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Welcome to Finding Our Why, a new podcast by The Jewish Independent.
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I'm Ittai Flesher joining you from Jerusalem.
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And I'm Courtney Winter Peters, joining you from the Gold Coast.
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We both grew up in the Australian Jewish community, kind of shool hopping on Russia Shana and Yom Kippur to different places.
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But our journeys took us in very different directions.
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Yet we find ourselves here together asking the same questions.
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At a time when so many conversations in the Jewish world are focused on anti-Semitism, security, and survival, we found ourselves looking for deeper meaning and grounding.
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For the rituals, stories, and values and traditions that have sustained Jewish life for generations.
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Not just what we're fighting against, but what we're living for.
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Welcome to Finding Our Way.
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Yes, this is definitely an important topic to finding our why.
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And as you mentioned with Rosha Shana and Yom Kippur just around the corner, I thought I have to begin this podcast episode with a quote from Jonathan Sachs because I've never been to Shule in any Shul in Melbourne on Russia Shana and Yom Kippura that doesn't have a Jonathan Sachs quote.
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So just like in honor of that, I'm going to start with a quote.
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And this is, for those who don't know him, he was the chief rabbi of the Commonwealth.
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He was a modern Orthodox rabbi.
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And I think his many, many books and writings have inspired Jews to find meaning throughout the world.
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And so this is one of the things that he said about Jewish festivals.
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He says, We don't just study Jewish history.
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On the fast and festivals, we reenact it.
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Truth becomes real when it becomes deed.
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And I was thinking about that quote, you know, in preparing for this episode, because so many of the festivals that we do, we reenacting something that we once did or that, or that our ancestors once did.
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So like in Pesach, we literally reenact the Exodus from Egypt, like eating the same foods.
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Some people even walk around the table and hit each other with reeds.
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We singing the same songs.
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We say, you know, behold or vadocham tatsmuki iluhuatza in every generation.
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We're feeling as if we personally left Egypt.
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In Sukkot, we like reenacting what happened when we left Egypt, the booths that we stayed in.
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And we build, like, you know, in Jerusalem where I live, probably every hundred meters, there's a booth on a main road in front of restaurants, and a lot of people have a sukkar in their back gardens as well.
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And they're everywhere.
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And we reimagining what it was like when we left Egypt to live in these sort of temporary huts.
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And in Shawuat, you know, when the Jews received the Torah, there's a tradition that the Jews fell asleep that night.
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And so we do a tikkunlel shawat, where instead of going to sleep, we stay up all night learning Torah.
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And I remember many tikkunlel shawts at at Habo with Kolenu and at Shira and at Corfield Shul, and you know, many other places where people stayed up till two, three, four in the morning learning about the Ten Commandments or, you know, the topical issue of the day.
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And again, it's a reenactment of something that happened thousands of years, and that's what the festivals are for me.
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I'm surprised it took us this long to refer to Rabbi Jonathan Sachs because I always find there's a lot of wisdom there.
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Also, what's really interesting about this conversation and how you started with a quote, I think really highlights a difference between us and how we approach these things.
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I'm interested in exploring it more today when we talk about ritual and how and why we practice.
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Because I think you often start with a text and ask, what is Judaism trying to teach us?
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And I feel like I tend to start with a feeling or an experience, and only afterwards, sometimes or eventually, asking, why did that matter so much?
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So it'll be interesting to explore today.
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And when I hear you talk about the Rabbi Sachs quote, the word that stands out to me is reenacting.
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And obviously, Pesak's the biggest one that comes to mind, but really why that word catches me is because it's not about studying, it's not about discussing, it's reenacting something that speaks to repetition.
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So doing something over and over again, generation after generation.
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And that's what ritual has been to me.
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Do the things we did last year and have always done.
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And so with Yom Kippur approaching, and when we were preparing for today and having a bit of a think about ritual, I was thinking back to where I was last year for Yom Kippur.
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So usually for Yom Kippur, it's the same for me every year.
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I'm home in Melbourne, you've got the early pre-rushed fast meal, and then you head to Schul, spend hours there for Corny Dre, then back the next day.
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I spend the day trying to distract myself from how hungry I am, lots of introspection, but also lots of time watching the clock and trying to distract my kids as well.
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It's a day that never ends, yeah.
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It's like the longest 24-5 hours ever.
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But last year we were about a week and a half into our four-month road trip around Australia.
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It's like you could take the girl out of Caulfield and what does ritual actually look like?
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So we just to set the scene for you, we were camping.
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So we had our camper trailer and we were at a place called Lake Argyle in the Kimberley.
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So it's northeastern WA, like just over the border from Northern Territory, and there's nothing around.
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The closest town is an hour and a half away.
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It's Kananara.
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I don't even remember if there's traffic lights there.
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It was just a campground.
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I mean, it was a stunning campground, and maybe when we share this episode, I can share some photos of exactly where we were.
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But it was 40 degrees.
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As I said, we're in a tent, there was no synagogue, no Jewish community around us, and I'm not gonna lie, like the thought of fasting in the heat was really not fun.
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And I know there are people that live in much warmer climates than me, but that was really hard for me.
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And there was also nothing to distract my kids, you know, like I couldn't get that time out and just be like, I'm going to shul or I'm reading, like we were together and my kids are young.
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So when you talk about reenacting, it makes me think, you know, what we do on Yom Kippur is so special and it gives us such a process around the day and how to find the meaning in it.
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But then I also think like, where does the meaning come from?
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Is it the being in shul?
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Is it being in community?
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Is it the fasting, or is it actually saying the prayers?
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I think for me, so much about ritual has been about connection to community and family.
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So when I was removed from all of that, it almost felt like practicing Yom Kippur was gonna be impossible.
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And then I've got to say, something really beautiful happened that made me really proud.
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Like I had kind of been talking to my family in the lead up, saying it's gonna be Yom Kippur, we're not gonna be like driving around going on tours, you know, I need some downtime, we need a focus.
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And they all just wanted to swim because it was really hot.
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But then without any of any any prompting, one of my kids kind of sat us in a circle and led us almost through like a gratitude circle for lack of a better word.
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And she made us go round and say, like, what's something we're really proud of, what's something we're really grateful for, what's something we're excited for, and what's something we're like nervous about.
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And it was just the most beautiful moment.
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Like my heart just really felt it.
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And I know it's not a traditional Yom Kippur ritual, but somehow in the middle of the Kimberley, we found a way as a family to mark the day.
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And I realize that's actually how I've experienced so much of Judaism.
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I haven't always understood every ritual.
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I can talk about why it matters and why it's important, but I couldn't necessarily recite like a text off the top of my head.
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I did them because that's what was done.
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You know, it was a way of maintaining memory and connection.
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It was about what my parents did, what my grandparents did.
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It was those repeated, reenacted acts that created meaning and connection for me and maintained history.
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And so maybe that's why I'm so drawn to ritual, not because I think every ritual needs to be followed perfectly, but because I wonder, you know, maybe it's the act of showing up year after year that shapes who we become.
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Yeah.
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It's interesting, you know, in that story you shared, because you didn't do the traditional Yom Kippur things, you know, there's no minyan, there's no talit, there's no shofar, there's no choir, there's no singing.
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Yet your kids still knew enough to feel like this day has to be different from every other day on our camping trip.
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So how can we make it different?
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And then you come up with a gratitude circle.
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And I totally get like, you know, for so many people, Yom Kippur is the fasting.
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Like that's the be-all and end all of it.
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And fasting's hard.
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And fasting for some people takes them to a spiritual experience, and for some people takes them to a really bad headache and fainting.
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And that's me.
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I do the fasting because that's what we do, but I find it really hard, and every year I think I'm really just I'm counting down the clock, like I'm finding it really hard to concentrate by the end.
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I'm finding it really hard to like stand up during Neila.
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And I'm, you know, I would like to think that I'm fit and capable.
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Yeah.
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I definitely feel the spiritual and the holy and the connections, particularly when I'm around in a room full of people who are so connected.
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But I find the not gonna lie, I find the fasting really hard.
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Look, I'm also not good at fasting at all.
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And I remember a couple of years when I was a bit younger, when it was a bit hotter on the hotter days in Melbourne, it was like over 30 degrees, I think.
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And I was, I was about two hours from the end of the fast.
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And I was like, I think I might die if I do another two hours of fasting.
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Like, and I knew I wasn't gonna die, but I was like, I was feeling like I couldn't stand anymore.
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I was sweating, I was just like, and then I was like, just eat, just or have a cup of water or you know, do something.
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And then it was like, you know, it was like a marathon when you're like not have done a marathon before.
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But I imagine if you get to 35Ks in the marathon and you feel horrible, you're like, yeah, I'm not gonna stop now, you know.
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And so I was like, there was a bit of me that wanted, I just wanted to get to the end as a kind of like an achievement.
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And then I was thinking, again, because I speak Hebrew and I understand the prayers, a lot of the prayers are about death and what happens after you die and how God will judge you, and requesting, you know, that God be merciful when God judges you.
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And I started thinking of Yom Kippur as kind of like a moment before a funeral.
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Like that was what was going through my mind in the synagogue and imagining like if this is my last day, not that I was gonna die that Yom Kippur, but if this was my last day on earth, have I done all the things in my life that I wanted to do?
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Have I said everything I want to say to the people I care about?
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Have I helped the people I want to help in my life?
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Have I, you know, written my philosophy of life and to share it with my children and the people around me?
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And so I think ever since that sort of Yom Kippur where I almost died but didn't die, um I keep thinking of that day as imagine this is your last day on earth.
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And then the fasting for me is something that sort of helps me get a little bit closer to what it feels like to not be alive, and then through that to reconnect to why I want to be alive in the first place.
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It's really interesting hearing you talk similarly about the fasting side of it, but firstly that it did get you to that point of spiritual connection and I think the meaning of Yom Kippur.
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But listening to you talk about that, I kind of wonder you know, when we talk about rituals and meaning, what comes first?
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Do rituals become meaningful because we understand them, or do we understand them because we keep practicing the ritual?
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And which is more important?
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Yeah, look, I think of all the rituals that probably have the strongest association with, I'd say Pesach is probably first and foremost.
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When I was a Jewish studies teacher at Scopus and at King David, and in addition to running my own Pesach Setter, before Paysach used to run like 15 model stereum for younger kids where you would sort of basically do the setter in an hour, I'd sound with a guitar, I'd tell a few stories and manishtana, and we'd get mata and haross it all over our clothes.
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And then often, you know, I'd get to my own Pesach Setter and I was like, I've done this 15 times already.
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I'm not in the mood.
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But I also, because like, you know, I'm the Jewish educator in the family, almost always was running my own family setter from probably no pressure.
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Yeah, from the age of 25.
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And then I remember after we moved to Israel in in 2018, it was our first setter, you know, without our parents and grandparents.
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And we have these very close friends of ours who said, Why don't we go to Sinai for the setter to Egypt?
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And I was like, you know what?
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Why not?
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Like, I can do this.
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That's real reenactment.
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That's that's real reenactment.
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So we, you know, we packed up all the things, got a bus to Eilat, crossed the border into Egypt.
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Took like seven hours to get into Egypt because like thousands of Israelis go down to Sinai for Pesach.
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And my kids were like, I think about seven and ten at the time, so we had to pack heaps of things.
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We were in a sort of like a big husha, it's like a tent outdoors, so you have to bring a lot of gear with you.
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And I knew it was gonna be pesos, so I bought wine and kirush cups and matzah and lots of specific food that my kids like to eat.
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And then I realized that I'd also planned to bring haggadot, and then I hadn't bought haggadot.
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Like I'd bought everything except haggadot.
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And you know, every holiday when you pack, there's always one thing you forget.
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And so for this Pesach holiday, the one thing I forgot was haggadot, and I was making a Pesath setter 40 memory in Hebrew, and I was like, okay, look, you got this Sita.
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Like, I've done Pesach, you know, many times.
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I think I can remember most of the setter, at least I can remember the songs, and we also had no Wi-Fi as well, so I couldn't look up the Haggadah on a phone either.
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I just had to really like go for memory, and I felt like when we talk about reenactment, not only did I have to reenact sort of remembering as much of the haggadah as I could to facilitate this setter for 40 Israelis, you know, mostly dressed in like shorts and singlets, sitting on the beach as the sun was setting.
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But then I looked behind me and I saw the Gulf of Akaba, which, according to some historians, is actually the sea that the Jews crossed to get into to Jordan, and then from Jordan into the Promised Land.
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And then I was thinking, like, like I'm literally sitting, maybe in the place where it happened, and I'm with a group of Israelis in Hebrew with my guitar, singing, you know, Manishta Nain, Khadmiodeah, and Lishana Babi Rushalaim, and I've never felt further away from Jerusalem and the Promised Land than when I was in Egypt, even though Egypt is much, much closer geographically than Melbourne is.
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I just felt like I'm in the exile now.
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And at the end of Pesach, I'm gonna be going back up into my home, back to Jerusalem.
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And there was something about that Pesach that I think stays with me more than any other Pesach is a sense of reenacting.
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And you know, to go back to your question, the ritual was so much more powerful because I wasn't just sort of repeating something new, I was really like together with you know 40,000 Israelis that had come to Egypt, that Pesach, really reenacting something that gave it so much more meaning.
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And you were in Sinai.
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Yes, which made it much easier.
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Listening to you tell that story, it sounds like it's the meaning before the ritual.
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Had you had bought those haggadot, the ritual would have been easy, but you had to interpret it in your way.
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Yeah.
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This pesach, I was also away from home.
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First time I hosted, we had friends over or with young kids, you know, but everyone with their own rituals that they have from their home.
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Like Pesach is also when you talk about ritual, it's the first one that comes to mind for me, which is interesting because you'd think Shabbat would be front of mind, but Pesach to me is peak Jewish ritual and enactment, which you've said.
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And, you know, there was a discussion whether we'd go home and celebrate with my family or do it in our own way, and it was really interesting to watch it come together.
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I think there's something really beautiful about, I mean, you're a Jewish educator, like the texts come natural to you, and you sing, and you've got guitar, so you can create this beautiful atmosphere, and I really felt more pressure and nerves having people into my house to create a ritual with than I did doing Yom Kippur on my own.
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Firstly, it had to have meaning for me and my kids.
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Like, you know, back home we do pesaks front to back, every word, every song with my family.
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But that's part of what the magic and the beauty and what makes, you know, it's long, it's chaotic, it's loud, we love the songs, you know, we've got songs that we add like our own little spicy blague.
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Little like uh costumes and little plague uh we redo the costumes, and I'll tell you a fun fact about me.
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I am in Hagaja, I get to play the kid every time.
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I have been doing it for over 20 years.
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I make an epic goat noise.
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I will not do it here, but maybe it's add that to your resume on LinkedIn.
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The world needs to do that.
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It's on my LinkedIn sure.
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But there was something scary bringing families in.
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I know we share the same beliefs, but what if we have different rituals that we do in the home?
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Will I be able to bring that all together?
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You know, new families, new people I didn't know.
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So, look, speaking of bringing in new people, I think you mentioned Shabbat.
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So in Jerusalem, my wife Khan works at the Prodes Institute of Jewish Studies.
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And by the way, to anyone listening to this that wants to study Torah into Jerusalem, come to Prodesh.
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Um, and we often have guests for Shabbat who are Prodes students who are mainly, you know, college students from the US or Australia or the UK or South Africa, and they've come to Jerusalem not just to study Torah but to find meaning.
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And Karma always tells me before Shabbat, you know, it's I these are six people, none of them know each other, they're new to the country.
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Be entertaining, like make sure that they feel welcome, play a game, ask a question, you know, do something.
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So I feel like Shabbat is always a time where if we have guests where I'm on for the guests, and if it's just our kids, then it's a much shorter meal and we just talk about our week.
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And I sometimes I just talk about the news that happened that week because there's always like big news that's very overwhelming in this country.
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But I think something I enjoy about Shabbat specifically is a ritual that I don't know if many people do, unless they're very religious, but is it's called Havdala, which is a ceremony that marks the end of Shabbat.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:12.480
Again, it involves a guitar and singing, and there's three blessings about candles and wine and psamim, which are these sweet scents.
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:28.240
And I remember like when I was a youth movement leader in Hinaini or on various Jewish camps that I was a teacher at Scopus, and we always used to do Havala around the lake, and we'd all sit in a circle and na na na nay and all of that.
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:29.680
And it was really beautiful.
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.680
A lot of people have a certain tune that they use for haftala or for paysach.
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:51.599
Even if it's a tune they learnt when they were 10 years old, they just can't get out of that tune.
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:53.359
Like the tune is that.
00:20:53.440 --> 00:21:00.319
I I know shuls where there's been a breakaway because someone changed the tune for Le Khadodi, because it was like, this is the tune that we do.
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:11.920
So I think in an era where there is, you know, everything's changing and everything's new, and now we're in the era of AI, like maybe the robots are going to take over the world in a few years.
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:21.599
But so much of Jewish ritual is connecting us to our childhood, to our ancestors, to our family, to experiences we may have had on summer camps.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.599
And I think that's why we hold on to it, and that's why it gives us so much meaning.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:22:00.960
I know that I shared something similar when we started this conversation about a reenact because it's connection to my History.
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:12.319
And then I was thinking back to my own practice of rituals, and I guess the way you start with like sharing texts and knowledge, and I do the things because that's what we do.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:23.759
You know, for example, Shabbat growing up was alternating between my grandparents' houses, having big dinners, saying kiddush, but then everyone went off and did their own thing.
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:25.519
It wasn't a particularly religious Shabbat.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:33.119
I mean, growing up, I went to show every Saturday, probably more because I enjoyed the kids' club than actually had any interest in praying.
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:37.680
Absolutely.
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:38.559
Yeah.
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:41.519
I wasn't going without rewards.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:53.119
And I just I wonder if if I keep going like this, like at what point do I need to re-engage with text and find that meaning again?
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:57.920
And I guess that's part of you know why we're doing this podcast, that searching for why.
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:11.839
You know, again, I've removed myself from community, Shabbat looks different, sometimes it's just me and my family, it's quieter, but then, you know, Saturday is sports, it's busy, it's hectic.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:23.519
Where do we find that balance between, I guess it's coming back to that meaning conversation again, but should there be guilt around not doing enough or rituals not looking a particular way?
00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:28.640
So, look, guilt is definitely a part of Jewish identity.
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:32.720
It's part of what motivates people to do certain actions.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:34.559
And I think it's okay.
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:49.599
Like if you feel like a festival should be involved fasting or should involve synagogue, and then for some reason that festival ends up on the beach or in a waterhole or at a sports game, and you feel guilty about that, then that guilt is coming up in you for a reason.
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:52.559
And you should explore, like, why is it that I feel guilty?
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.640
Is this really what I want to be doing this this Saturday or this Rosh Hashanah?
00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:58.400
And if it is, then that's fine.
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:05.920
And if it isn't, then you know, you need to have that conversation about what is it that I want to be using with my time on earth.
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:12.240
You know, we we say in Judaism that when someone has a birthday, we say, Admeavesrim, that you should live till 120 years.
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:16.319
But you think about it, it's like an insanely long time, like 120 years.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.039
Like, what am I gonna do in all of that time?
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:44.559
But then each week, when we get to Shabbat, so many of us say, I was so busy this week, and there's so many things, and I didn't get to all my emails, and there was all these people I wanted to call, and I wanted to help someone out who was moving the house, and then someone asked me to read a draft of their book that I couldn't, and then someone else asked me for for advice to, you know, in a personal issue that were going on, and I tried to help them, but I really didn't have time to talk.
00:24:44.720 --> 00:25:13.200
And so we've got all this time of 120 years, but at the same time, like we're so time poor, and a lot of these rituals are really sort of like punctuating time, and they're they're popping little holes in this very crowded life we have, and they're saying, Hey, stop that now, go into a sukkar, or stop that it's it's Shabbat, or hey, it's Roshana, maybe you should travel to to be with your family that you don't live in the same country as.
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.880
And I think that's really important to break the routine.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:23.680
That actually really resonated with me because I was thinking back to some conversations I've had in my own house about why we do things.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:29.759
And I said, like I've said to my husband, sometimes we just do it because it makes us stop and think, oh, but we're Jewish and that's why.
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:39.759
And that might just be a baseline, and it's not always a deep discussion on the depth of meaning, but sometimes that is it for me.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:42.480
It makes me stop, you know, keeping a kosher house.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:43.839
Like it's it's not that easy.
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.960
It's not great to have to go and find kosher meat.
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:48.160
It's really difficult.
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:53.759
But there's something about that challenge, and I guess it's back to the oi versus joy and leading to the oi side.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:57.519
That challenge makes me stop and think, I'm Jewish and I'm doing this for a reason.
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:02.720
I'm doing this because generations of people before me have done it, even though it's hard.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.480
And it actually makes me think, you know, we're talking about the beauty of rituals.
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:12.480
Controversial question, but what are some rituals you do that you actually just don't enjoy?
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:26.720
So probably the first one that comes to mind is Britney La, you know, the obligation to circumcise a male child at the age of eight days without an aesthetic and without consent of the child.
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:28.640
And I do have a son.
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:31.759
My wife and I struggled a lot with that commandment.
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:44.880
You know, I looked into it and I studied it and I looked at various rationales for it, and I I've even sort of people have asked me for advice on it before, and I I listened to some advice that I gave to other people who are considering whether to do it or not.
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:53.359
And then I realized I don't believe in this ritual, like I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's logical, I don't understand why we still do it.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:55.759
I think it's it's quite cruel to be honest.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.960
And then I gave my son a Brit Miller as well.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:22.720
It's probably the only thing I've done in my life where I don't think I have any good reason for why I did it, and I just did it anyway, because usually most things that I do in my life, you know, I think very carefully about them, and I'm very measured and I evaluate and I research and I analyze, and now I probably ask AI what it thinks as well.
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:29.759
But this was just one of those things that was totally illogical for both Carm and I, and we did it anyway.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:36.319
Again, coming back to this, you said it yourself, you research, you read the text, which is what I said at the start of today.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:45.440
You read the text and you do all the things because I also have a son, he's my youngest of three, and I have been to many other people's Brit Miller.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:28:06.720
I've been there, you know, for family and my nephews and cousins and friends' kids, and it's all part of the celebration, and often there is a celebration after, and I didn't think much about it until the morning of my son's, and my son was born in the first week of lockdown in Melbourne.
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:19.519
I think it was the worldwide lockdown actually at the time for COVID, and you know, everything was so focused on COVID and keeping healthy, and it was only me and my husband that were allowed to go.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:36.400
In fact, I convinced the doctor slash mohell that did it that I'd have to bring my daughters because no one else could look after them because we were in lockdown, and they sat in the next room watching Paw Patrol, and my my husband held my son Bowie, which was unusual because you know you normally invite someone to hold.
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:41.519
But I just remember this feeling of waking up in the morning going, are we really going to do this?
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.920
Is this really what our religion is telling us to do?
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:47.359
I've been to so many of these.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:49.599
Is this what everyone feels the morning of?
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:51.519
And they just do it anyway.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:55.279
And then I got dressed and I packed our bag and that's what we did.
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:03.920
Even though the feeling and everything inside me, and I guess what got me through is the connection to history and generations before me.
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:07.839
But yeah, I hear what you're saying, and thank you for sharing.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:24.559
Like it's it's yeah, and I think I think it's I think it's important to be, I don't know what the listener feedback is going to be like on this episode, but I think it's important to be to be honest about rituals that work, rituals that don't work, rituals that bring people together, rituals that separate people.
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:39.519
I know for a lot of Jews there's a lot of pain associated with certain rituals, maybe because they've been estranged from their family or they have different views about Israel and Gaza, that they sort of can't be together now anymore on Pesach or on Rosh Hashanah.
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:46.960
And these days are not necessarily days of joy or days of of comfort or days that they look forward to.
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:49.839
And that's also part of the Jewish experience.
00:29:49.920 --> 00:30:08.799
And, you know, coming back to the to the theme of this topic, which of this podcast, which is finding out why, like the why sometimes comes from things going right, but it often comes from things going wrong, and then you're reflecting on those things going wrong and thinking, what can I do differently next time?
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:11.920
It's a challenging but also a really beautiful reflection.
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:24.240
And you're right, like I'm so grateful to all the family memories, but I also know once you, you know, even if you lose someone in the family or you start doing it differently, like a festival or ritual becomes harder.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:37.359
So it's a really important reminder, but I think it brings me back to, I guess, reflecting on that Oi versus Joy discussion we had a few weeks ago, that Judaism wouldn't be the same without some of those challenges.
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.799
You know, we do the things in spite of the difficulties.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.039
You know, we still come together, we still fight for community and ritual and connection.
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.880
And I think what you said, it's a really important part in finding out why.
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:27.920
I guess the question is, Courtney, what do you want those days to look like for you and your family next week?
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:33.440
I really appreciate that we're having this conversation right now about ritual and belief and what that looks like.
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:44.799
Because whilst we're not in the middle of the Kimberley this year, we're still away from my regular shul hopping places and you know, things that make Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur easy for me.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:32:05.279
So this year I'm really hoping to create a space of new rituals with people we've met here, really trying to find the ways to make it meaningful for my family and for myself and making sure we're engaged, even if it's in our own way and not within a shawl, maybe our own little service at our house.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:21.759
And then in terms of my own reflection, what I love about Yom Kippur is really taking a moment to reflect on the year, and it's been a huge year of growth and change and challenge, and really want a moment to think about what that means for myself, for my family, for those around me, on what the next year could look like.
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.559
That's a good thing to think about on Rosh Hashanah.
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:44.960
Look, in Jerusalem, look, my city, my country, is in the midst of a very nasty election campaign, and you know, we're still obviously not at peace with our neighbours, and I think there's a lot of violence here, and even in my own life and in my own work, I'm happy with what I'm doing with Seeds of Peace and bringing kids together.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:33:01.759
But I often, when I get to Rosh Hena Yom Kippur, I think a lot about sin and confession and who are the people that I need to confess to personally for things that I may have done that have hurt them, either intentionally or unintentionally.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:05.839
And then also as a nation, like what do we need to do chuva for?
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:14.000
What do we need to repent on as a collective, as a Jewish people, to make sure that the coming year doesn't have those behaviours.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:19.680
And I think everyone is going to have a very different list, both for for the personal and for the collective.
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:29.359
I often write both my lists on social media every year because I feel like that's something I want to talk about, and that's what I'm probably going to do in the next couple of days.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:38.319
But I do feel that, you know, there's this notion on Roshan Hohen Kimpura that you're standing before a court and the court is going to judge you for your actions.
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:50.240
And I think that accountability is really important, and then I hope that personally that I'm worthy when I stand before that heavenly court and that my people are as well.
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:53.759
And that brings us to the end of episode six.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:59.119
I want to thank my co-host Itai for being here and sharing such beautiful reflections.
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:08.880
And what I enjoy about our conversations is that we can each have different answers and different approaches, and there's no right or wrong way to practice.
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:13.760
The thing about rituals, it's a guide for us, and we can each make of it what works for us.
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:20.000
And thanks to Courtney for asking the questions that you do and bring the answers that you do.
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:25.760
We live very different lives in different places, but I always learn so much from our conversation.
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.960
So it's wonderful to be with you on this journey.
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:35.280
We'd also like to thank Johnny Jenks, who creates the beautiful music that you hear in between the segments.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:47.840
And we've added some special music from festivals as well that you'll hear in this episode too, and also our editor Nick King that brings it all together to the Jewish Independent for supporting this podcast.
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:53.920
As always, we welcome feedback at finding our why at the Jewish Independent.com.au.
00:34:54.559 --> 00:35:03.920
And if you enjoyed listening to this episode, then we've got other TJI podcasts that specifically are about festivals and rituals.
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:17.679
Specifically, we'd love to give a shout out to Asham2 Admit, hosted by Tammy Sassman and Shoshana Gottlieb Becker, which is sort of a light-hearted conversation that delves into the Jewish knowledge you didn't learn at Sunday school.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.280
It's a great extension to this podcast conversation, so check that out too.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:27.519
And otherwise, wishing everyone a Hag Samach, Ashana Tova, and bye-bye.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:28.480
Bye.
00:00:05.280 --> 00:00:09.679
Welcome to Finding Our Why, a new podcast by The Jewish Independent.
00:00:09.759 --> 00:00:12.400
I'm Ittai Flesher joining you from Jerusalem.
00:00:12.640 --> 00:00:15.759
And I'm Courtney Winter Peters, joining you from the Gold Coast.
00:00:16.079 --> 00:00:23.039
We both grew up in the Australian Jewish community, kind of shool hopping on Russia Shana and Yom Kippur to different places.
00:00:23.280 --> 00:00:26.079
But our journeys took us in very different directions.
00:00:26.399 --> 00:00:30.000
Yet we find ourselves here together asking the same questions.
00:00:30.239 --> 00:00:40.240
At a time when so many conversations in the Jewish world are focused on anti-Semitism, security, and survival, we found ourselves looking for deeper meaning and grounding.
00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:45.600
For the rituals, stories, and values and traditions that have sustained Jewish life for generations.
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Not just what we're fighting against, but what we're living for.
00:00:49.280 --> 00:00:51.520
Welcome to Finding Our Way.
00:01:27.599 --> 00:01:32.000
Yes, this is definitely an important topic to finding our why.
00:01:32.159 --> 00:01:47.599
And as you mentioned with Rosha Shana and Yom Kippur just around the corner, I thought I have to begin this podcast episode with a quote from Jonathan Sachs because I've never been to Shule in any Shul in Melbourne on Russia Shana and Yom Kippura that doesn't have a Jonathan Sachs quote.
00:01:47.760 --> 00:01:51.200
So just like in honor of that, I'm going to start with a quote.
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And this is, for those who don't know him, he was the chief rabbi of the Commonwealth.
00:01:56.000 --> 00:01:58.400
He was a modern Orthodox rabbi.
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And I think his many, many books and writings have inspired Jews to find meaning throughout the world.
00:02:04.480 --> 00:02:07.840
And so this is one of the things that he said about Jewish festivals.
00:02:08.000 --> 00:02:10.960
He says, We don't just study Jewish history.
00:02:11.360 --> 00:02:14.080
On the fast and festivals, we reenact it.
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Truth becomes real when it becomes deed.
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:30.960
And I was thinking about that quote, you know, in preparing for this episode, because so many of the festivals that we do, we reenacting something that we once did or that, or that our ancestors once did.
00:02:31.199 --> 00:02:38.240
So like in Pesach, we literally reenact the Exodus from Egypt, like eating the same foods.
00:02:38.479 --> 00:02:42.159
Some people even walk around the table and hit each other with reeds.
00:02:42.639 --> 00:02:44.319
We singing the same songs.
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We say, you know, behold or vadocham tatsmuki iluhuatza in every generation.
00:02:50.560 --> 00:02:53.360
We're feeling as if we personally left Egypt.
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In Sukkot, we like reenacting what happened when we left Egypt, the booths that we stayed in.
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And we build, like, you know, in Jerusalem where I live, probably every hundred meters, there's a booth on a main road in front of restaurants, and a lot of people have a sukkar in their back gardens as well.
00:03:10.159 --> 00:03:11.199
And they're everywhere.
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And we reimagining what it was like when we left Egypt to live in these sort of temporary huts.
00:03:16.800 --> 00:03:22.879
And in Shawuat, you know, when the Jews received the Torah, there's a tradition that the Jews fell asleep that night.
00:03:22.960 --> 00:03:28.159
And so we do a tikkunlel shawat, where instead of going to sleep, we stay up all night learning Torah.
00:03:28.240 --> 00:03:43.680
And I remember many tikkunlel shawts at at Habo with Kolenu and at Shira and at Corfield Shul, and you know, many other places where people stayed up till two, three, four in the morning learning about the Ten Commandments or, you know, the topical issue of the day.
00:03:43.919 --> 00:03:50.240
And again, it's a reenactment of something that happened thousands of years, and that's what the festivals are for me.
00:03:50.560 --> 00:03:57.439
I'm surprised it took us this long to refer to Rabbi Jonathan Sachs because I always find there's a lot of wisdom there.
00:03:57.680 --> 00:04:08.159
Also, what's really interesting about this conversation and how you started with a quote, I think really highlights a difference between us and how we approach these things.
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I'm interested in exploring it more today when we talk about ritual and how and why we practice.
00:04:13.439 --> 00:04:18.959
Because I think you often start with a text and ask, what is Judaism trying to teach us?
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And I feel like I tend to start with a feeling or an experience, and only afterwards, sometimes or eventually, asking, why did that matter so much?
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So it'll be interesting to explore today.
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And when I hear you talk about the Rabbi Sachs quote, the word that stands out to me is reenacting.
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And obviously, Pesak's the biggest one that comes to mind, but really why that word catches me is because it's not about studying, it's not about discussing, it's reenacting something that speaks to repetition.
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So doing something over and over again, generation after generation.
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And that's what ritual has been to me.
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Do the things we did last year and have always done.
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And so with Yom Kippur approaching, and when we were preparing for today and having a bit of a think about ritual, I was thinking back to where I was last year for Yom Kippur.
00:05:11.839 --> 00:05:14.720
So usually for Yom Kippur, it's the same for me every year.
00:05:14.879 --> 00:05:24.639
I'm home in Melbourne, you've got the early pre-rushed fast meal, and then you head to Schul, spend hours there for Corny Dre, then back the next day.
00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:35.040
I spend the day trying to distract myself from how hungry I am, lots of introspection, but also lots of time watching the clock and trying to distract my kids as well.
00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.120
It's a day that never ends, yeah.
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It's like the longest 24-5 hours ever.
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But last year we were about a week and a half into our four-month road trip around Australia.
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It's like you could take the girl out of Caulfield and what does ritual actually look like?
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So we just to set the scene for you, we were camping.
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So we had our camper trailer and we were at a place called Lake Argyle in the Kimberley.
00:06:02.240 --> 00:06:08.800
So it's northeastern WA, like just over the border from Northern Territory, and there's nothing around.
00:06:08.879 --> 00:06:10.639
The closest town is an hour and a half away.
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It's Kananara.
00:06:12.079 --> 00:06:14.959
I don't even remember if there's traffic lights there.
00:06:15.199 --> 00:06:16.399
It was just a campground.
00:06:16.480 --> 00:06:22.399
I mean, it was a stunning campground, and maybe when we share this episode, I can share some photos of exactly where we were.
00:06:22.639 --> 00:06:24.319
But it was 40 degrees.
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As I said, we're in a tent, there was no synagogue, no Jewish community around us, and I'm not gonna lie, like the thought of fasting in the heat was really not fun.
00:06:34.079 --> 00:06:38.560
And I know there are people that live in much warmer climates than me, but that was really hard for me.
00:06:38.639 --> 00:06:48.720
And there was also nothing to distract my kids, you know, like I couldn't get that time out and just be like, I'm going to shul or I'm reading, like we were together and my kids are young.
00:06:49.439 --> 00:07:00.879
So when you talk about reenacting, it makes me think, you know, what we do on Yom Kippur is so special and it gives us such a process around the day and how to find the meaning in it.
00:07:01.040 --> 00:07:03.120
But then I also think like, where does the meaning come from?
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:04.399
Is it the being in shul?
00:07:04.639 --> 00:07:06.079
Is it being in community?
00:07:06.240 --> 00:07:09.600
Is it the fasting, or is it actually saying the prayers?
00:07:09.839 --> 00:07:15.759
I think for me, so much about ritual has been about connection to community and family.
00:07:15.920 --> 00:07:22.160
So when I was removed from all of that, it almost felt like practicing Yom Kippur was gonna be impossible.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:26.079
And then I've got to say, something really beautiful happened that made me really proud.
00:07:26.240 --> 00:07:36.480
Like I had kind of been talking to my family in the lead up, saying it's gonna be Yom Kippur, we're not gonna be like driving around going on tours, you know, I need some downtime, we need a focus.
00:07:36.720 --> 00:07:39.360
And they all just wanted to swim because it was really hot.
00:07:39.519 --> 00:07:50.560
But then without any of any any prompting, one of my kids kind of sat us in a circle and led us almost through like a gratitude circle for lack of a better word.
00:07:50.800 --> 00:07:59.600
And she made us go round and say, like, what's something we're really proud of, what's something we're really grateful for, what's something we're excited for, and what's something we're like nervous about.
00:08:00.000 --> 00:08:03.040
And it was just the most beautiful moment.
00:08:03.279 --> 00:08:06.639
Like my heart just really felt it.
00:08:06.720 --> 00:08:15.279
And I know it's not a traditional Yom Kippur ritual, but somehow in the middle of the Kimberley, we found a way as a family to mark the day.
00:08:15.519 --> 00:08:19.759
And I realize that's actually how I've experienced so much of Judaism.
00:08:19.839 --> 00:08:23.519
I haven't always understood every ritual.
00:08:23.759 --> 00:08:30.959
I can talk about why it matters and why it's important, but I couldn't necessarily recite like a text off the top of my head.
00:08:31.199 --> 00:08:33.039
I did them because that's what was done.
00:08:33.120 --> 00:08:36.799
You know, it was a way of maintaining memory and connection.
00:08:36.879 --> 00:08:39.600
It was about what my parents did, what my grandparents did.
00:08:39.759 --> 00:08:46.879
It was those repeated, reenacted acts that created meaning and connection for me and maintained history.
00:08:47.120 --> 00:09:01.360
And so maybe that's why I'm so drawn to ritual, not because I think every ritual needs to be followed perfectly, but because I wonder, you know, maybe it's the act of showing up year after year that shapes who we become.
00:09:01.679 --> 00:09:01.919
Yeah.
00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:13.360
It's interesting, you know, in that story you shared, because you didn't do the traditional Yom Kippur things, you know, there's no minyan, there's no talit, there's no shofar, there's no choir, there's no singing.
00:09:13.840 --> 00:09:20.320
Yet your kids still knew enough to feel like this day has to be different from every other day on our camping trip.
00:09:20.720 --> 00:09:22.080
So how can we make it different?
00:09:22.240 --> 00:09:24.320
And then you come up with a gratitude circle.
00:09:24.720 --> 00:09:28.559
And I totally get like, you know, for so many people, Yom Kippur is the fasting.
00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:30.720
Like that's the be-all and end all of it.
00:09:31.120 --> 00:09:32.320
And fasting's hard.
00:09:32.399 --> 00:09:40.559
And fasting for some people takes them to a spiritual experience, and for some people takes them to a really bad headache and fainting.
00:09:40.639 --> 00:09:42.080
And that's me.
00:09:42.320 --> 00:09:53.759
I do the fasting because that's what we do, but I find it really hard, and every year I think I'm really just I'm counting down the clock, like I'm finding it really hard to concentrate by the end.
00:09:53.919 --> 00:09:57.679
I'm finding it really hard to like stand up during Neila.
00:09:58.080 --> 00:10:01.600
And I'm, you know, I would like to think that I'm fit and capable.
00:10:01.759 --> 00:10:02.080
Yeah.
00:10:02.399 --> 00:10:10.960
I definitely feel the spiritual and the holy and the connections, particularly when I'm around in a room full of people who are so connected.
00:10:11.279 --> 00:10:15.279
But I find the not gonna lie, I find the fasting really hard.
00:10:15.679 --> 00:10:18.960
Look, I'm also not good at fasting at all.
00:10:19.360 --> 00:10:26.480
And I remember a couple of years when I was a bit younger, when it was a bit hotter on the hotter days in Melbourne, it was like over 30 degrees, I think.
00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:29.759
And I was, I was about two hours from the end of the fast.
00:10:29.840 --> 00:10:34.240
And I was like, I think I might die if I do another two hours of fasting.
00:10:34.399 --> 00:10:40.159
Like, and I knew I wasn't gonna die, but I was like, I was feeling like I couldn't stand anymore.
00:10:40.399 --> 00:10:46.799
I was sweating, I was just like, and then I was like, just eat, just or have a cup of water or you know, do something.
00:10:46.960 --> 00:10:50.399
And then it was like, you know, it was like a marathon when you're like not have done a marathon before.
00:10:50.480 --> 00:10:56.960
But I imagine if you get to 35Ks in the marathon and you feel horrible, you're like, yeah, I'm not gonna stop now, you know.
00:10:57.120 --> 00:11:03.360
And so I was like, there was a bit of me that wanted, I just wanted to get to the end as a kind of like an achievement.
00:11:03.679 --> 00:11:20.720
And then I was thinking, again, because I speak Hebrew and I understand the prayers, a lot of the prayers are about death and what happens after you die and how God will judge you, and requesting, you know, that God be merciful when God judges you.
00:11:20.960 --> 00:11:25.759
And I started thinking of Yom Kippur as kind of like a moment before a funeral.
00:11:25.840 --> 00:11:39.360
Like that was what was going through my mind in the synagogue and imagining like if this is my last day, not that I was gonna die that Yom Kippur, but if this was my last day on earth, have I done all the things in my life that I wanted to do?
00:11:39.679 --> 00:11:43.279
Have I said everything I want to say to the people I care about?
00:11:43.440 --> 00:11:46.000
Have I helped the people I want to help in my life?
00:11:46.240 --> 00:11:53.120
Have I, you know, written my philosophy of life and to share it with my children and the people around me?
00:11:53.279 --> 00:12:04.080
And so I think ever since that sort of Yom Kippur where I almost died but didn't die, um I keep thinking of that day as imagine this is your last day on earth.
00:12:04.240 --> 00:12:16.000
And then the fasting for me is something that sort of helps me get a little bit closer to what it feels like to not be alive, and then through that to reconnect to why I want to be alive in the first place.
00:12:16.480 --> 00:12:27.039
It's really interesting hearing you talk similarly about the fasting side of it, but firstly that it did get you to that point of spiritual connection and I think the meaning of Yom Kippur.
00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:35.120
But listening to you talk about that, I kind of wonder you know, when we talk about rituals and meaning, what comes first?
00:12:35.360 --> 00:12:43.039
Do rituals become meaningful because we understand them, or do we understand them because we keep practicing the ritual?
00:12:43.440 --> 00:12:45.200
And which is more important?
00:12:45.600 --> 00:12:55.120
Yeah, look, I think of all the rituals that probably have the strongest association with, I'd say Pesach is probably first and foremost.
00:12:55.360 --> 00:13:14.399
When I was a Jewish studies teacher at Scopus and at King David, and in addition to running my own Pesach Setter, before Paysach used to run like 15 model stereum for younger kids where you would sort of basically do the setter in an hour, I'd sound with a guitar, I'd tell a few stories and manishtana, and we'd get mata and haross it all over our clothes.
00:13:14.559 --> 00:13:19.120
And then often, you know, I'd get to my own Pesach Setter and I was like, I've done this 15 times already.
00:13:19.519 --> 00:13:20.639
I'm not in the mood.
00:13:20.879 --> 00:13:29.279
But I also, because like, you know, I'm the Jewish educator in the family, almost always was running my own family setter from probably no pressure.
00:13:29.679 --> 00:13:32.399
Yeah, from the age of 25.
00:13:32.559 --> 00:13:39.679
And then I remember after we moved to Israel in in 2018, it was our first setter, you know, without our parents and grandparents.
00:13:39.919 --> 00:13:46.159
And we have these very close friends of ours who said, Why don't we go to Sinai for the setter to Egypt?
00:13:46.399 --> 00:13:47.519
And I was like, you know what?
00:13:47.679 --> 00:13:48.080
Why not?
00:13:48.240 --> 00:13:49.039
Like, I can do this.
00:13:49.440 --> 00:13:50.399
That's real reenactment.
00:13:50.559 --> 00:13:52.159
That's that's real reenactment.
00:13:52.320 --> 00:13:56.799
So we, you know, we packed up all the things, got a bus to Eilat, crossed the border into Egypt.
00:13:57.039 --> 00:14:02.320
Took like seven hours to get into Egypt because like thousands of Israelis go down to Sinai for Pesach.
00:14:02.960 --> 00:14:08.000
And my kids were like, I think about seven and ten at the time, so we had to pack heaps of things.
00:14:08.240 --> 00:14:14.879
We were in a sort of like a big husha, it's like a tent outdoors, so you have to bring a lot of gear with you.
00:14:15.039 --> 00:14:23.360
And I knew it was gonna be pesos, so I bought wine and kirush cups and matzah and lots of specific food that my kids like to eat.
00:14:23.600 --> 00:14:28.799
And then I realized that I'd also planned to bring haggadot, and then I hadn't bought haggadot.
00:14:28.960 --> 00:14:31.600
Like I'd bought everything except haggadot.
00:14:32.080 --> 00:14:35.600
And you know, every holiday when you pack, there's always one thing you forget.
00:14:35.759 --> 00:14:48.240
And so for this Pesach holiday, the one thing I forgot was haggadot, and I was making a Pesath setter 40 memory in Hebrew, and I was like, okay, look, you got this Sita.
00:14:48.480 --> 00:14:51.120
Like, I've done Pesach, you know, many times.
00:14:51.360 --> 00:15:00.559
I think I can remember most of the setter, at least I can remember the songs, and we also had no Wi-Fi as well, so I couldn't look up the Haggadah on a phone either.
00:15:00.639 --> 00:15:20.799
I just had to really like go for memory, and I felt like when we talk about reenactment, not only did I have to reenact sort of remembering as much of the haggadah as I could to facilitate this setter for 40 Israelis, you know, mostly dressed in like shorts and singlets, sitting on the beach as the sun was setting.
00:15:20.879 --> 00:15:34.080
But then I looked behind me and I saw the Gulf of Akaba, which, according to some historians, is actually the sea that the Jews crossed to get into to Jordan, and then from Jordan into the Promised Land.
00:15:34.320 --> 00:16:00.639
And then I was thinking, like, like I'm literally sitting, maybe in the place where it happened, and I'm with a group of Israelis in Hebrew with my guitar, singing, you know, Manishta Nain, Khadmiodeah, and Lishana Babi Rushalaim, and I've never felt further away from Jerusalem and the Promised Land than when I was in Egypt, even though Egypt is much, much closer geographically than Melbourne is.
00:16:00.960 --> 00:16:03.440
I just felt like I'm in the exile now.
00:16:03.679 --> 00:16:09.679
And at the end of Pesach, I'm gonna be going back up into my home, back to Jerusalem.
00:16:09.840 --> 00:16:17.039
And there was something about that Pesach that I think stays with me more than any other Pesach is a sense of reenacting.
00:16:17.279 --> 00:16:36.960
And you know, to go back to your question, the ritual was so much more powerful because I wasn't just sort of repeating something new, I was really like together with you know 40,000 Israelis that had come to Egypt, that Pesach, really reenacting something that gave it so much more meaning.
00:16:37.440 --> 00:16:38.720
And you were in Sinai.
00:16:38.879 --> 00:16:42.399
Yes, which made it much easier.
00:16:43.039 --> 00:16:48.960
Listening to you tell that story, it sounds like it's the meaning before the ritual.
00:16:49.279 --> 00:16:57.039
Had you had bought those haggadot, the ritual would have been easy, but you had to interpret it in your way.
00:16:57.360 --> 00:16:57.600
Yeah.
00:16:57.759 --> 00:17:00.240
This pesach, I was also away from home.
00:17:00.480 --> 00:17:08.400
First time I hosted, we had friends over or with young kids, you know, but everyone with their own rituals that they have from their home.
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:24.319
Like Pesach is also when you talk about ritual, it's the first one that comes to mind for me, which is interesting because you'd think Shabbat would be front of mind, but Pesach to me is peak Jewish ritual and enactment, which you've said.
00:17:24.559 --> 00:17:32.720
And, you know, there was a discussion whether we'd go home and celebrate with my family or do it in our own way, and it was really interesting to watch it come together.
00:17:32.960 --> 00:17:53.359
I think there's something really beautiful about, I mean, you're a Jewish educator, like the texts come natural to you, and you sing, and you've got guitar, so you can create this beautiful atmosphere, and I really felt more pressure and nerves having people into my house to create a ritual with than I did doing Yom Kippur on my own.
00:17:54.480 --> 00:17:56.799
Firstly, it had to have meaning for me and my kids.
00:17:56.880 --> 00:18:03.599
Like, you know, back home we do pesaks front to back, every word, every song with my family.
00:18:03.920 --> 00:18:14.240
But that's part of what the magic and the beauty and what makes, you know, it's long, it's chaotic, it's loud, we love the songs, you know, we've got songs that we add like our own little spicy blague.
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:22.240
Little like uh costumes and little plague uh we redo the costumes, and I'll tell you a fun fact about me.
00:18:22.480 --> 00:18:27.279
I am in Hagaja, I get to play the kid every time.
00:18:28.319 --> 00:18:30.480
I have been doing it for over 20 years.
00:18:30.640 --> 00:18:32.319
I make an epic goat noise.
00:18:32.400 --> 00:18:35.759
I will not do it here, but maybe it's add that to your resume on LinkedIn.
00:18:36.319 --> 00:18:37.200
The world needs to do that.
00:18:37.920 --> 00:18:39.279
It's on my LinkedIn sure.
00:18:39.440 --> 00:18:42.400
But there was something scary bringing families in.
00:18:42.480 --> 00:18:46.319
I know we share the same beliefs, but what if we have different rituals that we do in the home?
00:18:46.480 --> 00:18:48.079
Will I be able to bring that all together?
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:50.400
You know, new families, new people I didn't know.
00:18:50.720 --> 00:18:56.240
So, look, speaking of bringing in new people, I think you mentioned Shabbat.
00:18:56.400 --> 00:19:00.319
So in Jerusalem, my wife Khan works at the Prodes Institute of Jewish Studies.
00:19:00.400 --> 00:19:05.279
And by the way, to anyone listening to this that wants to study Torah into Jerusalem, come to Prodesh.
00:19:05.440 --> 00:19:18.559
Um, and we often have guests for Shabbat who are Prodes students who are mainly, you know, college students from the US or Australia or the UK or South Africa, and they've come to Jerusalem not just to study Torah but to find meaning.
00:19:18.799 --> 00:19:25.200
And Karma always tells me before Shabbat, you know, it's I these are six people, none of them know each other, they're new to the country.
00:19:25.440 --> 00:19:32.960
Be entertaining, like make sure that they feel welcome, play a game, ask a question, you know, do something.
00:19:33.200 --> 00:19:44.240
So I feel like Shabbat is always a time where if we have guests where I'm on for the guests, and if it's just our kids, then it's a much shorter meal and we just talk about our week.
00:19:44.400 --> 00:19:50.880
And I sometimes I just talk about the news that happened that week because there's always like big news that's very overwhelming in this country.
00:19:51.119 --> 00:20:03.599
But I think something I enjoy about Shabbat specifically is a ritual that I don't know if many people do, unless they're very religious, but is it's called Havdala, which is a ceremony that marks the end of Shabbat.
00:20:04.000 --> 00:20:12.480
Again, it involves a guitar and singing, and there's three blessings about candles and wine and psamim, which are these sweet scents.
00:20:12.640 --> 00:20:28.240
And I remember like when I was a youth movement leader in Hinaini or on various Jewish camps that I was a teacher at Scopus, and we always used to do Havala around the lake, and we'd all sit in a circle and na na na nay and all of that.
00:20:28.319 --> 00:20:29.680
And it was really beautiful.
00:20:43.680 --> 00:20:47.680
A lot of people have a certain tune that they use for haftala or for paysach.
00:20:47.839 --> 00:20:51.599
Even if it's a tune they learnt when they were 10 years old, they just can't get out of that tune.
00:20:51.680 --> 00:20:53.359
Like the tune is that.
00:20:53.440 --> 00:21:00.319
I I know shuls where there's been a breakaway because someone changed the tune for Le Khadodi, because it was like, this is the tune that we do.
00:21:00.480 --> 00:21:11.920
So I think in an era where there is, you know, everything's changing and everything's new, and now we're in the era of AI, like maybe the robots are going to take over the world in a few years.
00:21:12.240 --> 00:21:21.599
But so much of Jewish ritual is connecting us to our childhood, to our ancestors, to our family, to experiences we may have had on summer camps.
00:21:21.759 --> 00:21:25.599
And I think that's why we hold on to it, and that's why it gives us so much meaning.
00:21:53.599 --> 00:22:00.960
I know that I shared something similar when we started this conversation about a reenact because it's connection to my History.
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:12.319
And then I was thinking back to my own practice of rituals, and I guess the way you start with like sharing texts and knowledge, and I do the things because that's what we do.
00:22:12.559 --> 00:22:23.759
You know, for example, Shabbat growing up was alternating between my grandparents' houses, having big dinners, saying kiddush, but then everyone went off and did their own thing.
00:22:23.839 --> 00:22:25.519
It wasn't a particularly religious Shabbat.
00:22:25.599 --> 00:22:33.119
I mean, growing up, I went to show every Saturday, probably more because I enjoyed the kids' club than actually had any interest in praying.
00:22:36.880 --> 00:22:37.680
Absolutely.
00:22:37.920 --> 00:22:38.559
Yeah.
00:22:39.599 --> 00:22:41.519
I wasn't going without rewards.
00:22:41.759 --> 00:22:53.119
And I just I wonder if if I keep going like this, like at what point do I need to re-engage with text and find that meaning again?
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:57.920
And I guess that's part of you know why we're doing this podcast, that searching for why.
00:22:58.160 --> 00:23:11.839
You know, again, I've removed myself from community, Shabbat looks different, sometimes it's just me and my family, it's quieter, but then, you know, Saturday is sports, it's busy, it's hectic.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:23.519
Where do we find that balance between, I guess it's coming back to that meaning conversation again, but should there be guilt around not doing enough or rituals not looking a particular way?
00:23:24.160 --> 00:23:28.640
So, look, guilt is definitely a part of Jewish identity.
00:23:28.799 --> 00:23:32.720
It's part of what motivates people to do certain actions.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:34.559
And I think it's okay.
00:23:34.640 --> 00:23:49.599
Like if you feel like a festival should be involved fasting or should involve synagogue, and then for some reason that festival ends up on the beach or in a waterhole or at a sports game, and you feel guilty about that, then that guilt is coming up in you for a reason.
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:52.559
And you should explore, like, why is it that I feel guilty?
00:23:52.640 --> 00:23:56.640
Is this really what I want to be doing this this Saturday or this Rosh Hashanah?
00:23:57.039 --> 00:23:58.400
And if it is, then that's fine.
00:23:58.480 --> 00:24:05.920
And if it isn't, then you know, you need to have that conversation about what is it that I want to be using with my time on earth.
00:24:06.079 --> 00:24:12.240
You know, we we say in Judaism that when someone has a birthday, we say, Admeavesrim, that you should live till 120 years.
00:24:12.480 --> 00:24:16.319
But you think about it, it's like an insanely long time, like 120 years.
00:24:16.480 --> 00:24:19.039
Like, what am I gonna do in all of that time?
00:24:19.200 --> 00:24:44.559
But then each week, when we get to Shabbat, so many of us say, I was so busy this week, and there's so many things, and I didn't get to all my emails, and there was all these people I wanted to call, and I wanted to help someone out who was moving the house, and then someone asked me to read a draft of their book that I couldn't, and then someone else asked me for for advice to, you know, in a personal issue that were going on, and I tried to help them, but I really didn't have time to talk.
00:24:44.720 --> 00:25:13.200
And so we've got all this time of 120 years, but at the same time, like we're so time poor, and a lot of these rituals are really sort of like punctuating time, and they're they're popping little holes in this very crowded life we have, and they're saying, Hey, stop that now, go into a sukkar, or stop that it's it's Shabbat, or hey, it's Roshana, maybe you should travel to to be with your family that you don't live in the same country as.
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.880
And I think that's really important to break the routine.
00:25:17.440 --> 00:25:23.680
That actually really resonated with me because I was thinking back to some conversations I've had in my own house about why we do things.
00:25:23.759 --> 00:25:29.759
And I said, like I've said to my husband, sometimes we just do it because it makes us stop and think, oh, but we're Jewish and that's why.
00:25:29.920 --> 00:25:39.759
And that might just be a baseline, and it's not always a deep discussion on the depth of meaning, but sometimes that is it for me.
00:25:39.839 --> 00:25:42.480
It makes me stop, you know, keeping a kosher house.
00:25:42.559 --> 00:25:43.839
Like it's it's not that easy.
00:25:43.920 --> 00:25:46.960
It's not great to have to go and find kosher meat.
00:25:47.039 --> 00:25:48.160
It's really difficult.
00:25:48.319 --> 00:25:53.759
But there's something about that challenge, and I guess it's back to the oi versus joy and leading to the oi side.
00:25:53.920 --> 00:25:57.519
That challenge makes me stop and think, I'm Jewish and I'm doing this for a reason.
00:25:57.599 --> 00:26:02.720
I'm doing this because generations of people before me have done it, even though it's hard.
00:26:02.880 --> 00:26:06.480
And it actually makes me think, you know, we're talking about the beauty of rituals.
00:26:06.960 --> 00:26:12.480
Controversial question, but what are some rituals you do that you actually just don't enjoy?
00:26:12.960 --> 00:26:26.720
So probably the first one that comes to mind is Britney La, you know, the obligation to circumcise a male child at the age of eight days without an aesthetic and without consent of the child.
00:26:27.119 --> 00:26:28.640
And I do have a son.
00:26:28.880 --> 00:26:31.759
My wife and I struggled a lot with that commandment.
00:26:31.920 --> 00:26:44.880
You know, I looked into it and I studied it and I looked at various rationales for it, and I I've even sort of people have asked me for advice on it before, and I I listened to some advice that I gave to other people who are considering whether to do it or not.
00:26:45.039 --> 00:26:53.359
And then I realized I don't believe in this ritual, like I don't think it's necessary, I don't think it's logical, I don't understand why we still do it.
00:26:53.519 --> 00:26:55.759
I think it's it's quite cruel to be honest.
00:26:56.000 --> 00:26:58.960
And then I gave my son a Brit Miller as well.
00:26:59.440 --> 00:27:22.720
It's probably the only thing I've done in my life where I don't think I have any good reason for why I did it, and I just did it anyway, because usually most things that I do in my life, you know, I think very carefully about them, and I'm very measured and I evaluate and I research and I analyze, and now I probably ask AI what it thinks as well.
00:27:23.039 --> 00:27:29.759
But this was just one of those things that was totally illogical for both Carm and I, and we did it anyway.
00:27:30.079 --> 00:27:36.319
Again, coming back to this, you said it yourself, you research, you read the text, which is what I said at the start of today.
00:27:36.480 --> 00:27:45.440
You read the text and you do all the things because I also have a son, he's my youngest of three, and I have been to many other people's Brit Miller.
00:27:45.839 --> 00:28:06.720
I've been there, you know, for family and my nephews and cousins and friends' kids, and it's all part of the celebration, and often there is a celebration after, and I didn't think much about it until the morning of my son's, and my son was born in the first week of lockdown in Melbourne.
00:28:06.880 --> 00:28:19.519
I think it was the worldwide lockdown actually at the time for COVID, and you know, everything was so focused on COVID and keeping healthy, and it was only me and my husband that were allowed to go.
00:28:19.599 --> 00:28:36.400
In fact, I convinced the doctor slash mohell that did it that I'd have to bring my daughters because no one else could look after them because we were in lockdown, and they sat in the next room watching Paw Patrol, and my my husband held my son Bowie, which was unusual because you know you normally invite someone to hold.
00:28:36.559 --> 00:28:41.519
But I just remember this feeling of waking up in the morning going, are we really going to do this?
00:28:41.759 --> 00:28:45.920
Is this really what our religion is telling us to do?
00:28:46.079 --> 00:28:47.359
I've been to so many of these.
00:28:47.440 --> 00:28:49.599
Is this what everyone feels the morning of?
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:51.519
And they just do it anyway.
00:28:51.680 --> 00:28:55.279
And then I got dressed and I packed our bag and that's what we did.
00:28:56.240 --> 00:29:03.920
Even though the feeling and everything inside me, and I guess what got me through is the connection to history and generations before me.
00:29:04.000 --> 00:29:07.839
But yeah, I hear what you're saying, and thank you for sharing.
00:29:07.920 --> 00:29:24.559
Like it's it's yeah, and I think I think it's I think it's important to be, I don't know what the listener feedback is going to be like on this episode, but I think it's important to be to be honest about rituals that work, rituals that don't work, rituals that bring people together, rituals that separate people.
00:29:24.880 --> 00:29:39.519
I know for a lot of Jews there's a lot of pain associated with certain rituals, maybe because they've been estranged from their family or they have different views about Israel and Gaza, that they sort of can't be together now anymore on Pesach or on Rosh Hashanah.
00:29:39.839 --> 00:29:46.960
And these days are not necessarily days of joy or days of of comfort or days that they look forward to.
00:29:47.119 --> 00:29:49.839
And that's also part of the Jewish experience.
00:29:49.920 --> 00:30:08.799
And, you know, coming back to the to the theme of this topic, which of this podcast, which is finding out why, like the why sometimes comes from things going right, but it often comes from things going wrong, and then you're reflecting on those things going wrong and thinking, what can I do differently next time?
00:30:09.200 --> 00:30:11.920
It's a challenging but also a really beautiful reflection.
00:30:12.000 --> 00:30:24.240
And you're right, like I'm so grateful to all the family memories, but I also know once you, you know, even if you lose someone in the family or you start doing it differently, like a festival or ritual becomes harder.
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:37.359
So it's a really important reminder, but I think it brings me back to, I guess, reflecting on that Oi versus Joy discussion we had a few weeks ago, that Judaism wouldn't be the same without some of those challenges.
00:30:37.440 --> 00:30:40.799
You know, we do the things in spite of the difficulties.
00:30:41.200 --> 00:30:45.039
You know, we still come together, we still fight for community and ritual and connection.
00:30:45.119 --> 00:30:48.880
And I think what you said, it's a really important part in finding out why.
00:31:22.000 --> 00:31:27.920
I guess the question is, Courtney, what do you want those days to look like for you and your family next week?
00:31:28.319 --> 00:31:33.440
I really appreciate that we're having this conversation right now about ritual and belief and what that looks like.
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:44.799
Because whilst we're not in the middle of the Kimberley this year, we're still away from my regular shul hopping places and you know, things that make Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur easy for me.
00:31:44.960 --> 00:32:05.279
So this year I'm really hoping to create a space of new rituals with people we've met here, really trying to find the ways to make it meaningful for my family and for myself and making sure we're engaged, even if it's in our own way and not within a shawl, maybe our own little service at our house.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:21.759
And then in terms of my own reflection, what I love about Yom Kippur is really taking a moment to reflect on the year, and it's been a huge year of growth and change and challenge, and really want a moment to think about what that means for myself, for my family, for those around me, on what the next year could look like.
00:32:22.160 --> 00:32:24.559
That's a good thing to think about on Rosh Hashanah.
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:44.960
Look, in Jerusalem, look, my city, my country, is in the midst of a very nasty election campaign, and you know, we're still obviously not at peace with our neighbours, and I think there's a lot of violence here, and even in my own life and in my own work, I'm happy with what I'm doing with Seeds of Peace and bringing kids together.
00:32:45.119 --> 00:33:01.759
But I often, when I get to Rosh Hena Yom Kippur, I think a lot about sin and confession and who are the people that I need to confess to personally for things that I may have done that have hurt them, either intentionally or unintentionally.
00:33:01.920 --> 00:33:05.839
And then also as a nation, like what do we need to do chuva for?
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:14.000
What do we need to repent on as a collective, as a Jewish people, to make sure that the coming year doesn't have those behaviours.
00:33:14.160 --> 00:33:19.680
And I think everyone is going to have a very different list, both for for the personal and for the collective.
00:33:19.839 --> 00:33:29.359
I often write both my lists on social media every year because I feel like that's something I want to talk about, and that's what I'm probably going to do in the next couple of days.
00:33:29.599 --> 00:33:38.319
But I do feel that, you know, there's this notion on Roshan Hohen Kimpura that you're standing before a court and the court is going to judge you for your actions.
00:33:38.480 --> 00:33:50.240
And I think that accountability is really important, and then I hope that personally that I'm worthy when I stand before that heavenly court and that my people are as well.
00:33:50.960 --> 00:33:53.759
And that brings us to the end of episode six.
00:33:53.920 --> 00:33:59.119
I want to thank my co-host Itai for being here and sharing such beautiful reflections.
00:33:59.279 --> 00:34:08.880
And what I enjoy about our conversations is that we can each have different answers and different approaches, and there's no right or wrong way to practice.
00:34:09.039 --> 00:34:13.760
The thing about rituals, it's a guide for us, and we can each make of it what works for us.
00:34:14.239 --> 00:34:20.000
And thanks to Courtney for asking the questions that you do and bring the answers that you do.
00:34:20.159 --> 00:34:25.760
We live very different lives in different places, but I always learn so much from our conversation.
00:34:25.840 --> 00:34:28.960
So it's wonderful to be with you on this journey.
00:34:29.280 --> 00:34:35.280
We'd also like to thank Johnny Jenks, who creates the beautiful music that you hear in between the segments.
00:34:35.440 --> 00:34:47.840
And we've added some special music from festivals as well that you'll hear in this episode too, and also our editor Nick King that brings it all together to the Jewish Independent for supporting this podcast.
00:34:48.000 --> 00:34:53.920
As always, we welcome feedback at finding our why at the Jewish Independent.com.au.
00:34:54.559 --> 00:35:03.920
And if you enjoyed listening to this episode, then we've got other TJI podcasts that specifically are about festivals and rituals.
00:35:04.159 --> 00:35:17.679
Specifically, we'd love to give a shout out to Asham2 Admit, hosted by Tammy Sassman and Shoshana Gottlieb Becker, which is sort of a light-hearted conversation that delves into the Jewish knowledge you didn't learn at Sunday school.
00:35:17.840 --> 00:35:21.280
It's a great extension to this podcast conversation, so check that out too.
00:35:21.360 --> 00:35:27.519
And otherwise, wishing everyone a Hag Samach, Ashana Tova, and bye-bye.
00:35:27.840 --> 00:35:28.480
Bye.
