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So there's ways to offer the solutions, offer the advice in an MI consistent way.
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All of it is keeping client autonomy at the forefront.
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So autonomy is a basic human need.
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It shows up in many different models of well-being.
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And when we tell people what to do, they don't have autonomy.
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So if you go back to the evolutionary psychology or evolutionary biology thing, if you tell me what to do when I do it, subconsciously or not, I've just taken a lower rank in the social order because you're you told me what to do.
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You're my boss.
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You're the superior.
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Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations.
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I'm your host, Ashley Kwame.
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As a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth, I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients.
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In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising.
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You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life.
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Together, we'll explore the human side of financial planning.
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From understanding client emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication.
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We'll also focus on your own growth because the best advisors are those who are continually evolving.
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Get ready to transform your practice and yourself.
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This is Planning and Beyond.
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Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
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I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey.
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Today we're diving into a powerful framework that really can truly transform how you approach client conversations.
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That is motivational interviewing.
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It's a framework that for many mental health practitioners, we have the outside privilege of learning about, typically in our graduate programs.
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And what has been amazing for at least me to see moving into the financial space is motivational interviewing starting to take some roots and take off for financial planners.
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I'm thrilled to be joined by my friend, I'll say friend and colleague, Derek Hagen.
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He is the director of education and communication at Money Quotient and a financial behavior specialist and about five other, I think, designations, letters there behind his name.
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And Derek is going to talk with us today and help us understand how this evidence-based approach can really enhance your practice and deepen those client connections.
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Derek, welcome to the show.
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Thanks for having me.
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It's so fun to be talking about one of my favorite topics with one of my favorite people.
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Thank you.
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I appreciate that very much.
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I couldn't imagine having this conversation with anyone else.
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It was a very obvious choice for me.
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So I'm glad that you're here and willing to share all of your wisdom today.
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Before we jump into exploring kind of what motivational interviewing is, I'd love if you wouldn't mind maybe just sharing a little bit about your journey into this model specifically.
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And maybe also like what drew you, what was it about motivational interviewing that drew you to this approach?
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Yeah.
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So my journey, I come from, I talk often in terms of exterior finance and interior finance, so nuts and bolts, mechanics of money, and relationship with money.
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So I come from the heavy math and spreadsheets, CFA, CFP style approach to financial planning.
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And somewhere in the middle 2010s, 14, 15, something like that, I started realizing that listening is a skill that let me say a lot of advisors could stand to benefit from learning more of.
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So I set out to try to learn more about listening and naive at this point that I thought that there's two groups there's bad listeners and there's good listeners, and that's that's it.
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That's all there is to it.
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So as I researched it, I learned that there's a whole maze of words that I've never heard of active listening and exquisite listening and reflective listening and empathetic listening and totally confused because I have no, I thought it breaks my belief that there's two camps.
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There's there's a bunch of camps here, apparently.
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So I happened to come across an article in Journal of Financial Planning called Exquisite Listening that person who would become my mentor, Ted Kwanz, wrote, Ted and Brad wrote.
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But this is before there's no links, there's no email addresses, so I had to spend a bunch of time figuring out what they are talking about.
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They mentioned some kind of a workshop in this article, and I had to find out what these workshops were.
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So eventually I find my way to Franklin, Tennessee, outside of Nashville, but actually outside of Franklin, somewhere just in the country in Tennessee, to this weekend-long workshop on how to listen, which is what I thought it was going to be.
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What it turned out to be it was the whole weekend about evolutionary psychology, evolutionary biology, psychology, philosophy, neuroscience, basically everything that our brains do when we're existing.
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And listening was part of that.
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That's Ted Kwantz was one of his claims to fame, is that he calls it exquisite listening.
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So I followed him from there to Creighton and did their graduate certificate.
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In his class, Financial Communication, he had us read both nonviolent communication and motivational interview as kind of a base for his style of listening.
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But through that process, I had to read the textbook, or I got to read the textbook, motivational interview, it's third edition.
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And I it was unlike anything I've ever read before.
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It felt like felt like reading the book that that magicians use.
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Like, whoa, this is how this is how this happens, this is what's going on.
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It just blew my mind.
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So I've read that book every year, probably for several years now.
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Oh my gosh, that's a clunker too.
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My goodness.
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That's a big, it's a big clunker.
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There's a fourth edition now, which is a little shorter.
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So I have moved on to the fourth edition, although I do still like the third edition better.
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But it's every time you go, every time I go through it, it's just a refresher, a reminder of it's this weird tension of this is groundbreaking stuff, but also this is super obvious stuff.
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Both of those exist at the same time.
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It's both obvious and groundbreaking that this works.
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And not that it works, just how simple can be at a high level how this communication style works to help people.
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Yeah, yeah.
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I think that that might be actually kind of maybe the next place to kind of go, because I would imagine that while you and I know motivational interviewing, and while it is starting to move its way into the financial planning space, there's probably a lot of people that this is the first time they're hearing about motivational interviewing.
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And so maybe let's just start there, kind of where you left off, like that high-level place.
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What is motivational interviewing?
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Let's maybe kind of break that down a bit.
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Yeah, I'll go to the highest level first.
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It's a conversation style, it's a way to have a conversation.
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And more specifically, it's a way to have a conversation about change.
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And there's this term that I learned through this process called ambivalence.
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Ambivalence is multiple motivations.
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It's I'm motivated to lose weight.
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I am also motivated to be healthy, I'm motivated to eat a bunch of pasta, I'm also motivated to lay on the couch and sleep in.
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All of those things are happening at the same time, even though many of those are incompatible within one another.
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So that's a high level of what ambivalence is.
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I both want A and I want B, but A and B might not be compatible.
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So what that means in the framework of motivational interview, when it kind of got its start in addiction treatment, I don't want to be addicted to the substance, but I also am addict, I want to have another hit.
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So I want both of these things at the same time.
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So all of those motivations, it's not just two, all of those motivations exist inside me already.
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I don't need somebody else to tell me you're gonna lose weight if you stop eating pasta.
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I already know that.
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I'm gonna be healthier if I go to the gym.
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I already know that.
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That's a myth, Derek.
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I feel like I feel like you can lose weight and eat pasta.
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Uh I'm gonna subscribe to that school of thought for now.
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I found one.
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I found my confirmation bias that'll help me justify.
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I'm happy to support you in that.
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So that's it.
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It's so you got this ambivalence.
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So motivational interviewing is a way to have this conversation that helps clients work through this ambivalence and see or uncover or find or discover or rediscover the motivation that they already have to make this positive change that they want in their life.
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It's a it's a way of talking to people.
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I'm not adding motivation, I'm just helping to draw out motivation to make this positive change for them.
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That's the really high level.
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It's interviewing people in a way that draws out their motivation.
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The kind of medium high is especially some creative license here.
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You're not going to see this in a textbook.
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I call it the four S's of motivational interviewing.
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So there's a spirit that goes through this, which is this has to be done in service of the client.
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It's not something that I'm doing to make somebody do what I want them to do or to get them to implement my advice.
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There's a lot of overlap here.
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I want you to implement my advice, is different from saying, I want you to make the change that you want to make.
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It might be the same thing, but if I view the lens of I want you to make the change that you want to make, that's explicitly the spirit of motivational review.
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So that's the first S.
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The second S is the stages, there's different stages that people go through.
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The FEP, they like their acronyms, speak up.
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There's engaging, which is to say, should we go on this journey together, me and the client?
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And then there's focusing, which is to say, where are we going to go?
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Where do you want to go?
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Where can I help you get?
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And then evoking is to say, why would we go there?
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That's where we find the motivation.
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And then planning is how do we get there?
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So those are the stages.
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And then there's the skills.
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Anybody with even a little bit of familiarity with motivational interviewing probably has heard of the ORs, O A R S.
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These are the skills of motivational interviewing.
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And it's really reflective listening skills, but it stands for open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, and summaries.
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I add a little bit of the Ted Klantz stuff, which is to say questions aren't as effective as statements.
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So open-ended prompts will say try to get away from using question marks.
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But we're using these skills, maybe a little differently depending on what stage we're in, but we're we're really focusing on these reflective listening skills.
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And then the fourth S is really where I really take the creative license.
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That's the speech of motivational interviewing, which is change talk, is a term that people have probably heard.
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So change talk is dialogue, it's communication in favor of change.
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And we go back to the stages, the focus is defines what changes.
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Sometimes it's easy.
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An addiction treatment is to get off, is to break the addiction.
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Sometimes it's easy, like I need to get a will because I don't have a will.
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Sometimes it's not so easy.
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Like, should I relocate to be closer to my grandkids, sell my house and move, or should I just increase my travel budget and go to them more and bring them to me more?
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I can't define what that is, but once the client defines that they want to relocate, that becomes change talk.
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Any dialogue in favor of doing that becomes changed talk.
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Any dialogue or speech that goes against that is set called sustained talk, rest of tones call it status quo talk.
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So medium high level, we're using these four S's, reasoning skills of motivational interviewing different at different stages, differently at the different stages, draw out a certain kind of speech, keeping the spirit in mind.
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So that one's probably a little more in the weeds, but it it helps to see that there's a process like to this.
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I appreciated that kind of breakdown around like the four S's, right?
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So when we're thinking about motivational interviewing, there is a spirit to it.
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And some of that I spirit and kind of intention or way of thinking around it.
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And I love what you said.
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I'm just kind of in that place of spirit, and where I hear a lot of advisors, they'll say things like, I just need to get my clients motivated to do this, or if I could just motivate them to do X, Y, and Z.
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And from a motivational interviewing from that spirit place, it's changing that, reframing that thinking to it's not about you getting them to feel motivated.
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It's about drawing that out.
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And there's a wonderful process here with MI going through, as you said, then the stages and then the skills and the speech there.
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So I think that's a wonderful framework that I hope everyone is listening here, jotting down some notes or maybe earmarking some timestamps, because I think that going through kind of each of those four S's, as you said, will give you all of the creative license for that.
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Walking kind of through those, I think can be a really great maybe starting place for rethinking how you are engaging and working with clients, maybe particularly those who are stuck.
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If we talk about maybe kind of some other kind of ways where advisors can start to implement this.
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And I guess I'm laughing because I'm just imagining maybe Clayton specifically here as kind of like that advisor that's hearing this for the first time.
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No offense, babe.
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Like hearing this, like maybe for the first time and is like, oh my goodness, like this is a little overwhelming.
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I'm kind of like tracking what you guys are saying here, but this is a little overwhelming in terms of implementation.
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Do I have to read this big book once a year for like the next five years in order to be an expert in it?
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Let's talk a little bit about what are some maybe key techniques in motivational interviewing that advisors can start using immediately.
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Where can they start, Derek?
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Yeah, first let me talk about this expertise because William Miller, one of the founders of it, has said, I'm still learning this.
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And he invented it.
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So it's it's hard to it's hard to even say that this is something that you can perfect when the founder is still saying, I'm still learning this stuff.
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So give yourself permission to say, I can learn and I can keep learning.
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You don't have to be an expert in this.
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Now, I would say the low-hanging fruit is they talk about something called the writing reflex, or at least they used to call it the writing reflex.
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In the fourth edition, they call it the fixing reflex.
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I still like the alliteration of writing reflex.
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Fixing reflex is it doesn't roll off the tongue as easy, but they their point is that it's the instinct we have to jump in and fix something.
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This is true for humans, it's certainly true for people in helping professions like financial planners and financial advisors.
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It happens with your friends too.
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You know, somebody is doing something, and you know, because this is what you do all the time, because it's your job or it's your hobby, or you've done this for your whole life, you say that you're not doing that right.
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There's a thing you need to be doing better.
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And so you say that.
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You say, Hey, you should do this, or you might want to do that, or I do it this way.
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That reflex kills or has a tendency to kill conversation.
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Because most of the time, people already know that that's not enough.
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Knowledge isn't enough.
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So the low-hanging fruit is to resist the writing reflex.
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If you're gonna feel it, let it go and see what happens.
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You can still, there's a time later to offer advice or to offer solutions, but when your friend or your client or whoever you're talking to is trying to articulate a point, jumping in with the you're feeling this reflex and acting on this reflex to fix them is less likely to get them to make that positive change anyway that they want to make.
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In fact, when people are ambivalent, that is, let's just use two examples.
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I want two things.
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And if you, the advisor, argue one side of my ambivalence, Derek, you you want to lose weight and you want to keep eating pasta.
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And no matter which side you argue, say, Derek, pasta, don't you get it?
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That's just a bunch of cards, and you're gonna be tired all the time, and you're just gonna make you gain all this weight.
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You know, it puts me out of balance because I'm keeping this delicate balance when I'm ambivalent.
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And so you argue one side, it tips the scales.
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So I often will get myself back to equilibrium.
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And you hear, yeah, but if you hear yeah, but that's an indication that they're arguing the other side.
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Well, yeah, but this is my favorite meal.
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This is most of my dishes that I eat, or this is so delicious, pairs well with great wines and so on.
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Or maybe you argue, argue the other side.
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You, Derek, you only live once.
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Drink the wine, who cares?
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Eat the pasta, it doesn't matter, live it up, you're not gonna be here long.
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And I'll say, Yeah, but when I weigh 20 pounds more, it's harder on my knees and it's kind of an active guy, you're not even listening to me.
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So, no matter which side you argue to an ambivalent person, they're gonna argue the other side to keep that balance.
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And then people tend to believe what they hear themselves saying.
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So when we let this writing reflex dictate what we say, we make it easier for them to stay the same, or we make it easier for them to not implement what they want to do.
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So I would say that the the low-hanging fruit is to just one resist the writing reflex.
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And then two, it's I don't know if this is in the books, but I sometimes call motivational interviewing strategic reflective listening.
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So it's reflective listening done in a strategic way, depending on the stage that you're at.
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And I often draw, and people who know me know I draw these stupid little drawings.
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One of the drawings I draw is a little flow chart.
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In the lower left, it's this is what your client means.
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I've got thoughts, unarticulated thoughts.
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We've got, I've seen as high as 70,000 but 40,000, 50,000 thoughts a day, unarticulated.
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So we have all these thoughts, most rendering ahead.
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And then you ask a question, or a client tries to articulate something.
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So they say something, but what they say might not be what they meant, especially if this is the first time trying to articulate something.
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And then what they say, you have to hear.
00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:32.720
And this is the line that I would say most people, not just advisors, but most people think listening is you said the words, I heard the words.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:39.759
But even if I heard all the words you said, and even if you said exactly what you meant, now I have to make an interpretation of why what I think you meant.
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:49.519
So there's this long chain here of clients say something that they might not mean, and you hear something that they might not have said, and then you decode this, which might not be the proper decoding of what they said.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:55.839
So reflective listening is to close the loop and to say it sounds like, and then say what they were saying in your own words.
00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:58.559
Basically, here's what I here's what I thought you meant.
00:17:58.640 --> 00:17:59.119
Is that right?
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:05.519
And they'll say yes, and you look like you're a great listener, or they'll say no and correct you, and they're happy to do so.
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:06.720
So you close the loop.
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:09.119
That's uh strategic reflecting piece.
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:22.960
So another piece of lower hanging fruit is to just start to learn reflective listening, start to offer what we call reflections, just to check in for understanding, put on a curiosity hat and see why are you saying this?
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:24.400
Here's what I think you mean.
00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:25.440
Is that close?
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:26.240
What's different?
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:28.640
What would you change about what I what I just said?
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:35.519
So between those two pieces, learning or leaning into and learning about reflective listening and avoiding the writing reflex.
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:38.400
I think those are the two two things that'll get you a lot of the way there.
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:52.480
I think that those are great starting points is because it's likely there are many, many just humans just in general, but advisors that I hear at least that they'll acknowledge, like, yes, I struggle with that writing reflex.
00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.279
Hey friends, we'll be right back with the episode.
00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:07.039
But before we do, I wanted to take a quick second to let you know about what we do at Beyond the Plan and how we support financial advisors who are committed to growth.
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:14.880
At Beyond the Plan, we specialize in integrating financial and client psychology to enhance your advisory practice.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:26.319
From client meeting facilitation, advisor training and coaching, even client onboarding strategies, we are your implementation partner and dedicated in-house expert.
00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:35.599
Visit our website at beyondthefp.com to learn more about our services and how we can collaborate to elevate your practice.
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:43.200
Together, let's go beyond the plan to deliver meaningful client experiences that foster long-lasting relationships.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.440
Now, back to the episode.
00:19:51.200 --> 00:20:10.799
So if they're gonna make some moves into trying to resist that impulse, resist that reflex, if a client is talking and they're bringing up a problem, like this is what I'm struggling with, and they're going on and on, would resisting that writing reflex, from your opinion, would it be then more that reflective listening?
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:16.640
Or what if they're not going, if they're gonna resist walking in and giving solutions, like what then should they do?
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.720
How should they respond in those moments if they're not giving advice and solutions?
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:21.680
Tell me more.
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:24.240
That was actually the the advice.
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:32.000
So you can lean into so the the skills of look of MI are open-ended questions or open-ended prompts, affirmations, reflections, and summaries.
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.400
Reflections are just one of those uh skills.
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:37.519
So closing the loop, checking in for understanding.
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.200
And if you got really into the weeds, there's different ways that you can reflect.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:46.880
You can reflect different things to move the conversation forward, but at this high level, reflecting for understanding.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:51.200
But asking open-ended prompts, open-ended questions, tell me more about that.
00:20:51.359 --> 00:21:07.279
So I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on this and help them talk, help them articulate what's going on in their mind until they feel like they've talked about everything that they need to talk about or they've offered you enough information that you can offer advice later.
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:13.920
And in the MI consistent way, we're maybe a little in the weeds here, but you offer advice with permission in motivational interviewing.
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.759
So illicit provide illicit, and that that's used in a couple of different ways.
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:19.599
One is eliciting permission.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:21.119
So I've got some ideas.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:23.119
Is it okay if I tell you what's worked for other people?
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:25.680
And then they'll say yes, usually.
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.519
If they say no, you honor the no.
00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:31.279
This again, this isn't a reverse psychology trick or something like that.
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:40.559
Most people want to hear what you have to say, but by asking permission, you've opened the door, they've opened the door to be willing to receive that information.
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:44.400
And sometimes, even if they ask you, hey, what do you think I should do?
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:47.599
Permission there is implicit in the fact that they asked you for it.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:54.319
But even then, you can still do use the illicit provide illicit instead of saying you should do this or here's what I would do.
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:57.200
You can say, Have you heard about Roth IRAs?
00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:58.720
What do you know about Roth IRAs?
00:21:58.960 --> 00:21:59.920
What do you know about Roth IRAs?
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:00.559
Conversions.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:02.160
What do you know about life insurance?
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:03.839
And then they'll tell you what they know.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:09.680
And then you can, is it okay if I fill in the gaps or tell you a little bit more about why I think this is a good strategy for you?
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:15.039
So there's ways to offer the solutions, offer the advice in an MI consistent way.
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.559
All of it is keeping client autonomy at the forefront.
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.759
So autonomy is a basic human need.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:24.000
It shows up in many different models of well-being.
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:28.400
And when we tell people what to do, they don't have autonomy.
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:41.680
So if you go back to the evolutionary psychology or evolutionary biology thing, if you tell me what to do and I do it, subconsciously or not, I've just taken a lower rank in the social order because you're you told me what to do, you're my boss, you're the superior now.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.000
Wiring is still kind of with us.
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:48.400
Most of us wouldn't be able to articulate what's happening there, but it's I use this joke.
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:51.039
And you see it in every comedy almost.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.240
The joke is I was gonna go, you know, shovel the driveway.
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.720
And then my wife said, Hey Derek, go shovel the driveway.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:58.400
And I said, Well, no, I don't want to do it.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:02.400
Or I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna do it because I want to do it, not because he told me to do it.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:02.640
Yeah.
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:07.519
So it's a joke, but it's a joke because that's fundamentally how we are.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:12.400
So offering advice and motivational interviewing is to keep client autonomy in play.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:16.640
So we're not offering the writing reflex, we're avoiding the rating reflex.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:25.839
We're learning more about what they've already tried, we're learning more about what's worked for them, and then when it's time, we offer advice with permission and we elicit what they already know.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.519
We keep them in in the loop, we keep them as part of the process.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:36.319
I like how you framed that in terms of how to offer it, but it is also okay to give advice too.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:45.920
I think that's where maybe sometimes I hear that advisors get stuck is like, okay, I'm supposed to do all this listening, but like part of my job is actually to also give advice.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.240
And yes, that is true.
00:23:48.400 --> 00:24:00.400
That is a big part of what you are being paid for, drawn into, and knowing how to give that advice, though, I think in such a way that invites really the client in to want to receive it.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:02.160
I think you said it beautifully.
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.480
You put it out there wonderfully.
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:23.680
I'm curious, though, if you know, advisors start implementing some of these lower hanging fruit strategies, or if they start getting into a little bit more of the framework, though, from what you've seen from your perspective, are there any maybe pitfalls, red flags?
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:31.839
Like what are some things that maybe advisors should be watchful of when it comes to implementing these techniques?
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:39.839
Are you asking pitfalls in terms of the client advisor relationship or discomfort in offering or using this technique?
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:41.039
Oh yeah.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.200
I didn't think that you were gonna go there.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:45.759
Those are two actually great directions.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:53.680
Let's for the sake of time, let's go with the client relationship, that part.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:54.720
Let's go with that part.
00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:06.079
What are some things maybe in that relationship or that maybe a client, if they start saying, showing, displaying, like maybe what are some things to kind of be watchful of as they're implementing some of these techniques?
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:11.359
Yeah, I would start with when we're using motivational interviewing, we're acting as a guide.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:15.920
So that's different from say a directing approach, which is telling people what to do.
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:20.160
That would be maybe your stereotypical advisor or like an attorney or something.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:22.960
Somebody comes in and I tell you, here, you should do this.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:24.400
You need to do that, you should do this.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:32.799
There's also a follow-in approach, which I think motivational interviewing sometimes gets lumped into, which is I have no idea where this conversation is gonna go.
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.319
Let's just this is like a good friend is going through a tough time.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:41.200
You don't have any agenda, you're just listening to your friend and seeing where that goes.
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.240
In the middle is motivational interview and some guiding.
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.279
So think of yourself as a vacation guide, right?
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:49.279
Somebody comes to you and says, I'm gonna go to Europe.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:59.359
And the directing approach is to say, Well, you need to go to these pubs and you need to go to these soccer matches, and you need to go to these places, and you need to go here, and then you need to eat lunch here.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:03.359
But I don't I don't know if you even like pubs or soccer.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:04.480
So maybe you do.
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:05.599
I just got lucky.
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.359
The the following approach is to say, Cool, tell me what you're gonna do when you're there.
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:15.119
That that's I'm not doing really anything there except listening to what their idea already is.
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:17.680
Guide says, tell me some of the things that you like.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.400
Okay, good.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:25.680
This here's some things that you might try, or here's some things that I think you might get some benefit from, or something that you might like to do.
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:32.000
So if you think of yourself as a guide, when you're having this relationship, you can follow your client's lead.
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:40.000
This might be a few, not everybody's into jazz or improv music, but when improv musicians play, they follow each other's lead.
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:44.319
And so if somebody goes one particular direction, you follow where they're going.
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:49.599
And so it's kind of the same idea with our client relationships or the conversations that we're having with our clients.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:50.799
So we're paying attention.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:52.079
Do they seem agitated?
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:55.519
If they seem agitated or irritated, or why aren't you telling, why aren't you giving me advice?
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.039
You're an advisor.
00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:58.799
Give me advice, advise me.
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:02.079
Okay, then pick up on that and say, Is it okay?
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:06.000
It sounds like you're looking for something to something concrete to do.
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:06.559
Is that right?
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:07.200
Okay, good.
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:08.960
Well, have you heard about a trust?
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:10.000
Do you know what a trust is?
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:12.160
And then you can go down that path.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:16.240
So if you feel resistance, you can lean into it.
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:19.599
And so, you know, in motivational interviewing, they call it they call it dancing.
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:22.319
So wrestling is when we're fighting each other.
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:32.160
When you move, I'm trying to counter you move, I'm trying to prevent you from going a particular way, you're trying to prevent me from going a different direction when we're dancing, kind of like the jazz of the improv music.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:41.279
If somebody moves a particular way, I move with that, and that person's movement dictate what actions I can do next, and my actions dictate what the other person can do next.
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:54.559
So in in the textbooks, they call motivational interviewing kind of like a conversational dance where I'm picking up on what you're doing and I'm responding to what you're doing, and it kind of is you know an ebb and flow kind of like a dance.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:58.559
So I would say you don't know how the client's going to respond.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:27:59.839
So just pay attention.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.519
And if you pick up on resistance, you can use that.
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:08.000
And you can actually, if you want, if you're comfortable with it, this a lot of this takes practice.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:09.920
If you want, you can actually ask.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:13.200
It seems like, or I'm sensing a little bit of agitation here.
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:14.400
Is tell me more about that.
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:15.519
Is that true?
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.240
And they'll tell you, they'll tell you yes or no.
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.880
And sometimes we're wrong, we're not always right.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:22.880
We're not always good mind readers.
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:34.240
So sometimes checking in with what looks like resistance or what looks like frustration, maybe that's maybe this is the first time they've talked this much, and they're didn't know that they were gonna say this much, and they're confused.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:34.720
Why am I?
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:45.359
Ted Flus calls this speaker's remorse, where you get yourself into a into a good listener's uh trance and you start talking and talking and talking and talking, and even in your head, you're saying, Why am I talking?
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:46.480
Why am I saying this?
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:48.559
That I've been on the receiving end of that.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:50.079
It's it's uh it's it's weird.
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:51.599
I didn't know I was gonna say all this.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:59.279
So sometimes it could be that I didn't know I was gonna spill my beans to a or you spill the beans or spill my guts to a financial advisor.
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:05.759
But here I'm telling you about what happened in my childhood, and I'm telling you about all these weird things that happened, and it didn't even seem to be about money.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:09.759
So maybe it's not so much frustration, and maybe it's vulnerability.
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:13.599
And so sometimes it's not as clear.
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:16.960
So just checking in and seeing what's what's going on.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.680
Reading the cues, though, is the biggest piece of advice there.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:23.920
So if it looks like they're not connecting with what you're saying, you can you can pivot.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:24.400
It's okay.
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.880
You can come an audible if you're a football fan.
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:28.799
Yeah, I like I like that.
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:37.920
That being able to attune right to the situation, which includes the client and also yourself, I think is important.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:52.480
And that permission, like you just mentioned, that it's okay to pivot if there is some resistance, if you're being met with that, you don't have to rigidly stick to the path of this is I'm only doing exquisite, reflective, like listening here.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:54.240
And that's all I'm gonna do here.
00:29:54.400 --> 00:30:02.640
Like, even though I can tell you're wanting some advice, like, nope, I'm sticking to the script and I'm going to, you know, be the best listener in this situation.
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:03.759
It's okay to pivot.
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:12.079
I think having that permission and flexibility there as a guide and some discernment knowing when to and when not to is pretty critical.
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:23.200
So if we're thinking about, you know, this is kind of conversationally like client conversation, how we're interacting when it comes to using MI techniques.
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:32.960
Do you have any thoughts or suggestions around where MI fits into like the process standpoint?
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:40.319
I'm thinking about meeting structure, whether it's discovery meeting, you know, prospect, plan delivery, annual review.
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:48.559
Like, what are your thoughts around how maybe advisors can incorporate whether it's questions or MI techniques, maybe into that process?
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:58.960
One of the trickiest parts, I think, for implementing MI into financial advice or financial planning or life planning or whatever we're doing is we want ongoing relationships.
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:01.680
When MI was invented, it was short term.
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:02.880
There's one focus.
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:07.359
I'm addicted to alcohol, I want to kick this addiction to alcohol.
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:09.839
Once I've kicked the addiction to alcohol, we're done.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:12.720
Financial planning is there's not just one focus.
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:16.000
There's, I mean, there's investing and estate planning and insurance and cash flow.
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:17.200
Those are just the high levels.
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:19.200
Within investing, there's multiple focuses.
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:20.559
Within insurance, there's multiple.
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:31.920
So there's that EFEP of stages, there's multiple of those going on at the same time, depending on what the client wants done, what kind of strategy they want, or what kind of outcome they're looking for.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:34.480
And we want ongoing clients, most of us.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:39.759
So there's not, okay, you've done it, tell your friends, you know, we want to keep this, we want to keep this going.
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:47.920
So those are kind of the two tricky parts with implementing this strategy into financial planning, is the recognition that, all right, we're gonna meet the client where they are.
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:53.119
So if it's a discovery meeting, say, we're in the engaged stage of motivational interviewing.
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:58.720
And at the engaged stage of motivational interviewing, we're not really using these org skills strategically.
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:06.000
We're not looking for any change talk, we're not looking to do anything except make the client feel heard and understood and acknowledged and safe.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:14.000
Sometimes, if it's a discovery meeting, uh sometimes they're coming from another advisor, but sometimes this might be it might be the first advisor that they've talked to before.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.960
And boy, I don't want to show you all the things that I've been doing wrong.
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.920
And that's what advice is you telling me all the things I've been doing wrong.
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:21.920
And boy, that's that's kind of scary for me.
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:28.079
So the engaged stage is just to help the client feel from the prospect, I suppose, at this point, be understood.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:35.200
So you're reflecting everything that they say because you want to you want to make sure that they feel like like they got you.
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:40.160
And when you do this, they're looking at three, five advisors, those other four aren't aren't doing this.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:47.759
They're not they're getting told, here's all the great things that we do, and here's how we help people, and here's the strategies that we're gonna use, and the whatever.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:58.000
But you come in and you say, love to hear what gets somebody like you to be talking to somebody like me, and then that's it, just super open-ended, and and you reflect and let them feel heard and understood.
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:01.519
So just helping the prospect feel understood.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.480
That's how we're using that maybe in the early stages.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:14.240
Once they're a long-term client, so maybe the other end of this extreme is every time they the client wants something, they want to do something new, or they're thinking about doing something new.
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:17.759
You've entered now a new kind of EFEP, a new stage.
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.559
You've entered the new kind of it's a new version, new version of the EFEP stage.
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:24.000
So I'll use this example.
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:29.440
Man, I have some grandkids now, and I might want to move to Texas and sell my place in Maine.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:30.480
Maybe not, though.
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.720
So this has been a client for 10 years.
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:34.319
Now you, but this is a new thing.
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:35.759
I haven't thought about this before.
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:37.759
So we can still enter the engage stage.
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:44.559
It's gonna be shorter than that the prospect stage because we know who they are, but I still want to hear tell me what's going on.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:47.839
What what was the straw that made you think you might want to move?
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:51.200
Why are we talking about this now and not last year or yesterday?
00:33:51.680 --> 00:34:00.079
So we can start with that, but then we can quickly get into the focus, which is I want to remain neutral most of the time in terms of setting this focus.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:06.799
I shouldn't bring my values into this conversation and say, Well, of course, of course, you should move to be close to the grandkids.
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:07.440
Are you kidding me?
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:08.559
This is gonna be so great.
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:12.400
You should sell this place in Maine and move there, or probably vice versa.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:17.119
No, it'd be great to have you got this place right on the coast, and it'd be a great place for the grandkids to come.
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:18.960
Not our job at this point.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:21.840
We can still have those thoughts, we just don't client in.
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:25.760
We want to help them get to their own focus.
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:32.719
So now we're using the or's skills to tell me what it would look like if you moved down to Texas.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:45.760
Tell me what it would look like if you flew down to Texas once a quarter and flew your grandkids up every summer, or and then do which one of these feels closer, which one feels like you, if it feels more feasible.
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:55.039
Now we can maybe run some scenarios and see which like financially you're gonna be okay for both cases, or maybe the fact you know the money says one way is better than the other.
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:57.440
Well, now they've decided okay, that you're right.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:00.320
We're gonna move, we're gonna sell and move to Texas.
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:02.719
Okay, then we enter the engaged stage.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:04.960
So now it's you know back to the original.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:06.800
It's it's should we go on this journey together?
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:08.559
Is engaged.
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:10.480
Focus is where do we want to go?
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:12.559
So I want to move to Texas is the focus.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:13.760
Why would we want to go there?
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:21.360
So now this is kind of, I would say, what motivational interviewing seems to be most known for is evoking motivation.
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:28.320
So now you've told me you want to move to Texas, and I can start to use these ORS skills a little more strategically.
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:37.440
I can ask for, well, first I'm training my ear to listen for ChangeTalk, and we can sign a prism on ChangeTalk, but that might that might be a whole conversation.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.440
A whole other episode.
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:40.800
Yeah.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:46.159
But high level, there is they like they like their acronyms, DarnCats.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:47.840
I like acts better.
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:51.679
But D-A-R-N stands is like the motivational component for it.
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:56.480
So you're listening for D is desire, A is ability, R is reason, N is need.
00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:00.079
So your desire language is I want to move to Texas.
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:03.760
Ability is if I did decide to go there, I think it's good.
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:04.639
I could make that work.
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:06.559
Reasons is I have specific reasons.
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:08.960
My grandkids are there, and I don't want to miss them growing up.
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:12.639
And perceived need is it's important to do this.
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:14.239
And that builds up the motivation.
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:16.559
And then on the other side, it's kind of the action side of it.
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:19.840
So you got the motivation side and the action side, ACTS.
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.559
So activation language is I'm getting ready to do something.
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.199
Commitment language is I'm I'm going to do this.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.239
I promise I'll do that.
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.880
And TS is taking steps, they did something.
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:33.599
So you're training your ear to listen to these types of talk in favor of their focus.
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:35.440
In this case, moving to Texas.
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:39.280
And then now they've they're sufficiently motivated, and now you can say, How do we get there?
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:40.960
Is it okay if I share with some strategies?
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:42.159
I have some things in mind.
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:43.199
I'd love to share them with you.
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:43.920
Is that okay?
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:49.039
Uh, you know, if you sell the house, we've got to be careful about capital gains, or we gotta, you know, there's all these different strategies.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:50.400
This is where you get to shine.
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:55.360
This is where you really get to offer your advice, give you the strategies, give you the techniques.
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:59.760
But we've first established rapport, figured out what they wanted, built up the motivation.
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:05.199
Now they're primed for it, they're ready for it, take our advice, and then they move to Texas and live happily ever after.
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.039
And so they have a new thing that they want to do.
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:07.599
Right.
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:08.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:21.360
Well, and I love kind of what you mentioned there about from a time and place is that usually those engaging more deeply in use of MI skills is usually later on in the relationship.
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:28.159
It's likely maybe not best use for kind of first time out the gate, first meeting there.
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:42.000
As you said, some of that is focusing more just on the reflective listening and reflecting back to make sure that there is a level of emotional safety that is built up on the client side that's built between the two of you.
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:52.159
So, Derek, if listeners are wanting to learn more, if this is their like article experience, right?
00:37:52.239 --> 00:38:01.519
That maybe you had many, many moons ago, if this is that experience for them and they're like, gosh, this sounds like something that would be really helpful for me.
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:04.960
I could see myself utilizing some of this and I'd like to learn more.
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:08.079
Where would you suggest them starting?
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:11.280
Where can they start to learn more and dive into this model?
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:16.000
Well, if they're readers, I and don't mind big honking books.
00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:17.199
I like the textbooks.
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:18.800
So go straight to the source.
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:20.400
There's a fourth edition out now.
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:22.800
A lot of people that I know have the third edition.
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:24.480
If you still have that one, that's still a good book.
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:30.960
PsychWire is a website where you can learn asynchronously from the founders of motivational interviewing.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:32.800
Or there's a lot of YouTube videos.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:37.119
These are great ways to really dip your toe in and see, got this taste.
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:38.880
And I kind of want more of this.
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:44.320
Now, admittedly, this worked well for me because I was very interested in just the whole style.
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:53.679
If you go into the textbooks, though, you're going to see a lot of examples around parenting issues and substance abuse issues and things that don't really apply to financial planning.
00:38:53.840 --> 00:39:03.119
So I have a course together through Money Quotient, a bootcamp, where I kind of do a lot of this translation for you, and I take these examples and I translate it into financial examples.
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:11.679
So motivational interviewing boot camp to a course thing for those who want to, but even if you don't want to go that far, there's still tons of YouTube videos.
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:13.119
There's still tons of resources.
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:18.000
PsychWire, often there's discounts if you want to take it directly from the you know the founders of it.
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:22.159
But there's just just look for information on it.
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:25.360
Once you start looking for it, you'll see it out there everywhere.
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:27.039
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:32.400
So yeah, YouTube for sure, going directly kind of to the founders, the book.
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:39.440
But I love that you guys at Money Quotient are creating, have created, I should say, this boot camp there for.
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:57.280
And to your point, I think this is what's kind of tricky sometimes, is that here's this model that it's built out of the mental health field and the translation piece of okay, but how do we translate that into where it makes sense and feels applicable for financial advisors?
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:03.840
So kudos to you guys at Money Quotient for being able to take that framework and make the translation there.
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:12.719
So, Derek, as we wrap up, I say unfortunately, as we as we wrap up, I like to ask all of my guests a question.
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:35.199
And that question is that looking back at your earlier professional self, whatever age you consider that to be, but earlier professional self, what are maybe one to two pieces of advice that you would give to your younger self when it comes to starting in the profession, taking care of yourself?
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:37.199
What are one to two pieces of advice?
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:42.239
Well, I'd be honest, I I don't know that you know anybody more esoteric than me.
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:46.800
So when I first read that, my my gut says, I wouldn't change anything because I like where I'm at.
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:56.639
Anything that I would change in my past sets me on a completely different trajectory and I'm living in a different city with different people, and better and worse, or just value judgments and I don't know.
00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:58.639
So that's not the answer you're looking for.
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:07.119
The real answer that to actually answer your question is I would lean into and learn and dive into mindfulness a lot earlier.
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:26.000
So if motivational interviewing is a magic trick for helping clients change, mindfulness is the magic trick for changing yourself and changing how you interact with the world and cutting reactivity and choosing to be present and recognizing that the past and the future are only thoughts, and right now is all you have.
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:29.360
But you can still get to choose mindfully what to do going forward.
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:34.639
It's just a practice that I wish I would have done a lot sooner in my life.
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:35.280
Awesome.
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:39.760
Well, I will validate the esoteric part of you that says I will change and would have changed nothing.
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:44.719
And then there's this other part of me that says I would have incorporated mindfulness a lot sooner.
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:46.800
So I think both can exist.
00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:49.039
Both answers and responses can exist.
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:50.960
Typical therapist response, right?
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:52.239
I can't help myself.
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:58.239
Well, for all of you out there, thank you for joining us today on Planning and Beyond.
00:41:58.400 --> 00:42:03.360
Remember that exceptional financial planning goes beyond the numbers.
00:42:03.519 --> 00:42:09.119
It's about creating deeper understanding and meaningful connections with your clients.
00:42:09.280 --> 00:42:14.480
Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
00:42:14.800 --> 00:42:17.840
Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
00:42:18.000 --> 00:42:23.840
I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
00:42:24.079 --> 00:42:29.440
If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
00:42:29.679 --> 00:42:34.880
Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference.
00:42:35.119 --> 00:42:43.039
For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com.
00:42:43.440 --> 00:42:50.079
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00:42:50.320 --> 00:42:53.599
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00:42:53.840 --> 00:42:56.079
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00:42:56.320 --> 00:43:00.480
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00:43:00.719 --> 00:43:05.280
Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going.
00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:06.080
So there's ways to offer the solutions, offer the advice in an MI consistent way.
00:00:06.240 --> 00:00:09.599
All of it is keeping client autonomy at the forefront.
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:12.800
So autonomy is a basic human need.
00:00:12.880 --> 00:00:14.960
It shows up in many different models of well-being.
00:00:15.119 --> 00:00:19.440
And when we tell people what to do, they don't have autonomy.
00:00:19.600 --> 00:00:31.280
So if you go back to the evolutionary psychology or evolutionary biology thing, if you tell me what to do when I do it, subconsciously or not, I've just taken a lower rank in the social order because you're you told me what to do.
00:00:31.359 --> 00:00:31.760
You're my boss.
00:00:31.839 --> 00:00:32.640
You're the superior.
00:00:32.880 --> 00:00:39.359
Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the podcast where financial advising meets the art of meaningful conversations.
00:00:39.679 --> 00:00:41.439
I'm your host, Ashley Kwame.
00:00:41.679 --> 00:00:51.200
As a certified financial behavior specialist and a passionate advocate for personal growth, I'm here to help you elevate your practice and deepen your connections with clients.
00:00:51.359 --> 00:00:57.359
In each episode, we dive into the intersection of psychology, therapy, and financial advising.
00:00:57.520 --> 00:01:07.680
You'll discover practical strategies, insightful stories, and expert interviews that will empower you to not only excel in your profession, but also thrive in your personal life.
00:01:07.920 --> 00:01:12.079
Together, we'll explore the human side of financial planning.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:17.920
From understanding client emotions to mastering the nuances of effective communication.
00:01:18.159 --> 00:01:25.200
We'll also focus on your own growth because the best advisors are those who are continually evolving.
00:01:25.439 --> 00:01:28.719
Get ready to transform your practice and yourself.
00:01:28.879 --> 00:01:31.519
This is Planning and Beyond.
00:01:33.120 --> 00:01:37.760
Welcome to Planning and Beyond, the show where financial planning meets human understanding.
00:01:37.920 --> 00:01:39.840
I'm your host, Ashley Kwamey.
00:01:40.000 --> 00:01:51.519
Today we're diving into a powerful framework that really can truly transform how you approach client conversations.
00:01:52.319 --> 00:01:54.959
That is motivational interviewing.
00:01:55.120 --> 00:02:05.599
It's a framework that for many mental health practitioners, we have the outside privilege of learning about, typically in our graduate programs.
00:02:05.760 --> 00:02:20.560
And what has been amazing for at least me to see moving into the financial space is motivational interviewing starting to take some roots and take off for financial planners.
00:02:20.719 --> 00:02:28.000
I'm thrilled to be joined by my friend, I'll say friend and colleague, Derek Hagen.
00:02:28.240 --> 00:02:40.960
He is the director of education and communication at Money Quotient and a financial behavior specialist and about five other, I think, designations, letters there behind his name.
00:02:41.199 --> 00:02:56.719
And Derek is going to talk with us today and help us understand how this evidence-based approach can really enhance your practice and deepen those client connections.
00:02:56.960 --> 00:02:58.639
Derek, welcome to the show.
00:02:59.039 --> 00:02:59.680
Thanks for having me.
00:02:59.759 --> 00:03:03.120
It's so fun to be talking about one of my favorite topics with one of my favorite people.
00:03:03.360 --> 00:03:03.680
Thank you.
00:03:03.759 --> 00:03:05.039
I appreciate that very much.
00:03:05.199 --> 00:03:09.199
I couldn't imagine having this conversation with anyone else.
00:03:09.360 --> 00:03:11.680
It was a very obvious choice for me.
00:03:11.840 --> 00:03:15.520
So I'm glad that you're here and willing to share all of your wisdom today.
00:03:15.840 --> 00:03:29.199
Before we jump into exploring kind of what motivational interviewing is, I'd love if you wouldn't mind maybe just sharing a little bit about your journey into this model specifically.
00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:34.800
And maybe also like what drew you, what was it about motivational interviewing that drew you to this approach?
00:03:35.039 --> 00:03:35.199
Yeah.
00:03:35.280 --> 00:03:44.319
So my journey, I come from, I talk often in terms of exterior finance and interior finance, so nuts and bolts, mechanics of money, and relationship with money.
00:03:44.479 --> 00:03:50.960
So I come from the heavy math and spreadsheets, CFA, CFP style approach to financial planning.
00:03:51.199 --> 00:04:03.599
And somewhere in the middle 2010s, 14, 15, something like that, I started realizing that listening is a skill that let me say a lot of advisors could stand to benefit from learning more of.
00:04:03.759 --> 00:04:12.159
So I set out to try to learn more about listening and naive at this point that I thought that there's two groups there's bad listeners and there's good listeners, and that's that's it.
00:04:12.319 --> 00:04:13.520
That's all there is to it.
00:04:13.840 --> 00:04:28.319
So as I researched it, I learned that there's a whole maze of words that I've never heard of active listening and exquisite listening and reflective listening and empathetic listening and totally confused because I have no, I thought it breaks my belief that there's two camps.
00:04:28.399 --> 00:04:30.480
There's there's a bunch of camps here, apparently.
00:04:30.639 --> 00:04:39.920
So I happened to come across an article in Journal of Financial Planning called Exquisite Listening that person who would become my mentor, Ted Kwanz, wrote, Ted and Brad wrote.
00:04:40.000 --> 00:04:45.680
But this is before there's no links, there's no email addresses, so I had to spend a bunch of time figuring out what they are talking about.
00:04:45.839 --> 00:04:50.560
They mentioned some kind of a workshop in this article, and I had to find out what these workshops were.
00:04:50.639 --> 00:05:01.759
So eventually I find my way to Franklin, Tennessee, outside of Nashville, but actually outside of Franklin, somewhere just in the country in Tennessee, to this weekend-long workshop on how to listen, which is what I thought it was going to be.
00:05:01.839 --> 00:05:12.639
What it turned out to be it was the whole weekend about evolutionary psychology, evolutionary biology, psychology, philosophy, neuroscience, basically everything that our brains do when we're existing.
00:05:12.720 --> 00:05:13.759
And listening was part of that.
00:05:13.839 --> 00:05:17.759
That's Ted Kwantz was one of his claims to fame, is that he calls it exquisite listening.
00:05:17.839 --> 00:05:21.120
So I followed him from there to Creighton and did their graduate certificate.
00:05:21.360 --> 00:05:30.720
In his class, Financial Communication, he had us read both nonviolent communication and motivational interview as kind of a base for his style of listening.
00:05:30.879 --> 00:05:36.720
But through that process, I had to read the textbook, or I got to read the textbook, motivational interview, it's third edition.
00:05:36.879 --> 00:05:39.680
And I it was unlike anything I've ever read before.
00:05:39.759 --> 00:05:44.000
It felt like felt like reading the book that that magicians use.
00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:47.360
Like, whoa, this is how this is how this happens, this is what's going on.
00:05:47.519 --> 00:05:48.399
It just blew my mind.
00:05:48.480 --> 00:05:52.319
So I've read that book every year, probably for several years now.
00:05:52.560 --> 00:05:54.560
Oh my gosh, that's a clunker too.
00:05:54.720 --> 00:05:55.279
My goodness.
00:05:55.600 --> 00:05:57.040
That's a big, it's a big clunker.
00:05:57.120 --> 00:05:59.040
There's a fourth edition now, which is a little shorter.
00:05:59.199 --> 00:06:02.879
So I have moved on to the fourth edition, although I do still like the third edition better.
00:06:03.040 --> 00:06:12.800
But it's every time you go, every time I go through it, it's just a refresher, a reminder of it's this weird tension of this is groundbreaking stuff, but also this is super obvious stuff.
00:06:13.360 --> 00:06:14.800
Both of those exist at the same time.
00:06:14.879 --> 00:06:18.560
It's both obvious and groundbreaking that this works.
00:06:18.720 --> 00:06:26.079
And not that it works, just how simple can be at a high level how this communication style works to help people.
00:06:26.399 --> 00:06:27.199
Yeah, yeah.
00:06:27.360 --> 00:06:48.800
I think that that might be actually kind of maybe the next place to kind of go, because I would imagine that while you and I know motivational interviewing, and while it is starting to move its way into the financial planning space, there's probably a lot of people that this is the first time they're hearing about motivational interviewing.
00:06:48.959 --> 00:06:53.759
And so maybe let's just start there, kind of where you left off, like that high-level place.
00:06:53.920 --> 00:06:55.439
What is motivational interviewing?
00:06:55.519 --> 00:06:56.879
Let's maybe kind of break that down a bit.
00:06:57.120 --> 00:06:58.800
Yeah, I'll go to the highest level first.
00:06:58.879 --> 00:07:02.480
It's a conversation style, it's a way to have a conversation.
00:07:02.639 --> 00:07:06.399
And more specifically, it's a way to have a conversation about change.
00:07:06.639 --> 00:07:10.319
And there's this term that I learned through this process called ambivalence.
00:07:10.480 --> 00:07:13.120
Ambivalence is multiple motivations.
00:07:13.279 --> 00:07:15.360
It's I'm motivated to lose weight.
00:07:15.519 --> 00:07:22.959
I am also motivated to be healthy, I'm motivated to eat a bunch of pasta, I'm also motivated to lay on the couch and sleep in.
00:07:23.120 --> 00:07:28.079
All of those things are happening at the same time, even though many of those are incompatible within one another.
00:07:28.160 --> 00:07:30.240
So that's a high level of what ambivalence is.
00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:34.639
I both want A and I want B, but A and B might not be compatible.
00:07:34.800 --> 00:07:45.759
So what that means in the framework of motivational interview, when it kind of got its start in addiction treatment, I don't want to be addicted to the substance, but I also am addict, I want to have another hit.
00:07:46.000 --> 00:07:47.839
So I want both of these things at the same time.
00:07:48.000 --> 00:07:53.600
So all of those motivations, it's not just two, all of those motivations exist inside me already.
00:07:53.759 --> 00:07:57.519
I don't need somebody else to tell me you're gonna lose weight if you stop eating pasta.
00:07:57.600 --> 00:07:58.560
I already know that.
00:07:58.639 --> 00:08:00.399
I'm gonna be healthier if I go to the gym.
00:08:00.560 --> 00:08:01.680
I already know that.
00:08:01.920 --> 00:08:03.040
That's a myth, Derek.
00:08:03.120 --> 00:08:06.319
I feel like I feel like you can lose weight and eat pasta.
00:08:06.480 --> 00:08:09.199
Uh I'm gonna subscribe to that school of thought for now.
00:08:11.279 --> 00:08:12.079
I found one.
00:08:12.160 --> 00:08:14.959
I found my confirmation bias that'll help me justify.
00:08:15.279 --> 00:08:16.399
I'm happy to support you in that.
00:08:16.639 --> 00:08:17.040
So that's it.
00:08:17.120 --> 00:08:18.399
It's so you got this ambivalence.
00:08:18.480 --> 00:08:31.680
So motivational interviewing is a way to have this conversation that helps clients work through this ambivalence and see or uncover or find or discover or rediscover the motivation that they already have to make this positive change that they want in their life.
00:08:31.839 --> 00:08:33.600
It's a it's a way of talking to people.
00:08:33.679 --> 00:08:39.279
I'm not adding motivation, I'm just helping to draw out motivation to make this positive change for them.
00:08:39.440 --> 00:08:40.879
That's the really high level.
00:08:40.960 --> 00:08:43.600
It's interviewing people in a way that draws out their motivation.
00:08:43.919 --> 00:08:47.519
The kind of medium high is especially some creative license here.
00:08:47.759 --> 00:08:49.039
You're not going to see this in a textbook.
00:08:49.120 --> 00:08:51.679
I call it the four S's of motivational interviewing.
00:08:51.759 --> 00:08:57.279
So there's a spirit that goes through this, which is this has to be done in service of the client.
00:08:57.360 --> 00:09:03.200
It's not something that I'm doing to make somebody do what I want them to do or to get them to implement my advice.
00:09:03.360 --> 00:09:04.960
There's a lot of overlap here.
00:09:05.200 --> 00:09:11.200
I want you to implement my advice, is different from saying, I want you to make the change that you want to make.
00:09:11.440 --> 00:09:19.279
It might be the same thing, but if I view the lens of I want you to make the change that you want to make, that's explicitly the spirit of motivational review.
00:09:19.440 --> 00:09:20.240
So that's the first S.
00:09:20.320 --> 00:09:23.360
The second S is the stages, there's different stages that people go through.
00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:25.679
The FEP, they like their acronyms, speak up.
00:09:26.000 --> 00:09:30.000
There's engaging, which is to say, should we go on this journey together, me and the client?
00:09:30.159 --> 00:09:32.960
And then there's focusing, which is to say, where are we going to go?
00:09:33.120 --> 00:09:34.320
Where do you want to go?
00:09:34.480 --> 00:09:35.360
Where can I help you get?
00:09:35.600 --> 00:09:38.000
And then evoking is to say, why would we go there?
00:09:38.159 --> 00:09:39.360
That's where we find the motivation.
00:09:39.440 --> 00:09:40.879
And then planning is how do we get there?
00:09:41.039 --> 00:09:42.159
So those are the stages.
00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:43.279
And then there's the skills.
00:09:43.440 --> 00:09:49.600
Anybody with even a little bit of familiarity with motivational interviewing probably has heard of the ORs, O A R S.
00:09:49.840 --> 00:09:52.080
These are the skills of motivational interviewing.
00:09:52.159 --> 00:09:58.480
And it's really reflective listening skills, but it stands for open-ended questions, affirmations, reflections, and summaries.
00:09:58.720 --> 00:10:04.639
I add a little bit of the Ted Klantz stuff, which is to say questions aren't as effective as statements.
00:10:04.799 --> 00:10:09.360
So open-ended prompts will say try to get away from using question marks.
00:10:09.519 --> 00:10:17.279
But we're using these skills, maybe a little differently depending on what stage we're in, but we're we're really focusing on these reflective listening skills.
00:10:17.360 --> 00:10:20.559
And then the fourth S is really where I really take the creative license.
00:10:20.720 --> 00:10:25.600
That's the speech of motivational interviewing, which is change talk, is a term that people have probably heard.
00:10:25.759 --> 00:10:29.840
So change talk is dialogue, it's communication in favor of change.
00:10:30.000 --> 00:10:34.240
And we go back to the stages, the focus is defines what changes.
00:10:34.480 --> 00:10:35.200
Sometimes it's easy.
00:10:35.279 --> 00:10:38.960
An addiction treatment is to get off, is to break the addiction.
00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:44.080
Sometimes it's easy, like I need to get a will because I don't have a will.
00:10:44.240 --> 00:10:45.440
Sometimes it's not so easy.
00:10:45.519 --> 00:10:54.159
Like, should I relocate to be closer to my grandkids, sell my house and move, or should I just increase my travel budget and go to them more and bring them to me more?
00:10:54.399 --> 00:11:00.480
I can't define what that is, but once the client defines that they want to relocate, that becomes change talk.
00:11:00.559 --> 00:11:03.120
Any dialogue in favor of doing that becomes changed talk.
00:11:03.200 --> 00:11:09.360
Any dialogue or speech that goes against that is set called sustained talk, rest of tones call it status quo talk.
00:11:09.519 --> 00:11:19.840
So medium high level, we're using these four S's, reasoning skills of motivational interviewing different at different stages, differently at the different stages, draw out a certain kind of speech, keeping the spirit in mind.
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:26.240
So that one's probably a little more in the weeds, but it it helps to see that there's a process like to this.
00:11:26.639 --> 00:11:31.519
I appreciated that kind of breakdown around like the four S's, right?
00:11:31.759 --> 00:11:35.919
So when we're thinking about motivational interviewing, there is a spirit to it.
00:11:36.080 --> 00:11:42.559
And some of that I spirit and kind of intention or way of thinking around it.
00:11:42.720 --> 00:11:44.000
And I love what you said.
00:11:44.240 --> 00:11:57.679
I'm just kind of in that place of spirit, and where I hear a lot of advisors, they'll say things like, I just need to get my clients motivated to do this, or if I could just motivate them to do X, Y, and Z.
00:11:58.240 --> 00:12:07.759
And from a motivational interviewing from that spirit place, it's changing that, reframing that thinking to it's not about you getting them to feel motivated.
00:12:07.840 --> 00:12:09.440
It's about drawing that out.
00:12:09.759 --> 00:12:18.159
And there's a wonderful process here with MI going through, as you said, then the stages and then the skills and the speech there.
00:12:18.399 --> 00:12:35.279
So I think that's a wonderful framework that I hope everyone is listening here, jotting down some notes or maybe earmarking some timestamps, because I think that going through kind of each of those four S's, as you said, will give you all of the creative license for that.
00:12:35.679 --> 00:12:46.639
Walking kind of through those, I think can be a really great maybe starting place for rethinking how you are engaging and working with clients, maybe particularly those who are stuck.
00:12:46.960 --> 00:12:54.960
If we talk about maybe kind of some other kind of ways where advisors can start to implement this.
00:12:55.120 --> 00:13:03.759
And I guess I'm laughing because I'm just imagining maybe Clayton specifically here as kind of like that advisor that's hearing this for the first time.
00:13:03.919 --> 00:13:04.879
No offense, babe.
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:11.120
Like hearing this, like maybe for the first time and is like, oh my goodness, like this is a little overwhelming.
00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:16.639
I'm kind of like tracking what you guys are saying here, but this is a little overwhelming in terms of implementation.
00:13:16.799 --> 00:13:21.919
Do I have to read this big book once a year for like the next five years in order to be an expert in it?
00:13:22.159 --> 00:13:32.320
Let's talk a little bit about what are some maybe key techniques in motivational interviewing that advisors can start using immediately.
00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:33.679
Where can they start, Derek?
00:13:33.919 --> 00:13:40.720
Yeah, first let me talk about this expertise because William Miller, one of the founders of it, has said, I'm still learning this.
00:13:40.799 --> 00:13:41.679
And he invented it.
00:13:41.840 --> 00:13:49.600
So it's it's hard to it's hard to even say that this is something that you can perfect when the founder is still saying, I'm still learning this stuff.
00:13:49.759 --> 00:13:53.600
So give yourself permission to say, I can learn and I can keep learning.
00:13:54.000 --> 00:13:55.840
You don't have to be an expert in this.
00:13:56.000 --> 00:14:04.240
Now, I would say the low-hanging fruit is they talk about something called the writing reflex, or at least they used to call it the writing reflex.
00:14:04.320 --> 00:14:06.240
In the fourth edition, they call it the fixing reflex.
00:14:06.480 --> 00:14:08.799
I still like the alliteration of writing reflex.
00:14:08.960 --> 00:14:16.720
Fixing reflex is it doesn't roll off the tongue as easy, but they their point is that it's the instinct we have to jump in and fix something.
00:14:16.879 --> 00:14:23.200
This is true for humans, it's certainly true for people in helping professions like financial planners and financial advisors.
00:14:23.440 --> 00:14:24.799
It happens with your friends too.
00:14:24.879 --> 00:14:33.679
You know, somebody is doing something, and you know, because this is what you do all the time, because it's your job or it's your hobby, or you've done this for your whole life, you say that you're not doing that right.
00:14:33.759 --> 00:14:35.360
There's a thing you need to be doing better.
00:14:35.519 --> 00:14:36.399
And so you say that.
00:14:36.559 --> 00:14:40.480
You say, Hey, you should do this, or you might want to do that, or I do it this way.
00:14:40.639 --> 00:14:44.720
That reflex kills or has a tendency to kill conversation.
00:14:44.799 --> 00:14:48.799
Because most of the time, people already know that that's not enough.
00:14:48.960 --> 00:14:50.320
Knowledge isn't enough.
00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:53.679
So the low-hanging fruit is to resist the writing reflex.
00:14:54.000 --> 00:14:56.960
If you're gonna feel it, let it go and see what happens.
00:14:57.039 --> 00:15:17.200
You can still, there's a time later to offer advice or to offer solutions, but when your friend or your client or whoever you're talking to is trying to articulate a point, jumping in with the you're feeling this reflex and acting on this reflex to fix them is less likely to get them to make that positive change anyway that they want to make.
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:20.720
In fact, when people are ambivalent, that is, let's just use two examples.
00:15:20.799 --> 00:15:21.759
I want two things.
00:15:21.919 --> 00:15:29.679
And if you, the advisor, argue one side of my ambivalence, Derek, you you want to lose weight and you want to keep eating pasta.
00:15:29.759 --> 00:15:34.000
And no matter which side you argue, say, Derek, pasta, don't you get it?
00:15:34.080 --> 00:15:38.480
That's just a bunch of cards, and you're gonna be tired all the time, and you're just gonna make you gain all this weight.
00:15:38.559 --> 00:15:42.159
You know, it puts me out of balance because I'm keeping this delicate balance when I'm ambivalent.
00:15:42.240 --> 00:15:44.320
And so you argue one side, it tips the scales.
00:15:44.559 --> 00:15:48.399
So I often will get myself back to equilibrium.
00:15:48.559 --> 00:15:54.000
And you hear, yeah, but if you hear yeah, but that's an indication that they're arguing the other side.
00:15:54.159 --> 00:15:56.559
Well, yeah, but this is my favorite meal.
00:15:56.720 --> 00:16:01.120
This is most of my dishes that I eat, or this is so delicious, pairs well with great wines and so on.
00:16:01.200 --> 00:16:02.879
Or maybe you argue, argue the other side.
00:16:02.960 --> 00:16:04.399
You, Derek, you only live once.
00:16:04.559 --> 00:16:05.679
Drink the wine, who cares?
00:16:05.759 --> 00:16:08.720
Eat the pasta, it doesn't matter, live it up, you're not gonna be here long.
00:16:08.799 --> 00:16:15.440
And I'll say, Yeah, but when I weigh 20 pounds more, it's harder on my knees and it's kind of an active guy, you're not even listening to me.
00:16:15.600 --> 00:16:21.120
So, no matter which side you argue to an ambivalent person, they're gonna argue the other side to keep that balance.
00:16:21.279 --> 00:16:25.200
And then people tend to believe what they hear themselves saying.
00:16:25.360 --> 00:16:36.000
So when we let this writing reflex dictate what we say, we make it easier for them to stay the same, or we make it easier for them to not implement what they want to do.
00:16:36.240 --> 00:16:42.480
So I would say that the the low-hanging fruit is to just one resist the writing reflex.
00:16:42.639 --> 00:16:49.360
And then two, it's I don't know if this is in the books, but I sometimes call motivational interviewing strategic reflective listening.
00:16:49.519 --> 00:16:54.000
So it's reflective listening done in a strategic way, depending on the stage that you're at.
00:16:54.240 --> 00:16:57.840
And I often draw, and people who know me know I draw these stupid little drawings.
00:16:58.159 --> 00:17:00.320
One of the drawings I draw is a little flow chart.
00:17:00.399 --> 00:17:02.559
In the lower left, it's this is what your client means.
00:17:02.879 --> 00:17:05.519
I've got thoughts, unarticulated thoughts.
00:17:05.759 --> 00:17:11.680
We've got, I've seen as high as 70,000 but 40,000, 50,000 thoughts a day, unarticulated.
00:17:11.839 --> 00:17:14.079
So we have all these thoughts, most rendering ahead.
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:17.680
And then you ask a question, or a client tries to articulate something.
00:17:17.759 --> 00:17:22.799
So they say something, but what they say might not be what they meant, especially if this is the first time trying to articulate something.
00:17:22.880 --> 00:17:25.359
And then what they say, you have to hear.
00:17:25.599 --> 00:17:32.720
And this is the line that I would say most people, not just advisors, but most people think listening is you said the words, I heard the words.
00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:39.759
But even if I heard all the words you said, and even if you said exactly what you meant, now I have to make an interpretation of why what I think you meant.
00:17:39.920 --> 00:17:49.519
So there's this long chain here of clients say something that they might not mean, and you hear something that they might not have said, and then you decode this, which might not be the proper decoding of what they said.
00:17:49.680 --> 00:17:55.839
So reflective listening is to close the loop and to say it sounds like, and then say what they were saying in your own words.
00:17:56.240 --> 00:17:58.559
Basically, here's what I here's what I thought you meant.
00:17:58.640 --> 00:17:59.119
Is that right?
00:17:59.279 --> 00:18:05.519
And they'll say yes, and you look like you're a great listener, or they'll say no and correct you, and they're happy to do so.
00:18:05.680 --> 00:18:06.720
So you close the loop.
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:09.119
That's uh strategic reflecting piece.
00:18:09.519 --> 00:18:22.960
So another piece of lower hanging fruit is to just start to learn reflective listening, start to offer what we call reflections, just to check in for understanding, put on a curiosity hat and see why are you saying this?
00:18:23.119 --> 00:18:24.400
Here's what I think you mean.
00:18:24.559 --> 00:18:25.440
Is that close?
00:18:25.599 --> 00:18:26.240
What's different?
00:18:26.319 --> 00:18:28.640
What would you change about what I what I just said?
00:18:28.880 --> 00:18:35.519
So between those two pieces, learning or leaning into and learning about reflective listening and avoiding the writing reflex.
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:38.400
I think those are the two two things that'll get you a lot of the way there.
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:52.480
I think that those are great starting points is because it's likely there are many, many just humans just in general, but advisors that I hear at least that they'll acknowledge, like, yes, I struggle with that writing reflex.
00:18:54.880 --> 00:18:57.279
Hey friends, we'll be right back with the episode.
00:18:57.440 --> 00:19:07.039
But before we do, I wanted to take a quick second to let you know about what we do at Beyond the Plan and how we support financial advisors who are committed to growth.
00:19:07.359 --> 00:19:14.880
At Beyond the Plan, we specialize in integrating financial and client psychology to enhance your advisory practice.
00:19:15.119 --> 00:19:26.319
From client meeting facilitation, advisor training and coaching, even client onboarding strategies, we are your implementation partner and dedicated in-house expert.
00:19:26.559 --> 00:19:35.599
Visit our website at beyondthefp.com to learn more about our services and how we can collaborate to elevate your practice.
00:19:35.839 --> 00:19:43.200
Together, let's go beyond the plan to deliver meaningful client experiences that foster long-lasting relationships.
00:19:43.440 --> 00:19:45.440
Now, back to the episode.
00:19:51.200 --> 00:20:10.799
So if they're gonna make some moves into trying to resist that impulse, resist that reflex, if a client is talking and they're bringing up a problem, like this is what I'm struggling with, and they're going on and on, would resisting that writing reflex, from your opinion, would it be then more that reflective listening?
00:20:10.960 --> 00:20:16.640
Or what if they're not going, if they're gonna resist walking in and giving solutions, like what then should they do?
00:20:16.799 --> 00:20:20.720
How should they respond in those moments if they're not giving advice and solutions?
00:20:20.960 --> 00:20:21.680
Tell me more.
00:20:21.839 --> 00:20:24.240
That was actually the the advice.
00:20:24.400 --> 00:20:32.000
So you can lean into so the the skills of look of MI are open-ended questions or open-ended prompts, affirmations, reflections, and summaries.
00:20:32.240 --> 00:20:34.400
Reflections are just one of those uh skills.
00:20:34.559 --> 00:20:37.519
So closing the loop, checking in for understanding.
00:20:37.680 --> 00:20:41.200
And if you got really into the weeds, there's different ways that you can reflect.
00:20:41.279 --> 00:20:46.880
You can reflect different things to move the conversation forward, but at this high level, reflecting for understanding.
00:20:46.960 --> 00:20:51.200
But asking open-ended prompts, open-ended questions, tell me more about that.
00:20:51.359 --> 00:21:07.279
So I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear more about your thoughts on this and help them talk, help them articulate what's going on in their mind until they feel like they've talked about everything that they need to talk about or they've offered you enough information that you can offer advice later.
00:21:07.440 --> 00:21:13.920
And in the MI consistent way, we're maybe a little in the weeds here, but you offer advice with permission in motivational interviewing.
00:21:14.160 --> 00:21:17.759
So illicit provide illicit, and that that's used in a couple of different ways.
00:21:18.079 --> 00:21:19.599
One is eliciting permission.
00:21:19.759 --> 00:21:21.119
So I've got some ideas.
00:21:21.200 --> 00:21:23.119
Is it okay if I tell you what's worked for other people?
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:25.680
And then they'll say yes, usually.
00:21:25.920 --> 00:21:27.519
If they say no, you honor the no.
00:21:27.759 --> 00:21:31.279
This again, this isn't a reverse psychology trick or something like that.
00:21:31.680 --> 00:21:40.559
Most people want to hear what you have to say, but by asking permission, you've opened the door, they've opened the door to be willing to receive that information.
00:21:40.720 --> 00:21:44.400
And sometimes, even if they ask you, hey, what do you think I should do?
00:21:44.640 --> 00:21:47.599
Permission there is implicit in the fact that they asked you for it.
00:21:47.680 --> 00:21:54.319
But even then, you can still do use the illicit provide illicit instead of saying you should do this or here's what I would do.
00:21:54.480 --> 00:21:57.200
You can say, Have you heard about Roth IRAs?
00:21:57.440 --> 00:21:58.720
What do you know about Roth IRAs?
00:21:58.960 --> 00:21:59.920
What do you know about Roth IRAs?
00:22:00.079 --> 00:22:00.559
Conversions.
00:22:00.640 --> 00:22:02.160
What do you know about life insurance?
00:22:02.319 --> 00:22:03.839
And then they'll tell you what they know.
00:22:03.920 --> 00:22:09.680
And then you can, is it okay if I fill in the gaps or tell you a little bit more about why I think this is a good strategy for you?
00:22:09.839 --> 00:22:15.039
So there's ways to offer the solutions, offer the advice in an MI consistent way.
00:22:15.200 --> 00:22:18.559
All of it is keeping client autonomy at the forefront.
00:22:18.720 --> 00:22:21.759
So autonomy is a basic human need.
00:22:21.839 --> 00:22:24.000
It shows up in many different models of well-being.
00:22:24.079 --> 00:22:28.400
And when we tell people what to do, they don't have autonomy.
00:22:28.559 --> 00:22:41.680
So if you go back to the evolutionary psychology or evolutionary biology thing, if you tell me what to do and I do it, subconsciously or not, I've just taken a lower rank in the social order because you're you told me what to do, you're my boss, you're the superior now.
00:22:41.920 --> 00:22:44.000
Wiring is still kind of with us.
00:22:44.160 --> 00:22:48.400
Most of us wouldn't be able to articulate what's happening there, but it's I use this joke.
00:22:48.559 --> 00:22:51.039
And you see it in every comedy almost.
00:22:51.359 --> 00:22:54.240
The joke is I was gonna go, you know, shovel the driveway.
00:22:54.319 --> 00:22:56.720
And then my wife said, Hey Derek, go shovel the driveway.
00:22:56.880 --> 00:22:58.400
And I said, Well, no, I don't want to do it.
00:22:58.880 --> 00:23:02.400
Or I'm gonna do it, but I'm gonna do it because I want to do it, not because he told me to do it.
00:23:02.480 --> 00:23:02.640
Yeah.
00:23:02.799 --> 00:23:07.519
So it's a joke, but it's a joke because that's fundamentally how we are.
00:23:07.680 --> 00:23:12.400
So offering advice and motivational interviewing is to keep client autonomy in play.
00:23:12.559 --> 00:23:16.640
So we're not offering the writing reflex, we're avoiding the rating reflex.
00:23:16.880 --> 00:23:25.839
We're learning more about what they've already tried, we're learning more about what's worked for them, and then when it's time, we offer advice with permission and we elicit what they already know.
00:23:26.000 --> 00:23:29.519
We keep them in in the loop, we keep them as part of the process.
00:23:29.759 --> 00:23:36.319
I like how you framed that in terms of how to offer it, but it is also okay to give advice too.
00:23:36.480 --> 00:23:45.920
I think that's where maybe sometimes I hear that advisors get stuck is like, okay, I'm supposed to do all this listening, but like part of my job is actually to also give advice.
00:23:46.240 --> 00:23:48.240
And yes, that is true.
00:23:48.400 --> 00:24:00.400
That is a big part of what you are being paid for, drawn into, and knowing how to give that advice, though, I think in such a way that invites really the client in to want to receive it.
00:24:00.559 --> 00:24:02.160
I think you said it beautifully.
00:24:02.240 --> 00:24:04.480
You put it out there wonderfully.
00:24:04.720 --> 00:24:23.680
I'm curious, though, if you know, advisors start implementing some of these lower hanging fruit strategies, or if they start getting into a little bit more of the framework, though, from what you've seen from your perspective, are there any maybe pitfalls, red flags?
00:24:23.759 --> 00:24:31.839
Like what are some things that maybe advisors should be watchful of when it comes to implementing these techniques?
00:24:32.160 --> 00:24:39.839
Are you asking pitfalls in terms of the client advisor relationship or discomfort in offering or using this technique?
00:24:40.480 --> 00:24:41.039
Oh yeah.
00:24:41.200 --> 00:24:43.200
I didn't think that you were gonna go there.
00:24:43.359 --> 00:24:45.759
Those are two actually great directions.
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:53.680
Let's for the sake of time, let's go with the client relationship, that part.
00:24:53.839 --> 00:24:54.720
Let's go with that part.
00:24:54.880 --> 00:25:06.079
What are some things maybe in that relationship or that maybe a client, if they start saying, showing, displaying, like maybe what are some things to kind of be watchful of as they're implementing some of these techniques?
00:25:06.400 --> 00:25:11.359
Yeah, I would start with when we're using motivational interviewing, we're acting as a guide.
00:25:11.519 --> 00:25:15.920
So that's different from say a directing approach, which is telling people what to do.
00:25:16.079 --> 00:25:20.160
That would be maybe your stereotypical advisor or like an attorney or something.
00:25:20.319 --> 00:25:22.960
Somebody comes in and I tell you, here, you should do this.
00:25:23.039 --> 00:25:24.400
You need to do that, you should do this.
00:25:24.559 --> 00:25:32.799
There's also a follow-in approach, which I think motivational interviewing sometimes gets lumped into, which is I have no idea where this conversation is gonna go.
00:25:32.960 --> 00:25:36.319
Let's just this is like a good friend is going through a tough time.
00:25:36.400 --> 00:25:41.200
You don't have any agenda, you're just listening to your friend and seeing where that goes.
00:25:41.359 --> 00:25:44.240
In the middle is motivational interview and some guiding.
00:25:44.319 --> 00:25:47.279
So think of yourself as a vacation guide, right?
00:25:47.440 --> 00:25:49.279
Somebody comes to you and says, I'm gonna go to Europe.
00:25:49.359 --> 00:25:59.359
And the directing approach is to say, Well, you need to go to these pubs and you need to go to these soccer matches, and you need to go to these places, and you need to go here, and then you need to eat lunch here.
00:25:59.519 --> 00:26:03.359
But I don't I don't know if you even like pubs or soccer.
00:26:03.519 --> 00:26:04.480
So maybe you do.
00:26:04.720 --> 00:26:05.599
I just got lucky.
00:26:05.759 --> 00:26:09.359
The the following approach is to say, Cool, tell me what you're gonna do when you're there.
00:26:09.519 --> 00:26:15.119
That that's I'm not doing really anything there except listening to what their idea already is.
00:26:15.359 --> 00:26:17.680
Guide says, tell me some of the things that you like.
00:26:17.839 --> 00:26:18.400
Okay, good.
00:26:18.480 --> 00:26:25.680
This here's some things that you might try, or here's some things that I think you might get some benefit from, or something that you might like to do.
00:26:25.839 --> 00:26:32.000
So if you think of yourself as a guide, when you're having this relationship, you can follow your client's lead.
00:26:32.160 --> 00:26:40.000
This might be a few, not everybody's into jazz or improv music, but when improv musicians play, they follow each other's lead.
00:26:40.160 --> 00:26:44.319
And so if somebody goes one particular direction, you follow where they're going.
00:26:44.400 --> 00:26:49.599
And so it's kind of the same idea with our client relationships or the conversations that we're having with our clients.
00:26:49.759 --> 00:26:50.799
So we're paying attention.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:52.079
Do they seem agitated?
00:26:52.160 --> 00:26:55.519
If they seem agitated or irritated, or why aren't you telling, why aren't you giving me advice?
00:26:56.160 --> 00:26:57.039
You're an advisor.
00:26:57.200 --> 00:26:58.799
Give me advice, advise me.
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:02.079
Okay, then pick up on that and say, Is it okay?
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:06.000
It sounds like you're looking for something to something concrete to do.
00:27:06.079 --> 00:27:06.559
Is that right?
00:27:06.720 --> 00:27:07.200
Okay, good.
00:27:07.359 --> 00:27:08.960
Well, have you heard about a trust?
00:27:09.119 --> 00:27:10.000
Do you know what a trust is?
00:27:10.160 --> 00:27:12.160
And then you can go down that path.
00:27:12.319 --> 00:27:16.240
So if you feel resistance, you can lean into it.
00:27:16.400 --> 00:27:19.599
And so, you know, in motivational interviewing, they call it they call it dancing.
00:27:19.680 --> 00:27:22.319
So wrestling is when we're fighting each other.
00:27:22.720 --> 00:27:32.160
When you move, I'm trying to counter you move, I'm trying to prevent you from going a particular way, you're trying to prevent me from going a different direction when we're dancing, kind of like the jazz of the improv music.
00:27:32.240 --> 00:27:41.279
If somebody moves a particular way, I move with that, and that person's movement dictate what actions I can do next, and my actions dictate what the other person can do next.
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:54.559
So in in the textbooks, they call motivational interviewing kind of like a conversational dance where I'm picking up on what you're doing and I'm responding to what you're doing, and it kind of is you know an ebb and flow kind of like a dance.
00:27:54.720 --> 00:27:58.559
So I would say you don't know how the client's going to respond.
00:27:58.640 --> 00:27:59.839
So just pay attention.
00:28:00.000 --> 00:28:03.519
And if you pick up on resistance, you can use that.
00:28:03.839 --> 00:28:08.000
And you can actually, if you want, if you're comfortable with it, this a lot of this takes practice.
00:28:08.319 --> 00:28:09.920
If you want, you can actually ask.
00:28:10.000 --> 00:28:13.200
It seems like, or I'm sensing a little bit of agitation here.
00:28:13.279 --> 00:28:14.400
Is tell me more about that.
00:28:14.960 --> 00:28:15.519
Is that true?
00:28:15.680 --> 00:28:18.240
And they'll tell you, they'll tell you yes or no.
00:28:18.400 --> 00:28:20.880
And sometimes we're wrong, we're not always right.
00:28:21.279 --> 00:28:22.880
We're not always good mind readers.
00:28:22.960 --> 00:28:34.240
So sometimes checking in with what looks like resistance or what looks like frustration, maybe that's maybe this is the first time they've talked this much, and they're didn't know that they were gonna say this much, and they're confused.
00:28:34.319 --> 00:28:34.720
Why am I?
00:28:34.960 --> 00:28:45.359
Ted Flus calls this speaker's remorse, where you get yourself into a into a good listener's uh trance and you start talking and talking and talking and talking, and even in your head, you're saying, Why am I talking?
00:28:45.440 --> 00:28:46.480
Why am I saying this?
00:28:46.640 --> 00:28:48.559
That I've been on the receiving end of that.
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:50.079
It's it's uh it's it's weird.
00:28:50.160 --> 00:28:51.599
I didn't know I was gonna say all this.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:59.279
So sometimes it could be that I didn't know I was gonna spill my beans to a or you spill the beans or spill my guts to a financial advisor.
00:28:59.440 --> 00:29:05.759
But here I'm telling you about what happened in my childhood, and I'm telling you about all these weird things that happened, and it didn't even seem to be about money.
00:29:05.920 --> 00:29:09.759
So maybe it's not so much frustration, and maybe it's vulnerability.
00:29:09.920 --> 00:29:13.599
And so sometimes it's not as clear.
00:29:13.759 --> 00:29:16.960
So just checking in and seeing what's what's going on.
00:29:17.119 --> 00:29:19.680
Reading the cues, though, is the biggest piece of advice there.
00:29:19.759 --> 00:29:23.920
So if it looks like they're not connecting with what you're saying, you can you can pivot.
00:29:24.000 --> 00:29:24.400
It's okay.
00:29:24.480 --> 00:29:26.880
You can come an audible if you're a football fan.
00:29:27.200 --> 00:29:28.799
Yeah, I like I like that.
00:29:28.960 --> 00:29:37.920
That being able to attune right to the situation, which includes the client and also yourself, I think is important.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:52.480
And that permission, like you just mentioned, that it's okay to pivot if there is some resistance, if you're being met with that, you don't have to rigidly stick to the path of this is I'm only doing exquisite, reflective, like listening here.
00:29:52.559 --> 00:29:54.240
And that's all I'm gonna do here.
00:29:54.400 --> 00:30:02.640
Like, even though I can tell you're wanting some advice, like, nope, I'm sticking to the script and I'm going to, you know, be the best listener in this situation.
00:30:02.799 --> 00:30:03.759
It's okay to pivot.
00:30:03.839 --> 00:30:12.079
I think having that permission and flexibility there as a guide and some discernment knowing when to and when not to is pretty critical.
00:30:12.319 --> 00:30:23.200
So if we're thinking about, you know, this is kind of conversationally like client conversation, how we're interacting when it comes to using MI techniques.
00:30:23.599 --> 00:30:32.960
Do you have any thoughts or suggestions around where MI fits into like the process standpoint?
00:30:33.119 --> 00:30:40.319
I'm thinking about meeting structure, whether it's discovery meeting, you know, prospect, plan delivery, annual review.
00:30:40.400 --> 00:30:48.559
Like, what are your thoughts around how maybe advisors can incorporate whether it's questions or MI techniques, maybe into that process?
00:30:48.880 --> 00:30:58.960
One of the trickiest parts, I think, for implementing MI into financial advice or financial planning or life planning or whatever we're doing is we want ongoing relationships.
00:30:59.119 --> 00:31:01.680
When MI was invented, it was short term.
00:31:01.920 --> 00:31:02.880
There's one focus.
00:31:03.039 --> 00:31:07.359
I'm addicted to alcohol, I want to kick this addiction to alcohol.
00:31:07.519 --> 00:31:09.839
Once I've kicked the addiction to alcohol, we're done.
00:31:10.000 --> 00:31:12.720
Financial planning is there's not just one focus.
00:31:12.960 --> 00:31:16.000
There's, I mean, there's investing and estate planning and insurance and cash flow.
00:31:16.160 --> 00:31:17.200
Those are just the high levels.
00:31:17.279 --> 00:31:19.200
Within investing, there's multiple focuses.
00:31:19.440 --> 00:31:20.559
Within insurance, there's multiple.
00:31:20.880 --> 00:31:31.920
So there's that EFEP of stages, there's multiple of those going on at the same time, depending on what the client wants done, what kind of strategy they want, or what kind of outcome they're looking for.
00:31:32.079 --> 00:31:34.480
And we want ongoing clients, most of us.
00:31:34.640 --> 00:31:39.759
So there's not, okay, you've done it, tell your friends, you know, we want to keep this, we want to keep this going.
00:31:39.839 --> 00:31:47.920
So those are kind of the two tricky parts with implementing this strategy into financial planning, is the recognition that, all right, we're gonna meet the client where they are.
00:31:48.079 --> 00:31:53.119
So if it's a discovery meeting, say, we're in the engaged stage of motivational interviewing.
00:31:53.200 --> 00:31:58.720
And at the engaged stage of motivational interviewing, we're not really using these org skills strategically.
00:31:58.799 --> 00:32:06.000
We're not looking for any change talk, we're not looking to do anything except make the client feel heard and understood and acknowledged and safe.
00:32:06.400 --> 00:32:14.000
Sometimes, if it's a discovery meeting, uh sometimes they're coming from another advisor, but sometimes this might be it might be the first advisor that they've talked to before.
00:32:14.160 --> 00:32:16.960
And boy, I don't want to show you all the things that I've been doing wrong.
00:32:17.039 --> 00:32:19.920
And that's what advice is you telling me all the things I've been doing wrong.
00:32:20.079 --> 00:32:21.920
And boy, that's that's kind of scary for me.
00:32:22.079 --> 00:32:28.079
So the engaged stage is just to help the client feel from the prospect, I suppose, at this point, be understood.
00:32:28.240 --> 00:32:35.200
So you're reflecting everything that they say because you want to you want to make sure that they feel like like they got you.
00:32:35.279 --> 00:32:40.160
And when you do this, they're looking at three, five advisors, those other four aren't aren't doing this.
00:32:40.319 --> 00:32:47.759
They're not they're getting told, here's all the great things that we do, and here's how we help people, and here's the strategies that we're gonna use, and the whatever.
00:32:47.839 --> 00:32:58.000
But you come in and you say, love to hear what gets somebody like you to be talking to somebody like me, and then that's it, just super open-ended, and and you reflect and let them feel heard and understood.
00:32:58.319 --> 00:33:01.519
So just helping the prospect feel understood.
00:33:01.680 --> 00:33:04.480
That's how we're using that maybe in the early stages.
00:33:04.640 --> 00:33:14.240
Once they're a long-term client, so maybe the other end of this extreme is every time they the client wants something, they want to do something new, or they're thinking about doing something new.
00:33:14.400 --> 00:33:17.759
You've entered now a new kind of EFEP, a new stage.
00:33:17.920 --> 00:33:22.559
You've entered the new kind of it's a new version, new version of the EFEP stage.
00:33:22.640 --> 00:33:24.000
So I'll use this example.
00:33:24.240 --> 00:33:29.440
Man, I have some grandkids now, and I might want to move to Texas and sell my place in Maine.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:30.480
Maybe not, though.
00:33:30.720 --> 00:33:32.720
So this has been a client for 10 years.
00:33:32.880 --> 00:33:34.319
Now you, but this is a new thing.
00:33:34.559 --> 00:33:35.759
I haven't thought about this before.
00:33:35.839 --> 00:33:37.759
So we can still enter the engage stage.
00:33:37.839 --> 00:33:44.559
It's gonna be shorter than that the prospect stage because we know who they are, but I still want to hear tell me what's going on.
00:33:44.720 --> 00:33:47.839
What what was the straw that made you think you might want to move?
00:33:48.000 --> 00:33:51.200
Why are we talking about this now and not last year or yesterday?
00:33:51.680 --> 00:34:00.079
So we can start with that, but then we can quickly get into the focus, which is I want to remain neutral most of the time in terms of setting this focus.
00:34:00.319 --> 00:34:06.799
I shouldn't bring my values into this conversation and say, Well, of course, of course, you should move to be close to the grandkids.
00:34:06.880 --> 00:34:07.440
Are you kidding me?
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:08.559
This is gonna be so great.
00:34:08.639 --> 00:34:12.400
You should sell this place in Maine and move there, or probably vice versa.
00:34:12.639 --> 00:34:17.119
No, it'd be great to have you got this place right on the coast, and it'd be a great place for the grandkids to come.
00:34:17.599 --> 00:34:18.960
Not our job at this point.
00:34:19.119 --> 00:34:21.840
We can still have those thoughts, we just don't client in.
00:34:22.239 --> 00:34:25.760
We want to help them get to their own focus.
00:34:25.920 --> 00:34:32.719
So now we're using the or's skills to tell me what it would look like if you moved down to Texas.
00:34:32.880 --> 00:34:45.760
Tell me what it would look like if you flew down to Texas once a quarter and flew your grandkids up every summer, or and then do which one of these feels closer, which one feels like you, if it feels more feasible.
00:34:45.920 --> 00:34:55.039
Now we can maybe run some scenarios and see which like financially you're gonna be okay for both cases, or maybe the fact you know the money says one way is better than the other.
00:34:55.280 --> 00:34:57.440
Well, now they've decided okay, that you're right.
00:34:57.679 --> 00:35:00.320
We're gonna move, we're gonna sell and move to Texas.
00:35:00.559 --> 00:35:02.719
Okay, then we enter the engaged stage.
00:35:02.800 --> 00:35:04.960
So now it's you know back to the original.
00:35:05.039 --> 00:35:06.800
It's it's should we go on this journey together?
00:35:07.920 --> 00:35:08.559
Is engaged.
00:35:08.880 --> 00:35:10.480
Focus is where do we want to go?
00:35:10.639 --> 00:35:12.559
So I want to move to Texas is the focus.
00:35:12.719 --> 00:35:13.760
Why would we want to go there?
00:35:13.840 --> 00:35:21.360
So now this is kind of, I would say, what motivational interviewing seems to be most known for is evoking motivation.
00:35:21.599 --> 00:35:28.320
So now you've told me you want to move to Texas, and I can start to use these ORS skills a little more strategically.
00:35:28.480 --> 00:35:37.440
I can ask for, well, first I'm training my ear to listen for ChangeTalk, and we can sign a prism on ChangeTalk, but that might that might be a whole conversation.
00:35:38.000 --> 00:35:39.440
A whole other episode.
00:35:40.159 --> 00:35:40.800
Yeah.
00:35:41.119 --> 00:35:46.159
But high level, there is they like they like their acronyms, DarnCats.
00:35:46.480 --> 00:35:47.840
I like acts better.
00:35:48.000 --> 00:35:51.679
But D-A-R-N stands is like the motivational component for it.
00:35:51.760 --> 00:35:56.480
So you're listening for D is desire, A is ability, R is reason, N is need.
00:35:56.639 --> 00:36:00.079
So your desire language is I want to move to Texas.
00:36:00.320 --> 00:36:03.760
Ability is if I did decide to go there, I think it's good.
00:36:03.840 --> 00:36:04.639
I could make that work.
00:36:04.880 --> 00:36:06.559
Reasons is I have specific reasons.
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:08.960
My grandkids are there, and I don't want to miss them growing up.
00:36:09.119 --> 00:36:12.639
And perceived need is it's important to do this.
00:36:12.800 --> 00:36:14.239
And that builds up the motivation.
00:36:14.320 --> 00:36:16.559
And then on the other side, it's kind of the action side of it.
00:36:16.639 --> 00:36:19.840
So you got the motivation side and the action side, ACTS.
00:36:19.920 --> 00:36:22.559
So activation language is I'm getting ready to do something.
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.199
Commitment language is I'm I'm going to do this.
00:36:25.280 --> 00:36:26.239
I promise I'll do that.
00:36:26.400 --> 00:36:28.880
And TS is taking steps, they did something.
00:36:29.039 --> 00:36:33.599
So you're training your ear to listen to these types of talk in favor of their focus.
00:36:33.760 --> 00:36:35.440
In this case, moving to Texas.
00:36:35.519 --> 00:36:39.280
And then now they've they're sufficiently motivated, and now you can say, How do we get there?
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:40.960
Is it okay if I share with some strategies?
00:36:41.039 --> 00:36:42.159
I have some things in mind.
00:36:42.239 --> 00:36:43.199
I'd love to share them with you.
00:36:43.280 --> 00:36:43.920
Is that okay?
00:36:44.000 --> 00:36:49.039
Uh, you know, if you sell the house, we've got to be careful about capital gains, or we gotta, you know, there's all these different strategies.
00:36:49.199 --> 00:36:50.400
This is where you get to shine.
00:36:50.480 --> 00:36:55.360
This is where you really get to offer your advice, give you the strategies, give you the techniques.
00:36:55.440 --> 00:36:59.760
But we've first established rapport, figured out what they wanted, built up the motivation.
00:36:59.840 --> 00:37:05.199
Now they're primed for it, they're ready for it, take our advice, and then they move to Texas and live happily ever after.
00:37:05.280 --> 00:37:07.039
And so they have a new thing that they want to do.
00:37:07.280 --> 00:37:07.599
Right.
00:37:07.760 --> 00:37:08.320
Yeah, yeah.
00:37:08.400 --> 00:37:21.360
Well, and I love kind of what you mentioned there about from a time and place is that usually those engaging more deeply in use of MI skills is usually later on in the relationship.
00:37:21.519 --> 00:37:28.159
It's likely maybe not best use for kind of first time out the gate, first meeting there.
00:37:28.320 --> 00:37:42.000
As you said, some of that is focusing more just on the reflective listening and reflecting back to make sure that there is a level of emotional safety that is built up on the client side that's built between the two of you.
00:37:42.239 --> 00:37:52.159
So, Derek, if listeners are wanting to learn more, if this is their like article experience, right?
00:37:52.239 --> 00:38:01.519
That maybe you had many, many moons ago, if this is that experience for them and they're like, gosh, this sounds like something that would be really helpful for me.
00:38:01.679 --> 00:38:04.960
I could see myself utilizing some of this and I'd like to learn more.
00:38:05.199 --> 00:38:08.079
Where would you suggest them starting?
00:38:08.239 --> 00:38:11.280
Where can they start to learn more and dive into this model?
00:38:11.519 --> 00:38:16.000
Well, if they're readers, I and don't mind big honking books.
00:38:16.159 --> 00:38:17.199
I like the textbooks.
00:38:17.280 --> 00:38:18.800
So go straight to the source.
00:38:18.880 --> 00:38:20.400
There's a fourth edition out now.
00:38:20.880 --> 00:38:22.800
A lot of people that I know have the third edition.
00:38:22.880 --> 00:38:24.480
If you still have that one, that's still a good book.
00:38:24.639 --> 00:38:30.960
PsychWire is a website where you can learn asynchronously from the founders of motivational interviewing.
00:38:31.119 --> 00:38:32.800
Or there's a lot of YouTube videos.
00:38:32.880 --> 00:38:37.119
These are great ways to really dip your toe in and see, got this taste.
00:38:37.360 --> 00:38:38.880
And I kind of want more of this.
00:38:39.039 --> 00:38:44.320
Now, admittedly, this worked well for me because I was very interested in just the whole style.
00:38:44.480 --> 00:38:53.679
If you go into the textbooks, though, you're going to see a lot of examples around parenting issues and substance abuse issues and things that don't really apply to financial planning.
00:38:53.840 --> 00:39:03.119
So I have a course together through Money Quotient, a bootcamp, where I kind of do a lot of this translation for you, and I take these examples and I translate it into financial examples.
00:39:03.199 --> 00:39:11.679
So motivational interviewing boot camp to a course thing for those who want to, but even if you don't want to go that far, there's still tons of YouTube videos.
00:39:11.760 --> 00:39:13.119
There's still tons of resources.
00:39:13.199 --> 00:39:18.000
PsychWire, often there's discounts if you want to take it directly from the you know the founders of it.
00:39:18.159 --> 00:39:22.159
But there's just just look for information on it.
00:39:22.320 --> 00:39:25.360
Once you start looking for it, you'll see it out there everywhere.
00:39:25.599 --> 00:39:27.039
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
00:39:27.199 --> 00:39:32.400
So yeah, YouTube for sure, going directly kind of to the founders, the book.
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:39.440
But I love that you guys at Money Quotient are creating, have created, I should say, this boot camp there for.
00:39:39.599 --> 00:39:57.280
And to your point, I think this is what's kind of tricky sometimes, is that here's this model that it's built out of the mental health field and the translation piece of okay, but how do we translate that into where it makes sense and feels applicable for financial advisors?
00:39:57.360 --> 00:40:03.840
So kudos to you guys at Money Quotient for being able to take that framework and make the translation there.
00:40:04.079 --> 00:40:12.719
So, Derek, as we wrap up, I say unfortunately, as we as we wrap up, I like to ask all of my guests a question.
00:40:12.880 --> 00:40:35.199
And that question is that looking back at your earlier professional self, whatever age you consider that to be, but earlier professional self, what are maybe one to two pieces of advice that you would give to your younger self when it comes to starting in the profession, taking care of yourself?
00:40:35.360 --> 00:40:37.199
What are one to two pieces of advice?
00:40:37.760 --> 00:40:42.239
Well, I'd be honest, I I don't know that you know anybody more esoteric than me.
00:40:42.320 --> 00:40:46.800
So when I first read that, my my gut says, I wouldn't change anything because I like where I'm at.
00:40:47.119 --> 00:40:56.639
Anything that I would change in my past sets me on a completely different trajectory and I'm living in a different city with different people, and better and worse, or just value judgments and I don't know.
00:40:56.800 --> 00:40:58.639
So that's not the answer you're looking for.
00:40:58.800 --> 00:41:07.119
The real answer that to actually answer your question is I would lean into and learn and dive into mindfulness a lot earlier.
00:41:07.280 --> 00:41:26.000
So if motivational interviewing is a magic trick for helping clients change, mindfulness is the magic trick for changing yourself and changing how you interact with the world and cutting reactivity and choosing to be present and recognizing that the past and the future are only thoughts, and right now is all you have.
00:41:26.079 --> 00:41:29.360
But you can still get to choose mindfully what to do going forward.
00:41:29.679 --> 00:41:34.639
It's just a practice that I wish I would have done a lot sooner in my life.
00:41:34.960 --> 00:41:35.280
Awesome.
00:41:35.440 --> 00:41:39.760
Well, I will validate the esoteric part of you that says I will change and would have changed nothing.
00:41:39.920 --> 00:41:44.719
And then there's this other part of me that says I would have incorporated mindfulness a lot sooner.
00:41:44.880 --> 00:41:46.800
So I think both can exist.
00:41:46.960 --> 00:41:49.039
Both answers and responses can exist.
00:41:49.199 --> 00:41:50.960
Typical therapist response, right?
00:41:51.119 --> 00:41:52.239
I can't help myself.
00:41:52.480 --> 00:41:58.239
Well, for all of you out there, thank you for joining us today on Planning and Beyond.
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Remember that exceptional financial planning goes beyond the numbers.
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It's about creating deeper understanding and meaningful connections with your clients.
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Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going beyond.
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Thanks for joining me on this episode of Planning and Beyond.
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I hope you found today's insights valuable and inspiring for both your practice and your personal growth.
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If you enjoy the show, please subscribe and leave a review on your favorite podcast platform.
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Your feedback helps us reach more advisors like you who are dedicated to making a difference.
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For more resources, tips, and to continue the conversation, visit our website at beyondthefp.com.
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You'll find articles, tools, and information about upcoming episodes designed to support your journey and practice.
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Stay connected with us on social media and never miss an update.
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Follow us on Twitter and LinkedIn.
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And remember, the best way to grow is to keep learning and sharing.
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Until next time, keep planning, keep growing, and keep going.
