Megan Willome: George Orwell wrote that bad writing habits can be avoided if one is willing to take the necessary trouble. Welcome to Necessary Trouble, a pilgrimage into writing faithfully. Each season, we read a book about writing craft and critique each other's work right here in real time. As we grow in love of words, we grow in love of God and of our neighbor. Words, they're worth the trouble. Welcome back to Necessary Trouble. This is still season one and we are at episode five on Marilyn McIntyre's Caring for Words and a Culture of Lies. I'm sorry, we're on chapter six. Yes.
Tresta: Right? Yes, six.
Megan Willome: Thank you so much. Tresta
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: sent up a little number for me because I wrote it down wrong. So yes, episode six, which is called Share Stories. So I'm Megan Willamy.
Tresta: I'm Tresta Payne.
Callie: And I'm Kelly Feyen.
Megan Willome: And Callie I saw when I saw that the chapter is titled Share Stories, I thought Callie could have written this.
Callie: Feel like I I am writing it. It's yeah,
Megan Willome: Mm.
Callie: like like like I said before, it's how I it's stories are how I breathe, it's it's how I live, everything I think everything I do as long as I have a story for it, I can keep going.
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm. And that's what you're always encouraging other writers to do, whether they're your your college students or or writers you're working with, you're helping them to find the story.
Callie: Yeah, what's what's the story here? What's the story here? Yeah, I remember when I had my first interview for a job for teaching, I decided that no matter what question was gonna come first, I was gonna tell a specif a specific story. I was just gonna I had it it didn't matter what they were gonna ask. And I'm sure it was gonna be something like, Why teaching, you know? Tell us a little bit about yourself, something general. So I had an idea of what that first one was going to be. But I I no matter what they were gonna ask, I was gonna tell a story. And I did. I got the job. I I decided
Megan Willome: wow. Okay.
Callie: like as long as I get a story in, I have I have an idea of what I can of what it is I have to say or what how I'm trying to say what I need to say. So
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: So are you talking in that scenario about a real life story from your life or a book that you've read?
Callie: Yeah, yeah, that's that's all I mean I I love fiction and I probably read fiction more than I read creative nonfiction. but I think in story, I order my life in in story. And so yeah, what I whatever I don't remember what the story was, but I knew that it was going to be something about you know, who who I was up until that point or my experience in education and schooling or something along those lines. But yes, it was going to be a true story.
Megan Willome: Well, you know, that's kind of what McIntyre is talking about in this chapter is
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: that our lives are stories, and stories are how we make sense of our lives. Because they're different ways to tell the same story, right?
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: And I love, I'm just gonna kick this off. You know, we always share at the beginning. some part of the chapter that we really liked and on page
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: 114 this is right at the beginning of the chapter she introduces she just has a list of lines that we're all going to recognize from scripture and I just found this so captivating so here's here's what she has take off your shoes you are on holy ground
Callie: Hm.
Megan Willome: here am I Lord But yet you have another son. I alone have survived to tell thee. This night will thy life be required of thee. This, my son who was dead, is alive again. Martha, Martha, you are busy about many things. Son, behold your mother.
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: And yeah, she's right. With just one line, it brings us home to those stories that we have read
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: so many times. And each with each one, as I read each one, I was like, it's that one. it's that one. I didn't feel bored. I felt excited to see them all
Callie: It's fun. Right.
Megan Willome: together like this.
Callie: You know, the other thing I found interesting about what you just read, and I didn't realize it until you were reading, and I was going over what else she had said that I enjoyed was this idea that each of each of those stories had some sort of what did she call it, negative capability.
Megan Willome: Yes.
Callie: yeah, like I mean, I guess maybe not the Martha Martha one, but you know, this idea that like my son was dead and now he's alive. you if if we ha if someone had said that, if that was a New York Times headline right now, that would be we wouldn't believe it, right? And and so you do have to have some negative capability of she talks about certain kinds of understanding that we have no access to except by means of story. And I think all of those had that in some in some ways, that we understand things that we can't always say or articulate or express without that story.
Megan Willome: Is that something
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: is n negative capability something you talk about with your students when you're helping them write?
Callie: I don't think I do it obviously, but I think that that's that is the way that I teach is you know, I
Megan Willome: Mm.
Callie: don't I don't think I've ever had a phrase for it up until up until now. And now I'm wondering if I ought to. But I do think that I've I've I think we do that when we're finding the metaphor, for example.
Megan Willome: Okay.
Callie: Like like or when we're you mentioned how we we all tell a story differently. Like we'll all experience something differently. And that Martha and Mary story, I think women, I bet all three of us would have a very different, or you know, maybe we'd have some similar, but I do think that we come to that story differently. I know that I have in different times of my life. And so to say, I I if I understand negative capability correctly, to come to a story, knowing that you might see it And interpret it differently as a 20-year-old and then again as a 50-year-old. You know, I think that that is opening us up to the different versions of ourselves and the different versions of stories and how they can embrace us and our lives from where we are. yeah, I don't know if I ever say this is what this is, but that would be cool to do that.
Megan Willome: Yeah, I was just curious.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: Tresta, the in that section about neg being negative capability, being negatively capable, she writes, I'd like to see negative capability listed among the virtues we
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: urge among the young. I was just thinking about all your years as a a homeschooling mom.
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: And this is such an interesting idea of a virtue.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: Yeah, and I'm still trying to pinpoint exactly what she means by negative capability. she goes on in that same paragraph, she says toll right after the sentence that you just read, Megan, she says tolerance for ambiguity is one of the most urgent disciplines and attitudes we can cultivate today. It is the opposite
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: of bigotry, rigidity, and culture-bound vision. There can be no
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: peacemaking or even effective negotiation without it. So Is sh so I think she's tying negative capability in with ambiguity. So I I sense that what she's saying is the opposite of having certainty, the opposite of a story that wraps up with a tidy bow. Or
Callie: Mm.
Tresta: that you know how when you're you're watching a movie and you're like, I know what's gonna happen next. I could write this stuff
Callie: What? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tresta: i if you have something that shocks you or surprises you or
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: that doesn't end with what feels like a solid conclusion, you just you have to sit without story longer.
Callie: Mm. And man, ambiguity, I I don't think I don't think a lot of us have tolerance for that. I mean, I don't I don't think that without a story we can do that. And I'm I'm just not sure. And I don't know if any of us has
Tresta: Yeah, absolutely.
Callie: the time. You know, I don't I mean I like to make the time to read stories. I love reading and I love stories. But I don't know if in society in general, I mean, have you guys noticed recently that or maybe this isn't recent, at the top of a news article or an essay or even a blog post, it will say this is how many minutes it should take you to read.
Tresta: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Megan Willome: I think.
Callie: If you know what, this is how long it's gonna take me to read. If I like that topic sentence, I don't care. I don't care how many
Tresta: Right.
Callie: I'm gonna read it. If I don't, you know, you you have five sec five sentences maybe for for me to be intrigued and then I'm moving on. But like the second that I you know can't latch on, I'm done. So yeah, I don't know.
Tresta: w what I loved about homeschooling and tutoring high school students who were homeschooled was reading books together and like you were
Callie: Yes.
Tresta: saying, Callie, the different interpretations that you bring, it I think it I think that reading in community like that and then having a discussion about it, not writing book reports and all that, but actually having a discussion
Callie: No, yes.
Tresta: shows you that there is ambiguity where you maybe thought that it was you know, you ha you settled on an interpretation, but then somebody else
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: is like, Well I you know, I th I saw this or I thought that and
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: I just think that's so good. I miss that part of homeschooling. I I'm the mom, mother in law, grandma who gifts books every year. Every
Callie: Mm. I love that.
Megan Willome: I love it.
Tresta: year at Christmas, I give everybody, I give all the adults a book that I have read in the past, sometimes right off my shelf or sometimes I'll buy them their own new copy. and then I'm giving, you know, the grandkids children's books. But it's you know, they can do what they want with it. They can read it or not. but
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: some of my kids have read. In fact, our middle son, I gave him Peace Like a River a couple of years ago and he he reread
Megan Willome: that's such a great book.
Callie: Wow.
Tresta: it and told me, Mom, that's that's my favorite book I've ever read. So
Callie: my gosh.
Megan Willome: Wonderful.
Tresta: God, so rewarding. And we so we can
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: we can pull out those lines. I mean, I can't think of any off the top of my head right now, but
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: we did a lot of read alouds when they were growing up too. But when you have those shared stories, just like those
Callie: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Tresta: one liners that Megan read, all you need is that one line and you have a
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: whole conversation that you've just had with somebody who
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: also knows the story. And I think we I remember, this is this is a tangent, but I remember when I was in high school, you know, you had certain shows that were on certain nights of the week and everybody watched
Callie: Yeah,
Tresta: them. And you would go to school and
Callie: yes.
Tresta: talk about them. You don't have that anymore. You can watch whatever you want, whenever you want, and there's so many choices.
Callie: No, you don't. And not only that, but you can binge it, which I guess isn't terrible, although that word nauseates me. It just it feels
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: not okay at all. But you're right. There was like Thursday night, I remember we had Cosby and the family ties, and then eventually it was friends.
Tresta: Cosby. Yeah.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: And you knew the next day everyone was gonna be talking about it. And but I loved even when the teachers would read aloud to us and we could not wait to know what happens or like when the teacher would like slow it down because we knew we were getting to an ending and she would have to close it for the next day or he and we're all like, you know, that's so fun. And I just
Tresta: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Callie: don't know if that's happening anymore. But My dad also gives us books every every year. And one of the things I love is he will write, he'll write the year, and then there will be like maybe a Bible verse or a quote or something. It's not necessarily Came from the book, but it's like somehow tied to it. And so it's like this little, and I don't think he means to do it, but when I read it, I'm like, okay, what does this have to do? Like, what is he trying to tell me about this
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Callie: book and really who I am? Because the books that he gave me, even as a younger child, I was like, I can't read these books. I I don't know what I'm not a reader, I can't do this, but he continued to do that and it was never a shameful thing. Like I'm a writer. I I went to grad school because of my dad. And so he continued to just like he saw something that I did not see. and he kept pushing that. But I think that's just a great just a great a gift to give people books and you know you can't go wrong.
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Well, I I've heard this story before, but share with us about how your dad influenced you to go to grad school.
Callie: well, so we had let's see, I mean it it really was a dark and stormy night.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: It was October 31st, somewhere around I want to say like two thousand and eleven, two thousand and ten or something. And I had walking pneumonia and I was my kids were I think not quite three and not quite one, I think. So like two and zero, somewhere around there. And we'd gone trick-or-treating and I could barely walk from, you know, the hallway to the bedroom. And I felt like and this was my, you know, parenting, new parent mistake, but like you go trick-or-treating and then try to put your kid to bed. That's not going especially when like
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: they just realized what trick-or-treating is all about. It's like the best thing ever. So I think I put them to bed Like 4,000 times. Jesse was out of town. My parents were there. And you know, grandma and grandpa, they want to help, but they don't really know. Like, they're not gonna say no to my kids, right? That's just how how it works. And so I had to be the disciplinarian. I was just exhausted. Finally, I get them to sleep, and we go, I I'm in the living room and I sit down and I wave my hand around like the living room area, and I go, this. is not enough. I felt terrible about saying it, but I was like, it felt it, I was like, I am done. And
Tresta: Wow.
Callie: my dad said, what okay, so what what is it that you want? And it felt like a confession. I said, I want to write. I want to write. I had been taking like dab, I had a blog, I'd been dabbling in a little bit of like community workshops and things like that. And when I said that, he leaned forward and like clapped his hands and was like, okay. And like we just sat down and he's like, this is what we're gonna do. And he found something called care.com, which is like a babysitting service. He's like, All right, we're gonna, we're gonna find some babysitters. We're like, you know, obviously Jesse was in on this as well, but like he laid that plan for me, but it was up until like I mean it had been years. Even even when I was bef like right after I had graduated from college, he would send me books by Lauren Winner, Gregory Wolf, Scott Kearns, all those people in that all the people any
Megan Willome: people in your graduate program.
Callie: and he called them my friends. He's like, I I found a book from your friend. And I didn't know any of them, but like at you know, at the back of their books or image, there's always a little like insert about a graduate school. And he's like, I think you should I think you should do this. And, you know, my history of education of being schooled was not great. So I never thought I would ever apply to a grad school program. but yeah, I did. And my my feeling was like I will apply to this one or not. You know, either I get in, I'll apply a couple of times. if I don't get in, then I'm just not supposed to do it. But I, you know. But that's yeah. Yeah, I owe it to him to just keep he just gently I wouldn't even say it pushed me. He was just kinda like it was like he knew it was gonna happen, but and he was gonna wait forever. It didn't matter. He knew it was eventually gonna happen. So I I never felt like he was pushing me to like do something. It was like he she has it. She needs to open that gift and and do it, which is kind of how I think about with my kids too. Like they gotta do it. They have it. They just gotta figure it out. I can't figure it out.
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: I tell you, I I've always loved this story, but I love that you began it as you're telling us with it was actually a dark and stormy night. Because
Callie: It it literally was.
Megan Willome: we all know that that line, which is a cliche, which is
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: it can be used for good or for ill, but you grounded us with saying it was actually a dark and stormy night.
Callie: Right. And talk about ambiguous. You know, like you I could
Megan Willome: Yes.
Callie: I couldn't see literally and figuratively. I wasn't feeling well. I mean, it was just I kind of joke about the fact that it was a dark and stormy night, but it it really was.
Megan Willome: It's it's the perfect first line for you to share this story.
Tresta: Yeah. That's great.
Callie: Well, and I think that's what what good writers can do. We can take those Please note that I just said we and lumped myself in the good virus things, but we we can
Tresta: As you should, as you should.
Callie: we can take those cliches or those trite things, phrases, and make them make them real and make them genuine again. I think that that's a that's sort of our call to do that is to take those universal, I know what's gonna happen and and make it fresh. you know, why not? Why not do that? I think that's kind of a a cool exercise.
Megan Willome: Well, Tresca, what about you? What stood out in the chapter?
Tresta: Well, I I read it. That was my
Callie: I'm sorry.
Tresta: that was my highlighted one. I'm always afraid that someone else is gonna go first and and take my quote, but
Callie: Ha ha ha.
Tresta: so I got it in there. Tolerance for ambiguity is one of the most urgent
Megan Willome: Okay, that was it.
Tresta: disciplines and attitudes we can cultivate today.
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Okay.
Tresta: As opposed to certainty and all the right answers and owning people in an argument.
Callie: Hmm.
Megan Willome: But you know, it it is scary. I think maybe one reason people don't read fiction as much is because it does open you to ambiguity.
Tresta: Well, and it sometimes feels like is my conclusion the right one. I mean that's again, if you're reading something in solitude, at
Callie: Hmm.
Tresta: least for me, I'm like, Well, this is what this is what really stood out to me, but I was that the point? I don't know. I like to be in
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: Sure.
Tresta: I like to be in s discussion. have you guys read Theo of Golden?
Megan Willome: I have not.
Tresta: Callie, thumbs up or thumbs down. Okay. We'll let the listeners guess which way your thumb pointed. I
Megan Willome: Living it out with you.
Tresta: I haven't I haven't read it. but I just listened to him on a podcast today. The thing that stood out to me about it, about his interview, was that he said he aspired to be the person that the character that he made. You know, he wrote a character that because people speculate, I guess, that he is that the author is Theo of Golden. And
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: he's no, no, no, no. He's that's who I want to be.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: but I just thought I thought of someone, like I said, I haven't read the book, but I thought of somebody who would like to gift the book to after I read
Callie: Mm.
Tresta: it. And I just this this person is just at a point in their life th but they just have lost spiritual energy. That's how we've been framing it.
Callie: Right.
Tresta: and I don't know, it just seemed like a story that would I I don't know. Just something about that line of this is a character who I aspire to be, you know, I think that's one thing that I pull out of
Callie: Yeah. I think I think that's that's why it's so loved is the what what he what Theo does for the people in that town is just very s it's very sweet. It's it's it's very kind. I found the character a little creepy.
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: because I mean I don't want to do any I don't want to do any spoiler alerts, but what he does is sort of strange to me. And so I guess I maybe I didn't have that negative capability like it would be I I don't I don't imagine that ever happening. If he were to approach me in that way, I would have been freaked out. The
Tresta: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: other the other thing that bothered me was the stereotypes of the other people, especially the women. there were physical descriptions of the women and not so much the men, and that bothered me. and I also wanted to know why he was doing what he was doing, and you don't really understand it until until the end. but I know people who absolutely loved it. I mean, it's
Megan Willome: I do too.
Callie: like either either you love it or you you don't like it. There were just
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm.
Callie: I and I and I have people who I simply adore and that just love it. That just
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm.
Callie: love it. So I think it's you know, this is this is where I feel like stories are living things because to tell somebody who that they that loves a story to say like you're wrong that is that's not okay either, you know? So
Tresta: Right.
Megan Willome: No, of course not.
Callie: I would I so when I when I found out that like other people I I know and love love the story, I I continued to read it trying to figure out what it was that that they liked. And I can see, I can see what they what they liked about it. I just I guess I need a little more Flannery O'Connor. Well, yeah, somebody does.
Megan Willome: Yeah, no.
Tresta: Nobody dies in the book. Somebody dies. Okay.
Megan Willome: Well
Tresta: Spoiler.
Callie: Yeah,
Megan Willome: A little more a little more grotesque. A little more grotesque.
Callie: I mean there's definitely what's that? Yeah, it's not as very protecting. Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's yeah, there's just there's just some overtures that I that I have a real hard time with and it, you know, it made me kinda sad that this man was writing under I don't know, some presumptions about people, about races, about Poverty,
Tresta: So that
Callie: that sort of thing.
Tresta: yeah, so that brings me to my to my point about ambiguity. I because I've I have seen just people love it or hate it, like passionately w one way or another.
Callie: Yeah. Yeah.
Tresta: And having not read it myself, I just wonder if it is it missing ambiguity. it sounds like it's maybe a little bit too saccharine for some people. so maybe it's missing the ambiguity, whereas Flannery O'Connor
Callie: I think so. I think so. Yeah.
Tresta: I think she nails nails that. You don't know who the good guy or the bad guy is.
Callie: Yeah, yeah. And I and I think that's the grace, right? I mean, like that's the grace that I'm at least looking for. That disruption is like, I don't know who's bad and who who's right and who's wrong here. And that is really disturbing. And like she says, Marilyn McIntyre says stories complicate things. I can't remember where that was, but the stories that matter complicate our lives. And Flannery O'Connor, Tequila Mockingbird, Harry Potter, all these things really complicate my life. And I'm okay with that. I also think that there are certain, you know, like maybe you've been through enough in your life where you're like, I I need this story. So, for example, Twilight. I
Megan Willome: Yes.
Callie: don't know if I can say that that's going to complicate my life anymore. I remember reading it and telling Jesse, I know exactly what's going to happen, and I cannot put this book down. And it
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: it was a security blanket. I was in the depths of infant and toddler, you know, in the trenches, as they like to say. and I would I would devour that book. And I I can go back to it now and and I'm kind of like, this is really embarrassing. but I would never have been able to to handle Flannery O'Connor in in that point in my life. So I wonder if I would have loved Theo of Golden as a new mom.
Megan Willome: Maybe so.
Callie: Because sometimes that's just w that you know, I think stories come to us at at certain points. And the people that I'm thinking of who loved Theo, I also am thinking that came to them in a s in a at a certain point. And maybe if I read this in another thirty years I will feel that way. Or if I had read it when I was you know, a new mom in my thirties, I would have I would have loved it and it would have been quite a comfort to me. So yeah.
Megan Willome: Yeah, I was, you know, the the previous chapter, the one that's actually chapter five that we covered last time, Read Well,
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: has really stuck with me because reading reading well is something we grow in. And the more stories we read and the more variety, you know, with this one being called Share Stories, I think
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: that enhances our ability to read well. I read a fascinating article this last week that was about all of the tech bros who have been influenced by science fiction. Shocking, right? But how this this professor is a professor from Denmark was documenting how often They didn't read the story carefully. And so they have named their companies or their technologies after the things that that are the evil, right? because what they were seeing
Tresta: That's evil and bad. Yes. Yes.
Callie: That's hilarious.
Megan Willome: was something that was meeting them probably at a time when they were maybe a young teenager and they're
Callie: Sure.
Megan Willome: just excited because they were showing these covers. These were like Isaac Asimov and early radio.
Callie: Okay.
Megan Willome: Variant things like this, you know. And I can see you being a 13 year old and being super excited about this world and maybe this word, right? And then when you become a billionaire with
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: Right.
Megan Willome: your own company, you employ that word. But as if if they were encountering it for the first time, maybe
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: a more varied diet reading.
Callie: So what was it like what were some I'm thinking like Voldemort or what's the death spell like
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Okay, well the the one I'm familiar with that y'all would be familiar with too. This is fantasy. so Lord of the Rings.
Callie: Okay.
Megan Willome: Are y'all familiar with what a palantir is? It's the thing that's like a crystal ball. Okay.
Callie: I don't think so. yeah, yeah.
Megan Willome: And it's not a good thing. Everyone who uses the palantir opens themselves up to evil.
Callie: Yeah. this is hilarious.
Megan Willome: And it corrupts them and everyone around them. Well, there is a Palantir technologies that that cooperates
Tresta: Well
Callie: Well that I mean
Megan Willome: with the spy satellites. And I'm like, anyway, I just Yes, yes. Voldemort would be a little
Callie: That sounds about right.
Tresta: Wow. Maybe it is aptly named.
Callie: that is hilarious. That is really funny.
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: too on the nose, but it just I it behooves us. To read a variety of stories and to allow
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: ourselves to age with them, right?
Callie: I think so.
Megan Willome: Because twilight for you is always gonna kind of be comfort food. And that's okay.
Callie: It is, absolutely.
Megan Willome: You know you're eating ice cream and you're just having a good time. You don't you
Callie: Yeah. That's right. That's right.
Megan Willome: don't think you're getting a healthy meal.
Callie: Right, right. I'm very aware. I'm very aware. Although I will say upon reading though that series, and I you know, I have read them more than once, I do find that it's i Bella really does become independent and a little stronger than she was in the beginning, and I really like seeing that.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: and I did not see that in the in the in the beginning. You know, all I saw was like the love story. And yeah. What's interesting, there was an interview with Stephanie Meyer and one of the criticisms of the book, and I don't know if this is accurate or not, but one of the criticisms was she did not follow the rules of the werewolves and vampires. Like I I not rules, but you know, there's There's certain, you know, in folklore you're you ha you're supposed to kind of stay with those, I don't know, characteristics or whatever. And she didn't do that. But then the other thing people didn't like was that she said, they said, how come you write every how come everybody is beautiful and all of your in in the whole series, everybody's just like drop dead gorgeous? And she's like, Because that's how I wanted to do it. I thought
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: good for you. Just like I'm just gonna do
Megan Willome: Good for you.
Callie: what I wanna do. yeah, this is funny.
Megan Willome: All right, well I think it is time for the trouble seat. And
Callie: All right.
Megan Willome: this week it is Tresta. So Trester, you ready to read your piece? Okie dokie.
Tresta: I'm ready. Our shared language. Hot lemons, someone says under their breath. We are all at my son's house, and the grandbabies are tearing up the bachelor pad a bit, messing with their uncle's carefully placed antler collection, and rearranging his decor to their liking. He is too polite to say anything, but his older brother sees the toddlers wreaking havoc and gives me a knowing look, using the family vernacular to subtly ask for help in wrangling the little boys. Hot lemons means off limits, because our shared story is that twenty five years ago one of our daughters interpreted interpreted it that way. Our home was unchildproofed, but there were areas and items that were off limits to the kids, and they picked up on the concept without properly articulating the term, and it stuck. Some things are hot lemons, and at the moment my grandsons are the second generation of kids who need to learn that there is stuff you don't touch. Another favorite term is Bill. We use it like some people use dude, sometimes exclamatory, but mostly pejorative. Bill works in any place you could use dude, anytime you need to call out someone's tomfoolery or boneheadedness, and when it's really bad, we say Beal to stretch the emphasis further. I asked a family member a pretty pointed question that I thought I already knew the answer to the other day via text message, and their only response was Beal.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: My husband is the orator in the family and naturally tells the very best stories. He has probably never heard of Freytag's pyramid, but his hunting stories and retellings of biblical narratives always keep listeners' attention, and he once retold the entire book of Esther with no notes on a Sunday morning. Bill comes from a hunting story he heard thirty or more years ago about a bow hunter who had made a deer blind in a very conspicuous place. The number one goal of a bow hunter is to be inconspicuous. He was a newbie to the sport, a noob, as the kids say, and his name was Bill. Sometimes we combine Bill and Noob and say boob when you do something foolish or funny. This is our shared love language.
Callie: Ha ha ha.
Megan Willome: Thank you.
Callie: I love this piece. It's it's I think in one of my comments I said this is such a great character development of of the family without saying we
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: like we have inside jokes, right? You know, there there's a
Tresta: Right.
Callie: there's a th there's the theme, but the you the specifics of it is I love that. I mean hot lemons, I was hooked. Talking about a first sentence. I mean, I could I could see and feel and probably taste that. And then I'm like, why would why would we what are we talking about here? Why would we use this? And so I I love how you bring us into it and then you give us the why of what it is. and then Bill, my goodness. Yeah, I was I think that is hilarious. So so many, so many good things here.
Megan Willome: Yeah, I've I I've I have to I want a third. Is there a third
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: one you could do? I mean both hot lemons
Tresta: Not
Megan Willome: and bill are excellent.
Tresta: Yeah, there's more but not necessarily appropriate for podcasts.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Tresta: I don't wanna throw my family completely under the bus.
Callie: Under the bus. That's hilarious.
Megan Willome: Fair. Fair point. Well,
Callie: I would
Megan Willome: what I love is like what Callie said that this is a story about family without telling us that it's a story about family.
Callie: Yes.
Megan Willome: You know, you've got three generations here,
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: just offhandedly included in the essay without
Callie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: without having to declare that at the beginning. And I thought that was really skilled.
Callie: Yeah, yeah. I think if you wanted to explore it more, you could bring us more into the story that happened 25 years ago that was interpreted that way. I think that would add a little more depth if you wanted to. And then the other Area is the paragraph where you say, My husband is the orator in the family and naturally tells the very best stories. I think the story with Esther, obviously, you don't want to tell the whole thing, but like maybe bringing us into the day he did this. and again, it might just develop it a little bit more. and then I mean, I I think or otherwise maybe don't don't have 'cause I don't think you need to have 'cause I wanna know more, like kind of takes me out of the essay. So I wanna know more about this. the one thing that I I thought as I was reading it was, okay, what what is at stake here? I mean, there's obviously the tension of how these stories came about, how hot lemons like that sounded like, you know, there's that there's there's a tense moment there. and Bill is tense as it's funny, but what is it that that's at stake that will make this really last line land so beautifully? This is our shared love language. And love can be a form of, you know, the conflict or tension. and Esther in and of itself is such a tense conflicted story that I think that might lend itself well to maybe developing that tension a little bit more.
Megan Willome: That. I was going
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: to point to that same paragraph, but a different suggestion,
Callie: Hmm.
Megan Willome: which is where you say that your husband naturally tells the very best stories. Well, I don't know your husband, but I'm going to beg to differ. Because you do tell wonderful stories,
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: but I think you tell them through writing. I mean, I I'm imagining
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: that your husband is maybe better just speaking on his feet, right?
Tresta: Yes, for sure, for sure.
Megan Willome: and so that could be another way that you could explore the way you tell stories very differently than him. You know, maybe it takes more time, maybe you know, I I don't know. But I think you're an excellent storyteller and this
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: essay is proof of it. You're just, I'm imagining, doing it in a very different form.
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: Yeah. Good stuff. Okay, so and it's short again, so I definitely have room to make it a little longer and and flesh it out. Callie, when you can you say more about what you mean by what is at stake in the story?
Callie: Like it you don't have to do anything like a big a big secret. I don't mean that, but what what when you read through this makes your heart feel a little not nervous, but like you're sharing something. Like you're you're giving us an insight into your family. But I guess it's it's like there's there's not much that's conflicting about it. Like it's a very sweet scene of it. So well, so Tresta,
Tresta: It needs more flannery. Needs more flannery. Okay. Noted.
Callie: you wrote something and I used it with my students once. and it, goodness, I have to find it. It it It's so descriptive. It's such a great scene and it's about scars. And I think you're on a I think you're on a s a roof doing something and you fell or There's and and I mean obviously I guess you could say what's at stake is the that you fell, that you hurt yourself, but there's there's something in you fell on a stake, that's what it was. Yes, I knew it was gruesome. I knew it was something gruesome, and obviously
Tresta: I I fell on a stake, literally. I fell on a stake literally. Huh. I don't I do not remember writing about that.
Megan Willome: Remember this okay.
Callie: that's tense. Like nobody's gonna say, that's not a conflict, that's not, but like you
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Callie: used that. situation, I guess what you might say like the obvious conflict to to do something else. Like you're talking about like scars or what's imprinted or I c I can't remember exactly, but like so I guess this is the story, but where, you know, what's the understory that's going on? Or like what about that that can you bring out that story of the hot lemons, like where you know, your daughter was Or not your daughter. Who was it? Was it your daughter? Yeah, it's so interpreted that way.
Tresta: It was my yeah, it was my daughter.
Callie: Here here's an example. my my oldest daughter, Hadley, for a really long time thought that bras were called super buns. I'm sure you guys know this story. And I never corrected her. I just I just never did because I thought it was hilarious and the the one one time we were At the mall, all four of us were at the mall, and I had a gift card to Victoria's Secret, and we went in and I could already see Hadley's
Megan Willome: Well,
Callie: eyes like you know, her favorite
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: colors pink, you know, all this stuff's happening. So Jesse says, You well, you go ahead and look around and I'll take the kids out for a little while. so the The ending of the story is he brings them back. They have the he's fed them chocolate. So they've got chocolate all over themselves. They take them to like the indoor park. You know, Hadley's got these like, you can already tell, like, she's out of control. And she sees she sees this pink, beautiful stuff, and she's like, my gosh. I remember her saying, Do they have five T? Do they have my size? Remember like the three T, five T do they have five
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: T said that really loud. And then she sees. all that all the other stuff and she just yells super bonds and it was it was hilarious but I you I used that to in the middle of that to talk about how I wish my mom were here to help me because I was all by myself. It's not fun to shop by yourself. Like I wanted to, and and she was always so good at like, get this one, get this one, and you know, this will be fun or whatever. You know, and she's just that's just how my mom was. She made everything an adventure and something super fun. And so, like, as I'm writing that, like the first draft was just the joke. This is this was the adventure that we went on. But the more that and and it and I had it workshopped and I think somebody asked me what was at stake. And then I remembered like I was standing in line just kind of feeling sad because you know everybody had somebody else that they were with, and I wish that my mom was there. And you know, I was a new mom and and all of that. So I guess that's what I mean when I'm I'm saying like, what can you bring out of Esther? Like what brought your your husband to decide. he was going to tell the story of Esther. I think
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Callie: that's really that'd be a great backstory. And then also what was this hot lemons? You know, like where did that come up with how did they interpret it? So I don't know if that helps at all.
Tresta: Yeah, yeah. That's perfect.
Callie: There's me answering a question with a story. It's the only way I know how to do
Megan Willome: There you go. Because
Callie: it.
Megan Willome: because Callie can only share stories.
Callie: It's it's the it's I got one I'm a one trick pony. It's all I got.
Tresta: I just
Callie: My goodness.
Megan Willome: Well, yeah, and with this, Tresta, you know, one question I wondered about. So there's there's a handing off of the generations now because the grandkids,
Callie: Hmm.
Megan Willome: right? Your some of your children are now parents. And I wonder if if any of that turning of the tide is in this story.
Callie: Hm.
Tresta: Hmm. Yeah. I like that. Yep. Good ideas for a second second round
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Tresta: on this piece.
Callie: I just love the shared language. I and and you said shared love language. I I I think that's so special and yeah, there you you've just done such a good job of showing this family's character.
Tresta: Yeah. Thanks guys.
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Thank you, said
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Is this getting easier to share? You know, knowing, okay, it's not where I want it to be, but here's what I got.
Tresta: It's yes, it's comforting to know I I mean, I scratched this out this morning because I'm nothing if not a procrastinator.
Megan Willome: Mm.
Callie: Ha ha.
Tresta: And I thought, they'll they'll fix it. They'll give me ideas. They'll point
Callie: Mm.
Tresta: it somewhere. Yeah.
Callie: I I love I mean, I I do think because we're friends, it's nice to be able to I I mean, I welcome, I'm excited to to hear what you guys think. I've also always thought that it's a form of like kneeling down with someone and and praying with them and helping them helping them pray. Not saying like, Jesus, the trusted didn't mean that. Like let me tell you what trusta really meant.
Tresta: Ha ha.
Callie: But like, you know, taking on your story and and holding it. And that's that's kind of what I kind of think of these critiques as, is a is a form of prayer, as a form of of a communal situation.
Megan Willome: Yeah. We're we're inviting each other into each other's stories. And and I think all of us prioritize we we want at the end of the day, for example, this is Tresta's piece, we want it to sound more Tresta
Callie: Mm, mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: than than it is right now, right? And
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: then, you know, for Megan's piece to be more Megan and Callie's piece to be more Callie, and that's where friendship comes in.
Callie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Megan Willome: We don't wanna sound like someone else or make one of us sound like the other. That's
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: no good.
Callie: I can remember once in a writer's group, a good friend of mine, I had taken a line out of one piece and I thought it was gonna work well in another one. And my friend Kara, you know, my it was my turn to be critiqued, and my friend Kara leaned in and said, I read that in another story. And I was like, Yeah, she's like, it worked better in that one. And it it didn't hurt my feelings at all. It was like she knew and admired me enough to help that story along. And it it it was it was really one of my favorite moments because it felt like I was seen and I was cared about. And you know, I mean I we know that as writers, we want, you know, that's that's us on the page. Even if we're writing fiction, that's us on
Megan Willome: Which three.
Callie: the page. And so to be seen and to be understood. I don't know, for me is very important. So
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Callie: I think a lot of times we interpret it as, I'll just do whatever you tell me to do. And I don't think that's a true critique. If if that's the if that's what you feel from the critiquer, then we're not doing the critiquers not doing their job.
Megan Willome: Well, and I would say also by that in that same situation, then the writer doesn't know themselves. You know, they don't know their voice. They don't
Callie: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: know their story. I mean, we're helping each other write our stories better, but I
Callie: yeah.
Megan Willome: think we each have a sense of here's who we are, here's what we do, here's what our voice
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: sounds like, and we're just helping each other do that better.
Callie: Yes, yes.
Megan Willome: Whereas someone who might be more new might be looking for all the secret tricks and tips to, you know, one, two, three, become bestseller.
Callie: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Surface sort of stuff. Yeah.
Megan Willome: Yeah. Yeah. Instead of writing deeply and honestly.
Callie: Mm. Amen.
Tresta: Such a privilege to write with you guys and to have have your eyes and minds. And also, I
Megan Willome: It is
Callie: Same. I love it. It's fantastic.
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: I have another t-shirt idea for us. It's
Megan Willome: Ooh.
Callie: good.
Tresta: more flannery instead of more cowbell. It's more more flannery. With an im
Callie: I love that.
Megan Willome: And yes.
Tresta: with her her face, you know, with her black glasses
Megan Willome: yeah.
Tresta: and maybe and a peacock.
Callie: I think that is the best.
Megan Willome: Well this would solve so many problems and also create them.
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: Such great stories to tell. Can't have
Megan Willome: Right.
Tresta: stories without problems.
Callie: That's right, that's right, that's right. that's so
Megan Willome: That's right. Yeah.
Callie: funny.
Megan Willome: Yeah. What what's at stake?
Callie: What's at stake? Where's Flannery?
Megan Willome: There you go, more flattering. All right, thank you, Teresa.
Callie: Yeah, thank you.
Megan Willome: So this week I have the trouble tip and I am not gonna share anything new. I I know that listeners won't be able to see this, but I am gonna show y'all. So I had jury duty Monday, which was yesterday and feels like a lifetime ago. But I knew that there was going to be some time at the beginning, and so I brought a project, a writing project to work on editing. And I have printed everything out. And why think we all know this? But I'm gonna speak for myself. I edit so much differently when I have something printed than when it's on the screen.
Callie: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: when it's on the screen. I tend to think this is pretty good. It just needs a little tweaking, you know. I just
Callie: Yeah. There's something in your brain. Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Willome: because it's so easy to cut and paste and move and whatever.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: but one thing I did yesterday is I had one, this is for a poem with a shared project with a friend, where the first poem it's like a list.
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: And as I look back at it, and so you can see I have a bunch of red marks, and you know, I'm doing almost like I would on the computer. And then I looked at it again and I'm like, this sucks. This is just this is just not good, and there's no way it's gonna get better. So how else could I do this? I have so many poems.
Callie: huh.
Tresta: Help us.
Megan Willome: Is there another one that could work? And
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: I found one. and reprinted. Now granted, I know there will be some things to tweak, but
Callie: Sure.
Megan Willome: in this new version it's like, yeah. But I don't I could have never seen it if I hadn't
Callie: Perfect.
Megan Willome: had it printed out. And this was
Callie: Yeah, I agree. I that's how I am too.
Megan Willome: this is a lot of pages. I think I've got over 200 pages here.
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: But it was it was
Tresta: Boy.
Megan Willome: worth it.
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Just to see more clearly. I don't know what I know Pallie, you
Callie: I think that's a great idea.
Megan Willome: always print things.
Callie: I always print things and I don't type until I absolutely have to. And then
Megan Willome: Mm.
Callie: I there's something in my brain that if I'm editing or revising on on the screen, to me, my brain is saying, this is done. Because it's it's it's on the screen. So there's some, you know, it's like a visual that I can't unblock. I can't tell myself actually it's not. And so I do the same thing. I'm like, yeah, this is this is fine. So when I print it out, I'll type it and print it out and and I take a a red pen or a green pen or you know, some different color. And it's so much more easier for me to take a look at it that way.
Megan Willome: Interesting. So you you wait longer before you put it in digital form. It sounds like
Callie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's the last it's the last thing that I I do. I'm I'm the essay today that that I did not submit because I'm not done with it. I think the reason that I'm having trouble with it, I think I need to type it up and and kind of see it and and then it will be easier for me to, you know, cut and paste and figure out what it needs and where it needs to go and all of that. so I'll get to that point where You know, I have no idea and the notebook just looks horrible. I can't figure out what's going on. So I'll type it up and and see
Megan Willome: Sure.
Callie: from there. So
Megan Willome: What what about you, Tresta, especially in the process with your book, you know, getting closer?
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: Well, yeah, I'll show you. This is the proof
Callie: No.
Tresta: copy of my book and all these tabs are are
Megan Willome: okay.
Tresta: errors that I missed on the screen that just
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: there you go.
Tresta: totally stand out in print.
Callie: Yeah, yeah.
Tresta: But I when I'm when I'm just doing t essay writing or whatever, I generally start on the computer.
Callie: Uh-huh.
Tresta: I just feel like there's less holding me back. but but if it's a longer project, I will go and I will print it after that and the and do my
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: editing there. And but then I also have you know handwritten notes everywhere. so that when I do go to start on an essay, I just I have all these fragments. It's it's kind of like
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: I know what the main course is for dinner and then I'm gonna fill in, you know, the the side dishes.
Callie: I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Willome: Yeah, that's a good analogy.
Tresta: I get I get hung up on my handwriting, to be honest. It's
Megan Willome: Mm. Yes.
Callie: Really.
Tresta: hard for me to just write fast and be messy. I need to get over that.
Callie: Yeah, no, I I mean for me it's my chance to slow down. I there's something about there's too much pressure for me to I don't know get things done when I'm on the computer. I don't I don't know why. That's probably because it's designed for efficiency, which is it's great. But yeah, I don't know. I like to write.
Megan Willome: But you know, just like slow, slow cooking, slow food. You know, we talked about slow reading when we did the Read
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: Well chapter. there's something to slow writing as well.
Callie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It it's also probably my form of faith is, you know, I've I've I understand that I process things slowly. And I think for it's my way of like redefining that word slow for myself. you know, 'cause you I at least when I was growing up, Quick Thinker was really good, you know, gets the answer fast, understands concepts introduced, you know, those are all things that are like, you know. good to have and I never had those.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: So it's my way of being
Tresta: Me neither.
Callie: like, you're okay. You're you're still you're still in the game. But I also think that
Megan Willome: And who you know?
Callie: like it w you have to do what works for you too. That's that's the magic I guess of writing is that we all come at this in a different in a different way. And, you know, you've got to do what works. I think a lot of times there's new writers who are like, Well, what are the rules? Well, I need a a yellow a yellow notebook and a pencil. And then then that's it. And, you know, that might not work for everybody. so anyway.
Megan Willome: Well, and that's why I I wanted us to share these tips because not every tip is even going to work for the three of us, much less
Callie: Right, right.
Megan Willome: people who are listening. But every now and then it might be, yeah, I think I might want to try that and see if that works for me.
Callie: Might give it a shot. Yeah.
Megan Willome: And if it does
Tresta: Well and I love that you took pen and paper in public too. I mean I would imagine everyone around you was staring at a screen. Not everyone, maybe not everyone, but I love seeing people in public with a real tangible book or piece of paper or taking notes.
Callie: Me too. Yeah, I love
Megan Willome: It felt kind of like an act of rebellion, you know?
Callie: that. It
Tresta: Yes,
Callie: is. It is. That's how I feel when I'm like I'm doing
Tresta: exactly. Yeah. Yep.
Megan Willome: Having pen and paper in this public space. Yeah, exactly. But it is good.
Tresta: Mm-hmm. In this economy?
Callie: And then it's true. It's true.
Megan Willome: All right. Well, next week we will do chapter seven, which is
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: Love the Long Sentence. I am looking forward to this because
Tresta: Mm.
Megan Willome: again, you know, Callie, you were just saying. That growing up, everything was about be quick, be quick, be quick.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: Slow is bad. the long sentence is a bit of a loss to art.
Callie: I think so.
Megan Willome: So, you know, we have a lot of, and there's a place, obviously, for short sentences, even sometimes the one-word sentence. It has a place.
Callie: Mm-hmm. I agree.
Megan Willome: But I'm looking forward to loving the long sentence with y'all next
Callie: Me too.
Megan Willome: week. the blessing for this week. I took from page 119 where she mentioned Dante and
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: she mentioned the circles of Dante's hell and purgatory, the long upward winding of Bunyan's Pilgrim, Odysseus's journey from Ithaca to Troy and home again. She's
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: just going through all of these different stories that have motion. So
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: from that I wrote for our blessing, blessed Are the storytellers our guides on the journey?
Callie: Hmm, I love that.
Megan Willome: So may we all be storytellers. All
Callie: Yeah, thank you.
Megan Willome: right. Thank y'all. And
Tresta: Thanks guys.
Megan Willome: yes, see you next time.
Callie: See you next time.
Megan Willome: Thank you for listening to Necessary Trouble as we read Marilyn McIntyre's Caring for Words in a Culture of Lies. Follow us at NecessaryTroublePodcast.substack.com. For more writing and trouble from us, visit our websites listed in the show notes.
Tresta: Right? Yes, six.
Megan Willome: Thank you so much. Tresta
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: sent up a little number for me because I wrote it down wrong. So yes, episode six, which is called Share Stories. So I'm Megan Willamy.
Tresta: I'm Tresta Payne.
Callie: And I'm Kelly Feyen.
Megan Willome: And Callie I saw when I saw that the chapter is titled Share Stories, I thought Callie could have written this.
Callie: Feel like I I am writing it. It's yeah,
Megan Willome: Mm.
Callie: like like like I said before, it's how I it's stories are how I breathe, it's it's how I live, everything I think everything I do as long as I have a story for it, I can keep going.
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm. And that's what you're always encouraging other writers to do, whether they're your your college students or or writers you're working with, you're helping them to find the story.
Callie: Yeah, what's what's the story here? What's the story here? Yeah, I remember when I had my first interview for a job for teaching, I decided that no matter what question was gonna come first, I was gonna tell a specif a specific story. I was just gonna I had it it didn't matter what they were gonna ask. And I'm sure it was gonna be something like, Why teaching, you know? Tell us a little bit about yourself, something general. So I had an idea of what that first one was going to be. But I I no matter what they were gonna ask, I was gonna tell a story. And I did. I got the job. I I decided
Megan Willome: wow. Okay.
Callie: like as long as I get a story in, I have I have an idea of what I can of what it is I have to say or what how I'm trying to say what I need to say. So
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: So are you talking in that scenario about a real life story from your life or a book that you've read?
Callie: Yeah, yeah, that's that's all I mean I I love fiction and I probably read fiction more than I read creative nonfiction. but I think in story, I order my life in in story. And so yeah, what I whatever I don't remember what the story was, but I knew that it was going to be something about you know, who who I was up until that point or my experience in education and schooling or something along those lines. But yes, it was going to be a true story.
Megan Willome: Well, you know, that's kind of what McIntyre is talking about in this chapter is
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: that our lives are stories, and stories are how we make sense of our lives. Because they're different ways to tell the same story, right?
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: And I love, I'm just gonna kick this off. You know, we always share at the beginning. some part of the chapter that we really liked and on page
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: 114 this is right at the beginning of the chapter she introduces she just has a list of lines that we're all going to recognize from scripture and I just found this so captivating so here's here's what she has take off your shoes you are on holy ground
Callie: Hm.
Megan Willome: here am I Lord But yet you have another son. I alone have survived to tell thee. This night will thy life be required of thee. This, my son who was dead, is alive again. Martha, Martha, you are busy about many things. Son, behold your mother.
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: And yeah, she's right. With just one line, it brings us home to those stories that we have read
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: so many times. And each with each one, as I read each one, I was like, it's that one. it's that one. I didn't feel bored. I felt excited to see them all
Callie: It's fun. Right.
Megan Willome: together like this.
Callie: You know, the other thing I found interesting about what you just read, and I didn't realize it until you were reading, and I was going over what else she had said that I enjoyed was this idea that each of each of those stories had some sort of what did she call it, negative capability.
Megan Willome: Yes.
Callie: yeah, like I mean, I guess maybe not the Martha Martha one, but you know, this idea that like my son was dead and now he's alive. you if if we ha if someone had said that, if that was a New York Times headline right now, that would be we wouldn't believe it, right? And and so you do have to have some negative capability of she talks about certain kinds of understanding that we have no access to except by means of story. And I think all of those had that in some in some ways, that we understand things that we can't always say or articulate or express without that story.
Megan Willome: Is that something
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: is n negative capability something you talk about with your students when you're helping them write?
Callie: I don't think I do it obviously, but I think that that's that is the way that I teach is you know, I
Megan Willome: Mm.
Callie: don't I don't think I've ever had a phrase for it up until up until now. And now I'm wondering if I ought to. But I do think that I've I've I think we do that when we're finding the metaphor, for example.
Megan Willome: Okay.
Callie: Like like or when we're you mentioned how we we all tell a story differently. Like we'll all experience something differently. And that Martha and Mary story, I think women, I bet all three of us would have a very different, or you know, maybe we'd have some similar, but I do think that we come to that story differently. I know that I have in different times of my life. And so to say, I I if I understand negative capability correctly, to come to a story, knowing that you might see it And interpret it differently as a 20-year-old and then again as a 50-year-old. You know, I think that that is opening us up to the different versions of ourselves and the different versions of stories and how they can embrace us and our lives from where we are. yeah, I don't know if I ever say this is what this is, but that would be cool to do that.
Megan Willome: Yeah, I was just curious.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: Tresta, the in that section about neg being negative capability, being negatively capable, she writes, I'd like to see negative capability listed among the virtues we
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: urge among the young. I was just thinking about all your years as a a homeschooling mom.
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: And this is such an interesting idea of a virtue.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: Yeah, and I'm still trying to pinpoint exactly what she means by negative capability. she goes on in that same paragraph, she says toll right after the sentence that you just read, Megan, she says tolerance for ambiguity is one of the most urgent disciplines and attitudes we can cultivate today. It is the opposite
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: of bigotry, rigidity, and culture-bound vision. There can be no
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: peacemaking or even effective negotiation without it. So Is sh so I think she's tying negative capability in with ambiguity. So I I sense that what she's saying is the opposite of having certainty, the opposite of a story that wraps up with a tidy bow. Or
Callie: Mm.
Tresta: that you know how when you're you're watching a movie and you're like, I know what's gonna happen next. I could write this stuff
Callie: What? Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Tresta: i if you have something that shocks you or surprises you or
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: that doesn't end with what feels like a solid conclusion, you just you have to sit without story longer.
Callie: Mm. And man, ambiguity, I I don't think I don't think a lot of us have tolerance for that. I mean, I don't I don't think that without a story we can do that. And I'm I'm just not sure. And I don't know if any of us has
Tresta: Yeah, absolutely.
Callie: the time. You know, I don't I mean I like to make the time to read stories. I love reading and I love stories. But I don't know if in society in general, I mean, have you guys noticed recently that or maybe this isn't recent, at the top of a news article or an essay or even a blog post, it will say this is how many minutes it should take you to read.
Tresta: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
Megan Willome: I think.
Callie: If you know what, this is how long it's gonna take me to read. If I like that topic sentence, I don't care. I don't care how many
Tresta: Right.
Callie: I'm gonna read it. If I don't, you know, you you have five sec five sentences maybe for for me to be intrigued and then I'm moving on. But like the second that I you know can't latch on, I'm done. So yeah, I don't know.
Tresta: w what I loved about homeschooling and tutoring high school students who were homeschooled was reading books together and like you were
Callie: Yes.
Tresta: saying, Callie, the different interpretations that you bring, it I think it I think that reading in community like that and then having a discussion about it, not writing book reports and all that, but actually having a discussion
Callie: No, yes.
Tresta: shows you that there is ambiguity where you maybe thought that it was you know, you ha you settled on an interpretation, but then somebody else
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: is like, Well I you know, I th I saw this or I thought that and
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: I just think that's so good. I miss that part of homeschooling. I I'm the mom, mother in law, grandma who gifts books every year. Every
Callie: Mm. I love that.
Megan Willome: I love it.
Tresta: year at Christmas, I give everybody, I give all the adults a book that I have read in the past, sometimes right off my shelf or sometimes I'll buy them their own new copy. and then I'm giving, you know, the grandkids children's books. But it's you know, they can do what they want with it. They can read it or not. but
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: some of my kids have read. In fact, our middle son, I gave him Peace Like a River a couple of years ago and he he reread
Megan Willome: that's such a great book.
Callie: Wow.
Tresta: it and told me, Mom, that's that's my favorite book I've ever read. So
Callie: my gosh.
Megan Willome: Wonderful.
Tresta: God, so rewarding. And we so we can
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: we can pull out those lines. I mean, I can't think of any off the top of my head right now, but
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: we did a lot of read alouds when they were growing up too. But when you have those shared stories, just like those
Callie: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Tresta: one liners that Megan read, all you need is that one line and you have a
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: whole conversation that you've just had with somebody who
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: also knows the story. And I think we I remember, this is this is a tangent, but I remember when I was in high school, you know, you had certain shows that were on certain nights of the week and everybody watched
Callie: Yeah,
Tresta: them. And you would go to school and
Callie: yes.
Tresta: talk about them. You don't have that anymore. You can watch whatever you want, whenever you want, and there's so many choices.
Callie: No, you don't. And not only that, but you can binge it, which I guess isn't terrible, although that word nauseates me. It just it feels
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: not okay at all. But you're right. There was like Thursday night, I remember we had Cosby and the family ties, and then eventually it was friends.
Tresta: Cosby. Yeah.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: And you knew the next day everyone was gonna be talking about it. And but I loved even when the teachers would read aloud to us and we could not wait to know what happens or like when the teacher would like slow it down because we knew we were getting to an ending and she would have to close it for the next day or he and we're all like, you know, that's so fun. And I just
Tresta: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Callie: don't know if that's happening anymore. But My dad also gives us books every every year. And one of the things I love is he will write, he'll write the year, and then there will be like maybe a Bible verse or a quote or something. It's not necessarily Came from the book, but it's like somehow tied to it. And so it's like this little, and I don't think he means to do it, but when I read it, I'm like, okay, what does this have to do? Like, what is he trying to tell me about this
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Callie: book and really who I am? Because the books that he gave me, even as a younger child, I was like, I can't read these books. I I don't know what I'm not a reader, I can't do this, but he continued to do that and it was never a shameful thing. Like I'm a writer. I I went to grad school because of my dad. And so he continued to just like he saw something that I did not see. and he kept pushing that. But I think that's just a great just a great a gift to give people books and you know you can't go wrong.
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Well, I I've heard this story before, but share with us about how your dad influenced you to go to grad school.
Callie: well, so we had let's see, I mean it it really was a dark and stormy night.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: It was October 31st, somewhere around I want to say like two thousand and eleven, two thousand and ten or something. And I had walking pneumonia and I was my kids were I think not quite three and not quite one, I think. So like two and zero, somewhere around there. And we'd gone trick-or-treating and I could barely walk from, you know, the hallway to the bedroom. And I felt like and this was my, you know, parenting, new parent mistake, but like you go trick-or-treating and then try to put your kid to bed. That's not going especially when like
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: they just realized what trick-or-treating is all about. It's like the best thing ever. So I think I put them to bed Like 4,000 times. Jesse was out of town. My parents were there. And you know, grandma and grandpa, they want to help, but they don't really know. Like, they're not gonna say no to my kids, right? That's just how how it works. And so I had to be the disciplinarian. I was just exhausted. Finally, I get them to sleep, and we go, I I'm in the living room and I sit down and I wave my hand around like the living room area, and I go, this. is not enough. I felt terrible about saying it, but I was like, it felt it, I was like, I am done. And
Tresta: Wow.
Callie: my dad said, what okay, so what what is it that you want? And it felt like a confession. I said, I want to write. I want to write. I had been taking like dab, I had a blog, I'd been dabbling in a little bit of like community workshops and things like that. And when I said that, he leaned forward and like clapped his hands and was like, okay. And like we just sat down and he's like, this is what we're gonna do. And he found something called care.com, which is like a babysitting service. He's like, All right, we're gonna, we're gonna find some babysitters. We're like, you know, obviously Jesse was in on this as well, but like he laid that plan for me, but it was up until like I mean it had been years. Even even when I was bef like right after I had graduated from college, he would send me books by Lauren Winner, Gregory Wolf, Scott Kearns, all those people in that all the people any
Megan Willome: people in your graduate program.
Callie: and he called them my friends. He's like, I I found a book from your friend. And I didn't know any of them, but like at you know, at the back of their books or image, there's always a little like insert about a graduate school. And he's like, I think you should I think you should do this. And, you know, my history of education of being schooled was not great. So I never thought I would ever apply to a grad school program. but yeah, I did. And my my feeling was like I will apply to this one or not. You know, either I get in, I'll apply a couple of times. if I don't get in, then I'm just not supposed to do it. But I, you know. But that's yeah. Yeah, I owe it to him to just keep he just gently I wouldn't even say it pushed me. He was just kinda like it was like he knew it was gonna happen, but and he was gonna wait forever. It didn't matter. He knew it was eventually gonna happen. So I I never felt like he was pushing me to like do something. It was like he she has it. She needs to open that gift and and do it, which is kind of how I think about with my kids too. Like they gotta do it. They have it. They just gotta figure it out. I can't figure it out.
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: I tell you, I I've always loved this story, but I love that you began it as you're telling us with it was actually a dark and stormy night. Because
Callie: It it literally was.
Megan Willome: we all know that that line, which is a cliche, which is
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: it can be used for good or for ill, but you grounded us with saying it was actually a dark and stormy night.
Callie: Right. And talk about ambiguous. You know, like you I could
Megan Willome: Yes.
Callie: I couldn't see literally and figuratively. I wasn't feeling well. I mean, it was just I kind of joke about the fact that it was a dark and stormy night, but it it really was.
Megan Willome: It's it's the perfect first line for you to share this story.
Tresta: Yeah. That's great.
Callie: Well, and I think that's what what good writers can do. We can take those Please note that I just said we and lumped myself in the good virus things, but we we can
Tresta: As you should, as you should.
Callie: we can take those cliches or those trite things, phrases, and make them make them real and make them genuine again. I think that that's a that's sort of our call to do that is to take those universal, I know what's gonna happen and and make it fresh. you know, why not? Why not do that? I think that's kind of a a cool exercise.
Megan Willome: Well, Tresca, what about you? What stood out in the chapter?
Tresta: Well, I I read it. That was my
Callie: I'm sorry.
Tresta: that was my highlighted one. I'm always afraid that someone else is gonna go first and and take my quote, but
Callie: Ha ha ha.
Tresta: so I got it in there. Tolerance for ambiguity is one of the most urgent
Megan Willome: Okay, that was it.
Tresta: disciplines and attitudes we can cultivate today.
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Okay.
Tresta: As opposed to certainty and all the right answers and owning people in an argument.
Callie: Hmm.
Megan Willome: But you know, it it is scary. I think maybe one reason people don't read fiction as much is because it does open you to ambiguity.
Tresta: Well, and it sometimes feels like is my conclusion the right one. I mean that's again, if you're reading something in solitude, at
Callie: Hmm.
Tresta: least for me, I'm like, Well, this is what this is what really stood out to me, but I was that the point? I don't know. I like to be in
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: Sure.
Tresta: I like to be in s discussion. have you guys read Theo of Golden?
Megan Willome: I have not.
Tresta: Callie, thumbs up or thumbs down. Okay. We'll let the listeners guess which way your thumb pointed. I
Megan Willome: Living it out with you.
Tresta: I haven't I haven't read it. but I just listened to him on a podcast today. The thing that stood out to me about it, about his interview, was that he said he aspired to be the person that the character that he made. You know, he wrote a character that because people speculate, I guess, that he is that the author is Theo of Golden. And
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: he's no, no, no, no. He's that's who I want to be.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: but I just thought I thought of someone, like I said, I haven't read the book, but I thought of somebody who would like to gift the book to after I read
Callie: Mm.
Tresta: it. And I just this this person is just at a point in their life th but they just have lost spiritual energy. That's how we've been framing it.
Callie: Right.
Tresta: and I don't know, it just seemed like a story that would I I don't know. Just something about that line of this is a character who I aspire to be, you know, I think that's one thing that I pull out of
Callie: Yeah. I think I think that's that's why it's so loved is the what what he what Theo does for the people in that town is just very s it's very sweet. It's it's it's very kind. I found the character a little creepy.
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: because I mean I don't want to do any I don't want to do any spoiler alerts, but what he does is sort of strange to me. And so I guess I maybe I didn't have that negative capability like it would be I I don't I don't imagine that ever happening. If he were to approach me in that way, I would have been freaked out. The
Tresta: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: other the other thing that bothered me was the stereotypes of the other people, especially the women. there were physical descriptions of the women and not so much the men, and that bothered me. and I also wanted to know why he was doing what he was doing, and you don't really understand it until until the end. but I know people who absolutely loved it. I mean, it's
Megan Willome: I do too.
Callie: like either either you love it or you you don't like it. There were just
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm.
Callie: I and I and I have people who I simply adore and that just love it. That just
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm.
Callie: love it. So I think it's you know, this is this is where I feel like stories are living things because to tell somebody who that they that loves a story to say like you're wrong that is that's not okay either, you know? So
Tresta: Right.
Megan Willome: No, of course not.
Callie: I would I so when I when I found out that like other people I I know and love love the story, I I continued to read it trying to figure out what it was that that they liked. And I can see, I can see what they what they liked about it. I just I guess I need a little more Flannery O'Connor. Well, yeah, somebody does.
Megan Willome: Yeah, no.
Tresta: Nobody dies in the book. Somebody dies. Okay.
Megan Willome: Well
Tresta: Spoiler.
Callie: Yeah,
Megan Willome: A little more a little more grotesque. A little more grotesque.
Callie: I mean there's definitely what's that? Yeah, it's not as very protecting. Yeah, yeah. It's it's it's yeah, there's just there's just some overtures that I that I have a real hard time with and it, you know, it made me kinda sad that this man was writing under I don't know, some presumptions about people, about races, about Poverty,
Tresta: So that
Callie: that sort of thing.
Tresta: yeah, so that brings me to my to my point about ambiguity. I because I've I have seen just people love it or hate it, like passionately w one way or another.
Callie: Yeah. Yeah.
Tresta: And having not read it myself, I just wonder if it is it missing ambiguity. it sounds like it's maybe a little bit too saccharine for some people. so maybe it's missing the ambiguity, whereas Flannery O'Connor
Callie: I think so. I think so. Yeah.
Tresta: I think she nails nails that. You don't know who the good guy or the bad guy is.
Callie: Yeah, yeah. And I and I think that's the grace, right? I mean, like that's the grace that I'm at least looking for. That disruption is like, I don't know who's bad and who who's right and who's wrong here. And that is really disturbing. And like she says, Marilyn McIntyre says stories complicate things. I can't remember where that was, but the stories that matter complicate our lives. And Flannery O'Connor, Tequila Mockingbird, Harry Potter, all these things really complicate my life. And I'm okay with that. I also think that there are certain, you know, like maybe you've been through enough in your life where you're like, I I need this story. So, for example, Twilight. I
Megan Willome: Yes.
Callie: don't know if I can say that that's going to complicate my life anymore. I remember reading it and telling Jesse, I know exactly what's going to happen, and I cannot put this book down. And it
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: it was a security blanket. I was in the depths of infant and toddler, you know, in the trenches, as they like to say. and I would I would devour that book. And I I can go back to it now and and I'm kind of like, this is really embarrassing. but I would never have been able to to handle Flannery O'Connor in in that point in my life. So I wonder if I would have loved Theo of Golden as a new mom.
Megan Willome: Maybe so.
Callie: Because sometimes that's just w that you know, I think stories come to us at at certain points. And the people that I'm thinking of who loved Theo, I also am thinking that came to them in a s in a at a certain point. And maybe if I read this in another thirty years I will feel that way. Or if I had read it when I was you know, a new mom in my thirties, I would have I would have loved it and it would have been quite a comfort to me. So yeah.
Megan Willome: Yeah, I was, you know, the the previous chapter, the one that's actually chapter five that we covered last time, Read Well,
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: has really stuck with me because reading reading well is something we grow in. And the more stories we read and the more variety, you know, with this one being called Share Stories, I think
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: that enhances our ability to read well. I read a fascinating article this last week that was about all of the tech bros who have been influenced by science fiction. Shocking, right? But how this this professor is a professor from Denmark was documenting how often They didn't read the story carefully. And so they have named their companies or their technologies after the things that that are the evil, right? because what they were seeing
Tresta: That's evil and bad. Yes. Yes.
Callie: That's hilarious.
Megan Willome: was something that was meeting them probably at a time when they were maybe a young teenager and they're
Callie: Sure.
Megan Willome: just excited because they were showing these covers. These were like Isaac Asimov and early radio.
Callie: Okay.
Megan Willome: Variant things like this, you know. And I can see you being a 13 year old and being super excited about this world and maybe this word, right? And then when you become a billionaire with
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: Right.
Megan Willome: your own company, you employ that word. But as if if they were encountering it for the first time, maybe
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: a more varied diet reading.
Callie: So what was it like what were some I'm thinking like Voldemort or what's the death spell like
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Okay, well the the one I'm familiar with that y'all would be familiar with too. This is fantasy. so Lord of the Rings.
Callie: Okay.
Megan Willome: Are y'all familiar with what a palantir is? It's the thing that's like a crystal ball. Okay.
Callie: I don't think so. yeah, yeah.
Megan Willome: And it's not a good thing. Everyone who uses the palantir opens themselves up to evil.
Callie: Yeah. this is hilarious.
Megan Willome: And it corrupts them and everyone around them. Well, there is a Palantir technologies that that cooperates
Tresta: Well
Callie: Well that I mean
Megan Willome: with the spy satellites. And I'm like, anyway, I just Yes, yes. Voldemort would be a little
Callie: That sounds about right.
Tresta: Wow. Maybe it is aptly named.
Callie: that is hilarious. That is really funny.
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: too on the nose, but it just I it behooves us. To read a variety of stories and to allow
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: ourselves to age with them, right?
Callie: I think so.
Megan Willome: Because twilight for you is always gonna kind of be comfort food. And that's okay.
Callie: It is, absolutely.
Megan Willome: You know you're eating ice cream and you're just having a good time. You don't you
Callie: Yeah. That's right. That's right.
Megan Willome: don't think you're getting a healthy meal.
Callie: Right, right. I'm very aware. I'm very aware. Although I will say upon reading though that series, and I you know, I have read them more than once, I do find that it's i Bella really does become independent and a little stronger than she was in the beginning, and I really like seeing that.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: and I did not see that in the in the in the beginning. You know, all I saw was like the love story. And yeah. What's interesting, there was an interview with Stephanie Meyer and one of the criticisms of the book, and I don't know if this is accurate or not, but one of the criticisms was she did not follow the rules of the werewolves and vampires. Like I I not rules, but you know, there's There's certain, you know, in folklore you're you ha you're supposed to kind of stay with those, I don't know, characteristics or whatever. And she didn't do that. But then the other thing people didn't like was that she said, they said, how come you write every how come everybody is beautiful and all of your in in the whole series, everybody's just like drop dead gorgeous? And she's like, Because that's how I wanted to do it. I thought
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: good for you. Just like I'm just gonna do
Megan Willome: Good for you.
Callie: what I wanna do. yeah, this is funny.
Megan Willome: All right, well I think it is time for the trouble seat. And
Callie: All right.
Megan Willome: this week it is Tresta. So Trester, you ready to read your piece? Okie dokie.
Tresta: I'm ready. Our shared language. Hot lemons, someone says under their breath. We are all at my son's house, and the grandbabies are tearing up the bachelor pad a bit, messing with their uncle's carefully placed antler collection, and rearranging his decor to their liking. He is too polite to say anything, but his older brother sees the toddlers wreaking havoc and gives me a knowing look, using the family vernacular to subtly ask for help in wrangling the little boys. Hot lemons means off limits, because our shared story is that twenty five years ago one of our daughters interpreted interpreted it that way. Our home was unchildproofed, but there were areas and items that were off limits to the kids, and they picked up on the concept without properly articulating the term, and it stuck. Some things are hot lemons, and at the moment my grandsons are the second generation of kids who need to learn that there is stuff you don't touch. Another favorite term is Bill. We use it like some people use dude, sometimes exclamatory, but mostly pejorative. Bill works in any place you could use dude, anytime you need to call out someone's tomfoolery or boneheadedness, and when it's really bad, we say Beal to stretch the emphasis further. I asked a family member a pretty pointed question that I thought I already knew the answer to the other day via text message, and their only response was Beal.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: My husband is the orator in the family and naturally tells the very best stories. He has probably never heard of Freytag's pyramid, but his hunting stories and retellings of biblical narratives always keep listeners' attention, and he once retold the entire book of Esther with no notes on a Sunday morning. Bill comes from a hunting story he heard thirty or more years ago about a bow hunter who had made a deer blind in a very conspicuous place. The number one goal of a bow hunter is to be inconspicuous. He was a newbie to the sport, a noob, as the kids say, and his name was Bill. Sometimes we combine Bill and Noob and say boob when you do something foolish or funny. This is our shared love language.
Callie: Ha ha ha.
Megan Willome: Thank you.
Callie: I love this piece. It's it's I think in one of my comments I said this is such a great character development of of the family without saying we
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: like we have inside jokes, right? You know, there there's a
Tresta: Right.
Callie: there's a th there's the theme, but the you the specifics of it is I love that. I mean hot lemons, I was hooked. Talking about a first sentence. I mean, I could I could see and feel and probably taste that. And then I'm like, why would why would we what are we talking about here? Why would we use this? And so I I love how you bring us into it and then you give us the why of what it is. and then Bill, my goodness. Yeah, I was I think that is hilarious. So so many, so many good things here.
Megan Willome: Yeah, I've I I've I have to I want a third. Is there a third
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: one you could do? I mean both hot lemons
Tresta: Not
Megan Willome: and bill are excellent.
Tresta: Yeah, there's more but not necessarily appropriate for podcasts.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Tresta: I don't wanna throw my family completely under the bus.
Callie: Under the bus. That's hilarious.
Megan Willome: Fair. Fair point. Well,
Callie: I would
Megan Willome: what I love is like what Callie said that this is a story about family without telling us that it's a story about family.
Callie: Yes.
Megan Willome: You know, you've got three generations here,
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: just offhandedly included in the essay without
Callie: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: without having to declare that at the beginning. And I thought that was really skilled.
Callie: Yeah, yeah. I think if you wanted to explore it more, you could bring us more into the story that happened 25 years ago that was interpreted that way. I think that would add a little more depth if you wanted to. And then the other Area is the paragraph where you say, My husband is the orator in the family and naturally tells the very best stories. I think the story with Esther, obviously, you don't want to tell the whole thing, but like maybe bringing us into the day he did this. and again, it might just develop it a little bit more. and then I mean, I I think or otherwise maybe don't don't have 'cause I don't think you need to have 'cause I wanna know more, like kind of takes me out of the essay. So I wanna know more about this. the one thing that I I thought as I was reading it was, okay, what what is at stake here? I mean, there's obviously the tension of how these stories came about, how hot lemons like that sounded like, you know, there's that there's there's a tense moment there. and Bill is tense as it's funny, but what is it that that's at stake that will make this really last line land so beautifully? This is our shared love language. And love can be a form of, you know, the conflict or tension. and Esther in and of itself is such a tense conflicted story that I think that might lend itself well to maybe developing that tension a little bit more.
Megan Willome: That. I was going
Tresta: Yeah.
Megan Willome: to point to that same paragraph, but a different suggestion,
Callie: Hmm.
Megan Willome: which is where you say that your husband naturally tells the very best stories. Well, I don't know your husband, but I'm going to beg to differ. Because you do tell wonderful stories,
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: but I think you tell them through writing. I mean, I I'm imagining
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: that your husband is maybe better just speaking on his feet, right?
Tresta: Yes, for sure, for sure.
Megan Willome: and so that could be another way that you could explore the way you tell stories very differently than him. You know, maybe it takes more time, maybe you know, I I don't know. But I think you're an excellent storyteller and this
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: essay is proof of it. You're just, I'm imagining, doing it in a very different form.
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: Yeah. Good stuff. Okay, so and it's short again, so I definitely have room to make it a little longer and and flesh it out. Callie, when you can you say more about what you mean by what is at stake in the story?
Callie: Like it you don't have to do anything like a big a big secret. I don't mean that, but what what when you read through this makes your heart feel a little not nervous, but like you're sharing something. Like you're you're giving us an insight into your family. But I guess it's it's like there's there's not much that's conflicting about it. Like it's a very sweet scene of it. So well, so Tresta,
Tresta: It needs more flannery. Needs more flannery. Okay. Noted.
Callie: you wrote something and I used it with my students once. and it, goodness, I have to find it. It it It's so descriptive. It's such a great scene and it's about scars. And I think you're on a I think you're on a s a roof doing something and you fell or There's and and I mean obviously I guess you could say what's at stake is the that you fell, that you hurt yourself, but there's there's something in you fell on a stake, that's what it was. Yes, I knew it was gruesome. I knew it was something gruesome, and obviously
Tresta: I I fell on a stake, literally. I fell on a stake literally. Huh. I don't I do not remember writing about that.
Megan Willome: Remember this okay.
Callie: that's tense. Like nobody's gonna say, that's not a conflict, that's not, but like you
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Callie: used that. situation, I guess what you might say like the obvious conflict to to do something else. Like you're talking about like scars or what's imprinted or I c I can't remember exactly, but like so I guess this is the story, but where, you know, what's the understory that's going on? Or like what about that that can you bring out that story of the hot lemons, like where you know, your daughter was Or not your daughter. Who was it? Was it your daughter? Yeah, it's so interpreted that way.
Tresta: It was my yeah, it was my daughter.
Callie: Here here's an example. my my oldest daughter, Hadley, for a really long time thought that bras were called super buns. I'm sure you guys know this story. And I never corrected her. I just I just never did because I thought it was hilarious and the the one one time we were At the mall, all four of us were at the mall, and I had a gift card to Victoria's Secret, and we went in and I could already see Hadley's
Megan Willome: Well,
Callie: eyes like you know, her favorite
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: colors pink, you know, all this stuff's happening. So Jesse says, You well, you go ahead and look around and I'll take the kids out for a little while. so the The ending of the story is he brings them back. They have the he's fed them chocolate. So they've got chocolate all over themselves. They take them to like the indoor park. You know, Hadley's got these like, you can already tell, like, she's out of control. And she sees she sees this pink, beautiful stuff, and she's like, my gosh. I remember her saying, Do they have five T? Do they have my size? Remember like the three T, five T do they have five
Tresta: Yeah.
Callie: T said that really loud. And then she sees. all that all the other stuff and she just yells super bonds and it was it was hilarious but I you I used that to in the middle of that to talk about how I wish my mom were here to help me because I was all by myself. It's not fun to shop by yourself. Like I wanted to, and and she was always so good at like, get this one, get this one, and you know, this will be fun or whatever. You know, and she's just that's just how my mom was. She made everything an adventure and something super fun. And so, like, as I'm writing that, like the first draft was just the joke. This is this was the adventure that we went on. But the more that and and it and I had it workshopped and I think somebody asked me what was at stake. And then I remembered like I was standing in line just kind of feeling sad because you know everybody had somebody else that they were with, and I wish that my mom was there. And you know, I was a new mom and and all of that. So I guess that's what I mean when I'm I'm saying like, what can you bring out of Esther? Like what brought your your husband to decide. he was going to tell the story of Esther. I think
Tresta: Mm-hmm.
Callie: that's really that'd be a great backstory. And then also what was this hot lemons? You know, like where did that come up with how did they interpret it? So I don't know if that helps at all.
Tresta: Yeah, yeah. That's perfect.
Callie: There's me answering a question with a story. It's the only way I know how to do
Megan Willome: There you go. Because
Callie: it.
Megan Willome: because Callie can only share stories.
Callie: It's it's the it's I got one I'm a one trick pony. It's all I got.
Tresta: I just
Callie: My goodness.
Megan Willome: Well, yeah, and with this, Tresta, you know, one question I wondered about. So there's there's a handing off of the generations now because the grandkids,
Callie: Hmm.
Megan Willome: right? Your some of your children are now parents. And I wonder if if any of that turning of the tide is in this story.
Callie: Hm.
Tresta: Hmm. Yeah. I like that. Yep. Good ideas for a second second round
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Tresta: on this piece.
Callie: I just love the shared language. I and and you said shared love language. I I I think that's so special and yeah, there you you've just done such a good job of showing this family's character.
Tresta: Yeah. Thanks guys.
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Thank you, said
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Is this getting easier to share? You know, knowing, okay, it's not where I want it to be, but here's what I got.
Tresta: It's yes, it's comforting to know I I mean, I scratched this out this morning because I'm nothing if not a procrastinator.
Megan Willome: Mm.
Callie: Ha ha.
Tresta: And I thought, they'll they'll fix it. They'll give me ideas. They'll point
Callie: Mm.
Tresta: it somewhere. Yeah.
Callie: I I love I mean, I I do think because we're friends, it's nice to be able to I I mean, I welcome, I'm excited to to hear what you guys think. I've also always thought that it's a form of like kneeling down with someone and and praying with them and helping them helping them pray. Not saying like, Jesus, the trusted didn't mean that. Like let me tell you what trusta really meant.
Tresta: Ha ha.
Callie: But like, you know, taking on your story and and holding it. And that's that's kind of what I kind of think of these critiques as, is a is a form of prayer, as a form of of a communal situation.
Megan Willome: Yeah. We're we're inviting each other into each other's stories. And and I think all of us prioritize we we want at the end of the day, for example, this is Tresta's piece, we want it to sound more Tresta
Callie: Mm, mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: than than it is right now, right? And
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: then, you know, for Megan's piece to be more Megan and Callie's piece to be more Callie, and that's where friendship comes in.
Callie: Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Megan Willome: We don't wanna sound like someone else or make one of us sound like the other. That's
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: no good.
Callie: I can remember once in a writer's group, a good friend of mine, I had taken a line out of one piece and I thought it was gonna work well in another one. And my friend Kara, you know, my it was my turn to be critiqued, and my friend Kara leaned in and said, I read that in another story. And I was like, Yeah, she's like, it worked better in that one. And it it didn't hurt my feelings at all. It was like she knew and admired me enough to help that story along. And it it it was it was really one of my favorite moments because it felt like I was seen and I was cared about. And you know, I mean I we know that as writers, we want, you know, that's that's us on the page. Even if we're writing fiction, that's us on
Megan Willome: Which three.
Callie: the page. And so to be seen and to be understood. I don't know, for me is very important. So
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm. Absolutely.
Callie: I think a lot of times we interpret it as, I'll just do whatever you tell me to do. And I don't think that's a true critique. If if that's the if that's what you feel from the critiquer, then we're not doing the critiquers not doing their job.
Megan Willome: Well, and I would say also by that in that same situation, then the writer doesn't know themselves. You know, they don't know their voice. They don't
Callie: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: know their story. I mean, we're helping each other write our stories better, but I
Callie: yeah.
Megan Willome: think we each have a sense of here's who we are, here's what we do, here's what our voice
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: sounds like, and we're just helping each other do that better.
Callie: Yes, yes.
Megan Willome: Whereas someone who might be more new might be looking for all the secret tricks and tips to, you know, one, two, three, become bestseller.
Callie: Yes. Yes. Yeah. Surface sort of stuff. Yeah.
Megan Willome: Yeah. Yeah. Instead of writing deeply and honestly.
Callie: Mm. Amen.
Tresta: Such a privilege to write with you guys and to have have your eyes and minds. And also, I
Megan Willome: It is
Callie: Same. I love it. It's fantastic.
Megan Willome: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: I have another t-shirt idea for us. It's
Megan Willome: Ooh.
Callie: good.
Tresta: more flannery instead of more cowbell. It's more more flannery. With an im
Callie: I love that.
Megan Willome: And yes.
Tresta: with her her face, you know, with her black glasses
Megan Willome: yeah.
Tresta: and maybe and a peacock.
Callie: I think that is the best.
Megan Willome: Well this would solve so many problems and also create them.
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: Such great stories to tell. Can't have
Megan Willome: Right.
Tresta: stories without problems.
Callie: That's right, that's right, that's right. that's so
Megan Willome: That's right. Yeah.
Callie: funny.
Megan Willome: Yeah. What what's at stake?
Callie: What's at stake? Where's Flannery?
Megan Willome: There you go, more flattering. All right, thank you, Teresa.
Callie: Yeah, thank you.
Megan Willome: So this week I have the trouble tip and I am not gonna share anything new. I I know that listeners won't be able to see this, but I am gonna show y'all. So I had jury duty Monday, which was yesterday and feels like a lifetime ago. But I knew that there was going to be some time at the beginning, and so I brought a project, a writing project to work on editing. And I have printed everything out. And why think we all know this? But I'm gonna speak for myself. I edit so much differently when I have something printed than when it's on the screen.
Callie: Yes. Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: when it's on the screen. I tend to think this is pretty good. It just needs a little tweaking, you know. I just
Callie: Yeah. There's something in your brain. Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Willome: because it's so easy to cut and paste and move and whatever.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: but one thing I did yesterday is I had one, this is for a poem with a shared project with a friend, where the first poem it's like a list.
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: And as I look back at it, and so you can see I have a bunch of red marks, and you know, I'm doing almost like I would on the computer. And then I looked at it again and I'm like, this sucks. This is just this is just not good, and there's no way it's gonna get better. So how else could I do this? I have so many poems.
Callie: huh.
Tresta: Help us.
Megan Willome: Is there another one that could work? And
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: I found one. and reprinted. Now granted, I know there will be some things to tweak, but
Callie: Sure.
Megan Willome: in this new version it's like, yeah. But I don't I could have never seen it if I hadn't
Callie: Perfect.
Megan Willome: had it printed out. And this was
Callie: Yeah, I agree. I that's how I am too.
Megan Willome: this is a lot of pages. I think I've got over 200 pages here.
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: But it was it was
Tresta: Boy.
Megan Willome: worth it.
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: Just to see more clearly. I don't know what I know Pallie, you
Callie: I think that's a great idea.
Megan Willome: always print things.
Callie: I always print things and I don't type until I absolutely have to. And then
Megan Willome: Mm.
Callie: I there's something in my brain that if I'm editing or revising on on the screen, to me, my brain is saying, this is done. Because it's it's it's on the screen. So there's some, you know, it's like a visual that I can't unblock. I can't tell myself actually it's not. And so I do the same thing. I'm like, yeah, this is this is fine. So when I print it out, I'll type it and print it out and and I take a a red pen or a green pen or you know, some different color. And it's so much more easier for me to take a look at it that way.
Megan Willome: Interesting. So you you wait longer before you put it in digital form. It sounds like
Callie: Yeah. Yeah. I mean it's the last it's the last thing that I I do. I'm I'm the essay today that that I did not submit because I'm not done with it. I think the reason that I'm having trouble with it, I think I need to type it up and and kind of see it and and then it will be easier for me to, you know, cut and paste and figure out what it needs and where it needs to go and all of that. so I'll get to that point where You know, I have no idea and the notebook just looks horrible. I can't figure out what's going on. So I'll type it up and and see
Megan Willome: Sure.
Callie: from there. So
Megan Willome: What what about you, Tresta, especially in the process with your book, you know, getting closer?
Callie: Yeah.
Tresta: Well, yeah, I'll show you. This is the proof
Callie: No.
Tresta: copy of my book and all these tabs are are
Megan Willome: okay.
Tresta: errors that I missed on the screen that just
Callie: Yeah.
Megan Willome: there you go.
Tresta: totally stand out in print.
Callie: Yeah, yeah.
Tresta: But I when I'm when I'm just doing t essay writing or whatever, I generally start on the computer.
Callie: Uh-huh.
Tresta: I just feel like there's less holding me back. but but if it's a longer project, I will go and I will print it after that and the and do my
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: editing there. And but then I also have you know handwritten notes everywhere. so that when I do go to start on an essay, I just I have all these fragments. It's it's kind of like
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Tresta: I know what the main course is for dinner and then I'm gonna fill in, you know, the the side dishes.
Callie: I love that. Yeah. Yeah.
Megan Willome: Yeah, that's a good analogy.
Tresta: I get I get hung up on my handwriting, to be honest. It's
Megan Willome: Mm. Yes.
Callie: Really.
Tresta: hard for me to just write fast and be messy. I need to get over that.
Callie: Yeah, no, I I mean for me it's my chance to slow down. I there's something about there's too much pressure for me to I don't know get things done when I'm on the computer. I don't I don't know why. That's probably because it's designed for efficiency, which is it's great. But yeah, I don't know. I like to write.
Megan Willome: But you know, just like slow, slow cooking, slow food. You know, we talked about slow reading when we did the Read
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: Well chapter. there's something to slow writing as well.
Callie: Mm-hmm. Yeah. It it's also probably my form of faith is, you know, I've I've I understand that I process things slowly. And I think for it's my way of like redefining that word slow for myself. you know, 'cause you I at least when I was growing up, Quick Thinker was really good, you know, gets the answer fast, understands concepts introduced, you know, those are all things that are like, you know. good to have and I never had those.
Megan Willome: Yeah.
Callie: So it's my way of being
Tresta: Me neither.
Callie: like, you're okay. You're you're still you're still in the game. But I also think that
Megan Willome: And who you know?
Callie: like it w you have to do what works for you too. That's that's the magic I guess of writing is that we all come at this in a different in a different way. And, you know, you've got to do what works. I think a lot of times there's new writers who are like, Well, what are the rules? Well, I need a a yellow a yellow notebook and a pencil. And then then that's it. And, you know, that might not work for everybody. so anyway.
Megan Willome: Well, and that's why I I wanted us to share these tips because not every tip is even going to work for the three of us, much less
Callie: Right, right.
Megan Willome: people who are listening. But every now and then it might be, yeah, I think I might want to try that and see if that works for me.
Callie: Might give it a shot. Yeah.
Megan Willome: And if it does
Tresta: Well and I love that you took pen and paper in public too. I mean I would imagine everyone around you was staring at a screen. Not everyone, maybe not everyone, but I love seeing people in public with a real tangible book or piece of paper or taking notes.
Callie: Me too. Yeah, I love
Megan Willome: It felt kind of like an act of rebellion, you know?
Callie: that. It
Tresta: Yes,
Callie: is. It is. That's how I feel when I'm like I'm doing
Tresta: exactly. Yeah. Yep.
Megan Willome: Having pen and paper in this public space. Yeah, exactly. But it is good.
Tresta: Mm-hmm. In this economy?
Callie: And then it's true. It's true.
Megan Willome: All right. Well, next week we will do chapter seven, which is
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: Love the Long Sentence. I am looking forward to this because
Tresta: Mm.
Megan Willome: again, you know, Callie, you were just saying. That growing up, everything was about be quick, be quick, be quick.
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: Slow is bad. the long sentence is a bit of a loss to art.
Callie: I think so.
Megan Willome: So, you know, we have a lot of, and there's a place, obviously, for short sentences, even sometimes the one-word sentence. It has a place.
Callie: Mm-hmm. I agree.
Megan Willome: But I'm looking forward to loving the long sentence with y'all next
Callie: Me too.
Megan Willome: week. the blessing for this week. I took from page 119 where she mentioned Dante and
Callie: Mm-hmm.
Megan Willome: she mentioned the circles of Dante's hell and purgatory, the long upward winding of Bunyan's Pilgrim, Odysseus's journey from Ithaca to Troy and home again. She's
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: just going through all of these different stories that have motion. So
Callie: Mm.
Megan Willome: from that I wrote for our blessing, blessed Are the storytellers our guides on the journey?
Callie: Hmm, I love that.
Megan Willome: So may we all be storytellers. All
Callie: Yeah, thank you.
Megan Willome: right. Thank y'all. And
Tresta: Thanks guys.
Megan Willome: yes, see you next time.
Callie: See you next time.
Megan Willome: Thank you for listening to Necessary Trouble as we read Marilyn McIntyre's Caring for Words in a Culture of Lies. Follow us at NecessaryTroublePodcast.substack.com. For more writing and trouble from us, visit our websites listed in the show notes.
