Conrad Weaver (00:00.314)
Very good. Well, Daryl, welcome to the First Responder Leadership Podcast.
Darryl Cleveland (00:05.496)
Thanks, Conrad. It's a pleasure to be here.
Conrad Weaver (00:07.834)
Yeah, so for our listening audience and those that are watching, tell us a little bit about your background. I know you are a retired fire chief. tell us a little bit about you know about that.
Darryl Cleveland (00:19.448)
Well, I had a a very long career, thirty-nine years, just shy of forty actually. And I worked most of my career in Southern California, finished my career in northern Nevada, and but I spent thirty-two years of that time as a paramedic and firefighter, flew on EMS helicopters, flew on fire helicopters for a while, was engine company captain, battalion chief, fire chief.
And excuse me. so I had a a pretty interesting career, got to do a lot of things in some various places.
Conrad Weaver (00:56.912)
Mm. Yeah. So what was the culture like back in in your time there in Southern California? What was the culture there r related to mental health and wellness and all those kind of things?
Darryl Cleveland (01:08.502)
Mental health and wellness, what was that?
Conrad Weaver (01:11.526)
Yeah.
Darryl Cleveland (01:12.908)
Right. So there was no such thing. I mean we had employee EAPs, employee assistance programs. Nobody really ever used them. Nobody really knew what they were about. We knew it was
Conrad Weaver (01:21.166)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Conrad Weaver (01:27.43)
Why do you think that is? I hear that a lot. Y you why do you think that is?
Darryl Cleveland (01:32.904)
It wasn't seen I believe as as a priority and it wasn't recognized back then. you know, there was very much a culture back in that time of and and it still s exists today, almost across the board of just suck it up. And and mental health awareness, gosh, we just we just didn't have it. And I don't know that the
Conrad Weaver (01:50.064)
Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (01:59.468)
the prevalence that we have today of of suicides amongst first responders, especially in fire and EMS, was as as acute as it has become. it was always there with law enforcement, I think. to to some extent, maybe larger today, I don't know. but in the fire service, it really took on a new light, I think, in the early two thousands, where we were seeing this and
the agency that comes to mind was Phoenix Fire Department in Arizona. they really had a substantial rash of of suicides in their organization.
Conrad Weaver (02:37.786)
So as a as a leader back then when you were coming up through the ranks and you, you know, advanced in your leadership, what was that like when you knew guys and gals that you had that worked with you for you, when you knew maybe something wasn't quite right? What what was the what what was leadership doing?
Darryl Cleveland (03:00.897)
You know, not a lot still and and I I can't say that it was faulted by any particular thing other than it just wasn't we weren't trained for it. It wasn't a part of the conversation, it wasn't a part of the training, wasn't a part of the culture for sure. And I think that had leadership known more back then, they would have probably been more proactive.
Conrad Weaver (03:14.512)
Sure.
Darryl Cleveland (03:29.491)
as I think a lot of them are becoming today. but you can't fix what you don't know. And there was a whole lot of we just didn't know. even for myself, you know, coming up through the ranks. I could tell when things were affecting my crew, especially as a captain, because I was so close with them. and and being able to ask questions, hey are you doing okay? But you know, the the challenging part of that as a company officer is
you're probably dealing with the same thing they are at the same time. And so being able to help another when you're in a a situation yourself that you're not really recognizing is challenging. And maybe
Conrad Weaver (04:11.82)
Mm. And maybe not even wanting to admit that you're having those similar kind of issues because you're the leader, right?
Darryl Cleveland (04:19.894)
Yeah, yeah. And and it was very much a a culture of I'm okay, you're okay. You know? And I think that at least in my case, I can't speak for others obviously, but I think that in my case, it was a matter of
trying to decompress as I was traveling home from from shift and putting things behind me which really never happened. And I in in writing the book that I just finished, it it was really a a deep dive and and detailed look in the mirror to try to understand my own traumas. And
how to deal with them and w I can tell you personally when I tried to find help back in twenty thirteen when I was really, really struggling, there really wasn't any help to be found.
Conrad Weaver (05:20.08)
Hmm. What was it that made you aware of, I need to probably do something here to get some help?
Darryl Cleveland (05:21.859)
What wasn't that made you aware of
Darryl Cleveland (05:31.959)
Well, it really and I and I've heard this from a lot of guys that I worked with over the years, that the dreams, nightmares, impacts of the things that we dealt with over our careers really started coming on heavy when when we retired, when there was no more alarms going off, there was no more sleepless nights, no more getting together with your crew at the station.
You at the beginning of shift and throughout the shift. and I think a part of that was the ability to finally sleep. I remember one day right after I retired from my my operational career before I went into training and education. I woke up one morning and I felt weird. And I looked at my wife and I said, You know what? I think I just slept for the first time in 30 some years. It was as strange as feeling.
And it was at that point that things really started to I guess awaken, if you will, in in my mind and in my my sleep life. and again I've I've heard that from a lot of other guys.
Conrad Weaver (06:42.928)
Mm. Wow. So, you know, how much influence does a leader, even a frontline leader, like someone that's in in like a captain with the with the troops, how much influence do they have, that person has, over whether someone feels safe enough to say, I'm okay or I'm not okay?
Darryl Cleveland (06:51.834)
Yeah.
Darryl Cleveland (07:02.894)
I think they can have a lot of influence. because you obviously when you're living in that type of a close quarter situation, the company officer is is integral to the success of the the crew and has a lot of influence over just about every aspect it that happens in the course of your your daily lives while you're working together. Excuse me. however I think that
The reason it doesn't happen is is it's a training issue. We're not equipped for it. I could tell you when I was a company officer, you know, I could train my guys to the end of time on strategies, tactics, any number of things, and we did all that. We we prepared ourselves in every possible way to make sure that we went home. Everyone went home. I think today
Conrad Weaver (07:57.424)
Mm.
Darryl Cleveland (08:01.57)
the moniker needs to change from everyone goes home or in addition to everyone goes home to be home healthier and and being able as a company officer to be trained, to be able to recognize when, okay, we've just been to a really critical incident and I need to take some action here. I need to I need to talk to my guys. I need to find out, hey, are you doing okay with what we just went through? I remember one call in particular,
It it ended up being two calls in one. we we had gone to a a man with a head injury and he'd been struck with a hatchet on his head. he was alive, he was talking to us, but he had gone to his garage, heard a noise. Long story short, it ended up being a double murder scene. And it was pretty horrific. I don't need to go into the details, but it visibly shook my crew. And
Conrad Weaver (08:42.447)
Yes, yes.
Conrad Weaver (08:51.516)
wow. Hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (09:01.122)
And myself as well. Only a couple of us could go in because it was a crime scene. So myself and my paramedic went in and but it it was a visible disturbance in in the force, you know. So and I do recall I think asking, you know, if if my guys were okay, but it's it's not just the one off that happens, it's the cumul accumulation that occurs over all the years of
Conrad Weaver (09:15.27)
Yeah.
Darryl Cleveland (09:30.646)
Witnessing things that we should never see as human beings.
Conrad Weaver (09:34.331)
What are some leaders doing, maybe even unintentionally, that kind of reinforces that stigma around mental health?
Darryl Cleveland (09:44.768)
I don't know that I can say it's what they're doing as much as what they're maybe not doing. I think that
You know, l not every agency in the in the country has experienced a line of duty suicide. and and we still aren't calling those line of duty deaths, to my knowledge. And I've been retired for six years now and and so I'm not as close to things as I used to be, but I I don't know that we're calling those line of duty deaths, and I think that's a mistake, because we call cancer a line of duty death.
we call heart attacks in line of duty death. Well, how is suicide different when it was brought on by what the individual experienced on the job? that's a whole nother ball game there. But I think that until it really hits home, it can be a challenge for leadership. And I know that when when I worked in the Reno area, we had an agency there that had a firefighter take his own life and it was a
It was a massive impact, not just to that agency, but to the whole community. And they became very proactive and and started really reaching out. And it was because it hit home. And I think that there's so many things that until it hits home, whether you know it's a building collapse during a structure fire that takes lives or a suicide, once it hits home, it it all of a sudden becomes important. It's like so many things in life that, well, until it happens here, we're not gonna worry about it.
Conrad Weaver (11:21.883)
You know, it's it's really a shame that that's the way it has to be. And it it really doesn't have to be that way, right? And and and so why is that? Why are we wired that way to not worry about things until it hits home?
Darryl Cleveland (11:28.073)
I agree.
Darryl Cleveland (11:35.127)
You know, I wish I had an answer for that. I think that's the question of the century right there. it just seems to be that way. And it's it's a commitment. It usually involves money that's not allocated to those types of things. And I don't know of an organization that doesn't have budget problems and hasn't had for almost their entire existence. And and so those are factors. You know, we put money where we find things to be important.
I've learned a long time ago, if you want to know what an agency's priorities are or company or whomever, look at their budget.
Conrad Weaver (12:12.485)
Yeah, that is so absolutely true. But when it comes down to, you know, our mental health, really our brain is the heartbeat of our whole existence, you know, and if we don't take care of that part of us, you know, we can't do anything else. And so my question is then, why are even people who are in charge of budgets, why don't they understand that?
Darryl Cleveland (12:14.942)
Okay.
Darryl Cleveland (12:30.891)
Absolutely.
Conrad Weaver (12:40.785)
That if we if you don't have healthy people mental health wise, you're not gonna have healthy organizations.
Darryl Cleveland (12:47.722)
I think that that awareness is becoming more prevalent, in spite of you know things that we've already talked about, but it there is a a greater awareness to it. But I think that regionally speaking, it's a large country. And regionally speaking, in my experience, the more rural you are, the less resources you have on any social level. So that's a a factor. The
Conrad Weaver (13:11.003)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (13:18.944)
Ability to reach the right resource is a big issue. Now, you know, I I wrote my book starting back in January, finished it in just the end of July here and and sent it out. it's published in on Amazon. But as I've done that, gone through that process, there have been more, I've seen more things coming in my social feeds regarding first responder mental health, which is kind of interesting.
Conrad Weaver (13:24.876)
Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (13:47.777)
I don't know how the the algorithms work, but they seem to be pretty smart at that. So I've I've come to understand that okay, this isn't quite as bad as I thought, but still finding one of the things in the incident command system that was just absolutely drilled into my head over the years is it's all about comprehensive resource utilization. Well, what does that mean? That's kind of a big term. And simply put, it's getting the right resource for the job at the time.
Conrad Weaver (13:49.689)
Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (14:18.35)
Well, in the mental health world, what does that look like? Sometimes we're thrust into a situation that feels very uncomfortable. I'll give you couple of examples. We had an off duty death in our department that he was a captain and just a very loved guy, great guy, and really shook the agency. And they brought in mental health professionals for us to go and meet with as companies. And when I say companies, engine companies, truck companies, et cetera.
Conrad Weaver (14:46.513)
Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (14:47.594)
And so we did that, but it was so foreign and it was so
There just wasn't any it didn't connect, I don't think. And if there's no connection, well, what's the point? So that was one instance. And then the other instance that I recall very clearly was I was one of three guys on our department that was a a part of the urban search and rescue task force for FEMA, and we were deployed to New York City on nine eleven. And when we got home from that event,
We were all the all three of us, not individually, three of us at one time, were sent to a psychologist. And my first thought was, why do we need to go see see a shrink? Do they think we're broken? And again, it didn't connect. Now, not that the incident didn't connect, it connected in ways that I had no idea it would over time in years. But
Just getting thrust into you gotta go talk to somebody that's never seen, never done what you've done, and just tell them everything. What does that mean? And we're just not wired that way. We're not going to do that. So that's a part of the error that happens. There needs to be a connection. I think that one thing I know that it's has worked very well for some agencies is a chaplaincy. And I've got a very good friend that.
was a chaplain on his organization, large organization in Southern California, and they created a peer support care team. and these were people that had been there, people that had walked in your shoes that could come alongside you and just be there and listen. that's that's a great connection. And I think that's something that should be explored more. And it doesn't have to cost a lot to do that.
Conrad Weaver (16:32.712)
Mm-hmm.
Conrad Weaver (16:42.16)
Mm-hmm. What's the the challenge for a senior leader, speci especially like a chief who's, you know, at the top of the pyramid, so to speak, to have peers that he or she can talk to about these kind of things. I mean, you're kind of, you know, that down you you know, peer support is often for the rank and file. You're it's you know, it's kind of that that you know, lower tier
individual, but there's not much peer support for a chief or someone at the top of the organization.
Darryl Cleveland (17:18.466)
That's very true. That is very true. And in my upcomings through my career, one of the things that I discovered was my greatest resource as a chief officer was a network that I built on the way up. And through my career, I did a lot of teaching at conferences and traveling to different events like that, meeting amazing people and involved in other fire service and EMS organizations. So
I was able to build a tremendous resource for myself because when you're at the top of any organization, there's only one of you. And you can't complain down. That's the wrong direction. And there's really not an up to complain to. I mean, there is your board of directors or whomever, your council members, but not really the right avenue. And so you have to reach out to your network that you have. And if you haven't got one, create one.
You've got to do that peer to peer, chief to chief. get those people that you know and trust and that know and trust you and have that resource available.
Conrad Weaver (18:26.056)
Hm. And is that something that you did? I mean you said you said you kind of used the kind of kind of gather the people that you networked with on your way up. And and so how important was that in your, you know, last few years as as a leader?
Darryl Cleveland (18:40.832)
It was critical because even though the the chief of the department may not be on the scene that has affected the the team
When your members are affected, when your your your fire family is affected, it it has a ripple effect throughout, up and down and out. And it's important to
Take care of those that that you're overseeing that you're responsible for. That was something I always took with with great responsibility. I had a I had lives that I was responsible for, and beyond them, they're families. And as a chief officer that became even more so. I think that in a lot of ways there's been a s significant disconnect between the chief of the agency and and the rank and file over the years. Maybe it's always been there.
Depending on the size of the organization, you may not ever even know the chief, you know, or meet him. It's just a reality. so making yourself available to people and letting them letting them know that they are the priority. Without them, nothing happens. That was something I always told my crews was I can give orders all day long, but if there's nobody to carry them out, what what good is it? And so there had to be a connection, there had to be a relationship.
between the leader and the followers and and I I believe like John Maxwell has taught for decades that leaders don't create followers, they create other leaders. And so that was something I attempted to do and hopefully did fairly well. But you've got to have a connection between the the head of the organization and those that are getting the job done.
Conrad Weaver (20:26.546)
Mm-hmm. So how important is it for a leader to be vulnerable with his or her people to to let them know that this stuff affects me too?
Darryl Cleveland (20:41.09)
That's a big key right there. I think that is really key. Having that vulnerability with your folks, being able to tell them that, you know what, this this has affected me also. We have a tendency to want to, I think, be strong. And this goes beyond the the people you work with. It really affects at home. You know, I write in my book that
The things I thought over the years and on my career that I was doing to protect my family, I was actually creating their own traumas around me. At home, I was the problem and had no knowledge of it. I I knew that there were things that I couldn't recognize, things that would happen, becoming this incredibly short fuse at home without any idea why. It didn't have a label, it didn't have a name, and it does now.
But we tend to still do the same things because we're not working on recognizing those things and and being able to stop for just a second and say, Wow, there's something going on and I need to figure it out. And be just having the ability to tell your crew, your family, both of them, yesterday was a really hard day. And I'm not sure what's going on right now. And and that's we've we've made that to be a
A signal of weakness to some extent, maybe a large extent. And that needs to go away. That is a huge part of the stigma. Being able to ask for help is the most
Conrad Weaver (22:22.226)
That's probably hard for a chief of the department to do.
Darryl Cleveland (22:26.026)
sure, sure. Or anybody really. It it doesn't matter the rank. It is hard to do, period. And I saw an interesting reel this morning. This guy that's got reels on Facebook and he's a firefighter from somewhere. but he was talking about how, you know, we trade in the fire service on how and when to call a Mayday when a firefighter's in trouble. He's low on air, can't find his way out, buildings collapse around him, whatever.
We need to teach our firefighters to call a Mayday before the walls are crashing in around because of a mental health issue. And I thought that was a a brilliant idea and and something that should be broadly taught and and adhered to. Mayday is not just physical.
Conrad Weaver (23:15.058)
Boy, that's an important concept. And I think if you can 'cause you it could be you know, because sometimes I mean let me start that over. You know, sometimes it's just the words that we use matter, right? I'll never forget when I had when I was working on my film, I had a I actually had a detective in you know, in in in in the film and he was telling his story about how the chief the the the police chief
Darryl Cleveland (23:28.366)
Sure, sure.
Conrad Weaver (23:42.78)
you know, said, Hey, I have this program I want you to go to to get help, because he was, you know, off the rails. He said, if the chief would have said, I have a psychologist for you to go to, I'd have said, you know, a f you know, a few four letter words and, you know, walked out the door. But he said, because he said, I I have a program for you to go to, it made all the difference. Just the word, that wording made all the difference. And perhaps
Darryl Cleveland (23:58.456)
Yeah.
Conrad Weaver (24:08.441)
Using words like you know, calling a May Day is the thing that works for firefighters and for EMTs.
Darryl Cleveland (24:14.316)
Yeah, I I agree completely. Words do matter, there's no doubt. And having experienced that myself, I think that it may have made a bigger difference back then. It's it's hard to, you know, go back and rewind that tape, but that's very true. That's a great point. And it needs to start early. It needs to start early, not just with those that are aspiring to come into these careers, but those that are around them, their families, whether it's their
Mom and dad or wives, husbands, that that needs to start early because families are ill prepared for what what they're getting into. And in my book, my wife and daughter have a a chapter each and they did a great job. And man, you want to talk about a challenging look in the mirror. Get your family's perspective on what it was like living with you when you were dealing with those things. That's that's something.
Conrad Weaver (25:10.181)
Was there a time in your career or even post career that you had to call a Mayday?
Darryl Cleveland (25:18.392)
There was. There were at least two that I know of. And the hard part was one time I did reach out to the EAP EAP program and
Tried to you know explain to them my struggle and they connected me with a a person that I could go talk to and I had to leave work. I I just couldn't stay there. And so that was one time. Was it helpful? To some degree it was not, but it wasn't ongoing. It was very short term, didn't provide any significant tools to be able to utilize the next time. And there there would always be a next time.
And then there was another time when I called a number and it was a hotline number for mental health issues with fire and EMS folks. And I get I was in Nevada, northern Nevada, and I get a battalion chief somewhere in Maryland who's on duty and he says, Hey, can I call you back? I'm on a run. And I I I thought, sure, sure.
Conrad Weaver (26:32.713)
Calling a May Day here, you know.
Darryl Cleveland (26:33.902)
And and so he called back and then the extent I was expecting an avenue, a a pathway to do something. And I think in in to the best of his ability, he tried to do that. What he did is he sent me via email five or six names of of therapists in my area. Well, no, thanks, but no thanks. And so
That didn't go anywhere. I I literally up until a year, year and a half ago, I had to figure out how to navigate my own mental things on my own. And that's challenging. It's very challenging. well, I take that back. That it happened earlier than that because when we lost our son six years ago in 2020, of course my symptoms got much worse.
and and my wife was dealing with the same things that I was with regard to that loss. We did seek out help and it was literally an ultimatum of you've got to get help and we're not gonna make it. And so we did and and that did help. he he gave me a medication that I still take. It helped me to slow down and and be able to process information better so that I wasn't quite so
quick to snap. so that did help. But the more long term stuff took longer. He he ended up after three or four visits, he ended up moving moving his practice out of state and well that was the of that. So that happens too.
Conrad Weaver (28:19.827)
Yeah. What would you say to someone who's just kind of come into the chief position? What would you say to that person about how to lead well when it comes to mental health and wellness?
Darryl Cleveland (28:34.722)
I would say first off, educate yourself. Educate yourself. Learn as much as you can about this issue. Learn about how to recognize the signs. And it's difficult, if not almost impossible, because so often we hear of of individuals in in this career field that have taken their lives and everybody around them says, we never saw it coming. So it's a challenge because we get really, really good at saying, I'm fine.
And that's not the reality. You know, it the old duck analogy looks smooth and serene on top of the water and paddling like crazy underneath. so that's
I I would say education is a big piece. And then make it normal within your organization to talk about it. As normal as putting on your turnouts for an emergency call, as normal as checking your apparatus when you come on shift. When when I was on the job as a captain, there was a program called Six Minutes for Safety, and it was really built for wildland firefighting, but you could
use it for anything. And so that was part of my morning briefings with my crew. And it helped to build my a awareness with the crew on a variety of things. And then also it helped to pad my training time on on you know if I because it was usually 15 minutes. so if nothing else I was gaining 15 minutes of shift in training to meet my my requirements as a as a captain, shift captain. So
I think that that is something that could be developed for mental health as well, that normalizes that conversation, that makes it okay for somebody to come to the office and knock on the door and hey Cap, you got a minute? Or hey chief, whomever. if we make it normal as leaders to address those issues, the people that are following will do the same. And then we change the culture.
Conrad Weaver (30:39.251)
That's powerful. Yeah, that's powerful. So it it's so tell us about your book and where we can find it.
Darryl Cleveland (30:47.98)
Well, my book is called These Hands. Kinda right there. There we go. those are my hands. It's called These Hands, A First Responder's Journey from PTSD to Healing. And it's on Amazon. you can look it up by title or by my name. And it was a book that was extremely challenging to to write, just getting to the point of being able to write it because
Conrad Weaver (30:52.893)
Yep.
Darryl Cleveland (31:19.296)
my initial thoughts were what would I have to say that anybody wants to hear? And you know, there's I'm just one of hundreds of thousands of us that have done what I did. And but when my wife and a couple of friends, my my PTSD therapist that I go to at the VA, now reframed it for me as a book that could help others, well then it made more sense. And
that was something that I could I could wrap my mind around. So I sat down and and started writing last January and published it the end of July this year and again gave my wife and daughter a chapter in it, which I thought was important because it's easy to talk from one perspective, but when you can look at how this issue affects a family unit, that becomes a bigger deal.
And because it definitely does. It it's not isolated by any means. And unfortunately it's one of those things that ends a lot of families. And I'd hate to see any more of that happen. So yeah, I we wrote it from a family perspective, we wrote it from our faith perspective as as Christians, as you know, Bible believing people, and how literally God saved our family through the things that He did through all the turmoil that was going on in our lives.
And we wanted that message to be out there because honestly, apart from that, apart from him, I don't know how I had to survive my career.
Conrad Weaver (32:58.91)
Wow. So what's the significance of these hands?
Darryl Cleveland (33:04.898)
Well one night, it was a title I had in mind for quite a long time. And one night, I don't know how many years ago, my wife and I were watching something on TV and couldn't tell you what it was, but I looked down at my hands and all of a sudden this just
unshakable sense of I I can't even describe it. It was overwhelming. But I was looking at my hands and and realizing all the experience my hands had had. You know, my eyes have seen things, my feet have walked through things, but my hands touched them. And
the the lives that they've carried. It just was so overwhelming. And we don't often think about that. We think about in our mind and and our eyes and our ears, but our hands. They're they're the instrument that does the work that we do. And so that's where the title came from. And it it really had great significance for myself and for my wife.
And I just couldn't think of a better title. So
Conrad Weaver (34:20.008)
Yeah. That sounds amazing. I can't wait to read it. well
Darryl Cleveland (34:24.878)
Yours is on the way, by the
Conrad Weaver (34:27.688)
Uh-uh. I'm sorry. I that thank you so much. I really appreciate that. yeah, and I really can't wait to read it because I think that perspective, and especially the family perspective is so important. as we know, you know, divorce rates are astronomically high within the first responder community. In fact, one one statistic I heard was like seventy five percent in divorce rate, which is really a shame. so in in
Darryl Cleveland (34:28.791)
Yours is on the way.
Conrad Weaver (34:54.93)
A as you moved through your career and then you went into retirement, w let's talk about that for a a minute. So what so how did retirement affect you when you put off the uniform and you put off the bunker gear and you know, you you still maybe hear the sirens every once in a while in your community. What yeah, how does that impact you?
Darryl Cleveland (35:07.598)
Don't
Darryl Cleveland (35:16.578)
No, that's a great question. And I do write a little bit about that in the book because for twenty, thirty, forty years of our lives, we are wrapped up in the identity of not just what we do, but who we are and how how big a part of us that is. And all the j all the chasing, you know, the this certification, that qualification, all of these things, especially if you've
moved all the way up to Fire Chief, you know, that's that's quite a climb.
There's a lot involved. And and all of a sudden, and the signature by pen in one day and one minute, it's all done. It all stops. And and all of a sudden, who am I now? Who am I going to be for the rest of my life? And it's it's not something we don't have any classes on it. We don't have any certifications for that. you know, with it's kind of the end point that we all know is there, that we all
strive to get to that that pension, that retirement, because we feel like, well, now we can, you know, live. Well, why weren't we doing that before, first of all, but it it's very challenging and and you have to redefine yourself. And you've got to find the some guys are are really good about it and in the ha habits and hobbies that they have that becomes their new
Conrad Weaver (36:30.756)
Hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (36:51.702)
thing. for me, I'm not a real big hobby guy. part of it was how I serve in my church. And so now I'm I'm the safety team lead in my church. And that I think has something to do with the just the way my mind is wired. having the opportunity to train and to lead and to prepare for things that I wish we didn't have to prepare for, but we do today.
It it's it's something that really has to be intentional. And just finding that intention is is challenging enough, let alone getting to the answers. But it can be done. It can be done. And reframing who you are and and it it's a bit of a discovery point, you know. What are my my interests now? you always hear the sirens, you always look at the fire engine and you know, the helicopter flying over, whatever it happens to be.
Conrad Weaver (37:42.89)
Mm-hmm.
Conrad Weaver (37:48.178)
Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (37:53.283)
But that part of you just never leaves and and I think that there's a a a point too where there's a a little bit of pride in s being able to say, This is what I did. You know? And and if you can keep some of the connection, I think that helps too. I don't stay connected with a great number of people, but there are a few that we stay in touch and we talk and sometimes commiserate because we're all going through something and
Conrad Weaver (38:04.436)
Hm. Sure.
Darryl Cleveland (38:23.168)
I'm finding now that many of us are in some sort of therapy that we just decided we needed some help with some things. And so we can talk about those things, which is hugely helpful.
Conrad Weaver (38:35.284)
So what's something you do today to keep you mentally health mentally healthy and and well?
Darryl Cleveland (38:44.982)
well, I mean first my my belief and faith in Jesus. That's that's forefront. he saved my marriage, at one point, well all the way through. my wife could tell you that. He he gave me the bl the many blessings that I got to experience for sure. So that's a big part of it. Number one is my faith.
Number two is is trying to find new hobbies. things that I can use to
take away some of the the the power, I guess you could say, of the memories. And one of the things that my therapist and I have done is she does what's called EMDR, eye movement desensitiz desensitization response, I think is what it stands for. Yeah. And it's it's really remarkable. It's really remarkable. And and you can do it on your own. You don't have to be there with somebody. I have done it on my own when I needed to.
Conrad Weaver (39:36.874)
I think it's reprocessing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Darryl Cleveland (39:48.353)
And it does help to it it just helps your brain to recategorize and and reset that memory. And so when needed, I'll do something like that. those times have become fewer and farther between, which I'm thankful for. but you just have to find ways to
I guess I I want to use the word distraction, but I don't know that that's the right word. It's it's more purposeful than a distraction. Ways to
Darryl Cleveland (40:23.554)
Just new things to do.
Conrad Weaver (40:26.869)
So final question, go back the memory lane. If you could think back to your first day when you walked into the firehouse as chief.
Darryl Cleveland (40:34.956)
Conrad Weaver (40:36.159)
What would you tell yourself?
Darryl Cleveland (40:38.774)
I would have told myself knowing n what I know now that I wish I'd known then.
Conrad Weaver (40:45.055)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Darryl Cleveland (40:50.038)
Everything's not a ten.
Darryl Cleveland (40:54.318)
Slow down, take a look, listen more. I made mistakes. I made mistakes, and some of those mistakes affected other people when it could have been more of a teachable moment. Sometimes though we, and this was the fault of mine that led to that, bringing past traumas, if you will, in dealing with others and their negative behaviors into a new relationship.
where had I had I known to slow down it's not a ten take this to is an opportunity to train and educate versus to punish and and the issue was lying I had been burned by some people that that was their normal mo and I wasn't gonna go through that again so y I I would say
Just slow down and get to know people. Give them give them some grace and walk the walk with them.
Conrad Weaver (42:03.189)
Those are important words for anyone to hear, even today. And I think that if if leaders can take that to heart, I think they will find themselves in a better spot as a leader and you'll find people that will respect you.
Darryl Cleveland (42:16.768)
Absolutely. Absolutely. And and without respect for the leader, respecting the position is one thing, but respecting the leader in the position, that's definitely earned and has to be there for the good of the organization.
Conrad Weaver (42:31.657)
Yep. Yep. Very good. Well, so so so a couple of quick questions. Tea or coffee?
Y y would you rather have tea or coffee? Coffee, yeah, me too. I'm I have a cup right here. hunting or fishing.
Darryl Cleveland (42:44.388)
coffee. Yeah. It's
Darryl Cleveland (42:55.48)
Fishing see I I live in Tennessee now and I can just go out about fifty feet from my back window here and wait for the right deer to walk up and that's really not hunting, it's lying in wait for a four legged animal. But fishing.
Conrad Weaver (42:59.369)
Yeah.
Conrad Weaver (43:13.279)
No, d so do you enjoy travel?
Darryl Cleveland (43:13.718)
Well, just
You know, it's funny because I've I've become as I've gotten older more of a homebody. I was gone so much from home over my career on long assignments, wildfires and so forth, that I I really like to be home.
Conrad Weaver (43:31.251)
Mm. Yeah. If well they say Okay. Well, they say there's no place like home, right? Yeah. Well, Daryl, thank you so much for taking time to talk to us today. I really appreciate it and appreciate your insights into all these things and and thank you for your leadership. And I yeah, like I said earlier, I can't wait to read your book and to encourage everyone to get out there and to to go to Amazon and and purchase this book and
Darryl Cleveland (43:32.738)
But my wife wants to travel.
Darryl Cleveland (43:38.166)
Right.
Darryl Cleveland (43:43.608)
Thank you for that.
Conrad Weaver (43:58.079)
So how can people reach out to you if they wanna d if they wanna reach out?
Darryl Cleveland (44:01.934)
So my email address is TheseHands26 at Gmail. And that's about the best way to get in touch with me. I'm pretty quick to respond to my emails and would love to hear from anybody that wants to strike up a conversation. I'm on Facebook, These Hands on Facebook, and I'm also on LinkedIn under my name Daryl Cleveland.
Conrad Weaver (44:23.604)
Awesome. Well Daryl, thank you so much for your time. Yep. Excellent. Let me hit the stop button here.
Darryl Cleveland (44:25.75)
No, no, thank you. I really appreciate it.
Very good. Well, Daryl, welcome to the First Responder Leadership Podcast.
Darryl Cleveland (00:05.496)
Thanks, Conrad. It's a pleasure to be here.
Conrad Weaver (00:07.834)
Yeah, so for our listening audience and those that are watching, tell us a little bit about your background. I know you are a retired fire chief. tell us a little bit about you know about that.
Darryl Cleveland (00:19.448)
Well, I had a a very long career, thirty-nine years, just shy of forty actually. And I worked most of my career in Southern California, finished my career in northern Nevada, and but I spent thirty-two years of that time as a paramedic and firefighter, flew on EMS helicopters, flew on fire helicopters for a while, was engine company captain, battalion chief, fire chief.
And excuse me. so I had a a pretty interesting career, got to do a lot of things in some various places.
Conrad Weaver (00:56.912)
Mm. Yeah. So what was the culture like back in in your time there in Southern California? What was the culture there r related to mental health and wellness and all those kind of things?
Darryl Cleveland (01:08.502)
Mental health and wellness, what was that?
Conrad Weaver (01:11.526)
Yeah.
Darryl Cleveland (01:12.908)
Right. So there was no such thing. I mean we had employee EAPs, employee assistance programs. Nobody really ever used them. Nobody really knew what they were about. We knew it was
Conrad Weaver (01:21.166)
Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep.
Conrad Weaver (01:27.43)
Why do you think that is? I hear that a lot. Y you why do you think that is?
Darryl Cleveland (01:32.904)
It wasn't seen I believe as as a priority and it wasn't recognized back then. you know, there was very much a culture back in that time of and and it still s exists today, almost across the board of just suck it up. And and mental health awareness, gosh, we just we just didn't have it. And I don't know that the
Conrad Weaver (01:50.064)
Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (01:59.468)
the prevalence that we have today of of suicides amongst first responders, especially in fire and EMS, was as as acute as it has become. it was always there with law enforcement, I think. to to some extent, maybe larger today, I don't know. but in the fire service, it really took on a new light, I think, in the early two thousands, where we were seeing this and
the agency that comes to mind was Phoenix Fire Department in Arizona. they really had a substantial rash of of suicides in their organization.
Conrad Weaver (02:37.786)
So as a as a leader back then when you were coming up through the ranks and you, you know, advanced in your leadership, what was that like when you knew guys and gals that you had that worked with you for you, when you knew maybe something wasn't quite right? What what was the what what was leadership doing?
Darryl Cleveland (03:00.897)
You know, not a lot still and and I I can't say that it was faulted by any particular thing other than it just wasn't we weren't trained for it. It wasn't a part of the conversation, it wasn't a part of the training, wasn't a part of the culture for sure. And I think that had leadership known more back then, they would have probably been more proactive.
Conrad Weaver (03:14.512)
Sure.
Darryl Cleveland (03:29.491)
as I think a lot of them are becoming today. but you can't fix what you don't know. And there was a whole lot of we just didn't know. even for myself, you know, coming up through the ranks. I could tell when things were affecting my crew, especially as a captain, because I was so close with them. and and being able to ask questions, hey are you doing okay? But you know, the the challenging part of that as a company officer is
you're probably dealing with the same thing they are at the same time. And so being able to help another when you're in a a situation yourself that you're not really recognizing is challenging. And maybe
Conrad Weaver (04:11.82)
Mm. And maybe not even wanting to admit that you're having those similar kind of issues because you're the leader, right?
Darryl Cleveland (04:19.894)
Yeah, yeah. And and it was very much a a culture of I'm okay, you're okay. You know? And I think that at least in my case, I can't speak for others obviously, but I think that in my case, it was a matter of
trying to decompress as I was traveling home from from shift and putting things behind me which really never happened. And I in in writing the book that I just finished, it it was really a a deep dive and and detailed look in the mirror to try to understand my own traumas. And
how to deal with them and w I can tell you personally when I tried to find help back in twenty thirteen when I was really, really struggling, there really wasn't any help to be found.
Conrad Weaver (05:20.08)
Hmm. What was it that made you aware of, I need to probably do something here to get some help?
Darryl Cleveland (05:21.859)
What wasn't that made you aware of
Darryl Cleveland (05:31.959)
Well, it really and I and I've heard this from a lot of guys that I worked with over the years, that the dreams, nightmares, impacts of the things that we dealt with over our careers really started coming on heavy when when we retired, when there was no more alarms going off, there was no more sleepless nights, no more getting together with your crew at the station.
You at the beginning of shift and throughout the shift. and I think a part of that was the ability to finally sleep. I remember one day right after I retired from my my operational career before I went into training and education. I woke up one morning and I felt weird. And I looked at my wife and I said, You know what? I think I just slept for the first time in 30 some years. It was as strange as feeling.
And it was at that point that things really started to I guess awaken, if you will, in in my mind and in my my sleep life. and again I've I've heard that from a lot of other guys.
Conrad Weaver (06:42.928)
Mm. Wow. So, you know, how much influence does a leader, even a frontline leader, like someone that's in in like a captain with the with the troops, how much influence do they have, that person has, over whether someone feels safe enough to say, I'm okay or I'm not okay?
Darryl Cleveland (06:51.834)
Yeah.
Darryl Cleveland (07:02.894)
I think they can have a lot of influence. because you obviously when you're living in that type of a close quarter situation, the company officer is is integral to the success of the the crew and has a lot of influence over just about every aspect it that happens in the course of your your daily lives while you're working together. Excuse me. however I think that
The reason it doesn't happen is is it's a training issue. We're not equipped for it. I could tell you when I was a company officer, you know, I could train my guys to the end of time on strategies, tactics, any number of things, and we did all that. We we prepared ourselves in every possible way to make sure that we went home. Everyone went home. I think today
Conrad Weaver (07:57.424)
Mm.
Darryl Cleveland (08:01.57)
the moniker needs to change from everyone goes home or in addition to everyone goes home to be home healthier and and being able as a company officer to be trained, to be able to recognize when, okay, we've just been to a really critical incident and I need to take some action here. I need to I need to talk to my guys. I need to find out, hey, are you doing okay with what we just went through? I remember one call in particular,
It it ended up being two calls in one. we we had gone to a a man with a head injury and he'd been struck with a hatchet on his head. he was alive, he was talking to us, but he had gone to his garage, heard a noise. Long story short, it ended up being a double murder scene. And it was pretty horrific. I don't need to go into the details, but it visibly shook my crew. And
Conrad Weaver (08:42.447)
Yes, yes.
Conrad Weaver (08:51.516)
wow. Hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (09:01.122)
And myself as well. Only a couple of us could go in because it was a crime scene. So myself and my paramedic went in and but it it was a visible disturbance in in the force, you know. So and I do recall I think asking, you know, if if my guys were okay, but it's it's not just the one off that happens, it's the cumul accumulation that occurs over all the years of
Conrad Weaver (09:15.27)
Yeah.
Darryl Cleveland (09:30.646)
Witnessing things that we should never see as human beings.
Conrad Weaver (09:34.331)
What are some leaders doing, maybe even unintentionally, that kind of reinforces that stigma around mental health?
Darryl Cleveland (09:44.768)
I don't know that I can say it's what they're doing as much as what they're maybe not doing. I think that
You know, l not every agency in the in the country has experienced a line of duty suicide. and and we still aren't calling those line of duty deaths, to my knowledge. And I've been retired for six years now and and so I'm not as close to things as I used to be, but I I don't know that we're calling those line of duty deaths, and I think that's a mistake, because we call cancer a line of duty death.
we call heart attacks in line of duty death. Well, how is suicide different when it was brought on by what the individual experienced on the job? that's a whole nother ball game there. But I think that until it really hits home, it can be a challenge for leadership. And I know that when when I worked in the Reno area, we had an agency there that had a firefighter take his own life and it was a
It was a massive impact, not just to that agency, but to the whole community. And they became very proactive and and started really reaching out. And it was because it hit home. And I think that there's so many things that until it hits home, whether you know it's a building collapse during a structure fire that takes lives or a suicide, once it hits home, it it all of a sudden becomes important. It's like so many things in life that, well, until it happens here, we're not gonna worry about it.
Conrad Weaver (11:21.883)
You know, it's it's really a shame that that's the way it has to be. And it it really doesn't have to be that way, right? And and and so why is that? Why are we wired that way to not worry about things until it hits home?
Darryl Cleveland (11:28.073)
I agree.
Darryl Cleveland (11:35.127)
You know, I wish I had an answer for that. I think that's the question of the century right there. it just seems to be that way. And it's it's a commitment. It usually involves money that's not allocated to those types of things. And I don't know of an organization that doesn't have budget problems and hasn't had for almost their entire existence. And and so those are factors. You know, we put money where we find things to be important.
I've learned a long time ago, if you want to know what an agency's priorities are or company or whomever, look at their budget.
Conrad Weaver (12:12.485)
Yeah, that is so absolutely true. But when it comes down to, you know, our mental health, really our brain is the heartbeat of our whole existence, you know, and if we don't take care of that part of us, you know, we can't do anything else. And so my question is then, why are even people who are in charge of budgets, why don't they understand that?
Darryl Cleveland (12:14.942)
Okay.
Darryl Cleveland (12:30.891)
Absolutely.
Conrad Weaver (12:40.785)
That if we if you don't have healthy people mental health wise, you're not gonna have healthy organizations.
Darryl Cleveland (12:47.722)
I think that that awareness is becoming more prevalent, in spite of you know things that we've already talked about, but it there is a a greater awareness to it. But I think that regionally speaking, it's a large country. And regionally speaking, in my experience, the more rural you are, the less resources you have on any social level. So that's a a factor. The
Conrad Weaver (13:11.003)
Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (13:18.944)
Ability to reach the right resource is a big issue. Now, you know, I I wrote my book starting back in January, finished it in just the end of July here and and sent it out. it's published in on Amazon. But as I've done that, gone through that process, there have been more, I've seen more things coming in my social feeds regarding first responder mental health, which is kind of interesting.
Conrad Weaver (13:24.876)
Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (13:47.777)
I don't know how the the algorithms work, but they seem to be pretty smart at that. So I've I've come to understand that okay, this isn't quite as bad as I thought, but still finding one of the things in the incident command system that was just absolutely drilled into my head over the years is it's all about comprehensive resource utilization. Well, what does that mean? That's kind of a big term. And simply put, it's getting the right resource for the job at the time.
Conrad Weaver (13:49.689)
Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (14:18.35)
Well, in the mental health world, what does that look like? Sometimes we're thrust into a situation that feels very uncomfortable. I'll give you couple of examples. We had an off duty death in our department that he was a captain and just a very loved guy, great guy, and really shook the agency. And they brought in mental health professionals for us to go and meet with as companies. And when I say companies, engine companies, truck companies, et cetera.
Conrad Weaver (14:46.513)
Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (14:47.594)
And so we did that, but it was so foreign and it was so
There just wasn't any it didn't connect, I don't think. And if there's no connection, well, what's the point? So that was one instance. And then the other instance that I recall very clearly was I was one of three guys on our department that was a a part of the urban search and rescue task force for FEMA, and we were deployed to New York City on nine eleven. And when we got home from that event,
We were all the all three of us, not individually, three of us at one time, were sent to a psychologist. And my first thought was, why do we need to go see see a shrink? Do they think we're broken? And again, it didn't connect. Now, not that the incident didn't connect, it connected in ways that I had no idea it would over time in years. But
Just getting thrust into you gotta go talk to somebody that's never seen, never done what you've done, and just tell them everything. What does that mean? And we're just not wired that way. We're not going to do that. So that's a part of the error that happens. There needs to be a connection. I think that one thing I know that it's has worked very well for some agencies is a chaplaincy. And I've got a very good friend that.
was a chaplain on his organization, large organization in Southern California, and they created a peer support care team. and these were people that had been there, people that had walked in your shoes that could come alongside you and just be there and listen. that's that's a great connection. And I think that's something that should be explored more. And it doesn't have to cost a lot to do that.
Conrad Weaver (16:32.712)
Mm-hmm.
Conrad Weaver (16:42.16)
Mm-hmm. What's the the challenge for a senior leader, speci especially like a chief who's, you know, at the top of the pyramid, so to speak, to have peers that he or she can talk to about these kind of things. I mean, you're kind of, you know, that down you you know, peer support is often for the rank and file. You're it's you know, it's kind of that that you know, lower tier
individual, but there's not much peer support for a chief or someone at the top of the organization.
Darryl Cleveland (17:18.466)
That's very true. That is very true. And in my upcomings through my career, one of the things that I discovered was my greatest resource as a chief officer was a network that I built on the way up. And through my career, I did a lot of teaching at conferences and traveling to different events like that, meeting amazing people and involved in other fire service and EMS organizations. So
I was able to build a tremendous resource for myself because when you're at the top of any organization, there's only one of you. And you can't complain down. That's the wrong direction. And there's really not an up to complain to. I mean, there is your board of directors or whomever, your council members, but not really the right avenue. And so you have to reach out to your network that you have. And if you haven't got one, create one.
You've got to do that peer to peer, chief to chief. get those people that you know and trust and that know and trust you and have that resource available.
Conrad Weaver (18:26.056)
Hm. And is that something that you did? I mean you said you said you kind of used the kind of kind of gather the people that you networked with on your way up. And and so how important was that in your, you know, last few years as as a leader?
Darryl Cleveland (18:40.832)
It was critical because even though the the chief of the department may not be on the scene that has affected the the team
When your members are affected, when your your your fire family is affected, it it has a ripple effect throughout, up and down and out. And it's important to
Take care of those that that you're overseeing that you're responsible for. That was something I always took with with great responsibility. I had a I had lives that I was responsible for, and beyond them, they're families. And as a chief officer that became even more so. I think that in a lot of ways there's been a s significant disconnect between the chief of the agency and and the rank and file over the years. Maybe it's always been there.
Depending on the size of the organization, you may not ever even know the chief, you know, or meet him. It's just a reality. so making yourself available to people and letting them letting them know that they are the priority. Without them, nothing happens. That was something I always told my crews was I can give orders all day long, but if there's nobody to carry them out, what what good is it? And so there had to be a connection, there had to be a relationship.
between the leader and the followers and and I I believe like John Maxwell has taught for decades that leaders don't create followers, they create other leaders. And so that was something I attempted to do and hopefully did fairly well. But you've got to have a connection between the the head of the organization and those that are getting the job done.
Conrad Weaver (20:26.546)
Mm-hmm. So how important is it for a leader to be vulnerable with his or her people to to let them know that this stuff affects me too?
Darryl Cleveland (20:41.09)
That's a big key right there. I think that is really key. Having that vulnerability with your folks, being able to tell them that, you know what, this this has affected me also. We have a tendency to want to, I think, be strong. And this goes beyond the the people you work with. It really affects at home. You know, I write in my book that
The things I thought over the years and on my career that I was doing to protect my family, I was actually creating their own traumas around me. At home, I was the problem and had no knowledge of it. I I knew that there were things that I couldn't recognize, things that would happen, becoming this incredibly short fuse at home without any idea why. It didn't have a label, it didn't have a name, and it does now.
But we tend to still do the same things because we're not working on recognizing those things and and being able to stop for just a second and say, Wow, there's something going on and I need to figure it out. And be just having the ability to tell your crew, your family, both of them, yesterday was a really hard day. And I'm not sure what's going on right now. And and that's we've we've made that to be a
A signal of weakness to some extent, maybe a large extent. And that needs to go away. That is a huge part of the stigma. Being able to ask for help is the most
Conrad Weaver (22:22.226)
That's probably hard for a chief of the department to do.
Darryl Cleveland (22:26.026)
sure, sure. Or anybody really. It it doesn't matter the rank. It is hard to do, period. And I saw an interesting reel this morning. This guy that's got reels on Facebook and he's a firefighter from somewhere. but he was talking about how, you know, we trade in the fire service on how and when to call a Mayday when a firefighter's in trouble. He's low on air, can't find his way out, buildings collapse around him, whatever.
We need to teach our firefighters to call a Mayday before the walls are crashing in around because of a mental health issue. And I thought that was a a brilliant idea and and something that should be broadly taught and and adhered to. Mayday is not just physical.
Conrad Weaver (23:15.058)
Boy, that's an important concept. And I think if you can 'cause you it could be you know, because sometimes I mean let me start that over. You know, sometimes it's just the words that we use matter, right? I'll never forget when I had when I was working on my film, I had a I actually had a detective in you know, in in in in the film and he was telling his story about how the chief the the the police chief
Darryl Cleveland (23:28.366)
Sure, sure.
Conrad Weaver (23:42.78)
you know, said, Hey, I have this program I want you to go to to get help, because he was, you know, off the rails. He said, if the chief would have said, I have a psychologist for you to go to, I'd have said, you know, a f you know, a few four letter words and, you know, walked out the door. But he said, because he said, I I have a program for you to go to, it made all the difference. Just the word, that wording made all the difference. And perhaps
Darryl Cleveland (23:58.456)
Yeah.
Conrad Weaver (24:08.441)
Using words like you know, calling a May Day is the thing that works for firefighters and for EMTs.
Darryl Cleveland (24:14.316)
Yeah, I I agree completely. Words do matter, there's no doubt. And having experienced that myself, I think that it may have made a bigger difference back then. It's it's hard to, you know, go back and rewind that tape, but that's very true. That's a great point. And it needs to start early. It needs to start early, not just with those that are aspiring to come into these careers, but those that are around them, their families, whether it's their
Mom and dad or wives, husbands, that that needs to start early because families are ill prepared for what what they're getting into. And in my book, my wife and daughter have a a chapter each and they did a great job. And man, you want to talk about a challenging look in the mirror. Get your family's perspective on what it was like living with you when you were dealing with those things. That's that's something.
Conrad Weaver (25:10.181)
Was there a time in your career or even post career that you had to call a Mayday?
Darryl Cleveland (25:18.392)
There was. There were at least two that I know of. And the hard part was one time I did reach out to the EAP EAP program and
Tried to you know explain to them my struggle and they connected me with a a person that I could go talk to and I had to leave work. I I just couldn't stay there. And so that was one time. Was it helpful? To some degree it was not, but it wasn't ongoing. It was very short term, didn't provide any significant tools to be able to utilize the next time. And there there would always be a next time.
And then there was another time when I called a number and it was a hotline number for mental health issues with fire and EMS folks. And I get I was in Nevada, northern Nevada, and I get a battalion chief somewhere in Maryland who's on duty and he says, Hey, can I call you back? I'm on a run. And I I I thought, sure, sure.
Conrad Weaver (26:32.713)
Calling a May Day here, you know.
Darryl Cleveland (26:33.902)
And and so he called back and then the extent I was expecting an avenue, a a pathway to do something. And I think in in to the best of his ability, he tried to do that. What he did is he sent me via email five or six names of of therapists in my area. Well, no, thanks, but no thanks. And so
That didn't go anywhere. I I literally up until a year, year and a half ago, I had to figure out how to navigate my own mental things on my own. And that's challenging. It's very challenging. well, I take that back. That it happened earlier than that because when we lost our son six years ago in 2020, of course my symptoms got much worse.
and and my wife was dealing with the same things that I was with regard to that loss. We did seek out help and it was literally an ultimatum of you've got to get help and we're not gonna make it. And so we did and and that did help. he he gave me a medication that I still take. It helped me to slow down and and be able to process information better so that I wasn't quite so
quick to snap. so that did help. But the more long term stuff took longer. He he ended up after three or four visits, he ended up moving moving his practice out of state and well that was the of that. So that happens too.
Conrad Weaver (28:19.827)
Yeah. What would you say to someone who's just kind of come into the chief position? What would you say to that person about how to lead well when it comes to mental health and wellness?
Darryl Cleveland (28:34.722)
I would say first off, educate yourself. Educate yourself. Learn as much as you can about this issue. Learn about how to recognize the signs. And it's difficult, if not almost impossible, because so often we hear of of individuals in in this career field that have taken their lives and everybody around them says, we never saw it coming. So it's a challenge because we get really, really good at saying, I'm fine.
And that's not the reality. You know, it the old duck analogy looks smooth and serene on top of the water and paddling like crazy underneath. so that's
I I would say education is a big piece. And then make it normal within your organization to talk about it. As normal as putting on your turnouts for an emergency call, as normal as checking your apparatus when you come on shift. When when I was on the job as a captain, there was a program called Six Minutes for Safety, and it was really built for wildland firefighting, but you could
use it for anything. And so that was part of my morning briefings with my crew. And it helped to build my a awareness with the crew on a variety of things. And then also it helped to pad my training time on on you know if I because it was usually 15 minutes. so if nothing else I was gaining 15 minutes of shift in training to meet my my requirements as a as a captain, shift captain. So
I think that that is something that could be developed for mental health as well, that normalizes that conversation, that makes it okay for somebody to come to the office and knock on the door and hey Cap, you got a minute? Or hey chief, whomever. if we make it normal as leaders to address those issues, the people that are following will do the same. And then we change the culture.
Conrad Weaver (30:39.251)
That's powerful. Yeah, that's powerful. So it it's so tell us about your book and where we can find it.
Darryl Cleveland (30:47.98)
Well, my book is called These Hands. Kinda right there. There we go. those are my hands. It's called These Hands, A First Responder's Journey from PTSD to Healing. And it's on Amazon. you can look it up by title or by my name. And it was a book that was extremely challenging to to write, just getting to the point of being able to write it because
Conrad Weaver (30:52.893)
Yep.
Darryl Cleveland (31:19.296)
my initial thoughts were what would I have to say that anybody wants to hear? And you know, there's I'm just one of hundreds of thousands of us that have done what I did. And but when my wife and a couple of friends, my my PTSD therapist that I go to at the VA, now reframed it for me as a book that could help others, well then it made more sense. And
that was something that I could I could wrap my mind around. So I sat down and and started writing last January and published it the end of July this year and again gave my wife and daughter a chapter in it, which I thought was important because it's easy to talk from one perspective, but when you can look at how this issue affects a family unit, that becomes a bigger deal.
And because it definitely does. It it's not isolated by any means. And unfortunately it's one of those things that ends a lot of families. And I'd hate to see any more of that happen. So yeah, I we wrote it from a family perspective, we wrote it from our faith perspective as as Christians, as you know, Bible believing people, and how literally God saved our family through the things that He did through all the turmoil that was going on in our lives.
And we wanted that message to be out there because honestly, apart from that, apart from him, I don't know how I had to survive my career.
Conrad Weaver (32:58.91)
Wow. So what's the significance of these hands?
Darryl Cleveland (33:04.898)
Well one night, it was a title I had in mind for quite a long time. And one night, I don't know how many years ago, my wife and I were watching something on TV and couldn't tell you what it was, but I looked down at my hands and all of a sudden this just
unshakable sense of I I can't even describe it. It was overwhelming. But I was looking at my hands and and realizing all the experience my hands had had. You know, my eyes have seen things, my feet have walked through things, but my hands touched them. And
the the lives that they've carried. It just was so overwhelming. And we don't often think about that. We think about in our mind and and our eyes and our ears, but our hands. They're they're the instrument that does the work that we do. And so that's where the title came from. And it it really had great significance for myself and for my wife.
And I just couldn't think of a better title. So
Conrad Weaver (34:20.008)
Yeah. That sounds amazing. I can't wait to read it. well
Darryl Cleveland (34:24.878)
Yours is on the way, by the
Conrad Weaver (34:27.688)
Uh-uh. I'm sorry. I that thank you so much. I really appreciate that. yeah, and I really can't wait to read it because I think that perspective, and especially the family perspective is so important. as we know, you know, divorce rates are astronomically high within the first responder community. In fact, one one statistic I heard was like seventy five percent in divorce rate, which is really a shame. so in in
Darryl Cleveland (34:28.791)
Yours is on the way.
Conrad Weaver (34:54.93)
A as you moved through your career and then you went into retirement, w let's talk about that for a a minute. So what so how did retirement affect you when you put off the uniform and you put off the bunker gear and you know, you you still maybe hear the sirens every once in a while in your community. What yeah, how does that impact you?
Darryl Cleveland (35:07.598)
Don't
Darryl Cleveland (35:16.578)
No, that's a great question. And I do write a little bit about that in the book because for twenty, thirty, forty years of our lives, we are wrapped up in the identity of not just what we do, but who we are and how how big a part of us that is. And all the j all the chasing, you know, the this certification, that qualification, all of these things, especially if you've
moved all the way up to Fire Chief, you know, that's that's quite a climb.
There's a lot involved. And and all of a sudden, and the signature by pen in one day and one minute, it's all done. It all stops. And and all of a sudden, who am I now? Who am I going to be for the rest of my life? And it's it's not something we don't have any classes on it. We don't have any certifications for that. you know, with it's kind of the end point that we all know is there, that we all
strive to get to that that pension, that retirement, because we feel like, well, now we can, you know, live. Well, why weren't we doing that before, first of all, but it it's very challenging and and you have to redefine yourself. And you've got to find the some guys are are really good about it and in the ha habits and hobbies that they have that becomes their new
Conrad Weaver (36:30.756)
Hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (36:51.702)
thing. for me, I'm not a real big hobby guy. part of it was how I serve in my church. And so now I'm I'm the safety team lead in my church. And that I think has something to do with the just the way my mind is wired. having the opportunity to train and to lead and to prepare for things that I wish we didn't have to prepare for, but we do today.
It it's it's something that really has to be intentional. And just finding that intention is is challenging enough, let alone getting to the answers. But it can be done. It can be done. And reframing who you are and and it it's a bit of a discovery point, you know. What are my my interests now? you always hear the sirens, you always look at the fire engine and you know, the helicopter flying over, whatever it happens to be.
Conrad Weaver (37:42.89)
Mm-hmm.
Conrad Weaver (37:48.178)
Mm-hmm.
Darryl Cleveland (37:53.283)
But that part of you just never leaves and and I think that there's a a a point too where there's a a little bit of pride in s being able to say, This is what I did. You know? And and if you can keep some of the connection, I think that helps too. I don't stay connected with a great number of people, but there are a few that we stay in touch and we talk and sometimes commiserate because we're all going through something and
Conrad Weaver (38:04.436)
Hm. Sure.
Darryl Cleveland (38:23.168)
I'm finding now that many of us are in some sort of therapy that we just decided we needed some help with some things. And so we can talk about those things, which is hugely helpful.
Conrad Weaver (38:35.284)
So what's something you do today to keep you mentally health mentally healthy and and well?
Darryl Cleveland (38:44.982)
well, I mean first my my belief and faith in Jesus. That's that's forefront. he saved my marriage, at one point, well all the way through. my wife could tell you that. He he gave me the bl the many blessings that I got to experience for sure. So that's a big part of it. Number one is my faith.
Number two is is trying to find new hobbies. things that I can use to
take away some of the the the power, I guess you could say, of the memories. And one of the things that my therapist and I have done is she does what's called EMDR, eye movement desensitiz desensitization response, I think is what it stands for. Yeah. And it's it's really remarkable. It's really remarkable. And and you can do it on your own. You don't have to be there with somebody. I have done it on my own when I needed to.
Conrad Weaver (39:36.874)
I think it's reprocessing. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Darryl Cleveland (39:48.353)
And it does help to it it just helps your brain to recategorize and and reset that memory. And so when needed, I'll do something like that. those times have become fewer and farther between, which I'm thankful for. but you just have to find ways to
I guess I I want to use the word distraction, but I don't know that that's the right word. It's it's more purposeful than a distraction. Ways to
Darryl Cleveland (40:23.554)
Just new things to do.
Conrad Weaver (40:26.869)
So final question, go back the memory lane. If you could think back to your first day when you walked into the firehouse as chief.
Darryl Cleveland (40:34.956)
Conrad Weaver (40:36.159)
What would you tell yourself?
Darryl Cleveland (40:38.774)
I would have told myself knowing n what I know now that I wish I'd known then.
Conrad Weaver (40:45.055)
Mm-hmm. Right.
Darryl Cleveland (40:50.038)
Everything's not a ten.
Darryl Cleveland (40:54.318)
Slow down, take a look, listen more. I made mistakes. I made mistakes, and some of those mistakes affected other people when it could have been more of a teachable moment. Sometimes though we, and this was the fault of mine that led to that, bringing past traumas, if you will, in dealing with others and their negative behaviors into a new relationship.
where had I had I known to slow down it's not a ten take this to is an opportunity to train and educate versus to punish and and the issue was lying I had been burned by some people that that was their normal mo and I wasn't gonna go through that again so y I I would say
Just slow down and get to know people. Give them give them some grace and walk the walk with them.
Conrad Weaver (42:03.189)
Those are important words for anyone to hear, even today. And I think that if if leaders can take that to heart, I think they will find themselves in a better spot as a leader and you'll find people that will respect you.
Darryl Cleveland (42:16.768)
Absolutely. Absolutely. And and without respect for the leader, respecting the position is one thing, but respecting the leader in the position, that's definitely earned and has to be there for the good of the organization.
Conrad Weaver (42:31.657)
Yep. Yep. Very good. Well, so so so a couple of quick questions. Tea or coffee?
Y y would you rather have tea or coffee? Coffee, yeah, me too. I'm I have a cup right here. hunting or fishing.
Darryl Cleveland (42:44.388)
coffee. Yeah. It's
Darryl Cleveland (42:55.48)
Fishing see I I live in Tennessee now and I can just go out about fifty feet from my back window here and wait for the right deer to walk up and that's really not hunting, it's lying in wait for a four legged animal. But fishing.
Conrad Weaver (42:59.369)
Yeah.
Conrad Weaver (43:13.279)
No, d so do you enjoy travel?
Darryl Cleveland (43:13.718)
Well, just
You know, it's funny because I've I've become as I've gotten older more of a homebody. I was gone so much from home over my career on long assignments, wildfires and so forth, that I I really like to be home.
Conrad Weaver (43:31.251)
Mm. Yeah. If well they say Okay. Well, they say there's no place like home, right? Yeah. Well, Daryl, thank you so much for taking time to talk to us today. I really appreciate it and appreciate your insights into all these things and and thank you for your leadership. And I yeah, like I said earlier, I can't wait to read your book and to encourage everyone to get out there and to to go to Amazon and and purchase this book and
Darryl Cleveland (43:32.738)
But my wife wants to travel.
Darryl Cleveland (43:38.166)
Right.
Darryl Cleveland (43:43.608)
Thank you for that.
Conrad Weaver (43:58.079)
So how can people reach out to you if they wanna d if they wanna reach out?
Darryl Cleveland (44:01.934)
So my email address is TheseHands26 at Gmail. And that's about the best way to get in touch with me. I'm pretty quick to respond to my emails and would love to hear from anybody that wants to strike up a conversation. I'm on Facebook, These Hands on Facebook, and I'm also on LinkedIn under my name Daryl Cleveland.
Conrad Weaver (44:23.604)
Awesome. Well Daryl, thank you so much for your time. Yep. Excellent. Let me hit the stop button here.
Darryl Cleveland (44:25.75)
No, no, thank you. I really appreciate it.
