WEBVTT
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Honey, did you ever rent this one?
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Because I just received a late notice.
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Sorry, what's that?
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Wait, are you gambling online again?
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No.
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Not at all.
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If managing the bills and your betting has become a challenge, self-excluding from online gambling or sports betting might be for you.
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Learn more at don'tregretthebet.org.
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A message from the Michigan Gaming Control Board.
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Have a gambling problem?
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Call the National Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800GAMbler.
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Be sure to subscribe to Double Down Michigan, a podcast by the Michigan Gaming Control Board to stay up to date on the latest in gaming.
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Thank you for listening.
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Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Double Down Michigan Podcast, where we're taking a closer look at issues shaping the gaming landscape here in Michigan and beyond.
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I'm Henry Williams, Executive Director of the Michigan Gaming Control Board.
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Today we're joined by Mike Mooney, founder of Choices Counseling Center in Roseville.
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Mike is a certified counselor who has dedicated his career to helping individuals and families affected by gambling addiction.
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Drawing on years of professional experience, he works with clients referred through Michigan's Problem Gambling Helpline, guiding them to recognize the impact of gambling, rebuild trust, and develop practical tools for lasting recovery.
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We're especially glad to welcome Mike back.
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He joined us a few months ago to share his personal story in a testimonial video about his own gambling addiction.
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This time, we'll focus on how he's using that experience to help others on their path to recovery.
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With the holiday season approaching, Mike will also share strategies for staying mindful, avoiding risky behaviors, and maintaining healthy boundaries during this busy time of year.
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We're excited to have him here to share his insights and advice with our listeners.
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Mike, thank you for joining us.
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Thank you.
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Can you start by telling our listeners a little about Choices Counseling Center and the work you do there?
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I was uh born and raised in Detroit, and I was raised in a household where gambling and alcohol was highly permissive.
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At one time, my father used to be a math teacher, so he really got into the numbers and things like that.
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But throughout my childhood and into my early 20s, my father spent half of his time in Las Vegas and half of his time in Detroit.
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So I developed some behavioral problems, and again, gambling was very, very permissive.
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At one time, my father actually had what appeared to be a gambling school here in Detroit.
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And what that consisted of, my father, he had lots of friends that would take like a summer vacation to Las Vegas, but before they would go, they would stop at our house for a day or two afternoon, and my dad would teach them the ins and outs of playing different card games, dice games.
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We had a roulette table, so he really got involved with educating his friends when they'd go out to Las Vegas that maybe they would uh make a few dollars.
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So I was raised in that environment, and my dad he abandoned us a few times to go out to Las Vegas, so I had some behavioral problems.
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I got into the streets of Detroit, I got into substance abuse and things like that throughout the 60s and 70s.
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Eventually, my father moved my family to Las Vegas.
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I'm the only person here in Michigan to this day.
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But anyway, so so I had some problems with law enforcement.
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I got caught up in the streets, I was gambling, using drugs.
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I got out of prison at the end of 1990.
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And in January 1991, still with the Michigan Department of Corrections, I got clean for real.
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Not just leaving the whiskey alone and go back to drinking beer or stay away from the cocaine and just smoke weed.
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I got clean for real in a 12-step program.
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Very good.
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And so I was pushing 40 years of age when this was happening.
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And so I enrolled in the University of Detroit Addiction Studies Institute in 1992, and I started working as an apprentice substance abuse therapist for an agency in Macomb County that was primarily working with the Music and Department of Corrections offender population.
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So after me being incarcerated for a while, getting cleaned, going to college, I started working with the MDOC, mostly people on parole in McComb County.
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I stayed in that agency for approximately 10 years and I became the corporate manager.
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At the same time, I was pursuing my degree in psychology, criminal psychology, through the University of Detroit.
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So after 10 years of being a corporate manager in a treatment agency, I became a limited licensed psychologist in August 2002 and took a little loan out of my house, some equity out of my house, and on a wing in a prayer, I opened up Choices Counseling Center in Roseville.
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And shortly after I opened, I put in a bid on a contract with the Michigan Department of Corrections.
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And at that time I already had a 10-year working relationship with the MDOC in Lansing, being a corporate manager.
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So I was awarded a contract to provide outpatient counseling at 2003.
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Right around that time, the neighborhood service organization here in Detroit was starting up a problem gambling helpline.
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The casinos opened just a few years before that.
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So when they started having their problem gambling helpline, I I came down and I met the people running that, and I became one of their earlier panel members with uh the Michigan Problem Gambling Treatment Program.
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So in the last uh 23 years, I got more and more and more involved with the gambling.
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And so 1995, I met a gal in recovery in Detroit.
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We went out to Las Vegas to get married.
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I wanted to get married in front of my family.
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Okay.
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I had four years clean, my wife was clean, it was a wonderful thing.
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But when we got out there and got married, I received some unexpected financial gifts from family members, wedding gifts, and things like that, and I turned around and I gambled it all away in just one day.
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So, long story short, I told my wife I take the gambling just as serious as she knew I took drinking and drugging.
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And I quit gambling in 1995.
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So over the next 15 years, I did less and less and less with alcohol and drugs, and more and more with gambling.
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One time I had a couple offices, I had secretaries and therapists and things like that working with mental health and just basically addiction.
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So choices counseling is basically uh a treatment program for addictive disorders, more so than like for depression or other mental health issues.
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I'm I'm the addictions guy.
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Okay, and interesting because um you know we talk about the 70s, 80s, you know, as you were growing up, and you talk about gambling being pervasive, you know, um in your family or it was um accessible to you.
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What type of gambling was going on?
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Because, you know, not the casinos weren't around at that point.
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Yeah, so I got involved in the street scenes, everything from rolling dice on the corner to the Friday night card games, and the truth is there was a a like a seedy side of gambling back then.
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Anytime large amounts of money easily changes hands over a tabletop, over a game, it always attracts a criminal element.
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And I got into that side of it too.
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And and and so, like most of it was like like betting on sports, and when I was in the institutions, because I was uh a son of my father in his gambling school, I was fairly good at it.
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So I gambled through the institutions and things.
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It was just a way to keep a few dollars in my pocket, and I had this belief that if you were pretty good at gambling, if you perfected a system, you could probably go through life okay without having to have a day job.
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So in my head, it was all about the streets, it's about the fast money, the easy money.
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But card games and sports was pretty much what I was involved with.
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Okay, very interesting.
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How do clients typically come to you?
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And what role does the Michigan Propaganda helpline play in connecting people to your services?
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So in May 1st, I celebrated 30 years gambling free.
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Coming up on 35 years clean and sober, but I had 30 years gambling free, and in the last 30 years, I got very, very involved with 12-step recovery across the board, drinking, drugging, gambling.
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And so I have a I'm a fairly prominent member of this Metro Detroit recovery community, so lots of people come to me through word of mouth.
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For a while I had a magnetic sign on my vehicles.
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Problem gambling, I could help with my phone number.
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So, like I was just marketing myself for a long time.
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But the the majority of my calls now probably come from the Michigan Problem Gambling Helpline.
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Okay.
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And so, and also with the Michigan Gaming Control Board, I've been on the panel to provide treatment for people that violated that disassociated persons list, that self-exclusion, they get caught, whether they can face consequences in court or they can come into a diversion program, which I facilitate.
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So I get a fair amount of people every year from the Michigan Gaming Control Board.
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I am a board member of the Michigan Association on Problem Gambling.
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And so, like, I got like a lot of different like referral sources, so to speak, but a big one is just word of mouth.
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I have people I've worked with with gambling issues now.
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I've been a gambling therapist for 28 years.
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Wow.
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Long before I started on the panel.
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Yes.
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And so lots of people that I worked with through word of mouth, family and friends, like I'm I'm pretty easy to access.
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So people pretty much know what I do.
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Okay.
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Especially in the recovering circles, the 12-step program.
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So I get a lot of referrals from that.
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Okay.
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Uh let me ask you this.
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When someone first comes to counseling for a gambling problem, what are the initial steps you take to help them recognize the impact of their gambling?
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All right, the first thing is that I I do a pretty thorough assessment.
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And so when a person comes in, gambling is not one size fits all.
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Some people are in the gambling for the stimulation, the excitement.
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Others are in the gambling for like the escape, the isolation, depending on the games that they play.
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So I need to do an assessment, first of all, to see the severity of their gambling.
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We have some testing instruments.
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One that we use is called the nods.
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It's just a brief summary to kind of like pinpoint exactly what's going on.
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I also assess to see what phase they're in.
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They may be in a phase of desperation, they may be hopeless, they may be, you know, different phases of their gambling career.
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And then I also have to kind of like get a sense as to their level of motivation.
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Are they contemplative of taking this change recovery process?
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Are they in some type of a denial?
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So you have to do an assessment a little bit.
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Are they being forced by relatives?
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Yes, and why are they coming in?
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Is this on their own or is somebody putting their foot down?
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Is this an ultimatum you get into counseling or you can't come back home?
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So you have to figure out what's bringing them into the office.
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And from there, what type of gambling they're doing, how extensive.
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Usually there's a lot of secrecy going on, too.
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So gamblers are a little bit uh uncomfortable with fully disclosing what's happening.
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So sometimes it's like a type of denial or minimization or rationalization that you have to kind of like get a handle on before you can really go forward.
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Curious on your thoughts on why do you think people are more ashamed of admitting to gambling than admitting to, you know, if they are using drugs.
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Like they admit to using drugs, but they're very hesitant to admit that they're gambling.
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All right, well, you know, the actual gambling disorder diagnosis is a major addictive disorder.
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It's up there with alcohol, up there with drugs, but to this very day, it's primarily a hidden addiction.
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So it doesn't get the press, the coverage, that alcohol and drugs.
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Everybody in this country knows we're locked in the grips of an opioid epidemic with the fentanyl, the heroin, the overdoses.
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It's been on the news a lot.
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Nobody talks about gambling to that extent.
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It's more like a hidden addiction.
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So, like, especially with the drugs, um, a lot of that is illicit.
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With gambling, everything is legal, everything is easy, convenient, socially acceptable, widely available, promoted, advertised, gambling is truly America's newest favorite pastime.
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And the general theory about gambling is that uh most people are doing very good or breaking even, no problems.
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And that's not been my experience as a gambling therapist.
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So I see the other side of the gambling problem, and a lot of times the embarrassment is that uh it doesn't it doesn't have the the coverage of like an alcohol or drug problem.
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Oftentimes, like with alcohol, a lot of times when people get sober from alcohol, a lot of times, especially with men, the first thing that happens is that they may be intoxicated driving a car to get stopped by the police, and from that that sets in motion going to court, getting a look at sobriety, you know, like getting into treatment.
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You don't get stopped by the police for gambling.
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And so so it's it's just it's under the, it flies under the wire, so to speak, in our public's attention, as truly being uh like a an addictive resort.
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It's it's more fun in games.
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It's America's newest favorite pastime.
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Because you have we would have individuals will happily tell you, I won$5,000 at the casino, but they will rarely tell you what they lost before they won the$5,000.
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Yeah, well, we have an old joke.
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How do you make a small fortune gambling?
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Easy.
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Start with the large fortune.
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So, but like like when people say like they won$5,000, um, you know, problem gambling is not that people don't win money, of course they win.
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If nobody won, nobody would gamble.
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But the mind, the mind says this, especially if there's large levels of excitement and stimulation, the more you initially win, the more you want to return and play more often.
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So the more you win, the more you play, the more you play.
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Many people cross an invisible line into the compulsive side of gambling.
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And it's been my experience, once a gambler crosses that line into compulsive gambling, technically they will never win money again.
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What they will win is simply more gambling.
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And so it's not that they don't win, it they don't stop.
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Right.
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Wow, interesting.
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Um, so trust can be a big issue for people struggling uh with gambling.
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How do you help clients rebuild trust with themselves and their loved ones?
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Well, you know, trust is is is uh a common denominator across the board with gambling.
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Lots and lots of gambling, when you get into the addictive side, it grows in darkness and secrecy.
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And so you you can't have a drinking or a drug problem too long without people in your orbit kind of detecting you're staggering, you're slurring your words.
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Gamblers have a tendency that you can't like see it like you can with the substances, so they can get away with it a lot longer.
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And sometimes gamblers are right in a household with other family members and they're unaware of the extent of the gambling.
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And so when it comes to that secrecy, a big item with with what we're talking about here is that if you have a gambler in a household and other family members are unaware of the extent of it, of course, when it does all come out, there's going to be major, major trust issues.
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So, in addition to losing money, most gamblers lose trust and they lose the respect of other family members.
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And so a big part of this recovery process is that just to even learn that you're not alone with this.
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There's many, many, many people also in what I would call recovery from a gambling disorder.
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And through peer support connections, people regain that trust.
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And like in my practice with gambling, I often bring in other family members.
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Over time, I get to know the gambler's partner, I get to know their kids and how they're doing in school.
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So, like, like it's it's it's an ongoing type of a process.
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So, one of the things that I do is that I also have a recovery group meeting on Thursday evenings.
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It's an invite-only group, but I have people that came to my program, even from the gaming control from the disassociated persons almost five years ago, and to this very day, they're still with me every week on a group that I do.
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Okay.
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And so you develop that trust by coming out of hiding, honestly, self-disclosing, trusting the process.
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Gamblers get to know us in recovery, we get to know them.
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And something positive often comes out of that.
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Okay.
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And what are some practical tools or strategies do you teach clients to maintain lasting recovery?
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All right, so you know, there's something loosely called relapse prevention.
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And there's different types of strategies and techniques that are involved with that, but I am real, real favorable with having people develop peer recovery support groups.
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Could be 12-step, could be the smart recovery.
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There's lots of other things happening.
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Some people find uh like like a Christian base, there's something called uh celebrate recovery.
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That the more you're involved with everyday people also in recovery, it's almost like like recovery on its simplest terms would be monkey see, monkey do.
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So if you're hanging around people actively staying away from gambling, it gets easier for you to not gamble too.
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So a lot of times gambling it grows in darkness and secrecy, and recovery flourishes in openness, honesty, the light of day.
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We're all on the same page here.
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Okay.
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And what are some um early intervention keys?
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Like what signs should people watch for in themselves or loved ones that may indicate a gambling problem?
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All right, so it's different for different age groups.
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If we're talking about teenagers, their warning signs may look a little bit different than somebody in their 20s or 30s or somebody a little bit older.
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But secrecy is the big one.
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Gamblers have a tendency to be kind of secretive around other family members.
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Unexplained financial loss is very, very common.
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You got a guy working full-time and yet he needs to borrow money to make his truck payment and things like that.
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And sometimes the flip side of that is unexplained wealth.
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Suddenly a gambler or somebody in the household is buying a new car, getting flat screen TVs for all the children, unexplained income and unexplained like financial distress is big signs.
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But usually a gambler, again, it's the secrecy that, you know, on that topic, if you have a gambler in a family system, say there's a guy with a wife, and the trust issues and things like that, it comes down to how does the partner eventually find out that there's a gambling problem.
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So sometimes a gambler may just have that moment of honesty breakdown and tell his wife, hey, you know, I got something to say, I've been gambling, it's kind of getting the best of me, I'm out a lot of money.
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So it's that self-disclosed honesty that gets that partner maybe part of that person's recovery network.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:24.319
On the other hand, say the wife opens up some mail and there's a foreclosure notice, right?
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:27.440
Out of nowhere, we're losing the house.
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:36.720
So sometimes the gambler is detected by being caught in something, and sometimes the partner knows when it's confessed.
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:42.880
When it's confessed, the family typically will rally around and be supportive.
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:47.359
When a gambler is caught, that's a whole different story.
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:48.240
Whole different issue.
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:49.039
A whole different story.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.319
And what does that look like, you know, as we talk about young people?
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:59.680
What does a gambling for a parent looking for signs for a young person to detect?
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:00.960
If you're gambling.
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:01.519
Well, you know.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:02.640
What would that kind of look like?
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:08.400
Oftentimes, it's real big with kids today, young people today, betting on sports.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:15.680
So sometimes it may be over enthusiastic with the sports apparel, talking about it all the time.
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:18.880
And again, sometimes it's like unexplained money.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.160
One day the kid got hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:36.480
Um, but oftentimes, like there there may even be some changes in who that person is associating with, school problems, attention problems, and and probably some positions coming up missing.
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:37.440
And the secrecy.
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:42.400
Yeah, and yeah, in some instances, yeah, things may be missing around the house, you know.
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:49.039
So like it may have a lot of similarities with somebody also using substances.
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:49.680
Okay.
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:59.200
Like with the substances, a kid would come home and he's nodding out or he's so stimulated he's up all night with the gambling, you don't see that the physical signs.
00:22:59.519 --> 00:22:59.839
Right.
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.599
And that's my next question for you.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:08.880
So, how do you address situations where clients are struggling with both gambling and other addictions or mental health challenges?
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:15.599
You know what, as an addictive disorder, problem gambling rarely travels alone.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:16.799
Rarely.
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:27.359
And so my thought is problem gambling often starts off as a pleasant distraction from emotional discomfort.
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:32.000
And so, in that sense, gambling is a symptom of a deeper disturbance.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:43.200
And the secret losing of money, your financial stability, your independence, it it looks a whole lot like a type of a like a mental health issue.
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:45.680
Let me be clear.
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:55.680
Gambling disorder is a primary diagnosis, it is not secondary to depression or poverty or relationship problems.
00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:58.319
It is a primary diagnosis.
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:03.359
And so sometimes a person may say, Well, I got this problem with gambling.
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:08.640
I got to figure out what went bumping the night years ago to put me on this path.
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:16.640
And it sounds as almost like they need to do some psychoanalytical work to figure out why they're caught up in the gambling.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:24.240
And it kind of minimizes that this culture right now, we are so top-heavy with advertising gambling.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:34.799
Every three minutes on television, there's a full Hollywood-produced commercial with celebrities and sports stars and everybody talking about gambling.
00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:44.319
And so if we promote it at the extent we're doing, we can only imagine that people are going to kind of like take it to the next level and beyond.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.279
So again, it's like America's newest favorite pastime.
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:53.519
And there's a responsible side of gambling, and then there's the predatory part of the industry.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:25:05.440
And that's kind of like the ongoing struggle that I see is like, how do we get responsible gambling separate from the predatory pathological greed part of gambling?
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:10.640
And so, you know, like lots of people they go into this almost like blindly.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:20.480
It's just a way to have a few laughs, have a little entertainment, and a year or two later they're just hopelessly caught up in something they never saw coming.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:35.839
Yeah, taking it from entertainment, just going out for evening, having a little fun, and then and and now, of course, you know, modern gaming has changed so much in the last five years with the internet platforms.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:44.000
We're up against artificial intelligence in ways that the Las Vegas casinos of yesterday never, never experienced.
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.079
It's just the access to it.
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:47.359
The access, yeah.
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:47.839
Yeah.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:55.200
Um, with the holidays approaching, Mike, um, which often bring stress and more opportunities to gamble.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:26:01.039
What advice do you give clients to stay mindful and maintain healthy boundaries during this time?
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:04.960
Well, you know, the holidays bring up something a little bit unique.
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:08.480
Oftentimes people get end-of-the-year bonuses.
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:21.839
Oftentimes people have end of the year days off of work, like the week between Thanksgiving and or the month between Thanksgiving and Christmas, there's a lot of like it's a festive time of the year.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:37.440
And so, like, if you you just have to be aware that uh there's limitations that you have to impose on yourself, and do the holiday season, you know, there's lots and lots going on in the name of recovery.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:47.359
And so, like a lot of times in different types of support groups, they band together, have like holiday meals together and things like that, and the 12-step programs and things like that.
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:54.240
So it's just important that you be aware that you're gonna may have some extra money, maybe that bonus, time off of work.
00:26:54.480 --> 00:27:10.960
The other one is that uh through the National Council on Problem Gambling some years ago, and I know Michigan is now part of it, but we had a concern about passing out scratch-off lottery tickets and gift cards and envelopes and Christmas cards and things like that.
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:23.759
And grandparents may see they can put a$20 scratch-off lottery ticket and give it to their grandson or granddaughter, nine, ten years of age, it's kind of like no harm done.
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:32.319
But sometimes, if a 10-year-old kid wins a thousand dollars, where's that kid gonna be when he's 25, 30 years of age?
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:39.759
And so, like, like gambling, because it's not recognized as an addictive disorder, it's like a hidden addiction.
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:46.079
Nobody would give their 10-year-old grandson a bottle of scotch.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:48.559
Give him a lottery ticket, what's the harm?
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:54.000
And so, like, the public perception of gambling is still pretty much recreational.
00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:04.960
And and when a person does cross into the problem side of gambling, it's not really like like talked about in our media as people that have a drinking or drug.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:22.799
In fact, when we look at, like, say, alcohol and drugs, there are well over 30 or 40 residential programs here in Michigan where a person can go and sober up, dry out 30 days, three hots in a cot, get some therapy.
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:29.599
We are in the process of trying to get a statewide gambling residential program open right now.
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:38.400
And I commend Aliyah Lucas and the people at the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services for targeting the need for more gambling treatment.
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:49.119
And so, as this gambling expands as often and as fast as it's doing, my concern is that we need to meet that expansion of gambling with treatment.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:54.079
So the more gambling is becoming popular, the more we need to invest money in the treatment.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:29:05.039
I don't want to get into the statistics and the money, but a lot of money is coming into the state of Michigan from gambling, and it's disproportionate to what's going into the treatment.
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:10.799
Yeah, and so we're making some headway on that, but uh, and other states don't even have funded gambling treatment.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:17.200
So Michigan, at least, you know, we're on the like the cutting edge of this new treatment.
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:17.759
Treatment.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:19.519
And it it needs to continue.
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:48.079
Yeah, I know the Michigan Control Board through our Internet Gaming Fund has recently, you know, we were um contributing approximately um three, four million to um gambling um addictions, and now that's increased to now some years ago in legislation some of that gambling treatment money was kind of like diverted into domestic violence and and other things like that.
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.720
You know, and that's why we that's why we just increase we just need to be aware of this.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:54.720
Yes, absolutely.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:14.400
And and and since you mentioned it, I think we do need to take this opportunity to discourage um those adults who would go to um by a young person, a minor, an underage person, a uh scratch off or a lottery ticket.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:20.480
So we do want to discourage um people from doing that because we don't want them doing that.
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:35.920
Yeah, and I'm aware that like Michigan Gaming Control, the don't regret the bad this program that you're the director of, you're doing much more now with advertisements and on uh on the safe side of gambling than ever before.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:39.440
And I I compliment you for doing that because I see everything on TV.
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:47.519
I see all the ads, all the gambling promotions and things like that, but I do see more and more of the don't regret the the bet.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:53.359
And I've been working with the gaming control board here with like Sandra Johnson and Sarah Ripe for kind of a long time.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:31:00.559
So I'm not new to what you guys are doing here, but I compliment you for uh seeing the need to make this more visible.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:01.440
Yes, thank you.
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:07.119
And there's a fine line too between recreational gambling and predatory gambling.
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:12.319
Absolutely, and being responsible and and then trying to regulate the industry, right?
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:23.359
Because we also are responsible for regulating the industry and then trying to ensure that there's um dollars to um advertise, like you said, don't regret the bet.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:23.759
Right.
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:33.440
You know, we want to um ensure that people are if they're gambling to do it responsibly, you know, as best uh we know how.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:34.559
You know.
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:49.359
Um for someone unsure whether they or someone they love um has a gambling problem, what first step would you recommend and how can they connect with Choices Counseling Center or the Problem of Gambling Helpline?
00:31:49.839 --> 00:32:00.960
Again, so Choices Counseling Center, I have a a pretty large like presence in the Metro Detroit community for gambling specific issues.
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:05.200
So my name's been out there for almost 25 years now doing what I do.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:10.559
When a person is on that, like say on the fence, do they have a problem or not?
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:20.079
Um usually it's word of mouth that may get them, like the advertisement of our uh the problem gambling helpline that is a little confusing.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:22.799
It was 1-800 gambler recently now.
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:26.640
I think it's back to 1-800-2707117.
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:40.880
But when they call that phone number, there are people that on the receiving side of that phone call that are pretty adept at asking some questions to kind of like get a to get more information out of that person.
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:48.960
But once the referral is made to me, however it's made to me, there's a couple things that we use, uh even a couple simple questions.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:52.240
Question one Are you gambling?
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:56.480
Are you spending more time gambling than you used to spend time gambling?
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.039
Are you losing money you cannot easily afford to lose?
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:03.119
Are you ever being untruthful with a loved one about the extent of your gambling?
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:08.000
So just a couple questions can kind of like get that door opened.
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:08.960
Absolutely.
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:20.720
So the 1-800 gambler is still operational, so people can still use that in addition to the the um Michigan Prime Gambling Hotline at 1-800-270-7117.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:24.960
So they can both uh citizens can reach out to both of those um numbers.
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:32.319
Um, Mike, as we um wrap up here, um is there any additional information you like to provide to the citizens?
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:36.640
Um, any other um resources you would like to um share?
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:45.519
Well, you know what, uh there's more and more coming together in the the the identifying problem gambling earlier than later now.
00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:54.640
The state of Michigan is has resources, the Michigan Gaming Control Board, the Department of Health and Human Services, the problem gambling helpline.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:05.119
And again, we're on the verge of I'm hoping this coming year we're gonna have our first out of the city of Detroit residential problem gambling treatment program.
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:13.360
And so the word is out there, and um, you know, I got a call right before I came here today, and just a little backstory.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:15.039
I get a call in March.
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:20.480
This guy has some gambling issues, the wife found out that he's losing money coming out of their joint account.
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:26.480
I only spoke with them one time, and then follow-up calls just went unanswered.
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:31.119
And out of the blue, I get a text message at 7 o'clock this morning.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:33.679
Hey, Mike, it's me again.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:34.719
I need help.
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:39.760
So before I came here, I had him connect with the the problem gambling program again.
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:45.920
And so long story short, is I'm reopening his file this afternoon, as soon as I leave this office.
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:52.559
So we're getting a lot more public exposure out here that there is help available.
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:58.159
And again, in the last 25 years that I've been doing this job, I've been a gambling therapist for 28 years.
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:03.199
The first 10-15 years, nobody even talked about problem gambling.
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:05.199
It was just a non-issue.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:14.400
And so today it's much more in the public's con and in their conscience that there is a problem side of gambling and there is help available.
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:21.840
So again, as 1-800 GAMBLER and 1-800-270-7117.
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:43.840
Mike, I would like to thank you for joining us today and sharing your insights on supporting individuals and families affected by gambling addiction, your guidance on recognizing the signs, building trust, and using practical tools for recovery is incredibly valuable, especially as we head into the holiday season when stress and temptation can be heard.
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:55.440
Give that number again.
00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:59.280
586-350-6800.
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:00.239
Great.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:14.000
For anyone interested in hearing Mike's personal story, his testimonial video can be found on the Michigan Gaming Control Board's website at Michigan.gov forward slash MGCB on the responsible gaming page of the site.
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:31.599
For anyone listening who may be struggling with gambling or know someone who is, we encourage you to reach out to Choices Counseling Center or call the Michigan Problem Gambling Hotline at 1-800-270-7117 or call 1-800-GAMBLER.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:34.960
Help is available and recovery is possible.
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:45.280
Thank you all for listening, and we hope today's conversation provides support, hope, and practical strategies for maintaining healthy habits this season and beyond.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:46.559
Mike, thanks again.
00:00:01.840 --> 00:00:03.600
Honey, did you ever rent this one?
00:00:04.000 --> 00:00:06.080
Because I just received a late notice.
00:00:06.639 --> 00:00:07.919
Sorry, what's that?
00:00:08.240 --> 00:00:10.880
Wait, are you gambling online again?
00:00:11.919 --> 00:00:12.240
No.
00:00:12.960 --> 00:00:13.919
Not at all.
00:00:14.160 --> 00:00:20.640
If managing the bills and your betting has become a challenge, self-excluding from online gambling or sports betting might be for you.
00:00:20.800 --> 00:00:23.039
Learn more at don'tregretthebet.org.
00:00:23.120 --> 00:00:25.280
A message from the Michigan Gaming Control Board.
00:00:25.519 --> 00:00:26.480
Have a gambling problem?
00:00:26.640 --> 00:00:30.000
Call the National Problem Gambling Helpline at 1-800GAMbler.
00:00:58.799 --> 00:01:05.840
Be sure to subscribe to Double Down Michigan, a podcast by the Michigan Gaming Control Board to stay up to date on the latest in gaming.
00:01:06.079 --> 00:01:07.519
Thank you for listening.
00:01:14.879 --> 00:01:25.040
Hello everyone and welcome to this episode of the Double Down Michigan Podcast, where we're taking a closer look at issues shaping the gaming landscape here in Michigan and beyond.
00:01:25.280 --> 00:01:29.359
I'm Henry Williams, Executive Director of the Michigan Gaming Control Board.
00:01:29.519 --> 00:01:34.480
Today we're joined by Mike Mooney, founder of Choices Counseling Center in Roseville.
00:01:34.799 --> 00:01:42.879
Mike is a certified counselor who has dedicated his career to helping individuals and families affected by gambling addiction.
00:01:43.120 --> 00:01:59.439
Drawing on years of professional experience, he works with clients referred through Michigan's Problem Gambling Helpline, guiding them to recognize the impact of gambling, rebuild trust, and develop practical tools for lasting recovery.
00:01:59.760 --> 00:02:02.400
We're especially glad to welcome Mike back.
00:02:02.560 --> 00:02:10.000
He joined us a few months ago to share his personal story in a testimonial video about his own gambling addiction.
00:02:10.400 --> 00:02:17.439
This time, we'll focus on how he's using that experience to help others on their path to recovery.
00:02:17.680 --> 00:02:30.319
With the holiday season approaching, Mike will also share strategies for staying mindful, avoiding risky behaviors, and maintaining healthy boundaries during this busy time of year.
00:02:30.719 --> 00:02:35.280
We're excited to have him here to share his insights and advice with our listeners.
00:02:35.680 --> 00:02:37.280
Mike, thank you for joining us.
00:02:37.599 --> 00:02:38.159
Thank you.
00:02:38.400 --> 00:02:44.400
Can you start by telling our listeners a little about Choices Counseling Center and the work you do there?
00:02:44.719 --> 00:02:52.000
I was uh born and raised in Detroit, and I was raised in a household where gambling and alcohol was highly permissive.
00:02:52.159 --> 00:02:57.439
At one time, my father used to be a math teacher, so he really got into the numbers and things like that.
00:02:57.680 --> 00:03:07.280
But throughout my childhood and into my early 20s, my father spent half of his time in Las Vegas and half of his time in Detroit.
00:03:07.520 --> 00:03:12.960
So I developed some behavioral problems, and again, gambling was very, very permissive.
00:03:13.120 --> 00:03:18.879
At one time, my father actually had what appeared to be a gambling school here in Detroit.
00:03:19.039 --> 00:03:34.639
And what that consisted of, my father, he had lots of friends that would take like a summer vacation to Las Vegas, but before they would go, they would stop at our house for a day or two afternoon, and my dad would teach them the ins and outs of playing different card games, dice games.
00:03:34.800 --> 00:03:44.319
We had a roulette table, so he really got involved with educating his friends when they'd go out to Las Vegas that maybe they would uh make a few dollars.
00:03:44.560 --> 00:03:52.000
So I was raised in that environment, and my dad he abandoned us a few times to go out to Las Vegas, so I had some behavioral problems.
00:03:52.159 --> 00:03:58.159
I got into the streets of Detroit, I got into substance abuse and things like that throughout the 60s and 70s.
00:03:58.400 --> 00:04:01.840
Eventually, my father moved my family to Las Vegas.
00:04:02.000 --> 00:04:04.960
I'm the only person here in Michigan to this day.
00:04:05.199 --> 00:04:09.439
But anyway, so so I had some problems with law enforcement.
00:04:09.520 --> 00:04:13.199
I got caught up in the streets, I was gambling, using drugs.
00:04:13.599 --> 00:04:17.360
I got out of prison at the end of 1990.
00:04:17.600 --> 00:04:24.560
And in January 1991, still with the Michigan Department of Corrections, I got clean for real.
00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:29.920
Not just leaving the whiskey alone and go back to drinking beer or stay away from the cocaine and just smoke weed.
00:04:30.079 --> 00:04:32.800
I got clean for real in a 12-step program.
00:04:33.040 --> 00:04:33.360
Very good.
00:04:33.839 --> 00:04:37.839
And so I was pushing 40 years of age when this was happening.
00:04:38.399 --> 00:04:56.079
And so I enrolled in the University of Detroit Addiction Studies Institute in 1992, and I started working as an apprentice substance abuse therapist for an agency in Macomb County that was primarily working with the Music and Department of Corrections offender population.
00:04:56.399 --> 00:05:07.120
So after me being incarcerated for a while, getting cleaned, going to college, I started working with the MDOC, mostly people on parole in McComb County.
00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:12.560
I stayed in that agency for approximately 10 years and I became the corporate manager.
00:05:12.959 --> 00:05:20.879
At the same time, I was pursuing my degree in psychology, criminal psychology, through the University of Detroit.
00:05:21.120 --> 00:05:41.519
So after 10 years of being a corporate manager in a treatment agency, I became a limited licensed psychologist in August 2002 and took a little loan out of my house, some equity out of my house, and on a wing in a prayer, I opened up Choices Counseling Center in Roseville.
00:05:42.160 --> 00:05:49.120
And shortly after I opened, I put in a bid on a contract with the Michigan Department of Corrections.
00:05:49.199 --> 00:05:55.199
And at that time I already had a 10-year working relationship with the MDOC in Lansing, being a corporate manager.
00:05:55.279 --> 00:06:02.399
So I was awarded a contract to provide outpatient counseling at 2003.
00:06:02.720 --> 00:06:13.600
Right around that time, the neighborhood service organization here in Detroit was starting up a problem gambling helpline.
00:06:13.759 --> 00:06:16.240
The casinos opened just a few years before that.
00:06:16.319 --> 00:06:29.279
So when they started having their problem gambling helpline, I I came down and I met the people running that, and I became one of their earlier panel members with uh the Michigan Problem Gambling Treatment Program.
00:06:29.519 --> 00:06:36.240
So in the last uh 23 years, I got more and more and more involved with the gambling.
00:06:36.399 --> 00:06:43.040
And so 1995, I met a gal in recovery in Detroit.
00:06:43.120 --> 00:06:44.959
We went out to Las Vegas to get married.
00:06:45.040 --> 00:06:46.959
I wanted to get married in front of my family.
00:06:47.120 --> 00:06:47.439
Okay.
00:06:47.680 --> 00:06:51.120
I had four years clean, my wife was clean, it was a wonderful thing.
00:06:51.360 --> 00:07:02.959
But when we got out there and got married, I received some unexpected financial gifts from family members, wedding gifts, and things like that, and I turned around and I gambled it all away in just one day.
00:07:03.199 --> 00:07:09.360
So, long story short, I told my wife I take the gambling just as serious as she knew I took drinking and drugging.
00:07:09.519 --> 00:07:12.160
And I quit gambling in 1995.
00:07:12.399 --> 00:07:19.920
So over the next 15 years, I did less and less and less with alcohol and drugs, and more and more with gambling.
00:07:20.160 --> 00:07:28.160
One time I had a couple offices, I had secretaries and therapists and things like that working with mental health and just basically addiction.
00:07:28.240 --> 00:07:38.000
So choices counseling is basically uh a treatment program for addictive disorders, more so than like for depression or other mental health issues.
00:07:38.079 --> 00:07:39.680
I'm I'm the addictions guy.
00:07:40.000 --> 00:07:55.839
Okay, and interesting because um you know we talk about the 70s, 80s, you know, as you were growing up, and you talk about gambling being pervasive, you know, um in your family or it was um accessible to you.
00:07:56.000 --> 00:07:57.680
What type of gambling was going on?
00:07:57.839 --> 00:08:00.240
Because, you know, not the casinos weren't around at that point.
00:08:00.639 --> 00:08:11.759
Yeah, so I got involved in the street scenes, everything from rolling dice on the corner to the Friday night card games, and the truth is there was a a like a seedy side of gambling back then.
00:08:12.079 --> 00:08:20.720
Anytime large amounts of money easily changes hands over a tabletop, over a game, it always attracts a criminal element.
00:08:20.800 --> 00:08:22.879
And I got into that side of it too.
00:08:22.959 --> 00:08:34.960
And and and so, like most of it was like like betting on sports, and when I was in the institutions, because I was uh a son of my father in his gambling school, I was fairly good at it.
00:08:35.039 --> 00:08:37.440
So I gambled through the institutions and things.
00:08:37.519 --> 00:08:51.840
It was just a way to keep a few dollars in my pocket, and I had this belief that if you were pretty good at gambling, if you perfected a system, you could probably go through life okay without having to have a day job.
00:08:52.000 --> 00:08:56.960
So in my head, it was all about the streets, it's about the fast money, the easy money.
00:08:57.200 --> 00:09:01.919
But card games and sports was pretty much what I was involved with.
00:09:02.240 --> 00:09:03.919
Okay, very interesting.
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:06.639
How do clients typically come to you?
00:09:06.720 --> 00:09:12.639
And what role does the Michigan Propaganda helpline play in connecting people to your services?
00:09:13.279 --> 00:09:17.440
So in May 1st, I celebrated 30 years gambling free.
00:09:17.679 --> 00:09:30.879
Coming up on 35 years clean and sober, but I had 30 years gambling free, and in the last 30 years, I got very, very involved with 12-step recovery across the board, drinking, drugging, gambling.
00:09:31.039 --> 00:09:40.240
And so I have a I'm a fairly prominent member of this Metro Detroit recovery community, so lots of people come to me through word of mouth.
00:09:40.559 --> 00:09:44.559
For a while I had a magnetic sign on my vehicles.
00:09:44.799 --> 00:09:47.919
Problem gambling, I could help with my phone number.
00:09:48.080 --> 00:09:51.600
So, like I was just marketing myself for a long time.
00:09:52.000 --> 00:09:58.000
But the the majority of my calls now probably come from the Michigan Problem Gambling Helpline.
00:09:58.240 --> 00:09:58.559
Okay.
00:09:58.799 --> 00:10:16.799
And so, and also with the Michigan Gaming Control Board, I've been on the panel to provide treatment for people that violated that disassociated persons list, that self-exclusion, they get caught, whether they can face consequences in court or they can come into a diversion program, which I facilitate.
00:10:17.279 --> 00:10:21.679
So I get a fair amount of people every year from the Michigan Gaming Control Board.
00:10:21.919 --> 00:10:26.320
I am a board member of the Michigan Association on Problem Gambling.
00:10:26.559 --> 00:10:33.120
And so, like, I got like a lot of different like referral sources, so to speak, but a big one is just word of mouth.
00:10:33.279 --> 00:10:36.000
I have people I've worked with with gambling issues now.
00:10:36.080 --> 00:10:38.320
I've been a gambling therapist for 28 years.
00:10:38.480 --> 00:10:38.799
Wow.
00:10:38.960 --> 00:10:41.200
Long before I started on the panel.
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:41.600
Yes.
00:10:41.759 --> 00:10:48.720
And so lots of people that I worked with through word of mouth, family and friends, like I'm I'm pretty easy to access.
00:10:48.879 --> 00:10:50.960
So people pretty much know what I do.
00:10:51.200 --> 00:10:51.440
Okay.
00:10:52.159 --> 00:10:54.720
Especially in the recovering circles, the 12-step program.
00:10:54.960 --> 00:10:56.720
So I get a lot of referrals from that.
00:10:57.039 --> 00:10:57.360
Okay.
00:10:57.679 --> 00:10:58.879
Uh let me ask you this.
00:10:59.039 --> 00:11:07.519
When someone first comes to counseling for a gambling problem, what are the initial steps you take to help them recognize the impact of their gambling?
00:11:07.759 --> 00:11:12.320
All right, the first thing is that I I do a pretty thorough assessment.
00:11:12.559 --> 00:11:16.720
And so when a person comes in, gambling is not one size fits all.
00:11:16.879 --> 00:11:20.240
Some people are in the gambling for the stimulation, the excitement.
00:11:20.399 --> 00:11:26.879
Others are in the gambling for like the escape, the isolation, depending on the games that they play.
00:11:27.039 --> 00:11:31.759
So I need to do an assessment, first of all, to see the severity of their gambling.
00:11:32.080 --> 00:11:33.600
We have some testing instruments.
00:11:33.759 --> 00:11:35.679
One that we use is called the nods.
00:11:35.840 --> 00:11:40.639
It's just a brief summary to kind of like pinpoint exactly what's going on.
00:11:40.879 --> 00:11:43.840
I also assess to see what phase they're in.
00:11:43.919 --> 00:11:50.799
They may be in a phase of desperation, they may be hopeless, they may be, you know, different phases of their gambling career.
00:11:50.960 --> 00:11:55.840
And then I also have to kind of like get a sense as to their level of motivation.
00:11:56.000 --> 00:11:59.440
Are they contemplative of taking this change recovery process?
00:11:59.600 --> 00:12:01.200
Are they in some type of a denial?
00:12:01.360 --> 00:12:03.360
So you have to do an assessment a little bit.
00:12:03.759 --> 00:12:05.279
Are they being forced by relatives?
00:12:05.679 --> 00:12:08.000
Yes, and why are they coming in?
00:12:08.159 --> 00:12:11.519
Is this on their own or is somebody putting their foot down?
00:12:11.679 --> 00:12:15.519
Is this an ultimatum you get into counseling or you can't come back home?
00:12:15.679 --> 00:12:18.799
So you have to figure out what's bringing them into the office.
00:12:18.879 --> 00:12:24.000
And from there, what type of gambling they're doing, how extensive.
00:12:24.320 --> 00:12:27.120
Usually there's a lot of secrecy going on, too.
00:12:27.200 --> 00:12:32.320
So gamblers are a little bit uh uncomfortable with fully disclosing what's happening.
00:12:32.480 --> 00:12:42.240
So sometimes it's like a type of denial or minimization or rationalization that you have to kind of like get a handle on before you can really go forward.
00:12:42.639 --> 00:12:54.000
Curious on your thoughts on why do you think people are more ashamed of admitting to gambling than admitting to, you know, if they are using drugs.
00:12:54.240 --> 00:12:58.879
Like they admit to using drugs, but they're very hesitant to admit that they're gambling.
00:12:59.200 --> 00:13:04.799
All right, well, you know, the actual gambling disorder diagnosis is a major addictive disorder.
00:13:05.039 --> 00:13:11.200
It's up there with alcohol, up there with drugs, but to this very day, it's primarily a hidden addiction.
00:13:11.360 --> 00:13:16.000
So it doesn't get the press, the coverage, that alcohol and drugs.
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:22.080
Everybody in this country knows we're locked in the grips of an opioid epidemic with the fentanyl, the heroin, the overdoses.
00:13:22.320 --> 00:13:24.320
It's been on the news a lot.
00:13:24.799 --> 00:13:28.399
Nobody talks about gambling to that extent.
00:13:28.960 --> 00:13:30.720
It's more like a hidden addiction.
00:13:30.879 --> 00:13:35.440
So, like, especially with the drugs, um, a lot of that is illicit.
00:13:36.320 --> 00:13:48.480
With gambling, everything is legal, everything is easy, convenient, socially acceptable, widely available, promoted, advertised, gambling is truly America's newest favorite pastime.
00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:57.600
And the general theory about gambling is that uh most people are doing very good or breaking even, no problems.
00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:00.879
And that's not been my experience as a gambling therapist.
00:14:01.039 --> 00:14:13.120
So I see the other side of the gambling problem, and a lot of times the embarrassment is that uh it doesn't it doesn't have the the coverage of like an alcohol or drug problem.
00:14:13.440 --> 00:14:34.720
Oftentimes, like with alcohol, a lot of times when people get sober from alcohol, a lot of times, especially with men, the first thing that happens is that they may be intoxicated driving a car to get stopped by the police, and from that that sets in motion going to court, getting a look at sobriety, you know, like getting into treatment.
00:14:34.799 --> 00:14:37.759
You don't get stopped by the police for gambling.
00:14:37.919 --> 00:14:48.240
And so so it's it's just it's under the, it flies under the wire, so to speak, in our public's attention, as truly being uh like a an addictive resort.
00:14:49.279 --> 00:14:50.480
It's it's more fun in games.
00:14:50.559 --> 00:14:52.639
It's America's newest favorite pastime.
00:14:52.960 --> 00:15:05.279
Because you have we would have individuals will happily tell you, I won$5,000 at the casino, but they will rarely tell you what they lost before they won the$5,000.
00:15:05.679 --> 00:15:07.440
Yeah, well, we have an old joke.
00:15:07.600 --> 00:15:10.000
How do you make a small fortune gambling?
00:15:10.240 --> 00:15:10.720
Easy.
00:15:10.960 --> 00:15:12.559
Start with the large fortune.
00:15:12.720 --> 00:15:25.679
So, but like like when people say like they won$5,000, um, you know, problem gambling is not that people don't win money, of course they win.
00:15:25.840 --> 00:15:28.399
If nobody won, nobody would gamble.
00:15:28.639 --> 00:15:39.440
But the mind, the mind says this, especially if there's large levels of excitement and stimulation, the more you initially win, the more you want to return and play more often.
00:15:39.600 --> 00:15:42.559
So the more you win, the more you play, the more you play.
00:15:42.720 --> 00:15:47.279
Many people cross an invisible line into the compulsive side of gambling.
00:15:47.519 --> 00:15:55.120
And it's been my experience, once a gambler crosses that line into compulsive gambling, technically they will never win money again.
00:15:55.360 --> 00:15:58.720
What they will win is simply more gambling.
00:15:58.960 --> 00:16:01.840
And so it's not that they don't win, it they don't stop.
00:16:02.159 --> 00:16:02.799
Right.
00:16:03.120 --> 00:16:04.639
Wow, interesting.
00:16:04.879 --> 00:16:10.399
Um, so trust can be a big issue for people struggling uh with gambling.
00:16:10.559 --> 00:16:14.320
How do you help clients rebuild trust with themselves and their loved ones?
00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:20.320
Well, you know, trust is is is uh a common denominator across the board with gambling.
00:16:20.720 --> 00:16:28.000
Lots and lots of gambling, when you get into the addictive side, it grows in darkness and secrecy.
00:16:28.240 --> 00:16:38.639
And so you you can't have a drinking or a drug problem too long without people in your orbit kind of detecting you're staggering, you're slurring your words.
00:16:38.799 --> 00:16:47.519
Gamblers have a tendency that you can't like see it like you can with the substances, so they can get away with it a lot longer.
00:16:47.600 --> 00:16:55.120
And sometimes gamblers are right in a household with other family members and they're unaware of the extent of the gambling.
00:16:55.279 --> 00:17:14.000
And so when it comes to that secrecy, a big item with with what we're talking about here is that if you have a gambler in a household and other family members are unaware of the extent of it, of course, when it does all come out, there's going to be major, major trust issues.
00:17:14.079 --> 00:17:21.440
So, in addition to losing money, most gamblers lose trust and they lose the respect of other family members.
00:17:22.160 --> 00:17:31.039
And so a big part of this recovery process is that just to even learn that you're not alone with this.
00:17:31.279 --> 00:17:38.079
There's many, many, many people also in what I would call recovery from a gambling disorder.
00:17:38.480 --> 00:17:44.400
And through peer support connections, people regain that trust.
00:17:44.720 --> 00:17:50.640
And like in my practice with gambling, I often bring in other family members.
00:17:50.799 --> 00:17:56.000
Over time, I get to know the gambler's partner, I get to know their kids and how they're doing in school.
00:17:56.079 --> 00:18:01.039
So, like, like it's it's it's an ongoing type of a process.
00:18:01.680 --> 00:18:11.039
So, one of the things that I do is that I also have a recovery group meeting on Thursday evenings.
00:18:11.119 --> 00:18:24.480
It's an invite-only group, but I have people that came to my program, even from the gaming control from the disassociated persons almost five years ago, and to this very day, they're still with me every week on a group that I do.
00:18:24.640 --> 00:18:24.799
Okay.
00:18:25.119 --> 00:18:32.319
And so you develop that trust by coming out of hiding, honestly, self-disclosing, trusting the process.
00:18:32.640 --> 00:18:35.920
Gamblers get to know us in recovery, we get to know them.
00:18:36.079 --> 00:18:38.880
And something positive often comes out of that.
00:18:39.279 --> 00:18:39.599
Okay.
00:18:40.000 --> 00:18:46.960
And what are some practical tools or strategies do you teach clients to maintain lasting recovery?
00:18:47.279 --> 00:18:52.240
All right, so you know, there's something loosely called relapse prevention.
00:18:52.799 --> 00:19:03.599
And there's different types of strategies and techniques that are involved with that, but I am real, real favorable with having people develop peer recovery support groups.
00:19:03.839 --> 00:19:06.000
Could be 12-step, could be the smart recovery.
00:19:06.079 --> 00:19:07.839
There's lots of other things happening.
00:19:08.160 --> 00:19:13.920
Some people find uh like like a Christian base, there's something called uh celebrate recovery.
00:19:14.559 --> 00:19:24.880
That the more you're involved with everyday people also in recovery, it's almost like like recovery on its simplest terms would be monkey see, monkey do.
00:19:25.039 --> 00:19:31.119
So if you're hanging around people actively staying away from gambling, it gets easier for you to not gamble too.
00:19:31.359 --> 00:19:38.319
So a lot of times gambling it grows in darkness and secrecy, and recovery flourishes in openness, honesty, the light of day.
00:19:38.400 --> 00:19:40.319
We're all on the same page here.
00:19:40.720 --> 00:19:41.039
Okay.
00:19:41.440 --> 00:19:44.319
And what are some um early intervention keys?
00:19:44.480 --> 00:19:50.160
Like what signs should people watch for in themselves or loved ones that may indicate a gambling problem?
00:19:50.400 --> 00:19:54.079
All right, so it's different for different age groups.
00:19:54.240 --> 00:20:02.000
If we're talking about teenagers, their warning signs may look a little bit different than somebody in their 20s or 30s or somebody a little bit older.
00:20:02.240 --> 00:20:04.559
But secrecy is the big one.
00:20:04.720 --> 00:20:09.119
Gamblers have a tendency to be kind of secretive around other family members.
00:20:09.920 --> 00:20:13.920
Unexplained financial loss is very, very common.
00:20:14.160 --> 00:20:19.599
You got a guy working full-time and yet he needs to borrow money to make his truck payment and things like that.
00:20:19.680 --> 00:20:23.440
And sometimes the flip side of that is unexplained wealth.
00:20:23.599 --> 00:20:36.799
Suddenly a gambler or somebody in the household is buying a new car, getting flat screen TVs for all the children, unexplained income and unexplained like financial distress is big signs.
00:20:36.960 --> 00:20:56.480
But usually a gambler, again, it's the secrecy that, you know, on that topic, if you have a gambler in a family system, say there's a guy with a wife, and the trust issues and things like that, it comes down to how does the partner eventually find out that there's a gambling problem.
00:20:56.799 --> 00:21:07.839
So sometimes a gambler may just have that moment of honesty breakdown and tell his wife, hey, you know, I got something to say, I've been gambling, it's kind of getting the best of me, I'm out a lot of money.
00:21:07.920 --> 00:21:16.079
So it's that self-disclosed honesty that gets that partner maybe part of that person's recovery network.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:24.319
On the other hand, say the wife opens up some mail and there's a foreclosure notice, right?
00:21:25.359 --> 00:21:27.440
Out of nowhere, we're losing the house.
00:21:27.599 --> 00:21:36.720
So sometimes the gambler is detected by being caught in something, and sometimes the partner knows when it's confessed.
00:21:37.039 --> 00:21:42.880
When it's confessed, the family typically will rally around and be supportive.
00:21:43.200 --> 00:21:47.359
When a gambler is caught, that's a whole different story.
00:21:47.599 --> 00:21:48.240
Whole different issue.
00:21:48.480 --> 00:21:49.039
A whole different story.
00:21:49.279 --> 00:21:52.319
And what does that look like, you know, as we talk about young people?
00:21:52.559 --> 00:21:59.680
What does a gambling for a parent looking for signs for a young person to detect?
00:22:00.319 --> 00:22:00.960
If you're gambling.
00:22:01.119 --> 00:22:01.519
Well, you know.
00:22:01.759 --> 00:22:02.640
What would that kind of look like?
00:22:03.119 --> 00:22:08.400
Oftentimes, it's real big with kids today, young people today, betting on sports.
00:22:08.559 --> 00:22:15.680
So sometimes it may be over enthusiastic with the sports apparel, talking about it all the time.
00:22:15.839 --> 00:22:18.880
And again, sometimes it's like unexplained money.
00:22:19.039 --> 00:22:22.160
One day the kid got hundreds and hundreds of dollars.
00:22:22.319 --> 00:22:36.480
Um, but oftentimes, like there there may even be some changes in who that person is associating with, school problems, attention problems, and and probably some positions coming up missing.
00:22:36.720 --> 00:22:37.440
And the secrecy.
00:22:37.519 --> 00:22:42.400
Yeah, and yeah, in some instances, yeah, things may be missing around the house, you know.
00:22:42.480 --> 00:22:49.039
So like it may have a lot of similarities with somebody also using substances.
00:22:49.359 --> 00:22:49.680
Okay.
00:22:49.920 --> 00:22:59.200
Like with the substances, a kid would come home and he's nodding out or he's so stimulated he's up all night with the gambling, you don't see that the physical signs.
00:22:59.519 --> 00:22:59.839
Right.
00:23:00.000 --> 00:23:01.599
And that's my next question for you.
00:23:01.839 --> 00:23:08.880
So, how do you address situations where clients are struggling with both gambling and other addictions or mental health challenges?
00:23:09.200 --> 00:23:15.599
You know what, as an addictive disorder, problem gambling rarely travels alone.
00:23:16.000 --> 00:23:16.799
Rarely.
00:23:17.039 --> 00:23:27.359
And so my thought is problem gambling often starts off as a pleasant distraction from emotional discomfort.
00:23:27.599 --> 00:23:32.000
And so, in that sense, gambling is a symptom of a deeper disturbance.
00:23:32.400 --> 00:23:43.200
And the secret losing of money, your financial stability, your independence, it it looks a whole lot like a type of a like a mental health issue.
00:23:43.839 --> 00:23:45.680
Let me be clear.
00:23:46.319 --> 00:23:55.680
Gambling disorder is a primary diagnosis, it is not secondary to depression or poverty or relationship problems.
00:23:55.839 --> 00:23:58.319
It is a primary diagnosis.
00:23:58.559 --> 00:24:03.359
And so sometimes a person may say, Well, I got this problem with gambling.
00:24:03.440 --> 00:24:08.640
I got to figure out what went bumping the night years ago to put me on this path.
00:24:08.880 --> 00:24:16.640
And it sounds as almost like they need to do some psychoanalytical work to figure out why they're caught up in the gambling.
00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:24.240
And it kind of minimizes that this culture right now, we are so top-heavy with advertising gambling.
00:24:24.400 --> 00:24:34.799
Every three minutes on television, there's a full Hollywood-produced commercial with celebrities and sports stars and everybody talking about gambling.
00:24:34.880 --> 00:24:44.319
And so if we promote it at the extent we're doing, we can only imagine that people are going to kind of like take it to the next level and beyond.
00:24:44.559 --> 00:24:47.279
So again, it's like America's newest favorite pastime.
00:24:47.359 --> 00:24:53.519
And there's a responsible side of gambling, and then there's the predatory part of the industry.
00:24:54.240 --> 00:25:05.440
And that's kind of like the ongoing struggle that I see is like, how do we get responsible gambling separate from the predatory pathological greed part of gambling?
00:25:05.839 --> 00:25:10.640
And so, you know, like lots of people they go into this almost like blindly.
00:25:10.799 --> 00:25:20.480
It's just a way to have a few laughs, have a little entertainment, and a year or two later they're just hopelessly caught up in something they never saw coming.
00:25:21.359 --> 00:25:35.839
Yeah, taking it from entertainment, just going out for evening, having a little fun, and then and and now, of course, you know, modern gaming has changed so much in the last five years with the internet platforms.
00:25:35.920 --> 00:25:44.000
We're up against artificial intelligence in ways that the Las Vegas casinos of yesterday never, never experienced.
00:25:44.400 --> 00:25:46.079
It's just the access to it.
00:25:46.400 --> 00:25:47.359
The access, yeah.
00:25:47.519 --> 00:25:47.839
Yeah.
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:55.200
Um, with the holidays approaching, Mike, um, which often bring stress and more opportunities to gamble.
00:25:55.359 --> 00:26:01.039
What advice do you give clients to stay mindful and maintain healthy boundaries during this time?
00:26:01.279 --> 00:26:04.960
Well, you know, the holidays bring up something a little bit unique.
00:26:05.200 --> 00:26:08.480
Oftentimes people get end-of-the-year bonuses.
00:26:09.039 --> 00:26:21.839
Oftentimes people have end of the year days off of work, like the week between Thanksgiving and or the month between Thanksgiving and Christmas, there's a lot of like it's a festive time of the year.
00:26:22.000 --> 00:26:37.440
And so, like, if you you just have to be aware that uh there's limitations that you have to impose on yourself, and do the holiday season, you know, there's lots and lots going on in the name of recovery.
00:26:37.680 --> 00:26:47.359
And so, like a lot of times in different types of support groups, they band together, have like holiday meals together and things like that, and the 12-step programs and things like that.
00:26:47.440 --> 00:26:54.240
So it's just important that you be aware that you're gonna may have some extra money, maybe that bonus, time off of work.
00:26:54.480 --> 00:27:10.960
The other one is that uh through the National Council on Problem Gambling some years ago, and I know Michigan is now part of it, but we had a concern about passing out scratch-off lottery tickets and gift cards and envelopes and Christmas cards and things like that.
00:27:11.200 --> 00:27:23.759
And grandparents may see they can put a$20 scratch-off lottery ticket and give it to their grandson or granddaughter, nine, ten years of age, it's kind of like no harm done.
00:27:24.000 --> 00:27:32.319
But sometimes, if a 10-year-old kid wins a thousand dollars, where's that kid gonna be when he's 25, 30 years of age?
00:27:32.799 --> 00:27:39.759
And so, like, like gambling, because it's not recognized as an addictive disorder, it's like a hidden addiction.
00:27:40.480 --> 00:27:46.079
Nobody would give their 10-year-old grandson a bottle of scotch.
00:27:46.480 --> 00:27:48.559
Give him a lottery ticket, what's the harm?
00:27:48.720 --> 00:27:54.000
And so, like, the public perception of gambling is still pretty much recreational.
00:27:55.119 --> 00:28:04.960
And and when a person does cross into the problem side of gambling, it's not really like like talked about in our media as people that have a drinking or drug.
00:28:05.440 --> 00:28:22.799
In fact, when we look at, like, say, alcohol and drugs, there are well over 30 or 40 residential programs here in Michigan where a person can go and sober up, dry out 30 days, three hots in a cot, get some therapy.
00:28:23.039 --> 00:28:29.599
We are in the process of trying to get a statewide gambling residential program open right now.
00:28:29.680 --> 00:28:38.400
And I commend Aliyah Lucas and the people at the Michigan Department of Health and Human Services for targeting the need for more gambling treatment.
00:28:38.480 --> 00:28:49.119
And so, as this gambling expands as often and as fast as it's doing, my concern is that we need to meet that expansion of gambling with treatment.
00:28:49.279 --> 00:28:54.079
So the more gambling is becoming popular, the more we need to invest money in the treatment.
00:28:54.240 --> 00:29:05.039
I don't want to get into the statistics and the money, but a lot of money is coming into the state of Michigan from gambling, and it's disproportionate to what's going into the treatment.
00:29:05.200 --> 00:29:10.799
Yeah, and so we're making some headway on that, but uh, and other states don't even have funded gambling treatment.
00:29:10.960 --> 00:29:17.200
So Michigan, at least, you know, we're on the like the cutting edge of this new treatment.
00:29:17.519 --> 00:29:17.759
Treatment.
00:29:18.000 --> 00:29:19.519
And it it needs to continue.
00:29:19.839 --> 00:29:48.079
Yeah, I know the Michigan Control Board through our Internet Gaming Fund has recently, you know, we were um contributing approximately um three, four million to um gambling um addictions, and now that's increased to now some years ago in legislation some of that gambling treatment money was kind of like diverted into domestic violence and and other things like that.
00:29:48.400 --> 00:29:52.720
You know, and that's why we that's why we just increase we just need to be aware of this.
00:29:53.039 --> 00:29:54.720
Yes, absolutely.
00:29:55.039 --> 00:30:14.400
And and and since you mentioned it, I think we do need to take this opportunity to discourage um those adults who would go to um by a young person, a minor, an underage person, a uh scratch off or a lottery ticket.
00:30:14.640 --> 00:30:20.480
So we do want to discourage um people from doing that because we don't want them doing that.
00:30:21.119 --> 00:30:35.920
Yeah, and I'm aware that like Michigan Gaming Control, the don't regret the bad this program that you're the director of, you're doing much more now with advertisements and on uh on the safe side of gambling than ever before.
00:30:36.000 --> 00:30:39.440
And I I compliment you for doing that because I see everything on TV.
00:30:39.519 --> 00:30:47.519
I see all the ads, all the gambling promotions and things like that, but I do see more and more of the don't regret the the bet.
00:30:47.680 --> 00:30:53.359
And I've been working with the gaming control board here with like Sandra Johnson and Sarah Ripe for kind of a long time.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:31:00.559
So I'm not new to what you guys are doing here, but I compliment you for uh seeing the need to make this more visible.
00:31:00.880 --> 00:31:01.440
Yes, thank you.
00:31:01.839 --> 00:31:07.119
And there's a fine line too between recreational gambling and predatory gambling.
00:31:07.440 --> 00:31:12.319
Absolutely, and being responsible and and then trying to regulate the industry, right?
00:31:12.480 --> 00:31:23.359
Because we also are responsible for regulating the industry and then trying to ensure that there's um dollars to um advertise, like you said, don't regret the bet.
00:31:23.599 --> 00:31:23.759
Right.
00:31:24.000 --> 00:31:33.440
You know, we want to um ensure that people are if they're gambling to do it responsibly, you know, as best uh we know how.
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:34.559
You know.
00:31:34.880 --> 00:31:49.359
Um for someone unsure whether they or someone they love um has a gambling problem, what first step would you recommend and how can they connect with Choices Counseling Center or the Problem of Gambling Helpline?
00:31:49.839 --> 00:32:00.960
Again, so Choices Counseling Center, I have a a pretty large like presence in the Metro Detroit community for gambling specific issues.
00:32:01.039 --> 00:32:05.200
So my name's been out there for almost 25 years now doing what I do.
00:32:05.440 --> 00:32:10.559
When a person is on that, like say on the fence, do they have a problem or not?
00:32:10.720 --> 00:32:20.079
Um usually it's word of mouth that may get them, like the advertisement of our uh the problem gambling helpline that is a little confusing.
00:32:20.160 --> 00:32:22.799
It was 1-800 gambler recently now.
00:32:22.880 --> 00:32:26.640
I think it's back to 1-800-2707117.
00:32:27.039 --> 00:32:40.880
But when they call that phone number, there are people that on the receiving side of that phone call that are pretty adept at asking some questions to kind of like get a to get more information out of that person.
00:32:41.039 --> 00:32:48.960
But once the referral is made to me, however it's made to me, there's a couple things that we use, uh even a couple simple questions.
00:32:49.279 --> 00:32:52.240
Question one Are you gambling?
00:32:52.960 --> 00:32:56.480
Are you spending more time gambling than you used to spend time gambling?
00:32:56.640 --> 00:32:59.039
Are you losing money you cannot easily afford to lose?
00:32:59.200 --> 00:33:03.119
Are you ever being untruthful with a loved one about the extent of your gambling?
00:33:03.200 --> 00:33:08.000
So just a couple questions can kind of like get that door opened.
00:33:08.400 --> 00:33:08.960
Absolutely.
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:20.720
So the 1-800 gambler is still operational, so people can still use that in addition to the the um Michigan Prime Gambling Hotline at 1-800-270-7117.
00:33:20.960 --> 00:33:24.960
So they can both uh citizens can reach out to both of those um numbers.
00:33:25.119 --> 00:33:32.319
Um, Mike, as we um wrap up here, um is there any additional information you like to provide to the citizens?
00:33:32.480 --> 00:33:36.640
Um, any other um resources you would like to um share?
00:33:36.960 --> 00:33:45.519
Well, you know what, uh there's more and more coming together in the the the identifying problem gambling earlier than later now.
00:33:45.680 --> 00:33:54.640
The state of Michigan is has resources, the Michigan Gaming Control Board, the Department of Health and Human Services, the problem gambling helpline.
00:33:54.799 --> 00:34:05.119
And again, we're on the verge of I'm hoping this coming year we're gonna have our first out of the city of Detroit residential problem gambling treatment program.
00:34:05.519 --> 00:34:13.360
And so the word is out there, and um, you know, I got a call right before I came here today, and just a little backstory.
00:34:13.519 --> 00:34:15.039
I get a call in March.
00:34:15.199 --> 00:34:20.480
This guy has some gambling issues, the wife found out that he's losing money coming out of their joint account.
00:34:20.639 --> 00:34:26.480
I only spoke with them one time, and then follow-up calls just went unanswered.
00:34:26.639 --> 00:34:31.119
And out of the blue, I get a text message at 7 o'clock this morning.
00:34:31.280 --> 00:34:33.679
Hey, Mike, it's me again.
00:34:33.920 --> 00:34:34.719
I need help.
00:34:34.880 --> 00:34:39.760
So before I came here, I had him connect with the the problem gambling program again.
00:34:39.840 --> 00:34:45.920
And so long story short, is I'm reopening his file this afternoon, as soon as I leave this office.
00:34:46.079 --> 00:34:52.559
So we're getting a lot more public exposure out here that there is help available.
00:34:52.719 --> 00:34:58.159
And again, in the last 25 years that I've been doing this job, I've been a gambling therapist for 28 years.
00:34:58.320 --> 00:35:03.199
The first 10-15 years, nobody even talked about problem gambling.
00:35:03.280 --> 00:35:05.199
It was just a non-issue.
00:35:05.360 --> 00:35:14.400
And so today it's much more in the public's con and in their conscience that there is a problem side of gambling and there is help available.
00:35:14.719 --> 00:35:21.840
So again, as 1-800 GAMBLER and 1-800-270-7117.
00:35:22.079 --> 00:35:43.840
Mike, I would like to thank you for joining us today and sharing your insights on supporting individuals and families affected by gambling addiction, your guidance on recognizing the signs, building trust, and using practical tools for recovery is incredibly valuable, especially as we head into the holiday season when stress and temptation can be heard.
00:35:54.320 --> 00:35:55.440
Give that number again.
00:35:55.679 --> 00:35:59.280
586-350-6800.
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:00.239
Great.
00:36:00.400 --> 00:36:14.000
For anyone interested in hearing Mike's personal story, his testimonial video can be found on the Michigan Gaming Control Board's website at Michigan.gov forward slash MGCB on the responsible gaming page of the site.
00:36:14.159 --> 00:36:31.599
For anyone listening who may be struggling with gambling or know someone who is, we encourage you to reach out to Choices Counseling Center or call the Michigan Problem Gambling Hotline at 1-800-270-7117 or call 1-800-GAMBLER.
00:36:31.920 --> 00:36:34.960
Help is available and recovery is possible.
00:36:35.119 --> 00:36:45.280
Thank you all for listening, and we hope today's conversation provides support, hope, and practical strategies for maintaining healthy habits this season and beyond.
00:36:45.440 --> 00:36:46.559
Mike, thanks again.
