Forging Progressive Fire Tactics with Jake Dickes of Sons of Irons

Nat Kapustin: gonna get one tonight boys? What is going on, everybody? This is Mike Goldstein, Stickers of the Can Report. Nozzle Tov, everybody. I have a great guest with me today. I have Jake Dix in the house from Colorado. And we got he also runs Sons of Iron. And I'm excited to have him on. I've been following Jake for a while now. I love the energy that he brings to his platform and the message that he has as well. And I said, dude, we gotta get you on. We gotta talk about you. So I got you on. Jake, very, very happy to have you on. Thank you very much for being on the CAN Report. Awesome. Thank you for having me, Mike. My pleasure. My pleasure, my friend. Bear with me, everybody. I do have a cold. it's a man cold. I'll get over it. And so if I'm sounding a little raspy, a little sexy, then this is the reason why. So I got a face for radio. So before we get into all that, I'm gonna jump into my sponsors. I actually like have a newer sponsor I love to promote a New England-based group. it is Industrial Protection Services. this episode is sponsored by them. Industrial Protection Services LLC, a family-owned provider of firefighting equipment and safety solutions, headquartered in Salem, New Hampshire. IPS supports fire departments, municipalities, and industry leaders across New England with trusted products, service, and expertise. I also have engine house designs. My man Cody Hill, he is out of Tennessee, a working firefighter who does great things, making hats, flags, stickers, shirts. If you're doing it for your company, you're doing it for your union, you're doing for your department, he's the man to go to. He does great work and he stands by this quality of his work. I also have the Kitchen Table Foundation from Arkansas. They are a nonprofit organization helping first responders and military alike. providing services for anything that they need. If they need mental health services, they're looking for something on the medical side, they're gonna help them out. If we if we need the help, they're gonna be there for us. And what's cool is engine house design teamed up with the kitchen table foundation. So engine house designs makes their shirts, their jackets, all the swag you see online. That's made by engine house design. Love seeing those guys work together. So make sure you're checking them out. With that being said, we're gonna jump into the program. And I got my man Jake. And Jake, I'm going to jump into your bio now. So we're going to get this going. I'm so excited to have you on. And we'll just gonna start doing this. Let me bring this up for you, my man. And there you are. Jake Dix began his career alongside his father in 2003 as a volunteer firefighter in a small town in northern Colorado, immersing himself in the complexities of the job. He quickly became addicted to the craft. leading him to pursue a career position in Boulder County, Colorado for 19 years. Jake proudly owned the Backstep, dedicating himself to mastering fire ground operations before accepting promotion to captain within his respective department. As the founder of Sons of Irons LLC, Jake has made it his mission to continuously develop and deliver progressive fire tactics, hands-on training, and real-world skills to firefighters across the country. Jake is deeply passionate about the fire service, all fire service disciplines, specializing in self-sufficient engine company operations, rapid intervention team operations, and aggressive, effective fire ground tactics. His expertise has taken him coast to coast, while he has had the honor of teaching and sharing his knowledge with firefighters nationwide. He has organized and instructed multiple fire academies throughout the state of Colorado. And has been recognized with multiple citations of excellence for his unwavering dedication and contributions to the fire service. A mentor, a leader, and a relentless advocate for the brotherhood, traditions, and advancement of the fire service. His passion, experience, and commitment to excellence continue to inspire and elevate all firefighters looking to take their craft to the next level. Love it. Jake, thank you, my brother. Dude. Love love love all of it. And I like I said, I've been following you for a while. I love the energy that you got on your Instagram page. I've never met you in person. Only see what you got going on and I just want to talk more about you. So Jake, how did you get in all this? Like w tell you what, what is the Sons of Irons? What is that about? Yeah, well, first of all, I need to shorten up that bio a little bit. I've I've read I've read longer. Yeah, I was listening to it. I was like, holy shit, dude, that's that's a long bio. I'll shuffle that up a little bit. You know, it's funny you say that because when you write it, when you type it you're like, that doesn't look too bad. You know, there's a couple paragraphs that'll work. But then you're sitting here listening to it and you're like, shit, he's still talking about me. Man, how long is this gonna go on? Like, okay, I get it now. This is too long for most people. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'll I'll do better. I'll do better. well, let's see, Sons of Irons. Yeah, it was a a pipe dream. back in two thousand and thirteen, in my area, I noticed just a a severe lack of of passion and a severe lack of dedication and and passion for the craft. So I kinda wanted to make a training group that would that would revisit the training ground, bring passion back to the training ground, bring the craft back to the to the training ground, because we all know that the training ground directly reflects to the fire ground. So it was something that that I was missing in the fire service that I wanted to see. And I said, okay, let's go for it. Let's let's give it a shot. I gathered up some dudes and and then we started hitting it. so it it really has evolved since then too and man, it's gotten busy and and slow and busy again and slow and busy again. But yeah it's been a journey, dude. It's it's great. It's great. We're meeting a ton a ton of people across the country and and learning a lot too along the way. So so y he said it's you began your career alongside your father in two thousand three. So he was a volunteer firefighter as well. Yeah, yeah. So technically I'm a second gen. my father wanted to be a fireman back in the seventies and unfortunately he didn't make the cut with all the the hiring specifics that were going on in the seventies, but When I got out of high school, I didn't really know what I wanted to do. So it was between I was actually just looking to go to the Marine Corps. I was working in a coffee shop in my local town and a volunteer fireman came in quite often who I became friends with. And he said, You know what, before you enlist in the Marine Corps, why don't you why don't you just come down to the fire department, try it out, see what you think? And then within a month I caught my first fire. and my dad My dad was with me, you know, when I joined the the local fire department, my dad said, You know what, I'll reignite that dream too and and come down and join with you. And then man, that that first fire, I was on the nozzle and my dad was backing me up and I I've been glued ever since. Ever since, man. That was something special. I'll never forget that fire. we were doing we were doing weird shit. It was back in the early two thousands, right? We were going to the roof with hose lines and doing all kinds of cowboy stuff. but it was awesome to have my dad there and and backing me up and and him watching me progress in this career. to to now. So, it's funny you say that though, actually, that, you know, he tried to get into the fire service but he couldn't with all the high demands and and 'cause it's changed now. Where, you know, it's a like I keep I can't say it enough. It's a buyer's market for anybody getting in the fire service. Like it's become Really, really easy. especially in certain areas where they're struggling. And it's not to crap on departments or anything, but it's just they know that it's not there's other avenues now, and there's other avenues where you can literally sit at home and do nothing and not have to miss birthdays and and and Christmases and you know, you don't have to worry about cancer, you don't have to worry about all the bad things we talk about and some of the good things. But, you know, back in the day, man, the line was out the door. You know, you couldn't get into a lot of these departments. And now the the that line is a lot shorter. Yeah, that's for sure. I mean, I I work for a single engine department, single engine medic department. and and when I tested for them twenty years ago almost now, there was a state test that we had to take. It was called the Dr. Cog Test. And there was easily forty-five, five thousand applicants taking the cog test. And now it's You know, when I'm testing for my department, it's, you know, thirty, forty people and that's it. So it is it is a different world. And I I it's kinda funny you mentioned that 'cause I was just listening to your your weekly scrap that you just did and you guys were talking about the same thing. That was a fun episode, by the way. I had a blast of that. Yeah, that was a good one. You had a lot of good stuff. Dude, when when shoot, what's his name to ask that question? there's so many. Rob Fisher? Rob Fisher's question, dude. I didn't know how you're gonna handle that and you fucking nailed it. I you know, Rob, he Chief Fisher, he texted me before the scrap was coming and he says, I got a question for you. So and I'm like, man, 'cause he brings the questions, right? Yeah. And I was definitely nervous. I'm like, all right, I know Rob is gonna bring great stuff, but very, very to the point. And they're very gonna be ver it's gonna have to take a lot of thought. You can't just shoot off the hip. You have to really take a second. So I mentally I was prepared for it. I didn't know what he was gonna bring, but I was very prepared for it mentally and I very blessed for that opportunity. And I thank you very much for watching that. But yeah, a lot of good points right there, right? Like it's a buyer's market out there, like we you it's not like how it was before and it's not it's again, it's not that we're trying to reduce standards, but we're trying to get people into this door, into the service and It's kind of like they're just it's almost like a passing phase sometimes. And it's really difficult to sometimes I think that people aren't having that same passion that we maybe had, you know, fifteen years ago because fifteen years ago it was harder to get in the door and now it's so much easier. It's like, yeah, I'll give this a shot, see if I can do it. And if I don't, I'll go somewhere else. Like it's not like it was before, where like that was it. You're gonna be there and that's there's nowhere else you're gonna go. And actually even the backtrack right there, we'll talk about kind of like what Rob Fisher asked me and it will kind of hit on that actually is as you're being very strong in social media presence now, you know, you're using Instagram for good, you're using your social media presence for good to to show training, to show forcible entry. That's something obviously you're very passionate about. You you do a lot of forceful entry training videos. how how do you do you have any issues with it? Have you felt that you've either made yourself a target or have you helped people? Yeah, I mean, we're gonna we're gonna be a target no matter what. I'm never gonna make everybody happy. And and the amount of trolls that are on social media just they they grind at you and they grind at you, grind at you. but my my goal is this. My goal is to to positively affect just one person. Just one person. If I can positively affect their career as a firefighter, that that's a win for me. percent because it's very much possible that that one person is gonna be responding to my house, my kids, my family. So if I can affect just one person in a positive way, then then I've done my job. Everything else on my social media platforms, it's it it's gonna be what it is. I mean, I've got my ways of saying things and sometimes it pisses people off. Well, what really sparked me is that's why I was as I was talking to you, you have the bricks. I love bricks. You got the bricks. And I'm gonna actually let's see if I can find this clip right here. It's kind of buried, but I wanted to bring up the bricks that you were you were talking about, the bricks, you're bringing them up, and I love that you have them because it's such a great way of here they are. So let's see, let me back up. I'm gonna share the page with you so we can all see it. Because I think it's really cool how you did this. Like Like you said, you're gonna have the haters, you're gonna have the trolls, and you address it so well without being a dick. And you know, you're not naming names, but people leave stupid comments, right? You're not wearing protection, you know, eye pro or you're not you didn't wear the right gloves or you didn't gap the door right this way and that way and and so you wrote down on bricks. And just so you're showing the the the quotes that people or the comments that they've left on those bricks. And so I wanna show that to to everybody if they haven't seen it yet. And if you please anybody who's listening or watching, please go to to Sons of Irons Instagram page. He's got a lot of cool stuff on there and it it it actually is a lot of fun. So let me check this out here. Here we go, right here. And we've got the bricks. We'd like to start with addressing some bricks that were recently thrown at our heads from people living comfortably in their mother's basements behind the screen. Here we go. Real doors are different. Drop doors aren't real doors. I like this one. That would never work on a real door. And my personal favorite, as usual, dude needs new gloves. Nice. Now we're very aware that real doors react differently than prop gloves. Excuse me. I love the bricks, man. I got a whole wall of bricks. I love it. They keep you going, right? Like I I don't want haters any more than than anybody else. And I I don't want people in the fire service to be hating on the on brothers and sisters and stuff like that. But in all honesty, man. Throw your bricks. Throw throw at our heads. Take headshots. we love They keep us going. we're not gonna respond to in the comments, but yeah, throw your bricks. Yeah. But I I love it, 'cause it's a article I wrote for Fired Firefighter Nation and talked about, you know, he who without sending cast the first stone or throwing rocks at you know, people live in glass houses, right? Like the glass house rule. You're you've got I was talking about throwing rocks at glass houses, you've got your bricks. And it really coincides. It really it it it lines up to that same message is that man, everybody is the no one's perfect. And the the trolls that are on there and the people that are saying all these negative things, I guarantee they've screwed up many, many times and they still do. And no one's perfect. And when we're writing that stuff on our you know, or on our phones, you know, they forget all of that and they think they're all perfect. And I I love the way you just did that. You you addressed it without having to get into a whole comment war. And it was funny to see. And I th I thought that was very original. That's what really struck me is that as I was watching your other videos, one was your energy again. Like you you the the first one was like you were like amped up at the door, you got your sunglasses on, and you're just you're excited to show people some cool stuff. so do you deal a lot with that still? I mean, like you said, you we have the haters, we have the trolls. are you constantly still or is it you get some good Positive feedback as well. yeah, I mean it it's a constant. The the negativity is a constant. but but it's worth it when you get that one person, right? It might be one out of ten people that that write you a personal message and says, Hey, you know what, that stuff is really good. I used it the other night on a job and it was phenomenal. Or you know, I was for an example, I was teaching a class, I think it was somewhere south in Colorado. We were doing some Rick Company stuff and we were doing the wire entrapment, which to me is it it is what it is. you know, it's just a drill, and we're gonna go through the the five stopgates to get through a wire box, right? But what made it worth it for me was later that week a student that was in the class emailed the lead instructor, Paul Capo, and said, if it wasn't for you and that wire box, I would have been dead because that week he had a job where a drop ceiling came down on top of him and he he was able to get out because of the training we did. So right there, all the haters in the world could come at me. all the haters could could chip at me and and say that I'm dumb or say that, hey, what I'm doing doesn't work in their area. And it probably doesn't, but it makes it a hundred percent worth it when that one person comes up and says, you know what, that really helped me. I couldn't agree more. I I dude I can't agree more with that. I was really just talking about that with a bunch of people. I was talking about about that with Chris Scott from Drag Dragon's Den. that we get the same thing. Like, we get these messages from people saying thank you. And I never post because I feel it might be self serving. You know, I you know, it's it's that's the money my pocket is when somebody gives me a thank you and says, Your message has hit home. It's made me a better person or I I sought therapy or I changed departments or I forced the door a bit better. Like That is that is the feedback that you don't have to go seeking. It comes to when it comes to you like that freely, that's an amazing feeling. It doesn't happen very often, but when you get that that one text or that one that one email, man, it really that's that's five five hundred dollars in my pocket right there. Absolutely. Absolutely. It makes it all worth it. We're making that change, even if it's one person at a time, even if it's over the course of eight, ten, fifteen years, if we can positively change or affect somebody's career than then we're doing it right. The the haters are just gonna come with it. And they fuel they fuel our fire a little bit. They do, absolutely. They keep they keep me driving, dude. They keep me pushing forward. I you know when things get tough, I'm like, you know what? This is gonna be even better because it's gonna piss them off. So but you love from I've seen like you just don't do forcible entry though. You do more than that, right? Correct. Yeah, we started off as as mostly writ company stuff because that wasn't really in our area yet. so when we started Sons of Irons, it was very writ focused. and since then we've changed to a lot of like engine like minimally staffed engine company stuff or or like minimal response area stuff. So like rural areas, how can I get all the tactical objectives of the fire ground completed with a single engine or one or two engines coming split up between 10 to 15 minutes, you know, slow response times or whatever the case. So that's kind of what my district is like. I don't have very fast response. I'm a single engine department with an ambulance. So I've got seven coming off the bat and then we've got about 10 to fi ten to twelve minutes before anybody else gets there. So that's kind of our forte. so that's what I'm trying to like get out there is because I know most of America fire departments are are similar to that. we're not all big city guys. We're not all stacked up on each other. We're not all, you know, I don't have a truck coming for ten to twelve minutes. So how am I gonna complete vent or how can I split my company to to secure multiple tactical advantages on the fire ground. so we we move to like minimally staffed engine company classes. we still jump on writ quite a bit. And then forcible entry is o obviously a very popular one, just because it's fun to break shit. but we're also doing, you know, truck classes, BC classes now or even command classes. We've kind of we've kind of dipped our toes into. so we're getting there. Yeah, we're we're just floating around. Pretty much if if you say, Hey, I want a class in this, we'll do it. Now, where did you develop your skills? decades of of just trial and error. My man. like my bio, my extremely long bio said yeah, I I've sat in the back step for nineteen years, man. It was I I never had the intention to to promote ever. I wanted to ride the back step forever, for my entire career. And that's when, you know, that's when I was honing those skills for all the all the basics of the fire ground, right? Just just mastering the foundations and then And then turning them into something that I can that I can use on the fire ground instead of, you know, whatever a NIFTA book says. Now, do you have you also gone to various conferences or outside trainings to learn a lot of these other techniques? Is because for me, man, like it's opened up a whole new world for me and that's why I can't preach conferences enough, especially getting outside your own state and learning new ways from other people outside of your own home. Because it opened up my eyes and my mind to new techniques, new ideas. And I bring back. And sometimes I might tweak to my area. And, you know, and I'm I'm not stealing their ideas and making it my own, but as as a good instructor, like, no, I want you to bring this back to your department and and definitely do what you like I just said, tweak it to make it your own so it's helping your your area. do you do a lot of outside training and gain some more knowledge so you can bring it back to your company and your department? I did in the in the beginning. So the the most of my back step time, yeah, it was going to conferences, attending conferences, you know, F D I C or or how do you how do you refer to it? F Dick? F Dick. F Uhhuh. Yeah, going to F Dick. firemanship, Key City, all those conferences. what I what I didn't I guess like I would pick up those cookies at the conferences, but I'd really have to bring back like you're saying. to hone them into how it's gonna work for me because you know the the student to instructor ratio at FDIC is you're touching a tool maybe once, right? In the hot classes. So it's not really designed to to make you proficient at that skill. You gotta take your cookies and and take them back and perfect the recipe. so yeah, we we did do a lot of conferences at the beginning. I haven't been able to get to as many as I'd like to recently just because of my promotion. into the position that I'm in now. but I am focusing on sending a lot of members of my department out to conferences. I think a couple of my guys actually saw you this year out at Key City. nice. Very cool. They saw the sticker man. That is and those those are great conferences. I I enjoy the the smaller events. Like FDIC does nothing like it honestly. It's the biggest one in North America and the quality of instructors and presenters and Is the Disney World for the fire service. You know, you can't see it all. you really have to come back the next year because you're gonna miss a whole bunch of stuff the first year. But the smaller, more grassroots conferences are amazing. And that's where I that's where I thrive. Like Key City Fire Conferences, Daggum, Bears of the Oath, Lift, March Mayhem. these are really exciting conferences. Pacific Northwest Fire Conference. God, there's so many. There's so many good ones because That's where you get the intimate setting. You get to you get to do as many reps as you want. Like they have the time. So like, you know, there might be like five people in that one evolution. And then the instructor's like, anybody else want to go again? We got we got two more hours if you want to. And yeah, the with the hungry, the ones who are really hungry, yeah, I'm gonna throw that ladder again. Like, let's do one more turn in in the burn building. Like, this is what you signed up for. This is what you spent good money, and you want to get as many reps as possible. And that's what I really enjoy. I really I really do thrive off of the the small smaller conferences and and I can't preach enough to people who are hungry for l for education and to get those hands on skills. The classroom settings are really good too. Like I love good lectures, I love good presenters. whether it's leadership or water movement or hose work, you know, I I'm a I I love the engine work. So it's great to sit down and listen to some new ideas and fresh ideas and Unfortunately for FDIC, I I couldn't sit in Kyle's class, Kyle Romagus, because it was a it was a full house. And I thought it was amazing. but to be able to catch him in a smaller environment where then you know you can you can really sit there and ask a lot of questions and then really just bend his ear in the drill yard is a cool thing. And I got to meet him at at County Fire Tactics, another great event where you can you have it's still big, but it's a little bit more intimate than FDIC, right? So That's why I've honed my skills and learned a lot. And it's because those instructors take a lot of time because of those grassroots events because they have the time to really dedicate almost each individual person if they have those questions. Now, for you, for your training and and growth, are there anybody or any particular members, if you will, that have really inspired you and motivated you to to be where you're at now, like for the tactics or the the discipline that you have? Is there someone in particular that really motivated you to start doing this? I mean, I I've got mentors through through and through. You know, Paul Capo with When Things Go Bad, he kind of took us under his wing when we brought him out to Colorado a dozen years ago. so I r I really look up to him and his passion. another local guy, I don't know how many people know him, but Matt Cokewell, he is an absolute inspiration to my career. probably one of the best firemen I know. And every time I touch base with him, man, he just inspires me to to want to be better at this job and at my craft and providing services to the community. but the l the list can go on, you know, like every author of this the book of search, right? Like you can you could go on for days about people that are gonna mentor and provide inspiration to you. So you you mentioned Book of Search. do you have a favorite topic in there? is there something that really sticks out for you that you do you use in your department or do you really like you've you've read it and you've you've absorbed it and you use it in your training? I I'm not gonna say a specific name. I thought they were all really good, all the chapters. but anything lately that's been hitting with the fire rescue survey, I'm really I'm tending to gravitate towards that a lot 'cause it's real numbers. I'm I'm kind of a nerdy guy when it comes to numbers and a data driven guy. I want I want my trainings to be driven by data in real cases. so I kind of gravitate towards anything that's putting fire rescue survey numbers in their in their pages. And I think pretty much every chapter had that that data in there in that book. But they were all good, man. They I I can't say enough about that book. And now the second version coming out, I haven't gotten through it all the way, but I'm I'm chiseling my way through that too. Yeah, I I I I love the book too because you ca also what I love about it is that you don't have to worry about sticking to the same you know, page after page after page. You can jump around and just literally learn whatever you want to learn. Just pick a page and start reading and you can you go you're gonna pick something up. You know how to read it like a chapter book. So I can't praise that book enough. I absolutely love it. I th it's kind of the one I carry around with me all the time. now when you're growing up Like again, learning and honing the skill, were there certain people that when you were becoming when you were like in your the the beginnings of it and starting to understand the fire service, and it's not even just skill set wise, but mentality wise of how to be a sir fire service, how to be, you know, serving your your area. how did you comprehend that? And how did you pick up these skills and what did you learn about leadership? Brotherhood, the craft of of the fire service. I mean it's been it's been a roller coaster. I I've worked for for companies and crews that most of the time weren't doing it for me. I'm gonna be honest. Most of my leadership style comes from watching dudes and thinking that's not how I'm gonna do it. and I think unfortunately that's the case for most of the fire service right now. You know, we see these leaders or we see these senior men or or these chauffeurs and we're like, man, what what is the deal? I I can't I can't do it like that. And then when we get into a position of promotion, unfortunately the only thing I'm going off of is what not to do. Yeah. and it's ten it's becoming successful, you know. another aspect of that is to actually care about people. in in in all facets, right? Like care about the community, care about your crew, care about your boss, care about, you know, try to look deeper into what they're dealing with and actually hear them and listen to them. and then after you listen to them, create create movement in whatever they're trying to accomplish, right? So you have to hear them and you have to you have to have a positive movement after you hear them. It's just me being a human. How would I want how would I want people to treat me? unfortunately my upbringing in the early two thousands of the fire service was mostly just getting yelled at and saying I can't do that. And why? That's like my whole the majority of my career until I promoted was why can't I do it? Why can't I do it that way? Why can't I do it this way? That doesn't work for me. How can I get it to work for me? and and I really want to foster that. Now that I'm a leader, now that I'm a a captain, I want to foster you can do it. Let's try it. Let's try it until it fails. Let's see why it does work. Let's see why it doesn't work. Yeah. I've got some I mean, a lot of my questions are rhetorical to my company, but I'll let take take the wheel. Take the wheel. Find out because you're gonna remember that a lot better than me just screaming at you. I like that. And is that you use some of that mentality now or that that what you've learned? In your because you you do leave strip classes as well. Is that part of the teaching that you do in your classes? Yeah. Yes. If a student wants to try something that they've got a wild idea about, sure. As long as it's not gonna kill somebody. yeah, go for it. Let's try it. Let's see what it's let's see what it's about. Maybe it'll work and it'll be phenomenal. Maybe it'll be perfect. Maybe it'll be horrible. but we're never gonna know unless we try it. And instead of just getting barked at, That's not how we learn. It's amazing how you can learn from the most negative people. You know, the ones who yelled and screamed and stomped their foot and pounded on the desk and called you names and everything else under the sun. You learn to be the like probably one of the best officers or or father you know, or husband from the most negative people in your life. And I always talk about that as well, is that I've learned to be a better firefighter and a better person from the most negative people I had. when I started the fire service and same thing in my childhood. I had a bad upbringing and I learned I'm gonna be better than that and I'm a better father and a better husband for it. Yeah. It's amazing how life can do that for you. Yeah. It's 'cause you can go two ways, right? You can you can be you can take that as a crutch and you can be continued on that same cycle that they were and just pay it forward with all the negativity and and and you can say, Well, I learned it from them and that's why I'm doing this and you just yes it's actually weak when you do that. And you could be strong and say, I'm not going to do that. I'm gonna do it completely different. But you can still praise them and say, Yeah, thank you so much for teaching me the absolutely wrong way to do things because I'm a better person for you. They give you something, man. They gave they give you what you're at today. You know? But So it's a roller coaster. It's a roller coaster for sure, man. And you know, it's it's just it's it's a topic we talk about a lot and It sometimes you feel like you're beating a dead horse with the leadership w you know, leadership pole or whip, if you will. And but it's something that's so important, I think, that people that's why people talk about all the time, right? They talk about the leadership side of things, they talk about toxicity and everything else because a lot of people are still experiencing it. And I think it's important that we still get it out. And when you have people that learned the r you know, the the wrong way, if you will, but then took it and made it the right way. It's amazing that we can give that back and and teach people that, you know, it doesn't have to be this way. It's, you know, it's it's not the stone age anymore. We're we're more attuned and observant of our actions and other people's body language so we can understand that they're they're feeling awkward or that maybe they're fe not feeling what we're what we're doing, especially yelling and screaming. So but you say you take you teach leadership classes as well. With Sons of Irons, correct? That you guys do some other not just hands on stuff, but you got some classroom stuff as well. We're we're dipping our toes in it. Traditionally we do only hands on stuff. even in our kind of leadership classes, I get out on the drill ground and we're we're working on tactics and stuff like that from the command car. but yeah, it's it's becoming more popular. have you read Commanding Chaos by Brian Brush and Anthony Castros? Actually I was just talking to a friend of mine because his his cadre is coming up in July in New Hampshire to teach from out of that book. So very excited. But no, I haven't read it. unfortunately I have not dived into it yet. That's a good one. They it It starts off with the history and I think they they capture a message that's really, really strong. and the in the paritum paramilitaristic style of leadership in the fire service today or the transition that we're in. and and it came from the war years, right? The World War II years of you know, people getting drafted and they had to have this leadership style because they were guiding and leading people that didn't want to be there. Yeah. Right. And now we're in a fire service where people want to be there and we can no longer have this mentality of a paramilitaristic, hey, I gotta yell at these guys to get the job done. We genuinely have people that wanna be here, that wanna learn, that wanna do the job and they wanna do it well. Unfortunately, the people that want to do the job well, they kind of they kind of race through things because they're in such a hurry to do the job well. Yeah. they don't focus on the foundations and they don't slow down and really hone their craft. But I Brian Brush and Anthony Castros in that book, man, they they summarized the leadership style that that the fire service is lacking majorly in that book. I would highly recommend it. That's awesome. I I love that you were recommending that book because it's a lot of people have been talking about it. It's funny we were just talking about say with a friend of mine. so anybody's hopefully by the time this comes out we I'm not missing it. But in Keene, New Hampshire, Command Chaos is coming to Keene, New Hampshire. It's actually a free class. Which is awesome. But it won't Castros is not teaching it as part of his cadre is going to be coming up to help teach it. So it's cool that that's gonna be coming up anyways. And I'm really excited for that. I'll be there. It's July twenty first, I believe it is. So if anybody's around, make sure you check that out. But I love that you you're obviously learning, you're you're picking up the books that are important about leadership, and the ones that are tried and true. You know, like you can't go wrong with Castros, you can't go wrong with brush, you know. And there's just so many great education and leadership books out there. We're very fortunate for a lot of these authors that are out there. And I'm looking across from my my desk right now. I'm just staring at Cornerstones of Leadership Right now by Frank Lieb. Like it's just another great book. so it's just there's so many great people out there that are doing great things. And I ha right next to that book is Hope Out of Darkness by Dina Ali. So I have these books in my office all the time. I've loved reading them and I continue to dive into them. And do you have a current book that you're actually diving into now or is is there's anything new? I'll tell you an old book, greatest book of all time. and I I wish I was up in my shop right now because it's sitting on my bookshelf and I would have went and grabbed it. William E. Clark, the the fundamentals of of the fire ground. I've read that book at least thirty times. I've got every page is bookmarked and highlighted. That book is Always on the top of my list. William E. Clark Foundation's phenomenal book. Yeah, yeah, that was that was a good one. I'd I'd like to say that I put up books a little more often, but with my lifestyle and and traveling around and having two teenage kids, I don't get to read as much as I used to. And I'm gonna get back after it here, I think, after they go off to college. How old are your how old are your kids? Thirteen and fifteen. I have two I have sixteen year old twin girls, so I feel your life. man. Just wait till they start driving. It's amazing. Well, they already are driving. They're sixteen, so my girls are driving. Yeah, sixteen. They're driving. and now I'm becoming relevant. You know, they're they don't need me except for gas money now. But used to before I used to be an Uber and I was an ATM and I was DoorDash, but now I'm just literally just, you know, they need money for gas. So that all I am right now is an ATM. So you get to read a lot. Yeah, sometimes well right now it's it's been really busy. you know, it's I've been very blessed with being busy. So with traveling and it's it's been great. So I unfortunately I haven't had the downtime like I like to, but I can't complain because things have been really, really good. That's so you've been everywhere, man. I've been everywhere. I like the song, you know, been everywhere, man. So with you being with me with us talking about that, where have you been or where can people find you? What are you doing? right now it's it's kind of a mix between local and traveling. we're we're still offering all of our classes. I'm working on getting a website up right now. I'm just working off of social medias. but I'm I'm working at you know, at the point where I do get some free time, I start to chisel away at this website that I want to get up. people can reach me at sons of irons LLC dot at gmail dot com. that's the best way or hit me up on the on the socials. Is the best way to get a hold of me. We've been putting in for a bunch of conferences these last couple of years. Haven't gotten accepted to any yet, but we're we're working on it. So most of our travels is just to individual departments and helping those guys out. We've done a couple of small conferences down here in southern Colorado for the fire college. but yeah, it's it's not as busy as I would like it to be. We took a big hit during COVID, so yeah. Trying to get the upswing going again. Yeah, it's definitely tough to get back up and running after s something like that. And but I again I it was one of the things that really stuck out for me was just that you were really into your what your message is and to the training and to the craft. And do you have any recommendations for anybody that's looking to to hone their skills or to maybe if something they're already doing at their department? Like how can you better yourself? There's any tip you can give anybody, like Especially in the fire service, like how can how can someone be better? you can't treat it like a hobby. I tell when I teach at Academy, it's the first message that I say is this is n this is not a hobby. This has to be a hundred percent all in. You're studying every day, you're drilling every day, even if it's alone, you're getting reps in every day. If you're in a challenging environment, like you got a culture that's that's a little wonky at a fire department, get out to the bay and make noise. Hit the door, stretch a line, do whatever you got to do. People will filter out and they'll start training with you if you're alone. reading books, going to conferences, even if I mean most of the conferences that I went to and in my younger years was paying out of pocket. You know, it it I'm sure you're the same way, and a lot of people are the same way. If you've got to pay out pocket to go to a conference to learn new things, do it. You know, if you can financially, do it. It's gonna be worth it, I promise. And then not not taken to heart when you come back from those conferences and people don't accept the stuff that you're bringing back, right? It's it's a long process. You have to do ten pounds of pressure a hundred percent of the time. There it is. Rob Fisher. Rob Fisher, there it is. Rob Fisher. Ten pounds of pressure a hundred percent of the time. You know, it took me twelve years to after going to some conferences, it took me twelve years to change the attack package on our engine. So man, well, you know what? I'm gonna stop you right fucking there because I you're speaking my language right there now, because that's exactly what I had going on my department. But it didn't take twelve years. but I've been on my department for almost three years and I we were changing our attack packages. We've changed our hose loads. we're actually gonna be looking into getting new hoses. And I love that you said that because now it gets me all excited. You've just switched you just switched things around for me because perfect. It's it's important to re stay consistent in that that message and that mission, right? But let's talk about that real quick. To do that, you have to do it in a respectful manner. You can't come in and like shit all over them, right? You can't like, hey, this is all crap, it's no good. Because I imagine when you're going through it, there's probably somebody personally attached to how that hose was or how the the hose lay was. So what did you do to help change that? Yeah, there's there's you're absolutely right. There's gonna be somebody that's attached to it, right? Because they implemented that for the department 20 or 30 years ago. Right. And and you're just calling it, hey, it's just the old guy being stubborn. That's not the case at all. They have personal investment in into that. piece of equipment or that nozzle or that hose because they implemented it in the department. So you got to respect that. and and Rob Fisher is totally right. Ten pounds of pressure 100% of the time. It is the little things and it's usually backed by data. Right. Let's let's get some demos in this place. Let's get some demo nozzles and some demo hose. Yeah. fuck let's get Dennis Legir in here and tell him to say, hey, what are we doing wrong? I didn't do that, but I studied Dennis a lot and his and his stuff. But it's starting small. It's not being you know furious at the old guys. It's it's not saying their shit sucks, but it's saying, hey, there might be in today's technology a better way to apply water. What do you say we look into it? And let's start with nozzles. Once we choose a nozzle, maybe we need to get the hose that goes with the nozzle specifically right and stuff like that and we get out on the drill ground we get the L cart gauge kit and we put all the gauges on and see which one has better flow, which one has better nozzle reaction, which one has the best possible attack packages, all the way down to the pump that we're building on the next engine. How many how many ninety degree bends can I eliminate in that pump compartment? Right? What's the chick swivel look like? All that stuff. All that stuff. And it's not it's not overnight. And I think a lot of new guys that are trying to create positive change in a department, they expect it to happen overnight. And that's the case. It's what's the elephant, right? One bite at a time. One bite at a time. Yeah one bite at a time. And before you know it, you're gonna be the guy in charge of spec in the next engine and you can say, Okay, look at this data, let's implement it. Yeah. Kind of thing. But I love it, dude. That's a great message and it's really key for especially like you said for the younger generations coming in. It's not gonna be quick. And just because you took one c fire conference or read a book or you know, read an article, it's not gonna get you to change the world in your department. But the education, the knowledge, the time in and showing them that you you care about the craft and you're passionate about it. And you know, as you continue to progress in the fire service and you p continue to obtain that knowledge from people who've who've been through it. It's now you're you have that you're building up your ammunition to bring it to and it's maybe next year or the year after that. Like you said, it took you twelve years to to make that change because they trust you now, like, okay, man, the you know, Jake has been he's been working hard, he's been doing these classes, this classes, he reads the material, he's been putting his hands on this stuff and he knows. And it's you can't just come back to your chief or anybody who's making those decisions to go, Well, I saw them do it on YouTube and it looked like it worked. So let's do that. You know, like it doesn't work that way. And And that's and it's really important to be able to because they're gonna ask you the questions, especially any department's worth their weight and salt is gonna say, Well, what if this happens or what if that happens? What about this? And what about that? They're gonna ask you those questions. And if you don't have that information, they're gonna say, Well, come back to me next year when you got that information, right? So it's really key. And I and I I really learned a lot from the ones who are talking about it and preaching about it. I just didn't come up with it either. Like when I come to my department, I come back from these classes with that knowledge and For me, I had those demo days. I had Kevin Fluger come in with Mercedes and I had Elk I had hen nozzles come in and demo that as well. Like and it for me it's if the nozzle's gonna work for my attack package, if it's an elk car, if it's a hen, I'm not attached to them, it doesn't have to be that particular brand. If it's going to make the attack package work and it's gonna make our job efficient and it's not gonna tax the end user, then all right, man, let's let's look. Deeper into that one that's gonna work for us. Like everyone agrees this is the one that's gonna work. And for me, like the the I was doing surveys, I was asking my crews, you know, that's another thing too. You need to have buy-in. If it's Mike Goldstein says our shit sucks and he's gonna get new shit, then then you know you're gonna have 50 other people go, Well, who the fuck's Mike Goldstein? What why are we gonna listen to him? Right? I've been on this department 10 years, he's been on this department three. Why are we listening to this schmuck? But if I ask them, all of them, hey. What do you think about our hose loads? Do you think it works for us? Do you like it? And if they go, no, I don't even know why we have this. And you can't continue to ask everybody as they're doing their work or they're doing their training, what do you think about that? Did that work for you? Nope. Still don't like it. Cool. Let's try this. I've got this other thing. I think it might be really cool to try it. Let's do that. Right. And then they go, Hey, I like that so much. That is so much easier. Retalgical question. Right? Right. Exactly. So You gotta give everybody that buy-in. It's not that she's it's not either it's not just the chiefs you gotta impress. But you it's the people you're working with on the line, right? So you can't just be like coming back from a training and go, Yep, I pulled that Miniman load off this truck and it was awesome. Yeah. Well, you didn't do it on our truck. So how is it gonna work? Right. Right. You're absolutely right, man. it it is a process and it hits so many different angles, man. It's like peeling an onion. it really isn't. In like five or ten years, as soon as a new guy comes around and says he wants to change the hose loads, I'm gonna say, Give me the data because I'm the one that put those hose loads on the rig. Yeah. Show me why it's better. Show me why it's better. And I'll go along with it if it's better, if it truly is better. Well, you're absolutely right. And and the thing is too, is like you're gonna uncover a lot more issues as well, what possibly with your trucks as well. So like Remember, we go to these conferences, the outside trainings, their trucks are set up and dialed in for that evolution. It's already been flow tested and dialed in and the the hoses fit perfectly in the trays. And then then you're gonna try in your department and you're gonna pack it just like that. And well, you know what? Lo and behold, it doesn't pack like that because the hose is different, the nozzle's different, the trays are different. And then now you look like a schmuck again because it ain't working. Yep. You gotta know your trucks and be like, shit, that now I understand why you went to a modified or you're doing a triple layer. Because our trucks can't accommodate the modified or or a regular minute man. You know, those are things for anybody who's listening, watch, especially the younger, like we were talking about, be patient and do that homework. If you want to tra if you want to make a change, know your own trucks. It's not the trucks at the conferences, it's your own vehicles that you are actually working with. Or even your you if it doesn't have to be hose and nozzles, right? Extrication tools, ropes, all those things, right? Any of those things. It's specific to your department. That's why they purchased them, is because it's your department. So that's they did some of the hopefully they did their homework and they said this is why we have those tools because we realize this is going to work for our department. So anybody going into that, I mean man, we could that could be that could be another hour of us talking about that. I love talking about that shit. Your rig and your district specific too. I want to get that in there too. The district is so important, right? Some people They don't they try to change something on a rig or change a piece of equipment and they don't even take in account of the district and the citizens they serve. Right. So if your objective in changing equipment or anything on the engine is does this provide a better service to the community, then it should be looked at, right? Not just, hey, I want to change this because it's cool. I think fifteen sixteenths is is sweet. it needs to benefit the district and the people you serve before you even think about changing any of that. You're absolutely right, knowing your district, and that's why the people either have 150 feet or have 200 feet. You know, it's just yeah, there's they they've done their homework, they've done their stretches, they measure things out, they know the houses, the driveways, all that stuff. So it all takes into account of that. And I I love that you talked about that. Cause again, as you can tell, I get really passionate about that. And I I never used to be that way. I used to accept it. Yeah. You know, it was like my previous department. This is how it's set up and this is the way it's gonna be. And I was like, okay, I didn't know any better. And then trainings, again, especially getting outside your own state, really helped to open up my mind and said, Hey, like you asked, you said earlier, I'm the why guy. Why are we doing this? Why does it have to be this way? Does it have to be a triple? Does it have to be a smooth bore? What's the difference between the combination and the smooth bore? Can I do both? Like they're all great questions. But if you don't have a department that lets you ask those questions, Then you're just they're gonna sit there and accept it and you're gonna just gonna be ignorant to everything. Yeah. Yeah, a hundred percent. And and don't even get me started on the two hundred foot load. I'm not even gonna go there. No, you're not gonna go there? Because I run two hundred feet. I'm sure you do. I'm sure you do. And I'm gonna I'm gonna I'm gonna challenge you with saying why. 'Cause we've always done it. Exactly. Exactly. We have we do have we have some long stretches. We have some In our area, our area is very eclectic. And we have some really long uphill driveways. We have we have a lot of garden style apartments, we have many, many floors. we don't have high rises per se in our districts, but we do have some good far stretches. So the two hundred feet for us is very beneficial to to make those stretches inside of a lot of these garden style apartments, or to go up going up our three floors. actually our community is growing a lot more, so we are getting some mid rises as well. So these are becoming more beneficial for us for having these long stretches. So two hundred feet still captures most of your district? Yeah. And do you have a plan? Sorry, I'm not like grilling you by any means, but do you have a plan for for going beyond that pre connect two hundred? Yeah, we have extra hose on that. Yeah, we have extra bundles. Bundles you could you could pre hook up. And that's why I I I w I was pushing for us to go for a minute man load because I wanna make sure if we need to disconnect that, say we we're not gonna pull the whole two hundred feet off the truck or we we gotta disconnect. I got a shoulder load ready to rock and I got another load that's up on my truck and so we can start stretching even longer stretches. so we have extra shoulder loads in our trucks. so we now we can carry two members can carry two bundles on the shoulders if they need to. So we're we're ready to if we need to continue to have some kind of crazy ass stretch if we need more hose, we've got it. So I asked that because we just recently, well not recently, probably a year and a half to two years ago, we accepted a new engine and we are building it out. And we've got a lot of the same challenges, right? Same long setbacks. And we actually landed on going with a three hundred pre connect. And it's working out really, really well. That's great. That's great. It's it's our trucks are we'd be hard pressed to do it. we run pucks right now for our headquarters station. So it'd be hard to get 300 feet the way our our rig is currently set up. We'd have to do it off the rear. we have a lot of hose on our truck already. So trying to try to figure out where we're gonna put 300 feet either in the the cross lay of the the inside the puck or we put it on the back. So but I'm not pushing for that change. And I right now 200 feet is really good for us. We we're actually very happy with that. And again, knowing your district and and the whys behind things. So I make fun because it's the way we've always done it, but actually it it does work. They've actually done their homework on that and they they it works very well for what we got. The only push I would make is actually I'd like to get a hundred and fifty feet on my bumper instead of a hundred feet. Because I yeah, I'd I'd love to get a hundred and fifty feet, man. I think you can do a lot with a bumper line. You know, you it's an inch or three quarter line. I mean, why not put a fire out with it? It's not just for brush fires, it's not just for car fires. You could if the for whatever reason you have to nose up into that To that area and do the best stretch you can get is off your bumper. Why not pull it and put out the fire that way? Pretty good idea to me. It's a no-brainer. So I mean it's those are things that it's a slow implementation and slow change, and you ask the wise and you be polite and ask just ask questions. Yeah. And they're gonna give you the answers, and then maybe you can come to a middle point and go, Yeah, you're right, or no, you're wrong, but hey, I'll give you this instead. So man, tell you what, dude. This has been a fantastic conversation, by the way. I really appreciate the openness and I feel like literally we're talking on the kitchen table right now. And I hope everybody else who's listening or watching can feel the same. That this is why I love these conversations, is that this is like non scripted, no holds barred, literally just having a conversation about fire shit. And that's what is awesome about the fire service is we can just jump down rabbit holes, talk about nozzles, talk about hose loads, extrication tools, forceful entry, or just life. And that's what this is all about. So this is just entertainment, but this is also education as well. And I really do appreciate the conversation, Jake. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I'm having a great time. So we're winding down. So if anybody wants to get a hold of you, you said a social your social media is the best way. Social media or sons of irons L L C at Gmail dot com. Beautiful. And is anybody gonna be able to find you anywhere anytime soon? no. I'm Taking a little break here, coming off an injury. So I I plan to heal up and then get back after it. Okay. All right. I love it, dude. And again, I love what you're doing on your Instagram pages as well. It's a lot of fun watching your forcible entries, watching your videos. I love again, I love the bricks. I think what you got going on is fantastic. And actually I'm gonna get back on here and I'm gonna share just one more because I love it. I want people to see what you're doing. So let's see what we got here. We're gonna share it and we're gonna go to this one right here. Doors deserve real tactics. Clearly, I've got a residential Hall of Core metal door hanging on a wood champ. I've got a single key and knob and a deadbolt right in the center, and I've got visible hinges on my right side indicating this door is gonna swing towards me. I've got no visible auxiliary locking mechanisms indicating that this is a minimally reinforced door. Our recommendation is gonna be single firefighter forcible entry with just a Kelly bar and a wedge. Let's get to work. I absolutely love it, dude. And I actually I love your locks don't work. His comment all right, I'm done. You can have my account. you can't compete. Comments. The comments are are awesome on that one. Because your locks don't work. I mean, that guy's a solid dude, right? I love his locks. He's a magician. Right? Right? He's so good. He's legit. And he's out there. We we we went back and forth a little bit there. It's pretty good. Yeah, and I he that's what's fun. Like the ball busting is great. I love that people, like, especially on online, though that's the good clean fun, man. The ball busting and having fun with each other and and there's no competition. Like he even said, like I here, you have my account, I can't compete, but you guys are doing great things. And I think I reached out to you before when I saw some of those videos and you reminded me of Macho Man. Like I just want to hear Ooh, yeah. You know, like it's just that energy that Macho Man ha has and the way you came in again with the big block with the big sunglasses. Dude, it's it's awesome to watch and it gets me pumped up to see what you're doing. Appreciate that. Thank you. Yeah, my pleasure, man. So with that being said, I think that's gonna wind it up for the can report for this episode. Jake, I appreciate you so much. Sons of Iron. So if you want to check them out, check them on the social medias. He is working on his social his, I'm sorry, his website. And when that comes up, I'm sure you'll announce that as well, correct? Yes, sir. Alright, so with that being said, you all stay safe. Be well. Here it comes. Nozzle top. Nozzle top. Awesome.