Dr S Jaishankar Interview: Foreign Policy, International Relations, and Geopolitics In Changing World

WEBVTT
1
00:00:01.879 --> 00:00:07.360
Welcome to another episode of Express Conversations, a podcast where eminent voices from the
2
00:00:07.360 --> 00:00:12.039
world of politics, governance, sports, business and arts talk to us about
3
00:00:12.039 --> 00:00:16.640
their life, work and issues that
really matter. In this episode, we'll
4
00:00:16.640 --> 00:00:20.519
hear from doctor S. J.
Shunker, Minister of External Affairs. He
5
00:00:20.600 --> 00:00:25.879
will be in conversation with Anantoenka and
doctor c Raja Mohan, contributing editor of
6
00:00:26.000 --> 00:00:29.920
the in An Express. They will
be talking about India's foreign policy in a
7
00:00:30.000 --> 00:00:34.520
changing world, the country's relations with
its neighbors, and doctor J. Shunka's
8
00:00:34.560 --> 00:00:40.439
recent book Vibe Here It Matters,
you know, Doctor Ja Shunka, tell
9
00:00:40.479 --> 00:00:45.119
you when I had I was about
I think I was fourteen years old and
10
00:00:45.159 --> 00:00:49.039
I was sort of after I go
to school. I used to go into
11
00:00:49.119 --> 00:00:52.880
my mom or dad's office whichever was
going to have me in that said school
12
00:00:52.960 --> 00:00:57.200
uniform behind, you know, behind
them. And I was in a meeting
13
00:00:57.240 --> 00:01:00.520
once where the one of the sales
guys came in and said, like the
14
00:01:00.560 --> 00:01:06.079
client, there's a particular advertiser client. He's very unhappy because he had booked
15
00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:08.920
an insight page ad and we put
the ad on the international page of the
16
00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:14.840
newspaper. So he said that any
ad for the inside page, any pages
17
00:01:14.840 --> 00:01:19.280
is okay, but not the international
page. The international page. You've changed
18
00:01:19.280 --> 00:01:29.439
that have well, I proved your
revenues might have made a job a tiny
19
00:01:29.480 --> 00:01:33.000
bit easier. You definitely made journalism
in form of policy a lot more accessible
20
00:01:33.000 --> 00:01:34.599
and easier. For sure people actually
read and consume it. No, but
21
00:01:36.560 --> 00:01:38.920
I read the book, Absolutely loved
it. I read the book the previous
22
00:01:38.920 --> 00:01:45.719
book as well. Highly recommend it
because I think it really shows a sort
23
00:01:45.719 --> 00:01:49.719
of the thought process behind all the
nimbleness and the competitiveness that doctor Deshanka talks
24
00:01:49.719 --> 00:01:53.560
about. And we've all read him
and heard him saying on Insta reels and
25
00:01:55.280 --> 00:02:00.760
Facebook lives and posts and all of
that, but it talks about making foreign
26
00:02:00.760 --> 00:02:02.879
policy accessible. And that's a big
thing that you've done, is using why
27
00:02:02.879 --> 00:02:07.239
does foreign policy matter to you?
Is a big part of what you've kind
28
00:02:07.239 --> 00:02:10.199
of said. So just walk us
through exactly that that. How how have
29
00:02:10.280 --> 00:02:14.599
you become this kind of rock star
of foreign policy? And like, I
30
00:02:14.639 --> 00:02:16.240
mean, I got a seventeen year
old, you know, messaging meeting.
31
00:02:16.280 --> 00:02:21.000
I want to come and get a
selfie with operation. I've got messages like
32
00:02:21.039 --> 00:02:24.759
it's only for like Wikikosh and Sharukhan. But I'm not you know. Now,
33
00:02:25.000 --> 00:02:31.280
let me let me in a way
to two questions, One why you
34
00:02:31.319 --> 00:02:38.919
know, how foreign policy has become
popular or why is it relevant? The
35
00:02:38.240 --> 00:02:42.879
other in a way why the book
in one close from the other, because
36
00:02:43.479 --> 00:02:49.240
I wrote the book primarily to convince
people that today foreign policy does matter to
37
00:02:49.280 --> 00:02:52.960
you, that it is not something
which is on the inside page of Indian
38
00:02:53.000 --> 00:02:59.319
Express. Occasionally there are first page
stories as well. But if you actually
39
00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:04.360
look at our lives, you know, last five years, ten years,
40
00:03:04.719 --> 00:03:09.479
with each passing years, something abroad
has happened which has fundamentally changed our life.
41
00:03:09.800 --> 00:03:13.680
And the biggest thing in the last
five years has been COVID. You
42
00:03:13.719 --> 00:03:17.560
know when COVID, first news of
COVID came out, you know, this
43
00:03:17.639 --> 00:03:23.039
would have been early January. You
know which one of you would have thought
44
00:03:23.159 --> 00:03:27.759
that next two and a half years
this is going to take over your lives.
45
00:03:28.560 --> 00:03:31.960
Now it's not just COVID. There
have been conflicts in the world before.
46
00:03:32.639 --> 00:03:37.759
But if you look today at the
conflict in Ukraine, or you look
47
00:03:37.840 --> 00:03:42.919
at what's happening in Gaza and the
Red Sea, it's actually affecting bread and
48
00:03:42.960 --> 00:03:46.719
butter issues in this country. You
know, your petrol price goes up sometimes.
49
00:03:46.960 --> 00:03:52.120
Unfortunately we are not a food importing
country anymore. But we saw in
50
00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:55.400
Sri Lanka for example, that you
know, food prices went up, petrol
51
00:03:55.439 --> 00:04:02.199
prices went up. Generally, inflation
goes up because of Again, you know,
52
00:04:02.319 --> 00:04:08.919
we had there are people here who
are involved in international education. Now
53
00:04:09.199 --> 00:04:13.960
you know we have today about one
point one one point two million students studying
54
00:04:13.960 --> 00:04:17.360
abroad at any given time. So
the moment there is conflict, the first
55
00:04:17.439 --> 00:04:19.879
question we ask ourselves. So,
okay, how many of our people are
56
00:04:19.879 --> 00:04:25.240
out there? Now we've done I
mean again, you look at the last
57
00:04:25.240 --> 00:04:28.800
few years. We had Operation Gangha
and Ukraine, we had Operation Kaveri in
58
00:04:28.839 --> 00:04:33.279
Sudan and people go to work today. You know, COVID was for us
59
00:04:33.319 --> 00:04:40.399
an amazing experience to discover how many
Indians are working abroad and you know they're
60
00:04:41.120 --> 00:04:45.040
in Many of them are people whose
jobs are abroad, but they live in
61
00:04:45.040 --> 00:04:49.120
India. You know, shipping,
you know, people in maritime shipping,
62
00:04:49.360 --> 00:04:58.000
airline staff, hotel staff, students. So the globalization of India today,
63
00:04:58.680 --> 00:05:03.240
it's important for us to understand it, recognize it, worry about it sometimes.
64
00:05:03.240 --> 00:05:06.480
But also look at the opportunities in
it. Now, why did I
65
00:05:06.519 --> 00:05:10.399
write the book? I mean partly, I kind of write the stuff.
66
00:05:11.199 --> 00:05:15.439
I mostly do my own. You
know, foreign ministers have to speak,
67
00:05:15.439 --> 00:05:19.680
so I had a long history of
writing for other people. I thought I
68
00:05:19.680 --> 00:05:24.519
may as well write for myself now, So I do that. And then
69
00:05:24.800 --> 00:05:29.959
if you write, you have a
natural desire to communicate. And when I
70
00:05:30.000 --> 00:05:32.920
looked at ten years of MODI,
you know, and I asked myself,
71
00:05:32.920 --> 00:05:38.240
way we in twenty fourteen? Where
are we in twenty twenty four And then
72
00:05:38.439 --> 00:05:42.199
I looked around, saying somebody needs
to tell this story. And finally,
73
00:05:42.240 --> 00:05:45.800
after you know, looking around,
I decided, okay, I'm probably the
74
00:05:45.839 --> 00:05:48.199
best guy to do it. And
that's how we ended up here. I
75
00:05:48.240 --> 00:05:53.439
think, talking about the last decade, you've been Foreign minister for five years,
76
00:05:53.759 --> 00:05:58.160
foreign secretary for three before that,
it's ambassadors, then four years in
77
00:05:58.240 --> 00:06:02.439
China. In some sense, you've
been the transition figure from the previous decade.
78
00:06:02.959 --> 00:06:06.360
In your book, there is a
chapter on the decade of transformation?
79
00:06:08.319 --> 00:06:11.319
So how would you sum up that
transformation? And I think in many ways,
80
00:06:11.399 --> 00:06:15.360
what another saying the way the people
see and think about India has changed
81
00:06:15.279 --> 00:06:19.079
So what is it that you've done
that's made a difference. I mean,
82
00:06:19.120 --> 00:06:21.519
of course, I mean it's an
advertisement for yourself as well, but I
83
00:06:21.560 --> 00:06:27.319
think there is a real one.
So look, it's not just an advertisement
84
00:06:27.959 --> 00:06:33.240
for me, I think in many
ways, because I would say you are
85
00:06:33.279 --> 00:06:41.040
a kind of obviously part of the
ideas and conceptualization team. But if you
86
00:06:41.079 --> 00:06:44.439
are to have big change, you
need that vision. You know, you
87
00:06:44.600 --> 00:06:47.160
need that sense of I am here, I'm going to go there, I'm
88
00:06:47.199 --> 00:06:51.240
capable of it. I can convince
my people I can do this. And
89
00:06:51.399 --> 00:06:58.240
it's not just a you know,
a sort of a there is simple vision
90
00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:00.879
of I need to be big and
need to be it. I mean,
91
00:07:00.319 --> 00:07:04.439
it needs to be a vision which
would you know, say, Okay,
92
00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:09.319
my defense capabilities need to be here, my manufacturing needs to be there,
93
00:07:09.439 --> 00:07:13.360
my foreign trade needs to be here. I should prepare for the global workplace.
94
00:07:14.040 --> 00:07:16.639
I should be deep strengths I should
be. This should be my response
95
00:07:16.680 --> 00:07:20.439
to terrorism. That should be if
I'm challenged on the border, what I
96
00:07:20.480 --> 00:07:25.519
will do. So there's a whole
sort of I would say, almost a
97
00:07:25.639 --> 00:07:30.439
kind of a mindset out there.
So one part of it is that the
98
00:07:30.600 --> 00:07:35.439
second is the part we've already discussed, which is if we are you know,
99
00:07:35.480 --> 00:07:39.279
at the end of the day,
we are one point four billion people.
100
00:07:39.439 --> 00:07:43.519
Biggest resource is people, and we
are preparing for a globalized world.
101
00:07:43.560 --> 00:07:47.319
Why am I not leveraging people?
You know? Why is it that you
102
00:07:47.360 --> 00:07:53.120
know there are restrictions on mobility.
You know, we people say we must
103
00:07:53.160 --> 00:07:56.920
have access to capital, we must
have access to technology, to markets.
104
00:07:57.240 --> 00:08:01.600
They should have the mobility should be
part of the conna as well. And
105
00:08:01.639 --> 00:08:05.439
then finally there is this issue,
which is, you know, if you
106
00:08:05.480 --> 00:08:11.800
are, if you have aspirations,
what we will be will depend on what
107
00:08:11.920 --> 00:08:15.680
we are and what we were.
So there must be a sense of history.
108
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:18.000
There must be where am I coming
from? What am I about?
109
00:08:18.680 --> 00:08:24.120
You know? So it's it's in
a sense revisiting the past, redoing the
110
00:08:24.160 --> 00:08:28.319
present and preparing for the future.
And the way you do it, I
111
00:08:28.319 --> 00:08:31.680
think maybe that's one of the reasons
why you're such a rock star and this
112
00:08:31.800 --> 00:08:35.000
popularity. I'm not just saying it
to sort of praise you. I mean
113
00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:39.080
there is genuine kind of a rock
star kind of image that you that you
114
00:08:39.320 --> 00:08:43.639
that you have is when you talk
about Indian foreign policy, you do it
115
00:08:43.679 --> 00:08:46.840
in a way that people feel good
about India. But I think people should
116
00:08:46.840 --> 00:08:50.960
feel good of course, of course, of course I think that I think
117
00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:56.840
that happens well. Of course,
yes, think today, I mean today
118
00:08:56.919 --> 00:09:01.240
you had a testing of Ugly five. You know, it's a big step.
119
00:09:01.600 --> 00:09:03.919
I mean every day, I mean
I think two days ago you had
120
00:09:03.919 --> 00:09:09.480
this sela tunnel. You know,
every day something is happening in India.
121
00:09:09.639 --> 00:09:13.559
We used to think, you know, we'll have a project maybe five years,
122
00:09:13.600 --> 00:09:18.440
tenures. I mean many projects didn't
even get off ground today. Actually
123
00:09:18.960 --> 00:09:24.159
what was promised is happening in the
tenure, sometimes in the same tenure of
124
00:09:24.159 --> 00:09:26.960
the gun. So we have changed
and we should be proud of it.
125
00:09:28.080 --> 00:09:31.399
Yeah, said, because you had. If you look at the previous thirty
126
00:09:31.480 --> 00:09:35.559
years since Raji Gandhi passed away,
there's not a single government with a majority.
127
00:09:37.159 --> 00:09:41.000
So having a full majority leader who
has got control over his own party,
128
00:09:41.639 --> 00:09:46.600
how much difference is made to both
away the world seesons and the way
129
00:09:46.639 --> 00:09:50.919
we deal with the rest of the
look I Roger, I definitely, I
130
00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:56.440
mean no question majority in in a
democracy, that too in a big country.
131
00:09:56.759 --> 00:10:03.039
You know, a very pluralistic society
with all the diversity we have it
132
00:10:03.159 --> 00:10:05.639
is important at the end of the
day of you know, that whole churning
133
00:10:07.120 --> 00:10:11.919
which ends up in an election.
Producers are decisive outcome, no question about
134
00:10:11.960 --> 00:10:16.120
it. Because we have seen the
majority period and we have seen the coalition
135
00:10:16.240 --> 00:10:20.519
period, and I think nobody wishes
a coalition on this country ever. Again,
136
00:10:22.360 --> 00:10:24.720
I think where that's that's pretty even
though the big reforms happened during a
137
00:10:24.759 --> 00:10:30.799
coalition government, very weak coalition government. No. Look, I would say
138
00:10:30.879 --> 00:10:35.360
the big reforms actually have happened in
the majority government. Now what happened if
139
00:10:35.399 --> 00:10:39.120
you're referring to ninety one ninety twos. Ninety one ninety two was a reform
140
00:10:39.120 --> 00:10:43.519
which was done with our backs to
the wall. So we did the reforms
141
00:10:43.559 --> 00:10:46.840
we must. We didn't do the
reforms we should. I mean there were
142
00:10:46.919 --> 00:10:52.200
other things we should have done,
you know, by which time the consensus
143
00:10:52.200 --> 00:10:58.440
started praying, the appetite to go
further was not there. So I would
144
00:10:58.480 --> 00:11:03.960
say, yes, definitely, majority
government makes a difference. But I don't
145
00:11:05.000 --> 00:11:07.799
think it's as simple as that.
I really think it. You know,
146
00:11:09.039 --> 00:11:15.440
in a way, you need a
kind of a vision leadership which will motivate
147
00:11:15.480 --> 00:11:20.960
the country, which will get people
to do more than normally, you know,
148
00:11:20.000 --> 00:11:24.519
they would get out of their comfort
zone. People would be willing to
149
00:11:24.600 --> 00:11:30.360
take risks, experiment with things it
requires. You know. One of the
150
00:11:30.960 --> 00:11:33.639
good things about this government, the
big changes I've seen over the last ten
151
00:11:33.720 --> 00:11:39.679
years, is actually the follow up
that. Let me tell you, there's
152
00:11:39.799 --> 00:11:46.080
nothing more occurred in your career.
This I'm talking not of my ministerial tenure,
153
00:11:46.120 --> 00:11:50.679
my secretary tenure, to be put
in front of a whole lot of
154
00:11:50.720 --> 00:11:56.440
your peers and being hauled up by
the Prime Minister saying why didn't that get
155
00:11:56.480 --> 00:12:00.440
done and what is your explanation for
it? So what it does is the
156
00:12:00.559 --> 00:12:07.360
moment the top demands accountability and gets
after you saying, look, this was
157
00:12:07.399 --> 00:12:09.240
to be done. This is your
cost overrund, is your time over run?
158
00:12:09.879 --> 00:12:13.440
You said at the last meeting,
this would happen. The moment you
159
00:12:13.519 --> 00:12:16.799
start getting that kind of follow through. I mean, it's like a business
160
00:12:16.879 --> 00:12:24.279
principle that any organization, if the
leader is hands on, the leader is
161
00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:28.120
demanding, the leader pushes himself for
herself, let me tell you, it'll
162
00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:31.399
be a very different organization. And
that's actually what's happened to this country.
163
00:12:33.240 --> 00:12:35.960
From a foreign policy perspective. You
know, what is it for the third
164
00:12:37.039 --> 00:12:39.279
term, assuming you guys get a
third term. It looks like it's going
165
00:12:39.320 --> 00:12:43.440
to happen, Thank you very much. I didn't doubt it. What is
166
00:12:43.480 --> 00:12:46.960
it that you sort of what is
that big, bold kind of we keep
167
00:12:48.000 --> 00:12:50.000
hearing big bold news, you know, new thing from a foreign policy perspective,
168
00:12:50.039 --> 00:12:54.799
what is that sort of we should
be looking forward to or expecting?
169
00:12:56.120 --> 00:13:00.399
No all, look honest answer at
this time I can't say. I mean
170
00:13:00.440 --> 00:13:09.120
not because I'm being discreet, because
people are working on it. The idea
171
00:13:09.519 --> 00:13:11.720
really would be that, you know, ten years, we have come as
172
00:13:11.759 --> 00:13:16.559
far as we have, So what
is it we should be doing bigger,
173
00:13:16.720 --> 00:13:22.279
better, differently, innovatively. And
it's not just in fun policy. I
174
00:13:22.279 --> 00:13:28.639
think every minister, every ministry today
has that task. I would say we
175
00:13:28.679 --> 00:13:33.279
are well set up for it today. We are well set up for it
176
00:13:33.320 --> 00:13:39.240
today because if you look at the
big challenges and opportunities of the last let's
177
00:13:39.240 --> 00:13:43.320
say five years, I would even
say ten years, we have made the
178
00:13:43.360 --> 00:13:48.480
most of it. You know,
many other people had a chance to do
179
00:13:48.600 --> 00:13:52.759
G twenty. We just did it
better than everybody else. So we made
180
00:13:52.799 --> 00:14:00.120
an impression on the world. There
are you know countries who have today.
181
00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:03.639
You know, there is a there's
a big i would say, kind of
182
00:14:03.639 --> 00:14:09.000
a tech competition going on in the
world. We are actually today harnessing it
183
00:14:09.279 --> 00:14:11.519
and saying, Okay, this is
a country with an IT industry, but
184
00:14:11.600 --> 00:14:18.080
this country should have a semiconductor industry. We have an old, antiquated semiconductor
185
00:14:18.519 --> 00:14:24.320
uh you know facility in Chandigar which
is decades old, very small, but
186
00:14:24.720 --> 00:14:28.600
you know it doesn't we have a
country like India to have that kind of
187
00:14:28.679 --> 00:14:33.799
antiquated, small technology base. I
mean, so you need to build a
188
00:14:33.840 --> 00:14:39.440
fab in this country. You must
have your assembly testing plants. So if
189
00:14:39.480 --> 00:14:46.080
you take all the what will be
to me the new direction of technology and
190
00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:50.639
of power. You know this will
the balance of power today will be set
191
00:14:50.679 --> 00:14:54.240
in many ways by the balances of
technology. We are moving into a world
192
00:14:54.279 --> 00:14:58.960
of artificial intelligence. You know in
our lives, drones are going to be
193
00:14:58.000 --> 00:15:03.639
important. Space will be important.
So you know, how do you do
194
00:15:03.759 --> 00:15:07.320
all this? But you also have
to do the basics. You know,
195
00:15:07.480 --> 00:15:09.519
you have to build your roads better, you have to build your ailways.
196
00:15:11.279 --> 00:15:16.320
You know, you have to create
a good business environment, revive manufacturing in
197
00:15:16.360 --> 00:15:20.080
this country. You know, which
actually when we talk about reforms, I
198
00:15:20.120 --> 00:15:24.840
really think after the nineteen nineties somewhere
we let go off of that. So
199
00:15:26.200 --> 00:15:30.240
there's a lot to be done at
different levels. So I bring you to
200
00:15:30.279 --> 00:15:33.679
the politics of foreign policy, which
there's been lots of it yep in the
201
00:15:33.720 --> 00:15:37.159
country. I mean you no,
take you back to the twenty nineteen run
202
00:15:37.200 --> 00:15:43.840
not going a lecture that you gave
in which is you talked about the dogmas
203
00:15:43.840 --> 00:15:46.720
of daily See, normally we tend
to believe everything we did in the past
204
00:15:46.799 --> 00:15:50.559
was fantastic. In the informed policy
was always great, everything was great that
205
00:15:50.600 --> 00:15:54.720
happened in the past. To one
way, you actually said, no,
206
00:15:54.879 --> 00:15:58.399
we've got to take a critical look
at the past, re examine some of
207
00:15:58.399 --> 00:16:00.679
the things, the way we did
things. And you know book you talk
208
00:16:00.720 --> 00:16:04.720
about the three big foreign policy accounts. Have we dealt with Pakistan and Kaspied,
209
00:16:06.360 --> 00:16:08.600
are we dealt with China? How
we dealt with the US and the
210
00:16:08.639 --> 00:16:15.759
West? Are you making propositions there
which really challenge the entire conventional wisdom on
211
00:16:15.840 --> 00:16:19.600
Indian foreign policy and how we dealt
with that? But we just walk us
212
00:16:19.639 --> 00:16:26.799
through those three accounts. Inner way
between Book one and Book two, I
213
00:16:26.039 --> 00:16:33.440
sort of developed this argument in the
first book. What I found working in
214
00:16:33.480 --> 00:16:36.399
the Foreign ministry at that time out
chair I was kind of like an upper
215
00:16:36.440 --> 00:16:42.120
middle level guy, was Uh,
there was a kind of a mantra.
216
00:16:42.279 --> 00:16:48.080
There was a conventional belief in the
foreign policy system. But when we actually
217
00:16:48.120 --> 00:16:56.080
looked at public behavior, Uh,
it was very different. Uh and uh
218
00:16:56.159 --> 00:17:00.720
you had and and at that time
I used to deal with with us and
219
00:17:00.799 --> 00:17:07.279
actually I think it was if my
memory serves me, write Jaram Ramesha's book,
220
00:17:07.519 --> 00:17:11.640
which was Yankee, go home and
take me with you. So you
221
00:17:11.680 --> 00:17:15.920
know, people would abuse the US
and then want you to come and do
222
00:17:17.000 --> 00:17:22.960
something for them with the US.
So what we found even during the nuclear
223
00:17:22.039 --> 00:17:29.920
deal, you know that whole period
was you had a very strong ideological kind
224
00:17:29.920 --> 00:17:36.119
of prism coming from the ninth you
know this artist. I kind of dealt
225
00:17:36.119 --> 00:17:41.759
with it in my second book.
So if one actually looked at the real
226
00:17:41.839 --> 00:17:47.039
indices, Okay, where is your
trade growing, where is your technology coming
227
00:17:47.079 --> 00:17:52.680
from? Where are where is the
mobility migration happening? Where are people going
228
00:17:52.720 --> 00:17:56.920
for education, where are people going
for tourism? What kind of movies do
229
00:17:56.960 --> 00:18:00.839
you watch? The whole direction went
one way. The current policy was going
230
00:18:00.880 --> 00:18:07.000
a very different way. And so
my point in that first book was sometimes
231
00:18:07.039 --> 00:18:12.559
listen to the street, you know, get out of your own narrow circle
232
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:17.839
and ask, you know, real
people of the real economy, saying,
233
00:18:18.039 --> 00:18:19.680
so, what do you think about
the world. Where do you think our
234
00:18:19.759 --> 00:18:26.720
chances are? Where is the opportunity
there? And that I developed into something
235
00:18:27.000 --> 00:18:33.839
a little bit more wide ranging in
this book because what I discovered, as
236
00:18:33.880 --> 00:18:38.200
I you know, kept at my
job, was on very key issues.
237
00:18:40.720 --> 00:18:44.960
There were choices we made in the
nineteen fifties, sixties, seventies. We
238
00:18:45.119 --> 00:18:48.720
grew up believing and all of us, I mean I would include myself in
239
00:18:48.759 --> 00:18:52.759
it, but we grew up believing
these were the only choices, These were
240
00:18:52.799 --> 00:18:56.039
the best choices. And you know, if anything happened in the world,
241
00:18:56.039 --> 00:19:02.839
it was other people's fault, it
was never ours. And uh, when
242
00:19:02.880 --> 00:19:08.359
you actually started examining the record with
an open mind, you came up with
243
00:19:08.480 --> 00:19:12.000
something very different. And the three
examples are picked in the in the chapter
244
00:19:12.119 --> 00:19:18.400
called Roads Not Taken in my book. One was with regard and also in
245
00:19:18.440 --> 00:19:21.759
the China chapter. One was with
regard to child. I mean, if
246
00:19:21.799 --> 00:19:27.759
you if you look at China,
you know there was somehow this this belief.
247
00:19:27.799 --> 00:19:33.359
You know, everything was great till
the till virtually the war came and
248
00:19:33.400 --> 00:19:37.240
then you know it turns turned nasty
and the way were the word was betrayed
249
00:19:37.319 --> 00:19:45.720
by the Chinese. Now the reality
was almost from day one you had people
250
00:19:45.119 --> 00:19:49.400
and seeing. One of the dangers
is you look back on history and now
251
00:19:49.519 --> 00:19:53.599
you are smart because you have a
retrost. You know, you you know
252
00:19:53.680 --> 00:19:59.599
how histories played. But my interest
was at that time, what did people
253
00:19:59.640 --> 00:20:03.279
say. So if you're saying,
okay, China in nineteen fifty, you
254
00:20:03.519 --> 00:20:07.960
have the deputy Prime Minister of India
cautioning the Prime minister saying, look,
255
00:20:08.240 --> 00:20:12.519
for the first time we have a
two front situation. We have dangers coming
256
00:20:12.559 --> 00:20:18.000
out of China. And he's rushed
off saying, you know, in fact,
257
00:20:18.000 --> 00:20:22.680
I think the world is you know, we cannot imagine the Chinese undertaking
258
00:20:22.680 --> 00:20:26.720
a wild adventure across the Himalayas.
Excuse me, That's exactly what they did
259
00:20:26.720 --> 00:20:33.880
in nineteen sixty two. So now
I take a second example Pakistan. You
260
00:20:33.920 --> 00:20:37.880
know today by the way CAAA rules
were notified. Now, no, no,
261
00:20:38.759 --> 00:20:42.839
I'm reminding you for a reason,
because this debate goes back to the
262
00:20:42.920 --> 00:20:48.480
nineteen fifties that you have Shama Prasad
Mukerji warning you publicly. I mean,
263
00:20:48.519 --> 00:20:52.200
this is the reason why I find
it difficult to continue in the government.
264
00:20:52.759 --> 00:20:57.839
Saying you are dealing with a neighbor. You're reaching an understanding, saying I
265
00:20:57.880 --> 00:21:02.480
look after my minority, you look
after yours. Your neighbor has no intention
266
00:21:02.599 --> 00:21:07.319
of doing it. And anybody who
is sort of has a remote sense of
267
00:21:07.359 --> 00:21:11.279
objectivity about it can see it.
You know, that's the guy's DNA.
268
00:21:11.400 --> 00:21:15.480
That's what he's actually saying in public. You look at the flow of people
269
00:21:15.519 --> 00:21:18.640
coming out of Pakistan, and yet
you go and conclude a pact, you
270
00:21:18.680 --> 00:21:26.240
know, the Yakat Nehru Yakat plaque. So it's not like, you know,
271
00:21:26.559 --> 00:21:33.720
our relationship the whole the Pakistan account
going bad again was not a surprise.
272
00:21:33.880 --> 00:21:37.160
People told you in many cases saying
we were be careful, recognize what
273
00:21:37.279 --> 00:21:42.319
you're doing, or the US that
you know, our relations with the US
274
00:21:42.680 --> 00:21:48.319
have been very rocky, Okay,
no question about it. We frankly all
275
00:21:48.400 --> 00:21:52.079
grew up with the belief that US
had some kind of you know, from
276
00:21:52.119 --> 00:21:55.480
the very beginning, had something against
us. In fact, when you look
277
00:21:55.519 --> 00:22:02.079
at the record there's enormous you know, ideological prejudices on our site and within
278
00:22:02.440 --> 00:22:06.680
again the Indian political system. You
know, you have various ministers. I
279
00:22:06.720 --> 00:22:11.079
mean in this case doctor Rumbaker,
but you know drum Withdker is a very
280
00:22:11.160 --> 00:22:17.160
interesting person because of all the first
generation leaders, I think, I mean,
281
00:22:17.200 --> 00:22:18.400
there may be somebody else if I
may have missed out, but I
282
00:22:18.440 --> 00:22:23.920
think he was one of the fews
actually educated in America and with that experience.
283
00:22:25.240 --> 00:22:29.519
Drumbaker actually if you look at his
speech in Parliament at a time when
284
00:22:29.799 --> 00:22:33.039
he's resigning, he's talking about a
time when you know things he said,
285
00:22:33.400 --> 00:22:38.119
we started off there's no reason for
us not to you know, have good
286
00:22:38.160 --> 00:22:42.079
relations with America, but we have
ended up alienating them and you know the
287
00:22:42.119 --> 00:22:47.279
reason why we alienated them because by
the way we are taking up China's cause.
288
00:22:48.640 --> 00:22:55.119
So just imagine the reality was in
many cases you put China's interests ahead
289
00:22:55.119 --> 00:22:59.319
of India's interest I mean, today
we are talking India first. Apparently there
290
00:22:59.400 --> 00:23:02.680
was a period when it was China
first, which I can understand in China,
291
00:23:02.960 --> 00:23:11.440
not in India. So if you
actually you know, have irritate you
292
00:23:11.519 --> 00:23:15.599
know, I don't have a problem
dealing battling with others. You know,
293
00:23:15.720 --> 00:23:19.559
I do it even now sometimes,
But to do it, you must do
294
00:23:19.640 --> 00:23:22.799
it for your cause. You know, you don't do it for other people.
295
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:29.480
Go to an adversary. So would
you welcome it debate today? Like
296
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:33.240
just as made many mistakes that some
of the things you do today, we
297
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:40.440
also need a debate on what are
the likely consequences. You need someone asking
298
00:23:40.519 --> 00:23:45.000
deeper questions. That's what you guys
are doing now. But look, of
299
00:23:45.119 --> 00:23:49.759
course, you know I don't think
I mean not just important policy. I
300
00:23:49.839 --> 00:23:53.039
think it's in a democracy, you
know, governments should be questioned, there
301
00:23:53.039 --> 00:23:56.279
should be debates. There are debates. I mean in this country. This
302
00:23:56.400 --> 00:24:00.279
country would not be this country if
we didn't have debates. So I don't
303
00:24:00.319 --> 00:24:04.200
have an issue with that. What
I have an issue with is everything is
304
00:24:04.279 --> 00:24:08.920
okay if you question it. There's
a political legit, you know. I
305
00:24:10.000 --> 00:24:14.039
mean, I don't have to join
the BJP today to question what happened in
306
00:24:14.119 --> 00:24:19.640
the fifties and sixties and seventies.
Umbeitker patail Raja Ji Mino Massani, JB.
307
00:24:19.759 --> 00:24:23.880
Kriplani all questioned it at that time, and with the passage of history,
308
00:24:25.279 --> 00:24:29.920
many of their questions and answers prove
to be right, not all of
309
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:32.799
them. You know, again,
I want to be clear. I'm not
310
00:24:32.839 --> 00:24:34.680
saying everything done in the past was
wrong. I think many good things were
311
00:24:34.720 --> 00:24:41.160
done in the past. But we
shouldn't have this this very unquestioning acceptance of
312
00:24:41.319 --> 00:24:45.880
where we came from, because if
you then it will not enable us to
313
00:24:45.920 --> 00:24:48.920
correct the mistakes to looking at where
we are going. I mean, you
314
00:24:49.000 --> 00:24:53.839
have one nice sentence in a book
in terms of the major power relations.
315
00:24:55.200 --> 00:25:02.519
You talk about engaging America, managing
China as sure in Russia, cultivating Europe,
316
00:25:03.000 --> 00:25:04.880
and bring Japan in to play.
You know, expand on this.
317
00:25:06.079 --> 00:25:08.920
I mean, the each word you
choose for the country kind of lays out
318
00:25:10.559 --> 00:25:15.839
the kind of special priority how we
deal with each another. Yes, because
319
00:25:15.119 --> 00:25:23.240
I think in many ways with with
the US, the you know now,
320
00:25:23.799 --> 00:25:27.680
to use the Prime Minister's words,
we have put the hesitations of history,
321
00:25:27.759 --> 00:25:34.440
the ideological reservations behind us. I
think there's a world out there for us
322
00:25:34.519 --> 00:25:38.960
to explore. And you can see
that. You saw that when Prime Minister
323
00:25:40.119 --> 00:25:45.480
went last year on the state visit
to the us UH. And it is
324
00:25:45.640 --> 00:25:51.759
for us, I think a very
important trade partner investment partner. But most
325
00:25:51.799 --> 00:25:56.599
of all I would say technology,
you know. So, I mean that's
326
00:25:56.680 --> 00:26:02.920
why I use the word out there. I mean, I'll skip China,
327
00:26:03.000 --> 00:26:07.000
Russia for a moment, I'll come
back. I'll come back to them where
328
00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:11.440
Europe is concerned. Again, you
know, in many ways, I think
329
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:15.599
we were behind the curve. We
were behind the curve in the sense that
330
00:26:15.960 --> 00:26:22.000
we focused on a few countries in
Europe. The interface was relatively thin,
331
00:26:22.799 --> 00:26:30.000
and we didn't fully you know,
utilize or comprehend the integration of Europe and
332
00:26:30.039 --> 00:26:36.000
the importance of Brussels. One of
the big changes in our European policy in
333
00:26:36.039 --> 00:26:38.920
the last ten years is really how
much more time today we are spending in
334
00:26:40.039 --> 00:26:45.480
Brussels with Brussels. And again,
you know, Europe is going through its
335
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:51.119
own process of change, and definitely
there's no question, you know, as
336
00:26:51.200 --> 00:26:57.319
it becomes strategically more aware and awake, that it will be a big factor
337
00:26:59.039 --> 00:27:03.279
in its own right. If you
one looks at resources and again one looks
338
00:27:03.319 --> 00:27:08.440
at technology, one looks at the
partnership possibilities in Europe. And this is,
339
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:11.680
as I say, this is the
real world. This is where your
340
00:27:11.720 --> 00:27:15.440
technology is going, This is where
your trade is going. This is where
341
00:27:15.480 --> 00:27:18.920
your mobility is going. These are
the complementary partners of India. You know,
342
00:27:19.240 --> 00:27:25.160
this is for us a very very
good fit. Where Japan is concerned.
343
00:27:25.960 --> 00:27:29.119
A lot of it is within Japan
itself, in between Japan and the
344
00:27:29.160 --> 00:27:34.319
world, which is Japan for historical
reasons that constrained itself. So as and
345
00:27:34.440 --> 00:27:41.960
when Japan gets more deeply into world
politics. Japan is a great technology power.
346
00:27:41.359 --> 00:27:47.119
You know, Japan has abilities and
you know impact, and we have
347
00:27:47.200 --> 00:27:49.480
seen it in our own country.
I mean we saw it in the automobile
348
00:27:49.559 --> 00:27:55.440
sector, we saw it in the
mass transportation metro sector. When the bullet
349
00:27:55.559 --> 00:27:59.480
train happens, we are going to
see a big technology leap out there.
350
00:28:00.160 --> 00:28:04.079
So the problem with Japan is,
you know, it is hesitant because of
351
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:08.920
the past. There are a lot
of reactions to what Japan wants to do.
352
00:28:10.440 --> 00:28:12.480
We are very unique because we have
a very good history with Japan.
353
00:28:14.200 --> 00:28:18.000
So if anybody, you know,
if there's any big country which can actively
354
00:28:18.319 --> 00:28:22.200
encourage and welcome Japan to play a
bigger role, I think we have a
355
00:28:22.359 --> 00:28:30.519
very natural We are a very natural
choice. Then coming to Russia and China,
356
00:28:30.559 --> 00:28:34.559
I just respont interruptions of the three
places you've said, it's our relationship
357
00:28:34.599 --> 00:28:37.359
with these three parts of the world
are quite politics proof. No matter what
358
00:28:37.480 --> 00:28:41.319
happens in America, what happens in
European politics, whatever happens in Japanese politics,
359
00:28:41.720 --> 00:28:45.279
it's not really make too much of
a difference. You can't envision them
360
00:28:45.279 --> 00:28:51.599
making too much difference between India and
those countries. Yes, but there is
361
00:28:51.759 --> 00:28:55.640
still I would not say there's an
automatic city about it. You've got to
362
00:28:55.720 --> 00:29:00.079
work at it. You know,
it's not necessarily true that everybody would have
363
00:29:00.279 --> 00:29:04.880
that same commitment, same increase.
So you know, in in the in
364
00:29:06.519 --> 00:29:08.440
foreign policy, you can't take it
as a given. You know, even
365
00:29:08.519 --> 00:29:12.480
even good things need to be Every
garden needs to be tended, even a
366
00:29:12.599 --> 00:29:19.440
nice garden. You know. Uh
they they Russia bit see for us at
367
00:29:19.440 --> 00:29:22.920
the end of the day, most
of all, Russia's geopolitical. You know,
368
00:29:23.200 --> 00:29:26.039
it's a you look at the map
of the world, it stares you
369
00:29:26.160 --> 00:29:30.440
in the face. It's your neighbor's
neighbor. There's a you know, a
370
00:29:30.599 --> 00:29:37.359
continental balance, which is which is
built in the in the geography of of
371
00:29:37.680 --> 00:29:42.920
uh. Uh, the the situation
and the fact is all said and down.
372
00:29:44.440 --> 00:29:45.880
Uh. If you look at the
ups and downs. And that's why
373
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:49.880
I have in the second book,
I've spent some time explaining this about Russia
374
00:29:51.519 --> 00:29:56.720
that if you look at Russia's relationship
with almost every other major center Russia,
375
00:29:56.839 --> 00:30:00.400
Europe, Russia, US, Russia, Chi, now Russia, Japan,
376
00:30:00.720 --> 00:30:07.200
it's had tremendous substance. They're in
great periods, they're in very difficult periods.
377
00:30:07.960 --> 00:30:15.200
Ours has been from you know,
nineteen fifty five has actually been exceptionally
378
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:22.119
stipped, and which actually proves that
geopolitical logic is a very firm logic,
379
00:30:22.240 --> 00:30:26.200
shard at both ends. Now,
once you have a logic, the issue
380
00:30:26.240 --> 00:30:32.680
for US is how do you explore
the practical parts of it? Historically,
381
00:30:32.759 --> 00:30:36.319
well, not historically, but I
would say last fifty sixty years for US
382
00:30:36.400 --> 00:30:42.119
it's been largely what we call a
military technical collaboration. But if we look
383
00:30:42.240 --> 00:30:48.480
today at the changing demands of the
Indian economy and you look at the chain
384
00:30:48.640 --> 00:30:52.799
direction of Russia, Russia which is
turning away from the West, which is
385
00:30:52.839 --> 00:30:57.839
looking much more at Europe, then
as a ASHA, sorry, then I
386
00:30:57.920 --> 00:31:04.680
think you are find finding now a
new basis really to deepen that relationship.
387
00:31:04.920 --> 00:31:10.240
And that is actually what is happening, and it's important why I use the
388
00:31:10.279 --> 00:31:14.920
word reassure. The Russians have to
be reassured that what is happening for us
389
00:31:15.000 --> 00:31:19.359
with the other accounts is not at
their expense. So there is that part
390
00:31:21.039 --> 00:31:23.400
as well. But how do you
you know? Because Russia is the war
391
00:31:23.519 --> 00:31:27.559
with Europe, its war with the
best collective West. Word says, so
392
00:31:27.680 --> 00:31:33.279
how do you do both improve relations
with the West while also reassuring Russia because
393
00:31:33.519 --> 00:31:36.799
and then Russia has also become a
friend of China, which is open.
394
00:31:36.960 --> 00:31:40.079
But we're doing it, aren't we. You know, the proof of the
395
00:31:40.160 --> 00:31:45.119
pudding is actually in it being present
on the table. But if the next
396
00:31:45.160 --> 00:31:51.240
two years the conflict gets deeper in
Ukrainean, that is really what diplomacy and
397
00:31:52.039 --> 00:31:56.279
you know, fun policy is about. If if you're asking me, is
398
00:31:56.359 --> 00:32:00.839
that a challenge? Is that difficulties? Answer is yes. But because there
399
00:32:00.880 --> 00:32:02.160
are difficulties, I don't throw up
my hands and say, oh there's a
400
00:32:02.200 --> 00:32:07.279
big problem there, I can't do
anything about it. I think I would
401
00:32:07.400 --> 00:32:14.640
say today it is perfectly feasible for
a power like India two to have to
402
00:32:14.799 --> 00:32:24.599
work on on multiple vectors with different
nations, finding common common connects and creating
403
00:32:24.640 --> 00:32:29.640
an agenda and doing it in a
way. You know, there'd be things
404
00:32:29.720 --> 00:32:31.759
here I wouldn't do because it would
be going too far, or there are
405
00:32:31.759 --> 00:32:37.599
things there I wouldn't do because it
would have consequences. So there is a
406
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:43.599
I would say, a moderation,
a balance nuance out there with each relationship
407
00:32:43.960 --> 00:32:49.799
which makes it palatable for others.
So if you if you go whole hog
408
00:32:50.000 --> 00:32:52.680
iman pull speed on every one of
them, with NOE, with you know,
409
00:32:53.000 --> 00:32:59.759
no guard rails, or then yes, then managing multiple vectors becomes difficult.
410
00:33:00.200 --> 00:33:04.279
But if you do it with a
certain amount of deliberation and judgment,
411
00:33:05.119 --> 00:33:07.160
then I think it is it is
doable. And as I said, I
412
00:33:07.240 --> 00:33:13.319
mean we are actually demonstrating it in
real life. And that really leaves the
413
00:33:13.400 --> 00:33:16.960
last one, which is change to
the general good relationship. Yeah, you
414
00:33:17.039 --> 00:33:21.200
know for China, the real problem
is they are changing, We are changing.
415
00:33:21.279 --> 00:33:24.519
How do you find an equiliit?
So it's interestingly we are changing the
416
00:33:24.680 --> 00:33:28.920
fact that Russia politics doesn't really exist. I mean it's quite a stable political
417
00:33:29.000 --> 00:33:30.759
regime and even the elections now is
you know, we all know how that
418
00:33:30.880 --> 00:33:34.599
kind of end up at So does
that that helps us? I mean there's
419
00:33:34.599 --> 00:33:37.519
a pretty Russia in the relationship.
No, you know, look, I
420
00:33:37.880 --> 00:33:42.000
mean I won't go as far as
you do. I mean, you've had
421
00:33:42.160 --> 00:33:45.880
changes of regime in Russia aft Or
you had ninety one ninety two, you
422
00:33:46.039 --> 00:33:52.559
had a yel Sin period. So
before that you had even within the Soviet
423
00:33:52.599 --> 00:33:57.039
system of period. So it's not
every country has its politic. Yeah,
424
00:33:57.640 --> 00:34:00.799
but it'll never be a Maldives.
You're never going to have like warrying sort
425
00:34:00.839 --> 00:34:02.400
of two sides, you know,
trying to put you know what I mean,
426
00:34:02.480 --> 00:34:08.199
Like it's quite clear where unless climate
change becomes very extreme. I don't
427
00:34:08.199 --> 00:34:20.880
say that, but they look,
you know, I think in the Russian
428
00:34:21.440 --> 00:34:28.119
state craft sort of how would I
say heritage? You know, there is
429
00:34:28.280 --> 00:34:32.000
a kind of a sense of what
India is about and what are the benefits
430
00:34:32.039 --> 00:34:37.960
of a relationship with India, just
as it is in ours, and we
431
00:34:37.159 --> 00:34:40.719
have therefore made that effort. It's
not like we don't I mean, we
432
00:34:40.760 --> 00:34:44.920
don't agree on everything. There are
issues on which we have differences, but
433
00:34:45.039 --> 00:34:47.079
we have figured out how to deal
with it. Can you just share some
434
00:34:47.800 --> 00:34:53.519
anything you can tell us about Moody
and Putin's relationship because we keep hearing about
435
00:34:53.559 --> 00:34:59.519
it. There's something that looks very
special about their equation and there and the
436
00:34:59.599 --> 00:35:05.519
chemistry and the reports that you know, you contributed to things when things were
437
00:35:05.519 --> 00:35:15.280
going bad. Twenty two, well, you know what had what's a little
438
00:35:15.320 --> 00:35:22.800
bit different fare to us after the
first in twenty fourteen, President Putin came
439
00:35:22.840 --> 00:35:28.440
here. Okay, I was in
the US as ambassador twenty to fifteen.
440
00:35:30.400 --> 00:35:36.679
Modiji and Putin met in UFA in
summer of twenty fifty. After that,
441
00:35:37.320 --> 00:35:42.400
I think they decided that the relationship
in on the best way is actually to
442
00:35:43.039 --> 00:35:46.360
deal with each other directly rather than
what you normally see, you know,
443
00:35:46.519 --> 00:35:50.840
long table. I mean, we
also do that long table stuff, but
444
00:35:51.440 --> 00:35:57.840
they actually started spending a lot of
time directly talking one on one. So
445
00:35:58.119 --> 00:36:04.800
what has happened over a period of
time if two leaders have developed that that
446
00:36:05.599 --> 00:36:12.760
ability to continuously converse and interestingly,
you know, we we've also kept it
447
00:36:12.920 --> 00:36:17.559
up. It's one relationship where from
time to time that are teley conversations as
448
00:36:17.599 --> 00:36:25.199
well. So I would say the
personal connect there has definitely helped the relationship
449
00:36:25.239 --> 00:36:31.119
because sometimes in very tricky situations,
you know, you are able, You're
450
00:36:31.239 --> 00:36:35.239
able to get through, You're able
to talk you are able to make a
451
00:36:35.360 --> 00:36:38.760
point. And sometimes if you say
something the other person, because you know,
452
00:36:39.119 --> 00:36:43.079
if you and I get along,
we've known each other for some times,
453
00:36:43.119 --> 00:36:47.760
you're more more likely to listen on
what you said. Uh, vast
454
00:36:47.880 --> 00:36:52.239
raj. Look, since the Ukraine
conflict began, at various points of time,
455
00:36:53.559 --> 00:37:00.239
different countries or different actors or different
organizations have asked us to pitch in
456
00:37:00.400 --> 00:37:05.239
with something. You know, Uh, some of it we have made public.
457
00:37:05.360 --> 00:37:07.280
Some of it we have not.
Uh. You know, I've spoken,
458
00:37:07.360 --> 00:37:12.360
for example, about the Black Sea
grain corridor or about when the nuclear
459
00:37:12.519 --> 00:37:17.880
Japrouget nuclear power plant was under attack. So there have been issues at this
460
00:37:19.119 --> 00:37:23.960
time our effort because you know,
we we really I mean for us,
461
00:37:24.559 --> 00:37:30.440
Uh, this this conflict is not
I mean is not representative of this era.
462
00:37:30.679 --> 00:37:34.719
I mean this, this is for
us, something with which you know
463
00:37:35.519 --> 00:37:43.440
we have a profound disagreement. So
uh, the uh, the best thing
464
00:37:43.519 --> 00:37:46.760
we can do at this time is
at least, since you can't sort out
465
00:37:46.840 --> 00:37:53.000
the entirety of it, at least
at this point, to take different aspects
466
00:37:53.039 --> 00:37:57.639
of it and if you can be
useful, helpful, contributive, that's what
467
00:37:57.800 --> 00:38:01.280
we've been trying to coming back to
China. See really the one exception to
468
00:38:01.440 --> 00:38:06.320
the general direction of our foreign policy. There's a lot in your book on
469
00:38:07.000 --> 00:38:12.119
China. But so now in your
third term, is there a chance to
470
00:38:12.679 --> 00:38:16.360
the moment to rethink whether they're rethinking, whether your rethinking, Because it's really
471
00:38:16.440 --> 00:38:21.960
quite odd to have this kind of
relationship between two large countries. Yes,
472
00:38:22.039 --> 00:38:24.039
it is odd, but it's also
odd to move large number of troops to
473
00:38:24.159 --> 00:38:28.320
the border of another country when you
have an agreement which is you're not supposed
474
00:38:28.360 --> 00:38:34.480
to do it. So I mean, we are today counter deployed against Chinese
475
00:38:34.559 --> 00:38:40.280
diploma and to me, that's the
right answer. But after you counter deploy,
476
00:38:40.440 --> 00:38:45.719
it's also natural that there would be
a diplomacy which kicks in. And
477
00:38:46.719 --> 00:38:52.079
that has been going on for almost
four years now. Uh and uh.
478
00:38:52.880 --> 00:38:57.440
It's had mixed results. In some
areas we have progressed, in some areas
479
00:38:57.519 --> 00:39:01.960
we have not. It is still
and of open out there. But I
480
00:39:02.039 --> 00:39:07.239
would only say, I mean it
is also for the Chinese side to make
481
00:39:07.280 --> 00:39:10.599
an assessment whether the current situation serves
their interest or not. And if they
482
00:39:10.920 --> 00:39:16.760
genuinely believe that the state of relations
doesn't serve their interest, then presumably we
483
00:39:16.880 --> 00:39:22.519
will get much more, you know, outcome oriented about the discussions which are
484
00:39:23.320 --> 00:39:27.679
underway, because you know, it's
a very simple proposition. I mean,
485
00:39:28.239 --> 00:39:30.000
it would apply to any of us, not just as a country, even
486
00:39:30.599 --> 00:39:37.360
as a person that if somebody is, you know, at your boundary wall,
487
00:39:37.719 --> 00:39:40.840
you're not going to pretend as though
everything is okay. One question I
488
00:39:40.920 --> 00:39:45.840
wanted on the democracy question. I
mean, there's a bit in your book
489
00:39:45.880 --> 00:39:50.199
when India and Us had nothing to
do with each other, we kind of
490
00:39:50.280 --> 00:39:53.960
kept talking about how great democracies we
are today when we're very good friends.
491
00:39:54.880 --> 00:40:00.519
The argument about India's democratic backs writing
goes and then you explain in your book
492
00:40:00.360 --> 00:40:07.719
what are the issues why the liberals
in the West of a problem how they
493
00:40:07.800 --> 00:40:10.000
look at a changing India. Then
you expland on that, I mean that
494
00:40:10.400 --> 00:40:15.079
how do we deal with this situation? Are we losing too many liberal friends?
495
00:40:15.000 --> 00:40:20.000
Is there a misperception that can be
overcome? You know, I think
496
00:40:21.000 --> 00:40:27.679
to put it simply, the left
liberals at a world level would like to
497
00:40:27.800 --> 00:40:36.559
see some kind of their version in
India, okay, and are profoundly disturbed
498
00:40:37.119 --> 00:40:43.360
if the Indian electorate believes otherwise.
So their problem, if you ask me,
499
00:40:43.480 --> 00:40:45.960
their problem is not the democracy in
India. Their problem is what the
500
00:40:46.039 --> 00:40:51.280
democracy of India has thrown up.
The results of the democracy of India is
501
00:40:51.320 --> 00:40:55.320
what they don't like, you know. So you see suddenly the ratcheting up
502
00:40:55.360 --> 00:41:00.440
of this complaint. It starts after
twenty to forty, then it increased after
503
00:41:00.519 --> 00:41:06.840
twenty nineteen, because again the Indian
people decided in a way in which you
504
00:41:06.960 --> 00:41:12.800
can say the globalist liberals wanted something
else. So we are in a world
505
00:41:12.880 --> 00:41:17.119
today where politics, it's not just
economics, is globalized. Politics is also
506
00:41:17.199 --> 00:41:25.960
globalized. So people here openly solicit
support from outside, people outside openly give
507
00:41:27.039 --> 00:41:31.639
support out here. So there is
a game going on and I think we
508
00:41:31.800 --> 00:41:35.960
need to see it, we need
to recognize it. And a lot of
509
00:41:36.039 --> 00:41:38.320
it is other. You know,
a lot of other countries, by the
510
00:41:38.360 --> 00:41:43.239
way, have many of the ills
of our system. I mean, don't
511
00:41:43.280 --> 00:41:45.840
believe vote banks are an Indian problem. Vote banks are a global procourse.
512
00:41:46.400 --> 00:41:52.400
A lot of the criticism we get
our vote bank criticisms, so if you
513
00:41:52.880 --> 00:41:55.599
look at it, you know,
to me, vote bank appeasement, these
514
00:41:55.639 --> 00:42:00.960
are global phenomena. So let's be
clear about it. And I think we
515
00:42:00.039 --> 00:42:04.719
should not hesitate to call it out
No, one of the sort of one
516
00:42:04.760 --> 00:42:12.239
of the justifications for sort of a
slight movement towards a more illiberal society really
517
00:42:12.320 --> 00:42:15.000
comes from a foreign policy angle.
Right do you say that Inda has been
518
00:42:15.000 --> 00:42:17.239
invaded for so many years, so
many times you can look at our neighborhood.
519
00:42:17.280 --> 00:42:21.440
That's difficult. No, it's all
correct, you know, and the
520
00:42:21.440 --> 00:42:27.280
neighborhood is so challenging, you know, sort of all kinds of tensions on
521
00:42:27.320 --> 00:42:32.719
the border. We still have undresolved
border disputes. Is that a justification you
522
00:42:32.800 --> 00:42:38.159
think, or does that? Does
that? Does liberalism with this set up
523
00:42:38.280 --> 00:42:42.519
make your job harder? No?
No, no, no, hang on,
524
00:42:42.599 --> 00:42:45.679
hang on a minute. Nobody is
suggesting because we have problems on the
525
00:42:45.719 --> 00:42:52.239
border, that there is any implication
of that for our democracy. I mean,
526
00:42:52.320 --> 00:42:55.079
I don't see that connection at all. We are perfectly capable as a
527
00:42:55.159 --> 00:43:00.719
democracy of defending ourselves, of doing
whatever we have to do, whether it's
528
00:43:00.800 --> 00:43:06.599
the Pakistan border or whether it is
a China. But my point is,
529
00:43:07.039 --> 00:43:09.000
so democracy doesn't come in the way
of your operation. No, no,
530
00:43:09.079 --> 00:43:12.760
not at all. On the countrary, I think democracy gives me strength,
531
00:43:13.599 --> 00:43:17.039
that we have debates, we make
up our mind, we create a national
532
00:43:17.159 --> 00:43:23.400
position out there. So you know, in this country, nobody should doubt
533
00:43:24.400 --> 00:43:30.079
our you know why, the virtues
of democracy because demo it is actually today.
534
00:43:30.119 --> 00:43:36.719
If I were to say, if
you give me two three descriptions of
535
00:43:36.760 --> 00:43:39.039
the last ten years, one of
them outside the democracy that delivers, we
536
00:43:39.159 --> 00:43:43.880
have shown in the last ten years
that this idea that you need to be
537
00:43:44.000 --> 00:43:47.880
an autocracy in order to do efficient
things, a democracy is perfectly capable of
538
00:43:47.960 --> 00:43:53.920
doing it if it is led by
the right people. So it's a great
539
00:43:54.039 --> 00:43:58.880
churn of the last twenty years growth
which is not fully understood by outsiders.
540
00:43:59.519 --> 00:44:05.039
No, it is that you know
what has happened in this country. Nobody
541
00:44:05.159 --> 00:44:12.599
look, let's look at India today. If you look today at say the
542
00:44:13.760 --> 00:44:16.480
parliament, okay, I give that, or look at the corporate sector,
543
00:44:16.559 --> 00:44:22.880
look at any workplace, nobody would
doubt we are more representative than we've ever
544
00:44:22.000 --> 00:44:27.239
been before, at least in living
history. Okay. Many more people from
545
00:44:27.360 --> 00:44:32.320
humbler background, smaller towns, self
made people have come up in our country.
546
00:44:32.960 --> 00:44:37.880
Now they have brought with them what
is authentic India. You know,
547
00:44:38.000 --> 00:44:43.880
they have brought their heritage, their
beliefs, their traditions. They do not
548
00:44:44.079 --> 00:44:50.199
believe that something which one generation of
people picked up in Cambridge should become their
549
00:44:50.280 --> 00:44:53.960
ideology and their guiding beliefs. You
know, they also believe that what they
550
00:44:54.760 --> 00:45:00.679
picked up in Nashik, or in
Coimbato, or in the Burugad or in
551
00:45:00.840 --> 00:45:06.559
Jalandar is equally valid. So there
is today, in a sense, an
552
00:45:06.679 --> 00:45:09.119
old order new order, which is, I would argue, is because democracy
553
00:45:09.199 --> 00:45:15.119
is deepened in this country and a
lot of people abroad don't like it because
554
00:45:15.559 --> 00:45:19.159
they want you to be, as
I said, a poor cousin of themselves.
555
00:45:19.880 --> 00:45:22.360
You know, they want you to
be something like them so that they
556
00:45:22.400 --> 00:45:28.519
are continually in a position to dominate. They don't like the pushback. And
557
00:45:28.639 --> 00:45:30.840
you said this in the book,
and I can just kind of you know,
558
00:45:30.960 --> 00:45:34.440
you said that there are a lot
of people abroad who don't want India
559
00:45:34.480 --> 00:45:37.760
to be strong. That's also true. I mean who doesn' want in there
560
00:45:37.800 --> 00:45:39.519
to be strong? I mean who
like? Is it? Is? It?
561
00:45:39.639 --> 00:45:45.440
Is it? China? Is it? I think I think that that
562
00:45:45.599 --> 00:45:51.119
much you should be able to figure
out. But it's it's both the friends
563
00:45:51.119 --> 00:45:53.239
and enemies. I mean, you're
henting at both of them. Look,
564
00:45:53.440 --> 00:46:00.239
life is competitive, okay to some
degree, all of us compete with each
565
00:46:00.280 --> 00:46:04.400
other, but what happens in development, in foreign policies. Even with people
566
00:46:04.480 --> 00:46:07.880
you compete, you find common interest. I think there are many friends in
567
00:46:07.920 --> 00:46:09.800
the world who would wish us well, who want us to become stronger.
568
00:46:10.079 --> 00:46:13.400
So don't get me wrong, I'm
not saying the world is that. I'm
569
00:46:13.440 --> 00:46:15.679
not paranoid. In fact, I'm
very optimist. I would say a very
570
00:46:15.760 --> 00:46:21.519
large part of the world wishes us
well because from you know, much of
571
00:46:21.559 --> 00:46:24.599
the global South, for example,
they see in us a kind of a
572
00:46:24.719 --> 00:46:31.320
motivation. They see in us a
vindication of a kind. So when something
573
00:46:31.440 --> 00:46:35.960
good happens in India, I can
genuinely see, you know, other parts
574
00:46:35.960 --> 00:46:42.280
of the world people welcome it.
And whereas there would also be other powers
575
00:46:42.599 --> 00:46:45.519
with whom there would be an interest, and they for them are stronger.
576
00:46:45.599 --> 00:46:52.119
India is part of a global balance
or a you know, a global order
577
00:46:52.320 --> 00:46:57.440
or a global partnership. So it's
not like everybody is out to get us
578
00:46:57.639 --> 00:47:00.679
or to slow us down. There
would be some, there would not be
579
00:47:00.840 --> 00:47:04.480
some. There would be some who
would be partly there, who would help
580
00:47:04.599 --> 00:47:07.239
us in some areas but not in
some areas. It's very granular it's very
581
00:47:07.440 --> 00:47:10.400
very one question. You know,
one of the things you talk about in
582
00:47:10.480 --> 00:47:16.360
your book is really the how India's
attitude to globalization changed fundamentally in some ways
583
00:47:16.800 --> 00:47:22.360
simultaneously as the US changed its attitude. So the rearranging. We walked out
584
00:47:22.400 --> 00:47:27.760
of our set the Asia wide Freetai
agreement in now we signing agreements with other
585
00:47:27.800 --> 00:47:30.320
countries, including with Europe the last
couple of days. So how do you
586
00:47:30.400 --> 00:47:35.960
see this process of rearranging. You
know, we all believed in ninety one
587
00:47:36.199 --> 00:47:39.400
there's only one model of growth.
Now you're saying there is a different way
588
00:47:39.440 --> 00:47:45.679
of doing globalization. We call it
reglobalization deglobalization. Well, I think what
589
00:47:45.000 --> 00:47:53.039
happened from the nineteen nineties onwards was
that in the name of globalization, production
590
00:47:53.960 --> 00:48:02.639
and thereafter technology started moving in a
certain direction, resulting in an enormous concentration
591
00:48:04.440 --> 00:48:10.679
out there. Okay, countries,
elites, business people, strategic people knowingly
592
00:48:10.840 --> 00:48:16.159
did this. Okay, they did
it, maybe out of miscalculation, they
593
00:48:16.199 --> 00:48:22.360
may have done it out of benefit, whatever the issue. But the fact
594
00:48:22.639 --> 00:48:29.000
was, after thirty years of this
model of globalization, we ended up in
595
00:48:29.079 --> 00:48:31.320
a situation where a large part of
the world, not just India. In
596
00:48:31.360 --> 00:48:36.000
fact, many countries much more than
us, A large part of the world
597
00:48:36.159 --> 00:48:40.480
became dependent on a single geography.
Okay, now there were two kinds of
598
00:48:40.639 --> 00:48:46.480
risks which emanate from it. Risk
number one is if something happened, and
599
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:52.639
COVID showed something could happen. If
something happened and you're dependent on a single
600
00:48:52.199 --> 00:48:55.719
source of production, there's an enormous
risk. None of you would do it
601
00:48:55.760 --> 00:49:00.239
as a business decision. You know, you won't print entire Indian Express in
602
00:49:00.320 --> 00:49:07.480
one single printing press. So the
first point is this over concentration and the
603
00:49:07.559 --> 00:49:13.199
dependence on it. The second is
what happens when the concentrator now leverages it.
604
00:49:13.719 --> 00:49:19.639
You if your whole if your entire
newspaper is printed in a single press,
605
00:49:19.719 --> 00:49:22.000
and the press people now decide to
get difficult with you. I mean,
606
00:49:22.039 --> 00:49:27.440
I know they won't with you,
but the point is now they leverage
607
00:49:27.960 --> 00:49:32.000
so you know, as a consumer, as a purchaser, as a resource
608
00:49:32.079 --> 00:49:39.599
provider, as a technology provider.
So this puts the entire world actually under
609
00:49:39.639 --> 00:49:45.199
stress. And this was brought home
to us very very graphically during COVID,
610
00:49:45.880 --> 00:49:50.159
and as we move today into the
age of AI, as we move into
611
00:49:50.199 --> 00:49:57.079
a digital existence. It raises other
issues. You we we have enormously complicated
612
00:49:57.599 --> 00:50:01.079
lass debates in every one of our
societies about our data. Okay, so
613
00:50:01.519 --> 00:50:06.480
we have discussions in our parliament like
the Europeans have in theirs, or maybe
614
00:50:06.559 --> 00:50:08.719
you know the Americans have their.
And yet you are willing to send your
615
00:50:08.840 --> 00:50:14.719
data out somewhere where actually there is
none of the firewalls which you expect in
616
00:50:14.800 --> 00:50:20.920
India would be there. So the
digital domain has also today raised fundamental question
617
00:50:21.079 --> 00:50:25.039
marks whether actually all countries are the
same, whether everything should be moving around,
618
00:50:25.119 --> 00:50:30.199
whether this is a happy way of
living. And then there's a fourth
619
00:50:30.239 --> 00:50:34.719
aspect. When everything becomes concentrated somewhere, other people start to lose their jobs.
620
00:50:35.440 --> 00:50:37.639
You know, we have seen in
this country what has been the damaging
621
00:50:37.719 --> 00:50:43.920
impact on small and medium enterprises by
dumping of goods. You know, a
622
00:50:44.039 --> 00:50:52.360
small manufacturer in India cannot fight a
massive state on subsidized production and there is
623
00:50:52.559 --> 00:50:55.280
enormous I mean, I want to
say this to you because I deal a
624
00:50:55.400 --> 00:51:00.039
lot with small industry. I even
lived for a large part of my life
625
00:51:00.199 --> 00:51:04.360
in a you know, in an
estate in Noida. You know, you
626
00:51:04.519 --> 00:51:07.119
have to hear the sentiments of those
people out there. So when you heard
627
00:51:07.199 --> 00:51:10.639
this globalization mantra, Oh, it's
great for our growth, et cetera.
628
00:51:12.039 --> 00:51:15.880
Yes, it may be great for
those people whose livelihoods are not at stake.
629
00:51:15.960 --> 00:51:20.480
So it may be great economic theory. Let me tell you right at
630
00:51:20.519 --> 00:51:24.079
the grassroots, there are large number
of people in every country who are hurting
631
00:51:24.280 --> 00:51:30.440
because of the way goods are being
dumped on us, who find it difficult
632
00:51:30.519 --> 00:51:35.079
to compete, who do not know
what to do when non market economy actually
633
00:51:35.199 --> 00:51:39.159
uses a market a WT your market
system. One question. I think there's
634
00:51:39.159 --> 00:51:44.280
a lot of very quick questions,
but I wanted one big change in the
635
00:51:44.400 --> 00:51:49.800
last decade is the role of the
private sector, both within the country where
636
00:51:49.960 --> 00:51:53.320
you've brought you not Today private sector
is into the defense, into space,
637
00:51:53.960 --> 00:51:59.400
there's some privatization that is taking place. Historically, we've tended to suppress the
638
00:51:59.480 --> 00:52:02.280
role of the private set in the
conduct of policy within, not only in
639
00:52:02.360 --> 00:52:06.800
our own economy. Today you see
if you want to do projects outside,
640
00:52:07.079 --> 00:52:12.760
the need to have the private sector
empowered to be able to do projects outside.
641
00:52:13.000 --> 00:52:15.639
How serious are you going to see
more of that in the second term,
642
00:52:15.119 --> 00:52:20.480
third term? You know? Look, I spoke about when I was
643
00:52:20.559 --> 00:52:24.039
talking about the key relationships, the
US relationship, and spoke about the ideological
644
00:52:24.119 --> 00:52:29.679
prism. I think it was that
very same prism which actually led to license
645
00:52:29.800 --> 00:52:32.960
rights wich led to the constraints on
business UH in this country, and which
646
00:52:34.320 --> 00:52:39.599
stifled innovation. I mean, we
were just talking to a major entrepreneur in
647
00:52:39.679 --> 00:52:45.760
this country who you know, when
he was questioned about research. Why don't
648
00:52:45.000 --> 00:52:49.239
why doesn't business invest in research?
We said, well, first, you
649
00:52:49.320 --> 00:52:52.519
guys put us in a box where
we're not allowed to produce beyond a point,
650
00:52:52.559 --> 00:52:54.559
and we sell everything we produced.
Now what if you sold everything you
651
00:52:54.679 --> 00:52:59.079
produced, why would you do research? Because you have no reason to.
652
00:53:00.199 --> 00:53:05.400
So today I think we freed ourselves
up from a lot kind of baggage.
653
00:53:05.920 --> 00:53:10.800
Now in UH, if you want
you know innovation you want you are looking
654
00:53:12.639 --> 00:53:16.960
today at a kind of a leap
frog. Really, because this country cannot
655
00:53:17.079 --> 00:53:22.000
grow. Others grow before us.
We have today to latch onto those big
656
00:53:22.079 --> 00:53:27.519
opportunities. You know, so a
semiconductor, renewable, green tech, clea
657
00:53:27.639 --> 00:53:31.320
tech, you know, bronze space. These are are all great opportunities out
658
00:53:31.320 --> 00:53:39.000
of their way because it's a relatively
you know, it's a the supply chains
659
00:53:39.000 --> 00:53:46.679
are not fully set you know today
for new players, UH and UH encourage
660
00:53:46.719 --> 00:53:52.199
that. We encourage it at home
through startup and you know, by skills.
661
00:53:52.239 --> 00:53:55.920
First of all, I startup by
innovation, by supporting a lot of
662
00:53:57.039 --> 00:54:00.079
this making it easier to do business, but also make it easier to innavat
663
00:54:00.280 --> 00:54:05.599
But abroad, you know, part
of what in fact and AMA we do
664
00:54:06.159 --> 00:54:10.320
is we actually give lines of credit
for projects abroad which are executed by Indian
665
00:54:10.400 --> 00:54:16.480
companies with a very high and in
many cases we've seen a company which goes
666
00:54:16.559 --> 00:54:22.119
in does one good project, has
now established itself, it has got market
667
00:54:22.239 --> 00:54:24.519
access, it's got branding in that
country. Now they're ready to go out
668
00:54:24.559 --> 00:54:31.360
there. So we are today in
different ways directly indirectly promoting this because at
669
00:54:31.360 --> 00:54:35.320
the end of the day, this
means more employment for us. Just to
670
00:54:35.360 --> 00:54:37.039
be said, the word's good for
general motors, it's good for the US.
671
00:54:37.760 --> 00:54:43.480
Is there the Indian capital are you
really you know not one is MSM
672
00:54:43.559 --> 00:54:47.199
small loss, but in terms of
the big projects empowering Indian capital really to
673
00:54:47.280 --> 00:54:52.440
go out and do things well,
yes, but I think you know,
674
00:54:52.559 --> 00:54:58.000
we have a much more diversified sort
of economic landscape. You know, our
675
00:54:58.079 --> 00:55:04.000
companies are not that level, but
definitely, I mean we would you know,
676
00:55:04.119 --> 00:55:09.320
we had a very interesting example just
recently when Prime Minister went to Uah,
677
00:55:10.199 --> 00:55:19.320
my colleague Pushkul actually negotiated something called
Baratmat with Deeply World. Deep World
678
00:55:19.519 --> 00:55:25.400
today provides a platform in Dubai for
small Indian businesses to display their wares so
679
00:55:25.559 --> 00:55:31.679
that people from across Africa or the
Arab world can come and make their decisions.
680
00:55:31.920 --> 00:55:36.079
So we do a lot. You
know, there's a lot of innovative
681
00:55:36.159 --> 00:55:38.239
stuff which is happening. It could
be big companies, it could be smaller
682
00:55:38.320 --> 00:55:45.599
people. It's trade, it's of
its technology collaborations. But in you know,
683
00:55:46.159 --> 00:55:51.280
I would also say Indian businesses are
responding. I mean there are places
684
00:55:51.800 --> 00:55:54.480
you know I went last year,
or our trade with Latin America today's forty
685
00:55:54.519 --> 00:56:00.320
five billion dollars. There are places
where Indian businesses are there and no Indian
686
00:56:00.639 --> 00:56:05.119
foreign minister has ever gone there before. It tells you a lot there is.
687
00:56:05.960 --> 00:56:09.639
You know, America has been incredible
asient for their businesses. I mean,
688
00:56:09.679 --> 00:56:13.360
do you see that kind of intimacy
happening with India? Also that when
689
00:56:13.360 --> 00:56:15.639
you actually you know, I mean
as you know, Boeing or Google and
690
00:56:15.719 --> 00:56:21.840
these companies. You know, it
becomes part of the American sort of you
691
00:56:21.920 --> 00:56:24.880
know, I think India will be
India. I mean we you know,
692
00:56:25.000 --> 00:56:30.480
we have a certain culture, we
have a certain you know, our sense
693
00:56:30.559 --> 00:56:34.679
of propriety, et cetera. But
I would say we will be you know,
694
00:56:34.800 --> 00:56:37.639
to me, I'm not I'm not
actually supportive of business per se.
695
00:56:37.960 --> 00:56:43.840
I'm supportive of my employment. You
know, our business is only the way
696
00:56:43.960 --> 00:56:49.760
by which I get that employment.
I get that GDP increase. We spoke
697
00:56:49.760 --> 00:56:52.480
a lot about the big countries and
the big power centers of the world,
698
00:56:52.559 --> 00:56:57.280
but there's a quick one. In
the neighborhood. It's not been as rosy
699
00:56:57.360 --> 00:57:00.920
as you as the rest of the
world has been. You accept that,
700
00:57:01.119 --> 00:57:06.719
uh, you know, for for
no country is the neighborhood ever rosy.
701
00:57:07.039 --> 00:57:14.360
You know, it's it's it's the
nature of the neighborhood. Ask even so.
702
00:57:14.960 --> 00:57:22.079
But but you try. You you
have to accept the the ups and
703
00:57:22.280 --> 00:57:27.519
downs, the politics of the neighborhood, the uh, sometimes the psychology of
704
00:57:27.599 --> 00:57:31.800
the neighborhood. And in our case, what had happened was, you know,
705
00:57:31.920 --> 00:57:37.840
post partition. You you actually have
this big country in the center and
706
00:57:37.239 --> 00:57:42.920
a number of smaller countries. So
what we have tried to do in the
707
00:57:43.000 --> 00:57:46.360
last decade is to recognize that as
a fact, not fight it. You
708
00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:51.159
know, not tell neighbors I will
only do this much because you haven't done
709
00:57:51.199 --> 00:57:57.119
that much. So we consciously said, look, uh, irrespective of their
710
00:57:57.239 --> 00:58:01.360
capability, their willingness, their decision, let's make up our mind what is
711
00:58:01.440 --> 00:58:07.519
good for the relationship. So if
you look at the last decade, I
712
00:58:07.599 --> 00:58:17.079
would actually point to a very fundamental
transformation on the ground. Very obvious examples
713
00:58:17.159 --> 00:58:23.480
today would be say patrol fuel pipelines
which go to Bangladesh and Nepal, where
714
00:58:23.880 --> 00:58:30.320
countries which choose to get their fuel
by trucks or by shipping today have a
715
00:58:30.440 --> 00:58:35.519
short fuel from India at a time
and energy security is a very big concern
716
00:58:35.599 --> 00:58:39.599
for people. Or the fact today
we are seeing much more transnational power grids
717
00:58:40.199 --> 00:58:44.519
that we supply power to Nepal,
we import from Nepal, we supply to
718
00:58:44.559 --> 00:58:47.519
Bangladesh, we supplied to Myanmar.
We are talking today of a grid across
719
00:58:47.559 --> 00:58:51.679
the sea with Sri Laka. Okay, we do with Bhutan as well.
720
00:58:52.960 --> 00:58:55.519
You can see it in rail you
know, you can see railway lines today
721
00:58:55.559 --> 00:59:00.800
to many of our neighbors, Nepal, certainly Banglades We are actively looking at
722
00:59:00.840 --> 00:59:06.559
a rail line today to Bhutan.
You can you can see it in roads,
723
00:59:06.639 --> 00:59:10.400
you can see it in the actual
business and traffic between us and when
724
00:59:10.559 --> 00:59:15.719
crunch time comes, because that's really
in many ways the test during COVID.
725
00:59:16.639 --> 00:59:20.800
You know, we were the source
of vaccine to many of them. A
726
00:59:20.880 --> 00:59:24.880
lot of them had issues like fertilizer
shortages during the Ukraine when the Co Ukraine
727
00:59:24.920 --> 00:59:30.159
conflict started, And most of all, the neighborhood has registered that while you
728
00:59:30.239 --> 00:59:36.719
know, the rest of the world
was you know, watching cautiously and the
729
00:59:36.800 --> 00:59:40.719
IMF was moving at its own pace
as Sri Lanka was plummeting, it was
730
00:59:40.800 --> 00:59:45.559
actually India which came to her.
So I think that message is registered loud
731
00:59:45.599 --> 00:59:51.960
and clear in the neighborhood. The
border issues, you know, we hear
732
00:59:52.079 --> 00:59:55.159
that there were options, there were
offers made in the past from China side
733
00:59:55.280 --> 00:59:59.239
to resolve in the past. I
think one more sings time than wash based
734
00:59:59.239 --> 01:00:02.840
time. Is there any scenario where
you think third term, fourth them,
735
01:00:02.880 --> 01:00:06.840
whatever, But is any scenario you
think that this can actually be resolved?
736
01:00:07.239 --> 01:00:15.119
No, say, any country involved
in a boundary dispute negotiating. It has
737
01:00:15.199 --> 01:00:19.000
to believe eventually that there will be
a solution, but that solution has to
738
01:00:19.039 --> 01:00:23.239
be a fair solution. And will
you feel more empowered to take a big
739
01:00:23.280 --> 01:00:29.400
step like that with more seats and
less like the difference at all? Sorry
740
01:00:29.760 --> 01:00:35.039
to me, the territory of India
and the fairness of a boundary solution has
741
01:00:35.079 --> 01:00:37.400
nothing to do with how many seats
there are, but the desires. Either
742
01:00:37.519 --> 01:00:39.679
it's a good deal or it's not
a good deal. Either it is something
743
01:00:40.039 --> 01:00:45.400
which is India's right, you know, I you know this is not issue
744
01:00:45.440 --> 01:00:51.599
today is not whether you know you
have the political majority or not. It
745
01:00:51.760 --> 01:00:54.199
is whether there is actually a fair
deal on the table. That's the issue.
746
01:00:54.719 --> 01:01:00.400
Quickly, on Pakistan, do we
can we start a convers if they
747
01:01:00.440 --> 01:01:04.119
reach out, would be open to
a conversation. Who do you talk to
748
01:01:04.199 --> 01:01:07.920
in Pakistan? If you have to
have a conversation you see again, look,
749
01:01:07.039 --> 01:01:13.960
we never we have never closed our
doors to talking about uh, we're
750
01:01:14.000 --> 01:01:17.719
talking with Pakistan. Question is what
is it you talk about? You?
751
01:01:19.800 --> 01:01:25.440
I mean to me they I mean
it's it's it's a no brainer. I
752
01:01:25.559 --> 01:01:30.239
mean, if if some guy has
that many terrorists cabs dedicated to, you
753
01:01:30.320 --> 01:01:36.639
know, training people who come over
with the sole intention of making your life
754
01:01:36.679 --> 01:01:38.559
difficult. I mean, surely that
should be the central part of the conversation.
755
01:01:42.320 --> 01:01:44.480
But if you were to get if
you were, would you be open
756
01:01:44.519 --> 01:01:49.639
to a conversation with the military.
No, we see again, it doesn't
757
01:01:49.760 --> 01:01:52.119
quite work that way. It's not
like you choose between this and that.
758
01:01:52.280 --> 01:01:59.639
I'man governments talk to governments. The
military is also part of the Pakistani government,
759
01:01:59.719 --> 01:02:02.519
so it's not like you're talking to
the Pakistani military and not talking to
760
01:02:02.599 --> 01:02:07.440
the Pakistani civilian. It's for them
to settle their issues. They have preconditions
761
01:02:07.519 --> 01:02:12.480
at this point. They put preconditions
for a dialogue. Well, they were
762
01:02:12.559 --> 01:02:17.639
the people who we do the High
Commissioner, so we were not you know,
763
01:02:17.719 --> 01:02:22.079
we were not the people. And
as I said, you know,
764
01:02:22.920 --> 01:02:25.599
we have never closed our doors to
talking to Pakistan, but we do not
765
01:02:25.840 --> 01:02:30.599
want to put the terrorism issue.
She must be fair square at the center
766
01:02:30.679 --> 01:02:35.840
of that conversation because it is the
major issue in the relationship. I'm not
767
01:02:35.960 --> 01:02:40.239
saying they're not other issues, but
I'm not going to duck that issue for
768
01:02:40.320 --> 01:02:49.480
the sake of talking to them.
Okay, So rapid fire, have some
769
01:02:49.599 --> 01:02:52.199
fun with it. You know,
I couldn't. I couldn't control myself.
770
01:02:52.199 --> 01:02:53.679
I've got like twenty five questions,
so I've kind of just see how we
771
01:02:53.800 --> 01:02:57.360
go, and you know, see
how fast we're able to how rapidly are
772
01:02:57.360 --> 01:03:00.000
able to answer these and how much. I can't ask you to have a
773
01:03:00.159 --> 01:03:04.039
lot of fun with all of those
questions, but the ones that you think
774
01:03:04.119 --> 01:03:07.360
you can have fun with, please
have fun with. And then we get
775
01:03:07.400 --> 01:03:10.639
to some audience questions India word barat? Which name would you prefer your host
776
01:03:10.719 --> 01:03:24.440
country uses to introduce you on your
next official visit bat Popular answer Kabyl Ukraine
777
01:03:24.679 --> 01:03:30.480
one day barat Sudan. Which was
the most stressful evacuation for you? Uh,
778
01:03:31.280 --> 01:03:37.280
tough one because each one had its
own moments of anxiety. I would
779
01:03:37.360 --> 01:03:43.119
say, uh, the you know
it's It's honestly a tough one. In
780
01:03:43.159 --> 01:03:49.239
each case we actually had firings.
People were that close to something bad happening,
781
01:03:50.159 --> 01:03:55.960
you know to one of them,
reported was one of the kabol Getting
782
01:03:57.000 --> 01:04:02.159
people to the airport was a big
challenge in in Sudan, collecting them because
783
01:04:02.159 --> 01:04:06.920
they were spread out everywhere. It
was the big challenge in Ukraine actually moving
784
01:04:08.000 --> 01:04:11.599
them from east of Ukraine to the
west of Ukraine with because there were two
785
01:04:11.679 --> 01:04:15.280
cities, Kargave and Sumi where there
was actually firing going on, I would
786
01:04:15.320 --> 01:04:19.320
say all of them are equally stressful. Okay. The one lesson American diplomats
787
01:04:19.360 --> 01:04:31.159
can learn from Indian diplomats speak better
English. You can't give an answer.
788
01:04:31.199 --> 01:04:33.880
You can't get the same answer for
the next question. The one lesson Chinese
789
01:04:33.920 --> 01:04:43.880
diplomats can learn from Indian diplomats be
nice to Indians. The one lesson Indian
790
01:04:43.960 --> 01:04:48.880
foreign policy can learn from American foreign
policy. You know, I won't give
791
01:04:48.920 --> 01:04:55.280
you a flippant answer, because actually
I think still in many ways, how
792
01:04:55.400 --> 01:05:01.119
to be a global power is something
which is enormously complex. It does that
793
01:05:01.360 --> 01:05:05.760
entail lot that are inteil allowing every
professor to come in for every seminar in
794
01:05:05.840 --> 01:05:12.840
India. Well, I think you
know the answer. Okay, Okay.
795
01:05:12.880 --> 01:05:15.920
So your your first book made lots
of references with the mabare this one.
796
01:05:16.000 --> 01:05:18.960
I enjoyed all the references of Ramayan
and some you made reference to both.
797
01:05:19.480 --> 01:05:24.000
So now I want you to imagine
you're living in a utopian time where all
798
01:05:24.159 --> 01:05:29.039
characters of Mahbaad and Ramayan are walking
on the earth. Now you have the
799
01:05:29.159 --> 01:05:33.360
magical ability to request both Hanuman and
Shri Krishna, one who I'm quoting from
800
01:05:33.360 --> 01:05:38.760
the book, performs his duties undaunted
by any obstacles, and the other a
801
01:05:38.880 --> 01:05:43.280
master strategist and source of wisdom at
difficult moments. Who would you send to
802
01:05:43.440 --> 01:05:53.599
which country to fix our relationship with? You know? I I would give
803
01:05:53.679 --> 01:05:58.639
them like a like a global contract. I'll say, you know, look,
804
01:05:59.039 --> 01:06:02.599
you are capable of fixing everything.
Do it? Because each one has
805
01:06:02.679 --> 01:06:08.480
a different strength. Okay, I'm
going to list some countries down, and
806
01:06:08.559 --> 01:06:10.480
I think you can. I'll try
to push you an answer. Okay,
807
01:06:10.480 --> 01:06:13.400
So okay, let's first tap between
Pakistan and China? Who you send to
808
01:06:13.400 --> 01:06:27.880
which country? I would probably send
Hanuman to Pakistan and Shrik Who would you
809
01:06:27.960 --> 01:06:30.639
send to Maldives? Who would you
send to Sri Lanka? Who is sending
810
01:06:30.719 --> 01:06:33.480
new pl You know I won't you
know, I would give them a global
811
01:06:33.559 --> 01:06:39.960
contract, but I won't overtax the
Which abbreviation do you think has the most
812
01:06:40.039 --> 01:06:44.119
potential and which is the most challenging
to get off ground? I to you
813
01:06:44.239 --> 01:06:46.840
too, that's India, Israel,
Ue, USA. The second abbreviation is
814
01:06:46.960 --> 01:06:53.480
i AMEC into Middle East Europe Economic
Corridor. Third abbreviation is SAGAR Security and
815
01:06:53.559 --> 01:06:58.480
Growth for All in Region. Fourth
abbreviations I p O I Indian Pacific Oceans
816
01:06:58.519 --> 01:07:01.039
Initiative and the fifth is not an
abbreviation, but just go with it QUAD.
817
01:07:02.440 --> 01:07:06.960
You know, I like I first
of all, I like this whole
818
01:07:08.119 --> 01:07:12.960
concept of abbreviations because it sticks in
people's minds. You know, you tell
819
01:07:13.039 --> 01:07:17.519
people today sagar, everybody knows what
you mean. I like sugar because it
820
01:07:17.639 --> 01:07:24.440
actually ended up as a word,
you know. So now sagar was actually
821
01:07:24.719 --> 01:07:29.119
the Prime Minister's idea in the case
why do you two? I must tell
822
01:07:29.119 --> 01:07:31.800
you it started as a joke.
You know, we were we were four
823
01:07:31.880 --> 01:07:36.800
of us, two of us were
on ground and two of us were on
824
01:07:36.920 --> 01:07:42.800
screen. Uh, And when we
met for the first time, and then
825
01:07:43.840 --> 01:07:48.400
the issue came up, so what
should we call ourselves? So I joked
826
01:07:48.719 --> 01:07:53.280
saying, you know, I do
you too, And you know, it
827
01:07:53.559 --> 01:08:00.519
was a partly YouTube music kind of
joke, and I was very so prized
828
01:08:00.920 --> 01:08:05.840
the next time we met that the
officials sort of took it up to seriously
829
01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:13.920
and it acquired sort of real life. I like quod For this reason,
830
01:08:14.360 --> 01:08:18.279
it makes it very clear that stays
at four. Okay, fair, but
831
01:08:18.399 --> 01:08:26.439
which was the most challenging to get
off the ground. You know, we
832
01:08:26.560 --> 01:08:29.880
are still very I make eye to
you two very early. But in the
833
01:08:29.960 --> 01:08:33.479
case of COUD remember a decade ago, you know, we're twenty seventeen was
834
01:08:33.520 --> 01:08:39.439
the second time we first attempted it
in two thousand and six, two thousand
835
01:08:39.479 --> 01:08:43.039
and seven, in two thousand and
seven, and it didn't work. It
836
01:08:43.119 --> 01:08:47.640
didn't work because I think the four
countries they didn't talk enough among themselves.
837
01:08:47.720 --> 01:08:54.039
Maybe they didn't, you know,
frankly have enough faith in each other.
838
01:08:55.079 --> 01:08:59.840
So when you have not succeeded on
something, that's a bit of a you
839
01:08:59.920 --> 01:09:03.279
know, it's like facing a bowler
after you got out the last time.
840
01:09:03.920 --> 01:09:10.840
You're a bit super cautious then.
So I think there was initially concern in
841
01:09:10.960 --> 01:09:17.479
twenty seventeen whether the quad would really
smoothly take off it and we have surprised
842
01:09:17.520 --> 01:09:21.279
even ourselves how well we have done
in the last seven years. Super okay
843
01:09:23.000 --> 01:09:28.479
uh are are our uri? Three
seventy Kerala Files Kashmir Files. Which film
844
01:09:28.560 --> 01:09:31.960
do you think helped bring Barratt's perspective
out more. You know, that's an
845
01:09:32.079 --> 01:09:35.560
unfair question to ask me, only
because I haven't seen some of them,
846
01:09:36.000 --> 01:09:40.600
but I did, like, yeah, you mentioned in the book, not
847
01:09:40.840 --> 01:09:44.479
just for the dancer. Yeah,
okay. The one thing that excites you
848
01:09:44.560 --> 01:09:47.159
about a possible second Trump presidency,
the one thing that concerns you for a
849
01:09:47.199 --> 01:09:54.000
second Trump presidency? Ah, you
know, let us see what happens in
850
01:09:54.039 --> 01:09:58.960
November. Climate change doesn't concern you
about it? Like that's like one thing
851
01:09:59.000 --> 01:10:00.680
that AB's talking about that if Frum
comes back, all the climate sort of
852
01:10:00.720 --> 01:10:04.760
contribution. I don't think climate change
would change between now and November. Let's
853
01:10:04.800 --> 01:10:10.239
wait till November. Okay. Space, semiconductors, artomicion, intelligence, textiles,
854
01:10:10.319 --> 01:10:13.800
manufacturing, agriculture, human resources,
which will be the biggest leverage for
855
01:10:13.880 --> 01:10:19.800
India, I would say in a
ten year time frame. Space and semiconductors.
856
01:10:20.439 --> 01:10:26.039
Okay, what's the one thing that
questions you have that I've got a
857
01:10:26.079 --> 01:10:28.960
few. I've got a few,
by the way, all the extra a
858
01:10:29.039 --> 01:10:32.760
the ones that rather do me not
to ask, So I'm still I'm going
859
01:10:32.840 --> 01:10:35.880
to try a few. What's the
one thing that needs to happen for Israel
860
01:10:35.920 --> 01:10:43.079
Hama's war to end? It's a
tough one. You know, I would
861
01:10:43.119 --> 01:10:45.600
I would honestly pass up on this, Okay. And what's the one thing
862
01:10:45.640 --> 01:10:48.319
needs to happen for Ukraine Russia?
What to I would pass No. Look,
863
01:10:48.720 --> 01:10:54.840
I think in a way eventually in
the in a case of Ukraine Ukraine
864
01:10:54.920 --> 01:10:59.840
Russia, the you know, somewhere
the parties have to come to the conclusion
865
01:11:00.600 --> 01:11:01.600
that they would like to, you
know, that they want to end the
866
01:11:01.640 --> 01:11:04.279
contry. And India has offered to
help, but somehow, but who,
867
01:11:04.520 --> 01:11:09.439
But it's not you know, look, a lot of countries at different points
868
01:11:09.479 --> 01:11:13.600
of time, even the UN,
even Guitarest has offered. But you know,
869
01:11:14.000 --> 01:11:16.560
it's it's a constant I mean,
there's a constant discussion on who is
870
01:11:16.640 --> 01:11:20.319
going to be the one who invites
both party to invite or would America to
871
01:11:20.720 --> 01:11:24.039
no. No, at this time, we don't know. Remember they were
872
01:11:24.119 --> 01:11:28.720
talking for some time after the conflict
began, you know, in Belarus and
873
01:11:28.800 --> 01:11:32.960
then in Turkey. Okay, Okay. The one thing that's changed in Indian
874
01:11:33.000 --> 01:11:36.760
governments dealing with Pakistan over the past
ten years and one thing that stayed the
875
01:11:36.840 --> 01:11:47.000
same. I would say, what
has changed is the clarity about dealing responding
876
01:11:47.079 --> 01:11:59.880
to terrorism. One thing which has
changed the remained the same is the reality
877
01:12:00.560 --> 01:12:03.720
or the fact that they are at
neb Okay. The one lesson you'd advise
878
01:12:03.800 --> 01:12:10.439
the Indian Prime minister to learn from
China's faltering economy, No, I I
879
01:12:11.159 --> 01:12:13.720
if I gave advice to the Prime
minister, I'm not going to give you
880
01:12:13.840 --> 01:12:19.960
that. Okay. Last few which
will make you happier rising on the Ease
881
01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:28.520
of Doing Business index or Redems Democracy
Index. One is a serious one in
882
01:12:28.600 --> 01:12:31.039
the real world. The other one, the less said, the better.
883
01:12:31.159 --> 01:12:35.600
Okay. In the third term,
there's a third term. The first summit
884
01:12:36.039 --> 01:12:45.159
the Prime Minister should do would be
with whom hmm, okay, who would
885
01:12:45.199 --> 01:12:46.439
you invite the third term? Who
would you invite for the swearing in?
886
01:12:47.359 --> 01:12:50.840
No, I can't answer that.
Okay. I think this has been a
887
01:12:51.119 --> 01:12:54.720
fun rapid fire. I mean,
I think you've tried to play the best
888
01:12:54.720 --> 01:12:56.560
that you can give in your position. So I appreciate all of that.
889
01:12:57.840 --> 01:13:00.119
I have skipped a few sure,
Okay, I think you can move Fine,
890
01:13:00.159 --> 01:13:02.880
Fine, fine, okay, I
ask you one last week? Is
891
01:13:02.920 --> 01:13:06.680
there one? Is there one thing
you regret in your professional career? One
892
01:13:06.760 --> 01:13:15.199
thing that stands out is something that
you want to regret. No, I
893
01:13:15.359 --> 01:13:19.239
honestly wouldn't say that, because I
know that every career, you know the
894
01:13:19.359 --> 01:13:23.680
look, there will always be someplace. You know I would have liked to
895
01:13:23.760 --> 01:13:27.800
do a posting there, But you
also know that any choice you made would
896
01:13:27.840 --> 01:13:31.079
have been at the expense of any
other choice. So I think I had
897
01:13:31.119 --> 01:13:38.039
a representative sample because a good career. It did offer different jobs, worked
898
01:13:38.079 --> 01:13:41.319
with a lot of interesting people in
interesting places. So no, really,
899
01:13:41.399 --> 01:13:44.840
no regrets. Before we go to
the audience, what's the next book about?
900
01:13:45.720 --> 01:13:51.439
Ah? Thinking thinking about it,
But I would say, and I'm
901
01:13:51.479 --> 01:13:56.960
not sure I am personally capable of
that effort, so I might make it
902
01:13:57.039 --> 01:14:00.760
a larger effort. You know,
I'm very trouble but the fact that very
903
01:14:01.319 --> 01:14:04.359
that one part of the world,
or maybe more than one part of the
904
01:14:04.439 --> 01:14:11.399
world, actually is so unaware about
our strategic traditions and thinking, et cetera.
905
01:14:12.279 --> 01:14:16.159
So I you know, to me, I would like actually to kind
906
01:14:16.199 --> 01:14:24.159
of create a primer plus on Indian
strategic traditions. You know, what,
907
01:14:24.399 --> 01:14:28.479
what has been our history? How
do we think about it? What have
908
01:14:28.600 --> 01:14:34.239
been the historical situations? How did
so I've used the epics as a as
909
01:14:34.279 --> 01:14:39.399
a sort of lens in a way, but I wouldn't like to make a
910
01:14:39.520 --> 01:14:44.199
much more serious effort and presented to
the world because I see with other cultures
911
01:14:44.279 --> 01:14:48.800
and civilizations that you know, the
Westerners would put forward something which they would
912
01:14:48.840 --> 01:14:55.359
say over the last two thousand years, this is how from the Greeks onwards,
913
01:14:55.439 --> 01:14:58.920
this is how we evolved, or
you know, the Chinese may do
914
01:14:59.079 --> 01:15:01.359
that. I I feel and I
know it is there. It's there in
915
01:15:02.439 --> 01:15:06.880
bits and pieces in people's minds,
etc. But I would definitely like,
916
01:15:08.520 --> 01:15:11.319
as I said, it's not something
I may be able to do on my
917
01:15:11.479 --> 01:15:16.720
own, but I would definitely like
to lead an effort today to put together
918
01:15:17.119 --> 01:15:25.840
what this country's history of state craft
and strategic thinking is about. Because as
919
01:15:25.920 --> 01:15:30.880
we become bigger, I think it's
important we'll have to offer more explanations and
920
01:15:30.000 --> 01:15:36.920
narratives and ideas to the world.
And it's important for the world really to
921
01:15:38.119 --> 01:15:40.880
know who we are, because I
think today that's one of the big issues.
922
01:15:40.960 --> 01:15:44.439
You know, these kind of indexes
that you're talking about, these are
923
01:15:44.479 --> 01:15:46.680
made by people, you know,
who have no understanding what India is about.
924
01:15:47.680 --> 01:15:54.319
So when people pass judgment about a
society without knowing the basics of that
925
01:15:54.439 --> 01:15:58.880
society. I think it's incumbent on
us in a way to educate, to
926
01:15:59.640 --> 01:16:03.600
narrate, to put something out there. And that's really what you think.
927
01:16:03.680 --> 01:16:06.880
You know, when we open a
temple and Middle East beautiful temple I saw
928
01:16:08.119 --> 01:16:12.319
is very fermentous to photo inside,
et cetera. Is there also something that
929
01:16:12.680 --> 01:16:17.399
is there in a way foreign policy
happening? Well, yes, you know,
930
01:16:18.640 --> 01:16:23.319
it was something which came out of
Prime Minister's visit in twenty fifteen,
931
01:16:24.039 --> 01:16:29.960
and it is in many ways,
you know, to me, reflective of
932
01:16:30.079 --> 01:16:34.119
that relationship. And the statement you
know here is the UEI also saying something
933
01:16:34.159 --> 01:16:43.359
about India. So when you know, when we talk about globalization, there
934
01:16:43.399 --> 01:16:47.800
should also be globalization of cultures or
faiths, of beliefs, of traditions,
935
01:16:47.920 --> 01:16:54.000
of heritage. So I felt very
good about it. To me, it
936
01:16:54.079 --> 01:16:56.560
was a big, big deal.
We all found that. I felt good
937
01:16:56.600 --> 01:17:00.279
about it, even from frankly from
a foreign policy perspective. To me,
938
01:17:00.680 --> 01:17:05.279
it said something about the depth of
that relationship that a project like this could
939
01:17:05.319 --> 01:17:09.439
happen. And I take my hats
off to the UA leadership. Would you
940
01:17:09.520 --> 01:17:13.159
hesitate to put more such things in
foreign policy agenda or do you think it's
941
01:17:13.239 --> 01:17:17.920
perfectly No, I don't. I
won't hesitate because you know it may be
942
01:17:18.800 --> 01:17:24.680
something new and you know, contemporary. But I would even say, you
943
01:17:24.760 --> 01:17:28.880
know, there are I don't know
if you've been to Korak or to goes
944
01:17:29.000 --> 01:17:34.479
On, there are places in India, places in the world where the Indian
945
01:17:34.680 --> 01:17:41.279
footprint, the Indian civilizational imprint,
has been there for years and we ourselves,
946
01:17:41.359 --> 01:17:44.880
many of us, have forgotten it. I don't think younger generation necessarily
947
01:17:44.960 --> 01:17:50.079
knows that. And at a time
when a country is making its a sort
948
01:17:50.119 --> 01:17:55.199
of presence felt in the world,
one part of it is how do we
949
01:17:55.479 --> 01:17:58.359
look, As I said, is
the present in the future. One part
950
01:17:58.439 --> 01:18:00.560
of it is also the past.
I would like to remind the world about
951
01:18:00.640 --> 01:18:03.920
who we were and what did we
do in the past, and how did
952
01:18:03.960 --> 01:18:09.119
we affect their lives, so that
this time around they're know in a way
953
01:18:09.199 --> 01:18:13.399
that there is a past on which
I'm building super I just can't stop talking
954
01:18:13.439 --> 01:18:15.399
to you. I have to go
to the audience because at some point,
955
01:18:15.119 --> 01:18:18.159
I mean, I would love to
keep going for hours. More so,
956
01:18:18.239 --> 01:18:21.199
we've got a few people who are
ready. Can we get the Australian High
957
01:18:21.199 --> 01:18:27.119
Commissioner Philip Green, please to start
with a question. Yes, good evening
958
01:18:27.119 --> 01:18:30.199
to doctor Jack Shinker, and thank
you very much. Can I, first
959
01:18:30.279 --> 01:18:34.720
of all, you were asked about
the countries which weren't perhaps enjoying so much
960
01:18:35.039 --> 01:18:40.520
India's rise as a global power.
Can I just inscribe Australia on the list
961
01:18:40.600 --> 01:18:45.039
of those who are quite satisfied with
India's surprises? I never doubted that,
962
01:18:45.279 --> 01:18:49.039
But can I ask you a question
about that the world is accommodating itself to
963
01:18:49.119 --> 01:18:55.960
an India that's more influential. But
how is that affecting India? And will
964
01:18:56.239 --> 01:19:02.279
a more influential and powerful India be
a different India? Will power change India?
965
01:19:04.560 --> 01:19:10.600
Well, you know, I would
say, part of how is that
966
01:19:10.840 --> 01:19:15.399
affecting India is precisely the reason I
wrote the book, which is I you
967
01:19:15.479 --> 01:19:19.319
know, as I travel around,
I go to a lot of universities,
968
01:19:19.439 --> 01:19:27.159
to meetings of professional organizations, and
I see today in the tier two what
969
01:19:27.279 --> 01:19:33.399
we call Tier two tier three cities, even places you know smaller than that,
970
01:19:34.119 --> 01:19:40.920
how much interest there is today about
foreign policy. Some of it is
971
01:19:41.079 --> 01:19:45.159
because we have a larger presence.
Some of it is also the nature of
972
01:19:45.239 --> 01:19:49.479
technology that people the world is there
in your power thanks to this patform.
973
01:19:50.319 --> 01:19:57.680
So it's important. And it's actually
with that calculation we approach G twenty that
974
01:19:58.279 --> 01:20:01.880
we wanted to use G twenty.
You know, one half of it was
975
01:20:02.000 --> 01:20:05.840
let the world see places in India
which they normally don't see. But the
976
01:20:05.920 --> 01:20:11.479
other part is let the people of
India see it in a way as a
977
01:20:11.840 --> 01:20:16.239
larger shared enterprise and it exposes them
to the debates of the world and what
978
01:20:17.359 --> 01:20:25.039
G twenty is actually about. So
your question, will India change by its
979
01:20:25.119 --> 01:20:29.720
rise? Absolutely, every society changes
as it rises, but I would very
980
01:20:29.840 --> 01:20:34.199
much hope that that change would be
in a greater understanding, greater sense of
981
01:20:34.279 --> 01:20:40.119
responsibility, more contributions that you know, if you have, I mean already
982
01:20:40.199 --> 01:20:45.840
we tried, for example, to
do more first responder operations at times,
983
01:20:46.319 --> 01:20:51.319
become a bigger source of ideas that
you know, if there is today a
984
01:20:51.399 --> 01:20:56.680
sustainability debate, or a climate change
debate, or a digital debate or a
985
01:20:56.760 --> 01:21:01.439
AI debate, give your ideas in
that try and shape the outcome. So
986
01:21:02.399 --> 01:21:06.479
I I do think we are going
in that direction. Can we Uh,
987
01:21:08.159 --> 01:21:11.680
We've got about eight questions, so
we'll try to ARTI two two together,
988
01:21:11.800 --> 01:21:15.800
two together? Yeah, can we
get from mister and any both? Right?
989
01:21:17.279 --> 01:21:20.119
Yeah, please keep the question a
little bit short, short of time,
990
01:21:27.279 --> 01:21:36.079
Ah, Sir, I'm President of
South Asian University UH. India has
991
01:21:36.560 --> 01:21:45.800
made a lot of UH progress in
the last ten years and our knowledge economy
992
01:21:45.000 --> 01:21:51.720
was just in the infancy when we
established two international universities in India UH.
993
01:21:53.479 --> 01:22:01.119
In our last twenty presidency, further
focus on has been I just wanted to
994
01:22:02.359 --> 01:22:09.399
find out, with our knowledge economy
concept taken so early and with this renewed
995
01:22:09.439 --> 01:22:14.960
focus, how do we take it
forward in the context of India's rising in
996
01:22:15.079 --> 01:22:21.359
the subcontinent and grover so south thank
you very much. Yeah. Another has
997
01:22:21.399 --> 01:22:26.520
been referred to you as a rock
star. So with elections coming in,
998
01:22:27.399 --> 01:22:30.479
first to the personal question, are
you thinking of fighting the looks of by
999
01:22:30.520 --> 01:22:35.720
elections? Two point five million,
two point five billion followers on social media
1000
01:22:36.279 --> 01:22:40.159
and a rock star? Minister?
Are you thinking of fighting the looks of
1001
01:22:40.199 --> 01:22:45.560
by elections and making it for zero
one? The more important question is that
1002
01:22:46.840 --> 01:22:51.840
we've seen America getting weakened in the
as an influencer in the Israel War.
1003
01:22:53.000 --> 01:22:59.319
We've seen Russia getting weakened with this
Ukraine war and China flexing its possible and
1004
01:22:59.479 --> 01:23:02.000
India coming up as the fourth pillar. What do you see as the global
1005
01:23:02.239 --> 01:23:08.880
order going forward? The neopolitical global
order going forward? Actually also to get
1006
01:23:08.880 --> 01:23:12.159
three together. Good thing, sir, Thank you so much for the evening.
1007
01:23:12.520 --> 01:23:14.880
My name is actually Way. They
run a company called the Liberaty.
1008
01:23:14.920 --> 01:23:18.640
Do you we help students build global
careers? Very small question, I think,
1009
01:23:18.640 --> 01:23:21.840
and then some up really well,
you're helping Indians feel very proud about
1010
01:23:21.840 --> 01:23:26.399
a foreign policy. What would be
your message for the hundreds of millions of
1011
01:23:26.399 --> 01:23:31.239
students and Indians living abroad, how
can they really contribute towards mission building in
1012
01:23:31.359 --> 01:23:38.960
the next half of the decade.
Uh? My, first, you know
1013
01:23:39.079 --> 01:23:45.119
the response about knowledge economy and universities. You know we are today there's a
1014
01:23:45.239 --> 01:23:53.479
very strong connect between education, economy
and foreign policy because we are moving today
1015
01:23:53.600 --> 01:24:00.439
to an era way. If you
see, demographics will be a big factor,
1016
01:24:00.199 --> 01:24:04.479
Skills and talent will be a very
big factor. And uh, the
1017
01:24:04.640 --> 01:24:11.159
ability to move ahead in different domains, particularly this new tech domains, would
1018
01:24:11.199 --> 01:24:16.279
be very much dependent on that.
So overall, I would say it is
1019
01:24:16.520 --> 01:24:21.199
to our advantage that we have more
universities, we have more colleges, we
1020
01:24:21.279 --> 01:24:29.239
have more skilled and technical people,
but we also have international agreements which will
1021
01:24:29.640 --> 01:24:35.239
facilitate their mobility. You know.
Uh and I see I've seen, particularly
1022
01:24:35.399 --> 01:24:42.319
last two years, much more interest
in the rest of the world in concluding
1023
01:24:42.439 --> 01:24:45.640
such mobility agreements. I mean,
we've done with Australia, We've done with
1024
01:24:45.800 --> 01:24:51.680
Germany, We've done with Austria,
with Italy. Uh and uh. This
1025
01:24:51.920 --> 01:24:59.439
this this innovation uh Ai new tech
era that I'm talking about. I think
1026
01:24:59.520 --> 01:25:04.680
it's going to create a big churn
really in the global workplace. Now your
1027
01:25:04.840 --> 01:25:10.520
question, what does it mean for
a university. It clearly means that the
1028
01:25:10.840 --> 01:25:15.159
international universities, the two of them, need to function, you know,
1029
01:25:15.680 --> 01:25:19.560
much more effectively you have just taken
charge of. So I know that's a
1030
01:25:19.720 --> 01:25:25.960
challenge that you have on your hands. But it also means for us the
1031
01:25:26.920 --> 01:25:31.319
new education policy, and you know, I think you will see that unfolding
1032
01:25:31.800 --> 01:25:36.560
the idea that we have today,
collaborative campuses, we have double degrees,
1033
01:25:36.680 --> 01:25:42.399
we have students going out, we
have universities coming in. So I think
1034
01:25:42.479 --> 01:25:47.760
you're going to see some changes in
the educational scene which will prepare itself in
1035
01:25:47.840 --> 01:25:55.720
a way for this new era.
On the global order question, because I
1036
01:25:55.760 --> 01:26:00.600
don't think standing for Louksaba is relevant
to the global order, so I will
1037
01:26:00.640 --> 01:26:04.279
put that question aside. On the
global order, what do I see.
1038
01:26:04.800 --> 01:26:11.880
I actually see, in a way, the natural diversity of the world reassert
1039
01:26:11.960 --> 01:26:15.279
itself. You know, you have
roughly today two hundred odd countries in the
1040
01:26:15.319 --> 01:26:18.560
world. Many of them are you
know, you can say there'll be.
1041
01:26:19.079 --> 01:26:23.880
Let's take even G twenty as an
example. It will not be an exhaustive
1042
01:26:23.960 --> 01:26:28.000
example. But if you take even
G twenty as an example, every one
1043
01:26:28.119 --> 01:26:33.039
of the G twenty countries in some
form today has an independent position, has
1044
01:26:33.079 --> 01:26:36.920
an influence. And now some of
them have a history, they're part of
1045
01:26:38.000 --> 01:26:41.279
an alliance. Many of them are
not. You know, even those who
1046
01:26:41.319 --> 01:26:45.319
are part of an alliance, the
nature of alliances itself is changing. So
1047
01:26:45.039 --> 01:26:51.000
I see a much more diverse world
where there are many more powers. Many
1048
01:26:51.079 --> 01:26:57.560
issues will be more regionally settled.
Not necessarily every issue will not go up
1049
01:26:57.640 --> 01:27:02.199
to the global league. You will
have these relationships on particular you know,
1050
01:27:02.520 --> 01:27:08.439
specific issues. Some countries will work
more closer than other countries. So that's
1051
01:27:08.880 --> 01:27:11.960
and to me, that's good and
not just good to me, that's natural
1052
01:27:12.399 --> 01:27:15.560
that's the way the world was meant
to be. You know, the law
1053
01:27:15.760 --> 01:27:17.840
what we have seen for the last
two hundred three hundred years is a distortion
1054
01:27:18.399 --> 01:27:25.479
where a few countries were able to
dominate others and marginalize them. So nature
1055
01:27:25.680 --> 01:27:30.159
is now returning. History is returning
today to the global order, and I
1056
01:27:30.239 --> 01:27:36.119
think we are very much part of
that process. Message to students, you
1057
01:27:36.199 --> 01:27:41.279
know one. I mean I actually
literally have one message, which is wherever
1058
01:27:41.399 --> 01:27:45.119
I go, because that's the experience
of what happened in Ukraine. You know,
1059
01:27:45.199 --> 01:27:49.640
it's very important for students to actually
think of what happens if something goes
1060
01:27:49.680 --> 01:27:54.239
wrong. It's not in their nature. I mean when I don't know what
1061
01:27:54.439 --> 01:27:58.479
you are like. I'm sure when
any of us were twenty or twenty miners,
1062
01:27:58.560 --> 01:28:02.720
we didn't worry about But the world
has many possibilities, and it's good
1063
01:28:02.800 --> 01:28:08.880
when students go out and explore that
for that world also has, you know,
1064
01:28:08.960 --> 01:28:14.680
a downside, and we really struggled
when when the Ukraine conflict happened to
1065
01:28:14.760 --> 01:28:18.119
actually even map out, you know, who was there, what was happening.
1066
01:28:18.159 --> 01:28:23.960
Today is possible to do that very
easily digitally, but we want students
1067
01:28:24.039 --> 01:28:29.359
in many ways to you know,
to get the best out of that society,
1068
01:28:30.359 --> 01:28:32.600
where they say, because I find
in many cases, you know,
1069
01:28:33.479 --> 01:28:39.279
I go back to my own postings
where I've seen very smart students who have
1070
01:28:40.199 --> 01:28:46.760
done very well in those particular places. Can we get from Russimi quick comment
1071
01:28:46.840 --> 01:28:51.760
and then we've got a couple of
products. Yeah. So, as for
1072
01:28:51.880 --> 01:28:57.479
the perception, India is giving the
preferential freetprint for US visa Russia, and
1073
01:28:57.640 --> 01:29:00.880
that is what is getting Russia to
you up with China, and India is
1074
01:29:00.960 --> 01:29:05.239
losing a space. It's not what
I heard in Moscow, all right,
1075
01:29:05.520 --> 01:29:09.159
but this is as for the perception. So that's all what I was wanting
1076
01:29:09.199 --> 01:29:13.039
to know, that that's creating a
new world order China and Russia, which
1077
01:29:13.079 --> 01:29:34.960
actually doesn't really all right, question, what do you require? Yeah,
1078
01:29:35.680 --> 01:29:39.880
you take these two and that record
to the diplomats. No, let's peak
1079
01:29:40.039 --> 01:29:46.079
three. Sure, uh, the
Chinese political counselors earlier. So please thank
1080
01:29:46.119 --> 01:29:51.439
your honor. Ab means I have
many chaln save to listen to your insights.
1081
01:29:53.119 --> 01:30:00.640
And I think tonight China figured out
permanent permanent in the difcassion. So
1082
01:30:00.079 --> 01:30:05.079
uh, I want to take the
time to have a very brief observation about
1083
01:30:05.199 --> 01:30:12.399
China's position on China Indian relations because
we consider China and the Indian are the
1084
01:30:12.560 --> 01:30:17.920
largest most popular country in this world
and important neighbors, and our leaders have
1085
01:30:18.119 --> 01:30:26.119
reached important consensus that both countries should
be development opportunities instead of threats to each
1086
01:30:26.159 --> 01:30:30.720
other. And the way are partners
instead of rivals to each other. So
1087
01:30:30.880 --> 01:30:38.960
our common interest far out outside our
differences. So you have in many occasions
1088
01:30:39.319 --> 01:30:44.520
talked about that China and Indian,
who are rising at the same time,
1089
01:30:44.840 --> 01:30:49.079
should find a way to handle each
other. Uh men, know that the
1090
01:30:49.199 --> 01:31:00.199
basic tenure of your invisage way of
how Indian China relations should develop. And
1091
01:31:00.439 --> 01:31:02.880
by the way, may I have
a very short answer to miss the announced
1092
01:31:02.960 --> 01:31:10.479
question that China wants Indian succeed and
China and the Indian we are both members
1093
01:31:10.760 --> 01:31:16.000
of global stuth and if China and
the Indian both succeeds, it means that
1094
01:31:16.239 --> 01:31:24.520
one third of the world population will
enjoyed better life, and it means a
1095
01:31:25.840 --> 01:31:32.720
more multipular and democratic international relationship.
And the Chinese people are very friendly to
1096
01:31:33.079 --> 01:31:39.880
Indian people, so we welcome more
Indian people to with it China to experience
1097
01:31:40.119 --> 01:31:44.520
our friendship. Thank you, thank
you. I wish I browoke an answer
1098
01:31:44.600 --> 01:31:49.279
that wasn't suggesting. Yeah, we
have three more of Okay, that's the
1099
01:31:49.439 --> 01:31:55.079
last, right, okay. Uh. So you know, look, uh,
1100
01:31:55.359 --> 01:32:00.840
if Russia and China have become closer, that's not an issue. I
1101
01:32:00.920 --> 01:32:05.840
mean, that's not a doing of
India. That may or may not be
1102
01:32:05.960 --> 01:32:11.119
a consequence of the situation in which
Russia finds itself via with the West.
1103
01:32:11.800 --> 01:32:17.319
So I the part I would dispute
from your question is that somewhere India's policies
1104
01:32:17.399 --> 01:32:23.199
towards the US has had some impact
on Russia's policies towards China. I don't
1105
01:32:23.239 --> 01:32:26.800
think that's not a correlation. I
would I would agree with I think our
1106
01:32:26.880 --> 01:32:30.119
policies towards Russia have been very objective, They've been very fair, and I
1107
01:32:30.199 --> 01:32:35.199
think they've been regarded like that in
Russia. And I can certainly say that's
1108
01:32:35.279 --> 01:32:41.520
a sense I had from President Putin
on Mayan War. Uh. You know,
1109
01:32:42.079 --> 01:32:46.960
frankly, developments in Mayanmar are worrying
because what we are seeing is really
1110
01:32:47.119 --> 01:32:55.159
more and more parts of may and
Maar today uh not you know, uh
1111
01:32:56.399 --> 01:33:02.920
sort of being under some you know, not under an official authority and different
1112
01:33:03.239 --> 01:33:09.520
ethnic armed organizations are taking over.
But more than that, the fighting itself
1113
01:33:09.640 --> 01:33:13.840
is creating issues for us. It
has actually come to our borders that we
1114
01:33:14.039 --> 01:33:18.159
have an influence of people as a
result of that. It is and when
1115
01:33:18.319 --> 01:33:23.720
authority collapses, it's not so much
that we are taking sights. If there
1116
01:33:23.800 --> 01:33:28.840
is no central authority and you have
a very fractured system, then all sorts
1117
01:33:28.840 --> 01:33:32.439
of other problems have. You know, it creates a fertile ground for a
1118
01:33:32.560 --> 01:33:39.279
host of illegal activities which then also
impinge on our interests. So if you
1119
01:33:39.399 --> 01:33:42.880
ask me, am I concerned about
me and mar I would say honestly,
1120
01:33:43.039 --> 01:33:47.239
very much. And do I feel
something different needs to be done than what
1121
01:33:47.439 --> 01:33:50.479
it is done, not just by
us but by everybody else, I would
1122
01:33:50.479 --> 01:33:56.399
say yes. I think, you
know, retreating what was in agreed position
1123
01:33:56.600 --> 01:34:01.119
is not an answer to the direction
of events which are today taking place in
1124
01:34:01.920 --> 01:34:06.479
me and Mark regarding you know what
you said about you know, our colleague
1125
01:34:06.520 --> 01:34:12.520
from China. You know, I
think it's in our common interest that we
1126
01:34:12.560 --> 01:34:15.800
should not have that many forces on
the line of actual country. I think
1127
01:34:15.880 --> 01:34:20.720
it's in our common interest that we
should observe agreements that we have signed and
1128
01:34:20.880 --> 01:34:26.520
I believe and I believe today.
You know, it's not just in common
1129
01:34:26.600 --> 01:34:30.960
interest. I believe it's in China's
interest as well, that this tension that
1130
01:34:30.119 --> 01:34:34.800
we have seen for the last four
years has not served either of us well,
1131
01:34:35.560 --> 01:34:40.920
you know, so the sooner we
resolve it, I genuinely believe it's
1132
01:34:41.479 --> 01:34:44.600
good for both of us. And
I am still, you know, very
1133
01:34:44.680 --> 01:34:50.279
much committed to finding a fair,
reasonable outcome, but one which is respectful
1134
01:34:50.319 --> 01:34:57.239
of agreements, which recognizes the line
of actual control, which doesn't seek to
1135
01:34:57.359 --> 01:35:06.279
change the status cope that I think
would be good for Bottles, the juwan
1136
01:35:06.399 --> 01:35:11.359
Angli, the Chilean ambassador, and
then we'll ask albut from scandary place Chilean
1137
01:35:11.399 --> 01:35:15.560
Ambassador, sir, yes, yes, thank you very much, Minister,
1138
01:35:15.640 --> 01:35:17.119
thank you all the time. It's
a great refureence to hear to you.
1139
01:35:17.600 --> 01:35:21.840
My question is sing on the different
line on the Global South and voices of
1140
01:35:21.840 --> 01:35:26.039
the Global South. I wanted to
know if there is any views on the
1141
01:35:26.199 --> 01:35:30.960
continuation of India being in South as
our voice of Global South of Glow sub
1142
01:35:31.039 --> 01:35:34.319
countries. You did the two voices
of the developer of South Summis in the
1143
01:35:34.399 --> 01:35:40.399
past using the platform at twenty and
this year is Brazil, next year will
1144
01:35:40.399 --> 01:35:44.960
be South Africating both countries also that
have aspiration to be permanent members of the
1145
01:35:45.000 --> 01:35:48.079
city Council. So I would like
to know if that was when your experienced
1146
01:35:48.119 --> 01:35:53.760
when we're planning for the future colination
with of their presidencies of the twenty maybe
1147
01:35:53.920 --> 01:35:57.880
or not? What is your fixed
thoughts about that? Thank you? Can
1148
01:35:57.920 --> 01:36:00.359
we get to some ja Plani also, Mike, we get three questions from
1149
01:36:00.640 --> 01:36:05.600
Yes, I was a real reluctant
to ask you a question, being a
1150
01:36:05.680 --> 01:36:11.439
diehard gamp follow out of use,
but I have to particularly the light of
1151
01:36:11.520 --> 01:36:17.119
what other tasks. It's not China, and notwithstanding the fact that we have
1152
01:36:17.279 --> 01:36:23.600
the sentiments of the gentleman from China
there, my question is China has proved
1153
01:36:24.399 --> 01:36:28.840
that it is no respector of international
law. Our own experience is that although
1154
01:36:28.880 --> 01:36:33.039
we have a boundary dispute resolution mechanism
nineteen ninety three and nineteen ninety six,
1155
01:36:33.720 --> 01:36:38.760
they have not honored it. That's
the two questions that follow from this.
1156
01:36:39.720 --> 01:36:45.479
First, if you care to share
it in your engagements with your counterpart Wang,
1157
01:36:47.640 --> 01:36:53.560
what is his response whenever you place
these boundary agreements to him? And
1158
01:36:53.680 --> 01:37:00.720
they're flouting of him and suddenly,
so what is to use your delightful phrase
1159
01:37:01.560 --> 01:37:08.840
the Krishna course to dealing with China
lasts Alba, please keep it short if
1160
01:37:08.880 --> 01:37:15.880
you can. Were already beyond injury
time, Minister. The China plus one
1161
01:37:15.039 --> 01:37:21.600
sitting next to him is a coincidence. Moving is moving a lot of semi
1162
01:37:21.640 --> 01:37:29.119
skilled labor into India and high tech. Either there is an immigration to other
1163
01:37:29.239 --> 01:37:35.199
countries or uh, there is a
possibility that is next ten years we will
1164
01:37:35.279 --> 01:37:40.920
have a lot of semi skilled jobs
coming to India and skill jobs going out
1165
01:37:41.000 --> 01:37:45.279
of migrating out of the country.
And like many countries that have done,
1166
01:37:45.399 --> 01:37:51.159
can we have a special visa possibility
for highly skilled scientists from Eastern Europe and
1167
01:37:51.319 --> 01:37:58.920
countries where there's a huge synergy that
can happen. And you don't mind,
1168
01:37:59.000 --> 01:38:01.119
he's very short of time. I
can add a question of duel reastionship to
1169
01:38:01.199 --> 01:38:03.359
that question if you want to bring
it up. No, No, the
1170
01:38:03.520 --> 01:38:10.239
idea of us reasonship. I mean, we've been kind of struggling so one
1171
01:38:10.399 --> 01:38:14.720
voice of the global South, you
know, in my travels in the last
1172
01:38:14.800 --> 01:38:18.319
year and a half, we did
the first summit in November in January last
1173
01:38:18.399 --> 01:38:24.319
year, and the second one in
November. I've actually seen this idea has
1174
01:38:24.359 --> 01:38:28.279
got a lot of traction. I
mean, it's interesting in different countries.
1175
01:38:29.199 --> 01:38:33.239
I've had other my counterparts or others
ask me, so, you know,
1176
01:38:33.319 --> 01:38:36.439
what will happen now? Will you
be doing the next one? Because I
1177
01:38:36.560 --> 01:38:42.880
think given the state of the world, it was important to provide a platform
1178
01:38:43.399 --> 01:38:47.199
where a very large number of countries
who otherwise felt they were not getting a
1179
01:38:47.319 --> 01:38:54.239
fair hearing actually come together and there
is a certain strength, a collective strength
1180
01:38:55.079 --> 01:38:58.199
in their coming together. You know, this year, for example, we're
1181
01:38:58.239 --> 01:39:01.840
going to have the Summit of the
Few in the United Nations. It's going
1182
01:39:01.880 --> 01:39:08.279
to be a very important summit.
So I would say, you know,
1183
01:39:08.359 --> 01:39:12.840
the concerns of the South continue.
It doesn't matter who holds the G twenty
1184
01:39:12.960 --> 01:39:17.800
presidency. The South still gets a
raw deal on many issues and needs to
1185
01:39:17.920 --> 01:39:24.399
keep flagging it and keep trying to
better its slot. We haven't exactly taken
1186
01:39:25.119 --> 01:39:29.720
a call on this, but I
have certainly reported to the Prime Minister that
1187
01:39:29.840 --> 01:39:39.199
there is such a strength of sentiment
across different countries and different regions on the
1188
01:39:40.000 --> 01:39:46.039
you know, Maiti, on your
issues. Look, you know, I've
1189
01:39:46.119 --> 01:39:50.560
known my counterpart for many years from
the time I was ambassadored there, so
1190
01:39:53.079 --> 01:40:00.479
the the present phase of times which
we have been you know, constantly in
1191
01:40:00.640 --> 01:40:05.319
touch. In fact, even on
the morning after the Galvan incident, he
1192
01:40:05.520 --> 01:40:12.159
was the person I spoke to,
and it has been my endeavor by engaging
1193
01:40:12.279 --> 01:40:16.920
him to see because there are at
the ground level, there are you know,
1194
01:40:17.039 --> 01:40:25.680
military commander's talks going on where we
also have diplomatic representatives. That's happening
1195
01:40:25.760 --> 01:40:30.520
on the ground, and that focus
of that is very much the disengagement because
1196
01:40:30.960 --> 01:40:35.560
of the very close up deployment.
Both of us are ahead of our normal
1197
01:40:35.920 --> 01:40:41.560
operating basis and normal positions, and
this is a very obviously a very tense
1198
01:40:41.640 --> 01:40:51.079
and dangerous situation. So the military
commanders are focusing on disengagement with my counterpart
1199
01:40:51.560 --> 01:40:56.359
I had at various points of time
also naturally that's been the focus. We
1200
01:40:56.479 --> 01:41:01.720
had an agreement which was in public
domain in Moscow in September twenty twenty.
1201
01:41:02.560 --> 01:41:06.880
We continue to meet from time to
time where we happen to you know,
1202
01:41:08.159 --> 01:41:14.399
intersect and the future frankly, the
future, the current state of the relationship,
1203
01:41:14.439 --> 01:41:17.479
which is obviously not good to put
it, My link and the future
1204
01:41:17.560 --> 01:41:23.159
of the relationship remains remains the issue
and the reason why when you gave me
1205
01:41:23.319 --> 01:41:28.039
that trick question. You know,
I do think, you know, what
1206
01:41:28.359 --> 01:41:31.560
kind of relationship we will have with
China? What should be the strategy?
1207
01:41:31.720 --> 01:41:35.039
What could be their strategy? And
as I said, you know, I
1208
01:41:35.479 --> 01:41:40.479
accept that the world is a competitive
place, you know, so I think
1209
01:41:40.560 --> 01:41:45.039
it requires a kind of a deep
strategizing, which is why I gave another
1210
01:41:45.640 --> 01:41:48.560
the answer that I did, you
know, regarding your question. You know,
1211
01:41:48.760 --> 01:41:53.840
look, I honestly don't like this
word China plus one. I mean
1212
01:41:54.239 --> 01:42:02.800
to me, India attracts business if
India is attractive enough, whether business leaves
1213
01:42:02.840 --> 01:42:08.199
country a or B, or is
a new business. You know, I
1214
01:42:08.720 --> 01:42:13.039
should not reduce myself to saying I
will get business from some other place.
1215
01:42:13.720 --> 01:42:16.560
That should not be my aspiration.
I would like new businesses to grow in
1216
01:42:16.680 --> 01:42:24.359
this country, to come from outside
uh And for me today, how to
1217
01:42:25.439 --> 01:42:30.359
you know, by making it easier
to do business, by creating through Gati
1218
01:42:30.439 --> 01:42:35.560
Shakti a much more efficient infrastructure,
we have to you know, we we
1219
01:42:35.640 --> 01:42:40.840
should approach business in a positive manner. We're not doing business against somebody.
1220
01:42:41.359 --> 01:42:46.199
We are good enough today to attract
technology talent. We are able to innovate,
1221
01:42:46.359 --> 01:42:50.800
we are our manufacturing capabilities are good
enough. So it's a test of
1222
01:42:50.880 --> 01:42:57.039
ourselves. That's what I would like
to prove to myself. On the visa
1223
01:42:57.239 --> 01:43:00.640
issue, I think if anybody wants
to come to India, we actually have
1224
01:43:00.880 --> 01:43:06.439
a mechanism in place, which is
employment visa. I find the employment visa
1225
01:43:06.600 --> 01:43:12.119
numbers have actually gone up in recent
years. Many more people from abroad are
1226
01:43:12.199 --> 01:43:16.760
coming and working in Indian facilities.
But certainly, if you feel that for
1227
01:43:16.920 --> 01:43:20.039
your particular need, because we had
a brief chat before I came in,
1228
01:43:20.560 --> 01:43:26.119
if you feel the system needs to
be improved, you know, we're always
1229
01:43:26.159 --> 01:43:33.399
willing to do anything that will improve
our business environment. On the fundly,
1230
01:43:33.520 --> 01:43:39.079
to conclude on the dual citizenship,
you know, I look at this moment,
1231
01:43:39.399 --> 01:43:44.359
and this was during Attelgay's time that
we arrived at a sort of modus
1232
01:43:44.439 --> 01:43:49.800
vivendi, which was the overseas citizenship. I know there's been an ongoing conversation
1233
01:43:50.000 --> 01:43:56.560
on it, but I would say
I've not heard anything which would suggest that
1234
01:43:56.800 --> 01:44:00.359
we are actually contemplating a dual citizenship
at this point. Okay, well,
1235
01:44:00.399 --> 01:44:02.479
I'll let because a lot of time. I've got a lot, a lot
1236
01:44:02.520 --> 01:44:05.640
many more questions, but because running
out of time, I let Raja have
1237
01:44:05.680 --> 01:44:09.239
the last last one, quick one, which is not at all very easy.
1238
01:44:09.399 --> 01:44:12.159
It's a very easy question. It's
a very very selfish question because I
1239
01:44:12.239 --> 01:44:15.159
want my sales team. I was
reading your book and you're talking about how
1240
01:44:15.199 --> 01:44:17.960
personal equations are so important and finance
in in this in your in your field,
1241
01:44:18.720 --> 01:44:24.640
you must have the most diverse,
difficult, thick roller decks in the
1242
01:44:24.680 --> 01:44:26.960
world. I'm not even like making
a toss you when I say that,
1243
01:44:27.039 --> 01:44:30.199
Like you, you know, you
know everybody in every part of the world
1244
01:44:30.279 --> 01:44:31.640
to kind of get through. You've
got all kinds of contacts. So just
1245
01:44:32.239 --> 01:44:36.479
how do you maintain so many relationships? I mean, do you send like
1246
01:44:36.560 --> 01:44:40.279
WhatsApp jokes forwards like what do you
do? You know? How do you
1247
01:44:40.640 --> 01:44:43.840
how do you actually do it?
And I want all the sales people in
1248
01:44:43.920 --> 01:44:47.920
an express to please hear the answer, because you know it might surprise you.
1249
01:44:48.039 --> 01:44:55.119
I actually do that sometimes I do
send WhatsApp power to WhatsApp jokes,
1250
01:44:55.199 --> 01:44:59.039
but uh it's a look, it's
a mix. First of all, it's
1251
01:44:59.119 --> 01:45:01.319
much easier to do it now,
Okay, I mean you can, you
1252
01:45:01.439 --> 01:45:06.119
can. One of the problems my
colleagues have is often I talk to my
1253
01:45:06.319 --> 01:45:11.800
counterparts, and my colleagues figured out
because they're seeing it on Twitter or next.
1254
01:45:13.079 --> 01:45:15.880
So today the nature of diplomacy itself
is changing, you know, more
1255
01:45:16.079 --> 01:45:20.520
more people directly reach out to each
other. You don't go through cumbersome uh,
1256
01:45:20.800 --> 01:45:28.119
you know, protocol process systems.
What happens when you've been around for
1257
01:45:28.239 --> 01:45:32.039
some time is you you know,
it's like any any profession, any any
1258
01:45:32.880 --> 01:45:38.960
sort of gathering. You you you
make friends, you you hang out together,
1259
01:45:39.159 --> 01:45:44.279
you eat together, you you spend
time together, you commissionate together.
1260
01:45:45.359 --> 01:45:48.079
So over a period of time,
there's like a like a kind of a
1261
01:45:48.239 --> 01:45:56.760
fraternity, which which which builds up
if fraternity can also include women, uh,
1262
01:45:57.000 --> 01:46:00.720
and then you keep it up partly
of course, I mean you'd see
1263
01:46:00.760 --> 01:46:04.800
whenever you go, I make that
effort to meet people because I have realized
1264
01:46:04.840 --> 01:46:11.640
wanting. However, you know,
you can send messages, you can be
1265
01:46:11.800 --> 01:46:15.840
in touch with people, but at
least for that first getting to know it
1266
01:46:15.039 --> 01:46:20.239
has to be in person. You
know. So during COVID, you know,
1267
01:46:20.359 --> 01:46:24.920
many of us dealt with other people. We saw them for a long
1268
01:46:25.000 --> 01:46:29.199
time only on the screen when you
actually met them, they're not always what
1269
01:46:30.079 --> 01:46:33.800
they look like on the screen.
So if you make take the trouble,
1270
01:46:33.880 --> 01:46:39.680
you get to people. But there
are people. There are colleagues or counterparts
1271
01:46:39.760 --> 01:46:43.680
with whom I have a particular shared
interest or you know, we send things
1272
01:46:44.199 --> 01:46:46.720
like you know, I have,
for example, some to give an example,
1273
01:46:47.119 --> 01:46:53.479
those who are interested in cricket.
So sometimes we exchange or it could
1274
01:46:53.520 --> 01:46:55.880
be other staff, it could be
music, it could be a movie.
1275
01:46:56.880 --> 01:47:01.199
And I often call up people honestly, when I have nothing particular, no
1276
01:47:01.319 --> 01:47:05.239
business to transam, you know,
I sometimes just call up people like how
1277
01:47:05.279 --> 01:47:11.000
are you doing? Kind of and
it's it's exactly you know, the kind
1278
01:47:11.079 --> 01:47:15.159
of the relationship building. But it's
important. This is really what makes a
1279
01:47:15.239 --> 01:47:19.960
difference, I believe, Chris.
I just wanted to say that all good
1280
01:47:20.000 --> 01:47:25.159
things must come to an end,
and we really grateful we have the Indian
1281
01:47:25.199 --> 01:47:28.239
Express to have you with us.
I hope we don't have to wait for
1282
01:47:28.319 --> 01:47:30.920
the next book for you to come
back to us or the next time.
1283
01:47:30.920 --> 01:47:35.520
I'm not going a lecture, but
we really everyone assumes your government is coming
1284
01:47:35.640 --> 01:47:41.720
back. Everyone also assumes you'll be
back in the cabinet, so as you
1285
01:47:41.840 --> 01:47:45.720
said this evening, the next five
years are going to be even more decisive
1286
01:47:45.840 --> 01:47:48.479
for India and the way India relates
to the world and the way the world
1287
01:47:48.560 --> 01:47:53.239
relates to India. We're going to
see a lot of accelerations. So we
1288
01:47:53.359 --> 01:47:58.319
hope to see you back in the
middle of Express and to one of your
1289
01:47:58.359 --> 01:48:02.399
early engagements in the next government,
it is to lay out what the new
1290
01:48:02.680 --> 01:48:05.680
agenda of this government is going to
be. Because the Prime Minister has talked
1291
01:48:05.680 --> 01:48:10.239
about doing bolder things. There's going
to be one hundred day action plan.
1292
01:48:10.720 --> 01:48:15.039
So really want you to come back
and use our platform to really lay out
1293
01:48:15.279 --> 01:48:18.720
what the next five years are going
to look like for India. But if
1294
01:48:18.760 --> 01:48:21.279
you want to do it before the
elections, you're welcome again. Please join
1295
01:48:21.359 --> 01:48:30.880
me and thank you, thank you
so much. Thank you for not you
1296
01:48:30.000 --> 01:48:34.159
were listening to doctor s. J. Schunker on Express Conversations. If you
1297
01:48:34.319 --> 01:48:38.800
like the show, then do subscribe
to us wherever you get your podcasts.
1298
01:48:39.359 --> 01:48:42.359
You can also recommend the show to
someone who you think will like it and
1299
01:48:42.560 --> 01:48:45.880
share it with a friend or someone
in your family. It's the best way
1300
01:48:45.920 --> 01:48:48.359
for people to get to know about
us. You can also tweet us at
1301
01:48:48.399 --> 01:48:53.880
Express podcast and write to us at
podcasts at indian express dot com.