Stepping into Kingdom Justice with Michelle Ferrigno Warren

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>> Paul: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, your
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source for insights and ideas on how to lead your church in
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the 21st century. At the Future Christian
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Podcast, we talk to pastors, authors
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and other faith leaders for helpful advice and practical
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wisdom to help you and your community of faith
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walk boldly into the future. Whether
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you're a pastor, church leader, or a passionate member
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of your faith community, this podcast is
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designed to challenge, inspire, and equip
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you with the tools you need for impactful ministry.
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And now for a little bit about the guest for this episode.
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>> Martha Tatarnic: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast. Today,
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Loren Richmond Jr. Welcomes Michelle
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Farigo Warren to the show.
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Michelle is the president of Farigo
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Strategies, a consulting group which
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provides strategic engagement and project
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management support for churches and
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nonprofits. Stepping more deeply into the
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work of public justice. She has been working
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in Christian community development for over 30
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years, utilizing her skills as an
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educator, worship leader, nonprofit
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manager, public policy specialist, and
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faith rooted organizer and activist.
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She is an adjunct professor at Denver
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Seminary and a senior fellow with the Dietrich
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Bonhoeffer Institute. She is a fierce
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advocate for justice and has shared much of her
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journey towards civic engagement and activism in
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her books the Power of
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Moving Beyond Awareness to Action
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and Join the Step into
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the Good Work of Kingdom Justice.
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A reminder. Before we start today's
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conversation, please take a moment to subscribe
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to the podcast, leave a review and share
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Future Christian with a friend. Connect with
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Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
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Instagram. Shoot us an email at, uh,
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laurensonediaproah.com
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with comments, questions or ideas for
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future episodes. We appreciate your
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voice in how we faithfully discern the future
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of the church.
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>> Loren: All right, welcome to the Future of Christian podcast. I'm, um,
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here recording live in person at, uh, Open
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Door Ministries in Denver, Colorado with
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Michelle Fergno. Warren. Thank you so much
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for being here. Thank you for your time and uh, welcome to
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the show, Loren.
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>> Speaker D: Thanks for having me. I'm glad to have the conversation. And thanks for coming to Open
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Door.
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>> Loren: As I was explaining offline, I always
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enjoy in person conversations more than like we
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talked about staring at a screen trying to
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read, uh, you know, a flat surface
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so listeners will probably notice.
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Michelle, uh, and I are a little scratchy throated, so please
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forgive us for the, uh, audio quality
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if our vocal, uh, quality is not as good as
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we might like. But we're looking forward to having this conversation
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and um, looking forward to hearing more
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in the conversation.
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So let's, let's begin with this, uh, Sheriff Juice Wood.
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Anything else you want listeners to know about you?
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>> Speaker D: Well, that is a really broad question, so I thank
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you for that. You know, I've been married for 31 years.
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I share that because it's good work, but it's probably the hardest
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work.
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>> Loren: Yes.
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>> Speaker D: And so my husband and I were college sweethearts. I have
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three kids. They're all adults. Um, two lawyers and an
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engineer. So I'm very excited about that. But,
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you know, mostly. And we'll get into the conversation,
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but one of the things that I like to share
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is that I strive to be a good neighbor. And.
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And in the Christian faith, that holds a lot of
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weight. And so, yeah, so I would just say that I'm
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practicing being a good neighbor and had been
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trying to do that since my eyes got opened
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to not just the concept of being a neighbor, but
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having neighbors who have had different experiences.
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Lived experiences. And. Yeah, just
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walking in life with each other along our
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ways.
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>> Loren: Why don't we go into that a little bit? Uh, I usually ask
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folks to share about the beginning of the faith journey,
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what that looks like today. I don't know if you're willing to kind of frame
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it through that lens. You mentioned your eyes being opened.
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If you can share a little bit more about that.
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>> Speaker D: Yeah. So I think it's good to start
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kind of in the sort of the beginning and trajectory, because I think your
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formation is how you begin to see and
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shape the world. And I was born into a
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Catholic family, so I have Catholic roots.
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And my parents, um, came
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to a different expression of their Christian faith
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when I was in. When I was 5. And that
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doesn't seem like it should be that big of a transition, but
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it was, because as they stepped. They didn't step out
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of Catholicism. They stepped into a
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different expression. I like to refer to it as a
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generous Christian orthodoxy. Um,
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anyway, so I think they were kind of part of the Jesus
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movement, and some of that captured them.
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And they ended up actually going to
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a church that was fundamentalist. They
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don't know if they realized all of what they had chosen. And, you
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know, they put me in private Christian schools because that
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was what was starting back in. I guess that would have been
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1976.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: And so. Yeah, and so that was a lot of. My formation
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was actually a Christian
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fundamentalism. And what I didn't catch
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Sunday morning, Sunday night, and Wednesday night was
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reinforced Monday through Friday. And I don't want to
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criticize that, because I was loved and I was nurtured.
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And maybe. Maybe there's some things I could say that I wasn't
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seeing with my potential as A girl.
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>> Loren: Right.
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>> Speaker D: But my parents were not a part of that
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indoctrination. You know, they had walked out of
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Catholicism and had felt like a lot of their formation was
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centered around guilt and shame, and so they weren't going to take anything.
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But I think for me, being an oldest child,
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trying to be a good girl, I'm an enneagram one. You know, I
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think I just adopted all of that Christian culture that
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even my m parents didn't put on. I kind of thought they were bad
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at being born again. Anyway, that brought me to,
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you know, college, and I chose to go to Cedarville University.
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>> Loren: Yes.
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>> Speaker D: Which is a very conservative school. It was not as
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conservative as the high school I went to.
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>> Loren: Interesting.
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>> Speaker D: So this is kind of me stepping.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: And I would say was nothing was a rebellion or a
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reaction. It was just a broadening of my
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experience. It was great to be at Cedarville. You know, being 18 to
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22 is awesome. I met in my
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future husband there. We were college sweethearts and married
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soon after we graduated, then moved down to Texas for three
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years. During our time in college, we had both
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done a lot of community ministry and outreach.
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I had done tutoring in a, um,
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girl's home that, you know, people that were not juvenile
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detention, but kind of like that. My husband David, was
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doing a lot of street outreach work in
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Cincinnati. And without getting into too many of the
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details, as the two of us were coming together, we knew that we
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wanted to have a life
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that would be centered around
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people who were very poor and that we
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didn't want to live in a different community, that we would
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be committed to working,
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worshiping, and living in the same
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community. And that really set off a trajectory
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for that neighboring piece. Because in my mindset, a
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neighbor was who lived next to me.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: And because of socioeconomic status, because of
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education, they all pretty much look like us. Um,
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maybe not at the moment. You would see distinctives, but compared
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to where I was ready to begin to plant my roots
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and raise our family. And we've been in Denver. We were in
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Dallas for a few years, and then in Denver these almost 30
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years, it has changed everything. And
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that has, you know, faith isn't some abstract that
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you kind of check in. It's a part of who you are. Your
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spirituality is a part of who you are. My faith is
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rooted in Christ and his words and, you know, his
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word. And trying to embody my hermeneutic
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is Jesus. So I'm trying to embody, you know, his love in
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action. And that is really what has
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Shaped my faith is just the difference of neighbors
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and the struggles of life, the struggles of community.
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Going back to Jesus and trying to see, okay,
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really, what does it mean to love my neighbor as, you know,
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my neighbor as myself. What does it mean to love my
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enemy? Uh, et cetera, et cetera.
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>> Loren: Yes.
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Well, share, if you would, any kind of spiritual
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practices, spiritual disciplines that are
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meaningful for you or help you stay
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grounded.
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>> Speaker D: I mean, I was brought up to be a good fundamentalist. So, I mean, I'm very.
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I was very good at doing all of what I
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call Sunday school. You know, I was, I was. I
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think I wrote in my book Join the Resistance that I was taught to
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love God, love others, and be a very good
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Pharisee. You know, that, um, was really what I was trained to
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do. So my spiritual practices have deviated a little bit.
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I mean, it is definitely centered around, you know, God's
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word. I just really think there's a lot to learn from the
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Bible. I also think there's a lot to learn from the saints who
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come before us and those who are with us now. So
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a lot of my practices changed after Covid,
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and so some of them are going to sound funny, but it's
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actually a spiritual action. Um, spiritual practice
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of walking.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: And, you know, St. Augustine has kind of coined the phrase, it is
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solved by walking or Salvatore on
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balando. And so I just really feel like there's something
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very deeply meaningful and spiritual in that practice
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of walking and all of the different things that you think
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about and listen to and pray along the way and see
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even what you see.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: Another thing is, is I'm always growing something, no matter
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what it is year round. Because I think
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especially the work that I do, living and working and worshiping in the
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communities that are forgotten or that are
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vilified on the news. I live in a, an immigrant community
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and have, you know, for almost three decades.
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I need to see hope alive. So
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hope isn't something you're going to see. It's not about the present, it's about the
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future.
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>> Loren: Amen.
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>> Speaker D: Um, and when you look at a seat and this is the spiritual
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practice of taking something that looks like
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trash or dirt, and you put it
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in that dirt and you embed it and you
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put it in the right elements and you don't see the
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underground activity of all that growth and
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breaking that happens. And then all of a sudden, this new life.
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I'm kind of addicted to growth and the, and the growth of
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life. So I honestly am always growing something.
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Not maintaining, but growing Something from seed,
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you know, in all year round. And then,
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you know, I spend some time journaling. I don't do as much as I used
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to because I'm a different person
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now. Um, but I definitely follow the Christian
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calendar practices of Lent and Advent. You
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know, I. I read and pray.
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But I would say what characterizes the
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post 50 versus the pre 50,
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Michelle, is I do everything in
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my spiritual discipline. Slower.
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>> Loren: That's a good lesson right there. I'm
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thinking as we're recording this,
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there's sitting to my left,
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Michelle, your right, an Advent wreath.
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And we're coming up on Joy Sunday. I
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believe in Advent. Hope was the first Sunday. Is that right?
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>> Speaker D: Hope, peace, joy, love, worship. Pastor. You know I'm going
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to do that, right?
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>> Loren: Yeah. Well, that's great. We're here to
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talk a little bit about Michelle and
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her broad work. Her book Join the
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Resistance, and
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I think evangelicalism writ large. I
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suppose we'll see where it goes.
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But I think I, uh, suppose you've
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already sort of identified this in beginning to talk
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about your. As you mentioned, your eyes
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being opened. Is there anything else you want to share
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about a call or a prompting that
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really. Certainly, uh, in the Christian
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tradition, I imagine for me, and I imagine for
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you also, people talk about a call
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of God on their lives. Do you want to share
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anything that resonates there?
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>> Speaker D: There's definitely different points that I have had that. And it's
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not that I wouldn't want to share it. I just don't know if
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one's more significant than the other. You know, it's just a
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series of stepping into the next hard thing.
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>> Loren: Okay.
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>> Speaker D: And really a surrender.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: To God and his requests.
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Am I willing to go? You talked about my book during the
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resistance before I wrote Join the Resistance, after we had
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been living out this working, worshiping.
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Because that is a call in itself.
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>> Loren: Right.
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>> Speaker D: I mean, I have three kids. I put them in the worst
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schools in the worst community.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: When I say worst, I mean by statistics.
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>> Loren: Right.
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>> Speaker D: And I trusted that that seed going into that dirt
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would result in beauty. And so all of
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that is a call. It's actually obedience to a
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call. And so getting a call versus living at
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your call, you know, they should be connected. And so that's probably
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been the story of my life. But the first book I wrote, after
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we'd been doing it for about 24, 24 years before I published
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my first book, was called the Power of Proximity.
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And it was because of that seeing, you know,
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you can't fix problems. You don't understand.
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>> Loren: Right.
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>> Speaker D: And so how are you going to move from an awareness
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of something? And for me it was an awareness of issues
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that my neighbors were facing. Some people are hearing about
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it on the news here in Denver. We had a lot
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of Venezuelan migrants coming these last two years, more
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in our city per capita than any other city, including
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Chicago and New York for two years. And so
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you're hearing about the story of immigrants and it may
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move you from an awareness to I want to do something which is
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great. I think that is deeply spiritual, important,
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human as well. Response. For me,
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I was living with immigrants in proximity to
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immigrants and proximity to the poor, in
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proximity to working class and proximity to the homeless
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and all the different people groups, I guess you could say, even though
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we were just one big community, right at Open Door
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Fellowship and in my neighborhood it
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was powerful because it moved me from an
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awareness of injustice
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to a, ah, question of what was I going to do with what I
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knew and how was I going to move and
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be authentic in solidarity? Because I do community
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development and I mean I do activism and advocacy too.
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But it's with this community development and organizing model that you
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never do anything to a community or for a community.
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You would do it with it. So they can do it by themselves.
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And so that is really the learning is
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nobody was waiting for me to show up, but when I did,
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how would I humble myself and walk in
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solidarity and do whatever we needed to do
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to do well? And so the power of Proximity really is the
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story of call and
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conviction and also just an invitation to all of
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us. If we can't fix problems we don't understand,
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then how are we going to understand them? Um, that's why Proximity is
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key. And then Join the Resistance is another series which we
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can talk about at some point.
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>> Loren: So let's talk a little bit about
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this aspect of community development because I'm thinking
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about in recent years I've begun to
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study social entrepreneurship. I'm thinking
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of um,
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asset based community development.
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Where is there interlapation for those unfamiliar?
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Someone me. Right. Give a little
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background, details of what that looks like.
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>> Speaker D: Yeah, I can do that. Although this is really painful because I
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teach at a seminary and I teach social concerns and community
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development. So I have way too much, way too
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much information to um, answer that question. So let me try to
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think. I'll re emphasize one thing that I shared.
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Uh, because community development and assets based
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community development is an acknowledgement
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of that a community has resources
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within itself to get it what it
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needs. Uh, sometime it just has not been
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invested in, or it has been
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stripped of its resources and things that are taken,
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uh, so that it can't.
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>> Loren: Right.
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>> Speaker D: And there's a lot of metaphors and a lot of workshops that I actually
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teach churches and nonprofits, and if
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anybody's interested, you know, they contact you to really kind of
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explain that in depth. But I'll
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reemphasize. When you look at communities,
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whether it's from the inside or the outside,
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everybody has potential. It's deeply theological
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in imago dei, in the call to subdue, you know, even
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in the levitical commands to help protect
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vulnerable so that everybody can live to their most
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productive place. And that's the Hebrew word mishpat, or the
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word for justice, to restore people
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and whole societies to their most productive place.
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So when we're talking about doing community development, especially as a
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Christian, how can I be a part of restoring
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people and places to their most productivity? So we need
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to be honest about what's going on, right? And then we need to
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be honest and
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creative and imaginative to believe that we have
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what we need. And so that if you're on the outside, like
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me coming in, I. It's very arrogant posture
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to say, I know what's best, so I'm going to do this to you. It's
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even pretty arrogant to say, I'm going to do it for you. So I always say there's
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four. There's four, um, prepositions for
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community development. You never want to do two or four,
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Right. But you do want to do it with. And that's the
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solidarity. Because communities do need
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accompaniment. Individuals need accompaniment. Here at Open
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Door, we do a lot of individual accompaniment out of
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homelessness, out of addictions. I mean, there's so
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much that communities, because of things
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that have happened. It's not always an individual decision,
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but individuals still make decisions.
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>> Loren: Right?
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>> Speaker D: And so as you walk with people and you walk with whole
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congregations or you walk with whole communities, we're
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doing it together so that eventually
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individuals and communities can do things by itself.
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Think of community development as tutoring. You never want to
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hire a tutor for long because they're expensive. It takes extra
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time. You want to tutor for
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a while. You can't take the test for the student.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: You don't want to belittle and shame and make them freeze.
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But if you have something to offer, how do you
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accompany people and
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places so that we can all
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flourish? Community development
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is based on community organizing.
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Community organizing builds social networks. It
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is a leadership from behind. It doesn't
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mean there's no leadership. It requires some. But the
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community is driving everything. The community is
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dreaming. The community is planning. And we
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assemble. Leadership within and when we need it,
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collaborate without. Because maybe we need extra social networks.
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Definitely economic.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: So that we can imagine if we had all this, what can we
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do together? Holding ourselves accountable. So that's kind of the essence
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of community development. I did that for a very
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long time. I still believe in it. But
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after doing the work, I began to
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realize. Well, I guess let me just say I kept asking questions.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: Much like the Brazilian
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priest who is pretty famous for saying, I can't remember his
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name.
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>> Loren: Gutierrez.
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>> Speaker D: I don't remember his name. I'm so sorry, sir, but that's okay.
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When I gave the poor.
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>> Loren: Yes, Gustavo Gibbs.
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>> Speaker D: Yeah, I was gonna say I couldn't remember. Yeah. When I gave the poor something to
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eat, they called me a saint. When I asked why the poor
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were hungry, they called me a communist. So I've been
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labeled a Marxist, a communist social. I mean, like, that's what
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happens.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: Because I asked questions and I wanted to be a part of that solution.
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And that moves from community development
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into the confrontation of injustice. I'll
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give another metaphor. You don't want to give people a
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fish.
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>> Loren: There's.
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>> Speaker D: You love mercy, so you want to give people fishes. Don't hear
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me wrong. But community development says, I don't want to give you a
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fish perpetually. I want to teach you to a fish.
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Teach you to fish. A, uh, community
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organizer or somebody who's been here for a very long time, like
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myself and others, we know that it's an access
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issue.
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>> Loren: Right? Access to the lake to fish.
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>> Speaker D: Access to the fish. Yeah. It could be the perfects. I
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mean, there's.
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There could be. You could come to our lake. You can use whatever rod you want.
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You can use whatever tackle you want. But you
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need to pay this much money to get this. And you can only be here
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at this hours. Those
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are the kinds of things that lead to
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that have led to people being written out of a system.
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And the system is operating the way it was created to do. And it's
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until we rise up and resist that
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system and do it. And I'm not saying just to be
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difficult, but create disruption,
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advocate, uh, be those prophets.
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Advocacy is the prophetic word and the prophetic work of the
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church to say that, you know what, if these systems are
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not just, then we will not stop
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until everyone has justice.
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>> Loren: Let's dive into that a little bit more because it leads
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into a question. I wanted to Ask you
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around, you identified
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it. Works of mercy versus works of
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justice, uh, which is a bifurcation I often
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hear. And it seems like in some
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contexts churches or Christians are far more
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comfortable with what we might call works of mercy,
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which, like you said, would be giving people a fish
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versus works of justice, which we might define, like you
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said, as opening access to,
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uh, the lake to make sure folks can get to the lake.
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What are your thoughts around? And I think, I
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want to acknowledge that I think there can be some nuance because I
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think there can be some disagreement around what is the best way to
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open up access to the lake. So for that justice,
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that can be complexity. But what are your thoughts? Because, uh,
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it feels like to me that churches and Christians tend to be a
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lot more comfortable with giving out the
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fish, so to speak, to say with that metaphor versus the
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latter. What are your thoughts there? What have you seen?
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>> Speaker D: Oh, my goodness.
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All right. Well, first of all, we're commanded to love mercy. Sometimes people in
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the development space kind of put down
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the giving of a fish.
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>> Loren: Right, right.
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>> Speaker D: And I don't want to do that because we. Mercy is a
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response to a problem. Justice isn't
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a response to a. It is trying to figure out
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why the problem exists and, uh, fixing that.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Speaker D: I've kind of shared a little bit about the, you know, Hebrew
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word for justice. Not going to go into the Hebrew word
498
00:21:59,584 --> 00:22:02,144
for mercy. But we know that we're
499
00:22:02,192 --> 00:22:05,184
committed to love. That little voice
500
00:22:05,232 --> 00:22:08,112
there. We're commanded to love it, which means we should
501
00:22:08,136 --> 00:22:11,024
never get tired of it. And so we're going to always need to
502
00:22:11,032 --> 00:22:13,792
do that posture. And I'm grateful that
503
00:22:13,816 --> 00:22:16,800
churches want to practice some of that loving mercy.
504
00:22:16,880 --> 00:22:19,472
I usually call it outreach, compassionate
505
00:22:19,536 --> 00:22:19,904
acts.
506
00:22:19,952 --> 00:22:20,540
>> Loren: Right.
507
00:22:20,620 --> 00:22:23,118
>> Speaker D: Um, doing
508
00:22:23,174 --> 00:22:25,534
justice is long.
509
00:22:25,702 --> 00:22:26,530
>> Loren: Yeah.
510
00:22:26,950 --> 00:22:29,182
>> Speaker D: And it is always met with resistance.
511
00:22:29,326 --> 00:22:29,870
>> Loren: Yeah.
512
00:22:29,950 --> 00:22:32,750
>> Speaker D: So imagine being a church. And I remember when doing
513
00:22:32,790 --> 00:22:35,502
mercy wasn't so great. I mean I do remember Something happened in
514
00:22:35,526 --> 00:22:38,446
1995 or 6. I can talk to you quite
515
00:22:38,478 --> 00:22:41,102
a bit about how political reform
516
00:22:41,246 --> 00:22:44,094
has either made the church cold or warm
517
00:22:44,142 --> 00:22:46,894
to things. But once the welfare, uh, reform
518
00:22:46,942 --> 00:22:49,602
act happened in 1996, you will begin to see
519
00:22:49,626 --> 00:22:52,386
churches, especially those with middle income security
520
00:22:52,458 --> 00:22:55,390
or higher, all of a sudden loving mercy wasn't so bad.
521
00:22:56,170 --> 00:22:59,042
Right. So there's just an interesting sociological
522
00:22:59,106 --> 00:23:01,490
political lens we won't get there. But
523
00:23:01,530 --> 00:23:03,714
anyway, when you hand
524
00:23:03,802 --> 00:23:06,642
somebody, I mean, we're told this to do, give the hungry
525
00:23:06,706 --> 00:23:09,250
food, you know, give the, give the naked
526
00:23:09,330 --> 00:23:12,162
clothes. We
527
00:23:12,186 --> 00:23:15,042
need to do it. It is, it is not easy. We're called
528
00:23:15,066 --> 00:23:17,992
to love It. Because we have to do it so much. However, you
529
00:23:18,016 --> 00:23:20,872
have an instant gratification. And when you look at
530
00:23:20,896 --> 00:23:23,832
a whole church, you want your people not
531
00:23:23,856 --> 00:23:26,152
just to be absorbers of the word, but
532
00:23:26,176 --> 00:23:28,632
doers. And so to put them on a
533
00:23:28,656 --> 00:23:31,464
trajectory that's going to take an entire lifetime doesn't
534
00:23:31,512 --> 00:23:33,656
seem probably as incentivizing.
535
00:23:33,768 --> 00:23:34,888
>> Loren: Right, right.
536
00:23:34,944 --> 00:23:37,304
>> Speaker D: And I see that with mainline Catholic,
537
00:23:37,432 --> 00:23:38,184
evangelical.
538
00:23:38,232 --> 00:23:38,552
>> Loren: Yes.
539
00:23:38,616 --> 00:23:41,448
>> Speaker D: Got to give our people the good endorphins that they did
540
00:23:41,504 --> 00:23:41,816
something.
541
00:23:41,888 --> 00:23:44,418
>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, I mean, I, uh. We both been in
542
00:23:44,474 --> 00:23:47,266
leadership ministry leadership. We know. Like,
543
00:23:47,418 --> 00:23:50,322
how am I going to get this person engaged? I need to get them a
544
00:23:50,346 --> 00:23:51,746
quick, quick hit.
545
00:23:51,818 --> 00:23:54,818
>> Speaker D: Here's the thing is, I'll take your money. Like, people like, oh, don't just give me your money.
546
00:23:54,874 --> 00:23:57,874
Give me your body. I want your body, too, but if you'll give me that. I
547
00:23:57,882 --> 00:23:58,620
want your money.
548
00:23:58,620 --> 00:23:59,300
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
549
00:23:59,300 --> 00:24:02,002
>> Speaker D: We need your money. We need those acts of
550
00:24:02,026 --> 00:24:04,690
mercy. What I try to challenge people is don't stop
551
00:24:04,730 --> 00:24:07,554
there. Ask God how to move you and extend
552
00:24:07,602 --> 00:24:10,452
you beyond loving mercy to doing justice. Because when
553
00:24:10,476 --> 00:24:13,348
you start to be willing to do justice, that is
554
00:24:13,404 --> 00:24:16,244
slow, uphill, grueling
555
00:24:16,292 --> 00:24:19,092
work. But I think that's the kingdom work. That
556
00:24:19,116 --> 00:24:22,052
is kingdom work. And you just see it
557
00:24:22,156 --> 00:24:25,060
so clear. That's why I said my hermeneutic is
558
00:24:25,100 --> 00:24:27,252
Jesus. I heard that from Tony Campolo.
559
00:24:27,316 --> 00:24:28,996
>> Loren: Yeah. Who just passed. Right.
560
00:24:29,068 --> 00:24:32,020
>> Speaker D: Just passed. Oh, my goodness. He's also the one to
561
00:24:32,140 --> 00:24:34,628
challenge me. A week after the Trump
562
00:24:34,764 --> 00:24:37,716
election, the first time we were in this big prayer group, Jim
563
00:24:37,748 --> 00:24:40,532
Wallace had called a bunch of national leaders, and I think there was like
564
00:24:40,556 --> 00:24:43,392
50, 60 of us in the room, maybe not even that much. It
565
00:24:43,416 --> 00:24:46,256
felt like a big room. We all bowed our head in prayer,
566
00:24:46,288 --> 00:24:49,088
and I heard a gargly voice, and I knew it was Tony. And he's like,
567
00:24:49,144 --> 00:24:51,936
God, help me to find the imago
568
00:24:51,968 --> 00:24:54,640
DEI and Trump. And I was like, why did you have to say
569
00:24:54,680 --> 00:24:57,136
that? So it's been my prayer.
570
00:24:57,248 --> 00:24:57,584
>> Loren: Yeah.
571
00:24:57,632 --> 00:25:00,128
>> Speaker D: I get to use it a little bit more, Right? Yeah, I get to use it.
572
00:25:00,184 --> 00:25:02,848
>> Loren: And maybe today, help me to find the imago DEI in Trump
573
00:25:02,904 --> 00:25:03,600
voters.
574
00:25:03,760 --> 00:25:06,752
>> Speaker D: Oh, for sure. I mean, here's the thing. When you
575
00:25:06,776 --> 00:25:09,716
begin to pray to find the imago DEI and your enemies.
576
00:25:09,888 --> 00:25:11,628
I won't say the Trump is my enemy.
577
00:25:11,724 --> 00:25:12,476
>> Loren: Yeah, but. Sure.
578
00:25:12,548 --> 00:25:14,908
>> Speaker D: But people who. Who will hurt
579
00:25:15,084 --> 00:25:16,316
my community.
580
00:25:16,468 --> 00:25:16,828
>> Loren: Right.
581
00:25:16,884 --> 00:25:19,564
>> Speaker D: And who are against me. Let me phrase it. That. To find the
582
00:25:19,572 --> 00:25:21,596
imago de. And people who are against me.
583
00:25:21,668 --> 00:25:24,000
>> Loren: Yeah. And what you're doing, people I love. Yeah.
584
00:25:24,580 --> 00:25:27,324
>> Speaker D: It is a challenge. But Then I remind myself
585
00:25:27,372 --> 00:25:29,960
of Jesus, my goodness. He said, love
586
00:25:30,420 --> 00:25:33,116
enemies, do good to those
587
00:25:33,268 --> 00:25:36,204
who persecute you. Like that's so mind boggling. So I have
588
00:25:36,212 --> 00:25:38,960
a lot to learn. But as far as the doing justice,
589
00:25:39,350 --> 00:25:42,302
it is a strap in for a
590
00:25:42,326 --> 00:25:44,670
hike. It's the sojourning, it's the
591
00:25:44,710 --> 00:25:47,582
pilgrimage, it's you get to practice the disciple
592
00:25:47,726 --> 00:25:50,494
part of being a Jesus father, which man I gotta love, I
593
00:25:50,502 --> 00:25:53,330
gotta do things I don't want to do. Those Beatitudes are impossible.
594
00:25:53,830 --> 00:25:56,782
And then it's the sojourning pilgrim. I don't
595
00:25:56,846 --> 00:25:59,678
know how convenient or inconvenient this
596
00:25:59,734 --> 00:26:02,558
work is going to be. And so that's why I try to encourage people
597
00:26:02,614 --> 00:26:05,502
we are to honor God is to do the work
598
00:26:05,526 --> 00:26:08,126
of justice. That's the whole theme of the Old Testament. It's
599
00:26:08,158 --> 00:26:11,114
embodied and it's sprinkled all through parables, rules in
600
00:26:11,122 --> 00:26:14,122
the kingdom. And so the work of justice, which I
601
00:26:14,146 --> 00:26:16,570
think we should probably tell our people that in the
602
00:26:16,610 --> 00:26:19,370
Greek the word for righteousness is
603
00:26:19,410 --> 00:26:22,282
also the word for justice. And it
604
00:26:22,306 --> 00:26:25,082
does a very. I believe, yes it is good
605
00:26:25,106 --> 00:26:25,626
job.
606
00:26:25,778 --> 00:26:28,310
>> Loren: Took uh, four semesters many years ago.
607
00:26:29,250 --> 00:26:32,042
>> Speaker D: Well, if we were just to
608
00:26:32,066 --> 00:26:34,922
start to flip that, uh, if we were being
609
00:26:34,946 --> 00:26:37,912
students of God's word and reading the New Testament every time we
610
00:26:37,936 --> 00:26:40,328
saw it's not 100% but a majority of the time when we see the word
611
00:26:40,344 --> 00:26:43,272
righteousness put in justice, it would transform the way
612
00:26:43,296 --> 00:26:44,340
we live it out.
613
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,456
>> Loren: Let's stay on this if I may because I'm thinking
614
00:26:48,488 --> 00:26:51,352
about. I like your point about justice. Well we
615
00:26:51,376 --> 00:26:54,376
interpret righteousness as right living,
616
00:26:54,568 --> 00:26:57,256
perhaps better translated just
617
00:26:57,328 --> 00:26:59,720
living and especially in some
618
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:02,280
circles. And we'll bang on
619
00:27:02,400 --> 00:27:05,178
evangelicals a little bit here. That
620
00:27:05,234 --> 00:27:07,350
right living can be right.
621
00:27:08,850 --> 00:27:11,834
What am I trying to say? Adherence to the
622
00:27:11,842 --> 00:27:13,470
right kind of beliefs. Living.
623
00:27:14,290 --> 00:27:16,714
>> Speaker D: Mhm. So
624
00:27:16,802 --> 00:27:19,390
I get to preach
625
00:27:20,130 --> 00:27:23,082
and on the evangelical churches that will allow women to
626
00:27:23,106 --> 00:27:25,610
preach. So that's a very few and far
627
00:27:25,650 --> 00:27:28,602
between. I preached in my first. The first time I
628
00:27:28,626 --> 00:27:31,490
ever preached was in a mainline church. So I thank them
629
00:27:31,610 --> 00:27:34,130
and respect and appreciate their
630
00:27:34,250 --> 00:27:37,090
recognition of my own gifting and call.
631
00:27:37,130 --> 00:27:40,066
They invited me. So I've preached in lots. I've even given
632
00:27:40,138 --> 00:27:42,802
stuff to Cat like in a homily. So it's kind of been all over the
633
00:27:42,826 --> 00:27:45,778
place. But when evangelicals will allow me to preach,
634
00:27:45,954 --> 00:27:48,834
mostly everybody wants me to talk about the intersection of faith and justice. That's what
635
00:27:48,842 --> 00:27:51,794
I'm known for. That's the work, you know, and that's plus I
636
00:27:51,802 --> 00:27:54,690
think it's easier to get an outside person to speak about
637
00:27:54,730 --> 00:27:57,724
it, because, you know, it's like the prophetic voice, like, well, she was only here
638
00:27:57,732 --> 00:28:00,492
for a week. She's only here for a week. You know,
639
00:28:00,516 --> 00:28:03,452
forget that she was here kind of thing. Um, but. But all
640
00:28:03,476 --> 00:28:06,380
the. I often, almost always exclusively talk
641
00:28:06,420 --> 00:28:09,372
about the connection between righteousness and
642
00:28:09,396 --> 00:28:11,980
justice, because in religious
643
00:28:12,060 --> 00:28:14,812
circles, so it could be mainline, it could be Catholic, could be
644
00:28:14,836 --> 00:28:17,756
evangelical, it could even be non Christian.
645
00:28:17,868 --> 00:28:20,620
But more of this, what I do that
646
00:28:20,660 --> 00:28:23,208
qualifies me, like my religious practices, my
647
00:28:23,284 --> 00:28:26,128
practices, my spiritual piety, that is
648
00:28:26,184 --> 00:28:29,136
not righteousness. Righteousness, uh, and justice.
649
00:28:29,168 --> 00:28:31,792
Because you see them so intrinsically into the Old
650
00:28:31,816 --> 00:28:34,752
Testament, righteousness and justice kind of are paired. And
651
00:28:34,776 --> 00:28:37,180
in the New Testament, same word, even in the Greek.
652
00:28:37,180 --> 00:28:37,780
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
653
00:28:37,780 --> 00:28:40,672
>> Speaker D: It's because they are not disconnected. You
654
00:28:40,696 --> 00:28:43,072
don't do your righteousness and then decide if you want to do
655
00:28:43,096 --> 00:28:45,760
justice. Righteousness is not about
656
00:28:45,880 --> 00:28:48,752
spiritual practices. You need spiritual practices to be
657
00:28:48,776 --> 00:28:51,674
able to live a righteous life. Because righteousness, or the
658
00:28:51,682 --> 00:28:54,362
Hebrew word tsedeq, is the right actions
659
00:28:54,426 --> 00:28:57,306
towards somebody that become justice
660
00:28:57,338 --> 00:29:00,058
for everyone. You can't do righteousness without
661
00:29:00,114 --> 00:29:03,002
justice, because that's what tsedeq, and
662
00:29:03,026 --> 00:29:05,626
that's what the concept of the righteousness
663
00:29:05,658 --> 00:29:08,506
justice connection is. Righteousness as a Christian
664
00:29:08,538 --> 00:29:10,922
is my right actions towards
665
00:29:10,986 --> 00:29:13,306
you, and my right actions are
666
00:29:13,378 --> 00:29:16,202
so right in such a way that it
667
00:29:16,226 --> 00:29:19,172
becomes justice not just for you or me, but
668
00:29:19,196 --> 00:29:21,440
it becomes justice for everyone.
669
00:29:23,100 --> 00:29:26,000
>> Loren: I, uh, appreciate you sharing that. I want to lean into
670
00:29:27,260 --> 00:29:28,852
this big E word.
671
00:29:28,996 --> 00:29:31,412
>> Speaker D: Hey, listen, I have no problem. I'll just let you know, I'm an
672
00:29:31,436 --> 00:29:34,292
evangelical. You can ask me why I want.
673
00:29:34,316 --> 00:29:35,420
>> Loren: To lean into that.
674
00:29:35,420 --> 00:29:38,244
Um, as we talked prior offline, you.
675
00:29:38,332 --> 00:29:40,708
You. You mentioned to me that you've chosen to
676
00:29:40,844 --> 00:29:43,540
retain that word, even though in some
677
00:29:43,580 --> 00:29:46,564
circles, you're seen. If I'm. Hopefully I'm not speaking out
678
00:29:46,572 --> 00:29:49,464
of turn as a bad evangelical, I'm pro.
679
00:29:49,532 --> 00:29:51,260
>> Speaker D: A really lousy evangelical.
680
00:29:51,260 --> 00:29:53,060
>> Loren: Um, conversely,
681
00:29:55,000 --> 00:29:57,792
as you, I think you would admit. Again, I hope I'm not speaking for
682
00:29:57,816 --> 00:30:00,688
you. Evangelicals have done their fair share
683
00:30:00,744 --> 00:30:03,140
of stuff to kind of deserve a bad rap.
684
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,512
What do you want to say about why you've chosen to
685
00:30:06,536 --> 00:30:09,300
kind of retain that moniker? Uh,
686
00:30:10,120 --> 00:30:12,620
what good can you share about, uh,
687
00:30:12,620 --> 00:30:15,580
evangelicalism? Because, I mean, again,
688
00:30:16,060 --> 00:30:18,532
here we are in the Denver metro area. I see a lot
689
00:30:18,556 --> 00:30:20,980
of really good stuff happening
690
00:30:21,140 --> 00:30:23,972
from churches and people who I
691
00:30:23,996 --> 00:30:26,468
think would broadly identify well within
692
00:30:26,524 --> 00:30:29,044
evangelicalism as a whole. So I think there's a lot of good happening
693
00:30:29,172 --> 00:30:31,684
beyond just the headlines that we see on the national
694
00:30:31,772 --> 00:30:32,400
News.
695
00:30:35,340 --> 00:30:38,116
>> Speaker D: So I told you I have Catholic roots and
696
00:30:38,268 --> 00:30:41,204
evangelical roots. Of course, I was some fundamentalists. We didn't call ourselves
697
00:30:41,252 --> 00:30:42,884
evangelicals because we thought they were going to have roots. Right.
698
00:30:42,892 --> 00:30:43,540
>> Loren: They were liberals.
699
00:30:43,620 --> 00:30:46,474
>> Speaker D: Yeah. So, yeah, I know we have. The Southern Baptists were
700
00:30:46,642 --> 00:30:49,322
liberal. So, I mean, like I said, everybody has their own
701
00:30:49,346 --> 00:30:52,346
camp. So I usually tell people I have Catholic and evangelical
702
00:30:52,378 --> 00:30:55,338
roots because that's a very honest telling of who I am. It's
703
00:30:55,354 --> 00:30:56,990
an. It's an integration
704
00:30:57,410 --> 00:31:00,394
evangelicalism. Um, first of all, I don't want to be
705
00:31:00,402 --> 00:31:03,338
some sociologist, uneven Jews. I do
706
00:31:03,394 --> 00:31:06,362
remember kind of that awareness, like, okay, this is sort of a
707
00:31:06,386 --> 00:31:09,242
negative thing in the political stream, or
708
00:31:09,266 --> 00:31:11,760
positive, depending on what camp you were sitting in. Right.
709
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,580
Uh, and I also knew it was a powerful leverage tool
710
00:31:14,620 --> 00:31:17,380
in politics. Okay, so let me just share this.
711
00:31:17,500 --> 00:31:20,356
For many years, I didn't identify in it as anything. I was a Jesus
712
00:31:20,388 --> 00:31:23,300
follower. I was a Christian. It wasn't until I
713
00:31:23,340 --> 00:31:26,068
became very public in my stand
714
00:31:26,124 --> 00:31:29,060
with immigrants. I actually went to
715
00:31:29,100 --> 00:31:31,860
night school to study public policy for
716
00:31:31,900 --> 00:31:34,900
housing policy. I'd been a public school teacher and did
717
00:31:34,940 --> 00:31:37,844
education policy. I'd worked at Open Door and had a
718
00:31:37,852 --> 00:31:40,420
transitional. So social. Social, um, human
719
00:31:40,460 --> 00:31:43,216
service. So I'm an education, human
720
00:31:43,288 --> 00:31:46,272
service and housing policy person who lives in
721
00:31:46,296 --> 00:31:49,072
an immigrant community. All these things are happening now. My
722
00:31:49,096 --> 00:31:52,080
expertise, by far, I know immigration policy better than anything
723
00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:54,740
at every single level because of all the years of practice.
724
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,100
In 2009,
725
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,344
we had things, a lot of things in color. I don't want to go
726
00:32:01,352 --> 00:32:04,000
through all the different political things that were happening, but my
727
00:32:04,040 --> 00:32:06,928
awareness to the fact that the camp
728
00:32:06,984 --> 00:32:09,840
that I had hailed from, evangelicals, were now on the
729
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,708
opposite side of the poor. I, um, mean, I could keep listing.
730
00:32:12,784 --> 00:32:15,692
I'm like, well, this doesn't do well. So I had kind of
731
00:32:15,716 --> 00:32:18,572
just never used a moniker, knowing that that was
732
00:32:18,596 --> 00:32:21,052
my rootedness, that theologically I am
733
00:32:21,076 --> 00:32:23,916
evangelical, but social practices,
734
00:32:24,028 --> 00:32:27,004
social policy. I couldn't have been farther away. So how do
735
00:32:27,012 --> 00:32:30,012
you integrate your theology and your practice with some
736
00:32:30,036 --> 00:32:32,876
dumb moniker? And so I remember it was
737
00:32:32,948 --> 00:32:35,804
January 2010, and there was a group of
738
00:32:35,812 --> 00:32:38,764
us in Colorado that felt it
739
00:32:38,772 --> 00:32:41,564
was insufficient that evangelicals had not weighed in on immigration
740
00:32:41,612 --> 00:32:44,482
ever. This is before the evangelical immigration table. This is
741
00:32:44,506 --> 00:32:46,670
before people were really speaking up.
742
00:32:47,530 --> 00:32:50,482
Not that it has changed much in our own voting, but it is
743
00:32:50,506 --> 00:32:52,914
not unusual to find an evangelical who supports immigration
744
00:32:52,962 --> 00:32:55,634
reform. This is in the. I would say, the dark ages of
745
00:32:55,642 --> 00:32:58,642
immigration. When you did not see that. And
746
00:32:58,666 --> 00:33:01,394
I remember they put me as the first speaker, and this Other guy
747
00:33:01,442 --> 00:33:04,226
as the bat, the last speaker. And we had this whole slew,
748
00:33:04,258 --> 00:33:07,234
and, you know, NPR was there, the associate. It was a
749
00:33:07,242 --> 00:33:10,130
big deal. Um, we were going to come out that to be
750
00:33:10,170 --> 00:33:12,496
pro life, meant to be pro
751
00:33:12,568 --> 00:33:15,024
immigrant. And I was the opening
752
00:33:15,072 --> 00:33:17,920
speaker. And I thought, michelle, this is the time to
753
00:33:17,960 --> 00:33:20,420
be the most bold.
754
00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:24,400
And I. That was when I used it, uh, and said
755
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,688
who I was, and people were
756
00:33:26,744 --> 00:33:29,552
shocked. How can you be an evangelical you care
757
00:33:29,576 --> 00:33:32,384
about? I am. I'm my theology. And I honestly
758
00:33:32,432 --> 00:33:35,392
think that the evangelicals that we know
759
00:33:35,416 --> 00:33:38,106
of in the past, they are not following evangelical
760
00:33:38,138 --> 00:33:40,810
theology. They have become a voting block that is
761
00:33:40,850 --> 00:33:43,674
completely separated. I told you my hermeneutic was Jesus.
762
00:33:43,722 --> 00:33:44,426
>> Loren: Yeah.
763
00:33:44,618 --> 00:33:47,610
>> Speaker D: You know, if you read any of my books, I mean, you've read my book, you
764
00:33:47,650 --> 00:33:50,602
see that. Enjoying the resistance. It couldn't be more biblical.
765
00:33:50,666 --> 00:33:53,546
I've got. I focus on a prophet in every single
766
00:33:53,578 --> 00:33:56,522
chapter, and then I focus on multiple parables of
767
00:33:56,546 --> 00:33:59,354
what the kingdom of God looks like here,
768
00:33:59,522 --> 00:34:02,506
you know, through these stories. That is an even.
769
00:34:02,578 --> 00:34:05,402
I mean, evangelicals, one of the biggest things is the Bible as the
770
00:34:05,426 --> 00:34:08,172
authority. I don't think they're reading their
771
00:34:08,196 --> 00:34:10,840
Bible. So I would just say that
772
00:34:11,220 --> 00:34:14,172
we have a missed discipleship. And then I
773
00:34:14,196 --> 00:34:17,084
will just throw the entire Christian faith kind of. Not the
774
00:34:17,092 --> 00:34:19,960
Catholics. They're the North Star on social, you know, social, um,
775
00:34:20,900 --> 00:34:23,160
concerns and really
776
00:34:23,780 --> 00:34:26,732
addressing social concerns in the world. They're the North Star.
777
00:34:26,836 --> 00:34:29,404
Usually what I say is that
778
00:34:29,572 --> 00:34:32,348
I'm a public theologian. It means social
779
00:34:32,404 --> 00:34:35,308
concerns exist in the world and God has something
780
00:34:35,364 --> 00:34:38,208
to say about. If evangelicals are really
781
00:34:38,264 --> 00:34:40,416
living the way they say, then they need to know the Bible.
782
00:34:40,528 --> 00:34:40,864
>> Loren: Yeah.
783
00:34:40,912 --> 00:34:42,800
>> Speaker D: I was taught to memorize whole books of it.
784
00:34:42,840 --> 00:34:43,104
>> Loren: Yeah.
785
00:34:43,152 --> 00:34:45,904
>> Speaker D: I was growing up, and I had to diagram the King James
786
00:34:45,952 --> 00:34:48,512
Version in English, and that's how much I had to
787
00:34:48,536 --> 00:34:49,100
do.
788
00:34:49,480 --> 00:34:49,904
>> Loren: Yeah.
789
00:34:49,952 --> 00:34:51,056
>> Speaker D: You know the Bible.
790
00:34:51,168 --> 00:34:52,016
>> Loren: Yeah.
791
00:34:52,208 --> 00:34:55,024
>> Speaker D: Then you know that God has something to say
792
00:34:55,192 --> 00:34:57,760
about social concerns that
793
00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,464
exist in the world. And there are different
794
00:35:00,552 --> 00:35:02,220
approaches to it in government,
795
00:35:03,080 --> 00:35:06,016
however, the assault on the poor,
796
00:35:06,128 --> 00:35:08,480
whether it's the welfare Queen of the 80s.
797
00:35:08,480 --> 00:35:08,860
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
798
00:35:08,860 --> 00:35:11,200
>> Speaker D: To the assault on immigrants, that they are
799
00:35:11,240 --> 00:35:13,140
murderous and rapists.
800
00:35:13,720 --> 00:35:16,560
Nobody should be endorsing that. That is not anywhere to be
801
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:17,568
found in the Bible.
802
00:35:17,664 --> 00:35:18,300
>> Loren: Right.
803
00:35:18,600 --> 00:35:21,344
>> Speaker D: And I could continue, you know, uh, in my
804
00:35:21,432 --> 00:35:24,400
seminarian, you know, debate. I'm not an apologist, although I do
805
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,864
know my Bible. So I would say that
806
00:35:27,032 --> 00:35:29,712
public theology should be something. We
807
00:35:29,736 --> 00:35:32,018
all who follow the Bible should be public
808
00:35:32,074 --> 00:35:34,578
theologians. And so I'd say we lack our public
809
00:35:34,634 --> 00:35:37,218
theology. And we lack a public
810
00:35:37,274 --> 00:35:40,082
discipleship we don't even understand. And the
811
00:35:40,106 --> 00:35:43,074
idea that evangelical churches, for sure, in the past and
812
00:35:43,082 --> 00:35:45,522
even now, it's like caring for the poor is
813
00:35:45,626 --> 00:35:48,450
optional. I mean, let's not even get into
814
00:35:48,490 --> 00:35:51,330
how you vote. That should not be. So. I,
815
00:35:51,370 --> 00:35:54,322
I'm, I'm not sad to use the word evangelical. I
816
00:35:54,346 --> 00:35:56,210
understand that it's loaded. It's a good leverage.
817
00:35:56,290 --> 00:35:56,910
>> Loren: Right.
818
00:35:57,430 --> 00:35:59,950
>> Speaker D: But it also makes me sad that my
819
00:35:59,990 --> 00:36:02,974
people lack an understanding
820
00:36:03,022 --> 00:36:05,934
of the Bible and God's care and concern
821
00:36:06,022 --> 00:36:08,798
and centering of the poor.
822
00:36:08,974 --> 00:36:11,694
And you see it all throughout, from Genesis
823
00:36:11,822 --> 00:36:14,494
all the way through Revelations, uh, that God has a special
824
00:36:14,582 --> 00:36:17,422
care and a special concern for the poor,
825
00:36:17,566 --> 00:36:20,062
for the widow, for the orphan, for the
826
00:36:20,086 --> 00:36:22,830
immigrant. And if we don't have a special concern,
827
00:36:22,950 --> 00:36:25,838
then we are misaligned not only with Jesus and
828
00:36:25,894 --> 00:36:28,862
what he demonstrated for us, but, but the word
829
00:36:29,006 --> 00:36:29,550
that he.
830
00:36:29,590 --> 00:36:32,286
>> Loren: Spoke, I'm thinking
831
00:36:32,318 --> 00:36:35,310
about, obviously, like you
832
00:36:35,350 --> 00:36:37,934
mentioned, I, uh, want to acknowledge and I think it's very acknowledged, like Ryan
833
00:36:37,982 --> 00:36:40,830
Burge, if you're familiar with his research, he certainly pointed out
834
00:36:40,870 --> 00:36:43,662
how evangelicalism, or the
835
00:36:43,686 --> 00:36:46,494
label evangelical, certainly has become a voting
836
00:36:46,542 --> 00:36:49,374
moniker almost more than a theological
837
00:36:49,422 --> 00:36:52,302
moniker. But I'm also intrigued kind of by what you
838
00:36:52,326 --> 00:36:54,928
said about discipleship, or at least that's how I understood it.
839
00:36:54,974 --> 00:36:57,788
But you've obviously been in ministry
840
00:36:57,884 --> 00:37:00,280
leadership. Your family has.
841
00:37:00,820 --> 00:37:03,680
And I wonder. I'm just thinking,
842
00:37:04,100 --> 00:37:06,908
I think I've heard this. Certainly there's a story.
843
00:37:06,964 --> 00:37:09,724
What, recently or relatively recently? A couple
844
00:37:09,772 --> 00:37:12,508
years. Right. Russell Moore. I'm thinking about
845
00:37:12,564 --> 00:37:15,532
how, uh, he shared about
846
00:37:15,556 --> 00:37:18,170
how pastors were getting pushback, about sharing,
847
00:37:18,170 --> 00:37:20,412
um, the
848
00:37:20,436 --> 00:37:21,600
Beatitudes.
849
00:37:23,710 --> 00:37:25,960
Uh, I mean, it certainly seems like, and
850
00:37:26,820 --> 00:37:29,660
I don't know if this is too broad brush, but it feels accurate. People
851
00:37:29,700 --> 00:37:32,620
are being certainly discipled far more
852
00:37:32,740 --> 00:37:34,920
from the cable news
853
00:37:35,460 --> 00:37:38,060
or the influencers than they are
854
00:37:38,100 --> 00:37:41,068
by scripture and their
855
00:37:41,124 --> 00:37:44,060
pastor. And I think in some
856
00:37:44,100 --> 00:37:46,972
ways, um, if I can go after
857
00:37:46,996 --> 00:37:49,872
my own camp a little bit, pick my own side, I think
858
00:37:49,896 --> 00:37:52,464
there is a challenge because one's
859
00:37:52,512 --> 00:37:55,376
politics almost are elevated over
860
00:37:55,448 --> 00:37:56,980
one's theology.
861
00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:00,740
How do we begin to turn that tide?
862
00:38:02,840 --> 00:38:05,020
>> Speaker D: So many things are coming in my head
863
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:08,432
right now. It's Martin Luther King talking about the
864
00:38:08,456 --> 00:38:10,672
prophetic zeal that needs to be in our
865
00:38:10,696 --> 00:38:13,674
churches. Um, okay, I'm going to
866
00:38:13,682 --> 00:38:16,330
tell you a story. So I was
867
00:38:16,370 --> 00:38:19,274
working to try to talk to senior
868
00:38:19,322 --> 00:38:21,962
pastors all around the metro area, and it ended up
869
00:38:21,986 --> 00:38:24,266
expanding nationally. And because
870
00:38:24,418 --> 00:38:26,666
I had started Open Door
871
00:38:26,698 --> 00:38:29,162
Ministries, a lot of pastors from
872
00:38:29,186 --> 00:38:30,362
megachurches knew me.
873
00:38:30,466 --> 00:38:30,620
>> Loren: Right.
874
00:38:30,620 --> 00:38:33,530
>> Speaker D: Uh, and So I had audience with them, and so I set
875
00:38:33,570 --> 00:38:36,474
a meeting. And, and almost everybody dreaded it because they knew what I was
876
00:38:36,482 --> 00:38:39,178
going to talk about. And I'm not a, I'm not a mean
877
00:38:39,234 --> 00:38:42,084
person. I actually have a really. When I'm not sick, I have a
878
00:38:42,092 --> 00:38:45,044
really gentle voice. And, you know, and I'm. I'm
879
00:38:45,092 --> 00:38:47,460
prophetic and unapologetic, but. But certainly not
880
00:38:47,500 --> 00:38:50,500
harsh. And so I, I made a meeting.
881
00:38:50,540 --> 00:38:53,204
It was one of the largest, um, churches in Douglas
882
00:38:53,252 --> 00:38:56,132
county, very wealthy, third wealthiest county in the
883
00:38:56,156 --> 00:38:59,140
country. And, you know, he. We had some
884
00:38:59,180 --> 00:39:02,116
nice things. We were saying some niceties and kind of were getting
885
00:39:02,188 --> 00:39:04,040
down to the conversation.
886
00:39:05,740 --> 00:39:08,004
And I was sitting across on his couch, and he said, you know,
887
00:39:08,012 --> 00:39:10,888
Michelle, nobody's talking about
888
00:39:10,944 --> 00:39:12,260
immigration here.
889
00:39:12,550 --> 00:39:13,130
>> Loren: Ah.
890
00:39:13,130 --> 00:39:16,072
>> Speaker D: And I said nothing. And just in case I
891
00:39:16,096 --> 00:39:18,728
hadn't caught it, he said it again with a little bit more
892
00:39:18,784 --> 00:39:21,576
passion. Nobody's talking about
893
00:39:21,648 --> 00:39:24,360
immigration here. And I
894
00:39:24,400 --> 00:39:27,380
waited and I said, no,
895
00:39:27,760 --> 00:39:30,632
you aren't talking about immigration here. And so
896
00:39:30,656 --> 00:39:33,512
you have allowed. And I numbered the amount of thousands of people in his
897
00:39:33,536 --> 00:39:36,120
congregation, this many thousands of
898
00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,160
people to allow their views of
899
00:39:39,200 --> 00:39:41,812
immigrants to be determined. Determined by cable
900
00:39:41,876 --> 00:39:42,244
news.
901
00:39:42,332 --> 00:39:42,868
>> Loren: Yeah.
902
00:39:42,964 --> 00:39:45,652
>> Speaker D: And then the conversation really got spicy and we got into it,
903
00:39:45,756 --> 00:39:48,484
you know, but that is the problem is
904
00:39:48,572 --> 00:39:51,252
pastors know, because the Hebrew word
905
00:39:51,316 --> 00:39:54,100
for immigrant or the Hebrew word ger is
906
00:39:54,140 --> 00:39:56,836
used 92 times in the Old Testament.
907
00:39:56,948 --> 00:39:59,940
All you do is hear the story of every
908
00:40:00,060 --> 00:40:02,788
founding patriarch of the Old
909
00:40:02,844 --> 00:40:05,748
Testament being on the move. Being an immigrant,
910
00:40:05,844 --> 00:40:08,772
you get into the New Testament. Even Jesus isn't alive for two years
911
00:40:08,796 --> 00:40:11,160
and already he's fleeing border.
912
00:40:11,390 --> 00:40:11,810
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
913
00:40:11,810 --> 00:40:14,762
>> Speaker D: We're told to live as soldiers
914
00:40:14,826 --> 00:40:17,738
in a land and be citizens in heaven. And
915
00:40:17,794 --> 00:40:20,426
so pastors know the theology is there.
916
00:40:20,578 --> 00:40:23,578
I've had thousands, hundreds, at least
917
00:40:23,714 --> 00:40:26,074
one on one meetings with pastors around
918
00:40:26,162 --> 00:40:28,970
immigration and their, Their,
919
00:40:29,090 --> 00:40:31,722
their nervousness, their fear to preach
920
00:40:31,786 --> 00:40:32,906
about it.
921
00:40:33,058 --> 00:40:33,482
>> Loren: Yeah.
922
00:40:33,546 --> 00:40:35,354
>> Speaker D: Because public discipleship.
923
00:40:35,402 --> 00:40:35,450
>> Loren: Right.
924
00:40:35,450 --> 00:40:38,250
>> Speaker D: Uh, in the. What I'm talking about is we're talking about public being not
925
00:40:38,290 --> 00:40:40,714
private. You know, public means we care about everybody.
926
00:40:40,762 --> 00:40:41,018
>> Loren: Right.
927
00:40:41,074 --> 00:40:44,006
>> Speaker D: So social concerns. We care about every. My discipleship
928
00:40:44,038 --> 00:40:47,014
is. I got to make you care about everybody, including the immigrants
929
00:40:47,062 --> 00:40:49,958
you're afraid of, including the gang bangers you're worried
930
00:40:49,974 --> 00:40:52,890
about in the city, including, you know, everybody.
931
00:40:53,390 --> 00:40:55,942
You shy away from it because in.
932
00:40:55,966 --> 00:40:58,374
>> Loren: The evangelical work, it's church growth at all costs.
933
00:40:58,422 --> 00:41:01,270
>> Speaker D: Well, it's not just that, but evangelicals don't have
934
00:41:01,310 --> 00:41:02,170
bishops.
935
00:41:02,670 --> 00:41:04,822
>> Loren: Yes. There's no one holding them accountable.
936
00:41:04,966 --> 00:41:07,766
>> Speaker D: The polity of an evangelical church is the elder Born,
937
00:41:07,878 --> 00:41:10,582
which is made up of the body in that community.
938
00:41:10,686 --> 00:41:13,450
And usually wealthy.
939
00:41:13,510 --> 00:41:13,950
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
940
00:41:13,950 --> 00:41:14,374
>> Speaker D: Men.
941
00:41:14,462 --> 00:41:15,254
>> Loren: Yeah, Jose.
942
00:41:15,302 --> 00:41:18,070
>> Speaker D: Wealthy landed men, land owning men. You pick your most
943
00:41:18,110 --> 00:41:20,630
powerful men to put on your altar board, and they
944
00:41:20,670 --> 00:41:23,222
determine if that pastor is in or
945
00:41:23,246 --> 00:41:26,086
out. You say a couple sermons, you're out, you're
946
00:41:26,118 --> 00:41:28,998
out. And that's kind of the political spectrum, too. And I've
947
00:41:29,014 --> 00:41:32,006
worked with congressional leaders, obviously, at both the Senate
948
00:41:32,038 --> 00:41:34,982
and the House level. You know, I've had access to working with
949
00:41:35,006 --> 00:41:37,750
people who've worked in both, you know, in some. Some of the White
950
00:41:37,790 --> 00:41:40,664
House positions. And, you know, and then I've got State around the
951
00:41:40,672 --> 00:41:42,744
country and stuff. When you have those private
952
00:41:42,832 --> 00:41:45,620
conversations, it is very hard
953
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:49,256
to find a legislator at any
954
00:41:49,328 --> 00:41:51,832
level behind closed
955
00:41:51,896 --> 00:41:54,140
doors, not to admit
956
00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,640
that there needs to be a
957
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:00,160
restoration for undocumented immigrants.
958
00:42:00,160 --> 00:42:00,600
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
959
00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:03,496
>> Speaker D: That knows the narrative that's being sold
960
00:42:03,608 --> 00:42:04,720
is a lie.
961
00:42:04,720 --> 00:42:05,320
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
962
00:42:05,320 --> 00:42:08,180
>> Speaker D: But what happens is, when you stand in front of that pulpit or you
963
00:42:08,220 --> 00:42:10,852
get out publicly, if you have a
964
00:42:10,876 --> 00:42:13,732
congregation that pushes back in an older board, then
965
00:42:13,756 --> 00:42:16,564
you're like, well, then I'm just going to be out and they're going to keep finding
966
00:42:16,612 --> 00:42:17,204
that person.
967
00:42:17,292 --> 00:42:17,652
>> Loren: Yeah.
968
00:42:17,716 --> 00:42:20,276
>> Speaker D: I'm not defending any of it. I'm just saying that's the chronic
969
00:42:20,308 --> 00:42:23,300
system. And right now, here we are. All these appointments and
970
00:42:23,340 --> 00:42:26,276
all these. If you fight me, I'm
971
00:42:26,308 --> 00:42:29,156
going to primary you. It's kind of the same
972
00:42:29,228 --> 00:42:32,100
idea. So this is a time. There's always
973
00:42:32,140 --> 00:42:35,060
a time. But this is an easy time to see
974
00:42:35,180 --> 00:42:38,180
that the rise of the prophets need to come. Which is why I thought about
975
00:42:38,220 --> 00:42:39,380
MLK and the prophetic.
976
00:42:39,380 --> 00:42:40,440
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
977
00:42:40,440 --> 00:42:43,360
>> Speaker D: Is that we should be both in our pulpits. We
978
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:46,304
need. We need. Well, Jesus came as prophet, priest
979
00:42:46,352 --> 00:42:49,184
and king. We need leadership in all of that way.
980
00:42:49,352 --> 00:42:51,472
But when we lose the prophet in the
981
00:42:51,496 --> 00:42:53,808
pulpit, we sell our
982
00:42:53,864 --> 00:42:56,112
congregation, our flock, to the
983
00:42:56,136 --> 00:42:56,900
culture.
984
00:42:57,400 --> 00:42:57,776
>> Loren: Yeah.
985
00:42:57,808 --> 00:43:00,540
Let's stay on this, because I think this is an important point.
986
00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:03,792
It seems like primarily I see this from an
987
00:43:03,816 --> 00:43:06,758
outsider perspective, so tell me if you think I'm wrong. But it seems
988
00:43:06,774 --> 00:43:09,590
like in evangelical churches, there tends to be a lot of,
989
00:43:09,630 --> 00:43:12,374
like, we see you struggling with your marriage, we see you struggling
990
00:43:12,422 --> 00:43:14,950
paying the bills. Kind of like a lot of empathy around
991
00:43:15,070 --> 00:43:18,054
helping you have a good marriage, helping you with your relationships, helping you
992
00:43:18,062 --> 00:43:20,902
with your kids, like, really kind of banging in on those
993
00:43:21,006 --> 00:43:24,006
or cycling through those things, which I think
994
00:43:24,078 --> 00:43:26,982
mainliners tend to struggle with. Like, mainliners crush the
995
00:43:27,006 --> 00:43:29,894
prophetic, I think, but don't always help folks with
996
00:43:29,902 --> 00:43:32,586
the empathy around Their kind of lived
997
00:43:32,618 --> 00:43:35,242
experience struggles. Whereas, uh, from, again, an
998
00:43:35,266 --> 00:43:38,154
outsider perspective, it seems like evangelicals really do a
999
00:43:38,162 --> 00:43:41,082
good job saying, hey, I hear you when you're struggling with this and that
1000
00:43:41,106 --> 00:43:44,058
and the other. But then don't move them
1001
00:43:44,114 --> 00:43:47,018
to that. Like, hey, I hear you when you say you're struggling with your marriage and,
1002
00:43:47,074 --> 00:43:49,562
and paying your bills and all that. But let's move you to
1003
00:43:49,586 --> 00:43:52,442
that. I mean, uh, you've kind of already said it. Is
1004
00:43:52,466 --> 00:43:54,570
it, Is it just like
1005
00:43:54,690 --> 00:43:57,210
survival? You know, why pastors, I don't think.
1006
00:43:57,250 --> 00:43:59,888
>> Speaker D: Oh, the pastors of this. I don't think, first of all,
1007
00:43:59,934 --> 00:44:02,380
evangelicalism is majority white and it is
1008
00:44:02,420 --> 00:44:04,396
majority middle class income or higher.
1009
00:44:04,468 --> 00:44:04,812
>> Loren: Yeah.
1010
00:44:04,876 --> 00:44:07,820
>> Speaker D: Okay, so let's just start with that. You know, I told
1011
00:44:07,860 --> 00:44:10,764
you that proximity had transformed
1012
00:44:10,812 --> 00:44:11,164
me.
1013
00:44:11,252 --> 00:44:11,920
>> Loren: Yeah.
1014
00:44:12,340 --> 00:44:15,260
>> Speaker D: I remember when Nick Wolster. Stoff,
1015
00:44:15,340 --> 00:44:15,996
you know him?
1016
00:44:16,068 --> 00:44:16,492
>> Loren: I don't.
1017
00:44:16,556 --> 00:44:19,340
>> Speaker D: Okay, well, maybe I shouldn't go down that, that vein. But
1018
00:44:19,380 --> 00:44:22,200
he is a very well known,
1019
00:44:22,460 --> 00:44:25,110
um, theologian on the work of
1020
00:44:25,150 --> 00:44:25,622
justice.
1021
00:44:25,686 --> 00:44:26,246
>> Loren: Okay.
1022
00:44:26,358 --> 00:44:28,742
>> Speaker D: He's the one who coined the quartet of the
1023
00:44:28,766 --> 00:44:31,462
vulnerable, the poor, the widow, the orphan, the
1024
00:44:31,486 --> 00:44:34,086
immigrant. I was speaking Grand Rapids and
1025
00:44:34,158 --> 00:44:37,078
he was in the audience. Glad I didn't know that. That would have scared
1026
00:44:37,094 --> 00:44:39,238
me and made me nervous. I mean, he's kind of a big deal
1027
00:44:39,374 --> 00:44:42,374
globally. And he asked me, he's like, how did you know to go
1028
00:44:42,382 --> 00:44:45,366
from charity to justice? I didn't know who was asking
1029
00:44:45,398 --> 00:44:48,390
me that question, but I had to stop and
1030
00:44:48,430 --> 00:44:50,570
I said, because I saw injustice.
1031
00:44:51,300 --> 00:44:54,252
So if you don't see pain, poverty and justice, what
1032
00:44:54,276 --> 00:44:57,212
Nick said was, that's what happened to me too. So it was,
1033
00:44:57,236 --> 00:44:59,852
to him, it was like, how can I look at this white, educated, privileged
1034
00:44:59,916 --> 00:45:02,684
woman who completely understands moving
1035
00:45:02,732 --> 00:45:05,612
from charity to justice. That
1036
00:45:05,636 --> 00:45:08,236
can't be possible. When I think about the
1037
00:45:08,308 --> 00:45:11,148
socioeconomic background and framing.
1038
00:45:11,244 --> 00:45:14,140
How did you do that? And you
1039
00:45:14,180 --> 00:45:17,158
have to see injustice in order
1040
00:45:17,214 --> 00:45:20,102
to get to justice. That's why the black church is so good. I would
1041
00:45:20,126 --> 00:45:23,062
say, yeah, the main line's fine. The black church is
1042
00:45:23,086 --> 00:45:25,830
good. I mean, I probably argue with you on the mainline church, but I would
1043
00:45:25,870 --> 00:45:28,582
say that, that the prophetic and standing up for
1044
00:45:28,606 --> 00:45:31,380
justice and teaching us a way forward is the black church, uh,
1045
00:45:31,480 --> 00:45:34,198
uh, from the earliest of times,
1046
00:45:34,334 --> 00:45:36,262
not just through the 1960s.
1047
00:45:36,326 --> 00:45:36,566
>> Loren: Yeah.
1048
00:45:36,598 --> 00:45:39,574
>> Speaker D: I mean, the Jim Crow period, they were getting schools and yeah, they were
1049
00:45:39,582 --> 00:45:42,582
getting substantive schools. They'd get schools. They had substance, but
1050
00:45:42,606 --> 00:45:45,592
they got. They were getting them in for life and land, you know,
1051
00:45:45,616 --> 00:45:48,568
so you see, and they were doing it through the social network
1052
00:45:48,624 --> 00:45:51,528
of the church. And when the,
1053
00:45:51,664 --> 00:45:54,568
you know, when the leaders of Alabama said, we're
1054
00:45:54,584 --> 00:45:57,080
not going to have an ACLU in our
1055
00:45:57,120 --> 00:46:00,120
state, you know, all of a sudden the pastors of the Black
1056
00:46:00,160 --> 00:46:02,824
Church of Alabama said, well, we'll form
1057
00:46:02,912 --> 00:46:05,560
our own Alabama
1058
00:46:05,720 --> 00:46:08,568
to their. To their death, practically. Like their lives
1059
00:46:08,704 --> 00:46:11,498
were constantly in, you know,
1060
00:46:11,554 --> 00:46:14,314
question as far as their safety because of that prophetic nature
1061
00:46:14,362 --> 00:46:17,146
of we are going to fight for justice. They knew
1062
00:46:17,178 --> 00:46:19,834
it because they were intimate with injustice, because they were living
1063
00:46:19,882 --> 00:46:22,790
it. I would say that
1064
00:46:23,170 --> 00:46:26,138
moving from charity to justice is not
1065
00:46:26,194 --> 00:46:28,874
self serving for white privileged
1066
00:46:28,922 --> 00:46:31,914
America. And so you don't
1067
00:46:31,962 --> 00:46:34,490
see or feel the urgency of injustice.
1068
00:46:34,570 --> 00:46:35,338
>> Loren: Yep.
1069
00:46:35,514 --> 00:46:37,910
>> Speaker D: So you're going to focus and then also,
1070
00:46:39,180 --> 00:46:41,620
we are not a resilient
1071
00:46:41,780 --> 00:46:42,388
people.
1072
00:46:42,524 --> 00:46:44,212
>> Loren: Yeah, that's a good point.
1073
00:46:44,396 --> 00:46:46,964
>> Speaker D: And justice is a long work.
1074
00:46:47,052 --> 00:46:47,508
>> Loren: Yeah.
1075
00:46:47,604 --> 00:46:50,532
>> Speaker D: Whether you're white or not, if you're gonna do. I mean, you don't. Just because I
1076
00:46:50,556 --> 00:46:53,524
have my white skin. I mean, there's plenty of white senior pastors. I have
1077
00:46:53,532 --> 00:46:56,516
this friend, Alan Cross, white senior Southern
1078
00:46:56,548 --> 00:46:59,460
Baptist pastor. The people that we
1079
00:46:59,500 --> 00:47:02,164
would meet with, don't look at him and say, oh, well, because you're a white Southern
1080
00:47:02,212 --> 00:47:04,972
Baptist pastor, we're going to give you immigration reform.
1081
00:47:05,076 --> 00:47:08,000
They're like, no, we're going to kick you out of the church, which is what happened.
1082
00:47:08,090 --> 00:47:08,670
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
1083
00:47:08,740 --> 00:47:11,680
>> Speaker D: So I'm just saying that there's.
1084
00:47:12,180 --> 00:47:15,004
Justice is a very long work and we don't
1085
00:47:15,052 --> 00:47:17,852
have resilience by nature in our
1086
00:47:17,876 --> 00:47:20,780
congregations. We have a very myopic view.
1087
00:47:20,900 --> 00:47:23,724
So we're going to focus on our own family. And then there's folks in the
1088
00:47:23,732 --> 00:47:26,668
family that's re emphasized. That is, though, that is the God.
1089
00:47:26,764 --> 00:47:28,204
>> Loren: Yeah. Yep.
1090
00:47:28,332 --> 00:47:31,020
>> Speaker D: And then we're going to focus on our own emotional health, which is
1091
00:47:31,060 --> 00:47:33,754
important in our own spiritual development. But here's
1092
00:47:33,812 --> 00:47:36,446
is the ineptness of us. We
1093
00:47:36,518 --> 00:47:39,470
were made to be salt light in
1094
00:47:39,510 --> 00:47:41,886
darkness. And when you have light that just
1095
00:47:41,958 --> 00:47:44,878
cloisters into light, you can't even see if your light
1096
00:47:44,934 --> 00:47:47,790
is very strong. It's not until you put it into
1097
00:47:47,830 --> 00:47:50,702
the darkness that you can see that you're being effective. I
1098
00:47:50,726 --> 00:47:52,830
wish people would just preach that metaphor.
1099
00:47:52,910 --> 00:47:53,262
>> Loren: Yeah.
1100
00:47:53,326 --> 00:47:55,614
>> Speaker D: Run to the darkness with the light. Only
1101
00:47:55,702 --> 00:47:58,558
idiots would hide it. I'm sorry, there's a.
1102
00:47:58,614 --> 00:48:01,598
There's something in the Beatitudes about that. You know, we
1103
00:48:01,654 --> 00:48:04,542
as evangelicals and I would even say
1104
00:48:04,566 --> 00:48:07,470
white privileged America. And I have seen it even with
1105
00:48:07,510 --> 00:48:10,174
mainline churches in some communities for sure.
1106
00:48:10,262 --> 00:48:10,670
>> Loren: Yeah.
1107
00:48:10,750 --> 00:48:13,662
>> Speaker D: And then I've seen it even in Catholics, even though
1108
00:48:13,766 --> 00:48:16,170
their social teaching is the North Star.
1109
00:48:16,710 --> 00:48:19,678
But Evangelicals especially, we have
1110
00:48:19,734 --> 00:48:22,690
been hiding out in our basements
1111
00:48:23,110 --> 00:48:26,062
with our canned goods, uh, batteries,
1112
00:48:26,206 --> 00:48:29,118
and our flashlights, and we're waiting for the darkness to pass
1113
00:48:29,174 --> 00:48:30,460
until Jesus comes.
1114
00:48:30,460 --> 00:48:30,760
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
1115
00:48:30,760 --> 00:48:33,752
>> Speaker D: Instead of using everything we can with the light that he
1116
00:48:33,776 --> 00:48:36,712
says, I'm the light of the world, you are the light
1117
00:48:36,736 --> 00:48:38,312
of the world. Go shine.
1118
00:48:38,456 --> 00:48:38,968
>> Loren: Yeah.
1119
00:48:39,064 --> 00:48:42,056
>> Speaker D: And I think we cloister and we're taught to be afraid
1120
00:48:42,168 --> 00:48:43,180
through culture.
1121
00:48:43,180 --> 00:48:43,480
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
1122
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:46,360
>> Speaker D: And then the church does not explain how powerful light
1123
00:48:46,400 --> 00:48:49,176
is in darkness. And then we created all these schools
1124
00:48:49,288 --> 00:48:52,072
that we can make our children grow up in bubbles. And
1125
00:48:52,096 --> 00:48:54,952
we're afraid of the darkness. And that is moronic because
1126
00:48:54,976 --> 00:48:57,592
the only thing that should be the darkness should be
1127
00:48:57,616 --> 00:49:00,472
afraid because the light is penetrating it. And I'll end with
1128
00:49:00,496 --> 00:49:03,454
this. God. Evangelicals believe in
1129
00:49:03,462 --> 00:49:06,366
the creation narrative. I mean, there's an intelligent design. There's some debate
1130
00:49:06,398 --> 00:49:09,262
on how long, but they all believe it to be a
1131
00:49:09,286 --> 00:49:12,142
real story. And the beautiful
1132
00:49:12,206 --> 00:49:15,022
thing about the narrative that echoes of the
1133
00:49:15,046 --> 00:49:17,870
light pushing out darkness is, guess what was created on
1134
00:49:17,910 --> 00:49:20,542
day one? God has been pushing out
1135
00:49:20,646 --> 00:49:23,470
darkness with light since day one. He is
1136
00:49:23,510 --> 00:49:26,254
commanded, commissioned, and equipped us to do
1137
00:49:26,262 --> 00:49:28,770
it. Horse not doing the work.
1138
00:49:30,190 --> 00:49:30,970
>> Loren: Yeah.
1139
00:49:31,790 --> 00:49:34,690
Let me ask one more question then, before we take a break.
1140
00:49:35,070 --> 00:49:38,022
I'm thinking again about the word proximity has
1141
00:49:38,046 --> 00:49:41,014
come up multiple times through this interview. Certainly you
1142
00:49:41,022 --> 00:49:43,870
have a book on that topic. I'm thinking also about. Are, uh,
1143
00:49:43,966 --> 00:49:45,958
you familiar with Brenda Salter McNeil's book?
1144
00:49:46,014 --> 00:49:47,046
>> Speaker D: She's a very good friend of mine.
1145
00:49:47,078 --> 00:49:47,334
>> Loren: Okay.
1146
00:49:47,382 --> 00:49:49,010
>> Speaker D: And yes, I know her well,
1147
00:49:50,430 --> 00:49:51,070
uh.
1148
00:49:51,070 --> 00:49:53,842
>> Loren: Because I read hers, I don't know, over the summer or
1149
00:49:53,866 --> 00:49:54,098
something.
1150
00:49:54,154 --> 00:49:54,990
>> Speaker D: Which one?
1151
00:49:56,490 --> 00:49:59,474
>> Loren: I, uh, can't remember. It's her recent book. Uh, but
1152
00:49:59,642 --> 00:50:02,530
from the book, it said something. She
1153
00:50:02,570 --> 00:50:05,570
said something that proximity breeds care, which is certainly something
1154
00:50:05,610 --> 00:50:08,510
you've alluded to. Again and again, I'm thinking again,
1155
00:50:09,430 --> 00:50:12,178
um, of this broader dynamics within
1156
00:50:12,234 --> 00:50:15,058
evangelicalism of
1157
00:50:15,194 --> 00:50:17,830
the kind of, like, the megachurch campus
1158
00:50:18,340 --> 00:50:20,600
when we think, like. I'm thinking about
1159
00:50:20,980 --> 00:50:23,756
throughout the metro, as we're sitting here in person,
1160
00:50:23,828 --> 00:50:26,556
I'm thinking of out east and out
1161
00:50:26,628 --> 00:50:29,452
north, and certainly you alluded to south of
1162
00:50:29,476 --> 00:50:32,476
these huge behemoth churches that really have become
1163
00:50:32,548 --> 00:50:35,546
like. I love your imagery of just like, we're going
1164
00:50:35,548 --> 00:50:38,444
to have a beacon of light here. We're not going to take our light out into the
1165
00:50:38,452 --> 00:50:41,356
darkness. Certainly, if I'm understanding correctly,
1166
00:50:41,388 --> 00:50:44,092
that really goes against the mission
1167
00:50:44,156 --> 00:50:46,588
and ethos of open door here.
1168
00:50:46,644 --> 00:50:47,276
>> Speaker D: Oh, yeah.
1169
00:50:47,388 --> 00:50:49,900
>> Loren: Of taking light into the darkness.
1170
00:50:50,060 --> 00:50:52,990
And it's so funny, um,
1171
00:50:52,990 --> 00:50:55,484
because, yeah, there's been like this protectionism
1172
00:50:55,532 --> 00:50:58,280
against how then
1173
00:50:58,900 --> 00:51:01,484
what are some simple
1174
00:51:01,532 --> 00:51:04,028
steps, some beginning practices
1175
00:51:04,204 --> 00:51:06,860
churches can do, pastors can
1176
00:51:06,900 --> 00:51:09,772
do, because maybe in
1177
00:51:09,796 --> 00:51:12,428
some context, like getting up and giving whole justice sermons
1178
00:51:12,604 --> 00:51:15,178
is going to get them right out the door. And they, they. They want to pay their
1179
00:51:15,234 --> 00:51:18,170
mortgage and keep their family fed, but also they want to move
1180
00:51:18,210 --> 00:51:18,954
the needle.
1181
00:51:19,082 --> 00:51:21,706
>> Speaker D: Yeah. Well, that's the reason I wrote
1182
00:51:21,738 --> 00:51:24,458
Proximity. The way I wrote it was because we
1183
00:51:24,514 --> 00:51:26,794
need to be willing to humble
1184
00:51:26,842 --> 00:51:29,690
ourselves and leave our places of
1185
00:51:29,730 --> 00:51:30,510
comfort.
1186
00:51:32,850 --> 00:51:35,706
We need to be willing to humble ourselves and
1187
00:51:35,778 --> 00:51:38,430
leave our places of comfort
1188
00:51:39,170 --> 00:51:41,978
to love people
1189
00:51:42,114 --> 00:51:44,874
who are different. That
1190
00:51:44,962 --> 00:51:47,322
is literally what
1191
00:51:47,426 --> 00:51:50,378
Jesus did. Jesus
1192
00:51:50,474 --> 00:51:53,226
left and emptied himself
1193
00:51:53,418 --> 00:51:55,670
of power and position
1194
00:51:56,210 --> 00:51:58,698
and rights to leave his
1195
00:51:58,754 --> 00:52:01,674
godliness. Uh, I mean, he kept it with him, but, you
1196
00:52:01,682 --> 00:52:03,990
know, the perfection, you know, the.
1197
00:52:05,250 --> 00:52:08,122
The essence of his power to be born as a
1198
00:52:08,146 --> 00:52:11,062
baby and be a human being for a
1199
00:52:11,086 --> 00:52:13,526
stretch also. Ah. He could
1200
00:52:13,598 --> 00:52:16,454
demonstrate. That's what I said. This is how we know one love is. Jesus Christ
1201
00:52:16,542 --> 00:52:19,542
laid down his life. Yes, he died. That was a part of it. That was
1202
00:52:19,566 --> 00:52:21,990
a huge part of it. But he laid it down from day
1203
00:52:22,030 --> 00:52:22,610
one.
1204
00:52:22,750 --> 00:52:23,410
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
1205
00:52:23,410 --> 00:52:26,198
>> Speaker D: And so I would say that the reason
1206
00:52:26,254 --> 00:52:28,502
proximity is powerful is it makes you search
1207
00:52:28,566 --> 00:52:30,950
scripture to try to understand the
1208
00:52:30,990 --> 00:52:33,654
complexities of the brokenness and the pain of the world.
1209
00:52:33,822 --> 00:52:36,720
And so what I would say is that what
1210
00:52:36,760 --> 00:52:39,568
I would want. The next steps would be to the pastor, not
1211
00:52:39,624 --> 00:52:42,480
the discipleship pastor or
1212
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,056
the missions pastor. I want the senior pastor.
1213
00:52:45,088 --> 00:52:45,664
>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
1214
00:52:45,712 --> 00:52:48,432
>> Speaker D: I want him as an elder board, not to give the
1215
00:52:48,456 --> 00:52:49,020
money.
1216
00:52:49,240 --> 00:52:50,260
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
1217
00:52:50,260 --> 00:52:51,920
>> Speaker D: But to. And not just one time.
1218
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:52,512
>> Loren: Right.
1219
00:52:52,616 --> 00:52:53,808
>> Speaker D: But as a practice.
1220
00:52:53,904 --> 00:52:54,272
>> Loren: Yeah.
1221
00:52:54,336 --> 00:52:57,264
>> Speaker D: Be journeying as a practice to pair up. And this is
1222
00:52:57,272 --> 00:53:00,016
an organizing methodology I have with immigrant, non immigrant
1223
00:53:00,048 --> 00:53:02,912
pastors. That's why I get a lot of people who are supporting immigration
1224
00:53:02,976 --> 00:53:05,632
because they've walked with immigrant pastors and their
1225
00:53:05,656 --> 00:53:06,072
brothers.
1226
00:53:06,176 --> 00:53:06,536
>> Loren: Yeah.
1227
00:53:06,568 --> 00:53:09,176
>> Speaker D: And their sisters, their family. But for
1228
00:53:09,248 --> 00:53:12,120
a pastor from a well to do
1229
00:53:12,160 --> 00:53:15,112
congregation to literally not do anything
1230
00:53:15,176 --> 00:53:17,992
to the inner city pastor or for them, but do it
1231
00:53:18,016 --> 00:53:20,632
with them, um, so that we can mutually
1232
00:53:20,696 --> 00:53:23,688
encourage one another. If that would be
1233
00:53:23,744 --> 00:53:26,488
so radical. Because yes, preaching would change, but people
1234
00:53:26,544 --> 00:53:29,256
would follow. And here's the thing is we are watching a mass
1235
00:53:29,328 --> 00:53:32,104
exodus of a younger generation leaving the church
1236
00:53:32,152 --> 00:53:35,152
because they. The Christian Witness, specifically the
1237
00:53:35,176 --> 00:53:37,472
evangelical church. But the Christian Witness is a
1238
00:53:37,496 --> 00:53:40,080
scandal. It doesn't measure up. The
1239
00:53:40,120 --> 00:53:42,880
actions are embarrassing. If you would
1240
00:53:42,920 --> 00:53:45,760
see pastors and elders pouring themselves
1241
00:53:45,840 --> 00:53:48,400
out on behalf of the poor, not for a sermon illustration.
1242
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:49,360
>> Loren: Right, right.
1243
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:51,500
>> Speaker D: But as a practice and a way of Life.
1244
00:53:52,360 --> 00:53:55,104
Yeah, that's what I would want to
1245
00:53:55,112 --> 00:53:55,376
see.
1246
00:53:55,448 --> 00:53:55,696
>> Loren: Yeah.
1247
00:53:55,728 --> 00:53:57,760
>> Speaker D: Because I know it would be transformative. It is
1248
00:53:57,800 --> 00:54:00,698
humiliating, humble and humiliating
1249
00:54:00,874 --> 00:54:03,802
to pour yourself out in a
1250
00:54:03,826 --> 00:54:06,698
community that has a perpetual
1251
00:54:06,874 --> 00:54:09,802
poverty problem, who has been written out of a system,
1252
00:54:09,906 --> 00:54:12,538
who doesn't have the resource, that doesn't have the economic,
1253
00:54:12,674 --> 00:54:15,610
the social or the political capital to be able
1254
00:54:15,650 --> 00:54:18,442
to survive, and then gets blamed for
1255
00:54:18,466 --> 00:54:21,354
it now, uh, from the inside.
1256
00:54:21,402 --> 00:54:24,298
How dare you. Yeah, but, uh, from. From looking
1257
00:54:24,354 --> 00:54:26,550
as a person who's grown up from the outside.
1258
00:54:26,960 --> 00:54:28,980
Come be with us.
1259
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,264
>> Loren: That's good. Let's take a
1260
00:54:34,272 --> 00:54:37,180
break and we'll come back with some closing questions.
1261
00:54:40,720 --> 00:54:41,192
>> Speaker D: All right.
1262
00:54:41,216 --> 00:54:44,152
>> Loren: We're back with Michelle Frigna. Warren. Thank you so much
1263
00:54:44,176 --> 00:54:47,112
for this conversation. Closing questions. I
1264
00:54:47,136 --> 00:54:50,056
always tell folks. We tell folks. Co host Martha, Shout
1265
00:54:50,088 --> 00:54:50,568
out.
1266
00:54:50,620 --> 00:54:53,226
Uh, you can take these as seriously or not as you want to,
1267
00:54:53,368 --> 00:54:55,010
but if you're Pope for a day,
1268
00:54:57,150 --> 00:54:58,502
what does that look like for you?
1269
00:54:58,606 --> 00:55:01,590
>> Speaker D: My goodness. If I was Pope for a day, I really would shake things up
1270
00:55:01,710 --> 00:55:04,630
because the Pope is supposed to be the head of the church and
1271
00:55:04,670 --> 00:55:07,542
has a global reach and some
1272
00:55:07,566 --> 00:55:10,470
of that has been used for harm. I'm thinking of
1273
00:55:10,510 --> 00:55:13,334
sort of the Papal Bulls of the doctrine of discovery
1274
00:55:13,382 --> 00:55:16,182
and all the harm of colonization. I
1275
00:55:16,206 --> 00:55:19,014
actually wrote a paper that I presented in Oxford now, a couple
1276
00:55:19,062 --> 00:55:21,618
years ago now on how we
1277
00:55:21,674 --> 00:55:23,954
could fix our white Christian
1278
00:55:24,002 --> 00:55:26,834
nationalism problem and the Pope
1279
00:55:26,882 --> 00:55:29,586
could do it. Oh, so if I were Pope for a day.
1280
00:55:29,658 --> 00:55:30,786
>> Loren: Oh, my goodness.
1281
00:55:30,978 --> 00:55:33,970
>> Speaker D: I would insist that we, as the
1282
00:55:34,010 --> 00:55:36,642
church establish. I'm talking about the global Christian
1283
00:55:36,706 --> 00:55:39,666
Church established a truth Racial
1284
00:55:39,698 --> 00:55:42,110
Healing and Transformation Commission, much like the
1285
00:55:43,130 --> 00:55:46,130
healing commissions of itself. Apartheid. I mean, there's been many
1286
00:55:46,170 --> 00:55:49,134
across the whole, whole world in history. But we would
1287
00:55:49,142 --> 00:55:51,662
have a truth Racial Healing Transformation Commission,
1288
00:55:51,846 --> 00:55:54,782
and the church would not run it. At least the white or
1289
00:55:54,806 --> 00:55:57,390
dominant or Euro church, so the black church could run
1290
00:55:57,430 --> 00:55:59,934
it. But that we would need to present
1291
00:56:00,022 --> 00:56:02,846
ourselves before a truth
1292
00:56:02,878 --> 00:56:05,774
commission to answer for our
1293
00:56:05,942 --> 00:56:08,686
atrocities and then ones we continue
1294
00:56:08,838 --> 00:56:11,822
to perpetuate by insisting that
1295
00:56:11,846 --> 00:56:14,622
a kingdom that has come through Christ and his humility
1296
00:56:14,686 --> 00:56:17,330
and emptying himself out, that
1297
00:56:17,370 --> 00:56:20,354
we have grabbed power,
1298
00:56:20,522 --> 00:56:23,154
we have tried to have dominion. I mean, like, we should follow the
1299
00:56:23,162 --> 00:56:26,130
temptations of Christ. You know, he did not say yes to being
1300
00:56:26,170 --> 00:56:29,170
in power and we need to say no as well, and that
1301
00:56:29,210 --> 00:56:32,050
we should submit humbly to a commission, and if we lose titles
1302
00:56:32,130 --> 00:56:34,590
and buildings and property, so be it.
1303
00:56:34,890 --> 00:56:37,570
So, yeah, I would establish a commission and I would make the
1304
00:56:37,610 --> 00:56:39,830
white Euro church
1305
00:56:41,620 --> 00:56:43,484
be the ones who have to answer to it.
1306
00:56:43,572 --> 00:56:45,964
>> Loren: That is Perhaps the most well thought out
1307
00:56:46,132 --> 00:56:47,932
response I think I've gotten, perhaps.
1308
00:56:47,996 --> 00:56:50,748
>> Speaker D: Well, if you read the paper that I wrote for
1309
00:56:50,884 --> 00:56:53,388
even the progressive group at Oxford, he was quite shocked.
1310
00:56:53,404 --> 00:56:55,964
>> Loren: I feel like I need to, like, have a link in the show notes,
1311
00:56:56,012 --> 00:56:56,556
so.
1312
00:56:56,708 --> 00:56:59,500
>> Speaker D: Oh, I should find out where in the press
1313
00:56:59,540 --> 00:57:00,956
link it could be. I will look for it.
1314
00:57:01,028 --> 00:57:03,884
>> Loren: Send it to me. Um, a theologian or historical
1315
00:57:03,932 --> 00:57:06,812
Christian figure you don't want to meet, bring back
1316
00:57:06,836 --> 00:57:07,228
to life.
1317
00:57:07,284 --> 00:57:08,020
>> Speaker D: Okay, there's two.
1318
00:57:08,100 --> 00:57:08,884
>> Loren: Yeah, that's allowed.
1319
00:57:08,932 --> 00:57:10,148
>> Speaker D: I don't want to bring anybody back to life.
1320
00:57:10,204 --> 00:57:10,964
>> Loren: That's okay.
1321
00:57:11,012 --> 00:57:12,164
>> Speaker D: I appreciate them for their.
1322
00:57:12,252 --> 00:57:15,092
Okay, so very Old Testament Deborah. I
1323
00:57:15,116 --> 00:57:18,052
actually write about her in chapter 8 or 9
1324
00:57:18,076 --> 00:57:20,980
of the Power of Proximity, as
1325
00:57:21,020 --> 00:57:23,972
a worship leader, as, uh, a wife of a man who was
1326
00:57:23,996 --> 00:57:26,916
respected at the Cape. In that
1327
00:57:26,988 --> 00:57:29,444
scenario, as well as one that grows up in a fundamental
1328
00:57:29,492 --> 00:57:32,120
evangelical church, how would God
1329
00:57:32,460 --> 00:57:35,370
choose a woman to lead?
1330
00:57:36,710 --> 00:57:39,470
My husband did a toast
1331
00:57:39,630 --> 00:57:42,574
probably 15, 20 years ago now and said to a
1332
00:57:42,582 --> 00:57:45,342
modern day Deborah, he got me a palm tree and said, a
1333
00:57:45,366 --> 00:57:48,366
modern day Deborah, because he was watching me
1334
00:57:48,438 --> 00:57:51,406
lead senior pastors, national leaders,
1335
00:57:51,478 --> 00:57:54,174
literally to war in the political realm,
1336
00:57:54,302 --> 00:57:57,086
in the spiritual realm, on behalf of justice.
1337
00:57:57,198 --> 00:58:00,062
And so, Deborah, she says, who am I? In
1338
00:58:00,086 --> 00:58:02,350
her song, who am I But a mother in
1339
00:58:02,390 --> 00:58:05,102
Israel? That's why I feel, who am I? Just a mother in
1340
00:58:05,126 --> 00:58:05,678
Denver.
1341
00:58:05,774 --> 00:58:06,046
>> Loren: Yeah.
1342
00:58:06,078 --> 00:58:08,750
>> Speaker D: These little kids, this is hard to even believe. So,
1343
00:58:08,790 --> 00:58:11,486
Deborah, oh, my goodness. I want to talk to her.
1344
00:58:11,638 --> 00:58:13,934
And then the second one is Mother
1345
00:58:13,982 --> 00:58:16,654
Cabrini, hands down. I write about her enjoying the
1346
00:58:16,662 --> 00:58:19,582
resistance. I write about. A lot of people join the resistance,
1347
00:58:19,646 --> 00:58:21,902
but Mother Cabrini here in
1348
00:58:22,006 --> 00:58:24,702
Colorado, we no longer have Columbus Day, we have
1349
00:58:24,726 --> 00:58:27,038
Cabrini Day because we want to respect
1350
00:58:27,174 --> 00:58:30,042
Italian American heritage or
1351
00:58:30,146 --> 00:58:32,950
heritage without using someone who
1352
00:58:33,490 --> 00:58:34,714
did some horrible acts.
1353
00:58:34,762 --> 00:58:35,034
>> Loren: Yes.
1354
00:58:35,082 --> 00:58:38,042
>> Speaker D: And Cabrini was. She was the
1355
00:58:38,066 --> 00:58:40,778
first American citizen to be
1356
00:58:40,834 --> 00:58:42,310
canonized as a saint.
1357
00:58:42,310 --> 00:58:42,810
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
1358
00:58:42,810 --> 00:58:45,550
>> Speaker D: She is the saint of the immigrant.
1359
00:58:46,050 --> 00:58:48,730
She wanted to do work, and the Pope told
1360
00:58:48,770 --> 00:58:51,690
her because she had a bad lung condition, she was
1361
00:58:51,730 --> 00:58:54,642
too weak, and she wouldn't give up.
1362
00:58:54,786 --> 00:58:57,554
And so instead of being able to go to the east, he said, go to the
1363
00:58:57,562 --> 00:59:00,562
west and help the Italian immigrants in New
1364
00:59:00,586 --> 00:59:03,554
York. And she ended up starting and moved
1365
00:59:03,602 --> 00:59:06,450
all the way from the west, further
1366
00:59:06,490 --> 00:59:09,234
west, and ended up in China with the largest Catholic order
1367
00:59:09,402 --> 00:59:12,322
in her name. And I will just say that I am
1368
00:59:12,346 --> 00:59:15,218
struggling with whooping cough because I had complications, because
1369
00:59:15,274 --> 00:59:18,162
since I was a very little girl, four, just like a
1370
00:59:18,186 --> 00:59:20,710
rainy four or five, I have very weak lungs.
1371
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:24,024
I'm an asthmatic. When things happen I'm
1372
00:59:24,072 --> 00:59:27,000
hospitalized. Um, I mean, like, it is not. It doesn't happen
1373
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:27,480
often.
1374
00:59:27,530 --> 00:59:27,790
>> Loren: Uh-huh.
1375
00:59:27,790 --> 00:59:30,632
>> Speaker D: I'm very fierce, but when it does, I have no good health to
1376
00:59:30,656 --> 00:59:31,096
fall on.
1377
00:59:31,168 --> 00:59:31,512
>> Loren: Yeah.
1378
00:59:31,576 --> 00:59:34,568
>> Speaker D: So to be hospitalized on oxygen, struggling these months
1379
00:59:34,624 --> 00:59:37,496
later. That's right. That's about right. Well, Mother
1380
00:59:37,528 --> 00:59:40,456
Cabrini was fierce for her love for Christ
1381
00:59:40,528 --> 00:59:43,320
and her care for the poor, her care for immigrants.
1382
00:59:43,400 --> 00:59:46,200
I'm an Italian American. She's an Italian
1383
00:59:46,280 --> 00:59:49,200
immigrant who became an American, and she was
1384
00:59:49,240 --> 00:59:52,064
told to play it safe because of her health.
1385
00:59:52,232 --> 00:59:54,860
Exactly like people wanted to bubble wrap me.
1386
00:59:55,320 --> 00:59:58,320
>> Loren: That's a good answer. Um,
1387
00:59:58,320 --> 01:00:01,312
this is a broad question, so feel free to answer how
1388
01:00:01,336 --> 01:00:02,016
you wish.
1389
01:00:02,128 --> 01:00:04,880
What do you think history will remember from our current time and
1390
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:05,504
place?
1391
01:00:05,672 --> 01:00:07,780
>> Speaker D: It will not remember us kindly.
1392
01:00:09,800 --> 01:00:12,592
We've had a good conversation. I haven't.
1393
01:00:12,656 --> 01:00:15,142
I felt passionate at times, but not
1394
01:00:15,166 --> 01:00:15,942
emotional.
1395
01:00:16,086 --> 01:00:16,550
>> Loren: Yeah.
1396
01:00:16,630 --> 01:00:17,930
>> Speaker D: I feel emotional.
1397
01:00:21,070 --> 01:00:24,038
History's hand is being written,
1398
01:00:24,214 --> 01:00:27,062
and it needs to be stopped because
1399
01:00:27,166 --> 01:00:29,622
the church. And that's all of, um, us, not just the
1400
01:00:29,646 --> 01:00:30,390
evangelicals.
1401
01:00:30,470 --> 01:00:31,158
>> Loren: Yeah.
1402
01:00:31,334 --> 01:00:33,574
>> Speaker D: The Christian church will
1403
01:00:33,742 --> 01:00:36,262
not be remembered
1404
01:00:36,406 --> 01:00:37,290
kindly.
1405
01:00:39,070 --> 01:00:40,690
>> Loren: Yeah. How hard to argue with
1406
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:43,736
turning.
1407
01:00:43,848 --> 01:00:46,360
Turning this a little bit more optimistic, I suppose, or
1408
01:00:46,400 --> 01:00:49,384
hopeful. What would you then hope for the
1409
01:00:49,392 --> 01:00:50,232
future of Christianity?
1410
01:00:50,296 --> 01:00:51,160
>> Speaker D: I won't tell you right now.
1411
01:00:51,200 --> 01:00:52,616
>> Loren: Yeah, we've talked about this. Yeah.
1412
01:00:52,648 --> 01:00:55,592
>> Speaker D: Hope is what we got. You know, I've had friends. I had this one particular friend.
1413
01:00:55,616 --> 01:00:58,552
He's like, how. How can you do another day? And it was
1414
01:00:58,576 --> 01:01:01,512
during a really bleak time. I said, you know what? Every day
1415
01:01:01,536 --> 01:01:03,032
I have to drink a glass of hope.
1416
01:01:03,136 --> 01:01:03,704
>> Loren: Yeah.
1417
01:01:03,832 --> 01:01:06,248
>> Speaker D: And sometimes that glass is asked to be huge.
1418
01:01:06,344 --> 01:01:06,754
>> Loren: Yeah.
1419
01:01:06,832 --> 01:01:08,590
>> Speaker D: I mean, hope. It's not about the present.
1420
01:01:08,710 --> 01:01:09,390
>> Loren: Yeah.
1421
01:01:09,550 --> 01:01:12,302
>> Speaker D: It is this conviction, this faith to believe
1422
01:01:12,406 --> 01:01:15,294
that what I see right now does not have to be. It's setting a
1423
01:01:15,302 --> 01:01:17,806
vision of what can be. So I hope
1424
01:01:17,878 --> 01:01:20,702
for what I have been literally
1425
01:01:20,766 --> 01:01:23,470
created and called. I think
1426
01:01:23,510 --> 01:01:26,366
humanity has been called to hope for peace,
1427
01:01:26,558 --> 01:01:29,406
for wholeness, for restoration. But there
1428
01:01:29,478 --> 01:01:31,950
will not be peace without
1429
01:01:32,070 --> 01:01:35,034
doing the work of justice. So
1430
01:01:35,042 --> 01:01:37,898
my hope for my people and, you know, enjoying the resistance,
1431
01:01:37,994 --> 01:01:40,310
a third of that book is how to help our people.
1432
01:01:41,090 --> 01:01:43,510
And when I say help my people, they're one of my people.
1433
01:01:44,370 --> 01:01:47,270
My hope is that we will understand
1434
01:01:47,970 --> 01:01:50,538
a, uh, public theology that would
1435
01:01:50,594 --> 01:01:53,578
drive and deepen us
1436
01:01:53,634 --> 01:01:56,442
into a public discipleship and
1437
01:01:56,466 --> 01:01:59,030
engagement. No more private
1438
01:01:59,380 --> 01:02:02,300
need it. No more private. Needed
1439
01:02:02,380 --> 01:02:05,132
meaning public for everyone. God so
1440
01:02:05,156 --> 01:02:08,060
loved the whole world. The church needs to love the
1441
01:02:08,100 --> 01:02:11,020
whole world in
1442
01:02:11,060 --> 01:02:13,360
action and in truth.
1443
01:02:15,060 --> 01:02:17,932
>> Loren: All right, well, I appreciate this conversation.
1444
01:02:18,076 --> 01:02:20,988
Thank you so much for your time. Um, obviously, the book
1445
01:02:21,044 --> 01:02:23,996
is power. No, I can tell you tell.
1446
01:02:24,068 --> 01:02:26,942
I'm getting the titles confused. Give your book, give how
1447
01:02:26,966 --> 01:02:29,070
folks can connect with you, all that stuff.
1448
01:02:29,230 --> 01:02:32,190
>> Speaker D: First of all, I'm not an email snob, so if you email
1449
01:02:32,230 --> 01:02:35,102
me@michelleforignowarren.com
1450
01:02:35,286 --> 01:02:38,174
it would be very rare that. I mean, something happened. I
1451
01:02:38,182 --> 01:02:40,990
got whooping cough. So email me again. So my
1452
01:02:41,030 --> 01:02:44,030
first. So Michelle ferrignowarren.com is my
1453
01:02:44,070 --> 01:02:46,750
website. I obviously can get to know me. I have
1454
01:02:46,790 --> 01:02:49,694
organizations locally and nationally that can help you do the
1455
01:02:49,702 --> 01:02:52,462
work of justice groups. I work with groups I
1456
01:02:52,486 --> 01:02:55,422
trust. Even my company, Virago Strategies, you can see who
1457
01:02:55,446 --> 01:02:58,394
I work with. I do a lot of technical assistance for church, churches and
1458
01:02:58,402 --> 01:03:01,070
nonprofit, um, leaders to help them do the work of justice.
1459
01:03:01,370 --> 01:03:04,266
Um, and also if you're in Denver, how to actually specifically
1460
01:03:04,298 --> 01:03:07,082
help migrant arrivals. And now how to respond in
1461
01:03:07,106 --> 01:03:09,386
protection defense to possible immigration deportation.
1462
01:03:09,418 --> 01:03:12,202
>> Loren: Gosh, I wish we had more time to talk about that because just some news came out on
1463
01:03:12,226 --> 01:03:13,818
that and churches, but we don't have time.
1464
01:03:13,874 --> 01:03:16,810
>> Speaker D: Yeah, yeah. Anyway, check out the website. But
1465
01:03:16,850 --> 01:03:19,850
my books, I have two books right now, and on my website
1466
01:03:19,890 --> 01:03:22,762
I have podcasts and articles, and I've written quite a bit. But the first
1467
01:03:22,786 --> 01:03:25,398
book was the Power of Proximity Moving Beyond
1468
01:03:25,494 --> 01:03:28,358
Awareness to Action. And the next book
1469
01:03:28,414 --> 01:03:31,110
is actually picks you right up from chapter nine into
1470
01:03:31,150 --> 01:03:33,990
chapter one. It originally was supposed to be called
1471
01:03:34,030 --> 01:03:35,270
the Power of Resistance.
1472
01:03:35,350 --> 01:03:36,102
>> Loren: Okay.
1473
01:03:36,246 --> 01:03:39,094
>> Speaker D: I changed it Join the Resistance, because it came out and I
1474
01:03:39,102 --> 01:03:41,900
was writing it right around George Floyd.
1475
01:03:41,900 --> 01:03:44,742
Uh, and I didn't want anybody to think that they
1476
01:03:44,766 --> 01:03:47,430
should start something new, uh, that we needed to
1477
01:03:47,470 --> 01:03:50,422
join the move that was already happening. Not just for
1478
01:03:50,446 --> 01:03:51,034
a day.
1479
01:03:51,182 --> 01:03:51,538
>> Loren: Right.
1480
01:03:51,594 --> 01:03:52,546
>> Speaker D: I mean, a day is fine.
1481
01:03:52,578 --> 01:03:52,786
>> Loren: Yeah.
1482
01:03:52,818 --> 01:03:55,730
>> Speaker D: But keep going. And so join the resistance. Step
1483
01:03:55,770 --> 01:03:58,722
into the good work of Kingdom Justice. It has a
1484
01:03:58,746 --> 01:04:01,538
study guide built into it. It has a Spotify playlist.
1485
01:04:01,634 --> 01:04:04,482
You know, it's. It's a. It's an in depth book, a kind of a
1486
01:04:04,506 --> 01:04:07,010
manual to, uh, how to do the work of public
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01:04:07,050 --> 01:04:09,906
discipleship and engagement. As a Christian, I
1488
01:04:09,978 --> 01:04:12,818
might have evangelical rootedness, but I wrote that book
1489
01:04:12,874 --> 01:04:15,874
with Catholics in mind and mainlines inline. I
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01:04:15,882 --> 01:04:17,670
think it has a generous Christian orthodox.
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01:04:17,780 --> 01:04:20,642
>> Loren: Yeah, I forgot about the, the songs. That was a fun part about the
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01:04:20,666 --> 01:04:20,994
book.
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01:04:21,082 --> 01:04:21,794
>> Speaker D: I'm a musician.
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01:04:21,842 --> 01:04:24,738
>> Loren: Yeah, there's. Because there's another book. Well, we don't have time to discuss, but
1495
01:04:24,794 --> 01:04:26,882
thank you so much for your time. I really appreciate the
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01:04:26,906 --> 01:04:29,810
conversation. Always, um, leave folks with a word of peace.
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01:04:29,890 --> 01:04:31,314
So may God's peace be with you.
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01:04:31,402 --> 01:04:32,910
>> Speaker D: Thank you. And also with you.
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01:04:39,370 --> 01:04:42,226
>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian Podcast.
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01:04:42,338 --> 01:04:45,196
The Future Future Christian Podcast is produced by Resonate
1501
01:04:45,228 --> 01:04:47,788
Media. We love to hear from our listeners with
1502
01:04:47,844 --> 01:04:50,156
questions, comments and ideas for future
1503
01:04:50,228 --> 01:04:52,500
episodes. Visit our website at, uh,
1504
01:04:52,500 --> 01:04:55,308
future-christian.com and find the
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01:04:55,364 --> 01:04:58,332
Connect with Us form at the bottom of the page to get
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01:04:58,356 --> 01:05:00,972
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01:05:00,996 --> 01:05:03,852
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