Guilty or Framed? Inside the Lucy Letby Documentary

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Evening welcome back to night shift darkness diagnosed with your hosts laurie.
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And julie julie and lulie no julia gulia i want to rhyme our names now because of the last episode,
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gary gary larry yeah i think julian lulie sounds good yeah lulie lulie.
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Bling bling you forgot your bling bling what was that from the hot chick i think,
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oh my god that was a really funny movie such a good movie you forgot your bling bling,
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so i already know what laurie's talking about this
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week because we kind of talked about it briefly because
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i was the one that told her to hurry up
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and run to netflix and watch this
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documentary and this nurse and I
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wanted to know her thoughts and so she loved
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it so much and I ran and immediately put it on
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Netflix now she wants to talk about it and
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I can't wait to talk
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about this documentary I think her angle on this
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is interesting I don't know too much she just kind
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of just gave me a rough idea of what she was going to be talking about um
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so I'm gonna let her take
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over yeah so yeah
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so like julie said she had asked if
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i had watched this documentary on you know on this nurse lucy let me and i was
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like no but i'll check it out and didn't think that i'd be interested in doing
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a story on it per se because we've already done a story on a nurse killer Charles,
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good old Charles Cullen.
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Serial killer So anyway, I didn't know what to expect watching this and as I'm watching it,
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The whole time, I'm thinking, this seems strange. It doesn't seem like there's
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a lot of evidence necessarily to point to her, except for just circumstantial stuff.
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And also, I'm thinking, oh, well, it's a documentary.
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They're probably just showing not the whole case or the evidence to support
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that she's this awful baby killer for people who haven't watched it.
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So it's about this neonatal nurse, Lucy Lettie.
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She was born on January 4th in 1990. So yeah, British former neonatal nurse.
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She was convicted of murdering seven infants and attempting to murder seven
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others at the Countess of Chester Hospital between June 2015 and June 2016.
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She came under investigation after an unusual cluster of deaths and collapses.
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In the hospital's neonatal unit, three years after she began working there.
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So she was charged in November of 2020, seven counts of murder and 15 counts
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of attempted murder relating to 17 babies, I believe.
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So she was prosecuted on the basis of her presence during many of the incidents.
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Two abnormal blood test results and skin discoloration interpreted as signs
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of insulin poisoning and ear embolism.
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These two factors they
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alleged some inconsistencies in the
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medical records also her removal of
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nursing handover sheets from the hospital
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so that would be like her report sheets and handwritten notes that the prosecution
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characterized as a confession in august of 2023 she was found guilty of the
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seven counts of murder and attempted murder She was acquitted on two counts of attempted murder,
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and the jury was unable to reach verdicts on six further counts.
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So she received a life sentence for this.
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So senior management at the Countess of Chester Hospital were criticized for
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failing to act on clinicians' concerns, prompting the British government to
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commission an independent statutory inquiry.
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Which began hearings in September of 2024. The police examined additional cases,
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but the Crown Prosecution Service declined to bring further charges.
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Following the lifting of reporting restrictions,
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several medical and statistical experts have challenged the prosecution's interpretation
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of the clinical and numerical evidence, arguing that the infant's deteriorations
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were consistent with natural causes.
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Two applications for permission to appeal have been refused by the Court of
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Appeal, and the Criminal Cases Review Commission is considering an application
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to refer the case back to the court.
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So that just kind of concisely, I think, explains what you watch over the series
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of the documentary itself.
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So it ends, the ending of the documentary basically shows that, hmm,
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there's maybe some evidence that actually does not support or make Lucy seem
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to be, like she could be responsible.
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I find it really hilarious that the medical
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expert that they use he
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used another doctor's research and
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literature to basically help
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convict lucy now the doctor who wrote this research article now she wrote this
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like wasn't it like back in the 80s or 90s or something like that we we know
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most scientific research or most articles,
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if you're going to reference them or use them,
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they have to be done within the last five years to be truly credible.
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So what's really funny is, and as I'm watching the documentary.
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The medical expert that was used, his name was Dr.
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Dewey Evans, and he's describing the.
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Kind of how he he's like yeah I read this
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research article or whatever and
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yep that's what I'm gonna go with and it's like how how are
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you an expert then it's not even your own research and
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right you usually have to do your own especially with something that
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was conducted back in the 80s right
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90s whatever I found that really odd in real
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time as I'm watching the documentary thinking this has
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to be a joke this guy can't be the expert medical like
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that they need to have or the defense
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like what was lucy's defense team why did they not call in their own i know
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that was frustrating to me i found that really really strange and really not
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like that was i think poor defense for lucy and then you just have this guy
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up there who's like yeah i'm I'm a doctor and I'm classified as an expert.
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And I just found, I basically Googled some research, you know what I mean?
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That's what it seemed like.
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So the doctor's research, his name was Dr. Shu Lee.
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And he gets on and I just like, love this guy.
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Like he's like, let me see if this doctor interpreted my findings correctly,
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because there's also that too.
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You're reading literature and you're reading research.
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Yeah. And then you're going to interpret that and again, present it as evidence.
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So, and like you had pointed out, this is old, like this is old data.
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And this Dr. Shuli, I mean, he's been retired. I think he lives in Canada.
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He's like working on a farm or something like that.
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But he's looking at the case and immediately is like, no, the guy used it incorrectly.
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The rash that he's trying to say is consistent with air embolism or insulin overdose.
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He said it's not even the same rash that he's identified in his research.
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So he kind of took it upon himself to get like a commission of people together
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to try to get this conviction.
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Did their own like independent research. Yeah. Like on the.
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The victims like the infants that that
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died and to just get other medical opinions
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on their cause of death i just think it's cool that he's doing this i think
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he's doing a kind of pro bono too like he's i mean he's retired so he wants
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to back up his work he doesn't want some schmuck coming in and right you can't
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reference someone it's not so embarrassing i don't know i mean i you do we do it all the time.
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I mean, I use reference articles all the time, but you really have to be careful,
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when you're quoting someone's work.
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It has to be pretty identical to what they're actually saying.
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There's room for interpretation, but that's where you... And it's like Dr.
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Dewey is like, I stand by my clinical expertise. And it's like,
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how do you stand by it when the man himself, Dr.
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Shuli, is saying, dude, you're wrong. You used
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my interpretation you used my research and i am telling you you're wrong and
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then in one sitting or whatever it is dr dewey is saying he agreed with some
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things that maybe this guy found in his research back in the 80s and he wanted
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to conduct his own and come up with his own theories.
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Fine but doesn't sound like he did that it sounds like he had his own theories
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made up in his brain and was looking for other evidence to kind of coincide
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with what his thoughts were.
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And I'm sorry, but you're going to find evidence where if you're actively looking
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for it, you know, like you're not doing unbiased research.
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Right. You're doing biased research because you are actually looking for a criminal
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act that was committed on these infants.
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I know. And this happens a lot.
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I think just in a hospital setting in general. And nurses, you're...
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Wait, what happens a lot? We don't kill... No, no, no. I just mean...
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It doesn't happen a lot where nurses are serial. No, no, no, no.
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I just mean... And again, we did talk similarly with the Charles Cullen case,
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where you're working as a nurse and deaths happen.
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You're a neonatal nurse. It's basically the, it's a NICU, it's an ICU for newborn babies.
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And they're critical. I don't care.
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The fragility of their life is obviously higher than if you were just working
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on a regular medical unit.
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And one of the AI generated women. Oh my God, that was weird.
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I was talking about her experience. You say AI generated woman.
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If you watch the documentary, usually documentaries have
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like real life witnesses or what do you call them
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real life interviews yeah with the victim's
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family or whatever but they instead
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of doing that they utilized an
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ai generated basically a fake person yeah and i'm sure obviously the testimony
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is similar to i would hope i mean i would hope right but so this it's a little
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phony looking it's definitely phony looking but let's just for the purposes of discussing it,
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that one of the mothers of one of the babies who had passed in Lucy's care, let's just say,
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she was saying how she just didn't understand and how reports back to her were
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that the baby's improving, the baby is stable, the baby is blah, blah, blah.
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Those, that's, I can understand why her perception obviously would think like.
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There's no risk of my child going the other way. But here's the thing.
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If your baby was stable and your baby was better, the baby would not require
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a stay in the NICU, right?
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So I don't know if... Well, you can still be stable, but critical.
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Right. But we shouldn't use words like stable, though. We have to stay very objective.
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And I think that's where, again, nurses, healthcare workers,
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clinicians, I think they can get themselves in some legal issues potentially
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by using, again, words like that. Oh, they're fine.
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They seem okay. Oh yeah, they're okay. They're doing well.
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They're doing great. And it's like great based on what? What's the baseline?
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Great based on, okay, so yesterday they were.
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Almost dead and today there's a slight improvement. So it's like,
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what are you doing there?
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And I think obviously when you're reporting back to the mother or the family,
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you do use terms like that or you can't get too clinical, but you,
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as a nurse, you know, you're not documenting,
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you're not documenting like that. You're documenting objectively.
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So if you're going to make a statement in your note, that patient appears to
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have improved overnight, you got to back it up back it up with something something
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yeah evidence improved you can't as evidenced by,
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maybe a list of their recent vital signs maybe their
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glucose level stabilized overnight maybe they tolerated their feeds overnight
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maybe they didn't have any episodes of i mean i don't know i don't know what
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this like apne behaviors or whatever i don't know what the baby was like right
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i don't know what their situation was but they didn't have any respiratory issues or,
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respiratory compromise or I don't know.
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But that's where you document objectively.
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And when you're reporting back
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to a family member, you're not going to be like, well, you know, X, Y, Z.
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But also you're not going to be like, well, you know, anything can happen.
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So, you know, you're not going to be like, I don't know. Don't get your hopes up.
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Like, you know, you're going to be. That is one of the things that I absolutely,
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I do, I dislike about being a nurse is actually.
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Having to give a report or an update to family members. I always think it's the doctor's job.
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I don't like interpreting the doctor's notes. I don't like interpreting even
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like the social worker's notes.
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I don't like interpreting and giving my advice, basically, or my opinion on
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how their family member is doing, because it is, it's based on what I am,
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I'm reading and I'm interpreting.
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And I try to emphasize that.
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I always say, well, based on, based on what the doctor wrote and based on what
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the social worker wrote, this is what, this is how. Oh, you don't want to be like Dr.
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Dewey and get up on the stand and use, and then stand by that? No, no.
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You don't Very, I think just comes from years and years of nursing and just
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knowing that not being objective can get you in trouble. Absolutely.
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And patients, even patients themselves, love to throw you under the bus.
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They love to use your words. They love to, oh, the nurse said this or the nurse said that.
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So let's get a little deeper into that aspect. Throughout the documentary,
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I don't know if he was considered the medical director.
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I mean, this is all in the UK. Okay, so like some of the language that they use, I'm like.
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Collapses. Collapses. Collapses. We had a couple collapses in the NICU.
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They speak so properly that it makes me feel.
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Which I assume collapses means like in our world, like codes.
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Codes, it must be. But they use, I love like cardiac arrest.
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They're like, oh, like babies, collapse. Like this is the most collapses we've had.
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So they interview this other doctor and I actually forget his name. I think it's like Dr.
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Ravi or something like that, but he seems like a.
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Narcissistic kind of weirdo, but either way, we don't judge.
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We don't want judging, but I'm looking at it from maybe his point of view,
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what his job is in the hospital and what that means.
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And when the police come knocking, okay, and they're looking for evidence,
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who do you think they're talking to first? They're starting at the top, right?
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So whether it's the director, the medical director or the hospital administrator or something like that,
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do you think they're first going to release anything to the police that suggests that they're liable?
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They're doing practices that are unsafe or like the police just want or just
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looking for whatever the hospital will give them, right?
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So you have like a risk management team, you have, and they're going to be a
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little bit subjective, I think, and what information they're going to give.
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And I just find it strange that their immediate thing to do was to look at the nurse or nurses.
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And to me, I just feel like that's kind of deflecting blame.
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They're not doing a root cause analysis.
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They're let's be honest.
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Hospital administrators, they're not going to just, they'd be at a tremendous
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amount of risk for maybe shutting down or getting sued or whatever it is.
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And no, they need to stay open.
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So I'm not saying that that's what this hospital did, the Countess of Chester Hospital.
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I'm not saying that's what they did, but.
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I just find it really strange that this Dr. Ravi, he kind of contradicts himself
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in what he is saying, I think, when he's just like, well, yeah,
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we didn't just want to blame a nurse.
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And we didn't want to think that Lucy, because by all accounts,
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she seemed very, very competent and seemed to know how to do her job well.
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So, yeah, I mean, we really weren't angling to just point the finger or put
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the blame on her when it's like, that's the only evidence you kind of released.
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You gave a staffing, basically a staffing pattern, and you highlighted,
00:19:25.217 --> 00:19:26.997
which to me, that's very visual.
00:19:27.237 --> 00:19:30.417
That's very visual. And I was actually looking at it on the documentary going,
00:19:30.617 --> 00:19:39.437
how do you know that they didn't just highlight because it will avert your eyes to just that section.
00:19:39.597 --> 00:19:42.877
Right. But I saw other exes like other where hospital staff were.
00:19:43.017 --> 00:19:48.817
And I'm like, that was the only commonality they found was that she happened to be there.
00:19:49.777 --> 00:19:55.997
She was the only nurse that was present. Yes. At all of those collapses.
00:19:57.497 --> 00:20:00.177
And I think initially that doctor that
00:20:00.177 --> 00:20:03.157
you're talking about of course if you're running or
00:20:03.157 --> 00:20:06.157
you're ahead of that department and you're noticing all
00:20:06.157 --> 00:20:10.037
of these suspicious deaths yeah you're probably going to self-reflect a little
00:20:10.037 --> 00:20:14.337
bit and be like what is happening like not under my watch I think you notice
00:20:14.337 --> 00:20:19.417
how they didn't do anything though because he's thinking well it's not me do
00:20:19.417 --> 00:20:24.457
you know what I'm saying so he's gonna look he's looking right but are you reviewing your processed?
00:20:24.617 --> 00:20:28.297
Like as a hospital administrator or risk manager, you should be looking at...
00:20:28.297 --> 00:20:31.057
I'm telling you, they thought that these deaths were suspicious.
00:20:31.317 --> 00:20:36.557
Yeah, but after one, two, three deaths, let's just say, why are you not reviewing...
00:20:37.274 --> 00:20:40.094
Your your process why are you not like as a as
00:20:40.094 --> 00:20:42.894
a manager as well anyone who's in a
00:20:42.894 --> 00:20:46.294
position of you have to review these things like what are our policies what
00:20:46.294 --> 00:20:50.314
are our working conditions it just seems like they didn't really look into it
00:20:50.314 --> 00:20:56.494
until all of a sudden it's like huh we've had 13 deaths in the span of a year
00:20:56.494 --> 00:21:01.594
or whatever it was and that seems a little suspicious I don't know.
00:21:01.694 --> 00:21:02.774
Maybe we should look into it.
00:21:03.294 --> 00:21:06.254
And to me, it's like, no, like if you're doing.
00:21:07.294 --> 00:21:13.554
Proper risk management and you have proper policies and procedures and things
00:21:13.554 --> 00:21:17.154
like that, where you're constantly reviewing this stuff or you shouldn't be.
00:21:17.194 --> 00:21:18.614
I think that's a part of the documentary.
00:21:18.834 --> 00:21:22.594
You might have maybe not, they didn't really, they didn't really focus on that,
00:21:22.654 --> 00:21:25.214
but they did mention that even with,
00:21:25.434 --> 00:21:28.554
I think it was just the first death, they thought,
00:21:28.554 --> 00:21:31.454
huh that's kind of odd i thought this this
00:21:31.454 --> 00:21:34.474
yeah what they weren't expecting it basically which i
00:21:34.474 --> 00:21:38.054
think with each death you know obviously any death in a
00:21:38.054 --> 00:21:41.174
hospital setting i think even up to 30 days after
00:21:41.174 --> 00:21:44.094
they're discharged yeah has to be investigated yeah
00:21:44.094 --> 00:21:47.314
so obviously there's investigations going on with these deaths i
00:21:47.314 --> 00:21:50.074
feel like they're already kind of looking at the angles that you're
00:21:50.074 --> 00:21:53.454
saying like looking to see like did we do anything wrong it
00:21:53.454 --> 00:21:58.714
wasn't documented and everything i think came back as nope these babies died
00:21:58.714 --> 00:22:03.194
of natural causes because they really truly couldn't figure out like right why
00:22:03.194 --> 00:22:07.214
this was happening which would actually if they documented that let's just say
00:22:07.214 --> 00:22:11.834
they did their own internal investigating because hospitals should do that right did but i don't,
00:22:12.454 --> 00:22:14.794
find anything so of course the next step would be.
00:22:15.525 --> 00:22:18.645
Someone has to be doing this. Right. But I'm saying, like you said,
00:22:18.825 --> 00:22:22.925
they might have closed it out as, well, it was just an unfortunate thing.
00:22:23.045 --> 00:22:28.105
These babies died of natural causes. Right. So if that was like documented in their, their hospital.
00:22:28.345 --> 00:22:31.725
Or not natural causes, but like, they were like, oh, obviously these,
00:22:31.725 --> 00:22:35.245
you know, this baby died of ultimately their organs failed or their liver failed
00:22:35.245 --> 00:22:37.285
and breaking everything down.
00:22:37.305 --> 00:22:44.425
My question would be then, how do you convict, how do you convict Lucy if your own hospital involved.
00:22:45.133 --> 00:22:48.133
Determined that these deaths were by
00:22:48.133 --> 00:22:51.173
natural causes do you know what i'm saying like if they
00:22:51.173 --> 00:22:54.113
truly came to a conclusion of this doesn't
00:22:54.113 --> 00:22:57.293
natural causes based on because they
00:22:57.293 --> 00:23:00.453
couldn't find they couldn't find what was causing the
00:23:00.453 --> 00:23:05.933
actual death the actual liver failure or again i forget what some of these babies
00:23:05.933 --> 00:23:10.593
this right but was it documented in such a way that says like kind of points
00:23:10.593 --> 00:23:14.273
out those i don't know i've got the point i'm trying to say but why would you
00:23:14.273 --> 00:23:18.293
ever open an investigation on a nurse or suspect that someone might do it.
00:23:18.533 --> 00:23:20.733
No, no, no, no, no, no. Not, not that. I am saying. It's because you've moved
00:23:20.733 --> 00:23:26.353
on from the realm of, okay, this can't be. I know, but it's almost like you're backtracking.
00:23:26.633 --> 00:23:30.133
Like the hospital in a sense is almost backtracking because you need to close
00:23:30.133 --> 00:23:34.393
your internal investigation and you're going to produce that information to
00:23:34.393 --> 00:23:38.153
the police because that's what they, the police just, they wanted a conviction.
00:23:38.573 --> 00:23:44.853
The police didn't come into play until, again, after a 23 injury to a, to an infant. Right.
00:23:45.133 --> 00:23:50.193
So try to understand the point that I'm trying to make. The police are getting involved.
00:23:50.453 --> 00:23:54.733
Now the hospital's going, oh, yeah, I don't know all of our documentation.
00:23:55.033 --> 00:23:58.613
Because you do, you investigate each individual death. But wasn't the hospital
00:23:58.613 --> 00:23:59.973
the one that alarmed the police?
00:24:00.153 --> 00:24:03.793
The police didn't just come along and say, hey, I think the hospital was concerned.
00:24:03.953 --> 00:24:07.733
It was a witch hunt at that point. Well, yeah, but then it became like...
00:24:07.733 --> 00:24:11.273
Because I think they really, truly were like, what is happening?
00:24:11.453 --> 00:24:15.213
The hospital's not going to take blame for not doing a proper investigation.
00:24:15.213 --> 00:24:17.593
No, of course not. But also, I do think...
00:24:18.233 --> 00:24:23.373
I think they handed over Lucy, even though they said, well, we didn't really want to do that.
00:24:23.433 --> 00:24:27.673
No, you did, because probably most of the... Well, because they didn't want to...
00:24:28.696 --> 00:24:34.536
Realize that the odds of that many injuries and deaths happening in the span of a year,
00:24:35.436 --> 00:24:40.176
where coincidentally that nurse started working there and she happened to be present at all,
00:24:40.776 --> 00:24:43.856
deaths injuries whatever they could have they could have done something with
00:24:43.856 --> 00:24:47.696
staff but a lot sooner than they did they didn't move her off of the night shift
00:24:47.696 --> 00:24:51.816
until no they did and they thought it was too premature which is ridiculous
00:24:51.816 --> 00:24:55.156
though because you can move people for any reason right But you don't have to
00:24:55.156 --> 00:24:57.696
move people to say, hey, I think you're killing someone.
00:24:57.896 --> 00:25:00.056
But that's why they moved her. Right.
00:25:00.616 --> 00:25:05.536
I know. But I'm just saying as a nurse manager, charge nurse,
00:25:05.636 --> 00:25:08.696
whoever, whoever does their scheduling, let's just say. I don't think they should
00:25:08.696 --> 00:25:10.296
have targeted her first.
00:25:10.496 --> 00:25:15.696
If they were suspecting any healthcare personnel in general,
00:25:15.936 --> 00:25:19.456
they should have altered all schedules. Yes, that's what I mean.
00:25:19.836 --> 00:25:24.916
And to see a true difference or a true shift. The fact that they just singled her out. Right.
00:25:25.316 --> 00:25:31.636
So, okay. So my point is whether Lucy did this or not, I do think the hospital...
00:25:32.341 --> 00:25:36.441
Is definitely liable in some sense because, again, you're recognizing maybe
00:25:36.441 --> 00:25:38.241
a pattern. You didn't want to single her out.
00:25:38.421 --> 00:25:43.741
But like you said, you're a hospital and your job is to manage and your job
00:25:43.741 --> 00:25:46.461
is to do no harm and do all that stuff.
00:25:47.021 --> 00:25:49.781
Restructure your team then. Right. You figure something out.
00:25:50.041 --> 00:25:53.021
You don't just like target one nurse.
00:25:53.121 --> 00:25:56.761
Or you don't just hope for the back end. And, but, oh, so I have a,
00:25:56.841 --> 00:26:01.101
I have conflicting, I, I probably would need to rewatch it because I feel like,
00:26:01.281 --> 00:26:03.921
I think they did this, it's like kind of that bait and switch.
00:26:04.141 --> 00:26:07.701
They did that on purpose because they want you to think she did it in the beginning. Yeah. Oh yeah.
00:26:08.221 --> 00:26:11.841
And then in the end they come up with all this other stuff and you're like, oh my God, wait a minute.
00:26:12.181 --> 00:26:18.041
So I wanted to go back and be like, cause my first opinion was this guy that,
00:26:18.181 --> 00:26:19.941
like you said, I don't know what his role was.
00:26:20.021 --> 00:26:23.101
He must've been like head of the department or something. Yeah.
00:26:23.841 --> 00:26:27.881
He seems to feel sorry for Lucy. And he's like, well, I almost feel like we
00:26:27.881 --> 00:26:28.781
shouldn't have jumped the gun.
00:26:28.881 --> 00:26:33.541
Like we shouldn't have targeted her at first without doing more research.
00:26:33.981 --> 00:26:37.541
One of the nurse managers was like, well, we're going to switch her to day shift.
00:26:37.941 --> 00:26:42.101
And he was just like, whoa, this is kind of a little too premature,
00:26:42.101 --> 00:26:45.101
I think. Right. And they didn't even tell her really why.
00:26:45.321 --> 00:26:48.861
So maybe not target her. Maybe move a couple people around. But I do think,
00:26:49.001 --> 00:26:53.701
I don't think this guy is the villain in this. I feel like he definitely thought
00:26:53.701 --> 00:26:56.201
something was up. I think he was feeling...
00:26:57.152 --> 00:27:00.352
I mean, anyone knows who works in health care. You always want to do better.
00:27:00.572 --> 00:27:03.692
You know the system fails these people every day.
00:27:04.072 --> 00:27:07.992
There's only so much you can do. And I think towards the end of the documentary,
00:27:08.212 --> 00:27:12.972
too, where they do find a lot of inconsistencies with just them not following
00:27:12.972 --> 00:27:18.392
standards of care because of staffing issues, which we know that is a global issue in health care.
00:27:18.592 --> 00:27:22.052
And this guy, when he's kind of self-reflecting, you
00:27:22.052 --> 00:27:25.712
can tell it pains him to say that he
00:27:25.712 --> 00:27:28.712
knows that they're not always up
00:27:28.712 --> 00:27:31.892
to par with right with with following
00:27:31.892 --> 00:27:34.872
standards of care because of staffing issues but he
00:27:34.872 --> 00:27:39.352
also goes on to say this isn't a new that wasn't a new thing you know we've
00:27:39.352 --> 00:27:44.432
always had issues yeah years prior he's like so to kind of say that's the reason
00:27:44.432 --> 00:27:47.972
for all these infant deaths no i don't think i don't i actually don't even think
00:27:47.972 --> 00:27:50.752
that's the reason because i think it's more than that and but it's a combination
00:27:50.752 --> 00:27:52.952
of things too that i do think needs to be recognized.
00:27:53.952 --> 00:27:56.852
This particular woman basically they were
00:27:56.852 --> 00:27:59.992
saying a lot of things went wrong just in her delivery and that
00:27:59.992 --> 00:28:03.012
could have been the reason why the baby ended up in the NICU yeah her water
00:28:03.012 --> 00:28:06.632
broke she was in labor and she should have had an antibiotics initiated we know
00:28:06.632 --> 00:28:10.752
that obviously the risk of infection goes up if your water breaks within the
00:28:10.752 --> 00:28:14.592
first 24 hours and you haven't delivered your baby yet like your infection rate
00:28:14.592 --> 00:28:19.752
obviously goes up so there was a delay in her getting antibiotics among other things.
00:28:20.052 --> 00:28:24.212
And I think the hospital, they realized that and they were like, yep, whatever.
00:28:24.412 --> 00:28:27.132
It is what it is kind of thing, which I know everyone's thinking like,
00:28:27.752 --> 00:28:30.892
how could a doctor just act so nonchalant about that?
00:28:31.012 --> 00:28:34.232
And it's like, because that's the reality of healthcare. There are so many barriers
00:28:34.232 --> 00:28:38.232
and there are so many things that get in our way of delivering effective,
00:28:39.084 --> 00:28:45.904
care. And it does come down to staffing. It also comes down to the quality of staff too.
00:28:46.324 --> 00:28:52.744
It's just very hard nowadays to find good quality staff because people are leaving
00:28:52.744 --> 00:28:54.084
the profession in herds.
00:28:54.224 --> 00:28:57.404
A lot of people don't want to go to school to be a doctor anymore.
00:28:57.984 --> 00:29:01.084
There's lots of physician's assistants, nurse practitioners.
00:29:01.264 --> 00:29:04.844
We all know they don't go to the same amount of schooling and they don't even
00:29:04.844 --> 00:29:09.104
have the same structure of schooling and practice and all that as doctors,
00:29:09.324 --> 00:29:11.984
as physicians do. But we're seeing a lot of those.
00:29:12.244 --> 00:29:15.344
But I want to go a little bit backwards, like what you were pointing out.
00:29:15.544 --> 00:29:18.064
Let's just call him the medical administrator.
00:29:19.304 --> 00:29:24.004
You're right, because the medical director, you're totally right.
00:29:24.164 --> 00:29:28.544
And he's right that staffing shortages and things like that,
00:29:28.664 --> 00:29:32.184
that is that's always going to be an issue, I think in healthcare.
00:29:32.944 --> 00:29:37.664
My, I guess my point is what, what's the work around that?
00:29:37.844 --> 00:29:42.024
And that would be an increase in, you need to identify your.
00:29:42.532 --> 00:29:46.612
Someone in that facility, whether it's their nurse educator.
00:29:47.012 --> 00:29:52.912
Employee health nurse, or nurse manager, who is tracking, who is tracking trends,
00:29:52.912 --> 00:29:58.012
and then who's initiating some type of, who's implementing like a new process.
00:29:58.172 --> 00:30:03.352
Like how, I'd be interested to see how often are they checking in as far as
00:30:03.352 --> 00:30:05.612
updating their policies, updating their procedures,
00:30:05.852 --> 00:30:09.372
because who's their quality, who's their quality person
00:30:09.372 --> 00:30:12.652
their quality assurance quality assurance who knows
00:30:12.652 --> 00:30:15.752
they might be a revolving
00:30:15.752 --> 00:30:18.572
door like maybe they haven't had a consistent person in there
00:30:18.572 --> 00:30:22.152
that specific year and people don't
00:30:22.152 --> 00:30:24.972
realize that those type of positions that are left
00:30:24.972 --> 00:30:27.652
and vacant like and there's other
00:30:27.652 --> 00:30:30.612
people kind of covering in the interim but then when you get a new employee
00:30:30.612 --> 00:30:33.392
to start who's training them who is no one
00:30:33.392 --> 00:30:36.252
really no it's almost like you're starting from scratch again and
00:30:36.252 --> 00:30:40.992
this can have a dramatic impact on health
00:30:40.992 --> 00:30:43.992
care and just we're nurses right so
00:30:43.992 --> 00:30:47.312
we're kind of just like cogs we're cogs in a wheel and
00:30:47.312 --> 00:30:50.352
we come to work and we practice
00:30:50.352 --> 00:30:54.672
obviously based on our education our experience and things like that but we
00:30:54.672 --> 00:31:00.352
100 expect you come into a facility and there's going to be policies there's
00:31:00.352 --> 00:31:05.452
going to be procedures there's nursing process in general but how is it structured
00:31:05.452 --> 00:31:09.132
and then implemented? What kind of documenting do they have?
00:31:09.232 --> 00:31:13.332
Is it electronic? Is it paper charting? Is it, you know, whatever.
00:31:13.752 --> 00:31:21.112
And if you work for a facility that isn't up to the times, I guess,
00:31:21.332 --> 00:31:23.712
or they're not practicing,
00:31:24.978 --> 00:31:28.458
They're not implementing whatever guidelines that they have.
00:31:28.578 --> 00:31:34.238
So for us, obviously, we're in the U.S. So we have like federal and then state regulations.
00:31:34.718 --> 00:31:38.678
And we get surveyed and they help us, obviously.
00:31:38.878 --> 00:31:46.038
They help us introduce new practice that is supposed to improve care.
00:31:46.418 --> 00:31:50.818
It's supposed to improve care, but at the same time, the driving force for a
00:31:50.818 --> 00:31:56.198
lot of these implementing these new standards of care. is reimbursement too.
00:31:56.458 --> 00:32:02.018
It's reimbursement, yeah. Hospitals, of course, they want to get paid, so they're gonna...
00:32:02.018 --> 00:32:06.058
But if you don't have a good administrative team who knows how to implement
00:32:06.058 --> 00:32:10.658
these things, you're gonna fail because what we're seeing, and we see this a
00:32:10.658 --> 00:32:15.838
lot, is these are sometimes non-clinical people or they don't do bedside.
00:32:15.958 --> 00:32:18.438
They don't know the difference. And they're thinking...
00:32:18.902 --> 00:32:25.422
Oh, okay, so this is something new. Okay, how do we manage this or how do we implement this?
00:32:25.742 --> 00:32:31.882
And sometimes it's just adding more work, I think, on to the nurse,
00:32:32.022 --> 00:32:34.422
which pulls them further and further away from the bedside.
00:32:34.742 --> 00:32:39.562
So isn't that kind of contradicting where good care, I think,
00:32:39.702 --> 00:32:46.582
would come from increasing time spent next to the patient that you're caring
00:32:46.582 --> 00:32:47.862
for? Only if you can measure it.
00:32:47.922 --> 00:32:52.102
You have to measure it, I know. You can't measure good care without all of these.
00:32:52.102 --> 00:33:00.922
So I guess the quality metrics is based on, we have to be able to prove that
00:33:00.922 --> 00:33:05.642
we are following standards of care and that we are making improvements. And how do we do that?
00:33:05.822 --> 00:33:10.302
We do that by implementing these new tools, documentation tools.
00:33:10.642 --> 00:33:16.562
Even questionnaires or surveys for the patients, which I hate that getting paid
00:33:16.562 --> 00:33:21.582
based on quality of service is insane to me.
00:33:21.762 --> 00:33:27.102
Like I just, that's crazy because it is subjective and you're not taking into
00:33:27.102 --> 00:33:30.542
consideration that some of these people, I mean, they don't get like certain
00:33:30.542 --> 00:33:33.462
questions geared towards the reason why they were in the hospital.
00:33:33.642 --> 00:33:38.042
They get the same questions that everyone else does. So I always hated these
00:33:38.042 --> 00:33:42.802
HCAHPS scores and all this stuff when I worked bedside in a medical facility,
00:33:42.802 --> 00:33:46.622
but it was work on a surgical floor.
00:33:46.802 --> 00:33:51.122
And these people are never going to have zero pain. Like they're never going to have zero pain.
00:33:51.502 --> 00:33:54.742
But one of the questions is, did you feel that your pain was well tolerated?
00:33:55.478 --> 00:33:58.578
If they're going to answer honestly, they're probably going to say no.
00:33:58.938 --> 00:34:02.418
Like, no, but that's a ding. Like, that's a ding to us.
00:34:02.578 --> 00:34:07.778
And then did you feel that your, I don't know, doctors and nurses and whatever
00:34:07.778 --> 00:34:10.678
collaborated well or communicated well?
00:34:11.138 --> 00:34:15.958
Again, that's subjective. So a patient who's highly medicated,
00:34:16.658 --> 00:34:19.838
sedated, whatever, do you think that they're going to be able to answer that
00:34:19.838 --> 00:34:21.078
question like appropriately?
00:34:21.298 --> 00:34:25.458
Probably not. That's where the nurses, I think, would come in,
00:34:25.738 --> 00:34:29.898
even the doctors, anyone who is documenting the care that they're providing.
00:34:30.338 --> 00:34:36.038
You are documenting, obviously, measurable, objective things,
00:34:36.098 --> 00:34:39.778
and you're documenting the improvement, if there is improvement,
00:34:39.998 --> 00:34:41.958
regardless of subjective data.
00:34:41.958 --> 00:34:46.678
But you could say patient states that their pain is 10 out of 10.
00:34:48.098 --> 00:34:53.198
However, objectively, their blood pressure has decreased, but they're sleeping,
00:34:53.478 --> 00:34:55.558
they're calm, they're this, they're that. No, no, no. I understand.
00:34:55.558 --> 00:34:56.898
But they also audit the charts.
00:34:57.238 --> 00:35:04.958
So I do believe because I work in management, there is definitely a way to collaborate
00:35:04.958 --> 00:35:09.918
with your administrative team on ways to manage these things.
00:35:09.918 --> 00:35:13.738
But make it make sense because the goal is to improve quality of care.
00:35:14.038 --> 00:35:21.058
And I just think it's possible in this hospital, in this situation, who knows?
00:35:21.218 --> 00:35:26.618
Again, I'd be curious to see, were there vacancies in some of the really important
00:35:26.618 --> 00:35:31.498
positions like a risk manager, risk manager, charge nurses?
00:35:31.818 --> 00:35:33.898
I mean, we know turnover rates can be,
00:35:34.647 --> 00:35:42.347
pretty high for some positions. And you have to assign somebody somewhere would have to say,
00:35:42.787 --> 00:35:47.727
hmm, let's measure the metrics on having a position vacant for a while.
00:35:47.847 --> 00:35:50.107
It's not necessarily short nurses.
00:35:50.307 --> 00:35:52.607
The nurses are always going to show up and do their job. Always.
00:35:52.947 --> 00:35:54.887
I mean, we, we see that all the time.
00:35:55.967 --> 00:36:02.427
Staffing, I deal with staffing sometimes. And a lot of times we do run short staff.
00:36:02.647 --> 00:36:09.207
However, there has to be someone in some sort of management position who can,
00:36:09.927 --> 00:36:13.167
strategize around, we still have patients we have to care for.
00:36:13.247 --> 00:36:14.607
So how are we going to do this?
00:36:14.727 --> 00:36:19.647
I can't snap my fingers and make another nurse appear or make another behavioral
00:36:19.647 --> 00:36:22.247
health associate appear. So what are we doing?
00:36:22.367 --> 00:36:26.347
And a lot of it is just strategizing and coming up with a team plan.
00:36:27.247 --> 00:36:31.807
If you have more acute patients, for instance, so Lucy, they had made a comment
00:36:31.807 --> 00:36:34.287
that she was one of the more competent nurses.
00:36:34.487 --> 00:36:39.747
So she typically, her assignment was the more acute babies.
00:36:40.467 --> 00:36:45.887
But what does that do to her overall performance? If she has all of the most
00:36:45.887 --> 00:36:50.847
critical cases, let's just say, do you think her overall performance is going to be good?
00:36:51.147 --> 00:36:58.447
Probably not. So if that was the strategy was the best nurses get the most critical
00:36:58.447 --> 00:37:01.527
babies, then maybe it's just,
00:37:02.257 --> 00:37:07.957
Should there be some sort of establishing more document, more documented witness
00:37:07.957 --> 00:37:11.237
with feedings or something, whatever she was.
00:37:11.297 --> 00:37:16.197
I think one of the babies, obviously, most of them have some sort of NG tube or something like that.
00:37:16.537 --> 00:37:21.137
If she's administering medications, I would be curious to see maybe they do
00:37:21.137 --> 00:37:25.617
have a hospital policy that says there needs to be two nurses,
00:37:25.617 --> 00:37:29.217
something, I don't know, some sign off, some witness or something.
00:37:29.217 --> 00:37:34.257
And maybe they were bypassing it because they just didn't have the availability.
00:37:34.617 --> 00:37:39.817
So anyway, this whole thing, I just, because I talk about it at work a lot, as far as the nurses go,
00:37:40.037 --> 00:37:46.617
it's protecting your license and making sure that you are very well aware of
00:37:46.617 --> 00:37:54.377
hospital policies versus what is within your scope. What's the process? Does it make sense?
00:37:55.237 --> 00:37:58.997
If I come over to a nurse and I say, yeah, it's okay.
00:37:59.117 --> 00:38:04.277
Just put the, go ahead and just throw the order in, throw it in under so-and-so or whatever.
00:38:05.372 --> 00:38:10.652
That's it's wrong. I'm asking a nurse to practice outside of her scope because it's more convenient.
00:38:10.932 --> 00:38:14.892
It's more convenient. And I know that while the doctor is not available and
00:38:14.892 --> 00:38:19.432
this order isn't like a medication order, it's an order for observations or
00:38:19.432 --> 00:38:21.532
something like that. It's still wrong.
00:38:21.692 --> 00:38:25.992
But you think about over time, now that just becomes common practice.
00:38:26.492 --> 00:38:31.272
So how many of those types of workarounds? They're workarounds.
00:38:31.452 --> 00:38:35.512
And I hate to say it, you can complain about workarounds all the time, which I think we do.
00:38:35.892 --> 00:38:40.632
Nothing truly ever gets done about it until there's a, unless there's a sentinel
00:38:40.632 --> 00:38:43.852
event. Unless there's, exactly. And then when that sentinel event happens, guess what?
00:38:44.792 --> 00:38:49.352
Let's look at it this way. Maybe these people need more training or they need more education.
00:38:50.032 --> 00:38:55.712
No, it's like you get penalized and you get almost demoted and taken away from
00:38:55.712 --> 00:38:59.352
that, that, oh, you're no longer qualified to do this anymore.
00:38:59.352 --> 00:39:05.372
And it's like, Well, no, maybe more education is needed rather than taking it away from someone.
00:39:05.692 --> 00:39:09.732
Right. So it's a team approach, I think. It's really just collaboratively.
00:39:09.852 --> 00:39:14.672
You have like a nurse educator, you have a risk manager, you have nurse manager.
00:39:16.172 --> 00:39:19.272
And you're supposed to come together and figure out like, OK,
00:39:19.432 --> 00:39:24.632
so obviously there's policies and procedures that we have to follow to obviously
00:39:24.632 --> 00:39:26.852
maintain our regulatory agencies.
00:39:26.852 --> 00:39:29.672
Also let's corporate health care in general a lot
00:39:29.672 --> 00:39:32.752
of it is it's for profit they want to
00:39:32.752 --> 00:39:35.812
be paid they don't want to get well i was going to say the term the
00:39:35.812 --> 00:39:38.532
term that i was thinking of earlier was which i was fumbling over
00:39:38.532 --> 00:39:45.232
my words but is the value based model of reimbursement so like that that's quality
00:39:45.232 --> 00:39:51.612
and quality of care and improved outcomes so of course every hospital aims aims
00:39:51.612 --> 00:39:56.332
to do that because they want they want to get reimbursed they want to get paid in order to get that,
00:39:56.472 --> 00:40:00.152
you have to give good quality care and satisfactory care.
00:40:00.332 --> 00:40:05.252
But you know what? Sometimes what it comes down to is they think the solution is that.
00:40:07.566 --> 00:40:10.846
People can take this how they want it, whether it's my own personal experience
00:40:10.846 --> 00:40:16.686
or just what I think, but it comes down to, Hey, when you're gathering surveys
00:40:16.686 --> 00:40:21.206
from the patients, try to go to the patients that obviously had a great experience.
00:40:21.406 --> 00:40:25.606
Do you know what I mean? And it's a little manipulative because the goal for
00:40:25.606 --> 00:40:29.146
them is positive reviews, not the goal.
00:40:29.366 --> 00:40:33.506
Isn't what's the root of it is to actually provide the quality care.
00:40:33.706 --> 00:40:37.406
Do you know what I mean? It's like, let's gather actual feedback
00:40:37.406 --> 00:40:40.386
from all walks of life so
00:40:40.386 --> 00:40:44.066
that we can actually put the work in and maybe improve and
00:40:44.066 --> 00:40:46.886
see you know what this person makes a valid point we know there's
00:40:46.886 --> 00:40:50.366
going to be people that are never happy no matter what we do for them of course
00:40:50.366 --> 00:40:55.166
those you just have to again just chalk it up as a loss it is what it is whatever
00:40:55.166 --> 00:40:59.366
move on they had oh a zero out of ten stay because my grilled cheese was burnt
00:40:59.366 --> 00:41:05.706
oh i'm so sorry you know that we saved your big toe and yeah did all All this other stuff,
00:41:05.946 --> 00:41:08.826
saved your life and made sure you walked out of here.
00:41:09.006 --> 00:41:13.146
But yeah, that grilled cheese really did it. I'm so sorry. Next time we'll do better.
00:41:13.366 --> 00:41:17.346
You know what I mean? It's like you're going to get those people no matter what. And-
00:41:18.003 --> 00:41:21.823
I don't know why people feel like nurses kind of need to keep their head in
00:41:21.823 --> 00:41:24.023
the sand and not, oh, they don't need to know this information.
00:41:24.463 --> 00:41:30.983
I think they do because how can you have a full appreciation or understanding
00:41:30.983 --> 00:41:36.643
of how the system works when I think administration tends to keep things from employees?
00:41:36.783 --> 00:41:41.683
Because in their brain, they think, oh, this is kind of on like a need to know type of basis.
00:41:41.863 --> 00:41:43.983
Like, I don't think the nurses need to know this because it's going to cause
00:41:43.983 --> 00:41:47.763
drama or it's going to cause rumors or issues. Let's face it.
00:41:47.863 --> 00:41:49.283
Rumors are flying around no matter what.
00:41:49.463 --> 00:41:54.363
Wouldn't you rather them have the facts than have them going around and creating
00:41:54.363 --> 00:41:58.043
their own narrative because they heard a small blip of whatever.
00:41:58.283 --> 00:42:02.323
And oh, they think the CEO might be doing this or the CFO is doing this.
00:42:02.583 --> 00:42:06.023
But also sometimes there's wrong information being spread.
00:42:06.223 --> 00:42:09.743
No, 100%. You know, I go around and I'm like, oh, so you think because you heard
00:42:09.743 --> 00:42:15.063
from a doctor that this is okay, but maybe the doctor doesn't have a full understanding
00:42:15.063 --> 00:42:17.883
of what the policy means. So you have to kind of do your own research.
00:42:18.243 --> 00:42:21.363
And also understand that some of these doctors are contract.
00:42:21.923 --> 00:42:23.363
Like they're contract doctors.
00:42:23.443 --> 00:42:25.803
So like they say, oh, don't worry about it. Don't worry about it.
00:42:25.883 --> 00:42:29.843
No, you could be Lucy Leppi being investigated and you're going to be like, what?
00:42:30.303 --> 00:42:35.883
What the heck? Like I thought the hospital had my back. I thought that the team had my back. No.
00:42:36.183 --> 00:42:41.523
If you're the one that is there and don't ever function like,
00:42:41.743 --> 00:42:47.063
I always tell people this and it took me a long time because I was burnt a lot
00:42:47.063 --> 00:42:50.683
of times throughout my career as a nurse. Sometimes you just have to learn that.
00:42:50.803 --> 00:42:55.683
You have to protect your peace and you have to protect your nursing license.
00:42:56.703 --> 00:43:01.183
Practice nursing defensively. Always keep that in your brain.
00:43:01.643 --> 00:43:05.383
No one is going to have your back. Truly, at the end of the day,
00:43:06.183 --> 00:43:09.163
even if it's your best friend that you've been working beside your whole life,
00:43:09.363 --> 00:43:15.203
if it comes down to the scrutiny of any situation that might put your nursing
00:43:15.203 --> 00:43:18.563
license on the line or even your job on the line,
00:43:18.743 --> 00:43:28.903
you will be thrown under the bus so fast because no one is going to risk their livelihood for you.
00:43:29.083 --> 00:43:34.923
They're not. So let me, so I'm just going to review like quickly how to protect
00:43:34.923 --> 00:43:38.103
your nursing license or just any license that you might hold.
00:43:38.503 --> 00:43:45.563
So you want to prioritize meticulous, real-time documentation of patient care and incidents.
00:43:46.303 --> 00:43:52.143
Strictly adhere to your state's nurse practice act, NPA.
00:43:53.143 --> 00:43:56.803
You can look it up to see, you want to make sure that you are practicing within
00:43:56.803 --> 00:44:00.023
your scope. I don't care if a nurse manager or a doctor comes up to you and
00:44:00.023 --> 00:44:01.743
says, hey, yeah, do this.
00:44:02.123 --> 00:44:05.463
Don't think that just because they're smart and they're in a higher position
00:44:05.463 --> 00:44:08.483
that it's okay. They know what they're talking about.
00:44:09.123 --> 00:44:14.583
Do your own due diligence. Do your own research. And like Julie said, practice defensively.
00:44:14.663 --> 00:44:17.963
It's okay to push back. But be right about it, though.
00:44:18.643 --> 00:44:24.063
Don't push back on doing care if it's within your scope because then you could
00:44:24.063 --> 00:44:28.003
be negligent. So again, just knowing exactly what is within your scope.
00:44:28.103 --> 00:44:29.883
But I want to just interrupt you real quick there too.
00:44:30.083 --> 00:44:34.503
If it's within your scope, yes. But also don't mistake...
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:41.100
That if you don't have, you could, okay, so you take your boards, you pass, you're an RN.
00:44:41.320 --> 00:44:44.420
You don't just walk into a local ER and start practicing.
00:44:44.680 --> 00:44:50.000
You need proper training. You are entitled to proper training.
00:44:50.340 --> 00:44:55.640
So do not be fooled if someone tries to throw in your face or administration
00:44:55.640 --> 00:45:00.620
or whoever and say, well, it's in your scope. You're able to do this because you're an RN.
00:45:01.020 --> 00:45:05.580
If you have never had experience doing something,
00:45:05.760 --> 00:45:11.580
regardless if you have the policy in front of your face, you can push back and
00:45:11.580 --> 00:45:16.200
say, I do not have experience in this area. I do not feel comfortable.
00:45:16.280 --> 00:45:18.660
I feel that my nursing license is at risk.
00:45:18.820 --> 00:45:25.260
And the hospital is responsible and liable to be teaching whatever it is within that scope.
00:45:25.560 --> 00:45:27.920
That's why you have annual competencies, you have health streams.
00:45:28.160 --> 00:45:30.280
And if you're someone who just pushes... People think it's so boring.
00:45:30.440 --> 00:45:35.280
But also don't mistake what I'm saying for if you've had ample opportunity to
00:45:35.280 --> 00:45:40.980
train, get trained, get educated, and you just outright refuse,
00:45:41.340 --> 00:45:42.560
that is being insubordinate.
00:45:42.800 --> 00:45:46.340
Right. You can refuse unsafe assignments. Again, you're not...
00:45:47.080 --> 00:45:51.200
But it's not just, I'm refusing because I don't want to do that.
00:45:51.380 --> 00:45:54.180
No. But if you're going to refuse an assignment, you have to put it in writing.
00:45:54.400 --> 00:45:57.780
You put it in writing, but you also have to back it up with why.
00:45:58.660 --> 00:46:01.740
Everything has to be in writing. You can't just say, I had a conversation with
00:46:01.740 --> 00:46:06.220
so-and-so and they knew and I was clear on my, no, you're never clear.
00:46:06.400 --> 00:46:08.100
If you didn't document it, it didn't happen.
00:46:08.320 --> 00:46:11.800
And it goes both ways. If you didn't document on your patient, it didn't happen.
00:46:11.920 --> 00:46:15.280
If you don't document any conversations that you're having with your managers,
00:46:15.620 --> 00:46:18.960
whoever you report to, put everything in writing.
00:46:19.320 --> 00:46:23.020
So yeah, never act outside of your scope of practice. If a complaint is filed
00:46:23.020 --> 00:46:28.780
against you specifically as a nurse, you can, it's suggested that you immediately
00:46:28.780 --> 00:46:32.380
retain an attorney that specializes in licensed defense.
00:46:32.960 --> 00:46:37.140
I think it depends on what type of care or whatever the complaint is.
00:46:37.220 --> 00:46:38.680
Cause we get a lot of those all the time.
00:46:38.800 --> 00:46:41.700
And then we have like a internal investigation and things like that.
00:46:41.820 --> 00:46:45.320
You don't have to retain an attorney because honestly, though,
00:46:45.880 --> 00:46:50.620
your documentation is what is going to support you.
00:46:50.820 --> 00:46:54.260
So if your documentation is really sucky, then I guess, yeah,
00:46:54.340 --> 00:46:57.120
good luck. Maybe you should get an attorney. This is really important.
00:46:57.880 --> 00:47:03.280
Do not discuss anything about the case or their patient or whatever it is,
00:47:03.400 --> 00:47:04.280
whatever they're investigating.
00:47:05.000 --> 00:47:08.200
You don't discuss it. You don't text your friend about it. You don't say,
00:47:08.360 --> 00:47:12.240
oh my God, like in our case, oh my God, DMH came by today. Can you believe,
00:47:12.240 --> 00:47:13.380
Oh, they were asking about this.
00:47:13.800 --> 00:47:18.400
Do not under any circumstances do that, even though it seems innocent enough.
00:47:18.480 --> 00:47:20.660
Maybe you're not talking specifically about the patient.
00:47:21.020 --> 00:47:26.560
You're not talking specifically about anything HIPAA related or anything like
00:47:26.560 --> 00:47:27.540
that. It doesn't matter.
00:47:28.428 --> 00:47:31.428
You're texting about it it's it's
00:47:31.428 --> 00:47:34.348
going to make you look suspicious and they could they could pull
00:47:34.348 --> 00:47:37.208
that into like it lucy like her
00:47:37.208 --> 00:47:40.068
text was scrutinized from however many years back
00:47:40.068 --> 00:47:43.348
and it was just her talking to her co-workers and honestly i've read some of
00:47:43.348 --> 00:47:48.648
them thinking that's normal i do that with my co-workers so best practice don't
00:47:48.648 --> 00:47:54.648
be texting anything work related it's you just you just never know documentation
00:47:54.648 --> 00:47:58.508
super super super important don't ever alter,
00:47:58.868 --> 00:48:01.448
delete, or falsify documentation.
00:48:01.788 --> 00:48:07.488
If an error occurs, you document it as late entry or addenda, something like that.
00:48:07.628 --> 00:48:11.148
You note the actual time of the action that took place.
00:48:11.788 --> 00:48:17.208
So if it's a late entry, you're noting that this is a late entry at blah,
00:48:17.288 --> 00:48:20.628
blah, blah, blah, pertaining to, and then you date and time,
00:48:20.808 --> 00:48:22.388
whatever you're talking about.
00:48:23.688 --> 00:48:28.648
Knowing the law, So regularly review your state's Nurse Practice Act,
00:48:28.848 --> 00:48:32.688
like I said, NPA, to understand your legal scope of practice.
00:48:33.048 --> 00:48:38.428
Employer policies, they do not supersede state law.
00:48:38.448 --> 00:48:44.668
That is so important. I tell my staff that all of the time, that our facility
00:48:44.668 --> 00:48:48.728
can have whatever hospital policy that they see fit,
00:48:48.968 --> 00:48:54.388
but it is whatever your scope is within the state that you're working,
00:48:54.608 --> 00:48:57.348
that is what is most important.
00:48:57.748 --> 00:49:02.048
So know that because I could come down tomorrow and tell a nurse,
00:49:02.168 --> 00:49:06.148
hey, this is our new policy. You don't have to do vital signs anymore on patients.
00:49:07.068 --> 00:49:09.848
Any good nurse would look at me and say, yeah, that's cool.
00:49:10.028 --> 00:49:13.948
I'm going to continue to do vital signs because That's what's going to protect me.
00:49:14.088 --> 00:49:17.448
That's what's going to protect the patient or like the thing that kills me too
00:49:17.448 --> 00:49:21.468
is Because you could be saying this and someone who's very concrete could be like,
00:49:22.298 --> 00:49:25.258
okay, I need an order for this. I can't do this because I need an order, blah, blah, blah.
00:49:26.758 --> 00:49:34.198
Your assessment as a nurse, it includes vital signs and neuros and anything
00:49:34.198 --> 00:49:38.638
that calls- You don't need a doctor's order to do- Measurable objective type
00:49:38.638 --> 00:49:40.398
care. Right. And also blood sugars.
00:49:41.078 --> 00:49:47.458
If a person is symptomatic, check the blood sugar and ask for forgiveness later
00:49:47.458 --> 00:49:55.758
because- Yep. I'm sorry, but to me, that's a standard of care when it comes to being a nurse.
00:49:55.898 --> 00:50:01.418
You should be able to perform a full head-to-toe assessment on someone if they're
00:50:01.418 --> 00:50:06.278
showing signs or symptoms of altered mental status. We don't know what happened.
00:50:06.418 --> 00:50:09.438
They could have fallen or they could have a low blood sugar.
00:50:09.578 --> 00:50:13.658
You want to rule out almost anything that's within your scope.
00:50:13.658 --> 00:50:17.238
And part of it is nursing assessment and
00:50:17.238 --> 00:50:20.038
a lot of times the nursing care plans or the treatment
00:50:20.038 --> 00:50:23.398
care plans cover you because it's
00:50:23.398 --> 00:50:26.218
usually also I like what you said though like do what
00:50:26.218 --> 00:50:31.038
you need to do first and then deal with maybe some repercussions afterwards
00:50:31.038 --> 00:50:35.518
right at the end of the day even you're covering your own nursing license like
00:50:35.518 --> 00:50:39.978
me as a nurse manager I come up to you and I'm like our hospital policy says
00:50:39.978 --> 00:50:44.638
that you need a doctor's order in order to obtain a blood sugar, guess what?
00:50:44.898 --> 00:50:48.038
That means nothing because as the nurse...
00:50:49.035 --> 00:50:53.415
I mean, yeah. Okay. I think that's what hospitals that do incorrectly is that
00:50:53.415 --> 00:50:56.215
they're taking away the nurse's ability to kind of critically think,
00:50:56.415 --> 00:51:00.235
and they're kind of conditioning them to think that they have to follow whatever
00:51:00.235 --> 00:51:05.215
policy is in place, but not actually questioning what is that going to do for
00:51:05.215 --> 00:51:06.595
me? And what's that going to do for patients?
00:51:07.035 --> 00:51:13.915
So nurses, if you're contacting a doctor or you're trying to get,
00:51:14.095 --> 00:51:17.555
you know, that this something is kind of outside of your scope and you need,
00:51:17.755 --> 00:51:19.935
you do need a doctor's order for something.
00:51:20.655 --> 00:51:25.775
And whether it's a life-saving medication or treatment or whatever,
00:51:25.995 --> 00:51:28.455
and for whatever reason, you can't get in touch with the doctor.
00:51:28.875 --> 00:51:34.295
You still do your due diligence and you try to figure out a way and you document all of that stuff.
00:51:34.515 --> 00:51:40.235
You document maybe the barriers that maybe happened because you still did.
00:51:40.815 --> 00:51:44.755
You did your due diligence. You followed the necessary steps.
00:51:45.275 --> 00:51:50.235
If you don't document any of that and something happens, do you think that that
00:51:50.235 --> 00:51:53.935
doctor or whoever is going to sit there and say, oh yeah, my fault.
00:51:53.975 --> 00:51:55.895
I did. I had like eight missed calls.
00:51:56.715 --> 00:52:02.615
My bad. No, I mean, it's, and on the other hands too, like nurse practitioners, doctors,
00:52:02.895 --> 00:52:09.475
like if you're taking a call from a nurse and you're not asking thorough questions
00:52:09.475 --> 00:52:14.135
to make sure and you're just giving blanket order or something like that.
00:52:14.295 --> 00:52:17.115
It goes hand in hand. Everybody kind of has to protect themselves.
00:52:17.875 --> 00:52:21.335
Liability insurance, every nurse or anyone who holds a license,
00:52:21.335 --> 00:52:23.435
you should purchase this.
00:52:23.675 --> 00:52:26.715
For nurses, it's like a hundred bucks a year. I mean, for us,
00:52:26.855 --> 00:52:30.315
it's through Massachusetts and I think it renews every.
00:52:31.606 --> 00:52:35.866
I think you can obtain it through your homeowner's insurance, too. Oh, yeah, you can.
00:52:36.146 --> 00:52:40.206
Like, there's homestead insurance, too. I think I have mine on my...
00:52:40.206 --> 00:52:41.846
It protects... But it's cheap.
00:52:42.186 --> 00:52:45.586
But it protects... If you do own a home, it protects you so that they can't
00:52:45.586 --> 00:52:46.706
come after your home, too.
00:52:46.726 --> 00:52:50.126
Anyone who is practicing, and you guys are the front lines, and you're doing
00:52:50.126 --> 00:52:54.926
the med side and all that, you have to really trust that the people that are
00:52:54.926 --> 00:53:01.006
fighting for you, the people that are in positions to discuss hospital policy and process,
00:53:01.266 --> 00:53:08.606
that they have an understanding of it because they could be blindly agreeing to some policy.
00:53:08.806 --> 00:53:13.186
And if they're not up to speed on what the state regulations are,
00:53:13.346 --> 00:53:15.406
as far as scope, they could be like, oh, okay, sure.
00:53:15.666 --> 00:53:19.586
But there's a lot of changes just in healthcare in general, where they want
00:53:19.586 --> 00:53:24.126
a lot of patients to consent for things and everything has to be consent,
00:53:24.326 --> 00:53:25.326
consent, consent. Okay, great.
00:53:25.826 --> 00:53:28.926
Depending on what field or.
00:53:30.157 --> 00:53:37.157
Population of patients that you're dealing with. If consent is dealing with
00:53:37.157 --> 00:53:42.517
determining someone's capacity, that's not an RN scope. That's a doctor.
00:53:42.817 --> 00:53:46.477
So there's a lot of examples of kind of where healthcare is going.
00:53:46.777 --> 00:53:51.177
And I just think... Just don't be afraid to question.
00:53:51.877 --> 00:53:55.717
If something doesn't feel right in your gut question
00:53:55.717 --> 00:53:58.777
it because when it comes with experience
00:53:58.777 --> 00:54:01.677
I think newer nurses newer nurses one of
00:54:01.677 --> 00:54:04.697
my favorite things I always say is you
00:54:04.697 --> 00:54:07.837
don't know what you don't know so you
00:54:07.837 --> 00:54:10.637
could be put in a situation where you're just like oh yeah this is
00:54:10.637 --> 00:54:13.877
what I was told to do so I'm gonna do it because you're a new nurse and you
00:54:13.877 --> 00:54:16.977
want to just be a good little doobie and not question anything I kind of get
00:54:16.977 --> 00:54:20.617
the sense that's how Lucy function yeah she definitely was one of those people
00:54:20.617 --> 00:54:25.537
that like a people pleaser i just wanted to touch on as recipient of care because
00:54:25.537 --> 00:54:31.217
i think a lot of people get sue happy i do and i think every time someone calls and makes a complaint.
00:54:32.138 --> 00:54:37.318
It just motivates the regulatory agencies to come up with some other tool,
00:54:37.658 --> 00:54:42.678
some other whatever. And it's like, you're not actually helping improve quality care.
00:54:42.958 --> 00:54:48.178
So obviously, you have the right to file any type of complaint that you want
00:54:48.178 --> 00:54:52.378
as a recipient, as a patient, as a consumer, whatever it is.
00:54:52.898 --> 00:54:56.778
But practice it wisely. Practice it and have intent behind it.
00:54:56.778 --> 00:55:03.138
I think knowing the laws as a patient or someone who is seeking care is obviously very important.
00:55:03.598 --> 00:55:06.478
Know what HIPAA means. Know what privacy means.
00:55:06.698 --> 00:55:10.578
We get, I'm just thinking in our small little group where family members,
00:55:10.578 --> 00:55:16.258
they call and they're, I'm going to sue you guys because you've violated my HIPAA.
00:55:16.378 --> 00:55:21.678
And it's like, no, we didn't. And you clearly don't have an understanding of what HIPAA is, but okay.
00:55:21.958 --> 00:55:25.818
And so these people will, they'll call all of these. And it's just like,
00:55:25.958 --> 00:55:30.318
you have to, every little complaint that comes through, we investigate.
00:55:30.498 --> 00:55:36.638
Right. And it kind of bogs down and it takes away from maybe some complaints
00:55:36.638 --> 00:55:40.798
that are worth looking into. So there's that factor too.
00:55:41.418 --> 00:55:45.358
Exercising your rights, I think on both sides, obviously as a nurse.
00:55:46.218 --> 00:55:51.498
Exercising your rights, know your scope, do your own research, practice defensively.
00:55:51.498 --> 00:55:54.598
And then again even as a patient know your rights
00:55:54.598 --> 00:56:01.918
as a patient but don't threaten either I mean I think a lot of times nurses
00:56:01.918 --> 00:56:07.418
we come to work and I think we just there's a lot of stuff that we have to worry
00:56:07.418 --> 00:56:11.518
about just in general and when you already have a family member that's kind
00:56:11.518 --> 00:56:14.218
of already showing their stance it's like.
00:56:15.079 --> 00:56:17.939
I always say the saying, the squeaky wheel gets the oil.
00:56:18.119 --> 00:56:22.479
So like if you're that family that's like demanding this, demanding that,
00:56:22.599 --> 00:56:27.299
like, yeah, of course you're going to, I feel like naturally the nurses, the doctors,
00:56:27.799 --> 00:56:31.639
social workers, case managers, I got to pay more attention to you,
00:56:31.679 --> 00:56:35.319
but I don't think it is for your advantage.
00:56:35.879 --> 00:56:39.159
No. And you're also pulling away from other patients too.
00:56:39.379 --> 00:56:43.219
Like these families don't understand, like, listen, I have to divide my time
00:56:43.219 --> 00:56:45.619
between the other patients too.
00:56:46.119 --> 00:56:50.479
So I'm not saying it's not to your advantage because we're secretly sabotaging,
00:56:50.659 --> 00:56:53.119
but I'm saying it's not going to be the outcome.
00:56:53.179 --> 00:56:58.199
It's not because we do practice defensively. So if we already know.
00:56:59.154 --> 00:57:05.154
You're kind of like these silent threats essentially of basically,
00:57:05.594 --> 00:57:08.034
well, watch your back. Like I'm onto you.
00:57:08.714 --> 00:57:12.454
Yeah. Our senses are a little bit more heightened and we tend to pay a little
00:57:12.454 --> 00:57:15.294
bit more attention, but not in the way that you think.
00:57:15.474 --> 00:57:18.794
It's not like we're like, oh my God, we're going to give you the most exceptional care ever.
00:57:18.954 --> 00:57:24.814
If anything, we're going to be more, we're going to be more hypercritical over what we're doing.
00:57:25.394 --> 00:57:28.594
But like you said, it's going to take away from yeah
00:57:28.594 --> 00:57:31.914
it's going to take away from the actual care
00:57:31.914 --> 00:57:36.194
that we probably would be able to do they benefit
00:57:36.194 --> 00:57:41.154
though from just some education like for me if I get a phone call from someone
00:57:41.154 --> 00:57:44.894
who's really angry like an angry family member demanding this demanding that
00:57:44.894 --> 00:57:49.654
usually that's I will take the extra time I will take the 30 minutes on the
00:57:49.654 --> 00:57:54.794
phone with them to maybe try to change their mind to just educate them if they're willing.
00:57:55.234 --> 00:57:58.214
And I got to say that makes all the difference.
00:57:58.374 --> 00:58:02.554
I know there's some managers, I'm not talking about managers I work with,
00:58:02.634 --> 00:58:06.574
but I, I know you've dealt with people like customer service in general,
00:58:06.574 --> 00:58:09.134
you deal with people that are just like, well, that's your choice.
00:58:09.434 --> 00:58:13.594
And they kind of just pass the buck and say, Oh, Oh, you want to file a complaint?
00:58:13.734 --> 00:58:15.374
Okay, sure. Here's the CEO.
00:58:15.654 --> 00:58:18.894
Here's the, I don't know, here's the 1-800 number. And it's Like,
00:58:18.994 --> 00:58:20.794
no, maybe you could just take the time.
00:58:20.794 --> 00:58:25.474
So you give the time, but then you also, and I think some people don't have,
00:58:25.674 --> 00:58:30.914
they don't always deliver it tactfully, but like you have to basically say to
00:58:30.914 --> 00:58:33.034
this person, I'm going to give you this time,
00:58:33.694 --> 00:58:36.394
but that you have to understand that this isn't.
00:58:37.126 --> 00:58:41.406
This isn't something that we will continue to do on a daily basis.
00:58:41.746 --> 00:58:43.246
When you have families that call constantly, they want an update.
00:58:43.246 --> 00:58:45.806
Because then they want, but then they expect it. You're pulling me away.
00:58:46.046 --> 00:58:49.446
Then they expect it. And it's like, I'm going to give you the time now,
00:58:49.466 --> 00:58:55.426
but respectfully, I need you to know that we have to condense our communication
00:58:55.426 --> 00:58:59.186
because things do need to get done in a timely manner.
00:58:59.386 --> 00:59:03.806
And I can't be on the phone with you for 30 minutes every day.
00:59:03.806 --> 00:59:07.966
And then you expect to call the next shift and talk to someone else for 30 minutes
00:59:07.966 --> 00:59:11.106
or have another family member call and expect the same information to be related
00:59:11.106 --> 00:59:13.666
to that. Really, these families have to be the point person.
00:59:13.886 --> 00:59:17.226
And so sometimes I think that first line of defense of, okay, I'm going to talk to you.
00:59:17.346 --> 00:59:22.386
I'm going to give you the education that I think would actually help some of
00:59:22.386 --> 00:59:29.266
this to hopefully prevent you now calling incessantly, asking the same questions
00:59:29.266 --> 00:59:31.826
over and over again and not getting, I guess, the answers.
00:59:31.826 --> 00:59:34.986
So it does work it works
00:59:34.986 --> 00:59:37.766
to my benefit usually you come to work you kind of
00:59:37.766 --> 00:59:40.906
just you're kind of like a robot you're on autopilot you're kind of just doing
00:59:40.906 --> 00:59:46.806
these things and if you take a second every shift or even before you walk into
00:59:46.806 --> 00:59:52.646
work put yourself in a patient in one of the patients that you're dealing with
00:59:52.646 --> 00:59:57.586
or maybe that you're having a really hard time with put yourself in their shoes and think to yourself,
00:59:57.946 --> 01:00:00.806
if I were this person, how would I want to be treated?
01:00:00.966 --> 01:00:06.326
Or if that were my family member, how would I want my family member to be treated?
01:00:06.786 --> 01:00:11.126
Regardless if you think their behavior is unreasonable or they're being whatever,
01:00:11.426 --> 01:00:17.746
put yourself in that person's shoes or think of it as your family member.
01:00:18.066 --> 01:00:22.766
And that is how you should practice because I'm telling you, It will change.
01:00:23.246 --> 01:00:27.966
It will change your perspective on things. And sometimes you will kind of maybe
01:00:27.966 --> 01:00:33.246
respond in a situation and you could be the difference of whether this person
01:00:33.246 --> 01:00:36.726
is going to give a satisfactory survey or not. It really could be.
01:00:36.846 --> 01:00:39.326
So if I have time, of course, I'm going to.
01:00:40.150 --> 01:00:44.030
I'm going to go do that because there's two benefits to it. It allows you guys
01:00:44.030 --> 01:00:46.590
to do what you need to do, take care of the patients on the front lines.
01:00:48.090 --> 01:00:49.970
And this family member,
01:00:50.737 --> 01:00:53.917
could completely turn their view around of
01:00:53.917 --> 01:00:56.737
the care and they usually do and you spend just
01:00:56.737 --> 01:00:59.397
like any amount of time and half the time
01:00:59.397 --> 01:01:02.857
you don't even have to have the answers you can just say i i understand where
01:01:02.857 --> 01:01:07.117
you're coming right just listening i feel you i'm so and again i like i'm so
01:01:07.117 --> 01:01:10.497
sorry you're going through this right now do you know just real quick because
01:01:10.497 --> 01:01:17.177
we'll we'll tie this up though but just to point out how why i do think that this is effective.
01:01:17.917 --> 01:01:22.637
So this was like a few months ago, I had a family who was calling incessantly
01:01:22.637 --> 01:01:24.737
and they kept getting bounced around, bounced around.
01:01:24.877 --> 01:01:27.437
They were getting bounced to like the admissions everywhere because the lady
01:01:27.437 --> 01:01:29.597
came off hot. Like she came off like angry.
01:01:29.837 --> 01:01:32.137
So immediately people are like, I don't want to talk to this person.
01:01:32.517 --> 01:01:36.697
So anyway, I, I ended up talking to her. She went from, I want to pull my dad
01:01:36.697 --> 01:01:39.937
out of your facility. I just think it's ridiculous, blah, blah, blah, blah.
01:01:40.757 --> 01:01:45.597
I gave her the time and I did what you had said, which is kind of set limits
01:01:45.597 --> 01:01:48.177
and understanding of this is how it works.
01:01:48.457 --> 01:01:52.617
Also, if you call the unit, please expect that they're probably going to transfer
01:01:52.617 --> 01:01:55.137
you because they don't have time to talk to you. It's not that they don't want
01:01:55.137 --> 01:01:56.437
to give you. Or they don't have the answers.
01:01:56.737 --> 01:01:59.957
Or they don't have the answers. So to kind of limit your frustrations,
01:02:00.277 --> 01:02:02.777
this is what you should do, blah, blah, blah.
01:02:03.197 --> 01:02:06.357
Come in. Here's our visiting hours. Come in. You're not going to be able to
01:02:06.357 --> 01:02:09.317
talk to the nurses during the visiting hours. It's too chaotic.
01:02:09.577 --> 01:02:15.837
Have your visit, write down specific questions, and I can spend 15 minutes with you after the visit.
01:02:16.097 --> 01:02:20.657
And it worked. And you already set your expectations, the time limit.
01:02:20.797 --> 01:02:22.577
He ended up having a great stay with us.
01:02:22.737 --> 01:02:27.577
And after discharge, this woman, she called.
01:02:27.837 --> 01:02:32.097
She called like a week later, specifically asking for me. I just so happened
01:02:32.097 --> 01:02:33.617
to be there, just so happened to be at work.
01:02:34.857 --> 01:02:42.177
And she was like, I, I'm so grateful that I got you on the phone because, and I'm so happy.
01:02:42.297 --> 01:02:45.417
And I guess I said something to her I didn't even realize, but I just said,
01:02:45.577 --> 01:02:48.937
listen, this is, I'm explaining to you how our facility works.
01:02:49.577 --> 01:02:53.997
And just please just give us a chance. Give us a chance.
01:02:55.266 --> 01:02:57.886
I don't remember saying that, but apparently I did. And she said,
01:02:58.106 --> 01:03:04.686
I am so happy that I gave you guys a chance because I think my husband or father,
01:03:04.826 --> 01:03:09.346
I don't even remember, but is definitely better because she called and she was
01:03:09.346 --> 01:03:10.406
angry about med changes.
01:03:10.806 --> 01:03:14.646
I know exactly. These meds work. Yeah, exactly. Because I, I talked to.
01:03:15.526 --> 01:03:19.906
Yeah. But it's just so cool. And she did. She was very appreciative.
01:03:20.186 --> 01:03:22.566
Yep. Because I'm the same way too. I can't just blow. Which is great.
01:03:22.746 --> 01:03:25.086
I remember thinking, oh my God, this is going to be the worst.
01:03:25.686 --> 01:03:29.326
Admission ever because this family is so angry at us and they think they know
01:03:29.326 --> 01:03:30.446
more than us and blah, blah, blah.
01:03:30.606 --> 01:03:36.666
But honestly, just kind of validating those feelings and just asking, please, please.
01:03:37.146 --> 01:03:40.726
And knowing and having your, like just little things like that are,
01:03:40.906 --> 01:03:44.026
you, it makes such a huge difference. It really does.
01:03:44.426 --> 01:03:47.806
You have to be a conversational wizard. Yeah. I think to do our job.
01:03:48.046 --> 01:03:51.946
All right. So we can wrap this up. Definitely a different style of episode,
01:03:52.046 --> 01:03:55.426
but I think it's definitely worth talking about these things,
01:03:55.446 --> 01:04:02.986
especially since a lot of our listeners are nurses or hold some sort of license in healthcare.
01:04:03.386 --> 01:04:08.086
There's a lot of nurses that are on trial for horrendous things,
01:04:08.126 --> 01:04:10.646
I guess. Some are guilty. Some are not.
01:04:10.926 --> 01:04:15.686
But yeah, I think it's- Lucy Lipley. Lucy Lipley. Is she guilty of those collapse?
01:04:15.806 --> 01:04:16.966
I still don't really know.
01:04:17.226 --> 01:04:20.226
I know. I don't know either. I don't know. It is very, very weird.
01:04:20.306 --> 01:04:24.406
And her whole demeanor and affect was really strange from the get,
01:04:24.546 --> 01:04:28.566
but I, but she probably was just so distraught and so depressed.
01:04:28.566 --> 01:04:30.906
And every time the police came to her house and she was just,
01:04:30.906 --> 01:04:34.006
I think she was just depressed and in bed.
01:04:34.226 --> 01:04:37.846
Like, cause every time the police came, she was, she looked like she just rolled
01:04:37.846 --> 01:04:39.666
out of bed basically. Yeah.
01:04:40.126 --> 01:04:42.226
She had cats. Like no emotion. I know.
01:04:43.248 --> 01:04:46.928
And then she wrote her best friend. She was writing her letters or something.
01:04:47.188 --> 01:04:49.408
And she was talking about how she misses her cats.
01:04:50.368 --> 01:04:57.268
So maybe some correlation there. We talked about that in our very first episode that we ever did.
01:04:57.868 --> 01:05:06.028
Julie, you're going to have to find some story about correlation between cat
01:05:06.028 --> 01:05:07.868
owners. And I don't know.
01:05:08.588 --> 01:05:12.148
Nothing against anyone who owns cats. I already did. I know.
01:05:12.308 --> 01:05:16.468
The theory of why. Not her. She didn't seem like a crazy cat lady.
01:05:16.848 --> 01:05:21.148
No, but just maybe a little recluse and maybe...
01:05:22.182 --> 01:05:25.882
I don't know, flat, emotionally, blunted, a little bit odd, but hey.
01:05:26.502 --> 01:05:30.722
But that was, we were seeing her after already being convicted and.
01:05:31.142 --> 01:05:33.262
But you, and you don't really know that though.
01:05:33.702 --> 01:05:37.122
Cause we don't know what she was like before. Right. Yeah.
01:05:37.142 --> 01:05:40.962
And I didn't do a deep dive on her personal life. But my guess is if I were
01:05:40.962 --> 01:05:46.642
her and this was happening to me, I probably would need to be heavily medicated. Oh, for sure.
01:05:47.182 --> 01:05:53.742
Yeah. Yeah, because I would be under a tremendous amount of psychological stress.
01:05:53.742 --> 01:06:00.102
And also, I just want to highlight, too, so these deaths happened between 2015 and 2016.
01:06:00.402 --> 01:06:05.842
She wasn't being questioned about them until like years 2020, I think.
01:06:05.962 --> 01:06:08.902
So that's another thing for nurses, and I do say this all the time,
01:06:09.022 --> 01:06:13.522
is that you could be called into question for cases or things that have happened
01:06:13.522 --> 01:06:18.682
years ago, years prior, and you're going to be like, I don't remember this person. I don't remember.
01:06:18.942 --> 01:06:24.162
You think about how many babies she probably cared for in that time period. Thousands, thousands.
01:06:24.482 --> 01:06:27.522
You think she's going to remember every little... No, I'm sorry.
01:06:27.582 --> 01:06:32.702
Names escape me all the time. If you talk about a specific incident, I might remember it.
01:06:33.062 --> 01:06:37.682
But if you were like, tell me about Robert Jones, I'd be like,
01:06:37.802 --> 01:06:40.302
who? All right. We will wrap this up.
01:06:40.762 --> 01:06:43.902
This is a long one. Shout out to all the nurses out there.
01:06:43.902 --> 01:06:53.362
Keep doing what you're doing Fight the good fight Cheerio No wait What do British.
01:06:53.362 --> 01:06:58.682
People Say goodbye Cheerio Cheerio.