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00:00:06.160Hello and welcome to the Exam Study Experts Podcast.
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00:00:14.480I've been saving up, I hope it is a will be a really great episode for you for our first interview episode of the new calendar year.
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00:00:20.320Today I'm delighted to welcome neuroscientist, international speaker and author, Dr.
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00:00:32.719Sarah McKay, who's here to give us a really fantastic overview of some of the most important principles that neuroscience teaches us about how to get the most from our brains as students.
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00:00:35.840We've really packed it in for you in today's conversation.
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00:00:58.799We're going to be exploring some of the biggest lessons from the last few decades of neuroscience research, helping you with all manner of things from helping you get your sleep and nap habits right to have more energy, helping you overcome procrastination and get stuff done, helping you regulate your emotions through the ups and downs of the academic journey, helping you stay focused and more.
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00:01:05.280Ultimately, helping you perform at your best in high pressure situations like the final exam.
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00:01:16.640Please do also stick around for a moment after class today, because after the main interview with Sarah, I'd love to just take a minute to very quickly tease what's coming up on the podcast over the next few weeks.
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00:01:34.400In essence, what we've tried to do is um hopefully quite a quite a nicely curated season whereby Sarah introduces us to quite, as I suggested, quite a wide range of important ideas: procrastination, focus, medical cognition, high performance, press uh performance under high pressure.
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00:01:46.879And then over the coming weeks, we're going to be joined by uh a number of top researchers and experts in many of those fields who will be able to offer us a deep dive into each of those issues in turn.
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00:01:59.840So today's conversation should serve as a really nice overview and introduction to the series of deep dive interviews in the different areas that I've got coming up for you on the Exam Study Expert Podcast over the next few weeks.
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00:02:06.319So please do make sure you're subscribed or following the show so you don't miss any of the action.
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00:02:08.319Now, to my guest today, Dr.
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00:02:10.560Sarah McKay is the real deal.
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00:02:20.240She has a PhD in neuroscience from Oxford University and has a distinguished career as one of Australia's best known science communicators.
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00:02:28.400She's passionate about translating brain science into practical strategies to improve health, well-being, and performance.
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00:02:41.840She has presented on ABC Catalyst, which is currently the only science show on primetime TV in Australia, presumably very familiar to many of you who listen to us from Australia, where she explored the brain health and biohacking.
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00:02:48.560She's delivered a fascinating TEDx talk on the surprising neuroscience of afternoon naps, which I'm going to ask her about today.
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00:02:54.719And she's also then author of a number of books on brain health and is regularly quoted in media around the world.
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00:03:00.240A very well respected person, very interesting, lots she's going to share with us today.
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00:03:18.080And like all of us, she of course has close personal experience of applying all of these ideas to her own experience studying, both from doing it herself in her own student days, of course, and also more recently as a mother of two ambitious teenagers who have been taking major high school exams themselves.
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00:03:21.199And I ask her about her perspective on that too.
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00:03:24.639So without further ado, I hope you're really going to enjoy this episode.
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00:03:26.560Buckle in, we're going to cover a lot of stuff.
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00:03:30.000There's got to be a lot of really useful ideas coming your way today.
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00:03:30.800Dr.
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00:03:34.879Sarah, a very warm welcome to the Exam Study Expert Podcast.
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00:03:36.560Thank you for the invitation.
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00:03:43.759I wonder if a good place to dive in would just be: can you give us a simple model to explain how the brain works?
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00:03:47.759Let's just take a broad conceptual look at what the what the brain is doing.
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00:03:50.639It is processing a lot of information.
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00:04:05.280A lot of that information is streaming its way in from our body, and then the brain is kind of figuring out what that means and then applying various signals back to our body to, you know, grow it, maintain it, keep it healthy, keep it in homeostasis.
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00:04:12.639A ton of information is also streaming its way in from the outside world, primarily through what we see and what we hear, because we are human.
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00:04:23.920So most of our visual, our sensory processing is taken up with visual information, auditory information, but also if you know we can hear, you know, taste something, smell something, feel something if it's close enough to us.
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00:04:25.199But then we are human.
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00:04:32.240So we also have this, I suppose we could call it variously, people might call it mind, or they might call it our psychology.
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00:04:39.199This could include your thoughts, your beliefs, your expectations, your memories, your mind.
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00:04:42.639And I call this bottom up, outside in, top down.
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00:04:56.160And all the brain is doing at any moment in time, but also across the course of the lifespan is receiving all of this information from the bottom up, the outside in, and the top down, and going, huh, okay, I might do that next.
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00:05:05.519So say the information from your body is, you know, signaling body temperature, but you're a little bit hotter than your sort of homeostatic set point.
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00:05:11.920Your brain will tell your body to behave in a way to cool you down, which will be to sweat and to vasodilate.
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00:05:18.399And then perhaps if it needs a little bit more on board, you will have a conscious sensation of feeling hot.
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00:05:22.160So, you know, you might take your blazer off or something to cool down.
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00:05:25.519The brain is, you know, perhaps you you you hear a sound.
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00:05:31.279I'm doing my podcast now, and you know, a a sound, a loud sound from outside my door distracts me.
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00:05:34.639So there's an outside-in signal, and then I'll process that.
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00:05:41.519And perhaps I'll go, well, that was one of my teenage boys being far too loud when they know my mother is doing a podcast before they leave the house.
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00:05:47.680So, you know, I'll either wait to see if they quieten down, or perhaps I'll storm out the door and shout at them.
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00:05:56.399So all the brain is doing is making meaning of all of this information from the bottom-up body, the outside in world, the top down, and figuring out what to do next.
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00:06:02.879Sometimes what the brain has done is it's storing this input or this information as a memory.
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00:06:07.279Now you may or may not have some kind of conscious recollection of that memory.
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00:06:11.519You don't usually remember how to tie your shoelaces or how to type on a computer.
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00:06:15.759You might remember learning that, but you're not having to consciously access that memory.
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00:06:17.759It's more of an implicit storage.
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00:06:28.160Um but some things you might, you know, you might wander through your autobiographical past, you know, remember, I don't know, an exam that you sat a few days ago and kind of ruminate over that in your mind.
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00:06:34.079A lot of what the brain is doing is storing information that you've taken on board.
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00:06:36.480Some of that might be, cool, that was awesome.
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00:06:39.120I will do that next time I encounter this situation.
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00:06:41.920Or perhaps the brain's gone, huh, that sucked.
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00:06:43.680I don't think I'm going to do that again.
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00:06:46.879Next time I'm in this situation, I will avoid that situation.
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00:06:52.879And the brain kind of does that moment by moment, but then across sort of the course of our lifespan.
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00:07:03.759So in essence, it takes on board information from a number of different sources, makes meaning of that, remembers a lot of it, and then guides our body what to do next in the world.
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00:07:07.040So our brain's doing a lot of stuff, it's working quite hard.
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00:07:10.399How do we help keep it working optimally?
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00:07:16.639What are some of the kind of the big hygiene factors, if you like, that help it keep functioning at its best?
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00:07:24.319Well, we'll start, we know, we can look at it from what do we do to keep our body healthy if the brain is receiving information and it's in within our body.
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00:07:28.000Our brain isn't some separate being from our body.
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00:07:30.959It's an organ in the body like the heart or the lungs or the gut.
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00:07:39.120And so the things that we would do that, you know, we we learned at school about keeping our our our bodies healthy, also keep our brain healthy.
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00:07:43.040So it's it's very much back to the boring basics, I'm sorry.
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00:07:56.160It's things like eating, eating the right kind of food, nourishing, you know, your body and your brain with you know a healthy, broad whole food diet, you know, less junk food, more kind of food that's growing in the ground.
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00:08:00.319It is moving your body and exercising your body and moving your body around.
00:08:00.319 -->
00:08:09.279And if you think about what brains evolve to do, brains and nervous systems only exist in organisms that can move and navigate around.
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00:08:13.839Plants don't have a nervous system because they're kind of embedded in the brown in the ground.
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00:08:17.040Lichens, seaweeds don't have nervous systems.
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00:08:21.439Organisms that can navigate through the world need to be able to react and respond to the world.
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00:08:28.079And we think as humans evolved, our brains got more and more complex as we started to navigate through the world.
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00:08:46.080And so when we are moving our bodies through the world, if we're even if we're just simply just going for a walk, whether you don't, you know, need to be going to the gym and lifting weights, but any kind of exercise you're doing is exercising your brain in the way that it evolved to interact with your surroundings.
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00:08:47.759That's by moving through.
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00:08:50.000So diet, exercise.
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00:08:55.919And then I think perhaps the foundation on which most of brain health lies is sleep.
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00:09:03.600And sleep, depending on who you are and which age and life stage you're at, may be more or less easy to kind of come by.
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00:09:05.600I've always been quite a good sleeper.
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00:09:12.080I think my teenage boys, remarkably for teenagers, you know, seem to have navigated life's.
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00:09:17.919Maybe I just embedded that good habit in them when they were young, but they sleep reasonably well, so they tell me.
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00:09:20.080So sleep is fundamentally important.
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00:09:21.919And we spend a third of our lives doing that.
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00:09:24.559So there's obviously a strong biological mandate to do that.
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00:09:28.159If we have one night without sleep, we feel terrible.
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00:09:40.159All of our, you know, our our health from our thinking, our cognition, our emotional regulation, all the way through to our metabolism start to kind of go on the decline, even if we skip one night's sleep.
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00:09:43.759So there's some basic bottom-up ways we can take care of our body.
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00:09:59.200Outside in is very much about, you know, what in the outside world, what information is the brain taking in, which can kind of keep it healthy or at least support us cognitively while we're perhaps navigating a difficult time.
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00:10:00.879So there's a number of things in there.
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00:10:12.399Social relationships, interactions with other people are kind of probably one of the greatest sources of resilience that we would have out there, but they can also be the greatest source of vulnerability.
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00:10:14.720And again, it depends on your age and life stage.
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00:10:17.840During adolescence, the social cognition networks in the brain.
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00:10:29.840So those are the parts of the brain which are involved with thinking about what other people think and feel and interacting with other people, they're highly plastic, which means they're very hypersensitive to social interactions.
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00:10:38.320So we kind of seek them out and desperately need them, but they can also, you know, make us feel incredibly vulnerable and self-conscious at the same time.
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00:10:44.480So having good, strong social networks and social supports we know is fundamental for keeping a brain healthy.
00:10:44.480 -->
00:10:50.320And then I'll give a shout out to this thing, a mobile phone, this device.
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00:10:55.759I didn't obviously, I am 50, did not grow up with one of these in my hand.
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00:11:01.440And I know that it's feels almost um cliche to tr to discuss now.
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00:11:06.480Um, especially if there's any people who are younger listening who grew up in the digital world.
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00:11:12.960We have a whole range of we didn't uh we didn't evolve knowing what happened on the other side of the world.
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00:11:19.440Whatever kind of horror or excitement or thing that happened to some other person.
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00:11:21.440It typically happened beyond the horizon.
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00:11:24.960We couldn't see it, we couldn't hear it, we certainly couldn't smell it or taste it.
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00:11:27.519We still can't, we can't throw this device.
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00:11:36.639Now, everything that happens anywhere in the world is almost happening in the in the palm of our hand, and it is streaming its way in through our senses.
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00:11:43.600It's almost kind of one of the most powerful kind of sources of information that is making our way into our brain.
00:11:43.600 -->
00:11:45.759Now that can be great, that can be useful.
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00:11:49.440I mean, people are probably listening to this podcast on one of these devices as well.
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00:11:54.240But it has taken on board an incredible salience in our lives.
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00:11:59.840And, you know, I don't need to belabor the point everyone knows what it feels like when you haven't got your phone there.
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00:12:05.279Um, and it's it's kind of almost taken over a ton of our outside in sensory processing.
00:12:05.279 -->
00:12:15.679And we can talk a little bit more about what some of the research shows about how much attention it consumes and the consequences that can have in terms of our brains.
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00:12:29.519I will just sort of say, broadly speaking, is don't underestimate the outside in kind of, you know, fire hose of information processing that our brains now have to do because of these things in our lives.
00:12:29.519 -->
00:12:39.360Um, something else to pay attention to in the outside in world, popularized by a colleague of mine, um, Andrew Huberman, who's a neuroscientist, some people may have come across.
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00:12:59.840We did our PhDs on the same topic at the same time, is around on visual cortex processing, on processing visual information, is the role of the rising and the setting of the sun and that kind of diurnal rhythm of the day the earth spins on its axis as it goes around the sun, and that means half, you know, half of our lives are spent in night in nighttime.
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00:13:19.519And that sort of feeds into understanding that, you know, every cell in our body kind of ebbs and flows in this sort of 24-hour rhythm to the rising and the setting of the sun, and to understand the importance of that signaling, that outside in signaling, which is made a whole lot harder by, you know, our modern lives.
00:13:19.519 -->
00:13:27.039And then finally, I think top-down is is perhaps the hardest aspect of thinking about how to keep our brains healthy.
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00:13:42.559It's the hardest to kind of hold on to because a lot of it is kind of it's almost as if trying to think about our thoughts or control our thoughts using our mind, or I don't know whether you've discussed metacognition, the idea of thinking about what you're thinking and kind of assessing a thought process.
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00:13:44.960That's kind of next level, kind of processing.
00:13:44.960 -->
00:13:47.519And lots of, you know, adults have zero capacity to do that.
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00:13:49.600Perhaps they've never learned, they've never been taught.
00:13:49.600 -->
00:13:58.480But understanding, I suppose the first step in this is awareness to understand, to have to think about your thoughts, to think about your feelings.
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00:14:24.960Perhaps not spend too much time as you may have been taught to wallow around in your emotions and constantly be thinking about your feelings, but to understand that you can over time learn to think about what you're thinking and think about what you're feeling and have awareness over your mindset, which I think is perhaps one of the hardest skills to learn and is something that you can kind of practice thinking about where you direct your attention.
00:14:24.960 -->
00:14:38.399Attention can be driven by an external stimulus or something in your body, something can grab your attention and you can turn towards it, or you can just thoughtfully decide which direction to sort of send your attention.
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00:14:47.440I often think about attention as like a flashlight, you know, one of those ones or a torch where you can turn the end and you can make it really broad and diffuse or very narrow and focused.
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00:14:57.679And if you're in a very imagine you're in like a dark room and that is your only light source, you can kind of you can decide where to direct that attention, but you can't kind of direct it at two things at once.
00:14:57.679 -->
00:15:01.360You can, you know, there's two things on the opposite side of the room that you're wanting to look at.
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00:15:05.679All you can do is kind of look at one and then the other and then one and then the other.
00:15:05.679 -->
00:15:11.919And that's determining what information your brain is is taking in and what it's and what it is filtering out.
00:15:11.919 -->
00:15:18.320And that is then directly correlated to the information processing that your brain can do at any moment in time.
00:15:18.320 -->
00:15:20.159So there's a lot I've covered off there.
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00:15:38.480I talked about how we can take care of our bodies using the basics of sleep and healthy food and exercise, thinking about the social world around us, thinking about the inputs from our phones, thinking about respecting kind of night and day, and then a little bit about thinking about thinking and thinking about attention.
00:15:38.879 -->
00:15:43.039A great summary, and and so many great uh points in that uh alone.
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00:15:46.879There's there's a couple of those I'd love to double-click on if if if you would mind.
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00:15:48.879So I mean, such such great advice.
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00:16:02.639Um one thing I I came across uh in in your writing which really caught my attention was when we think about the category of eating well, I mean there's a lot of kind of basics in there that you know hopefully many of us should should should know.
00:16:02.639 -->
00:16:11.279One thing that I read in your work, you you wrote that the brain evolved to work optimally uh or more optimally when you're slightly hungry and looking for food.
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00:16:13.039Tell us a little bit about that.
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00:16:32.799Yeah, I think that's around the this idea of if you think about the classic scenario would be how kind of alert and motivated and kind of on do you feel when you are you know, you've just had Christmas dinner or Christmas lunch and you've stuffed your face full of food.
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00:16:47.039You've been eating for like an hour and a half and you're with the family, you're not then feeling alert and on the ball and engaged and like you could, you know, go and smash out a three-hour calculus exam.
00:16:47.039 -->
00:16:59.759Typically you're fat, you're full, you're just sleepy, you're kind of your nervous system is uh gone into what we would call colloquially, sometimes known as sort of rest and digest mode.
00:16:59.759 -->
00:17:05.200So it's kind of dialing down, it's kind of relaxed, and hopefully you're feeling happy.
00:17:05.200 -->
00:17:07.279It depends on how well we get on with the family.
00:17:07.279 -->
00:17:34.160And the opposite of that is perhaps when we are, and this is not um, because I have to be very careful because we don't want to talk about fasting and promoting, you know, eating disorders and not eating, but the opposite of that is when you are slightly hungry and you've kind of got that, you're almost sort of in anticipation mode of like, I know that there's a meal coming up, or I'm I'm hungry, and you you're not gonna be able to sort of sit necessarily sit down and focus on the task in front of you.
00:17:34.160 -->
00:17:36.240You're almost kind of in searching and seeking mode.
00:17:36.240 -->
00:17:41.359It's almost as if there's this kind of drive within you to go and like look for food.
00:17:41.359 -->
00:17:52.160And so your nervous system kind of flips more into this kind of search and seek and attention mode of to what to what is kind of out there in the world.
00:17:52.160 -->
00:18:01.839So, you know, we've got lots of different processes in our, we've got our brain, and then we've got these different branches of our nervous system, and one branch is known as the autonomic nervous system.
00:18:01.839 -->
00:18:10.480And so it's kind of almost these two branches and then autonomic nervous system, the sympathetic and the parasympathetic, are kind of seesawing, you know, with each other.
00:18:10.480 -->
00:18:21.759It's not one's on and the other's off, but sort of when you're when you're full and when you're fed, you're in a much more relaxed state because you don't need to do anything next.
00:18:21.759 -->
00:18:23.920You just need to rest and digest.
00:18:23.920 -->
00:18:36.960And the opposite of that is when you are sort of slightly hungry, not starved, not like I haven't eaten for days, but perhaps the next meal is coming, you kind of activated more into more of an alert sort of search and seek mode.
00:18:36.960 -->
00:18:45.440And if we think again, we'd I mean, you know, evolutionary psychology or thinking about how our brains evolved is just one way to think about brains and how they work.
00:18:45.440 -->
00:18:53.920But if you think about not living in a house full of food, but say you're, you know, camping alone in the bush, you've got to kind of go and find something to eat right.
00:18:53.920 -->
00:18:58.960And so lounging around being half asleep isn't gonna isn't going to get you there.
00:18:58.960 -->
00:19:06.400So it's just a just some ways of kind of thinking about alertness and motivation versus kind of calm and relaxation.
00:19:06.799 -->
00:19:12.240So maybe don't eat to like 100% totally stuffed society if you've got a bunch of work to do later.
00:19:12.480 -->
00:19:14.319Yeah, if you've got 80%.
00:19:14.319 -->
00:19:25.440And maybe not necessarily hacking your attention using food, but perhaps understanding which is the best kind of time and day to work.
00:19:25.440 -->
00:19:42.799And yeah, perhaps if you're, you know, you've got a big exam or you've got a big study session coming up, then I mean you need to fuel yourself, but you're probably not gonna go and have like a giant roast turkey and loads of dessert and loads of sugary drinks and you know, alcohol if you're drinking alcohol.
00:19:42.799 -->
00:19:44.640You're not gonna do eat all of those things.
00:19:44.640 -->
00:19:48.799Because then your brain is going to have to kind of process and digest all of that.
00:19:48.799 -->
00:19:51.599But similarly, you're not going to go in starving.
00:19:51.599 -->
00:19:53.920You're not going to like not eat before an exam.
00:19:53.920 -->
00:19:59.680It's just about perhaps understanding how your body and brain are going to kind of see saw between these different states.
00:19:59.680 -->
00:20:01.519Based on how much food you've eaten.
00:20:01.839 -->
00:20:04.559As with so many things in life, there is a sweep spot.
00:20:04.640 -->
00:20:06.880There's a body between the two extremes.
00:20:06.880 -->
00:20:07.440Yeah.
00:20:07.440 -->
00:20:10.240And the brain, the brain often functions in a sweet spot.
00:20:10.240 -->
00:20:11.519It's known in neuroscience.
00:20:11.519 -->
00:20:14.559There's a kind of, we call it the Yerkes-Dodson curve.
00:20:14.559 -->
00:20:27.039So if you kind of think sometimes we can be in a state where just like complete meh, like calm relaxation, just sort of underwhelm boredom.
00:20:27.039 -->
00:20:30.480It's not really a great state for kind of learning.
00:20:30.480 -->
00:20:39.440But then we can also become like so stressed and so alert and so hyper-vigilant and so kind of dialed up that we're we're also overwhelmed.
00:20:39.440 -->
00:20:46.720And that sweet spot is somewhere between the two, kind of alert but calm, not hyped up and not half asleep.
00:20:47.039 -->
00:20:52.559Does the idea of that sweet spot apply to um one of the other factors you mentioned, uh the importance of getting enough sleep?
00:20:52.559 -->
00:20:57.119Is there such a thing as you talked about such a thing as too little sleep, is there such a thing as too much?
00:20:57.440 -->
00:21:06.960I'm not necessarily sure there's that many people on earth who need to worry about getting too much sleep versus not enough, because of course we will naturally wake up.
00:21:06.960 -->
00:21:26.160I I think if people have gone through periods of sleep debt or that, you know, they've gone through periods of not getting much sleep, then your body and your brain will naturally kind of react and respond by trying to kind of sleep for a little bit longer to make up for that lost, those, those lost hours and and previous nights.
00:21:26.160 -->
00:21:38.079More so at the the long-term data across the lifespan shows it's not the total number of hours that you sleep, it's more about the regularity of those hours.
00:21:38.079 -->
00:21:42.640So it's more about the regularity of bed times and the regularity of wake times.
00:21:42.640 -->
00:21:44.559Not going to bed at 4 a.m.
00:21:44.559 -->
00:21:48.880one night and sleeping for eight hours and then a couple of nights later going to bed at 10 p.m.
00:21:48.880 -->
00:21:50.799and then a couple of days later 6 p.m.
00:21:50.799 -->
00:21:52.319It's not at some students.
00:21:52.480 -->
00:21:55.359It's more about whether they're in school versus holidays, you know, they'll be able to do that.
00:21:55.359 -->
00:21:56.880And students do do that.
00:21:57.599 -->
00:21:57.759Yeah.
00:21:57.759 -->
00:21:59.680It's about the regularity.
00:21:59.680 -->
00:22:16.079And it's hard to kind of apply this to, say, high school students or university students, because you do have these periods of like being very, very on and then being very off, and like kind of roller coastering between the school term or university terms and then the holidays.
00:22:16.079 -->
00:22:22.559And broadly what we see in terms of long-term health outcomes is around the regularity of sleep.
00:22:22.559 -->
00:22:29.119So if you've gone through a year or two of disrupted sleep, it's not going to have long-term ramifications on brain health.
00:22:29.119 -->
00:22:36.240It might make you just feel foggier and less able to pay attention and regulate your emotions and cognitively fit during that time.
00:22:36.240 -->
00:22:44.000The long-term brain health data, when we're kind of casting back across someone's lifespan, we see it's not about the total number of hours slept.
00:22:44.000 -->
00:22:47.680It's more about the the regularity of that sleep.
00:22:47.680 -->
00:22:50.079And I mean, I was young once, I know what it was like.
00:22:50.079 -->
00:22:53.680Now I, you know, love going to bed and I'm always in bed before my boys.
00:22:53.680 -->
00:23:01.920But that kind of swinging between going to midnight, midnight to you know 10am sleeps at the weekends versus 9 p.m.
00:23:01.920 -->
00:23:02.799to 6 a.m.
00:23:02.799 -->
00:23:09.920during the week is not ideal, but also it's perhaps a bit of a rite of passage.
00:23:09.920 -->
00:23:21.680If you really want to focus in on, you know, optimizing this, you know, your sleep over anything else, then the regularity of bedtimes and wait times is is probably the path to go down.
00:23:21.680 -->
00:23:32.480I don't I don't want to give people advice whereby they think, oh, they've got to never go and socialise or never go to the parties, never hang out with my mates, never watch that movie instead of sleeping.
00:23:32.480 -->
00:23:35.359You've got to have you've got to have a you've got to have a good time too.
00:23:35.680 -->
00:23:39.440That's important for the social connection component that you're another of your factors.
00:23:39.920 -->
00:23:40.480For sure.
00:23:40.960 -->
00:23:50.799So sleep and tell us about really cra good practical point about regularity, you know, as far as we can, and you've kind of given it a sensible kind of moderation on that.
00:23:50.799 -->
00:23:52.400Um what about naps?
00:23:52.400 -->
00:23:54.000What does the science tell us about naps?
00:23:54.000 -->
00:23:54.960Good thing, bad thing?
00:23:54.960 -->
00:23:55.440Do we have a lot of things?
00:23:55.599 -->
00:23:56.720Yeah, I quite like a nap.
00:23:56.720 -->
00:23:58.319I've always liked a nap.
00:23:58.319 -->
00:24:09.759And I r very distinctly remember when I first started wanting naps was when I was in my first year of university, and I would get to about 2.30 in the afternoon and I'd be like, I just want to fall asleep.
00:24:09.759 -->
00:24:18.720And I always used to think, oh, is it because I've spent all of those years at school when you get to 2.30 and it's nearly the end of the school day, you've got like half an hour left.
00:24:18.720 -->
00:24:25.039You kind of, you know, you've you've learned over years that it's time to start winding down and it's it's the end of the day.
00:24:25.039 -->
00:24:31.359But if we look across different cultures in the world, there's, you know, more or less acceptability in terms of of napping.
00:24:31.359 -->
00:24:35.920And I have learned over the years to become what I call a strategic napper.
00:24:35.920 -->
00:24:41.440So I used to get to
2:30, 3 in the afternoon and just be like fighting, fighting, fighting.
00:24:41.440 -->
00:24:45.920I would always felt like I spent two or three hours fighting off that urge to sleep.
00:24:45.920 -->
00:24:47.519Now I work for myself.
00:24:47.519 -->
00:24:49.920I don't, I'm not a I don't have a boss.
00:24:49.920 -->
00:24:53.279I don't have lectures that I have to be at at a certain time of the day.
00:24:53.279 -->
00:25:01.759So if I do feel that urge, and I more or less, depending on what's going on in my day, um, I have learned to be what I call a strategic napper.
00:25:01.759 -->
00:25:07.519And a strategic napper is different to someone who feels sleepy in the afternoon and then just sleeps for three hours.
00:25:07.519 -->
00:25:10.720I would never sleep for more than half an hour.
00:25:10.720 -->
00:25:21.680And the idea here is you can get the benefits in your brain and in your body of sleep without the downsides of sleeping too long during the day.
00:25:21.680 -->
00:25:31.680And there's this kind of a there's kind of a sweet spot, again, of about under half an hour whereby you you fall asleep, you don't fall into deep sleep.
00:25:31.680 -->
00:25:35.839Because if you fall into deep sleep, waking up from deep sleep feels terrible.
00:25:35.839 -->
00:25:39.839You're like lethargic, you've just, you kind of can't get up and going again.
00:25:39.839 -->
00:25:42.240You and everyone kind of knows how that feels.
00:25:42.240 -->
00:25:52.079But the benefits that come from sleeping for just a short amount of time, we've got this, we've got a couple of different drives towards sleep in our brain.
00:25:52.079 -->
00:25:57.599And one of those is the kind of the 24-hour light-dark cycle, and another is known as sleep drive.
00:25:57.599 -->
00:26:05.359And it's almost like kind of a molecule drives this kind of urge to sleep that kind of increases during the day, this drive towards sleep.
00:26:05.359 -->
00:26:14.000And there's a particular molecule in your brain, which is just kind of is is produced by neurons in your brain as they go about their daily tasks.
00:26:14.000 -->
00:26:17.200And there are receptors for this molecule in the brain.
00:26:17.200 -->
00:26:23.359And the more molecules latch onto the receptors in the brain, kind of the sleepier and sleepier and sleepier you get.
00:26:23.359 -->
00:26:31.920Now, one way in which you can block that molecule from bumping onto a receptor is with coffee or is with caffeine.
00:26:31.920 -->
00:26:38.160And another way you can kind of clear all of the receptors and lower sleep drive is with sleep itself.
00:26:38.160 -->
00:26:52.079And what we understand from a short bout of sleep, even if it's just 20 minutes of sleep, is all of those receptors get kind of cleared of that molecule, known as adenosine, all those receptors get cleared of that molecule and it kind of lowers sleep drive.
00:26:52.079 -->
00:27:00.319And we've all got kind of a different biological set point and different kind of, I suppose, cultural acceptance of that kind of afternoon nap or the siester.
00:27:00.319 -->
00:27:07.759And what just even a short bout, even 20 minutes, 25 minutes of sleep does is it kind of removes that sleep drive.
00:27:07.759 -->
00:27:15.039So instead of fighting through, as I used to, three, three or so hours of wanting to sleep, 20 minutes will remove that.
00:27:15.039 -->
00:27:21.519And it has other knock-on benefits as well, particularly around emotional regulation.
00:27:21.519 -->
00:27:30.720And this is kind of overall ability to kind of regulate your emotions, choose where you're paying attention to, and then focus and concentrate on what you want to.
00:27:30.720 -->
00:27:38.559Instead of just kind of your your attention being distracted by this need to sleep, you kind of get rid of that urge and refocus.
00:27:38.559 -->
00:27:40.880So we we see quite a lot of benefits.
00:27:40.880 -->
00:27:43.839There's also some benefits in terms of memory retention.
00:27:43.839 -->
00:27:48.720So we know when we've learned something, the best way to consolidate what we have learned is with sleep.
00:27:48.720 -->
00:27:53.200And we can get a little bit of a benefit with that, even with one of these very, very short naps.
00:27:53.200 -->
00:27:59.759The absolute key is like what we've said about this sort of sweet spot in the brain, is not to go for longer than half an hour.
00:27:59.759 -->
00:28:07.519Because if you go for longer than half an hour, you fall into deep sleep, and then you're getting the kind of the downsides of that.
00:28:07.519 -->
00:28:10.559You just need the benefits of the first, the first part.
00:28:10.559 -->
00:28:15.759If you also go into deep sleep, then it makes it harder to sleep that night.
00:28:15.759 -->
00:28:22.400Now, over the years, I have spoken to so many people about napping, and I often talk to people who'll go, Well, well, I'm a regular napper.
00:28:22.400 -->
00:28:25.359I, you know, what I call a regular strategic napper.
00:28:25.359 -->
00:28:42.880They've got a protocol, you know, they they know how to do it and why they're doing it, and they've got that, and people will have like I've spoken to someone who was a veterinarian and they had a a sofa in their veterinary practice where and they used to block out a couple of appointments, and that was where they had their kind of little nap in the afternoon.
00:28:42.880 -->
00:28:50.880I know I spoke to a real estate agent once who said he had a camping mattress in his office and he would roll that out and he would sleep on there.
00:28:50.880 -->
00:28:54.559These are people who strategically nap and have a protocol around it.
00:28:54.559 -->
00:28:57.119And I'll always say to them, how do you sleep at night?
00:28:57.119 -->
00:28:59.200And they'll be like, I best sleeper in the world.
00:28:59.200 -->
00:29:00.400Sleep like a log.
00:29:00.400 -->
00:29:09.920People who strategically nap are also very good night sleepers, which is really interesting, that they have a very strong positive association with sleep.
00:29:09.920 -->
00:29:14.000So it will not ruin your night's sleep if you do it strategically and carefully.
00:29:14.000 -->
00:29:16.079And you know how to sleep for a short amount of time?
00:29:16.400 -->
00:29:16.960Set an alarm.
00:29:17.119 -->
00:29:17.680It's not imaginable.
00:29:17.920 -->
00:29:19.119Have a coffee before you go to sleep.
00:29:19.279 -->
00:29:24.319Well, you can have a coffee first, because then you get the double up of getting clearing the receptors out.
00:29:24.319 -->
00:29:29.279But not if it's in the afternoon, because then that coffee will still be in your system like that evening when you want to go to sleep.
00:29:29.279 -->
00:29:30.319Just set an alarm.
00:29:30.319 -->
00:29:32.960People go, Oh, how would I wake up after 20 minutes?
00:29:32.960 -->
00:29:35.839Just put your alarm on your phone.
00:29:35.839 -->
00:29:37.039And so I'll do that.
00:29:37.039 -->
00:29:39.599I'll set an alarm on my phone for like 25 minutes.
00:29:39.599 -->
00:29:41.839I'll be like, oh my god, I need to go to sleep.
00:29:41.839 -->
00:29:45.200Alarm on the phone, wake up 25 minutes later and I'll and I'm ready to go.
00:29:45.200 -->
00:29:48.000And I can like almost within five minutes, I'm smashing out some work.
00:29:48.319 -->
00:29:48.880Nice, nice.
00:29:48.880 -->
00:29:51.359I wanted to ask you about the memory consolidation point.
00:29:51.359 -->
00:30:00.799Something I have come across a few times now, and I don't know where this advice is coming from, but someone's putting it out there, obviously, is is linked to this idea of memory consolidation when we sleep.
00:30:00.799 -->
00:30:06.000And so the idea is we want to be kind of looking through our stuff immediately before we go to sleep.
00:30:06.000 -->
00:30:14.400So so in that final like 20 minutes before you actually fall asleep at night, you're kind of going through your material that you're trying to memorize from that day as a like a final thing.
00:30:14.400 -->
00:30:16.319So freshen your brain before you go to bed.
00:30:16.319 -->
00:30:20.400My big problem with that is we may be neglecting the sort of emotional dimension to that.
00:30:20.400 -->
00:30:36.640And and you know, many of us there's an element of Yeah, you know, some element at least of of maybe slight tension or pressure associated with kind of academic performance, and doing that then means we don't fall asleep so easily and we're a little bit stressed and when we should be kind of winding down and calming down ahead of bed in order to prioritize sleep quality.
00:30:36.880 -->
00:30:37.039Yeah.
00:30:37.440 -->
00:30:38.640What's what's your take on this?
00:30:39.119 -->
00:30:50.480I'm not sure if anyone has looked because I haven't looked at this research, it may be out there on how much time you should have before you've learned something and then and then sleep.
00:30:50.480 -->
00:30:59.039But we know that sleep processes and embeds the memories of what we've experienced during the that day when we've been awake.
00:30:59.039 -->
00:31:12.640I'm not sure whether smashing out some, you know, flashcards in those 20 minutes before you fall asleep means you're more likely to remember them than if you looked through those flashcards at one in the afternoon.
00:31:12.640 -->
00:31:13.599I doubt it.
00:31:13.599 -->
00:31:26.880Like you say, I think hyping yourself up and engaging your brain, you would be better off getting into kind of dial-out mode, dimming the lights, doing something calm and relaxing to facilitate good sleep, good deep sleep.
00:31:26.880 -->
00:31:29.440Um, I think would be more beneficial.
00:31:29.440 -->
00:31:34.319Your brain will be processing information from throughout the course of that day.
00:31:34.319 -->
00:31:43.599I would be interested though in taking a look, and I would have to look that up and check it to see if there's an optimal time between when you finish learning and when and when you sleep.
00:31:43.599 -->
00:31:49.119But like you say, the the last minute shuffle isn't going to optimize the consolidation.
00:31:49.119 -->
00:31:52.799It's the sleep itself that's going to optimise everything that you did throughout that day.
00:31:52.799 -->
00:32:09.359And I often think we, you know, we can zoom on in and take a look all the way at in at individual neurons and networks and connections between neurons or synapses and see this, see this kind of happening whereby we can see the activation of a circuit or synapses in the brain.
00:32:09.359 -->
00:32:19.119It's almost as if, kind of like during the day, you're kind of sculpting them with clay, and then when you're sleeping, it's kind of firing that and consolidating that memory in there.
00:32:19.119 -->
00:32:28.160We know if you are kept awake after you've learned something, you know, we've we can do a clinical trial, half the people are kept awake, half the people are allowed to sleep.
00:32:28.160 -->
00:32:31.440The people who sleep will have a far better memory of what they've learned.
00:32:31.440 -->
00:32:37.119We can see that even with the studies that have been done of napping as well in the research lab.
00:32:37.119 -->
00:32:41.440So, you know, learn how to navigate through this maze, have a 20-minute nap.
00:32:41.440 -->
00:32:44.640You'll have a better memory than the people who didn't nap afterwards.
00:32:44.640 -->
00:32:48.400But the gap between learning and sleep, I'm not sure about.
00:32:48.400 -->
00:32:57.359I think you would be better off before sleep, getting ready to go to sleep and following best sleep hygiene practice versus cramming.
00:32:57.759 -->
00:33:04.799One of the important sleep hygiene practices we we all talk about is trying to reduce screen time on a lot of people's radar.
00:33:04.799 -->
00:33:20.880You you mentioned the impact of tech distraction more generally through through the day, and and and that's uh you know, when I particularly when I talk to to parents of of today's generation of students, that is perhaps more than anything else the number one concern I think a lot of parents have about their students' habits.
00:33:20.880 -->
00:33:35.920You mentioned this earlier, but but but maybe just could could you maybe just expand a little bit on you know what are what are some of the big kind of drawbacks when we are creating these kind of distractions for our brain and we're having to, as you described it, shine our attentional torchlight from one thing back to the other and back again.
00:33:36.400 -->
00:33:38.480It's it's it's a quagma.
00:33:38.480 -->
00:33:43.359We luckily here in Australia we're about to embark on a nationwide experiment.
00:33:43.359 -->
00:33:45.039So it's gonna be very interesting.
00:33:45.039 -->
00:33:54.960I think under 16s have got perhaps about five more weeks before the country turns off social media for them all, exactly how that's gonna roll out.
00:33:54.960 -->
00:33:59.359And there's some detractors um who think, well, the kids will find a way around it.
00:33:59.359 -->
00:34:04.079I think it's a little bit like having a speed limit on the road or a or a drinking age.
00:34:04.079 -->
00:34:10.639You know, sure some people speed and some people will buy alcohol underage and drink, but it's let's put a safeguard in.
00:34:10.639 -->
00:34:17.119We don't know what the outcome is going to be here in Australia, but we've got a big experiment that's that's about to happen.
00:34:17.119 -->
00:34:21.920I personally think perhaps we're gonna see more upsides than we see downsides.
00:34:21.920 -->
00:34:25.599People argue that it's not an evidence-based intervention.
00:34:25.599 -->
00:34:27.840We'll be getting the evidence for that.
00:34:27.840 -->
00:34:39.039That is specifically around lots of different types of social media that the government is saying you have to, you know, have age validation to be able to access various um kind of apps, everything from Facebook to Twitter to YouTube, etc.
00:34:39.039 -->
00:34:40.719So that's gonna be interesting.
00:34:40.719 -->
00:34:45.599We'll come back in a year and see what Aussie, see how Aussie kids are doing versus the rest of the world.
00:34:45.599 -->
00:34:52.960I mean, I suppose there's the social media apps, but there's also just even the presence of this phone.
00:34:52.960 -->
00:35:11.840And what I have started to do, and I I I think perhaps based on what I understand, I'll talk about what I've been doing, my experience recently, because it's kind of nicer to talk in in real-world terms versus sort of theoretically, because I think we all understand how incredibly salient um this device has been.
00:35:11.840 -->
00:35:25.119I do a lot of research and work and teaching around women's brain health and been talking for a number of years about this concept of baby brain, whereby when you have a new baby, lots of women report that they feel like their brain isn't functioning properly.
00:35:25.119 -->
00:35:28.800You know, they've got brain fog, they can't pay attention, they're forgetful.
00:35:28.800 -->
00:35:41.360And part of that is what our brains are doing is during the course of pregnancy and then parenting, it's almost as if our entire attention is biologically zoomed into focus on the baby.
00:35:41.360 -->
00:35:49.119And when you focus solely on kind of one thing, your flashlight is tune, you know, focused solely on the baby, you're filtering a lot of information out.
00:35:49.119 -->
00:35:52.559And what you remember depends on what information you take in and what you filter out.
00:35:52.559 -->
00:35:59.360So there's nothing neurologically wrong with mothers' brains, it is just that their attention is kind of consumed by the baby.
00:35:59.360 -->
00:36:12.320I'm starting to feel a little bit like we're carrying phones around in our hands and our arms as if they are like this precious little baby that we possibly couldn't put down because something terrible might happen to us.
00:36:12.320 -->
00:36:22.559By virtue of constantly consuming information that's just streaming in from our phones, where and I even see, and I see this in adults.
00:36:22.559 -->
00:36:27.599I go to my gym class, I purposefully leave my phone in my locker, and I go in.
00:36:27.599 -->
00:36:41.039And before the gym class, people used to kind of, and you know, there's just loads of parents, you know, people my age in the gym class, and I'll be like there doing my stretches, like trying to catch someone's eye for a chat, and every, even every adult in the room is just sitting looking at their phone.
00:36:41.039 -->
00:36:42.159I'm like, leave them behind.
00:36:42.159 -->
00:36:47.360So our attention is consumed by these devices like a baby.
00:36:47.360 -->
00:36:58.480And by virtue of tuning our information into what is here and tuning information, all of the other information out, we can only process that information that we take in.
00:36:58.480 -->
00:37:07.119What I had started to notice over the last year or so was I would have a conversation, say, with one of my boys, and then a few weeks later I might ask them a question.
00:37:07.119 -->
00:37:11.039They'll be like, we just it'll be like, bruh, mum, we talked about that.
00:37:11.039 -->
00:37:14.000Or I remember one of them recently, I said, Oh, I haven't seen those shoes.
00:37:14.000 -->
00:37:17.199And he was like, I showed you them when I bought them home from the shop.
00:37:17.199 -->
00:37:19.440And I was like, oh yeah, I completely forgot.
00:37:19.440 -->
00:37:22.079I felt, and I thought, am I losing my mind?
00:37:22.079 -->
00:37:23.679Why am I forgetting everything?
00:37:23.679 -->
00:37:30.880And then I realized so much of my time during the day, I was listening to podcasts.
00:37:30.880 -->
00:37:42.480Now I'm listening, I'm not even, I'm it's not like I'm watching YouTube, but so much of my attention was being consumed by this information that was streaming in from my phone.
00:37:42.480 -->
00:37:48.239One, I was thinking I was paying attention to my kids or a conversation I had.
00:37:48.239 -->
00:37:51.119But then as soon as I'd stopped that conversation, I was going back.
00:37:51.119 -->
00:37:54.400And my brain was not even processing any of the conversations I had.
00:37:54.400 -->
00:37:59.199It was almost as if all of my attention was being consumed by this digital media.
00:37:59.199 -->
00:38:06.000And we can only process the information we take in, and we can't process the information that we filter out.
00:38:06.000 -->
00:38:20.960And so I started thinking perhaps it's not something wrong with my brain, perhaps it's a little bit like baby brain, whereby I'm focusing all my attention on this silly little device and whatever podcast I'm listening to, and I'm not paying attention to the rest of the world around me.
00:38:20.960 -->
00:38:35.519So I have started to do, I I heard this kind of this idea recently that when you're at home in the house to plug your phone in and treat it like an old-fashioned phone that used to be attached to a wall, which is what I've been doing.
00:38:35.519 -->
00:38:38.559I don't need to walk around with it in my pocket the whole time and panic.
00:38:38.559 -->
00:38:47.840I plug it in, I leave it plugged in, and if someone really wants to get hold of me, they'll ring and then I'll walk over to it and answer it like it's an old-fashioned phone in the wall.
00:38:47.840 -->
00:39:11.679And I've tried to just have more downtime where I'm not constantly bombarding myself with information to see if that frees me up to one, have more conversations and in real-world interactions and two process those after they've happened, instead of it's going directly back to listening to whoever's yapping in my ear with a podcast.
00:39:11.679 -->
00:39:13.360So I've started to do that.
00:39:13.360 -->
00:39:19.840I had also read an article, uh, a a a couple of research studies that had been done.
00:39:19.840 -->
00:39:32.159One was an individual research study and one was a meta-analysis looking at multiple research studies of this, looking at the role of mobile phones and distraction and where our attention goes and working memory.
00:39:32.159 -->
00:39:41.440And you've probably talked about working memory before on on this podcast, which is just the kind of the processing of the information that's kind of in your mind's eye at any moment in time.
00:39:41.440 -->
00:39:52.400It's the the processing of information of a conversation, or perhaps, you know, running through a shopping list in your mind, or doing some mental maths, or just kind of processing information that's on top of mind.
00:39:52.400 -->
00:39:58.000And working memory is very much determined by the funnel of information we take and by our attention.
00:39:58.000 -->
00:39:59.760And this study was doing tests of working.
00:39:59.760 -->
00:40:04.239Working memory in the presence or absence of someone's mobile phone.
00:40:04.239 -->
00:40:12.000And they found that even if someone had a mobile phone on the desk next to them, and people, you know how people like turn them face down?
00:40:12.000 -->
00:40:23.760Even if it was off and face down on the desk next to them, their working memory dropped versus it being in another room where it was, you know, out of sight, out of mind type thing.
00:40:23.760 -->
00:40:42.320Mobile phones have become so incredibly salient to our brains, no matter who we are, that even when they are next to us turned off, our attention is we've kind of almost got these kind of our attention goes towards our phone and then we go, oh no, it didn't need to, it's off, come back here, and then goes towards our phone, and then it and then it comes back.
00:40:42.320 -->
00:40:52.480And even that kind of micro distraction of knowing the phone is there and could potentially say hello to us, drops our working memory capacity.
00:40:52.480 -->
00:40:55.760And that's solely due to attention.
00:40:55.760 -->
00:41:04.800And so I've kind of tried to take on board, you know, my my personal experiences with what I felt was some problem with memory, but I think was just attention.
00:41:04.800 -->
00:41:06.639I'm turning the phone in.
00:41:06.639 -->
00:41:07.199Yeah.
00:41:07.599 -->
00:41:08.320It's really interesting.
00:41:08.320 -->
00:41:23.920I I hear quite a lot of conversation about the like importance of avoiding distraction when you're trying to work and and and you know, best practice if you're trying to clear working memory, maximise thinking capacity, get your work done faster and with fewer mistakes, you know, phone goes off, it's out of the room, and then we get it done efficiently.
00:41:23.920 -->
00:41:26.960I think it's a really interesting, I mean it's a really, really important point.
00:41:26.960 -->
00:41:29.039And you know, you you've got such a great take on it.
00:41:29.039 -->
00:41:34.719I love the idea of the phone being like a human baby, and as a fairly recent father, I can I can relate to that.
00:41:35.119 -->
00:41:43.519Yes, I feel like we pathologise ourselves when it's not it's not something wrong with our brain.
00:41:43.519 -->
00:41:44.480It's a total of it.
00:41:44.639 -->
00:41:54.719And I think that this I think this idea of of kind of carving out some silent space for your brain to just think and process in other parts of the day is so interesting.
00:41:54.719 -->
00:42:12.000And you know, I think I I firmly believe that when if you've got some kind of if if you're kind of trying to come up with ideas, if you're trying to be creative, if you've got any form of writing to do, even if it's like an application for a university or a job, like you have writing to do, like you come up with ideas, you create things, and it's so often in that white space in the day.
00:42:12.000 -->
00:42:14.239It's the classic thing, you know, you have a great idea in the shower.
00:42:14.239 -->
00:42:15.119Why do you have it in the shower?
00:42:15.119 -->
00:42:18.000Because it's the only time when you're like listening to something.
00:42:18.320 -->
00:42:21.440You take your phone into the shower, and I know my boys will take the phone into their shower.
00:42:21.440 -->
00:42:25.440Sometimes I can hear I hear my like older son will be having conversations with his mate.
00:42:25.440 -->
00:42:29.920The shower's going, you know, he's in there for half an hour and he's chatting away to everyone.
00:42:29.920 -->
00:42:32.639I also started doing when I'm driving as well.
00:42:32.639 -->
00:42:42.079Like if I've because my boys are, you know, in the middle of exams and I'm like full mum mode, driving them to and fro, just like doing everything, doing all of the things.
00:42:42.079 -->
00:42:44.000I'm spending a bit of time in the car.
00:42:44.000 -->
00:42:49.119And I used to be like, I'll put a podcast on, like, you know, they'd get out of the car and I'd have a podcast on.
00:42:49.119 -->
00:42:51.519And now I'm like, I'm not even turning the radio on in the car.
00:42:51.519 -->
00:43:03.440I'm trying to also use that as like quiet just to like get rid of the white noise and just see if I feel like I'm thinking better and I'm having better memories of the conversations we had.
00:43:03.440 -->
00:43:06.480Because I was feeling like I was blanking on conversations.
00:43:06.480 -->
00:43:12.239And I'm and I feel like I'm noticing a difference, but I it's hard that's not objective, that's subjective.
00:43:12.559 -->
00:43:13.199A good study to do.
00:43:13.199 -->
00:43:13.920It's a good study to do.
00:43:13.920 -->
00:43:14.559Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:43:14.559 -->
00:43:16.320I think it'd be fascinating.
00:43:16.320 -->
00:43:17.119Well, I'm curious.
00:43:17.119 -->
00:43:19.440So you mentioned your your your your boys a couple of times.
00:43:19.440 -->
00:43:19.760Yeah.
00:43:19.760 -->
00:43:32.400Sarah, what what perhaps some of the things we've talked about already, but is is there anything else a uh neuroscientist mum tells her children that you uh you know, messages you've tried to get across that um that might be interesting to share?
00:43:33.039 -->
00:43:39.599I don't think it matters what kind of descriptor you put in front of mum, they will not pay any attention.
00:43:39.599 -->
00:43:43.199So no neuroscience has been absorbed from my sons.
00:43:43.199 -->
00:43:51.119And what I have tried to do is modulate my own parenting behaviour based on my understanding of their of their brains.
00:43:51.119 -->
00:43:54.239So I know a classic example I often give.
00:43:54.239 -->
00:43:57.840This is for the parents out there who have perhaps absorbed a bit of neuroscience.
00:43:57.840 -->
00:44:06.480I remember, you know, my and I've always said to them, and my oldest one's driving now, but I would be like, no matter where, when, any time of the day, you call me, I'll come and pick you up.
00:44:06.480 -->
00:44:07.599No questions asked.
00:44:07.599 -->
00:44:10.400And that started, he was on the bus on the way home.
00:44:10.400 -->
00:44:11.360I'd get a phone call.
00:44:11.360 -->
00:44:12.880Can you come pick me up from the bus stop?
00:44:12.880 -->
00:44:14.639It's only like about a kilometre walk.
00:44:14.639 -->
00:44:16.159But it'd be like, I'm just too tired.
00:44:16.159 -->
00:44:18.000I just, can you just come and get me?
00:44:18.000 -->
00:44:24.800And then, you know, I'd come home, drive him home, he'd smash out some wheat bicks, go upstairs, come back down, grab his surfboard, and be like, Oh, I'm off.
00:44:24.800 -->
00:44:26.239I'm going for a surf with my mates.
00:44:26.239 -->
00:44:27.679And I'm like, Well, do you want me to drive you?
00:44:27.679 -->
00:44:30.880And it's like, no, no, I'm fine.
00:44:30.880 -->
00:44:47.119And that my neuroscience understanding isn't that he's selfish and he's using me, is that I know what's driving him is he's tired at the end of the day, but the drive and the motivation has come from, you know, going and hanging out with the friends, and you know, you kind of become re-energized.
00:44:47.119 -->
00:44:53.760And so just understanding that this is a natural part of being human and it's not selfishness on his part.
00:44:53.760 -->
00:44:56.400It's just, I just observe and watch.
00:44:56.400 -->
00:45:08.159That said, I feel like over the years I've drip fed perhaps surreptitiously or implicitly information about how to do exams and how to study.
00:45:08.159 -->
00:45:14.960And particularly my oldest son, who is very focused, appears to have been pulling that off very, very well.
00:45:14.960 -->
00:45:18.719And I also think the messaging has come through his his school.
00:45:18.719 -->
00:45:20.079Their school is amazing.
00:45:20.079 -->
00:45:22.559They've taught the kids, they've taught the kids well.
00:45:22.559 -->
00:45:28.880So I know that uh what a couple of things that my oldest son has told me that he's he has done over the course of the year.
00:45:28.880 -->
00:45:31.840One, he started using, I don't know what that you call them anki cards.
00:45:31.840 -->
00:45:35.519It's like an online flashcard program, and you you might be more familiar with that.
00:45:35.760 -->
00:45:39.519It's one of the big three that our listeners use along with Rainscape and Quizlet.
00:45:39.840 -->
00:45:43.119Yeah, and he said to me, Oh, it's because it facilitates spaced learning.
00:45:43.119 -->
00:45:46.239And I was like, I know what spaced learning is because I'm a neuroscientist.
00:45:46.239 -->
00:45:50.719I didn't say that, I just thought that, because you don't say things like that to your son if you're a their mother.
00:45:50.719 -->
00:45:58.000But essentially he has used space learning and he said he has streak, his his ankey streak has has lasted all year.
00:45:58.000 -->
00:46:02.320He was he was runner up to the ducks in his high school, so it's clearly paid off.
00:46:02.320 -->
00:46:10.480So he's used anke cards and has used that space learning, and I think there's an algorithm in it that figures out how spaced out the gap will be.
00:46:10.480 -->
00:46:12.239I don't know exactly how it runs.
00:46:12.239 -->
00:46:14.079And then practice exams.
00:46:14.079 -->
00:46:20.880And we know both of these are just basic neuroscience principles, spaced learning and then practice and repetition.
00:46:20.880 -->
00:46:22.800Nothing new under the sun.
00:46:22.800 -->
00:46:26.559This is 100% validated by neuroscience and it and it pays off.
00:46:26.559 -->
00:46:29.039And so he does a lot of practice.
00:46:29.039 -->
00:46:31.440He probably does more practice exams than most people.
00:46:31.760 -->
00:46:38.400You dropped a nice little nugget when we were chatting a couple of weeks ago about training with a battery on your pen, which I've never thought of before.
00:46:38.400 -->
00:46:38.880I loved that.
00:46:39.119 -->
00:46:39.440Yeah.
00:46:39.440 -->
00:46:45.599Yeah, because you know, you you you learned, you know, it's you need to work the muscle, you know, in your arms.
00:46:45.599 -->
00:46:53.599And so him and his friends tape, and I and I guess batteries because they're like small and heavy and long, so it's not weighing one end of the pen down.
00:46:53.599 -->
00:46:55.280And so you've got a really, really heavy pen.
00:46:55.280 -->
00:46:58.480So all of the practice writing is done with a very, very heavy pen.
00:46:58.480 -->
00:47:01.039And then when you go into the exam, it's a much lighter weight.
00:47:01.039 -->
00:47:02.880So they do, so they do that.
00:47:02.880 -->
00:47:06.480So he has done a lot, a lot, a lot of practice exams.
00:47:06.480 -->
00:47:11.440And for the longer written exams, maths is pretty easy to mark yourself, right?
00:47:11.440 -->
00:47:15.519Um, and he has a whole spreadsheet of the exams.
00:47:15.519 -->
00:47:22.239There's a metacognition column in there, thinking about before he's marked it, what did I think about this exam?
00:47:22.239 -->
00:47:23.679What was my kind of vibe?
00:47:23.679 -->
00:47:26.239I think he's called the column vibe, to be honest.
00:47:26.239 -->
00:47:32.800You know, thinking about thinking, thinking about feeling, what and then and then a mark and then another, and then another reflection.
00:47:32.800 -->
00:47:39.199So he's kind of going through that process of not just practice but self-reflection.
00:47:39.199 -->
00:47:53.360The exams, which are the longer written form where it's a bit harder to mark yourself, he gets feedback from the teachers, but he also uses Chat GPT and AI and has trained that up over the course of the last year.
00:47:53.360 -->
00:47:56.480Um, and we've got a shared family paid account.
00:47:56.480 -->
00:48:03.840Um, and he'll put exam, put essays in that and then ask it based on this, these marking criteria, which it's been trained up on.
00:48:03.840 -->
00:48:08.239Mark this, tell me, you know, where I could improve, etc.
00:48:08.239 -->
00:48:14.000And he's kind of getting that that feedback that way with that form of learning.
00:48:14.000 -->
00:48:34.719And so all of those are those so sort of those skills, the space repetition, the practice, practice, practice, and then the iteration with the feedback and then self-reflection without flagellation, without I'm terrible, you know, he's also very, very, very emotionally regulated and very cool and very calm.
00:48:34.719 -->
00:48:39.119And and and I guess that's a nervous, he's been like that since he was born.
00:48:39.119 -->
00:48:49.039He's very regulated, which I think means that you can have good, strong cognitive control, you can eliminate the distractions, you can choose where to focus attention.
00:48:49.039 -->
00:48:55.920Different, different kids, different people are going to have different kinds of levels of that ability to cognitively control.
00:48:55.920 -->
00:48:59.119And I'm just focusing on this now and ignoring other things.
00:48:59.119 -->
00:49:24.480And so I think putting if that is a harder task for you, to put the frameworks in place, and that may be putting the phone in another room in the house, you know, telling your friends I'm offline now for a while, just leave me alone, don't distract me, or going into a library or a public space as well, where there's a social pressure to not be talking and yapping and on a phone the whole time.
00:49:24.480 -->
00:49:27.119You're surrounded by other people who are doing the same thing as you.
00:49:27.440 -->
00:49:27.760Fantastic.
00:49:27.760 -->
00:49:29.199Well, that's great, great examples.
00:49:29.199 -->
00:49:35.280And uh yeah, lots lots of uh lots of I mean, particularly the the metacognition and self-reflection, I think, actually.
00:49:35.280 -->
00:49:45.440That's that's that's um you know, we we've talked a lot about the the science of learning and the the the spaced learning, the the the retrieval practice, uh which of course anchor's combining.
00:49:45.440 -->
00:49:50.480But I really like that uh that sort of self-reflection, that metacognition album as well.
00:49:50.480 -->
00:49:54.320I think that's uh it's a really real kind of maturity as a nice, nice, nice twist.
00:49:54.320 -->
00:49:55.039I I like that a lot.
00:49:55.119 -->
00:49:56.800That's the vibe.
00:49:56.800 -->
00:49:58.000What was the vibe and why?
00:49:58.000 -->
00:49:59.119What was the vibe?
00:49:59.119 -->
00:50:00.159Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:50:00.320 -->
00:50:01.119Yeah, I like it.
00:50:01.119 -->
00:50:01.599I like it.
00:50:01.599 -->
00:50:03.360Um and no judgment on that, you know?
00:50:03.360 -->
00:50:06.400Like some days the vibe might be good and some days it might be a bit of a struggle.
00:50:06.400 -->
00:50:07.039And that's okay.
00:50:07.039 -->
00:50:13.840And like you're just, you know, it's it's the same idea with the kind of the the meditation, you know, you're just observing the thought and not sort of chasing the thought again.
00:50:13.840 -->
00:50:14.320Yeah.
00:50:14.800 -->
00:50:24.159So learning, if you're reflecting on that process, then when you're in the actual exam, you can keep control of your emotions.
00:50:24.159 -->
00:50:26.880Because you've kind of practiced that too.
00:50:26.880 -->
00:50:30.000I think we think we can't practice our emotions in advance.
00:50:30.000 -->
00:50:37.360We can practice how to do calculus, we can practice physics, we can practice an English essay, we can reread Macbeth or whatever.
00:50:37.360 -->
00:50:42.320But learning and practicing emotional regulation in advance too.
00:50:42.320 -->
00:50:54.320Even if you're visualizing being in an exam, you know, you'll visualize that you're kind of rehearsing, you've rehearsed how to do the exam, but you can rehearse your emotional response in advance as well.
00:50:54.320 -->
00:50:58.639What happens if question 13 is much harder than what I thought it would be?
00:50:58.639 -->
00:51:02.559Am I just going to crash out, freak out, run out of the exam?
00:51:02.559 -->
00:51:12.559Or am I going to have an emotional strategy that I can deploy to keep me calm so I can, you know, carry on with the next few questions?
00:51:12.559 -->
00:51:21.599So I think rehearsing your emotional regulation as an exam strategy is as important as just learning the content.
00:51:21.920 -->
00:51:26.480Yeah, that's a really, really important thing to think about and I think underthought about.
00:51:26.480 -->
00:51:28.960So, so definitely important thing.
00:51:28.960 -->
00:51:35.920So it's been so, so fascinating to talk, and you've shared so many fascinating and practical nuggets with us today.
00:51:35.920 -->
00:51:37.360Really, really interesting stuff.
00:51:37.360 -->
00:51:37.920Thank you.
00:51:37.920 -->
00:51:40.719Uh, we've we've covered so many different things.
00:51:40.719 -->
00:51:42.639I hope it's a memory attention.
00:51:42.880 -->
00:51:43.760I hope it's been useful.
00:51:44.079 -->
00:51:45.920Emotions, medical ignition, it's been wonderful.
00:51:45.920 -->
00:51:46.960It's been really, really good.
00:51:46.960 -->
00:51:55.599Listen, uh, but just before we we we head off, I just wondered if there's like one thing that you wish you had figured out a little bit sooner in your own student journey.
00:51:55.599 -->
00:51:56.880I know you were a student for quite a while.
00:51:56.880 -->
00:51:58.880Well, you know, PhDs and postdocs.
00:51:58.880 -->
00:52:10.880You know, if there's one thing that you think you would have benefited from figuring out earlier in your academic journey as a student yourself, even back to sort of high school undergraduate level, you know, what would that what would that be?
00:52:11.360 -->
00:52:22.480I completely crashed out in my final high school biology exam, so much so that I had a panic attack and I ran out of the exam and didn't sit it, which was very melodramatic.
00:52:22.480 -->
00:52:32.480Because back in the 90s, we didn't get taught how to learn, we didn't get taught how to regulate our emotions, we didn't get taught how to manage stress.
00:52:32.480 -->
00:52:35.440We weren't even taught to do practice exams.
00:52:35.440 -->
00:52:38.880It was just go away and learn the content and then you were just kind of winging it.
00:52:38.880 -->
00:52:46.400There's a lot of benefits and upsides to drowning out all of the a lot of the noise and just focusing in on what to do.
00:52:46.400 -->
00:52:51.679But I was one of those sort of type A overachieving girls.
00:52:51.679 -->
00:53:04.639For some re I I think I just overworked myself and just placed far too much importance on how to um that that my marks would define my entire life and and that was kind of it.
00:53:04.639 -->
00:53:09.119So I had a terrible end of high school, what you I suppose you would say A levels.
00:53:09.119 -->
00:53:10.159We did five subjects.
00:53:10.159 -->
00:53:16.320I did English calculus, maths or calculus, chemistry, biology, and art.
00:53:16.320 -->
00:53:18.079I did terribly in art.
00:53:18.079 -->
00:53:19.840I'd always done really well in art.
00:53:19.840 -->
00:53:23.599I did terribly in my final portfolio.
00:53:23.599 -->
00:53:26.000We got it reassessed, it was still terrible.
00:53:26.000 -->
00:53:29.840Um, it took me years to recover from that bad mark.
00:53:29.840 -->
00:53:34.000Final exam out of the other four that I sat was biology.
00:53:34.000 -->
00:53:42.320And I sat down in the exam and started flicking through the paper and started feeling like I was having a panic attack.
00:53:42.320 -->
00:53:47.280And I had no tools, no skills, no understanding of what was happening.
00:53:47.280 -->
00:53:49.519And so I stood up and ran out of the room.
00:53:49.519 -->
00:53:54.559And then we had to go to the doctor and get, you know, assessed and get a compensation mark, etc.
00:53:54.559 -->
00:53:54.960etc.
00:53:54.960 -->
00:54:02.079Luckily, I was coming first in the class, so I just got whoever was coming second, they gave me a mark slightly above his or something.
00:54:02.079 -->
00:54:17.199And I think now that wouldn't have happened because that was the 90s and now it's 2025, and we understand so much more about just that sort of mental not me, and I don't think it was a mental health problem, it was just a panic attack.
00:54:17.199 -->
00:54:19.519Um, but we understand a whole a whole lot more.
00:54:19.519 -->
00:54:21.199I literally crashed out.
00:54:21.199 -->
00:54:25.679I tell my sons about it now, and they often like to laugh at me about it.
00:54:25.679 -->
00:54:29.519But I don't think that would have happened now because I would have known what to do in advance.
00:54:29.519 -->
00:54:30.400And that's what I say.
00:54:30.400 -->
00:54:36.000You can rehearse and practice strategies in advance of if you think that that's going to happen to you.
00:54:36.000 -->
00:54:45.280It took me a very, very, very long time to recover emotionally from the memory of that because I was so shamed.
00:54:45.280 -->
00:54:47.360I was so shameful and so embarrassing.
00:54:47.360 -->
00:54:49.360Um, it was very cringe.
00:54:49.360 -->
00:54:51.679But, you know, it happened and it was fine.
00:54:51.679 -->
00:54:54.000I still ended up getting a scholarship to Oxford.
00:54:54.000 -->
00:55:06.159Um, so you know, I recovered, but I think having the stress reduction tools, the emotional understanding, the metacognition, just the ability to be self-aware, which we didn't have in the 90s.
00:55:06.159 -->
00:55:08.559I don't know what we were doing in the 90s, honestly.
00:55:08.559 -->
00:55:09.760Not a lot.
00:55:09.760 -->
00:55:14.320So just my experience, word of advice.
00:55:14.320 -->
00:55:19.599Pay, you know, self-awareness and have some tools in your tool belt if you start to panic.
00:55:19.840 -->
00:55:20.960Great advice, Sarah.
00:55:20.960 -->
00:55:22.000Thank you so much.
00:55:22.000 -->
00:55:28.960And if anyone is interested in learning more about your your world and your your work, um, where can we find out more?
00:55:29.199 -->
00:55:34.400Yeah, well, it's dr sarahmakai.com is probably the best place to go.
00:55:34.400 -->
00:55:40.320And I've got I do I run professional development training courses in neuroscience and brain health.
00:55:40.320 -->
00:55:43.599I've got some books, I've got I go on lots of podcasts.
00:55:43.599 -->
00:55:46.239So that's kind of like the window in, the portal in.
00:55:46.239 -->
00:55:47.920And um come and say hi.
00:55:48.320 -->
00:55:49.440Oh, well, thank you so much.
00:55:49.440 -->
00:55:50.960It's been really fun to chat.
00:55:50.960 -->
00:55:53.920Uh, and thank you for sharing so many fascinating and interesting things with us today.
00:55:53.920 -->
00:55:58.480And I'll I'll I'll conclude today by wishing your boys every success with their academic journey from here.
00:55:58.639 -->
00:55:59.360Um Thank you.
00:55:59.599 -->
00:56:00.079Thank you so much.
00:56:00.079 -->
00:56:01.679Um, we'll look forward to talking soon.
00:56:01.679 -->
00:56:07.199Well, thanks again, Sarah, for such a wide-ranging, fascinating and very practical conversation.
00:56:07.199 -->
00:56:13.119Please do do as always see the links in the show notes if you'd like to explore any of Sarah's work.
00:56:13.119 -->
00:56:15.840Give a copy of her books and so forth.
00:56:15.840 -->
00:56:18.639We'll link all that up so it's nice and easy for you to find.
00:56:18.639 -->
00:56:24.559And as always, I'd encourage you to take a moment to reflect on what you're gonna take from today's episode.
00:56:24.559 -->
00:56:26.079What are you gonna take from all this?
00:56:26.079 -->
00:56:27.360What are you gonna apply?
00:56:27.360 -->
00:56:33.679If there's just one idea, might be a brand new idea, it might be a nudge to get back into something you've been doing before.
00:56:33.679 -->
00:56:41.840You know, one practical point from today's conversation that you want to start applying, you know, right away, today, this week, what would that thing be?
00:56:41.840 -->
00:56:52.320And why not take a moment, once you've decided what that thing is, to drop it in the comments section if you've got access to a comment section, you know, particularly if you're listening, for example, on Spotify or on YouTube.
00:56:52.320 -->
00:57:03.679It's a great way if you if you have that comment, it's a great way to make sure that you can get the most value yourself and are taking action on the big ideas that you learn here on the podcast.
00:57:03.679 -->
00:57:05.519And also looking at those responses.
00:57:05.519 -->
00:57:14.800This is also really useful feedback for me, helps me understand the areas that people find most useful, and also helps me plan future content for you all accordingly.
00:57:14.800 -->
00:57:25.360Speaking of future content, as promised, I'll just close today with a very brief tease on a little of what's to come through the season over the next few weeks here on the podcast.
00:57:25.360 -->
00:57:37.599So, as I mentioned back in the intro, this interview with Sarah, in essence, forms uh effectively a bit of an introduction and an overview to the next several weeks of interview episodes here on the podcast.
00:57:37.599 -->
00:57:47.039And we've got a range of excellent, really top-tier guests lined up to dive deeper into many of the key issues we have explored in today's overview.
00:57:47.039 -->
00:57:53.760So, to give you a little bit of a taste of what's to come, they're going to include a top researcher and author on emotional regulation.
00:57:53.760 -->
00:58:01.039We've got a former stunt man and US Army advisor who's become a leading expert on performance under high pressure.
00:58:01.039 -->
00:58:01.840We've got Dr.
00:58:01.840 -->
00:58:07.360Piers Steele, who is one of the top top academics in the world of procrastination research.
00:58:07.360 -->
00:58:25.519He's amassed over 29,000 academic citations, so he's sort of a super respected academic, uh, and has also written very lucidly, uh, writes very entertainingly and has become very respected for his sort of groundbreaking research and uh advice on procrastination, particularly the book The Procrastination Equation.
00:58:25.519 -->
00:58:28.559I think you're all really going to enjoy that particular episode.
00:58:28.559 -->
00:58:36.960Uh so I'm going to continue a pattern I've used in the past of alternating those longer form interviews with our guests over the next few weeks.
00:58:36.960 -->
00:58:55.119Uh, and then in the alternate weeks, I'll do a short solo mini episode, uh, just a little bite-sized tip or idea from me that you can apply right away, or perhaps a little pep talk uh to help you stay the course and either get motivated or stay calm or stay consistent and ultimately achieve your goals.
00:58:55.119 -->
00:58:58.000So I really hope you enjoy what's to come.
00:58:58.000 -->
00:59:04.480And I'm always trying to step up the quality of both the content and the production that we're offering you here on the podcast.
00:59:04.480 -->
00:59:10.159And I've been working very hard over the last six months or so to line up the season that's coming up over the next few weeks.
00:59:10.159 -->
00:59:13.519And I really hope you like the sound of what's uh in store for you.
00:59:13.519 -->
00:59:21.039I just wanted to say that uh, you know, very, very grateful to those who have been financially supporting the show through our Patreon since we launched it last summer.
00:59:21.039 -->
00:59:23.920You are helping to make all of this possible.
00:59:23.920 -->
00:59:26.239So thank you if you are already supporting the show.
00:59:26.239 -->
00:59:37.119If you are not yet and you get value from the show and would like to join those who help contribute to keeping the show running, we offer some nice supporter perks through our Patreon as well.
00:59:37.119 -->
00:59:42.000Please do check it out, examstudyexpert.com forward slash Patreon.
00:59:42.000 -->
00:59:46.719And there you can become a supporter and help us to continue to make the show you love.
00:59:46.719 -->
00:59:53.039Uh so thanks in advance, and I really look forward to welcoming you as one of our valued supporters, if you're able.
00:59:53.039 -->
00:59:59.760I do understand, of course, not everyone is in a position to support us financially, and many of you do an awful lot to support the show in other ways.
00:59:59.760 -->
01:00:07.440Too, like telling your friends, liking, sharing, rating, commenting, that is all hugely appreciated, too, and thank you for that.
01:00:07.440 -->
01:00:11.679And with that, I just wanted to say thank you once again for tuning in today.
01:00:11.679 -->
01:00:13.840It's been a joy to have your company as always.
01:00:13.840 -->
01:00:18.639I hope you found today's episode useful, and I will look forward to seeing you again next week.
01:00:18.639 -->
01:00:21.440Wishing you every success, as always, in your studies.
01:00:21.440 -->
01:00:23.679Until then, very best of luck, everyone.
01:00:23.679 -->
01:00:24.639You've got this.
01:00:25.440 -->
01:00:27.280Well, that was good, wasn't it?
01:00:27.280 -->
01:00:30.320I found myself taking notes.
01:00:30.320 -->
01:00:40.719If you need a reminder of anything from today, head to the website for a write up of this episode, as well as lots more top notch advice and resources.
01:00:40.719 -->
01:00:44.239That's uh examstudyexpert.com.
01:00:44.239 -->
01:00:46.559See you next time.
