Josh Packard on Faithfully Engaging the Next Generation

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>> Martha Tatarnic: This is the Future Christian Podcast, a
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conversation about church leadership, fresh ideas
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and the future of the church. Welcome to the
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Future Christian Podcast. Today, Loren Richmond
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Jr. Is in conversation with Dr. Josh Packard. Josh
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is the co founder of Future of Faith and one of
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the foremost experts in the spiritual lives of
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American youth and religious trends in the United
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States. He is an accomplished researcher in the
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sociology of religion and new forms of religious
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expression. He is a frequent keynote speaker and
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acts as an advisor and board member to a number of
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faith based organizations. Josh has authored
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numerous books and articles in both popular and
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academic outlets, including the recently released
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Faithful Sacred Tools for Engaging Younger
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Generations. Previous books include Church
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Sociologists Reveal why People Are Done with
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Church But Not Their Faith and Meaning. Eight
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Values that Drive America's Newest Generations.
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Josh lives in Greeley, Colorado with his wife and
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teenage son where he is quickly becoming the third
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best golfer in his family of three. A reminder,
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before we start today's conversation, please take
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a moment to subscribe to the podcast, leave a
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review and share Future Christian with a friend.
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Connect with Loren, Martha and Future Christian on
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Instagram. Shoot us an
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email@laurensonatemediapro.com with comments,
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questions or ideas for future episodes. Your
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support means a lot to us in making this podcast
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possible.
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>> Loren: Welcome to the Future Christian Podcast, recording
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live and in person from Thornton, Colorado in m my
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home and with. I'm here live with Josh Packard.
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Hello and thanks for being here.
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>> Josh Packard: Um, uh, it's so good to be in person. Usually you
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have to do these things over a screen and it's so
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nice to just get to talk.
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>> Loren: I feel like we should call this like a, an
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official conference or something. But it's just.
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It is what it is. Josh, you're going down to the.
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You want to plug.
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>> Josh Packard: Oh yeah, headed down to the forma conference, um,
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which is a first time experience for me here. Um,
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and gonna kind of talk about gonna have some
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dinner with people for this big storytelling grant
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that we just got in conjunction with BTS and are
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helping to lead over the next five years. It's
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gonna be really exciting.
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>> Loren: Cool. Cool. Well, we're here to talk about,
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amongst other things, your book Faithful Future
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Sacred Tools for Engaging Younger Generations. But
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before we begin, you wanted to share about your
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background faith journey, what that looks like,
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what that looks like today.
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>> Josh Packard: Happy to. Um, I, gosh, I would tell the story by
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saying that I grew up Lutheran, but the truth is
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that we didn't um, start going to church until it
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was time to get confirmed. Even though there's
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never a sense of Antagonism towards religion at
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all. Um, my dad's Catholic. My mom is born, uh,
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and raised uh, in the Lutheran Church. And when it
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came time for me to get confirmed, you know, they
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had a coin flip to see, you know, we're going to
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the ELCA church down the road or the Catholic
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Church. And my mom won the coin flip. But if she
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hadn't, I'm pretty sure we'd gone for two out of
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three or three out of five. You know how moms are.
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>> Loren: Yeah, yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: And that theology, um, has really resonated with
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me. Um, I've been happy to work to Texas Lutheran
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University. Not really for religious reasons, but
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it was just sort of in my sphere and then just
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stayed involved with it. I became a sociologist of
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religion because I was super interested in this.
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And um, met my wife actually in college and we
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were both campus ministry assistants. But we've
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never been in formal ministry positions. I mean
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I've never. I don't pretend to have been a pastor.
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Gosh. Or um, even you know, like a youth minister.
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You know, sort of non ordained positions. Um, but
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lots of friends who are. And stay connected to the
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church.
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>> Loren: But some camping ministry experience which I think
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will.
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>> Josh Packard: Two years at Sky Ranch Lutheran Camp, which is an
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incredible place. But yeah, that is the extent of
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my formal ministry. Physicians.
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>> Loren: Yeah. Uh, for those paying attention to. We do
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have some non human guests, some dogs in the
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background.
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>> Josh Packard: We have a live studio audience.
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>> Loren: Yeah, studio audiences. Right.
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>> Josh Packard: Two really adorable dogs.
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>> Loren: I'm glad you think so. Yeah. My kids would be so
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sad, um, if you guys left. Well, sociologists
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sometimes get weirded out when I ask this
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question. So I'll leave you some space to answer
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this how you want to.
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>> Josh Packard: Uh.
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>> Loren: Asking about spiritual practices for yourself if
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you want to answer it sociologically. What
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spiritual practices you see in the broader
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culture.
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>> Josh Packard: We are coming up on one of my favorite, um,
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seasons in the church, uh, of Lent. Um, uh, it's
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one that M means it holds a particular kind of
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place for us at the church that we go to now. Our
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son is named Holden, um, not after Holden
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Caulfield, but after the Holden Evening Prayer,
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which is a little interesting inside of the um.
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ELCA comes out of Holden Village and our church
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does it every Wednesday night during Lent. And so
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it's um, it's. We just. My wife and I really liked
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that liturgy. We did it when we were campus
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ministers. And um, it's. It's really. I mean what
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a stroke of luck to get to find a congregation
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that does it every Lent. You know, Right. For the
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Wednesday night. So that's a big one for us. Um,
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but also every morning when my son is eating
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breakfast and my wife is there, we. I read a poem
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or two from Mary Oliver and that has been a very
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nice grounding. Sort of. I mean, she's overtly.
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Not even, it's not even like undertones of
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religion, just overtly. And so, um, uh, that's
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been a good practice for us lately too.
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>> Loren: Yeah. Cool. Thanks for sharing. I am curious. This
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is something that my co host Martha is always more
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attached to than I am. But we hear a lot of people
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talk about utilization of the daily office. Do
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you. Have you seen anything there? Like, do you
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think it's more than anecdotal, this more leaning
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into more ritual and spiritual practice?
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>> Josh Packard: Um, I mean, I can speak for myself and my friends
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like the praise you go app. Um, has been
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incredibly useful in this regard. And the. I don't
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know if you're familiar with it, but the um, it is
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sort of deeply contemplative. Yeah, you know,
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it's, it's. It feels like this resistance against
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celebrity preaching in almost like this very over
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way. Um, when I look at the landscape of what
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young people are engaged and energized by these
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days, I mean, there will always be an attractional
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element. Churches who do that very well are always
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going to be able to attract people. But, um, the
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questions that seem to be animating them are also
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those things that sort of connect them to some
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sense that what they're. The purported truth that
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they're getting is connected to something more
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than 15 minutes old. Right. Um, even if the basic
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content of the sermon is the same at many other
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places, I think they're really hungry for this
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idea that there is a strain of truth or experience
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at the very least that stretches beyond time.
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>> Loren: Interesting. Well, I'm glad you brought that up
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because we're talking today about your book
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Faithful Sacred Tools for Engaging Younger
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Generations. And I think, I think the first thing
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that comes to mind, I suppose I should give you an
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opportunity, just kind of generalize what the
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book's about, what you hope to accomplish.
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>> Josh Packard: Oh, sure. Thanks. I think the way that we
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generally tend to approach generations in
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religious spaces is, um, not particularly useful.
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Uh, I make this distinction a lot in my work that,
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like I say, I want to be useful, not interesting.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: Um, and I think the way we talk about generations
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as containers tends to be interesting but not
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particularly useful. And that's largely because
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the amount of diversity that is present in our
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world and uh, so Trying to classify an entire
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generation as, you know, fill in the blank was
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never particularly good. As the world has gotten
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more diverse, I think we're actually moving
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backwards. I think we're capturing less than even
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half of the actual truth, uh, and experiences of
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um, um, Gen Z, say or Gen Alpha, when we try to
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characterize them all in a particular way. Um, and
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so the book is really an attempt to get people to
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rethink their approach to generations as more
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process than product. So let's think about what
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are they experiencing, what questions are they
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asking? How can we speak, um, a language of truth
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into a moment in this world when everything seems
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up for grabs as opposed to trying to stereotype
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them with a set of bullet pointed characteristics
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and then build a program that like messages those
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characteristics, which I don't, I find to be
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actually kind of demeaning.
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>> Loren: Yeah. So it's basically like, the point is like
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Gen Z is always name characteristics. Let's build
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a program around them being like, so socially
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media driven and obsessed, for instance. Like,
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let's build a program. And your point is like,
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that's too simplistic, not accurate.
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>> Josh Packard: And often it gets worse than that. Like, it's like
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Gen Z doesn't they have short attention spans? But
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they say millennials are narcissistic. Right. I
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mean we are, but uh, Gen X is slackers. I mean,
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yes, you are and we are, but we're also a lot of
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other things and that characteristic is not evenly
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distributed. Right. So if you go to rural Iowa,
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you're going to find a very different experience
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of a 15 year old than if you are in Boston.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: Um, and if you're, you know, if you're gay, you're
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going to have a very different experience of being
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a 15 year old, um, than, than not. Um, and if
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you're black, you know your experience. And now
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like this is the most diverse generation that has
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ever existed, not just in America. This is the
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most diverse generation that's ever existed
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anywhere, ever. And so the idea of like, oh, well,
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let's say they're all media obsessed. Well that's
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not true. That's just like you're going backwards.
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>> Loren: I mean, I think it's important to say in general
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because I think, I think the whole generational
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thing, it's sort of like this like left brain,
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right brain or like the, what the like amoeba
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brain or the reptile brain.
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>> Josh Packard: The reptile brain.
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>> Loren: Like it's become like this like helpful analogy
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that's been made into like concrete fact.
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>> Josh Packard: Right.
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>> Loren: And I sort of wanted, like, but so I appreciate
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that perspective. You talk in the book to begin
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too. And I sort of think this is along the same
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vein around why the mental models no longer work
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for Gen Z, Gen Alpha. So if I understood that
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you're kind of like, what you and I might know
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about, like, being a young person, like, throw
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that all out the window.
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>> Josh Packard: Yeah.
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>> Loren: Is that too harsh?
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>> Josh Packard: Uh, I don't think it's okay. So there's two
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reasons. The argument that I'm making is that, you
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know, basically when we try to understand young
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people, we reach back to our own experiences as
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young people.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: And we know that they're not 100% the same, but
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that's where we start often. And, um, the argument
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they're making is that the world is so much
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different, as accelerated the pace of change, um,
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over the last 10 or 15 years, that our own
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experiences are not particularly helpful in that
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regard. Um, but more importantly than that, like,
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even if you could say, actually, you know, the
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kids that I'm working with are a lot like I was
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when I was a kid, that may be true. Um, I think
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the more salient point here is that thinking that
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you can extrapolate from your experience to the
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experiences of today's teenagers with some degree
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of certainty, um, almost inhibits or prohibits
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your ability to be curious. If you think you know
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what's going on.
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>> Loren: Mhm.
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>> Josh Packard: Why would you bother to stop and ask a question?
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And that gets us to, like, where we're at in this
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current cultural moment where the, the source of
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truth, like the, the source of trust is going to
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be found in relationships. Yeah, it's not gonna.
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The data are clear. People don't trust
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institutions or their leaders. It's all through
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relationships. And when you're not inclined to ask
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questions and be curious, it's really hard to form
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a relationship with somebody when you think you
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already know everything about them or a lot about
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them.
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>> Loren: It's interesting that you say that, because I'm
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thinking of a podcast I produce for an Episcopal
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diocese that's supposed to be centered around
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young adults. So I always listen as I'm, um,
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editing as sort of mini focus panels, especially
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when they have young adults on. And this young
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adult, this woman, was college age and she was
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talking about inviting friends to church. And her
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point was like, you know me, you trust me, if I'm
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going there to church, it must be safe, right?
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>> Josh Packard: Yeah, And I think that's exactly right. We, uh,
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did this big study at future faith around
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listening and faith formation, and over and over
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again, the data from that are lining up with the
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other kinds of data we've collected around. Just
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reinforcing this idea of, you know, the primary
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point of trust is not because somebody with an
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important title tells you something.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: Um, you know, you encounter a big institution on
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the corner where a whole bunch of people go to.
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People are more inclined to trust the small church
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that their friend goes to than the evidence of,
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you know, thousands of strangers flocking to the
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same place on a Sunday. And that's a big shift. I
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mean, even when I was growing up, we would have
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looked at the big church and said, well, look, if
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that's good enough for those 3,000 people who are,
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uh, in my community, then it must be good enough
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for me. And boy, I just think the world has
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changed.
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>> Loren: This is sort of off topic, but I want to stay on
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this because it's interesting. I'm thinking of. I,
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uh, have a book on my shelf from Gary McIntosh, if
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you've heard that name. Thinking of Southern
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Baptist context. But certainly there's some truth
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to this. Bigger churches have a draw. But I think
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it's really intriguing, your point about smaller.
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>> Josh Packard: I don't think it has to be small. It's just like
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the, the access point that matters, especially,
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especially for sustaining, um, or for people who
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are on the margins is going to be through. Okay.
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Because somebody, you know, has, uh, personally
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invited you or goes there or whatever.
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>> Loren: But I guess I'm thinking like that this is
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probably a bit too dramatic, but it gets hope, I
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guess to a smaller church like you like, the way
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to reach people is not like you have to be huge
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and dynamic.
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>> Josh Packard: I think that is true. Like, I think there is some.
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I, um, would see it as hopeful, but I like
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relationships. I'm not inclined to run a big
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campaign. I like getting to know people. But if
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that's not like. I think it could be very
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discouraging if you're, you know, if you are
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trying to sort of play the same game as big and
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well resourced churches and you don't particularly
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want to lean into the slow and long work of
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relationships.
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>> Loren: Well, let's talk, let's get back into the book.
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You talk about fast and slow with youth and young
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adults. Talk more about what you mean by that.
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>> Josh Packard: Well, it's sort of a takeoff from, um, the famous
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book Thinking Fast and Slow. But this is. I was
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reading that book and I was thinking about
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teenagers and I was like, you know, they're sort
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of growing up fast and slow.
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>> Loren: Right.
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>> Josh Packard: Um, but the problem is that adults Often don't see
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it. M. They only see the slow part. They see the,
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um, sort of in person part. They see the barista
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at Starbucks that can't make change in their head.
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They see the teenager that they meet who can't
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shake hands or make eye contact. And, you know,
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the, the kids that they know who are turning 16,
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17, 18, and still don't drive, want to drive. And
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they see like, why are you. You know, you're all
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these traditional markers. Um, like you're growing
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up. So. And sociologically, the data are the same.
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They're leaving the house later than ever. They m.
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Drink less, they have sex less, they do drugs
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less, they're graduating from college later, they
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get married later. Like, it's just all of these
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things, you know, good and bad. I mean, some of
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those are. Doing less drugs is a good thing.
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Right. Um, but these sort of normal parts of
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adolescence are all just seeming like they take
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forever. Um, and that's what most adults see.
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Right. But there is this, there is this aspect to
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being a teenager today where they're growing up
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faster than ever. And a lot of that is happening
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online. And this is the part that adults almost
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never see. And so the exposure to information.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: Um, that they're. They get. I was thinking about
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this through the lens of my. My own 15 year old,
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and I was like, he is encountering more news about
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the world and more perspectives in a week, in a
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day than I would have gotten in a year when I was
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15. Would have been like, what, 1993? Um, and I
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just think, like, what was my. I was trying to
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think, like, what was my access point to news? And
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it was, you know, literally what I would have
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overheard as I passed through the living room and
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my parents were watching.
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>> Loren: Uh, I mean, mine would have been like, flipping
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through the newspaper on my way to the sports.
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>> Josh Packard: That's right. Yes, I would have. I would have seen
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the headlines of the Dallas Morning News as I went
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to the sports. Yeah, but it was. And so he's
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getting. And you could argue that, like, what he's
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seeing. We have a New York Times subscription. He
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reads that. But also it's a lot on YouTube shorts.
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>> Loren: Right.
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>> Josh Packard: And his friends. And. And so you, uh, can argue
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about whether it's true or not true and all that.
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That's a whole different question. But my point is
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that they're growing up so fast and so this
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cognitive dissonance that that produces where
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often the adults in their lives are saying, what's
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taking you so long? And yet, ah, as Teenagers are
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having these conversations. The way I often report
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this is what one teenager said to me is like, how
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am I supposed to listen? I'm paraphrasing, but
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this is basically like, how am I supposed to
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listen to this adult about the way they think I
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should be behaving when they don't even know the
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first thing about pronouns?
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: And it's. You know what I mean? Like, it's not
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that I don't think that adults are resisting those
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conversations. They're just literally not in the
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spaces where they're happening. It's almost like
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teenagers living parallel lives that's growing up
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fast and slow.
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>> Loren: Yeah. You talk about the importance of listening.
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In just that conversation. Certainly you talk
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about it in your book. I think, like, I'm thinking
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again about, like, mentorship. How we would
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understand the kind of mentor youth relationship
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is like, me giving advice. And if I'm hearing you
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correctly in this conversation, in the book, I
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feel like it's almost the opposite, would you say,
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where it's like, rather than me just sitting and,
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like, imposing my wisdom on some kid, it's like,
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me, like, tell me what's happening and I'm just
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gonna be listening.
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>> Josh Packard: There is an aspect to that. And people who have
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done. I mean, look there. Mentoring is proven. It
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is effective when done well, almost more so than
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anything else. And, um, but there's a lot of
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different ways to do mentoring. And as you
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mentioned, some people have a very narrow, uh,
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idea that it means, like, I'm gonna dispense some
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sagely wisdom to you. Um, but good mentors know
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that that's a very important, but takes up a very
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small amount of the time. Most of the time is
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actually spent listening to them. And I think the
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challenge here in ministry settings is that it's.
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It can be really hard to sit and listen to a
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teenager.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: They say wild things.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: You know, if you earn the trust enough that they
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start talking to you, some of the stuff they say
438
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can be bonkers. Um, frankly. And then some of it
439
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is just alarming, um, about what their plans are
440
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and, uh, what they're thinking and how they feel
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about things. And the tendency then to want to
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step in and correct or teach can be really strong.
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Uh, so I think it's a really useful perspective.
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This listening posture becomes really useful
445
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because we have to remember that a lot of what
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teenagers are doing when they're talking is just
447
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working these ideas out. I had a teenager tell me
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once, like, I don't even know what I think or
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believe until I Say it out loud. Which is so wild
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to me. Um, but I started, I started seeing that
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then everywhere. Like, oh yeah, they're just
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working these ideas out and ah, I take a lot of
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comfort in this idea of like, I think back to the
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music I listened to or the people I hung around
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with, the, the, you know, the kinds of like what I
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thought I would be when I was going to grow up,
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when I was a teenager. All of it has changed.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: Uh, you know, so I think we get really, like. We
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know that change is the hallmark of youth and yet
461
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we, it's like we abandon that when we, when they
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start talking about issues of faith because. And
463
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they say something that isn't like in line with
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what we want. If we feel like, oh my gosh, we
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gotta step in right now because this is life and
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death. It is really important.
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>> Loren: Yeah.
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>> Josh Packard: But they're also likely to change. And so like
469
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what is more important? Correcting in this moment
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that will change or being in a relationship with
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them and accompanying them over the long haul and
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establishing that trust so that they keep coming
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back to you for the conversation. I would argue
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that the second one is more important.
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>> Loren: Well, let's talk about that because I'm thinking
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of this, um, just in my own life. This Thursday,
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I'm taking my daughter to the first, um,
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confirmation class at church. You talk about
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theological formation being less about filling
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their buckets, which what I would think, like
481
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that's certainly how I was raised. It's like, oh
482
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yeah, you gotta like
483
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>> Josh Packard: I memorized a bunch of stuff I don't remember now.
484
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>> Loren: Right. Even, even like me growing up Independent
485
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Baptist, there certainly wasn't formal
486
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confirmation, but it was like you had to believe
487
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the right things. Like that's what. Knowing the
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right things is what it meant to be a Christian.
489
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And at my church, and thinking back to uh, podcast
490
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I had with the youth director there, Mike Orr,
491
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like I think we talked about this but like, I mean
492
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one of the statements of faith from the. One of
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the confrance last year was like pretty like
494
00:22:35,620 --> 00:22:38,500
sloshy if that makes sense. Like it wasn't super
495
00:22:38,500 --> 00:22:42,660
like I believe X, Y and Z. And I was like, uh, you
496
00:22:42,660 --> 00:22:44,540
know, I was kind of like part of me, like as an
497
00:22:44,540 --> 00:22:47,500
old get off my lawn person was like, oh man, this
498
00:22:47,500 --> 00:22:49,760
is like this is in the church. And then I thought,
499
00:22:49,760 --> 00:22:52,920
well, this is great actually that like this, this
500
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:57,600
young person has space and it gets into this point
501
00:22:57,600 --> 00:23:00,840
you're talking about conversation partners, which
502
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,040
you know as like a. Someone who's invested my Life
503
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,520
in the church makes me really nervous, but I think
504
00:23:06,520 --> 00:23:08,440
like there's something to it. So why don't you
505
00:23:08,440 --> 00:23:09,320
talk more about that?
506
00:23:10,120 --> 00:23:14,600
>> Josh Packard: Okay, look, we are immersed in all things banned.
507
00:23:15,020 --> 00:23:17,740
My 15 year old is in every conceivable band that,
508
00:23:17,820 --> 00:23:20,940
you know, he could be in. He's on drumline, he's
509
00:23:20,940 --> 00:23:22,820
in a marching band, he's in concert band, he's in
510
00:23:22,820 --> 00:23:26,580
jazz band. Um, and I think he's great. I like
511
00:23:26,580 --> 00:23:28,380
going to the concerts, I think they're enjoyable.
512
00:23:29,160 --> 00:23:34,460
M But we don't go to high school band concerts
513
00:23:35,020 --> 00:23:38,800
because we think it's the highest form of jazz. M
514
00:23:38,800 --> 00:23:43,260
We go because we're interested in where our, where
515
00:23:43,260 --> 00:23:45,980
our kid and our friends kids are at musically. And
516
00:23:45,980 --> 00:23:48,280
you know, we want to support them on their journey
517
00:23:48,280 --> 00:23:49,720
to being whatever it is that they're going to be
518
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:50,280
musically.
519
00:23:50,380 --> 00:23:50,740
>> Loren: Mhm.
520
00:23:50,740 --> 00:23:52,480
>> Josh Packard: I don't know. Uh, that's the way we approach all
521
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:54,360
things with teenagers. I don't know why we flip
522
00:23:54,360 --> 00:23:57,320
that around. When they come, you know, when I
523
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:59,480
stand up and make these confirmation statements or
524
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:01,240
the statement of faith, or when they go through
525
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:05,000
confirmation class, it's like, you know, again, we
526
00:24:05,480 --> 00:24:07,560
all of a sudden we start treating it like, oh,
527
00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:09,160
this is the highest form of theology.
528
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:09,960
>> Loren: Yeah.
529
00:24:10,120 --> 00:24:12,640
>> Josh Packard: Like why, if we don't expect the highest form of
530
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,440
anything from 14 year olds, why would we start
531
00:24:15,440 --> 00:24:17,730
expecting it when they make these kinds of
532
00:24:17,730 --> 00:24:18,210
statements?
533
00:24:18,210 --> 00:24:18,570
>> Loren: Yeah.
534
00:24:18,570 --> 00:24:20,850
>> Josh Packard: And if we approach in the same way that we
535
00:24:20,850 --> 00:24:22,610
approach these band things like, oh, this is a
536
00:24:22,610 --> 00:24:25,730
really cool snap. This is an amazing snapshot of
537
00:24:25,730 --> 00:24:28,090
where you are right now. We don't think you're
538
00:24:28,090 --> 00:24:32,730
done. Like formation doesn't stop. Um, it's more
539
00:24:32,730 --> 00:24:37,010
like this is what you feel. Um, this is an
540
00:24:37,010 --> 00:24:39,970
announcement or a proclamation of either what
541
00:24:39,970 --> 00:24:42,050
you're saying you feel about your faith or what
542
00:24:42,050 --> 00:24:44,290
somebody else is, you know, accrediting you as
543
00:24:44,290 --> 00:24:45,450
saying, okay, they've been through confirmation
544
00:24:45,450 --> 00:24:46,050
and this is what.
545
00:24:46,050 --> 00:24:46,530
>> Loren: Yeah.
546
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,690
>> Josh Packard: Um, either way it's like, it becomes a way more
547
00:24:49,690 --> 00:24:52,010
interesting conversation and it becomes the way
548
00:24:52,010 --> 00:24:54,010
more interesting point of relationship if we think
549
00:24:54,010 --> 00:24:56,930
of it as like a signpost on the road as opposed to
550
00:24:56,930 --> 00:25:00,130
the destination. Um, and not only do I think it's
551
00:25:00,130 --> 00:25:02,490
more interesting and useful, but I think it's more
552
00:25:02,490 --> 00:25:03,010
accurate.
553
00:25:03,410 --> 00:25:05,170
>> Loren: Well, that gets into something else in your book.
554
00:25:05,170 --> 00:25:08,130
I want to ask about, about right answers not being
555
00:25:08,130 --> 00:25:11,210
the goal. But also I thought maybe I can find this
556
00:25:11,210 --> 00:25:16,970
quote that infinite choices is not like also the
557
00:25:20,010 --> 00:25:22,770
helpful either. You say, when young people live in
558
00:25:22,770 --> 00:25:25,129
a world of infinite choices, nothing is going to
559
00:25:25,129 --> 00:25:28,250
keep them from Exploring. Our job now is to show
560
00:25:28,250 --> 00:25:31,690
them how to navigate those choices, not to try and
561
00:25:31,690 --> 00:25:37,090
restrict them from making them. So, uh, because
562
00:25:37,250 --> 00:25:39,810
you can tell me if you disagree here, but this is.
563
00:25:39,810 --> 00:25:44,610
I think. I think one of the limitations of, like,
564
00:25:44,610 --> 00:25:46,730
progressive Christianity is, like, it seems to be
565
00:25:46,730 --> 00:25:50,250
like, oh, it's just all out there for you. So am
566
00:25:50,250 --> 00:25:51,970
I. Am I hearing you right here?
567
00:25:52,690 --> 00:25:54,410
>> Josh Packard: Well, I think when I, When I talk about infinite
568
00:25:54,410 --> 00:25:56,930
choices, I'm talking about. It's not a normative
569
00:25:56,930 --> 00:25:59,010
statement of saying there should be.
570
00:25:59,010 --> 00:25:59,570
>> Loren: Okay.
571
00:26:00,380 --> 00:26:01,580
>> Josh Packard: I think this is the reality.
572
00:26:01,660 --> 00:26:02,100
>> Loren: Yeah.
573
00:26:02,100 --> 00:26:03,740
>> Josh Packard: The reality of being on Instagram.
574
00:26:03,900 --> 00:26:04,260
>> Loren: Right.
575
00:26:04,260 --> 00:26:09,020
>> Josh Packard: Is that you have infinite choices. Right. And, um,
576
00:26:09,020 --> 00:26:14,660
I think trying to counter, uh, that with what is
577
00:26:14,660 --> 00:26:16,740
basically your own algorithm, when you give
578
00:26:16,740 --> 00:26:18,340
somebody a statement of faith and say you must
579
00:26:18,340 --> 00:26:20,460
agree to these things, you're essentially trying
580
00:26:20,460 --> 00:26:23,860
to wage a war of your algorithm against the
581
00:26:23,860 --> 00:26:26,860
Instagram algorithm. And you're going to lose that
582
00:26:26,860 --> 00:26:27,320
battle.
583
00:26:27,630 --> 00:26:27,990
>> Loren: Yes.
584
00:26:27,990 --> 00:26:30,780
>> Josh Packard: It's just not until somebody comes out with, uh,
585
00:26:30,780 --> 00:26:33,870
you know, like a denominationally, uh, approved
586
00:26:33,870 --> 00:26:36,230
social media network where you can only post the
587
00:26:36,230 --> 00:26:38,590
things that align. A, nobody's subscribing to
588
00:26:38,590 --> 00:26:43,470
that. And B, I think that's true social. Maybe.
589
00:26:44,140 --> 00:26:47,510
Um, you know, it's A. And so it's not. It's not to
590
00:26:47,510 --> 00:26:49,310
be. I'm not saying it's a better world.
591
00:26:49,470 --> 00:26:49,870
>> Loren: Right.
592
00:26:50,220 --> 00:26:53,270
>> Josh Packard: Um, we don't let our kid on social media. But I'm
593
00:26:53,270 --> 00:26:56,980
saying it's the world. And so that becomes like an
594
00:26:56,980 --> 00:27:01,300
imperative, uh, parenting. And I would say
595
00:27:01,300 --> 00:27:04,700
formation task for ministers is. What do you do
596
00:27:04,700 --> 00:27:07,660
with that if you're not equipping them to
597
00:27:07,660 --> 00:27:11,460
navigate. If your only answer to, um, encountering
598
00:27:11,540 --> 00:27:13,780
a world of infinite choices to turn it off.
599
00:27:13,860 --> 00:27:14,340
>> Loren: Yeah.
600
00:27:14,340 --> 00:27:16,380
>> Josh Packard: Then I think you're. You're just really not
601
00:27:16,380 --> 00:27:17,340
equipping them for the world.
602
00:27:17,340 --> 00:27:20,180
>> Loren: This sort of gets into Jonathan Haidt's work.
603
00:27:20,490 --> 00:27:20,810
>> Josh Packard: Yes.
604
00:27:20,970 --> 00:27:24,330
>> Loren: Which. That was sort of my, like,
605
00:27:26,090 --> 00:27:26,330
>> Josh Packard: I
606
00:27:26,330 --> 00:27:29,650
>> Loren: don't know what the word is. Like, I finished the
607
00:27:29,650 --> 00:27:31,810
book, like, wanting more because I feel like he
608
00:27:31,810 --> 00:27:35,570
was like, the takeaway, I feel like, is always
609
00:27:35,570 --> 00:27:39,970
like, restrict, uh, screen time and certainly all
610
00:27:39,970 --> 00:27:43,090
good things. But also there wasn't much around.
611
00:27:43,090 --> 00:27:46,820
Like, when I read it, I was like, man, I feel like
612
00:27:46,820 --> 00:27:48,580
there's just a huge hole. Like, I told my
613
00:27:48,580 --> 00:27:50,860
daughter, I'm like, uh, my middle school daughter,
614
00:27:50,860 --> 00:27:53,340
I'm like. Because she picked up the book and read
615
00:27:53,340 --> 00:27:55,780
the introduction when I had it sitting around, I'm
616
00:27:55,780 --> 00:27:57,780
like, to me, it's like people are just lacking.
617
00:27:58,100 --> 00:28:01,940
They're hungry for purpose and meaning and they're
618
00:28:02,340 --> 00:28:04,820
trying to Fill it with screen time and just
619
00:28:04,820 --> 00:28:06,780
saying, like, oh, let's cut off your screen time.
620
00:28:06,780 --> 00:28:09,300
Like, they're gonna find that somewhere else.
621
00:28:09,540 --> 00:28:12,540
>> Josh Packard: Yeah. I think it's wild that the same people who
622
00:28:12,540 --> 00:28:15,740
would say, you can't ban books will happily ban
623
00:28:15,740 --> 00:28:19,580
Instagram or Facebook or whatever. Interesting to
624
00:28:19,580 --> 00:28:22,060
me is just the most. It's the weirdest
625
00:28:22,060 --> 00:28:27,460
contradiction. I'm the person who says, like, of
626
00:28:27,460 --> 00:28:29,499
course there are books that shouldn't be in an
627
00:28:29,499 --> 00:28:32,060
elementary school library. I don't think the
628
00:28:32,060 --> 00:28:34,060
Catcher in the Rye should be read by third
629
00:28:34,060 --> 00:28:37,680
graders. Um, even if they wanted to, for, uh,
630
00:28:37,900 --> 00:28:41,740
example. Um, and I do not think that you should.
631
00:28:41,820 --> 00:28:44,740
Like, it would be, uh. I don't think it's
632
00:28:44,740 --> 00:28:46,940
criminal, but it would be ill advised to let
633
00:28:48,060 --> 00:28:50,660
preteens on social media. I mean, the research is
634
00:28:50,660 --> 00:28:53,020
really, really clear about the harmful nature of
635
00:28:53,020 --> 00:28:53,220
it.
636
00:28:53,220 --> 00:28:53,740
>> Loren: Yeah.
637
00:28:54,380 --> 00:28:56,820
>> Josh Packard: So for me, the question isn't do we allow it all
638
00:28:56,820 --> 00:28:58,900
or do we ban it all, or do we ban this thing or
639
00:28:58,900 --> 00:29:02,220
that thing? That's hardly ever helpful. Look, I
640
00:29:02,220 --> 00:29:05,020
wanted to listen to Dr. Dre's the Chronic so much,
641
00:29:05,340 --> 00:29:10,170
precisely because my parents hated it so much. Um,
642
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:13,160
and, you know, it's a question like, how do we
643
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:17,080
consume this? And at what ages for your kid is age
644
00:29:17,080 --> 00:29:19,080
appropriate. Right. And are you having
645
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:22,440
conversations? Like, we had this, um, talk in the
646
00:29:22,440 --> 00:29:24,520
book about this person who said, you know, you
647
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,000
adults, you're the only people who make this
648
00:29:26,000 --> 00:29:28,240
distinction between online life and in real life.
649
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:28,680
>> Loren: Yeah.
650
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:30,720
>> Josh Packard: She said, it's all just life to me.
651
00:29:30,720 --> 00:29:31,080
>> Loren: Yeah.
652
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:33,000
>> Josh Packard: So I go home with this information that says this
653
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:34,640
to me at a conference and kind of blew my mind.
654
00:29:34,640 --> 00:29:36,440
And I was like, you're right. Like, it's totally
655
00:29:36,970 --> 00:29:39,490
correct. Like, they make no distinction here. And
656
00:29:39,490 --> 00:29:41,490
I go home, and I'm talking to my son about this,
657
00:29:41,490 --> 00:29:43,690
and he was playing a lot of Minecraft at the time,
658
00:29:44,090 --> 00:29:48,250
and. And he goes downstairs to. To log into
659
00:29:48,250 --> 00:29:53,210
Minecraft, and I'm like, hey, um, you know, make
660
00:29:53,210 --> 00:29:55,370
sure I hope Minecraft is better today because
661
00:29:55,370 --> 00:29:57,650
you're there. And he stops. He's like, what? What
662
00:29:57,650 --> 00:29:59,090
does that mean? And I was like, I don't really
663
00:29:59,090 --> 00:30:00,850
know, dude. But I'm just trying to make sure that
664
00:30:00,850 --> 00:30:03,410
we're. You know, I realized what we had done is we
665
00:30:03,410 --> 00:30:06,680
had sort of given that world over to him, and. And
666
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,800
we weren't parenting him through it in the way
667
00:30:09,800 --> 00:30:12,080
that we parent him in other places. Like, we
668
00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:13,640
talked to him when he would play sports. We're
669
00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,160
like, look, God expects you to show up here on the
670
00:30:16,160 --> 00:30:18,120
field in the same way. That God expects you to
671
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:19,600
show up in other places. We talk about
672
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:21,720
sportsmanship and same thing at school. Make sure
673
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:23,640
your school is better today. Because if you're a
674
00:30:23,640 --> 00:30:25,240
Christian and that's what you say you want to be,
675
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:28,600
that should be a different experience for people
676
00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:31,840
around you. And so, uh, how he executes that is
677
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:34,770
largely up to him. But we thought, gosh, we better
678
00:30:34,770 --> 00:30:37,050
extend this over to the online space as well. And,
679
00:30:37,050 --> 00:30:39,290
you know, we. Some very simple things. Like we,
680
00:30:39,290 --> 00:30:41,050
you know, we'll sit down and watch. We'll go
681
00:30:41,050 --> 00:30:43,490
through his. We do let. He has YouTube, but no
682
00:30:43,490 --> 00:30:45,970
social, so we'll watch YouTube shorts together. I
683
00:30:45,970 --> 00:30:48,290
want to see how he's processing and thinking about
684
00:30:48,290 --> 00:30:51,730
this stuff. And, you know, I mean, it's some. I
685
00:30:51,730 --> 00:30:55,210
can't imagine why anybody would just like, let
686
00:30:55,210 --> 00:30:58,130
them unfettered into online spaces and not be
687
00:30:58,130 --> 00:31:00,790
having, uh, what does God want from you in the
688
00:31:00,790 --> 00:31:01,790
space conversation.
689
00:31:01,950 --> 00:31:04,590
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah, that's really interesting. I want to
690
00:31:04,590 --> 00:31:06,430
shift gears here a little bit, and I suppose it's
691
00:31:06,430 --> 00:31:08,470
still on track. I'm thinking of. I have an IKEA
692
00:31:08,470 --> 00:31:10,830
furniture right here. Yeah, you talk about the
693
00:31:10,830 --> 00:31:14,310
ikea, uh, effect. Explain that and then how you
694
00:31:14,310 --> 00:31:15,710
see that relevant here.
695
00:31:15,790 --> 00:31:18,230
>> Josh Packard: Okay, so the IKEA effect, I love this concept. So
696
00:31:18,230 --> 00:31:21,150
it's a bi. There's like these places in the social
697
00:31:21,150 --> 00:31:23,670
sciences, cognitive sciences, or like, that will
698
00:31:23,670 --> 00:31:25,800
list all these biases, these social biases that we
699
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:27,400
carry around, and sometimes these cognitive ones.
700
00:31:27,400 --> 00:31:29,200
And one of them is called the IKEA effect. And
701
00:31:29,200 --> 00:31:32,280
it's this idea that even if it's a piece of junk,
702
00:31:32,280 --> 00:31:34,280
which I'm not suggesting IKEA is, we have loads of
703
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:35,960
IKEA stuff, but even if it's
704
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:37,960
>> Loren: a piece of junk, I mean, it sort of sometimes is.
705
00:31:37,960 --> 00:31:39,320
>> Josh Packard: If you built it yourself.
706
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:39,680
>> Loren: Yeah.
707
00:31:39,680 --> 00:31:41,650
>> Josh Packard: You feel more pride over, uh.
708
00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,560
>> Loren: Yeah, that's why this. I have this IKEA furniture.
709
00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:46,880
I'm like, do we really want to get rid of that? I
710
00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:48,680
spent five hours assembling that.
711
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:53,140
>> Josh Packard: Yes. And the idea is that, like, having to
712
00:31:53,140 --> 00:31:55,740
assemble that is not actually a bug, it's a
713
00:31:55,740 --> 00:31:55,980
feature.
714
00:31:55,980 --> 00:31:56,260
>> Loren: Yeah.
715
00:31:56,260 --> 00:31:58,820
>> Josh Packard: Like, IKEA wants you to assemble it in some ways
716
00:31:58,820 --> 00:32:05,300
because you're prouder. Uh, even, you know, if
717
00:32:05,300 --> 00:32:07,060
it's a total pain in the butt, maybe. Especially
718
00:32:07,060 --> 00:32:10,180
if it's a total pain in the butt. Um, and so the
719
00:32:10,180 --> 00:32:11,860
bias says, like, you know, we shouldn't really
720
00:32:11,860 --> 00:32:15,740
value those things more. Like, it's. They're not
721
00:32:15,740 --> 00:32:17,780
really. That they're not better because you put it
722
00:32:17,780 --> 00:32:20,800
together. It's just. Is. But the reality is we do.
723
00:32:21,750 --> 00:32:25,270
Um, and so we will move these crummy, falling, uh,
724
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:27,800
apart IKEA bookshelves. And when I say we, I mean
725
00:32:27,800 --> 00:32:32,560
me from house to house, uh, because they sort of
726
00:32:32,560 --> 00:32:37,160
tell a story. So the relevance here is that, um, I
727
00:32:37,160 --> 00:32:40,040
think that very much applies to faith. That a
728
00:32:40,040 --> 00:32:43,840
faith that is handed to you, um, through a set of
729
00:32:43,840 --> 00:32:44,880
principles may be more certain.
730
00:32:45,230 --> 00:32:45,550
>> Loren: Yeah.
731
00:32:46,190 --> 00:32:48,630
>> Josh Packard: And this is where I was saying, uh, you know, I
732
00:32:48,630 --> 00:32:52,230
think drawing from my own camp experience, we
733
00:32:52,230 --> 00:32:54,350
could hand kids of faith in the course of a week.
734
00:32:54,350 --> 00:32:56,350
Like, we learned how to do that and it's
735
00:32:56,350 --> 00:32:59,630
effective, but I don't know how durable it is. And
736
00:32:59,630 --> 00:33:01,870
that was the really, the like, what I think about,
737
00:33:01,870 --> 00:33:05,510
like, what do I really hope for for teenagers? I
738
00:33:05,510 --> 00:33:07,190
hope that we are introducing them to a
739
00:33:07,190 --> 00:33:10,230
conversation about their own faith that they never
740
00:33:10,230 --> 00:33:12,500
let go of. Uh, you know, that they're always
741
00:33:12,500 --> 00:33:13,180
engaged in.
742
00:33:13,180 --> 00:33:13,580
>> Loren: Yeah.
743
00:33:13,580 --> 00:33:15,220
>> Josh Packard: Not that they get it right. I mean, I believe in
744
00:33:15,220 --> 00:33:16,900
God's grace and I believe in the Holy Spirit. And
745
00:33:16,900 --> 00:33:19,100
so like, getting it right is just actually not all
746
00:33:19,100 --> 00:33:21,420
that important to me as much as being in
747
00:33:21,420 --> 00:33:23,060
conversation with God for the rest of your life
748
00:33:23,060 --> 00:33:25,540
is. Farm takes far more precedence.
749
00:33:26,020 --> 00:33:28,940
>> Loren: So I'm thinking about, I was just reading in a
750
00:33:28,940 --> 00:33:33,940
book yesterday, this guy was talking about how in
751
00:33:33,940 --> 00:33:39,060
LDS faith, the two year mission is really
752
00:33:39,060 --> 00:33:42,540
formative in producing a lifelong faith. Like I
753
00:33:42,540 --> 00:33:45,540
think about this in my own life, my own. My wife
754
00:33:45,540 --> 00:33:49,260
and I were married very young. Like I was 21,
755
00:33:49,260 --> 00:33:53,500
almost 22. She was 20, like obviously worlds ago.
756
00:33:53,580 --> 00:33:54,060
>> Josh Packard: Yeah.
757
00:33:54,700 --> 00:33:58,620
>> Loren: But I think about like almost six months after we
758
00:33:58,620 --> 00:34:01,900
were married. Like we moved across the country for
759
00:34:01,900 --> 00:34:04,460
me to take a church job. And it wasn't a two year
760
00:34:04,970 --> 00:34:07,570
commitment, but we had to like sink or swim on our
761
00:34:07,570 --> 00:34:07,850
own.
762
00:34:07,850 --> 00:34:08,810
>> Josh Packard: Right. Very quickly.
763
00:34:08,810 --> 00:34:11,210
>> Loren: You know, there wasn't like mom and dad to like,
764
00:34:11,210 --> 00:34:13,770
go home to when we were having a fight with the
765
00:34:13,770 --> 00:34:16,250
other or whatever. So I'm just wondering, like,
766
00:34:16,810 --> 00:34:21,530
I'm thinking of, like sociologically, does that
767
00:34:21,530 --> 00:34:24,930
track then, like with this IKEA effect idea, like
768
00:34:24,930 --> 00:34:29,010
the, the LDS mission, Like, how might that. What
769
00:34:29,010 --> 00:34:32,010
are some other ideas or implementations of that
770
00:34:32,250 --> 00:34:32,650
effect?
771
00:34:33,450 --> 00:34:38,010
>> Josh Packard: Well, I think a lot of what, um, there's a lot of
772
00:34:38,010 --> 00:34:40,690
helpful lessons from the two year mission, and not
773
00:34:40,690 --> 00:34:43,290
the least of which is that it removes young people
774
00:34:44,330 --> 00:34:47,130
from a world of temptation precisely at this
775
00:34:47,130 --> 00:34:48,890
developmental stages when they're most likely to
776
00:34:48,890 --> 00:34:50,930
give in to those temptations. I think that's
777
00:34:50,930 --> 00:34:54,010
genius. Like, right in those college years when
778
00:34:54,090 --> 00:34:56,370
you may be drifting away and you're encountering a
779
00:34:56,370 --> 00:34:58,010
whole lot of new ideas and perspectives, they're
780
00:34:58,010 --> 00:34:59,450
like, oh, hold on, let's pause.
781
00:35:00,050 --> 00:35:00,100
>> Loren: Yeah.
782
00:35:00,100 --> 00:35:01,890
>> Josh Packard: Uh, you know, I think about what I was doing
783
00:35:01,890 --> 00:35:04,090
during those two years, and I'm not sure it was
784
00:35:04,090 --> 00:35:06,170
necessarily moving me closer to my faith. It may
785
00:35:06,170 --> 00:35:10,330
have been taking me further away. Um, but, but
786
00:35:10,330 --> 00:35:12,130
again, we come back to this idea of like, what's
787
00:35:12,130 --> 00:35:13,010
age appropriate?
788
00:35:13,090 --> 00:35:13,530
>> Loren: Yeah.
789
00:35:13,530 --> 00:35:16,050
>> Josh Packard: So it isn't throwing the training wheels off on a
790
00:35:16,050 --> 00:35:18,210
bike that you've never been on before. Instead,
791
00:35:18,370 --> 00:35:23,040
it's like, you know, you're gradually, um, um,
792
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,210
putting them into more and more context of more
793
00:35:25,210 --> 00:35:28,660
and more freedom. And, and that's what, uh, I
794
00:35:28,660 --> 00:35:30,820
think about driving. My son is about to drive
795
00:35:30,820 --> 00:35:33,700
when. I don't know how this was for you when I
796
00:35:33,700 --> 00:35:36,620
turned 16. They're like, Here's a license and all
797
00:35:36,620 --> 00:35:39,020
the rights and privileges of everybody who's, you
798
00:35:39,020 --> 00:35:40,900
know, ever been driving. You know, people who've
799
00:35:40,900 --> 00:35:43,060
been driving for 20 years, you can now do all the
800
00:35:43,060 --> 00:35:45,660
same things they can do. That was insane. Right?
801
00:35:45,660 --> 00:35:48,420
Like, that made no sense as a driver.
802
00:35:48,420 --> 00:35:50,660
>> Loren: Now I'm like, no, yes, exactly. Good idea.
803
00:35:50,660 --> 00:35:53,910
>> Josh Packard: Um, but now we've learned, we've learned so much
804
00:35:53,910 --> 00:35:57,350
and so we don't do that. Like, of course I had
805
00:35:57,350 --> 00:36:00,350
driver training just like my son does now, but his
806
00:36:00,350 --> 00:36:03,230
first six months he can only drive himself and
807
00:36:03,230 --> 00:36:05,430
then he can drive one other person for a period of
808
00:36:05,430 --> 00:36:07,790
time. Yeah. There's like this graduated approach
809
00:36:08,510 --> 00:36:11,750
where we like slowly build them up to the
810
00:36:11,750 --> 00:36:14,310
experience of, you know, first you're driving for
811
00:36:14,310 --> 00:36:16,190
a year of training with your parents or another
812
00:36:16,190 --> 00:36:19,050
adult, and then you get like six months of just
813
00:36:19,050 --> 00:36:21,410
you driving alone and then you can let one other,
814
00:36:21,410 --> 00:36:24,330
you know, uh, let's think about faith that way.
815
00:36:24,330 --> 00:36:26,850
Right. Like, how do we get to a point where you're
816
00:36:26,850 --> 00:36:29,530
truly on your own? Well, it's, it's not by just
817
00:36:29,530 --> 00:36:31,090
tossing, you know, somebody who doesn't know how
818
00:36:31,090 --> 00:36:32,890
to swim into the deep end. I love that about the
819
00:36:32,890 --> 00:36:35,570
mission, but that's my point. It isn't just being
820
00:36:35,570 --> 00:36:36,810
thrown into the deep end. It's.
821
00:36:36,810 --> 00:36:36,900
>> Loren: Yeah.
822
00:36:36,900 --> 00:36:40,250
>> Josh Packard: Um, it's just the next logical step of seminary
823
00:36:40,250 --> 00:36:41,810
classes in the morning and a family that's
824
00:36:41,810 --> 00:36:44,130
immersed in faith and going to a college that is
825
00:36:44,130 --> 00:36:44,650
aligned.
826
00:36:44,810 --> 00:36:46,570
>> Loren: And this is, I feel like the problem in
827
00:36:47,050 --> 00:36:50,810
evangelical culture is especially in conserved.
828
00:36:50,970 --> 00:36:54,850
It's like you get this, like. I don't know how to
829
00:36:54,850 --> 00:36:58,530
say it, not derogatively, but, you know, they're
830
00:36:58,530 --> 00:37:00,810
sort of like Sunday school approach to faith.
831
00:37:00,970 --> 00:37:03,410
Like, I want like my 8 year old to learn these
832
00:37:03,410 --> 00:37:06,650
Bible stories, but then I'm not sure how many
833
00:37:06,650 --> 00:37:09,490
contexts that like, it becomes age appropriate of,
834
00:37:09,490 --> 00:37:12,090
like, oh, are there questions, do we have
835
00:37:12,090 --> 00:37:16,530
questions about, uh, the text or these stories or
836
00:37:17,170 --> 00:37:17,730
theology?
837
00:37:17,970 --> 00:37:21,890
>> Josh Packard: Sure. Well, I think that, uh, you have to really
838
00:37:21,890 --> 00:37:24,810
look at the theological underpinnings behind those
839
00:37:24,810 --> 00:37:28,330
positions. Um, and so this is where I'll sort of
840
00:37:28,330 --> 00:37:31,330
rebalance the scales here and say, I think from an
841
00:37:31,330 --> 00:37:33,050
evangelical perspective, I understand that
842
00:37:33,050 --> 00:37:35,890
theologically what the mission is to do is to win
843
00:37:35,890 --> 00:37:36,610
souls for Christ.
844
00:37:36,610 --> 00:37:37,010
>> Loren: Right.
845
00:37:37,340 --> 00:37:40,820
>> Josh Packard: And you know, the commitment of baptism is that
846
00:37:40,820 --> 00:37:42,460
once done cannot be undone.
847
00:37:42,540 --> 00:37:42,940
>> Loren: Right.
848
00:37:43,100 --> 00:37:46,300
>> Josh Packard: So it would be understandable if there was less
849
00:37:46,300 --> 00:37:48,460
focus on what happens past that point.
850
00:37:48,540 --> 00:37:48,940
>> Loren: Right.
851
00:37:49,460 --> 00:37:52,660
>> Josh Packard: Um, I don't, again, like, I don't think that
852
00:37:52,660 --> 00:37:54,900
that's the best way to equip people for a
853
00:37:54,900 --> 00:37:56,860
fulfilling life in Christ. I think that there's
854
00:37:56,860 --> 00:37:58,660
more, I think paying more, a little bit more
855
00:37:58,660 --> 00:38:01,700
attention to that side of the, um, timeline would
856
00:38:01,700 --> 00:38:04,230
be helpful. But I understand it. I mean, what I'm
857
00:38:04,230 --> 00:38:05,990
saying is like, I don't think it's inconsistent
858
00:38:05,990 --> 00:38:07,190
with theology.
859
00:38:07,430 --> 00:38:10,190
>> Loren: Well, and I, I think it, I think it's not
860
00:38:10,190 --> 00:38:12,470
inconsistent, like you said. But I'm also thinking
861
00:38:12,470 --> 00:38:16,550
like Ryan Burgess, forget one of his, his past
862
00:38:16,550 --> 00:38:19,390
book about like, you know, that having a
863
00:38:19,390 --> 00:38:21,230
profession of faith doesn't really make you any
864
00:38:21,230 --> 00:38:26,430
more likely to attend church otherwise. So I think
865
00:38:26,430 --> 00:38:28,390
if anything, like, hey, if we, if we want people
866
00:38:28,390 --> 00:38:30,960
to be involved in church, like lifelong, we want
867
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,160
to make a lifetime, uh, profession or commitment
868
00:38:34,160 --> 00:38:36,640
to faith, which certainly I want for my kids.
869
00:38:36,640 --> 00:38:39,200
Like, trust me, like, I have a lot of angst
870
00:38:39,200 --> 00:38:42,760
writing in this confirmation. Uh, like, I'm like,
871
00:38:42,760 --> 00:38:46,360
I want my kids, I want my daughter to, you know, I
872
00:38:46,360 --> 00:38:48,960
want her to see, to make a profession of faith.
873
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:51,840
You know, I want them to be baptized. And like, I
874
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:53,960
have a lot of angst about that. Trust me, if I
875
00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:55,360
have a lot of angst, you can guarantee my
876
00:38:55,360 --> 00:38:58,640
grandparents, my parents and my in laws have a lot
877
00:38:58,640 --> 00:38:59,360
more angst.
878
00:39:01,510 --> 00:39:02,230
>> Josh Packard: Yeah, for sure.
879
00:39:03,400 --> 00:39:05,430
>> Loren: Uh, not where I'm sure I'm going with that.
880
00:39:06,550 --> 00:39:08,630
Anything, um, else you want to say on this topic
881
00:39:08,630 --> 00:39:10,710
before I transition us? I suppose.
882
00:39:11,430 --> 00:39:14,710
>> Josh Packard: No, I mean, I just, again, like, I'll just
883
00:39:14,710 --> 00:39:17,470
reinforce that. The idea is that, uh, you said it,
884
00:39:17,470 --> 00:39:20,110
you said, you know, what we want is blah, blah.
885
00:39:20,110 --> 00:39:22,710
And I'm like, well, let's be sure. But not
886
00:39:22,710 --> 00:39:25,030
everybody wants the same thing. And I think
887
00:39:25,030 --> 00:39:27,710
sometimes we design systems that don't necessarily
888
00:39:27,710 --> 00:39:29,950
get us to the places that we want. My commitment
889
00:39:29,950 --> 00:39:32,710
is like, I want people in, I want my own son. I
890
00:39:32,710 --> 00:39:35,710
want other people to know that and have that
891
00:39:35,710 --> 00:39:37,390
experience of A God who cares about them through
892
00:39:37,390 --> 00:39:38,790
the course of their entire lives. But again,
893
00:39:38,790 --> 00:39:39,870
that's not everybody's theology.
894
00:39:39,870 --> 00:39:42,790
>> Loren: Yeah. Yeah. Two, uh, quick things here before we
895
00:39:42,950 --> 00:39:45,950
do some closing questions. One of the things I
896
00:39:45,950 --> 00:39:49,270
appreciate, as someone who's obviously invested in
897
00:39:49,270 --> 00:39:51,710
the church, really appreciates sacred space. You
898
00:39:51,710 --> 00:39:54,150
talk about the importance of communal worship and
899
00:39:54,150 --> 00:39:56,200
sacred space. Talk more about that.
900
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:00,920
>> Josh Packard: Look, it's a. The loneliness epidemic is well
901
00:40:00,920 --> 00:40:05,240
documented. Um, there is. Christianity especially
902
00:40:05,400 --> 00:40:11,320
is a communal expression. Um, it is not. I'm not a
903
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:13,840
theologian, but I do not see. I've not read a
904
00:40:13,840 --> 00:40:18,840
defense or seen much that suggests that at a broad
905
00:40:18,840 --> 00:40:21,680
effort, aside from some hermits and people who
906
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:23,320
have really committed themselves to this monastic
907
00:40:23,320 --> 00:40:25,160
life, that it's intended to be alone.
908
00:40:25,460 --> 00:40:25,780
>> Loren: Yeah.
909
00:40:25,780 --> 00:40:29,500
>> Josh Packard: Um, yeah. And I think that that, that reality, um,
910
00:40:29,500 --> 00:40:31,340
that theological position meets this modern
911
00:40:31,340 --> 00:40:34,380
reality where also young people especially need to
912
00:40:34,380 --> 00:40:35,060
not be alone.
913
00:40:35,220 --> 00:40:35,760
>> Loren: Yeah.
914
00:40:35,760 --> 00:40:39,460
>> Josh Packard: Um, and it's. Their online relationships are real
915
00:40:39,620 --> 00:40:43,620
and they are important. Um, and adults need to
916
00:40:43,620 --> 00:40:44,740
wrap their heads around that.
917
00:40:44,980 --> 00:40:45,420
>> Loren: Yeah.
918
00:40:45,420 --> 00:40:46,340
>> Josh Packard: And they're not enough.
919
00:40:46,580 --> 00:40:47,100
>> Loren: Yeah.
920
00:40:47,100 --> 00:40:48,060
>> Josh Packard: And that is also true.
921
00:40:48,060 --> 00:40:49,780
>> Loren: Maybe that's the way of saying, like, it's not
922
00:40:49,780 --> 00:40:50,100
enough.
923
00:40:50,180 --> 00:40:53,460
>> Josh Packard: It is not. It is a. It is a critical component of
924
00:40:53,460 --> 00:40:57,490
their social reality, but it is also critical that
925
00:40:57,490 --> 00:40:59,690
they are together in person and they need more
926
00:40:59,690 --> 00:41:01,690
spaces where they can do that. M. And I think
927
00:41:01,690 --> 00:41:07,660
worship is one of those ideally situated, um,
928
00:41:07,660 --> 00:41:11,410
moments of giving yourself over to this period of
929
00:41:11,410 --> 00:41:13,570
time and to this space and to these people.
930
00:41:13,820 --> 00:41:18,010
>> Loren: Mhm. The last thing here regarding the book, you
931
00:41:18,010 --> 00:41:20,490
talk about the rise of the micro narrative as
932
00:41:20,490 --> 00:41:25,170
opposed to, if I remember, you contrast it versus
933
00:41:25,170 --> 00:41:25,930
the meta narrative.
934
00:41:25,930 --> 00:41:29,370
>> Josh Packard: You want to get nerdy for a second? So I was a lit
935
00:41:29,370 --> 00:41:33,570
major, uh, and we talked a lot in the late 90s
936
00:41:33,570 --> 00:41:37,450
about this postmodernism. Postmodernism can be the
937
00:41:37,450 --> 00:41:39,210
death of the meta narrative. That it's going to
938
00:41:39,610 --> 00:41:41,970
things like the American Dream or Christianity's
939
00:41:41,970 --> 00:41:47,250
big overarching, um, like what uh, sociologists
940
00:41:47,250 --> 00:41:50,010
would call the sort of sacred canopy. Um, we're
941
00:41:50,010 --> 00:41:53,290
going to go away, uh, essentially and the world is
942
00:41:53,290 --> 00:41:55,330
going to be fractured into a thousand pieces. And
943
00:41:55,330 --> 00:41:58,010
Robert Bella wrote about Sheila ism in the 1980s
944
00:41:58,010 --> 00:42:00,930
where every individual had their own, you know,
945
00:42:00,930 --> 00:42:02,210
unique faith. Sheila.
946
00:42:02,210 --> 00:42:05,290
>> Loren: Sheila. Yeah. Um, I mean that gets into Christian
947
00:42:05,290 --> 00:42:07,409
Smith's mtd, Right?
948
00:42:07,409 --> 00:42:11,130
>> Josh Packard: Moralistic, therapeutic deism. M. Yeah. Um, I
949
00:42:11,130 --> 00:42:13,050
don't think that's true. Like, I don't think that.
950
00:42:13,130 --> 00:42:15,370
I don't think the world has played out that way.
951
00:42:15,530 --> 00:42:19,340
When I take a. So I think it's. I think that Plays
952
00:42:19,340 --> 00:42:21,500
into those biases around that we were talking
953
00:42:21,500 --> 00:42:22,740
about at the beginning of this conversation
954
00:42:22,740 --> 00:42:28,380
around, like, this generation is narcissistic or
955
00:42:28,380 --> 00:42:29,380
lazy or what have you.
956
00:42:29,380 --> 00:42:29,780
>> Loren: Sure.
957
00:42:30,420 --> 00:42:32,900
>> Josh Packard: When I take a sober look at, ah, what I see
958
00:42:32,900 --> 00:42:37,540
teenagers actually doing, um, in a lot of cases,
959
00:42:38,100 --> 00:42:41,020
what appears at a cursory look to be like they're
960
00:42:41,020 --> 00:42:46,910
picking and choosing is. I call these micro
961
00:42:46,910 --> 00:42:48,750
narrative approaches, which means that they're not
962
00:42:48,990 --> 00:42:53,550
rejecting the idea of a narrative, um, which is
963
00:42:53,550 --> 00:42:56,460
what the death of the metanarrative suggested. Um,
964
00:42:56,460 --> 00:42:57,950
and that everything was gonna be fragmented. I
965
00:42:57,950 --> 00:43:00,070
think they still long for something that stitches
966
00:43:00,070 --> 00:43:02,430
all this together. It's just that they're no
967
00:43:02,430 --> 00:43:05,390
longer looking for institutions to provide that
968
00:43:05,390 --> 00:43:09,150
narrative for them. Instead, they're trying to
969
00:43:09,150 --> 00:43:13,550
create that narrative through this pathway,
970
00:43:13,550 --> 00:43:15,490
through those instit. Because they don't trust any
971
00:43:15,490 --> 00:43:19,100
of them enough to sign wholesale. You know, um,
972
00:43:19,100 --> 00:43:21,490
yeah, I had somebody. And of course not this
973
00:43:21,490 --> 00:43:23,130
project, but a different one, say, like, how am I
974
00:43:23,130 --> 00:43:25,090
supposed to. How am I supposed to check a box to
975
00:43:25,090 --> 00:43:28,050
say that I'm Catholic when the church has
976
00:43:28,050 --> 00:43:30,130
consistently gotten it wrong about women? They're
977
00:43:30,130 --> 00:43:32,290
getting it wrong about gay people right now. They
978
00:43:32,290 --> 00:43:34,740
failed to cut, you know, they failed to hold, um,
979
00:43:34,740 --> 00:43:37,850
pedophiles to, uh, account and da, da, da. I can't
980
00:43:37,850 --> 00:43:40,210
co. Sign. Right. I can't check that box. But I
981
00:43:40,210 --> 00:43:42,090
like a lot of the things in Catholicism. I like
982
00:43:42,090 --> 00:43:44,370
the theology there. It's just, I'm not going to
983
00:43:44,370 --> 00:43:47,820
affiliate or identify with the institution. So on.
984
00:43:47,820 --> 00:43:50,460
What I mean by micro narratives is not. It's not,
985
00:43:50,460 --> 00:43:52,500
again, not a normative statement. I don't. I'm not
986
00:43:52,500 --> 00:43:55,020
arguing that this is good or bad, but what I see
987
00:43:55,500 --> 00:43:57,900
is that young people are trying to figure out a
988
00:43:57,900 --> 00:44:00,540
pathway through their life with integrity, where
989
00:44:00,540 --> 00:44:02,700
they can, say, care about the environment and
990
00:44:02,700 --> 00:44:04,700
order a bunch of stuff on Amazon that gets
991
00:44:04,700 --> 00:44:06,540
delivered in all these cardboard boxes. Right.
992
00:44:06,620 --> 00:44:10,260
Like, how can I, you know, be a part of this
993
00:44:10,260 --> 00:44:12,420
campus ministry where I get to, you know, I have
994
00:44:12,420 --> 00:44:14,420
these important relationships and I get to ask
995
00:44:14,420 --> 00:44:16,940
and. And have conversations about the most
996
00:44:17,180 --> 00:44:19,980
fundamental questions in the world and also
997
00:44:20,380 --> 00:44:24,300
participate in, you know, the coexist LGBTQ club
998
00:44:24,380 --> 00:44:28,900
and be friends and, like, support all my friends
999
00:44:28,900 --> 00:44:32,100
who are, um, lesbian, gay, transgender, what have
1000
00:44:32,100 --> 00:44:35,300
you? Um, how do I manage all of these conflicting
1001
00:44:35,300 --> 00:44:37,620
things? Because I'm not gonna. I'm not gonna just
1002
00:44:37,620 --> 00:44:38,660
sign up for one or the other.
1003
00:44:38,660 --> 00:44:39,020
>> Loren: Right.
1004
00:44:39,340 --> 00:44:41,300
>> Josh Packard: But I'm also not willing to live a life that
1005
00:44:41,300 --> 00:44:41,860
doesn't make sense.
1006
00:44:42,250 --> 00:44:42,570
>> Loren: Yeah.
1007
00:44:42,970 --> 00:44:44,690
>> Josh Packard: The death of the meta narrative was sort of this
1008
00:44:44,690 --> 00:44:46,970
idea that we would all get very comfortable living
1009
00:44:46,970 --> 00:44:49,210
in these fractured environments. I just have not
1010
00:44:49,210 --> 00:44:51,050
seen that. I mean, yeah, I think young people are
1011
00:44:51,050 --> 00:44:53,050
still trying to figure out a way to make their
1012
00:44:53,050 --> 00:44:55,730
life make sense. And, and that's what I mean by
1013
00:44:55,730 --> 00:44:57,570
they're constructing these micro narratives
1014
00:44:57,570 --> 00:44:59,610
because it's not gonna look the same for each, you
1015
00:44:59,610 --> 00:45:00,890
know, from kid to kid to kid.
1016
00:45:01,290 --> 00:45:04,890
>> Loren: So rather than this top down, like this is, I
1017
00:45:04,890 --> 00:45:08,090
mean, and to, since we've talked about formation,
1018
00:45:08,090 --> 00:45:09,770
like this is what essentially formation,
1019
00:45:10,350 --> 00:45:13,390
traditionally formation confirmation, same thing,
1020
00:45:13,390 --> 00:45:16,550
right? Formation is, is like, uh, I'm going to be
1021
00:45:16,550 --> 00:45:21,110
a top down. This is, this is the truth. And if I'm
1022
00:45:21,110 --> 00:45:23,230
hearing you right, you're saying like, it's not
1023
00:45:23,230 --> 00:45:26,309
that they're not going to take some elements of
1024
00:45:26,309 --> 00:45:30,790
that or most elements of that, but they're. I
1025
00:45:30,790 --> 00:45:33,830
don't know, I'm still getting in my head, I guess.
1026
00:45:33,830 --> 00:45:35,990
>> Josh Packard: Well, I think that it's useful to have this. I
1027
00:45:35,990 --> 00:45:38,110
mean, it's like the church. I'm not suggesting
1028
00:45:38,110 --> 00:45:39,990
that the church is trying to find its way through.
1029
00:45:39,990 --> 00:45:42,310
The church knows the church has a Medinarian,
1030
00:45:42,390 --> 00:45:42,790
right?
1031
00:45:43,190 --> 00:45:44,030
>> Loren: I mean, I hope so.
1032
00:45:44,030 --> 00:45:48,630
>> Josh Packard: Yeah, it should. Um, uh, I'm just saying that as,
1033
00:45:49,110 --> 00:45:51,310
as teenagers are trying to figure out who they
1034
00:45:51,310 --> 00:45:53,950
are, that, that they are not. I mean, I think the
1035
00:45:53,950 --> 00:45:55,550
evidence is really clear. They are not just gonna
1036
00:45:55,550 --> 00:45:57,150
check. They're not gonna just like, oh, cool,
1037
00:45:57,150 --> 00:45:58,670
thank you. I've been waiting for somebody to tell
1038
00:45:58,670 --> 00:46:00,710
me what to do. Yeah, try telling a teenager what
1039
00:46:00,710 --> 00:46:06,250
to do and see how far it gets you. Um, and so to
1040
00:46:06,250 --> 00:46:09,810
match the reality, there is not to say, uh, you
1041
00:46:09,810 --> 00:46:11,610
can pick whatever part of this you like today and
1042
00:46:11,610 --> 00:46:15,170
change tomorrow. To match the reality is to say,
1043
00:46:15,170 --> 00:46:17,010
look, this is where this comes from. This is why I
1044
00:46:17,010 --> 00:46:19,290
believe it. This is why we feel so compelled by
1045
00:46:19,290 --> 00:46:22,170
this charism or by this statement of beliefs or by
1046
00:46:22,170 --> 00:46:27,610
this creed. Um, uh, this is not an opportunity for
1047
00:46:27,610 --> 00:46:30,560
you to, you know, sort of like combine the
1048
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,000
Apostles Creed with the Tarot reading, you know,
1049
00:46:34,000 --> 00:46:37,680
with the Jewish Shabbat. Like, this is not what
1050
00:46:37,680 --> 00:46:38,320
we're doing here.
1051
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:38,810
>> Loren: Okay.
1052
00:46:38,810 --> 00:46:43,240
>> Josh Packard: Um, you need to respect and honor the traditions,
1053
00:46:43,240 --> 00:46:44,640
but you can't do that if you don't know what they
1054
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,480
are. So this class is really about teaching you
1055
00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:51,400
where this comes from. Who asked what questions to
1056
00:46:51,400 --> 00:46:53,960
get us to this point, um, so that you can have
1057
00:46:53,960 --> 00:46:55,440
some working understanding of how to incorporate
1058
00:46:55,440 --> 00:46:56,110
it into your life.
1059
00:46:56,260 --> 00:46:59,260
>> Loren: And I feel like we're running along here. This is
1060
00:46:59,260 --> 00:47:01,820
where I think. Tell me what you think about this.
1061
00:47:01,820 --> 00:47:06,340
This is where I think, like Denominationalism is
1062
00:47:06,340 --> 00:47:08,580
really well suited to this. And I always wonder,
1063
00:47:08,580 --> 00:47:11,340
like, how can denominations and traditions do a
1064
00:47:11,340 --> 00:47:13,940
better job? Because, like, I always think, like,
1065
00:47:13,940 --> 00:47:15,540
well, they've been thinking about these questions
1066
00:47:15,540 --> 00:47:17,060
for so long.
1067
00:47:17,060 --> 00:47:21,540
>> Josh Packard: Yes, I agree. And I, I mean, I don't. I'm. I'm.
1068
00:47:21,540 --> 00:47:23,140
I'm not of the mind that denominations are going
1069
00:47:23,140 --> 00:47:25,020
to present. Their reality is like, well, here's
1070
00:47:25,020 --> 00:47:26,100
one truth among many.
1071
00:47:26,180 --> 00:47:26,540
>> Loren: Right.
1072
00:47:26,540 --> 00:47:29,160
>> Josh Packard: But I do think we can do a. Of saying, like, you
1073
00:47:29,160 --> 00:47:31,120
know, here's how this came to be.
1074
00:47:31,200 --> 00:47:37,240
>> Loren: Yeah. Um, do you think. Do you think, broadly
1075
00:47:37,240 --> 00:47:40,320
speaking, this is a broad brush? Big time. I feel
1076
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:42,200
like American Christianity is kind of, at least a
1077
00:47:42,200 --> 00:47:43,880
white American Christianity has kind of broken
1078
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:47,440
into these, like, liberal and conservative,
1079
00:47:47,440 --> 00:47:50,480
evangelical. I've wondered, like, does. Does
1080
00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:52,320
American Christianity almost need to be, like,
1081
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:54,560
Would be better off, like, re. Emphasizing our
1082
00:47:54,920 --> 00:47:55,720
uniquenesses?
1083
00:47:56,440 --> 00:47:58,480
>> Josh Packard: Oh, it's an interesting thought. I haven't. I have
1084
00:47:58,480 --> 00:48:01,840
not. I have not thought about that. Uh, I'm not
1085
00:48:01,840 --> 00:48:05,400
even sure I would be the right person. I just.
1086
00:48:05,720 --> 00:48:08,080
Sociology does so, like, gives us such good
1087
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:12,080
perspective. I don't know that it's very good at
1088
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:13,320
telling us what we should do.
1089
00:48:13,480 --> 00:48:14,040
>> Loren: Fair enough.
1090
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:17,680
>> Josh Packard: And it's just a, uh. So, like, that would cause
1091
00:48:17,680 --> 00:48:19,320
me. I would have to think hard about that because
1092
00:48:19,320 --> 00:48:22,080
it would take me outside of, like, my default
1093
00:48:22,080 --> 00:48:22,600
skill set.
1094
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,680
>> Loren: Yeah. Okay, well, hey, I. I got you a hump. So I
1095
00:48:25,680 --> 00:48:25,880
feel like.
1096
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:28,360
>> Josh Packard: There you go. Yeah, no, I'm gonna. I'll be
1097
00:48:28,360 --> 00:48:29,200
thinking about on the drive.
1098
00:48:30,720 --> 00:48:34,670
>> Loren: Okay, let's move on to closing questions here. Um,
1099
00:48:34,670 --> 00:48:38,160
if you're a Pope for a day, what do you want to do
1100
00:48:38,160 --> 00:48:40,880
with that day? Anything you do. Any kind of, like,
1101
00:48:41,040 --> 00:48:43,360
broad sociological thing you'd want to study?
1102
00:48:45,210 --> 00:48:48,290
>> Josh Packard: Um, well, look, I love what Francis was doing with
1103
00:48:48,290 --> 00:48:52,010
synodality, and I'm hopeful that that continues.
1104
00:48:52,250 --> 00:48:55,770
Um, so if I was Pope for a day, this Catholic
1105
00:48:56,970 --> 00:49:00,970
focus, uh, on, um, the church becoming a more
1106
00:49:00,970 --> 00:49:03,490
listening synodal church, is what that means for
1107
00:49:03,490 --> 00:49:05,770
your audience that is not super familiar with the
1108
00:49:05,770 --> 00:49:08,090
Catholic world. Um, basically, it's just a tent by
1109
00:49:08,090 --> 00:49:09,570
the Catholic Church to start listening to the rank
1110
00:49:09,570 --> 00:49:12,840
and file. And that's what, you know, even if we're
1111
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:14,840
extending Pope beyond Catholic, like, if we're
1112
00:49:14,840 --> 00:49:15,800
just using it as a metaphor.
1113
00:49:15,880 --> 00:49:17,800
>> Loren: Yes, it is meant to be a metaphor. So thank you
1114
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:18,040
for.
1115
00:49:18,120 --> 00:49:20,760
>> Josh Packard: I would pick up that very particular straight. I
1116
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:24,200
mean, I really think that, um, if we could be more
1117
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,760
curious, more listening, more structurally
1118
00:49:26,760 --> 00:49:30,200
oriented towards process over outcome.
1119
00:49:30,680 --> 00:49:31,160
>> Loren: Yeah.
1120
00:49:31,160 --> 00:49:32,920
>> Josh Packard: I actually think that we would find more of the
1121
00:49:32,920 --> 00:49:33,800
outcomes that we Want.
1122
00:49:35,000 --> 00:49:39,420
>> Loren: That's good. A, uh, theologian. So I feel like
1123
00:49:39,420 --> 00:49:41,380
since I'm. You're a sociologist, maybe I should
1124
00:49:41,540 --> 00:49:44,580
broaden this conversation. Like, I usually say
1125
00:49:44,580 --> 00:49:46,700
theologian or historical Christian figure. Is
1126
00:49:46,700 --> 00:49:50,140
there, like, a historical sociologist? Historical
1127
00:49:50,140 --> 00:49:52,900
sociologist you'd want me to bring back to life?
1128
00:49:53,050 --> 00:49:54,420
>> Josh Packard: Um, okay. Let's go.
1129
00:49:55,510 --> 00:49:58,660
>> Loren: Uh, if you want to say, like, the Apostle Paul,
1130
00:49:58,660 --> 00:49:59,460
that's fine, too.
1131
00:50:00,500 --> 00:50:03,540
>> Josh Packard: No, I'm okay. So I'm. I'm actually going on a trip
1132
00:50:03,540 --> 00:50:05,600
with Andy Root. I see his. You've got some of his
1133
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:07,960
books there. But Andy is running a sort of
1134
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:12,850
pilgrimage lesson, um, experience to, um,
1135
00:50:12,850 --> 00:50:16,880
Bonhoeffer's house, uh, in Germany this fall. And
1136
00:50:16,880 --> 00:50:18,640
I'm really excited to go there. So Bonhoeffer
1137
00:50:18,640 --> 00:50:22,640
would be very, um, high up on that list for me,
1138
00:50:22,640 --> 00:50:25,400
and I'm excited to get to dig in and learn more.
1139
00:50:25,640 --> 00:50:28,760
>> Loren: That's cool. That's cool. Yeah. Um, talking to,
1140
00:50:29,850 --> 00:50:33,200
uh, Kara Root Friday as we're recording this for
1141
00:50:33,600 --> 00:50:37,360
the book. So, um, what do you think history will
1142
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:39,120
remember from our current time and place?
1143
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:43,200
>> Josh Packard: Well, this is a lot of recency bias. I mean, if
1144
00:50:43,200 --> 00:50:45,240
we're just talking about the last five or ten
1145
00:50:45,240 --> 00:50:49,080
years, um, I think they'll record how mean we were
1146
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:52,440
to each other. I mean, it just in some ways, feels
1147
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,360
cruel, and it just, uh. It's hard for me to get
1148
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:59,130
out of that. I hope that we're able to turn the
1149
00:50:59,130 --> 00:51:02,210
tide on that so that when history remembers this
1150
00:51:02,210 --> 00:51:05,170
like, that these last 10 or 15 years, that posture
1151
00:51:05,170 --> 00:51:07,290
of these last 10, 15 years is a blip. And so it's
1152
00:51:07,290 --> 00:51:09,890
not worth noting. But right now I just. I can't. I
1153
00:51:09,890 --> 00:51:12,929
keep coming back to, like, it just. It feels so
1154
00:51:12,929 --> 00:51:17,690
mean and small. I know that, like, there are lots
1155
00:51:17,690 --> 00:51:19,570
of. Look, our newsletter, Future of Faith, is
1156
00:51:19,570 --> 00:51:21,250
filled with people who are doing amazing and
1157
00:51:21,250 --> 00:51:23,800
expansive things, but so much of what I see in the
1158
00:51:23,800 --> 00:51:25,800
news and politically just feels cruel.
1159
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:29,760
>> Loren: Wow. Yeah. Yeah. What, uh, do you hope for the
1160
00:51:29,760 --> 00:51:31,240
future of Christianity?
1161
00:51:34,360 --> 00:51:36,440
>> Josh Packard: This feels like a weird place. I do this a lot,
1162
00:51:36,440 --> 00:51:39,840
though, um, for the sociologists in the room to be
1163
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,680
reminding, uh, like, sometimes I'm giving keynotes
1164
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:45,440
or whatever, talks in front of pastors, um, like,
1165
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:47,600
large audiences of pastors and ministers, and I'm
1166
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,560
the one reminding them that the Holy Spirit does,
1167
00:51:49,560 --> 00:51:51,930
in fact, exist, that you don't have to control
1168
00:51:51,930 --> 00:51:52,290
everything.
1169
00:51:52,290 --> 00:51:52,850
>> Loren: Yeah.
1170
00:51:53,090 --> 00:51:54,450
>> Josh Packard: And in fact, you can't do everything.
1171
00:51:54,530 --> 00:51:55,010
>> Loren: Yeah.
1172
00:51:55,090 --> 00:51:57,450
>> Josh Packard: And it seems like we're so. It seems like we've
1173
00:51:57,450 --> 00:52:00,210
given over religion in a lot of ways to this sort
1174
00:52:00,210 --> 00:52:04,050
of capitalist ethic of, um, you know, the. The
1175
00:52:04,050 --> 00:52:06,089
greatest among us are the ones who control the
1176
00:52:06,089 --> 00:52:07,010
most variables.
1177
00:52:07,010 --> 00:52:08,850
>> Loren: Yes. And yes.
1178
00:52:09,170 --> 00:52:12,490
>> Josh Packard: We have a faith that is explicitly opposed to
1179
00:52:12,490 --> 00:52:14,650
that, and I think we would do well to remember it.
1180
00:52:14,650 --> 00:52:15,570
>> Loren: Well, that'll preach.
1181
00:52:16,850 --> 00:52:17,890
>> Josh Packard: I'm no preacher.
1182
00:52:19,610 --> 00:52:23,070
>> Loren: Uh, where can people connect with you? You
1183
00:52:23,070 --> 00:52:25,430
mentioned the newsletter Future of Faith.
1184
00:52:25,510 --> 00:52:27,350
>> Josh Packard: Yeah. So I'm the co founder of an organization
1185
00:52:27,350 --> 00:52:29,430
called Future of Faith, and you can certainly go
1186
00:52:29,430 --> 00:52:32,430
there. We try to make as much of what we do free
1187
00:52:32,430 --> 00:52:35,110
as possible. Um, we have an economic model that
1188
00:52:35,110 --> 00:52:37,710
relies on partnerships for evaluation work with
1189
00:52:37,710 --> 00:52:39,750
organizations who have grants. So you're not going
1190
00:52:39,750 --> 00:52:41,350
to come and get a sales pitch from us? There's no.
1191
00:52:41,430 --> 00:52:43,110
We don't have a shopping cart. You can't buy
1192
00:52:43,110 --> 00:52:45,390
anything. So you can sign up for stuff for free.
1193
00:52:45,390 --> 00:52:48,330
There's. But thanks for asking about the book. So.
1194
00:52:48,410 --> 00:52:52,970
Faithfulfuturesbook.com um, and the reason I want
1195
00:52:52,970 --> 00:52:54,730
to talk about this is that we're really trying to
1196
00:52:54,730 --> 00:52:57,450
do this launch differently, um, put this book out
1197
00:52:57,450 --> 00:52:59,370
into the world differently and trying to be as
1198
00:52:59,370 --> 00:53:02,570
generous as we possibly can be. So, for example,
1199
00:53:02,810 --> 00:53:05,850
there's free webinar that you can go and watch if
1200
00:53:05,850 --> 00:53:07,370
you want to learn more about the book. You can get
1201
00:53:07,370 --> 00:53:10,050
chapter summaries. But also, if you know somebody
1202
00:53:10,050 --> 00:53:11,890
who would benefit from this book, all you have to
1203
00:53:11,890 --> 00:53:14,690
do is drop a line to me from the form on that
1204
00:53:14,690 --> 00:53:16,300
page. I'll mail them a free book.
1205
00:53:16,380 --> 00:53:16,860
>> Loren: Wow.
1206
00:53:17,010 --> 00:53:18,620
>> Josh Packard: Um, if you know somebody who's doing something
1207
00:53:18,620 --> 00:53:20,740
amazing in ministry, you know what happens when
1208
00:53:20,740 --> 00:53:22,340
you write a book like this is that you end up
1209
00:53:22,340 --> 00:53:24,260
getting invited to speak in places. And so we're
1210
00:53:24,260 --> 00:53:27,300
tithing. I'm, um, tithing some of that back into
1211
00:53:27,300 --> 00:53:28,900
this Faithful Futures fund. So if you know
1212
00:53:28,900 --> 00:53:30,020
somebody who's doing something amazing in
1213
00:53:30,020 --> 00:53:32,060
ministry, drop me a line, tell me what they're
1214
00:53:32,060 --> 00:53:34,620
doing. We'll send them $250. No questions asked,
1215
00:53:34,620 --> 00:53:37,820
just a gift. So we would love to have more people
1216
00:53:37,900 --> 00:53:41,070
taking us up on that offer. Um, it's. There's no
1217
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strings attached. We don't sign them up to a
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mailing list or anything like that.
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>> Loren: That's awesome. Well, thank you so much for your
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time. Really appreciate you coming down here and,
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uh, safe travels on your way down to Denver from
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here. And we always leave folks with a word of
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peace. So may God's peace be with you.
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>> Josh Packard: Thank you very much.
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>> Loren Richmond: Thanks for joining us on the Future Christian
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Podcast. The Future Christian Podcast is produced
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by Resonate Media. We love to hear from our
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listeners with questions, comments, and ideas for
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future episodes. Visit our
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website@future-christian.com and find the Connect
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with Us form at the bottom of the page to get in
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touch with Martha or Loren. But before you go, do
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us a favor, subscribe to the POD to leave a
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00:54:23,410 --> 00:54:26,130
review. It really helps us get this out to more
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people. Thanks and go in PE.