speaker-0: Hello and welcome to the Giant Talk Podcast, brought to you by both Airby Giants and Momentous. If you've tuned in before, you'll notice we're having a bit of an upgrade. Previously, Giant Talk has been about all things OKRs, but now our focus is expanding to how strategy can be connected to results in all types of organisations. Our back catalogue is still available, so if you want to check that out for more detailed OKR episodes, then you'll find what you need there. In the meantime, Roger and James are delighted that you're here, and if you want to contact us, you can drop us a note at growth at theairbygiants.com. Enjoy.
speaker-1: Hey there folks. It's Roger from Derby Giants. Welcome to another episode of Giant Talk. I'm here with my co-host James.
speaker-2: Good afternoon. Hello everyone.
speaker-1: Good to see you again, James. And I'm pleased to say we have a great guest with us today, Emily. Emily Pierce Riding. from Redmore Environmental. But James, you know her better than I do, so maybe you're best doing the the full introductions. Yeah.
speaker-2: Absolutely. Well I think even better, let's ask Emily to do a bit of an introduction. Just to tell us a bit about yourself, tell us a bit more about Redmore Environmental. Where did it start? Just tease us in with a a bit of its beginnings.
speaker-0: my goodness, gonna have to blow the dust off the books now. so yeah, my name's Emily and I am a director at Redmore Environmental. So we are an air quality consultancy and we specialise in everything to do with air quality really. we support clients with and their needs for land development, industrial work, environmental permitting and anything air related. Where did we begin? So the company celebrated its tenth birthday last year, which was absolutely fantastic. We started off back in twenty fifteen. my colleague Jethro set up his business, Jethro Redmore. And about a year later I came back from my travels in South Africa and this was the first job I ever really applied for as a graduate consultant myself. And when I was offered the job and joined the team, I brought us to three, which felt surreal at the time and I think You know, there was almost a bit of self reflection on, you know, is this a good idea? This is quite risky, this is a new company, air quality wasn't as big in the world as it is now. But, you know, I'm happy to say it was it was a great decision. so yeah, we we basically have spent the last ten, eleven years finding the growth that we need to to support this this company. You know, Jethro started the team with some great clients, but his his strategy at that point was we just need to grow. We need to build build our client base further and we need the people around us to to deliver that work. and and now we're one of the largest air quality consultancies in the Northwest. by September we'll be standing strong with a team of thirty one, which is just it's it's a bit mind boggling really that that we've managed to grow so much. You know, we've got three new graduates in the next month, it's just fantastic, really. And for me personally, it's just been amazing to be part of it and have such a central role in that. You know, I've I've seen people come and go but mostly come and stay and enjoy it. And, you know, to be one of the directors having gone through all those levels has just been great. It's just been a fantastic journey.
speaker-2: So three people to thirty. Yeah. Tenfold in ten years. That's quite some growth.
speaker-0: Yeah, it was it was a lot to celebrate last year. Yeah, yeah, really great.
speaker-1: Fantastic. And I I'm guessing with that kind of growth, there must have been some people related challenges along the way.
speaker-0: Mm, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think those challenges kind of shifted as as we did grow. you know, when there was only four or five of us, that okay, come on, we we all know how each other are working, but we need to get more people in here. We need we need that support. it was it's been an interesting road. I think we've always been very successful bringing fresh graduates in, you know, that that fresh meat. They're they're really excited to learn more about the air quality world. They've probably just done a a dissertation on it or a course on it in university and they just they're just raring to go and get stuck into that career using all that knowledge. which is great for us, they're really easy to mold and really easy to work with. But it takes time to get them to a level, you know, where they can confidently work independently and on challenging projects which at the time didn't come around that often. But when they did, you know, we needed that support there. and really we needed team members with more experience, both from air quality, but both from management. You know, we w we were a young team and we really we were learning from the people above us who were kind of showing us the way. and that was the struggle getting the senior senior people on board. there just weren't many that, you know, a lot of senior consultants are quite happy in their roles they're act. There's a reason that I never left Redmore. so there wasn't a a big pond to fish from and for us because we just wanted that really quick growth, we we couldn't really invest the time that on upon reflection perhaps we should have done to get that skill level in. we just went back to the the graduates, you know, get get them in, we'll train them up, we'll we'll make them in into what we want them to be.
speaker-1: So have you seen the graduates rise through the ranks then over the years?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that that's it. So we've we've had a mix and I think that was one of the challenges that we faced. So we saw them rise through the ranks and they developed their technical knowledge. but you know, we struggled to in perhaps invest the time in that management element because we were just so focused on the technical work. And I think to then continue to rise, you have to have the management support that you need. And I think that was we just didn't really get the balance quite right. So I think that was where perhaps we saw people move on to to other roles that that could support that and and kind of got to a point where we were really pushing but we just couldn't see see the growth anymore. We got to kind of twenty five, twenty six staff, but we just couldn't couldn't really get past it.
speaker-1: Mm.
speaker-2: That's interesting. So has it influenced a bit around kind of over that journey as you've had those problems? Has it has it has it forced you or created an opportunity to change a bit around how you recruit kind of the the things you've been asking for and looking for to try and tease out some of those management skills?
speaker-0: Yes, yeah, I think so. And one thing that we've we've started to do more recently is really understand an individual's personality a lot more and who they are and what makes them tick and and then how we can get the best out of them. And we we started that process kind of with yourself, James, through through the training sessions that we've done with you, but we've really brought that in house and It started with the team that we were already working with and we were looking at the disc profiles. We we ran a really great workshop that people got a lot out of. You know, not everyone does it and not everyone understands how they work themselves. So it was great to see how they responded to that and see how maybe how the directors, that was the key thing that everyone was interested in. How are how are these people that are leading us, how do they operate? But we slowly brought that into the recruitment process. So through interview work we now have the disk analysis and we ask them to rate themselves. Not for any reason to then not hire anyone, but it just helps us see, okay, where might this person best fit in the team. We know that they maybe have some technical skills that that might suit them more to the industrial sector. But you know, which which people should we get to train them? Because you know, if if if they're not going to react well to someone who's quite authoritative and direct, then actually we're probably not going to get the best out of that person. And when they're starting their career because they're probably going to be a grad, then they really they need that. So it it's been quite a successful process. we've really seen some great changes in in how everyone's working together.
speaker-2: That's fab. So f so so going back to kind of the that that growth and the time of growth and bringing lots of people in and the you you had that gap in in kind of management. You'd you know, you would you didn't have people stepping into a bit of that that space that you wanted it to. How what did that mean for you and I guess with the you know, the the the handful of you that were leading the business, the kind of senior leadership team, how did that what kind of challenges came up for you to be leading the business as brilliantly as you could?
speaker-0: It ultimately it it was a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure because you know, th I I spoke earlier about those challenging projects don't come forward often, but they do come forward and actually, you know, eight or nine years later they they come a lot more and we're we're seeing a lot more now. So when those when those projects came on, really they fell to the to the associate and director levels to look after. But then we were also still doing training and we were still doing management and it it there just wasn't there weren't enough hours in the day, there weren't enough hours in the week. It was a it was a lot really. And we we got to the point where we just really longed for this middle middle level, this middle management team who could operate on a number of levels really because we we couldn't hear as well what the junior team were trying to tell us because we were focused so much on on kind of the training and getting our own work done. And we felt that because there wasn't this senior level that the juniors were a bit reluctant, you know, possibly afraid to come and raise those issues to us because they weren't sure how we were going to respond and actually were the big scary bosses. And we never ever tried to have that persona, but I think naturally it just happens with with young staff. So what we roughly strategised was kind of a senior management team to try and help with those challenges. and bring that kind of middle sounding board kind of empower the this that senior level to take up a lot of of the management and and leadership skills and develop them a bit more and just allow us to kind of speak between the juniors and and the senior team more effectively. And at the time it felt like yeah this is a great idea, this is a really fantastic opportunity. But it didn't it didn't quite work out in that way because we didn't have the strategy. The only thing we had was, you know, the four or five of us at you know, the the higher level team. We've seen what we can do and we've seen it be effective. So let's just do that again and it'll all be great. And we didn't we didn't really think about you know we knew who we wanted to be in the team, but we weren't looking at personalities at that point. So we didn't really think closely how they would work together because we just thought, well, we all worked really great together. So it surely this is cut and paste, fine. Yeah.
speaker-1: There's a few things that jump out for me there, Emily. First of all, although you perhaps didn't intend on it, you actually started off with a fairly flat structure. And there's a lot of organisations that really strive and value for that. But the reality of it is it can be really hard to make it work. And, you know, having that mid layer in takes some of the pressure off senior management, gives someone that the frontline guys can go and talk to, the consultants can go and t go and talk to. And And, you know, it's that buffer in between that also helps with translation as well from from from the senior team. However, it sounds like that whilst in theory that was perhaps the right model for you, the the the mix, the makeup of that team wasn't quite right for you.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, exactly that. And it was it was something b that we picked up a little bit later into that the development of that team. So, you know, people have core strengths and core personality traits that aren't visible. And what what we've seen over, you know, the first two, three years of those individuals' careers was what they let us see and we'd identified, you know, really strong leaders that that could make decisions and perhaps that they could lead that team and you know, maybe the more quieter people who could think about things more logically and, you know, maybe that would work. What we actually saw was the people that were more quiet really did want to lead, but just felt overpowered and then became really unsatisfied that they weren't being given a chance. And and all of that was then going on in somewhere that we couldn't see because they didn't want to show us. So what we started to see was things to fall apart and it was almost too late at that point. so understanding how that team was going to work together and th and their personalities would have been, you know, probably a really useful tool.
speaker-1: Sorry,
speaker-0: Say that again, sorry.
speaker-1: what were the signals that that it wasn't working?
speaker-0: So we'd we'd have regular meetings between the senior management team and the directors and associate team and what we found was we could maintain those meetings, but over time less and less would come out of it and we'd get more repeat questions of Well what well what do you mean you want us to do that? And we'd say, Okay, well We talked about this in the last meeting, let's explore it a little bit further so you're ready to talk about it next week, next meeting. But then we'd have the same question again. Right. So it w it it was almost people were losing confidence because they felt like they weren't doing what we needed them to do. Then it changed to postponing of meetings. Right. And ev you know, things just became quieter, they just the communications weren't there. And then you could really see it in individuals. So when we were having appraisals and catch ups, you know, there was a bit of a change in their confidence and you know potentially they were self reflecting thinking they're they're not doing a a a good job, whereas we we thought they were. But you know, those were the key things really just communication just kind of slowly went downhill.
speaker-1: And sorry James, I've I'm on a bit I'm on a bit of a roll here, if if you'll just allow me. And you you said earlier that there was no strategy and at the senior level you you were kind of in the mode of just thinking if you did the same as what you've done before it would still all work out. So when you started to see this mid layer not really measure up, not do what you needed them to do, what was the how how where were you with actually having a strategy at that point or were you still in the rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat kind of approach? Or were you at a point where you had a strategy and you were kind of expecting that team to kind of get it and help to you know to
speaker-0: I think at that point we we realised, okay, we need to bring this into a strategy now. We need to almost reset and and start from again and you know, bring the team back together again. So that was really the key point that we really got in touch with James and we did a lot of workshops with them and they went on their own kind of team building day to try and build those relationships and that trust with each other. but I think it was a little bit too late at that point. you know, they they'd already lost too much confidence and we were just finding it really hard to build them back up to what we wanted. And we felt that rather than really try and force this new strategy and this reimagining of it that we wanted to, we kind of needed to let go and we needed to take the pressure off that team who were, you know, starting to suffer, take that pressure off, have a rethink about what we want as this direct a team, what we want to achieve and what is the most effective way we're gonna get there, really, without over pressurising and you know, damaging someone's experience of their career and what they want to achieve.
speaker-2: Well imagine 'cause what obviously what you've you've talked to is kind of some of those almost horizontal challenges of how we're how we're getting our teams and the people on the front line, as Roger said, to to to communicate with us, to to be hearing us properly. Did it did it also create maybe some of the vertical challenges as well, kind of almost silos between the different teams and maybe even at senior level? Did you start to s say actually we're we're almost working on our own too much?
speaker-0: there was there was definitely an element of that. you know, we try and touch base with it with everyone at the start of every week. but I think as the company grew and we were trying to hold on to everyone having input in those meetings, it just it became it became too much. So we've developed a new strategy that we were really cautious that siloing would be an issue, which I think was why we try and avoided it. We just for so long we just stayed away from that. Let's just keep everyone talking at the same time about what they're doing individually, but then that's its own challenge because people stop listening. So what we did was move away from that kind of three core junior senior director. Then the seniors will talk to the juniors and you know, if that that kind of situation. What we've done now is kind of bring everyone together within smaller teams. So, you know, we're a lot bigger, but what that's meant is we have a we have now have a lot more capability to service a lot a lot more of different areas. So rather than just looking at land development, we also now have an ecological team, we have a land development team, we have a permitting team. And those teams have now individually grown. So we've created kind of working groups in each of those teams that have their own responsibilities and and own feedback processes to make sure that we're not being siloed. Everyone's talking to each other and we can have much more focused development and progression within those within those teams, which is which is actually being quite nice. Really, you can see people progressing more naturally at their own pace, fully supported by the key team leaders who who kind of specialise in those areas, which has been really great.
speaker-2: And how have you managed to maintain the consistency across those working groups? That sounds like a brilliant way to address and break down some of those barriers of communication and allow just allow the easy access and just open access to people. How have you made sure inadvertently you haven't then created some really good vertical working groups? How do you how do you keep that consistency across the top? That that lose it.
speaker-0: Yeah, so it's the working groups are formed of a mix of director and associate level. So we're we're still talking about, you know, the the people who've got the core knowledge in those areas. And not everyone, not every director or associate is in every group. So we're in groups that we're we're interested in, our own interests lie. Which means people are invested, the leaders of those groups are invested in what's happening because they have a full understanding of how That sector is working, of who the client base is, and where the potential opportunities for growth are, you know, what's the new technology coming up that we can focus on. And that keeps it exciting. And all of the individual groups, because they've all got those people, they're all excited. And then we have our leader working group meetings where the leaders of each team come together. And because there's so much drive, and you know, it's just a that just brings it all together and keeps everything ticking over nicely. It's a it's been a really successful approach and something that, you know, we're just gonna continue driving forward.
speaker-1: That's really interesting 'cause I think if I understand what you're describing there, it seems like you've built good horizontal alignment. You know, vertical alignments really quite straightforward in terms of a concept anyway. You know, where you've got a strategy, plan, set of goals, and you want everyone in the business to kind of work in support of those. So there needs to be some alignment that way up. Fine, get that. But then the horizontal alignment that's a bit more challenging because that's about making sure that people are collaborating, people are not duplicating, people understand the dependencies and that they have on each other and on team upon team and so on. So with these groups as you describe them, has that definitely helped sort of strengthen that sort of horizontal alignment for you?
speaker-0: Yeah, I think so. And it's it's helped with the with the other teams as well, because when we we do a lot of knowledge share. So, you know, the way that we avoided the siloing was that people within the teams are all talking to each other, they all know what what projects they're working on and they're all excited about their own work. But then we do a lot of C P D and we've got case studies and presentations that we give to the whole team, and that's directors too, which is been really good to pique people's interest and go, Ooh, I didn't know we could do that. Maybe I could get involved in in that way and then it kind of gets shared around. So then everyone, even around the teams, are all invested in in how we're progressing. And actually I'd be really interested to help out with some of that research on ammonia assessments and things like that. So it it strengthens it even more because everyone's aware of everything that's going on.
speaker-1: Okay. So people are still in a functional team but they're also in a working group. Is that is that the way that it works?
speaker-0: for the for the most part, so it it doesn't happen often that people will split off into a you know, do some work in a different team, but we just we like to let our junior team know that there are opportunities. that, you know, thinking back to some of the challenges in the earlier days where, you know, everyone did everything because we all could and there it didn't no one really got into much detail about the core project. And it it felt really great for the juniors, but then they very quickly wanted to specialise. So we'd specialise them and then then they they don't want to do that anymore and they've they've remembered all of the other opportunities that they've got and actually were getting really unsatisfied that they were just being forced down this one route of you can only do this now. So what we've learnt from that is okay, you know, we can see you enjoy this. We don't want you doing work that you don't enjoy. But If you do want to dip into something else, we will support you through that and we will provide the training. So I think it's it's just providing more opportunity, keeping people focused on what they enjoy, but still allowing some movement and and getting involved in other elements.
speaker-1: Mm.
speaker-2: And were there other things you thought about doing before kind of embarking on the working groups with their ideas floating around the senior leadership team? We're thinking, why we try this or try that? Or that you kind of either parked or even attempted and maybe quickly realize it it it wasn't making the progress that you've now seen.
speaker-0: think we we definitely we definitely tried to to get that senior middle level team. We we really sat down for quite a while and thought how how could we make this work better? Who who do we want to be involved in, what level? And how can we make it work? How can we get that output? But I think it just we just couldn't get there and I think we needed to step away from that one, two, three and just kind of focus everyone on their specialist areas that you know they could develop in.
speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. Has it made a difference? sorry, Emily gone.
speaker-0: No, I was I was just gonna say I think other other than that, we just got to this working group and it just meant you could as a director I could focus in on the areas that I wanted to see and I could provide my experience of that topic rather than having this senior team and just expecting them to know everything. Yeah.
speaker-2: Yeah, that and that's the question I was gonna ask was what's it allowed you to do as as an SLT? What's that opened up? You read my mind?
speaker-0: Time, just just time to at some point just sit back and watch, which I know sounds really weird, but just see see how how things are going, how are people working together, how are projects developing? How is our skill level developing? What do we need to focus on for the next six months? do we need to have a think about? restructuring those teams, bringing smaller teams within them. is there an entirely new sector that actually we can do, we can work on that. Let's bring it in and and develop a new team for that. It's it's just given time back to see it all from from a much higher level.
speaker-2: Mm. And is is there space there for your managers that you've brought up who now are b who are working as you want to to the is there the space there for them to bring some of that thinking around actually this is where I think we could reorganise or this is where we could you know, markets and areas we could dive into?
speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. That that is what we want out of our leaders working group meetings. You know, there's an agenda that comes out of it and you know, we'll start off with the key the key focus areas. How are the finances doing? How is the team working? Have we got any bottlenecks that we need to be concerned about? And then it's about right, bring it to the table. Have we got any have we got any ideas, any any key points that you want to see come out of this, really?
speaker-1: I think the thing which I really am loving about what you've dis what you've created here, Emily, is that you've kind of collapsed the hierarchy a little bit. And I guess as much as anything, perhaps I'm guessing that was maybe from the observations, the lessons that you had from before when people didn't want to come and talk to the senior team, even though you weren't big and scary. They kind of thought you might be. Yeah. So the the working group kind of allows everyone to be literally at the same status, so to speak, at the same level. and I think that's really that's really interesting. That's really interesting that that. Especially seeing that, you know, you you're not a massive organization. You haven't got a huge amount of people that you can kind of to play with is not is not the right description. But I mean, you know options, I suppose, in terms of how you can organise yourselves is probably the right way to put it. but it seems like how how l how long have you been doing this, taking this approach for now?
speaker-0: Cool. I think we started the working groups about two years ago. Okay. All right. About two years.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Exactly that. And long enough to know that that was the right decision, that this is successful now, we need to keep going with it. And long enough that we don't need to put all our energy into it as directors. So when we first started them, my word, my email inbox was just full of invitations to all the different working groups that were we were starting up and it was It was quite a lot, you know, talking about pressure, that really felt pressured. But, you know, we had to we had to make the strategy for each one of them and we had to make them work. and we started off with kind of monthly meetings for each group. And we're now at the point where most groups will only meet quarterly. And, you know, the the groups that we really want to focus on, maybe we do keep those a bit more regularly. But yeah, long enough we've been doing it long enough that we're kind of in this comfortable rhythm. And we know that if something changes Well we just bring it back in and we meet more regularly and we get those really focused conversations coming out of it. Yeah.
speaker-1: You you've got a nice model here, I think, which a lot of other businesses could probably learn from to be honest.
speaker-0: Yeah, we're we're really pleased with it and you spoke before about kind of removing that hierarchy. And I think it it just sort of materialized, this hierarchy element kind of materialised without us realising because when you're working as a team of three, four, five, you're all really tight, you're best mates, you can tell each other everything and you know you're not afraid to ask silly questions and you know, talk about problems that your youth see as a massive thing but you know your director doesn't. And I think without noticing as that team grew, the juniors developed their own kind of network and couldn't felt they couldn't break into this really tight knit senior team, so just didn't. And I think what we needed to do was reset that without having that senior level. And Part of that was also letting go from our perspective. Yeah, we need to open up as directors, we need to be more approachable and and come to you and see if everything's okay. And and I think that that has built into the working groups as well.
speaker-1: So if I may, and what kind of sort of personal transition have you gone through in this? Has it been quite a challenge for you in in the way that you you know, your leadership and management style over the over the past few years?
speaker-0: One of the key things that came out of my disc profile is I hate change. And yeah, I really, really need to be led through change and you need to convince me of why this is gonna work. And if we're gonna talk about change, I'm gonna be the person in the corner that puts you through hell. I will ask a hundred questions and really challenge you. and I you know, if you asked any of my colleagues That would be the one thing that they'd say, you know, Emily really pushes against change. So for me, there was a lot of self-reflection that had to come into that. And there was a lot that I had to let go of. You know, for me, this was my baby, you know, f it's my career. I've never done anything. I started as a graduate consultant and I'm here now as director. And to let go and remember that we've built this team that can do exactly what we need them to do and get the same outcomes, if not better. than what I was doing at that time. So for me it was a really personal kind of you need to let go of this, you need to trust the team around you and just know that they'll get through it. And, you know, if they come across challenges, they can talk to me and I'll help them learn from it and then they'll become even stronger.
speaker-1: Hm. That's a story we've heard we hear many times, isn't it, James?
speaker-2: It is. It is absolutely that. And and you know, a lot of the work, you know, Roger does and and that I do or we do together is very much taking businesses through change and it's got to start with the leaders. You know, they've got to they've got to be ready for the change. Yeah. And and advocate it and, you know, be the champions of it. And it's really difficult, as you say, Emily, when when your natural style is I d I like steadiness, I like stability, I like knowing what is predictable and safe and what I've spent ten years of my career growing up through through. and and in that did you did it also help tease out some of the real strength of your peer group in the SLT and potentially some of their fears as well that might come to play?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I think so. It it almost I don't know. I think through through some of the the convers you know, the challenging conversations that we had with that team when we were working with them, you know, a lot of the feedback that they gave was that they just they weren't sure where they needed to be. And yeah. I think I think that was that was one of the biggest challenges for them that they couldn't they couldn't see where we wanted them to be and I think we were just hoping that they find their way through it. Right.
speaker-2: Yeah. And it is that balance, isn't it? You you don't want to show people necessarily and say, Hey you are, here's the answer, here's your here's your success, here's your career progression. Yeah. You you want them to want you know, you wanna see that I guess that hunger and that ambition. Yeah. And knowing that they can come to you and that actually they've you know they can easily find where those opportunities are, but it's good that it's that marriage in the middle, isn't
speaker-0: Yeah, and I and I think, you know, that that whole copy and paste, we we had the hunger and the drive because if we didn't, we weren't gonna exist. And I think we j we were looking at them going, Why why don't you have this hunger and drive? And it was yeah, there was just a complete there was the bit in the middle that was missing that the that communication of let you know, this is where we want you to be and this is why you need the drive and this is what you'll get if you have that drive. That was just wasn't tying up.
speaker-1: So from all this, and it sounds like you've been on one heck of a journey, both personally and as a as a team and as an as an organization, what are the key lessons that which perhaps you'd known earlier? but now you know them, you you're ready for the road ahead.
speaker-0: Strategy is the big the biggest thing. Having having that solid strategy, not just a kind of wouldn't it be a great idea if we had this team? Yeah, sounds good. Let's just speak to them on Monday and see if they want to do it. No, it you know, we need to really look into this and understand what's the end goal of that team or what's the continuing operation of that team, who's gonna be involved in it, and how do we see their roles working because we don't want to have complete control over who does what, but I think having an understanding of how it might work at least then opens you up to that conversation with those individuals to say, look, I think we've got a real opportunity for you here. We see you doing this. Are you up for it? Are you excited? Do we need to rethink it? And then bringing that all together. And I think having both those elements, that strategy and understanding of how people work. was the key bit that we were missing out of the senior management team and we look back now on and go, yeah, we could have missed we might have missed a really oppos really big opportunity there. And you know, we've come out with a different approach, which is working really well for us, but it's almost that what could have been if we'd actually approach this from a calm, reasoned angle and not just we need to put up something together and make it work. And so those are the two big ones, but I think the other element from my perspective is having that trust in the team around you and letting go just a little bit. it's it's amazing what people can achieve when you let them achieve it. And I think that it's been really great to see and yeah, I wish I'd done that a little bit earlier, I think.
speaker-2: Sounds like you've described Patrick Lencioni's model of of functional or dysfunctional teams perfectly there with trust at the bottom and then everything you said about through this through this conversation around people taking that commitment and stepping up and wanting to own it and you know, the the point you've got to with with a good open sharing of of how are we doing, what are we learning, you know, where do we go from here? And I I suppose as we kind of bring this to a bit of a close and and reflecting on the growth you've talked about from three people to almost thirty one people. But you mentioned you hit a ceiling of about twenty five, twenty six, but you've gone past that. You've realized, as you just shared, what some of the lessons were. sharing as what you can, I sort, you know, totally respect there might be things that you're you're working on in quietly in the background, but kind of what's next for Redmore and what what's giving you and your colleagues and if maybe the business the absolute confidence that you're going to win it, you're going to do it.
speaker-0: Yeah. I mean it's it's nothing new. We just want to continue to grow. we're we're all really proud of the reputation that we have in the northwest and why not have it as the UK? you know, we really wanna we really wanna push that growth, but in a sustainable way and in a healthy way that means we're getting the most out of our junior team who feel constantly supported and they've got that that leadership above them. But But also allows us as leaders to focus on the key areas that are going to allow that growth and and you know, look at where we can move into across the UK and what other sectors can we get involved with whilst keeping the technical excellence that we've got. and how do I know that's gonna work? Because of the team around me. we have been really lucky over the last two years I would say and we have managed to bring in some fantastic senior team members that have got a wealth of experience in sectors that we haven't really looked at before. We've never done much in business development, but one of our team members that came in has a lot of experience in that and they're really bringing the junior team into that world, which I think is is great for them. It's a whole nother level of career that you've just never done before at university, all of that networking and attending events and and things like that. So having that additional support and those working groups that we've got around us, I'm yeah, we're gonna do it. We'll just keep growing. I'm a lot more confident growing up from thirty one now than I was around that twenty five, twenty six about trying to push to thirty. That was making me nervous.
speaker-1: Mm. Fantastic. Fantastic. I so it's a great story that you shared there, Emily. And I think I genuinely think you've got a model which is has a lot of value in it and could could be could be picked up by others. So if people wanted to actually reach out to you, how could they do that?
speaker-0: Yep, so my contact details are available on our website and I can share them with you guys. I've got quite a long email address, just because Jethro set me up ten years ago with my full name. So it's it is Emily Pearsing at red hyphen env dot co dot uk
speaker-1: Well I'll make sure that that goes in the show notes with
speaker-0: Yes, that's
speaker-1: the with the website address. Can people find you on LinkedIn as well?
speaker-0: I am on LinkedIn, yes, reach out to me on LinkedIn and we can pick up anything from my experience of growing through the last ten years. yeah, or anything air quality related.
speaker-1: Amazing. Thank you so much, Emily. I'm sure James you'll join me in saying that this has been a really great conversation. It's it's it it's been it's been really, really revealing, I think, in terms of you know how you've how you've you you you've approached the challenges. so thank you very much to those of you out there listening. hope you found this to be another really insightful conversation about how Some organizations go about connecting strategy to results. I think we've heard a really good example of how an organization in some respects has actually reshaped itself. and to to to do exactly that and has obviously done it very successfully. So Emily, thank you again for joining us.
speaker-0: Thank you. It's been great to be here.
speaker-1: You're very welcome. And James and I shall see you all very soon. Thanks very much now. Indeed.
speaker-1: Hey there folks. It's Roger from Derby Giants. Welcome to another episode of Giant Talk. I'm here with my co-host James.
speaker-2: Good afternoon. Hello everyone.
speaker-1: Good to see you again, James. And I'm pleased to say we have a great guest with us today, Emily. Emily Pierce Riding. from Redmore Environmental. But James, you know her better than I do, so maybe you're best doing the the full introductions. Yeah.
speaker-2: Absolutely. Well I think even better, let's ask Emily to do a bit of an introduction. Just to tell us a bit about yourself, tell us a bit more about Redmore Environmental. Where did it start? Just tease us in with a a bit of its beginnings.
speaker-0: my goodness, gonna have to blow the dust off the books now. so yeah, my name's Emily and I am a director at Redmore Environmental. So we are an air quality consultancy and we specialise in everything to do with air quality really. we support clients with and their needs for land development, industrial work, environmental permitting and anything air related. Where did we begin? So the company celebrated its tenth birthday last year, which was absolutely fantastic. We started off back in twenty fifteen. my colleague Jethro set up his business, Jethro Redmore. And about a year later I came back from my travels in South Africa and this was the first job I ever really applied for as a graduate consultant myself. And when I was offered the job and joined the team, I brought us to three, which felt surreal at the time and I think You know, there was almost a bit of self reflection on, you know, is this a good idea? This is quite risky, this is a new company, air quality wasn't as big in the world as it is now. But, you know, I'm happy to say it was it was a great decision. so yeah, we we basically have spent the last ten, eleven years finding the growth that we need to to support this this company. You know, Jethro started the team with some great clients, but his his strategy at that point was we just need to grow. We need to build build our client base further and we need the people around us to to deliver that work. and and now we're one of the largest air quality consultancies in the Northwest. by September we'll be standing strong with a team of thirty one, which is just it's it's a bit mind boggling really that that we've managed to grow so much. You know, we've got three new graduates in the next month, it's just fantastic, really. And for me personally, it's just been amazing to be part of it and have such a central role in that. You know, I've I've seen people come and go but mostly come and stay and enjoy it. And, you know, to be one of the directors having gone through all those levels has just been great. It's just been a fantastic journey.
speaker-2: So three people to thirty. Yeah. Tenfold in ten years. That's quite some growth.
speaker-0: Yeah, it was it was a lot to celebrate last year. Yeah, yeah, really great.
speaker-1: Fantastic. And I I'm guessing with that kind of growth, there must have been some people related challenges along the way.
speaker-0: Mm, yeah, yeah, definitely. And I think those challenges kind of shifted as as we did grow. you know, when there was only four or five of us, that okay, come on, we we all know how each other are working, but we need to get more people in here. We need we need that support. it was it's been an interesting road. I think we've always been very successful bringing fresh graduates in, you know, that that fresh meat. They're they're really excited to learn more about the air quality world. They've probably just done a a dissertation on it or a course on it in university and they just they're just raring to go and get stuck into that career using all that knowledge. which is great for us, they're really easy to mold and really easy to work with. But it takes time to get them to a level, you know, where they can confidently work independently and on challenging projects which at the time didn't come around that often. But when they did, you know, we needed that support there. and really we needed team members with more experience, both from air quality, but both from management. You know, we w we were a young team and we really we were learning from the people above us who were kind of showing us the way. and that was the struggle getting the senior senior people on board. there just weren't many that, you know, a lot of senior consultants are quite happy in their roles they're act. There's a reason that I never left Redmore. so there wasn't a a big pond to fish from and for us because we just wanted that really quick growth, we we couldn't really invest the time that on upon reflection perhaps we should have done to get that skill level in. we just went back to the the graduates, you know, get get them in, we'll train them up, we'll we'll make them in into what we want them to be.
speaker-1: So have you seen the graduates rise through the ranks then over the years?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, that that's it. So we've we've had a mix and I think that was one of the challenges that we faced. So we saw them rise through the ranks and they developed their technical knowledge. but you know, we struggled to in perhaps invest the time in that management element because we were just so focused on the technical work. And I think to then continue to rise, you have to have the management support that you need. And I think that was we just didn't really get the balance quite right. So I think that was where perhaps we saw people move on to to other roles that that could support that and and kind of got to a point where we were really pushing but we just couldn't see see the growth anymore. We got to kind of twenty five, twenty six staff, but we just couldn't couldn't really get past it.
speaker-1: Mm.
speaker-2: That's interesting. So has it influenced a bit around kind of over that journey as you've had those problems? Has it has it has it forced you or created an opportunity to change a bit around how you recruit kind of the the things you've been asking for and looking for to try and tease out some of those management skills?
speaker-0: Yes, yeah, I think so. And one thing that we've we've started to do more recently is really understand an individual's personality a lot more and who they are and what makes them tick and and then how we can get the best out of them. And we we started that process kind of with yourself, James, through through the training sessions that we've done with you, but we've really brought that in house and It started with the team that we were already working with and we were looking at the disc profiles. We we ran a really great workshop that people got a lot out of. You know, not everyone does it and not everyone understands how they work themselves. So it was great to see how they responded to that and see how maybe how the directors, that was the key thing that everyone was interested in. How are how are these people that are leading us, how do they operate? But we slowly brought that into the recruitment process. So through interview work we now have the disk analysis and we ask them to rate themselves. Not for any reason to then not hire anyone, but it just helps us see, okay, where might this person best fit in the team. We know that they maybe have some technical skills that that might suit them more to the industrial sector. But you know, which which people should we get to train them? Because you know, if if if they're not going to react well to someone who's quite authoritative and direct, then actually we're probably not going to get the best out of that person. And when they're starting their career because they're probably going to be a grad, then they really they need that. So it it's been quite a successful process. we've really seen some great changes in in how everyone's working together.
speaker-2: That's fab. So f so so going back to kind of the that that growth and the time of growth and bringing lots of people in and the you you had that gap in in kind of management. You'd you know, you would you didn't have people stepping into a bit of that that space that you wanted it to. How what did that mean for you and I guess with the you know, the the the handful of you that were leading the business, the kind of senior leadership team, how did that what kind of challenges came up for you to be leading the business as brilliantly as you could?
speaker-0: It ultimately it it was a lot of pressure. A lot of pressure because you know, th I I spoke earlier about those challenging projects don't come forward often, but they do come forward and actually, you know, eight or nine years later they they come a lot more and we're we're seeing a lot more now. So when those when those projects came on, really they fell to the to the associate and director levels to look after. But then we were also still doing training and we were still doing management and it it there just wasn't there weren't enough hours in the day, there weren't enough hours in the week. It was a it was a lot really. And we we got to the point where we just really longed for this middle middle level, this middle management team who could operate on a number of levels really because we we couldn't hear as well what the junior team were trying to tell us because we were focused so much on on kind of the training and getting our own work done. And we felt that because there wasn't this senior level that the juniors were a bit reluctant, you know, possibly afraid to come and raise those issues to us because they weren't sure how we were going to respond and actually were the big scary bosses. And we never ever tried to have that persona, but I think naturally it just happens with with young staff. So what we roughly strategised was kind of a senior management team to try and help with those challenges. and bring that kind of middle sounding board kind of empower the this that senior level to take up a lot of of the management and and leadership skills and develop them a bit more and just allow us to kind of speak between the juniors and and the senior team more effectively. And at the time it felt like yeah this is a great idea, this is a really fantastic opportunity. But it didn't it didn't quite work out in that way because we didn't have the strategy. The only thing we had was, you know, the four or five of us at you know, the the higher level team. We've seen what we can do and we've seen it be effective. So let's just do that again and it'll all be great. And we didn't we didn't really think about you know we knew who we wanted to be in the team, but we weren't looking at personalities at that point. So we didn't really think closely how they would work together because we just thought, well, we all worked really great together. So it surely this is cut and paste, fine. Yeah.
speaker-1: There's a few things that jump out for me there, Emily. First of all, although you perhaps didn't intend on it, you actually started off with a fairly flat structure. And there's a lot of organisations that really strive and value for that. But the reality of it is it can be really hard to make it work. And, you know, having that mid layer in takes some of the pressure off senior management, gives someone that the frontline guys can go and talk to, the consultants can go and t go and talk to. And And, you know, it's that buffer in between that also helps with translation as well from from from the senior team. However, it sounds like that whilst in theory that was perhaps the right model for you, the the the mix, the makeup of that team wasn't quite right for you.
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, exactly that. And it was it was something b that we picked up a little bit later into that the development of that team. So, you know, people have core strengths and core personality traits that aren't visible. And what what we've seen over, you know, the first two, three years of those individuals' careers was what they let us see and we'd identified, you know, really strong leaders that that could make decisions and perhaps that they could lead that team and you know, maybe the more quieter people who could think about things more logically and, you know, maybe that would work. What we actually saw was the people that were more quiet really did want to lead, but just felt overpowered and then became really unsatisfied that they weren't being given a chance. And and all of that was then going on in somewhere that we couldn't see because they didn't want to show us. So what we started to see was things to fall apart and it was almost too late at that point. so understanding how that team was going to work together and th and their personalities would have been, you know, probably a really useful tool.
speaker-1: Sorry,
speaker-0: Say that again, sorry.
speaker-1: what were the signals that that it wasn't working?
speaker-0: So we'd we'd have regular meetings between the senior management team and the directors and associate team and what we found was we could maintain those meetings, but over time less and less would come out of it and we'd get more repeat questions of Well what well what do you mean you want us to do that? And we'd say, Okay, well We talked about this in the last meeting, let's explore it a little bit further so you're ready to talk about it next week, next meeting. But then we'd have the same question again. Right. So it w it it was almost people were losing confidence because they felt like they weren't doing what we needed them to do. Then it changed to postponing of meetings. Right. And ev you know, things just became quieter, they just the communications weren't there. And then you could really see it in individuals. So when we were having appraisals and catch ups, you know, there was a bit of a change in their confidence and you know potentially they were self reflecting thinking they're they're not doing a a a good job, whereas we we thought they were. But you know, those were the key things really just communication just kind of slowly went downhill.
speaker-1: And sorry James, I've I'm on a bit I'm on a bit of a roll here, if if you'll just allow me. And you you said earlier that there was no strategy and at the senior level you you were kind of in the mode of just thinking if you did the same as what you've done before it would still all work out. So when you started to see this mid layer not really measure up, not do what you needed them to do, what was the how how where were you with actually having a strategy at that point or were you still in the rinse and repeat, rinse and repeat kind of approach? Or were you at a point where you had a strategy and you were kind of expecting that team to kind of get it and help to you know to
speaker-0: I think at that point we we realised, okay, we need to bring this into a strategy now. We need to almost reset and and start from again and you know, bring the team back together again. So that was really the key point that we really got in touch with James and we did a lot of workshops with them and they went on their own kind of team building day to try and build those relationships and that trust with each other. but I think it was a little bit too late at that point. you know, they they'd already lost too much confidence and we were just finding it really hard to build them back up to what we wanted. And we felt that rather than really try and force this new strategy and this reimagining of it that we wanted to, we kind of needed to let go and we needed to take the pressure off that team who were, you know, starting to suffer, take that pressure off, have a rethink about what we want as this direct a team, what we want to achieve and what is the most effective way we're gonna get there, really, without over pressurising and you know, damaging someone's experience of their career and what they want to achieve.
speaker-2: Well imagine 'cause what obviously what you've you've talked to is kind of some of those almost horizontal challenges of how we're how we're getting our teams and the people on the front line, as Roger said, to to to communicate with us, to to be hearing us properly. Did it did it also create maybe some of the vertical challenges as well, kind of almost silos between the different teams and maybe even at senior level? Did you start to s say actually we're we're almost working on our own too much?
speaker-0: there was there was definitely an element of that. you know, we try and touch base with it with everyone at the start of every week. but I think as the company grew and we were trying to hold on to everyone having input in those meetings, it just it became it became too much. So we've developed a new strategy that we were really cautious that siloing would be an issue, which I think was why we try and avoided it. We just for so long we just stayed away from that. Let's just keep everyone talking at the same time about what they're doing individually, but then that's its own challenge because people stop listening. So what we did was move away from that kind of three core junior senior director. Then the seniors will talk to the juniors and you know, if that that kind of situation. What we've done now is kind of bring everyone together within smaller teams. So, you know, we're a lot bigger, but what that's meant is we have a we have now have a lot more capability to service a lot a lot more of different areas. So rather than just looking at land development, we also now have an ecological team, we have a land development team, we have a permitting team. And those teams have now individually grown. So we've created kind of working groups in each of those teams that have their own responsibilities and and own feedback processes to make sure that we're not being siloed. Everyone's talking to each other and we can have much more focused development and progression within those within those teams, which is which is actually being quite nice. Really, you can see people progressing more naturally at their own pace, fully supported by the key team leaders who who kind of specialise in those areas, which has been really great.
speaker-2: And how have you managed to maintain the consistency across those working groups? That sounds like a brilliant way to address and break down some of those barriers of communication and allow just allow the easy access and just open access to people. How have you made sure inadvertently you haven't then created some really good vertical working groups? How do you how do you keep that consistency across the top? That that lose it.
speaker-0: Yeah, so it's the working groups are formed of a mix of director and associate level. So we're we're still talking about, you know, the the people who've got the core knowledge in those areas. And not everyone, not every director or associate is in every group. So we're in groups that we're we're interested in, our own interests lie. Which means people are invested, the leaders of those groups are invested in what's happening because they have a full understanding of how That sector is working, of who the client base is, and where the potential opportunities for growth are, you know, what's the new technology coming up that we can focus on. And that keeps it exciting. And all of the individual groups, because they've all got those people, they're all excited. And then we have our leader working group meetings where the leaders of each team come together. And because there's so much drive, and you know, it's just a that just brings it all together and keeps everything ticking over nicely. It's a it's been a really successful approach and something that, you know, we're just gonna continue driving forward.
speaker-1: That's really interesting 'cause I think if I understand what you're describing there, it seems like you've built good horizontal alignment. You know, vertical alignments really quite straightforward in terms of a concept anyway. You know, where you've got a strategy, plan, set of goals, and you want everyone in the business to kind of work in support of those. So there needs to be some alignment that way up. Fine, get that. But then the horizontal alignment that's a bit more challenging because that's about making sure that people are collaborating, people are not duplicating, people understand the dependencies and that they have on each other and on team upon team and so on. So with these groups as you describe them, has that definitely helped sort of strengthen that sort of horizontal alignment for you?
speaker-0: Yeah, I think so. And it's it's helped with the with the other teams as well, because when we we do a lot of knowledge share. So, you know, the way that we avoided the siloing was that people within the teams are all talking to each other, they all know what what projects they're working on and they're all excited about their own work. But then we do a lot of C P D and we've got case studies and presentations that we give to the whole team, and that's directors too, which is been really good to pique people's interest and go, Ooh, I didn't know we could do that. Maybe I could get involved in in that way and then it kind of gets shared around. So then everyone, even around the teams, are all invested in in how we're progressing. And actually I'd be really interested to help out with some of that research on ammonia assessments and things like that. So it it strengthens it even more because everyone's aware of everything that's going on.
speaker-1: Okay. So people are still in a functional team but they're also in a working group. Is that is that the way that it works?
speaker-0: for the for the most part, so it it doesn't happen often that people will split off into a you know, do some work in a different team, but we just we like to let our junior team know that there are opportunities. that, you know, thinking back to some of the challenges in the earlier days where, you know, everyone did everything because we all could and there it didn't no one really got into much detail about the core project. And it it felt really great for the juniors, but then they very quickly wanted to specialise. So we'd specialise them and then then they they don't want to do that anymore and they've they've remembered all of the other opportunities that they've got and actually were getting really unsatisfied that they were just being forced down this one route of you can only do this now. So what we've learnt from that is okay, you know, we can see you enjoy this. We don't want you doing work that you don't enjoy. But If you do want to dip into something else, we will support you through that and we will provide the training. So I think it's it's just providing more opportunity, keeping people focused on what they enjoy, but still allowing some movement and and getting involved in other elements.
speaker-1: Mm.
speaker-2: And were there other things you thought about doing before kind of embarking on the working groups with their ideas floating around the senior leadership team? We're thinking, why we try this or try that? Or that you kind of either parked or even attempted and maybe quickly realize it it it wasn't making the progress that you've now seen.
speaker-0: think we we definitely we definitely tried to to get that senior middle level team. We we really sat down for quite a while and thought how how could we make this work better? Who who do we want to be involved in, what level? And how can we make it work? How can we get that output? But I think it just we just couldn't get there and I think we needed to step away from that one, two, three and just kind of focus everyone on their specialist areas that you know they could develop in.
speaker-2: Yeah. Yeah. Has it made a difference? sorry, Emily gone.
speaker-0: No, I was I was just gonna say I think other other than that, we just got to this working group and it just meant you could as a director I could focus in on the areas that I wanted to see and I could provide my experience of that topic rather than having this senior team and just expecting them to know everything. Yeah.
speaker-2: Yeah, that and that's the question I was gonna ask was what's it allowed you to do as as an SLT? What's that opened up? You read my mind?
speaker-0: Time, just just time to at some point just sit back and watch, which I know sounds really weird, but just see see how how things are going, how are people working together, how are projects developing? How is our skill level developing? What do we need to focus on for the next six months? do we need to have a think about? restructuring those teams, bringing smaller teams within them. is there an entirely new sector that actually we can do, we can work on that. Let's bring it in and and develop a new team for that. It's it's just given time back to see it all from from a much higher level.
speaker-2: Mm. And is is there space there for your managers that you've brought up who now are b who are working as you want to to the is there the space there for them to bring some of that thinking around actually this is where I think we could reorganise or this is where we could you know, markets and areas we could dive into?
speaker-0: Yeah, exactly. That that is what we want out of our leaders working group meetings. You know, there's an agenda that comes out of it and you know, we'll start off with the key the key focus areas. How are the finances doing? How is the team working? Have we got any bottlenecks that we need to be concerned about? And then it's about right, bring it to the table. Have we got any have we got any ideas, any any key points that you want to see come out of this, really?
speaker-1: I think the thing which I really am loving about what you've dis what you've created here, Emily, is that you've kind of collapsed the hierarchy a little bit. And I guess as much as anything, perhaps I'm guessing that was maybe from the observations, the lessons that you had from before when people didn't want to come and talk to the senior team, even though you weren't big and scary. They kind of thought you might be. Yeah. So the the working group kind of allows everyone to be literally at the same status, so to speak, at the same level. and I think that's really that's really interesting. That's really interesting that that. Especially seeing that, you know, you you're not a massive organization. You haven't got a huge amount of people that you can kind of to play with is not is not the right description. But I mean, you know options, I suppose, in terms of how you can organise yourselves is probably the right way to put it. but it seems like how how l how long have you been doing this, taking this approach for now?
speaker-0: Cool. I think we started the working groups about two years ago. Okay. All right. About two years.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Exactly that. And long enough to know that that was the right decision, that this is successful now, we need to keep going with it. And long enough that we don't need to put all our energy into it as directors. So when we first started them, my word, my email inbox was just full of invitations to all the different working groups that were we were starting up and it was It was quite a lot, you know, talking about pressure, that really felt pressured. But, you know, we had to we had to make the strategy for each one of them and we had to make them work. and we started off with kind of monthly meetings for each group. And we're now at the point where most groups will only meet quarterly. And, you know, the the groups that we really want to focus on, maybe we do keep those a bit more regularly. But yeah, long enough we've been doing it long enough that we're kind of in this comfortable rhythm. And we know that if something changes Well we just bring it back in and we meet more regularly and we get those really focused conversations coming out of it. Yeah.
speaker-1: You you've got a nice model here, I think, which a lot of other businesses could probably learn from to be honest.
speaker-0: Yeah, we're we're really pleased with it and you spoke before about kind of removing that hierarchy. And I think it it just sort of materialized, this hierarchy element kind of materialised without us realising because when you're working as a team of three, four, five, you're all really tight, you're best mates, you can tell each other everything and you know you're not afraid to ask silly questions and you know, talk about problems that your youth see as a massive thing but you know your director doesn't. And I think without noticing as that team grew, the juniors developed their own kind of network and couldn't felt they couldn't break into this really tight knit senior team, so just didn't. And I think what we needed to do was reset that without having that senior level. And Part of that was also letting go from our perspective. Yeah, we need to open up as directors, we need to be more approachable and and come to you and see if everything's okay. And and I think that that has built into the working groups as well.
speaker-1: So if I may, and what kind of sort of personal transition have you gone through in this? Has it been quite a challenge for you in in the way that you you know, your leadership and management style over the over the past few years?
speaker-0: One of the key things that came out of my disc profile is I hate change. And yeah, I really, really need to be led through change and you need to convince me of why this is gonna work. And if we're gonna talk about change, I'm gonna be the person in the corner that puts you through hell. I will ask a hundred questions and really challenge you. and I you know, if you asked any of my colleagues That would be the one thing that they'd say, you know, Emily really pushes against change. So for me, there was a lot of self-reflection that had to come into that. And there was a lot that I had to let go of. You know, for me, this was my baby, you know, f it's my career. I've never done anything. I started as a graduate consultant and I'm here now as director. And to let go and remember that we've built this team that can do exactly what we need them to do and get the same outcomes, if not better. than what I was doing at that time. So for me it was a really personal kind of you need to let go of this, you need to trust the team around you and just know that they'll get through it. And, you know, if they come across challenges, they can talk to me and I'll help them learn from it and then they'll become even stronger.
speaker-1: Hm. That's a story we've heard we hear many times, isn't it, James?
speaker-2: It is. It is absolutely that. And and you know, a lot of the work, you know, Roger does and and that I do or we do together is very much taking businesses through change and it's got to start with the leaders. You know, they've got to they've got to be ready for the change. Yeah. And and advocate it and, you know, be the champions of it. And it's really difficult, as you say, Emily, when when your natural style is I d I like steadiness, I like stability, I like knowing what is predictable and safe and what I've spent ten years of my career growing up through through. and and in that did you did it also help tease out some of the real strength of your peer group in the SLT and potentially some of their fears as well that might come to play?
speaker-0: Yeah, yeah, I think so. It it almost I don't know. I think through through some of the the convers you know, the challenging conversations that we had with that team when we were working with them, you know, a lot of the feedback that they gave was that they just they weren't sure where they needed to be. And yeah. I think I think that was that was one of the biggest challenges for them that they couldn't they couldn't see where we wanted them to be and I think we were just hoping that they find their way through it. Right.
speaker-2: Yeah. And it is that balance, isn't it? You you don't want to show people necessarily and say, Hey you are, here's the answer, here's your here's your success, here's your career progression. Yeah. You you want them to want you know, you wanna see that I guess that hunger and that ambition. Yeah. And knowing that they can come to you and that actually they've you know they can easily find where those opportunities are, but it's good that it's that marriage in the middle, isn't
speaker-0: Yeah, and I and I think, you know, that that whole copy and paste, we we had the hunger and the drive because if we didn't, we weren't gonna exist. And I think we j we were looking at them going, Why why don't you have this hunger and drive? And it was yeah, there was just a complete there was the bit in the middle that was missing that the that communication of let you know, this is where we want you to be and this is why you need the drive and this is what you'll get if you have that drive. That was just wasn't tying up.
speaker-1: So from all this, and it sounds like you've been on one heck of a journey, both personally and as a as a team and as an as an organization, what are the key lessons that which perhaps you'd known earlier? but now you know them, you you're ready for the road ahead.
speaker-0: Strategy is the big the biggest thing. Having having that solid strategy, not just a kind of wouldn't it be a great idea if we had this team? Yeah, sounds good. Let's just speak to them on Monday and see if they want to do it. No, it you know, we need to really look into this and understand what's the end goal of that team or what's the continuing operation of that team, who's gonna be involved in it, and how do we see their roles working because we don't want to have complete control over who does what, but I think having an understanding of how it might work at least then opens you up to that conversation with those individuals to say, look, I think we've got a real opportunity for you here. We see you doing this. Are you up for it? Are you excited? Do we need to rethink it? And then bringing that all together. And I think having both those elements, that strategy and understanding of how people work. was the key bit that we were missing out of the senior management team and we look back now on and go, yeah, we could have missed we might have missed a really oppos really big opportunity there. And you know, we've come out with a different approach, which is working really well for us, but it's almost that what could have been if we'd actually approach this from a calm, reasoned angle and not just we need to put up something together and make it work. And so those are the two big ones, but I think the other element from my perspective is having that trust in the team around you and letting go just a little bit. it's it's amazing what people can achieve when you let them achieve it. And I think that it's been really great to see and yeah, I wish I'd done that a little bit earlier, I think.
speaker-2: Sounds like you've described Patrick Lencioni's model of of functional or dysfunctional teams perfectly there with trust at the bottom and then everything you said about through this through this conversation around people taking that commitment and stepping up and wanting to own it and you know, the the point you've got to with with a good open sharing of of how are we doing, what are we learning, you know, where do we go from here? And I I suppose as we kind of bring this to a bit of a close and and reflecting on the growth you've talked about from three people to almost thirty one people. But you mentioned you hit a ceiling of about twenty five, twenty six, but you've gone past that. You've realized, as you just shared, what some of the lessons were. sharing as what you can, I sort, you know, totally respect there might be things that you're you're working on in quietly in the background, but kind of what's next for Redmore and what what's giving you and your colleagues and if maybe the business the absolute confidence that you're going to win it, you're going to do it.
speaker-0: Yeah. I mean it's it's nothing new. We just want to continue to grow. we're we're all really proud of the reputation that we have in the northwest and why not have it as the UK? you know, we really wanna we really wanna push that growth, but in a sustainable way and in a healthy way that means we're getting the most out of our junior team who feel constantly supported and they've got that that leadership above them. But But also allows us as leaders to focus on the key areas that are going to allow that growth and and you know, look at where we can move into across the UK and what other sectors can we get involved with whilst keeping the technical excellence that we've got. and how do I know that's gonna work? Because of the team around me. we have been really lucky over the last two years I would say and we have managed to bring in some fantastic senior team members that have got a wealth of experience in sectors that we haven't really looked at before. We've never done much in business development, but one of our team members that came in has a lot of experience in that and they're really bringing the junior team into that world, which I think is is great for them. It's a whole nother level of career that you've just never done before at university, all of that networking and attending events and and things like that. So having that additional support and those working groups that we've got around us, I'm yeah, we're gonna do it. We'll just keep growing. I'm a lot more confident growing up from thirty one now than I was around that twenty five, twenty six about trying to push to thirty. That was making me nervous.
speaker-1: Mm. Fantastic. Fantastic. I so it's a great story that you shared there, Emily. And I think I genuinely think you've got a model which is has a lot of value in it and could could be could be picked up by others. So if people wanted to actually reach out to you, how could they do that?
speaker-0: Yep, so my contact details are available on our website and I can share them with you guys. I've got quite a long email address, just because Jethro set me up ten years ago with my full name. So it's it is Emily Pearsing at red hyphen env dot co dot uk
speaker-1: Well I'll make sure that that goes in the show notes with
speaker-0: Yes, that's
speaker-1: the with the website address. Can people find you on LinkedIn as well?
speaker-0: I am on LinkedIn, yes, reach out to me on LinkedIn and we can pick up anything from my experience of growing through the last ten years. yeah, or anything air quality related.
speaker-1: Amazing. Thank you so much, Emily. I'm sure James you'll join me in saying that this has been a really great conversation. It's it's it it's been it's been really, really revealing, I think, in terms of you know how you've how you've you you you've approached the challenges. so thank you very much to those of you out there listening. hope you found this to be another really insightful conversation about how Some organizations go about connecting strategy to results. I think we've heard a really good example of how an organization in some respects has actually reshaped itself. and to to to do exactly that and has obviously done it very successfully. So Emily, thank you again for joining us.
speaker-0: Thank you. It's been great to be here.
speaker-1: You're very welcome. And James and I shall see you all very soon. Thanks very much now. Indeed.
