other things I'm wondering about just more, more broadly, [00:26:25] how have you thought about either rebuilding processes or teams [00:26:30] to kind of move forward in this kind of AI world?
Chris Koehler: Yeah, [00:26:35] we, I, I mean, full disclosure, we haven't figured it all out. Um. I think, yeah. [00:26:40] I mean, I, and, and I talk to a lot of my peers and everyone's sort of trying to figure the same thing out. And, and [00:26:45] it's interesting, the larger at scale companies are operating in a [00:26:50] way that are very different than startups.
Chris Koehler: And startups are running in a much more nimble, [00:26:55] agile approach. And like they're creating new roles, right. That we don't [00:27:00] have in our, in our organization. And we're, we're taking a sort of a lesson from them saying, okay, well. [00:27:05] What, how are you organized? Um, what are the type of roles and, and how [00:27:10] should we thinking through this?
Chris Koehler: But I think the way I describe it is sort of our [00:27:15] AI journey is it started with a lot of like access [00:27:20] to the tools and driving personal productivity. And so, um, that's where the first start, and [00:27:25] that was probably 18 months ago to 12 months ago. Then you get into a world where you're like, okay, [00:27:30] well I'm more productive, but now my team needs to be more productive.
Chris Koehler: So how are we building. [00:27:35] What, what tools are we using to drive within my own team some [00:27:40] productivity so that we can share and we can collaborate and we can work through and, and drive, uh, you know, [00:27:45] um, more efficiency across the organization. And then it got into the world where we're like, [00:27:50] okay, well what about the cross marketing production of, you know, let's get [00:27:55] out of our own marketing silos and think through how do we [00:28:00] reimagine, let's say campaigns.
Chris Koehler: How would we start, you know, today? [00:28:05] Um, it may take like, Hey, we've got a new idea. Wanna do this campaign? It may [00:28:10] take six to eight weeks to get a new campaign out the door. [00:28:15] And if you, if you take AI and you optimize the [00:28:20] existing workflows that you have today, you might be able to shrink that down. [00:28:25] To three to four weeks.
Chris Koehler: Everything is like incrementally faster. But what we [00:28:30] realized was actually you need a system. You need to be on the same tools [00:28:35] that are gonna optimize this from start to finish. And you can't have one team [00:28:40] optimizing in, in OpenAI, another's on Claude, someone else is on Gemini, [00:28:45] they're all on different products.
Chris Koehler: And you're like, okay, well how are we going to share and drive [00:28:50] this? So we took a step back and we said, well. Actually in that process, [00:28:55] you might have multiple teams that are all responsible for a portion of the campaign. [00:29:00] Someone's got the ideation and the creative and the, someone built the brief, and then you've got the [00:29:05] media plan and you like, you keep going on and it's like broken up into lots of little [00:29:10] individual.
Chris Koehler: Tasks that go along almost like a conveyor belt. And [00:29:15] if you're lucky, that goes smoothly. But what often happens is like teams will work through and then they gotta go [00:29:20] back and it starts, and then all of a sudden this adds so much time around that. So if you optimize the [00:29:25] existing workflows that you have today with a ai, you can only get so much efficiency.[00:29:30]
Chris Koehler: But when I challenged the team and I said, okay, well what if I want a new [00:29:35] campaign in 10 days? No, that's not possible. I was like, why is it not [00:29:40] possible? What if you just reimagine how you do that? What if you put a [00:29:45] single individual that is gonna be responsible for driving that across the [00:29:50] organization and you put new AI tools in their hands and they can go build this [00:29:55] full thing with the support of others in the organization, but like get out of [00:30:00] their way.
Chris Koehler: Let them go figure out how to get it out the door in 10 days. That is [00:30:05] the transformation I think we're all gonna have to realize now. What [00:30:10] individual has enough knowledge to be dangerous, right? That can go do [00:30:15] that. What's the right, what's the right audience that we're going after? What's the right messaging?
Chris Koehler: [00:30:20] Where would we put this into market? How do we localize this? Like all of those things, [00:30:25] that's, those are new roles, right? We don't have, we didn't have anyone in the, in the organization that was like, [00:30:30] I'm gonna go do this from, from start to finish. So you're getting in a world where. [00:30:35] New role types are gonna be created.
Chris Koehler: The silos amongst the [00:30:40] organizations, even within marketing are gonna have to break down. And I think what we're gonna have [00:30:45] to do over the next 12 to 18 months is like, reimagine how we're [00:30:50] organized, right? Because the organization might actually, the way that we're [00:30:55] structured might actually be the bottleneck to drive to, you know, to getting better output [00:31:00] faster.
Chris Koehler: And that doesn't mean like what, what the scary part is when you talk like that. [00:31:05] It's like, oh no, here we go. We don't need as many people. And it is like, no, [00:31:10] actually we have a backlog of ideas and things that we would love to be able to go [00:31:15] do. I mean, I'm not, I'm not, I'm not sitting here being like, well, I'm so glad we can do [00:31:20] everything that, you know, we've come up with and brainstorm about the stuff.
Chris Koehler: The reality is we all [00:31:25] have to make trade offs of constraints. It's like, well, I'd like to do this, but this [00:31:30] one's more important so that back burners and we do this approach. Getting to a world where [00:31:35] you can actually drive more, I think is the thing that we've all been promising. I mean, Jon, we've been [00:31:40] in this space for a long time where we're like personalization at scale.
Chris Koehler: I mean, I've been guilty of saying that for [00:31:45] 10, 15 years. It's really, really hard. But I think there is a world where you could [00:31:50] get into where that's might be possible. Um, and you know, I think it's [00:31:55] a better customer experience. It's better for the company and the brands and that's where, that's where [00:32:00] I am sort of evolving over time.
Chris Koehler: But it's a, it's really hard for employees too [00:32:05] 'cause like it's all change. Right. And I think that's the piece that we're all sort of [00:32:10] grappling with.
Jon Miller: what I love about what you did at the end there, right? Was like you, you started mostly [00:32:15] talking about AI to drive efficiency. You know, let's streamline six weeks down [00:32:20] to, you know, 10 days and all that kind of thing. But the very. End, it's like, oh, and let's also use it [00:32:25] to deliver personalized journeys, one-to-one touches, you know, interactions, [00:32:30] um, which just was not possible before because of the complexity that's [00:32:35] about making our marketing more effective, not just more efficient.
Chris Koehler: Yeah. And I [00:32:40] think, yeah, and I, and I think there's like, the easy, the easy answer is to go into [00:32:45] doomsday scenario and be like, oh my gosh. Like everyone, no one's gonna have jobs like, you know, this is terrible. AI's [00:32:50] gonna do all of it for us. I'm not in that camp like I'm, I'm more of an optimist. I think, you know, [00:32:55] that we're, we're actually seeing.
Chris Koehler: Is we're gonna be, we're gonna drive a lot more [00:33:00] output. I think the question and the concern that I have for the craft [00:33:05] is just because we can doesn't mean we should create. [00:33:10] Right? And I think, I think what is gonna be interesting over the next couple years, [00:33:15] forever in this industry, content was the bottleneck.
Chris Koehler: Content was the [00:33:20] limiting factor with everything that marketing did. It is like we just couldn't create enough [00:33:25] creative or copy or offers or any of those things. Like it was just so hard 'cause you needed human [00:33:30] interaction and um, engagement as part of that, now we're gonna into a world where content is [00:33:35] like ubiquitous and free almost to some point, and how do you flip it on [00:33:40] its head so that you're using the most.
Chris Koehler: Valuable content the most, you [00:33:45] know, you're, you're, you're limiting those, I think that will be successful are the ones that actually pair back [00:33:50] how much they do versus, you know, just spout off more and more content [00:33:55] every day.
Jon Miller: I mean, I, to me it's back exactly back to that [00:34:00] personalization piece, right? The, the, the content is abundant where, and if we're [00:34:05] not smart, we're all gonna end up sounding the same. 'cause we're all using the same models. [00:34:10] What's gonna actually make us stand out and be different is the proverbial right thing at the right time [00:34:15] for each person using all the data intelligence that we have available to us,
Jon Miller: [00:34:20] you know. That to me is the, gonna be the real unlock for what, what AI can do. [00:34:25] So, um, well this, this has been an awesome conversation. Uh, we always [00:34:30] like to end with, um, just giving you an opportunity [00:34:35] to share gratitude. We talked about your origin story, but not all the [00:34:40] sidekicks and supporting cast that helped you get to where you are.
Jon Miller: So are there [00:34:45] any, uh, mentors you want to give a shout out to or, or others? It's kind of [00:34:50] who helped you along the way.
Chris Koehler: I mean, there's, there's tons. Um, you know, I wouldn't, I, I, we'd, [00:34:55] we'd be dishonest if we said we didn't get to where we are without a lot of help from, you know, from people all [00:35:00] along the way. You know, I think for me, just, I, I would say my family is the first one [00:35:05] dealing with the craziness that is, that is the life that we lead.
Chris Koehler: Um, when we have these, [00:35:10] these roles, um, I, I've had some great mentors. Um, you know, [00:35:15] Steph Carullo at Box gave me the opportunity to step into the, the CMO gig at at [00:35:20] Box, and, um. You know, I was, uh, very lucky, uh, to, to, [00:35:25] to step into that role. It's been fairly life changing. Um, I had a couple, um, [00:35:30] a, a couple mentors at Adobe.
Chris Koehler: Um, sadly, uh, they [00:35:35] both passed away, but, um, you know, that, that have. They gave me the [00:35:40] opportunity, one gave me the, gave me the guidance and the feedback when I [00:35:45] wasn't ready to hear it, but they were probably right. Um, and making me better [00:35:50] as a leader. Um, but also then giving me the opportunity to quite [00:35:55] frankly, get ahead of myself and figure out how to do, um, some of the roles that I was given.[00:36:00]
Chris Koehler: With the confidence that, uh, that I would figure it out. So yeah, [00:36:05] there's, there's great mentors along the way. Um, yeah, I've been very lucky [00:36:10] to, uh, to, to get into this role. And, um, I have a lot, a lot, a lot of help along the [00:36:15] way.
Jon Miller: Well, Chris, you know, thank you so much. I mean, I think there's just a lot of great meat [00:36:20] to chew on from this, from this call. Um, I think, you know, probably one of the ones [00:36:25] that stuck with me the most is, you know, when you're front, in front of the board, you [00:36:30] know. Don't talk marketing talk market. Um, and, [00:36:35] and similarly how you sort of talk about pipeline is, you know that that's you own [00:36:40] pipeline and you talk about it, but it's not the goal, it's just the path.
Chris Koehler: [00:36:45] Yeah. I mean, I think as when, when people get into this role, think about it as you're a business leader [00:36:50] driving a company. You're not a marketer, marketer's, your second hat. Your first hat is like, [00:36:55] I'm helping to drive the company forward. And in that role, my speak and my [00:37:00] language is very different than when I'm talking to my marketing team about the very specific components.
Chris Koehler: [00:37:05] And you have to play both and you need to understand which situation you're in.
Jon Miller: A hundred percent. [00:37:10] And then on the AI side, you know, I liked your line about right for humans, but optimize for [00:37:15] agents. I think that's like a, a really clean argument. [00:37:20] Um, and, and I just love the hopeful note on the end, right? Which is AI is not [00:37:25] about firing all our humans. It's about clearing the backlog, uh, and building [00:37:30] on all those ideas that we never had the hands to really do.
Jon Miller: So, [00:37:35] you know, with that, I think, um, you know, as you said, we should be simple, be bold and have [00:37:40] some fun with the story.
Chris Koehler: Hundred percent.
Jon Miller: Chris Koehler, thank you so much for [00:37:45] joining us.
Chris Koehler: Thanks, Jon. Appreciate it.
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