Disability Benefits: When Support Becomes a Trap

Title: The disability trap: Support systems stabilize but limit lives, Matthew McWade
(0:00) I had a severe uh anxiety phobia
(0:04) disorder when I was a teenager to the
(0:06) point where I was taken out of public
(0:08) school in 8th grade. I finished junior
(0:09) high home tutoring and then was
(0:11) transitioned back into school into a
(0:14) private school in 9th grade because the
(0:16) public school system wasn't working for
(0:18) me. You know, it was starting to cause
(0:20) problems with me and my relationships
(0:22) with my family. Um, I was starting to
(0:25) get involved with more shady people and
(0:27) more shady environments and
(0:28) circumstances to the point where I was
(0:30) arrested multiple times and I didn't
(0:32) care about any of these things. It was
(0:33) definitely sending me in the wrong
(0:35) direction. So, I said, "Stop direct
(0:36) depositing it. Send me paper checks."
(0:38) And they did that. And then when they
(0:40) caught up 9 months later, they were
(0:41) like, "You owe us this many thousands of
(0:43) dollars." And I went to the Social
(0:45) Security office and I gave them a stack
(0:46) of checks and they're like, "You still
(0:48) owe us three grand.
(0:55) >> [music]
(1:02) [music]
(1:08) [music]
(1:16) >> Hi, I'm Dr. Randy Bach. I'm honored
(1:18) today to have with me uh guest Matthew
(1:20) Mcuade and he is the author of My Escape
(1:23) from the Disabling Power of Disability
(1:25) Benefits. And this was published January
(1:28) 2026 in the blog and magazine called
(1:31) Madin in America. That's madinamea.com
(1:35) and I recommend you read it. uh I think
(1:38) it's transformative and uh he himself
(1:41) has been transformative for himself um
(1:44) and finding new abilities amongst what
(1:47) claimed disabilities. So Matthew um tell
(1:50) us a little about you your story and um
(1:53) how you came to write that article.
(1:55) >> Um well the part of my life that
(1:57) directly relates to the article I'd say
(2:00) probably around around the time um so
(2:04) I'll step back a little bit. I I I
(2:06) started smoking marijuana chronically at
(2:08) 16 and [clears throat] uh then around 19
(2:11) years old it stopped getting me high and
(2:14) started getting me psychotic um which
(2:17) made it very difficult for me to
(2:19) function within the community and uh my
(2:22) family uh the state legal system my
(2:24) psychiatric team put a lot of effort
(2:26) into me getting sober and I was not
(2:28) interested in that at all. So from about
(2:30) uh 19 to 22, I spent a good amount of
(2:34) time um in psych hospitals and rehabs.
(2:38) And um it was when I was in one of those
(2:41) psych hospitals that I became a
(2:43) department of mental health client and
(2:45) got on benefits. And then eventually my
(2:48) last, you know, out of the extended
(2:49) period around 22 years old, I got out of
(2:51) the hospital. Obviously still didn't
(2:54) want to get sober, but I was on
(2:55) probation because I had legal issues
(2:56) around getting sober. Um, but I did get
(2:59) sober at 22 and um, but anyways, I got
(3:02) put on benefits at 19 and kind of when I
(3:05) hit that point where I was in the
(3:06) community again at 22, and I talked a
(3:09) little bit about this in the article, I
(3:11) just kind of settled into this mode
(3:13) where it was like, okay, I'm on benefits
(3:15) now. I can just kind of rest in these
(3:17) for as long as possible, potentially the
(3:20) extent of my life and have a fairly um
(3:24) low threshold for responsibility, but
(3:27) also like a low amount of responsibility
(3:29) and just kind of relax forever. And I
(3:32) kind of sat in that mode for about nine
(3:34) months to a year. I went to a day
(3:35) program. I went to meetings and got
(3:37) sober, but I wasn't really serious about
(3:39) having any real aspirations. Um, and
(3:42) eventually, and I talked about this in
(3:44) the article that you read, I hit a point
(3:46) where it was like, "This is
(3:47) unfulfilling." And I saw everybody else,
(3:50) all the peers in my day program
(3:52) environment who already lived that that
(3:55) life just going forward. And I was like
(3:58) fearful like I I I don't want to do
(4:00) that. I don't want to be this for 40
(4:02) years. Maybe it was nice to do this for
(4:04) nine or 10 months, but this shouldn't be
(4:06) like the summary of my goals for my
(4:08) entire existence. So at that point in
(4:10) time, I put kind of a lot of effort
(4:13) into, you know, sustaining kind of
(4:16) self-ability, becoming uh not needing
(4:20) the benefits and becoming uh capable as
(4:22) an individual. And I I was able to
(4:25) completely come off of benefits. I think
(4:27) I got off disability in 2008 and I ended
(4:30) up getting out of my subsidized
(4:31) apartment in 2009. Um and I haven't
(4:34) needed any benefits since then. And I
(4:37) briefly alluded this to this in the
(4:38) article. I'm a peer worker. I've been
(4:39) doing it since 2006 and I've met a vast
(4:43) number of individuals with mental health
(4:45) issues and drug addictions who are on
(4:47) benefits who were in the same place that
(4:50) I was who are kind of like their entire
(4:52) aspiration is to protect those benefits.
(4:54) They won't work past a certain
(4:55) threshold. Some people very much
(4:57) consider themselves disabled for the
(4:59) rest of their life and they're never
(5:00) even going to try to get off. And in the
(5:03) 20 years that I've been working as a
(5:05) peer, I've literally only had one client
(5:07) who completely got off benefits and only
(5:09) heard rumors of a second client who
(5:11) completely got off benefits. And I've
(5:13) met and worked with dozens and dozens,
(5:16) maybe even up to a hundred people. And
(5:17) it's just the the amount of people who
(5:19) get stuck on the benefits and just kind
(5:20) of like, okay, I'm going to sit here and
(5:22) put a hedge around these and these are
(5:24) going to make things comfortable. Maybe
(5:26) they'll do a little school, maybe
(5:27) they'll do a little work, but not enough
(5:29) to really pierce through and become
(5:31) independent anymore. like the benefits
(5:33) are very important to protect. Some
(5:35) people won't work at all. I remember
(5:36) working with one client. He's very
(5:38) capable and I'm trying to instill that
(5:40) in him and kind of move him to be a
(5:42) little bit more independent in his
(5:43) abilities. And he's like, "But I get
(5:44) $240 in benefits a week and I have to
(5:47) protect those." And I'm like, "You could
(5:49) have so much more than $240 in benefits
(5:52) a week that you need to protect." So,
(5:54) it's a very quick summary, I guess. But
(5:56) >> yeah. No, it's interesting.
(5:58) [clears throat] I mean, it's kind of
(6:00) pops up or makes crystallize a lot of
(6:03) thoughts that I've had along the same
(6:04) way because I've treated narcotic
(6:07) addicts and just patients in general and
(6:09) I also did disability examinations for
(6:11) the state of Massachusetts or the
(6:12) Commonwealth and as well for the VA
(6:15) federally. Um, [clears throat] and you
(6:19) know, I'm kind of I had a reputation as
(6:20) Dr. No, the James Bond villain. uh that
(6:24) was the term that some people coined for
(6:26) me back in the 80s or so 90s uh because
(6:29) I would say no to many things you know
(6:31) people come in asking for drugs you know
(6:33) generally the answer was no narcotics
(6:34) and what not and for disabilities you
(6:36) know it's not like I automatically said
(6:38) no but I my frankly I tried to see the
(6:41) the diff the inverse that it's not I was
(6:44) saying no to disability I was trying to
(6:45) say yes to your capabilities and I
(6:48) literally had people come in for
(6:50) disability who wanted to be on
(6:51) disability for Massachusetts
(6:54) and young, you know, in their 20s or
(6:56) whatever. And I'm I'm going to
(6:57) exaggerate this, but let's say, you
(6:59) know, they had had a broken left hand,
(7:01) you know, a year ago.
(7:02) >> Yeah.
(7:03) >> And uh they want to be in disability.
(7:04) You know, the hand hurts and whatever.
(7:06) May not be the same as it was, but it's
(7:08) like, well, what did you do before?
(7:10) Well, I was a I don't know, fill in the
(7:12) blank, you know, uh interior decorator.
(7:16) Well, is there anything stopping you
(7:18) from doing that now? It's like I mean
(7:20) you know you work on a computer or you
(7:22) know whatever you you do a lot of things
(7:24) with your thoughts use the other hand to
(7:26) write with. It's like well no so I would
(7:28) write my disability exams you know
(7:30) according to I would write exactly what
(7:32) they had wrong with them you know not
(7:34) 100%. I mean let's be frank you know
(7:36) some things happen and they don't
(7:38) unhapp. So it could be that the you know
(7:40) left hand would didn't look the same.
(7:42) I'm just making this up,
(7:43) >> but I'd say, well, look, the left hand
(7:45) is has this mild deformity, whatever,
(7:46) but the person can do X, Y, and Z in the
(7:48) room. You know, she was able to do this,
(7:50) this, this, and this, and this. You
(7:51) know, her cognition's normal. This is
(7:53) normal. That's normal. So, rather than
(7:54) look at the glass half empty, I would
(7:57) try to see how full it was. Maybe it's
(7:59) not, you know, was maybe 5% empty, but
(8:01) 95% full. And you know, and the funny
(8:05) thing is that the state, you know, of
(8:07) Massachusetts,
(8:08) you know, they wound up uh eventually
(8:12) peeling me off as one of the physicians
(8:14) doing disability exams um because I had
(8:17) a practice of, you know, doing that.
(8:19) They said, "We just want to hear the
(8:21) disabilities. We don't want to hear any
(8:22) any positive stuff." And um but before
(8:26) that happened, I was still doing these
(8:27) exams and I had people that I, you know,
(8:29) just didn't think had any disability at
(8:30) all. might have been, you know, they had
(8:32) a scratch in their eye at one point, but
(8:33) it's all better. Yeah.
(8:34) >> And came and they came in and thanked
(8:36) me. They said, "Thank you, Dr. Boach,
(8:37) for getting me my disability." I'm like,
(8:39) "Oh, you're welcome." [laughter]
(8:42) >> In my view, it had I this is somebody I
(8:44) thought that never would get it, but the
(8:46) state was in the business of continuing
(8:48) the disability because in in large part,
(8:51) you know, the people who have those jobs
(8:52) at the state, they want to have work and
(8:55) they are, you know, I mean, this is my
(8:57) formulation. And I can't say this for
(8:58) the fact but you know their business is
(9:00) providing benefits and if they stop
(9:02) providing benefits then they are not
(9:03) needed in their own jobs.
(9:05) >> Kind of a funny thing but you know
(9:08) getting back you know enough about me
(9:09) let's get back to you. You know what was
(9:11) the kind of spark and motivation that
(9:13) you know changed your mind and your
(9:15) worldview
(9:17) >> uh that I wanted to come off of
(9:18) benefits.
(9:20) um just kind of when I was doing it one
(9:23) so I I definitely think the benefits
(9:25) were effective in the beginning. There
(9:27) was a period of time um when I was
(9:29) finally out of my series of incessant
(9:32) hospitalizations from 19 to 22 where I
(9:35) definitely needed to to ease back into
(9:37) my community responsibilities. Um but
(9:40) because of the benefits and my lack of
(9:42) real aspirations at that point in time
(9:44) that just meant going to a day program
(9:46) and living in a group home and getting
(9:47) sober. Um, the real thing that kind of
(9:50) pushed me out of that mold was, you
(9:53) know, I was very I was 100% of the
(9:55) mindset that like I'm just going to ride
(9:58) these disability benefits till the day I
(10:00) die. I mean, I'm on the subsidy list.
(10:02) I'm on the section 8 list. I'll get
(10:03) those. Um, and you know, it'll be a very
(10:06) low-key life. And like I rationalized
(10:08) this out in my head. Like that was fine.
(10:10) I was okay um not really accomplishing
(10:13) much and just kind of going to a day
(10:15) program and smoking cigarettes and just
(10:16) hanging out forever. And um eventually
(10:20) kind of being at a day program with 20
(10:23) 30 other people who went there on a
(10:25) daily basis who were in their 40s 50s
(10:27) and 60s who were doing that eventually I
(10:28) was like I don't think I can do this
(10:31) forever like this doesn't feel
(10:33) meaningful to my dignity as a human
(10:36) being. And uh I mean I didn't initially
(10:39) think like I'm going to completely get
(10:41) off benefits but I thought like I have
(10:43) to do more with my life. So, I got a
(10:44) part-time job and I started going back
(10:46) to school and I was just kind of like, I
(10:49) have to kind of feel things out. And the
(10:51) really kind of big moment that
(10:53) completely got me off my benefits was um
(10:55) after uh being about two years sober
(10:58) and, you know, working a part-time job
(11:00) and dabbling with school for a while, I
(11:02) eventually got a job um mentoring other
(11:04) young adults with mental health issues
(11:07) uh and drug addictions. And um as that
(11:11) happened uh that was around 2006 um peer
(11:14) support jobs for for mental health peer
(11:16) support became more prevalent. So when I
(11:18) first started that PM montorm position,
(11:20) it was kind of the only one in the area,
(11:22) but after doing it for a year, there was
(11:23) all of a sudden a career ladder and I
(11:25) got a better job in that field and it
(11:28) was the meaning and value I got out of
(11:32) that job, like how it enhanced my life
(11:35) um was enough for me to be like, okay, I
(11:39) think I'm willing to kind of work
(11:41) full-time now and completely get off of
(11:43) these benefits because all of a sudden I
(11:46) had more value, you know, taking the
(11:49) risk and being self-sufficient because
(11:50) of the meaning I got from doing peer
(11:52) support full-time than just kind of the
(11:56) low-key, low stress, low um potential
(12:00) for failure of just being on benefits
(12:02) forever. Um, so the the big hinging
(12:05) moment for me being able to become
(12:06) self-sufficient was the meaning I and
(12:09) value I got out of out of that work in
(12:11) that career. Um, that I was willing to
(12:13) take that leap.
(12:14) >> Yeah. So, how do how do things work out
(12:16) at home? I know that you spend some time
(12:19) at home and I guess I have a second
(12:20) question about I don't know. We'll just
(12:23) put one pick one of these two. We'll
(12:24) come back to the other one.
(12:26) >> Sure.
(12:26) >> Um the other question is kind of about
(12:28) the marijuana. What were your kind of
(12:30) directives and what was you know taught
(12:32) about marijuana either in the schools or
(12:34) amongst your peers or whatever. And when
(12:36) you're talking about being addicted to
(12:37) marijuana, people a lot of people think
(12:39) that it's not addictive. You know, it's
(12:40) a simple easy easy substance. You know,
(12:43) it's it's just like food and air and
(12:45) water and marijuana, all things they
(12:47) know people need. They founded, you
(12:48) know, thousand uses and whatever for
(12:50) marijuana
(12:51) >> in the legalization ramp up in
(12:53) Massachusetts, you know, we kept hearing
(12:55) about how marijuana, you know, saves
(12:57) glaucoma, it helps anxiety, you know,
(12:59) cleans your toilet, uh, you know, brings
(13:01) in the newspaper, um, you know, grows
(13:03) hair in your head, uh, you know,
(13:05) everything good about it. And I think,
(13:07) you know, obviously it was oversold.
(13:09) Alex Baronson
(13:11) um is a mystery writer and a kind of a
(13:14) public health critic in a way. Uh he has
(13:17) I think a book or at least a series of
(13:20) articles about some of the you know
(13:22) nonexplained dangers of marijuana and
(13:25) you know I feel at the very least it
(13:26) takes away ambition.
(13:27) >> Yeah.
(13:28) >> You know and I I just wondering you know
(13:31) we can do pick either one. Talk about
(13:32) your family and your home situation.
(13:34) Maybe we'll come back to the later but
(13:35) maybe stick on the marijuana one. what
(13:37) was your, you know, anticipation about
(13:39) marijuana. What was so wonderful about
(13:41) it and do you do you think that it's a
(13:43) trap in any ways?
(13:45) >> So, um, you you you mentioned it when
(13:47) you were talking how it helps with
(13:48) anxiety. Um, I had a severe uh anxiety
(13:53) phobia disorder when I was a teenager to
(13:56) the point where I was taken out of
(13:57) public school in 8th grade. I finished
(13:59) junior high home tutoring and then was
(14:01) transitioned back into school into a
(14:04) private school in ninth grade because
(14:06) the public school system wasn't working
(14:07) for me. And um marijuana made it so I
(14:11) could be around other people and not be
(14:13) completely freaking out internally. But
(14:16) like where initially marijuana was
(14:18) something that helped me be social with
(14:21) my peers within a month of the first
(14:23) time I smoked pot it became abusive. it
(14:26) became me doing it by myself for effect
(14:28) every night. And that's kind of the path
(14:31) I was on from about 16 to 19. And um you
(14:36) know it was starting to cause problems
(14:38) with me and my relationships with my
(14:40) family. Um I was starting to get
(14:44) involved with more shady people and more
(14:46) shady environments and circumstances to
(14:48) the point where I was arrested multiple
(14:49) times. And I didn't care about any of
(14:51) these things. It was definitely sending
(14:52) me in the wrong direction. And then
(14:54) around a couple weeks before I turned
(14:57) 18, uh, in 2001, the marijuana stopped
(15:01) getting me high, like kind of like a
(15:04) mellowing uh, effect, and started making
(15:07) me psychotic. And every time I smoked
(15:09) marijuana from that point in time
(15:11) onward, I immediately had a psychotic
(15:14) episode. And I was smoking marijuana
(15:16) daily and enjoying my psychotic
(15:18) episodes. And that created even more
(15:20) problems for me legally with my family,
(15:22) all sorts of other issues. Um, the
(15:25) second time I was committed to a psych
(15:27) hospital. I was actually sent to a
(15:28) forensic unit first and it was either
(15:30) jail or a psych hospital and they said
(15:32) he's too psychotic to go to jail, which
(15:34) is obviously a blessing. I wouldn't have
(15:35) wanted to go to jail. But there was a
(15:37) point in time where marijuana stopped
(15:39) being just a fun social drug. And every
(15:42) time I did it, I was immediately
(15:44) launched into this like psychotic
(15:46) experience where my brain was
(15:47) misinterpreting what was going on in the
(15:49) environment around me as if it was
(15:51) communicating with me. Everything was
(15:53) communicating with me and it was
(15:54) incredibly overwhelming. And then I
(15:56) started liking it and then my parents
(15:58) were trying me to get off it. The legal
(16:00) system was trying to get me off it and I
(16:01) was fighting that and it just led to all
(16:03) sorts of difficulties. So it was
(16:05) definitely not like a a cure all safe
(16:08) drug. It it really was very uh it it
(16:12) totally booted me out of all my life
(16:14) plans. I was literally going to going to
(16:16) start going to Emerson College and the
(16:18) first week of the first semester it just
(16:20) the psychosis got so overwhelming. It
(16:22) was just like three years of
(16:23) hospitalizations and it completely
(16:25) knocked me off the path I had for my
(16:27) life. Um luckily I've been able to reset
(16:30) since then. But
(16:31) >> So how did how did you literally afford
(16:34) the drug? I mean where where came from?
(16:38) I I've been working since I was 16. So,
(16:40) I I pretty much always had a job and
(16:42) that was like my primary thing that I
(16:43) spent my money on. Cigarettes, gasoline,
(16:46) and marijuana.
(16:47) >> So, here's a silly question. Uh, did
(16:49) your parents at any point charge you
(16:51) rent?
(16:52) >> Uh, no. No.
(16:55) And I didn't always even live with them.
(16:57) When I was in high school, my last year
(16:59) of high school, I spent half of my time
(17:01) living with my girlfriend's family. So,
(17:02) but whenever I was with my parents, no.
(17:04) And I I was kind of they kicked me out
(17:07) when I was 19. And they were nice enough
(17:09) to pay a family friend to let me board
(17:12) there. And within I pretty much dropped
(17:14) out of school that term. I was just
(17:16) smoking weed in her yard and playing
(17:17) with her dogs. And I'd say within three
(17:19) weeks to a month of that after my
(17:22) parents kicked me out and didn't want to
(17:23) talk with me. I was arrested for the
(17:26) third time and that got me on probation
(17:28) which sent me to my first commitment.
(17:30) And then you know for the next three
(17:31) years from 19 to 22 I wasn't really in
(17:34) the community. I was just probably 20 of
(17:36) those months I was hospitalized and
(17:39) small increments of being in the
(17:41) community. Um and then eventually in a
(17:44) group home after after all that ended
(17:45) where I was able to kind of clean up my
(17:47) life and get on a better path.
(17:50) Okay. So we're going to take a short
(17:51) break and uh we're going to be right
(17:53) back with Matthew McQuade. This is
(17:55) America Outlaw Pulse. Always a beat
(17:57) ahead.
(18:08) >> [music]
(18:13) [music]
(18:19) [music]
(18:26) >> So, we're back for our second segment
(18:28) with Matthew McUade and he is an author
(18:31) at Matt in America. I can't remember the
(18:33) whole title but it uh is basically how
(18:35) he got his life back from the disability
(18:38) trap. And I do think that there is a
(18:40) valid disability trap. I I can tell you
(18:43) again, this is about Matthew, but uh I
(18:46) from the other side, I've had my own uh
(18:49) brushups, and frankly, my medical career
(18:52) was was um wrongly um suspended on what
(18:58) was an anger from a man who thought his
(19:00) disability was going to be taken away by
(19:02) me. Um so, the anecdote goes, I've
(19:05) written about this elsewhere, people can
(19:06) find it. I think I write about it in in
(19:09) uh my Substack in a piece called
(19:10) Breaking Bad Medicine. Um and this was a
(19:14) guy who was 10 years at the time and
(19:15) he's since passed away from narcotic
(19:18) overdose, which is sad in and of itself.
(19:20) He didn't follow through on treatment.
(19:21) Came to me for narcotic detox via
(19:24) Suboxone. I only saw him this one time.
(19:26) We never undertook the the um Suboxone
(19:30) detox pathway, but he was on heroin and
(19:32) he was uh he was disabled from a big,
(19:36) you know, manufacturing company of the
(19:38) largest in the region and had had a a
(19:41) significant job there. He wasn't running
(19:42) the place, but he had a real job and
(19:45) somewhere along the line he got in back
(19:47) pain and then a couple surgeries,
(19:48) whatever, but he had recovered from
(19:49) those. But he was on disability. He
(19:51) started liking the disability and maybe,
(19:53) you know, he started doing drugs. I
(19:54) don't know which point, before, after,
(19:56) during, and he was at this point on
(19:58) heroin. Um, but he was doing odd jobs.
(20:01) He was doing fences and he was selling
(20:04) heroin and he was fixing up his mom's
(20:06) house and running another property. So,
(20:07) he was not an incompetent man. And um
(20:11) you know I I he wanted to kind of clean
(20:13) up his life um with uh you know get off
(20:17) the the heroin whatnot and also save
(20:20) money because he was spending $250
(20:22) whatever $150 $200 a day on the habit
(20:25) and since he wasn't working you know
(20:27) it's kind of amazing thing that a lot of
(20:29) my drug addicts were on disability they
(20:30) always you know managed to do enough
(20:32) able things um despite their
(20:34) disabilities they had capabilities to
(20:37) get enough money for drugs. So that's
(20:39) that's kind of one funny or odd thing
(20:41) about it. And so we were talking about I
(20:43) said, "Look, I can get you off the one
(20:45) drug, put you on the other drug,
(20:46) temporizing. But if you want to stay
(20:48) away from drugs, you need to have kind
(20:50) of a positive impetus in your life. You
(20:52) need to have that internal flame going
(20:54) and feel good about yourself." And right
(20:56) now, it's kind of a game of hideand-seek
(20:58) where you're hiding in a way. Um, and
(21:01) not not to say anybody's seeking you
(21:03) out, but in a way, you know, you I I
(21:06) could tell from talking with him, he
(21:07) was, you know, a little bit embarrassed
(21:08) about the whole situation. And if you
(21:11) want to look in the mirror and see
(21:12) somebody that you like looking back at
(21:14) you, you have to be doing things that
(21:16) are positive, and formative, and, you
(21:17) know, in a sense, I think we all
(21:19) understand good and bad and right and
(21:21) wrong, all kind of stuff. Anyway, I left
(21:23) it there and, you know, I had some other
(21:25) patients to see. He had to do a urine
(21:26) specimen, blah, blah, blah. You know,
(21:27) blood test, whatever. So, I came back,
(21:29) you know, I was kind of roaming by, you
(21:31) know, his open door and he called me in
(21:33) and he was kind of in tears and uh, you
(21:36) know, he was a big guy. He's like, you
(21:37) know, 6'3 and 300 lb and, you know, you
(21:40) don't usually see that. And he said, you
(21:42) know, Dr. Bach, you're right. I said,
(21:45) well, I'm always right, but but
(21:47) specifically about what in this case.
(21:49) And he said, I'm lazy. He's lazy. And
(21:53) and and I'm like, what what do you mean?
(21:54) And he says, "You know, I I you're right
(21:57) about what I'm doing. I'm lazy. I don't
(22:00) want to go back. I It's easy getting the
(22:02) money and doing stuff and and you know,
(22:05) being drugged, whatever." And I, you
(22:07) know, I I am capable. Blah blah blah.
(22:08) You know, the back is not that bad
(22:10) anymore. I'm doing all this stuff.
(22:12) You're you hit it right on nail on the
(22:14) head. I said, "Well, you know what?
(22:15) That's incredible." You know, he says,
(22:17) "But, you know, I don't I don't want you
(22:20) to, you know, tattle on my disability."
(22:22) I said, 'Th that's not my job, you know.
(22:24) I'm not my my job's not that, you know,
(22:26) I I don't work with them. I'm working
(22:29) for you. I'm your agent. You know, this
(22:30) is kind of like a lawyer, client, you
(22:32) know, doctor patient relationship. And,
(22:35) you know, we'll get you back on the
(22:36) straight and narrow. And I never saw him
(22:38) again. And it was an odd thing because
(22:40) he had he'd kind of broken down
(22:41) emotionally. And then three months
(22:43) later, uh, he sent in this absurd claim
(22:45) to the state and exaggerated, you know,
(22:48) everything. I had touched him in the
(22:49) belly because he was overweight. I said,
(22:50) "You got to lose weight." He he said I
(22:52) punched him. You know that kind of
(22:53) thing. Just like everything was a
(22:54) grandized. I don't know what happened to
(22:56) him in the meanwhile that he turned
(22:57) against but he never showed up for the
(22:58) treatment and that letter became the the
(23:02) kind of the the I don't know force
(23:04) behind you know everybody looking at my
(23:06) treatment program and I didn't think
(23:08) narcotic addiction was a disease and
(23:10) that put me kind of outside what the
(23:12) modern you know wrong thinking is about
(23:15) the whole thing. But a lot of it has to,
(23:17) you know, tied in. My basic theory is
(23:20) that, you know, we are human souls and
(23:22) we have human needs and we do best when
(23:25) we kind of, you [laughter] know, you
(23:28) could put it in a religious concept, you
(23:30) know, glorify God. But even outside a
(23:32) religious concept, you know, we have
(23:34) that kind of divinity within us. We have
(23:36) this sense of who we should be and what
(23:38) we should do best. And when we veer from
(23:40) that, we are miserable. Anyway, that's a
(23:43) long preface. I apologize for that. Um,
(23:45) but I'm wondering, you know, how uh how
(23:48) you felt then, you know, in kind of the
(23:51) mar marijuana fog? Have you been back?
(23:53) Um, you know, where where does that
(23:56) place you and what's kind of the kind of
(23:58) thing that pushing you forward and how
(23:59) do you impart that to other people in
(24:01) your, you know, first while similar
(24:03) situation of what you had been then and
(24:06) how you can get out.
(24:08) >> Can you be a little clear? I'm I'm
(24:10) sorry. I don't understand the question.
(24:11) Well, the question is, you know, what's
(24:13) what's the thing that kind of motivates
(24:14) you daytoday that keeps you from going
(24:16) back from some of the previous habits or
(24:18) or activities and whatnot? And and
(24:21) what's the kind of thing you impart to
(24:22) the people that you deal with?
(24:26) >> Oh, um it's basically what keeps me
(24:28) sober. Is that the question?
(24:31) >> Sure. Or what's what's the part that
(24:33) kind of you know when you when you do
(24:35) this kind of
(24:35) >> pyramid go back to benefits and things
(24:37) like that?
(24:37) >> Well, what you you aren't what what is
(24:39) it you're doing right now? you talking
(24:41) about in your your article, you're
(24:42) talking about peer management and you're
(24:45) I assume helping others in this similar
(24:46) situation. Am I wrong?
(24:48) >> Yeah. Yeah. So, um I do peer counseling.
(24:51) I do that full-time now. Um the people I
(24:54) work with have either mental health
(24:56) issues or drug addictions or both. Um
(24:58) oh, I love my clients. I love working
(25:00) with my clients. I love seeing them. Um,
(25:03) one of the things that is the most uh, I
(25:08) don't know what word to use, maybe
(25:09) disenfranchising about the whole
(25:10) experience is that I think all of them
(25:13) except for one is on benefits and is
(25:16) very much into protecting their
(25:17) benefits. And that's one of the things
(25:20) um, that I definitely discourages me a
(25:22) little is that the the people who I work
(25:25) with end up getting on these
(25:26) entitlements and just end up limiting
(25:28) their lives for it. Uh, and I see very
(25:30) few people getting out of that. But, um,
(25:34) one of my other I have one client who
(25:35) isn't on benefits now and he's young and
(25:37) he was thinking of signing up and I'm
(25:39) like, "Don't do it. Just become
(25:40) self-sufficient right now. You don't
(25:42) have a lot of bills. You're 19. You
(25:43) don't have to worry about it. Don't get
(25:44) it on the benefits. Trust me, cuz you're
(25:46) going to get stuck and you're not going
(25:47) to get off." Um, but just like even
(25:50) helping people in the smallest way, just
(25:52) taking any step towards recovery. Um
(25:54) because I mean unfortunately I see one
(25:56) of the things that can happen in the
(25:58) traditional system is a lot of people
(25:59) can fall into it for that safety net and
(26:01) just kind of lay there and be like okay
(26:04) and I really like helping people take
(26:06) any steps um to to better themselves.
(26:09) Um, I I I have utilized 12step programs
(26:13) for my personal sobriety and recovery
(26:15) and I've kind of branched out with those
(26:18) steps into a place that like it's my
(26:20) responsibility to be consistently
(26:23) working on myself. Um, and when I do
(26:25) become aware of my own faults, going
(26:27) back and trying to fix those up and I
(26:29) find that in my work, I can kind of
(26:31) apply those principles with the people I
(26:33) work with, even even in the smallest
(26:35) areas. doesn't have to be like huge
(26:37) things like getting a job or going back
(26:39) to school or becoming self-sufficient.
(26:40) Just like one person I'm working with is
(26:42) figuring out how to manage food better
(26:44) in relation to diabetes. Any any steps
(26:46) for just like fixing things up on even
(26:49) the smallest levels is is very rewarding
(26:51) for me to help people with. Um and I I
(26:55) get that out of my employment which I
(26:56) love.
(26:57) >> Yeah.
(26:58) >> And then I get to also Sorry, one more
(27:00) thing. So there's me and there's one
(27:02) other peer worker where I work and we
(27:04) also get to be an example to the other
(27:06) traditional staff members that like you
(27:08) know people can take steps because
(27:11) sometimes the people we're serving don't
(27:13) always take those steps so we can be
(27:14) there and be like well we both did it
(27:16) and then it just it it keeps the hope
(27:18) alive.
(27:18) >> Yeah.
(27:18) >> There was something in your article that
(27:20) really struck me. You said take that
(27:22) risk and you know we live in a a time
(27:25) where there's a term called harm
(27:27) reduction. This is something I also
(27:29) encountered in my uh Suboxone treatment.
(27:31) I had a four-month tapering program and
(27:33) I wanted people to get to sobriety
(27:35) >> and that sort of like I implied before
(27:38) frowned upon because there's this
(27:40) disease model that narcotic addiction is
(27:42) a disease and taking away the you know
(27:45) replacement narcotic whether it's
(27:46) methadone or suboxone is like taking
(27:48) diabetes away from a type 1 diabetic.
(27:51) >> Yeah.
(27:51) >> And I don't I don't think I don't see it
(27:53) that way. We we stop people with
(27:54) alcoholism from their drug all the time.
(27:57) We don't give them, you know, if they
(27:59) have a whiskey problem, we don't give
(28:00) them replacement vodka
(28:02) and and you know, and if if you're Tiger
(28:05) Woods, you know, with a sex problem, we
(28:07) don't give you, you know, a Call Girl,
(28:09) you know, three times a week and uh, you
(28:11) know, go to the the Lotus Spa, wherever,
(28:14) you know, we we don't do that. We don't
(28:16) do that for if you're gambler. We don't
(28:18) give you a bunch of chips and, you know,
(28:19) say we just want you to go to Moheaggan
(28:21) Sun, you know, three times a week
(28:22) instead of eight. you know, it's like we
(28:25) don't do that for any other problem
(28:26) that's an addiction. Um, but you know
(28:29) what happens what I've heard uh from the
(28:32) pe from the other treatment people that
(28:35) these people were seeing is that they
(28:37) were told to stay on the drug because
(28:39) they don't want to take a risk of you
(28:42) know getting readicted and they might
(28:44) overdose and die.
(28:46) >> So I'm wondering whether there's any
(28:47) push back for your concept you know
(28:49) amongst the state. I assume you have
(28:52) some uh kind of state employer um you
(28:55) know employment you know what's the
(28:58) what's the mindset there and what about
(29:00) take the risk and what do you recommend
(29:02) for that
(29:04) well so when I originally wrote the
(29:06) article um I actually wrote the entire
(29:10) article to be metaphorically and
(29:12) applicable to pretty much anybody who
(29:14) gets into a place of complacency where
(29:16) there's work that can be done um and it
(29:18) got a little caught up in the editing
(29:20) process
(29:21) Um, but I mean
(29:24) my original goal with the article, which
(29:26) got altered a little through the editing
(29:28) process, was that like pretty much
(29:30) everybody in this world can start
(29:31) settling for things at some point in
(29:33) time that they ultimately might not even
(29:35) be enjoying to the most capacity or
(29:37) might not be completely beneficial. And
(29:40) I wanted it using the example of myself
(29:43) coming off of disability benefits kind
(29:45) of implying to people like
(29:48) who take a personal disability in
(29:50) themselves to protect their comfort when
(29:53) they should probably be working on
(29:56) something to bettering themselves. Um,
(30:00) so when I when I wrote that original
(30:02) take the risk thing, it was kind of like
(30:04) I just see so many people just kind of
(30:06) getting stuck in these ruts and you know
(30:10) kind of because it's enough because it's
(30:12) getting them by because it's getting
(30:14) them what they need even if it's not
(30:16) 100% fulfilling just being okay with
(30:18) that. And I just kind of wanna um I was
(30:22) kind of in a space myself where I'm just
(30:24) kind of branching out and trying to, you
(30:27) know, better completely. And I just
(30:28) wanted to imply that through the
(30:29) article,
(30:29) >> right? Well, it does [clears throat]
(30:30) take work. I mean, literally and
(30:32) figuratively.
(30:33) >> Yeah.
(30:33) >> You know, there's a whole paniply of
(30:35) benefits that people have. You know,
(30:37) again, amongst my, you know, cohort of
(30:40) patients that I was seeing, not just the
(30:41) drug patient, but others in general,
(30:43) they get, you know, basically they get
(30:45) Mass Health, which is state Medicaid
(30:47) benefits, and they get free insurancees,
(30:48) no deductible, no co-ayment.
(30:51) >> Better than most of your insuranceances.
(30:54) >> It's pretty much accepted universally.
(30:56) There might be some differential places
(30:57) you can't, you know, you may not get top
(30:59) tier, whatever, but for the most part
(31:01) that that that takes you anywhere. Um,
(31:04) >> then section 8 housing means you're
(31:06) paying, you know, somewhere between zero
(31:08) and, you know, like$100 or $200 a month
(31:10) for apartments that probably cost, you
(31:13) know, a couple thousand or something
(31:14) like that or more. It's like then
(31:17) there's there's sometimes a disability
(31:19) payment whether it's state disability or
(31:21) federal SSI or SSDI or you're getting a
(31:24) stipen check for thousand or 2,000
(31:27) whatever a month.
(31:28) >> Um and then am I missing any? Um oh yeah
(31:32) food stamps.
(31:32) >> Yeah.
(31:33) >> Um and so you're getting you know free
(31:35) food what I mean the only thing that's
(31:36) not free is maybe a haircut and and your
(31:38) drug. Um so the KO Institute had a a
(31:42) study on this probably about 15 years
(31:44) ago. So, the numbers have probably
(31:45) changed, but at the time, you know,
(31:47) probably in today's dollars, maybe
(31:48) $80,000. Uh, and in order to leave all
(31:52) that Yeah.
(31:53) >> and the fact that you're you're not
(31:54) having to pay for child care, you're not
(31:56) having to pay for
(31:58) >> um, you know, transportation, what if
(32:00) you do get a job, it has to be like an
(32:02) 80,000, $90,000 a year job for you to
(32:06) lose all those things before you can get
(32:07) health benefits and, you know, that
(32:10) amount of food, that amount of rent, D,
(32:12) and and plus have to pay, you know,
(32:14) transportation and so forth and get a,
(32:16) you know, dress up and and, you know, so
(32:18) forth. There's a lot of stuff you have
(32:20) to do. So, it's not the switch over
(32:22) part. You know, trains when they go from
(32:24) place to other, they have a little track
(32:25) and they just move over. They go on the
(32:27) next track.
(32:28) >> Yeah.
(32:28) >> But this is more like, you know, jumping
(32:30) from the the the parking lot to the
(32:32) third floor of a building. It's a it's a
(32:34) tough thing and people, you know, don't
(32:36) have really a gradual pathway. Um,
(32:40) it just they just cut you off. There's a
(32:43) slight transition, but
(32:44) >> I know I know with the social security
(32:46) it's like there's an extended period of
(32:48) eligibility where like every month
(32:50) you're under the SGAA, you get it. Every
(32:51) month you're over the SGAA, you don't
(32:52) get it. And then once that three-year
(32:54) period's over, second you're over the
(32:56) SGA, it's done. Um, and I know from my
(32:59) experience when I hit that point and
(33:00) from other people I've met who've had
(33:02) the risk there, it usually doesn't even
(33:04) just come with the fact that, okay,
(33:05) you're not getting benefits now. It's
(33:07) like Social Security is like, we're
(33:09) dealing with so many millions of people,
(33:10) we dropped the ball. we should have
(33:12) taken it away from you months or years
(33:13) ago and you owe us this much. I had a
(33:15) client, I think it was last year, a year
(33:17) and a half ago, who who hit that exact
(33:19) spot where they were like, okay, you you
(33:21) went over your flag amounts and hit the
(33:22) SGA amount like 2022, you owe us
(33:26) $30,000. And it was like, whoa, because
(33:28) it's not like, okay, he's going to be
(33:30) responsible for working more and paying
(33:31) more of his bills. He also owes the
(33:33) government $30,000 now. And that's just
(33:36) like frightening. I mean, it's that's a
(33:39) that's a nightmare for somebody who's
(33:41) already, you know, on a lower financial
(33:44) level that they need those benefits.
(33:45) Now, they owe this massive amount of
(33:47) money to the government. And I know when
(33:49) I came off of benefits in 2008, it
(33:51) wasn't like, "Okay, you're done with the
(33:53) benefits now." It was like, "Okay, we
(33:55) messed up. We should have taken away
(33:56) from you a long time ago." Luckily, I
(33:59) realized I was off my benefits before
(34:01) they did. I called them up. I'm like,
(34:02) "You're supposed to stop sending me
(34:04) benefits." So, like, this is not how we
(34:05) work. So I said, "Stop direct depositing
(34:08) it. Send me paper checks." And they did
(34:09) that. And then when they caught up nine
(34:11) months later, they were like, "You owe
(34:13) us this many thousands of dollars." And
(34:15) I went to the Social Security office and
(34:17) I gave them a stack of checks and
(34:18) they're like, "You still owe us three
(34:19) grand." So it's not just like, "Okay,
(34:21) now you hit the line, you don't get
(34:22) benefits." They're so behind the ball
(34:25) that people owe them a lot of money. I
(34:27) heard this was a rumor, I never met this
(34:29) person, but I heard through a social
(34:30) worker that there was one client who it
(34:32) took them like a decade to realize they
(34:34) should have stopped the benefits. the
(34:35) person owed them like $120,000.
(34:38) Um, I had a friend who had a similar
(34:40) issue and luckily he went to Social
(34:42) Security and complained and they gave
(34:43) him an exemption. That would have been
(34:45) several thousand. But I mean, it's not
(34:47) just like, okay, you're losing the
(34:49) benefits now. They're they're so behind
(34:50) the ball that consistently people end up
(34:53) owing them these massive sums as well,
(34:55) which is impossible for people who are
(34:57) already so poor that they need a
(34:58) benefits at one point in time, just
(35:00) squeaking above the benefit amount. When
(35:02) I came off of benefits in 2008, 2009,
(35:07) making $28,000 a year was enough to get
(35:10) me off the benefits. So, I wasn't making
(35:12) a ton of money. Now I owe them $3,000 on
(35:15) top of that. Um, and now I don't have
(35:17) the subsidy anymore. So, I have to pay
(35:18) for the apartment and all of my bills
(35:20) and my health insurance and everything.
(35:21) And I owe them money. It was
(35:23) frightening. Um, and I've seen that
(35:26) happen to other people as well. I think
(35:27) it's fairly common.
(35:30) All right, so we're going to take
(35:31) another break. Um, this is America
(35:33) Allowive Pulse Radio. Always a beat
(35:35) ahead. Stick with us for our next
(35:37) segment with Matthew McUade. Uh, thank
(35:39) you.
(35:58) >> [music]
(36:07) >> So, we're back for our third and final
(36:08) segment. This is America Outlaw Pulse
(36:10) Radio. I'm Dr. Randy Bach. I'm trying to
(36:13) uh bring truth to medical situations and
(36:16) social ones in a sense, bring the
(36:18) spotlight. in today's discussion is
(36:19) about uh disability and you know the
(36:23) fact that kind of disability payments
(36:25) can be disabling uh in and of themselves
(36:28) in a sense they can be immobilizing
(36:30) um and I'm here with Matthew McQuade and
(36:33) I'm very much in his debt for being with
(36:34) us today he's the author of an article
(36:37) in Madden America
(36:40) um Matthew I'm just curious you know how
(36:44) how many other people can follow in your
(36:47) uh footsteps I
(36:48) Do you have say underlying I don't want
(36:52) to use misuse the term but do you have
(36:53) underlying you know psychological or
(36:55) psychiatric pathology um issues and
(36:58) whatnot um what are the the kind of
(37:01) things that people um get caught up with
(37:04) on a diagnosis basis or a medication
(37:06) basis potentially I'll just and I I'm
(37:09) sorry for this but this is one little
(37:11) side note you know I treated patients
(37:12) for decades in my medical practice I had
(37:14) a a guy and he was not a hugely bright
(37:18) man. He lived with his mom. Um but he
(37:21) was doing small tasks um you know kind
(37:24) of manual labor stuff. And one day I he
(37:27) had like a manic depressor or some kind
(37:29) of psychotic break but he was already in
(37:31) his 50s I believe. Uh and then he wound
(37:34) up getting into the psychiatric hospital
(37:37) and came back and he was never the same.
(37:39) He was on huge doses of of psychotropic
(37:42) uh drugs. I assume major tranquilizers
(37:45) like for schizophrenia and whatnot and
(37:47) he had been given some type of
(37:48) schizoeffective diagnosis and you know
(37:51) he had like literally spittle coming
(37:53) down the side of his face. His whole uh
(37:56) demeanor was was really numbed and
(37:58) slowed and he looked drugged in a sense
(38:00) and um you know he uh you know was not
(38:05) the same person. Now that that's an
(38:07) extreme example um but what what what's
(38:09) the kind of the interface between the
(38:11) psychiatric world the diagnosis world
(38:13) and the working world and how do you
(38:15) navigate those if there's some you know
(38:17) possibility you might have you know
(38:18) psychotic break or whatever I mean what
(38:20) are those things for you and how do they
(38:22) play out say for your people you come
(38:24) into contact with and what do you think
(38:25) about the diagnosis andor the treatments
(38:29) >> um so I would definitely say that I
(38:32) don't think having symptoms uh excludes
(38:34) people from being self-sufficient on any
(38:36) level. Um, I've l been lucky enough in
(38:40) the work I've done with peer support to
(38:42) get to work for a couple agencies that
(38:43) were peer support agencies where
(38:45) everybody had diagnosible experiences
(38:47) and they were all 100% capable and not
(38:50) inhibited really on any level that would
(38:52) prevent them from taking care of
(38:53) themselves or anything like that. Um me
(38:55) personally from the point when I was
(38:58) around 19 years old when I started
(39:00) having those psychotic experiences off
(39:01) of marijuana that became permanent and
(39:04) that has never gone away. And when
(39:06) people ask me to describe that
(39:07) experience I basically say at when the
(39:11) symptoms are lightest on a daily basis.
(39:13) I do not know what reality is and I live
(39:15) on several realities on a daily basis.
(39:18) Um, sometimes for extended periods of
(39:21) time, sometimes whole days in a row, I
(39:23) will be in what I call normal mortal
(39:25) everyday reality that I assume everybody
(39:27) else is living in. And very
(39:28) consistently, I will be in realities
(39:30) that are probably not real. And that's
(39:32) constant and has been constant since I
(39:34) was 19. But that does not prevent me
(39:37) from working full-time and taking care
(39:38) of myself and functioning within the
(39:40) community. Um, I'm pretty good at coping
(39:43) with things. I'm pretty good at being
(39:45) aware when I'm in those states and
(39:47) dealing with them. And then I mean to be
(39:50) completely honest with you, some of them
(39:51) are very enjoyable and I wouldn't want
(39:53) to throw them away and I think they
(39:54) enhance my character and my life and my
(39:56) experiences. Um some of them are
(39:58) completely spiritual experiences for me.
(40:00) Um they enhance my moral capabilities.
(40:03) Um and I would not want to throw them
(40:05) away or even um say they were something
(40:08) I would want to be medicated or
(40:10) diagnosed for. And I just think the
(40:11) psychiatric industry doesn't understand
(40:14) all of them completely. Um, but some of
(40:16) the psychotic experiences and the places
(40:18) where my mind takes me are definitely
(40:20) things that I would rather not have to
(40:22) deal with that the medication helps with
(40:24) and that I like to talk to my therapist
(40:26) and people with stuff like that to
(40:28) figure out ways to cope with. Um, but
(40:30) that's just the way it goes.
(40:33) So to those I mean you know if we ever
(40:36) go on an airplane or a train or whatever
(40:38) you don't necessarily want your pilot or
(40:40) conductor to be having a psychotic
(40:42) episode you know while he's driving that
(40:44) thing
(40:45) >> nor your bus nor your bus driver nor
(40:47) frankly you know
(40:48) >> not to fly any planes.
(40:50) >> Yeah. Or or your policeman or whatever.
(40:51) You don't want a psychotic policeman.
(40:53) >> Yeah.
(40:54) >> Luckily I'm in a field that allows me to
(40:57) have these experiences and it doesn't
(40:58) end up being a hindrance.
(41:00) >> So so what what's what's the situation?
(41:02) I mean, does it happen kind of in your
(41:03) spare time, your downtime, whatever? And
(41:06) is it hallucinatory? I mean, do you see
(41:08) uh you know, little jumping frogs in
(41:10) front of you or they see the world
(41:11) ripple or you trying to get in your own
(41:13) mind or what's what's the deal?
(41:15) >> Uh, it's predominantly a perspective
(41:19) thing. Um, sometimes my brain just
(41:22) interprets things happening around me as
(41:25) if they're communicative to me. Um,
(41:28) sometimes it's conspiratorial.
(41:30) my brain will interpret um
(41:36) other people's conversations are veiled
(41:38) conversations about me. Um people could
(41:41) my brain will convince me that people
(41:43) can hear my thought patterns
(41:45) being filmed things like that. Um
(41:49) >> different stuff like that. I mean I have
(41:51) had visual and auditory hallucinations.
(41:53) They're not predominantly what goes on.
(41:55) It's usually my brain misinterpreting
(41:57) what's going on outside of me. And a lot
(42:00) of the time, um, I can kind of work my
(42:03) way through those things, realizing, oh,
(42:05) this is a symptom. This is not real. And
(42:07) that helps me not get too involved in
(42:09) it. Um, the the two things that kind of
(42:13) cause everything to escalate are um the
(42:17) amount of stress I'm under in relation
(42:19) to the experience. Um, the amount of
(42:22) stress I'm under will is is definitely
(42:25) connected with how much I can kind of
(42:29) extricate myself from the belief that
(42:31) the symptoms are actually real. Um, the
(42:34) more I believe that people are lying to
(42:35) me or something like that, the harder it
(42:37) is to keep the stress down and cope and
(42:40) stay kind of a witness to the symptoms
(42:42) as opposed to kind of being driven by
(42:44) them. Um, but they don't really prevent
(42:47) me from functioning on any level.
(42:50) So [clears throat] the people that you
(42:52) are seeing, what are the what's the
(42:54) predominant diagnoses and how fixed are
(42:56) those diagnoses? I mean I, you know, I I
(42:59) I'm kind of quizzical or puzzled or on
(43:02) the fence about something like ADHD. I'm
(43:04) old enough uh to have lived in a world
(43:06) where there was no ADHD. There was no
(43:08) ADD.
(43:09) >> Um it was really the word autism was not
(43:12) used either.
(43:14) >> Um and there was far far far less
(43:16) addiction. you know, a lot of the I
(43:19) mean, frankly, you know, it's almost
(43:21) what's called now the classic era of um
(43:24) narcotic addiction. From the 20s to the
(43:26) 70s or so, there was basically almost
(43:28) zero heroin addiction in the entire
(43:31) country.
(43:32) >> And so that's that's kind of informs my
(43:34) childhood, whatnot. Um, and we've seen
(43:36) everything else grow in the meanwhile.
(43:38) There's more homelessness, there's more
(43:40) anxiety, there's more narcotic
(43:42) addiction, now there's sexual
(43:43) dysmorphia, um, there's ADHD. And we we
(43:47) also see this kind of autism boom, but I
(43:49) I I'm a little bit, you know, I don't
(43:51) think there's been that much more
(43:53) increase in severe autism, but a lot of
(43:55) more labels come around that we've had
(43:57) this mental health parody wherein, you
(43:59) know, we we see and treat a lot more
(44:01) people for a lot more things than we
(44:03) ever did before. Um, I'm just wondering
(44:06) what are the kind of things that get in
(44:07) this rut and can you differentiate
(44:09) people who might get out versus not? I
(44:11) mean again this is me um but I I think
(44:14) you know true schizophrenia is a very is
(44:17) a genuine disability you know I think uh
(44:20) people you know who have had um that uh
(44:23) it you know they can be medicated but
(44:25) it's kind of a chronic recurring thing
(44:27) somebody I don't want you know driving
(44:28) my bus and whatnot. Um, but in the realm
(44:31) of the other things, I I think they're
(44:33) very much manageable problems
(44:35) oftentimes, especially the way autism
(44:36) has been kind of reconfigured into
(44:39) Asberers and the spectrum, all this kind
(44:41) of stuff away from, you know, what is
(44:42) classically the severe autistic. Anyway,
(44:45) so that's a complicated question. So to
(44:46) kind of parse it down a little bit, um,
(44:49) what are the kind of diagnoses attached
(44:51) to the people that you encounter and,
(44:53) uh, can you make any kind of assessment
(44:55) based on what those things are, how well
(44:57) people might do thereafter?
(44:59) So being a peer worker, I try to stay
(45:02) away from diagnosis. Even when
(45:04) supervisors and social workers and
(45:06) people above me have tried to get me to
(45:08) read literature and become more familiar
(45:10) with diagnosis and things like that,
(45:12) it's something I try to purposely stay
(45:13) away from. I get more involved in what
(45:16) the individuals I'm working with are
(45:17) actually experiencing and what they want
(45:20) in relation to those experiences. Um
(45:23) what do they want to try to grow in
(45:24) relation to those? Are these things they
(45:26) value? Like where where are the
(45:28) roadblocks? How do we navigate those? I
(45:30) try not to get involved in a lot of the
(45:33) aspects that the traditional mental
(45:34) health system uses because
(45:37) um I don't I don't know that's just not
(45:39) how I work. I don't necessarily always
(45:41) find it valid, I guess, is a way to put
(45:43) it. Um I don't like diagnosis for
(45:46) myself. Um I think they can be limiting.
(45:48) Um, I think that from my experience,
(45:51) sometimes people the the traditional
(45:55) mental health industry will kind of be
(45:57) trying to treat a diagnosis or a symptom
(46:00) or get rid of it. And some of the
(46:01) clients might not want that. They just
(46:03) might want the se severity tapered down.
(46:05) I had a manic episode in October that
(46:07) lasted through November that sent me to
(46:09) the hospital for the first time since
(46:10) 2009 and actually led me to write that
(46:12) article uh out of some ideas. I had my
(46:15) manic episode and I got a lot out of
(46:17) that manic episode. I enjoyed it. I'm
(46:19) happy I went through it. I wouldn't have
(46:20) wanted to pass it up. The worst part of
(46:22) the experience was how restrictive the
(46:24) psych unit was. And when I got out of
(46:26) the unit, my mom was like, "Well, what
(46:27) can we do to make it easier the next
(46:28) time?" I said, "Figure out how to let me
(46:30) go through my manic episode in the
(46:32) community because I would have been
(46:33) fine. I just would have needed to take
(46:35) work off for a little bit." Um, and the
(46:37) hospital was the worst part. The the
(46:38) services the traditional mental health
(46:40) system offer me was the worst part. So,
(46:42) I don't like to get involved in
(46:44) diagnosis. Um, I don't necessarily want
(46:47) to throw away all my diagnosible
(46:48) experiences. Some of them I find them
(46:50) completely valuable. Um, I was talking
(46:53) to one of my clients a few weeks ago
(46:54) about how he's been kind of cycling and
(46:58) hitting crisises more common than not
(47:00) lately and how he wished he could go
(47:02) into the hospital for three or four days
(47:04) just to de-stress and then they would
(47:05) let him out and he could deal with his
(47:07) symptoms in the community where it would
(47:08) be most productive. And the worst part
(47:10) of the the few crisis he's had in the
(47:12) last year is that when he did go to the
(47:14) hospital for support, the second he
(47:16) didn't need their support anymore, they
(47:17) were like, "No, we don't trust you.
(47:19) We're holding you against your will
(47:20) now." Um, so I mean, I wouldn't even say
(47:24) all the things I would reach out to
(47:27) treatment for so that treatment can kind
(47:29) of help me get through it would
(47:31) necessarily be things I want to throw
(47:33) away. It's just sometimes it's too
(47:34) intense. Sometimes I need a little help.
(47:36) I don't it's not like an all or nothing
(47:38) thing like all the mental illness
(47:40) illness has to go away. It's wrong and
(47:41) it's evil. It has no value. It's not
(47:43) valid and it has to be purged from my
(47:45) character. That's not how I experience
(47:47) it. Um and I try not to get into that
(47:49) with the people I work with. I don't
(47:50) even touch diagnosis. I don't even want
(47:52) to know. We'll just talk about what are
(47:53) the experiences, where are you trying to
(47:54) go, how can we help.
(47:56) >> Fair enough. So, so we're kind of
(47:58) rounding out our hour. We got maybe like
(48:00) uh eight or 10 minutes, something like
(48:02) that. Um, [clears throat]
(48:05) I'm I'm kind of uh, you know, curious to
(48:08) hear your advice regarding two things, I
(48:11) guess. One would be how to ramp down uh,
(48:15) the disability payments to kind of wean
(48:18) people off the way I was weaning people
(48:19) off narcotics using Suboxone, but less
(48:22) and less and less and less and less over
(48:24) the days and months and whatnot. That's
(48:26) number one. Number two, um, marijuana
(48:29) seems to be become a big industry. you
(48:32) know, should there be a huge warning
(48:33) label? I we get them on cigarette packs.
(48:35) I assume they have them at the marijuana
(48:36) stores. I've never frequented one, but
(48:39) should there be kind of a a a you know,
(48:41) a movement away from marijuana as this
(48:44) kind of great cure all recreational
(48:46) thing? Are there dangers there that
(48:47) you've seen in any cohort aside from
(48:49) yourself about kind of the the paniple
(48:52) problems and, you know, psychotic
(48:54) episodes and whatnot from the marijuana?
(48:56) I mean, do you think that's a real thing
(48:57) or is it just happened coincidentally
(48:58) while you were happen to be on it? Um,
(49:01) so I guess I'll talk about the the uh
(49:03) getting off the social security thing
(49:04) and the first thing that popped into my
(49:06) mind the second you mentioned that was
(49:07) that I was talking to one of the case
(49:09) managers at my office recently and we
(49:11) were talking about how specifically with
(49:13) SSDI we wish there was like a tapering
(49:15) down process. Like I know how SSI works
(49:18) like you can make like $65 I think and
(49:21) it doesn't matter and then after that
(49:22) it's a two for one split. Every $2 you
(49:24) make they take a dollar away. So you can
(49:26) kind of make money and the checks will
(49:27) go down. Um, but with social security,
(49:30) like social security disability
(49:31) payments, there's a line and you just
(49:33) lose them. And she had a client who was
(49:36) trying to get off of the benefits and
(49:37) work more. And it was like an all or
(49:39) nothing thing. And she was kind of like,
(49:40) I wish like she could work more and get
(49:42) less of a check and kind of it could
(49:45) like she could become more
(49:46) self-sufficient and responsible for her
(49:48) finances and the benefits would go down
(49:50) instead of like, okay, you made over the
(49:52) SGA, it's just done now. Um, if they
(49:54) could kind of have like a you could ramp
(49:56) up your work and lower the benefits and
(49:59) kind of ease yourself out instead of
(50:00) like, oh, you crossed the line and by
(50:02) the way, you owe us a couple grand. Um,
(50:04) I think that would be really helpful.
(50:06) Um, I've been sober since 2004, so I've
(50:09) really only encountered people being
(50:11) involved with marijuana um, since it's
(50:13) been legal and all that stuff through my
(50:15) work and through 12step programs. From
(50:17) the readings I've done and stuff like
(50:19) that, it sounds like especially with the
(50:22) prevalence of edibles, there's been like
(50:24) a huge uptick in people, uh,
(50:27) specifically because from my experience
(50:29) smoking marijuana, it's usually a little
(50:31) bit of a depressant. When you eat it,
(50:32) you get the hallucinogenic effect. Um,
(50:35) and now that you can just go to the
(50:37) store and buy like a candy bar with like
(50:38) 50 grams of pot in it and get confused
(50:40) and like it's like eat one gram of one
(50:42) corner and you're like you're stupid.
(50:43) You don't know what you're doing. you
(50:44) eat the whole bar and then you're in the
(50:46) the hospital because you think your body
(50:47) dissolved and like you accidentally
(50:49) killed your imaginary friend. Um I I
(50:51) I've heard that that's, you know,
(50:53) skyrocketed up since the edibles have
(50:55) been come so easily to obtain now that
(50:58) it's legal. Um I I' don't know what the
(51:01) actual statistics are, but I've read
(51:03) that the people going to the emergency
(51:05) room because they're having psychotic
(51:06) experiences on animals is just like
(51:08) skyrocketed since the legalization. Um,
(51:11) but I haven't I mean I'm not in the
(51:13) community using it in those environments
(51:15) for 20 over 21 years now. So I I don't
(51:18) necessarily see it. I only encounter it
(51:20) when I meet people with 12step programs
(51:23) or you know people that I work with.
(51:25) >> Yeah. So I was at a party uh this is
(51:29) probably 20some years ago maybe longer
(51:31) 25 years ago was we were playing poker
(51:34) and it was a regular poker party
(51:36) [clears throat] and uh somebody brought
(51:37) food or whatever and so there were chips
(51:39) and this and that. It's poker. Bunch of
(51:41) guys.
(51:42) >> Yeah.
(51:42) >> And uh you know there were some desserts
(51:44) out and so I took one of the desserts
(51:46) and there was little cakes and whatnot
(51:48) and somebody said you know that that's
(51:50) herbal. I'm like oh I thought it was
(51:52) like I I thought it meant like vegan you
(51:54) know herbs and whatnot all nicy nice.
(51:56) And so I had a piece or two and um
(52:01) and [laughter]
(52:03) you know started feeling different and I
(52:05) I wasn't a marijuana user you know I've
(52:07) kind of had you know I might have a you
(52:09) know a glass of beer maybe every few
(52:12) days or whatever. not a big drug guy
(52:13) ever. And anyway, by the time I got
(52:16) home, you know, it was like they were
(52:18) all laughing because I I said, "What was
(52:21) in that?" You know, it's like, "Oh, that
(52:22) we had XY." You know, this is before
(52:24) legal marijuana and whatnot. But
(52:26) >> I hadn't willingly taken it. So, I in a
(52:28) sense I was drugged, but probably
(52:30) because I was, you know, stupid. I
(52:31) didn't realize what he had meant when he
(52:32) had said that.
(52:33) >> Terrible. Yeah.
(52:35) >> And uh and I came home and I I looked in
(52:38) the mirror and you know, everything was
(52:40) like what you're talking about like
(52:41) dripping. It was like everything was
(52:43) like moving around. It was like, you
(52:44) know, I kind of looked like that Ed
(52:46) Edward Moo uh the scream painting. You
(52:48) know, the guy's got his hands on
(52:50) >> and everything's just all like moving
(52:52) around. It wasn't colors changing, but
(52:55) you know, I looked at myself and I
(52:56) looked old and I, you know, all this I'm
(52:59) like, "Oh my god, I got to be at work in
(53:00) the morning. Like, what is this going to
(53:02) be like?" And you know I and I I I
(53:05) wasn't like wobbly or anything like that
(53:08) but everything was just anyway. So I got
(53:10) to bed and I you know I had the alarm
(53:11) set and I got up and I was fine you
(53:13) know. So the story doesn't have you know
(53:15) much of an ending to it. Um except that
(53:17) I did experience that and it you know
(53:19) people you know I think downplay the
(53:22) kind of hallucinogenic and psychoactic
(53:25) active parts of marijuana. I don't you
(53:27) know fully understand the brain
(53:29) chemistry part. Um, and obviously there
(53:33) are some things that can, you know,
(53:34) bring that about. I mean, L LSD and
(53:36) mushrooms and whatnot bring genuine
(53:38) hallucinations and I'm not sure how that
(53:40) coincides with the marijuana part. Um,
(53:43) but you know, this can be, you know, a
(53:46) disorienting thing. I mean, I at that
(53:47) point I was probably in my 40s or
(53:49) whatever. You know, I had a stable job
(53:50) and I own things and whatnot. and and
(53:53) that was like, whoa, you know, if I were
(53:55) like younger and had less basis, you
(53:57) know, in stability and whatnot, I mean,
(53:59) that could be a very um, you know, kind
(54:01) of I don't know. I suppose it could be
(54:03) an attractive experience for some people
(54:05) who are unhappy with themselves or their
(54:06) lives or whatnot. Um, it didn't lead me
(54:10) to go want to do that the next day. I
(54:11) didn't and I haven't, I don't think,
(54:13) ever since. Um but uh you know should
(54:17) there be you know kind of any ramping
(54:18) back on kind of the marijuana frenzy
(54:20) that has t overtaken our commercial
(54:23) districts and you know pretty much every
(54:25) uh you know small town main street.
(54:28) >> I mean I don't I don't I don't know how
(54:30) you really legally control these things.
(54:32) If you just make it illegal again it's
(54:34) just going to have the black market and
(54:36) people are going to find their way to do
(54:37) it. People who who who are drawn to that
(54:39) stuff and want to do that stuff are
(54:40) always going to find a way to do it.
(54:41) People love to make money in capitalist
(54:44) society. So, somebody's going to figure
(54:45) out a way how to make money on it. I
(54:47) mean, the the only real thing that I
(54:49) find uh that really gets people to
(54:52) change on any level, and this this
(54:54) involves drug addiction as well or drug
(54:56) use, is the person for some reason or
(54:59) another, whatever the circumstances are
(55:01) leading to it, leading them to in
(55:03) themselves interpersonally deciding that
(55:05) that's a choice they either never want
(55:07) to start or have to step away from. I
(55:09) mean, trying to legislate that stuff.
(55:11) Um,
(55:13) you can only control people's physical
(55:15) interaction with environments and
(55:17) circumstances and objects so much.
(55:20) They're going to find a way around it if
(55:21) they want to, if that's really what they
(55:22) want to do. Um, the second you're not
(55:25) controlling them or watching them,
(55:26) they'll they'll figure out how to do it
(55:27) if that's what they want to do, if they
(55:29) want to experiment with it, if they've
(55:30) liked it and they want to continue using
(55:31) it. People are I mean, what how much can
(55:34) you really supervise people? like ho how
(55:36) how aware and powerful can a person or
(55:38) an entity really be to control other
(55:40) things? It's the the the choice not to
(55:43) want to do those things or to want to
(55:44) stop doing those things or not to want
(55:46) to start doing those things is always
(55:47) going to be an individual thing. So you
(55:50) basically you have to create people who
(55:52) from the get-go would not want to do
(55:54) that stuff. What's that Frederick
(55:56) Douglas quote? Uh creating children that
(55:59) don't become broken adults or something
(56:01) like that. I don't remember the whole
(56:02) quote. And uh I remember when I first uh
(56:05) joined AA um back in 2004, my sponsor
(56:09) Sam told me he was gonna help me become
(56:11) the type of person who wouldn't want to
(56:13) do drugs in the first place. Like that
(56:15) was the promise of the 12 steps that I
(56:16) would become the type of person who
(56:18) wouldn't even want to use anyways. So it
(56:20) just wouldn't be an issue. And it's like
(56:22) a question like how do you make somebody
(56:25) have that type of personality before
(56:26) they even interact with the drugs? Um I
(56:29) don't know. Uh it really it's more than
(56:32) the government can do. Uh I don't know.
(56:35) >> Yeah. No, I I I agree with you. I think
(56:37) that you know along the same lines I
(56:38) mentioned all the things growing. We've
(56:40) seen more divorce. Uh we've seen more
(56:43) family breakup and whatnot. There's a
(56:45) joke in psych uh it's like how many
(56:47) psychiatrists does it take to change a
(56:49) light bulb? It's like well only one
(56:51) psychiatrist but the light bulb has to
(56:53) really really want to be changed.
(56:55) >> Yeah.
(56:56) >> So we're gonna end it right there. So,
(56:58) any last last words, Matthew?
(57:00) >> No, I'm okay. It's great to be here.
(57:01) Thank you so much.
(57:03) >> Well, thank you so much. I appreciate
(57:04) it. And uh can people find you in any
(57:07) place or uh
(57:09) >> um
(57:10) not really. I just canceled my Facebook
(57:12) recently. I don't really have any uh I
(57:14) guess you could email me.
(57:16) >> All right. We'll call it a day and we'll
(57:18) I'm not going to put that out publicly,
(57:19) but they can find your article and maybe
(57:21) uh track you down the way I uh was able
(57:24) to. So, thank you so much. I appreciate
(57:26) you being on
(57:28) Thank you so much.