Katie Cadwell: you
Jack: I actually accidentally put this in for an hour. I don't think we need a whole hour at all. I was hoping this would be like half an hour max because like who's got the attention span to listen to anything that's longer than 10 minutes anyway. that's so apologies for that. But yeah, so I'll kind of start off with like a little mini intro before we get into things which I'm sure you're going to absolutely love because I'm going to be singing your praises and
Katie Cadwell: Mm-mm. Yeah. Cool.
Jack: saying stuff about you that may or may not be true. ⁓ Katie Cadwell, ⁓ is a landscape gardener. But also then I sent over some examples of some questions, but I wasn't actually expecting you necessarily to prepare for them just so you have them.
Katie Cadwell: Ugh, so cringe. Yeah, no, I haven't, because I'm not very good if I prepare, so I'm better off off the cuff. So I read them, but yeah.
Jack: Yeah. and kind of conversational obviously like I guess like the questions just give you like a general gist of the theme but I guess we've got the benefit of having met before so like it's much easier just to flow and just see where it goes. I am gonna ask you about off festival as well because it'd interesting to get some hot takes and obviously if I ask you anything and you're just like I've got nothing on that it's fine because as you know
Katie Cadwell: Okay. Okay cool.
Jack: I even know why I'm telling you this, because you do your own podcast. yeah, just cutting room floor, sticking on the reels for laughs or whatever. don't know. All right. Are you ready? Let's do this. Here we go. I'm to switch into professional host mode. All righty. So welcome to Open Studio. I'm Jack Trotman, and with me today is Katie Cadwell.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, cutting room floor. Yeah, cool. Nice. Let's go for it.
Jack: co-founder, creative director of Lucky Dip. Hello. ⁓ So, it's been a little while. ⁓ I think, you know, last time I met you, we were just catching up and just talking about you when you were still quite early in founding Lucky Dip, I think. And, you know, it's great to see as the years go by how you're growing and how your presence is.
Katie Cadwell: Hello! Hi. Yeah. Yeah.
Jack: ⁓ getting shared in more places and you're showing up and all. I see you doing things like this all the time now, like talks and things like that. Has that been fun?
Katie Cadwell: It's so fun, but I hope that people don't think, ⁓ here she is again. So I, you know, I, but I really enjoy it. I just like chatting to people, but, if people click on and listen, then that's, then obviously they're still interested, but do, I do love it.
Jack: Yeah, so so lucky dip branding studio you talk about doing great work and having a good time doing it. I've always felt anytime I've spoken to you, I've always had a good time. It's always fun. I guess a bit about your background. You've worked at some really big names, right? You know, how and how Coto Design Studio Dixon Baxi. It's like tick, tick, tick. And like, I imagine there's probably a shelf of awards somewhere at home that you've kind of earned along the way. Why aren't they in your background?
Katie Cadwell: I got a couple, but no, because that's too much. There's nothing worse than someone dials in and they've got a shelf full of pencils behind them. It's like, come on. But I do have a couple, but they're next to the photos of my dog and my niece.
Jack: Yeah. ⁓ lovely. I've just got a pot of pencils on my desk to draw with. And obviously, of course, you're also the founder of the NDA podcast, which if people haven't listened to yet, actually probably just pause this, stop what you're doing and go and find that and listen to that instead, because it's the best podcast out there. ⁓ No, genuinely, like you talk about honest things, you talk about things that happening in design right now. And I think it's a it's a really, really great podcast if no one's heard a bit, but I'm sure probably all have. ⁓ So Katie, you're back from off festival in Barcelona. I it's been a couple of days. Hopefully you're feeling recovered. For those that don't know ⁓ what off festival is, I guess it's like the design world's answer to a school trip where everyone kind of just pretends to be there for the talks. But really it's probably about just hanging out. ⁓ Is that true? What actually happens there?
Katie Cadwell: Thank you. There was way more hanging out than I knew, because it was my first time going. And I was like ready, you my little notebook. And day two, I left my notebook at home and I just had my little plastic cup ready to go to the bar. But no, was a designer school trip is such a good way of putting it. It was brilliant. The talks I did see and the ones earlier on in the day are kind of easier to remember and recall. were fantastic and the setup was so good. But the best bit was just hanging out with loads of people that I don't get to see and all being in person. It was really, really fun. And I am just about recovered, but I can't, know, my stamina as I'm getting a little bit older, it's flagging.
Jack: Yeah, well, last time I was in Barcelona, it wasn't for off, was for primavera. And I got really into Martini Russell with like sparkling water. And that Oh, yeah, that's, think that combined with sun is just a recipe for disaster. But also, I had a great time. I had a really good time. And, you know,
Katie Cadwell: Yep.
Jack: Okay, so our festival, I've never been, I'm actually not really one for going to these big events because even though I sort of probably present myself as a bit of an extrovert at times, I actually get a bit overwhelmed in moments like that. I'm definitely way more of like a smaller group kind of thing. I've seen it from the outside and I see people raving about it, but I also see people being quite like skeptical of the whole thing. Like people being like...
Katie Cadwell: Mm. Yeah.
Jack: It's just an expensive way to stand in a room full of designers pretending to network and stuff like that. having been someone that's actually been to that and been to those talks, what was the most useful thing that you took away from it this time? What did you go back and put in your notebook after the drinks? On the plane home.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. you go back and put your headphones on after. Yeah, on the plane home. I think networking is a stretch, right? Because actually networking as a studio founder, you should be networking with clients. That's the kind of, you should be in a room where you can just grasp at sell, right? And make connections that are gonna bring projects in. But actually I found myself with lots of other small studio founders. So was hanging out with the guys from Studio Kiln.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: an Ambler and designed by Twist. And we were just sat talking about how was your year last year? You know, how big is your team right now? How are you scaling your team? Are you happy being remote? Are you making any money? Are you expensing this whole thing? We were even chatting about, you know, what's your Figma bill like at the moment? Cause ours is insane. So I think my main takeaway was actually now that I am a studio founder, I need to... create a community of people who I can have those types of conversations with. I'm very fortunate that I've got a co-founder. So I have daily support, ⁓ Hattie, and she's absolutely brilliant. But it was really, really nice to hear about other people's experiences. And that's not what I thought I would get from the experience at all. So I learned more, stood by the bar than I did sat watching the talks. But I enjoyed the talks as well. But yeah, it was... It was really beneficial. So I came back feeling quite ⁓ optimistic about being one of these newer, smaller studios and that there's quite a good crew of us trying to do things slightly differently from the big studios that we grew up in. Not better, not worse, just differently. So I felt quite, quite buoyed by that.
Jack: Yeah, I guess on your own terms, aren't you? And also, did you find that you were agreeing with everything all the other small studios were saying? Or did you actually feel confident that you've kind of found your own version of what it looks like? I guess that's the thing, because you see a lot of other people setting up their own studios, and there's probably a temptation to almost follow a formula, because it's like, it worked for them. They've got those kinds of clients.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, exactly.
Jack: I could do that, I could just do that. ⁓ You know, Lucky Dip, it's a great name by the way. Where did that come from? ⁓
Katie Cadwell: Thank you. That's Hattie's genius. That's all Hattie. Basically we had a few working names and we were kind of saying that my creative portfolio and her background, there's no through line. Like it doesn't really make sense. It's a bit of a mess all on one page. And we were like, oh, it's a bit like when you play Lucky Dip, like you get a prize every time, but you don't know what it's going to be. So we really liked that. And also we like...
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: working with lots of different types of people from different places. So we quite like it's kind of a metaphor for an amalgamation of things that make something that you want, essentially.
Jack: I mean, it's, it's, I think it's also probably it sets a tone, I would say as well. Like you see certain studios with certain names and there's some studios with names that have a maybe more serious way of being interpreted or something. think Lucky Dip just feels like it. I've not met Hattie yet, but just I'm assuming that Hattie matches and pairs with you perfectly. And I feel like you kind of get a sense of who you even got to work with before you even start to interact with them. And that is something not to be scorned at. Like you do branding, you got brand yourself right first, you nailed it. Yeah. ⁓
Katie Cadwell: ⁓ thank you.
Jack: Yeah, or I hope more people have been telling you that because they should. ⁓ OK, so what does an actual day look like then? I guess if you're still building the studio in some ways, how does that feel like from the inside?
Katie Cadwell: Mm. Yeah, good question. I mean, I think when you are kind of younger, so we were two last week, there is no set anything. Everything is kind of evolving and changing and adapting. We start every day with our dip in where we just, because we're fully remote at the moment, we meet up kind of like twice a month. ⁓ So it's just to make sure that everyone has spoken to somebody that day, you know, because sometimes everyone's busy and it's really important to make sure we have a chat. So we have our little dip in in the morning and everyone goes off on their tasks. I mean, we're, think we're doing a good job at working remotely and collaboratively. Every program we use, everyone's in. So you kind of see someone's cursor drive by and we're leaving comments. And so that's...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: That's how we kind of kick off. then yeah, every day looks really different, to be honest. Like if Hattie and I are in a kind of brand workshop or something, then we'll be out for a few hours and team are kind of working on bits. But yeah, there's no, there's no system. There's, there's no like every day looks just completely different. And I think that's quite nice from a creative point of view is you never really know what you're going to be working on next. So it keeps it kind of fresh. We've got lots of different projects in the studio, all in different areas, different clients. So it's, yeah, so like a pick and mix kind of with our dip ins and dip outs. They're the only things that stay the same.
Jack: It's all based on ⁓ different things you can get from the tuck shop, isn't it? Lucky Dip, Pick and Mix, Dip in. Yeah, so the chocolate digestive is obviously when it gets serious. So, yeah, before Lucky Dip, you'd spent, I guess, almost a decade in some of these really, really well-respected agencies before you went off and did this. And was there a defining moment?
Katie Cadwell: Pretty much. ⁓
Jack: where you just thought right I'm doing this or is that something that kind of happened over a progression of time I think for anyone that's maybe thinking about doing what you've done I imagine that leap of faith is quite difficult to do but how did that happen for you?
Katie Cadwell: Mm. I think I was always one of these people that thought I wanted my own studio. And I think there are some people who feel that way and some people that don't. as I, so my first agency, I worked at a brilliant studio called Supple Studio where I was the first employee. So was just my boss, Jamie and me. And then that team grew. So I saw how to run a studio and I saw all the inner workings and I saw the good bits and the bad bits and how difficult it is. but also how much fun we had. And then I had this itch to have the big studio experience, like that big agency moment. So that's when I made the leap, went out to design studio, ⁓ which was a completely different, just different. can't really compare the two agencies of that size. When I left design studio and I went freelance, I loved freelance so much. And I really didn't think it would suit me, but I just liked meeting loads of new people and I'm quite nosy, like seeing inside everyone's studios, different types of projects and the autonomy of being a freelancer. I probably could have stayed freelancing. ⁓ But I'd met Hattie while I was in design studio and we had talked on and off over a glass of wine on a Friday about, know, we could do that. I think we could do a really good job of this. ⁓ This might be a bit savage of me to say, but I'll say it because you me, I'm unfiltered. I was freelancing somewhere, unnamed, and I was working with a creative director who was a freelance creative director, or I think he might've even been a freelance ECD. I've just gendered him, I shouldn't have done that. And yeah, I mean, yeah, there are...
Jack: They're on to you. Don't talk about me like that. I can't believe you're talking about me.
Katie Cadwell: And I ⁓ just in this single experience I had with him, I thought I could do that. I think I could do that better than you're doing it. And that was, that was probably my like emotional turning point where I went, I think I could actually, because I, and it sounds, it's terrible really. have to see someone who you think is not doing a great job to believe that you could do a good job. sounds like the imposter, the opposite of imposter syndrome, right? But so the combination of Hattie being really ready to start the studio and me freelancing and thinking, I might have hit my roof here. Like, I'm not sure what else I'm gonna learn if I don't really think the people that I'm working with are, you know, exceptional, brilliant people. ⁓ So the combination of those two things, I don't mean that to sound cruel. I think that was just more the turning point in my confidence.
Jack: Hey. I think that's that that same moment of thinking that same kind of exchange is how I see education design education working out its best. Not when not when a teacher is doing a shit job, but actually when when a teacher is able to develop someone into someone who's a better designer than they could ever be or that they are. And so and you almost kind of want your students to reach a point where
Katie Cadwell: Mm.
Jack: they stop asking for permission or they stop asking like your opinion on something that they've actually just they've got it and it is kind of similar it's almost that push where you're like hmm yeah I I feel confident that I could do this because I feel like I can do this better than you which sounds kind of strange but it is a similar thing
Katie Cadwell: Mm. Yeah.
Jack: Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it is always going to be the case that if everything's rosy, it will just stay rosy, won't it? So probably most people leap into something after an experience that's just been a bit uncomfortable. It's like change. You know, why do we invent stuff? Because something's not working as well as it could. So it's the same mentality, isn't it?
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. Yes, that's true. That's true. Yeah.
Jack: I can't hear it, turn it up. ⁓ Yeah, I want to talk about freelance for a second though then, because obviously you've come from a freelance background more recently before you set up Lucky Dip. And now you're running Lucky Dip, co-running Lucky Dip. I am assuming like freelance is a part of your team on projects, right? I think I saw, ⁓ yeah, I saw a great video. I can't remember his name. It was really awesome. He's talking about motion principles. I was like this.
Katie Cadwell: Hmm. huge. ⁓ Max. Max Phillips, yeah.
Jack: Yeah, this guy's great. was like, he should be one of our teachers on our motion course because that's how we teach it. was like, he'd be brilliant. And he was funny, actually, might I say, which I think is a rare beast in design. But I imagine freelancers, obviously, they're part of your makeup, but... as I'm sure we agree on, they're not just a resource that you bring in when you're busy. I think for a studio like yours, it's also part of how you really build that culture as well as the output of the studio. How do you go about finding freelancers and what's the relationship like at the moment?
Katie Cadwell: massively. Do you know what's, when I first started, I wanted to just work with all the people that I had worked with and come into contact with during my career that I thought were brilliant. And some of those interactions were only a week long and I thought, they'd be brilliant. So that's sort of where we started from my own network, I guess. Then I became aware that there's this thing where agencies just recycle the same freelancers all the time. And if you're recycling the same talent. is kind of how I ended up going through like the top, the big four agencies while I was freelancing is you get in with one and then you get in with the next and the next. It means that they're a really safe way of hands and they're obviously brilliant, but then is all our work gonna start to look the same? So once we were a bit more comfortable, we just would see a cool bit of work and reach out and say, are you freelancing? And we've had mixed success because it...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: It's difficult to establish a really good relationship when you're all remote. We would find a freelancer that we loved and then try our very best to keep them, but we can't compete with a three month or a six month block booking that another studio can give these freelancers that level of security, which of course they want. That's how I freelanced. So we ended up working with people that we hadn't worked with before, which was really exciting. And I think that that's contributed to
Jack: Hmm.
Katie Cadwell: ⁓ the culture of the business and also how our work has carried on feeling so diverse. We have our faves, of course, ⁓ like Max is a legend and we have people that we have in time and time again. But every time we have a new brief, like copywriting is a really good example. We don't tend to have the same copywriters come in ⁓ because every copywriter writes in a slightly different ways, thinks really, really fun to have a different kind of copywriter for a different style of project. So it's, there's, don't get me wrong, it's work to find the right freelancers, establish the right relationship, but when it works, it's so, it's so cool. And I don't know how many freelancers we've had in since we've started, but a lot. So there are dippers. I mean, how much more can you milk a studio name, but we do call them our dippers.
Jack: I yeah, but once again, but once again, it just feels right, you know, it just feels good. You know, you know, on one of the dippers, it actually sounds like a, is there like a basketball team or something? I don't know, it feels like you're part of a team. I think that's what's important. You don't just feel like this isolated person that's kind of a mercenary. It's like, do the work, see you later. I'll probably won't credit you for it, but thanks, bye. It's so important. So
Katie Cadwell: Yeah.
Jack: interesting backstory. think we maybe talked about this before. think Hattie knows my best mate John, who's a film director, filmmaker, and we, John and I used to live together. And he has, I think he's got two different Instagram accounts, or at least he has like a professional Instagram account, which would just be like where he'd put up his like...
Katie Cadwell: Yes.
Jack: amazing shots and photographs and what to try and get work. And one night we were all like singing around the piano having a laugh like just as we always did. Because we used to be a place where bands would come and stay over. ⁓ I won't bore you with a long story of why, but it was just good fun. And so we had all these people around singing whatever.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah.
Jack: He filmed it and then he put it on his Instagram story because we were probably a bit drunk as well and I think he put it on the wrong one or something like that. Next day he was like, oh I've shared that on my professional account. Oh no. But then literally like a couple of days later someone was like, I'm looking for someone on a job. like, it's next week. Are you available? He's like, yeah, sure. Goes to the job. And he just said like out of interest, like what was the thing that made you think that I could do this? It was a
Katie Cadwell: You
Jack: It was a really good project. And they were like, well, you know what? That just video of you guys just having a laugh just made me think I want to work with you. He was like, ⁓ And then it just changed his whole perspective of what do people want from a freelancer.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah.
Jack: it does feel like a human. like I'm going to work with you for a couple of months. Especially in film, you're going on location and you're off in Norway somewhere, staying in a cabin together. But have you got any advice for a freelancer of ways in which they can not just network or whatever, but how would you...
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. Yeah.
Jack: come across someone, will it be specific to a job or will you just be kind of constantly looking and saving people for future and what could people do that would help them potentially stand out?
Katie Cadwell: I, I, this is quite like a boring answer probably, but I do think a lot of it comes down to availability. And maybe that's our experience of running a small studio. I'm not sure, but sometimes we won't know we need a freelancer until two months before, ⁓ sorry, two weeks before. ⁓ and then it does become a little bit about who can we get and who's available. So I love when freelancers check in quite consistently once a month.
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: just to let you know, I'm free from here to here. This is my day rate. Here's a reminder of my portfolio. That's perfect for me. And I will literally sometimes type freelancer into the search bar of my emails. Like, because it's, we're still working quite reactively, I guess, at times. So it's about just making it actually really easy to see that you're there and you're available. So.
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: Like I said, kind of a boring answer, but so many people send their portfolios over and don't say when they're available and don't say what their day rate or their level is. And then that's like, well, there's a whole exchange then that has to happen. Whereas if you give me all of that information upfront, and I know I've got something in three weeks, I'm like, okay, cool. Let's jump on a call and I can chat to you about that specific project. Cause I know we can afford it in the budget. And I know you've got the experience and I know that you're free.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah, that's so you're right. But I think the boring answer, the more straightforward thing is good because then it's like, ⁓ I can do that. Just remind myself to do that every time. It's practical. Yeah. Has anyone that's worked with you freelance become something more permanent as a result of that? Or are we not there yet in that sense?
Katie Cadwell: It's practical. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good question. We haven't hired any of our freelancers as PIRM staff. We've taken on two people really recently, but we haven't. And I think on the whole, the freelancers that we work with are really happy freelancing. so, yeah, so I've never even kind of offered, because I just sort of assume that everyone's really happy and I know that they're busy and I know that they've got loads of work and... we'll always have, we'll always need freelancers. So it's not like the work with us is gonna dry up. But I do know a few studios that have junior freelancers in as a kind of test of whether they want to hire them. But yeah, we haven't done it that way.
Jack: Yeah, I guess it's almost like an internship or an apprenticeship, isn't it? Yeah, and they're actually probably testing out that studio just as much as the studio is testing them out. So you've just recently brought two people on. I imagine when you're starting out at this stage. Is that right? Sorry, you brought on, I think we've got a slight lag going on now, but is that, can you?
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so we've
Jack: How delayed am I? I don't know. Okay. All right, cool. ⁓ So yeah, so you mentioned that you've got two people now working with you full time. Yes. ⁓
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, all good. No, no, not that delayed, you're fine. Yeah, so we took on a full time midway designer and then we've taken on a junior designer on ⁓ a contract. But yeah, so two slightly more permanent dippers.
Jack: more permanent dippers. When I worked once in a studio, we had a chart of biscuits. and it was based on, I think I need to recreate this chart, it was based on how long you could dip it in a cup of tea for. So we just spent like weeks and weeks and weeks of like buying all the different types of biscuits and then like we'd test them in the same conditions, made a big chart. I think it was our way, bear in mind this was in like, I don't know, 2014 or something, but this was our way of being like, this would be cool, like clients will like this sort of thing. I think in the end it just became like... some sort of naval gazing experiment. I can, that was, you know, again, again, with dipping with being a permanent dipper. I think I need to do the test again, because we could figure out what's the permanent biscuit, biscuit of choice, if you forget that you're dipping it. So, so you've got two permanent members, two people you just brought on. And I imagine at this point in time, like
Katie Cadwell: You you
Jack: If you were a huge agency bringing people on, you're probably still like really thinking about fit and all those sorts of things. But when it's just a few of you working together day to day, you can't stress enough how important the right person is to help you build the culture, to help you feel confident that you can go to Barcelona for a few days and everything's still happening, right?
Katie Cadwell: Yep. Yep.
Jack: when you're looking for those like people what were you really looking for like you can be totally honest like was it was it was it the work or was it more than that
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. I think we were trying really hard to look at the work alone because I don't believe that hiring for a culture fit is a good idea or that leads to good diverse teams because what I might think is a culture fit might lead my team to look a certain way. So we weren't hiring for a cultural fit.
Jack: Yes.
Katie Cadwell: A, because we don't know what our culture really is yet, still is a moving, evolving, changing beast. And because I don't want to hire people that work like me, that's kind of pointless. I want people that work differently to me, think differently to me. want the work to be just to come from different points of view. So we looked at the work, we were looking at the work primarily. And then only in the kind of...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: Third, we did a few rounds of interviews, but only in that last round did we ask ourselves the question, how would we feel working with this person day in, day out? But we tried really hard to reserve that question until quite late on in the process.
Jack: Yeah, I suppose when you're presenting Lucky Dip to new clients, that mantra of kind of... I think it was that I did great work, but having a good time doing it, there must have been a part of that idea of like, who can I imagine my clients enjoying working with that must have had something to do with. So maybe that, yeah, as you say, that maybe that's not what we call cultural fit, because I agree that can just form these bubbles of sameness. ⁓ But there must be something in that, like you're probably thinking about who they might, who you're going to put them in front of, right? In some ways.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. Yeah, and we want people that are optimistic, I think is a really big one for Hattie and I because the whole ethos of the studio is built around optimism and trying to enjoy our work and look after ourselves and make brilliant creative. So they needed to be optimistic people, that was a given, because if you have one pessimistic person in the team, it very quickly brings everyone else down. It's like a sponge, right?
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: So optimism was probably the number one thing we were looking for. And then also an aspiration to grow and to learn and evolve. I don't think I'm a finished product. Hattie doesn't think she's a finished product. The studio certainly isn't one. So we were looking for people who were excited to grow personally and excited to help us shape the studio. And we didn't want that to come off as, know, you could do whatever you want and you can... You can make the studio whatever you want it to be, because it's not that, but it's more like a collaboration of the team to tweak and move us and alter our path. So I guess I probably needed, we were probably also looking for someone that had that kind of confidence and the passion. So that, think that's, I mean, it's a difficult thing to try and quantify, isn't it? Cause you're sat in front of a real person and you...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: It feels awful that you're judging them, I suppose they're the kind of qualities that we kept coming back down to while we were choosing.
Jack: in the application process that I guess on the one hand I could ask you about what makes a good portfolio a good portfolio but that's so subjective in many ways isn't it? But I suppose... broader than that, like what makes a good application a good application because that's inclusive of a portfolio but what else is there like what have you experienced from being on the hiring side that's taught you a few things about how you might you know approach this if you were to do it again like what would be some good advice for anyone that's applying right now simple things I guess you know could it be boring tips again even you know
Katie Cadwell: Hmm. Thank Yeah. I've got so, I've got so many boring tips. ⁓ the first thing I would say is read the job description. You know, we were looking for juniors and mids and if you're a senior or a DD, this is not the role for you. And you've wasted a bit of your time and you've wasted a bit of our time. if we've asked you to put job application in the subject line, put job application in the subject line, because for all, you know, we've got a filter set up. and anything that is outside of the questions that we like, the task that we gave you might not even hit the right inbox. And to just make your email sound like you in a succinct way. We had 800 applications in the first week of posting our job ad, which I never expected.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: Um, that amount. we closed the applications because I wanted to be able to review them all. And it was getting to a point where I wouldn't be able to. And I would say 10, 15 % of those applications hadn't read the job ad. They, we'd asked for a UK visa. Um, we'd asked for a few things so that there was like a portion that hadn't done that. And then we probably had 10, another 10, 15 % who had the exact same email.
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: And I mean word for word, the exact same email. So it's obvious that they've taken the job ad, put it through chat. I don't mind that if you're a junior and you're nervous to write your first email, but I get no character. get no understanding of who you are. And it was really difficult not to just discount those because I was like, it feels lazy. Perhaps it's more fear of writing that email and in that professional setting. But that was disheartening every time I opened an email and I was like, oh, it's the same four lines again.
Jack: like, it'd be, you know what, because it's obviously easy for easy, because we had a similar thing where we were, we had job applications out there and yeah, chat GPT, chat GPT, you tell, you could tell. But having said that, you know, I got frustrated at first just thinking, you know, ⁓ I just want you to talk to me. directly, yeah, just if you've got something to say, just like, you know, it's okay if it's spelled wrong, whatever. But then I thought a lot about kind of what's happening on LinkedIn, right? And, you know, not to piss anyone off, but there's some huge names out there. And there so many designers out there that are just putting this like chat GPT hot takes every single day, people that I really respect. And I'm like,
Katie Cadwell: Mm.
Jack: or if you're going to go out on social media and all of the content you're putting out there is formed through AI, then I guess like what sort of like what precedent are you setting? Like what do you expect when then people come at you with AI generated stuff again and again and again? So, you know.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I get, I get it if I kind of get it for the, why people would do it maybe for the bigger studios. Like we're talking about designers that might have sent 20 job applications, right. That week. But you could tell our job ad wasn't written by AI and it would take you no time at all to do research, to understand that we're a really small studio. ⁓ so you would hope that they would know that someone personally would be reviewing that job application.
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: I've since found out that's not a given at all that someone will be reviewing your job application. I just thought that was the norm, but there are a lot of people running them all through AI themselves. So I get it. That's what I mean. It's kind of a weird one, but for me personally, it really cast kind of an odd light on those applicants.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah, did anyone do anything surprising? ⁓ Did you receive anything? Yeah, that was nice. Yes.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, we had, we had some posts, old school, someone sent some posts. We had a couple of people who styled up their CVs and portfolios in the Lucky Dip brand, which I thought was a really, really nice touch. We had people who had clearly made portfolios specifically for us, people who had emailed saying that they liked this episode of the podcast and clearly done a lot of research. So they were...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: someone who did a custom like comic book, anime illustration. So there were people that really did go to a lot of effort and that they stuck out so much in the kind of realm of people that clearly hadn't put much effort in.
Jack: Amazing. Yeah and it's I think I I've met I met up with a few Shillington graduates on Monday night actually and one of them was asking me some advice of of this and they were like there's a job out there at studio I really want to work at but I'm too scared to apply I was like why it's like because you know you apply and I bet a thousand thousand other people have applied I was like okay fair enough but how about you just like call them up and go and visit them and they were like really? Well, you've got nothing to lose, you know, or maybe if there's another studio also hiring that you don't want to work at, go and try that there and have a chance to maybe have an awkward exchange and go, okay, how can I do that better next time? And the amount of people that just don't see the, it's an opportunity, isn't it? Like how to stand out and there is there are ways of standing out and
Katie Cadwell: Mm.
Jack: now more than ever getting a lovely little thing in the post or being sent a bespoke thing can make a huge impact. Hopefully those people then kind of stay in your on your radar I suppose like in many ways. Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: 100%. Yeah, anyone who went to additional effort, I also made sure to say in the email, like, this really stood out and thank you so much. And I've got a long list of people I want to freelance with now off the back of going through that process.
Jack: Yeah, I think you're a really interesting moment as a studio now because obviously as said two years in every hire is going to matter, like every person you bring on is going to really matter. For both of you, are you thinking... one year, two years, three years, how far ahead are you starting to think now that you've sort of got through that second year? Like what is the vision now?
Katie Cadwell: You Yeah. What a good question. I think we used to think like two hours ahead and then it went 24 hours ahead and then you're a week ahead. We talk a lot about, cause we are at this kind of moment of scale, I suppose. I feel nervous to say the word scale, but we are growing. We want to do that very slowly, very intentionally and only if it's right for us. I think we, we...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: We kind of said, we liked the idea of a team of seven, eight, nine, no more than 10. Neither of us have, we don't want multiple studios across the world filled with hundreds of people. ⁓ We just want a really good core team in one studio. So we've talked about that in a loose sense. Actually coming back from off, I did say to Hattie, I went to a talk, ⁓ Nils Leonard spoke and
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: He was saying that you need almost to have like this manifestation list for your business. And we did one when we first started and we haven't done it again since. So I think now we're at a good moment where we could do with refreshing, like what does success look like for you? What does it look like for me? What does it look like for the studio? See how we're tracking on what we set out when we first started. So yeah, we talk. We do talk further ahead than we have done, but I think being a small studio in this climate, there's a nervousness to talk too far ahead and kind of get ahead of yourself. But yeah, so no more than 10 people though. That's kind of the, that's sort of the rough plan at the moment. You can quote me on that in a few years time.
Jack: And where would it, yeah, when there's like a photo of Yee-Tee standing in front of like 100 people, like all up the stairs of this like massive New York flashy studio, where would your studio, yeah, ⁓ yeah, you're like sitting on a giant pencil. Where would the studio be then? Like where are you happy being online? You know the word remote?
Katie Cadwell: All the pencils behind us.
Jack: I'm starting to get quite annoyed by that word only because it makes me feel like and when I drill into the semantics of it a bit it's like it just feels like remote disconnected.
Katie Cadwell: Mm. Yeah.
Jack: I feel like we need to come up with, I feel like, you know, if anyone was going to come up with a better phrase for it, it would be you. I'm sure you'll find a way of like linking it into your brand. If you do like, please tell me if you want to workshop one now, I'm happy to, but are you happy staying in this remote kind of working way, which obviously is probably works well with freelancers because you can get people from all over the world. Or are you looking to kind of have a fixed place or have some kind of physical presence?
Katie Cadwell: Mm. You It honestly, it's such a good question. And we kind of jumped back and forward between yes and no all the time. I think as we were hiring, we were kind of interested to see where our talent would come from. And if we hired someone from Cornwall and someone from Scotland, then you're like, cool, decision made. As it turns out, they're all pretty London based or close to London. Hattie's in London. I'm the outlier. I'm down in Devon.
Jack: Yeah, interesting. Mm.
Katie Cadwell: I, there's, there's something, so I don't mind remote because I live in quite a remote location. So maybe that's why it feels like it, suits me. I'm like the satellite. ⁓ but I love, I love the idea of having a physical space. I do think that that will be dictated depending on the team that we build. There will be people that remote working suits them really well. And there will be people where remote working doesn't suit them well and we still really want to work with them. So it's kind of open.
Jack: Yeah. you Hmm.
Katie Cadwell: It's a pretty open topic between Hattie and I at the moment. And we don't mind that we don't necessarily have an answer or a resolution to it because she might want to move. You you can't imagine we all, I wouldn't move back up to London, but hypothetically, we moved up to London, got a studio, then one team member moves to Leeds, Hattie decides she wants to live in Brighton. You know, like there's so many moving parts, so ⁓ inconclusive, but.
Jack: Yeah. No, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: happy for now, but very aware that it's a setup that needs constant kind of questioning and nurturing.
Jack: When I speak to anyone about, so we've got two studios, we've got one in Manchester and one in London and ⁓ I live in Matlock, I live in the Peak District. I go to Manchester like a few times a week, I was in London earlier this week as well. You know, make it work when you want to see people to spend time together but when anyone's kind of like, ⁓ you know, but you need to all be in the same place, know, how can you trust that people are doing the right thing? I just remind people of, it's always a very specific type of person as well that says that. I always remind people of like the Victorian era. I'm like, think about, well, they had studies in their house and they would work in their study. There was a room called a study, right? That's where you did your work. And then you'd go off and like meet people in a, I don't know, a gentleman's club, whatever. it's, and because when you say that, of course, that's like speaking. the people who are saying these things are like, oh, gentlemen's cup, yes, I'm a member of the one of those as well. Yeah, you're like, ah, let's see eye to eye on this. I think it's so, when you just remind them of that, they go, oh yeah, I see your point, okay, fine, I trust it. But yeah, it's still nothing that comes up all the time, because we're an online school, right? We teach people online, people go, how could you possibly do that without being in person? It's like, you just gotta try it. It's actually...
Katie Cadwell: Speaking their language. Yeah. I don't know, we are.
Jack: Yeah, it works. No one's lonely. So look, this has been great catching up honestly, Katie, I don't know why called you Kate then, just slipped into like even more casual.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. That's my grown-up name.
Jack: Yeah, I suppose so. I don't really have one. It's just Jack. Maybe it's Jack with like a silent X in there somewhere. But yeah, Katie, like it's been great catching up genuinely. And like, I feel like these sorts of conversations are exactly why we're doing these things. You know, we don't know how this is going to end up. It could be a podcast series. It could be a blog. It could be anything.
Katie Cadwell: You
Jack: And we'll see, yeah, we're early in this. This is our infancy of Open Studio. We are talking about having in-person things, getting together, like visiting places, getting people into our studio and stuff like that. So that will be exciting if we start to do more of those. You for anyone that wants to find you and Lucky Dip, obviously, you've got your website, you've got the NDA podcast. Do you like it when people reach out to you on LinkedIn? Does that happen a lot?
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, nice. Yeah, don't mind LinkedIn, prefer an Insta DM, that feels more casual. LinkedIn is a bit more formal. But yeah, we love it. We love it all. And especially on NDA. I mean, we have a lot of back and forth with our listeners on NDA. So we're more chatty on there. On LinkedIn, I'll say, thanks, nice to connect with you. But yeah, it's a bit more of a, it's a bit more business, isn't it? And I prefer being a bit more casual.
Jack: Yes. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Kind Regards. Yes, cash is the way. Sorry, this is a question that might just give you pressure. Are we going to be expecting a new NDA series this year?
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, def. It's good timing because we've just started talking about the topics for season four. ⁓ So we'll definitely have one this year and we'd love to do some sort of live show maybe at the end of the season. ⁓ I'm feeling all like buoyed up and optimistic after off, I think. Like I've got unlimited time and resources, but I can say there'll definitely be another season this year for sure.
Jack: Yeah? Okay, you heard it here first. I'll hold you to that. and your 100 members of staff and your NDA podcast series that never came out because you got so busy with Lucky Dit. All right, well, Fab, I'll end the recording now.
Katie Cadwell: Hahaha. Yeah.
Jack: I actually accidentally put this in for an hour. I don't think we need a whole hour at all. I was hoping this would be like half an hour max because like who's got the attention span to listen to anything that's longer than 10 minutes anyway. that's so apologies for that. But yeah, so I'll kind of start off with like a little mini intro before we get into things which I'm sure you're going to absolutely love because I'm going to be singing your praises and
Katie Cadwell: Mm-mm. Yeah. Cool.
Jack: saying stuff about you that may or may not be true. ⁓ Katie Cadwell, ⁓ is a landscape gardener. But also then I sent over some examples of some questions, but I wasn't actually expecting you necessarily to prepare for them just so you have them.
Katie Cadwell: Ugh, so cringe. Yeah, no, I haven't, because I'm not very good if I prepare, so I'm better off off the cuff. So I read them, but yeah.
Jack: Yeah. and kind of conversational obviously like I guess like the questions just give you like a general gist of the theme but I guess we've got the benefit of having met before so like it's much easier just to flow and just see where it goes. I am gonna ask you about off festival as well because it'd interesting to get some hot takes and obviously if I ask you anything and you're just like I've got nothing on that it's fine because as you know
Katie Cadwell: Okay. Okay cool.
Jack: I even know why I'm telling you this, because you do your own podcast. yeah, just cutting room floor, sticking on the reels for laughs or whatever. don't know. All right. Are you ready? Let's do this. Here we go. I'm to switch into professional host mode. All righty. So welcome to Open Studio. I'm Jack Trotman, and with me today is Katie Cadwell.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, cutting room floor. Yeah, cool. Nice. Let's go for it.
Jack: co-founder, creative director of Lucky Dip. Hello. ⁓ So, it's been a little while. ⁓ I think, you know, last time I met you, we were just catching up and just talking about you when you were still quite early in founding Lucky Dip, I think. And, you know, it's great to see as the years go by how you're growing and how your presence is.
Katie Cadwell: Hello! Hi. Yeah. Yeah.
Jack: ⁓ getting shared in more places and you're showing up and all. I see you doing things like this all the time now, like talks and things like that. Has that been fun?
Katie Cadwell: It's so fun, but I hope that people don't think, ⁓ here she is again. So I, you know, I, but I really enjoy it. I just like chatting to people, but, if people click on and listen, then that's, then obviously they're still interested, but do, I do love it.
Jack: Yeah, so so lucky dip branding studio you talk about doing great work and having a good time doing it. I've always felt anytime I've spoken to you, I've always had a good time. It's always fun. I guess a bit about your background. You've worked at some really big names, right? You know, how and how Coto Design Studio Dixon Baxi. It's like tick, tick, tick. And like, I imagine there's probably a shelf of awards somewhere at home that you've kind of earned along the way. Why aren't they in your background?
Katie Cadwell: I got a couple, but no, because that's too much. There's nothing worse than someone dials in and they've got a shelf full of pencils behind them. It's like, come on. But I do have a couple, but they're next to the photos of my dog and my niece.
Jack: Yeah. ⁓ lovely. I've just got a pot of pencils on my desk to draw with. And obviously, of course, you're also the founder of the NDA podcast, which if people haven't listened to yet, actually probably just pause this, stop what you're doing and go and find that and listen to that instead, because it's the best podcast out there. ⁓ No, genuinely, like you talk about honest things, you talk about things that happening in design right now. And I think it's a it's a really, really great podcast if no one's heard a bit, but I'm sure probably all have. ⁓ So Katie, you're back from off festival in Barcelona. I it's been a couple of days. Hopefully you're feeling recovered. For those that don't know ⁓ what off festival is, I guess it's like the design world's answer to a school trip where everyone kind of just pretends to be there for the talks. But really it's probably about just hanging out. ⁓ Is that true? What actually happens there?
Katie Cadwell: Thank you. There was way more hanging out than I knew, because it was my first time going. And I was like ready, you my little notebook. And day two, I left my notebook at home and I just had my little plastic cup ready to go to the bar. But no, was a designer school trip is such a good way of putting it. It was brilliant. The talks I did see and the ones earlier on in the day are kind of easier to remember and recall. were fantastic and the setup was so good. But the best bit was just hanging out with loads of people that I don't get to see and all being in person. It was really, really fun. And I am just about recovered, but I can't, know, my stamina as I'm getting a little bit older, it's flagging.
Jack: Yeah, well, last time I was in Barcelona, it wasn't for off, was for primavera. And I got really into Martini Russell with like sparkling water. And that Oh, yeah, that's, think that combined with sun is just a recipe for disaster. But also, I had a great time. I had a really good time. And, you know,
Katie Cadwell: Yep.
Jack: Okay, so our festival, I've never been, I'm actually not really one for going to these big events because even though I sort of probably present myself as a bit of an extrovert at times, I actually get a bit overwhelmed in moments like that. I'm definitely way more of like a smaller group kind of thing. I've seen it from the outside and I see people raving about it, but I also see people being quite like skeptical of the whole thing. Like people being like...
Katie Cadwell: Mm. Yeah.
Jack: It's just an expensive way to stand in a room full of designers pretending to network and stuff like that. having been someone that's actually been to that and been to those talks, what was the most useful thing that you took away from it this time? What did you go back and put in your notebook after the drinks? On the plane home.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. you go back and put your headphones on after. Yeah, on the plane home. I think networking is a stretch, right? Because actually networking as a studio founder, you should be networking with clients. That's the kind of, you should be in a room where you can just grasp at sell, right? And make connections that are gonna bring projects in. But actually I found myself with lots of other small studio founders. So was hanging out with the guys from Studio Kiln.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: an Ambler and designed by Twist. And we were just sat talking about how was your year last year? You know, how big is your team right now? How are you scaling your team? Are you happy being remote? Are you making any money? Are you expensing this whole thing? We were even chatting about, you know, what's your Figma bill like at the moment? Cause ours is insane. So I think my main takeaway was actually now that I am a studio founder, I need to... create a community of people who I can have those types of conversations with. I'm very fortunate that I've got a co-founder. So I have daily support, ⁓ Hattie, and she's absolutely brilliant. But it was really, really nice to hear about other people's experiences. And that's not what I thought I would get from the experience at all. So I learned more, stood by the bar than I did sat watching the talks. But I enjoyed the talks as well. But yeah, it was... It was really beneficial. So I came back feeling quite ⁓ optimistic about being one of these newer, smaller studios and that there's quite a good crew of us trying to do things slightly differently from the big studios that we grew up in. Not better, not worse, just differently. So I felt quite, quite buoyed by that.
Jack: Yeah, I guess on your own terms, aren't you? And also, did you find that you were agreeing with everything all the other small studios were saying? Or did you actually feel confident that you've kind of found your own version of what it looks like? I guess that's the thing, because you see a lot of other people setting up their own studios, and there's probably a temptation to almost follow a formula, because it's like, it worked for them. They've got those kinds of clients.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, exactly.
Jack: I could do that, I could just do that. ⁓ You know, Lucky Dip, it's a great name by the way. Where did that come from? ⁓
Katie Cadwell: Thank you. That's Hattie's genius. That's all Hattie. Basically we had a few working names and we were kind of saying that my creative portfolio and her background, there's no through line. Like it doesn't really make sense. It's a bit of a mess all on one page. And we were like, oh, it's a bit like when you play Lucky Dip, like you get a prize every time, but you don't know what it's going to be. So we really liked that. And also we like...
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: working with lots of different types of people from different places. So we quite like it's kind of a metaphor for an amalgamation of things that make something that you want, essentially.
Jack: I mean, it's, it's, I think it's also probably it sets a tone, I would say as well. Like you see certain studios with certain names and there's some studios with names that have a maybe more serious way of being interpreted or something. think Lucky Dip just feels like it. I've not met Hattie yet, but just I'm assuming that Hattie matches and pairs with you perfectly. And I feel like you kind of get a sense of who you even got to work with before you even start to interact with them. And that is something not to be scorned at. Like you do branding, you got brand yourself right first, you nailed it. Yeah. ⁓
Katie Cadwell: ⁓ thank you.
Jack: Yeah, or I hope more people have been telling you that because they should. ⁓ OK, so what does an actual day look like then? I guess if you're still building the studio in some ways, how does that feel like from the inside?
Katie Cadwell: Mm. Yeah, good question. I mean, I think when you are kind of younger, so we were two last week, there is no set anything. Everything is kind of evolving and changing and adapting. We start every day with our dip in where we just, because we're fully remote at the moment, we meet up kind of like twice a month. ⁓ So it's just to make sure that everyone has spoken to somebody that day, you know, because sometimes everyone's busy and it's really important to make sure we have a chat. So we have our little dip in in the morning and everyone goes off on their tasks. I mean, we're, think we're doing a good job at working remotely and collaboratively. Every program we use, everyone's in. So you kind of see someone's cursor drive by and we're leaving comments. And so that's...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: That's how we kind of kick off. then yeah, every day looks really different, to be honest. Like if Hattie and I are in a kind of brand workshop or something, then we'll be out for a few hours and team are kind of working on bits. But yeah, there's no, there's no system. There's, there's no like every day looks just completely different. And I think that's quite nice from a creative point of view is you never really know what you're going to be working on next. So it keeps it kind of fresh. We've got lots of different projects in the studio, all in different areas, different clients. So it's, yeah, so like a pick and mix kind of with our dip ins and dip outs. They're the only things that stay the same.
Jack: It's all based on ⁓ different things you can get from the tuck shop, isn't it? Lucky Dip, Pick and Mix, Dip in. Yeah, so the chocolate digestive is obviously when it gets serious. So, yeah, before Lucky Dip, you'd spent, I guess, almost a decade in some of these really, really well-respected agencies before you went off and did this. And was there a defining moment?
Katie Cadwell: Pretty much. ⁓
Jack: where you just thought right I'm doing this or is that something that kind of happened over a progression of time I think for anyone that's maybe thinking about doing what you've done I imagine that leap of faith is quite difficult to do but how did that happen for you?
Katie Cadwell: Mm. I think I was always one of these people that thought I wanted my own studio. And I think there are some people who feel that way and some people that don't. as I, so my first agency, I worked at a brilliant studio called Supple Studio where I was the first employee. So was just my boss, Jamie and me. And then that team grew. So I saw how to run a studio and I saw all the inner workings and I saw the good bits and the bad bits and how difficult it is. but also how much fun we had. And then I had this itch to have the big studio experience, like that big agency moment. So that's when I made the leap, went out to design studio, ⁓ which was a completely different, just different. can't really compare the two agencies of that size. When I left design studio and I went freelance, I loved freelance so much. And I really didn't think it would suit me, but I just liked meeting loads of new people and I'm quite nosy, like seeing inside everyone's studios, different types of projects and the autonomy of being a freelancer. I probably could have stayed freelancing. ⁓ But I'd met Hattie while I was in design studio and we had talked on and off over a glass of wine on a Friday about, know, we could do that. I think we could do a really good job of this. ⁓ This might be a bit savage of me to say, but I'll say it because you me, I'm unfiltered. I was freelancing somewhere, unnamed, and I was working with a creative director who was a freelance creative director, or I think he might've even been a freelance ECD. I've just gendered him, I shouldn't have done that. And yeah, I mean, yeah, there are...
Jack: They're on to you. Don't talk about me like that. I can't believe you're talking about me.
Katie Cadwell: And I ⁓ just in this single experience I had with him, I thought I could do that. I think I could do that better than you're doing it. And that was, that was probably my like emotional turning point where I went, I think I could actually, because I, and it sounds, it's terrible really. have to see someone who you think is not doing a great job to believe that you could do a good job. sounds like the imposter, the opposite of imposter syndrome, right? But so the combination of Hattie being really ready to start the studio and me freelancing and thinking, I might have hit my roof here. Like, I'm not sure what else I'm gonna learn if I don't really think the people that I'm working with are, you know, exceptional, brilliant people. ⁓ So the combination of those two things, I don't mean that to sound cruel. I think that was just more the turning point in my confidence.
Jack: Hey. I think that's that that same moment of thinking that same kind of exchange is how I see education design education working out its best. Not when not when a teacher is doing a shit job, but actually when when a teacher is able to develop someone into someone who's a better designer than they could ever be or that they are. And so and you almost kind of want your students to reach a point where
Katie Cadwell: Mm.
Jack: they stop asking for permission or they stop asking like your opinion on something that they've actually just they've got it and it is kind of similar it's almost that push where you're like hmm yeah I I feel confident that I could do this because I feel like I can do this better than you which sounds kind of strange but it is a similar thing
Katie Cadwell: Mm. Yeah.
Jack: Yeah, I don't know. I feel like it is always going to be the case that if everything's rosy, it will just stay rosy, won't it? So probably most people leap into something after an experience that's just been a bit uncomfortable. It's like change. You know, why do we invent stuff? Because something's not working as well as it could. So it's the same mentality, isn't it?
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. Yes, that's true. That's true. Yeah.
Jack: I can't hear it, turn it up. ⁓ Yeah, I want to talk about freelance for a second though then, because obviously you've come from a freelance background more recently before you set up Lucky Dip. And now you're running Lucky Dip, co-running Lucky Dip. I am assuming like freelance is a part of your team on projects, right? I think I saw, ⁓ yeah, I saw a great video. I can't remember his name. It was really awesome. He's talking about motion principles. I was like this.
Katie Cadwell: Hmm. huge. ⁓ Max. Max Phillips, yeah.
Jack: Yeah, this guy's great. was like, he should be one of our teachers on our motion course because that's how we teach it. was like, he'd be brilliant. And he was funny, actually, might I say, which I think is a rare beast in design. But I imagine freelancers, obviously, they're part of your makeup, but... as I'm sure we agree on, they're not just a resource that you bring in when you're busy. I think for a studio like yours, it's also part of how you really build that culture as well as the output of the studio. How do you go about finding freelancers and what's the relationship like at the moment?
Katie Cadwell: massively. Do you know what's, when I first started, I wanted to just work with all the people that I had worked with and come into contact with during my career that I thought were brilliant. And some of those interactions were only a week long and I thought, they'd be brilliant. So that's sort of where we started from my own network, I guess. Then I became aware that there's this thing where agencies just recycle the same freelancers all the time. And if you're recycling the same talent. is kind of how I ended up going through like the top, the big four agencies while I was freelancing is you get in with one and then you get in with the next and the next. It means that they're a really safe way of hands and they're obviously brilliant, but then is all our work gonna start to look the same? So once we were a bit more comfortable, we just would see a cool bit of work and reach out and say, are you freelancing? And we've had mixed success because it...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: It's difficult to establish a really good relationship when you're all remote. We would find a freelancer that we loved and then try our very best to keep them, but we can't compete with a three month or a six month block booking that another studio can give these freelancers that level of security, which of course they want. That's how I freelanced. So we ended up working with people that we hadn't worked with before, which was really exciting. And I think that that's contributed to
Jack: Hmm.
Katie Cadwell: ⁓ the culture of the business and also how our work has carried on feeling so diverse. We have our faves, of course, ⁓ like Max is a legend and we have people that we have in time and time again. But every time we have a new brief, like copywriting is a really good example. We don't tend to have the same copywriters come in ⁓ because every copywriter writes in a slightly different ways, thinks really, really fun to have a different kind of copywriter for a different style of project. So it's, there's, don't get me wrong, it's work to find the right freelancers, establish the right relationship, but when it works, it's so, it's so cool. And I don't know how many freelancers we've had in since we've started, but a lot. So there are dippers. I mean, how much more can you milk a studio name, but we do call them our dippers.
Jack: I yeah, but once again, but once again, it just feels right, you know, it just feels good. You know, you know, on one of the dippers, it actually sounds like a, is there like a basketball team or something? I don't know, it feels like you're part of a team. I think that's what's important. You don't just feel like this isolated person that's kind of a mercenary. It's like, do the work, see you later. I'll probably won't credit you for it, but thanks, bye. It's so important. So
Katie Cadwell: Yeah.
Jack: interesting backstory. think we maybe talked about this before. think Hattie knows my best mate John, who's a film director, filmmaker, and we, John and I used to live together. And he has, I think he's got two different Instagram accounts, or at least he has like a professional Instagram account, which would just be like where he'd put up his like...
Katie Cadwell: Yes.
Jack: amazing shots and photographs and what to try and get work. And one night we were all like singing around the piano having a laugh like just as we always did. Because we used to be a place where bands would come and stay over. ⁓ I won't bore you with a long story of why, but it was just good fun. And so we had all these people around singing whatever.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah.
Jack: He filmed it and then he put it on his Instagram story because we were probably a bit drunk as well and I think he put it on the wrong one or something like that. Next day he was like, oh I've shared that on my professional account. Oh no. But then literally like a couple of days later someone was like, I'm looking for someone on a job. like, it's next week. Are you available? He's like, yeah, sure. Goes to the job. And he just said like out of interest, like what was the thing that made you think that I could do this? It was a
Katie Cadwell: You
Jack: It was a really good project. And they were like, well, you know what? That just video of you guys just having a laugh just made me think I want to work with you. He was like, ⁓ And then it just changed his whole perspective of what do people want from a freelancer.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah.
Jack: it does feel like a human. like I'm going to work with you for a couple of months. Especially in film, you're going on location and you're off in Norway somewhere, staying in a cabin together. But have you got any advice for a freelancer of ways in which they can not just network or whatever, but how would you...
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. Yeah.
Jack: come across someone, will it be specific to a job or will you just be kind of constantly looking and saving people for future and what could people do that would help them potentially stand out?
Katie Cadwell: I, I, this is quite like a boring answer probably, but I do think a lot of it comes down to availability. And maybe that's our experience of running a small studio. I'm not sure, but sometimes we won't know we need a freelancer until two months before, ⁓ sorry, two weeks before. ⁓ and then it does become a little bit about who can we get and who's available. So I love when freelancers check in quite consistently once a month.
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: just to let you know, I'm free from here to here. This is my day rate. Here's a reminder of my portfolio. That's perfect for me. And I will literally sometimes type freelancer into the search bar of my emails. Like, because it's, we're still working quite reactively, I guess, at times. So it's about just making it actually really easy to see that you're there and you're available. So.
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: Like I said, kind of a boring answer, but so many people send their portfolios over and don't say when they're available and don't say what their day rate or their level is. And then that's like, well, there's a whole exchange then that has to happen. Whereas if you give me all of that information upfront, and I know I've got something in three weeks, I'm like, okay, cool. Let's jump on a call and I can chat to you about that specific project. Cause I know we can afford it in the budget. And I know you've got the experience and I know that you're free.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah, that's so you're right. But I think the boring answer, the more straightforward thing is good because then it's like, ⁓ I can do that. Just remind myself to do that every time. It's practical. Yeah. Has anyone that's worked with you freelance become something more permanent as a result of that? Or are we not there yet in that sense?
Katie Cadwell: It's practical. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's a good question. We haven't hired any of our freelancers as PIRM staff. We've taken on two people really recently, but we haven't. And I think on the whole, the freelancers that we work with are really happy freelancing. so, yeah, so I've never even kind of offered, because I just sort of assume that everyone's really happy and I know that they're busy and I know that they've got loads of work and... we'll always have, we'll always need freelancers. So it's not like the work with us is gonna dry up. But I do know a few studios that have junior freelancers in as a kind of test of whether they want to hire them. But yeah, we haven't done it that way.
Jack: Yeah, I guess it's almost like an internship or an apprenticeship, isn't it? Yeah, and they're actually probably testing out that studio just as much as the studio is testing them out. So you've just recently brought two people on. I imagine when you're starting out at this stage. Is that right? Sorry, you brought on, I think we've got a slight lag going on now, but is that, can you?
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, so we've
Jack: How delayed am I? I don't know. Okay. All right, cool. ⁓ So yeah, so you mentioned that you've got two people now working with you full time. Yes. ⁓
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, yeah, yeah, all good. No, no, not that delayed, you're fine. Yeah, so we took on a full time midway designer and then we've taken on a junior designer on ⁓ a contract. But yeah, so two slightly more permanent dippers.
Jack: more permanent dippers. When I worked once in a studio, we had a chart of biscuits. and it was based on, I think I need to recreate this chart, it was based on how long you could dip it in a cup of tea for. So we just spent like weeks and weeks and weeks of like buying all the different types of biscuits and then like we'd test them in the same conditions, made a big chart. I think it was our way, bear in mind this was in like, I don't know, 2014 or something, but this was our way of being like, this would be cool, like clients will like this sort of thing. I think in the end it just became like... some sort of naval gazing experiment. I can, that was, you know, again, again, with dipping with being a permanent dipper. I think I need to do the test again, because we could figure out what's the permanent biscuit, biscuit of choice, if you forget that you're dipping it. So, so you've got two permanent members, two people you just brought on. And I imagine at this point in time, like
Katie Cadwell: You you
Jack: If you were a huge agency bringing people on, you're probably still like really thinking about fit and all those sorts of things. But when it's just a few of you working together day to day, you can't stress enough how important the right person is to help you build the culture, to help you feel confident that you can go to Barcelona for a few days and everything's still happening, right?
Katie Cadwell: Yep. Yep.
Jack: when you're looking for those like people what were you really looking for like you can be totally honest like was it was it was it the work or was it more than that
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. I think we were trying really hard to look at the work alone because I don't believe that hiring for a culture fit is a good idea or that leads to good diverse teams because what I might think is a culture fit might lead my team to look a certain way. So we weren't hiring for a cultural fit.
Jack: Yes.
Katie Cadwell: A, because we don't know what our culture really is yet, still is a moving, evolving, changing beast. And because I don't want to hire people that work like me, that's kind of pointless. I want people that work differently to me, think differently to me. want the work to be just to come from different points of view. So we looked at the work, we were looking at the work primarily. And then only in the kind of...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: Third, we did a few rounds of interviews, but only in that last round did we ask ourselves the question, how would we feel working with this person day in, day out? But we tried really hard to reserve that question until quite late on in the process.
Jack: Yeah, I suppose when you're presenting Lucky Dip to new clients, that mantra of kind of... I think it was that I did great work, but having a good time doing it, there must have been a part of that idea of like, who can I imagine my clients enjoying working with that must have had something to do with. So maybe that, yeah, as you say, that maybe that's not what we call cultural fit, because I agree that can just form these bubbles of sameness. ⁓ But there must be something in that, like you're probably thinking about who they might, who you're going to put them in front of, right? In some ways.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. Yeah, and we want people that are optimistic, I think is a really big one for Hattie and I because the whole ethos of the studio is built around optimism and trying to enjoy our work and look after ourselves and make brilliant creative. So they needed to be optimistic people, that was a given, because if you have one pessimistic person in the team, it very quickly brings everyone else down. It's like a sponge, right?
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: So optimism was probably the number one thing we were looking for. And then also an aspiration to grow and to learn and evolve. I don't think I'm a finished product. Hattie doesn't think she's a finished product. The studio certainly isn't one. So we were looking for people who were excited to grow personally and excited to help us shape the studio. And we didn't want that to come off as, know, you could do whatever you want and you can... You can make the studio whatever you want it to be, because it's not that, but it's more like a collaboration of the team to tweak and move us and alter our path. So I guess I probably needed, we were probably also looking for someone that had that kind of confidence and the passion. So that, think that's, I mean, it's a difficult thing to try and quantify, isn't it? Cause you're sat in front of a real person and you...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: It feels awful that you're judging them, I suppose they're the kind of qualities that we kept coming back down to while we were choosing.
Jack: in the application process that I guess on the one hand I could ask you about what makes a good portfolio a good portfolio but that's so subjective in many ways isn't it? But I suppose... broader than that, like what makes a good application a good application because that's inclusive of a portfolio but what else is there like what have you experienced from being on the hiring side that's taught you a few things about how you might you know approach this if you were to do it again like what would be some good advice for anyone that's applying right now simple things I guess you know could it be boring tips again even you know
Katie Cadwell: Hmm. Thank Yeah. I've got so, I've got so many boring tips. ⁓ the first thing I would say is read the job description. You know, we were looking for juniors and mids and if you're a senior or a DD, this is not the role for you. And you've wasted a bit of your time and you've wasted a bit of our time. if we've asked you to put job application in the subject line, put job application in the subject line, because for all, you know, we've got a filter set up. and anything that is outside of the questions that we like, the task that we gave you might not even hit the right inbox. And to just make your email sound like you in a succinct way. We had 800 applications in the first week of posting our job ad, which I never expected.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: Um, that amount. we closed the applications because I wanted to be able to review them all. And it was getting to a point where I wouldn't be able to. And I would say 10, 15 % of those applications hadn't read the job ad. They, we'd asked for a UK visa. Um, we'd asked for a few things so that there was like a portion that hadn't done that. And then we probably had 10, another 10, 15 % who had the exact same email.
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: And I mean word for word, the exact same email. So it's obvious that they've taken the job ad, put it through chat. I don't mind that if you're a junior and you're nervous to write your first email, but I get no character. get no understanding of who you are. And it was really difficult not to just discount those because I was like, it feels lazy. Perhaps it's more fear of writing that email and in that professional setting. But that was disheartening every time I opened an email and I was like, oh, it's the same four lines again.
Jack: like, it'd be, you know what, because it's obviously easy for easy, because we had a similar thing where we were, we had job applications out there and yeah, chat GPT, chat GPT, you tell, you could tell. But having said that, you know, I got frustrated at first just thinking, you know, ⁓ I just want you to talk to me. directly, yeah, just if you've got something to say, just like, you know, it's okay if it's spelled wrong, whatever. But then I thought a lot about kind of what's happening on LinkedIn, right? And, you know, not to piss anyone off, but there's some huge names out there. And there so many designers out there that are just putting this like chat GPT hot takes every single day, people that I really respect. And I'm like,
Katie Cadwell: Mm.
Jack: or if you're going to go out on social media and all of the content you're putting out there is formed through AI, then I guess like what sort of like what precedent are you setting? Like what do you expect when then people come at you with AI generated stuff again and again and again? So, you know.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. Yeah. And I, and I get, I get it if I kind of get it for the, why people would do it maybe for the bigger studios. Like we're talking about designers that might have sent 20 job applications, right. That week. But you could tell our job ad wasn't written by AI and it would take you no time at all to do research, to understand that we're a really small studio. ⁓ so you would hope that they would know that someone personally would be reviewing that job application.
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: I've since found out that's not a given at all that someone will be reviewing your job application. I just thought that was the norm, but there are a lot of people running them all through AI themselves. So I get it. That's what I mean. It's kind of a weird one, but for me personally, it really cast kind of an odd light on those applicants.
Jack: Yeah. Yeah, did anyone do anything surprising? ⁓ Did you receive anything? Yeah, that was nice. Yes.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, we had, we had some posts, old school, someone sent some posts. We had a couple of people who styled up their CVs and portfolios in the Lucky Dip brand, which I thought was a really, really nice touch. We had people who had clearly made portfolios specifically for us, people who had emailed saying that they liked this episode of the podcast and clearly done a lot of research. So they were...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: someone who did a custom like comic book, anime illustration. So there were people that really did go to a lot of effort and that they stuck out so much in the kind of realm of people that clearly hadn't put much effort in.
Jack: Amazing. Yeah and it's I think I I've met I met up with a few Shillington graduates on Monday night actually and one of them was asking me some advice of of this and they were like there's a job out there at studio I really want to work at but I'm too scared to apply I was like why it's like because you know you apply and I bet a thousand thousand other people have applied I was like okay fair enough but how about you just like call them up and go and visit them and they were like really? Well, you've got nothing to lose, you know, or maybe if there's another studio also hiring that you don't want to work at, go and try that there and have a chance to maybe have an awkward exchange and go, okay, how can I do that better next time? And the amount of people that just don't see the, it's an opportunity, isn't it? Like how to stand out and there is there are ways of standing out and
Katie Cadwell: Mm.
Jack: now more than ever getting a lovely little thing in the post or being sent a bespoke thing can make a huge impact. Hopefully those people then kind of stay in your on your radar I suppose like in many ways. Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: 100%. Yeah, anyone who went to additional effort, I also made sure to say in the email, like, this really stood out and thank you so much. And I've got a long list of people I want to freelance with now off the back of going through that process.
Jack: Yeah, I think you're a really interesting moment as a studio now because obviously as said two years in every hire is going to matter, like every person you bring on is going to really matter. For both of you, are you thinking... one year, two years, three years, how far ahead are you starting to think now that you've sort of got through that second year? Like what is the vision now?
Katie Cadwell: You Yeah. What a good question. I think we used to think like two hours ahead and then it went 24 hours ahead and then you're a week ahead. We talk a lot about, cause we are at this kind of moment of scale, I suppose. I feel nervous to say the word scale, but we are growing. We want to do that very slowly, very intentionally and only if it's right for us. I think we, we...
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: We kind of said, we liked the idea of a team of seven, eight, nine, no more than 10. Neither of us have, we don't want multiple studios across the world filled with hundreds of people. ⁓ We just want a really good core team in one studio. So we've talked about that in a loose sense. Actually coming back from off, I did say to Hattie, I went to a talk, ⁓ Nils Leonard spoke and
Jack: Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: He was saying that you need almost to have like this manifestation list for your business. And we did one when we first started and we haven't done it again since. So I think now we're at a good moment where we could do with refreshing, like what does success look like for you? What does it look like for me? What does it look like for the studio? See how we're tracking on what we set out when we first started. So yeah, we talk. We do talk further ahead than we have done, but I think being a small studio in this climate, there's a nervousness to talk too far ahead and kind of get ahead of yourself. But yeah, so no more than 10 people though. That's kind of the, that's sort of the rough plan at the moment. You can quote me on that in a few years time.
Jack: And where would it, yeah, when there's like a photo of Yee-Tee standing in front of like 100 people, like all up the stairs of this like massive New York flashy studio, where would your studio, yeah, ⁓ yeah, you're like sitting on a giant pencil. Where would the studio be then? Like where are you happy being online? You know the word remote?
Katie Cadwell: All the pencils behind us.
Jack: I'm starting to get quite annoyed by that word only because it makes me feel like and when I drill into the semantics of it a bit it's like it just feels like remote disconnected.
Katie Cadwell: Mm. Yeah.
Jack: I feel like we need to come up with, I feel like, you know, if anyone was going to come up with a better phrase for it, it would be you. I'm sure you'll find a way of like linking it into your brand. If you do like, please tell me if you want to workshop one now, I'm happy to, but are you happy staying in this remote kind of working way, which obviously is probably works well with freelancers because you can get people from all over the world. Or are you looking to kind of have a fixed place or have some kind of physical presence?
Katie Cadwell: Mm. You It honestly, it's such a good question. And we kind of jumped back and forward between yes and no all the time. I think as we were hiring, we were kind of interested to see where our talent would come from. And if we hired someone from Cornwall and someone from Scotland, then you're like, cool, decision made. As it turns out, they're all pretty London based or close to London. Hattie's in London. I'm the outlier. I'm down in Devon.
Jack: Yeah, interesting. Mm.
Katie Cadwell: I, there's, there's something, so I don't mind remote because I live in quite a remote location. So maybe that's why it feels like it, suits me. I'm like the satellite. ⁓ but I love, I love the idea of having a physical space. I do think that that will be dictated depending on the team that we build. There will be people that remote working suits them really well. And there will be people where remote working doesn't suit them well and we still really want to work with them. So it's kind of open.
Jack: Yeah. you Hmm.
Katie Cadwell: It's a pretty open topic between Hattie and I at the moment. And we don't mind that we don't necessarily have an answer or a resolution to it because she might want to move. You you can't imagine we all, I wouldn't move back up to London, but hypothetically, we moved up to London, got a studio, then one team member moves to Leeds, Hattie decides she wants to live in Brighton. You know, like there's so many moving parts, so ⁓ inconclusive, but.
Jack: Yeah. No, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Katie Cadwell: happy for now, but very aware that it's a setup that needs constant kind of questioning and nurturing.
Jack: When I speak to anyone about, so we've got two studios, we've got one in Manchester and one in London and ⁓ I live in Matlock, I live in the Peak District. I go to Manchester like a few times a week, I was in London earlier this week as well. You know, make it work when you want to see people to spend time together but when anyone's kind of like, ⁓ you know, but you need to all be in the same place, know, how can you trust that people are doing the right thing? I just remind people of, it's always a very specific type of person as well that says that. I always remind people of like the Victorian era. I'm like, think about, well, they had studies in their house and they would work in their study. There was a room called a study, right? That's where you did your work. And then you'd go off and like meet people in a, I don't know, a gentleman's club, whatever. it's, and because when you say that, of course, that's like speaking. the people who are saying these things are like, oh, gentlemen's cup, yes, I'm a member of the one of those as well. Yeah, you're like, ah, let's see eye to eye on this. I think it's so, when you just remind them of that, they go, oh yeah, I see your point, okay, fine, I trust it. But yeah, it's still nothing that comes up all the time, because we're an online school, right? We teach people online, people go, how could you possibly do that without being in person? It's like, you just gotta try it. It's actually...
Katie Cadwell: Speaking their language. Yeah. I don't know, we are.
Jack: Yeah, it works. No one's lonely. So look, this has been great catching up honestly, Katie, I don't know why called you Kate then, just slipped into like even more casual.
Katie Cadwell: Yeah. That's my grown-up name.
Jack: Yeah, I suppose so. I don't really have one. It's just Jack. Maybe it's Jack with like a silent X in there somewhere. But yeah, Katie, like it's been great catching up genuinely. And like, I feel like these sorts of conversations are exactly why we're doing these things. You know, we don't know how this is going to end up. It could be a podcast series. It could be a blog. It could be anything.
Katie Cadwell: You
Jack: And we'll see, yeah, we're early in this. This is our infancy of Open Studio. We are talking about having in-person things, getting together, like visiting places, getting people into our studio and stuff like that. So that will be exciting if we start to do more of those. You for anyone that wants to find you and Lucky Dip, obviously, you've got your website, you've got the NDA podcast. Do you like it when people reach out to you on LinkedIn? Does that happen a lot?
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, nice. Yeah, don't mind LinkedIn, prefer an Insta DM, that feels more casual. LinkedIn is a bit more formal. But yeah, we love it. We love it all. And especially on NDA. I mean, we have a lot of back and forth with our listeners on NDA. So we're more chatty on there. On LinkedIn, I'll say, thanks, nice to connect with you. But yeah, it's a bit more of a, it's a bit more business, isn't it? And I prefer being a bit more casual.
Jack: Yes. Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Kind Regards. Yes, cash is the way. Sorry, this is a question that might just give you pressure. Are we going to be expecting a new NDA series this year?
Katie Cadwell: Yeah, def. It's good timing because we've just started talking about the topics for season four. ⁓ So we'll definitely have one this year and we'd love to do some sort of live show maybe at the end of the season. ⁓ I'm feeling all like buoyed up and optimistic after off, I think. Like I've got unlimited time and resources, but I can say there'll definitely be another season this year for sure.
Jack: Yeah? Okay, you heard it here first. I'll hold you to that. and your 100 members of staff and your NDA podcast series that never came out because you got so busy with Lucky Dit. All right, well, Fab, I'll end the recording now.
Katie Cadwell: Hahaha. Yeah.
