How to Get Financially Fit and Build Better Money Habits

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the very first question is, what's your money
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for? And it's not for shopping and it's not for
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retirement and it's not for survival. It's for
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something else that's really aspirational. And
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I ask this question all the time. And in groups
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of people, they will say things like, my money
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is for experiences. My money's for freedom, for
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fun, for comfort, for beauty. And what I try
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to do is validate all the things. Welcome to
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FinTalk presented by FAKE, the judgment -free
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zone for all things money. Today's question is
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a simple one. Why is it so hard to get financially
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fit? And why is it so easy to put it off? Over
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half of all Canadians report feeling financially
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stressed. And for many, it's not just stress
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during the day. It's a kind of stress that keeps
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you up at night. And when that happens, it starts
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to affect everything else. Your sleep, your focus,
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your health. So there's a clear connection between
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financial and physical health. And the steps
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to get into shape are the same. You measure where
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you are, you set a goal, you build a plan, and
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you stay consistent over time. But it would seem
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for both, life gets in the way. No one wakes
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up one day out of shape, and no one wakes up
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one day deep in debt. It happens slowly, and
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then all at once. And for a lot of people, there's
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another factor, embarrassment. Because it's hard
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to admit that you feel behind, whether it's your
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health or your finances. And that silence is
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often what keeps people stuck longer than they
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need to be. So today, we're going to talk about
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that. What it actually takes to get financially
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fit. And more importantly, how to do it in a
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way that makes it stick. I'm joined today by
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two people who have spent their entire careers
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helping Canadians navigate exactly this. Bruce
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Sellery is a personal finance expert and the
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CEO of Credit Canada, the country's first and
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longest standing nonprofit credit counseling
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agency. He's also the host of Moolala, Money
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Made Simple, and a bestselling author focused
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on helping people get out of debt and back into
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life. Lisa Hannam is an award -winning journalist
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and editor with over two decades of experience
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covering personal, finance, health, and consumer
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lifestyle. She's currently the editor -in -chief
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of The Get at Neo and previously at Money Sense.
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So let's get into it. I want a washboard abs,
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but finances. We will deliver. Is that a realistic
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goal? Is that possible? It's possible, but I
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love the metaphor of fitness, right? I think
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what I would add as an overlay is what's fit
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look like for you? I will never have a washboard
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abs. I will never have that. And I actually don't
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aspire to have that. But I am someone who does
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something active every single day. And I think
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what financial fitness looks like for person
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A is quite different than person B. So great
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metaphor, but you referenced goals. Let's have
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people identify a goal that resonates for them
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and then start working on a plan that works for
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them. I think it's the same, right? When I think
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of going to the gym, I'm like, oh, I'm going
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to get washboard abs day one. But turns out I
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need to learn how to walk. Yeah. Like I'm still
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in the early stages of conditioning and breathing
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and all of that. So do you think, and I think
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that embarrassment we talked about a little bit,
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do you think this myth of perfection gets in
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the way? Like a lot of times people don't begin.
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Like, you know, I don't go to the gym because
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I'm like, you know, I need to be ready in shape.
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I need to look good. I need to have the right
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gym wear. Is it the same for finances? Like kind
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of like going to the dentist, you want to have
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perfect teeth before you even get there? Yeah,
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no, definitely. I think the analogy is so good,
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but it can also like flip to the wrong side of
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things where you become too obsessed. Right.
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Like the not wanting to spend on certain things
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or like getting into that whole like. five dollar
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a latte thing where it ends up being a distraction.
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But really, the whole goal with finance, with
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health is to just feel good and sleep at night.
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Right. And so that comes from what you just said,
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like consistency and making sure that you're
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making decisions that make sense for you and
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your financial situation. And is part of it,
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you know, we touched on it, goals. Is that where
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I should start? Like where is the best place
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to start if I want to get financially fit? There's
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one step before goals. Okay. We call it lay the
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foundation. So here are the five steps for us
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at Credit Canada. Lay the foundation, determine
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what you want, develop the plan, take action,
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stay engaged. Five steps, always the same, no
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matter who you are or where you are in your life.
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But laying the foundation is starting to get
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a sense for the insights that are relevant to
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you as a human being that are quite different
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from me. The first question is, what's your money
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for? What's the purpose of it? And let's use
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the exercise analogy. If we say, why do you exercise?
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You go to a room and you say, hey, everybody
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who exercises, raise your hand. Why do you exercise?
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And they will come up with really personal answers.
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And there'll be things like, I want the challenge
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of running an Ironman. I want to be alive for
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my grandkids. I want to experience the world
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through hiking. I am someone with a mirror and
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I want to have the ego benefit of the washboard
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abs or whatever. And then one of my favorite
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headlines on this, I love, it was a Globe and
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Mail article. And the headline said, I run. So
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I can drink. And there are people who exercise
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to offset some of their vices. So when you've
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got a group of people who exercise and you ask
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them this question, they'll each have their own
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very specific answer. If they don't have an answer,
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they don't exercise. Someone who has a context
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for exercise that is like exercise is for torture.
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And you know, these people who look at you and
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think, why would you ever do that? It's so painful.
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I will never see them at the gym because they
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don't have an answer to that question that empowers
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them and has them act. So if we bring that to
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personal finance, the very first question is,
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what's your money for? And it's not for shopping
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and it's not for retirement and it's not for
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survival. It's for something else that's really
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aspirational. And I ask this question all the
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time. And in groups of people, they will say
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things like, my money is for experiences. My
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money is for freedom, for fun, for comfort, for
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beauty. And what I try to do is validate all
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the things. Like, let's not judge all the things.
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If someone says for beauty, then I'll say, you
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know, maybe that's your home. Maybe it's a full
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scale renovation of your face. And you are just
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going to do all the things. You are going to
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pay all the money for all the things on your
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face. No judgment. And when people find that,
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it does a couple of things. One, it shifts the
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conversation. It gives them language. So we're
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not talking about the TFSA and tags. Right, right,
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right. Oh my God, I hate all that. It's so boring.
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It's so boring. But I love adventure and freedom
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and fun. So it shifts the conversation, gives
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you different language. It's also a check for
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your behavior. So if you're saying, well, I'm
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really committed to freedom and yet you're working
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flat out to pay for a mortgage for a big house,
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it's like, well, you're not behaving in a way
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that's consistent with your values. So there's
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lots of reasons why the very first question needs
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to be, what is your money for? So there's a Canadian
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actually that talked a lot about the myth of
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discipline. especially when it comes to working
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out. And I think it applies so well into financial
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health as well, where people often think, oh,
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if only I was more disciplined. And people are
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so quick to criticize themselves. Like, oh, if
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only I had more self -control. And what it comes
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down to what you just said is it starts with
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what you love. And the discipline is just a system
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that follows. It's not something that you can
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just enforce on yourself. And this is, you know,
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proven when it comes to getting into physical
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shape, like you just said. I think it's a great
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learning for us when it gets into financial.
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It's also the easy way out. If only I had discipline.
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If only I had motivation. Yeah, it's not my fault.
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So we absolve ourselves of accountability left,
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right and center. We do it everywhere, by the
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way. Like it's why I. I have an entire box of
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ice cream sandwiches in my freezer and I can
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justify consuming those on the daily, maybe multiple
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times a day. But I hope at least that my self
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-awareness is such that I know I'm deluding myself.
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Like I don't deserve that more than anybody else.
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I just want it and I'm going to have it and there's
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no guilt. Yeah. Lisa, do you feel that having
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these temptations the same way for physical as
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well as financial? you know, don't make it easy
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for yourself to buy not paint later as an example.
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Like, is that an example of having ice cream
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sandwiches around? I think you can, to your point,
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you can argue yourself into any sort of corner.
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Yeah. I think what the step is, though, is recognizing
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where you want to be and how to get there and
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the way to get there that you're actually going
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to enjoy it. So just as you would like decide
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to like do Pilates or because everybody's doing
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it or. You want to run the Ironman or whatever
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it is. Like if you're not going to enjoy it,
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if you're not going to actually do it every day,
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you're never going to get to that end goal. So
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it's really about like taking that goal and breaking
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it down into steps that are actually doable and
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sustainable for you every day. Like consistency,
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as any trainer will tell you, is key. So is the
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pre -commitment important? Like I think a lot
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of times when people want to get into shape,
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they're like, tell people you're going to run
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a half marathon. Tell everybody. And now you're
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like, I got to do it. Do you think that should
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apply to financials as well? I feel like Gen
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Z is telling us to do that with loud budgeting.
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Yeah, in some ways they are for sure. Yeah. Yeah.
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There's definitely a lot more conversation happening
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around money. And at midnight, you know, you
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get together, you pay your bills together. Yeah.
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I think there's a helpful distinction between
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financial fitness and physical fitness in that
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it is harder to engage your ego in matters of
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money than in physical exercise because our culture
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is set up to reward the people who look great
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reward the people who go to the gym and all that
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our society is not set up to report the people
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maybe loud budgeting is one example but in our
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culture writ large it's actually kind of nerdy
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to focus on personal finance. As cool as Lisa
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and I, and of course you are, you're like, oh
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my God, that's sort of YOLO. You only live once.
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Go to Thailand. It's like, okay, sure, go to
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Thailand. You can only YOLO once. You can only
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once. Whereas I'm busy YOLOing every single year
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from now until the time I'm 90. So there is a
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disconnect there in terms of the social media
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wow of having that killer bod and the social
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media wow of having a fully maxed out. First
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home savings account, TFSA and RSP doesn't quite
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have the same thing. And it is in the context
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of this broader cultural taboo around money.
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So I love that we're having this conversation.
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Our listeners are engaging in this conversation.
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But if I could snap my fingers and say one thing
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or do one thing, it would be to have people have
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some more ease to talk about money. No one's
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going to die if you bring it up. It's going to
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be fine. What do you think holds people back?
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Like we did a survey where we said, you know,
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do you think we should talk more about money?
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And 1 ,500 Canadians, 90 % of them said, yes,
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I want to talk more about money. And why don't
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they? Two things. Number one is the cultural
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taboo. So it's not appropriate. And number two,
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there isn't a mechanism for it. So one of the
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things that we work really hard at at Credit
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Canada is building community. And why do we do
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that? Because it's the killer app. It's the magic.
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And community provides three things. Support.
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ideas and accountability. And then think about
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so many things in the world of physical fitness.
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It's so easy to find community. You want to join
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community and Pilates, go to the thing you weight
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watchers, you go to the easy, easy, easy. In
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personal finance, it's virtually impossible.
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And the one place where people are like, oh yeah,
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that exists is an investment club. Here's the
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problem. Investment clubs are way too sophisticated
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for most people. You need something super simple,
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like, you know, something that's going to help
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you and your 10 closest friends or five closest
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friends. budget sustainably over the course of
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time. It's less, wow, and also we feel like we
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cannot reach out to other people in our world
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who are going through tough times when those
00:11:35.899 --> 00:11:38.139
tough times have a financial angle. And the example
00:11:38.139 --> 00:11:40.559
that I would give is people who are dealing with
00:11:40.559 --> 00:11:43.379
a physical health issue like cancer, I think
00:11:43.379 --> 00:11:45.259
most of us know what to do. We're gonna join
00:11:45.259 --> 00:11:47.019
the chemo carpool, we're doing the meal train,
00:11:47.179 --> 00:11:48.779
we're delivering the lasagna, we're doing all
00:11:48.779 --> 00:11:50.620
the things, we're shaving their head, we're hooray,
00:11:50.620 --> 00:11:52.000
we're going wig shopping, doing all the things.
00:11:52.379 --> 00:11:54.500
Someone's dealing with a financial crisis and
00:11:54.500 --> 00:11:57.620
we are completely shut down. We don't know how
00:11:57.620 --> 00:11:59.759
to engage with them. And it's such a missed opportunity.
00:12:00.120 --> 00:12:04.240
Yeah. And Lisa, you have a lot of readers for
00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:06.820
both at Neo and previously at MoneySense. Do
00:12:06.820 --> 00:12:09.039
you find that what people engage with online
00:12:09.039 --> 00:12:11.679
has surprised you or how you talk to them and
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:13.779
get them to actually pay attention? Like, is
00:12:13.779 --> 00:12:15.919
it just in one year or in one eye and through
00:12:15.919 --> 00:12:18.679
the out? Like, how do you reconcile that? The
00:12:18.679 --> 00:12:21.259
most popular content I have ever, ever worked
00:12:21.259 --> 00:12:24.080
on is always reader questions. And they're usually
00:12:24.080 --> 00:12:27.419
very specific and very niche. And it's very much
00:12:27.419 --> 00:12:30.019
like this is my situation and I just need a little
00:12:30.019 --> 00:12:33.139
bit of help. And that has always been the most
00:12:33.139 --> 00:12:35.120
popular content. And I think people are just
00:12:35.120 --> 00:12:37.440
looking. They're hungry for financial information.
00:12:38.279 --> 00:12:41.419
Yes. And they're hungry to be seen. And when
00:12:41.419 --> 00:12:43.100
you read those reader questions, you're like,
00:12:43.179 --> 00:12:46.259
either I am that person, I am the same as that
00:12:46.259 --> 00:12:48.539
person, and I feel so validated that my story
00:12:48.539 --> 00:12:51.460
is being talked about in a public way, or...
00:12:51.820 --> 00:12:55.179
I am so much better than that person. I am amazing.
00:12:55.460 --> 00:12:58.580
Oh my God, you're welcome world. So we read those
00:12:58.580 --> 00:13:01.039
things and we think at least it's not that bad.
00:13:01.039 --> 00:13:03.259
We're level setting. We're like, where do I rank?
00:13:03.480 --> 00:13:06.440
We're just rank ordering ourselves. And is it
00:13:06.440 --> 00:13:08.279
also a sense of community though with the reader
00:13:08.279 --> 00:13:10.100
questions? Like, oh, this reader, maybe I'll
00:13:10.100 --> 00:13:11.960
send one in and I become part of that community.
00:13:12.299 --> 00:13:14.080
So it's that same thing, Bruce, that you talked
00:13:14.080 --> 00:13:17.279
about is we are tribal people and we're always
00:13:17.279 --> 00:13:19.980
looking for our tribe. Yeah, definitely. Definitely.
00:13:20.000 --> 00:13:23.620
I do think you were talking about the shame behind
00:13:23.620 --> 00:13:26.740
money and talking to people. I remember being
00:13:26.740 --> 00:13:30.259
in my 20s and working in journalism, which is
00:13:30.259 --> 00:13:34.080
not a pension -friendly industry. And I remember
00:13:34.080 --> 00:13:35.779
telling a friend of mine that I started putting
00:13:35.779 --> 00:13:38.059
money away and all of this. And 20 years later,
00:13:38.139 --> 00:13:40.100
she was like, I actually opened a registered
00:13:40.100 --> 00:13:41.980
account because you told me that. Oh, that's
00:13:41.980 --> 00:13:44.620
amazing. Yeah. So I do think just talking about
00:13:44.620 --> 00:13:47.909
it is so important. And as boring as like those
00:13:47.909 --> 00:13:50.529
kinds of accounts are, unless we talk about it,
00:13:50.590 --> 00:13:54.149
no one's going to know. Like as much as like
00:13:54.149 --> 00:13:56.590
I know what to do, it's the same thing with diet,
00:13:56.669 --> 00:13:59.210
right? As much as I know what to do, what I should
00:13:59.210 --> 00:14:02.669
do, it's only more like accessible if there are
00:14:02.669 --> 00:14:04.629
people around me that I know that are doing the
00:14:04.629 --> 00:14:06.879
same thing. And do you find that people come
00:14:06.879 --> 00:14:08.779
to you? You're like, oh, you're the you're the
00:14:08.779 --> 00:14:10.740
expert in the friend group. Like, oh, she'll
00:14:10.740 --> 00:14:12.639
know. Lisa will know what to do. Let's go ask
00:14:12.639 --> 00:14:16.899
Lisa. They know I'm cheap, but no, definitely.
00:14:17.120 --> 00:14:20.480
I think like when you talk about it more than
00:14:20.480 --> 00:14:23.899
people come to you as a resource. Right. Not
00:14:23.899 --> 00:14:26.539
that I know everything. Definitely not. But I
00:14:26.539 --> 00:14:28.539
can definitely come from a place of like, yeah,
00:14:28.620 --> 00:14:31.840
it's hard to put money away. Well, Credit Canada,
00:14:31.960 --> 00:14:33.779
we counsel tens of thousands of people a year.
00:14:34.029 --> 00:14:35.629
Literally tens of thousands of people a year
00:14:35.629 --> 00:14:38.070
pick up the phone, call us and our counselors
00:14:38.070 --> 00:14:41.309
talk to them. Personally, on the way here, I
00:14:41.309 --> 00:14:43.429
was answering an email from someone who I don't
00:14:43.429 --> 00:14:46.029
know well, who had a deeply, deeply personal
00:14:46.029 --> 00:14:49.789
issue and concern that of course I'm going to
00:14:49.789 --> 00:14:52.690
help. Like that's easy. I just wish more people
00:14:52.690 --> 00:14:54.409
would be willing to pick up the phone, call Credit
00:14:54.409 --> 00:14:55.830
Canada or call the other resources. We're not
00:14:55.830 --> 00:14:58.690
the only one out there because I think they suffer
00:14:58.690 --> 00:15:01.190
in silence in a way that they don't have to.
00:15:01.600 --> 00:15:03.440
Right. I think we talk a lot about financial
00:15:03.440 --> 00:15:05.960
literacy. I know there's been talks of making
00:15:05.960 --> 00:15:09.279
this mandatory and in the school level. Sometimes
00:15:09.279 --> 00:15:11.460
I worry that financial literacy, a lot of what
00:15:11.460 --> 00:15:14.039
it is today is talking at people and it's not
00:15:14.039 --> 00:15:16.620
really giving them the tools or even giving them
00:15:16.620 --> 00:15:18.519
products that actually solve that particular
00:15:18.519 --> 00:15:20.799
solution they're in. How do you think about,
00:15:20.899 --> 00:15:22.659
you know, I think you mentioned this earlier,
00:15:22.700 --> 00:15:24.850
there is a little bit of judgment. in financial
00:15:24.850 --> 00:15:27.389
literacy, oh, you just don't know better. Yeah.
00:15:27.490 --> 00:15:30.049
If only you knew that you need to stop eating
00:15:30.049 --> 00:15:32.009
ice cream or you need to go work out or you need
00:15:32.009 --> 00:15:34.110
to pay your bills. It's like, I know I need to
00:15:34.110 --> 00:15:36.029
pay my bills on time. Yeah. And there's something
00:15:36.029 --> 00:15:38.049
hidden from view that prevents me from doing
00:15:38.049 --> 00:15:39.649
that. The two things I'd say about financial
00:15:39.649 --> 00:15:41.909
literacy is one, it's an important foundation.
00:15:42.309 --> 00:15:45.269
Think literacy like how to read. Well, what's
00:15:45.269 --> 00:15:47.590
the basis of that? It's the alphabet. And then
00:15:47.590 --> 00:15:50.029
you learn to read and you learn to read a really
00:15:50.029 --> 00:15:54.220
remedial primary school textbook. And then. One
00:15:54.220 --> 00:15:56.320
day you're reading War and Peace, but it builds
00:15:56.320 --> 00:15:58.519
on that. And so I think for sure it's a start,
00:15:58.580 --> 00:16:03.419
but what we need to move towards is the intersection
00:16:03.419 --> 00:16:05.960
of knowledge and insight. Because the knowledge
00:16:05.960 --> 00:16:08.340
around personal finance is pretty basic. It's
00:16:08.340 --> 00:16:10.759
not hard. Like it's really, really basic. The
00:16:10.759 --> 00:16:14.659
insight part and the action part, really, really,
00:16:14.779 --> 00:16:17.539
really, really, really, really difficult. So
00:16:17.539 --> 00:16:19.720
I would say financial literacy, lovely, wholly
00:16:19.720 --> 00:16:22.799
insufficient. So teach it in school or not. Oh,
00:16:22.940 --> 00:16:25.779
great, whatever. But we need to get people to
00:16:25.779 --> 00:16:28.360
the point of insight, which is to say. What's
00:16:28.360 --> 00:16:30.720
your money for? What are the consequences of
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:33.460
my behavior around money? How do I manage the
00:16:33.460 --> 00:16:35.659
complexity so that it fits my circumstances?
00:16:35.899 --> 00:16:38.019
How do I engage the community of people around
00:16:38.019 --> 00:16:41.000
me so that we're all supporting each other in
00:16:41.000 --> 00:16:42.480
a way that makes a big difference? There's also
00:16:42.480 --> 00:16:45.629
a bad branding around the word. financial literacy.
00:16:45.789 --> 00:16:50.549
It sounds so boring. And insulting, right? Like
00:16:50.549 --> 00:16:54.009
I'm financially illiterate. Like who wants to
00:16:54.009 --> 00:16:55.649
say that? No one wants to say that or no one
00:16:55.649 --> 00:16:58.149
wants to be that. And I would say like what I
00:16:58.149 --> 00:17:00.970
see is sure there are people who don't know,
00:17:01.070 --> 00:17:04.319
but to your point is they actually do know. They
00:17:04.319 --> 00:17:06.539
just don't have, for whatever reason, the ability
00:17:06.539 --> 00:17:09.579
to take an action that would make a difference.
00:17:09.660 --> 00:17:11.720
Because I'll tell you, any of the basic financial
00:17:11.720 --> 00:17:14.839
literacy, AI will explain the term, give you
00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:17.619
guidance. That's not hard. All of that is incredibly
00:17:17.619 --> 00:17:21.740
easy. But when I'm in this conversation and on
00:17:21.740 --> 00:17:23.480
TV or on the radio, what I'm really thinking
00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:26.559
about is how do I crawl through the fiber optic
00:17:26.559 --> 00:17:30.240
cable, develop a rapport. With the listener,
00:17:30.319 --> 00:17:33.400
one -on -one, and then as my best friend would
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:37.420
do, in the perfect paradox of tough love, listen
00:17:37.420 --> 00:17:39.660
to them, love them, and smack them upside the
00:17:39.660 --> 00:17:42.400
head. Yes, through the phone. Through the phone,
00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:47.319
in a super fun way, because we need to have people
00:17:47.319 --> 00:17:50.359
stop lying to themselves. So that's fascinating.
00:17:50.460 --> 00:17:52.599
We talk about people being embarrassed, people
00:17:52.599 --> 00:17:55.640
are hiding, people are lying. I mean... we know
00:17:55.640 --> 00:17:57.779
that majority of life's decisions are made emotionally
00:17:57.779 --> 00:18:00.720
and we then rationalize them later. How can knowing
00:18:00.720 --> 00:18:02.799
all of this behavioral psychology is against
00:18:02.799 --> 00:18:04.859
us. People build better financial habits. Like
00:18:04.859 --> 00:18:07.200
what should they do? If there was like, Hey,
00:18:07.279 --> 00:18:09.839
this is, this is the greatest hits version of
00:18:09.839 --> 00:18:12.119
go out there, do this. How do people build better
00:18:12.119 --> 00:18:13.500
financial habits? Lisa, let's start with you.
00:18:13.539 --> 00:18:16.359
I think to bring it back to the whole like fitness,
00:18:16.460 --> 00:18:20.940
knowing what's coming in and out. Right. going
00:18:20.940 --> 00:18:22.640
into your body and like, how are you burning
00:18:22.640 --> 00:18:25.559
those calories? Okay. Um, how is your money coming
00:18:25.559 --> 00:18:27.480
into your life and how is it going out? Like,
00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:30.160
what are you spending it on? I think just even
00:18:30.160 --> 00:18:33.380
being conscious of like what your situation is,
00:18:33.400 --> 00:18:36.119
is the first step of anything because then you're
00:18:36.119 --> 00:18:38.240
able to make decisions and understand what you
00:18:38.240 --> 00:18:40.000
back to your point of like, what's important
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:43.099
to you. Um, then you really can move forward
00:18:43.099 --> 00:18:46.799
towards your point to the goal part. Right. And
00:18:46.799 --> 00:18:49.039
to build on that, what I would say is the next
00:18:49.039 --> 00:18:51.440
thing is developing the plan. And people are
00:18:51.440 --> 00:18:53.380
quite hilarious about this, that you can have
00:18:53.380 --> 00:18:56.539
like actual project managers or people who have
00:18:56.539 --> 00:18:59.240
jobs that require a lot of planning, people who
00:18:59.240 --> 00:19:01.319
are parents. So as parents, we have to make plans
00:19:01.319 --> 00:19:03.259
all the time. We have meal plans, we're making
00:19:03.259 --> 00:19:06.230
plans. And yet it comes to. finances. And they're
00:19:06.230 --> 00:19:09.029
like, la, la, la, la, la. I don't know. He said
00:19:09.029 --> 00:19:10.869
a plan. I don't know what he's talking about.
00:19:10.910 --> 00:19:13.109
He was like, okay, it's really simple. Let's,
00:19:13.109 --> 00:19:15.450
let's use credit card debt as an example. People
00:19:15.450 --> 00:19:18.410
are ashamed about it. They suffer about it. They
00:19:18.410 --> 00:19:20.910
don't know way out, but they haven't actually
00:19:20.910 --> 00:19:24.170
made a plan. So let's say the number is $5 ,000.
00:19:24.369 --> 00:19:26.549
Amazing. That's going to be 500 bucks a month
00:19:26.549 --> 00:19:28.390
over the course of 10 months. How are you going
00:19:28.390 --> 00:19:30.250
to increase income or cut spending to find that
00:19:30.250 --> 00:19:33.029
$500 surplus to pay that credit card down? They
00:19:33.029 --> 00:19:35.849
don't take it through to that level of thinking
00:19:35.849 --> 00:19:38.269
that if it was their job and they were like an
00:19:38.269 --> 00:19:40.750
event planner, there'd be a venue and a budget
00:19:40.750 --> 00:19:42.930
and all the things. So it's like they have this
00:19:42.930 --> 00:19:45.950
superpower and they use it in every area of their
00:19:45.950 --> 00:19:48.470
life except for this one. They just pretend like,
00:19:48.569 --> 00:19:50.210
oh, no, I don't know how to make a plan. Yes,
00:19:50.230 --> 00:19:52.430
you do. You big liar. You totally know how to
00:19:52.430 --> 00:19:54.990
make a plan. So use it in an area that's going
00:19:54.990 --> 00:19:56.900
to make a really big difference for you. Is it
00:19:56.900 --> 00:19:59.660
also like, I think, and I've been guilty of this.
00:19:59.740 --> 00:20:01.519
You make this elaborate budget. It's perfect.
00:20:01.579 --> 00:20:04.000
It's a work of art. And then real life happens.
00:20:04.079 --> 00:20:05.440
And you're like, who was that person that made
00:20:05.440 --> 00:20:08.259
that budget? That wasn't me. That person does
00:20:08.259 --> 00:20:09.779
not know anything about my life. She was clearly
00:20:09.779 --> 00:20:11.880
smoking something. Like, does she not know I
00:20:11.880 --> 00:20:13.839
like lattes every day? Like, how is this going
00:20:13.839 --> 00:20:16.680
to work? Do people try to overdo it? And they're
00:20:16.680 --> 00:20:18.500
like, I'm going to make a perfect plan. And that's,
00:20:18.500 --> 00:20:19.259
again, that method of perfection. That's very
00:20:19.259 --> 00:20:20.880
rare. What you're talking about would be something
00:20:20.880 --> 00:20:23.819
the three of us would do. But in aggregate, people
00:20:23.819 --> 00:20:26.230
don't do that. In fact, they hear the word. budgeting.
00:20:26.490 --> 00:20:28.589
They think that's what they're supposed to do.
00:20:28.730 --> 00:20:30.150
And it's like an ostrich. They put their head
00:20:30.150 --> 00:20:31.930
and it doesn't work. Yeah. And let's, you know,
00:20:31.950 --> 00:20:34.130
come back to physical health here. Dieting doesn't
00:20:34.130 --> 00:20:36.490
work. Yes. No one would ever say dieting works.
00:20:36.569 --> 00:20:39.049
It works for a short period of time, but it doesn't
00:20:39.049 --> 00:20:41.269
work. It's about scarcity, not abundance. So
00:20:41.269 --> 00:20:44.049
if we use that analogy, what really works is
00:20:44.049 --> 00:20:46.410
sustainable spending. This is magic. And it is
00:20:46.410 --> 00:20:49.170
three steps. Analyze, brainstorm, change. So
00:20:49.170 --> 00:20:51.990
we don't want people to, people are horrified
00:20:51.990 --> 00:20:53.809
that I say this. I don't believe in budgeting.
00:20:53.950 --> 00:20:56.950
Right. It doesn't work. What I believe in is
00:20:56.950 --> 00:20:59.069
sustainable spending. Analyze, brainstorm, change.
00:20:59.309 --> 00:21:01.150
So you're analyzing what's coming in, as you
00:21:01.150 --> 00:21:03.130
say, what's going out, where's it going? Oh,
00:21:03.170 --> 00:21:05.130
interesting. I had no idea that I spent this
00:21:05.130 --> 00:21:08.569
on that. Amazing. Brainstorm some ways to alter
00:21:08.569 --> 00:21:11.490
that algorithm or that mathematical equation.
00:21:11.730 --> 00:21:14.329
So that's, I'm gonna work this extra shift. I'm
00:21:14.329 --> 00:21:16.269
gonna get this side hustle and I'm gonna cut
00:21:16.269 --> 00:21:18.369
my spending in this way so that I can eke out
00:21:18.369 --> 00:21:20.849
a surplus, but you're just brainstorming. And
00:21:20.849 --> 00:21:23.589
then the third is commit to change. And that's
00:21:23.589 --> 00:21:26.710
not 85 things. It's two or three things. So it's
00:21:26.710 --> 00:21:30.470
not the $5 latte for most people. It's, oh, I
00:21:30.470 --> 00:21:32.809
have a car. I live in the city. I pay for parking
00:21:32.809 --> 00:21:35.329
and gas. I think I should sell the car. Right.
00:21:35.450 --> 00:21:38.130
Great. Amazing. But before you make that decision
00:21:38.130 --> 00:21:40.450
on what you're going to choose to do, brainstorm
00:21:40.450 --> 00:21:44.470
ones that you would never, ever in a million
00:21:44.470 --> 00:21:47.170
years do. Like in my case, okay, I could brainstorm.
00:21:47.450 --> 00:21:50.529
I'm just not going to travel for a year. That's
00:21:50.529 --> 00:21:54.390
not happening. I'm not doing that. But we do
00:21:54.390 --> 00:21:57.930
not, as a family, almost ever, I would say almost
00:21:57.930 --> 00:22:01.109
ever, order in food. Okay. We don't order in
00:22:01.109 --> 00:22:03.089
food. And other people do that three times a
00:22:03.089 --> 00:22:04.490
week and they love it and it's amazing for them
00:22:04.490 --> 00:22:06.470
and they don't travel. But that's great. You
00:22:06.470 --> 00:22:09.230
make your choice and I'll not see you in Europe
00:22:09.230 --> 00:22:11.319
because you're eating DoorDash and... I mean,
00:22:11.319 --> 00:22:14.119
they're enjoying their 12 a .m. and they're like,
00:22:14.180 --> 00:22:15.960
great, you go to Europe. I'm going to be over
00:22:15.960 --> 00:22:18.779
eating tiramisu. Totally do that. Totally do
00:22:18.779 --> 00:22:21.579
that because it's consistent with what they say
00:22:21.579 --> 00:22:23.720
money is and what they value. Yeah, I think that's
00:22:23.720 --> 00:22:26.299
what it is for comfort. Amazing. DoorDash, you're
00:22:26.299 --> 00:22:28.200
amazing. You should totally do that. I think
00:22:28.200 --> 00:22:30.680
that's another thing like budgets are personal.
00:22:31.000 --> 00:22:33.539
So you go online and you see a template for a
00:22:33.539 --> 00:22:35.240
budget and you're like, oh, I can. And then you're
00:22:35.240 --> 00:22:36.839
like, how do I fit my life into this? And then
00:22:36.839 --> 00:22:39.869
you resist. But it's not meant to be for you.
00:22:39.950 --> 00:22:42.089
It's you make your own budget. And that's the
00:22:42.089 --> 00:22:44.069
personal part of personal finance, right? The
00:22:44.069 --> 00:22:46.130
issue with budgeting is that people just look
00:22:46.130 --> 00:22:49.690
at a month and that is not a true scope of what
00:22:49.690 --> 00:22:52.769
you're spending is. I just wrote an article for
00:22:52.769 --> 00:22:55.430
The Get about like if you should download a budgeting
00:22:55.430 --> 00:22:58.650
template. Yes. And the two experts I interviewed
00:22:58.650 --> 00:23:02.000
talked about. when people most often download
00:23:02.000 --> 00:23:04.440
those budgets in January is when like they're
00:23:04.440 --> 00:23:06.559
the most thrifty and they're paying off their
00:23:06.559 --> 00:23:08.940
credit card from Christmas. And it's not a true
00:23:08.940 --> 00:23:11.319
reflection. You should actually take six months.
00:23:11.930 --> 00:23:14.589
of like tracking where your money is going. It
00:23:14.589 --> 00:23:17.230
includes summers when you are on vacation because
00:23:17.230 --> 00:23:19.750
that's when not on vacation, not on a budget.
00:23:20.390 --> 00:23:22.329
That's when you should be really tracking those
00:23:22.329 --> 00:23:24.849
things. So six, and I think that's where people
00:23:24.849 --> 00:23:27.170
get intimidated by a budget because when they
00:23:27.170 --> 00:23:29.109
do the month, it doesn't work for them. It's
00:23:29.109 --> 00:23:32.549
a fad diet. And then, but. To really get a true
00:23:32.549 --> 00:23:34.730
scope of what you are spending your money on,
00:23:34.829 --> 00:23:37.470
you have to look at it a lot longer and a lot
00:23:37.470 --> 00:23:40.109
deeper. The big question, too, that people don't
00:23:40.109 --> 00:23:43.430
want to answer is, am I living within my means?
00:23:43.609 --> 00:23:45.450
Right. And there's like, oh, my God, I need a
00:23:45.450 --> 00:23:47.730
spreadsheet for that. No, no, you don't. Here's
00:23:47.730 --> 00:23:50.710
the way you do that. Do you have one dollar outstanding
00:23:50.710 --> 00:23:53.029
on a credit card? One dollar. And if you have
00:23:53.029 --> 00:23:54.920
one dollar outstanding on a credit card. You're
00:23:54.920 --> 00:23:56.480
not living within your means and it doesn't make
00:23:56.480 --> 00:23:59.059
you a bad person. It just answers that question
00:23:59.059 --> 00:24:01.420
for yourself. And then you can go back to analyze,
00:24:01.500 --> 00:24:05.039
brainstorm, change. But what I find is people
00:24:05.039 --> 00:24:08.009
leave money outstanding on a credit card. all
00:24:08.009 --> 00:24:10.730
the time. We've normalized it. It's part of how
00:24:10.730 --> 00:24:12.230
most people live. The average outstanding balance,
00:24:12.329 --> 00:24:15.230
4 ,200 bucks. So I will get people at events
00:24:15.230 --> 00:24:16.809
come up to me and say, oh my gosh, great news.
00:24:16.950 --> 00:24:19.089
I got a tax refund. I got a bonus at work. I
00:24:19.089 --> 00:24:21.910
got some other thing. It's 4 ,200 bucks. And
00:24:21.910 --> 00:24:23.509
I'll say, oh, that's so great. They'll want to
00:24:23.509 --> 00:24:26.009
know what they should, should I, is it Bitcoin?
00:24:26.490 --> 00:24:28.970
Is it, what should I do with this money? I'm
00:24:28.970 --> 00:24:31.190
thinking, I'm thinking of, okay, whatever. And
00:24:31.190 --> 00:24:34.230
I'll say, have you eliminated your credit card
00:24:34.230 --> 00:24:36.660
debt? well, no, but it's not like, nah, it's
00:24:36.660 --> 00:24:38.839
only 4 ,200 bucks. Like that is a guaranteed
00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:42.440
return of 25%. Yes. Nothing gives you a guaranteed
00:24:42.440 --> 00:24:45.440
return of 25%. So you eliminate that credit card
00:24:45.440 --> 00:24:48.980
debt immediately and promise yourself you will
00:24:48.980 --> 00:24:51.839
never find yourself in that circumstance again.
00:24:51.940 --> 00:24:54.299
You will live within your means. And if you do
00:24:54.299 --> 00:24:56.720
that, you're ahead of 90 % of the population
00:24:56.720 --> 00:24:59.319
because they don't do that. What do you what
00:24:59.319 --> 00:25:00.940
do you think, Bruce? Sorry, just a minute to
00:25:00.940 --> 00:25:02.740
interrupt. But, you know, in the past, you see
00:25:02.740 --> 00:25:04.880
these photos or you always have this. I feel
00:25:04.880 --> 00:25:07.240
like a Rocky style montage of people cutting
00:25:07.240 --> 00:25:08.900
up their credit cards, freezing their credit
00:25:08.900 --> 00:25:13.180
cards. Yeah, that's not sustainable, right? Maybe
00:25:13.180 --> 00:25:15.859
it's not sustainable. Maybe it is sustainable
00:25:15.859 --> 00:25:18.859
and maybe it's totally appropriate for the individual.
00:25:19.039 --> 00:25:21.279
So going back to what's personal. Yeah. So I
00:25:21.279 --> 00:25:23.700
think one of the things that we have a really
00:25:23.700 --> 00:25:28.369
strong appreciation of at Credit Canada is. debt's
00:25:28.369 --> 00:25:30.849
never the problem. Debt's never the problem.
00:25:30.990 --> 00:25:33.549
Debt's the symptom. So if debt's the symptom,
00:25:33.670 --> 00:25:36.079
what's the problem? And what's the problem for
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:38.440
a lot of people these days are mental health
00:25:38.440 --> 00:25:40.420
issues, in particular anxiety and depression,
00:25:40.740 --> 00:25:44.079
just the way their brain's wired, ADHD. And then
00:25:44.079 --> 00:25:46.319
there's some acute things like job loss and divorce
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:48.420
and all those sorts of things. So if we think
00:25:48.420 --> 00:25:52.940
about that as a context, for some people, they
00:25:52.940 --> 00:25:55.880
know themselves. Actually, abstinence is the
00:25:55.880 --> 00:25:59.079
best solution for them. So they literally know
00:25:59.079 --> 00:26:02.680
that they can't do any online shopping. They
00:26:02.680 --> 00:26:05.970
cannot have plastic. Practically, that's a real
00:26:05.970 --> 00:26:08.390
pain in the butt because so much of our life
00:26:08.390 --> 00:26:12.670
is cashless these days. But I think it goes to
00:26:12.670 --> 00:26:15.730
the person to say, what's my issue and what's
00:26:15.730 --> 00:26:18.250
going to be the way? One brief sidebar here on
00:26:18.250 --> 00:26:22.170
tap to pay. It's an incredible study that's massive
00:26:22.170 --> 00:26:24.190
in terms of the data set, millions and millions
00:26:24.190 --> 00:26:26.470
of users. And it looks at the difference between
00:26:26.470 --> 00:26:28.859
paying with a credit card. a physical credit
00:26:28.859 --> 00:26:32.039
card and tap to pay, the increased consumption
00:26:32.039 --> 00:26:36.599
is 9%. You spend 9 % more just because you've
00:26:36.599 --> 00:26:38.380
got tap to pay on your phone. You can't see it.
00:26:38.440 --> 00:26:41.940
So I don't use tap to pay. I don't use it. Now,
00:26:42.000 --> 00:26:44.039
I'm not someone who has like a chronic issue
00:26:44.039 --> 00:26:48.099
with my spending because I'm me, but as a piece
00:26:48.099 --> 00:26:50.579
of advice to the world, just take tap to pay
00:26:50.579 --> 00:26:52.700
off your phone. I mean, in the past, people would
00:26:52.700 --> 00:26:54.900
say do cash, right? People would say, I'm going
00:26:54.900 --> 00:26:56.619
to get rid of my credit cards and I'm going to
00:26:56.619 --> 00:26:58.960
just pay with cash. And I'm sure I don't know
00:26:58.960 --> 00:27:00.619
the study, but I'm sure just going from cash
00:27:00.619 --> 00:27:04.160
to credit card alone is a huge difference. Functionally,
00:27:04.160 --> 00:27:07.099
it's not super practical. Yes. But you can still
00:27:07.099 --> 00:27:10.240
do it on the major purchases, coffee shops, grocery
00:27:10.240 --> 00:27:11.819
stores. You can still do it. They still accept
00:27:11.819 --> 00:27:14.960
cash. And what that does, the broad thing is
00:27:14.960 --> 00:27:18.000
it reintroduces friction in which friction has
00:27:18.000 --> 00:27:20.319
largely been removed. And this is great. I did
00:27:20.319 --> 00:27:22.779
a segment on the podcast about friction maxing.
00:27:22.859 --> 00:27:25.960
So how do you introduce the friction? How do
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:28.079
I make it really hard to get those ice cream
00:27:28.079 --> 00:27:31.220
bars? Right. Right. It's not so hard right now,
00:27:31.220 --> 00:27:33.680
but it's why I have ice cream bars instead of
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:35.559
a carton of ice cream, because the ice cream
00:27:35.559 --> 00:27:37.799
bars are portioned. Right. So I will have 160
00:27:37.799 --> 00:27:41.640
calories. If I have a tub of ice cream, I will
00:27:41.640 --> 00:27:46.450
100 % eat half the tub in one session. So I think
00:27:46.450 --> 00:27:49.750
what we're talking about is in many ways, automating
00:27:49.750 --> 00:27:52.950
good habits around us. Right. And so if we think
00:27:52.950 --> 00:27:55.170
of how to build financial habits and, you know,
00:27:55.190 --> 00:27:57.390
they always say dieting starts at the grocery
00:27:57.390 --> 00:27:59.349
store. It's what you buy, what you put. Like
00:27:59.349 --> 00:28:01.109
you said, you're getting portion control. You're
00:28:01.109 --> 00:28:03.490
getting, you know, ice cream sandwiches. If I'm
00:28:03.490 --> 00:28:05.410
not buying a bag of chips and I'm not eating
00:28:05.410 --> 00:28:07.829
that bag of chips at home. Lisa, how do you think
00:28:07.829 --> 00:28:10.109
about, you know, automating as much of financial,
00:28:10.269 --> 00:28:12.680
good financial habits? What should people think
00:28:12.680 --> 00:28:14.859
about when they do that? I mean, if there's one
00:28:14.859 --> 00:28:17.539
less decision you have to make by automating,
00:28:17.539 --> 00:28:22.359
like that's key and that's huge. Figuring out
00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:24.619
how much money you can put away and just like
00:28:24.619 --> 00:28:27.519
not even seeing that, making it happen on paycheck
00:28:27.519 --> 00:28:30.160
day so that you don't miss any sort of bill payments
00:28:30.160 --> 00:28:32.759
or anything like that. That's like so huge. It's
00:28:32.759 --> 00:28:36.740
one less decision. I mean, who wants one less
00:28:36.740 --> 00:28:40.619
decision? Yeah. And I think automation goes to
00:28:40.619 --> 00:28:43.859
a broader theme around habits. So we have a model
00:28:43.859 --> 00:28:45.980
that we teach in our financial coaching programs,
00:28:46.140 --> 00:28:49.430
which is motivation, ability, prompt. So any
00:28:49.430 --> 00:28:52.490
habit has those three components. So why do I
00:28:52.490 --> 00:28:54.349
want my child to brush their teeth? Because I
00:28:54.349 --> 00:28:56.789
don't want their teeth to fall out. So that's
00:28:56.789 --> 00:28:59.609
the motivation. The ability is they have a physical
00:28:59.609 --> 00:29:01.710
toothbrush. They have a goop that they put on
00:29:01.710 --> 00:29:04.890
the toothbrush and they, you know, have learned
00:29:04.890 --> 00:29:06.750
the skill. They've got the ability. And then
00:29:06.750 --> 00:29:09.609
the prompt is a song that I used to sing about
00:29:09.609 --> 00:29:11.970
brushing their teeth. And it happened every night
00:29:11.970 --> 00:29:14.390
before bed. And so as parents, we have like a
00:29:14.390 --> 00:29:17.410
framework for how we teach these habits in our
00:29:17.410 --> 00:29:19.329
kids. But if you break it down, it's always those
00:29:19.329 --> 00:29:21.670
always those three things. So as you think about
00:29:21.670 --> 00:29:24.009
your money, what are the habits you want to introduce
00:29:24.009 --> 00:29:26.250
and what are the habits that you want to extract?
00:29:26.549 --> 00:29:29.170
And going back to the whole thing about credit
00:29:29.170 --> 00:29:33.059
cards, if you remove your ability. to spend in
00:29:33.059 --> 00:29:35.980
that way, the habit of online shopping becomes
00:29:35.980 --> 00:29:38.140
so much more difficult. Right. Because Amundon
00:29:38.140 --> 00:29:40.220
doesn't remember your credit card. Your credit
00:29:40.220 --> 00:29:42.599
card's in the freezer, encased in a block of
00:29:42.599 --> 00:29:45.599
ice. And so you're like trying to read through
00:29:45.599 --> 00:29:48.579
the ice. Like I need the CVC code. It's I can't
00:29:48.579 --> 00:29:51.240
see it. So how do you think about the habits
00:29:51.240 --> 00:29:53.259
you want to make sure those three things are
00:29:53.259 --> 00:29:56.759
in place and the habits you don't want? you remove
00:29:56.759 --> 00:29:58.779
one of those three things. You remove one of
00:29:58.779 --> 00:30:00.420
those three things and the habit breaks down.
00:30:00.599 --> 00:30:02.720
And that ties really nicely into like cognitive
00:30:02.720 --> 00:30:05.200
behavioral therapy. Like when you are making
00:30:05.200 --> 00:30:08.440
those impulsive decisions, what is triggering
00:30:08.440 --> 00:30:10.380
you to make that impulsive decision? And how
00:30:10.380 --> 00:30:15.220
can you interject a positive habit? So we profiled
00:30:15.220 --> 00:30:17.700
someone in the get and he wanted to start running.
00:30:18.259 --> 00:30:20.279
We're not a fitness magazine, obviously, but
00:30:20.279 --> 00:30:22.380
when he was talking about habits and he, so he
00:30:22.380 --> 00:30:26.079
put his running shoes in the bathroom. So that
00:30:26.079 --> 00:30:27.759
when he got up in the morning, it wasn't about
00:30:27.759 --> 00:30:30.799
like making the decision to run, but it was about
00:30:30.799 --> 00:30:33.880
making the decision less difficult to make. Yeah.
00:30:33.940 --> 00:30:36.140
It made the ability to run so much easier because
00:30:36.140 --> 00:30:37.279
he didn't have to think about putting a show.
00:30:37.319 --> 00:30:38.539
I know people who wear their running clothes
00:30:38.539 --> 00:30:40.200
to bed. They sleep in the running clothes and
00:30:40.200 --> 00:30:42.039
then the shoes are in the bathroom and then they
00:30:42.039 --> 00:30:44.279
roll out of bed. do those sorts of things. Yeah.
00:30:44.500 --> 00:30:46.180
There's, there's a study also that says that,
00:30:46.220 --> 00:30:48.220
you know, if you partially fill out a form, there's
00:30:48.220 --> 00:30:49.940
like a higher, very high chance that you're going
00:30:49.940 --> 00:30:52.299
to fill the rest out. So I think sometimes the
00:30:52.299 --> 00:30:53.839
automating and habit is kind of like partially
00:30:53.839 --> 00:30:55.380
starting something. Okay, fine. I might as well
00:30:55.380 --> 00:30:58.119
finish it. Yeah. And if we link it to a behavioral
00:30:58.119 --> 00:31:00.920
finance concept, it's one of the ones that really
00:31:00.920 --> 00:31:03.720
resonates is loss aversion. So paying a down
00:31:03.720 --> 00:31:05.920
payment on something, like for example, if you're
00:31:05.920 --> 00:31:07.759
doing a debt consolidation program with credit
00:31:07.759 --> 00:31:11.380
Canada, once you do your setup fee, it's 50 bucks.
00:31:11.460 --> 00:31:14.880
Who cares? you are exponentially more likely
00:31:14.880 --> 00:31:16.480
to follow through on the plan because you've
00:31:16.480 --> 00:31:17.940
put your money where your mouth is and you've
00:31:17.940 --> 00:31:20.819
started. So think about how you can apply that
00:31:20.819 --> 00:31:23.700
to your money, how you can set yourself up so
00:31:23.700 --> 00:31:27.119
loss aversion is actually in your favor. Yeah,
00:31:27.180 --> 00:31:29.000
and you can automate, I think with finance now,
00:31:29.079 --> 00:31:30.980
almost everything in life. Oh, yeah. You can
00:31:30.980 --> 00:31:32.700
automate payments to your credit card. You can
00:31:32.700 --> 00:31:34.660
automate on the flip side investments. You can
00:31:34.660 --> 00:31:38.099
automate savings. And then you can also snip
00:31:38.099 --> 00:31:40.900
the strings of automation on things that don't
00:31:40.900 --> 00:31:42.859
serve you. Right, that's where I was going to
00:31:42.859 --> 00:31:45.700
get to. Yeah, subscriptions, right? Yes. I mean,
00:31:45.740 --> 00:31:48.559
we all need, what's our minimum? Two streamers?
00:31:49.049 --> 00:31:50.789
How many streamers do we have to have? Two? I
00:31:50.789 --> 00:31:52.950
have six. You have six. I have one. But need,
00:31:53.049 --> 00:31:54.710
you need one. So you have to have one. I need
00:31:54.710 --> 00:31:57.150
zero, but I have six. No, you don't need zero.
00:31:57.150 --> 00:32:00.269
No, I need zero. Really? I need at least, I think
00:32:00.269 --> 00:32:02.309
I need two, but I have a teen in the house. So
00:32:02.309 --> 00:32:04.450
I think I need two. But when you look at that
00:32:04.450 --> 00:32:07.150
credit card statement is what you could do as
00:32:07.150 --> 00:32:10.569
an action is delete them all. Right. Because
00:32:10.569 --> 00:32:12.470
you can sign up for them literally the next day.
00:32:12.529 --> 00:32:13.750
It's totally fine. And for free for a week. And
00:32:13.750 --> 00:32:16.450
for free for a week. So delete all your subscriptions
00:32:16.450 --> 00:32:19.920
and just see how that. Feels like that feel.
00:32:20.000 --> 00:32:22.960
How are we doing about that? And and that's a
00:32:22.960 --> 00:32:26.779
way for you to start using all the behavioral
00:32:26.779 --> 00:32:30.819
science to your in your favor instead of to your
00:32:30.819 --> 00:32:33.400
detriment. So this is an interesting point talking
00:32:33.400 --> 00:32:35.799
about subscriptions, especially when you are
00:32:35.799 --> 00:32:37.779
in a relationship. And I think there's a lot
00:32:37.779 --> 00:32:39.559
of studies on the financial and so on the physical
00:32:39.559 --> 00:32:42.940
health where usually you find a couple is fit
00:32:42.940 --> 00:32:46.109
together or a couple is unhealthy together. And
00:32:46.109 --> 00:32:48.369
sometimes I think that's also the same for finances.
00:32:48.430 --> 00:32:51.430
Yeah. You know, you are your best and worst partner
00:32:51.430 --> 00:32:54.190
at the same time. So how do you let's say you're
00:32:54.190 --> 00:32:56.470
one of two and you were like, hey, I really want
00:32:56.470 --> 00:32:59.230
to get in shape, you know, financially. But my
00:32:59.230 --> 00:33:02.130
spouse, my partner, whoever I'm with, keeps racking
00:33:02.130 --> 00:33:04.329
up these online purchases. How do you deal with
00:33:04.329 --> 00:33:07.549
that? Well, so I've been married for 26 years.
00:33:07.630 --> 00:33:10.319
Very, very long period of time. And my husband,
00:33:10.440 --> 00:33:13.319
we're similar in terms of spending, but he has
00:33:13.319 --> 00:33:17.460
no interest in anything financial. So we answered
00:33:17.460 --> 00:33:20.039
this question, what is your money for together?
00:33:20.359 --> 00:33:23.200
We don't have the same answer. But our answers
00:33:23.200 --> 00:33:26.019
have enough of the Venn diagram to be consistent.
00:33:26.160 --> 00:33:29.359
So his answer is beauty. My answer is adventure.
00:33:30.000 --> 00:33:32.279
Travel is a perfect fit on those things. But
00:33:32.279 --> 00:33:34.539
where he might like for something in the house,
00:33:34.640 --> 00:33:37.380
I would really rather not buy anything for the
00:33:37.380 --> 00:33:41.140
house ever. So I think the conversation can begin
00:33:41.140 --> 00:33:44.960
from this. It's an act of creation. A marriage,
00:33:45.140 --> 00:33:47.920
a relationship is an act of creation. And thankfully,
00:33:47.940 --> 00:33:49.619
he's an artist, so he totally gets this idea
00:33:49.619 --> 00:33:52.279
of creation. You're making it up. And so as a
00:33:52.279 --> 00:33:54.359
couple, like, what are we creating together?
00:33:54.480 --> 00:33:57.180
What are we excited about? And it will eventually
00:33:57.180 --> 00:33:59.539
manifest in something that's a goal, like something
00:33:59.539 --> 00:34:02.079
we want to buy a house one day. And so we need
00:34:02.079 --> 00:34:03.980
a down payment. Like you can get to something
00:34:03.980 --> 00:34:06.359
quite tactical. But well, before that is like,
00:34:06.420 --> 00:34:08.960
what are we creating together? Right. And then
00:34:08.960 --> 00:34:11.639
that's kind of the abstract. And then there'll
00:34:11.639 --> 00:34:14.500
be some some more specific things. Because in
00:34:14.500 --> 00:34:17.139
the context of that, so the context is the setting
00:34:17.139 --> 00:34:19.820
in which an event occurs. It is way easier to
00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:22.519
then have the conversation about, so I noticed
00:34:22.519 --> 00:34:25.159
there were some things in the joint account that
00:34:25.159 --> 00:34:28.480
were at this particular store that kind of seemed
00:34:28.480 --> 00:34:32.800
like they might be shoes. So in the context of
00:34:32.800 --> 00:34:34.820
what we were talking about, how does that fit?
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:38.980
Instead of why are you buying shoes? Sidebar,
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:42.179
someone misdelivered a package to my house. I
00:34:42.179 --> 00:34:44.420
saw the address. It's actually like, five houses
00:34:44.420 --> 00:34:47.219
away. I walk up the street, I knock on the door
00:34:47.219 --> 00:34:50.219
and the male, it was a heterosexual couple. The
00:34:50.219 --> 00:34:53.659
male was like, what are you delivering? Honey,
00:34:53.860 --> 00:34:55.960
did you buy another thing? Why did you buy another
00:34:55.960 --> 00:34:58.900
thing? And he was enraged and kind of implying
00:34:58.900 --> 00:35:01.760
that I should not deliver the shoe box of shoes.
00:35:02.039 --> 00:35:04.760
And I said, I'm so sorry. I'm the neighbor. I'm
00:35:04.760 --> 00:35:07.820
not a delivery person. And she felt badly. And
00:35:07.820 --> 00:35:09.360
they had clearly they were about to have a big
00:35:09.360 --> 00:35:11.619
fight about the shoes. Yeah. Incidentally, they
00:35:11.619 --> 00:35:13.400
dropped by a bottle of wine later because they
00:35:13.400 --> 00:35:15.880
were. Oh, that's very nice. So horrible. But
00:35:15.880 --> 00:35:18.900
it was a snapshot into where the communication
00:35:18.900 --> 00:35:22.099
breaks down and where the expectations break
00:35:22.099 --> 00:35:24.139
down. Well, the number one reason to get divorced
00:35:24.139 --> 00:35:26.500
is money. Yeah. I almost look at it from another
00:35:26.500 --> 00:35:28.599
standpoint. And I think mostly because of like
00:35:28.599 --> 00:35:32.320
being a female and like just seeing how women
00:35:32.320 --> 00:35:34.460
can be trapped in certain relationships if they
00:35:34.460 --> 00:35:36.820
do not have any financial independence at all.
00:35:37.000 --> 00:35:40.059
So I look at the way of like, what would happen
00:35:40.059 --> 00:35:42.099
if you broke up? And I know that's not a fun
00:35:42.099 --> 00:35:44.079
conversation to have. And I've been with my partner
00:35:44.079 --> 00:35:49.260
for like 30 years. So it's not a place to come
00:35:49.260 --> 00:35:51.860
from an insecure point of view, but like more,
00:35:52.779 --> 00:35:55.440
are you okay? Will you be okay on your own? Yeah.
00:35:55.639 --> 00:35:58.239
I think it's a very practical question and let's
00:35:58.239 --> 00:36:00.699
do a very obvious link to estate planning. So
00:36:00.699 --> 00:36:02.659
I know that's not the focus of our conversation,
00:36:02.840 --> 00:36:05.539
but okay. So I kick off what you're doing. Yeah.
00:36:05.639 --> 00:36:08.599
And that then has you take certain steps and
00:36:08.599 --> 00:36:10.960
think things through that you wouldn't otherwise.
00:36:11.059 --> 00:36:13.079
And then you put it to bed and then you fantasize
00:36:13.079 --> 00:36:15.019
about how you're going to be 95 year olds. I
00:36:15.019 --> 00:36:18.019
mean, the reality is I used to work at RBC, the
00:36:18.019 --> 00:36:19.739
amount of unfortunately widows that would show
00:36:19.739 --> 00:36:21.300
up and didn't even know the online banking password.
00:36:21.630 --> 00:36:24.769
And it's a very scary time in your life. It's
00:36:24.769 --> 00:36:26.329
a very unstable time in your life. And then on
00:36:26.329 --> 00:36:27.769
top of that, you're like, I don't even know how
00:36:27.769 --> 00:36:30.849
to get to my money. It's hard. Can we bring that
00:36:30.849 --> 00:36:34.230
life stage notion back to your original metaphor
00:36:34.230 --> 00:36:37.489
is how I think about physical fitness today is
00:36:37.489 --> 00:36:39.329
different than how I thought about physical fitness
00:36:39.329 --> 00:36:41.610
as a 22 year old. And it's going to be different
00:36:41.610 --> 00:36:43.969
how I think about physical fitness as a 90 year
00:36:43.969 --> 00:36:46.349
old. It's going to be a big theme for me. But
00:36:46.349 --> 00:36:48.690
how we think about finances can also be something
00:36:48.690 --> 00:36:50.949
that has a narrative to it. It's got a beginning,
00:36:51.070 --> 00:36:53.750
a middle, and it is going to have an end. And
00:36:53.750 --> 00:36:56.369
so I don't run marathons anymore. I used to run
00:36:56.369 --> 00:36:58.190
marathons. I don't run them anymore. Now I'm
00:36:58.190 --> 00:37:00.809
an extraordinary pickleball player. Amazing off
00:37:00.809 --> 00:37:03.550
the charts, which is very age appropriate for
00:37:03.550 --> 00:37:07.469
where I'm by myself. But I hope that at 90, my
00:37:07.469 --> 00:37:09.650
dad still golfs. He still curls. He still hikes
00:37:09.650 --> 00:37:12.349
all over the world. Like awesome. And we can
00:37:12.349 --> 00:37:15.329
think about our financial life as having different
00:37:15.329 --> 00:37:17.809
chapters to it, different phases to it. No, I
00:37:17.809 --> 00:37:19.570
like that. And I also think you love different
00:37:19.570 --> 00:37:21.590
things in different phases and different things
00:37:21.590 --> 00:37:23.789
motivate you. I was just going to say, when you
00:37:23.789 --> 00:37:26.210
first start working, you feel like you can't
00:37:26.210 --> 00:37:29.030
catch up. Like you want what everyone else has.
00:37:29.519 --> 00:37:30.900
All of a sudden, at some point in your career,
00:37:30.960 --> 00:37:32.699
you're like, oh, I can actually afford stuff.
00:37:32.920 --> 00:37:35.699
And then you're like, oh, crap, I have to start
00:37:35.699 --> 00:37:38.780
saving for retirement. So it does change. And
00:37:38.780 --> 00:37:41.139
it's mostly because of awareness of what you
00:37:41.139 --> 00:37:44.920
need your money for. Nobody wants to retire with
00:37:44.920 --> 00:37:50.639
no money. Let's validate the world of the human
00:37:50.639 --> 00:37:54.400
that is very different today than it was a decade
00:37:54.400 --> 00:37:57.920
ago. there is more to want. There's just more
00:37:57.920 --> 00:38:00.099
like it's, and there is, it is easier to get
00:38:00.099 --> 00:38:03.460
the things that we want within 24 hours. And
00:38:03.460 --> 00:38:06.260
there is more access to credit that enables us
00:38:06.260 --> 00:38:09.300
to buy the things that we want. So it's all well
00:38:09.300 --> 00:38:12.039
and good to get super judgy, judgy and our high
00:38:12.039 --> 00:38:14.530
horse about the. personal finances of so many
00:38:14.530 --> 00:38:16.949
Canadians. But let's acknowledge that the world
00:38:16.949 --> 00:38:20.170
and the economy is so different now in 2026 than
00:38:20.170 --> 00:38:23.489
it was even a decade ago. And so, you know, people
00:38:23.489 --> 00:38:24.909
who were born in the Great Depression, there
00:38:24.909 --> 00:38:27.170
was very little to want. There were no credit
00:38:27.170 --> 00:38:29.690
cards. And certainly there was nothing to you
00:38:29.690 --> 00:38:31.849
had to, you know, hoof it to get to a store to
00:38:31.849 --> 00:38:33.409
buy the thing that you want that you probably
00:38:33.409 --> 00:38:35.030
didn't know of and certainly couldn't afford.
00:38:35.190 --> 00:38:37.250
Yeah, absolutely. And I think inflation is also
00:38:37.250 --> 00:38:39.289
real. I think, you know, people think about.
00:38:40.859 --> 00:38:42.800
everyday necessities substantially increasing
00:38:42.800 --> 00:38:45.719
in price. I mean, today, path to home ownership
00:38:45.719 --> 00:38:47.920
does seem like a dream for so many people. And
00:38:47.920 --> 00:38:50.280
it was a given, you know, you did the right things,
00:38:50.360 --> 00:38:51.820
you did the steps. I mean, talking about health,
00:38:51.900 --> 00:38:53.920
right? It felt like in the past, it was easier
00:38:53.920 --> 00:38:55.599
perhaps to get those washboard abs that we talked
00:38:55.599 --> 00:38:58.440
about. And perhaps now we need to like psych
00:38:58.440 --> 00:39:00.659
ourselves differently. On the flip side, there's
00:39:00.659 --> 00:39:02.440
also different tools. And I think Bruce, you
00:39:02.440 --> 00:39:06.219
touched on it. AI can explain anything and use
00:39:06.219 --> 00:39:08.639
that, use that to your benefit. We can automate
00:39:08.639 --> 00:39:11.619
anything. Use that. Use that to your benefit.
00:39:11.739 --> 00:39:14.099
Get out of the way. And here's what I'd say that
00:39:14.099 --> 00:39:18.039
is a contrarian view, is I think our expectations
00:39:18.039 --> 00:39:23.360
have inflated more so than prices. So when I
00:39:23.360 --> 00:39:25.000
was a kid, and I'm probably the oldest one here,
00:39:25.139 --> 00:39:28.420
I would never have expected Corian countertops
00:39:28.420 --> 00:39:30.579
in the condo that I was going to buy at the age
00:39:30.579 --> 00:39:33.079
of 30. Like I lived like a student for many,
00:39:33.139 --> 00:39:35.960
many decades, right? And so social media has
00:39:35.960 --> 00:39:39.019
been, and HGTV and all those things have given
00:39:39.019 --> 00:39:41.739
us so much more to want. Do you know an area
00:39:41.739 --> 00:39:44.480
that has not had almost any inflation? Air travel.
00:39:44.960 --> 00:39:47.059
So the price that I would have bought a ticket
00:39:47.059 --> 00:39:51.039
for in the is almost the same as what I would
00:39:51.039 --> 00:39:54.219
pay for an airline ticket today. Travel is incredibly
00:39:54.219 --> 00:39:56.780
accessible. But the service you receive in return
00:39:56.780 --> 00:40:01.699
has completely. There is a reason. I mean, at
00:40:01.699 --> 00:40:03.199
some point in time, I'm like, I'm pretty sure
00:40:03.199 --> 00:40:04.780
I'm going to be flying the plane. I think that's
00:40:04.780 --> 00:40:08.559
going to be part of it. It's your shift. Well,
00:40:09.159 --> 00:40:10.760
I think it's the perfect time for us to start
00:40:10.760 --> 00:40:13.320
playing a game that we want. I think as we talk
00:40:13.320 --> 00:40:16.230
about, you know. how money is different in different
00:40:16.230 --> 00:40:18.550
stages of our life. We're going to kick off with
00:40:18.550 --> 00:40:21.570
a game we call Never Have I Ever. We'll have
00:40:21.570 --> 00:40:23.969
cards that both of you will hold and I will present
00:40:23.969 --> 00:40:26.489
you with certain scenarios and you can let me
00:40:26.489 --> 00:40:29.309
know whether now or ever in your life if you
00:40:29.309 --> 00:40:32.210
have done this particular activity. So if you
00:40:32.210 --> 00:40:34.329
have, you'll say I have. If you haven't, you'll
00:40:34.329 --> 00:40:36.210
flip it over and say never. All right, we're
00:40:36.210 --> 00:40:39.570
ready to go. First question. Never have I ever
00:40:39.570 --> 00:40:43.530
avoided checking my bank account. So just like,
00:40:43.590 --> 00:40:45.670
I just don't want to know what's in there. And
00:40:45.670 --> 00:40:48.010
I could have been young when you did that. You
00:40:48.010 --> 00:40:50.630
could be older. All right. Neither of you avoid
00:40:50.630 --> 00:40:52.570
checking your bank account. I avoid checking
00:40:52.570 --> 00:40:54.010
my bank account all the time. Go ahead, Lisa.
00:40:54.309 --> 00:40:56.550
All the negatives here are like confusing my
00:40:56.550 --> 00:40:59.909
editor brain. But no, I always check. I mean,
00:40:59.989 --> 00:41:02.489
even knowing if it's like near the bottom, I'm
00:41:02.489 --> 00:41:05.269
like counting down until payday. Okay. All right.
00:41:05.389 --> 00:41:06.829
Okay. How about you, Bruce? I started working
00:41:06.829 --> 00:41:10.380
very, very young. Very, very young. one did back
00:41:10.380 --> 00:41:14.179
in those days. And so I, I felt like I was winning.
00:41:15.289 --> 00:41:18.170
So that's why I'd never hesitated because my
00:41:18.170 --> 00:41:21.250
experience was that I was winning. Now that has
00:41:21.250 --> 00:41:23.610
a flip side is that then you become obsessed
00:41:23.610 --> 00:41:26.010
with building the bank account and you kind of
00:41:26.010 --> 00:41:27.829
forget for a minute that you're on this planet
00:41:27.829 --> 00:41:29.829
to live your life. Sure. And so that's a bit
00:41:29.829 --> 00:41:32.309
of a miss. I went backpacking. I'd saved for
00:41:32.309 --> 00:41:34.610
a very long time to backpack across Europe. And
00:41:34.610 --> 00:41:37.409
I was so obsessed with not spending money that
00:41:37.409 --> 00:41:39.889
I subsisted on bread and water for six months.
00:41:40.010 --> 00:41:43.190
I am not a big person. I lost 25 pounds. Oh my
00:41:43.190 --> 00:41:45.480
gosh. So I came. back it was like have you are
00:41:45.480 --> 00:41:48.039
you okay have you been like in prison what's
00:41:48.039 --> 00:41:53.659
going on but my um need to be frugal was so obsessive
00:41:53.659 --> 00:41:56.320
right that I almost didn't provide myself with
00:41:56.320 --> 00:41:58.780
the necessities of life oh my bad idea I don't
00:41:58.780 --> 00:42:01.480
recommend it one overdraft payment will like
00:42:01.480 --> 00:42:04.260
fix the not looking at your bank account yes
00:42:04.260 --> 00:42:06.719
I think it's the opposite a lot of people just
00:42:06.719 --> 00:42:08.440
avoid it they're like I don't want to know it's
00:42:08.440 --> 00:42:10.199
kind of like I need to a lot of people need to
00:42:10.480 --> 00:42:12.000
you know, get themselves ready to be like, okay,
00:42:12.059 --> 00:42:14.199
yeah, okay, yeah. What's the situation? And I
00:42:14.199 --> 00:42:15.679
think a lot of it is when you're expecting, like
00:42:15.679 --> 00:42:17.219
you said, if you're expecting a paycheck, you're
00:42:17.219 --> 00:42:18.519
like, it's going to look great. You check your
00:42:18.519 --> 00:42:20.219
account more. And when you think it's terrible,
00:42:20.300 --> 00:42:22.139
you stop checking it. In fact, and you need to
00:42:22.139 --> 00:42:23.679
check it more when you're actually not doing
00:42:23.679 --> 00:42:27.360
that well. Okay. So second scenario, never have
00:42:27.360 --> 00:42:31.019
I ever justified a purchase I could not afford.
00:42:31.739 --> 00:42:34.119
So you've got out there and we talked about rationalizing
00:42:34.119 --> 00:42:36.340
maybe shoes and it could be at any point or any
00:42:36.340 --> 00:42:38.840
stage in your life. You're like, I can't afford
00:42:38.840 --> 00:42:42.480
it, but I want it. I need it. I must have it.
00:42:42.519 --> 00:42:45.880
Do you ever, any shoes, any dress, anything in
00:42:45.880 --> 00:42:49.739
life? You have chosen two terrible people. We
00:42:49.739 --> 00:42:52.340
are terrible people. No, you're, I mean, this
00:42:52.340 --> 00:42:54.880
is great. You're living the right ethos, but
00:42:54.880 --> 00:42:56.619
never, you've never been tempted. You always
00:42:56.619 --> 00:42:58.000
look at it and say it doesn't fit the budget.
00:42:58.000 --> 00:43:00.380
Oh, tempted for sure. Yeah? Tempted for sure,
00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:03.699
but followed through on the temptation. Never?
00:43:04.340 --> 00:43:07.360
No. In high school, you talked about working
00:43:07.360 --> 00:43:09.900
young. I calculated how many hours I would have
00:43:09.900 --> 00:43:12.539
to work in order to buy something. And I worked
00:43:12.539 --> 00:43:15.059
in fast food. And a lot of times it would be
00:43:15.059 --> 00:43:19.670
like. That's 20 hours. There's no way I would
00:43:19.670 --> 00:43:22.849
volunteer 20 hours. It's funny. It's the same
00:43:22.849 --> 00:43:24.670
with, I think when you talk about financial and
00:43:24.670 --> 00:43:26.550
physical health, like you look at a burger and
00:43:26.550 --> 00:43:28.090
I have friends that say, if I eat that burger,
00:43:28.170 --> 00:43:29.829
I'm going to have to work out for 45 minutes.
00:43:29.889 --> 00:43:32.349
I'm not going to eat that burger. I just eat
00:43:32.349 --> 00:43:34.010
the burger. I would a hundred percent eat the
00:43:34.010 --> 00:43:36.699
burger. I would a hundred percent. eat the burger
00:43:36.699 --> 00:43:38.300
with an ice cream sandwich to chase it down.
00:43:38.420 --> 00:43:40.559
Would you work 20 hours making that burger? No,
00:43:40.579 --> 00:43:42.639
I didn't. This is a different, this is where
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:44.719
the paradigm, for me, the physical health ones,
00:43:44.820 --> 00:43:46.920
if we were to play never have I ever around those
00:43:46.920 --> 00:43:49.059
sorts of things, I'd be having a very different
00:43:49.059 --> 00:43:51.159
set of answers. So it's funny, like, you know,
00:43:51.159 --> 00:43:54.300
our brain does compartmentalize. Habits do, you
00:43:54.300 --> 00:43:57.260
know, differ. Okay, never have I ever, oh, look
00:43:57.260 --> 00:43:59.619
at this, comparison is a thief of joy, right?
00:43:59.719 --> 00:44:02.420
So never have I ever compared my financial situation.
00:44:03.260 --> 00:44:06.440
To somebody else and felt left behind or ahead
00:44:06.440 --> 00:44:10.139
or ahead. I have totally done this. I have totally
00:44:10.139 --> 00:44:12.500
done this. And I think for me, the circumstance
00:44:12.500 --> 00:44:16.579
is that I went to business school. I graduated
00:44:16.579 --> 00:44:18.599
with people who climbed the corporate ladder
00:44:18.599 --> 00:44:20.880
very quickly and very effectively. I started
00:44:20.880 --> 00:44:23.980
there in a traditional, you know, packaged goods
00:44:23.980 --> 00:44:27.349
marketing job and quit. to start again, to go
00:44:27.349 --> 00:44:29.650
into journalism. Journalism is a terrible way
00:44:29.650 --> 00:44:32.829
to make money. It's terrible, not good. And so
00:44:32.829 --> 00:44:36.489
I intentionally got off the corporate track and
00:44:36.489 --> 00:44:38.989
went back to making much less money. It's all
00:44:38.989 --> 00:44:41.750
worked out for me in the end. But my peer group
00:44:41.750 --> 00:44:44.489
from business school all make a gazillion dollars
00:44:44.489 --> 00:44:46.710
more than I do. And we have different lives and
00:44:46.710 --> 00:44:49.409
it's totally fine. But for sure, I coveted their
00:44:49.409 --> 00:44:51.510
salaries and their homes and their cottages and
00:44:51.510 --> 00:44:54.150
whatever. 100%, that is a yes for me. Yeah. And
00:44:54.150 --> 00:44:56.449
Lisa? I think it's so hard to compare because
00:44:56.449 --> 00:44:59.690
you never know enough about somebody else's situation
00:44:59.690 --> 00:45:02.829
to even know if it's anywhere near what yours
00:45:02.829 --> 00:45:05.710
is. Do you think it's good or bad to compare?
00:45:05.849 --> 00:45:07.980
Do you think it gives you the motivation? Right.
00:45:08.280 --> 00:45:10.559
Like if they can do it, I can do it. Or do you
00:45:10.559 --> 00:45:12.519
think it's it's bad because then you just feel
00:45:12.519 --> 00:45:14.340
depressed and eat ice cream? I mean, I choose
00:45:14.340 --> 00:45:17.039
people to be inspired by anyone who makes me
00:45:17.039 --> 00:45:19.739
feel bad about myself. I'm like, that's the whole
00:45:19.739 --> 00:45:22.840
reason I'm not even on Instagram. So I'm very
00:45:22.840 --> 00:45:25.900
much protecting of how I feel and and what makes
00:45:25.900 --> 00:45:29.920
me make decisions. So I for me, that's I it's
00:45:29.920 --> 00:45:32.340
just not in me to even want to do. And I would
00:45:32.340 --> 00:45:36.219
love us to remove that. good bad dichotomy from
00:45:36.219 --> 00:45:38.619
all of our conversations about personal finance
00:45:38.619 --> 00:45:41.019
because it's so grounded in your choice and there's
00:45:41.019 --> 00:45:43.400
a people who will use like good debt bad debt
00:45:43.400 --> 00:45:46.099
like oh that's good dad right no no there's no
00:45:46.099 --> 00:45:48.460
good debt and bad debt there's high interest
00:45:48.460 --> 00:45:50.860
debt and there's low interest debt that's what
00:45:50.860 --> 00:45:53.179
it is because someone is going to put something
00:45:53.179 --> 00:45:54.820
on their credit card which some people would
00:45:54.820 --> 00:45:57.159
say is bad debt it could be life -saving for
00:45:57.159 --> 00:45:59.079
them sure it could be something that is core
00:45:59.079 --> 00:46:01.619
to who they are to their self -expression and
00:46:01.619 --> 00:46:03.500
i as the ceo of a non -profit credit counseling
00:46:03.500 --> 00:46:06.260
agency would 100 % say they should do that. Like
00:46:06.260 --> 00:46:08.860
I would support that in a certain context. So
00:46:08.860 --> 00:46:12.639
less morality and there is nothing more moral
00:46:12.639 --> 00:46:14.179
than saying something is good or something is
00:46:14.179 --> 00:46:16.760
bad. And compassion for yourself and other people,
00:46:16.980 --> 00:46:19.940
right? Yes. We're on this planet to live and
00:46:19.940 --> 00:46:22.300
to have fun. That's why we're here. I love it.
00:46:22.340 --> 00:46:25.260
I love it. Okay. Never have I ever spent money,
00:46:25.380 --> 00:46:27.619
so speaking about why we're on this planet, to
00:46:27.619 --> 00:46:31.559
feel better. Just to feel better, even if maybe
00:46:31.559 --> 00:46:33.539
I couldn't afford it a little bit. Oh, well,
00:46:33.539 --> 00:46:38.360
that won't make me feel good, though. But let's
00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:40.420
just say you could afford it. So have you spent
00:46:40.420 --> 00:46:42.300
money? Just be like, hey, I don't really need
00:46:42.300 --> 00:46:44.079
it. It's not part of the budget, but but for
00:46:44.079 --> 00:46:47.059
the vibe on a daily basis. I buy lunch. Yeah.
00:46:47.400 --> 00:46:51.360
Yeah. And travel. So, again, going back to my
00:46:51.360 --> 00:46:54.539
travel themes. So there are choices that. I have
00:46:54.539 --> 00:46:57.539
made and will make to spend ridiculous amounts
00:46:57.539 --> 00:47:00.099
of money on once in a lifetime experiences. I
00:47:00.099 --> 00:47:03.380
am going paragliding in Rio. I am going, you
00:47:03.380 --> 00:47:06.539
know, on a helicopter in New Zealand, doing all
00:47:06.539 --> 00:47:09.039
those things because I think the can I afford
00:47:09.039 --> 00:47:12.199
it only lives in the context of the goals that
00:47:12.199 --> 00:47:15.119
you have. I can afford it, but I can't afford
00:47:15.119 --> 00:47:17.739
DoorDash. Right. Because of the choices that
00:47:17.739 --> 00:47:20.679
I've made. Yeah, for sure. And I think. Every
00:47:20.679 --> 00:47:23.019
decision we make with money is about a feeling.
00:47:23.099 --> 00:47:26.019
To your point a few minutes ago of like every
00:47:26.019 --> 00:47:28.760
decision we make is emotionally charged. I mean,
00:47:28.800 --> 00:47:31.099
yeah. No, every decision I make around money
00:47:31.099 --> 00:47:33.800
is so that I feel better about myself. Makes
00:47:33.800 --> 00:47:36.280
sense. Okay, the last one. Never have I pretended
00:47:36.280 --> 00:47:39.360
I was more financially comfortable than I actually
00:47:39.360 --> 00:47:41.599
was. Oh, that's a tough one. Fake it till you
00:47:41.599 --> 00:47:46.400
make it. I would say that resonates for me in
00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:51.000
my 20s. engaging with a financial advisor when
00:47:51.000 --> 00:47:53.019
I didn't know anything. So I was like, oh, I
00:47:53.019 --> 00:47:56.679
felt flattered that the advisor was willing to
00:47:56.679 --> 00:47:58.780
take me on as a client, which I think a lot of
00:47:58.780 --> 00:48:00.480
people feel like, oh, I can't ask the questions
00:48:00.480 --> 00:48:05.679
because we've mismanaged our understanding of
00:48:05.679 --> 00:48:08.199
the client. professional service relationship
00:48:08.199 --> 00:48:10.400
right in a way that we don't in any other thing
00:48:10.400 --> 00:48:12.699
like we don't feel lucky that someone's going
00:48:12.699 --> 00:48:14.599
to paint our house we're like i'm paying you
00:48:14.599 --> 00:48:16.719
to paint my house paint my house thank you uh
00:48:16.719 --> 00:48:19.239
but we feel lucky that a financial advisor is
00:48:19.239 --> 00:48:22.260
going to endure our situation and answer our
00:48:22.260 --> 00:48:25.500
stupid questions like what So eventually when
00:48:25.500 --> 00:48:27.460
I saw the light and had the light bulb moment
00:48:27.460 --> 00:48:29.900
of understanding to see I was not getting value,
00:48:30.019 --> 00:48:33.219
I went back and realized it was actually like
00:48:33.219 --> 00:48:37.079
a really toxic relationship. And I have never
00:48:37.079 --> 00:48:40.079
hired a financial advisor since. Okay. Yeah.
00:48:40.119 --> 00:48:42.039
Because there was just the value equation was
00:48:42.039 --> 00:48:44.250
so off. But when you did meet them the first
00:48:44.250 --> 00:48:45.750
time, you were like pretending to be a big shot.
00:48:45.769 --> 00:48:47.789
Oh yeah, and they were a recommendation. I was
00:48:47.789 --> 00:48:50.650
like, oh my God, I hope they take me on. If I'm
00:48:50.650 --> 00:48:53.389
really lucky, they'll see my potential. And they'll
00:48:53.389 --> 00:48:55.050
take your money. If you're really lucky, they'll
00:48:55.050 --> 00:48:57.010
take your money to answer questions. How about
00:48:57.010 --> 00:48:59.210
you, Lisa? I think on a daily basis as a finance
00:48:59.210 --> 00:49:02.469
journalist, you are, there's that sort of idea
00:49:02.469 --> 00:49:05.150
that we know what we're doing and that we're
00:49:05.150 --> 00:49:07.829
smarter than everyone and we don't make mistakes.
00:49:08.230 --> 00:49:13.110
Then yes, I'm doing this every day. Okay, amazing.
00:49:13.269 --> 00:49:15.269
We're going to close this out. So thank you for
00:49:15.269 --> 00:49:16.949
your time. You've got two more cards next to
00:49:16.949 --> 00:49:18.909
you. And we're going to play before we close
00:49:18.909 --> 00:49:22.170
out our episode, red flag, green flag. So this
00:49:22.170 --> 00:49:24.250
is a surprise. They didn't know about this ahead
00:49:24.250 --> 00:49:27.409
of time. I'm going to read out sentences. And
00:49:27.409 --> 00:49:29.690
now you can imagine whoever you want saying this.
00:49:29.929 --> 00:49:32.070
And you can tell me if that is a red flag or
00:49:32.070 --> 00:49:34.670
a green flag. Okay, red flag, green flag saying,
00:49:34.829 --> 00:49:40.070
I deserve this before every purchase. Red flag,
00:49:40.170 --> 00:49:42.889
both of you, why? Every purchase? Every purchase.
00:49:43.090 --> 00:49:47.710
Yeah. Sometimes you don't deserve it. I would
00:49:47.710 --> 00:49:50.710
say no one deserves anything. Oh, that's deep.
00:49:50.969 --> 00:49:53.190
You don't deserve anything. We have fundamental
00:49:53.190 --> 00:49:56.110
human rights and, you know, we can talk about
00:49:56.110 --> 00:49:58.329
what those fundamental human rights are. Over
00:49:58.329 --> 00:50:00.030
and above that, you don't deserve everything.
00:50:00.170 --> 00:50:02.349
You don't deserve anything. And I say that not
00:50:02.349 --> 00:50:05.210
as truth. I say that as a possibility, like a
00:50:05.210 --> 00:50:07.070
way to kind of look at your life and to say,
00:50:07.190 --> 00:50:10.119
well, The deserve paradigm is deeply problematic.
00:50:10.340 --> 00:50:13.900
Instead, I want that. Sure. I really want that.
00:50:13.900 --> 00:50:15.800
Be honest with yourself. You should have that.
00:50:15.960 --> 00:50:18.360
I want that for you. You should have it. And
00:50:18.360 --> 00:50:19.800
you're going to do all the work and all that
00:50:19.800 --> 00:50:22.579
stuff. But I think this notion of deserve is
00:50:22.579 --> 00:50:26.039
deeply, deeply problematic. Yeah. Okay. We'll
00:50:26.039 --> 00:50:28.519
try another. Number two, green flag, red flag.
00:50:28.699 --> 00:50:31.300
Keeping a purchase secret from my partner is
00:50:31.300 --> 00:50:38.150
not a problem. Okay, Lisa. I mean, back to my
00:50:38.150 --> 00:50:40.769
other point of like women being able to make
00:50:40.769 --> 00:50:42.969
independent financial decisions within relationships.
00:50:43.090 --> 00:50:45.869
Okay. I do that. I'm not checking in with my
00:50:45.869 --> 00:50:49.570
partner every day. Okay. So your money, do what
00:50:49.570 --> 00:50:52.130
you want with it. Okay. Yeah, definitely. I think
00:50:52.130 --> 00:50:55.710
there's a very fine line between not briefing
00:50:55.710 --> 00:50:57.949
your partner on all the things and as the question
00:50:57.949 --> 00:51:00.900
was phrased, keeping it from them. Right. And
00:51:00.900 --> 00:51:03.280
I would say now I've got a sample size of one.
00:51:03.300 --> 00:51:04.760
I'm only in one marriage. I only have my own.
00:51:04.820 --> 00:51:06.719
And I know what works in my marriage. And that
00:51:06.719 --> 00:51:09.739
just would not work. It would not work. Secrets
00:51:09.739 --> 00:51:12.239
don't, you know, in some relationships, maybe
00:51:12.239 --> 00:51:14.840
it can work and that that's great. I think an
00:51:14.840 --> 00:51:18.519
alternative to get to the same end would be ours,
00:51:18.840 --> 00:51:21.900
yours and mine. Sure. And if it's my money and
00:51:21.900 --> 00:51:24.000
we've set kind of like the dollar amount, whatever
00:51:24.000 --> 00:51:26.260
it is, I'm not telling you what I spend my money
00:51:26.260 --> 00:51:27.599
on. And that's how we are. Dennis doesn't tell
00:51:27.599 --> 00:51:28.760
me what he spends his money on. He just spends
00:51:28.760 --> 00:51:31.559
it. I don't know. But he's not keeping it from
00:51:31.559 --> 00:51:34.099
me. Yeah. And I just don't. I do the same. And
00:51:34.099 --> 00:51:35.920
I think also materiality, right? It's one thing
00:51:35.920 --> 00:51:37.739
if you bought something for $10, you didn't tell
00:51:37.739 --> 00:51:39.360
them it's okay. But it's another if it was for
00:51:39.360 --> 00:51:42.719
$100 ,000. Yes, all those commercials where the
00:51:42.719 --> 00:51:44.340
car is like a surprise gift. You're like, you
00:51:44.340 --> 00:51:48.059
needed to talk about this. Imagine I'm a person
00:51:48.059 --> 00:51:49.659
and this is what I'm saying. Next month will
00:51:49.659 --> 00:51:51.860
be different. But I say that every month. So
00:51:51.860 --> 00:51:53.679
I look at my finances. I know where I'm at. I
00:51:53.679 --> 00:51:54.820
don't change anything. I say, you know what?
00:51:54.860 --> 00:51:57.039
Next month will be different. This is future
00:51:57.039 --> 00:52:03.170
Manisha's problem. Is there a pink flag? I'm
00:52:03.170 --> 00:52:05.469
going to give you a, it depends answer. And it
00:52:05.469 --> 00:52:08.829
depends what you need from me. One of the lessons
00:52:08.829 --> 00:52:11.670
I have learned the hard way many times is that
00:52:11.670 --> 00:52:14.329
what people need from me is not what I think
00:52:14.329 --> 00:52:17.750
I want to deliver to them. So I am an advice
00:52:17.750 --> 00:52:21.309
forward person. I have this kind of self -concept
00:52:21.309 --> 00:52:23.030
that I've got all this experience and people
00:52:23.030 --> 00:52:25.309
should want my advice all the time. What I have
00:52:25.309 --> 00:52:27.989
found is that that's not the case. And so sometimes
00:52:27.989 --> 00:52:31.579
what's needed is for me to just listen. and ask
00:52:31.579 --> 00:52:34.440
them questions and listen. And sometimes people
00:52:34.440 --> 00:52:37.440
need the tough love. And so my job is to determine
00:52:37.440 --> 00:52:40.920
what they need of me in that moment and provide
00:52:40.920 --> 00:52:43.500
them what they need. And sometimes it's really,
00:52:43.599 --> 00:52:44.800
yeah, you know what? You're totally right. It's
00:52:44.800 --> 00:52:46.539
going to be totally okay. Sometimes that's all
00:52:46.539 --> 00:52:48.719
they need. That's the hope that's helping them
00:52:48.719 --> 00:52:50.500
make it to next month. And I could be the one
00:52:50.500 --> 00:52:52.360
that doesn't judge them because everybody else
00:52:52.360 --> 00:52:54.880
has already. Yeah, yeah. And this is our last
00:52:54.880 --> 00:52:58.340
red flag, green flag. I'm embarrassed about my
00:52:58.340 --> 00:53:00.599
finances. But I'm not going to do anything about
00:53:00.599 --> 00:53:07.380
it. Red flag, green flag. I mean, embarrassment
00:53:07.380 --> 00:53:10.739
is okay. It's an emotion. It's a feeling. It's
00:53:10.739 --> 00:53:14.059
a human condition that we all experience. I think
00:53:14.059 --> 00:53:18.400
using that with anything, anytime you use something
00:53:18.400 --> 00:53:21.539
to paralyze yourself, that's not a good thing.
00:53:21.719 --> 00:53:24.000
Whether it's like you're afraid to learn AI for
00:53:24.000 --> 00:53:26.500
your role at work or if you're afraid to look
00:53:26.500 --> 00:53:30.360
at your bank account. Fear should be a tool that
00:53:30.360 --> 00:53:32.300
moves you forward. It should make you curious.
00:53:32.360 --> 00:53:35.139
It should allow you to find the next steps. But
00:53:35.139 --> 00:53:37.800
if it paralyzes you, I think that's when there
00:53:37.800 --> 00:53:40.659
are bigger issues at play. No, that's fair. If
00:53:40.659 --> 00:53:43.420
I heard that statement because I'm prone to giving
00:53:43.420 --> 00:53:47.239
advice, I would ask for permission. to ask some
00:53:47.239 --> 00:53:50.460
supplementary questions. And I would say it warmly
00:53:50.460 --> 00:53:52.179
and with affection and playfully, but I would
00:53:52.179 --> 00:53:55.599
say, tell me more about that. Tell me more about
00:53:55.599 --> 00:54:00.000
that. And what they probably would say is something
00:54:00.000 --> 00:54:02.199
that would eventually get to, I'm terrified.
00:54:02.500 --> 00:54:05.940
And then I would say, okay, so the best thing
00:54:05.940 --> 00:54:08.940
I ever learned about courage is that courage
00:54:08.940 --> 00:54:11.619
is not the absence of fear. Courage is the mastery
00:54:11.619 --> 00:54:14.400
of fear. So how could I help you master fear?
00:54:14.519 --> 00:54:17.099
What could I do? A thousand years ago, when I
00:54:17.099 --> 00:54:20.480
quit my corporate job and wanted to go on television,
00:54:21.000 --> 00:54:23.380
I had quit my job, literally, like I had no job.
00:54:23.480 --> 00:54:26.440
And I was terrified about calling the newsrooms,
00:54:26.500 --> 00:54:28.239
which was what there was to do back in the day.
00:54:28.280 --> 00:54:29.679
I needed to call a newsroom and try and get an
00:54:29.679 --> 00:54:32.639
interview. And I had a friend come to my house
00:54:32.639 --> 00:54:36.840
and sit in my house while I called every single
00:54:36.840 --> 00:54:39.500
newsroom in the country. And I would say, I'm
00:54:39.500 --> 00:54:42.760
about to call so -and -so. She's like, you're
00:54:42.760 --> 00:54:44.360
not going to die. You're going to, what are you
00:54:44.360 --> 00:54:45.539
going to say? I'm going to say this. And I would
00:54:45.539 --> 00:54:47.219
pick up the phone. I would call the thing, hang
00:54:47.219 --> 00:54:49.119
up, come back into the living room. Oh my God,
00:54:49.199 --> 00:54:51.320
I almost died. But you didn't die. So who are
00:54:51.320 --> 00:54:52.599
you going to call next? I'm going to call them.
00:54:52.780 --> 00:54:55.980
Oh my God. And for hours, I just kept, you know,
00:54:55.980 --> 00:54:58.320
making these calls and she debriefed me and made
00:54:58.320 --> 00:55:00.460
the calls and she debriefed me. And it was because
00:55:00.460 --> 00:55:04.179
this idea that we're ever going to walk through
00:55:04.179 --> 00:55:08.320
life without experiencing fear is just. It's
00:55:08.320 --> 00:55:11.059
not the way it's going to go. So how do you become
00:55:11.059 --> 00:55:14.219
a master of that and take the action anyway?
00:55:14.590 --> 00:55:17.449
Well, that is a wonderful thought to end this
00:55:17.449 --> 00:55:20.309
episode on. I think we've learned a lot. I've
00:55:20.309 --> 00:55:22.110
definitely learned a lot. As you've been listening
00:55:22.110 --> 00:55:24.150
along, if you have, that's great. But I think
00:55:24.150 --> 00:55:26.530
it's a reminder that sometimes you need the right
00:55:26.530 --> 00:55:28.449
partners. You need the right support group. Don't
00:55:28.449 --> 00:55:30.769
be afraid to go look for them. And that fear,
00:55:30.929 --> 00:55:33.329
use it to drive you forward. So we started talking
00:55:33.329 --> 00:55:35.289
about financial fitness. A little bit of there
00:55:35.289 --> 00:55:38.469
is about mental agility and getting strong. I
00:55:38.469 --> 00:55:40.210
want to thank Bruce. I want to thank Lisa. This
00:55:40.210 --> 00:55:41.969
has been a great chat. Thank you so much for
00:55:41.969 --> 00:55:47.280
your time. Thank you for having us. Thank you.