WEBVTT
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All right.
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Good morning, Kirk.
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How are you?
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Morning, Sheldon.
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I'm doing well.
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I'm up in Northern Ontario today,
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not in my usual little studio back home.
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But the weather's gorgeous, blue sky,
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the brilliant fall leaves are just
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something else.
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And I have a coffee here,
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as you can see.
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So life is good.
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Very nice.
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Doing good, doing good.
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You're at a conference.
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Yeah.
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A Paul Jennings conference.
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And any famous people show up?
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Well, actually, Wes Huff was there.
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He was one of the speakers.
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He spoke twice.
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Wes Huff.
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Nobody knows who he is, though.
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He is.
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And I think a lot of the people
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at the conference came because they found
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out Wes Huff was going to be there.
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Excellent, excellent guy.
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Former colleague of mine.
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And just a really go-to guy when it
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comes to ancient biblical manuscripts.
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All right.
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Well, we have a special guest today.
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I'm going to bring James in here.
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Welcome, James,
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all the way from the little island above
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France.
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Yeah, I guess that's right.
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That's how you guys consider your your
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country over there.
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We're just like we're the hat on top
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of the US.
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And so that's the fifty first state,
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depending on who you're talking to.
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all right so uh yeah so kirk uh
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lead the uh way with introductions here
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and then we'll get into that uh so
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james uh james uh knight has a blog
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called the philosophical muser and uh i've
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read some of his stuff listened to some
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of his stuff and i thought this would
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be a good guy to have and especially
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some of that perspective that you have
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james uh you know from an economics
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perspective even
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Today, we might talk about left brain,
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right brain,
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and how it affects different stages of
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your spiritual journey.
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And so James,
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why don't you tell us a little bit,
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first of all,
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just a little bit about yourself,
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so that we get to know you personally.
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And then I'd like to find out more
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about your own spiritual journey.
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But just for right now,
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just tell us about yourself.
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Yeah, thank you.
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It's good to be on the show with
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you guys.
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So my name is James Knight.
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As Kirk said,
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I have a blog called The Philosophical
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Muser.
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I live in a city called Norwich,
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which is quite near Cambridge.
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And I'm married to my wife, Sasha,
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and we go to a local gateway vineyard
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church.
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I've written eleven books to date,
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and they're all in Word documents at the
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moment.
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I'm about to try to get some of
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them published,
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and I'm currently building up my profile
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online and trying to get some interesting
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discussions happening and some making
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videos,
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and I've been blogging for since twenty
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twelve.
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So that's that's the most successful
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following I've got at the moment on the
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Philosophical Muser blog.
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I've also written some articles for the
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Adam Smith Institute,
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which is a think tank in the UK,
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economics and politics think tank.
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And I also write for a local church
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website called Network Norfolk,
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which is a shared site for all the
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churches in the area.
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So, yeah,
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that's a brief preview of my journey and
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who I am.
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Well,
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I was going to ask you if you
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had any special interests or hobbies,
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but by the sounds of things with all
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your writing,
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that would be your special interest and
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hobby there.
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You probably wouldn't have room for other
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things like fishing or hiking.
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No, I enjoy cycling and I weight train.
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As you can imagine,
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I love reading and I'm interested in
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people and I'm in leadership in my church.
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So yeah, it's a very busy life,
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but a really fulfilling one and it's
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always exhilarating.
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Yeah.
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So we,
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I was particularly interested in your
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article on the five stages of your,
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of a person's spiritual journey.
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So I assume there's a context to having
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written that and the context,
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a good chunk of that would be your
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own spiritual journey.
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So why don't you just tell us a
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little bit about your spiritual journey?
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Yeah, thank you.
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I've had an interesting life,
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and one of the books I've written tries
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to document this.
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So next year I turn fifty,
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and at that point I will have spent
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half my life as a non-Christian and half
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as a Christian,
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and obviously fifty is a very round number
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as well.
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So I tried to make that a thematic
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for one of the books.
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So it's part apologetics and part
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testimony and my journey.
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I've had a lot of experience in life
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not believing.
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I wasn't an atheist.
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I wasn't a Christian.
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I had a very traditional upbringing and in
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a very good home.
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And my main issues with religious faith at
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the time was that I...
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I thought that they were probably all
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man-made constructs.
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I was pretty sure that most of them
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were.
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But for me,
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it was clear that it was going to
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be unbelief, as in there isn't a God,
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or if any religion claimed to have the
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best case for an argument for being the
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truthful religion,
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it seemed to me to be Christianity.
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I had a very real fork in the
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road moment in nineteen ninety nine where
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I joined a local authority and that's
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where I met a friend who indirectly ended
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up inviting me to church and there I
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met some Christians and then the journey
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really did take on a different dimensions
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and then I became a Christian about two
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years after that.
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So yeah, it's been a really
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really exhilarating journey.
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I was very interested in philosophy and
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science and, as you mentioned, economics,
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which I studied formally before,
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and psychology.
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I was very interested and I'm interested
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in people and how they work,
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how the world works.
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So I had all of the
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all of the keen interest and just didn't
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have any encounter with God up until the
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point that I finally got to know who
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Jesus is.
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So yeah, half in each camp.
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So it's been an interesting journey and
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where I find myself now is on the
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cusp of that fifty years.
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So I've got good news and bad news.
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I just turned fifty this year.
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And so it's great.
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Like I didn't notice any major differences
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between forty nine and fifty other than
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ice packs and braces and different things
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like that.
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So just talk up on those things and
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you'll be fine.
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Yeah, I, uh,
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I could play soccer with my,
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the next gen,
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the previous or the younger generation up
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until about fifty, fifty, one, fifty two.
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And then, uh, then as Sheldon said,
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the ice packs and stiffness started to set
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in.
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now i think um what what we'd like
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to maybe dive into a little bit here
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is your five stages uh but before we'll
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probably look at them one at a time
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but why don't you just give us a
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just a few sentence summary of a preview
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of what these five stages are before we
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look at each one individually
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And, of course,
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I'll warn the audience that we may get
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off on another track from time to time,
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and that's fine.
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But why don't you give us just a
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brief preview of what these five stages
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are,
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and then we can dive into them deeper.
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Yeah, sure, I will do.
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So this is quite hot off the press,
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really, I think,
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because it's fairly fresh to me that I
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had this idea of these five stages.
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I feel like it was...
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one of the things where it just,
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it seems to come to one in a
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sense that it almost feels providential
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and I obviously think we should test these
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things.
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I just had this sense of spiritual stages
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and I started to tap into it a
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bit and I ended up with five and
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I wanted something that could capture
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where everybody,
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every individual might be
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somewhere on one of those stages.
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I thought that was quite interesting
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because I thought it would be compelling
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for people to think of themselves as being
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on one of those five stages.
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I thought about how many it might be.
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So the stage one I've called devoid,
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so that's spiritually unaware.
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uh it's a kind of spiritual dormancy where
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people you know people people can be
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intelligent successful they can be kind
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they can be all different things in this
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stage but their their lives are filtered
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entirely through material ego-based
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frameworks you know um and where there's
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no real engagement with spiritual reality
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i doubt there are many people that haven't
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heard of
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the spiritual realities that people can
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explore.
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But their lives are basically devoid of
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anything actively spiritual or anything
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that really matters to them in a spiritual
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sense.
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And one thing about these stages,
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they're going to comprise a broad
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range of people in them and we're going
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to have to consider i think that at
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each stage there are lots of different
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elements to that stage you know say for
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example if you're in stage one and you're
00:11:18.599 --> 00:11:20.239
getting towards stage two you're going to
00:11:20.259 --> 00:11:22.599
be in a different place from someone at
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:24.519
the beginning of stage one or the lower
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end of stage one so that's something we
00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:30.181
can we can talk about too um
00:11:31.321 --> 00:11:33.702
And then stage two I've called nascent,
00:11:33.743 --> 00:11:37.225
which is spiritually awakened.
00:11:37.284 --> 00:11:40.086
So this is what marks the beginning of
00:11:40.145 --> 00:11:41.486
spiritual curiosity.
00:11:44.229 --> 00:11:45.288
It could come after a crisis,
00:11:45.349 --> 00:11:48.191
it could come with a brush of beauty
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or some kind of unexpected sense that
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there must be more to life than this.
00:11:52.514 --> 00:11:55.775
There are a wide range of ways in
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which people can become spiritually
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awakened and spiritually aware.
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And it could be that they read scripture
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for the first time.
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It could be that they explore another
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religion.
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It could be something new agey.
00:12:08.048 --> 00:12:08.629
There are many,
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many ways to be in stage two.
00:12:15.274 --> 00:12:18.798
Stage three is what I've called validated.
00:12:18.857 --> 00:12:20.840
It's spiritually anchored in Christ.
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:23.081
So stage three is the point at which
00:12:24.102 --> 00:12:25.724
one becomes a Christian.
00:12:26.644 --> 00:12:28.184
So it's important, I think,
00:12:28.325 --> 00:12:31.126
that we do have that demarcation line
00:12:31.147 --> 00:12:33.208
where people are either, you know,
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recognize Jesus as Lord or not.
00:12:37.652 --> 00:12:37.932
So...
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it's where revelation leads to
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relationship and that can as you can
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imagine that can come in so many different
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ways and for so many different types of
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people um and within stage three there's a
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there's this newfound clarity of the
00:12:55.738 --> 00:12:59.019
transformative clarity of who of who jesus
00:12:59.419 --> 00:13:01.400
is and and that the christian faith is
00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.442
the is the true christian faith and i
00:13:05.482 --> 00:13:08.065
think again it's going to comprise an
00:13:08.264 --> 00:13:08.625
awful
00:13:10.190 --> 00:13:12.871
an awfully high number of people at all
00:13:12.912 --> 00:13:16.153
sorts of stages within that stage three.
00:13:17.554 --> 00:13:18.816
So then we get a bit bolder and
00:13:18.836 --> 00:13:20.756
we talk about stage four,
00:13:20.817 --> 00:13:23.339
which has two categories.
00:13:23.578 --> 00:13:25.159
And I've started to discern this from
00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:27.081
experience of Christians over the last
00:13:27.121 --> 00:13:28.022
twenty-five years.
00:13:29.062 --> 00:13:32.966
And so I've used the scientific caricature
00:13:33.046 --> 00:13:35.927
of right and left-brained here.
00:13:37.051 --> 00:13:38.692
As long as we accept that it is
00:13:39.673 --> 00:13:42.554
a caricature and it's got a lot of
00:13:42.595 --> 00:13:43.235
truth to it,
00:13:43.255 --> 00:13:45.437
but we don't want to have such a
00:13:45.758 --> 00:13:49.780
high resolution attachment to it that it
00:13:50.201 --> 00:13:53.724
loses its abstraction.
00:13:53.764 --> 00:13:57.385
So the right stage of stage four,
00:13:57.446 --> 00:13:58.027
this is where
00:13:59.576 --> 00:14:02.480
faith moves into a deep a sort of
00:14:02.539 --> 00:14:04.562
heart stage you know from from knowing god
00:14:04.601 --> 00:14:07.845
to truly encountering him in a in a
00:14:07.884 --> 00:14:10.767
more a deeper and intimate way more about
00:14:10.908 --> 00:14:13.929
holy spirit led deeper prayer deeper
00:14:13.970 --> 00:14:16.572
worship and then just really tapping into
00:14:16.592 --> 00:14:19.936
the to the deeper mysteries of divine
00:14:20.336 --> 00:14:21.857
presence i suppose you could say you know
00:14:21.878 --> 00:14:22.758
that it's
00:14:23.725 --> 00:14:25.107
It's deeply relational.
00:14:25.148 --> 00:14:27.269
It's often expressed through deep
00:14:27.289 --> 00:14:29.272
sensitivity, creativity.
00:14:29.852 --> 00:14:31.695
Words like the prophetic will often be
00:14:31.934 --> 00:14:39.964
used, the contemplative experience.
00:14:40.705 --> 00:14:41.546
Many may, in fact,
00:14:41.586 --> 00:14:42.506
will find this interesting.
00:14:43.996 --> 00:14:45.958
They find the traditional structured
00:14:45.999 --> 00:14:47.919
church life a bit too limiting because
00:14:47.980 --> 00:14:52.423
it's less about encounter and more about a
00:14:52.443 --> 00:14:53.884
routine and doctrine and stuff.
00:14:56.767 --> 00:15:00.769
But there are downsides to that too,
00:15:01.129 --> 00:15:04.691
this sort of hyper-spiritual way of being,
00:15:04.951 --> 00:15:06.130
I think, in stage four.
00:15:11.053 --> 00:15:12.974
It may be slightly less, and often is,
00:15:13.033 --> 00:15:14.254
less spiritually reasoned.
00:15:14.315 --> 00:15:16.716
So the stage four left, the other extreme,
00:15:17.777 --> 00:15:18.076
is...
00:15:19.303 --> 00:15:21.145
left brain being the more analytical you
00:15:21.166 --> 00:15:24.068
know represents faith in thinking more
00:15:24.109 --> 00:15:26.530
deeply the believer builds on their
00:15:26.591 --> 00:15:28.953
revelation with from stage three with with
00:15:29.173 --> 00:15:31.576
deeper reason with you know deeper
00:15:32.537 --> 00:15:34.779
pursuance of theological clarity and
00:15:34.820 --> 00:15:36.721
intellectual depth you know i'm sure we
00:15:36.782 --> 00:15:37.302
all know
00:15:38.283 --> 00:15:40.203
the types of people we're talking about in
00:15:40.244 --> 00:15:41.625
both sides of stage four.
00:15:41.684 --> 00:15:43.085
I'm sure we all know lots of people
00:15:43.105 --> 00:15:45.765
who we might think of in stage three.
00:15:46.307 --> 00:15:47.047
You know,
00:15:47.067 --> 00:15:49.727
this stage four left brain will be deep
00:15:51.568 --> 00:15:52.749
apologetics,
00:15:53.009 --> 00:15:57.692
maybe deeper exploration of church
00:15:57.731 --> 00:15:59.392
history, the overly cerebral,
00:15:59.412 --> 00:16:01.332
all of the kind of things that we
00:16:01.373 --> 00:16:04.394
know make up that kind of stage four.
00:16:04.414 --> 00:16:06.274
Now, I didn't say at the start,
00:16:06.315 --> 00:16:07.155
but one of the
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.619
of the things that i did say in
00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:11.539
the in the original video which i think
00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:15.080
was important was that it's certainly
00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:17.760
never our place to try to judge where
00:16:17.821 --> 00:16:19.520
any individual is this is this is
00:16:19.640 --> 00:16:21.942
something that is an interesting exercise
00:16:22.001 --> 00:16:24.841
and uh it's it's good to contemplate it's
00:16:24.861 --> 00:16:27.182
good to have something to to drive towards
00:16:27.222 --> 00:16:29.102
and pursue i think to realize that it's
00:16:29.123 --> 00:16:31.303
a journey of of constant growth and
00:16:31.323 --> 00:16:31.844
development
00:16:32.364 --> 00:16:35.327
But I'm never making any comment on any
00:16:35.609 --> 00:16:37.892
individual's personal stage.
00:16:37.912 --> 00:16:39.754
That's not what I'm ever trying to do.
00:16:39.813 --> 00:16:42.298
And I couldn't possibly hope to know.
00:16:42.337 --> 00:16:43.840
I think only God knows this.
00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:46.043
So we've been through the stages up to
00:16:46.062 --> 00:16:47.183
three where people are...
00:16:48.166 --> 00:16:49.606
encountering Jesus and knowing that He's
00:16:49.667 --> 00:16:49.986
Lord.
00:16:50.346 --> 00:16:53.548
We've got stages for left brain and right
00:16:53.567 --> 00:16:55.788
brain, you know, the deeply emotional,
00:16:55.808 --> 00:17:00.171
the deeply intuitive and also the deeply
00:17:00.211 --> 00:17:02.071
profound and analytical on the other side.
00:17:02.530 --> 00:17:06.073
And stage five is what I've called
00:17:06.532 --> 00:17:07.173
integrated.
00:17:07.232 --> 00:17:09.213
It's what you might call spiritually
00:17:09.233 --> 00:17:09.513
whole,
00:17:09.534 --> 00:17:11.295
which I'm sure itself would be a whole
00:17:12.055 --> 00:17:13.695
journey of a lifetime too.
00:17:15.510 --> 00:17:17.513
once one might get to such a stage.
00:17:17.554 --> 00:17:20.257
So this is the stage of spiritual
00:17:20.297 --> 00:17:21.157
wholeness, if you like.
00:17:21.198 --> 00:17:25.223
It's where the heart of stage four right
00:17:25.304 --> 00:17:29.148
and the cognitive side of stage four left
00:17:30.202 --> 00:17:32.685
meet in a kind of embrace, an integration.
00:17:32.965 --> 00:17:33.547
Believers,
00:17:34.207 --> 00:17:38.050
they are likely to embody both sides of
00:17:38.191 --> 00:17:39.251
that theology.
00:17:40.192 --> 00:17:42.315
And it's a more mature,
00:17:42.435 --> 00:17:44.718
integrated faith that reflects the
00:17:44.738 --> 00:17:46.259
fullness of Christ in a way that
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:49.020
But I think if anyone ever did get
00:17:49.060 --> 00:17:49.681
to stage five,
00:17:49.701 --> 00:17:51.361
they would be able to look back or
00:17:51.821 --> 00:17:53.422
they would be able to look behind at
00:17:53.461 --> 00:17:55.542
stage four, either side,
00:17:56.042 --> 00:17:59.703
and realize that it was a stage that
00:17:59.723 --> 00:18:02.305
they could progress beyond.
00:18:02.325 --> 00:18:06.286
So, yeah, you can expect that if you...
00:18:08.242 --> 00:18:10.164
If you met somebody in stage five,
00:18:10.204 --> 00:18:13.448
it would probably be someone who closely
00:18:13.528 --> 00:18:16.592
mirrors the character and the mind of
00:18:16.932 --> 00:18:20.536
Christ in a profoundly human and divine
00:18:20.556 --> 00:18:23.638
reflection, I think, of who he is.
00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:28.063
So that's a brief digest, really,
00:18:28.364 --> 00:18:31.326
of the five that I've put together.
00:18:32.082 --> 00:18:33.784
Yeah, well, thank you, James.
00:18:33.824 --> 00:18:37.189
There's probably different ways to
00:18:37.269 --> 00:18:40.051
classify the stages of spiritual growth
00:18:40.092 --> 00:18:41.974
within the scope of Christianity,
00:18:42.015 --> 00:18:42.154
but
00:18:42.790 --> 00:18:44.652
I think you provided one
00:18:45.311 --> 00:18:47.292
well-thought-through way of doing that.
00:18:48.093 --> 00:18:51.733
I find it interesting that you spoke about
00:18:51.794 --> 00:18:55.836
stage five as if possibly you've not yet
00:18:56.316 --> 00:18:57.556
arrived to stage five.
00:18:57.895 --> 00:18:59.076
Nevertheless,
00:19:00.777 --> 00:19:03.178
I think you still understand stage five.
00:19:03.198 --> 00:19:04.519
You still foresee that.
00:19:05.318 --> 00:19:07.599
Could it be that are you...
00:19:09.983 --> 00:19:12.806
there's probably maybe a no hard boundary
00:19:12.846 --> 00:19:14.767
between stage four and stage five,
00:19:15.307 --> 00:19:17.989
but one finds oneself at the edge of
00:19:18.128 --> 00:19:19.890
the boundary of between four and five and
00:19:19.911 --> 00:19:20.750
moving into five.
00:19:21.111 --> 00:19:25.034
Would you say you're experiencing maybe
00:19:25.854 --> 00:19:28.175
the shadow lands between four and five at
00:19:28.195 --> 00:19:33.378
this stage in life?
00:19:33.499 --> 00:19:34.279
I don't know,
00:19:34.579 --> 00:19:37.301
because I find it hard to comment on
00:19:37.342 --> 00:19:37.842
myself.
00:19:41.604 --> 00:19:41.784
I mean,
00:19:41.824 --> 00:19:42.684
you wouldn't want to be the sort of
00:19:42.724 --> 00:19:44.027
person that said, hey,
00:19:44.146 --> 00:19:47.090
I'm at stage five and I can see
00:19:47.111 --> 00:19:48.153
that people need to catch up.
00:19:48.173 --> 00:19:49.775
No one would want to do that.
00:19:49.855 --> 00:19:51.116
I certainly wouldn't do that for myself.
00:19:51.176 --> 00:19:54.701
I think I'm always mindful of St.
00:19:54.862 --> 00:19:56.344
Paul's journey as he
00:19:58.415 --> 00:20:01.457
as he became wiser and wiser and more
00:20:01.517 --> 00:20:03.077
experienced and mature in Christ.
00:20:03.678 --> 00:20:06.079
You'll notice that his humility increased.
00:20:06.980 --> 00:20:07.859
He starts by saying,
00:20:08.019 --> 00:20:09.601
I'm one of the worst of all sinners.
00:20:09.921 --> 00:20:11.321
And by the end of his life,
00:20:12.122 --> 00:20:14.123
when he's at his most mature and
00:20:14.182 --> 00:20:16.344
experienced and been through all that
00:20:16.364 --> 00:20:17.704
growth, he says,
00:20:17.785 --> 00:20:19.144
I'm the very worst of all sinners.
00:20:19.164 --> 00:20:20.405
So I think there's something in that,
00:20:20.486 --> 00:20:25.107
that perhaps one might sense that if one
00:20:25.147 --> 00:20:26.608
did get closer to five years,
00:20:27.184 --> 00:20:29.967
then one might become a much more humble
00:20:29.987 --> 00:20:30.227
person.
00:20:30.247 --> 00:20:32.327
Maybe even a self-referential problem that
00:20:32.428 --> 00:20:34.709
one wouldn't like to proclaim oneself in
00:20:34.729 --> 00:20:36.589
stage five if one ever got close to
00:20:36.651 --> 00:20:36.730
it.
00:20:36.770 --> 00:20:38.511
That might be something that's true.
00:20:38.791 --> 00:20:39.632
I don't know.
00:20:39.731 --> 00:20:43.273
I suppose I recognise myself certainly as
00:20:44.315 --> 00:20:46.855
a more cerebral person in the stage four
00:20:46.895 --> 00:20:47.257
category.
00:20:47.277 --> 00:20:50.719
And I think having married my wife,
00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:53.961
whose family are much more...
00:20:54.901 --> 00:20:57.241
intuitively hyper-spiritual,
00:20:57.922 --> 00:21:00.862
I was brought up in an Anglican
00:21:00.922 --> 00:21:01.521
environment.
00:21:03.442 --> 00:21:06.682
I think meeting a lot more people like
00:21:06.722 --> 00:21:08.564
that has been really useful to me to
00:21:08.584 --> 00:21:11.183
help me to formulate what might be the
00:21:11.203 --> 00:21:15.984
different stages and also to see how that
00:21:16.045 --> 00:21:17.846
plays out in people's lives.
00:21:17.885 --> 00:21:20.546
So I don't know.
00:21:20.726 --> 00:21:22.106
I would like to say that it's something
00:21:22.146 --> 00:21:23.807
we should all aspire to try to
00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:25.819
achieve.
00:21:26.121 --> 00:21:28.505
And achieve is even a loaded term,
00:21:28.525 --> 00:21:28.726
isn't it?
00:21:28.746 --> 00:21:32.512
Because it's all grace and favour from the
00:21:32.553 --> 00:21:33.756
Lord and revelation.
00:21:33.836 --> 00:21:34.257
But I think
00:21:35.805 --> 00:21:39.769
There's a sense in which to know a
00:21:39.828 --> 00:21:42.810
limit is to be aware that one can
00:21:42.851 --> 00:21:43.471
be beyond.
00:21:43.491 --> 00:21:45.594
I think that was what Habermas said,
00:21:45.634 --> 00:21:46.034
wasn't it?
00:21:46.074 --> 00:21:48.435
So, yeah,
00:21:48.836 --> 00:21:51.459
it's good to be aware that it may
00:21:51.858 --> 00:21:53.580
be something that we could grasp,
00:21:54.221 --> 00:21:56.123
but I would be reluctant to put myself
00:21:57.236 --> 00:21:58.616
How do you look to the arbitration of
00:21:58.656 --> 00:21:59.436
others perhaps?
00:21:59.836 --> 00:22:01.077
I think we have a preview.
00:22:01.218 --> 00:22:01.397
I mean,
00:22:01.438 --> 00:22:02.938
I think we see that in the New
00:22:02.978 --> 00:22:03.459
Testament.
00:22:03.499 --> 00:22:03.898
We do.
00:22:04.318 --> 00:22:06.500
It's not as if we're just starting with
00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:08.560
a complete ignorance of different stages
00:22:08.580 --> 00:22:09.441
of spiritual growth.
00:22:09.961 --> 00:22:11.842
But as we study the scriptures, we'll see,
00:22:12.041 --> 00:22:13.682
oh, yeah, there does seem to be,
00:22:14.123 --> 00:22:15.823
it seems to, in the words of C.S.
00:22:15.883 --> 00:22:16.263
Lewis,
00:22:16.344 --> 00:22:17.624
there are relationships that goes ever
00:22:17.663 --> 00:22:19.005
higher up and further in.
00:22:19.724 --> 00:22:21.145
And even if we're not there yet,
00:22:21.185 --> 00:22:23.145
we still know that there is a higher
00:22:23.205 --> 00:22:24.707
up and there still is a further in.
00:22:25.406 --> 00:22:26.847
that we can, um,
00:22:26.867 --> 00:22:28.107
that we're moving towards.
00:22:28.327 --> 00:22:30.388
And yet at the same time,
00:22:30.449 --> 00:22:31.368
we're aware we're not,
00:22:31.849 --> 00:22:32.829
we're not there yet.
00:22:32.869 --> 00:22:36.751
Or even there is a bit of a
00:22:36.811 --> 00:22:38.412
loaded term because it implies there's a
00:22:38.451 --> 00:22:40.472
point somewhere up ahead that you reach,
00:22:40.492 --> 00:22:42.453
but I don't see it as a point.
00:22:42.534 --> 00:22:43.993
I see it as a road that ever
00:22:44.095 --> 00:22:46.536
keeps going further and closer into God.
00:22:46.556 --> 00:22:49.116
Uh, let's go back to, uh,
00:22:49.136 --> 00:22:50.916
now let's go back and dive in to
00:22:51.376 --> 00:22:54.078
maybe a little more, um, in detail,
00:22:54.098 --> 00:22:54.939
slightly more detail.
00:22:55.900 --> 00:22:56.759
in the five stages.
00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:56.980
Now,
00:22:57.099 --> 00:22:59.320
I really like your description or your
00:22:59.381 --> 00:23:01.800
word or your name as devoid for the
00:23:01.820 --> 00:23:02.582
first stage.
00:23:03.721 --> 00:23:05.721
The reason I like that is that I
00:23:05.761 --> 00:23:08.522
think it actually describes a person's
00:23:08.583 --> 00:23:09.083
state.
00:23:10.483 --> 00:23:12.364
There's a lot that's missing there.
00:23:12.384 --> 00:23:15.505
It's not just devoid in their first pass,
00:23:15.525 --> 00:23:16.825
they might think devoid of what.
00:23:17.724 --> 00:23:19.546
But once you've crossed into the next
00:23:19.566 --> 00:23:21.125
stages, you realize, wow,
00:23:21.165 --> 00:23:24.186
there was a lot not there in the
00:23:24.207 --> 00:23:24.967
devoid stage.
00:23:25.776 --> 00:23:27.958
uh and i think that's probably the stage
00:23:28.077 --> 00:23:30.420
a lot of the average people could identify
00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.582
with because it's oh yeah for sure there's
00:23:32.642 --> 00:23:35.463
no real role for the spiritual life uh
00:23:35.743 --> 00:23:38.246
in spirituality i might not even believe
00:23:38.286 --> 00:23:40.887
in it um i question all that and
00:23:40.907 --> 00:23:43.069
they would identify more clearly with that
00:23:43.109 --> 00:23:46.512
but they might not realize the term devoid
00:23:47.133 --> 00:23:51.076
doesn't just mean um what i what this
00:23:51.115 --> 00:23:52.116
guy thinks i'm missing
00:23:53.077 --> 00:23:55.000
but it actually is a very real state
00:23:55.040 --> 00:23:57.483
devoid of real life.
00:23:58.384 --> 00:23:59.086
By real life,
00:23:59.145 --> 00:24:00.587
I'm talking about the life that Christ
00:24:00.729 --> 00:24:01.009
offered,
00:24:01.068 --> 00:24:03.732
not just the life that a fungus has
00:24:03.752 --> 00:24:04.913
as he sits on a log.
00:24:05.515 --> 00:24:06.375
Anybody can make it.
00:24:06.496 --> 00:24:08.138
Even a fungus can make it through life.
00:24:09.098 --> 00:24:11.220
but there's something a whole nother level
00:24:11.259 --> 00:24:13.080
so it's devoid of that it's devoid of
00:24:13.101 --> 00:24:15.481
the joy another whole level of
00:24:15.521 --> 00:24:18.663
appreciating beauty of nature um even
00:24:19.483 --> 00:24:21.345
music can speak to a person in a
00:24:21.664 --> 00:24:24.566
whole new way uh once they're no longer
00:24:24.586 --> 00:24:26.287
in that devoid stage is there anything
00:24:26.366 --> 00:24:28.528
else you'd like to say we probably don't
00:24:28.567 --> 00:24:30.249
need to spend a lot of time on
00:24:30.328 --> 00:24:31.148
a devoid stage
00:24:32.647 --> 00:24:34.368
before we move into the second stage.
00:24:34.989 --> 00:24:37.210
Can I also get a clarification?
00:24:38.029 --> 00:24:40.369
My understanding is that these stages are
00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:46.291
Christianity spiritual, not spiritual in,
00:24:47.352 --> 00:24:49.292
oh, I'm Buddhist, therefore I'm poor.
00:24:49.333 --> 00:24:51.653
Yeah, that's right, yeah.
00:24:53.826 --> 00:24:55.186
Yeah, so that's right.
00:24:55.906 --> 00:24:58.228
We are working under the proposition that
00:24:58.248 --> 00:24:59.548
Christianity is the truth,
00:24:59.669 --> 00:25:04.270
that Jesus is the true God through whom
00:25:04.290 --> 00:25:06.412
we can have a relationship with God,
00:25:06.892 --> 00:25:09.752
the Father and the Holy Spirit.
00:25:09.813 --> 00:25:10.894
So yeah,
00:25:11.054 --> 00:25:14.556
this is entirely laid out to say that
00:25:14.796 --> 00:25:18.596
everyone will be somewhere on that journey
00:25:19.178 --> 00:25:20.117
at one of those stages.
00:25:20.157 --> 00:25:21.179
Absolutely, yes, that's right.
00:25:24.107 --> 00:25:29.251
To say anything else about devoid, yeah,
00:25:29.352 --> 00:25:32.535
I suppose I would say that I was
00:25:33.915 --> 00:25:36.557
probably devoid myself when I grew up.
00:25:37.638 --> 00:25:43.123
I didn't have anything in my home or
00:25:43.143 --> 00:25:45.263
in my upbringing that was remotely
00:25:45.545 --> 00:25:48.027
interested in any kind of
00:25:49.530 --> 00:25:50.891
supernatural, spiritual,
00:25:50.911 --> 00:25:54.692
religious tenets or precepts at all.
00:25:54.711 --> 00:25:57.593
So I think for me,
00:25:58.932 --> 00:26:04.335
it was first learning that Jesus loves me.
00:26:04.615 --> 00:26:08.336
And I've said before in other videos that
00:26:08.836 --> 00:26:10.915
nobody actually told me just how loved I
00:26:10.935 --> 00:26:11.096
was.
00:26:11.115 --> 00:26:14.017
I remember sitting in the car with the
00:26:14.037 --> 00:26:15.897
friend I talked about earlier who
00:26:16.077 --> 00:26:17.198
introduced me to church.
00:26:18.178 --> 00:26:22.279
And the idea that God might exist has
00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:24.560
always been very attractive to me,
00:26:25.101 --> 00:26:27.682
but we just had this very honest
00:26:27.721 --> 00:26:31.084
conversation where he said that
00:26:32.309 --> 00:26:35.111
imagine a god that created the entire
00:26:35.211 --> 00:26:37.951
universe and then was willing to come down
00:26:38.271 --> 00:26:40.251
and live amongst us live as we live
00:26:41.051 --> 00:26:43.673
suffer the things that we suffer and
00:26:43.873 --> 00:26:46.574
reveal himself through that grace and
00:26:46.614 --> 00:26:48.374
humility and i and i remember just having
00:26:48.394 --> 00:26:51.835
this really eureka moment thinking wow
00:26:52.215 --> 00:26:54.836
yeah if there's a god that's that's i
00:26:54.855 --> 00:26:56.356
think that's the only god that i could
00:26:56.396 --> 00:26:56.856
possibly
00:26:57.890 --> 00:27:00.050
relate to a god that would do that
00:27:00.230 --> 00:27:03.230
it just it ticked the boxes and it
00:27:03.270 --> 00:27:05.551
made me realize that that's that's what we
00:27:05.592 --> 00:27:07.192
do have on often it still took some
00:27:07.231 --> 00:27:09.393
time to to give my life to him
00:27:09.413 --> 00:27:11.252
but yeah i would say i've been through
00:27:11.272 --> 00:27:13.594
the biblical stage and the getting to
00:27:13.614 --> 00:27:16.253
stage two was very exhilarating but yeah i
00:27:17.173 --> 00:27:19.154
it's as you say it's it's it's what
00:27:19.194 --> 00:27:21.355
you don't let in and what you don't
00:27:21.414 --> 00:27:23.455
consider and if you live your life
00:27:24.383 --> 00:27:27.665
without any spiritual awareness at all and
00:27:27.846 --> 00:27:29.146
not allowing anything in.
00:27:29.247 --> 00:27:36.973
That's what I'd say the void is, yeah.
00:27:36.993 --> 00:27:37.815
You're muted, Kirk.
00:27:40.182 --> 00:27:40.301
Yeah,
00:27:40.321 --> 00:27:41.363
it's pretty hard to know what you're
00:27:41.423 --> 00:27:43.805
missing if you've never experienced what
00:27:43.825 --> 00:27:44.486
you're missing.
00:27:46.708 --> 00:27:49.851
This next stage of awareness,
00:27:51.172 --> 00:27:53.233
it kind of relates to the topic of
00:27:53.273 --> 00:27:54.174
divine hiddenness.
00:27:54.194 --> 00:27:56.317
I was having a conversation with somebody
00:27:56.376 --> 00:27:56.817
yesterday
00:27:57.557 --> 00:27:59.179
And I argue that there,
00:27:59.679 --> 00:28:01.819
the call of God is actually out there
00:28:02.059 --> 00:28:04.422
that every person actually experiences the
00:28:04.461 --> 00:28:05.182
call of God,
00:28:05.622 --> 00:28:07.702
but may not be at first aware of
00:28:07.762 --> 00:28:07.863
it.
00:28:08.002 --> 00:28:09.844
Or there may be expecting the,
00:28:10.223 --> 00:28:11.105
if there is a God,
00:28:11.144 --> 00:28:13.046
this is how he would let us all
00:28:13.086 --> 00:28:13.246
know.
00:28:13.286 --> 00:28:14.886
He'd put a big sign on the moon
00:28:14.926 --> 00:28:17.428
or something, but, uh,
00:28:17.468 --> 00:28:19.328
because we look for the call of God
00:28:19.348 --> 00:28:20.289
in the wrong places,
00:28:20.349 --> 00:28:22.230
we may miss the real call of God,
00:28:22.990 --> 00:28:23.171
but.
00:28:23.760 --> 00:28:25.102
And by call of God, I mean,
00:28:25.481 --> 00:28:27.521
could God actually be interested in me?
00:28:27.721 --> 00:28:30.363
Is he actually maybe speaking to me or
00:28:30.423 --> 00:28:32.084
drawing me to himself?
00:28:32.124 --> 00:28:34.984
And how do I respond type of thing?
00:28:35.704 --> 00:28:41.646
But the awareness is when you begin to
00:28:41.767 --> 00:28:45.988
perceive maybe God is calling me.
00:28:46.028 --> 00:28:47.929
And I've experienced the call of God.
00:28:48.709 --> 00:28:50.650
i've spoken about in public places like
00:28:50.670 --> 00:28:52.451
for example nature like the invisible
00:28:52.550 --> 00:28:55.512
attributes eternal power and divine nature
00:28:55.553 --> 00:28:58.015
of god can be seen in what he
00:28:58.055 --> 00:29:01.616
has created in this in the material world
00:29:02.396 --> 00:29:04.818
there's something supernatural woven into
00:29:04.858 --> 00:29:06.240
it and have you ever felt a sense
00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:08.941
of awe or reverence and often they'll say
00:29:08.980 --> 00:29:09.961
well yeah i do but
00:29:10.782 --> 00:29:13.163
don't know exactly what that is what would
00:29:13.183 --> 00:29:16.846
you like to say uh james about the
00:29:17.066 --> 00:29:19.247
about the second stage yeah just to
00:29:19.267 --> 00:29:22.428
clarify that or highlight specific things
00:29:22.468 --> 00:29:26.089
about the second stage yeah well the
00:29:26.150 --> 00:29:29.290
second stage is going to have a a
00:29:29.391 --> 00:29:32.093
really diverse range of people in it as
00:29:32.113 --> 00:29:34.453
you can imagine um and i've i've been
00:29:34.493 --> 00:29:36.654
very involved in the discussions with
00:29:36.994 --> 00:29:39.415
people who uh are
00:29:40.455 --> 00:29:42.036
atheists attacking Christianity,
00:29:42.096 --> 00:29:43.737
people trying to explore the faith and
00:29:44.176 --> 00:29:45.436
genuinely, as you mentioned,
00:29:45.477 --> 00:29:46.317
divine hiddenness,
00:29:48.278 --> 00:29:52.019
can't understand why it isn't more obvious
00:29:52.058 --> 00:29:52.598
to them.
00:29:52.798 --> 00:29:57.059
And I think it's really interesting.
00:29:58.779 --> 00:30:00.019
What I learned, I think,
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:01.921
from a lot of these discussions,
00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:03.260
I was very active on some of the
00:30:03.280 --> 00:30:05.280
Richard Dawkins forums and stuff in the
00:30:08.262 --> 00:30:10.003
I had a lot of conversations with
00:30:10.064 --> 00:30:14.367
unbelievers and what I suspect is going on
00:30:14.528 --> 00:30:17.470
if we had some kind of algorithmic to
00:30:17.509 --> 00:30:18.310
say, you know,
00:30:18.330 --> 00:30:20.031
when people say all these different kinds
00:30:20.071 --> 00:30:22.294
of reasons that they don't believe,
00:30:23.354 --> 00:30:25.976
and criticisms of the faith and sometimes
00:30:26.076 --> 00:30:27.176
other religions and all the different
00:30:27.196 --> 00:30:27.458
things,
00:30:29.098 --> 00:30:32.421
it's become quite apparent to me that by
00:30:32.461 --> 00:30:33.162
and large,
00:30:34.201 --> 00:30:37.604
people believe what they want to believe
00:30:38.325 --> 00:30:42.910
and there are many driving forces behind
00:30:42.970 --> 00:30:44.570
and this this is true in politics and
00:30:44.911 --> 00:30:47.574
in economics in in all sorts of tribal
00:30:47.733 --> 00:30:51.857
beliefs that people wed themselves to um
00:30:53.660 --> 00:30:55.301
that doesn't mean that
00:30:58.040 --> 00:30:58.442
Obviously,
00:30:58.481 --> 00:31:00.904
they can acquire new information and they
00:31:00.924 --> 00:31:02.787
can change what they want to believe,
00:31:03.087 --> 00:31:04.869
but there are an awful lot of things
00:31:04.890 --> 00:31:06.531
that are driving what they want to
00:31:06.571 --> 00:31:06.873
believe.
00:31:06.893 --> 00:31:08.575
And I think it's one of the most
00:31:08.654 --> 00:31:11.358
liberating things for anybody to discover
00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:12.220
that
00:31:13.060 --> 00:31:16.142
what they believe is being driven by what
00:31:16.162 --> 00:31:18.682
they want to believe and how that feeds
00:31:18.741 --> 00:31:19.521
into their...
00:31:19.782 --> 00:31:22.262
It could be anything from the social
00:31:22.303 --> 00:31:25.884
status they're trying to acquire to the
00:31:25.963 --> 00:31:26.864
in-group mentality,
00:31:27.003 --> 00:31:29.164
the sense of belonging they're looking
00:31:29.204 --> 00:31:29.565
for,
00:31:31.484 --> 00:31:33.205
how it's convenient for their lives in
00:31:34.185 --> 00:31:35.145
numerous ways.
00:31:35.185 --> 00:31:37.747
And I think I started to also observe
00:31:37.767 --> 00:31:39.126
that most of the...
00:31:40.847 --> 00:31:42.049
most of the prominent,
00:31:42.109 --> 00:31:43.592
what you might call new wave atheists,
00:31:43.613 --> 00:31:45.055
or the people who had the biggest beef
00:31:45.095 --> 00:31:49.121
with Christianity, almost always,
00:31:49.181 --> 00:31:50.403
in my experience,
00:31:50.903 --> 00:31:52.707
were brought up
00:31:54.008 --> 00:31:55.548
as either they would call themselves
00:31:55.568 --> 00:31:56.990
Christians or they were brought up in a
00:31:57.029 --> 00:31:58.471
church environment.
00:31:59.152 --> 00:32:02.953
It's that kind of what Jung called an
00:32:03.013 --> 00:32:05.896
antiodromia, the tension of opposites,
00:32:05.916 --> 00:32:06.196
you know,
00:32:06.217 --> 00:32:09.138
the people who are angriest with the
00:32:09.159 --> 00:32:10.839
Christian faith, the people who are on,
00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:12.060
you know, online,
00:32:13.208 --> 00:32:15.409
wanting to bash religion and say that
00:32:15.450 --> 00:32:17.530
anyone who believes is just stupid and
00:32:17.550 --> 00:32:18.050
foolish.
00:32:18.692 --> 00:32:19.251
You know,
00:32:19.811 --> 00:32:22.034
there's a real animus to what they're
00:32:22.054 --> 00:32:24.414
trying to reject, I think.
00:32:24.816 --> 00:32:28.357
So Stage Two comprises so many different
00:32:28.377 --> 00:32:29.179
types of people.
00:32:29.979 --> 00:32:34.362
It's a really intriguing stage to try to
00:32:34.382 --> 00:32:35.383
delve into, I think.
00:32:35.442 --> 00:32:36.123
And, yeah,
00:32:36.143 --> 00:32:38.144
there are probably as many different types
00:32:38.163 --> 00:32:40.205
of people in Stage Two as there are...
00:32:40.951 --> 00:32:42.732
people people in it really you know it's
00:32:42.893 --> 00:32:47.997
uh but it's yeah it's i i think
00:32:48.017 --> 00:32:49.939
the most fruitful conversations in stage
00:32:49.959 --> 00:32:51.559
two tends to tend to be the ones
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:55.383
where people you know are giving giving
00:32:55.403 --> 00:32:58.306
christianity enough respect and i wrote
00:32:58.326 --> 00:33:00.106
this in one of my books that you
00:33:00.126 --> 00:33:03.190
know if you don't if you don't come
00:33:03.250 --> 00:33:04.912
into the subject of christianity
00:33:06.067 --> 00:33:11.307
with the utmost respect for the scriptures
00:33:11.327 --> 00:33:13.689
you're dealing with, the propositions,
00:33:14.308 --> 00:33:17.729
the level of theological discourse that's
00:33:17.749 --> 00:33:19.750
been offered by believing Christians.
00:33:21.210 --> 00:33:22.150
If you're not doing that,
00:33:22.210 --> 00:33:24.171
then you're holding something back,
00:33:24.211 --> 00:33:24.490
I think,
00:33:24.510 --> 00:33:27.290
because the subject itself is utterly
00:33:27.330 --> 00:33:27.990
enthralling.
00:33:28.090 --> 00:33:33.071
And for people who want to explore that,
00:33:34.173 --> 00:33:35.853
it's one heck of an adventure.
00:33:37.847 --> 00:33:38.928
Sorry, go ahead.
00:33:38.948 --> 00:33:40.009
Go ahead, Sean.
00:33:40.108 --> 00:33:42.289
I have two things.
00:33:43.330 --> 00:33:43.471
One,
00:33:44.832 --> 00:33:46.992
I'm in that space in my Bible in
00:33:47.012 --> 00:33:49.273
a year devotions where I've just gone
00:33:49.294 --> 00:33:50.974
through that journey with the disciples a
00:33:51.035 --> 00:33:51.654
little bit.
00:33:52.695 --> 00:33:54.176
Why do you speak in parables?
00:33:55.575 --> 00:34:00.140
And even in this second stage,
00:34:00.201 --> 00:34:02.103
I can sort of see the disciples sitting
00:34:02.143 --> 00:34:06.367
there, and they want to know,
00:34:06.867 --> 00:34:08.030
but they don't get it yet.
00:34:09.612 --> 00:34:11.655
And so there's a lot of that, like,
00:34:11.974 --> 00:34:14.657
okay, I know there's something more.
00:34:15.297 --> 00:34:17.518
All my preconceived, like,
00:34:17.739 --> 00:34:20.920
even in the midst of walking with Jesus,
00:34:21.081 --> 00:34:24.023
they're expecting Jesus to be doing
00:34:24.083 --> 00:34:25.583
something different than he's doing.
00:34:26.992 --> 00:34:28.693
And so there's a lot of that in
00:34:28.753 --> 00:34:29.494
stage two.
00:34:29.914 --> 00:34:30.255
Well,
00:34:30.735 --> 00:34:34.577
why are we struggling with suffering?
00:34:34.597 --> 00:34:35.938
Why do Christians still struggle with
00:34:35.998 --> 00:34:36.577
suffering?
00:34:36.657 --> 00:34:39.880
And why is this happening in the world?
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:41.400
Okay,
00:34:41.420 --> 00:34:43.782
those kind of questions need answers.
00:34:44.382 --> 00:34:46.503
And then there's also those feelings like,
00:34:46.523 --> 00:34:49.465
well, I'm also struggling with this.
00:34:50.565 --> 00:34:52.648
So I can see there's a little of
00:34:52.668 --> 00:34:53.588
that in stage two.
00:34:53.628 --> 00:34:55.829
And then the other piece I can also
00:34:55.869 --> 00:34:56.530
see a lot of,
00:34:56.690 --> 00:34:59.612
and this is just years of ministry where
00:34:59.652 --> 00:35:02.215
we're working through things with people.
00:35:03.335 --> 00:35:05.257
I can see people going between one and
00:35:05.318 --> 00:35:05.657
two,
00:35:06.778 --> 00:35:09.141
even in the midst of like a single
00:35:09.181 --> 00:35:10.442
day where they're,
00:35:10.842 --> 00:35:12.784
they're go from one to two and then
00:35:12.824 --> 00:35:14.005
they don't get the right answer.
00:35:14.045 --> 00:35:14.666
And it's like, well,
00:35:16.664 --> 00:35:19.789
and they get hardened for a little while,
00:35:19.809 --> 00:35:21.331
and then they might go back to two.
00:35:21.413 --> 00:35:24.396
And I can see people jumping those stages
00:35:24.657 --> 00:35:27.260
quite often in those conversations that
00:35:27.300 --> 00:35:28.063
I've had with people.
00:35:29.385 --> 00:35:30.365
One thing you know is...
00:35:32.393 --> 00:35:33.114
James,
00:35:33.594 --> 00:35:36.835
I was really insightful is that people
00:35:36.876 --> 00:35:38.356
believe what they want to believe.
00:35:38.516 --> 00:35:40.838
And I have done a lot of formal
00:35:40.858 --> 00:35:42.599
debates on universities.
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:44.880
And I would,
00:35:44.980 --> 00:35:46.740
I began to just simply in my opening
00:35:46.780 --> 00:35:49.081
remarks, just as I stood up there,
00:35:49.161 --> 00:35:51.483
I just informed them that I have learned
00:35:51.503 --> 00:35:53.184
that people believe what they want to
00:35:53.204 --> 00:35:53.623
believe.
00:35:53.744 --> 00:35:56.864
So just sit back, enjoy the conversation.
00:35:56.925 --> 00:35:58.045
And all I'm going to do is stir
00:35:58.065 --> 00:35:58.485
the pot.
00:35:59.487 --> 00:36:00.949
But in doing that,
00:36:01.028 --> 00:36:02.608
what happens is that people have a
00:36:02.668 --> 00:36:04.710
psychological resistance to being told
00:36:04.769 --> 00:36:06.329
what is true and what to believe.
00:36:07.951 --> 00:36:10.291
They come to a debate saying, okay,
00:36:11.952 --> 00:36:14.472
this guy's gonna say some stuff and I'm
00:36:14.552 --> 00:36:16.793
committed to not believing it, almost,
00:36:16.833 --> 00:36:18.094
though maybe not consciously.
00:36:18.134 --> 00:36:21.295
But when you put it on the table
00:36:21.476 --> 00:36:22.815
that people believe what you wanna
00:36:22.835 --> 00:36:25.436
believe, and I'm here to stir the pot,
00:36:26.367 --> 00:36:28.831
then the i i find they're a lot
00:36:28.871 --> 00:36:30.994
more open okay well i'm just going to
00:36:31.014 --> 00:36:33.219
enjoy it but in enjoying what they hear
00:36:33.739 --> 00:36:36.342
they actually become enter a state where
00:36:36.362 --> 00:36:37.806
they can digest what you're saying
00:36:38.628 --> 00:36:40.409
But another important thing I think in the
00:36:40.429 --> 00:36:43.132
awareness stage is dealing with the
00:36:43.273 --> 00:36:45.173
reasons why they're believing what they
00:36:45.213 --> 00:36:45.733
believe.
00:36:46.474 --> 00:36:49.818
And sometimes the way to deal with that
00:36:49.838 --> 00:36:52.179
seems to be asking the right questions,
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:54.001
asking them how,
00:36:54.601 --> 00:36:57.322
why do you find yourself resistant to this
00:36:57.422 --> 00:36:59.445
or what, what is, and,
00:36:59.664 --> 00:37:01.266
and that will vary from person to person,
00:37:01.286 --> 00:37:03.588
but Socrates is, um, in Plato,
00:37:03.688 --> 00:37:05.528
Socrates is dialogue with some of the
00:37:05.548 --> 00:37:06.769
other people like youth of pro,
00:37:06.789 --> 00:37:07.391
for example.
00:37:08.054 --> 00:37:10.396
he developed the art of asking the right
00:37:10.476 --> 00:37:11.257
questions.
00:37:11.498 --> 00:37:13.318
And so from a Christian perspective,
00:37:13.338 --> 00:37:15.501
let's say we're in stage three or four
00:37:15.561 --> 00:37:17.663
or five that we wanna reach out to
00:37:17.682 --> 00:37:19.003
the people in the awareness stage,
00:37:19.043 --> 00:37:20.184
or even in the unaware.
00:37:20.545 --> 00:37:22.706
The unaware stage can be awakened by
00:37:22.827 --> 00:37:24.427
asking the right questions as well.
00:37:25.309 --> 00:37:26.429
So I like this,
00:37:26.590 --> 00:37:28.751
and I like this idea that you're
00:37:28.931 --> 00:37:33.235
presenting that there's an aware stage and
00:37:33.335 --> 00:37:33.755
we can't,
00:37:35.068 --> 00:37:37.992
We can't necessarily make a person move
00:37:38.032 --> 00:37:38.692
ahead in that.
00:37:38.751 --> 00:37:40.693
It's gotta be, I think,
00:37:40.974 --> 00:37:43.576
the Holy Spirit or God working within that
00:37:43.615 --> 00:37:44.297
person's heart.
00:37:45.184 --> 00:37:45.625
Definitely.
00:37:45.885 --> 00:37:46.766
Yeah, that's right.
00:37:47.025 --> 00:37:47.445
Definitely.
00:37:48.286 --> 00:37:49.588
That's one of the things that a lot
00:37:49.628 --> 00:37:51.188
of people who are exploring,
00:37:51.768 --> 00:37:53.030
they do get a bit frustrated with it,
00:37:53.050 --> 00:37:54.871
but it's also, I think,
00:37:55.530 --> 00:37:58.052
something that's necessary to keep telling
00:37:58.072 --> 00:38:00.173
them is that, you know, Paul says,
00:38:00.233 --> 00:38:01.574
only those who have the Spirit can see
00:38:01.614 --> 00:38:02.195
Jesus as Lord.
00:38:02.215 --> 00:38:05.257
And it's a supernatural transformation.
00:38:05.336 --> 00:38:07.777
It happens at the time when God chooses.
00:38:08.378 --> 00:38:09.358
It happened to me.
00:38:09.458 --> 00:38:12.221
It's happened to all Christians today.
00:38:12.561 --> 00:38:13.240
in some way,
00:38:13.561 --> 00:38:15.101
shape or form throughout their life.
00:38:15.442 --> 00:38:16.822
I happened to have one of those eureka
00:38:16.862 --> 00:38:19.302
moments where the Spirit just came upon me
00:38:19.342 --> 00:38:21.903
and it was a night and day difference
00:38:22.385 --> 00:38:23.784
within a few seconds.
00:38:24.965 --> 00:38:27.346
Other people have had very different
00:38:27.385 --> 00:38:27.925
experiences,
00:38:27.967 --> 00:38:29.407
many have had a similar experience.
00:38:29.447 --> 00:38:33.809
But yeah, the unbeliever,
00:38:35.509 --> 00:38:37.429
it's not actually possible for them to
00:38:38.090 --> 00:38:40.070
know the truth of Jesus Christ
00:38:41.021 --> 00:38:42.202
without the Holy Spirit.
00:38:42.541 --> 00:38:47.304
And Pascal had a really good point,
00:38:47.365 --> 00:38:48.947
I think, in his Ponses.
00:38:48.987 --> 00:38:49.586
He said that,
00:38:49.927 --> 00:38:51.608
and I think we're learning more and more
00:38:51.648 --> 00:38:52.869
about this sort of thing now with the
00:38:52.909 --> 00:38:53.730
way that people,
00:38:53.869 --> 00:38:56.251
the works of people like Jonathan Haidt
00:38:56.291 --> 00:38:57.753
and the idea of the elephant and the
00:38:57.793 --> 00:38:59.833
rider, that people are actually, you know,
00:39:00.394 --> 00:39:04.577
driven by stronger emotional needs than
00:39:04.657 --> 00:39:06.898
their rational self would care to,
00:39:08.179 --> 00:39:08.380
as he says,
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:10.021
reason is the slave to passion, you know.
00:39:10.998 --> 00:39:12.981
And we're learning more and more that
00:39:13.041 --> 00:39:15.402
actually when you try to convince people
00:39:15.422 --> 00:39:17.885
through an argument or a proposition,
00:39:18.965 --> 00:39:19.967
they're much more likely,
00:39:20.007 --> 00:39:21.248
even if they have a good argument,
00:39:21.288 --> 00:39:23.550
to feel more convinced by what they
00:39:23.570 --> 00:39:24.269
already believe.
00:39:24.309 --> 00:39:25.271
And we know this.
00:39:25.291 --> 00:39:26.851
We've seen this particularly in the
00:39:26.871 --> 00:39:27.632
political sphere,
00:39:27.652 --> 00:39:30.074
which is often more financially and
00:39:30.094 --> 00:39:32.317
emotionally charged even than religion.
00:39:32.856 --> 00:39:34.338
But yeah,
00:39:34.378 --> 00:39:37.121
so I think Pascal had a really good
00:39:37.161 --> 00:39:37.460
point,
00:39:37.521 --> 00:39:38.141
which is that
00:39:40.163 --> 00:39:42.023
Often the best way to help people come
00:39:42.063 --> 00:39:43.905
to that place where they can receive
00:39:43.945 --> 00:39:46.907
revelation and then reach stage three is
00:39:47.208 --> 00:39:49.510
you have to help them to believe,
00:39:49.849 --> 00:39:53.873
and in some cases actually that this does
00:39:53.893 --> 00:39:54.293
happen,
00:39:54.672 --> 00:39:55.914
that they feel like they've got there
00:39:55.934 --> 00:39:56.594
themselves.
00:39:56.775 --> 00:39:58.416
You're not trying to convince them to
00:39:58.436 --> 00:39:59.836
change their mind necessarily,
00:40:00.297 --> 00:40:01.858
or if it's your argument that changes
00:40:01.878 --> 00:40:02.358
their mind.
00:40:02.378 --> 00:40:04.199
Because let's be honest,
00:40:04.820 --> 00:40:07.983
no Christian came to Christ with...
00:40:08.722 --> 00:40:10.483
proposition one, proposition two,
00:40:10.684 --> 00:40:11.403
conclusion three.
00:40:11.423 --> 00:40:13.605
That almost never happens, does it?
00:40:13.644 --> 00:40:16.244
The reason we believe is because we've had
00:40:16.264 --> 00:40:17.706
that personal encounter.
00:40:17.806 --> 00:40:19.606
And I think all of the discussions and
00:40:19.626 --> 00:40:21.847
the debates and the arguments for and
00:40:21.887 --> 00:40:23.748
against God are really interesting,
00:40:24.288 --> 00:40:26.668
but they're not as compelling as being
00:40:26.728 --> 00:40:28.108
able to have that relationship with
00:40:28.128 --> 00:40:31.489
somebody and to listen to their doubts,
00:40:31.530 --> 00:40:32.750
listen to their concerns,
00:40:33.451 --> 00:40:36.150
and help them to arrive at the place
00:40:36.190 --> 00:40:37.672
that we know they need to be at
00:40:38.530 --> 00:40:40.451
to receive the revelation,
00:40:40.471 --> 00:40:41.891
which is a supernatural encounter,
00:40:41.971 --> 00:40:42.251
isn't it?
00:40:43.791 --> 00:40:45.931
Yeah.
00:40:46.012 --> 00:40:48.672
Okay, so the question is, as an apologist,
00:40:49.273 --> 00:40:51.793
then of what use are intellectual
00:40:51.853 --> 00:40:53.494
arguments or evidence or whatever?
00:40:55.474 --> 00:40:57.556
I think there's a mistake that I made
00:40:57.635 --> 00:41:00.177
a lot when I was young and naive
00:41:00.277 --> 00:41:00.717
was that
00:41:01.344 --> 00:41:03.286
With the right set of arguments,
00:41:04.166 --> 00:41:06.907
it was a matter of just simply showing
00:41:06.947 --> 00:41:08.588
them this and then they do that.
00:41:09.510 --> 00:41:11.190
It was like fixing a car.
00:41:11.471 --> 00:41:12.510
You've got the right wrenches,
00:41:12.530 --> 00:41:13.472
you go to the right place,
00:41:13.492 --> 00:41:15.193
you tweak that, and the car is ready.
00:41:15.813 --> 00:41:17.793
It's not that way, as you pointed out.
00:41:17.974 --> 00:41:18.494
However,
00:41:18.554 --> 00:41:20.976
there is a point I find in a
00:41:21.036 --> 00:41:22.657
person's life, in certain people,
00:41:23.297 --> 00:41:24.378
and as you might put it,
00:41:24.438 --> 00:41:26.039
depending on their left brain or right,
00:41:26.579 --> 00:41:29.061
there is a point where they actually want
00:41:29.521 --> 00:41:31.463
to have maybe a little more rational
00:41:32.063 --> 00:41:33.824
they're looking for they're looking for
00:41:33.844 --> 00:41:36.025
some rational justification maybe
00:41:36.065 --> 00:41:39.188
something just a little bit more solid or
00:41:39.289 --> 00:41:41.769
more intellectual to put their to to
00:41:41.829 --> 00:41:44.211
justify putting their faith in here and
00:41:44.251 --> 00:41:47.074
that's where i find the arguments are are
00:41:47.233 --> 00:41:50.476
useful but the arguments are not useful if
00:41:50.536 --> 00:41:53.538
they're not at that stage i think it's
00:41:54.038 --> 00:41:56.920
probably more important in general after
00:41:56.960 --> 00:41:58.561
years as an apologist to speak to the
00:41:58.601 --> 00:41:59.322
heart of a person
00:42:00.251 --> 00:42:01.632
rather than to their mind.
00:42:01.731 --> 00:42:03.434
It's not a dichotomy, mind you,
00:42:03.574 --> 00:42:06.596
but I will find that I will accomplish
00:42:06.657 --> 00:42:08.657
much more in general by speaking to
00:42:08.697 --> 00:42:10.900
people's hearts.
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:11.581
The emotion.
00:42:12.101 --> 00:42:13.382
If I could...
00:42:14.983 --> 00:42:16.824
Someday I would love to play,
00:42:16.945 --> 00:42:18.005
I don't play the violin,
00:42:18.025 --> 00:42:19.266
but if I could play the violin,
00:42:19.367 --> 00:42:21.748
a particular song that would speak so
00:42:21.809 --> 00:42:23.731
powerfully to a person's soul that they'd
00:42:23.911 --> 00:42:26.313
all put their faith in Jesus Christ,
00:42:27.393 --> 00:42:28.155
I actually think...
00:42:29.143 --> 00:42:31.206
that in some ways is pa i think
00:42:31.246 --> 00:42:33.891
god has used even a song to bring
00:42:33.931 --> 00:42:34.751
people to christ
00:42:35.458 --> 00:42:36.318
for certain people.
00:42:36.739 --> 00:42:38.380
It just touched their soul in a certain
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.742
way, and suddenly, as Jesus says,
00:42:40.902 --> 00:42:42.663
no one comes to the Son unless the
00:42:42.682 --> 00:42:44.083
Father draws that person.
00:42:44.643 --> 00:42:46.666
But sometimes the Father draws that person
00:42:46.945 --> 00:42:48.427
through music, through nature,
00:42:48.827 --> 00:42:49.467
through intellectual,
00:42:49.507 --> 00:42:51.309
but it'll always draw them to Christ,
00:42:51.369 --> 00:42:52.710
not to some ambiguous,
00:42:53.289 --> 00:42:56.032
nebulous kind of pantheism or something,
00:42:56.052 --> 00:42:57.753
but it has to come to Christ.
00:42:57.793 --> 00:42:59.293
So let's say a person has put their
00:42:59.313 --> 00:43:00.074
faith in Christ,
00:43:00.735 --> 00:43:02.516
and they're now in the next stage.
00:43:03.710 --> 00:43:05.813
Uh, what would you say about that?
00:43:05.914 --> 00:43:06.675
And, and do you,
00:43:06.996 --> 00:43:09.661
would you bring left right brain into the
00:43:09.681 --> 00:43:11.425
third stage or you you'd prefer to wait
00:43:11.465 --> 00:43:13.188
to the fourth or what would you have
00:43:13.208 --> 00:43:13.849
to say about that?
00:43:13.889 --> 00:43:14.210
James?
00:43:17.222 --> 00:43:17.443
Yeah, I mean,
00:43:17.463 --> 00:43:19.423
I would bring it into the third stage.
00:43:19.443 --> 00:43:21.164
I think Sheldon makes a very good point,
00:43:21.184 --> 00:43:23.445
which I also made in the video,
00:43:23.726 --> 00:43:26.206
the original video, which is, it's not,
00:43:26.766 --> 00:43:29.327
we mustn't think of it as an exact
00:43:29.608 --> 00:43:30.867
linear process,
00:43:30.907 --> 00:43:32.728
a creep from stage one all the way
00:43:32.768 --> 00:43:33.750
to stage five.
00:43:33.769 --> 00:43:34.909
You know,
00:43:34.929 --> 00:43:37.891
I think there are times when we will
00:43:38.010 --> 00:43:39.751
have particular strengths and expertise,
00:43:39.771 --> 00:43:42.373
which will tap us into certain areas of
00:43:42.652 --> 00:43:43.672
left and right brain,
00:43:43.713 --> 00:43:44.574
of the more intellectual,
00:43:44.594 --> 00:43:45.353
the more spiritual,
00:43:46.373 --> 00:43:49.155
There'll be places when we dip in and
00:43:49.275 --> 00:43:49.335
out,
00:43:49.356 --> 00:43:50.675
there'll be places when we're perhaps on
00:43:50.715 --> 00:43:52.617
the cusp of another stage and we're
00:43:53.018 --> 00:43:54.018
bouncing around.
00:43:54.737 --> 00:43:56.739
Life's a continual journey of exploration.
00:43:56.820 --> 00:43:59.141
I quite like the idea of the
00:44:00.501 --> 00:44:01.501
circumambulation,
00:44:01.541 --> 00:44:03.242
the idea that Jung talks about where
00:44:03.842 --> 00:44:05.143
There's a centre point,
00:44:05.164 --> 00:44:07.125
but we keep circling round it because our
00:44:07.184 --> 00:44:08.346
experience just keeps...
00:44:08.646 --> 00:44:09.746
There's nothing new under the sun,
00:44:09.766 --> 00:44:10.266
let's face it.
00:44:10.286 --> 00:44:12.387
So we're going to keep going back and
00:44:12.447 --> 00:44:15.429
round and encountering the same things to
00:44:15.449 --> 00:44:17.612
do with philosophical propositions,
00:44:18.092 --> 00:44:19.032
to do with suffering,
00:44:19.052 --> 00:44:20.313
to do with life challenges,
00:44:20.353 --> 00:44:24.715
to do with our own changes in status
00:44:24.755 --> 00:44:25.235
and stature.
00:44:25.255 --> 00:44:28.838
So, yeah, I think stage three is...
00:44:30.286 --> 00:44:31.507
It's the place where we've had the
00:44:31.568 --> 00:44:32.329
encounter,
00:44:32.648 --> 00:44:35.193
but I think as per the parable of
00:44:35.213 --> 00:44:36.034
the talents,
00:44:36.695 --> 00:44:39.637
I think it's not a place to stay
00:44:39.677 --> 00:44:41.300
around longer than one needs to.
00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:43.923
I think, I said in the video,
00:44:43.943 --> 00:44:45.465
and it's maybe a bold proposition,
00:44:45.505 --> 00:44:48.648
but I suspect actually the most...
00:44:52.340 --> 00:44:55.481
The majority of Christians are probably in
00:44:55.561 --> 00:44:59.083
stage three and haven't moved beyond that.
00:44:59.103 --> 00:45:01.344
Majority doesn't mean almost all.
00:45:01.385 --> 00:45:03.246
It just means there are more people in
00:45:03.266 --> 00:45:04.246
this context, I think,
00:45:04.266 --> 00:45:06.467
in stage three than the other stages.
00:45:06.507 --> 00:45:08.407
Because I think, you know,
00:45:08.507 --> 00:45:14.550
and this taps into why people don't make
00:45:14.570 --> 00:45:16.452
that transition from two to three,
00:45:16.492 --> 00:45:16.731
you know.
00:45:17.954 --> 00:45:22.519
What Christianity is asking of people to
00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:25.402
commit their lives to Christ, you know,
00:45:26.083 --> 00:45:27.304
it's life-changing.
00:45:29.947 --> 00:45:32.550
To take it to its full potential,
00:45:33.871 --> 00:45:35.653
requires an awful lot of courage.
00:45:36.153 --> 00:45:37.934
I don't think we talk enough about that
00:45:37.994 --> 00:45:38.516
as Christians.
00:45:39.956 --> 00:45:42.318
The courage to be transformed,
00:45:45.121 --> 00:45:47.043
the adventure of truth-seeking.
00:45:48.623 --> 00:45:50.364
Everybody is a unique individual,
00:45:51.206 --> 00:45:55.650
and that means that they have a potential
00:45:55.690 --> 00:45:57.871
for their own journey that nobody else
00:45:57.931 --> 00:45:58.512
has.
00:45:59.273 --> 00:46:01.193
God has especially created that person for
00:46:01.213 --> 00:46:02.235
a particular journey,
00:46:02.815 --> 00:46:02.996
and
00:46:04.204 --> 00:46:07.786
there is no greater adventure for that
00:46:07.826 --> 00:46:09.746
person, for that individual, to say,
00:46:10.547 --> 00:46:13.568
I am going to believe what's true in
00:46:13.628 --> 00:46:15.911
terms of whatever the proposition could be
00:46:15.951 --> 00:46:17.632
in front of me, whether that's philosophy,
00:46:17.731 --> 00:46:19.112
politics, science, whatever it might be,
00:46:19.193 --> 00:46:19.693
economics.
00:46:20.432 --> 00:46:23.114
I just want to know what's true about
00:46:23.275 --> 00:46:25.096
the world that's being created,
00:46:25.576 --> 00:46:26.677
the world I'm in,
00:46:27.356 --> 00:46:29.518
and wherever that leads me,
00:46:30.438 --> 00:46:31.780
will be my adventure.
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:32.121
Now,
00:46:32.942 --> 00:46:34.682
I don't I think that is a that
00:46:34.742 --> 00:46:36.425
is quite an unnerving proposition for
00:46:36.445 --> 00:46:38.447
people because people like their safe
00:46:38.467 --> 00:46:38.907
spaces,
00:46:38.947 --> 00:46:40.068
they obviously have all sorts of
00:46:40.688 --> 00:46:42.530
personality profiles in terms of the big
00:46:42.550 --> 00:46:46.074
five they have, we have, you know,
00:46:46.094 --> 00:46:47.295
different strengths and weaknesses,
00:46:47.335 --> 00:46:49.878
we have different levels of anxiety and
00:46:51.744 --> 00:46:52.826
It's a big ask.
00:46:53.025 --> 00:46:54.786
And I think, yes,
00:46:54.827 --> 00:46:57.168
there will be lots of different elements
00:46:57.228 --> 00:46:58.210
of stage three,
00:46:58.469 --> 00:46:59.990
but I don't think it's a place that
00:47:00.030 --> 00:47:03.813
we're invited to stay any longer than we
00:47:04.213 --> 00:47:04.653
ought to.
00:47:04.713 --> 00:47:08.956
I think it's a necessary stage and we
00:47:08.976 --> 00:47:10.597
should pass through it as soon as we
00:47:10.617 --> 00:47:10.898
can.
00:47:10.918 --> 00:47:13.059
And that's obviously a very complex set of
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:13.320
challenges.
00:47:14.271 --> 00:47:15.913
ways that we should do that.
00:47:15.934 --> 00:47:18.715
But it's certainly about tapping into our
00:47:18.795 --> 00:47:19.757
own potential.
00:47:20.217 --> 00:47:22.659
And I think if we allow,
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:23.380
as Jesus would say,
00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:25.221
allow the truth to set you free,
00:47:26.282 --> 00:47:29.204
we become liberated from worldly things as
00:47:29.244 --> 00:47:29.965
best as we can.
00:47:32.030 --> 00:47:33.913
we want to be moving on as fast
00:47:33.932 --> 00:47:34.434
as we can, I think.
00:47:34.454 --> 00:47:34.673
Well,
00:47:37.536 --> 00:47:39.940
you had said in the video that it's
00:47:39.980 --> 00:47:41.422
sort of like going from that milk to
00:47:41.442 --> 00:47:42.842
the meat when you,
00:47:43.003 --> 00:47:44.965
when you're starting to, okay,
00:47:45.166 --> 00:47:46.186
you were a child.
00:47:46.286 --> 00:47:46.847
Now you're,
00:47:47.804 --> 00:47:49.166
Now you're going to that next or you're
00:47:49.186 --> 00:47:49.585
a baby.
00:47:49.686 --> 00:47:52.248
Now you're going to the next step of
00:47:52.268 --> 00:47:53.869
starting to renew the mind and stuff like
00:47:53.909 --> 00:47:54.130
that.
00:47:54.210 --> 00:47:55.391
So I like that.
00:47:55.411 --> 00:47:56.831
Like, OK,
00:47:56.871 --> 00:47:58.693
this is an area where you can start
00:47:58.733 --> 00:47:59.574
to see some.
00:47:59.614 --> 00:48:01.896
Oh, you now have some teeth.
00:48:01.956 --> 00:48:02.516
Let's use them.
00:48:04.836 --> 00:48:07.998
I also think what you just said there
00:48:08.038 --> 00:48:10.219
also reminds me of the analogy of marriage
00:48:10.259 --> 00:48:13.179
that God uses throughout the scriptures.
00:48:13.739 --> 00:48:16.641
And you said something about in stage
00:48:17.001 --> 00:48:17.400
three,
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:19.260
you want to move into the point where
00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:21.121
I'm willing to go with the truth.
00:48:21.242 --> 00:48:22.222
I want to go with the truth.
00:48:22.282 --> 00:48:23.661
I'll be totally committed wherever it
00:48:23.702 --> 00:48:24.242
takes me.
00:48:24.943 --> 00:48:27.342
And this is very closely related to what
00:48:27.402 --> 00:48:28.503
a good marriage is.
00:48:28.583 --> 00:48:29.664
So a good marriage is
00:48:30.367 --> 00:48:32.367
which is what I think when God's using
00:48:32.387 --> 00:48:34.650
the analogy of marriage, it's all in.
00:48:35.510 --> 00:48:37.490
I've known marriages where they are
00:48:37.552 --> 00:48:38.092
married,
00:48:38.251 --> 00:48:40.974
but they still might burn a candle in
00:48:41.014 --> 00:48:43.014
the window for an old flame they had
00:48:43.054 --> 00:48:43.755
in the younger days.
00:48:44.436 --> 00:48:45.376
That doesn't work.
00:48:46.197 --> 00:48:47.677
And in the Christian analogy,
00:48:48.461 --> 00:48:50.762
they're willing they like the idea of
00:48:50.802 --> 00:48:52.422
eternal life they like the idea of
00:48:52.623 --> 00:48:54.704
confessing their sins but at the same time
00:48:54.724 --> 00:48:57.023
there's certain things they're holding on
00:48:57.083 --> 00:49:00.324
to that aren't very healthy at all say
00:49:00.704 --> 00:49:03.585
a moral thing or an attitude thing and
00:49:03.626 --> 00:49:05.106
so that's going to hold them back and
00:49:05.126 --> 00:49:07.027
it's going to keep them in stage three
00:49:07.067 --> 00:49:09.686
they'll never move on until they're ready
00:49:10.367 --> 00:49:13.148
to just uh to really be using the
00:49:13.168 --> 00:49:15.068
analogy of marriage it's it's a hundred
00:49:15.088 --> 00:49:16.588
percent in and you don't know
00:49:17.521 --> 00:49:19.782
where that's going to go down the road
00:49:19.922 --> 00:49:21.242
as far how deep it is,
00:49:21.302 --> 00:49:22.422
how far it's going to take you.
00:49:23.342 --> 00:49:25.143
But that analogy of marriage, I think,
00:49:25.163 --> 00:49:25.782
is important.
00:49:26.023 --> 00:49:27.804
I've seen a lot of people just stay
00:49:27.824 --> 00:49:30.264
in stage three, as you said.
00:49:30.284 --> 00:49:32.505
Yeah, that's really good.
00:49:32.724 --> 00:49:33.405
Just to add to that,
00:49:33.485 --> 00:49:35.525
I think sometimes I think Christians are
00:49:35.545 --> 00:49:38.385
quite uncomfortable talking about the need
00:49:38.405 --> 00:49:40.306
to progress because it can sound a bit
00:49:40.347 --> 00:49:41.867
like judgment.
00:49:42.467 --> 00:49:44.487
But I think if we were to...
00:49:46.293 --> 00:49:49.494
If we were to construct a five-stage model
00:49:49.534 --> 00:49:51.454
of anything that's worth pursuing,
00:49:51.494 --> 00:49:52.454
whether it be, I don't know, say,
00:49:52.494 --> 00:49:54.456
team management or, as you say, marriage,
00:49:56.376 --> 00:49:58.717
you wouldn't want to see people staying in
00:49:58.777 --> 00:50:01.297
stage three of anything else that's
00:50:01.757 --> 00:50:03.498
perhaps more concrete and specific,
00:50:04.237 --> 00:50:05.438
as you say, like a marriage.
00:50:06.237 --> 00:50:08.438
If people were just happy to sort of
00:50:08.498 --> 00:50:10.338
dwell in the realm of stage three,
00:50:10.778 --> 00:50:12.019
not put each other first as much as
00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:12.480
they could,
00:50:12.860 --> 00:50:13.400
not try and
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:15.221
help the other one grow as much as
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:17.282
possible in Christ,
00:50:17.402 --> 00:50:19.684
have relaxed attitudes towards certain
00:50:19.704 --> 00:50:24.007
values that marriage at its best upholds,
00:50:25.467 --> 00:50:26.829
as I said, with team management.
00:50:26.869 --> 00:50:29.431
So, yeah, I think absolutely.
00:50:29.791 --> 00:50:31.612
Why would we want to,
00:50:31.873 --> 00:50:33.454
if we got a hint or got a
00:50:33.514 --> 00:50:36.376
sense that there are stages beyond which
00:50:36.516 --> 00:50:37.697
we are currently residing,
00:50:38.077 --> 00:50:39.778
why on earth would we want to stay
00:50:39.838 --> 00:50:40.079
in them?
00:50:44.809 --> 00:50:46.510
We've got about ten minutes here before
00:50:46.550 --> 00:50:47.291
the top of the hour.
00:50:47.311 --> 00:50:48.532
We can stay a little bit longer,
00:50:48.552 --> 00:50:52.514
but James, do you have a cutoff?
00:50:52.574 --> 00:50:53.655
No, absolutely.
00:50:53.675 --> 00:50:54.695
Carry on.
00:50:54.735 --> 00:50:56.077
There's so much to unpack, isn't there?
00:50:56.117 --> 00:50:58.579
Kirk does have an eight-hour drive ahead
00:50:58.619 --> 00:51:01.199
of him, but that's okay.
00:51:01.521 --> 00:51:03.961
There's often a tailwind in the area that
00:51:04.021 --> 00:51:05.262
can help him get home sooner.
00:51:05.342 --> 00:51:06.884
The...
00:51:08.945 --> 00:51:11.246
So, yeah, let's move on to the four.
00:51:11.646 --> 00:51:13.469
I'm very interested in the left brain,
00:51:13.509 --> 00:51:16.150
right brain aspect of things because I
00:51:16.170 --> 00:51:19.293
think that's what is new compared to,
00:51:19.353 --> 00:51:19.532
like,
00:51:19.632 --> 00:51:22.295
angle scale and the different things that
00:51:22.355 --> 00:51:24.036
we've talked about in the past.
00:51:25.237 --> 00:51:25.458
Yeah,
00:51:25.478 --> 00:51:26.778
if you can drill into that a little
00:51:26.798 --> 00:51:29.240
bit, that would be great.
00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:30.201
Yeah,
00:51:30.221 --> 00:51:32.422
I think what's interesting about the
00:51:32.463 --> 00:51:35.025
divergences in stage four is
00:51:35.929 --> 00:51:36.829
Well, two things really.
00:51:36.869 --> 00:51:37.329
Firstly,
00:51:38.291 --> 00:51:40.050
it doesn't seem to me often that that's
00:51:40.751 --> 00:51:43.231
a particular path people consciously
00:51:43.291 --> 00:51:43.771
choose.
00:51:43.871 --> 00:51:47.313
I think when they start to get into
00:51:47.333 --> 00:51:49.213
the realms of stage four,
00:51:50.414 --> 00:51:53.474
often either because of family influence,
00:51:53.494 --> 00:51:55.016
their church denomination,
00:51:55.556 --> 00:51:57.836
They're different, varying backgrounds.
00:51:58.418 --> 00:52:00.398
They tend to naturally fall, I think,
00:52:00.478 --> 00:52:01.838
into one of the two camps.
00:52:01.878 --> 00:52:03.280
I mean, they're the extremes, of course.
00:52:03.300 --> 00:52:04.740
They will be people in stage four who
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:07.541
can bounce somewhere between the two,
00:52:07.621 --> 00:52:09.782
but haven't fully got to the integrated
00:52:09.822 --> 00:52:11.344
part of stage five.
00:52:12.123 --> 00:52:14.646
Again, I'll give you a quote from Pascal,
00:52:14.686 --> 00:52:15.346
which I really like.
00:52:16.425 --> 00:52:16.804
He says,
00:52:18.085 --> 00:52:22.606
a man doesn't find greatness by being at
00:52:22.726 --> 00:52:23.768
one extreme or the other,
00:52:23.967 --> 00:52:27.469
but by touching both extremes and filling
00:52:27.528 --> 00:52:28.710
all that lies between.
00:52:28.750 --> 00:52:30.389
I think that's a really profound
00:52:30.449 --> 00:52:32.271
observation because
00:52:33.452 --> 00:52:35.394
And I'd say the same with politics and
00:52:35.414 --> 00:52:36.755
all of the different things that people
00:52:36.795 --> 00:52:38.036
tend to be divisive about.
00:52:39.117 --> 00:52:42.161
You ought to be able to understand the
00:52:42.221 --> 00:52:45.123
extreme position of your opponent.
00:52:45.483 --> 00:52:47.907
It's very useful in apologetics to
00:52:47.947 --> 00:52:49.827
understand where the unbeliever's coming
00:52:49.869 --> 00:52:50.128
from.
00:52:50.568 --> 00:52:52.811
But for someone who's in stage four,
00:52:53.791 --> 00:52:55.072
I find a lot of the people in
00:52:55.492 --> 00:52:56.793
either side of stage four,
00:52:56.813 --> 00:52:58.655
they tend to be a bit dismissive,
00:52:58.715 --> 00:53:00.255
actually, of the other side.
00:53:00.295 --> 00:53:01.876
Some of the hyper-intellectuals might
00:53:01.916 --> 00:53:05.719
think that the super-spiritual right-brain
00:53:05.759 --> 00:53:07.460
people, well,
00:53:07.659 --> 00:53:09.581
they may have strange beliefs that don't
00:53:09.641 --> 00:53:11.302
accord with scientific empiricism.
00:53:11.322 --> 00:53:15.043
They may have things that make a good
00:53:17.184 --> 00:53:20.166
conceptual lever for atheists to want to
00:53:20.186 --> 00:53:22.108
bring down the faith and undermine it,
00:53:22.208 --> 00:53:22.507
you know.
00:53:23.414 --> 00:53:26.097
if they have certain beliefs that might
00:53:26.117 --> 00:53:28.519
not fall within the purlieus of empirical
00:53:28.539 --> 00:53:29.041
science.
00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:31.764
And I think the people on the other
00:53:31.784 --> 00:53:37.811
side, the hyper-spiritual, they tend to...
00:53:39.351 --> 00:53:41.452
perhaps not focus enough on some of the
00:53:42.853 --> 00:53:44.673
deeper analytical elements too.
00:53:45.914 --> 00:53:48.235
But equally the people on the
00:53:48.275 --> 00:53:49.836
hyper-analytical side,
00:53:50.516 --> 00:53:53.898
sometimes they hold back or they don't
00:53:53.938 --> 00:53:57.159
understand just how much of the Holy
00:53:57.219 --> 00:53:59.822
Spirit-driven life that we can have to
00:54:01.041 --> 00:54:03.922
by being able to empty ourselves more and
00:54:03.943 --> 00:54:07.425
more into hearing his word and his
00:54:07.485 --> 00:54:12.586
presence and maybe having more time in
00:54:12.726 --> 00:54:15.228
solitary contemplation and listening to
00:54:15.248 --> 00:54:15.449
God.
00:54:15.469 --> 00:54:16.188
So I think, yeah,
00:54:16.228 --> 00:54:17.829
that people naturally tend to...
00:54:18.746 --> 00:54:20.086
divergent to one of those.
00:54:20.106 --> 00:54:22.188
And I think they can look at each
00:54:22.228 --> 00:54:25.469
other with a bit of suspicion because that
00:54:25.489 --> 00:54:26.509
really explains, I think,
00:54:26.568 --> 00:54:28.969
why the need for stage five to try
00:54:29.010 --> 00:54:31.351
to integrate those two and to see that
00:54:31.391 --> 00:54:34.233
both extremes have really valuable
00:54:34.793 --> 00:54:35.672
elements to them,
00:54:35.813 --> 00:54:37.753
but they're not the whole potential that
00:54:37.793 --> 00:54:39.635
we have or can have.
00:54:41.567 --> 00:54:43.989
I've been looking at deconversion for the
00:54:44.009 --> 00:54:45.871
last five years and listening to a lot
00:54:45.911 --> 00:54:48.713
of testimonials on why people who were
00:54:48.753 --> 00:54:51.494
pastors, missionaries, seminary graduates,
00:54:52.215 --> 00:54:53.496
why they abandoned their faith.
00:54:53.516 --> 00:54:55.438
And as I listened to their testimonial,
00:54:56.659 --> 00:54:59.222
one thing that was strikingly absent from
00:54:59.661 --> 00:55:01.264
their description of what their Christian
00:55:01.304 --> 00:55:03.686
life had been like prior to abandoning
00:55:03.706 --> 00:55:04.146
their faith
00:55:05.425 --> 00:55:07.067
What was strikingly absent,
00:55:07.146 --> 00:55:08.228
now it might have been there,
00:55:08.248 --> 00:55:09.449
it's just that I didn't mention it,
00:55:09.550 --> 00:55:12.833
was experiencing the presence of God.
00:55:12.853 --> 00:55:15.577
And I think a lot of people might,
00:55:15.737 --> 00:55:17.139
on the left brain side,
00:55:17.179 --> 00:55:18.722
might see this as, well,
00:55:19.041 --> 00:55:20.344
and they would list all the things they
00:55:20.364 --> 00:55:21.804
believe, the statements of faith,
00:55:22.509 --> 00:55:23.389
at various points.
00:55:23.429 --> 00:55:25.110
They would even discuss arguments for and
00:55:25.130 --> 00:55:26.990
against the existence of God.
00:55:27.610 --> 00:55:30.692
But they never talked about God as if
00:55:30.731 --> 00:55:32.992
they had any relationship with him.
00:55:33.012 --> 00:55:35.313
It would be like a man divorcing his
00:55:35.373 --> 00:55:40.175
wife and citing a number of, let's say,
00:55:40.215 --> 00:55:42.016
logistical reasons for doing so,
00:55:42.096 --> 00:55:45.117
but never talking about the personal,
00:55:45.157 --> 00:55:48.057
emotional experience of that person that
00:55:48.097 --> 00:55:49.139
they once experienced.
00:55:49.699 --> 00:55:51.639
and so this is where when you're talking
00:55:51.659 --> 00:55:54.081
about the left and the right brain it
00:55:54.141 --> 00:55:57.864
seems to me that it's not it shouldn't
00:55:57.884 --> 00:56:00.266
as we progress through stage four maybe
00:56:00.326 --> 00:56:03.288
towards stage five there should be a
00:56:03.527 --> 00:56:06.610
bridging of those two or more often there
00:56:06.710 --> 00:56:09.072
a person might always be predisposed to
00:56:09.492 --> 00:56:11.253
maybe being cerebral another person
00:56:11.333 --> 00:56:14.315
predisposed to say an artist who's amazing
00:56:14.695 --> 00:56:17.016
amazing at conveying emotion or paintings
00:56:17.815 --> 00:56:19.297
But nevertheless, at the same time,
00:56:19.376 --> 00:56:21.257
both of them need to have a certain
00:56:21.277 --> 00:56:23.639
amount of the other aspects of things.
00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:24.119
After all,
00:56:24.139 --> 00:56:26.940
there are Christian fundamental truths
00:56:26.981 --> 00:56:30.163
that need to be embraced by both sides.
00:56:30.902 --> 00:56:32.864
And speaking of truth,
00:56:33.505 --> 00:56:35.005
I started to look at it as more,
00:56:36.005 --> 00:56:38.088
this came out in political discussions.
00:56:38.128 --> 00:56:39.367
People say, here's the left,
00:56:39.407 --> 00:56:39.989
here's the right.
00:56:40.829 --> 00:56:43.409
And I was not satisfied with left or
00:56:43.469 --> 00:56:45.050
right because I could see problems on both
00:56:45.150 --> 00:56:45.349
ends.
00:56:45.811 --> 00:56:46.771
But as a scientist,
00:56:47.010 --> 00:56:48.931
I recall back in physics,
00:56:48.972 --> 00:56:50.871
sometimes we would use polar coordinates
00:56:50.911 --> 00:56:52.713
where you have a center point.
00:56:52.833 --> 00:56:55.713
That's the that's the origin that would be
00:56:55.793 --> 00:56:56.813
analogous to truth.
00:56:56.853 --> 00:56:57.914
This is truth here.
00:56:58.454 --> 00:56:59.954
And you could go off too far in
00:57:00.054 --> 00:57:00.894
any direction.
00:57:01.454 --> 00:57:03.335
And how far you went off could be
00:57:03.436 --> 00:57:05.456
cited as far as a distance and polar
00:57:05.476 --> 00:57:08.056
coordinates and the angle as to in which
00:57:08.117 --> 00:57:09.737
direction did you really stray from the
00:57:09.777 --> 00:57:09.998
truth.
00:57:10.518 --> 00:57:11.798
But I think in stage four,
00:57:11.878 --> 00:57:16.001
we're actually converging closer and
00:57:16.041 --> 00:57:17.101
closer to the truth.
00:57:17.561 --> 00:57:18.802
And philosophically,
00:57:18.842 --> 00:57:21.704
I find it fascinating that Jesus said he
00:57:21.844 --> 00:57:22.864
is the truth.
00:57:22.943 --> 00:57:25.505
That is the one who defines objective
00:57:25.545 --> 00:57:28.686
reality, moral reality, spiritual reality,
00:57:29.168 --> 00:57:30.668
reality of beauty and everything else.
00:57:31.268 --> 00:57:33.230
And that's maybe where we start moving
00:57:33.250 --> 00:57:34.070
into stage five.
00:57:34.510 --> 00:57:36.190
And of course,
00:57:37.492 --> 00:57:38.793
what would you like to say about stage
00:57:38.833 --> 00:57:39.452
five, James?
00:57:42.543 --> 00:57:43.563
Well, if I ever get there,
00:57:43.583 --> 00:57:44.403
I'll say more.
00:57:49.164 --> 00:57:49.724
As you say,
00:57:49.784 --> 00:57:55.907
if we remember that we're going up through
00:57:55.947 --> 00:57:56.706
Stage Four,
00:57:56.786 --> 00:57:59.387
so by the time one might get nearer
00:57:59.427 --> 00:58:00.248
to Stage Five,
00:58:00.268 --> 00:58:03.148
there'll be already a stronger sense of
00:58:03.168 --> 00:58:05.128
the integration of potentially...
00:58:06.291 --> 00:58:07.333
two extremes.
00:58:08.474 --> 00:58:09.355
In a strange way,
00:58:09.394 --> 00:58:13.197
although stage five seems to be the big
00:58:13.378 --> 00:58:13.978
aspiration,
00:58:14.998 --> 00:58:18.021
it's almost the one I feel least qualified
00:58:18.041 --> 00:58:18.802
to comment on, really.
00:58:18.922 --> 00:58:26.548
I don't know.
00:58:27.469 --> 00:58:29.532
It would just be such...
00:58:30.295 --> 00:58:32.416
an astounding thing, I think,
00:58:32.456 --> 00:58:36.219
to encounter people in stage five.
00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:36.679
And of course,
00:58:36.699 --> 00:58:41.101
stage five would perhaps have a continual
00:58:42.083 --> 00:58:44.603
journey of progression in itself as we get
00:58:44.664 --> 00:58:48.286
ever closer to Christ.
00:58:50.586 --> 00:58:54.248
to reach a stage where the heart, mind,
00:58:54.528 --> 00:58:58.809
spirit, intellect, worship, doctrine,
00:59:00.351 --> 00:59:04.152
to be so woven together in a kind
00:59:04.172 --> 00:59:07.253
of a seamless tapestry of life experience
00:59:07.273 --> 00:59:10.695
would be quite a thing to encounter.
00:59:10.735 --> 00:59:14.356
And I think, yeah, just...
00:59:17.101 --> 00:59:18.543
If the video could do one thing,
00:59:18.583 --> 00:59:20.423
this discussion on the original video,
00:59:20.543 --> 00:59:22.605
if it could do one thing for people,
00:59:22.945 --> 00:59:24.367
I would hope that it...
00:59:25.106 --> 00:59:27.246
that it gives them pause for thought to
00:59:27.286 --> 00:59:30.949
think about the potential that we all have
00:59:30.989 --> 00:59:33.150
and that where we could try to get
00:59:33.210 --> 00:59:37.612
to if we sought truth in the way
00:59:37.632 --> 00:59:40.135
that we're encouraged to by Christ.
00:59:40.295 --> 00:59:41.414
And the other thing would be, of course,
00:59:42.295 --> 00:59:44.036
the awareness of the people in stages one
00:59:44.056 --> 00:59:44.496
and two,
00:59:44.556 --> 00:59:47.978
that there are other places to go.
00:59:48.018 --> 00:59:49.840
And I think one of the things we
00:59:49.860 --> 00:59:52.400
perhaps should say as well is,
00:59:53.603 --> 00:59:56.166
We talked earlier about the way that we
00:59:56.186 --> 00:59:58.706
can see some of the most profound truths
00:59:58.728 --> 01:00:01.889
about Christianity by its absence in other
01:00:01.909 --> 01:00:02.510
things.
01:00:02.650 --> 01:00:03.451
And I think, you know,
01:00:04.931 --> 01:00:06.733
it's like the C.S.
01:00:06.773 --> 01:00:08.833
Lewis line where he says, you know,
01:00:08.853 --> 01:00:12.916
I believe in Jesus not just by looking
01:00:12.956 --> 01:00:13.436
at the sun,
01:00:13.496 --> 01:00:15.978
but by all the things that the sun
01:00:16.099 --> 01:00:16.739
illuminates.
01:00:16.780 --> 01:00:20.021
And I think when we look at the...
01:00:20.847 --> 01:00:22.728
powerful light in this world,
01:00:22.909 --> 01:00:25.670
we also see its absence in the dark
01:00:25.710 --> 01:00:26.690
things in this world.
01:00:26.730 --> 01:00:30.692
And I think that's a really potentially
01:00:30.731 --> 01:00:32.152
inspiring thing for people,
01:00:32.612 --> 01:00:36.313
is to realize that the things that are
01:00:36.373 --> 01:00:39.516
absent are also great indicators of the
01:00:39.556 --> 01:00:44.498
power and the utility of Christ's truth.
01:00:44.538 --> 01:00:45.677
Because, you know,
01:00:46.018 --> 01:00:47.719
I'm sure you're tapping into this too in
01:00:47.759 --> 01:00:48.239
America,
01:00:48.298 --> 01:00:49.780
and we certainly do this in the UK.
01:00:51.385 --> 01:00:54.547
the the identity crises of people the the
01:00:55.088 --> 01:00:58.250
you know when when nietzsche as i'm sure
01:00:58.269 --> 01:01:00.351
you know when nietzsche said god is dead
01:01:00.371 --> 01:01:03.193
you know he wasn't celebrating the demise
01:01:03.213 --> 01:01:06.675
of christianity he was he was saying be
01:01:06.715 --> 01:01:08.416
careful what you wish for and what will
01:01:08.456 --> 01:01:10.918
come in to replace the death of god
01:01:10.938 --> 01:01:12.860
because it will be something
01:01:14.764 --> 01:01:17.204
It will be something that has its own
01:01:18.005 --> 01:01:20.766
demons and problems.
01:01:20.806 --> 01:01:22.846
And we're seeing this in abundance in the
01:01:22.885 --> 01:01:23.646
world right now.
01:01:23.666 --> 01:01:25.487
And that's why I hope that something like
01:01:25.507 --> 01:01:28.106
the Five Spiritual Stages will help people
01:01:28.126 --> 01:01:29.648
to reconnect with some of the,
01:01:30.088 --> 01:01:30.768
not just the truths,
01:01:30.788 --> 01:01:32.907
but the aspirations and the places that
01:01:32.927 --> 01:01:35.028
they can aspire to.
01:01:36.255 --> 01:01:39.036
when they can escape many of the things
01:01:39.076 --> 01:01:41.416
that are causing so much anxiety and so
01:01:41.456 --> 01:01:44.838
many identity problems and so much
01:01:45.597 --> 01:01:49.518
disconsolation with not having God at the
01:01:49.539 --> 01:01:51.239
heart of their life and not having a
01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:53.681
kind of a spiritual emphasis and awareness
01:01:53.740 --> 01:01:54.121
too.
01:01:54.380 --> 01:01:57.862
So I'm hopeful that people can see it,
01:01:57.942 --> 01:01:59.262
not just in the positives,
01:01:59.282 --> 01:02:01.922
but in what may be lacking in society
01:02:01.963 --> 01:02:02.222
too.
01:02:02.963 --> 01:02:04.344
It's not in a very healthy place,
01:02:04.364 --> 01:02:04.603
is it?
01:02:07.793 --> 01:02:10.094
I was thinking about stage five as being
01:02:11.315 --> 01:02:12.856
when Jesus would often talk about the
01:02:12.936 --> 01:02:16.679
kingdom and how it is.
01:02:25.525 --> 01:02:26.146
He's frozen.
01:02:26.266 --> 01:02:27.487
Is he frozen for James?
01:02:29.405 --> 01:02:29.965
Yeah, he didn't have frozen.
01:02:29.985 --> 01:02:30.766
I indeed thought, yeah.
01:02:30.945 --> 01:02:33.648
Okay, well, while he's freezing there,
01:02:34.489 --> 01:02:35.550
I'll just say one thing.
01:02:36.389 --> 01:02:37.731
When you mentioned the importance of this
01:02:37.771 --> 01:02:39.952
video and your original one,
01:02:40.474 --> 01:02:43.516
I was in stage three around the recent
01:02:43.777 --> 01:02:44.577
point in my life,
01:02:44.637 --> 01:02:45.657
when I was about seventeen,
01:02:45.697 --> 01:02:48.519
eighteen years old, where I was, say,
01:02:48.561 --> 01:02:50.501
the president of my youth group at church.
01:02:50.601 --> 01:02:52.884
I was president of the InterVarsity at my
01:02:52.943 --> 01:02:53.244
school.
01:02:54.195 --> 01:02:57.043
But yet, oh man, I could just see,
01:02:57.123 --> 01:02:57.746
is this it?
01:02:58.027 --> 01:02:59.311
Is this it for me?
01:03:00.393 --> 01:03:01.418
And it was discouraging.
01:03:02.846 --> 01:03:03.985
And if I had listened,
01:03:04.065 --> 01:03:05.487
if I had listened to a video of
01:03:05.527 --> 01:03:07.567
this discussion, such as we had today,
01:03:08.186 --> 01:03:09.126
or I'd seen your video,
01:03:09.246 --> 01:03:12.188
it would have actually been very helpful
01:03:12.228 --> 01:03:12.527
to me.
01:03:12.628 --> 01:03:13.907
So I think in one sense,
01:03:14.827 --> 01:03:15.547
it can be.
01:03:16.088 --> 01:03:17.188
And I think at that point,
01:03:17.268 --> 01:03:20.068
what broke me out of that stage three
01:03:20.088 --> 01:03:21.489
was something we already discussed,
01:03:22.048 --> 01:03:24.309
was this concept of daily, total,
01:03:24.730 --> 01:03:26.590
surrendering myself into the hands of
01:03:26.650 --> 01:03:28.309
Jesus Christ on a daily basis,
01:03:28.730 --> 01:03:30.331
looking for the guidance of his Holy
01:03:30.391 --> 01:03:31.371
Spirit throughout the day.
01:03:32.090 --> 01:03:35.235
And that broke the barrier between,
01:03:35.755 --> 01:03:37.257
I didn't even know about stage four or
01:03:37.277 --> 01:03:37.599
five.
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:39.460
I didn't know it existed.
01:03:39.581 --> 01:03:40.402
It was just stage three,
01:03:40.422 --> 01:03:41.364
and it was frustrating.
01:03:42.264 --> 01:03:44.086
So I think Sheldon's reading.
01:03:44.126 --> 01:03:44.728
Oh, there he is.
01:03:44.768 --> 01:03:46.309
Hi, Sheldon.
01:03:46.329 --> 01:03:46.891
My internet.
01:03:47.010 --> 01:03:47.431
What do you know?
01:03:49.947 --> 01:03:51.266
So I don't know what you guys have
01:03:51.306 --> 01:03:52.527
said for the last minute.
01:03:52.688 --> 01:03:54.007
I don't know what I was saying when
01:03:54.108 --> 01:03:54.728
I left.
01:03:56.728 --> 01:03:58.630
Where was that?
01:03:58.690 --> 01:03:58.969
Okay,
01:03:58.989 --> 01:04:01.570
so I was thinking of stage five as
01:04:02.110 --> 01:04:04.550
sort of like the kingdom that Jesus talked
01:04:04.590 --> 01:04:08.813
about and how it was totally different
01:04:08.833 --> 01:04:10.952
than what anybody ever expected it would
01:04:10.992 --> 01:04:11.213
be.
01:04:11.313 --> 01:04:12.813
And so when you think of the Beatitudes,
01:04:12.833 --> 01:04:15.333
when you think of all those areas where
01:04:15.353 --> 01:04:17.054
he'd say the kingdom is like this...
01:04:19.250 --> 01:04:20.951
And in stage four,
01:04:20.990 --> 01:04:25.692
you expect where you want to be is
01:04:25.791 --> 01:04:27.972
that, oh, I'm just like Jesus.
01:04:28.733 --> 01:04:32.914
I got to be the perfect that we
01:04:33.014 --> 01:04:34.135
strive to be.
01:04:36.057 --> 01:04:39.201
Then at the end, you're like a worm.
01:04:41.862 --> 01:04:44.186
And it's not that you've finally unleashed
01:04:44.266 --> 01:04:47.889
humility or you've reached peak humility.
01:04:48.289 --> 01:04:48.489
No,
01:04:48.570 --> 01:04:51.492
you've just actually experienced who you
01:04:51.652 --> 01:04:54.735
are in the light of sin and in
01:04:54.775 --> 01:04:56.257
the light of what?
01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:02.322
um what it would actually be to be
01:05:02.402 --> 01:05:05.063
living in that space of the kingdom and
01:05:05.143 --> 01:05:08.146
so uh that's what i think that stage
01:05:08.206 --> 01:05:10.427
five would be is like okay you're now
01:05:10.487 --> 01:05:13.467
there and it's not like enlightenment but
01:05:13.648 --> 01:05:16.630
it has that aspect of it's like you're
01:05:16.650 --> 01:05:20.572
not going to see this until that that
01:05:20.632 --> 01:05:21.813
time when um
01:05:23.331 --> 01:05:25.952
when you've actually entered that space.
01:05:26.713 --> 01:05:29.494
And so I was just thinking of that
01:05:29.594 --> 01:05:30.934
and I'm throwing it out there.
01:05:31.036 --> 01:05:32.135
I don't know if that's what you were
01:05:32.155 --> 01:05:35.458
thinking at all, but yeah.
01:05:35.518 --> 01:05:37.139
Yeah, I think that's right.
01:05:37.179 --> 01:05:38.139
And I think we...
01:05:40.048 --> 01:05:41.550
When we talk about the extremes of left
01:05:41.590 --> 01:05:42.050
and right,
01:05:42.090 --> 01:05:44.550
which pervade society and all sorts of
01:05:44.590 --> 01:05:44.951
subjects,
01:05:45.030 --> 01:05:47.911
I think on this adventure with Christ,
01:05:49.152 --> 01:05:51.432
we've talked a lot about the relationship,
01:05:51.472 --> 01:05:52.773
the heart-based element.
01:05:53.173 --> 01:05:54.393
There is a head-based element.
01:05:54.414 --> 01:05:55.594
There is a heart-based element.
01:05:56.215 --> 01:05:57.235
Both are important.
01:05:57.775 --> 01:05:59.456
We're called to be able to defend our
01:05:59.496 --> 01:05:59.755
faith.
01:05:59.775 --> 01:06:03.518
We're called to be able to explain why
01:06:03.577 --> 01:06:05.338
we believe and what are the rational
01:06:05.398 --> 01:06:06.559
justifications for that.
01:06:06.619 --> 01:06:08.539
We're also called to simulate the
01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:09.380
qualities of
01:06:10.059 --> 01:06:11.780
a marriage, a relationship,
01:06:12.141 --> 01:06:14.782
and grow in Christ in that way too.
01:06:14.882 --> 01:06:19.326
So stage five has to inevitably
01:06:20.126 --> 01:06:23.128
encapsulate both of those qualities at
01:06:23.748 --> 01:06:24.250
their best,
01:06:24.289 --> 01:06:28.192
because one is incomplete without both
01:06:28.251 --> 01:06:28.612
elements.
01:06:30.014 --> 01:06:32.554
You're likely to stay in a stage three
01:06:32.614 --> 01:06:35.376
or four unless you can integrate the two.
01:06:35.476 --> 01:06:36.677
And that's the other thing as well,
01:06:36.697 --> 01:06:37.579
when people talk about,
01:06:37.938 --> 01:06:38.739
when people want to
01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:41.481
to pin us down on why we believe
01:06:41.521 --> 01:06:42.983
and they're looking sometimes looking for
01:06:43.103 --> 01:06:44.764
arguments for why they should believe
01:06:44.784 --> 01:06:47.126
sometimes they're just wanting to to
01:06:47.146 --> 01:06:50.349
criticize why why we believe that they
01:06:50.369 --> 01:06:51.951
might say that there's a lot of evidence
01:06:51.971 --> 01:06:53.592
for god in their opinion and things like
01:06:53.632 --> 01:06:55.514
that um but
01:06:57.543 --> 01:06:59.202
I think it's important for a Christian to
01:06:59.282 --> 01:07:03.144
acknowledge that what we believe is all of
01:07:03.164 --> 01:07:05.485
the things that we've discussed and more.
01:07:06.505 --> 01:07:08.485
It's a supernatural relationship with the
01:07:08.525 --> 01:07:09.766
Holy Spirit inside us.
01:07:10.266 --> 01:07:12.246
It's a lot of reasons that we have
01:07:12.266 --> 01:07:12.907
for belief.
01:07:13.286 --> 01:07:14.907
It's a lot of experience.
01:07:15.387 --> 01:07:17.748
And I guess the best term I can
01:07:17.789 --> 01:07:19.349
come up with for it would be worldview.
01:07:21.128 --> 01:07:23.550
It's a worldview based on so many
01:07:23.590 --> 01:07:25.791
different elements of our experience and
01:07:25.831 --> 01:07:26.530
our growth
01:07:28.608 --> 01:07:30.309
the best defense we can have is to
01:07:30.369 --> 01:07:33.731
try to break down that worldview and
01:07:33.791 --> 01:07:36.653
explain to people as best we can the
01:07:36.833 --> 01:07:38.315
many, many reasons why.
01:07:38.635 --> 01:07:40.476
I couldn't possibly hope to provide
01:07:41.550 --> 01:07:43.291
the evidence that people are looking for
01:07:43.351 --> 01:07:44.994
just with a couple of succinct arguments
01:07:45.454 --> 01:07:47.235
or if I had a half an hour
01:07:47.255 --> 01:07:49.038
conversation with someone in a cafe or
01:07:49.057 --> 01:07:52.222
something, you know, and in doing that,
01:07:52.282 --> 01:07:54.804
it's about understanding the person,
01:07:54.824 --> 01:07:56.726
their experience and their journey and
01:07:56.806 --> 01:07:57.146
how,
01:07:57.887 --> 01:07:59.668
It speaks the truth.
01:08:00.309 --> 01:08:02.210
And if we try to oversimplify and just
01:08:02.311 --> 01:08:04.313
ask for quick sound bites as to why
01:08:04.913 --> 01:08:06.014
we might believe,
01:08:06.054 --> 01:08:07.896
then it's going to be inadequate to the
01:08:07.916 --> 01:08:08.556
task, I think,
01:08:08.596 --> 01:08:12.099
of coming up with a convincing reason for
01:08:12.119 --> 01:08:12.719
people to believe.
01:08:12.759 --> 01:08:18.583
It's a journey and it's a worldview.
01:08:18.663 --> 01:08:18.904
Well,
01:08:21.365 --> 01:08:22.686
I'm getting a bit antsy here at the
01:08:22.726 --> 01:08:24.667
thought of my eight-hour drive looming
01:08:24.747 --> 01:08:25.208
ahead of me.
01:08:26.377 --> 01:08:28.078
But I want to thank you, James.
01:08:28.318 --> 01:08:30.259
It's been a good conversation.
01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:32.100
And as I mentioned, when Sheldon was gone,
01:08:32.500 --> 01:08:33.701
just for the sake of Sheldon,
01:08:35.061 --> 01:08:37.542
it was something that I think a lot
01:08:37.563 --> 01:08:39.904
of people and myself back when I was
01:08:39.944 --> 01:08:41.085
in stage three and thinking,
01:08:41.145 --> 01:08:42.105
is this all there is?
01:08:42.926 --> 01:08:45.467
I think this video here hopefully will
01:08:45.847 --> 01:08:48.149
give people a taste or a preview or
01:08:48.810 --> 01:08:50.850
a hope that there's a lot more to
01:08:51.350 --> 01:08:53.912
authentic Christianity than just sitting
01:08:53.932 --> 01:08:55.554
around in stage three for the rest of
01:08:55.573 --> 01:08:56.134
their lives.
01:08:56.976 --> 01:08:58.158
Yeah, let's hope so.
01:08:58.637 --> 01:08:59.278
Yeah, thank you.
01:08:59.337 --> 01:09:01.618
It's been really good to meet and talk
01:09:01.639 --> 01:09:02.220
with you guys.
01:09:02.239 --> 01:09:04.260
And I really appreciate the opportunity to
01:09:04.480 --> 01:09:04.940
talk with you.
01:09:04.980 --> 01:09:06.180
So thank you for having me on.
01:09:06.921 --> 01:09:07.442
Our pleasure.
01:09:08.417 --> 01:09:10.018
And people can find you at
01:09:10.298 --> 01:09:13.600
philosophicalmuser.blogspot.com.
01:09:13.661 --> 01:09:17.304
And I know there's some other links in
01:09:17.344 --> 01:09:20.126
the sidebar to your YouTube.
01:09:20.225 --> 01:09:22.707
I've posted your YouTube link in the
01:09:22.747 --> 01:09:23.908
description on this video.
01:09:23.929 --> 01:09:27.011
So people go check that out there.
01:09:27.811 --> 01:09:31.095
And, yeah, you're in the writing process.
01:09:31.114 --> 01:09:33.356
You're interested in the publishing
01:09:33.396 --> 01:09:34.077
process.
01:09:34.136 --> 01:09:36.219
And so, obviously,
01:09:36.279 --> 01:09:38.199
if people subscribe to your stuff,
01:09:38.541 --> 01:09:40.402
that makes you look good.
01:09:40.702 --> 01:09:43.083
And so I recommend everybody go and do
01:09:43.123 --> 01:09:43.404
that.
01:09:44.164 --> 01:09:47.266
did that this morning and uh yeah so
01:09:47.908 --> 01:09:50.189
those of you who are interested in uh
01:09:50.350 --> 01:09:53.612
asking questions uh to kirk or myself or
01:09:53.752 --> 01:09:56.394
even james uh feel free to dump those
01:09:56.413 --> 01:09:58.475
in the comments or head over to
01:09:58.515 --> 01:10:01.118
kirkdurston.com and you can leave a
01:10:01.198 --> 01:10:04.220
message there for kirk and uh yeah head
01:10:04.239 --> 01:10:06.561
over to james's stuff and uh take a
01:10:06.582 --> 01:10:09.623
look at it it's uh very interesting uh
01:10:09.644 --> 01:10:11.784
how you've brought economics into writing
01:10:11.985 --> 01:10:12.086
and
01:10:12.706 --> 01:10:13.886
different things like that.
01:10:13.966 --> 01:10:16.328
And so I've been pursuing,
01:10:16.908 --> 01:10:19.628
perusing your stuff today and enjoying it.
01:10:20.529 --> 01:10:21.390
All right, everyone.
01:10:21.970 --> 01:10:23.770
We will be back.
01:10:24.190 --> 01:10:25.411
I don't know, in a couple of weeks,
01:10:25.490 --> 01:10:26.412
probably.
01:10:27.311 --> 01:10:29.832
I'm out of internet access next week,
01:10:29.853 --> 01:10:30.833
so I won't be around,
01:10:30.873 --> 01:10:31.673
but I know Kirk,
01:10:31.713 --> 01:10:33.994
you're dropping some other videos and
01:10:34.034 --> 01:10:35.414
stuff as we go here too.
01:10:35.534 --> 01:10:38.936
So, and you just dropped one last week.
01:10:39.216 --> 01:10:39.356
Yeah.
01:10:40.537 --> 01:10:41.979
I think, or the week before?
01:10:42.238 --> 01:10:44.060
Yeah, there's been a couple of
01:10:45.381 --> 01:10:46.122
videos that are,
01:10:46.502 --> 01:10:47.662
I'd say they were interesting,
01:10:47.743 --> 01:10:48.182
but I have a,
01:10:48.722 --> 01:10:50.422
a really big one coming up.
01:10:50.483 --> 01:10:52.243
It's on free will and what sciences
01:10:52.703 --> 01:10:55.043
sciences default position should be on
01:10:55.083 --> 01:10:55.543
free will.
01:10:55.864 --> 01:10:56.765
There'll be an article.
01:10:56.845 --> 01:10:58.564
I hope to finish it by sometime this
01:10:58.604 --> 01:10:58.864
week.
01:10:59.404 --> 01:11:00.565
So it'll be up by next week.
01:11:00.685 --> 01:11:01.886
And then immediately I want to make a
01:11:01.945 --> 01:11:04.145
YouTube video on that as well.
01:11:04.367 --> 01:11:05.287
So keep,
01:11:05.426 --> 01:11:08.447
keep your eye on for free will and
01:11:09.087 --> 01:11:11.847
what sciences default position should be,
01:11:11.948 --> 01:11:14.029
what their starting point should be on
01:11:14.069 --> 01:11:14.729
this issue.
01:11:16.177 --> 01:11:18.340
But really can science actually determine
01:11:18.380 --> 01:11:19.720
that because it wasn't already
01:11:19.761 --> 01:11:20.480
predetermined?
01:11:21.822 --> 01:11:22.363
We'll see.
01:11:22.603 --> 01:11:25.725
But I will say this, that science uses,
01:11:25.885 --> 01:11:27.546
makes decisions all the time and how they
01:11:27.567 --> 01:11:29.007
set up their experiments.
01:11:29.568 --> 01:11:31.989
And they certainly operate as if they have
01:11:32.010 --> 01:11:32.871
it, even if it is,
01:11:33.091 --> 01:11:34.311
if they deny that it is.
01:11:34.952 --> 01:11:36.252
So I want to dive into that.
01:11:36.393 --> 01:11:37.974
I dive into that article because we have
01:11:37.993 --> 01:11:40.615
to address what the objections are and
01:11:40.655 --> 01:11:42.957
what the most rational position to take in
01:11:42.978 --> 01:11:43.557
that area.
01:11:43.639 --> 01:11:44.979
And this will be more appealing to the
01:11:45.020 --> 01:11:45.520
left brain
01:11:47.193 --> 01:11:50.640
awesome awesome all right well we'll see
01:11:50.681 --> 01:11:53.649
you guys later and uh here's the video
00:01:19.474 --> 00:01:19.995
All right.
00:01:20.034 --> 00:01:21.036
Good morning, Kirk.
00:01:21.055 --> 00:01:21.456
How are you?
00:01:22.539 --> 00:01:23.219
Morning, Sheldon.
00:01:23.299 --> 00:01:24.081
I'm doing well.
00:01:25.121 --> 00:01:26.965
I'm up in Northern Ontario today,
00:01:27.305 --> 00:01:29.808
not in my usual little studio back home.
00:01:30.974 --> 00:01:33.495
But the weather's gorgeous, blue sky,
00:01:33.515 --> 00:01:35.575
the brilliant fall leaves are just
00:01:35.736 --> 00:01:36.936
something else.
00:01:37.177 --> 00:01:39.337
And I have a coffee here,
00:01:39.418 --> 00:01:40.197
as you can see.
00:01:40.257 --> 00:01:44.939
So life is good.
00:01:44.959 --> 00:01:45.180
Very nice.
00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:46.081
Doing good, doing good.
00:01:46.680 --> 00:01:47.841
You're at a conference.
00:01:48.402 --> 00:01:48.621
Yeah.
00:01:48.662 --> 00:01:49.862
A Paul Jennings conference.
00:01:49.983 --> 00:01:52.644
And any famous people show up?
00:01:53.772 --> 00:01:56.093
Well, actually, Wes Huff was there.
00:01:56.253 --> 00:01:57.313
He was one of the speakers.
00:01:57.352 --> 00:01:58.013
He spoke twice.
00:01:58.052 --> 00:01:58.472
Wes Huff.
00:01:58.492 --> 00:02:01.153
Nobody knows who he is, though.
00:02:01.394 --> 00:02:01.733
He is.
00:02:01.914 --> 00:02:03.213
And I think a lot of the people
00:02:03.233 --> 00:02:05.275
at the conference came because they found
00:02:05.314 --> 00:02:06.894
out Wes Huff was going to be there.
00:02:07.415 --> 00:02:08.876
Excellent, excellent guy.
00:02:08.975 --> 00:02:10.276
Former colleague of mine.
00:02:11.096 --> 00:02:13.377
And just a really go-to guy when it
00:02:13.396 --> 00:02:15.477
comes to ancient biblical manuscripts.
00:02:17.897 --> 00:02:18.377
All right.
00:02:18.437 --> 00:02:20.377
Well, we have a special guest today.
00:02:21.139 --> 00:02:22.479
I'm going to bring James in here.
00:02:24.300 --> 00:02:25.040
Welcome, James,
00:02:26.181 --> 00:02:28.722
all the way from the little island above
00:02:28.782 --> 00:02:29.382
France.
00:02:31.062 --> 00:02:33.463
Yeah, I guess that's right.
00:02:33.484 --> 00:02:36.243
That's how you guys consider your your
00:02:36.324 --> 00:02:36.944
country over there.
00:02:37.185 --> 00:02:41.205
We're just like we're the hat on top
00:02:41.246 --> 00:02:41.866
of the US.
00:02:42.786 --> 00:02:46.347
And so that's the fifty first state,
00:02:46.387 --> 00:02:47.567
depending on who you're talking to.
00:02:50.457 --> 00:02:53.379
all right so uh yeah so kirk uh
00:02:53.659 --> 00:02:56.641
lead the uh way with introductions here
00:02:56.662 --> 00:02:58.622
and then we'll get into that uh so
00:02:58.682 --> 00:03:02.504
james uh james uh knight has a blog
00:03:02.525 --> 00:03:05.706
called the philosophical muser and uh i've
00:03:05.887 --> 00:03:07.247
read some of his stuff listened to some
00:03:07.288 --> 00:03:08.949
of his stuff and i thought this would
00:03:08.968 --> 00:03:10.750
be a good guy to have and especially
00:03:10.810 --> 00:03:12.670
some of that perspective that you have
00:03:12.730 --> 00:03:14.632
james uh you know from an economics
00:03:14.671 --> 00:03:15.552
perspective even
00:03:16.152 --> 00:03:18.373
Today, we might talk about left brain,
00:03:18.433 --> 00:03:18.913
right brain,
00:03:18.954 --> 00:03:20.694
and how it affects different stages of
00:03:20.735 --> 00:03:21.814
your spiritual journey.
00:03:22.694 --> 00:03:23.474
And so James,
00:03:24.096 --> 00:03:25.735
why don't you tell us a little bit,
00:03:26.475 --> 00:03:26.876
first of all,
00:03:26.895 --> 00:03:28.296
just a little bit about yourself,
00:03:29.977 --> 00:03:31.377
so that we get to know you personally.
00:03:31.418 --> 00:03:33.618
And then I'd like to find out more
00:03:33.658 --> 00:03:34.998
about your own spiritual journey.
00:03:35.019 --> 00:03:35.899
But just for right now,
00:03:35.998 --> 00:03:37.900
just tell us about yourself.
00:03:39.979 --> 00:03:40.699
Yeah, thank you.
00:03:40.740 --> 00:03:42.161
It's good to be on the show with
00:03:42.181 --> 00:03:42.581
you guys.
00:03:42.942 --> 00:03:44.201
So my name is James Knight.
00:03:44.282 --> 00:03:45.122
As Kirk said,
00:03:45.143 --> 00:03:46.463
I have a blog called The Philosophical
00:03:46.544 --> 00:03:47.183
Muser.
00:03:47.604 --> 00:03:50.385
I live in a city called Norwich,
00:03:50.406 --> 00:03:52.826
which is quite near Cambridge.
00:03:53.007 --> 00:03:57.129
And I'm married to my wife, Sasha,
00:03:57.370 --> 00:04:00.131
and we go to a local gateway vineyard
00:04:00.171 --> 00:04:00.771
church.
00:04:02.028 --> 00:04:05.411
I've written eleven books to date,
00:04:05.751 --> 00:04:09.133
and they're all in Word documents at the
00:04:09.173 --> 00:04:09.473
moment.
00:04:09.533 --> 00:04:11.375
I'm about to try to get some of
00:04:11.395 --> 00:04:12.936
them published,
00:04:13.235 --> 00:04:18.098
and I'm currently building up my profile
00:04:18.139 --> 00:04:20.120
online and trying to get some interesting
00:04:20.139 --> 00:04:21.661
discussions happening and some making
00:04:21.680 --> 00:04:22.100
videos,
00:04:22.141 --> 00:04:23.982
and I've been blogging for since twenty
00:04:24.021 --> 00:04:24.442
twelve.
00:04:24.461 --> 00:04:26.444
So that's that's the most successful
00:04:26.463 --> 00:04:27.783
following I've got at the moment on the
00:04:27.803 --> 00:04:28.884
Philosophical Muser blog.
00:04:30.302 --> 00:04:31.622
I've also written some articles for the
00:04:31.642 --> 00:04:32.963
Adam Smith Institute,
00:04:33.583 --> 00:04:35.262
which is a think tank in the UK,
00:04:36.223 --> 00:04:38.184
economics and politics think tank.
00:04:38.444 --> 00:04:40.964
And I also write for a local church
00:04:41.865 --> 00:04:43.545
website called Network Norfolk,
00:04:43.586 --> 00:04:47.487
which is a shared site for all the
00:04:47.507 --> 00:04:49.607
churches in the area.
00:04:49.666 --> 00:04:51.168
So, yeah,
00:04:51.648 --> 00:04:55.528
that's a brief preview of my journey and
00:04:55.548 --> 00:04:55.928
who I am.
00:04:58.086 --> 00:04:58.245
Well,
00:04:58.266 --> 00:04:59.627
I was going to ask you if you
00:04:59.668 --> 00:05:01.190
had any special interests or hobbies,
00:05:01.250 --> 00:05:03.153
but by the sounds of things with all
00:05:03.173 --> 00:05:04.634
your writing,
00:05:04.755 --> 00:05:07.660
that would be your special interest and
00:05:07.720 --> 00:05:08.220
hobby there.
00:05:08.261 --> 00:05:09.963
You probably wouldn't have room for other
00:05:09.983 --> 00:05:11.225
things like fishing or hiking.
00:05:13.389 --> 00:05:16.149
No, I enjoy cycling and I weight train.
00:05:17.130 --> 00:05:17.790
As you can imagine,
00:05:18.232 --> 00:05:19.992
I love reading and I'm interested in
00:05:20.052 --> 00:05:23.375
people and I'm in leadership in my church.
00:05:23.394 --> 00:05:26.377
So yeah, it's a very busy life,
00:05:26.396 --> 00:05:29.459
but a really fulfilling one and it's
00:05:29.519 --> 00:05:30.399
always exhilarating.
00:05:31.482 --> 00:05:31.601
Yeah.
00:05:31.622 --> 00:05:31.802
So we,
00:05:32.142 --> 00:05:33.845
I was particularly interested in your
00:05:33.884 --> 00:05:35.646
article on the five stages of your,
00:05:36.166 --> 00:05:37.548
of a person's spiritual journey.
00:05:38.250 --> 00:05:41.132
So I assume there's a context to having
00:05:41.153 --> 00:05:42.834
written that and the context,
00:05:43.274 --> 00:05:44.516
a good chunk of that would be your
00:05:44.716 --> 00:05:46.379
own spiritual journey.
00:05:46.418 --> 00:05:47.579
So why don't you just tell us a
00:05:47.699 --> 00:05:49.923
little bit about your spiritual journey?
00:05:52.579 --> 00:05:53.380
Yeah, thank you.
00:05:54.302 --> 00:05:55.822
I've had an interesting life,
00:05:55.862 --> 00:05:58.605
and one of the books I've written tries
00:05:58.625 --> 00:05:59.446
to document this.
00:05:59.485 --> 00:06:03.168
So next year I turn fifty,
00:06:04.149 --> 00:06:06.711
and at that point I will have spent
00:06:06.932 --> 00:06:08.874
half my life as a non-Christian and half
00:06:08.894 --> 00:06:09.434
as a Christian,
00:06:09.473 --> 00:06:11.055
and obviously fifty is a very round number
00:06:11.076 --> 00:06:11.375
as well.
00:06:11.396 --> 00:06:13.137
So I tried to make that a thematic
00:06:13.156 --> 00:06:14.718
for one of the books.
00:06:14.738 --> 00:06:17.100
So it's part apologetics and part
00:06:17.461 --> 00:06:19.603
testimony and my journey.
00:06:20.904 --> 00:06:23.766
I've had a lot of experience in life
00:06:24.226 --> 00:06:25.007
not believing.
00:06:25.646 --> 00:06:26.908
I wasn't an atheist.
00:06:27.148 --> 00:06:28.428
I wasn't a Christian.
00:06:28.449 --> 00:06:34.071
I had a very traditional upbringing and in
00:06:34.091 --> 00:06:35.072
a very good home.
00:06:36.252 --> 00:06:40.954
And my main issues with religious faith at
00:06:40.973 --> 00:06:42.675
the time was that I...
00:06:44.826 --> 00:06:47.327
I thought that they were probably all
00:06:47.728 --> 00:06:49.569
man-made constructs.
00:06:49.930 --> 00:06:51.771
I was pretty sure that most of them
00:06:51.790 --> 00:06:52.610
were.
00:06:54.172 --> 00:06:55.031
But for me,
00:06:56.392 --> 00:06:57.692
it was clear that it was going to
00:06:57.733 --> 00:06:59.875
be unbelief, as in there isn't a God,
00:07:00.154 --> 00:07:02.295
or if any religion claimed to have the
00:07:02.336 --> 00:07:05.237
best case for an argument for being the
00:07:05.276 --> 00:07:06.077
truthful religion,
00:07:06.117 --> 00:07:07.478
it seemed to me to be Christianity.
00:07:09.867 --> 00:07:11.127
I had a very real fork in the
00:07:11.168 --> 00:07:13.168
road moment in nineteen ninety nine where
00:07:14.129 --> 00:07:16.850
I joined a local authority and that's
00:07:16.971 --> 00:07:20.254
where I met a friend who indirectly ended
00:07:20.314 --> 00:07:23.956
up inviting me to church and there I
00:07:23.975 --> 00:07:25.737
met some Christians and then the journey
00:07:25.776 --> 00:07:28.418
really did take on a different dimensions
00:07:28.499 --> 00:07:31.480
and then I became a Christian about two
00:07:31.521 --> 00:07:32.620
years after that.
00:07:32.761 --> 00:07:33.742
So yeah, it's been a really
00:07:34.471 --> 00:07:35.672
really exhilarating journey.
00:07:35.692 --> 00:07:36.992
I was very interested in philosophy and
00:07:37.033 --> 00:07:39.115
science and, as you mentioned, economics,
00:07:39.235 --> 00:07:41.956
which I studied formally before,
00:07:42.497 --> 00:07:43.098
and psychology.
00:07:43.117 --> 00:07:44.720
I was very interested and I'm interested
00:07:44.740 --> 00:07:46.901
in people and how they work,
00:07:47.221 --> 00:07:49.444
how the world works.
00:07:49.463 --> 00:07:50.264
So I had all of the
00:07:51.279 --> 00:07:55.845
all of the keen interest and just didn't
00:07:55.865 --> 00:07:59.369
have any encounter with God up until the
00:07:59.389 --> 00:08:03.093
point that I finally got to know who
00:08:03.132 --> 00:08:03.593
Jesus is.
00:08:03.673 --> 00:08:07.036
So yeah, half in each camp.
00:08:07.057 --> 00:08:09.800
So it's been an interesting journey and
00:08:10.040 --> 00:08:11.762
where I find myself now is on the
00:08:11.781 --> 00:08:13.043
cusp of that fifty years.
00:08:17.014 --> 00:08:18.716
So I've got good news and bad news.
00:08:18.815 --> 00:08:20.398
I just turned fifty this year.
00:08:20.978 --> 00:08:23.540
And so it's great.
00:08:23.600 --> 00:08:25.583
Like I didn't notice any major differences
00:08:25.642 --> 00:08:27.425
between forty nine and fifty other than
00:08:27.564 --> 00:08:31.610
ice packs and braces and different things
00:08:31.649 --> 00:08:31.949
like that.
00:08:32.009 --> 00:08:34.653
So just talk up on those things and
00:08:34.993 --> 00:08:35.453
you'll be fine.
00:08:36.726 --> 00:08:37.748
Yeah, I, uh,
00:08:37.788 --> 00:08:39.431
I could play soccer with my,
00:08:39.510 --> 00:08:40.072
the next gen,
00:08:40.111 --> 00:08:42.495
the previous or the younger generation up
00:08:42.554 --> 00:08:44.898
until about fifty, fifty, one, fifty two.
00:08:45.558 --> 00:08:48.602
And then, uh, then as Sheldon said,
00:08:48.643 --> 00:08:50.686
the ice packs and stiffness started to set
00:08:50.765 --> 00:08:50.846
in.
00:08:51.746 --> 00:08:55.129
now i think um what what we'd like
00:08:55.149 --> 00:08:56.769
to maybe dive into a little bit here
00:08:56.909 --> 00:09:00.772
is your five stages uh but before we'll
00:09:00.851 --> 00:09:02.572
probably look at them one at a time
00:09:02.592 --> 00:09:03.972
but why don't you just give us a
00:09:04.052 --> 00:09:07.315
just a few sentence summary of a preview
00:09:07.375 --> 00:09:09.235
of what these five stages are before we
00:09:09.275 --> 00:09:10.716
look at each one individually
00:09:11.519 --> 00:09:11.979
And, of course,
00:09:12.019 --> 00:09:15.201
I'll warn the audience that we may get
00:09:15.302 --> 00:09:17.764
off on another track from time to time,
00:09:17.783 --> 00:09:18.485
and that's fine.
00:09:18.544 --> 00:09:20.886
But why don't you give us just a
00:09:21.126 --> 00:09:23.067
brief preview of what these five stages
00:09:23.128 --> 00:09:23.227
are,
00:09:23.249 --> 00:09:26.291
and then we can dive into them deeper.
00:09:26.510 --> 00:09:27.351
Yeah, sure, I will do.
00:09:27.711 --> 00:09:29.734
So this is quite hot off the press,
00:09:29.754 --> 00:09:30.033
really, I think,
00:09:30.053 --> 00:09:33.716
because it's fairly fresh to me that I
00:09:33.756 --> 00:09:35.638
had this idea of these five stages.
00:09:36.158 --> 00:09:36.919
I feel like it was...
00:09:38.370 --> 00:09:39.831
one of the things where it just,
00:09:40.032 --> 00:09:42.613
it seems to come to one in a
00:09:42.673 --> 00:09:44.494
sense that it almost feels providential
00:09:44.533 --> 00:09:46.453
and I obviously think we should test these
00:09:46.494 --> 00:09:46.874
things.
00:09:47.815 --> 00:09:51.216
I just had this sense of spiritual stages
00:09:51.235 --> 00:09:52.417
and I started to tap into it a
00:09:52.437 --> 00:09:53.937
bit and I ended up with five and
00:09:53.956 --> 00:09:57.318
I wanted something that could capture
00:09:57.339 --> 00:09:58.239
where everybody,
00:09:58.499 --> 00:09:59.860
every individual might be
00:10:01.558 --> 00:10:03.039
somewhere on one of those stages.
00:10:03.059 --> 00:10:04.360
I thought that was quite interesting
00:10:04.380 --> 00:10:06.581
because I thought it would be compelling
00:10:06.601 --> 00:10:10.965
for people to think of themselves as being
00:10:11.065 --> 00:10:14.206
on one of those five stages.
00:10:14.226 --> 00:10:15.567
I thought about how many it might be.
00:10:15.628 --> 00:10:20.691
So the stage one I've called devoid,
00:10:20.730 --> 00:10:22.893
so that's spiritually unaware.
00:10:23.985 --> 00:10:26.485
uh it's a kind of spiritual dormancy where
00:10:26.525 --> 00:10:28.947
people you know people people can be
00:10:29.386 --> 00:10:31.067
intelligent successful they can be kind
00:10:31.086 --> 00:10:33.067
they can be all different things in this
00:10:33.148 --> 00:10:36.729
stage but their their lives are filtered
00:10:37.009 --> 00:10:40.230
entirely through material ego-based
00:10:40.289 --> 00:10:43.530
frameworks you know um and where there's
00:10:43.671 --> 00:10:45.951
no real engagement with spiritual reality
00:10:46.192 --> 00:10:47.513
i doubt there are many people that haven't
00:10:47.552 --> 00:10:47.893
heard of
00:10:48.969 --> 00:10:52.431
the spiritual realities that people can
00:10:52.510 --> 00:10:53.171
explore.
00:10:53.191 --> 00:10:56.152
But their lives are basically devoid of
00:10:56.211 --> 00:10:58.952
anything actively spiritual or anything
00:10:59.033 --> 00:11:01.594
that really matters to them in a spiritual
00:11:01.634 --> 00:11:01.933
sense.
00:11:01.974 --> 00:11:03.835
And one thing about these stages,
00:11:03.855 --> 00:11:05.375
they're going to comprise a broad
00:11:05.895 --> 00:11:08.976
range of people in them and we're going
00:11:08.996 --> 00:11:11.716
to have to consider i think that at
00:11:11.797 --> 00:11:13.738
each stage there are lots of different
00:11:14.817 --> 00:11:16.778
elements to that stage you know say for
00:11:16.798 --> 00:11:18.538
example if you're in stage one and you're
00:11:18.599 --> 00:11:20.239
getting towards stage two you're going to
00:11:20.259 --> 00:11:22.599
be in a different place from someone at
00:11:22.639 --> 00:11:24.519
the beginning of stage one or the lower
00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:26.740
end of stage one so that's something we
00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:30.181
can we can talk about too um
00:11:31.321 --> 00:11:33.702
And then stage two I've called nascent,
00:11:33.743 --> 00:11:37.225
which is spiritually awakened.
00:11:37.284 --> 00:11:40.086
So this is what marks the beginning of
00:11:40.145 --> 00:11:41.486
spiritual curiosity.
00:11:44.229 --> 00:11:45.288
It could come after a crisis,
00:11:45.349 --> 00:11:48.191
it could come with a brush of beauty
00:11:48.291 --> 00:11:50.451
or some kind of unexpected sense that
00:11:50.993 --> 00:11:52.494
there must be more to life than this.
00:11:52.514 --> 00:11:55.775
There are a wide range of ways in
00:11:55.816 --> 00:11:57.677
which people can become spiritually
00:11:57.716 --> 00:11:59.557
awakened and spiritually aware.
00:12:02.004 --> 00:12:04.144
And it could be that they read scripture
00:12:04.164 --> 00:12:04.765
for the first time.
00:12:04.826 --> 00:12:06.167
It could be that they explore another
00:12:06.187 --> 00:12:06.528
religion.
00:12:06.548 --> 00:12:07.769
It could be something new agey.
00:12:08.048 --> 00:12:08.629
There are many,
00:12:08.749 --> 00:12:15.195
many ways to be in stage two.
00:12:15.274 --> 00:12:18.798
Stage three is what I've called validated.
00:12:18.857 --> 00:12:20.840
It's spiritually anchored in Christ.
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:23.081
So stage three is the point at which
00:12:24.102 --> 00:12:25.724
one becomes a Christian.
00:12:26.644 --> 00:12:28.184
So it's important, I think,
00:12:28.325 --> 00:12:31.126
that we do have that demarcation line
00:12:31.147 --> 00:12:33.208
where people are either, you know,
00:12:33.249 --> 00:12:35.571
recognize Jesus as Lord or not.
00:12:37.652 --> 00:12:37.932
So...
00:12:39.190 --> 00:12:41.610
it's where revelation leads to
00:12:41.650 --> 00:12:44.113
relationship and that can as you can
00:12:44.153 --> 00:12:45.972
imagine that can come in so many different
00:12:45.993 --> 00:12:48.595
ways and for so many different types of
00:12:48.654 --> 00:12:52.836
people um and within stage three there's a
00:12:52.856 --> 00:12:55.697
there's this newfound clarity of the
00:12:55.738 --> 00:12:59.019
transformative clarity of who of who jesus
00:12:59.419 --> 00:13:01.400
is and and that the christian faith is
00:13:01.480 --> 00:13:05.442
the is the true christian faith and i
00:13:05.482 --> 00:13:08.065
think again it's going to comprise an
00:13:08.264 --> 00:13:08.625
awful
00:13:10.190 --> 00:13:12.871
an awfully high number of people at all
00:13:12.912 --> 00:13:16.153
sorts of stages within that stage three.
00:13:17.554 --> 00:13:18.816
So then we get a bit bolder and
00:13:18.836 --> 00:13:20.756
we talk about stage four,
00:13:20.817 --> 00:13:23.339
which has two categories.
00:13:23.578 --> 00:13:25.159
And I've started to discern this from
00:13:25.240 --> 00:13:27.081
experience of Christians over the last
00:13:27.121 --> 00:13:28.022
twenty-five years.
00:13:29.062 --> 00:13:32.966
And so I've used the scientific caricature
00:13:33.046 --> 00:13:35.927
of right and left-brained here.
00:13:37.051 --> 00:13:38.692
As long as we accept that it is
00:13:39.673 --> 00:13:42.554
a caricature and it's got a lot of
00:13:42.595 --> 00:13:43.235
truth to it,
00:13:43.255 --> 00:13:45.437
but we don't want to have such a
00:13:45.758 --> 00:13:49.780
high resolution attachment to it that it
00:13:50.201 --> 00:13:53.724
loses its abstraction.
00:13:53.764 --> 00:13:57.385
So the right stage of stage four,
00:13:57.446 --> 00:13:58.027
this is where
00:13:59.576 --> 00:14:02.480
faith moves into a deep a sort of
00:14:02.539 --> 00:14:04.562
heart stage you know from from knowing god
00:14:04.601 --> 00:14:07.845
to truly encountering him in a in a
00:14:07.884 --> 00:14:10.767
more a deeper and intimate way more about
00:14:10.908 --> 00:14:13.929
holy spirit led deeper prayer deeper
00:14:13.970 --> 00:14:16.572
worship and then just really tapping into
00:14:16.592 --> 00:14:19.936
the to the deeper mysteries of divine
00:14:20.336 --> 00:14:21.857
presence i suppose you could say you know
00:14:21.878 --> 00:14:22.758
that it's
00:14:23.725 --> 00:14:25.107
It's deeply relational.
00:14:25.148 --> 00:14:27.269
It's often expressed through deep
00:14:27.289 --> 00:14:29.272
sensitivity, creativity.
00:14:29.852 --> 00:14:31.695
Words like the prophetic will often be
00:14:31.934 --> 00:14:39.964
used, the contemplative experience.
00:14:40.705 --> 00:14:41.546
Many may, in fact,
00:14:41.586 --> 00:14:42.506
will find this interesting.
00:14:43.996 --> 00:14:45.958
They find the traditional structured
00:14:45.999 --> 00:14:47.919
church life a bit too limiting because
00:14:47.980 --> 00:14:52.423
it's less about encounter and more about a
00:14:52.443 --> 00:14:53.884
routine and doctrine and stuff.
00:14:56.767 --> 00:15:00.769
But there are downsides to that too,
00:15:01.129 --> 00:15:04.691
this sort of hyper-spiritual way of being,
00:15:04.951 --> 00:15:06.130
I think, in stage four.
00:15:11.053 --> 00:15:12.974
It may be slightly less, and often is,
00:15:13.033 --> 00:15:14.254
less spiritually reasoned.
00:15:14.315 --> 00:15:16.716
So the stage four left, the other extreme,
00:15:17.777 --> 00:15:18.076
is...
00:15:19.303 --> 00:15:21.145
left brain being the more analytical you
00:15:21.166 --> 00:15:24.068
know represents faith in thinking more
00:15:24.109 --> 00:15:26.530
deeply the believer builds on their
00:15:26.591 --> 00:15:28.953
revelation with from stage three with with
00:15:29.173 --> 00:15:31.576
deeper reason with you know deeper
00:15:32.537 --> 00:15:34.779
pursuance of theological clarity and
00:15:34.820 --> 00:15:36.721
intellectual depth you know i'm sure we
00:15:36.782 --> 00:15:37.302
all know
00:15:38.283 --> 00:15:40.203
the types of people we're talking about in
00:15:40.244 --> 00:15:41.625
both sides of stage four.
00:15:41.684 --> 00:15:43.085
I'm sure we all know lots of people
00:15:43.105 --> 00:15:45.765
who we might think of in stage three.
00:15:46.307 --> 00:15:47.047
You know,
00:15:47.067 --> 00:15:49.727
this stage four left brain will be deep
00:15:51.568 --> 00:15:52.749
apologetics,
00:15:53.009 --> 00:15:57.692
maybe deeper exploration of church
00:15:57.731 --> 00:15:59.392
history, the overly cerebral,
00:15:59.412 --> 00:16:01.332
all of the kind of things that we
00:16:01.373 --> 00:16:04.394
know make up that kind of stage four.
00:16:04.414 --> 00:16:06.274
Now, I didn't say at the start,
00:16:06.315 --> 00:16:07.155
but one of the
00:16:08.399 --> 00:16:09.619
of the things that i did say in
00:16:09.639 --> 00:16:11.539
the in the original video which i think
00:16:11.559 --> 00:16:15.080
was important was that it's certainly
00:16:15.399 --> 00:16:17.760
never our place to try to judge where
00:16:17.821 --> 00:16:19.520
any individual is this is this is
00:16:19.640 --> 00:16:21.942
something that is an interesting exercise
00:16:22.001 --> 00:16:24.841
and uh it's it's good to contemplate it's
00:16:24.861 --> 00:16:27.182
good to have something to to drive towards
00:16:27.222 --> 00:16:29.102
and pursue i think to realize that it's
00:16:29.123 --> 00:16:31.303
a journey of of constant growth and
00:16:31.323 --> 00:16:31.844
development
00:16:32.364 --> 00:16:35.327
But I'm never making any comment on any
00:16:35.609 --> 00:16:37.892
individual's personal stage.
00:16:37.912 --> 00:16:39.754
That's not what I'm ever trying to do.
00:16:39.813 --> 00:16:42.298
And I couldn't possibly hope to know.
00:16:42.337 --> 00:16:43.840
I think only God knows this.
00:16:43.860 --> 00:16:46.043
So we've been through the stages up to
00:16:46.062 --> 00:16:47.183
three where people are...
00:16:48.166 --> 00:16:49.606
encountering Jesus and knowing that He's
00:16:49.667 --> 00:16:49.986
Lord.
00:16:50.346 --> 00:16:53.548
We've got stages for left brain and right
00:16:53.567 --> 00:16:55.788
brain, you know, the deeply emotional,
00:16:55.808 --> 00:17:00.171
the deeply intuitive and also the deeply
00:17:00.211 --> 00:17:02.071
profound and analytical on the other side.
00:17:02.530 --> 00:17:06.073
And stage five is what I've called
00:17:06.532 --> 00:17:07.173
integrated.
00:17:07.232 --> 00:17:09.213
It's what you might call spiritually
00:17:09.233 --> 00:17:09.513
whole,
00:17:09.534 --> 00:17:11.295
which I'm sure itself would be a whole
00:17:12.055 --> 00:17:13.695
journey of a lifetime too.
00:17:15.510 --> 00:17:17.513
once one might get to such a stage.
00:17:17.554 --> 00:17:20.257
So this is the stage of spiritual
00:17:20.297 --> 00:17:21.157
wholeness, if you like.
00:17:21.198 --> 00:17:25.223
It's where the heart of stage four right
00:17:25.304 --> 00:17:29.148
and the cognitive side of stage four left
00:17:30.202 --> 00:17:32.685
meet in a kind of embrace, an integration.
00:17:32.965 --> 00:17:33.547
Believers,
00:17:34.207 --> 00:17:38.050
they are likely to embody both sides of
00:17:38.191 --> 00:17:39.251
that theology.
00:17:40.192 --> 00:17:42.315
And it's a more mature,
00:17:42.435 --> 00:17:44.718
integrated faith that reflects the
00:17:44.738 --> 00:17:46.259
fullness of Christ in a way that
00:17:46.880 --> 00:17:49.020
But I think if anyone ever did get
00:17:49.060 --> 00:17:49.681
to stage five,
00:17:49.701 --> 00:17:51.361
they would be able to look back or
00:17:51.821 --> 00:17:53.422
they would be able to look behind at
00:17:53.461 --> 00:17:55.542
stage four, either side,
00:17:56.042 --> 00:17:59.703
and realize that it was a stage that
00:17:59.723 --> 00:18:02.305
they could progress beyond.
00:18:02.325 --> 00:18:06.286
So, yeah, you can expect that if you...
00:18:08.242 --> 00:18:10.164
If you met somebody in stage five,
00:18:10.204 --> 00:18:13.448
it would probably be someone who closely
00:18:13.528 --> 00:18:16.592
mirrors the character and the mind of
00:18:16.932 --> 00:18:20.536
Christ in a profoundly human and divine
00:18:20.556 --> 00:18:23.638
reflection, I think, of who he is.
00:18:24.400 --> 00:18:28.063
So that's a brief digest, really,
00:18:28.364 --> 00:18:31.326
of the five that I've put together.
00:18:32.082 --> 00:18:33.784
Yeah, well, thank you, James.
00:18:33.824 --> 00:18:37.189
There's probably different ways to
00:18:37.269 --> 00:18:40.051
classify the stages of spiritual growth
00:18:40.092 --> 00:18:41.974
within the scope of Christianity,
00:18:42.015 --> 00:18:42.154
but
00:18:42.790 --> 00:18:44.652
I think you provided one
00:18:45.311 --> 00:18:47.292
well-thought-through way of doing that.
00:18:48.093 --> 00:18:51.733
I find it interesting that you spoke about
00:18:51.794 --> 00:18:55.836
stage five as if possibly you've not yet
00:18:56.316 --> 00:18:57.556
arrived to stage five.
00:18:57.895 --> 00:18:59.076
Nevertheless,
00:19:00.777 --> 00:19:03.178
I think you still understand stage five.
00:19:03.198 --> 00:19:04.519
You still foresee that.
00:19:05.318 --> 00:19:07.599
Could it be that are you...
00:19:09.983 --> 00:19:12.806
there's probably maybe a no hard boundary
00:19:12.846 --> 00:19:14.767
between stage four and stage five,
00:19:15.307 --> 00:19:17.989
but one finds oneself at the edge of
00:19:18.128 --> 00:19:19.890
the boundary of between four and five and
00:19:19.911 --> 00:19:20.750
moving into five.
00:19:21.111 --> 00:19:25.034
Would you say you're experiencing maybe
00:19:25.854 --> 00:19:28.175
the shadow lands between four and five at
00:19:28.195 --> 00:19:33.378
this stage in life?
00:19:33.499 --> 00:19:34.279
I don't know,
00:19:34.579 --> 00:19:37.301
because I find it hard to comment on
00:19:37.342 --> 00:19:37.842
myself.
00:19:41.604 --> 00:19:41.784
I mean,
00:19:41.824 --> 00:19:42.684
you wouldn't want to be the sort of
00:19:42.724 --> 00:19:44.027
person that said, hey,
00:19:44.146 --> 00:19:47.090
I'm at stage five and I can see
00:19:47.111 --> 00:19:48.153
that people need to catch up.
00:19:48.173 --> 00:19:49.775
No one would want to do that.
00:19:49.855 --> 00:19:51.116
I certainly wouldn't do that for myself.
00:19:51.176 --> 00:19:54.701
I think I'm always mindful of St.
00:19:54.862 --> 00:19:56.344
Paul's journey as he
00:19:58.415 --> 00:20:01.457
as he became wiser and wiser and more
00:20:01.517 --> 00:20:03.077
experienced and mature in Christ.
00:20:03.678 --> 00:20:06.079
You'll notice that his humility increased.
00:20:06.980 --> 00:20:07.859
He starts by saying,
00:20:08.019 --> 00:20:09.601
I'm one of the worst of all sinners.
00:20:09.921 --> 00:20:11.321
And by the end of his life,
00:20:12.122 --> 00:20:14.123
when he's at his most mature and
00:20:14.182 --> 00:20:16.344
experienced and been through all that
00:20:16.364 --> 00:20:17.704
growth, he says,
00:20:17.785 --> 00:20:19.144
I'm the very worst of all sinners.
00:20:19.164 --> 00:20:20.405
So I think there's something in that,
00:20:20.486 --> 00:20:25.107
that perhaps one might sense that if one
00:20:25.147 --> 00:20:26.608
did get closer to five years,
00:20:27.184 --> 00:20:29.967
then one might become a much more humble
00:20:29.987 --> 00:20:30.227
person.
00:20:30.247 --> 00:20:32.327
Maybe even a self-referential problem that
00:20:32.428 --> 00:20:34.709
one wouldn't like to proclaim oneself in
00:20:34.729 --> 00:20:36.589
stage five if one ever got close to
00:20:36.651 --> 00:20:36.730
it.
00:20:36.770 --> 00:20:38.511
That might be something that's true.
00:20:38.791 --> 00:20:39.632
I don't know.
00:20:39.731 --> 00:20:43.273
I suppose I recognise myself certainly as
00:20:44.315 --> 00:20:46.855
a more cerebral person in the stage four
00:20:46.895 --> 00:20:47.257
category.
00:20:47.277 --> 00:20:50.719
And I think having married my wife,
00:20:50.759 --> 00:20:53.961
whose family are much more...
00:20:54.901 --> 00:20:57.241
intuitively hyper-spiritual,
00:20:57.922 --> 00:21:00.862
I was brought up in an Anglican
00:21:00.922 --> 00:21:01.521
environment.
00:21:03.442 --> 00:21:06.682
I think meeting a lot more people like
00:21:06.722 --> 00:21:08.564
that has been really useful to me to
00:21:08.584 --> 00:21:11.183
help me to formulate what might be the
00:21:11.203 --> 00:21:15.984
different stages and also to see how that
00:21:16.045 --> 00:21:17.846
plays out in people's lives.
00:21:17.885 --> 00:21:20.546
So I don't know.
00:21:20.726 --> 00:21:22.106
I would like to say that it's something
00:21:22.146 --> 00:21:23.807
we should all aspire to try to
00:21:25.259 --> 00:21:25.819
achieve.
00:21:26.121 --> 00:21:28.505
And achieve is even a loaded term,
00:21:28.525 --> 00:21:28.726
isn't it?
00:21:28.746 --> 00:21:32.512
Because it's all grace and favour from the
00:21:32.553 --> 00:21:33.756
Lord and revelation.
00:21:33.836 --> 00:21:34.257
But I think
00:21:35.805 --> 00:21:39.769
There's a sense in which to know a
00:21:39.828 --> 00:21:42.810
limit is to be aware that one can
00:21:42.851 --> 00:21:43.471
be beyond.
00:21:43.491 --> 00:21:45.594
I think that was what Habermas said,
00:21:45.634 --> 00:21:46.034
wasn't it?
00:21:46.074 --> 00:21:48.435
So, yeah,
00:21:48.836 --> 00:21:51.459
it's good to be aware that it may
00:21:51.858 --> 00:21:53.580
be something that we could grasp,
00:21:54.221 --> 00:21:56.123
but I would be reluctant to put myself
00:21:57.236 --> 00:21:58.616
How do you look to the arbitration of
00:21:58.656 --> 00:21:59.436
others perhaps?
00:21:59.836 --> 00:22:01.077
I think we have a preview.
00:22:01.218 --> 00:22:01.397
I mean,
00:22:01.438 --> 00:22:02.938
I think we see that in the New
00:22:02.978 --> 00:22:03.459
Testament.
00:22:03.499 --> 00:22:03.898
We do.
00:22:04.318 --> 00:22:06.500
It's not as if we're just starting with
00:22:06.519 --> 00:22:08.560
a complete ignorance of different stages
00:22:08.580 --> 00:22:09.441
of spiritual growth.
00:22:09.961 --> 00:22:11.842
But as we study the scriptures, we'll see,
00:22:12.041 --> 00:22:13.682
oh, yeah, there does seem to be,
00:22:14.123 --> 00:22:15.823
it seems to, in the words of C.S.
00:22:15.883 --> 00:22:16.263
Lewis,
00:22:16.344 --> 00:22:17.624
there are relationships that goes ever
00:22:17.663 --> 00:22:19.005
higher up and further in.
00:22:19.724 --> 00:22:21.145
And even if we're not there yet,
00:22:21.185 --> 00:22:23.145
we still know that there is a higher
00:22:23.205 --> 00:22:24.707
up and there still is a further in.
00:22:25.406 --> 00:22:26.847
that we can, um,
00:22:26.867 --> 00:22:28.107
that we're moving towards.
00:22:28.327 --> 00:22:30.388
And yet at the same time,
00:22:30.449 --> 00:22:31.368
we're aware we're not,
00:22:31.849 --> 00:22:32.829
we're not there yet.
00:22:32.869 --> 00:22:36.751
Or even there is a bit of a
00:22:36.811 --> 00:22:38.412
loaded term because it implies there's a
00:22:38.451 --> 00:22:40.472
point somewhere up ahead that you reach,
00:22:40.492 --> 00:22:42.453
but I don't see it as a point.
00:22:42.534 --> 00:22:43.993
I see it as a road that ever
00:22:44.095 --> 00:22:46.536
keeps going further and closer into God.
00:22:46.556 --> 00:22:49.116
Uh, let's go back to, uh,
00:22:49.136 --> 00:22:50.916
now let's go back and dive in to
00:22:51.376 --> 00:22:54.078
maybe a little more, um, in detail,
00:22:54.098 --> 00:22:54.939
slightly more detail.
00:22:55.900 --> 00:22:56.759
in the five stages.
00:22:56.839 --> 00:22:56.980
Now,
00:22:57.099 --> 00:22:59.320
I really like your description or your
00:22:59.381 --> 00:23:01.800
word or your name as devoid for the
00:23:01.820 --> 00:23:02.582
first stage.
00:23:03.721 --> 00:23:05.721
The reason I like that is that I
00:23:05.761 --> 00:23:08.522
think it actually describes a person's
00:23:08.583 --> 00:23:09.083
state.
00:23:10.483 --> 00:23:12.364
There's a lot that's missing there.
00:23:12.384 --> 00:23:15.505
It's not just devoid in their first pass,
00:23:15.525 --> 00:23:16.825
they might think devoid of what.
00:23:17.724 --> 00:23:19.546
But once you've crossed into the next
00:23:19.566 --> 00:23:21.125
stages, you realize, wow,
00:23:21.165 --> 00:23:24.186
there was a lot not there in the
00:23:24.207 --> 00:23:24.967
devoid stage.
00:23:25.776 --> 00:23:27.958
uh and i think that's probably the stage
00:23:28.077 --> 00:23:30.420
a lot of the average people could identify
00:23:30.440 --> 00:23:32.582
with because it's oh yeah for sure there's
00:23:32.642 --> 00:23:35.463
no real role for the spiritual life uh
00:23:35.743 --> 00:23:38.246
in spirituality i might not even believe
00:23:38.286 --> 00:23:40.887
in it um i question all that and
00:23:40.907 --> 00:23:43.069
they would identify more clearly with that
00:23:43.109 --> 00:23:46.512
but they might not realize the term devoid
00:23:47.133 --> 00:23:51.076
doesn't just mean um what i what this
00:23:51.115 --> 00:23:52.116
guy thinks i'm missing
00:23:53.077 --> 00:23:55.000
but it actually is a very real state
00:23:55.040 --> 00:23:57.483
devoid of real life.
00:23:58.384 --> 00:23:59.086
By real life,
00:23:59.145 --> 00:24:00.587
I'm talking about the life that Christ
00:24:00.729 --> 00:24:01.009
offered,
00:24:01.068 --> 00:24:03.732
not just the life that a fungus has
00:24:03.752 --> 00:24:04.913
as he sits on a log.
00:24:05.515 --> 00:24:06.375
Anybody can make it.
00:24:06.496 --> 00:24:08.138
Even a fungus can make it through life.
00:24:09.098 --> 00:24:11.220
but there's something a whole nother level
00:24:11.259 --> 00:24:13.080
so it's devoid of that it's devoid of
00:24:13.101 --> 00:24:15.481
the joy another whole level of
00:24:15.521 --> 00:24:18.663
appreciating beauty of nature um even
00:24:19.483 --> 00:24:21.345
music can speak to a person in a
00:24:21.664 --> 00:24:24.566
whole new way uh once they're no longer
00:24:24.586 --> 00:24:26.287
in that devoid stage is there anything
00:24:26.366 --> 00:24:28.528
else you'd like to say we probably don't
00:24:28.567 --> 00:24:30.249
need to spend a lot of time on
00:24:30.328 --> 00:24:31.148
a devoid stage
00:24:32.647 --> 00:24:34.368
before we move into the second stage.
00:24:34.989 --> 00:24:37.210
Can I also get a clarification?
00:24:38.029 --> 00:24:40.369
My understanding is that these stages are
00:24:41.490 --> 00:24:46.291
Christianity spiritual, not spiritual in,
00:24:47.352 --> 00:24:49.292
oh, I'm Buddhist, therefore I'm poor.
00:24:49.333 --> 00:24:51.653
Yeah, that's right, yeah.
00:24:53.826 --> 00:24:55.186
Yeah, so that's right.
00:24:55.906 --> 00:24:58.228
We are working under the proposition that
00:24:58.248 --> 00:24:59.548
Christianity is the truth,
00:24:59.669 --> 00:25:04.270
that Jesus is the true God through whom
00:25:04.290 --> 00:25:06.412
we can have a relationship with God,
00:25:06.892 --> 00:25:09.752
the Father and the Holy Spirit.
00:25:09.813 --> 00:25:10.894
So yeah,
00:25:11.054 --> 00:25:14.556
this is entirely laid out to say that
00:25:14.796 --> 00:25:18.596
everyone will be somewhere on that journey
00:25:19.178 --> 00:25:20.117
at one of those stages.
00:25:20.157 --> 00:25:21.179
Absolutely, yes, that's right.
00:25:24.107 --> 00:25:29.251
To say anything else about devoid, yeah,
00:25:29.352 --> 00:25:32.535
I suppose I would say that I was
00:25:33.915 --> 00:25:36.557
probably devoid myself when I grew up.
00:25:37.638 --> 00:25:43.123
I didn't have anything in my home or
00:25:43.143 --> 00:25:45.263
in my upbringing that was remotely
00:25:45.545 --> 00:25:48.027
interested in any kind of
00:25:49.530 --> 00:25:50.891
supernatural, spiritual,
00:25:50.911 --> 00:25:54.692
religious tenets or precepts at all.
00:25:54.711 --> 00:25:57.593
So I think for me,
00:25:58.932 --> 00:26:04.335
it was first learning that Jesus loves me.
00:26:04.615 --> 00:26:08.336
And I've said before in other videos that
00:26:08.836 --> 00:26:10.915
nobody actually told me just how loved I
00:26:10.935 --> 00:26:11.096
was.
00:26:11.115 --> 00:26:14.017
I remember sitting in the car with the
00:26:14.037 --> 00:26:15.897
friend I talked about earlier who
00:26:16.077 --> 00:26:17.198
introduced me to church.
00:26:18.178 --> 00:26:22.279
And the idea that God might exist has
00:26:22.380 --> 00:26:24.560
always been very attractive to me,
00:26:25.101 --> 00:26:27.682
but we just had this very honest
00:26:27.721 --> 00:26:31.084
conversation where he said that
00:26:32.309 --> 00:26:35.111
imagine a god that created the entire
00:26:35.211 --> 00:26:37.951
universe and then was willing to come down
00:26:38.271 --> 00:26:40.251
and live amongst us live as we live
00:26:41.051 --> 00:26:43.673
suffer the things that we suffer and
00:26:43.873 --> 00:26:46.574
reveal himself through that grace and
00:26:46.614 --> 00:26:48.374
humility and i and i remember just having
00:26:48.394 --> 00:26:51.835
this really eureka moment thinking wow
00:26:52.215 --> 00:26:54.836
yeah if there's a god that's that's i
00:26:54.855 --> 00:26:56.356
think that's the only god that i could
00:26:56.396 --> 00:26:56.856
possibly
00:26:57.890 --> 00:27:00.050
relate to a god that would do that
00:27:00.230 --> 00:27:03.230
it just it ticked the boxes and it
00:27:03.270 --> 00:27:05.551
made me realize that that's that's what we
00:27:05.592 --> 00:27:07.192
do have on often it still took some
00:27:07.231 --> 00:27:09.393
time to to give my life to him
00:27:09.413 --> 00:27:11.252
but yeah i would say i've been through
00:27:11.272 --> 00:27:13.594
the biblical stage and the getting to
00:27:13.614 --> 00:27:16.253
stage two was very exhilarating but yeah i
00:27:17.173 --> 00:27:19.154
it's as you say it's it's it's what
00:27:19.194 --> 00:27:21.355
you don't let in and what you don't
00:27:21.414 --> 00:27:23.455
consider and if you live your life
00:27:24.383 --> 00:27:27.665
without any spiritual awareness at all and
00:27:27.846 --> 00:27:29.146
not allowing anything in.
00:27:29.247 --> 00:27:36.973
That's what I'd say the void is, yeah.
00:27:36.993 --> 00:27:37.815
You're muted, Kirk.
00:27:40.182 --> 00:27:40.301
Yeah,
00:27:40.321 --> 00:27:41.363
it's pretty hard to know what you're
00:27:41.423 --> 00:27:43.805
missing if you've never experienced what
00:27:43.825 --> 00:27:44.486
you're missing.
00:27:46.708 --> 00:27:49.851
This next stage of awareness,
00:27:51.172 --> 00:27:53.233
it kind of relates to the topic of
00:27:53.273 --> 00:27:54.174
divine hiddenness.
00:27:54.194 --> 00:27:56.317
I was having a conversation with somebody
00:27:56.376 --> 00:27:56.817
yesterday
00:27:57.557 --> 00:27:59.179
And I argue that there,
00:27:59.679 --> 00:28:01.819
the call of God is actually out there
00:28:02.059 --> 00:28:04.422
that every person actually experiences the
00:28:04.461 --> 00:28:05.182
call of God,
00:28:05.622 --> 00:28:07.702
but may not be at first aware of
00:28:07.762 --> 00:28:07.863
it.
00:28:08.002 --> 00:28:09.844
Or there may be expecting the,
00:28:10.223 --> 00:28:11.105
if there is a God,
00:28:11.144 --> 00:28:13.046
this is how he would let us all
00:28:13.086 --> 00:28:13.246
know.
00:28:13.286 --> 00:28:14.886
He'd put a big sign on the moon
00:28:14.926 --> 00:28:17.428
or something, but, uh,
00:28:17.468 --> 00:28:19.328
because we look for the call of God
00:28:19.348 --> 00:28:20.289
in the wrong places,
00:28:20.349 --> 00:28:22.230
we may miss the real call of God,
00:28:22.990 --> 00:28:23.171
but.
00:28:23.760 --> 00:28:25.102
And by call of God, I mean,
00:28:25.481 --> 00:28:27.521
could God actually be interested in me?
00:28:27.721 --> 00:28:30.363
Is he actually maybe speaking to me or
00:28:30.423 --> 00:28:32.084
drawing me to himself?
00:28:32.124 --> 00:28:34.984
And how do I respond type of thing?
00:28:35.704 --> 00:28:41.646
But the awareness is when you begin to
00:28:41.767 --> 00:28:45.988
perceive maybe God is calling me.
00:28:46.028 --> 00:28:47.929
And I've experienced the call of God.
00:28:48.709 --> 00:28:50.650
i've spoken about in public places like
00:28:50.670 --> 00:28:52.451
for example nature like the invisible
00:28:52.550 --> 00:28:55.512
attributes eternal power and divine nature
00:28:55.553 --> 00:28:58.015
of god can be seen in what he
00:28:58.055 --> 00:29:01.616
has created in this in the material world
00:29:02.396 --> 00:29:04.818
there's something supernatural woven into
00:29:04.858 --> 00:29:06.240
it and have you ever felt a sense
00:29:06.279 --> 00:29:08.941
of awe or reverence and often they'll say
00:29:08.980 --> 00:29:09.961
well yeah i do but
00:29:10.782 --> 00:29:13.163
don't know exactly what that is what would
00:29:13.183 --> 00:29:16.846
you like to say uh james about the
00:29:17.066 --> 00:29:19.247
about the second stage yeah just to
00:29:19.267 --> 00:29:22.428
clarify that or highlight specific things
00:29:22.468 --> 00:29:26.089
about the second stage yeah well the
00:29:26.150 --> 00:29:29.290
second stage is going to have a a
00:29:29.391 --> 00:29:32.093
really diverse range of people in it as
00:29:32.113 --> 00:29:34.453
you can imagine um and i've i've been
00:29:34.493 --> 00:29:36.654
very involved in the discussions with
00:29:36.994 --> 00:29:39.415
people who uh are
00:29:40.455 --> 00:29:42.036
atheists attacking Christianity,
00:29:42.096 --> 00:29:43.737
people trying to explore the faith and
00:29:44.176 --> 00:29:45.436
genuinely, as you mentioned,
00:29:45.477 --> 00:29:46.317
divine hiddenness,
00:29:48.278 --> 00:29:52.019
can't understand why it isn't more obvious
00:29:52.058 --> 00:29:52.598
to them.
00:29:52.798 --> 00:29:57.059
And I think it's really interesting.
00:29:58.779 --> 00:30:00.019
What I learned, I think,
00:30:00.079 --> 00:30:01.921
from a lot of these discussions,
00:30:01.980 --> 00:30:03.260
I was very active on some of the
00:30:03.280 --> 00:30:05.280
Richard Dawkins forums and stuff in the
00:30:08.262 --> 00:30:10.003
I had a lot of conversations with
00:30:10.064 --> 00:30:14.367
unbelievers and what I suspect is going on
00:30:14.528 --> 00:30:17.470
if we had some kind of algorithmic to
00:30:17.509 --> 00:30:18.310
say, you know,
00:30:18.330 --> 00:30:20.031
when people say all these different kinds
00:30:20.071 --> 00:30:22.294
of reasons that they don't believe,
00:30:23.354 --> 00:30:25.976
and criticisms of the faith and sometimes
00:30:26.076 --> 00:30:27.176
other religions and all the different
00:30:27.196 --> 00:30:27.458
things,
00:30:29.098 --> 00:30:32.421
it's become quite apparent to me that by
00:30:32.461 --> 00:30:33.162
and large,
00:30:34.201 --> 00:30:37.604
people believe what they want to believe
00:30:38.325 --> 00:30:42.910
and there are many driving forces behind
00:30:42.970 --> 00:30:44.570
and this this is true in politics and
00:30:44.911 --> 00:30:47.574
in economics in in all sorts of tribal
00:30:47.733 --> 00:30:51.857
beliefs that people wed themselves to um
00:30:53.660 --> 00:30:55.301
that doesn't mean that
00:30:58.040 --> 00:30:58.442
Obviously,
00:30:58.481 --> 00:31:00.904
they can acquire new information and they
00:31:00.924 --> 00:31:02.787
can change what they want to believe,
00:31:03.087 --> 00:31:04.869
but there are an awful lot of things
00:31:04.890 --> 00:31:06.531
that are driving what they want to
00:31:06.571 --> 00:31:06.873
believe.
00:31:06.893 --> 00:31:08.575
And I think it's one of the most
00:31:08.654 --> 00:31:11.358
liberating things for anybody to discover
00:31:11.960 --> 00:31:12.220
that
00:31:13.060 --> 00:31:16.142
what they believe is being driven by what
00:31:16.162 --> 00:31:18.682
they want to believe and how that feeds
00:31:18.741 --> 00:31:19.521
into their...
00:31:19.782 --> 00:31:22.262
It could be anything from the social
00:31:22.303 --> 00:31:25.884
status they're trying to acquire to the
00:31:25.963 --> 00:31:26.864
in-group mentality,
00:31:27.003 --> 00:31:29.164
the sense of belonging they're looking
00:31:29.204 --> 00:31:29.565
for,
00:31:31.484 --> 00:31:33.205
how it's convenient for their lives in
00:31:34.185 --> 00:31:35.145
numerous ways.
00:31:35.185 --> 00:31:37.747
And I think I started to also observe
00:31:37.767 --> 00:31:39.126
that most of the...
00:31:40.847 --> 00:31:42.049
most of the prominent,
00:31:42.109 --> 00:31:43.592
what you might call new wave atheists,
00:31:43.613 --> 00:31:45.055
or the people who had the biggest beef
00:31:45.095 --> 00:31:49.121
with Christianity, almost always,
00:31:49.181 --> 00:31:50.403
in my experience,
00:31:50.903 --> 00:31:52.707
were brought up
00:31:54.008 --> 00:31:55.548
as either they would call themselves
00:31:55.568 --> 00:31:56.990
Christians or they were brought up in a
00:31:57.029 --> 00:31:58.471
church environment.
00:31:59.152 --> 00:32:02.953
It's that kind of what Jung called an
00:32:03.013 --> 00:32:05.896
antiodromia, the tension of opposites,
00:32:05.916 --> 00:32:06.196
you know,
00:32:06.217 --> 00:32:09.138
the people who are angriest with the
00:32:09.159 --> 00:32:10.839
Christian faith, the people who are on,
00:32:10.859 --> 00:32:12.060
you know, online,
00:32:13.208 --> 00:32:15.409
wanting to bash religion and say that
00:32:15.450 --> 00:32:17.530
anyone who believes is just stupid and
00:32:17.550 --> 00:32:18.050
foolish.
00:32:18.692 --> 00:32:19.251
You know,
00:32:19.811 --> 00:32:22.034
there's a real animus to what they're
00:32:22.054 --> 00:32:24.414
trying to reject, I think.
00:32:24.816 --> 00:32:28.357
So Stage Two comprises so many different
00:32:28.377 --> 00:32:29.179
types of people.
00:32:29.979 --> 00:32:34.362
It's a really intriguing stage to try to
00:32:34.382 --> 00:32:35.383
delve into, I think.
00:32:35.442 --> 00:32:36.123
And, yeah,
00:32:36.143 --> 00:32:38.144
there are probably as many different types
00:32:38.163 --> 00:32:40.205
of people in Stage Two as there are...
00:32:40.951 --> 00:32:42.732
people people in it really you know it's
00:32:42.893 --> 00:32:47.997
uh but it's yeah it's i i think
00:32:48.017 --> 00:32:49.939
the most fruitful conversations in stage
00:32:49.959 --> 00:32:51.559
two tends to tend to be the ones
00:32:51.599 --> 00:32:55.383
where people you know are giving giving
00:32:55.403 --> 00:32:58.306
christianity enough respect and i wrote
00:32:58.326 --> 00:33:00.106
this in one of my books that you
00:33:00.126 --> 00:33:03.190
know if you don't if you don't come
00:33:03.250 --> 00:33:04.912
into the subject of christianity
00:33:06.067 --> 00:33:11.307
with the utmost respect for the scriptures
00:33:11.327 --> 00:33:13.689
you're dealing with, the propositions,
00:33:14.308 --> 00:33:17.729
the level of theological discourse that's
00:33:17.749 --> 00:33:19.750
been offered by believing Christians.
00:33:21.210 --> 00:33:22.150
If you're not doing that,
00:33:22.210 --> 00:33:24.171
then you're holding something back,
00:33:24.211 --> 00:33:24.490
I think,
00:33:24.510 --> 00:33:27.290
because the subject itself is utterly
00:33:27.330 --> 00:33:27.990
enthralling.
00:33:28.090 --> 00:33:33.071
And for people who want to explore that,
00:33:34.173 --> 00:33:35.853
it's one heck of an adventure.
00:33:37.847 --> 00:33:38.928
Sorry, go ahead.
00:33:38.948 --> 00:33:40.009
Go ahead, Sean.
00:33:40.108 --> 00:33:42.289
I have two things.
00:33:43.330 --> 00:33:43.471
One,
00:33:44.832 --> 00:33:46.992
I'm in that space in my Bible in
00:33:47.012 --> 00:33:49.273
a year devotions where I've just gone
00:33:49.294 --> 00:33:50.974
through that journey with the disciples a
00:33:51.035 --> 00:33:51.654
little bit.
00:33:52.695 --> 00:33:54.176
Why do you speak in parables?
00:33:55.575 --> 00:34:00.140
And even in this second stage,
00:34:00.201 --> 00:34:02.103
I can sort of see the disciples sitting
00:34:02.143 --> 00:34:06.367
there, and they want to know,
00:34:06.867 --> 00:34:08.030
but they don't get it yet.
00:34:09.612 --> 00:34:11.655
And so there's a lot of that, like,
00:34:11.974 --> 00:34:14.657
okay, I know there's something more.
00:34:15.297 --> 00:34:17.518
All my preconceived, like,
00:34:17.739 --> 00:34:20.920
even in the midst of walking with Jesus,
00:34:21.081 --> 00:34:24.023
they're expecting Jesus to be doing
00:34:24.083 --> 00:34:25.583
something different than he's doing.
00:34:26.992 --> 00:34:28.693
And so there's a lot of that in
00:34:28.753 --> 00:34:29.494
stage two.
00:34:29.914 --> 00:34:30.255
Well,
00:34:30.735 --> 00:34:34.577
why are we struggling with suffering?
00:34:34.597 --> 00:34:35.938
Why do Christians still struggle with
00:34:35.998 --> 00:34:36.577
suffering?
00:34:36.657 --> 00:34:39.880
And why is this happening in the world?
00:34:39.920 --> 00:34:41.400
Okay,
00:34:41.420 --> 00:34:43.782
those kind of questions need answers.
00:34:44.382 --> 00:34:46.503
And then there's also those feelings like,
00:34:46.523 --> 00:34:49.465
well, I'm also struggling with this.
00:34:50.565 --> 00:34:52.648
So I can see there's a little of
00:34:52.668 --> 00:34:53.588
that in stage two.
00:34:53.628 --> 00:34:55.829
And then the other piece I can also
00:34:55.869 --> 00:34:56.530
see a lot of,
00:34:56.690 --> 00:34:59.612
and this is just years of ministry where
00:34:59.652 --> 00:35:02.215
we're working through things with people.
00:35:03.335 --> 00:35:05.257
I can see people going between one and
00:35:05.318 --> 00:35:05.657
two,
00:35:06.778 --> 00:35:09.141
even in the midst of like a single
00:35:09.181 --> 00:35:10.442
day where they're,
00:35:10.842 --> 00:35:12.784
they're go from one to two and then
00:35:12.824 --> 00:35:14.005
they don't get the right answer.
00:35:14.045 --> 00:35:14.666
And it's like, well,
00:35:16.664 --> 00:35:19.789
and they get hardened for a little while,
00:35:19.809 --> 00:35:21.331
and then they might go back to two.
00:35:21.413 --> 00:35:24.396
And I can see people jumping those stages
00:35:24.657 --> 00:35:27.260
quite often in those conversations that
00:35:27.300 --> 00:35:28.063
I've had with people.
00:35:29.385 --> 00:35:30.365
One thing you know is...
00:35:32.393 --> 00:35:33.114
James,
00:35:33.594 --> 00:35:36.835
I was really insightful is that people
00:35:36.876 --> 00:35:38.356
believe what they want to believe.
00:35:38.516 --> 00:35:40.838
And I have done a lot of formal
00:35:40.858 --> 00:35:42.599
debates on universities.
00:35:44.199 --> 00:35:44.880
And I would,
00:35:44.980 --> 00:35:46.740
I began to just simply in my opening
00:35:46.780 --> 00:35:49.081
remarks, just as I stood up there,
00:35:49.161 --> 00:35:51.483
I just informed them that I have learned
00:35:51.503 --> 00:35:53.184
that people believe what they want to
00:35:53.204 --> 00:35:53.623
believe.
00:35:53.744 --> 00:35:56.864
So just sit back, enjoy the conversation.
00:35:56.925 --> 00:35:58.045
And all I'm going to do is stir
00:35:58.065 --> 00:35:58.485
the pot.
00:35:59.487 --> 00:36:00.949
But in doing that,
00:36:01.028 --> 00:36:02.608
what happens is that people have a
00:36:02.668 --> 00:36:04.710
psychological resistance to being told
00:36:04.769 --> 00:36:06.329
what is true and what to believe.
00:36:07.951 --> 00:36:10.291
They come to a debate saying, okay,
00:36:11.952 --> 00:36:14.472
this guy's gonna say some stuff and I'm
00:36:14.552 --> 00:36:16.793
committed to not believing it, almost,
00:36:16.833 --> 00:36:18.094
though maybe not consciously.
00:36:18.134 --> 00:36:21.295
But when you put it on the table
00:36:21.476 --> 00:36:22.815
that people believe what you wanna
00:36:22.835 --> 00:36:25.436
believe, and I'm here to stir the pot,
00:36:26.367 --> 00:36:28.831
then the i i find they're a lot
00:36:28.871 --> 00:36:30.994
more open okay well i'm just going to
00:36:31.014 --> 00:36:33.219
enjoy it but in enjoying what they hear
00:36:33.739 --> 00:36:36.342
they actually become enter a state where
00:36:36.362 --> 00:36:37.806
they can digest what you're saying
00:36:38.628 --> 00:36:40.409
But another important thing I think in the
00:36:40.429 --> 00:36:43.132
awareness stage is dealing with the
00:36:43.273 --> 00:36:45.173
reasons why they're believing what they
00:36:45.213 --> 00:36:45.733
believe.
00:36:46.474 --> 00:36:49.818
And sometimes the way to deal with that
00:36:49.838 --> 00:36:52.179
seems to be asking the right questions,
00:36:52.599 --> 00:36:54.001
asking them how,
00:36:54.601 --> 00:36:57.322
why do you find yourself resistant to this
00:36:57.422 --> 00:36:59.445
or what, what is, and,
00:36:59.664 --> 00:37:01.266
and that will vary from person to person,
00:37:01.286 --> 00:37:03.588
but Socrates is, um, in Plato,
00:37:03.688 --> 00:37:05.528
Socrates is dialogue with some of the
00:37:05.548 --> 00:37:06.769
other people like youth of pro,
00:37:06.789 --> 00:37:07.391
for example.
00:37:08.054 --> 00:37:10.396
he developed the art of asking the right
00:37:10.476 --> 00:37:11.257
questions.
00:37:11.498 --> 00:37:13.318
And so from a Christian perspective,
00:37:13.338 --> 00:37:15.501
let's say we're in stage three or four
00:37:15.561 --> 00:37:17.663
or five that we wanna reach out to
00:37:17.682 --> 00:37:19.003
the people in the awareness stage,
00:37:19.043 --> 00:37:20.184
or even in the unaware.
00:37:20.545 --> 00:37:22.706
The unaware stage can be awakened by
00:37:22.827 --> 00:37:24.427
asking the right questions as well.
00:37:25.309 --> 00:37:26.429
So I like this,
00:37:26.590 --> 00:37:28.751
and I like this idea that you're
00:37:28.931 --> 00:37:33.235
presenting that there's an aware stage and
00:37:33.335 --> 00:37:33.755
we can't,
00:37:35.068 --> 00:37:37.992
We can't necessarily make a person move
00:37:38.032 --> 00:37:38.692
ahead in that.
00:37:38.751 --> 00:37:40.693
It's gotta be, I think,
00:37:40.974 --> 00:37:43.576
the Holy Spirit or God working within that
00:37:43.615 --> 00:37:44.297
person's heart.
00:37:45.184 --> 00:37:45.625
Definitely.
00:37:45.885 --> 00:37:46.766
Yeah, that's right.
00:37:47.025 --> 00:37:47.445
Definitely.
00:37:48.286 --> 00:37:49.588
That's one of the things that a lot
00:37:49.628 --> 00:37:51.188
of people who are exploring,
00:37:51.768 --> 00:37:53.030
they do get a bit frustrated with it,
00:37:53.050 --> 00:37:54.871
but it's also, I think,
00:37:55.530 --> 00:37:58.052
something that's necessary to keep telling
00:37:58.072 --> 00:38:00.173
them is that, you know, Paul says,
00:38:00.233 --> 00:38:01.574
only those who have the Spirit can see
00:38:01.614 --> 00:38:02.195
Jesus as Lord.
00:38:02.215 --> 00:38:05.257
And it's a supernatural transformation.
00:38:05.336 --> 00:38:07.777
It happens at the time when God chooses.
00:38:08.378 --> 00:38:09.358
It happened to me.
00:38:09.458 --> 00:38:12.221
It's happened to all Christians today.
00:38:12.561 --> 00:38:13.240
in some way,
00:38:13.561 --> 00:38:15.101
shape or form throughout their life.
00:38:15.442 --> 00:38:16.822
I happened to have one of those eureka
00:38:16.862 --> 00:38:19.302
moments where the Spirit just came upon me
00:38:19.342 --> 00:38:21.903
and it was a night and day difference
00:38:22.385 --> 00:38:23.784
within a few seconds.
00:38:24.965 --> 00:38:27.346
Other people have had very different
00:38:27.385 --> 00:38:27.925
experiences,
00:38:27.967 --> 00:38:29.407
many have had a similar experience.
00:38:29.447 --> 00:38:33.809
But yeah, the unbeliever,
00:38:35.509 --> 00:38:37.429
it's not actually possible for them to
00:38:38.090 --> 00:38:40.070
know the truth of Jesus Christ
00:38:41.021 --> 00:38:42.202
without the Holy Spirit.
00:38:42.541 --> 00:38:47.304
And Pascal had a really good point,
00:38:47.365 --> 00:38:48.947
I think, in his Ponses.
00:38:48.987 --> 00:38:49.586
He said that,
00:38:49.927 --> 00:38:51.608
and I think we're learning more and more
00:38:51.648 --> 00:38:52.869
about this sort of thing now with the
00:38:52.909 --> 00:38:53.730
way that people,
00:38:53.869 --> 00:38:56.251
the works of people like Jonathan Haidt
00:38:56.291 --> 00:38:57.753
and the idea of the elephant and the
00:38:57.793 --> 00:38:59.833
rider, that people are actually, you know,
00:39:00.394 --> 00:39:04.577
driven by stronger emotional needs than
00:39:04.657 --> 00:39:06.898
their rational self would care to,
00:39:08.179 --> 00:39:08.380
as he says,
00:39:08.440 --> 00:39:10.021
reason is the slave to passion, you know.
00:39:10.998 --> 00:39:12.981
And we're learning more and more that
00:39:13.041 --> 00:39:15.402
actually when you try to convince people
00:39:15.422 --> 00:39:17.885
through an argument or a proposition,
00:39:18.965 --> 00:39:19.967
they're much more likely,
00:39:20.007 --> 00:39:21.248
even if they have a good argument,
00:39:21.288 --> 00:39:23.550
to feel more convinced by what they
00:39:23.570 --> 00:39:24.269
already believe.
00:39:24.309 --> 00:39:25.271
And we know this.
00:39:25.291 --> 00:39:26.851
We've seen this particularly in the
00:39:26.871 --> 00:39:27.632
political sphere,
00:39:27.652 --> 00:39:30.074
which is often more financially and
00:39:30.094 --> 00:39:32.317
emotionally charged even than religion.
00:39:32.856 --> 00:39:34.338
But yeah,
00:39:34.378 --> 00:39:37.121
so I think Pascal had a really good
00:39:37.161 --> 00:39:37.460
point,
00:39:37.521 --> 00:39:38.141
which is that
00:39:40.163 --> 00:39:42.023
Often the best way to help people come
00:39:42.063 --> 00:39:43.905
to that place where they can receive
00:39:43.945 --> 00:39:46.907
revelation and then reach stage three is
00:39:47.208 --> 00:39:49.510
you have to help them to believe,
00:39:49.849 --> 00:39:53.873
and in some cases actually that this does
00:39:53.893 --> 00:39:54.293
happen,
00:39:54.672 --> 00:39:55.914
that they feel like they've got there
00:39:55.934 --> 00:39:56.594
themselves.
00:39:56.775 --> 00:39:58.416
You're not trying to convince them to
00:39:58.436 --> 00:39:59.836
change their mind necessarily,
00:40:00.297 --> 00:40:01.858
or if it's your argument that changes
00:40:01.878 --> 00:40:02.358
their mind.
00:40:02.378 --> 00:40:04.199
Because let's be honest,
00:40:04.820 --> 00:40:07.983
no Christian came to Christ with...
00:40:08.722 --> 00:40:10.483
proposition one, proposition two,
00:40:10.684 --> 00:40:11.403
conclusion three.
00:40:11.423 --> 00:40:13.605
That almost never happens, does it?
00:40:13.644 --> 00:40:16.244
The reason we believe is because we've had
00:40:16.264 --> 00:40:17.706
that personal encounter.
00:40:17.806 --> 00:40:19.606
And I think all of the discussions and
00:40:19.626 --> 00:40:21.847
the debates and the arguments for and
00:40:21.887 --> 00:40:23.748
against God are really interesting,
00:40:24.288 --> 00:40:26.668
but they're not as compelling as being
00:40:26.728 --> 00:40:28.108
able to have that relationship with
00:40:28.128 --> 00:40:31.489
somebody and to listen to their doubts,
00:40:31.530 --> 00:40:32.750
listen to their concerns,
00:40:33.451 --> 00:40:36.150
and help them to arrive at the place
00:40:36.190 --> 00:40:37.672
that we know they need to be at
00:40:38.530 --> 00:40:40.451
to receive the revelation,
00:40:40.471 --> 00:40:41.891
which is a supernatural encounter,
00:40:41.971 --> 00:40:42.251
isn't it?
00:40:43.791 --> 00:40:45.931
Yeah.
00:40:46.012 --> 00:40:48.672
Okay, so the question is, as an apologist,
00:40:49.273 --> 00:40:51.793
then of what use are intellectual
00:40:51.853 --> 00:40:53.494
arguments or evidence or whatever?
00:40:55.474 --> 00:40:57.556
I think there's a mistake that I made
00:40:57.635 --> 00:41:00.177
a lot when I was young and naive
00:41:00.277 --> 00:41:00.717
was that
00:41:01.344 --> 00:41:03.286
With the right set of arguments,
00:41:04.166 --> 00:41:06.907
it was a matter of just simply showing
00:41:06.947 --> 00:41:08.588
them this and then they do that.
00:41:09.510 --> 00:41:11.190
It was like fixing a car.
00:41:11.471 --> 00:41:12.510
You've got the right wrenches,
00:41:12.530 --> 00:41:13.472
you go to the right place,
00:41:13.492 --> 00:41:15.193
you tweak that, and the car is ready.
00:41:15.813 --> 00:41:17.793
It's not that way, as you pointed out.
00:41:17.974 --> 00:41:18.494
However,
00:41:18.554 --> 00:41:20.976
there is a point I find in a
00:41:21.036 --> 00:41:22.657
person's life, in certain people,
00:41:23.297 --> 00:41:24.378
and as you might put it,
00:41:24.438 --> 00:41:26.039
depending on their left brain or right,
00:41:26.579 --> 00:41:29.061
there is a point where they actually want
00:41:29.521 --> 00:41:31.463
to have maybe a little more rational
00:41:32.063 --> 00:41:33.824
they're looking for they're looking for
00:41:33.844 --> 00:41:36.025
some rational justification maybe
00:41:36.065 --> 00:41:39.188
something just a little bit more solid or
00:41:39.289 --> 00:41:41.769
more intellectual to put their to to
00:41:41.829 --> 00:41:44.211
justify putting their faith in here and
00:41:44.251 --> 00:41:47.074
that's where i find the arguments are are
00:41:47.233 --> 00:41:50.476
useful but the arguments are not useful if
00:41:50.536 --> 00:41:53.538
they're not at that stage i think it's
00:41:54.038 --> 00:41:56.920
probably more important in general after
00:41:56.960 --> 00:41:58.561
years as an apologist to speak to the
00:41:58.601 --> 00:41:59.322
heart of a person
00:42:00.251 --> 00:42:01.632
rather than to their mind.
00:42:01.731 --> 00:42:03.434
It's not a dichotomy, mind you,
00:42:03.574 --> 00:42:06.596
but I will find that I will accomplish
00:42:06.657 --> 00:42:08.657
much more in general by speaking to
00:42:08.697 --> 00:42:10.900
people's hearts.
00:42:10.920 --> 00:42:11.581
The emotion.
00:42:12.101 --> 00:42:13.382
If I could...
00:42:14.983 --> 00:42:16.824
Someday I would love to play,
00:42:16.945 --> 00:42:18.005
I don't play the violin,
00:42:18.025 --> 00:42:19.266
but if I could play the violin,
00:42:19.367 --> 00:42:21.748
a particular song that would speak so
00:42:21.809 --> 00:42:23.731
powerfully to a person's soul that they'd
00:42:23.911 --> 00:42:26.313
all put their faith in Jesus Christ,
00:42:27.393 --> 00:42:28.155
I actually think...
00:42:29.143 --> 00:42:31.206
that in some ways is pa i think
00:42:31.246 --> 00:42:33.891
god has used even a song to bring
00:42:33.931 --> 00:42:34.751
people to christ
00:42:35.458 --> 00:42:36.318
for certain people.
00:42:36.739 --> 00:42:38.380
It just touched their soul in a certain
00:42:38.400 --> 00:42:40.742
way, and suddenly, as Jesus says,
00:42:40.902 --> 00:42:42.663
no one comes to the Son unless the
00:42:42.682 --> 00:42:44.083
Father draws that person.
00:42:44.643 --> 00:42:46.666
But sometimes the Father draws that person
00:42:46.945 --> 00:42:48.427
through music, through nature,
00:42:48.827 --> 00:42:49.467
through intellectual,
00:42:49.507 --> 00:42:51.309
but it'll always draw them to Christ,
00:42:51.369 --> 00:42:52.710
not to some ambiguous,
00:42:53.289 --> 00:42:56.032
nebulous kind of pantheism or something,
00:42:56.052 --> 00:42:57.753
but it has to come to Christ.
00:42:57.793 --> 00:42:59.293
So let's say a person has put their
00:42:59.313 --> 00:43:00.074
faith in Christ,
00:43:00.735 --> 00:43:02.516
and they're now in the next stage.
00:43:03.710 --> 00:43:05.813
Uh, what would you say about that?
00:43:05.914 --> 00:43:06.675
And, and do you,
00:43:06.996 --> 00:43:09.661
would you bring left right brain into the
00:43:09.681 --> 00:43:11.425
third stage or you you'd prefer to wait
00:43:11.465 --> 00:43:13.188
to the fourth or what would you have
00:43:13.208 --> 00:43:13.849
to say about that?
00:43:13.889 --> 00:43:14.210
James?
00:43:17.222 --> 00:43:17.443
Yeah, I mean,
00:43:17.463 --> 00:43:19.423
I would bring it into the third stage.
00:43:19.443 --> 00:43:21.164
I think Sheldon makes a very good point,
00:43:21.184 --> 00:43:23.445
which I also made in the video,
00:43:23.726 --> 00:43:26.206
the original video, which is, it's not,
00:43:26.766 --> 00:43:29.327
we mustn't think of it as an exact
00:43:29.608 --> 00:43:30.867
linear process,
00:43:30.907 --> 00:43:32.728
a creep from stage one all the way
00:43:32.768 --> 00:43:33.750
to stage five.
00:43:33.769 --> 00:43:34.909
You know,
00:43:34.929 --> 00:43:37.891
I think there are times when we will
00:43:38.010 --> 00:43:39.751
have particular strengths and expertise,
00:43:39.771 --> 00:43:42.373
which will tap us into certain areas of
00:43:42.652 --> 00:43:43.672
left and right brain,
00:43:43.713 --> 00:43:44.574
of the more intellectual,
00:43:44.594 --> 00:43:45.353
the more spiritual,
00:43:46.373 --> 00:43:49.155
There'll be places when we dip in and
00:43:49.275 --> 00:43:49.335
out,
00:43:49.356 --> 00:43:50.675
there'll be places when we're perhaps on
00:43:50.715 --> 00:43:52.617
the cusp of another stage and we're
00:43:53.018 --> 00:43:54.018
bouncing around.
00:43:54.737 --> 00:43:56.739
Life's a continual journey of exploration.
00:43:56.820 --> 00:43:59.141
I quite like the idea of the
00:44:00.501 --> 00:44:01.501
circumambulation,
00:44:01.541 --> 00:44:03.242
the idea that Jung talks about where
00:44:03.842 --> 00:44:05.143
There's a centre point,
00:44:05.164 --> 00:44:07.125
but we keep circling round it because our
00:44:07.184 --> 00:44:08.346
experience just keeps...
00:44:08.646 --> 00:44:09.746
There's nothing new under the sun,
00:44:09.766 --> 00:44:10.266
let's face it.
00:44:10.286 --> 00:44:12.387
So we're going to keep going back and
00:44:12.447 --> 00:44:15.429
round and encountering the same things to
00:44:15.449 --> 00:44:17.612
do with philosophical propositions,
00:44:18.092 --> 00:44:19.032
to do with suffering,
00:44:19.052 --> 00:44:20.313
to do with life challenges,
00:44:20.353 --> 00:44:24.715
to do with our own changes in status
00:44:24.755 --> 00:44:25.235
and stature.
00:44:25.255 --> 00:44:28.838
So, yeah, I think stage three is...
00:44:30.286 --> 00:44:31.507
It's the place where we've had the
00:44:31.568 --> 00:44:32.329
encounter,
00:44:32.648 --> 00:44:35.193
but I think as per the parable of
00:44:35.213 --> 00:44:36.034
the talents,
00:44:36.695 --> 00:44:39.637
I think it's not a place to stay
00:44:39.677 --> 00:44:41.300
around longer than one needs to.
00:44:41.360 --> 00:44:43.923
I think, I said in the video,
00:44:43.943 --> 00:44:45.465
and it's maybe a bold proposition,
00:44:45.505 --> 00:44:48.648
but I suspect actually the most...
00:44:52.340 --> 00:44:55.481
The majority of Christians are probably in
00:44:55.561 --> 00:44:59.083
stage three and haven't moved beyond that.
00:44:59.103 --> 00:45:01.344
Majority doesn't mean almost all.
00:45:01.385 --> 00:45:03.246
It just means there are more people in
00:45:03.266 --> 00:45:04.246
this context, I think,
00:45:04.266 --> 00:45:06.467
in stage three than the other stages.
00:45:06.507 --> 00:45:08.407
Because I think, you know,
00:45:08.507 --> 00:45:14.550
and this taps into why people don't make
00:45:14.570 --> 00:45:16.452
that transition from two to three,
00:45:16.492 --> 00:45:16.731
you know.
00:45:17.954 --> 00:45:22.519
What Christianity is asking of people to
00:45:22.599 --> 00:45:25.402
commit their lives to Christ, you know,
00:45:26.083 --> 00:45:27.304
it's life-changing.
00:45:29.947 --> 00:45:32.550
To take it to its full potential,
00:45:33.871 --> 00:45:35.653
requires an awful lot of courage.
00:45:36.153 --> 00:45:37.934
I don't think we talk enough about that
00:45:37.994 --> 00:45:38.516
as Christians.
00:45:39.956 --> 00:45:42.318
The courage to be transformed,
00:45:45.121 --> 00:45:47.043
the adventure of truth-seeking.
00:45:48.623 --> 00:45:50.364
Everybody is a unique individual,
00:45:51.206 --> 00:45:55.650
and that means that they have a potential
00:45:55.690 --> 00:45:57.871
for their own journey that nobody else
00:45:57.931 --> 00:45:58.512
has.
00:45:59.273 --> 00:46:01.193
God has especially created that person for
00:46:01.213 --> 00:46:02.235
a particular journey,
00:46:02.815 --> 00:46:02.996
and
00:46:04.204 --> 00:46:07.786
there is no greater adventure for that
00:46:07.826 --> 00:46:09.746
person, for that individual, to say,
00:46:10.547 --> 00:46:13.568
I am going to believe what's true in
00:46:13.628 --> 00:46:15.911
terms of whatever the proposition could be
00:46:15.951 --> 00:46:17.632
in front of me, whether that's philosophy,
00:46:17.731 --> 00:46:19.112
politics, science, whatever it might be,
00:46:19.193 --> 00:46:19.693
economics.
00:46:20.432 --> 00:46:23.114
I just want to know what's true about
00:46:23.275 --> 00:46:25.096
the world that's being created,
00:46:25.576 --> 00:46:26.677
the world I'm in,
00:46:27.356 --> 00:46:29.518
and wherever that leads me,
00:46:30.438 --> 00:46:31.780
will be my adventure.
00:46:31.840 --> 00:46:32.121
Now,
00:46:32.942 --> 00:46:34.682
I don't I think that is a that
00:46:34.742 --> 00:46:36.425
is quite an unnerving proposition for
00:46:36.445 --> 00:46:38.447
people because people like their safe
00:46:38.467 --> 00:46:38.907
spaces,
00:46:38.947 --> 00:46:40.068
they obviously have all sorts of
00:46:40.688 --> 00:46:42.530
personality profiles in terms of the big
00:46:42.550 --> 00:46:46.074
five they have, we have, you know,
00:46:46.094 --> 00:46:47.295
different strengths and weaknesses,
00:46:47.335 --> 00:46:49.878
we have different levels of anxiety and
00:46:51.744 --> 00:46:52.826
It's a big ask.
00:46:53.025 --> 00:46:54.786
And I think, yes,
00:46:54.827 --> 00:46:57.168
there will be lots of different elements
00:46:57.228 --> 00:46:58.210
of stage three,
00:46:58.469 --> 00:46:59.990
but I don't think it's a place that
00:47:00.030 --> 00:47:03.813
we're invited to stay any longer than we
00:47:04.213 --> 00:47:04.653
ought to.
00:47:04.713 --> 00:47:08.956
I think it's a necessary stage and we
00:47:08.976 --> 00:47:10.597
should pass through it as soon as we
00:47:10.617 --> 00:47:10.898
can.
00:47:10.918 --> 00:47:13.059
And that's obviously a very complex set of
00:47:13.079 --> 00:47:13.320
challenges.
00:47:14.271 --> 00:47:15.913
ways that we should do that.
00:47:15.934 --> 00:47:18.715
But it's certainly about tapping into our
00:47:18.795 --> 00:47:19.757
own potential.
00:47:20.217 --> 00:47:22.659
And I think if we allow,
00:47:22.719 --> 00:47:23.380
as Jesus would say,
00:47:23.719 --> 00:47:25.221
allow the truth to set you free,
00:47:26.282 --> 00:47:29.204
we become liberated from worldly things as
00:47:29.244 --> 00:47:29.965
best as we can.
00:47:32.030 --> 00:47:33.913
we want to be moving on as fast
00:47:33.932 --> 00:47:34.434
as we can, I think.
00:47:34.454 --> 00:47:34.673
Well,
00:47:37.536 --> 00:47:39.940
you had said in the video that it's
00:47:39.980 --> 00:47:41.422
sort of like going from that milk to
00:47:41.442 --> 00:47:42.842
the meat when you,
00:47:43.003 --> 00:47:44.965
when you're starting to, okay,
00:47:45.166 --> 00:47:46.186
you were a child.
00:47:46.286 --> 00:47:46.847
Now you're,
00:47:47.804 --> 00:47:49.166
Now you're going to that next or you're
00:47:49.186 --> 00:47:49.585
a baby.
00:47:49.686 --> 00:47:52.248
Now you're going to the next step of
00:47:52.268 --> 00:47:53.869
starting to renew the mind and stuff like
00:47:53.909 --> 00:47:54.130
that.
00:47:54.210 --> 00:47:55.391
So I like that.
00:47:55.411 --> 00:47:56.831
Like, OK,
00:47:56.871 --> 00:47:58.693
this is an area where you can start
00:47:58.733 --> 00:47:59.574
to see some.
00:47:59.614 --> 00:48:01.896
Oh, you now have some teeth.
00:48:01.956 --> 00:48:02.516
Let's use them.
00:48:04.836 --> 00:48:07.998
I also think what you just said there
00:48:08.038 --> 00:48:10.219
also reminds me of the analogy of marriage
00:48:10.259 --> 00:48:13.179
that God uses throughout the scriptures.
00:48:13.739 --> 00:48:16.641
And you said something about in stage
00:48:17.001 --> 00:48:17.400
three,
00:48:17.440 --> 00:48:19.260
you want to move into the point where
00:48:19.840 --> 00:48:21.121
I'm willing to go with the truth.
00:48:21.242 --> 00:48:22.222
I want to go with the truth.
00:48:22.282 --> 00:48:23.661
I'll be totally committed wherever it
00:48:23.702 --> 00:48:24.242
takes me.
00:48:24.943 --> 00:48:27.342
And this is very closely related to what
00:48:27.402 --> 00:48:28.503
a good marriage is.
00:48:28.583 --> 00:48:29.664
So a good marriage is
00:48:30.367 --> 00:48:32.367
which is what I think when God's using
00:48:32.387 --> 00:48:34.650
the analogy of marriage, it's all in.
00:48:35.510 --> 00:48:37.490
I've known marriages where they are
00:48:37.552 --> 00:48:38.092
married,
00:48:38.251 --> 00:48:40.974
but they still might burn a candle in
00:48:41.014 --> 00:48:43.014
the window for an old flame they had
00:48:43.054 --> 00:48:43.755
in the younger days.
00:48:44.436 --> 00:48:45.376
That doesn't work.
00:48:46.197 --> 00:48:47.677
And in the Christian analogy,
00:48:48.461 --> 00:48:50.762
they're willing they like the idea of
00:48:50.802 --> 00:48:52.422
eternal life they like the idea of
00:48:52.623 --> 00:48:54.704
confessing their sins but at the same time
00:48:54.724 --> 00:48:57.023
there's certain things they're holding on
00:48:57.083 --> 00:49:00.324
to that aren't very healthy at all say
00:49:00.704 --> 00:49:03.585
a moral thing or an attitude thing and
00:49:03.626 --> 00:49:05.106
so that's going to hold them back and
00:49:05.126 --> 00:49:07.027
it's going to keep them in stage three
00:49:07.067 --> 00:49:09.686
they'll never move on until they're ready
00:49:10.367 --> 00:49:13.148
to just uh to really be using the
00:49:13.168 --> 00:49:15.068
analogy of marriage it's it's a hundred
00:49:15.088 --> 00:49:16.588
percent in and you don't know
00:49:17.521 --> 00:49:19.782
where that's going to go down the road
00:49:19.922 --> 00:49:21.242
as far how deep it is,
00:49:21.302 --> 00:49:22.422
how far it's going to take you.
00:49:23.342 --> 00:49:25.143
But that analogy of marriage, I think,
00:49:25.163 --> 00:49:25.782
is important.
00:49:26.023 --> 00:49:27.804
I've seen a lot of people just stay
00:49:27.824 --> 00:49:30.264
in stage three, as you said.
00:49:30.284 --> 00:49:32.505
Yeah, that's really good.
00:49:32.724 --> 00:49:33.405
Just to add to that,
00:49:33.485 --> 00:49:35.525
I think sometimes I think Christians are
00:49:35.545 --> 00:49:38.385
quite uncomfortable talking about the need
00:49:38.405 --> 00:49:40.306
to progress because it can sound a bit
00:49:40.347 --> 00:49:41.867
like judgment.
00:49:42.467 --> 00:49:44.487
But I think if we were to...
00:49:46.293 --> 00:49:49.494
If we were to construct a five-stage model
00:49:49.534 --> 00:49:51.454
of anything that's worth pursuing,
00:49:51.494 --> 00:49:52.454
whether it be, I don't know, say,
00:49:52.494 --> 00:49:54.456
team management or, as you say, marriage,
00:49:56.376 --> 00:49:58.717
you wouldn't want to see people staying in
00:49:58.777 --> 00:50:01.297
stage three of anything else that's
00:50:01.757 --> 00:50:03.498
perhaps more concrete and specific,
00:50:04.237 --> 00:50:05.438
as you say, like a marriage.
00:50:06.237 --> 00:50:08.438
If people were just happy to sort of
00:50:08.498 --> 00:50:10.338
dwell in the realm of stage three,
00:50:10.778 --> 00:50:12.019
not put each other first as much as
00:50:12.039 --> 00:50:12.480
they could,
00:50:12.860 --> 00:50:13.400
not try and
00:50:14.039 --> 00:50:15.221
help the other one grow as much as
00:50:15.280 --> 00:50:17.282
possible in Christ,
00:50:17.402 --> 00:50:19.684
have relaxed attitudes towards certain
00:50:19.704 --> 00:50:24.007
values that marriage at its best upholds,
00:50:25.467 --> 00:50:26.829
as I said, with team management.
00:50:26.869 --> 00:50:29.431
So, yeah, I think absolutely.
00:50:29.791 --> 00:50:31.612
Why would we want to,
00:50:31.873 --> 00:50:33.454
if we got a hint or got a
00:50:33.514 --> 00:50:36.376
sense that there are stages beyond which
00:50:36.516 --> 00:50:37.697
we are currently residing,
00:50:38.077 --> 00:50:39.778
why on earth would we want to stay
00:50:39.838 --> 00:50:40.079
in them?
00:50:44.809 --> 00:50:46.510
We've got about ten minutes here before
00:50:46.550 --> 00:50:47.291
the top of the hour.
00:50:47.311 --> 00:50:48.532
We can stay a little bit longer,
00:50:48.552 --> 00:50:52.514
but James, do you have a cutoff?
00:50:52.574 --> 00:50:53.655
No, absolutely.
00:50:53.675 --> 00:50:54.695
Carry on.
00:50:54.735 --> 00:50:56.077
There's so much to unpack, isn't there?
00:50:56.117 --> 00:50:58.579
Kirk does have an eight-hour drive ahead
00:50:58.619 --> 00:51:01.199
of him, but that's okay.
00:51:01.521 --> 00:51:03.961
There's often a tailwind in the area that
00:51:04.021 --> 00:51:05.262
can help him get home sooner.
00:51:05.342 --> 00:51:06.884
The...
00:51:08.945 --> 00:51:11.246
So, yeah, let's move on to the four.
00:51:11.646 --> 00:51:13.469
I'm very interested in the left brain,
00:51:13.509 --> 00:51:16.150
right brain aspect of things because I
00:51:16.170 --> 00:51:19.293
think that's what is new compared to,
00:51:19.353 --> 00:51:19.532
like,
00:51:19.632 --> 00:51:22.295
angle scale and the different things that
00:51:22.355 --> 00:51:24.036
we've talked about in the past.
00:51:25.237 --> 00:51:25.458
Yeah,
00:51:25.478 --> 00:51:26.778
if you can drill into that a little
00:51:26.798 --> 00:51:29.240
bit, that would be great.
00:51:29.360 --> 00:51:30.201
Yeah,
00:51:30.221 --> 00:51:32.422
I think what's interesting about the
00:51:32.463 --> 00:51:35.025
divergences in stage four is
00:51:35.929 --> 00:51:36.829
Well, two things really.
00:51:36.869 --> 00:51:37.329
Firstly,
00:51:38.291 --> 00:51:40.050
it doesn't seem to me often that that's
00:51:40.751 --> 00:51:43.231
a particular path people consciously
00:51:43.291 --> 00:51:43.771
choose.
00:51:43.871 --> 00:51:47.313
I think when they start to get into
00:51:47.333 --> 00:51:49.213
the realms of stage four,
00:51:50.414 --> 00:51:53.474
often either because of family influence,
00:51:53.494 --> 00:51:55.016
their church denomination,
00:51:55.556 --> 00:51:57.836
They're different, varying backgrounds.
00:51:58.418 --> 00:52:00.398
They tend to naturally fall, I think,
00:52:00.478 --> 00:52:01.838
into one of the two camps.
00:52:01.878 --> 00:52:03.280
I mean, they're the extremes, of course.
00:52:03.300 --> 00:52:04.740
They will be people in stage four who
00:52:05.760 --> 00:52:07.541
can bounce somewhere between the two,
00:52:07.621 --> 00:52:09.782
but haven't fully got to the integrated
00:52:09.822 --> 00:52:11.344
part of stage five.
00:52:12.123 --> 00:52:14.646
Again, I'll give you a quote from Pascal,
00:52:14.686 --> 00:52:15.346
which I really like.
00:52:16.425 --> 00:52:16.804
He says,
00:52:18.085 --> 00:52:22.606
a man doesn't find greatness by being at
00:52:22.726 --> 00:52:23.768
one extreme or the other,
00:52:23.967 --> 00:52:27.469
but by touching both extremes and filling
00:52:27.528 --> 00:52:28.710
all that lies between.
00:52:28.750 --> 00:52:30.389
I think that's a really profound
00:52:30.449 --> 00:52:32.271
observation because
00:52:33.452 --> 00:52:35.394
And I'd say the same with politics and
00:52:35.414 --> 00:52:36.755
all of the different things that people
00:52:36.795 --> 00:52:38.036
tend to be divisive about.
00:52:39.117 --> 00:52:42.161
You ought to be able to understand the
00:52:42.221 --> 00:52:45.123
extreme position of your opponent.
00:52:45.483 --> 00:52:47.907
It's very useful in apologetics to
00:52:47.947 --> 00:52:49.827
understand where the unbeliever's coming
00:52:49.869 --> 00:52:50.128
from.
00:52:50.568 --> 00:52:52.811
But for someone who's in stage four,
00:52:53.791 --> 00:52:55.072
I find a lot of the people in
00:52:55.492 --> 00:52:56.793
either side of stage four,
00:52:56.813 --> 00:52:58.655
they tend to be a bit dismissive,
00:52:58.715 --> 00:53:00.255
actually, of the other side.
00:53:00.295 --> 00:53:01.876
Some of the hyper-intellectuals might
00:53:01.916 --> 00:53:05.719
think that the super-spiritual right-brain
00:53:05.759 --> 00:53:07.460
people, well,
00:53:07.659 --> 00:53:09.581
they may have strange beliefs that don't
00:53:09.641 --> 00:53:11.302
accord with scientific empiricism.
00:53:11.322 --> 00:53:15.043
They may have things that make a good
00:53:17.184 --> 00:53:20.166
conceptual lever for atheists to want to
00:53:20.186 --> 00:53:22.108
bring down the faith and undermine it,
00:53:22.208 --> 00:53:22.507
you know.
00:53:23.414 --> 00:53:26.097
if they have certain beliefs that might
00:53:26.117 --> 00:53:28.519
not fall within the purlieus of empirical
00:53:28.539 --> 00:53:29.041
science.
00:53:29.440 --> 00:53:31.764
And I think the people on the other
00:53:31.784 --> 00:53:37.811
side, the hyper-spiritual, they tend to...
00:53:39.351 --> 00:53:41.452
perhaps not focus enough on some of the
00:53:42.853 --> 00:53:44.673
deeper analytical elements too.
00:53:45.914 --> 00:53:48.235
But equally the people on the
00:53:48.275 --> 00:53:49.836
hyper-analytical side,
00:53:50.516 --> 00:53:53.898
sometimes they hold back or they don't
00:53:53.938 --> 00:53:57.159
understand just how much of the Holy
00:53:57.219 --> 00:53:59.822
Spirit-driven life that we can have to
00:54:01.041 --> 00:54:03.922
by being able to empty ourselves more and
00:54:03.943 --> 00:54:07.425
more into hearing his word and his
00:54:07.485 --> 00:54:12.586
presence and maybe having more time in
00:54:12.726 --> 00:54:15.228
solitary contemplation and listening to
00:54:15.248 --> 00:54:15.449
God.
00:54:15.469 --> 00:54:16.188
So I think, yeah,
00:54:16.228 --> 00:54:17.829
that people naturally tend to...
00:54:18.746 --> 00:54:20.086
divergent to one of those.
00:54:20.106 --> 00:54:22.188
And I think they can look at each
00:54:22.228 --> 00:54:25.469
other with a bit of suspicion because that
00:54:25.489 --> 00:54:26.509
really explains, I think,
00:54:26.568 --> 00:54:28.969
why the need for stage five to try
00:54:29.010 --> 00:54:31.351
to integrate those two and to see that
00:54:31.391 --> 00:54:34.233
both extremes have really valuable
00:54:34.793 --> 00:54:35.672
elements to them,
00:54:35.813 --> 00:54:37.753
but they're not the whole potential that
00:54:37.793 --> 00:54:39.635
we have or can have.
00:54:41.567 --> 00:54:43.989
I've been looking at deconversion for the
00:54:44.009 --> 00:54:45.871
last five years and listening to a lot
00:54:45.911 --> 00:54:48.713
of testimonials on why people who were
00:54:48.753 --> 00:54:51.494
pastors, missionaries, seminary graduates,
00:54:52.215 --> 00:54:53.496
why they abandoned their faith.
00:54:53.516 --> 00:54:55.438
And as I listened to their testimonial,
00:54:56.659 --> 00:54:59.222
one thing that was strikingly absent from
00:54:59.661 --> 00:55:01.264
their description of what their Christian
00:55:01.304 --> 00:55:03.686
life had been like prior to abandoning
00:55:03.706 --> 00:55:04.146
their faith
00:55:05.425 --> 00:55:07.067
What was strikingly absent,
00:55:07.146 --> 00:55:08.228
now it might have been there,
00:55:08.248 --> 00:55:09.449
it's just that I didn't mention it,
00:55:09.550 --> 00:55:12.833
was experiencing the presence of God.
00:55:12.853 --> 00:55:15.577
And I think a lot of people might,
00:55:15.737 --> 00:55:17.139
on the left brain side,
00:55:17.179 --> 00:55:18.722
might see this as, well,
00:55:19.041 --> 00:55:20.344
and they would list all the things they
00:55:20.364 --> 00:55:21.804
believe, the statements of faith,
00:55:22.509 --> 00:55:23.389
at various points.
00:55:23.429 --> 00:55:25.110
They would even discuss arguments for and
00:55:25.130 --> 00:55:26.990
against the existence of God.
00:55:27.610 --> 00:55:30.692
But they never talked about God as if
00:55:30.731 --> 00:55:32.992
they had any relationship with him.
00:55:33.012 --> 00:55:35.313
It would be like a man divorcing his
00:55:35.373 --> 00:55:40.175
wife and citing a number of, let's say,
00:55:40.215 --> 00:55:42.016
logistical reasons for doing so,
00:55:42.096 --> 00:55:45.117
but never talking about the personal,
00:55:45.157 --> 00:55:48.057
emotional experience of that person that
00:55:48.097 --> 00:55:49.139
they once experienced.
00:55:49.699 --> 00:55:51.639
and so this is where when you're talking
00:55:51.659 --> 00:55:54.081
about the left and the right brain it
00:55:54.141 --> 00:55:57.864
seems to me that it's not it shouldn't
00:55:57.884 --> 00:56:00.266
as we progress through stage four maybe
00:56:00.326 --> 00:56:03.288
towards stage five there should be a
00:56:03.527 --> 00:56:06.610
bridging of those two or more often there
00:56:06.710 --> 00:56:09.072
a person might always be predisposed to
00:56:09.492 --> 00:56:11.253
maybe being cerebral another person
00:56:11.333 --> 00:56:14.315
predisposed to say an artist who's amazing
00:56:14.695 --> 00:56:17.016
amazing at conveying emotion or paintings
00:56:17.815 --> 00:56:19.297
But nevertheless, at the same time,
00:56:19.376 --> 00:56:21.257
both of them need to have a certain
00:56:21.277 --> 00:56:23.639
amount of the other aspects of things.
00:56:23.719 --> 00:56:24.119
After all,
00:56:24.139 --> 00:56:26.940
there are Christian fundamental truths
00:56:26.981 --> 00:56:30.163
that need to be embraced by both sides.
00:56:30.902 --> 00:56:32.864
And speaking of truth,
00:56:33.505 --> 00:56:35.005
I started to look at it as more,
00:56:36.005 --> 00:56:38.088
this came out in political discussions.
00:56:38.128 --> 00:56:39.367
People say, here's the left,
00:56:39.407 --> 00:56:39.989
here's the right.
00:56:40.829 --> 00:56:43.409
And I was not satisfied with left or
00:56:43.469 --> 00:56:45.050
right because I could see problems on both
00:56:45.150 --> 00:56:45.349
ends.
00:56:45.811 --> 00:56:46.771
But as a scientist,
00:56:47.010 --> 00:56:48.931
I recall back in physics,
00:56:48.972 --> 00:56:50.871
sometimes we would use polar coordinates
00:56:50.911 --> 00:56:52.713
where you have a center point.
00:56:52.833 --> 00:56:55.713
That's the that's the origin that would be
00:56:55.793 --> 00:56:56.813
analogous to truth.
00:56:56.853 --> 00:56:57.914
This is truth here.
00:56:58.454 --> 00:56:59.954
And you could go off too far in
00:57:00.054 --> 00:57:00.894
any direction.
00:57:01.454 --> 00:57:03.335
And how far you went off could be
00:57:03.436 --> 00:57:05.456
cited as far as a distance and polar
00:57:05.476 --> 00:57:08.056
coordinates and the angle as to in which
00:57:08.117 --> 00:57:09.737
direction did you really stray from the
00:57:09.777 --> 00:57:09.998
truth.
00:57:10.518 --> 00:57:11.798
But I think in stage four,
00:57:11.878 --> 00:57:16.001
we're actually converging closer and
00:57:16.041 --> 00:57:17.101
closer to the truth.
00:57:17.561 --> 00:57:18.802
And philosophically,
00:57:18.842 --> 00:57:21.704
I find it fascinating that Jesus said he
00:57:21.844 --> 00:57:22.864
is the truth.
00:57:22.943 --> 00:57:25.505
That is the one who defines objective
00:57:25.545 --> 00:57:28.686
reality, moral reality, spiritual reality,
00:57:29.168 --> 00:57:30.668
reality of beauty and everything else.
00:57:31.268 --> 00:57:33.230
And that's maybe where we start moving
00:57:33.250 --> 00:57:34.070
into stage five.
00:57:34.510 --> 00:57:36.190
And of course,
00:57:37.492 --> 00:57:38.793
what would you like to say about stage
00:57:38.833 --> 00:57:39.452
five, James?
00:57:42.543 --> 00:57:43.563
Well, if I ever get there,
00:57:43.583 --> 00:57:44.403
I'll say more.
00:57:49.164 --> 00:57:49.724
As you say,
00:57:49.784 --> 00:57:55.907
if we remember that we're going up through
00:57:55.947 --> 00:57:56.706
Stage Four,
00:57:56.786 --> 00:57:59.387
so by the time one might get nearer
00:57:59.427 --> 00:58:00.248
to Stage Five,
00:58:00.268 --> 00:58:03.148
there'll be already a stronger sense of
00:58:03.168 --> 00:58:05.128
the integration of potentially...
00:58:06.291 --> 00:58:07.333
two extremes.
00:58:08.474 --> 00:58:09.355
In a strange way,
00:58:09.394 --> 00:58:13.197
although stage five seems to be the big
00:58:13.378 --> 00:58:13.978
aspiration,
00:58:14.998 --> 00:58:18.021
it's almost the one I feel least qualified
00:58:18.041 --> 00:58:18.802
to comment on, really.
00:58:18.922 --> 00:58:26.548
I don't know.
00:58:27.469 --> 00:58:29.532
It would just be such...
00:58:30.295 --> 00:58:32.416
an astounding thing, I think,
00:58:32.456 --> 00:58:36.219
to encounter people in stage five.
00:58:36.239 --> 00:58:36.679
And of course,
00:58:36.699 --> 00:58:41.101
stage five would perhaps have a continual
00:58:42.083 --> 00:58:44.603
journey of progression in itself as we get
00:58:44.664 --> 00:58:48.286
ever closer to Christ.
00:58:50.586 --> 00:58:54.248
to reach a stage where the heart, mind,
00:58:54.528 --> 00:58:58.809
spirit, intellect, worship, doctrine,
00:59:00.351 --> 00:59:04.152
to be so woven together in a kind
00:59:04.172 --> 00:59:07.253
of a seamless tapestry of life experience
00:59:07.273 --> 00:59:10.695
would be quite a thing to encounter.
00:59:10.735 --> 00:59:14.356
And I think, yeah, just...
00:59:17.101 --> 00:59:18.543
If the video could do one thing,
00:59:18.583 --> 00:59:20.423
this discussion on the original video,
00:59:20.543 --> 00:59:22.605
if it could do one thing for people,
00:59:22.945 --> 00:59:24.367
I would hope that it...
00:59:25.106 --> 00:59:27.246
that it gives them pause for thought to
00:59:27.286 --> 00:59:30.949
think about the potential that we all have
00:59:30.989 --> 00:59:33.150
and that where we could try to get
00:59:33.210 --> 00:59:37.612
to if we sought truth in the way
00:59:37.632 --> 00:59:40.135
that we're encouraged to by Christ.
00:59:40.295 --> 00:59:41.414
And the other thing would be, of course,
00:59:42.295 --> 00:59:44.036
the awareness of the people in stages one
00:59:44.056 --> 00:59:44.496
and two,
00:59:44.556 --> 00:59:47.978
that there are other places to go.
00:59:48.018 --> 00:59:49.840
And I think one of the things we
00:59:49.860 --> 00:59:52.400
perhaps should say as well is,
00:59:53.603 --> 00:59:56.166
We talked earlier about the way that we
00:59:56.186 --> 00:59:58.706
can see some of the most profound truths
00:59:58.728 --> 01:00:01.889
about Christianity by its absence in other
01:00:01.909 --> 01:00:02.510
things.
01:00:02.650 --> 01:00:03.451
And I think, you know,
01:00:04.931 --> 01:00:06.733
it's like the C.S.
01:00:06.773 --> 01:00:08.833
Lewis line where he says, you know,
01:00:08.853 --> 01:00:12.916
I believe in Jesus not just by looking
01:00:12.956 --> 01:00:13.436
at the sun,
01:00:13.496 --> 01:00:15.978
but by all the things that the sun
01:00:16.099 --> 01:00:16.739
illuminates.
01:00:16.780 --> 01:00:20.021
And I think when we look at the...
01:00:20.847 --> 01:00:22.728
powerful light in this world,
01:00:22.909 --> 01:00:25.670
we also see its absence in the dark
01:00:25.710 --> 01:00:26.690
things in this world.
01:00:26.730 --> 01:00:30.692
And I think that's a really potentially
01:00:30.731 --> 01:00:32.152
inspiring thing for people,
01:00:32.612 --> 01:00:36.313
is to realize that the things that are
01:00:36.373 --> 01:00:39.516
absent are also great indicators of the
01:00:39.556 --> 01:00:44.498
power and the utility of Christ's truth.
01:00:44.538 --> 01:00:45.677
Because, you know,
01:00:46.018 --> 01:00:47.719
I'm sure you're tapping into this too in
01:00:47.759 --> 01:00:48.239
America,
01:00:48.298 --> 01:00:49.780
and we certainly do this in the UK.
01:00:51.385 --> 01:00:54.547
the the identity crises of people the the
01:00:55.088 --> 01:00:58.250
you know when when nietzsche as i'm sure
01:00:58.269 --> 01:01:00.351
you know when nietzsche said god is dead
01:01:00.371 --> 01:01:03.193
you know he wasn't celebrating the demise
01:01:03.213 --> 01:01:06.675
of christianity he was he was saying be
01:01:06.715 --> 01:01:08.416
careful what you wish for and what will
01:01:08.456 --> 01:01:10.918
come in to replace the death of god
01:01:10.938 --> 01:01:12.860
because it will be something
01:01:14.764 --> 01:01:17.204
It will be something that has its own
01:01:18.005 --> 01:01:20.766
demons and problems.
01:01:20.806 --> 01:01:22.846
And we're seeing this in abundance in the
01:01:22.885 --> 01:01:23.646
world right now.
01:01:23.666 --> 01:01:25.487
And that's why I hope that something like
01:01:25.507 --> 01:01:28.106
the Five Spiritual Stages will help people
01:01:28.126 --> 01:01:29.648
to reconnect with some of the,
01:01:30.088 --> 01:01:30.768
not just the truths,
01:01:30.788 --> 01:01:32.907
but the aspirations and the places that
01:01:32.927 --> 01:01:35.028
they can aspire to.
01:01:36.255 --> 01:01:39.036
when they can escape many of the things
01:01:39.076 --> 01:01:41.416
that are causing so much anxiety and so
01:01:41.456 --> 01:01:44.838
many identity problems and so much
01:01:45.597 --> 01:01:49.518
disconsolation with not having God at the
01:01:49.539 --> 01:01:51.239
heart of their life and not having a
01:01:51.280 --> 01:01:53.681
kind of a spiritual emphasis and awareness
01:01:53.740 --> 01:01:54.121
too.
01:01:54.380 --> 01:01:57.862
So I'm hopeful that people can see it,
01:01:57.942 --> 01:01:59.262
not just in the positives,
01:01:59.282 --> 01:02:01.922
but in what may be lacking in society
01:02:01.963 --> 01:02:02.222
too.
01:02:02.963 --> 01:02:04.344
It's not in a very healthy place,
01:02:04.364 --> 01:02:04.603
is it?
01:02:07.793 --> 01:02:10.094
I was thinking about stage five as being
01:02:11.315 --> 01:02:12.856
when Jesus would often talk about the
01:02:12.936 --> 01:02:16.679
kingdom and how it is.
01:02:25.525 --> 01:02:26.146
He's frozen.
01:02:26.266 --> 01:02:27.487
Is he frozen for James?
01:02:29.405 --> 01:02:29.965
Yeah, he didn't have frozen.
01:02:29.985 --> 01:02:30.766
I indeed thought, yeah.
01:02:30.945 --> 01:02:33.648
Okay, well, while he's freezing there,
01:02:34.489 --> 01:02:35.550
I'll just say one thing.
01:02:36.389 --> 01:02:37.731
When you mentioned the importance of this
01:02:37.771 --> 01:02:39.952
video and your original one,
01:02:40.474 --> 01:02:43.516
I was in stage three around the recent
01:02:43.777 --> 01:02:44.577
point in my life,
01:02:44.637 --> 01:02:45.657
when I was about seventeen,
01:02:45.697 --> 01:02:48.519
eighteen years old, where I was, say,
01:02:48.561 --> 01:02:50.501
the president of my youth group at church.
01:02:50.601 --> 01:02:52.884
I was president of the InterVarsity at my
01:02:52.943 --> 01:02:53.244
school.
01:02:54.195 --> 01:02:57.043
But yet, oh man, I could just see,
01:02:57.123 --> 01:02:57.746
is this it?
01:02:58.027 --> 01:02:59.311
Is this it for me?
01:03:00.393 --> 01:03:01.418
And it was discouraging.
01:03:02.846 --> 01:03:03.985
And if I had listened,
01:03:04.065 --> 01:03:05.487
if I had listened to a video of
01:03:05.527 --> 01:03:07.567
this discussion, such as we had today,
01:03:08.186 --> 01:03:09.126
or I'd seen your video,
01:03:09.246 --> 01:03:12.188
it would have actually been very helpful
01:03:12.228 --> 01:03:12.527
to me.
01:03:12.628 --> 01:03:13.907
So I think in one sense,
01:03:14.827 --> 01:03:15.547
it can be.
01:03:16.088 --> 01:03:17.188
And I think at that point,
01:03:17.268 --> 01:03:20.068
what broke me out of that stage three
01:03:20.088 --> 01:03:21.489
was something we already discussed,
01:03:22.048 --> 01:03:24.309
was this concept of daily, total,
01:03:24.730 --> 01:03:26.590
surrendering myself into the hands of
01:03:26.650 --> 01:03:28.309
Jesus Christ on a daily basis,
01:03:28.730 --> 01:03:30.331
looking for the guidance of his Holy
01:03:30.391 --> 01:03:31.371
Spirit throughout the day.
01:03:32.090 --> 01:03:35.235
And that broke the barrier between,
01:03:35.755 --> 01:03:37.257
I didn't even know about stage four or
01:03:37.277 --> 01:03:37.599
five.
01:03:38.400 --> 01:03:39.460
I didn't know it existed.
01:03:39.581 --> 01:03:40.402
It was just stage three,
01:03:40.422 --> 01:03:41.364
and it was frustrating.
01:03:42.264 --> 01:03:44.086
So I think Sheldon's reading.
01:03:44.126 --> 01:03:44.728
Oh, there he is.
01:03:44.768 --> 01:03:46.309
Hi, Sheldon.
01:03:46.329 --> 01:03:46.891
My internet.
01:03:47.010 --> 01:03:47.431
What do you know?
01:03:49.947 --> 01:03:51.266
So I don't know what you guys have
01:03:51.306 --> 01:03:52.527
said for the last minute.
01:03:52.688 --> 01:03:54.007
I don't know what I was saying when
01:03:54.108 --> 01:03:54.728
I left.
01:03:56.728 --> 01:03:58.630
Where was that?
01:03:58.690 --> 01:03:58.969
Okay,
01:03:58.989 --> 01:04:01.570
so I was thinking of stage five as
01:04:02.110 --> 01:04:04.550
sort of like the kingdom that Jesus talked
01:04:04.590 --> 01:04:08.813
about and how it was totally different
01:04:08.833 --> 01:04:10.952
than what anybody ever expected it would
01:04:10.992 --> 01:04:11.213
be.
01:04:11.313 --> 01:04:12.813
And so when you think of the Beatitudes,
01:04:12.833 --> 01:04:15.333
when you think of all those areas where
01:04:15.353 --> 01:04:17.054
he'd say the kingdom is like this...
01:04:19.250 --> 01:04:20.951
And in stage four,
01:04:20.990 --> 01:04:25.692
you expect where you want to be is
01:04:25.791 --> 01:04:27.972
that, oh, I'm just like Jesus.
01:04:28.733 --> 01:04:32.914
I got to be the perfect that we
01:04:33.014 --> 01:04:34.135
strive to be.
01:04:36.057 --> 01:04:39.201
Then at the end, you're like a worm.
01:04:41.862 --> 01:04:44.186
And it's not that you've finally unleashed
01:04:44.266 --> 01:04:47.889
humility or you've reached peak humility.
01:04:48.289 --> 01:04:48.489
No,
01:04:48.570 --> 01:04:51.492
you've just actually experienced who you
01:04:51.652 --> 01:04:54.735
are in the light of sin and in
01:04:54.775 --> 01:04:56.257
the light of what?
01:04:57.800 --> 01:05:02.322
um what it would actually be to be
01:05:02.402 --> 01:05:05.063
living in that space of the kingdom and
01:05:05.143 --> 01:05:08.146
so uh that's what i think that stage
01:05:08.206 --> 01:05:10.427
five would be is like okay you're now
01:05:10.487 --> 01:05:13.467
there and it's not like enlightenment but
01:05:13.648 --> 01:05:16.630
it has that aspect of it's like you're
01:05:16.650 --> 01:05:20.572
not going to see this until that that
01:05:20.632 --> 01:05:21.813
time when um
01:05:23.331 --> 01:05:25.952
when you've actually entered that space.
01:05:26.713 --> 01:05:29.494
And so I was just thinking of that
01:05:29.594 --> 01:05:30.934
and I'm throwing it out there.
01:05:31.036 --> 01:05:32.135
I don't know if that's what you were
01:05:32.155 --> 01:05:35.458
thinking at all, but yeah.
01:05:35.518 --> 01:05:37.139
Yeah, I think that's right.
01:05:37.179 --> 01:05:38.139
And I think we...
01:05:40.048 --> 01:05:41.550
When we talk about the extremes of left
01:05:41.590 --> 01:05:42.050
and right,
01:05:42.090 --> 01:05:44.550
which pervade society and all sorts of
01:05:44.590 --> 01:05:44.951
subjects,
01:05:45.030 --> 01:05:47.911
I think on this adventure with Christ,
01:05:49.152 --> 01:05:51.432
we've talked a lot about the relationship,
01:05:51.472 --> 01:05:52.773
the heart-based element.
01:05:53.173 --> 01:05:54.393
There is a head-based element.
01:05:54.414 --> 01:05:55.594
There is a heart-based element.
01:05:56.215 --> 01:05:57.235
Both are important.
01:05:57.775 --> 01:05:59.456
We're called to be able to defend our
01:05:59.496 --> 01:05:59.755
faith.
01:05:59.775 --> 01:06:03.518
We're called to be able to explain why
01:06:03.577 --> 01:06:05.338
we believe and what are the rational
01:06:05.398 --> 01:06:06.559
justifications for that.
01:06:06.619 --> 01:06:08.539
We're also called to simulate the
01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:09.380
qualities of
01:06:10.059 --> 01:06:11.780
a marriage, a relationship,
01:06:12.141 --> 01:06:14.782
and grow in Christ in that way too.
01:06:14.882 --> 01:06:19.326
So stage five has to inevitably
01:06:20.126 --> 01:06:23.128
encapsulate both of those qualities at
01:06:23.748 --> 01:06:24.250
their best,
01:06:24.289 --> 01:06:28.192
because one is incomplete without both
01:06:28.251 --> 01:06:28.612
elements.
01:06:30.014 --> 01:06:32.554
You're likely to stay in a stage three
01:06:32.614 --> 01:06:35.376
or four unless you can integrate the two.
01:06:35.476 --> 01:06:36.677
And that's the other thing as well,
01:06:36.697 --> 01:06:37.579
when people talk about,
01:06:37.938 --> 01:06:38.739
when people want to
01:06:39.480 --> 01:06:41.481
to pin us down on why we believe
01:06:41.521 --> 01:06:42.983
and they're looking sometimes looking for
01:06:43.103 --> 01:06:44.764
arguments for why they should believe
01:06:44.784 --> 01:06:47.126
sometimes they're just wanting to to
01:06:47.146 --> 01:06:50.349
criticize why why we believe that they
01:06:50.369 --> 01:06:51.951
might say that there's a lot of evidence
01:06:51.971 --> 01:06:53.592
for god in their opinion and things like
01:06:53.632 --> 01:06:55.514
that um but
01:06:57.543 --> 01:06:59.202
I think it's important for a Christian to
01:06:59.282 --> 01:07:03.144
acknowledge that what we believe is all of
01:07:03.164 --> 01:07:05.485
the things that we've discussed and more.
01:07:06.505 --> 01:07:08.485
It's a supernatural relationship with the
01:07:08.525 --> 01:07:09.766
Holy Spirit inside us.
01:07:10.266 --> 01:07:12.246
It's a lot of reasons that we have
01:07:12.266 --> 01:07:12.907
for belief.
01:07:13.286 --> 01:07:14.907
It's a lot of experience.
01:07:15.387 --> 01:07:17.748
And I guess the best term I can
01:07:17.789 --> 01:07:19.349
come up with for it would be worldview.
01:07:21.128 --> 01:07:23.550
It's a worldview based on so many
01:07:23.590 --> 01:07:25.791
different elements of our experience and
01:07:25.831 --> 01:07:26.530
our growth
01:07:28.608 --> 01:07:30.309
the best defense we can have is to
01:07:30.369 --> 01:07:33.731
try to break down that worldview and
01:07:33.791 --> 01:07:36.653
explain to people as best we can the
01:07:36.833 --> 01:07:38.315
many, many reasons why.
01:07:38.635 --> 01:07:40.476
I couldn't possibly hope to provide
01:07:41.550 --> 01:07:43.291
the evidence that people are looking for
01:07:43.351 --> 01:07:44.994
just with a couple of succinct arguments
01:07:45.454 --> 01:07:47.235
or if I had a half an hour
01:07:47.255 --> 01:07:49.038
conversation with someone in a cafe or
01:07:49.057 --> 01:07:52.222
something, you know, and in doing that,
01:07:52.282 --> 01:07:54.804
it's about understanding the person,
01:07:54.824 --> 01:07:56.726
their experience and their journey and
01:07:56.806 --> 01:07:57.146
how,
01:07:57.887 --> 01:07:59.668
It speaks the truth.
01:08:00.309 --> 01:08:02.210
And if we try to oversimplify and just
01:08:02.311 --> 01:08:04.313
ask for quick sound bites as to why
01:08:04.913 --> 01:08:06.014
we might believe,
01:08:06.054 --> 01:08:07.896
then it's going to be inadequate to the
01:08:07.916 --> 01:08:08.556
task, I think,
01:08:08.596 --> 01:08:12.099
of coming up with a convincing reason for
01:08:12.119 --> 01:08:12.719
people to believe.
01:08:12.759 --> 01:08:18.583
It's a journey and it's a worldview.
01:08:18.663 --> 01:08:18.904
Well,
01:08:21.365 --> 01:08:22.686
I'm getting a bit antsy here at the
01:08:22.726 --> 01:08:24.667
thought of my eight-hour drive looming
01:08:24.747 --> 01:08:25.208
ahead of me.
01:08:26.377 --> 01:08:28.078
But I want to thank you, James.
01:08:28.318 --> 01:08:30.259
It's been a good conversation.
01:08:30.319 --> 01:08:32.100
And as I mentioned, when Sheldon was gone,
01:08:32.500 --> 01:08:33.701
just for the sake of Sheldon,
01:08:35.061 --> 01:08:37.542
it was something that I think a lot
01:08:37.563 --> 01:08:39.904
of people and myself back when I was
01:08:39.944 --> 01:08:41.085
in stage three and thinking,
01:08:41.145 --> 01:08:42.105
is this all there is?
01:08:42.926 --> 01:08:45.467
I think this video here hopefully will
01:08:45.847 --> 01:08:48.149
give people a taste or a preview or
01:08:48.810 --> 01:08:50.850
a hope that there's a lot more to
01:08:51.350 --> 01:08:53.912
authentic Christianity than just sitting
01:08:53.932 --> 01:08:55.554
around in stage three for the rest of
01:08:55.573 --> 01:08:56.134
their lives.
01:08:56.976 --> 01:08:58.158
Yeah, let's hope so.
01:08:58.637 --> 01:08:59.278
Yeah, thank you.
01:08:59.337 --> 01:09:01.618
It's been really good to meet and talk
01:09:01.639 --> 01:09:02.220
with you guys.
01:09:02.239 --> 01:09:04.260
And I really appreciate the opportunity to
01:09:04.480 --> 01:09:04.940
talk with you.
01:09:04.980 --> 01:09:06.180
So thank you for having me on.
01:09:06.921 --> 01:09:07.442
Our pleasure.
01:09:08.417 --> 01:09:10.018
And people can find you at
01:09:10.298 --> 01:09:13.600
philosophicalmuser.blogspot.com.
01:09:13.661 --> 01:09:17.304
And I know there's some other links in
01:09:17.344 --> 01:09:20.126
the sidebar to your YouTube.
01:09:20.225 --> 01:09:22.707
I've posted your YouTube link in the
01:09:22.747 --> 01:09:23.908
description on this video.
01:09:23.929 --> 01:09:27.011
So people go check that out there.
01:09:27.811 --> 01:09:31.095
And, yeah, you're in the writing process.
01:09:31.114 --> 01:09:33.356
You're interested in the publishing
01:09:33.396 --> 01:09:34.077
process.
01:09:34.136 --> 01:09:36.219
And so, obviously,
01:09:36.279 --> 01:09:38.199
if people subscribe to your stuff,
01:09:38.541 --> 01:09:40.402
that makes you look good.
01:09:40.702 --> 01:09:43.083
And so I recommend everybody go and do
01:09:43.123 --> 01:09:43.404
that.
01:09:44.164 --> 01:09:47.266
did that this morning and uh yeah so
01:09:47.908 --> 01:09:50.189
those of you who are interested in uh
01:09:50.350 --> 01:09:53.612
asking questions uh to kirk or myself or
01:09:53.752 --> 01:09:56.394
even james uh feel free to dump those
01:09:56.413 --> 01:09:58.475
in the comments or head over to
01:09:58.515 --> 01:10:01.118
kirkdurston.com and you can leave a
01:10:01.198 --> 01:10:04.220
message there for kirk and uh yeah head
01:10:04.239 --> 01:10:06.561
over to james's stuff and uh take a
01:10:06.582 --> 01:10:09.623
look at it it's uh very interesting uh
01:10:09.644 --> 01:10:11.784
how you've brought economics into writing
01:10:11.985 --> 01:10:12.086
and
01:10:12.706 --> 01:10:13.886
different things like that.
01:10:13.966 --> 01:10:16.328
And so I've been pursuing,
01:10:16.908 --> 01:10:19.628
perusing your stuff today and enjoying it.
01:10:20.529 --> 01:10:21.390
All right, everyone.
01:10:21.970 --> 01:10:23.770
We will be back.
01:10:24.190 --> 01:10:25.411
I don't know, in a couple of weeks,
01:10:25.490 --> 01:10:26.412
probably.
01:10:27.311 --> 01:10:29.832
I'm out of internet access next week,
01:10:29.853 --> 01:10:30.833
so I won't be around,
01:10:30.873 --> 01:10:31.673
but I know Kirk,
01:10:31.713 --> 01:10:33.994
you're dropping some other videos and
01:10:34.034 --> 01:10:35.414
stuff as we go here too.
01:10:35.534 --> 01:10:38.936
So, and you just dropped one last week.
01:10:39.216 --> 01:10:39.356
Yeah.
01:10:40.537 --> 01:10:41.979
I think, or the week before?
01:10:42.238 --> 01:10:44.060
Yeah, there's been a couple of
01:10:45.381 --> 01:10:46.122
videos that are,
01:10:46.502 --> 01:10:47.662
I'd say they were interesting,
01:10:47.743 --> 01:10:48.182
but I have a,
01:10:48.722 --> 01:10:50.422
a really big one coming up.
01:10:50.483 --> 01:10:52.243
It's on free will and what sciences
01:10:52.703 --> 01:10:55.043
sciences default position should be on
01:10:55.083 --> 01:10:55.543
free will.
01:10:55.864 --> 01:10:56.765
There'll be an article.
01:10:56.845 --> 01:10:58.564
I hope to finish it by sometime this
01:10:58.604 --> 01:10:58.864
week.
01:10:59.404 --> 01:11:00.565
So it'll be up by next week.
01:11:00.685 --> 01:11:01.886
And then immediately I want to make a
01:11:01.945 --> 01:11:04.145
YouTube video on that as well.
01:11:04.367 --> 01:11:05.287
So keep,
01:11:05.426 --> 01:11:08.447
keep your eye on for free will and
01:11:09.087 --> 01:11:11.847
what sciences default position should be,
01:11:11.948 --> 01:11:14.029
what their starting point should be on
01:11:14.069 --> 01:11:14.729
this issue.
01:11:16.177 --> 01:11:18.340
But really can science actually determine
01:11:18.380 --> 01:11:19.720
that because it wasn't already
01:11:19.761 --> 01:11:20.480
predetermined?
01:11:21.822 --> 01:11:22.363
We'll see.
01:11:22.603 --> 01:11:25.725
But I will say this, that science uses,
01:11:25.885 --> 01:11:27.546
makes decisions all the time and how they
01:11:27.567 --> 01:11:29.007
set up their experiments.
01:11:29.568 --> 01:11:31.989
And they certainly operate as if they have
01:11:32.010 --> 01:11:32.871
it, even if it is,
01:11:33.091 --> 01:11:34.311
if they deny that it is.
01:11:34.952 --> 01:11:36.252
So I want to dive into that.
01:11:36.393 --> 01:11:37.974
I dive into that article because we have
01:11:37.993 --> 01:11:40.615
to address what the objections are and
01:11:40.655 --> 01:11:42.957
what the most rational position to take in
01:11:42.978 --> 01:11:43.557
that area.
01:11:43.639 --> 01:11:44.979
And this will be more appealing to the
01:11:45.020 --> 01:11:45.520
left brain
01:11:47.193 --> 01:11:50.640
awesome awesome all right well we'll see
01:11:50.681 --> 01:11:53.649
you guys later and uh here's the video
