Ep. 48 - Seeing Double (A Wake of Vultures)

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Hello and welcome to Push Play,

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a Push Festival podcast featuring conversations with

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artists who are pushing boundaries and playing with form.

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I'm Gabrielle Martin, Push's Director of Programming,

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and today's episode highlights old school magic,

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sci-fi prayers, hybridity, and more.

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I'm speaking with Dan, Connor, and Nancy,

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the artists behind Seeing Double,

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which is being presented at the Push Festival,

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February 1st and 2nd, 2025.

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Seeing Double plays tribute to spooky late night double

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features with two performances that push pulpy cinematic

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genres into uncharted conceptual territories.

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Stripping the psychological horror genre down to its bare

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bones,

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walking at night by myself undermines the reliability of

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perception in an audiovisual blitz of surround sound and

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vivid optical illusion.

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K-Body and Mind is a cyberpunk odyssey channeled through a

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multimedia experience that reflects on tech-assisted

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immortality.

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Nancy Tam experiments with form and practices,

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dramaturgy to create immersive sonic designs and

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environmental performances for onstage and on-screen media.

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Her research triangulates between sound, space,

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and body to examine the uncanny valley of haptics.

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She was a featured artist at Prague Quadrennial,

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2023 for the Canadian Exhibition.

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Daniel O'Shea makes theater, designs projections,

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and creates films using technology and design as a keystone

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to support narrative and deepen dramaturgy.

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Daniel employs a low-fi DIY aesthetic exposing the guts of

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the performance machinery in parallel to convoluting the

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idea of spectating.

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Connor Wiley performs, writes,

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and directs experimental plays, films, and video games,

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employing devised and collaborative processes to create

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fresh and unusual worlds.

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He uses the science fiction genre to explore cultural and

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societal stories of grief, hope, and transformation.

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Here is my conversation with Dan, Connor, and Nancy.

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I just heard that this is the first time you've been in the

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same room in months.

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It's true.

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We've just been kind of off in our own little avenues and

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projects, so getting back together is like a lot of energy,

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a lot of catching up,

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a lot of silliness that's working its way out.

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This is how vultures, the creatures are, right?

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Like they fly off their solo and then they flock when

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there's something to eat.

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We're here for the ride of the reunion,

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the reunion special.

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Back together at last, now to Dan and Connor.

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I will just acknowledge that we are all in this

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conversation on the stolen ancestral and traditional

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territories of the Coast Salish peoples, the Musqueam,

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Squamish and Tsleil-Waututh.

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I'm a settler here and it's my responsibility to continue

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thinking and educating myself on the history and the

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ongoing effects of colonization.

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And that looks like different things, different days.

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And today it's a reflection on inspired by Malcolm

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Ferdinand's Decolonial Ecologies,

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where he talks about this colonial and environmental double

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fracture of modernity.

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So referring to how humans have institutionalized

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hierarchies of white humans over non-whites and humans over

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nature,

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allowing the extractivism of colonization and nature and

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the exploitation of nature.

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And that the climate crisis really can't be addressed

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without connecting the environmental movement with the anti

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-colonial movement.

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Great book, recommend it.

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And it's definitely some important thinking shared within

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it.

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So I'm going to jump right into some questions about wake

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of vultures for people who don't know.

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So wake of vultures is a project based interdisciplinary

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performance company formed in 2013.

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It's a research development and producing vehicle for the

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three of you who began bonding over a shared fascination in

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social rituals, science fiction, anime,

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and questions of reality and perception.

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So to be together for over 10 years beyond shared

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fascinations, what is the secret?

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What is the glue?

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Is it like this perfect balance of astrological signs or

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something more pragmatic?

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The glue is actually just friendship and pleasure in each

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other and deep,

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kind of profound interest in each other and how we think

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and how we engage with the world.

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And yeah,

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I think that more than anything has kind of seen us through

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the space in between projects and the hard times inside of

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projects and yeah,

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all the kind of bumpiness that can come with.

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creative partnerships.

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I totally agree with that.

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And I think like, you know,

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sometimes when you think about artistic partnerships or

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working partnerships that are built in friendships or like

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romantic relationships and stuff like that,

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like that can also be a bit combustible, right?

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It's not always, you know,

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conducive to a professional environment.

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But I think what we have going also is that we have treated

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this as a long term relationship, you know,

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like we've helped each other to account.

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We've been, you know, we've taken time to, you know,

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take a retreat and really talk things through and get on

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the same page and not kind of like coast through.

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So it's taken a lot of, you know,

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work that comes from that like loving friendship.

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Yeah, I think also, like,

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the bond and the friendship that we share seeps into our

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working relationship in such a way that organizationally,

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we each will take leadership in various ways,

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in macro and micro ways.

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So, and by that, I mean like, macroly speaking,

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for example, like I led Walking at Night by Myself,

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Connor led K Body and Mind, and then, you know,

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Dan will lead another project.

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And it's not like a schedule thing.

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And in fact,

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we kind of watch out for one another and go like, hey man,

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like, it's been kind of, you know, two out of three,

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like we've been doing a lot of leadership.

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Like, let's, let's like how, it's not so much like,

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now it's your turn to do something.

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It's more like,

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how do we help like bring something together that then

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someone else can lead?

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And that kind of generosity is driven by love and

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friendship.

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And then in micro ways,

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like I think the ways that we drive the design led process

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is very much reliant on the trust that we have in each

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other and the respect that we have for the expertise in the

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room, where, you know,

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it's not like everyone needs to chime in all the time to

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make a decision.

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You know, it's like, oh, this, like whatever, you know,

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maybe it's like a filmic thing or setting up a shot.

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It's like, I don't, I don't really need to say anything.

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Like I do trust like Dan and his eye and what he's got

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going on, you know?

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And so there's a lot of that where I think perhaps sets us

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apart from what traditional or conventional ideas of

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devised theater or devised organization work that like I've

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always seen it as like a rolling triangle of leadership and

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rolling triangle is really like admitting to that there is

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hierarchies,

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but it is always evolving and it is always emergent and it

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is held by each other.

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and how by the trust and love that we are able to keep that

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rolling going on.

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And just, there perhaps is an astrological component.

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Oh.

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Because.

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Finally.

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I think the real heart here.

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A mutual friend of ours is very knowledgeable in this kind

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of stuff.

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And when he learned about our birthdays, he was like,

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Oh yeah, that totally makes sense.

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Because apparently each of us is like the young element of

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our like element family.

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You can really see how much I know.

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Go on.

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So as a, as a cancer, I'm like a young water sign.

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And as this is a real test.

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Yeah.

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As an Aries.

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Connor is a young fire sign.

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Yes.

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And as a.

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No, Jesus.

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When's my birthday, Dan?

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As a Gemini, Gemini.

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Yeah, obviously.

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So Gemini of you right there.

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Nancy is a young air sign.

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And so even though we are all different in our elements,

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we are kind of connected in this whatever it means to be a

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young.

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Thing, you know, that resonates.

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Beautiful.

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We're just three young things.

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I would love to actually just circle back to what you said,

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Nancy, about design led process.

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Can you talk a little bit more about that?

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Sure.

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And like you'll chime in as well.

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What I what I think is a design led process is informed by

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my experience with other companies as well.

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But within this constellation,

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my practice based in performance making with a huge

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component of it under the lens of sound design and and

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Daniel with his, you know,

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performance practice and composition practice like but

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under the lens of visual design and for Connor narrative

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design,

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it is really like thinking around like form and content

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working together rather than going like a straight route of

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like first we have a script and then we design for it.

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So a lot of our processes will actually come from a

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different realized design elements such as sound design,

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such as projection design.

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And then we develop other elements around it,

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so that's what I mean by design-led process.

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What are you guys?

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And sometimes it can be processes curious about a kind of

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effect in the audience or like a gag or a trick or some,

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yeah,

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some kind of phenomenon that we're interested in manifesting.

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And then in exploring, okay, well,

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what are the ways that we can create this?

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Like, can we create this sonically?

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Can it happen through the staging?

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Can it happen through the narrative or the character or

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dialogue or something like that?

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Finding all these ways to like,

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get at the same audience experience and then having,

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taking all of those and then forming a show and linking

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them together into, okay, how do we craft that experience?

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So PKD work show function somewhere like that about,

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trying to structure the audience's perception of what layer

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of the show that they were engaging with,

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or walking definitely functions like that in terms of

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trying to activate a kind of perceptual landscape through

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all of these kind of tools and the design.

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And the performance character of K-Body of Mine was very

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much like foundational before the narrative.

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And this kind of approach to take the structural elements

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and put them in first,

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and then trying to build a flesh around that kind of has

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led us to make, I don't know,

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what we think of it as like a different road to a show.

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Dan,

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if you could give us just like a little synopsis or like a

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little background context on PKD Workshow since you

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mentioned it, like what is it?

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Oh,

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PKD Workshow was one of the first shows that we did together.

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And the three of us, plus Sean.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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And that was interested in playing around with kind of

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layers of performance.

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So it had a kind of raw workshop layer put on top of it.

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And then as the workshop went on,

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it was revealed that actually a lot of things were

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rehearsed and a lot of things were prepared.

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And so it played with, at what level am I really,

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at what level is the show being honest with me?

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And it was based around Philip K.

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Dick and his work, his science fiction work,

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and a lot of his like reality bending kind of pulpy DNA.

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Yeah.

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I want to talk more about what, like, are there comments?

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00:13:50,580 --> 00:13:54,240
So, your work is marked by formal detachment, ritual,

265
00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:56,980
and unstable perspectives, to name a few.

266
00:13:57,500 --> 00:13:58,880
Can you speak more to that?

267
00:13:59,160 --> 00:14:03,280
I think we all just have a kind of general aesthetic

268
00:14:03,280 --> 00:14:05,580
interest in trippiness, you know,

269
00:14:05,740 --> 00:14:08,160
in stuff that kind of bends your mind a bit.

270
00:14:10,140 --> 00:14:10,720
And so,

271
00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,720
I guess that's the thing that I've been doing for many

272
00:14:13,720 --> 00:14:15,780
years in a lot of my projects, right?

273
00:14:15,780 --> 00:14:18,700
It's just like picking a kind of container that sort of

274
00:14:18,700 --> 00:14:21,880
maybe mischievously proposes that it's one thing,

275
00:14:21,980 --> 00:14:24,540
and then it inverts itself midway.

276
00:14:27,800 --> 00:14:30,040
I think the unstable perspective, you know,

277
00:14:30,060 --> 00:14:31,900
that really speaks to PKD.

278
00:14:32,040 --> 00:14:34,940
I think it also speaks to K-body and mind,

279
00:14:35,380 --> 00:14:37,000
so does the formal detachment,

280
00:14:37,600 --> 00:14:42,880
in that the work itself is kind of a puzzle on the surface.

281
00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,600
All the elements are kind of pulled apart.

282
00:14:46,000 --> 00:14:46,660
uh, you know,

283
00:14:46,780 --> 00:14:50,620
as you sort of like hear the sort of radio play, um,

284
00:14:51,080 --> 00:14:53,520
sound design and the voice acting,

285
00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:57,060
but then pair it with this kind of like disembodied robotic

286
00:14:57,060 --> 00:14:58,160
performance style.

287
00:14:59,080 --> 00:15:02,100
Um, this detachment, um,

288
00:15:02,540 --> 00:15:05,100
causes you to kind of like fill in the blanks yourself,

289
00:15:05,100 --> 00:15:06,360
make a movie in your head.

290
00:15:06,700 --> 00:15:09,180
Um, and that was kind of inspired, you know, a long,

291
00:15:09,720 --> 00:15:12,360
a long time ago, the kind of formalism of Robert Wilson,

292
00:15:12,360 --> 00:15:13,200
um,

293
00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:15,680
or the minimalism of Richard Maxwell and the New York city

294
00:15:15,680 --> 00:15:16,080
players.

295
00:15:16,380 --> 00:15:18,220
And I, and I know goes back further to,

296
00:15:18,220 --> 00:15:20,120
to Brecht and stuff like that too.

297
00:15:20,220 --> 00:15:21,780
So I think there's like some,

298
00:15:21,980 --> 00:15:26,260
some old school theater detachment that has always been

299
00:15:26,260 --> 00:15:27,560
interesting to me anyway.

300
00:15:28,140 --> 00:15:29,460
I don't know if there's more that you guys want to say

301
00:15:29,460 --> 00:15:29,680
about.

302
00:15:30,420 --> 00:15:34,480
I think the, the ritual element in that, um,

303
00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:39,100
is often played out in how we exist in the rooms together

304
00:15:39,100 --> 00:15:42,700
when we're, we're making, um, there's,

305
00:15:43,260 --> 00:15:45,180
I don't know if it's a tendency or at this point,

306
00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:49,180
it's a conscious act, active, uh, drive,

307
00:15:49,180 --> 00:15:54,580
but we do tend to fall into rituals for any given project,

308
00:15:55,420 --> 00:15:59,240
whether it's, um, you know, arriving in a certain way or,

309
00:15:59,240 --> 00:16:01,020
um, you know,

310
00:16:01,020 --> 00:16:05,940
trying to manifest whatever values are feel appropriate for

311
00:16:05,940 --> 00:16:06,400
that project.

312
00:16:06,400 --> 00:16:08,180
But, um, this,

313
00:16:08,400 --> 00:16:14,420
this sense of submitting to a kind of structure, a chosen,

314
00:16:14,580 --> 00:16:16,460
a chosen structure based on values and,

315
00:16:16,460 --> 00:16:21,440
and desired outcomes, it's like, um, yeah,

316
00:16:21,500 --> 00:16:25,420
I feel like we do become open to being what,

317
00:16:25,860 --> 00:16:30,240
what we need for to fulfill that, that ritual or that show,

318
00:16:30,380 --> 00:16:30,760
you know?

319
00:16:31,560 --> 00:16:33,260
If I may elucidate a little bit though,

320
00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:34,420
like the ritual thing, right?

321
00:16:34,460 --> 00:16:35,820
Like this gets specific about it, right?

322
00:16:35,820 --> 00:16:39,760
Like there's all sorts of rituals that, you know, many, uh,

323
00:16:39,820 --> 00:16:42,580
rehearsal practices might have like a check-in or some kind

324
00:16:42,580 --> 00:16:44,860
of hunker at the end of the day to kind of let the day go

325
00:16:44,860 --> 00:16:45,660
and.

326
00:16:46,000 --> 00:16:48,200
we kind of get interested in like making our own versions

327
00:16:48,200 --> 00:16:50,280
of that based on whatever thing we're working on.

328
00:16:50,380 --> 00:16:51,540
So in PKD work show,

329
00:16:51,860 --> 00:16:54,460
we had a little sci-fi prayer that we would do at the end

330
00:16:54,460 --> 00:16:57,760
of the day to kind of try to invoke the sort of spooky

331
00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,320
ghost of PKD in a way.

332
00:17:01,840 --> 00:17:05,300
I'm remembering when we were making a short piece for

333
00:17:05,300 --> 00:17:05,740
Blink,

334
00:17:05,839 --> 00:17:08,400
which is an event that Leaky Heaven puts on every once in a

335
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:09,800
while, you know,

336
00:17:09,839 --> 00:17:12,220
we had our notebooks full of like one minute performances

337
00:17:12,220 --> 00:17:13,859
that we were gonna do, you know, and we're like, okay,

338
00:17:13,880 --> 00:17:15,119
let's make a top five, you know,

339
00:17:15,119 --> 00:17:16,880
that would be a common ritual for people to do.

340
00:17:16,960 --> 00:17:18,099
What's our top five here, you know?

341
00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:19,760
And then we were like, for fun, for ourselves.

342
00:17:20,020 --> 00:17:22,319
We were like, let's make a dark five also, you know?

343
00:17:22,420 --> 00:17:24,800
Like what are the five ones that would be really weird for

344
00:17:24,800 --> 00:17:26,740
us to do, you know, just as a thought experiment.

345
00:17:27,099 --> 00:17:29,300
So, and then dark five has become like a,

346
00:17:29,780 --> 00:17:30,580
every once in a while and you're like,

347
00:17:30,780 --> 00:17:32,040
you need to get my bad ideas out.

348
00:17:32,140 --> 00:17:36,340
We'll just say it, move through it, find the next thing.

349
00:17:36,560 --> 00:17:39,700
So we kind of make these little custom rituals for

350
00:17:39,700 --> 00:17:41,400
ourselves and our processes, I think.

351
00:17:42,000 --> 00:17:45,320
And I think like ritual too can be referred to in a

352
00:17:45,320 --> 00:17:49,020
philosophical like definition as well as like meaning

353
00:17:49,020 --> 00:17:49,940
making, right?

354
00:17:50,140 --> 00:17:52,280
Like you're imbuing a form with meaning.

355
00:17:53,020 --> 00:17:56,420
And I think like that word, you know,

356
00:17:56,500 --> 00:17:59,740
lends itself very well in theatrical practices and has been

357
00:17:59,740 --> 00:18:02,360
for a long, long, long, long, long time.

358
00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:07,080
But I think for how it applies to us too is like,

359
00:18:07,080 --> 00:18:13,580
it's language making, it's vocabulary building, you know,

360
00:18:14,220 --> 00:18:16,860
we have all sorts of like having been friends and

361
00:18:16,860 --> 00:18:18,980
collaborators for like 10 plus years,

362
00:18:18,980 --> 00:18:20,980
like we just have so many short hands.

363
00:18:21,460 --> 00:18:25,480
There have been like conversations where Dan and I will

364
00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,300
have by simply looking at each other.

365
00:18:28,500 --> 00:18:29,340
And we're like, okay,

366
00:18:29,480 --> 00:18:31,900
and like we don't realize and then people are like, well,

367
00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,140
but can you say it out loud?

368
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:34,840
Because we don't know what just happened.

369
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,740
But like, you know, so the clarity of which are like,

370
00:18:37,740 --> 00:18:38,680
sometimes I'm that guy.

371
00:18:40,380 --> 00:18:41,520
And then sometimes this will happen.

372
00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:43,200
And then I'll be that guy, you know, and,

373
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:46,360
and I think like the ritualizing of like,

374
00:18:46,540 --> 00:18:51,100
it can also be interpreted as,

375
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:55,220
as just like building vocabulary and a language.

376
00:18:55,380 --> 00:18:58,460
And I think that is probably experienced similarly with

377
00:18:58,460 --> 00:19:01,440
different groups that come together.

378
00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:04,280
And yeah, like, you know,

379
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:08,000
trippiness or just like goofiness,

380
00:19:08,020 --> 00:19:12,700
I think there's also a lot of one upmanship of like,

381
00:19:12,700 --> 00:19:17,260
how do you like, spin a bit, you know,

382
00:19:17,360 --> 00:19:20,840
and usually those are the best, like gems that, you know,

383
00:19:20,920 --> 00:19:23,600
become part of or that, you know,

384
00:19:23,620 --> 00:19:25,960
has gone through so many iterations,

385
00:19:26,400 --> 00:19:28,140
then it loses goofiness,

386
00:19:28,180 --> 00:19:30,080
but like, it be that little spark.

387
00:19:31,400 --> 00:19:34,820
And I think like, thinking around that, like, for,

388
00:19:34,860 --> 00:19:38,780
for walking, you know, one of those things,

389
00:19:39,360 --> 00:19:41,980
trying to break this, like, it's,

390
00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,340
in between of like a just like colored globes that are

391
00:19:46,340 --> 00:19:48,240
happening to like the rest of the show.

392
00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,360
I'm like, okay, everybody, we're gonna,

393
00:19:51,140 --> 00:19:54,540
we're gonna just like make a joke in here.

394
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:57,420
And then we found like a transition in between.

395
00:19:57,800 --> 00:19:59,500
So yeah,

396
00:19:59,640 --> 00:20:04,000
I think that like ritualizing or like meaning making slash

397
00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,760
like vocabulary building,

398
00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:09,760
it feels very much connected in the ways that we work.

399
00:20:09,760 --> 00:20:12,920
Our work, I think looks like, will look pretty like,

400
00:20:13,160 --> 00:20:15,880
often looks pretty conceptually like serious, you know?

401
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,120
Like, and we take it seriously, we build it seriously,

402
00:20:20,120 --> 00:20:24,280
but we also joke around and are really silly with each

403
00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:24,560
other.

404
00:20:24,720 --> 00:20:26,200
Yeah, to make it.

405
00:20:26,620 --> 00:20:29,380
Walking at Night by Myself and Kay Body and Mind are two

406
00:20:29,380 --> 00:20:32,780
different company works that you have since realized are

407
00:20:32,780 --> 00:20:35,460
strange sisters and designed as a double feature.

408
00:20:35,780 --> 00:20:37,800
What makes these two works strange sisters?

409
00:20:38,320 --> 00:20:41,160
Walking at Night by Myself as well as Kay Body and Mind

410
00:20:41,160 --> 00:20:41,460
feature.

411
00:20:43,400 --> 00:20:48,300
performers who are very similar in like the physical

412
00:20:48,300 --> 00:20:49,820
attributes,

413
00:20:49,840 --> 00:20:54,040
and then they are also dressed in like in the same uniform

414
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:55,240
costumes.

415
00:20:56,500 --> 00:21:00,660
And this idea, this formal idea, as well as a design idea,

416
00:21:01,060 --> 00:21:06,920
actually came from K came from PKD workshop,

417
00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:10,420
which Daniel had brought up before.

418
00:21:10,420 --> 00:21:18,420
And so I think like that has always been a through line.

419
00:21:19,420 --> 00:21:23,780
It feels like that's been like become like a company

420
00:21:23,780 --> 00:21:26,960
interest to to do like same, same, but different.

421
00:21:27,940 --> 00:21:30,180
Yeah, like some,

422
00:21:30,180 --> 00:21:33,460
some desire to have like a very dim room with people that

423
00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:34,180
look the same.

424
00:21:34,580 --> 00:21:37,900
And you don't know who is who, or which is what, and,

425
00:21:38,520 --> 00:21:44,940
and how to like pin meaning or action or consequence on to

426
00:21:44,940 --> 00:21:50,160
either one that like the interchangeability of identity or

427
00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:53,440
something that I think works best on stage in person,

428
00:21:53,800 --> 00:21:56,540
because, you know, in film, you know,

429
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:59,680
you can cut in between and you can have twins.

430
00:21:59,760 --> 00:22:00,920
It's no, it's no problem, right?

431
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:02,960
But there's just something trippy about seeing two people

432
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:05,580
who look very similar and you can't quite pin down who's

433
00:22:05,580 --> 00:22:06,120
who it's like, oh,

434
00:22:06,120 --> 00:22:07,880
it's just an old school kind of magic trick.

435
00:22:10,440 --> 00:22:12,220
And I mean, with K,

436
00:22:12,320 --> 00:22:16,000
that came from a place of like wanting to see if we can

437
00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:19,360
sort of separate your identity of who you are as a

438
00:22:19,360 --> 00:22:22,360
performer on stage from from who you're playing,

439
00:22:23,380 --> 00:22:25,760
which is like in a way an old clown kind of thing too.

440
00:22:26,100 --> 00:22:31,660
But I think there's a certain trippiness that came out of

441
00:22:31,660 --> 00:22:33,700
the twinning in both of those shows that felt like they had

442
00:22:33,700 --> 00:22:34,640
resonance for each other.

443
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:38,360
And then, you know, as is often the case for us,

444
00:22:38,520 --> 00:22:41,140
we like we because we love the long been and we love to

445
00:22:41,140 --> 00:22:41,380
like.

446
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:46,320
deep play and vocabulary building that like we've accrued

447
00:22:46,320 --> 00:22:50,740
like a great group of collaborators on this right and so um

448
00:22:50,740 --> 00:22:54,820
you know Jasmine Chen was in um because Walking Dead like

449
00:22:54,820 --> 00:22:57,740
multiple iterations of casts right you you Nancy was in it

450
00:22:57,740 --> 00:23:00,320
at one point and then Angie's always been in it and then

451
00:23:00,320 --> 00:23:02,380
once you wanted to step out of the work Jasmine stepped

452
00:23:02,380 --> 00:23:04,940
into the work so there was already a doubling of casting in

453
00:23:04,940 --> 00:23:09,160
between the two shows as well um and so it just felt like

454
00:23:09,160 --> 00:23:11,340
there's some interesting like identity conflation between

455
00:23:11,340 --> 00:23:13,800
the shows you know as you see Jasmine from one show to the

456
00:23:13,800 --> 00:23:16,720
next oh do you remember her as that last role into this new

457
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:21,540
role um that feels like a resonance for me inside of those

458
00:23:21,540 --> 00:23:26,080
two works i think also like the all of these shows that we

459
00:23:26,080 --> 00:23:31,340
mentioned like really deal with like uh illusions as as a

460
00:23:31,340 --> 00:23:40,700
big part that drives the the work and um I think with

461
00:23:40,700 --> 00:23:41,660
walking,

462
00:23:42,300 --> 00:23:43,180
I'm really,

463
00:23:43,180 --> 00:23:47,340
really trying to like go to the ends of that of like, okay,

464
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:51,260
not only do you have like the two people who are dressed

465
00:23:51,260 --> 00:23:52,120
very similarly,

466
00:23:52,260 --> 00:23:57,880
now there is like illusions between or interactions of like

467
00:23:57,880 --> 00:24:00,420
the costumes and then also the projection,

468
00:24:00,460 --> 00:24:03,340
as well as you're in this, you know,

469
00:24:04,140 --> 00:24:08,320
immersive surround sound that also plays funny tricks on

470
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:14,360
your ears as well and that whereas I think like, okay,

471
00:24:15,300 --> 00:24:20,280
it feels like you start off with like almost like two very

472
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:25,960
different bodies or like two very different people because

473
00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:28,660
you also like see them both at the same time you see them

474
00:24:28,660 --> 00:24:29,280
like,

475
00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:29,940
you know,

476
00:24:30,240 --> 00:24:34,320
like considering the rest of the show was like pretty

477
00:24:34,320 --> 00:24:35,300
bright light.

478
00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:36,540
Yeah, yeah, yeah, for sure.

479
00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,300
And then and then they start to come together,

480
00:24:39,320 --> 00:24:40,740
the identity starts to overlap,

481
00:24:40,780 --> 00:24:43,960
whereas like I think in walking is the opposite where you

482
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:44,800
really propose,

483
00:24:45,120 --> 00:24:47,540
I really try to propose them as like one and the same and

484
00:24:47,540 --> 00:24:50,760
then through the length of the show that how do these

485
00:24:50,760 --> 00:24:53,740
characters or bodies individuate?

486
00:24:55,600 --> 00:24:58,940
And so like, yeah,

487
00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:04,440
I just think like kind of the long game of asking these

488
00:25:04,440 --> 00:25:06,900
questions of like, who's who's who?

489
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:09,620
When is this person themselves?

490
00:25:09,920 --> 00:25:10,320
When is it?

491
00:25:10,580 --> 00:25:11,300
When are they play?

492
00:25:11,500 --> 00:25:12,120
Are they playing?

493
00:25:12,320 --> 00:25:13,860
And when are they playing themselves?

494
00:25:14,180 --> 00:25:18,040
Like those those questions become kind of eternally like

495
00:25:18,040 --> 00:25:22,240
fascinating in our work, just overall as our, you know,

496
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:24,380
ongoing investigation.

497
00:25:24,780 --> 00:25:29,140
And there's like, there is, yeah, this duality, and this,

498
00:25:29,440 --> 00:25:31,840
the problematization of that duality,

499
00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:34,560
like walking at night by myself is the title.

500
00:25:35,280 --> 00:25:39,880
And it features two, two people that look exactly the same.

501
00:25:40,940 --> 00:25:41,960
And so the question of like,

502
00:25:42,360 --> 00:25:45,780
which often comes up with people that see the show that

503
00:25:45,780 --> 00:25:48,120
they interpret like, okay,

504
00:25:48,180 --> 00:25:49,760
is this one person with two identity?

505
00:25:49,980 --> 00:25:51,740
Is this two people walking together?

506
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:52,700
Is one of them a shadow?

507
00:25:52,940 --> 00:25:56,160
Like all of these kind of questions in the way that Kay

508
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:03,140
puts forward very straightforwardly that they're, you know,

509
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:06,600
that sense of identity is split amongst all these bodies,

510
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,060
and that one person can be another and that this,

511
00:26:11,060 --> 00:26:16,700
the whole collective project is about dispersing through

512
00:26:16,700 --> 00:26:21,280
the body and through these two bodies in this case.

513
00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:23,360
So yeah,

514
00:26:23,380 --> 00:26:28,360
I think we just started to see all of the parallels and the

515
00:26:28,360 --> 00:26:32,400
casting and the thematic material and really thought

516
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:36,640
something interesting could happen when both these play

517
00:26:36,640 --> 00:26:39,700
together and they start having a resonance with each other.

518
00:26:39,840 --> 00:26:41,540
And we really wanted to find out like what is,

519
00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:46,340
was that kind of harmonic that these two create when

520
00:26:46,340 --> 00:26:47,720
they're back to back?

521
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:49,820
Which will,

522
00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:52,480
and this scene double will premiere at Push 2025.

523
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:53,960
That's right.

524
00:26:54,420 --> 00:26:54,560
Yeah, exciting.

525
00:26:54,560 --> 00:26:55,000
I'm excited.

526
00:26:55,260 --> 00:26:56,680
Come experience the resonance.

527
00:26:58,580 --> 00:27:02,520
Let's also talk about the place of futurism and retro in

528
00:27:02,520 --> 00:27:03,060
your work,

529
00:27:03,380 --> 00:27:09,160
as terms that are referred to in how you describe key

530
00:27:09,160 --> 00:27:10,820
themes or aesthetic interests.

531
00:27:11,180 --> 00:27:13,380
This one, we're probably gonna be riffing quite a bit,

532
00:27:13,600 --> 00:27:20,120
but there's a big through line through all of our

533
00:27:20,120 --> 00:27:22,580
interests, which is like science fiction,

534
00:27:23,020 --> 00:27:25,840
speculative kind of fiction,

535
00:27:26,460 --> 00:27:31,760
a curiosity in the kind of near edge of what can be,

536
00:27:32,220 --> 00:27:34,760
what is possible and kind of where things are going.

537
00:27:35,860 --> 00:27:37,280
In a way,

538
00:27:37,300 --> 00:27:41,760
it feels like we already live in the future with the kind

539
00:27:41,760 --> 00:27:46,400
of technological changes that we've kind of seen in our

540
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:46,740
lifetime,

541
00:27:46,920 --> 00:27:54,320
but that kind of profound interest in what is possible.

542
00:27:54,780 --> 00:27:57,080
As we work in that kind of like contemporary performance

543
00:27:57,080 --> 00:28:00,560
sphere and are incorporating technologies into our work,

544
00:28:01,020 --> 00:28:03,500
sometimes it feels like there's always a push to like use

545
00:28:03,500 --> 00:28:05,120
new software, use the newest tools,

546
00:28:05,300 --> 00:28:07,100
the like whatever's available to you.

547
00:28:07,380 --> 00:28:09,040
And I definitely noticed with you, Dan,

548
00:28:09,240 --> 00:28:12,920
you're often like wiring things yourself, right?

549
00:28:12,980 --> 00:28:14,700
You're using old fluorescent tubes.

550
00:28:15,260 --> 00:28:18,500
We're doing a kind of like custom build thing that feels

551
00:28:18,500 --> 00:28:23,220
like there's so much interesting like design work that can

552
00:28:23,220 --> 00:28:26,320
be done using these old technologies in a different kind of

553
00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:30,000
way rather than always adopting the latest,

554
00:28:30,620 --> 00:28:31,720
which we do also, right?

555
00:28:31,720 --> 00:28:32,960
We are using new technologies,

556
00:28:33,180 --> 00:28:36,460
but like just having this blend, I don't know,

557
00:28:36,540 --> 00:28:37,920
allows you to have like a certain.

558
00:28:38,000 --> 00:28:41,060
criticality or like allows you to like expose the machine

559
00:28:41,060 --> 00:28:42,280
as part of the work.

560
00:28:42,980 --> 00:28:44,320
Whereas sometimes, you know,

561
00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:47,300
it's just like a projector off stage is like meant to be

562
00:28:47,300 --> 00:28:47,900
kind of invisible.

563
00:28:48,060 --> 00:28:48,740
And if you just, you know,

564
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:51,100
viewing the product of what's happening, you know, like,

565
00:28:51,100 --> 00:28:53,520
I like that we often see the like,

566
00:28:53,520 --> 00:28:56,720
the guts of the machinery inside of it.

567
00:28:56,800 --> 00:28:58,680
It's another maybe detachment that happens, right?

568
00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,900
When you see how it's made or whatever, that feels like,

569
00:29:02,140 --> 00:29:02,740
I don't know,

570
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,560
at least distinctive about your visual aesthetic,

571
00:29:05,700 --> 00:29:06,500
your design aesthetic.

572
00:29:07,040 --> 00:29:09,460
This idea of futurism is like, it's so broad.

573
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:13,000
And it also feels, I don't know, I've been just like,

574
00:29:13,040 --> 00:29:18,620
kind of thinking and reading Donna Haraway's work and

575
00:29:18,620 --> 00:29:21,120
thinking around like ideas like post humanist.

576
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:21,840
And like, obviously,

577
00:29:21,840 --> 00:29:24,740
we also encounter that and K body of mine.

578
00:29:24,940 --> 00:29:25,900
And yeah,

579
00:29:26,020 --> 00:29:29,200
I have like such complicated mixed meanings about the like,

580
00:29:30,180 --> 00:29:34,920
of the word because it feels like it's like, you know,

581
00:29:35,140 --> 00:29:36,500
some somewhere out there.

582
00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:41,200
you know, whereas I think like the mix of like,

583
00:29:41,660 --> 00:29:42,300
as Connor said,

584
00:29:42,360 --> 00:29:46,280
like the technique and also the concept kind of like

585
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:50,260
reveals like that all of our constructions conceptual and

586
00:29:50,260 --> 00:29:53,640
are practical or fallible and makes it more human actually

587
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,200
and makes it more relatable and more of now.

588
00:29:56,700 --> 00:30:01,860
And it's way more closely a reflection which, you know,

589
00:30:02,020 --> 00:30:03,920
sci-fi is a genre plays with anyhow.

590
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,920
Like, you know, it puts a far off of the future.

591
00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:10,360
It puts it off world as a reflection of what is actually

592
00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:10,920
happening.

593
00:30:12,780 --> 00:30:14,120
So I think in that way,

594
00:30:14,140 --> 00:30:17,980
both of these shows kind of do that and very abstracted

595
00:30:17,980 --> 00:30:20,900
maybe like somewhat distance ways.

596
00:30:21,920 --> 00:30:25,380
And then another thing that kind of I thought of is that

597
00:30:25,380 --> 00:30:28,360
for my own interests anyhow,

598
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:33,240
I'm always really interested in like, or not, well,

599
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,440
I don't know if it's interest, but this response to like,

600
00:30:36,540 --> 00:30:38,880
you know, everything has already been made, you know,

601
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,300
this idea of like, there's nothing new anymore.

602
00:30:41,460 --> 00:30:43,040
There's no originality anymore.

603
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:43,820
Or like, you know,

604
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:47,240
my response to it personally is just like, well, okay,

605
00:30:47,380 --> 00:30:51,420
well, if that is true, say if that is true,

606
00:30:51,480 --> 00:30:54,960
then like the newness is in the combination thereof.

607
00:30:56,260 --> 00:31:00,240
And in the little Venn diagram piece where, you know,

608
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:01,620
two old things are touching.

609
00:31:02,740 --> 00:31:07,820
So I think in the ways that we consider like the play

610
00:31:07,820 --> 00:31:13,660
between like retro or lo-fi or DIY and like, you know,

611
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:18,680
heady concepts or futurism or post-modernism or post

612
00:31:18,680 --> 00:31:24,700
-humanism is actually just getting us to look at this like

613
00:31:24,700 --> 00:31:27,680
Venn diagram of different things that have already,

614
00:31:28,060 --> 00:31:29,100
that are existing.

615
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,340
Right, and I think that comes from, for myself anyway,

616
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:38,280
it's like, have always, had to be this way,

617
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:44,120
because I'm a sound artist, but I also am a theater maker.

618
00:31:44,860 --> 00:31:49,200
And I'm always borrowing grammar and methodologies and

619
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:55,220
creation devices from both of these disciplines to making

620
00:31:55,220 --> 00:31:55,940
work.

621
00:31:56,360 --> 00:31:58,920
So by just existing,

622
00:31:59,420 --> 00:32:02,500
it has to be a hybridity of these things.

623
00:32:02,500 --> 00:32:09,780
And to create, then, a new thing and a third,

624
00:32:10,180 --> 00:32:14,740
or a conceptual or philosophical third, which conceptually,

625
00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:18,420
walking at night by myself, really try to deal with that,

626
00:32:18,540 --> 00:32:23,320
but in a phenomenological way of how do you have one

627
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:24,980
pattern and another pattern,

628
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:30,580
just simply by existing together, create something new,

629
00:32:30,580 --> 00:32:34,280
something emergent and something spontaneous and almost,

630
00:32:34,280 --> 00:32:35,820
yeah, like unrepeatable.

631
00:32:38,620 --> 00:32:40,380
That resonates for me inside of like,

632
00:32:40,580 --> 00:32:45,920
inside of K body and mind in that, you know, I don't think,

633
00:32:46,260 --> 00:32:49,180
yeah, I don't think I was trying to predict the future or,

634
00:32:49,360 --> 00:32:51,720
you know, or a future I'd it's a, you know,

635
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:53,140
it's a very imagined world.

636
00:32:54,880 --> 00:32:55,980
But, you know,

637
00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:59,700
it was a combination of it was the like excitement of

638
00:32:59,700 --> 00:33:02,060
trying to combine like, really,

639
00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:04,180
some of this like old school theatrical minimalism

640
00:33:04,180 --> 00:33:05,300
technique that I was like,

641
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:07,720
I want to see if I could push that to the edge by like,

642
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:10,120
doing it in a cyberpunk genre, right?

643
00:33:10,260 --> 00:33:12,260
Like doing the matrix doing that ghost and ghost in the

644
00:33:12,260 --> 00:33:12,540
shell.

645
00:33:14,140 --> 00:33:18,500
These kinds of like super maximalist stories to really like

646
00:33:18,500 --> 00:33:21,340
push your imagination to the to the to the edge.

647
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:23,240
Like that was the that was the jumping off point, right?

648
00:33:23,240 --> 00:33:24,480
Was this like looking back.

649
00:33:26,540 --> 00:33:29,720
And I think, you know, as we went along, like,

650
00:33:32,320 --> 00:33:37,140
I remember a moment when we were working, we were,

651
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:38,360
I was working with Leah Weinstein,

652
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:39,660
who's the costume designer.

653
00:33:40,140 --> 00:33:42,340
And, you know, the first draft of the costumes,

654
00:33:42,400 --> 00:33:43,780
as I had kind of proposed,

655
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,640
with these like sleek black costumes with these neon

656
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:50,280
stripes had a real like Tron vibe, you know,

657
00:33:50,300 --> 00:33:54,080
and I was like, Oh, it like the show sounds cyberpunk,

658
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:55,280
and the story is cyberpunk.

659
00:33:55,420 --> 00:33:56,640
And now it looks cyberpunk.

660
00:33:57,060 --> 00:33:59,820
And somehow I was like, it's not, it's not right.

661
00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:01,300
It's not doing it because they're like,

662
00:34:01,620 --> 00:34:04,620
the sort of like neon cyberpunk aesthetic was already

663
00:34:04,620 --> 00:34:07,700
playing out in a super nostalgic way on Netflix or in you

664
00:34:07,700 --> 00:34:07,820
know,

665
00:34:07,880 --> 00:34:10,900
like altered carbon was had just sort of come out and like

666
00:34:10,900 --> 00:34:12,880
altered carbon is another show that I was like, Oh,

667
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:13,100
you know,

668
00:34:13,100 --> 00:34:17,060
this is like actually a similar premise to what we have

669
00:34:17,060 --> 00:34:17,719
going on here,

670
00:34:18,260 --> 00:34:22,300
except I really didn't like I really didn't like the

671
00:34:22,300 --> 00:34:22,860
approach of it.

672
00:34:22,960 --> 00:34:24,360
I didn't like the economics of it.

673
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:26,100
I didn't like what it had to say about the future,

674
00:34:26,179 --> 00:34:28,040
you know, so that made me kind of go like, oh,

675
00:34:28,080 --> 00:34:32,120
I have to like actually disrupt the visuals and reach

676
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:34,520
further back to imagine the future.

677
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:36,460
And so we ended up landing on a kind of kind of more

678
00:34:36,460 --> 00:34:38,060
Tarkovsky in.

679
00:34:38,139 --> 00:34:39,320
You're like a solaric.

680
00:34:39,800 --> 00:34:40,420
Exactly, yeah.

681
00:34:40,820 --> 00:34:44,760
Solaris vibe that was like cozier and softer.

682
00:34:45,260 --> 00:34:49,179
And I think that really played out in how it was filmed as

683
00:34:49,179 --> 00:34:49,500
well.

684
00:34:50,679 --> 00:34:51,960
And the lighting and everything,

685
00:34:52,139 --> 00:34:58,580
the color palette that we chose, that there was like, yeah,

686
00:34:58,760 --> 00:34:59,680
a certain looking back.

687
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:02,560
And what I guess felt like in those aesthetics,

688
00:35:02,720 --> 00:35:06,520
a kind of like optimism of the future that just felt so

689
00:35:06,520 --> 00:35:08,960
like lush and warm and we were going to be cozy,

690
00:35:09,820 --> 00:35:15,380
that ended up finding its way also into the story of the

691
00:35:15,380 --> 00:35:16,940
world as well too.

692
00:35:17,440 --> 00:35:18,880
I didn't want to find this like,

693
00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:26,780
this cyberpunk dystopianism of living in these oppressive,

694
00:35:26,780 --> 00:35:27,720
realienating cities.

695
00:35:28,320 --> 00:35:33,080
It was like, and this, I mean, we live in, You know,

696
00:35:33,340 --> 00:35:35,780
some somewhat cyberpunk-y looking world now, you know,

697
00:35:35,860 --> 00:35:37,660
but it was like, oh, wait, no,

698
00:35:37,780 --> 00:35:41,080
what did these people who are living in this near future?

699
00:35:41,260 --> 00:35:42,840
What do they actually dream of, you know,

700
00:35:43,180 --> 00:35:48,940
and can they actually try to actualize their ideal society?

701
00:35:49,840 --> 00:35:52,900
Not easily, you know, it's not it's not a utopia, you know,

702
00:35:54,580 --> 00:35:54,980
but like,

703
00:35:55,260 --> 00:35:59,340
what if we earnestly tried to make this better future?

704
00:36:01,400 --> 00:36:05,320
Instead of, you know, creatively just, you know, saying,

705
00:36:05,460 --> 00:36:07,920
oh, yeah, no, corporations are going to control everything.

706
00:36:08,300 --> 00:36:11,220
And, you know, like, I had to pull myself, you know,

707
00:36:12,260 --> 00:36:18,120
out of the kind of nihilism or, you know, inevitability of.

708
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:18,600
Yeah.

709
00:36:19,720 --> 00:36:19,720
Yeah.

710
00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:20,880
Dream a little.

711
00:36:21,740 --> 00:36:22,380
Yeah, totally.

712
00:36:22,380 --> 00:36:24,300
And you referenced the film.

713
00:36:24,460 --> 00:36:27,300
So I wanted to chat about that a bit because cave body and

714
00:36:27,300 --> 00:36:29,940
mind had an iterative creation process created for the

715
00:36:29,940 --> 00:36:33,480
stage first, then turned into a film during the pandemic.

716
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:36,380
And now its final iteration integrates digital and live

717
00:36:36,380 --> 00:36:38,560
representation of the characters on the same stage.

718
00:36:39,240 --> 00:36:41,220
And so can you talk about what each layer of this

719
00:36:41,220 --> 00:36:45,300
development contributed with regard to or in terms of how

720
00:36:45,300 --> 00:36:48,240
form affected the dramaturgy of the work and what affect

721
00:36:48,240 --> 00:36:51,860
this integration of video and performance creates now?

722
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:55,620
Yeah, probably not succinctly.

723
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:56,320
Yeah.

724
00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:56,320
Yeah.

725
00:36:57,380 --> 00:36:59,660
But yeah, we, you know,

726
00:36:59,920 --> 00:37:02,420
we theater replacement supported this project in the

727
00:37:02,420 --> 00:37:04,620
beginning through through their Collider program,

728
00:37:04,900 --> 00:37:06,660
which is the sort of project based residency.

729
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,180
And so we made a 20 minute version,

730
00:37:10,720 --> 00:37:13,620
which is effectively the like the bones of like chapter

731
00:37:13,620 --> 00:37:14,060
one.

732
00:37:15,580 --> 00:37:18,760
And the whole intention was to make it a live show.

733
00:37:19,920 --> 00:37:23,180
But there was a moment after we had finished performing

734
00:37:23,180 --> 00:37:24,360
that version where we, you know,

735
00:37:24,460 --> 00:37:26,080
we didn't make documentation of it.

736
00:37:26,940 --> 00:37:31,460
And and so we shot it and very like we were instantly kind

737
00:37:31,460 --> 00:37:32,860
of like, oh, while the like,

738
00:37:32,980 --> 00:37:35,640
the kind of like glitch aesthetics of how the performers

739
00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,940
are performing and how all these layers come together

740
00:37:37,940 --> 00:37:41,500
actually lends itself really well to being on screen.

741
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:43,780
And so I put it in the back of my hand that I was like,

742
00:37:43,800 --> 00:37:46,520
okay, one day after we're finished this,

743
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:48,600
maybe I'll make a web series or something like that.

744
00:37:49,000 --> 00:37:52,720
And then the pandemic came and we, you know,

745
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,100
could no longer do the live premiere that we were slated

746
00:37:55,100 --> 00:37:55,380
for.

747
00:37:55,540 --> 00:37:58,080
And so it just became very clear right away that, okay,

748
00:37:58,100 --> 00:38:00,580
now we gotta, we gotta shoot it.

749
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:02,580
And, you know,

750
00:38:02,660 --> 00:38:05,400
we had discussed like live streams and stuff like that.

751
00:38:05,580 --> 00:38:08,740
And, you know, I knew that, you know, having, you know,

752
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:11,120
witnessed live streams happening all the time,

753
00:38:11,160 --> 00:38:14,960
the kind of like video and audio compression of the

754
00:38:14,960 --> 00:38:16,620
internet and stream, you know, it was like,

755
00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:19,220
it was not the way to represent the kind of like intricate

756
00:38:19,220 --> 00:38:20,340
design work that,

757
00:38:20,340 --> 00:38:21,920
you know, underpinned the show.

758
00:38:22,300 --> 00:38:23,940
So, and, you know,

759
00:38:24,380 --> 00:38:26,660
it just so happened that I had an amazing sound designer

760
00:38:26,660 --> 00:38:28,200
and a filmmaker.

761
00:38:28,000 --> 00:38:30,680
already on the team that understood the dramaturgy from,

762
00:38:30,780 --> 00:38:31,940
you know, the inside out.

763
00:38:33,020 --> 00:38:34,920
And so it just became very clear that it was like, okay,

764
00:38:34,920 --> 00:38:35,620
no, we'll film it.

765
00:38:35,620 --> 00:38:37,600
And then we'll release it for streaming.

766
00:38:42,300 --> 00:38:45,660
And, you know, as you were saying Nan earlier about,

767
00:38:46,220 --> 00:38:48,580
you know, just turning over, you know, trust to each other.

768
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,260
Really it was like, Dan put the whole shot list together.

769
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,680
Dan really like directed the filming of the project.

770
00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:58,860
And so we had that online release.

771
00:39:02,000 --> 00:39:06,220
And then when it finally came time to bring it back live,

772
00:39:06,780 --> 00:39:09,300
I think part of the iteration was like, man,

773
00:39:09,460 --> 00:39:12,340
we did so much work on that film and it's awesome.

774
00:39:13,300 --> 00:39:16,100
And I don't want to throw that away.

775
00:39:16,220 --> 00:39:19,160
It doesn't make sense anymore in the iterative process of

776
00:39:19,160 --> 00:39:22,280
this thing to just like to throw that away and take it all

777
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:23,380
the way back to the stage.

778
00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:25,360
And that's when we kind of,

779
00:39:25,380 --> 00:39:28,280
I think came up with the notion of the hybrid,

780
00:39:28,620 --> 00:39:29,900
the hybrid viewing.

781
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:36,060
And, you know, the work is already such a puzzle of layers.

782
00:39:36,220 --> 00:39:38,020
You know, the choreography is telling you one story.

783
00:39:38,300 --> 00:39:41,320
The lights are telling you another story that the voice and

784
00:39:41,320 --> 00:39:42,440
the text are telling you something.

785
00:39:42,660 --> 00:39:44,000
The sound is telling you something.

786
00:39:44,620 --> 00:39:47,360
And then having that extra layer of film and having the

787
00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,960
performers doubled in front of the film is just one more

788
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,360
opportunity for us to like make this show feel like it's

789
00:39:55,360 --> 00:39:56,820
calibrating itself.

790
00:39:57,100 --> 00:39:58,080
It's trying to, you know,

791
00:39:58,140 --> 00:39:59,580
it's trying to give you the unified vision.

792
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,320
It's working towards it,

793
00:40:01,320 --> 00:40:05,620
but the machine is falling apart because it's been invaded

794
00:40:05,620 --> 00:40:06,580
by this entity.

795
00:40:06,740 --> 00:40:11,920
And so it just became one extra layer inside of it that,

796
00:40:12,200 --> 00:40:14,520
you know, could, you know,

797
00:40:14,560 --> 00:40:17,180
just an extra level of the puzzle for you to figure out.

798
00:40:17,180 --> 00:40:21,340
And an extra kind of layered towards the final

799
00:40:21,340 --> 00:40:24,700
manifestation not to spoil everything,

800
00:40:24,900 --> 00:40:27,880
but the emergence and the, and the,

801
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:33,400
realization of the kind of the nascent entity, right?

802
00:40:34,220 --> 00:40:37,760
Slowly going through these mediated layers until arriving

803
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:43,520
in a body that's doing what it's saying, how it's moving,

804
00:40:44,300 --> 00:40:46,300
and how it's being present,

805
00:40:47,880 --> 00:40:51,700
which is so much of the kind of emotional through line for

806
00:40:51,700 --> 00:40:54,320
that character.

807
00:40:54,320 --> 00:40:58,980
And I think part of it too is like when,

808
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:02,160
like from the very, very, very beginning,

809
00:41:02,160 --> 00:41:04,680
like even just the script itself,

810
00:41:04,680 --> 00:41:09,340
it's like written in such a way that's way more like a TV

811
00:41:09,340 --> 00:41:10,500
script,

812
00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:17,140
like the dialogue is like way more to like a TV or like a

813
00:41:17,140 --> 00:41:20,080
movie script than it is like a play script.

814
00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:20,800
Yeah, that's true.

815
00:41:21,100 --> 00:41:25,460
So like that in itself lends so like it just lands so well

816
00:41:25,460 --> 00:41:29,860
when we saw it, it was like Well, yeah, that works.

817
00:41:31,700 --> 00:41:36,780
And knowing that it was this kind of like a radio play,

818
00:41:38,220 --> 00:41:43,040
wanted to make the sound design and the composition of it,

819
00:41:43,140 --> 00:41:47,840
the scoring, to be very much like a driver of action.

820
00:41:48,580 --> 00:41:49,460
And narrative.

821
00:41:49,760 --> 00:41:54,280
And what is actually happening is contained in the sound.

822
00:41:55,440 --> 00:41:58,160
You can just kind of trust the sound more than you can

823
00:41:58,160 --> 00:41:59,820
trust what you're seeing on stage, I think.

824
00:42:00,660 --> 00:42:01,040
Right, right.

825
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:06,000
And so when we see that combination on screen,

826
00:42:06,780 --> 00:42:09,120
you can kind of just sit back and follow.

827
00:42:09,520 --> 00:42:11,800
And then it's not, I don't know,

828
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:13,260
I've watched it like countless times.

829
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:16,160
And I often will just kind of go like, whoa,

830
00:42:16,220 --> 00:42:18,160
but they're not actually moving.

831
00:42:18,380 --> 00:42:22,140
You can kind of just get into this ride.

832
00:42:22,830 --> 00:42:31,880
And then I think part of the company, I don't know,

833
00:42:32,140 --> 00:42:35,940
maybe aesthetic, maybe just like value is like,

834
00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:39,060
we like things to be very tight.

835
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:42,780
We like to be extremely precise.

836
00:42:43,170 --> 00:42:46,800
And we like to be really good at doing that.

837
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:54,760
And when we were preparing for the live iteration and then

838
00:42:54,760 --> 00:43:00,680
for the filming, the two actors are acting live.

839
00:43:01,220 --> 00:43:04,780
I'm playing all of the sounds that you hear live.

840
00:43:05,900 --> 00:43:09,440
And part of it was just like, well, I mean, yeah,

841
00:43:09,460 --> 00:43:10,720
we can show the film,

842
00:43:11,080 --> 00:43:18,000
but there is a kind of tightness that you only get when the

843
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:20,820
stakes are higher, when you can see it happening.

844
00:43:21,220 --> 00:43:24,900
So that was kind of like part of the allure, I think,

845
00:43:24,900 --> 00:43:27,980
for us to go like, oh, how do we do that?

846
00:43:28,000 --> 00:43:28,900
get it together.

847
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,060
You know, um, and I don't know, I feel like with for us,

848
00:43:33,060 --> 00:43:34,960
it's like if there is a hard puzzle,

849
00:43:35,260 --> 00:43:39,860
it will probably try the ends of the earth to do it.

850
00:43:40,300 --> 00:43:42,540
I love what you said about this too, because I remember,

851
00:43:43,480 --> 00:43:46,940
you know, when we shot the when we shot the film, right,

852
00:43:47,000 --> 00:43:47,820
we shot runs of it,

853
00:43:47,820 --> 00:43:50,640
and then we shot took special individual shots of things,

854
00:43:50,700 --> 00:43:54,120
but like the bare bones of it are runs of the episodes,

855
00:43:54,180 --> 00:43:54,520
you know.

856
00:43:55,860 --> 00:43:58,140
And it's like people don't know that when they watch the

857
00:43:58,140 --> 00:44:00,060
when they watch it on screen, right,

858
00:44:00,180 --> 00:44:02,360
they just assume that it's been shot like a TV show would

859
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:03,280
usually be shot, right.

860
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,400
And so you kind of like in the over the course of the

861
00:44:07,400 --> 00:44:10,520
performance, get to ask that question and have it answered,

862
00:44:10,660 --> 00:44:12,640
you know, you're like, is this how did they shoot this,

863
00:44:12,640 --> 00:44:14,740
you know, and then it's like, and then as they,

864
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:15,080
you know,

865
00:44:15,140 --> 00:44:17,000
as the farmers get more and more intricate into it,

866
00:44:17,000 --> 00:44:19,940
you're like, oh, oh, they can actually do it.

867
00:44:20,240 --> 00:44:22,400
Like they get really happens in front of you, you know,

868
00:44:22,740 --> 00:44:24,360
and it's a really interesting thing of like,

869
00:44:24,380 --> 00:44:28,900
watching these two people on the screen for as long as you

870
00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:33,840
do, and then seeing them in person, in front of you,

871
00:44:34,280 --> 00:44:37,160
there's just something kind of electric that happens about

872
00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:37,700
that, you know?

873
00:44:38,000 --> 00:44:38,040
Yeah.

874
00:44:38,160 --> 00:44:40,240
Especially in that chapter two,

875
00:44:40,460 --> 00:44:43,720
where it is working with a kind of VHS logic.

876
00:44:43,720 --> 00:44:45,100
Yeah, right, right, right, yeah.

877
00:44:45,100 --> 00:44:47,240
Of the rewind and of the replay.

878
00:44:47,520 --> 00:44:49,680
And so, yeah,

879
00:44:50,180 --> 00:44:56,460
the logic of playing back a surveillance video on bodies

880
00:44:56,460 --> 00:45:01,720
actually moving through space in a forward in time, right?

881
00:45:03,560 --> 00:45:08,800
Just makes that land even more about how they are subject

882
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:13,000
to this kind of the force of the show or the pressure of

883
00:45:13,000 --> 00:45:16,100
the show to figure out what's going on and troubleshoot.

884
00:45:17,680 --> 00:45:21,720
And I think this relates to the earlier question of like,

885
00:45:21,840 --> 00:45:24,580
how is this like Strings Sisters or like,

886
00:45:25,660 --> 00:45:27,420
and why is it a double feature?

887
00:45:27,660 --> 00:45:33,300
Because we like, we love cinema and we just love,

888
00:45:33,300 --> 00:45:35,540
we love watching TV and we love anime.

889
00:45:35,820 --> 00:45:39,940
And so both of these shows are kind of inspired by filmic

890
00:45:39,940 --> 00:45:42,220
genres and filmic tropes.

891
00:45:44,220 --> 00:45:44,240
Yeah,

892
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:48,320
just like also another way that it lends itself to being a

893
00:45:48,320 --> 00:45:50,820
hybrid or like how, you know,

894
00:45:51,160 --> 00:45:55,260
something like kind of this mixing and muxing of on screen

895
00:45:55,260 --> 00:45:57,120
and on stage media.

896
00:45:57,660 --> 00:45:57,960
Thank you.

897
00:45:58,040 --> 00:46:01,200
Well, I'm excited, obviously.

898
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:03,160
Thanks, Gabriel.

899
00:46:03,460 --> 00:46:04,260
We're excited to be here too.

900
00:46:04,700 --> 00:46:05,100
But yeah,

901
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:10,400
I really am grateful for you sharing and bringing us a

902
00:46:10,400 --> 00:46:12,500
little bit deeper into your process, your approach,

903
00:46:12,500 --> 00:46:16,220
how you work together and just, you know,

904
00:46:16,420 --> 00:46:19,280
dropping in some references that are really intriguing for

905
00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:20,500
those who haven't seen the work.

906
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:23,820
Get your popcorn in, come to the theater and get scared.

907
00:46:24,120 --> 00:46:25,460
Yeah, you're gonna get scared.

908
00:46:28,380 --> 00:46:30,500
It's been such a pleasure speaking with you.

909
00:46:30,720 --> 00:46:31,220
Thank you.

910
00:46:31,720 --> 00:46:33,460
Thank you so much.

911
00:46:36,060 --> 00:46:38,760
That was Gabriel Martin's conversation with Nancy Tam,

912
00:46:39,060 --> 00:46:43,160
Daniel O'Shea, and Connor Wiley of Awake of Vultures.

913
00:46:43,880 --> 00:46:46,800
Awake of Vultures will present a double feature at the PUSH

914
00:46:46,800 --> 00:46:50,380
International Performing Arts Festival supported by Do 604,

915
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,020
K Body and Mind, and Walking at Night by Myself.

916
00:46:54,020 --> 00:46:57,540
You can take in both shows on the same night for a discount

917
00:46:57,540 --> 00:47:00,620
or purchase a single ticket to either work.

918
00:47:01,240 --> 00:47:04,280
Both performances will be at the Scotiabank Dance Centre on

919
00:47:04,280 --> 00:47:06,400
February 1st and 2nd.

920
00:47:06,760 --> 00:47:09,500
I'm Ben Charland and I produce this podcast alongside the

921
00:47:09,500 --> 00:47:10,920
wonderful Trisha Knowles.

922
00:47:11,420 --> 00:47:13,400
Original music by Joseph Hirabayashi.

923
00:47:14,140 --> 00:47:17,020
New episodes of PUSH Play are released every Tuesday and

924
00:47:17,020 --> 00:47:19,140
Friday wherever you get your podcasts.

925
00:47:20,000 --> 00:47:23,260
For more information on the 2025 festival and to discover

926
00:47:23,260 --> 00:47:26,740
the full lineup of more than 20 works of theater, dance,

927
00:47:26,940 --> 00:47:31,520
music, and multimedia performances, visit pushfestival.ca.

928
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,500
And on the next push play...

929
00:47:34,500 --> 00:47:38,700
I needed to be two or three simultaneously in the space.

930
00:47:39,500 --> 00:47:41,400
And then so I then I was like, wow,

931
00:47:41,780 --> 00:47:45,060
then pushing that idea besides and trying again to come

932
00:47:45,060 --> 00:47:46,100
back to create a solo.

933
00:47:46,100 --> 00:47:49,680
And it was really persistent for weeks that I could not

934
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:53,780
start a creation because I needed to be more than one.