Why Managers Should Never Diagnose Employees

Rebecca Taylor: This is HR Voices, a scenario-based podcast featuring real people leaders who deal with real people challenges every day. Each episode, we dig into the messy, gray area stuff nobody puts in a training deck. If this sounds like your kind of show, follow or subscribe wherever you're listening or watching, and leave us a rating. It helps other people leaders find us. HR Voices is brought to you by All Voices. Hello, and welcome to HR Voices. I'm your host, Rebecca Taylor, and I'm here with Michelle Spencer Fournet, Global Director of Employee Relations at Zscaler. Michelle, thank you so much for being here. Thank you, Rebecca, for having me. I'm so excited to have this conversation with you. And I know I start off every episode with saying that, but I genuinely mean it every time when we were talking about these different scenarios that we could talk about. I know that this one I was really, really excited to bring up because we're going to be talking about accommodations and sort of like the different lenses of what accommodations are and aren't, in a way. And it's something that I'm seeing is very topical, just sort of in the HR landscape now, you know, with people. Returning to office or not returning to office. There's just a lot going on in the accommodation space. So I'm excited about this scenario. Are you ready to dig in? I'm absolutely ready. I'm excited as well. Okay. So we're calling this one, I love this one, the manager who diagnosed her employee. A manager tells HR she's, quote, pretty sure an employee has undiagnosed ADHD based on his disorganization and wants to know if she can require a psych evaluation before allowing more deadline extensions. The employee has never disclosed any condition or requested any accommodation. HR has to explain why a manager cannot compel a diagnosis, why, quote, pretty sure isn't a basis for anything, and redirect the entire conversation back to documented performance, not amateur diagnosis. So I know we're all armchair experts and armchair doctors here, but we won't get into that yet. So put on the white coat, right? Yeah. Before we can all like Google our own things, right? So Before we go into the specifics here, looking at this from a very high level, Michelle, what stands out to you as the most risky or unclear in this scenario, just as it's laid out at face value? Yeah, the f well, it really what stood out to me the most was that, you know, our our manager becoming an instant doctor on the web, you know, diagnosing their employee. That's that's really although they're probably coming from an empathetic space. Right. Creating a lot of risk and legal exposure for the company. They're also opening the door, assuming and making an assumption this employee has a disability. might as well write that blank check. I mean, that's that's the riskiest, you know, for a discrimination claim. That is the riskiest thing that stood out to me. as far as unclear, there's a lot of unclear here. There's there's a lot that we need to clear up and ask questions about. So but yeah, that's first thing, Rebecca, that jumps out at me. Yeah. I'm with you. It's just like I think that there's there's a sort of trend with people trying to anticipate others' needs. So, like sometimes you'll see something like this coming from sort of a good space. maybe the lens of this scenario, you know, maybe you don't have to assume as much good intent because they're kind of like trying to say that they're sick of accommodating, quote unquote, whether they've been accommodating or not. But a lot of times this comes from a good space where someone's trying to say, I know about this, I'm aware of different things, I see you, I'm here to help you. But that's where you're walking such a dangerous line. There's a difference between having that conversation with a friend or a partner versus a colleague or someone who you manage. So you know, I love how you put it like let we might as well just write that blank check because it's true. There's just a case there immediately. and so as we're trying to figure out what's unclear in this particular situation, where do we start? Like who do we start talking to? What are we trying to find out from them? Where do we begin? Yeah, great question, Rebecca. So really you we st we start with the manager. We're having that conversation, right? And We need to get to a factual baseline. So how do we do that? Right. And as you brought the scenario up, what I'm thinking of is, well, we have we have two, you know, ways to go, two paths here that we've got to cover. One, we I have to have a conversation with the manager about the disability, but I'm not gonna jump right into that because I might lose that manager. But there's also a performance here, you know. So I think we stop start where it's easy with the manager. And that's what I like to do. And and peel that onion back. So what are the facts based around the performance concerns? What what do we have here? What is it? Is it what are those expectations of the employees' performance? What conversations have they had? I would go through quite a list of questions to understand more of that space first. I love that you said that you put it as start at where it's easy. Because, you know, sometimes you're right when you're looking at these kinds of scenarios, it's kind of hard to know like where to begin because there's so many different angles and elements that you can get to, but you're right. It's like let's talk about performance because that's the so what part, right? It's like So what this person may or may not have ADHD. That's beside the point. What's the real issue here? Let's kind of talk about that. I think And I definitely want to address the per you know, the the bringing up the ADHD comment or the perceived ADHD that this this manager has of the employee. but I want to do that last because you know, I don't want to lose him in the beginning. I think a lot of people in HR, we have to remember that we're here to help the manager, we're here to consult and guide. Yeah. We're the experts. We don't want to lose them in the beginning by making them feel bad like they've done something wrong. Yes. Yeah. It's true. Give them some wins. Exactly. Exactly. Yeah. It's like they're like, I have an issue that I'm trying to solve. This is the way that I think it needs to be solved. Help me solve it this way. So it's almost like you have to kind of like, I think we talked about this in our prep call. It like you have to peel the onion, right? And sort of say, you know, okay, what's the part of this? Like what is the real problem we're solving here? Yeah. So it seems like there's And and and not assuming malicious intent. I love that. Sorry, go ahead. Sorry. No, no, you go ahead. No, there was a little delay, so I apologize there. you you brought up something in the beginning and that was the intent, right? A lot of times folks think the manager has ill intent. They don't. They really do more times than none care about their employees. They're coming from an empathetic space. They just don't know how. I think that's the hard part. It's just like they're coming from this empathetic space and they're coming from a place of pressure too. Because, you know, not all managers get manager development when they become managers. A lot of times they've been individual contributors and then they get promoted to being managers. And that kind of comes with its own level of sort of learning curve. And so sometimes, you know, we can make ad assumptions about this manager in question. Cause again, this is a fake scenario, fake person. So we can assign kind of any assumptions we want in a lot of ways. But it's like when I hear that this manager has been, you know, that they're sort of coming to HR with this issue, in my experience, a lot of times people don't come to me about something like this until it's been eating at them for a little bit. So, how do you start these conversations earlier so that the manager doesn't come to you when they're already just like kind of a little bit at their wit's end? How do you kind of help them come to you a little bit earlier so that we're not accidentally diagnosing employees. We're actually just talking about the real issue at hand. Right. Well, I think that starts with enabling and enablement and and training and education. We know it's our jobs to ensure that our leaders have the tools and the knowledge to do their jobs. A lot of times managers are new in their role at companies. They get promoted within and we assume that they automatically have all the answers. Well we may not assume that, but we, you know, folks do tick typically overlook that. And they they may not. I tend to spend a lot of time with leaders when I'm on the phone with them, especially when it comes to ADA. It seems like it's a, you know, it's it's scary for them. They don't know where they're stepping in the wrong place. They they hear about all these claims out there, they see the news, they read the headlines. they know. So they're they're a little nervous and anxious as well, but they also have, like you said, the pressure on them. So it's important as HR experts. that we're taking that time and that extra time to an opportunity when we're meeting with managers to find those opportunities to educate as we go. Yeah. To teach. I like that. Or with teachers in our space. It's true. And it's like it's easier to and probably more effective to kind of learn a little bit as you go in that moment instead of trying to like jam lots of learning into one sort of space when something's going wrong. It's like then you're kind of in this reactive headspace no matter what. So if you have sort of like development breadcrumbs or regular conversations where you are kind of helping someone navigate and understand like, here's what it's like being a manager. Here's the things that you're gonna be dealing with that you might not be expecting. And I'll tell you right now, there's gonna be more that we're not expecting that just shows up unexpected because we're dealing with people and that is just the way that people go. Exactly. Expect the unexpected and and you're right, teaching how many times have we all done a training and sexual harassment training even, you know, or whatever training it may be and we're multitasking. We're attending a webinar. We're multitasking. Managers want to know in their moment how to handle something. And what better opportunity than when they bring you something to educate? Yeah. Yeah. Because you've got a live scenario right there. So take it. But you need me. We're here. This is what we're here for. Yeah. You know what's kind of funny about this scenario too? Is that the manager notices that the employee is disorganized, then immediately makes this conclusion that they have ADHD and then they're As a result, they're extending deadlines for this person and they're just kind of sick of extending deadlines for this person. That's kind of how I would look at this sort of scenario the way that it's laid out. Now, I've seen so many different varieties of this, right? Where people might be afraid of conflict or you know, they're trying to find like a bigger reason to or a bigger sort of reason why something might be what it is. But organization's also a skill. So there could be a situation where this person is just disorganized and they need to build that skill. It doesn't necessarily mean that they have ADHD. So, you know, I think that's sort of part of the development conversation too, where it's like, you know, this person might just, you have to kind of give them the chance to disclose if there is a condition. But if not, I've been in so many situations where managers are holding back feedback because they're like, well, what if it's what if they're, what if that's like, you know, not accepting their different way of working. And that's where I think we have to have like real conversations about what management really is and what skill development really is and not be afraid to call out, hey, this is a thing that I'm that I've noticed. This is witnessed behavior. I've witnessed that we've been pushing deadlines out. You know, you're not able to hit them. You know, it looks like, you know, when I ask you questions, you're not, you don't have the clear answers, you're a little bit disorganized. Let's talk about that. Like that's how I'd open up the conversation. But what do you think? Yeah, I agree. And I think really understanding where has the employee been and what what's changed, if anything. Is this a new thing? yeah. When did that start happening? Could is there something I I'm always asking a manager, do you know if there's anything going on? Has has your deadlines changed? Has the pressures their work increased? Are they having a difficult time meeting these deadlines? Because there's new technology. What are the different things to really get that manager to think through? Okay, what is happening in the environment? Because their focus is I've got deadlines to meet. I gotta push something out. Yeah. They're they might be missing that big picture because they could be throwing a lot at the employee. But really, have they even had the conversation with the employee? Yeah. Hey, I've noticed lately that you've been missing your deliverables. You're missing deadlines. Is there anything that I can do as a a roadblock that I can clear for you? Yeah. And and having that just conversation. It's where you started. Yeah. Where you start. Yeah. And from this scenario, it doesn't seem like it's hard to know. I think the part that's unclear for me is. Has the manager brought up ADHD with this employee? I'm reading through it again, but it doesn't seem like it. It seems like it's like an assumption that they've made and they've been sort of accommodating them, but without naming whatever it is that's going on, you know, even if it's just noticing a change in performance or noticing this. So if you're doing an investigation into something like this, do you talk to the employee at this point at all? Or are you kind of trying to navigate this by helping the manager navigate it? Right. And I I would I wouldn't use it the term as an investigation. I would say we we need to explore what's going on, right? And so I would not speak with the employee. You know, you you you you're kind of bringing an HR way too prematurely if I am, if if if I do have a conversation with that employee, but really it's understanding and helping guide the manager on what to do. And those are the questions I would ask as well. Did the employee bring up a a you know, did they ever ask that they need an accommodation? Yeah. They ever bring up an accommodation. They don't even have to use the word accommodation, but they ever say anything like I'm really struggling lately. I've I've I have these things going on in my life. Has there been anything or or I'm struggling with focusing? Yeah. Have have they even brought anything like that up? Let's say if they have, then let's separate that out again. The manager's focus is to be on performance. That's when they would bring us in. Yes. And they would share with the employee, hey. You know, it sounds like if the employee says something like, I, you know, I've been struggling lately. I've I've been depressed. Okay, there's an example, right? And I didn't bring up ADHD, but depressed. the manager should say, Wow, okay, thank you for sharing. That's some pretty personal information. We have resources available here at our company. Let me provide those for you. But also, you can reach out to our HR team. We have someone in people relations or employee relations available to speak with you. And that's when they would bring us in. Leave that over to us. Yeah. Let the manager focus on performance, but acknowledge the employee. Yeah. I agree. Especially when it's like we don't even know if the employee knows that the manager is thinking this right. Because what I find is kind of funny, and this is, I guess, like natural and normal in most situations, where there's words that people use that have a very different meaning in different contexts, especially in a legal sense or in an HR sense. So the manager might be thinking, like, we've accommodated this person, just meaning, like, they've said they've needed more time, we've given them more time, but that's different from an accommodation capital A. It's like harassment and harassment, right? Like we use harassment very colloquially in a lot of ways, but there's a very specific legal definition of what that is. And so I think that's sort of a coaching moment too, probably for the for a like an HR person to talk to the manager to say, Hey, this isn't a formal accommodation. You may be accommodating. But this is the definition of what that is. And we're not at that point yet because that has to be led by the employee. That can't be led by the manager in something like this. Right, correct. And you know, you you bringing that up kind of of course sparks other other things in my head that we see very often in our space when it comes to accommodations. And that would be where a manager, let's say an employee even brings up an accommodation to or a medical accommodation to a manager. They never bring an HR. Maybe it's something along the lines of, you know, I need to leave every day at three o'clock. I need accommodation because of you know, my anxiety kicks in at three o'clock every day and I can't sit in the office past three. Well, if a manager takes it upon themselves to not bring in HR to start engaging in interactive process and having the right cop dialogue with the employee, and they just grant that automatically, let them Go home every day at three o'clock and it goes on for three or four months. And then the manager says, Well, they're not performing. Now I want to address it. They need to be here past three. Yeah. Guess what, manager? You pretty much said at this point, there's this pattern that you've allowed them. And it's not just really allowed, you've you've already accommodated them by doing that. Yeah. Yeah. That's so astute. Yeah. No, that's so true. That's so astute because there's there are accommodations that you don't realize are accommodations. So things that, you know, you're as a manager, especially if you're a new manager, you want to show you're flexible. You might wanna, you know, you want your people to like you or, you know, at least sort of like, you know, I don't know. I've I've I have coached a lot of managers and spoken to a lot of managers who, especially when they're new, they're like, I'm gonna be a different kind of manager. I'm gonna be flexible, I'm gonna be this, I'm gonna be that. And then, you know, not that we don't all wanna always be sort of the best version for our employees, but sometimes it's like you know, you can't be a people pleasing manager, right? Because that's what kind of leads to being overly accommodating without having a formal accommodation. and, you know, it's like it is something where you're right, if they're not engaging in the interactive process, if they're not, you know, in their effort to again with good intention to help this person to do what they need to do, if a manager doesn't know that that's a thing to go to HR with, then that is sort of an issue in and of itself. It's something that like we're always thinking about at all voices with accommodations is like if we gave employees an easy way for them to just sort of fill out a quick form to start the conversation. So it doesn't have to go through their manager, it doesn't have to go through anything first, but we can sort of date stamp it from that moment that they're like, This is something that I might need. And then the interactive process kind of starts from there. It's an it's a better way to kind of capture it so that something like that doesn't fall through the cracks. And you're not trying to clean that up three, four months later when the manager wants to change their mind. Yeah, exactly. And there might be a better accommodation as well. Yeah. We we see so much in our space in HR, we sometimes have to get pretty creative with accommodations. Yeah. And there's something there that if we're not waiving the essential functions of the job, that we could probably come to terms on that's going to be best for the employee and the manager. They could still meet those deliverables or they those deadlines and they can still get what they need from from the employee, but you know, let us go through that. And we always bring a manager in to be part of that discussion after we do a preliminary meeting, but or interactive dialogue with the employee. It's really d to gain understanding and really to have everyone in the end have it work for everybody. Yeah. What is the goal outcome? Yeah, because that is the goal. It's just like I don't think, you know, maybe not I link you know, maybe not everybody, but most people don't wake up in the morning say saying like today I'm gonna fail. Today I'm just going to wreak havoc. And I'm gonna completely catastrophize everything in my life. Like, yes, there's always a subsection of people that are gonna do that, right? But for the most part, across most employees, everyone's just trying to do their best, or at least they're just trying to not get fired. Even like let's be like, let's be the most cynical. They're just trying to not get fired, right? So when you look at like when you look at accommodations, I think sometimes what becomes really hard is sometimes people or managers might assume that an employee might be weaponizing an accommodation because of a performance conversation. So something you mentioned earlier is you'd want to look back at this person's performance data and like see is that has there been a dip in has there been a dip recently compared to how it was the last cycle, the last two cycles, whatever that theme and trend might be? Because I mean, in this case, it's like the manager suggesting the accommodation. So maybe not, but let me phrase my question in a very clear way because I'm kind of like thinking about it in a few different ways. Have you ever seen a situation where And a manager might be assuming that an accommodation is being used as an excuse, quote unquote, for poor performance. And what do you do about that? Absolutely, a hundred percent. that that comes up often. And I I do have to remind like what I like to do is when I meet with the manager. So let me just back that up. When I meet with the manager, I like to ask those questions like I asked earlier. and then also remind them that, you know. Let us have the conversation with the employee. Sometimes employees don't want to bring up accommodations or a disability conversation with their managers in fear of judgment. Mm-hmm. In fear of, wow, I really thought I could do this, but I can't. Yeah. That's sometimes an aha moment for the employee. Yeah. And it you know, when their performance starts to suffer, they are probably in that moment of, wow, you know, I I think I do need help. I need an accommodation. I never thought of that. Or that could be a moment for them that really is opening their eyes and they're going, Okay, I let me see if I can do this. And I can tell you, Rebecca, I've seen success stories where someone's performance has been, you know, managers ready to put them on a pip or they deliver a pip, then they're asking for an accommodation. And we've granted that accommodation and they've just uplifted their performance. Yeah. And those are success stories. We love those, right? For sure. That's like what it's all for. That's what it should be. Exactly. And it should be to improve someone's performance. That's what the plan is. But you know, it's, you know, when accommodation is is granted and the employee is successful, it's working. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And it's it's a win win. Yeah. And that's that is, I mean, and that's the dream. And I think that it's the thing that sometimes can be very hard where it can they're doing the same job can look different for different people. Yeah. You know, 'cause the if you're looking at performing according to the goals and expectations of your role, that could look different in so many different, you know, so many different contexts. Like I've seen even just debates with grocery store employees, you know, are they allowed to have chairs if someone has to sit because maybe they have a bad back or, you know, they're pregnant and being on their feet all the time when they're ringing up people at a cash register. You know, it's like it's you know, people can still Process groceries and deal with customers and bag them and do what they need to do, whether they're sitting or standing. And giving an accommodation to one person doesn't take something away from someone who doesn't need that accommodation. Like that's the thing that honestly kind of grinds my gears when I see conversations where it's like, well, you know, if we do this for this person, if we give Michelle a chair, then that means that, you know, John's gonna need a chair too. And then everybody's gonna want chairs. And before we know it, everybody's sitting. It's like, no, that's not, yeah, that's not how it's gonna work. Yeah. And and that's, you know, and they're valid concerns of managers, right? Because what they're looking at is, my gosh, I'm gonna have all these issues now. People are gonna be upset and mad and angry. Yeah. And it's important that we think about the managers in those scenarios. Yeah, that that's the wrong answer. Now I'm not gonna tell them that. But you know, it's important that we say, I totally understand. Yeah. I 100% can see why you're concerned. Yeah. Let's talk about how we would handle that. If an employee comes to you and says, well, that's not fair. Yeah. That person gets a stool. Well, we've got to protect the privacy of the employee. Yeah. But, you know, let's let's talk about how we would handle that if it were to happen. Yeah. And and be there and be supportive of the manager when it does. And we have to rem you know, although it's frustrating for us as HR professionals to to hear that because we always do, we have to hear our we have to listen to our managers. We have to acknowledge their frustrations. Yeah. And their concerns. Yeah. So and not forget about them because we're so focused on the employee. Yeah. We need to be focused still on both. Yeah. Especially because they're probably the ones that are going to be dealing with the deluge of feedback too right away, right? Because, you know, for better or for worse, employees go to their managers usually first for anything and everything. So especially if you're in a situation like the grocery store example, because because you're not necessarily going to be in front of HR every day, but you will be in front of your manager most likely, or at least a, you know, shift manager, like That's who you're gonna be interacting with. So that's who you're gonna go to with your, you know, with any feedback if you were an employee. And I love that your approach is to sort of prepare the managers, like listen to what they're saying, because it is, you know, sometimes I know my first HR job was in retail. Sometimes I know it's just like managers are like, you don't know what it's like out there. Like you make one change, you don't know what it's gonna be like. All ten of them are gonna be asking me questions. And I'm like, well, cause they're curious and it's change and So instead of saying like, let's protect you from that, it's like, let's bring you into that. Let's expect it to happen. And how can we best prepare to navigate these conversations and and kind of like remove, I think that removes a lot of the ambiguity for people too. So it may feel less stressful. May May being the key word there. Yeah. And they they want to feel not just heard, but supported. Yeah. Supporting the employees all the time. The managers need it as well. Yeah. You the front line. They are the front line. And it's funny you say retail because anytime s anyone comes to me and says, Where should I start Matrich career? I'm always saying retail. You'll see everything. You will see everything. my goodness, you will see everything. Up to and including like any any job dealing with the general public and helping people who are dealing with the general public. And I say dealing with only because it really is like you never know what you're going to get. And so it's a different level of training and a different level of support that you have to give to your employees because You know, they're in a less they're just in a less predictable environment when you're dealing with anybody who could be walking off the street. you know, it's funny because we have a lot of restaurant chains and retail customers here too. And it's like, you know, we always sort of bond over just the just how you really have to be ready for everything, which I know you can say in any HR job, and that is true. But I love that your advice is start in retail. You'll see as much you'll get a very big dose of everything to get you started. You'll get every flavor. Yep. Yep. So I think there's I just have a couple more questions because I know we're almost out time. so when I look at this scenario, well, I guess one's a comment and one's gonna be kind of like a question. So when I look at this scenario, I agree with you where I would have a conversation with the manager, I would look at the do the performance documentation, I would kind of try to piece the story together to kind of understand what's going on, identify that it might be a skill gap, coach the manager to have the conversation about that, and then if it and then if the employee does come back and say, This is why I'm disorganized. It's not just because I don't know how to stay organized, it's because of things going on. you know, then you sort of like orchestrate that conversation, but there is a very real chance that the manager might have the conversation with the employee. They work on their organization a bit, and then their performance is fine again. And, you know, then they're okay. And I look at that as an example of, you know, how much work HR does that sits behind the scenes. Because that employee might not that employee in the if that goes well, that employee won't know that HR had that conversation with their manager. That HR knew what their manager said about them behind their back, right? And I think that's what's really, I think it's what bonds a lot of HR people is just sort of we see and know the work that we all do that doesn't get seen because it shouldn't be seen. It's supposed to be like protected. That employee is not supposed to know that, you know, what could have happened, right? Because it wouldn't, there's no need for that. and so I just kind of want to, I guess, like call that out and just say like this is the work we all do every day and this is why it matters. And it's why the human judgment of it matters so much too, because it takes a level of sort of emotional intelligence and discernment to kind of, you know, navigate how you want to incorporate the different people into these conversations. Yeah. And those are wins too that we should capitalize on, you know. And when I say that, what I mean by that too is. You know, and I've done this before historically where I've had a really good success story. And it wouldn't be my success story, it's the manager's success story. Yeah. You know, it's it's my job, right? That's my job to guide them and consult them. So that's not my success story, it's the manager's success story. I brought managers back into manager training and let them talk about the situation. Yeah. Because they're real life and their peers see that they did it and they had a success story at the end. And then they become an expert. And guess what? You're you're giving them the kudos that they deserve for one. Yeah. but two, you know, what most people when they I guess we say let's say they when they're put on like I'm not gonna say a pedestal, but they're put in front of their peers as great job. Yeah. Truly it was. They then embrace it themselves even more and they become these champions of it. And that's what we want. We want managers to be champions of their success. Yes. Yes. We want someone to say, like, Michelle really helped me with this. And like, if you're struggling with this, you should go to Michelle too. Yeah. Well, I wouldn't that and I don't care if they necessarily don't come to me. It's about how the manager got them there. Yeah. Because we're behind the scenes, right? So it's really more, hey, manager, this is your moment to shine. Share with your peers what you did. Yeah. Yeah. How did you get how did you navigate that employee? Yeah. How did you navigate them to be successful in meeting those deadlines? What did you do? What did you change? Because when they came to me, they were saying they didn't they they couldn't those deadlines, right? So in talking through that, what is the what what what was that win for the manager? Yeah. I love that. Because then it becom they become mentors to each other too, and it becomes sort of like a peer development network, which tends to perform really, really well in organizations that do it intentionally, right? Where it's like we're collectively gathering here to figure all this stuff out together and to share wins and to share tips. because no one, I mean, no one knows how to do the job better than someone in the job, right? And I think that that just brings a lot of well a level of relatability to any advice or tactic or anything like that. Yeah. and you know, it's funny, I always say working in HR is like, Being a manager is sometimes like playing basketball, right? You like throw the ball in the net, it either goes in the net or it doesn't. But working in HR is like playing pool. You're using a stick to hit a ball to get another ball to do something. So you have to kind of know you have to look like four steps ahead because you're like, okay, if I if I hit this here from this angle and it does this, is it gonna end up in the pocket the way that I need it to? And if not, what pocket could it end up in that we should be ready for? Am I gonna miss that pocket altogether? Right. It's just gonna go rogue. Am I gonna scratch? Maybe. Is the eight ball gonna go in? Maybe. But it happens. It happens. Yeah. Yeah. It's so true. There are two actors that control it. Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. So I know that, you know, we've kind of you've been giving advice to listeners and stuff throughout this entire story, which I think has been like really, really helpful. I love your approach to kind of start with what's easy. I think that's like my my big like tagline takeaway from this, because it's just it's so clear and simple and just so Obvious, but because it's so obvious, that's how you know it's hard to kind of know where to start there. but if you had to give one piece of advice to an HR person who's going through something like this scenario right now, what would it be? gosh, it would be definitely to to to well to take a deep breath, you know, especially someone who's new in HR, you know, because these moments come at you and you're you want to react. The first thing you want to do is go straight to that, do not. I know somebody, you know, it's a first reaction. Gosh, I remember when I first started, that would have been my first reaction. yeah, me too. I've learned trial and error, right? We've learned this way. But really, so take a deep breath and you know, again, start where it's easy. Start with what you know and what's easier for the manager to explain because then they're gonna really, really feel heard. So tell me about their performance. What's going on? You know, and acknowledge that manager, but really starting slow, really taking a step back, thinking about it, start with what's easy. I love that. I love that. Well, Michelle, thank you so much for being here and for walking through this scenario with me. I know, I mean, I just think there's so many there's so much good stuff to come out of this conversation. And, you know, for anyone out there who's sort of going through it and trying to figure out like how to manage employees and managers who might be sort of self diagnosing people or making assumptions. Like, you know, like Michelle said, take a deep breath, start with what's easy and try to, you know, just sort of lead by the best example that you can. So I hope that anyone who's listening can get some good nuggets out of this. Yeah. And take the opportunity to train, develop, educate. Yes. In that moment. That's that's another big takeaway, I would say. Yes, you're here. Yeah. I love it. Well, thank you, Michelle. And thank you everybody for listening. And I hope you have a great rest of your day. Bye. Bye. And that's where we'll leave it. Huge thanks to Michelle Spencer Fournay for walking through this one with me. If you take one thing away from this conversation, let it be Michelle's line, start where it's easy. When a manager wants to mandate a psyche valve because they're pretty sure an employee has ADHD, don't react. Take a breath, start with the manager, and get back to performance and documented behavior before you touch the diagnosis question. Because pretty sure isn't a basis for anything. And the second a manager plays armchair doctor, you've handed the company a blank check for a discrimination claim. We also got into the accommodations you don't realize are accommodations, the ones that quietly start without HR and become a mess to clean up months later. That's exactly why at All Voices we built accommodations intake so an employee can raise a hand with a quick form, stamp from that first moment, and the interactive process starts clean instead of getting patched together after the fact. Thanks for listening and I hope you have a great rest of your day.