Writing Challenges: Lessons from a New Writer’s Journey with Jesse Hawley

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Welcome to the inside creative writing podcast.
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The weekly discussion of craft and technique for
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writers of fiction and creative nonfiction.
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And now here's your host,
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writer and educator,
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Brad Reid. Episode Episode 33.
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Today, we've got our first guest hosted episode
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with writer, Jesse Holly. Get ready for some
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great insights into the challenges faced by aspiring
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writers and some practical and effective tools to
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overcome them.
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Welcome back to the Inside Creative Writing Podcast.
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My name is Brad Reed and I am
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thrilled that you're spending some time with me
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today on the Inside Creative Writing Podcast.
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A few weeks ago, I announced a new
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feature on the show,
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occasional guest hosts.
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Now these are a little different than the
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interviews that I usually do in that,
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rather than me asking questions that I think
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our writing community
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would like to hear,
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a guest host instead puts together an entire
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segment of the show
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about a writing topic that they are especially
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passionate about.
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Now, I couldn't be more pleased that our
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first guest host is writer Jesse Holly.
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He's a long time supporter of the show.
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He's a member of the Patreon team and
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he has a lot of great,
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unique insights
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into what it means to be a writer.
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Now, Jesse says he's been writing for about
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two years and
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for a segment, he's looking back on the
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lesson that he's learned over those two years
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and the discoveries that he's made
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as a new writer. Now, I'm actually going
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to take exception
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to Jesse's claim that he's only been writing
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for two years but you'll have to wait
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until the wise words segment after we hear
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from Jesse for my reasoning behind that claim.
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So without further ado, I'd like to introduce
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guest host
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Jesse Holly
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and his great unique insights
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that are going to benefit writers of any
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experience level. I know they were beneficial
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and useful to me and I'm sure that
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they will be for you too.
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Thanks Brad and thank you listeners for taking
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the chance to listen to my writing experience
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and perhaps hopefully a little bit of writing
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insights.
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Before we get onto the show and what
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I'll be talking about, I thought I'd give
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you an introduction of who I am. Am.
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My name is Jesse Hawley, I live in
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Sydney Australia. It's a rainy day today outside
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you might hear the cars whipping past.
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My background is in science, actually I'd researched
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for a little bit with
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flies and spiders on how their diet affects
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their lifespan, their longevity.
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I've got a whole bunch of interests,
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but I found creative writing was the only
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true way to express myself wholly and the
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most effective way for transmitting feelings is through
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prose.
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As you well know studying the craft of
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creative writing is pretty overwhelming.
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It is a
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very complicated world, there's no rules which means
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you can get lost pretty easily but at
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the same time if you look around there
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is only rules which you can get paralyzed
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by.
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Of course there are plenty of writing gurus
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and writing idols to look up to but
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at the same time conversely there are also
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charlatans and emperor's new clothes, people espousing sort
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of pieces of suggestion or great pieces of
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writing with,
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once they're looked at properly, perhaps aren't as
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deep as, you know, they're claiming to be.
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Which, if you think about it, learning the
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craft of creative writing sounds about as messy,
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complicated, and confusing as the real world does
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or at least it does to me anyway.
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So on that note, that's exactly what I'll
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be talking about this episode.
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I'll be talking about how growing the craft
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of writing, becoming a better writer is actually
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like maturing almost as a person, developing your
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personality to be,
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a strong writer. I would like to tell
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you about my most memorable mistakes, the ones
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that hurt the most and were thus most
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memorable
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so you can be aware of them yourself.
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And finally, I'll be talking about what I
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think is the most important part of growth
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which is, seeking out and addressing your weaknesses
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and your blind spots, how to identify them,
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and then how to address them.
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And of course if I get the time
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I'll chuck in a couple of bonus lessons
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that I've picked up recently that might be
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helpful for you. Well here we go.
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So I think as a young writer I've
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been writing for two years I should say.
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My biggest mistake by far
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which is, one that perhaps will be familiar
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with you it'll be interesting it'll be interesting
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to know that actually is, not admitting my
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arrogance.
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If writing is maturing, well then this is
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sort of a hallmark of adolescence,
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you know, thinking that you understand and you're
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equipped enough to just go out there and,
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make a big splash. Anyone who attempts to
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say otherwise is
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trite and naive to what you can bring
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to the world. It's classic teenager thinking and
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it's sort of the thinking that plagued my
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own writing and my own stunted
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writing growth in the first six months. So,
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this is the Inside Creative Writing podcast. So
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I thought I'd pass on a quick story,
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in that vein. You've probably heard it. It's
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getting to be a bit of a platitude,
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but I'll say it anyway. So the story
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goes that,
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there was a professor
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traveling around Japan,
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looking to learn the art of Zen.
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And
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he, he's been to everyone but didn't really
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find anything that interesting. And and he was
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finally pointed towards this great Zen master. And
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he sat down, the the Zen master sat
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him down, and the professor instantly launched into
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telling him all of all of his preconceptions
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and ideas about how Zen works and what
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he knows about it and his travels already
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and his disappointments.
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As he was talking, he saw the Zen
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master had finished pouring his cup of tea
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and yet was still pouring. The tea was
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brimming over the cup and then began to
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cascade down the side and puddle up on
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the table. And the professor was like, woah,
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woah, woah, woah. I really don't need that
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much tea. It's sort of like dripping on
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me at the moment. And the Zen master
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said, yes. Well, this cup is your your
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mind and the the tea is your preconceptions
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and your ideas of zen. How do you
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expect me to teach you anything and fill
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you up if it's already full? Before I
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can teach you anything, you have to empty
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your cup. So the first six months of
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my writing, I sort of forgot that I
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didn't know anything and I wrote prolifically.
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I was looking outwards at the distance, the
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idea of finishing a novel, but I certainly
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wasn't looking at others and I doubly certainly
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wasn't looking inward at myself and my own
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weak points. I wrote a lot. I wrote
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fifty, sixty thousand words,
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that amounts to I suppose sort of teen
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poetry and the process of maturation
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caught on paper.
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And I'm reluctant to go and read it
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now for obvious reasons just like we wouldn't
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want to see our
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teen diaries. Yes. Well, that's the first lesson
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I learned, having to admit my own arrogance
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before I can proceed and grow honestly. Continuing
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with the aging analogy,
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whoever feels like an a complete adult. I
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know I certainly do not. And, we're all
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sort of perpetual teenagers in a way. What
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needed to happen next was to identify
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those shortcomings and those weak spots
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that most needed addressing most seriously
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in creative writing.
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So there's a quote by a playwright Eugene
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O'Neill that says, life is for each man
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a solitary cell whose walls are mirrors.
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But if that were the case, that would
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be sort of easy because you could see
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what's going on in the reflection and you
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could address it. You got
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egg on your face or messy hair or
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whatever.
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But, no, it's not that easy. Reflecting on
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our writing is difficult.
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We're obscured our view or perhaps we're standing
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too close and can't actually get the perspective
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to know that you need help, let alone
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where that help is. So if that is
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the case, how do you go about addressing
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your blind spots?
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Well, I found one easy way is to
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seek help from others. What better way of
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seeing, your shortcomings than through the eyes of
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somebody else and through earnest advice.
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A good way I've found of finding out
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your ignorance is to turn it inside out
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to avert
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yourself,
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and throw yourself
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into the domain of judgment and advice.
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It's very difficult to get advice or answers
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when your questions are contained only
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in the vacuum of your mind with no
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access to outside
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help. So academically,
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I'm pretty average. Smack bang, actually.
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But I've grown a lot and managed to
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succeed at university
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through
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bearing my ignorance
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time and time again
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publicly
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for better or for worse I you know
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not happily but I'll put my hand up
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to let people know what I don't know
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and thus will be steered on the right
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path
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red faced
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you know hard thumping
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but I'll I'll have put myself out there
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to be corrected.
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You've got to you've got to be naked
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before you can be corrected I think. And
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when it comes to
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the craft of creative writing I don't think
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it's any different. So the standard advice is
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don't show your first draft to anybody and
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that is good advice. It's strong advice. People
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aren't used to seeing first drafts and it,
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you know, it's probably
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a piece of shit.
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It probably
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is. And in some ways, it's difficult to
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fault that advice, but I have faulted it
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time and time again in the last two
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years. And the lessons that have come from
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that have been the most memorable.
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So I've given excerpts of my first draft
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to friends which is okay and I've heard
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good advice.
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I've given it to co workers
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and my boss and embarrassingly,
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listeners,
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I've given my first draft to total strangers.
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Two of them. They're not strangers now, of
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course. They're, Sally and Catherine.
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And, I was in a cafe and I
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saw Sally at least reading outside a book
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and I don't know what I was thinking.
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I was working on my story on my
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laptop,
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and I took a deep breath and I
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took my laptop outside. I was like, hey.
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How's it going? And I described
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I've been writing for a year or so.
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And I described my my plight, my writer's
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plight, and I gave her the first draft.
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And it was a difficult
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00:10:08,250 --> 00:10:10,250
it was a painful wait. But ten minutes
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later, I went and saved her, scooped her
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00:10:12,009 --> 00:10:14,330
up from the quagmire that was that first
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draft. And it was a shameful piece of
280
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writing.
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And,
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the advice that she gave and that was
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given by my honest boss and by the
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other stranger that I imposed myself on
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was earnest and incisive
286
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and it wounded my ego sort of laid
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me down from writing for days.
288
00:10:33,414 --> 00:10:36,134
But each of those pieces of advice are
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now turning points in my writing growth such
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00:10:39,029 --> 00:10:39,889
that I can
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00:10:40,350 --> 00:10:40,850
identify
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exactly what everybody said as landmarks
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and they're meaningful ones because
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they were the most beneficial in helping me
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00:10:49,549 --> 00:10:51,855
grow. So if you're interested the advice was
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too heavy handed, too too many illusions and
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parallels instead of just being honest with yourself.
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The other one was,
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you're fitting too much,
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sort of
301
00:11:01,855 --> 00:11:04,750
meaning and verbosity into each sentence making it
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00:11:04,750 --> 00:11:06,669
difficult to wade through you've got to ease
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back and and pare back your communication
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and it was also you know this is
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too close to home it sounds like you're
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just sort of diarizing and it it might
307
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be therapeutic but
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yes perhaps you should just tell a story.
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So all those three pieces of advice are
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fantastic
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and had I not shared my first draft
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they wouldn't have cut so deep and allowed
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00:11:27,565 --> 00:11:29,565
me to heal and move on, as I
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00:11:29,565 --> 00:11:30,865
have and I'm very grateful.
315
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So you identify your weak spots by,
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00:11:34,179 --> 00:11:36,740
seeking help from others, but, of course, you
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can find it in yourself and reflect. So
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00:11:39,220 --> 00:11:40,759
a good way to do that well,
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the main way, what you should be filling
320
00:11:43,220 --> 00:11:44,980
most of your non writing time with, I
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00:11:44,980 --> 00:11:45,480
suggest,
322
00:11:45,975 --> 00:11:49,174
is, reading. Immerse yourself in great literature. Cast
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yourself before the minds of of the greats.
324
00:11:51,654 --> 00:11:52,154
And
325
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that's just such an organic way to grow
326
00:11:55,975 --> 00:11:58,230
every aspect of yourself as an artist.
327
00:11:58,789 --> 00:12:02,649
It'll give you techniques, feelings, emotions, thoughts, maturity.
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00:12:03,269 --> 00:12:05,769
Reading is just sort of like a wormhole
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jumping through personal growth and development living others
330
00:12:09,509 --> 00:12:11,049
lives and being in other's shoes.
331
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And, for your writing, it's just,
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00:12:15,615 --> 00:12:16,834
inimitable inimitable.
333
00:12:17,454 --> 00:12:19,695
It's difficult to find those lessons elsewhere outside
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00:12:19,695 --> 00:12:22,414
of literature. On the other end, seek out
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00:12:22,414 --> 00:12:24,495
poor literature. So I recommended this on a
336
00:12:24,495 --> 00:12:27,179
recent episode of Inside Creative Writing, but not
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00:12:27,179 --> 00:12:28,399
just to get inspiration
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00:12:28,779 --> 00:12:32,000
by reading sort of shallow pieces of literature
339
00:12:32,460 --> 00:12:34,799
but upon reading it you might see,
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00:12:35,179 --> 00:12:37,259
reflections of yourself and something that you are
341
00:12:37,259 --> 00:12:39,179
doing and something that you have not that
342
00:12:39,179 --> 00:12:41,215
much respect for and what greater,
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00:12:41,595 --> 00:12:42,495
kick in the butt
344
00:12:43,195 --> 00:12:45,774
to move on and develop your craft than
345
00:12:45,915 --> 00:12:47,134
seeing yourself
346
00:12:47,435 --> 00:12:49,035
in a piece of art that you don't
347
00:12:49,035 --> 00:12:51,435
really respect. That's a, that's a great way
348
00:12:51,435 --> 00:12:54,259
to self diagnose that is outside of literature.
349
00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:55,759
One of the great ways that I've found
350
00:12:55,759 --> 00:12:58,639
to develop my writing skills has been through
351
00:12:58,639 --> 00:13:00,580
how to write books. So as an example,
352
00:13:01,120 --> 00:13:02,820
my biggest weakness in writing,
353
00:13:04,159 --> 00:13:05,919
in the first year or so was not
354
00:13:05,919 --> 00:13:08,225
using narrative summary. I wasn't summarizing a thing.
355
00:13:08,225 --> 00:13:11,044
I was literally taking readers through each moment
356
00:13:11,264 --> 00:13:13,504
moment by moment, scene by scene in a
357
00:13:13,504 --> 00:13:16,065
grueling, I don't know, first person perspective style
358
00:13:16,065 --> 00:13:17,745
like the Blair Witch Project or something, though
359
00:13:17,745 --> 00:13:20,304
even that's got cuts. And I wasn't even
360
00:13:20,304 --> 00:13:20,804
aware
361
00:13:21,320 --> 00:13:23,980
that narrative summary or to summarize something
362
00:13:24,519 --> 00:13:25,259
had a name,
363
00:13:25,639 --> 00:13:27,720
and I wasn't aware that I wasn't using
364
00:13:27,720 --> 00:13:31,500
it. So by reading how to writing books
365
00:13:31,720 --> 00:13:33,879
and books on craft, I was actually able
366
00:13:33,879 --> 00:13:36,360
to slap a label onto the symptom of
367
00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:36,975
my own
368
00:13:37,534 --> 00:13:38,034
sick
369
00:13:38,975 --> 00:13:39,475
writing.
370
00:13:40,254 --> 00:13:41,074
If you're interested,
371
00:13:41,774 --> 00:13:44,254
my three favorite books on the craft of
372
00:13:44,254 --> 00:13:44,754
writing,
373
00:13:45,534 --> 00:13:48,115
Techniques of the Selling Writer by Dwight Swain.
374
00:13:48,254 --> 00:13:50,095
That's great for all the fundamentals and that
375
00:13:50,095 --> 00:13:51,794
really got me going in the right direction,
376
00:13:51,855 --> 00:13:52,434
I think.
377
00:13:53,190 --> 00:13:56,570
Secondly, I'm a sucker for beautifully constructed sentences.
378
00:13:57,110 --> 00:13:59,450
So my other favorite is Building Great Sentences
379
00:13:59,590 --> 00:14:00,809
by Brooks Landon.
380
00:14:01,190 --> 00:14:02,009
And thirdly,
381
00:14:02,470 --> 00:14:05,129
Reading Like a Writer by Francine Prose.
382
00:14:05,509 --> 00:14:07,769
This is a wonderful book in many regards,
383
00:14:08,154 --> 00:14:11,034
not least for the appendix, which has actually
384
00:14:11,034 --> 00:14:12,714
got a list of great literature that you
385
00:14:12,714 --> 00:14:14,654
ought to catch up on if you're interested
386
00:14:15,034 --> 00:14:17,674
in, having a whiz bang journey through the
387
00:14:17,674 --> 00:14:20,714
history of great books. I really recommend that
388
00:14:20,714 --> 00:14:22,240
too. And if you're keen on getting that,
389
00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,639
list of recommended reading, you can just go
390
00:14:24,639 --> 00:14:26,720
to the Wikipedia page of the book Reading
391
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:28,320
Like a Writer and it's got its own
392
00:14:28,320 --> 00:14:31,679
little subheading. I'd recommend that. On that note,
393
00:14:31,679 --> 00:14:35,679
on advice and seeking advice from things like
394
00:14:35,679 --> 00:14:37,914
how to write books, another big mistake that
395
00:14:37,914 --> 00:14:40,955
I made was taking advice too literally. So
396
00:14:40,955 --> 00:14:41,455
imagine
397
00:14:41,914 --> 00:14:43,674
if you if there were a book, How
398
00:14:43,674 --> 00:14:45,774
to be a perfect human being.
399
00:14:46,394 --> 00:14:48,154
It's pretty clear that there is no such
400
00:14:48,154 --> 00:14:50,715
thing as a perfect human being in any
401
00:14:50,715 --> 00:14:51,215
regard.
402
00:14:52,009 --> 00:14:55,370
I regularly flout social etiquette and taboos and
403
00:14:55,370 --> 00:14:57,529
I certainly wouldn't change that which is probably
404
00:14:57,529 --> 00:14:59,210
what would be recommended. And I know those
405
00:14:59,210 --> 00:15:01,769
who know me, wouldn't want my personality to
406
00:15:01,769 --> 00:15:04,330
be corrected, inverted commas, by a book of
407
00:15:04,330 --> 00:15:07,024
rules either. So these things should certainly not
408
00:15:07,024 --> 00:15:09,264
apply to you and your personality as a
409
00:15:09,264 --> 00:15:09,764
writer.
410
00:15:10,705 --> 00:15:12,245
That previous book that I recommended,
411
00:15:12,625 --> 00:15:14,945
Reading Like a Writer, the thesis of the
412
00:15:14,945 --> 00:15:18,389
whole thing is great works can come from
413
00:15:18,389 --> 00:15:20,149
flouting all of the rules, none of the
414
00:15:20,149 --> 00:15:24,389
rules. Genuine, honest expression and writing is where
415
00:15:24,389 --> 00:15:26,629
the beauty and grandeur comes. It's not by
416
00:15:26,629 --> 00:15:29,429
following rules or breaking rules, it's the honesty
417
00:15:29,429 --> 00:15:30,170
that transcends
418
00:15:30,914 --> 00:15:33,554
all of them. When I finally admitted my
419
00:15:33,554 --> 00:15:35,154
ignorance that I didn't know what was going
420
00:15:35,154 --> 00:15:37,394
on as a writer, the pendulum swung too
421
00:15:37,394 --> 00:15:39,075
far the other way, and it fell into
422
00:15:39,075 --> 00:15:40,995
that saying, don't have your mind so open
423
00:15:40,995 --> 00:15:42,834
that your brains fall out. Because that's exactly
424
00:15:42,834 --> 00:15:44,940
what happened. I took on the world of
425
00:15:44,940 --> 00:15:47,039
rules and recommendations and suggestions,
426
00:15:48,059 --> 00:15:48,559
these,
427
00:15:49,100 --> 00:15:51,279
cliches and structures and formulae
428
00:15:51,659 --> 00:15:54,059
and they were so overwhelming they just sort
429
00:15:54,059 --> 00:15:55,419
of collapsed on top of me and my
430
00:15:55,419 --> 00:15:57,740
writing became a victim of everyone's words at
431
00:15:57,740 --> 00:15:59,144
the same time which is just such a
432
00:15:59,144 --> 00:15:59,804
bad idea.
433
00:16:00,424 --> 00:16:02,424
So my recommendation here to avoid making the
434
00:16:02,424 --> 00:16:03,644
same mistake is
435
00:16:04,184 --> 00:16:07,784
read widely instructional books, listen widely, but keep
436
00:16:07,784 --> 00:16:08,845
the voice of yourself
437
00:16:09,544 --> 00:16:12,125
stronger than the voice of others throughout
438
00:16:12,429 --> 00:16:15,870
and incorporate and evolve, but don't concede and
439
00:16:15,870 --> 00:16:16,370
conform.
440
00:16:16,830 --> 00:16:18,910
Before we leave the topic of improving your
441
00:16:18,910 --> 00:16:22,509
writing through self awareness and, identifying your weak
442
00:16:22,509 --> 00:16:24,509
spots and growth there, I thought I'd talk
443
00:16:24,509 --> 00:16:26,029
about something that might be a little bit,
444
00:16:26,830 --> 00:16:27,330
idiosyncratic
445
00:16:27,710 --> 00:16:30,235
or personal, but I think it's really important
446
00:16:30,235 --> 00:16:32,475
to know yourself, know what makes you special,
447
00:16:32,475 --> 00:16:34,634
know what makes you challenging, your strengths and
448
00:16:34,634 --> 00:16:35,295
your weaknesses
449
00:16:35,915 --> 00:16:38,394
quite intimately and how to work around those
450
00:16:38,394 --> 00:16:40,379
and incorporate them into your writing style. So
451
00:16:40,460 --> 00:16:41,740
as a bit of an example of what
452
00:16:41,740 --> 00:16:43,419
I'm talking about because it might sound a
453
00:16:43,419 --> 00:16:45,660
little bit strange, I'll tell you about myself,
454
00:16:45,660 --> 00:16:47,820
some of the the things about me that
455
00:16:47,820 --> 00:16:49,899
make me challenging. I get caught up on
456
00:16:49,899 --> 00:16:52,620
details very easily, the minutiae of tasks and
457
00:16:52,620 --> 00:16:54,539
I lose track of the forest for the
458
00:16:54,539 --> 00:16:55,954
trees. I'm very sentimental.
459
00:16:56,254 --> 00:16:58,815
I I dwell on feelings and the emotion
460
00:16:58,815 --> 00:16:59,475
in events.
461
00:17:00,254 --> 00:17:02,334
I'm self involved a little bit. I can
462
00:17:02,334 --> 00:17:05,054
often overvalue my own opinions and insights at
463
00:17:05,054 --> 00:17:06,894
the cost of others and I love fun
464
00:17:06,894 --> 00:17:08,335
a little bit too much. I drink quite
465
00:17:08,335 --> 00:17:10,490
a bit, stay out late, and,
466
00:17:10,789 --> 00:17:13,190
that's that's challenging. So I know that that
467
00:17:13,190 --> 00:17:16,170
affects my craft because my obsession for details
468
00:17:16,630 --> 00:17:18,170
and my dwelling on feelings,
469
00:17:19,350 --> 00:17:22,470
stunts the momentum of my novel writing and
470
00:17:22,470 --> 00:17:24,705
it has a tendency to make it melodramatic
471
00:17:25,085 --> 00:17:27,164
as opposed to having a movement and I
472
00:17:27,164 --> 00:17:28,705
I pretty easily forget storytelling
473
00:17:29,085 --> 00:17:30,845
at the cost of things that seem special
474
00:17:30,845 --> 00:17:33,244
to me. And, of course, this incorporates me
475
00:17:33,244 --> 00:17:33,744
overvaluing
476
00:17:34,525 --> 00:17:35,825
my feelings and insights.
477
00:17:36,299 --> 00:17:38,220
Me loving fun too much a little bit
478
00:17:38,220 --> 00:17:41,019
is obviously depriving actually writing time. So now
479
00:17:41,019 --> 00:17:43,500
that I'm aware of these four shortcomings or
480
00:17:43,500 --> 00:17:45,500
facets of my personality, I know how to
481
00:17:45,500 --> 00:17:47,600
work around them and incorporate them into writing.
482
00:17:47,660 --> 00:17:50,460
It's really important to identify these things about
483
00:17:50,460 --> 00:17:50,960
ourselves,
484
00:17:51,365 --> 00:17:53,445
I think, before we can actually start addressing
485
00:17:53,445 --> 00:17:54,085
them and,
486
00:17:54,565 --> 00:17:56,965
making them work with our creative writing life
487
00:17:56,965 --> 00:17:58,664
if that's what we've decided to do.
488
00:17:59,525 --> 00:18:01,365
Okay. So before we move on, I thought
489
00:18:01,365 --> 00:18:03,765
we'd regroup. So far, we've spoken about the
490
00:18:03,765 --> 00:18:07,224
importance of admitting our ignorance and using others,
491
00:18:07,339 --> 00:18:09,440
both friends and family, and also,
492
00:18:10,380 --> 00:18:14,079
writers, of course, and wonderful resources and people
493
00:18:14,140 --> 00:18:15,279
like Brad Reid,
494
00:18:15,820 --> 00:18:17,740
to identify our weak points and how they're
495
00:18:17,740 --> 00:18:18,240
important
496
00:18:18,700 --> 00:18:19,519
in growing.
497
00:18:20,144 --> 00:18:21,984
But before I finish up and pass on
498
00:18:21,984 --> 00:18:23,825
some of the latest lessons I've learned, I
499
00:18:23,825 --> 00:18:25,984
thought I'd provide a little bit of writing
500
00:18:25,984 --> 00:18:28,725
self help. Here's a quote from Thomas Mann.
501
00:18:29,265 --> 00:18:31,744
A writer is somebody for whom writing is
502
00:18:31,744 --> 00:18:34,164
more difficult than it is for other people.
503
00:18:35,720 --> 00:18:38,460
As you well know, again, writing is difficult
504
00:18:38,759 --> 00:18:41,160
not just in the ocean of techniques and
505
00:18:41,160 --> 00:18:41,660
experience
506
00:18:42,039 --> 00:18:44,059
and work and time that it demands,
507
00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:45,259
but psychologically
508
00:18:45,799 --> 00:18:48,220
writing is really easily defeating.
509
00:18:48,519 --> 00:18:50,380
It's confronting. It's challenging.
510
00:18:50,815 --> 00:18:52,835
It's engulfing for your life
511
00:18:53,615 --> 00:18:54,115
waking
512
00:18:54,575 --> 00:18:56,414
and the dream world or at least it
513
00:18:56,414 --> 00:18:57,234
is for me.
514
00:18:57,615 --> 00:19:00,095
And, yeah, writing is difficult. So I think
515
00:19:00,095 --> 00:19:01,615
the more we can be reminded of how
516
00:19:01,615 --> 00:19:03,855
difficult it is and that there are kindred
517
00:19:03,855 --> 00:19:06,549
spirits that are going through similar struggles, the
518
00:19:06,549 --> 00:19:08,950
easier the whole journey is to bear. So
519
00:19:08,950 --> 00:19:09,830
on that note,
520
00:19:10,390 --> 00:19:12,710
sorry to bring the show back to myself
521
00:19:12,710 --> 00:19:13,910
again. Case in point.
522
00:19:14,470 --> 00:19:16,549
I've been living the craft of being a
523
00:19:16,549 --> 00:19:18,549
human for twenty seven years now, twenty seven
524
00:19:18,549 --> 00:19:21,304
years old. I've been studying and introspecting and
525
00:19:21,304 --> 00:19:22,365
and thinking and developing
526
00:19:22,744 --> 00:19:25,065
myself that whole time, I'd say. And I'm
527
00:19:25,065 --> 00:19:28,184
I'm pretty competent in wielding my persona. I
528
00:19:28,184 --> 00:19:30,125
know what actions do what consequences,
529
00:19:30,504 --> 00:19:32,524
which social mood calls for which conduct,
530
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:33,380
etcetera.
531
00:19:33,839 --> 00:19:34,160
But,
532
00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:37,519
like a human being, I vary on a
533
00:19:37,519 --> 00:19:38,820
day by day basis,
534
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,259
hourly basis
535
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:42,019
based on biochemistry,
536
00:19:42,400 --> 00:19:44,079
mood, things that happen in my life. And
537
00:19:44,079 --> 00:19:46,304
I'm a fluctuating being. I know that, you
538
00:19:46,304 --> 00:19:48,404
know, a flat mood means I'll have lackluster
539
00:19:48,464 --> 00:19:51,024
ideas. If I make a mistake or embarrass
540
00:19:51,024 --> 00:19:52,944
myself, I'll know that I look around and
541
00:19:52,944 --> 00:19:54,625
challenge everything in my life and everything that
542
00:19:54,625 --> 00:19:57,204
I've ever created and I'll reevaluate it
543
00:19:57,585 --> 00:19:59,684
colored by that past embarrassing experience.
544
00:20:00,144 --> 00:20:02,099
And, you know, it's very easy to look
545
00:20:02,099 --> 00:20:02,900
at what you've done and,
546
00:20:03,779 --> 00:20:06,500
be embarrassed by it. But I've been doing
547
00:20:06,500 --> 00:20:08,180
this for long enough now, and by doing
548
00:20:08,180 --> 00:20:10,180
this, I mean living, that I know that
549
00:20:10,180 --> 00:20:11,000
this is exactly
550
00:20:11,380 --> 00:20:12,359
the human condition.
551
00:20:12,660 --> 00:20:15,000
We vary. We're not constant. We're not robots.
552
00:20:15,704 --> 00:20:18,585
We're we're quite sensitive beings. And I know
553
00:20:18,585 --> 00:20:20,444
that these moods are transient
554
00:20:20,825 --> 00:20:22,825
and they come and they go like anything
555
00:20:22,825 --> 00:20:23,325
else.
556
00:20:23,784 --> 00:20:25,865
They don't affect me and make me think
557
00:20:25,865 --> 00:20:28,265
that I'm a poor craftsman at being a
558
00:20:28,265 --> 00:20:30,660
human being. I know that I'm a successful
559
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:31,619
mature person
560
00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:34,559
and I don't let those varying moods, which
561
00:20:34,559 --> 00:20:35,299
are inevitable
562
00:20:35,840 --> 00:20:36,660
and uncontrollable,
563
00:20:37,519 --> 00:20:40,259
I don't let them affect my broader understanding
564
00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:41,220
of myself.
565
00:20:41,554 --> 00:20:44,194
And this is this totally applies to your
566
00:20:44,194 --> 00:20:45,634
craft as a writer I'd say or it
567
00:20:45,634 --> 00:20:48,275
certainly does with me. Some days I'll I'll
568
00:20:48,275 --> 00:20:50,375
wake up and I'll be in a dreamy
569
00:20:50,515 --> 00:20:52,674
reverie and ideas will be pouring in and
570
00:20:52,674 --> 00:20:54,674
through my fingertips and I'll be writing and
571
00:20:54,674 --> 00:20:56,880
typing prose and movement and something that I
572
00:20:56,880 --> 00:20:58,319
know will be gold and I'll be proud
573
00:20:58,319 --> 00:21:00,799
of for a long while and there'll be
574
00:21:00,799 --> 00:21:02,639
other days 95%
575
00:21:02,639 --> 00:21:04,960
of the time in which I'm flat my
576
00:21:04,960 --> 00:21:07,359
ideas are generic and cliche and they'll be
577
00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:09,200
written out and adapted and they won't be
578
00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,545
sufficient for what I want.
579
00:21:11,025 --> 00:21:13,105
I've had to grapple with and come to
580
00:21:13,105 --> 00:21:14,884
terms with how writing
581
00:21:15,184 --> 00:21:17,924
and our craft varies just like a mood
582
00:21:18,065 --> 00:21:20,545
and just like our sense of self, but
583
00:21:20,545 --> 00:21:21,525
don't let those
584
00:21:21,825 --> 00:21:24,865
shitty days of flat writing influence your view.
585
00:21:24,865 --> 00:21:27,000
You've got to rise above that moment and
586
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,180
see yourself in the grander scheme of things
587
00:21:29,320 --> 00:21:31,640
as a writer. That's your identity, and that's
588
00:21:31,640 --> 00:21:33,559
going to vary. Before I go, I thought
589
00:21:33,559 --> 00:21:36,200
I'd pass on the, most recent techniques and
590
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,200
insights that I've stumbled on on my own
591
00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:40,519
creative writing, and hopefully they'll be as useful
592
00:21:40,519 --> 00:21:41,965
for you as they certainly have been for
593
00:21:41,965 --> 00:21:42,785
me to keep in
594
00:21:43,085 --> 00:21:45,085
mind. So the first one is about, a
595
00:21:45,085 --> 00:21:47,164
bit of like a pyramid of hierarchy of
596
00:21:47,164 --> 00:21:48,924
why we read and why we engage with
597
00:21:48,924 --> 00:21:50,924
art. So I was listening to a podcast
598
00:21:50,924 --> 00:21:51,825
recently with,
599
00:21:52,285 --> 00:21:54,765
Yuval Harari, the author of Sapiens and he's
600
00:21:54,765 --> 00:21:56,625
saying that, you know, the human spirit
601
00:21:56,924 --> 00:21:57,424
is
602
00:21:57,919 --> 00:22:00,319
generated from the brain which is in this
603
00:22:00,319 --> 00:22:02,960
sort of vacuum cabin of the skull such
604
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:04,400
that it never actually lives with anything. It
605
00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:05,460
just sort of experiences
606
00:22:06,240 --> 00:22:08,880
feeling and emotion after one another. And that
607
00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:11,359
the external world might shift. We might eat
608
00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:13,039
something delicious, we might get a raise, or
609
00:22:13,039 --> 00:22:15,025
we might get struck by lightning but the
610
00:22:15,025 --> 00:22:17,045
only thing that's actually changing is
611
00:22:17,424 --> 00:22:19,904
chemistry in our brain and these emotions. So
612
00:22:19,904 --> 00:22:21,904
that's what people are ultimately doing when they
613
00:22:21,904 --> 00:22:23,445
engage with our writing.
614
00:22:23,825 --> 00:22:24,644
They want
615
00:22:25,345 --> 00:22:27,845
their brain inside their skull wants to
616
00:22:28,250 --> 00:22:29,390
live vicarious
617
00:22:29,690 --> 00:22:32,250
emotions. They wanna be lifted up, you know,
618
00:22:32,250 --> 00:22:34,809
in surprise and tension and conflict and love
619
00:22:34,809 --> 00:22:36,809
and they wanna be taken down just so
620
00:22:36,809 --> 00:22:39,529
they can feel the the ascent before going
621
00:22:39,529 --> 00:22:42,250
up again. So our job ultimately at the
622
00:22:42,250 --> 00:22:45,174
most fundamental level is to take the reader's
623
00:22:45,394 --> 00:22:48,214
emotions and heart through these different states.
624
00:22:48,515 --> 00:22:51,075
So we do that by giving them characters
625
00:22:51,075 --> 00:22:52,695
that they care about and plots.
626
00:22:53,315 --> 00:22:55,335
And all these different things
627
00:22:55,634 --> 00:22:58,275
are just tools and techniques to actually draw
628
00:22:58,275 --> 00:22:59,255
out and exacerbate
629
00:22:59,730 --> 00:23:00,390
the emotion.
630
00:23:01,410 --> 00:23:03,589
And at a more shallow level still,
631
00:23:04,049 --> 00:23:06,609
our sentence and word choice and all of
632
00:23:06,609 --> 00:23:08,150
these other sort of
633
00:23:08,529 --> 00:23:10,789
superficial, in some way, techniques
634
00:23:11,250 --> 00:23:13,625
sit on top of conflict and character and
635
00:23:13,625 --> 00:23:15,565
plot. So I sort of imagine
636
00:23:15,944 --> 00:23:18,765
what we're doing ultimately at the deepest level
637
00:23:19,065 --> 00:23:20,044
is manipulating
638
00:23:20,345 --> 00:23:21,804
emotions of the reader,
639
00:23:22,184 --> 00:23:24,904
doing that by using conflict and plot and
640
00:23:24,904 --> 00:23:25,404
characters
641
00:23:25,865 --> 00:23:26,365
to
642
00:23:26,750 --> 00:23:29,309
maximize the effect and using our words, our
643
00:23:29,309 --> 00:23:31,170
our sentence order, structure,
644
00:23:31,630 --> 00:23:34,990
synonyms, etcetera to maximize all those effects. So
645
00:23:34,990 --> 00:23:36,670
I think it's really important to keep in
646
00:23:36,670 --> 00:23:37,170
mind
647
00:23:37,549 --> 00:23:40,269
what emotions are you eliciting in your reader
648
00:23:40,269 --> 00:23:42,474
when you're writing and how could you most
649
00:23:42,474 --> 00:23:44,894
effectively construct plot to maximize
650
00:23:45,595 --> 00:23:46,414
that emotional
651
00:23:46,875 --> 00:23:47,994
liberation and,
652
00:23:48,714 --> 00:23:50,954
roller coaster ride. So I think it's really
653
00:23:50,954 --> 00:23:53,355
important to think of writing in that pyramid
654
00:23:53,355 --> 00:23:54,255
style structure.
655
00:23:55,480 --> 00:23:56,380
And finally,
656
00:23:56,759 --> 00:23:58,619
what I've learned most recently,
657
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,559
this is a difficult one to explain because
658
00:24:01,559 --> 00:24:04,859
there's, it seems to be split camp, honestly,
659
00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:05,720
which is,
660
00:24:06,359 --> 00:24:07,819
you often hear the advice
661
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,815
writing is a job, you know, you write
662
00:24:10,815 --> 00:24:13,855
write write and that's the right way to
663
00:24:13,855 --> 00:24:15,534
go. You sit down even if you don't
664
00:24:15,534 --> 00:24:17,694
feel like writing the act of writing will
665
00:24:17,694 --> 00:24:19,794
make you feel like writing etcetera.
666
00:24:20,095 --> 00:24:22,575
There are also these other other ideas associated
667
00:24:22,575 --> 00:24:24,929
with it, you know, writer's block. It's got
668
00:24:24,929 --> 00:24:26,750
a whole culture of productivity.
669
00:24:27,210 --> 00:24:28,269
The question is,
670
00:24:28,730 --> 00:24:31,450
do you sit and wait until inspiration slaps
671
00:24:31,450 --> 00:24:32,889
you in the face and jump up to
672
00:24:32,889 --> 00:24:33,389
write
673
00:24:33,690 --> 00:24:36,329
or do you just write like a drone
674
00:24:36,329 --> 00:24:38,509
or an office worker nine to five
675
00:24:39,164 --> 00:24:41,184
like a mad person and then look at
676
00:24:41,884 --> 00:24:43,485
look back at what you've done and,
677
00:24:44,125 --> 00:24:46,125
and just hope, you know, that you can
678
00:24:46,125 --> 00:24:48,684
draft it and redraft enough times before you
679
00:24:48,684 --> 00:24:49,884
whip it into something that you can be
680
00:24:49,884 --> 00:24:51,485
proud of and it will be valuable. So
681
00:24:51,485 --> 00:24:53,644
that seems to be the two opposite ends
682
00:24:53,644 --> 00:24:54,384
of the spectrum.
683
00:24:54,690 --> 00:24:56,389
Sit and wait for inspiration
684
00:24:57,009 --> 00:24:57,909
or pursue
685
00:24:58,369 --> 00:24:59,029
it unerringly
686
00:24:59,409 --> 00:25:00,230
at a typewriter.
687
00:25:01,569 --> 00:25:03,250
Of course, I've been running for just two
688
00:25:03,250 --> 00:25:04,849
years. I'm a child in the scheme of
689
00:25:04,849 --> 00:25:06,769
things and will always be. But,
690
00:25:07,329 --> 00:25:09,855
my latest thinking on this is, of course,
691
00:25:09,855 --> 00:25:12,275
with most things, some sort of in between
692
00:25:12,894 --> 00:25:13,394
lukewarm
693
00:25:13,775 --> 00:25:15,474
Goldilocks porridge situation.
694
00:25:15,775 --> 00:25:16,974
I've I've done that,
695
00:25:17,934 --> 00:25:21,535
spartan sit down write a thousand words every
696
00:25:21,535 --> 00:25:24,750
day regardless of your internal and external circumstance,
697
00:25:25,049 --> 00:25:26,570
and I've done it and I'm not proud
698
00:25:26,570 --> 00:25:27,390
of it. And
699
00:25:27,690 --> 00:25:29,690
the amount of editing that I'd have to
700
00:25:29,690 --> 00:25:32,330
do to put that onto a course where
701
00:25:32,330 --> 00:25:35,335
pride might arise from, that you may as
702
00:25:35,335 --> 00:25:36,534
well start again from
703
00:25:37,174 --> 00:25:38,075
and I have.
704
00:25:39,095 --> 00:25:41,335
And I've also done the other route of
705
00:25:41,335 --> 00:25:43,815
sitting and waiting for inspiration to strike me,
706
00:25:43,815 --> 00:25:45,575
and obviously that doesn't work either. So let
707
00:25:45,575 --> 00:25:47,414
me talk about the world that I'm existing
708
00:25:47,414 --> 00:25:50,154
in the moment that's, between those two extremes.
709
00:25:50,670 --> 00:25:53,549
So there's a, Simon and Garfunkel song called
710
00:25:53,549 --> 00:25:54,049
Cecilia
711
00:25:55,070 --> 00:25:57,309
and she is the muse or the patron
712
00:25:57,309 --> 00:25:58,850
saint of music and inspiration
713
00:25:59,230 --> 00:26:01,490
and she's depicted as this whimsical
714
00:26:02,110 --> 00:26:04,430
nymph like character that sort of frolics with
715
00:26:04,430 --> 00:26:05,250
the singer
716
00:26:05,674 --> 00:26:06,494
and produces
717
00:26:07,035 --> 00:26:09,855
these, orgies of great songs and great music
718
00:26:09,914 --> 00:26:12,154
and everyone's very pleased and then he turns
719
00:26:12,154 --> 00:26:13,755
around to go get, you know, glass of
720
00:26:13,755 --> 00:26:15,275
orange juice or something and comes back to
721
00:26:15,275 --> 00:26:17,994
bed and Cecilia has escaped and she's jumped
722
00:26:17,994 --> 00:26:19,500
into bed with some other writer and is
723
00:26:19,900 --> 00:26:22,299
is creating some hit over there. So the
724
00:26:22,299 --> 00:26:26,299
idea is that, creative expression is almost an
725
00:26:26,299 --> 00:26:27,839
expression of passion
726
00:26:28,859 --> 00:26:31,099
and with these sorts of drives be it
727
00:26:31,099 --> 00:26:34,015
carnal or or hunger or thirst you'd be
728
00:26:34,015 --> 00:26:36,595
familiar that if you're full and not hungry,
729
00:26:36,815 --> 00:26:39,134
food doesn't taste so good. And yet if
730
00:26:39,134 --> 00:26:41,315
you deprive yourself of food for some time,
731
00:26:41,375 --> 00:26:42,115
your nose
732
00:26:42,414 --> 00:26:44,575
will pick up the scents of foods from
733
00:26:44,575 --> 00:26:46,380
so far off like a bear or something.
734
00:26:46,380 --> 00:26:48,140
And by the time you actually eat, it's
735
00:26:48,140 --> 00:26:49,440
a sensational experience.
736
00:26:50,380 --> 00:26:53,099
Of course, that type of heightened sensory experience
737
00:26:53,099 --> 00:26:53,920
and sensitivity
738
00:26:54,299 --> 00:26:56,240
happens with a lot of pleasures.
739
00:26:56,539 --> 00:26:59,740
And I'm finding creative writing, creative expression to
740
00:26:59,740 --> 00:27:01,039
follow a similar route.
741
00:27:01,534 --> 00:27:03,394
So what I've been doing is
742
00:27:03,775 --> 00:27:04,275
writing
743
00:27:04,894 --> 00:27:05,394
only
744
00:27:05,855 --> 00:27:08,494
when my ideas have had a chance to
745
00:27:08,494 --> 00:27:08,994
mature
746
00:27:09,375 --> 00:27:12,015
and I've actually grown lost for wanting to
747
00:27:12,015 --> 00:27:15,054
write. I'm not forcing writing when I've got
748
00:27:15,054 --> 00:27:17,589
nothing to say. In fact, when I've got
749
00:27:17,589 --> 00:27:18,089
writing
750
00:27:18,549 --> 00:27:20,549
time, what I'll do is go for a
751
00:27:20,549 --> 00:27:22,009
walk, live my life,
752
00:27:22,549 --> 00:27:23,849
and let the ideas
753
00:27:24,470 --> 00:27:26,629
either actively I'll be thinking about plot. I'll
754
00:27:26,629 --> 00:27:28,649
be thinking about my story and letting ideas
755
00:27:28,789 --> 00:27:31,109
cling together and cycle around and reiterate and
756
00:27:31,109 --> 00:27:33,884
grow. Or at a subconscious level, this tends
757
00:27:33,884 --> 00:27:35,964
to happen anyway. So I'll just continue with
758
00:27:35,964 --> 00:27:38,204
my life. I'll think about the book and
759
00:27:38,204 --> 00:27:41,085
let ideas mature and get myself sort of
760
00:27:41,085 --> 00:27:43,404
riled up in a type of, I guess,
761
00:27:43,404 --> 00:27:44,384
creative foreplay,
762
00:27:44,779 --> 00:27:46,720
tinkering with ideas and, of course, reading,
763
00:27:47,099 --> 00:27:49,659
and let ideas really mature away from the
764
00:27:49,659 --> 00:27:50,159
keyboard.
765
00:27:50,460 --> 00:27:51,200
In fact,
766
00:27:51,579 --> 00:27:53,259
everything that I'm proud of that I've ever
767
00:27:53,259 --> 00:27:54,799
created in creative writing,
768
00:27:55,179 --> 00:27:57,200
be it themes, motifs, characters,
769
00:27:57,500 --> 00:27:59,039
a plot twist, a plot point,
770
00:27:59,494 --> 00:28:01,335
None of that has happened at the keys
771
00:28:01,335 --> 00:28:02,075
of a keyboard.
772
00:28:02,455 --> 00:28:03,595
It's all happened
773
00:28:04,055 --> 00:28:06,934
living my life and thinking about writing without
774
00:28:06,934 --> 00:28:09,494
that light. The light of the computer, the
775
00:28:09,494 --> 00:28:11,494
light of the phone, whatever it is. It's
776
00:28:11,494 --> 00:28:13,914
almost like a a light that,
777
00:28:14,579 --> 00:28:17,480
a moth is budding itself, showering scales everywhere.
778
00:28:18,339 --> 00:28:20,500
It it compels you to write. It compels
779
00:28:20,500 --> 00:28:22,500
you to make progress. But the ideas that
780
00:28:22,500 --> 00:28:23,559
you're putting on paper,
781
00:28:24,099 --> 00:28:26,515
how how deep are they, you know? I
782
00:28:26,515 --> 00:28:28,595
think it's a really good idea to spend
783
00:28:28,595 --> 00:28:31,634
non writing time developing and maturing ideas such
784
00:28:31,634 --> 00:28:33,154
that by the chance you actually get back
785
00:28:33,154 --> 00:28:34,054
to your keyboard,
786
00:28:34,434 --> 00:28:36,914
they've matured and you're brimming and,
787
00:28:37,474 --> 00:28:39,174
got yourself into a bit of a lather.
788
00:28:40,009 --> 00:28:41,769
The ideas that will come out will have
789
00:28:41,769 --> 00:28:43,769
no choice but to be from a deep,
790
00:28:43,769 --> 00:28:46,730
rich, and creative point because because you can't
791
00:28:46,730 --> 00:28:48,409
hold them in any longer. You need to
792
00:28:48,409 --> 00:28:50,009
express. You need to create. And I think
793
00:28:50,009 --> 00:28:52,434
that's where beautiful writing comes from. So my
794
00:28:52,434 --> 00:28:55,335
recommendation is use your non writing time creatively,
795
00:28:56,035 --> 00:28:56,535
constructively,
796
00:28:57,075 --> 00:28:58,595
such that when you finally get a chance
797
00:28:58,595 --> 00:29:00,275
to write, it'll be some powerful stuff that
798
00:29:00,275 --> 00:29:01,875
you'll be proud of from the get go
799
00:29:01,875 --> 00:29:04,595
instead of relying on your future redrafting self
800
00:29:04,595 --> 00:29:05,075
to,
801
00:29:05,955 --> 00:29:07,335
polish a turd, I suppose.
802
00:29:07,920 --> 00:29:10,000
And perhaps it goes without saying that it's
803
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,200
definitely worth giving a thought for the types
804
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,080
of influences that might stop you from using
805
00:29:16,080 --> 00:29:18,799
your spare time, your daydreaming time from thinking
806
00:29:18,799 --> 00:29:20,880
and letting your ideas distill. For a lot
807
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:22,960
of people, I suppose it'll be social media
808
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:24,315
and and their smartphones.
809
00:29:24,695 --> 00:29:26,695
So it's just, definitely something to keep in
810
00:29:26,695 --> 00:29:28,375
mind. How much of your time, how much
811
00:29:28,375 --> 00:29:29,515
of your psychological
812
00:29:30,695 --> 00:29:31,755
spirit and spotlight,
813
00:29:32,375 --> 00:29:34,154
deserves to be spent on those platforms.
814
00:29:34,855 --> 00:29:37,850
Well, listeners, that's it for, this guest episode.
815
00:29:37,910 --> 00:29:39,509
I hope it was constructive. I know it
816
00:29:39,509 --> 00:29:41,590
was a bit of a, a smattering, a
817
00:29:41,590 --> 00:29:42,090
mishmash,
818
00:29:42,470 --> 00:29:44,710
a lucky dip of content. I hope it
819
00:29:44,710 --> 00:29:46,789
was, bound together in a sort of package
820
00:29:46,789 --> 00:29:48,650
that made sense for you and was helpful.
821
00:29:49,775 --> 00:29:51,615
Thank you so much, Brad, for giving me
822
00:29:51,615 --> 00:29:53,134
the opportunity to come on the show. I'm
823
00:29:53,134 --> 00:29:56,174
so thankful for both you, your guidance, and
824
00:29:56,174 --> 00:29:59,295
of course the inside creative writing. Wonderful show.
825
00:29:59,535 --> 00:30:01,375
I'm very thankful that it's been an influence
826
00:30:01,375 --> 00:30:04,380
in my writing life for these years. And,
827
00:30:05,159 --> 00:30:06,759
thanks very much for giving me your attention
828
00:30:06,759 --> 00:30:08,619
again, listeners. I'm very thankful.
829
00:30:09,240 --> 00:30:10,220
If you'd like to
830
00:30:10,519 --> 00:30:12,200
get in touch, you can find me on
831
00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:13,579
Twitter at pensapiens
832
00:30:14,519 --> 00:30:16,519
and ask me any questions or just chat
833
00:30:16,519 --> 00:30:18,140
about writing and reach out because
834
00:30:18,644 --> 00:30:20,965
it's a, it's a tough it's a tough
835
00:30:20,965 --> 00:30:24,244
life we've all decided on. Very tough. So,
836
00:30:24,724 --> 00:30:27,365
yeah, give me a message. Anyway, thanks again
837
00:30:27,365 --> 00:30:29,445
everybody, and, have a great rest of the
838
00:30:29,445 --> 00:30:30,505
day. Bye.
839
00:30:36,839 --> 00:30:39,399
Alright. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you to
840
00:30:39,399 --> 00:30:41,960
Jesse Holly for doing such a great job
841
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:43,720
as our first guest host here on the
842
00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:45,259
Inside Creative Writing podcast.
843
00:30:45,734 --> 00:30:48,234
You know, I was especially taken with his
844
00:30:48,295 --> 00:30:48,795
metaphor,
845
00:30:49,654 --> 00:30:52,535
when talking about building up the desire to
846
00:30:52,535 --> 00:30:55,674
sit down and write. I've never really approached
847
00:30:55,734 --> 00:30:58,150
my writing time like that, but I think
848
00:30:58,150 --> 00:31:00,789
there's real value and real wisdom in that.
849
00:31:00,789 --> 00:31:02,490
And I actually look forward to experiencing
850
00:31:03,109 --> 00:31:04,809
with it a little bit in my own
851
00:31:04,950 --> 00:31:06,470
writing life to see if it works for
852
00:31:06,470 --> 00:31:07,509
me as well. So,
853
00:31:07,910 --> 00:31:10,470
it actually also reminds me of something one
854
00:31:10,470 --> 00:31:12,250
of my early writing teachers
855
00:31:12,684 --> 00:31:14,125
used to say, and I'm going to use
856
00:31:14,125 --> 00:31:16,545
that as our wise word for today.
857
00:31:17,085 --> 00:31:19,484
So Alan Heathcock, who's been a guest on
858
00:31:19,484 --> 00:31:21,744
our show before, was one of my early
859
00:31:22,205 --> 00:31:24,445
writing professors when I was at Boise State
860
00:31:24,445 --> 00:31:24,945
University.
861
00:31:25,460 --> 00:31:27,640
Now, one of the things that he says
862
00:31:27,700 --> 00:31:29,700
that sticks with me still to this day
863
00:31:29,700 --> 00:31:32,759
is, you're never not a writer.
864
00:31:33,700 --> 00:31:34,759
So writers,
865
00:31:35,299 --> 00:31:36,839
in a way, are always
866
00:31:37,299 --> 00:31:37,799
writing.
867
00:31:38,644 --> 00:31:40,585
We tend to see the world differently
868
00:31:40,884 --> 00:31:44,345
than non writers do. We notice the details
869
00:31:44,804 --> 00:31:45,784
of life. We
870
00:31:46,164 --> 00:31:47,544
recognize the unusual
871
00:31:47,924 --> 00:31:50,024
turn of phrase that a friend might use
872
00:31:50,244 --> 00:31:52,984
and we see story possibilities in the world
873
00:31:53,389 --> 00:31:56,529
all around us. In other words, we're watchers
874
00:31:56,669 --> 00:31:57,490
of the world
875
00:31:57,950 --> 00:31:59,009
and we're constantly
876
00:31:59,309 --> 00:32:00,529
mining that world
877
00:32:00,829 --> 00:32:03,069
for elements of story that we can use
878
00:32:03,069 --> 00:32:03,889
in our writing.
879
00:32:04,429 --> 00:32:05,549
Now this is why I said at the
880
00:32:05,549 --> 00:32:07,549
beginning of the show that I think Jesse
881
00:32:07,549 --> 00:32:09,924
is selling himself a little bit short by
882
00:32:09,924 --> 00:32:11,945
saying he's only been writing for two
883
00:32:12,404 --> 00:32:13,924
years. Now, he may have only been,
884
00:32:14,484 --> 00:32:17,045
intentional about getting stories put down on the
885
00:32:17,045 --> 00:32:17,545
page
886
00:32:17,845 --> 00:32:18,825
for two years,
887
00:32:19,365 --> 00:32:21,305
but I can tell he's been
888
00:32:21,880 --> 00:32:24,759
interacting with and exploring the world as a
889
00:32:24,759 --> 00:32:27,740
writer does for a lot longer than that.
890
00:32:28,279 --> 00:32:31,000
Now another thing I like about this concept
891
00:32:31,000 --> 00:32:33,019
that we are never not writers
892
00:32:33,664 --> 00:32:35,744
is that it helps us remember how much
893
00:32:35,744 --> 00:32:37,284
more there is to writing
894
00:32:37,904 --> 00:32:40,325
than just putting words down on paper.
895
00:32:41,345 --> 00:32:42,404
When we're staring
896
00:32:42,704 --> 00:32:45,660
blankly off into space, kind of letting our
897
00:32:45,980 --> 00:32:48,059
stories play in our minds as if on
898
00:32:48,059 --> 00:32:50,460
a movie screen, we are in a very
899
00:32:50,460 --> 00:32:51,279
real sense
900
00:32:51,740 --> 00:32:52,240
writing.
901
00:32:53,019 --> 00:32:55,580
When we're exploring the world and we're meeting
902
00:32:55,580 --> 00:32:57,359
new people and having new experiences,
903
00:32:57,900 --> 00:33:00,880
we are in a very real sense writing.
904
00:33:01,904 --> 00:33:03,904
When we're in the shower and that bolt
905
00:33:03,904 --> 00:33:05,445
of inspiration comes
906
00:33:05,745 --> 00:33:08,785
that unlocks that difficult scene problem that we've
907
00:33:08,785 --> 00:33:09,445
been plotting,
908
00:33:09,904 --> 00:33:12,005
we are in a very real sense
909
00:33:12,545 --> 00:33:14,160
writing. Now there's something
910
00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:15,140
beautiful
911
00:33:15,519 --> 00:33:18,080
about that concept, I think. But there's also
912
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,200
something a little bit dangerous because it can
913
00:33:21,200 --> 00:33:22,799
result in a sort of,
914
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:23,940
pernicious
915
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:24,900
procrastination
916
00:33:25,519 --> 00:33:26,019
too.
917
00:33:26,585 --> 00:33:29,305
Ultimately, it does take sitting down at a
918
00:33:29,305 --> 00:33:29,805
keyboard
919
00:33:30,265 --> 00:33:32,184
and putting one word after another on the
920
00:33:32,184 --> 00:33:34,845
page, but don't discount the ways
921
00:33:35,144 --> 00:33:37,545
in which you are a writer in all
922
00:33:37,545 --> 00:33:39,809
the other aspects of your life as well.
923
00:33:44,769 --> 00:33:47,970
Okay. So this week's, weekly challenge is to
924
00:33:47,970 --> 00:33:51,190
do something you've never done before or
925
00:33:51,490 --> 00:33:53,750
go somewhere you've never been before.
926
00:33:54,214 --> 00:33:56,214
So, this week is all about getting out
927
00:33:56,214 --> 00:33:57,914
of your comfort zone and
928
00:33:58,454 --> 00:34:01,255
kind of waking yourself up to an aspect
929
00:34:01,255 --> 00:34:04,394
of the world that you've never experienced before.
930
00:34:04,615 --> 00:34:06,615
This, I think, is part of what it
931
00:34:06,615 --> 00:34:08,315
means to be a writer.
932
00:34:09,030 --> 00:34:11,750
And, I don't necessarily mean finally doing something
933
00:34:11,750 --> 00:34:14,309
you've always wanted to do or finally going
934
00:34:14,309 --> 00:34:17,030
somewhere you've always wanted to go. I actually
935
00:34:17,030 --> 00:34:19,269
want you to scare yourself a little bit
936
00:34:19,269 --> 00:34:21,030
this week. I want you to do something
937
00:34:21,030 --> 00:34:23,050
that you never thought you'd do
938
00:34:23,505 --> 00:34:26,144
or that may be entirely out of character
939
00:34:26,144 --> 00:34:27,824
fee for you. So when I give this
940
00:34:27,824 --> 00:34:28,804
challenge to writers,
941
00:34:29,664 --> 00:34:31,585
often what they think I mean is something
942
00:34:31,585 --> 00:34:34,464
kind of seedy or dangerous like, you know,
943
00:34:34,464 --> 00:34:36,224
maybe, I don't know, going to a strip
944
00:34:36,224 --> 00:34:37,860
club if you've never been to one or
945
00:34:38,180 --> 00:34:41,239
jumping out of an airplane and, parachuting. Right?
946
00:34:41,300 --> 00:34:42,980
And and it could be that type of
947
00:34:42,980 --> 00:34:45,000
thing. But it could also be
948
00:34:45,460 --> 00:34:47,720
something a lot more tame than that.
949
00:34:48,340 --> 00:34:50,579
It could be sitting in on a court
950
00:34:50,579 --> 00:34:52,680
case, right, at your, local
951
00:34:53,675 --> 00:34:56,155
city or county court. Or it could be
952
00:34:56,155 --> 00:34:58,235
volunteering at a school. Or it could be
953
00:34:58,235 --> 00:35:00,394
going to something like a rotary meeting in
954
00:35:00,394 --> 00:35:02,795
your community. Right? Something that you've never done
955
00:35:02,795 --> 00:35:05,275
before that feels like you're the odd man
956
00:35:05,275 --> 00:35:07,454
or the odd woman out in that situation.
957
00:35:08,489 --> 00:35:11,050
It could be having lunch at that place
958
00:35:11,050 --> 00:35:12,889
in town where it seems only a certain
959
00:35:12,889 --> 00:35:13,389
ethnic
960
00:35:13,769 --> 00:35:14,670
ethnic group eats,
961
00:35:15,449 --> 00:35:17,530
or maybe helping out at a food kitchen
962
00:35:17,530 --> 00:35:20,429
for the homeless, or, going to an unfamiliar
963
00:35:20,730 --> 00:35:23,695
church service. So, we we tend to live
964
00:35:23,695 --> 00:35:25,795
in these tiny little bubbles
965
00:35:26,414 --> 00:35:27,315
of familiarity
966
00:35:28,014 --> 00:35:30,175
which can actually be a real problem when
967
00:35:30,175 --> 00:35:31,474
we're trying to write
968
00:35:31,934 --> 00:35:33,934
outside of that bubble. When we're trying to
969
00:35:33,934 --> 00:35:35,554
write about people and places
970
00:35:36,190 --> 00:35:38,750
and cultures that don't exist within our little
971
00:35:38,750 --> 00:35:39,969
bubble. So this week
972
00:35:40,269 --> 00:35:42,510
is all about doing something that wakes you
973
00:35:42,510 --> 00:35:43,010
up
974
00:35:43,469 --> 00:35:45,710
to the way other people live and the
975
00:35:45,710 --> 00:35:48,349
experiences that they have. So even if nothing
976
00:35:48,349 --> 00:35:49,250
that you discover
977
00:35:49,674 --> 00:35:51,594
during this process ends up in a story
978
00:35:51,594 --> 00:35:53,295
that you write, the experience
979
00:35:53,994 --> 00:35:56,335
will help you see the peculiarities
980
00:35:58,234 --> 00:36:00,174
of your own world in a new light
981
00:36:00,474 --> 00:36:02,875
and make you a better writer of those
982
00:36:02,875 --> 00:36:04,630
things in your own world. So that's going
983
00:36:04,630 --> 00:36:06,070
to wrap it up for us this week.
984
00:36:06,389 --> 00:36:08,789
If you're enjoying the podcast, I'd love it
985
00:36:08,789 --> 00:36:10,869
if you'd tweet about it or mention it
986
00:36:10,869 --> 00:36:12,869
to some of your writer friends and maybe
987
00:36:12,869 --> 00:36:14,869
even leave us a review over on iTunes
988
00:36:14,869 --> 00:36:16,630
or whatever app you use to listen to
989
00:36:16,630 --> 00:36:17,130
podcasts.
990
00:36:17,855 --> 00:36:20,674
Also, please consider joining the Patreon team.
991
00:36:21,375 --> 00:36:23,775
If you're interested in submitting a guest segment
992
00:36:23,775 --> 00:36:25,775
to the show like Jesse did, just head
993
00:36:25,775 --> 00:36:27,534
over to bradreedrights.com
994
00:36:27,534 --> 00:36:29,534
and you'll find everything you need to know
995
00:36:29,534 --> 00:36:31,320
about how to do that over there. So
996
00:36:31,400 --> 00:36:33,480
I'd love to get your voice on the
997
00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,059
air and share your insights and discoveries
998
00:36:36,519 --> 00:36:38,760
with our writing community like Jesse got to
999
00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,800
do today. So until next week, remember the
1000
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:43,900
best way to improve your craft
1001
00:36:44,394 --> 00:36:45,215
is by writing.
1002
00:36:45,515 --> 00:36:46,875
That's what I'm off to go do, and
1003
00:36:46,875 --> 00:36:48,414
I hope you're off to do the same.
1004
00:36:48,474 --> 00:36:50,075
Let's get some words on paper this week,
1005
00:36:50,075 --> 00:36:52,235
and we'll meet up again next week for
1006
00:36:52,235 --> 00:36:55,375
another episode of the Inside Creative Writing podcast.
1007
00:36:56,635 --> 00:36:59,355
Thanks for listening to the Inside Creative Writing
1008
00:36:59,355 --> 00:37:02,389
podcast with your host, writer, and educator,
1009
00:37:02,690 --> 00:37:05,349
Brad Reed. We'll be back next week.