David Bain
Digital Marketing Radio Episode 262. Where does a podcast fit into your content marketing mix?
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Digital Marketing Radio with David Bain
David Bain
I'm David Bain. And this is Digital Marketing Radio, the show for in-house agency and entrepreneurial marketers who wants to stay on top of that. He says tools, tactics and trends I shared right here by today's modern marketing masters. Now, are you thinking of starting a podcast? If so, what are your reasons for doing so? There are well over 2 million podcasts now. But what is the commercial value of starting and publishing a regular podcast? And where does a podcast fit into your overall content marketing mix? There was just two of the questions that I'm going to be asking him but my guest on Digital Marketing, Radio 262. He is a digital marketing strategist with a strong background in SEO, web design and training. And he heads up fleet marketing. And of course, he has his own podcast to the Jonny Ross audio experience. Welcome to DMR Jonny Ross.
Jonny Ross
Hi. Thanks for having me. How are you?
David Bain
Yeah, we're good. Thanks, Jonny. And how are you? Yeah,
Jonny Ross
fine. Not bad at all. Thank you. It's great to be here. And excited to be talking about podcasting.
David Bain
Indeed, indeed. So I'll just say you can find Johnny over at fleek dot marketing. So, Johnny, you started your podcast back in March 2020? Why?
Jonny Ross
Oh, that's a good question, isn't it? Okay, so I have known that podcasting is something that is, is a real big part of any marketing mix nowadays. And I just think I've been so involved in the business and delivering work for clients that, you know, it's difficult as a business entity to step back, isn't it and COVID came along, March 2008, gave me that ability to step back and sort of just redress everything. And I did that in a matter of days. And there was a, there was a friend that had just starts to podcast, I ended up on a screen share with her and she was like, Oh, you know, I've done, you know, weeks of training and into the like, you know, a buddy system with, you know, I think the mumps actually, they've done loads of stuff. Anyway, she showed me some stuff. And within, I think about two hours, I'd already had a graphic design that already signed up to a platform that was going to deliver the podcast. And I think I probably had my first guest signed up. So it was just, you know, if I'm going to make something happen, I'll do it. And I just got excited later, didn't you? Yeah. I just haven't had the right time or the opportunity.
David Bain
So maybe a better question then is why have you stuck with the podcast? Because we're more than maybe a year and a half or so after that? No, but you're consistently publishing episodes? Yeah,
Jonny Ross
I think I've just done just recorded 40 number 43. And I think because I get I just get a lot from it. I really enjoy it. And and I get a huge amount from it. And and I think I know, it's probably your second question, but I think it's really relevant, which is, you know, where does it Where does the podcast fit in? And for years, I was always banging on about blogging. And blogging was for me the core of the strategy. And I actually think it's flipped to podcasting. And in fact, actually, what is blogging? Well, it's just written word, isn't it? And podcasting is spoken word. So there's no real difference. It's just that the format's changed. So that means central content, I think is the is the core of any marketing campaign. And so I've just moved from blogging to podcasting as as the thing that's in the middle. But of course, you can take your podcasts and turn them into into blogs. So
David Bain
So what's changed? I mean, you obviously started out, potentially, even with a cause with a reason for doing it back then when we just went into lockdown. To a certain degree, we just come out of lockdown. But things have changed in terms of your business and the way that you produce podcasts. And the reason why you produce podcasts, I'm sure so I guess one of the things, what are the main things that have changed between back then when you did number one, and recently when you did Episode Number 43? Yeah, I
Jonny Ross
think actually. It it could be it doesn't, it doesn't need to have been COVID it that's changed it. Because you're right, there has been a significant change of the sort of content I was doing for the first few months to what I'm doing now. But actually, that's just like in any business it should marry that's not quite the right word, but marry up with what's going on around you and what's what, what what's topical. And so for me in the early days, it was around you know, lots of businesses struggling and not knowing which direction to go in and seeking advice and so in the early days it was around sort of, you know what to do during COVID. And what help is out there and different directions you should be thinking about and taking. Whereas now it's moulded back to what I've always done, which is just giving great value, and lots of tips and tricks on on marketing. And, and I think, I think the what, what's also been been quite good is finding people that are, you know, quite inspirational, or have had big grow for, or have a marketing element within their business and not just talking to marketeers and not just talking to talking about digital marketing all the time, but also just bringing that real business element into it and, and the hearing from, from different people. Really,
David Bain
I think one thing that you've alluded to your why you enjoy it, and hearing from different people, is perhaps one of the main reasons why you do a podcast is actually the quality of the relationships that you make and build with your guests. Is that your primary reason why you actually do your podcast, you think?
Jonny Ross
Yeah, there's no question that that's a huge element. It's, it's a, it's an opportunity to build a relationship to learn, you know, how can you not learn when you're, when you're talking to, to other businesses that have grown or have got ideas or over or successful. And so it's, so for me, it's a way of learning, it's a way of developing it's a way of building relationships. But I, you know, the other element is I really enjoy, I've always enjoyed, you know, I fancy myself as a radio DJ. And so I've always enjoyed, to some extent entertaining, and just putting good content out there. And so, so it plays to that as well. And it plays to the real important part, which, for me, which is giving me something to be able to engage with my existing clients and to engage with potential future clients as well.
David Bain
So do you attempt to measure the commercial value of having a podcast? Or is that not really possible to do with in general?
Jonny Ross
Well, I think it's important to measure the commercial aspect. But for me, it's not been the focus up until recently, up until now, until recently, I think it's, you know, it's, it's playing to it's playing to a number of different things that actually, from a commercial point of view, it doesn't really matter. But I think, you know, I think that all comes back to why you set up a podcast in the first place, or what's your objective? What's, what's your goals? What are you trying to get out of this? And I think there are ways of measuring that, you know, I think there's lots of different ways to measure and tools to measure just like you would measure, blogging, or
David Bain
vlogging. One of the ways that I think about the value of having a podcast is that a podcast is hub content episode of content. And you've got, certainly from Google's perspective, the three h content marketing model, you've got your hero content, your help content and your hub content. I've tried to bring other ages into it. But that's another story. We'll perhaps leave that aside for the moment. But with regards to that way of thinking about it, of looking at it that lens, then it would essentially mean that a podcast was for people that had already heard about you, for people that perhaps weren't ready to buy yet from you. But it gave you an opportunity to build your authority for weeks, months, and perhaps even longer than that until they're ready to buy. And then because you've demonstrated that authority, you've kept your brand in mind, and they'll come back to you and then they'll be ready to purchase from you in the future. So that's how I view podcasting. Certainly, from a B2B perspective, I do think along similar lines,
Jonny Ross
yeah, although I think I think, you know, and I'm sure you think this, but it's certainly not said it just then is I still think the there's a very important part there, which is also engaging existing clients. So that's around, you know, one of the lessons that I've learned many years ago was ensure as a good business delivers value, lots and lots of value. So always over delivers. And for me, podcasting is a way to continually offer further value to existing clients. So whilst it's a huge B2B word has completely gone out of mind case for podcasting to to win new business. It's at the same time, it's about keeping that business but also, you know, by engaging existing clients, existing clients will end up spending more when will end up telling more people and so it's sort of all fits together? Yeah.
David Bain
So do you actively market to existing clients then do email them about the content that you're publishing and have a reason behind it to actually, hopefully keep them longer than your average client?
Jonny Ross
Yeah, so listen, let's, let's be frank here. Do I always practice what I preach? No. Does a will solicitor have a will? Not always. And, you know, I'm just as busy in my own businesses, as you know, many other people in their own businesses. But the best practice and where I want to be, is absolutely turning podcasts into emails, for example, to for, for current clients, for existing clients, for prospective clients, for contacts to be aware of podcast, so So yes, that's the ideal, and that's the best practice. Am I currently doing it? No, I'm not doing it well enough, whatsoever.
David Bain
And you're recording your podcasts and videos, weren't you? Yeah, so
Jonny Ross
the way I see it is, if I record via video, it gives me two types of content, I can go audio on Spotify, apple, etc. But I can also go video on YouTube. And I'm also recording it live. So delivering to YouTube Live delivering to Facebook and LinkedIn live at the same time, and then turning it into a podcast, my efficiency between times of something live that then gets turned into a podcast on Apple and Spotify needs improving. I think, I think it's not about the efficiency of the of turning it around to deliver onto Spotify and and an apple, it for me, it's more about if I deliver it there today, then I've got nothing in the bank for two for a week's time or two weeks time. So the way I've done it is I've sorted like to build up the the catalogue a bit before I share it, but then I've got to consider if something's gonna lie, yeah, yeah. And if something's gone out live as well already. You've got to consider that. So there's an in between? I think
David Bain
it is it's a challenge. There's no necessarily right solution. I think the rightest solution, if that's a word, would be simply the word consistency, and just deciding what you're doing it and committing to it. Yeah, yeah. So we should What about who should start a podcast? So if someone's listening, if someone's maybe an independent marketing consultants, and some kind of marketing professional that would like to talk about their expertise, build up their own brand authority a little bit? How would you persuade them to start a podcast and the reasons behind doing that?
Jonny Ross
I think there's a space for everyone, I think, I think the, the benefits far outweigh not doing it. So the opportunities are there. And it's, you know, it's those fundamental things is, it's a way to learn, it's a way to develop, it's a way to be creative. It's a way to create content. So that becomes your core of your marketing. So for me, you know, instead of struggling about what do I put on Instagram, what to put on Snapchat, what do I put on YouTube? What do I put on LinkedIn, actually, if you've got a consistent, whatever that is, weekly, bi weekly, whatever it might be, podcast, that can very easily be turned into tweets for Twitter posts for Instagram questions for Facebook debates on LinkedIn, snippets of video for different platforms, stiff bits of audio for different platforms. So so it, it fills the gap of, you know, what should I be? What should I be marketing? And, or how should I be marketing should I say, and so, so, I think, just in in those small number of reasons, I've given this loads there, that it's a bit of a no brainer, and as I said, it's a way to engage with existing and potential clients, there's not really a big barrier to entry. In fact, there's, there's, there's a very small barrier to entry. And, and actually, I would say the biggest barrier is having the confidence that you can do it. And, you know, apart from having a half decent microphone, a half decent webcam, setting up a podcast feed, which actually is really not difficult at all, it's you know, those are those are small barriers. The biggest barrier is actually just you know, committing to it and, and thinking about what content you're going to do.
David Bain
Yeah, I mean, you're set up, you've got a decent sound and you're just using the Samsung Qt you microphone, which is only about 70 pounds in the UK, probably about $100 or so it's a lovely, dynamic mic. microphones, you've got two different types of microphones that you can kind of probably choose from. It's a condenser microphone, which tends to pick up more in the room, such as a Blue Yeti, Blue Yeti produces a nice, warm sound, but I don't particularly like it because it picks up a little bit too much background noise. If you use a dynamic microphone, it's got what's called a small hiccup pattern, you've got to be a little bit better with using the microphone, I have them having the microphone closer to your mouth, pointing in the right direction, not moving about too much. But if you can master that and use the microphone that you're using, I think that's a wonderful way to start.
Jonny Ross
Yeah, and not all of us can have the the lovely microphone that you've set up that you've got over there, which you're always adding to and I like what do you call it the thing that's behind the microphone? Is it like a sound cloud? Or what?
David Bain
Essentially, is a mini sound booth? So it could be it could be, could be 10 pairs of tights. But no, it's so many signs that the listener as opposed to the viewer would just be wondering what on earth we're talking about. But I've got
Jonny Ross
a listening, it looks really cool.
David Bain
I've got a super 55 assur microphone. And I wouldn't recommend this as a starter microphone, because you have to be very consistent where you're standing. We had a little discussion discussion beforehand, john, and you're amazed that I moved the microphone about two feet away from me. And it was silence I was talking away, but it was silence you just you need to be in a very definitive place in front of the microphone. But what are the challenges as well as the can't speak directly into the microphone, because you've got to get what's called plosives little book bursts of error associated with peas and bees, I'm not going to do that just now. Because that's gonna upset the listeners ears. And then it's not completely top of the range in terms of the audio quality, I do have a couple of slight compressions and emphasis on certain frequencies in my voice before. Even the same way of hits the the live stream if we were doing a live stream. So there's a lot going on. But I like the look of it. So that's why I went for it.
Jonny Ross
Let's just do a little play what to call it plosive. Lucy low
David Bain
six. Yeah. So I'm really not going to speak directly into the microphone, because I'll probably offend someone's ears. And knowing me, I'll probably want to clear it up and post production before it goes out into audio Anyway, there's no point in doing it.
Jonny Ross
Fair enough. Okay. So So yeah, there's, there's just been lots of good reasons. And it was just, I just needed to find the time. And, and the thing that's kept me going is, I just keep really enjoying it. And, and it's lots of variety, lots of speaking to lots of different people, different types of people. And you know, the great thing about it is, you know, it's worldwide, you not only can you have listeners anywhere in the world, but you can speak to anyone in the world, anywhere in the world as well. So it's, it's really just, I've really enjoyed it.
David Bain
Yeah, I think consistency, we've said that a couple of times is absolutely key. If you don't feel like doing something, but you've committed to publish something on a certain date, and you say that you publish every second Wednesday, every Monday, whatever data you publish on, then it's a wonderful way just to keep you on track and just ensure that you actually do deliver to your audience that there's nothing better in my opinion. In fact, I've been a little bit inconsistent with the relaunch of Digital Marketing Radio, just to let the make the listener aware of that of what I'm doing what I'm planning what I'm experimenting with. So Digital Marketing Radio used to be very, very consistent and fairly popular, but in 2014, and 2017. And I took a big hate hiatus. And then I've recently rebranded and I'm experimenting with a few different things, a few different ways of publishing, doing it live not doing live doing on video as well, doing audio only doing pre recorded and tweaking the whole structure of the show a little bit. But I'm getting to a stage where where I'm relatively happy with what the structure looks like at the moment. So I guess my question for my listener is, what would the ideal publishing frequency of Digital Marketing Radio look like? Would it be on a weekly basis? Would it be a couple of times a week even more regular than that? Less regular than a weekly basis? How many times a week would you actually listen? You know if you could possibly tweet me at David Bain or even email me David at Digital Marketing radio.com just to give a little bit of feedback and tell me what kind of frequency you would prefer that would be that would be useful. But Johnny nodding away in the background there and listening to my commercial.
Jonny Ross
No, Elaine, I know that you've been toying with the diff frequency and how to fit that in your schedule. And I know it's something that, you know, we've discussed and you're trying to work out. And I think it would be really valuable to hear from your listeners as to what they would want, what they'd listened to. And I think that could help you with some of your decision making. So I think that's a really good call asking people,
David Bain
you know, something that I picked up from Terry Wogan, who was a very popular radio presenter in the UK, he was once asked the question, can you believe that you've got 9 million listeners every single time that someone you do a show, he said, I don't have 9 million listeners, I have one listener. And that's how he considered each show. Every time he spoke to the listener, he didn't speak to listeners he spoke to listener. And generally people listen to podcasts by themselves. So if you refer to people as listeners, then they're a bit disassociated by what you're saying. But if you say listener, then you're talking to them personally. And they're more likely, hopefully to have your message resonate with them. That's the theory anyway.
Jonny Ross
Well, it's, it's really true. Because if we go back to blog writing, you know, how many times I used to say to someone, make sure that you use the word you and you're in the blog, make sure you're talking to that person. And I think that's, that's really important. And in fact, in any marketing, when you're sending an email, when you're doing a tweet, when you're doing something on Instagram, you should always be thinking of one person. And you might have multiple personas. But today, I'm talking to this particular person, persona, and it's this particular person, and it should always be getting it down to one person. I agree. And, and, you know, podcasting is so intimate with, with with listening, because in a lot of people listen to it with headphones in they are, as you say they're on their own, lots different times could be, you know, middle of the night that people are listening. And I think I think that's a really good point, David.
David Bain
But let's segue to part two of our discussion. So it's time for Johnny's thoughts on the state of digital marketing today. So let's start off with SECRET SOFTWARE. So Johnny share a lesser-known martech tool with it's bringing you a lot of value at the moment and why that tool was important for you.
Jonny Ross
I'm going to go for keep on the theme of podcasting, and go for captivate. So this was the podcasting platform that that just made it so easy for me to start producing a podcast and have it delivered out to Spotify to Apple and to MIT, and to Google and to many others. And so I'd probably say, you know, that's the tool of choice right now. It's working really well for me. And, and so that's the one I'd go for moving on
David Bain
from something that you currently use to something that you're going to use. So that is NEXT ON THE LIST. So what's one marketing activity or tool that you haven't tried yet, but you want to test in?
Jonny Ross
I've heard quite a bit about Jarvis AI. And that's where I think stuffs written for you by AI. I'd quite like to see if it's got any value. And it's what you've used, David,
David Bain
it is something that I've experimented with. Yes, I've had a couple of people suggest that actually. And I was a little bit disappointed when I used it that I think the limits of at 500 words that you can generate. And I was hoping to be able to generate something longer than that. I can perhaps understand why maybe they think there's potential to to spam and perhaps even overload their system, I'm not sure. So they really want to encourage, it's used for things like headlines or writing small paragraphs. But it's not. The cost isn't insignificant. So for that kind of job, I think you have to be a regular content writer and maybe a regular writer of relatively small tanks to really take advantage of it. But I mean, that's my initial feeling and understanding of it. What were you thinking of using it for?
Jonny Ross
Yeah, I've not had a chance to really think about it. I've heard lots of talk about it. I'm not. I think the thing I'd seen it useful was writing Facebook ads. I don't know if it's going to be able to achieve that. I fancy having a play. But yeah, potentially you might have put me off a bit.
David Bain
Well, that wasn't my intention to put you or any listener off. I think it depends on an individual's own circumstances and use case scenario. So it's certainly something worthwhile experimenting with given by the fact that it's not just you, Johnny. That's some recommending or saying that you intend to have a look at it and interesting way of perhaps changing the way that content is done in the future, but let's Maybe part of that for now, and move on to this or that route. So this is a quick response range. 10 quick questions, Just 2 rules here. Try not to think about the answer too much. And you're only allowed to see the word both on one occasion, so use it wisely. Are you ready?
Jonny Ross
Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready.
David Bain
Tick Tock or Twitter. Tick tock, Facebook, or LinkedIn.
Jonny Ross
Oh, god, oh, I'm gonna use my both
David Bain
YouTube or podcast, a podcast, traffic or leads, traffic or leads? leads, paid search or SEO, SEO, of course, ads or influencers? influences Google ads or Facebook ads?
Jonny Ross
More depends, doesn't it? Facebook ads,
David Bain
email marketing or chat marketing? Email Marketing, Mar tech stack or all on one platform? Oh, why
Jonny Ross
I'm struggling with that right now. I I've got to pick one. I want all in one platform, but I'm knowing
David Bain
when to one or scale. Scale. Wow. I think you use your booth a little bit too early. Certainly. There were challenges that you had certainly I'm just having a think about. Even the first one. I was surprised that you said Tick Tock over Twitter. So are you actively using Tick Tock at the moment? Maybe I should be? Why?
Jonny Ross
Well, why? Okay, so no, no, that's a fair question. But why? Okay, so so personally, I think Twitter is for people complaining and wanting to keep up with the news and the service. That's okay. That's how I see. That's how I see Twitter right now.
David Bain
Okay. Am I am I wrong in interpreting using complaining by saying customer service? Or is it just Yeah, good.
Jonny Ross
Customer Service? Yeah. Customer Service? Yeah. Yeah. And in terms of Tick Tock. I see that as the growth platform, if I want to be engaging with businesses, if you have a look at the the growing age group on there right now is the 24 to 35 year olds, and that age group are decision makers in businesses right now. So if I want to be engaging with businesses in my area, and across the UK, I need to be where the people are. And no, I'm not currently doing it. But where should I be? If I had the choice of tik tok or Twitter, it would have to be
David Bain
Tick Tock. Interesting. Okay, well, let's move on to the $10,000. Question. If I were to give you $10,000, and you had to spend it over the next few days in a single thing to grow your business, what would you spend it on? And how would you measure success?
Jonny Ross
I think Bill Gates said that if you had $1, left, spend it on PR. And I'd have to say I'd put the whole 10 grand into PR, because what what can what beats someone else saying you're good at doing something? And I don't think you can beat that. So I think it would have to go into PR how I'd measure it PR is difficult to measure. But it would be based on leads generated from that day or week or from that campaign.
David Bain
So how do you generate successful PR for a marketing agency nowadays? Is it data driven? For example, you do have to do your own research and come up with some great stats that people maybe haven't heard of beforehand, and then give that to a pra PR agency to share? Or is there some other way of doing it better?
Jonny Ross
Well, I think I think the ideal PR is actually doing PR around one of your clients and you being involved in how they've grown or how they've succeeded. And you being seen as the expert that's made that happen for them. And that I think is the best type of PR.
David Bain
That's great answer grant, sir. Okay, well, to finish off, this
Jonny Ross
is very kind of you, David. Yeah, I
David Bain
didn't say that to the rest of them. But no, no. Finish off by shifting the focus to someone else who deserves it so that as a MAGICAL MARKETER, who's an up and coming marketer that you'd like to give a shout out to what can we learn from them and where can we find them?
Jonny Ross
So this is someone I interviewed on my podcast a few weeks ago. I'm not going to be able to pronounce her name correctly. I apologise right now, Katrin Villa ma Oates. Singh is a name. She's based in Estonia. She's a Facebook ad expert. And wow, does she know about her Facebook ads? And some of the strategy she's using? Really clever. So you know, no. So I mean, it's, it's it's just, you know, It's it's thinking about that journey. It's no longer just an ad that you put on Facebook hoping that someone's going to do something. It's about taking the user on a journey on a number of different adverts creating lots of different types of look alike audiences, and yet really impressed with her
David Bain
wonderful stuff. So there we go. That was Episode 262 of Digital Marketing Radio where Johnny Ross from fleet marketing shared some great insights about podcasting to begin with. I like the fact that Johnny, you were talking about podcasting, from a growing of personal relationships perspective, the fact that you're not necessarily doing podcasting to measure how many people have listened to or downloaded or maybe conventional statistics. It's all about growing your authority and having great fun doing it as well doing it because you enjoy doing it producing the content. And also using podcasting as the centre the epicentre of your content marketing efforts, your ongoing hub content, it gives you an opportunity to produce social media posts produce a video at the same time as well. So it's a great way of producing efficient ongoing content. And as SECRET SOFTWARE you say you share to captivate I'm also using captivate. For my podcast host shout out to mark Asquith, the founder of captivate great service there. NEXT ON THE LIST for you it was Jarvis AI, you'd heard a lot about Jarvis AI and about using artificial intelligence to create new content. It's certainly something that's coming whether it's completely ready for most forms of content now, I guess is up in the air, but it's certainly something to experiment with and see if it's right for your particular business. And finally, your MAGICAL MARKETER. Yes, you've given the name to me, and I've got to pronounce it as well, which apparently is catrine phillimore ottesen. If it's pronounced incorrectly, it's Johnny's fault. It's pronounced correctly. Thank you very much. You're welcome. And Facebook has apparently is our speciality I will include links to her and all the software that you recommended there in the show notes at Digital Marketing radio.com. Johnny, what's the best social platform for someone to follow you and to say Hi,
Jonny Ross
LinkedIn typically certainly on Twitter as well at Johnny Ross, but if you find me on LinkedIn, feel free to connect. I'm just a really quick plug. I am looking for a new set of listeners on my podcast the Johnny Ross audio experience so please do contact me. I may well be interested in speaking to
David Bain
a new set of listeners that would listeners were terrible. Yeah, you want these new
Jonny Ross
listeners? Sorry, listeners was totally said, Yes. I met guests, I apologise. I'm looking for a totally new set of guests and reaching into into very different people. So if you've got an inspiring story, if you've got a business with with good growth or if you're a marketeer, and fancy being a guest on my show, please do get in touch.
David Bain
Go with your host David Bain. You can also find me producing podcasts and YouTube shows for B2B brands over at Casting cred.com until we meet again, stay hungry, stay foolish and stay subscribed. Aloha radio.com radio.com Digital Marketing Radio, to marine radio, Digital Marketing Radio
Digital Marketing Radio Episode 262. Where does a podcast fit into your content marketing mix?
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Digital Marketing Radio with David Bain
David Bain
I'm David Bain. And this is Digital Marketing Radio, the show for in-house agency and entrepreneurial marketers who wants to stay on top of that. He says tools, tactics and trends I shared right here by today's modern marketing masters. Now, are you thinking of starting a podcast? If so, what are your reasons for doing so? There are well over 2 million podcasts now. But what is the commercial value of starting and publishing a regular podcast? And where does a podcast fit into your overall content marketing mix? There was just two of the questions that I'm going to be asking him but my guest on Digital Marketing, Radio 262. He is a digital marketing strategist with a strong background in SEO, web design and training. And he heads up fleet marketing. And of course, he has his own podcast to the Jonny Ross audio experience. Welcome to DMR Jonny Ross.
Jonny Ross
Hi. Thanks for having me. How are you?
David Bain
Yeah, we're good. Thanks, Jonny. And how are you? Yeah,
Jonny Ross
fine. Not bad at all. Thank you. It's great to be here. And excited to be talking about podcasting.
David Bain
Indeed, indeed. So I'll just say you can find Johnny over at fleek dot marketing. So, Johnny, you started your podcast back in March 2020? Why?
Jonny Ross
Oh, that's a good question, isn't it? Okay, so I have known that podcasting is something that is, is a real big part of any marketing mix nowadays. And I just think I've been so involved in the business and delivering work for clients that, you know, it's difficult as a business entity to step back, isn't it and COVID came along, March 2008, gave me that ability to step back and sort of just redress everything. And I did that in a matter of days. And there was a, there was a friend that had just starts to podcast, I ended up on a screen share with her and she was like, Oh, you know, I've done, you know, weeks of training and into the like, you know, a buddy system with, you know, I think the mumps actually, they've done loads of stuff. Anyway, she showed me some stuff. And within, I think about two hours, I'd already had a graphic design that already signed up to a platform that was going to deliver the podcast. And I think I probably had my first guest signed up. So it was just, you know, if I'm going to make something happen, I'll do it. And I just got excited later, didn't you? Yeah. I just haven't had the right time or the opportunity.
David Bain
So maybe a better question then is why have you stuck with the podcast? Because we're more than maybe a year and a half or so after that? No, but you're consistently publishing episodes? Yeah,
Jonny Ross
I think I've just done just recorded 40 number 43. And I think because I get I just get a lot from it. I really enjoy it. And and I get a huge amount from it. And and I think I know, it's probably your second question, but I think it's really relevant, which is, you know, where does it Where does the podcast fit in? And for years, I was always banging on about blogging. And blogging was for me the core of the strategy. And I actually think it's flipped to podcasting. And in fact, actually, what is blogging? Well, it's just written word, isn't it? And podcasting is spoken word. So there's no real difference. It's just that the format's changed. So that means central content, I think is the is the core of any marketing campaign. And so I've just moved from blogging to podcasting as as the thing that's in the middle. But of course, you can take your podcasts and turn them into into blogs. So
David Bain
So what's changed? I mean, you obviously started out, potentially, even with a cause with a reason for doing it back then when we just went into lockdown. To a certain degree, we just come out of lockdown. But things have changed in terms of your business and the way that you produce podcasts. And the reason why you produce podcasts, I'm sure so I guess one of the things, what are the main things that have changed between back then when you did number one, and recently when you did Episode Number 43? Yeah, I
Jonny Ross
think actually. It it could be it doesn't, it doesn't need to have been COVID it that's changed it. Because you're right, there has been a significant change of the sort of content I was doing for the first few months to what I'm doing now. But actually, that's just like in any business it should marry that's not quite the right word, but marry up with what's going on around you and what's what, what what's topical. And so for me in the early days, it was around you know, lots of businesses struggling and not knowing which direction to go in and seeking advice and so in the early days it was around sort of, you know what to do during COVID. And what help is out there and different directions you should be thinking about and taking. Whereas now it's moulded back to what I've always done, which is just giving great value, and lots of tips and tricks on on marketing. And, and I think, I think the what, what's also been been quite good is finding people that are, you know, quite inspirational, or have had big grow for, or have a marketing element within their business and not just talking to marketeers and not just talking to talking about digital marketing all the time, but also just bringing that real business element into it and, and the hearing from, from different people. Really,
David Bain
I think one thing that you've alluded to your why you enjoy it, and hearing from different people, is perhaps one of the main reasons why you do a podcast is actually the quality of the relationships that you make and build with your guests. Is that your primary reason why you actually do your podcast, you think?
Jonny Ross
Yeah, there's no question that that's a huge element. It's, it's a, it's an opportunity to build a relationship to learn, you know, how can you not learn when you're, when you're talking to, to other businesses that have grown or have got ideas or over or successful. And so it's, so for me, it's a way of learning, it's a way of developing it's a way of building relationships. But I, you know, the other element is I really enjoy, I've always enjoyed, you know, I fancy myself as a radio DJ. And so I've always enjoyed, to some extent entertaining, and just putting good content out there. And so, so it plays to that as well. And it plays to the real important part, which, for me, which is giving me something to be able to engage with my existing clients and to engage with potential future clients as well.
David Bain
So do you attempt to measure the commercial value of having a podcast? Or is that not really possible to do with in general?
Jonny Ross
Well, I think it's important to measure the commercial aspect. But for me, it's not been the focus up until recently, up until now, until recently, I think it's, you know, it's, it's playing to it's playing to a number of different things that actually, from a commercial point of view, it doesn't really matter. But I think, you know, I think that all comes back to why you set up a podcast in the first place, or what's your objective? What's, what's your goals? What are you trying to get out of this? And I think there are ways of measuring that, you know, I think there's lots of different ways to measure and tools to measure just like you would measure, blogging, or
David Bain
vlogging. One of the ways that I think about the value of having a podcast is that a podcast is hub content episode of content. And you've got, certainly from Google's perspective, the three h content marketing model, you've got your hero content, your help content and your hub content. I've tried to bring other ages into it. But that's another story. We'll perhaps leave that aside for the moment. But with regards to that way of thinking about it, of looking at it that lens, then it would essentially mean that a podcast was for people that had already heard about you, for people that perhaps weren't ready to buy yet from you. But it gave you an opportunity to build your authority for weeks, months, and perhaps even longer than that until they're ready to buy. And then because you've demonstrated that authority, you've kept your brand in mind, and they'll come back to you and then they'll be ready to purchase from you in the future. So that's how I view podcasting. Certainly, from a B2B perspective, I do think along similar lines,
Jonny Ross
yeah, although I think I think, you know, and I'm sure you think this, but it's certainly not said it just then is I still think the there's a very important part there, which is also engaging existing clients. So that's around, you know, one of the lessons that I've learned many years ago was ensure as a good business delivers value, lots and lots of value. So always over delivers. And for me, podcasting is a way to continually offer further value to existing clients. So whilst it's a huge B2B word has completely gone out of mind case for podcasting to to win new business. It's at the same time, it's about keeping that business but also, you know, by engaging existing clients, existing clients will end up spending more when will end up telling more people and so it's sort of all fits together? Yeah.
David Bain
So do you actively market to existing clients then do email them about the content that you're publishing and have a reason behind it to actually, hopefully keep them longer than your average client?
Jonny Ross
Yeah, so listen, let's, let's be frank here. Do I always practice what I preach? No. Does a will solicitor have a will? Not always. And, you know, I'm just as busy in my own businesses, as you know, many other people in their own businesses. But the best practice and where I want to be, is absolutely turning podcasts into emails, for example, to for, for current clients, for existing clients, for prospective clients, for contacts to be aware of podcast, so So yes, that's the ideal, and that's the best practice. Am I currently doing it? No, I'm not doing it well enough, whatsoever.
David Bain
And you're recording your podcasts and videos, weren't you? Yeah, so
Jonny Ross
the way I see it is, if I record via video, it gives me two types of content, I can go audio on Spotify, apple, etc. But I can also go video on YouTube. And I'm also recording it live. So delivering to YouTube Live delivering to Facebook and LinkedIn live at the same time, and then turning it into a podcast, my efficiency between times of something live that then gets turned into a podcast on Apple and Spotify needs improving. I think, I think it's not about the efficiency of the of turning it around to deliver onto Spotify and and an apple, it for me, it's more about if I deliver it there today, then I've got nothing in the bank for two for a week's time or two weeks time. So the way I've done it is I've sorted like to build up the the catalogue a bit before I share it, but then I've got to consider if something's gonna lie, yeah, yeah. And if something's gone out live as well already. You've got to consider that. So there's an in between? I think
David Bain
it is it's a challenge. There's no necessarily right solution. I think the rightest solution, if that's a word, would be simply the word consistency, and just deciding what you're doing it and committing to it. Yeah, yeah. So we should What about who should start a podcast? So if someone's listening, if someone's maybe an independent marketing consultants, and some kind of marketing professional that would like to talk about their expertise, build up their own brand authority a little bit? How would you persuade them to start a podcast and the reasons behind doing that?
Jonny Ross
I think there's a space for everyone, I think, I think the, the benefits far outweigh not doing it. So the opportunities are there. And it's, you know, it's those fundamental things is, it's a way to learn, it's a way to develop, it's a way to be creative. It's a way to create content. So that becomes your core of your marketing. So for me, you know, instead of struggling about what do I put on Instagram, what to put on Snapchat, what do I put on YouTube? What do I put on LinkedIn, actually, if you've got a consistent, whatever that is, weekly, bi weekly, whatever it might be, podcast, that can very easily be turned into tweets for Twitter posts for Instagram questions for Facebook debates on LinkedIn, snippets of video for different platforms, stiff bits of audio for different platforms. So so it, it fills the gap of, you know, what should I be? What should I be marketing? And, or how should I be marketing should I say, and so, so, I think, just in in those small number of reasons, I've given this loads there, that it's a bit of a no brainer, and as I said, it's a way to engage with existing and potential clients, there's not really a big barrier to entry. In fact, there's, there's, there's a very small barrier to entry. And, and actually, I would say the biggest barrier is having the confidence that you can do it. And, you know, apart from having a half decent microphone, a half decent webcam, setting up a podcast feed, which actually is really not difficult at all, it's you know, those are those are small barriers. The biggest barrier is actually just you know, committing to it and, and thinking about what content you're going to do.
David Bain
Yeah, I mean, you're set up, you've got a decent sound and you're just using the Samsung Qt you microphone, which is only about 70 pounds in the UK, probably about $100 or so it's a lovely, dynamic mic. microphones, you've got two different types of microphones that you can kind of probably choose from. It's a condenser microphone, which tends to pick up more in the room, such as a Blue Yeti, Blue Yeti produces a nice, warm sound, but I don't particularly like it because it picks up a little bit too much background noise. If you use a dynamic microphone, it's got what's called a small hiccup pattern, you've got to be a little bit better with using the microphone, I have them having the microphone closer to your mouth, pointing in the right direction, not moving about too much. But if you can master that and use the microphone that you're using, I think that's a wonderful way to start.
Jonny Ross
Yeah, and not all of us can have the the lovely microphone that you've set up that you've got over there, which you're always adding to and I like what do you call it the thing that's behind the microphone? Is it like a sound cloud? Or what?
David Bain
Essentially, is a mini sound booth? So it could be it could be, could be 10 pairs of tights. But no, it's so many signs that the listener as opposed to the viewer would just be wondering what on earth we're talking about. But I've got
Jonny Ross
a listening, it looks really cool.
David Bain
I've got a super 55 assur microphone. And I wouldn't recommend this as a starter microphone, because you have to be very consistent where you're standing. We had a little discussion discussion beforehand, john, and you're amazed that I moved the microphone about two feet away from me. And it was silence I was talking away, but it was silence you just you need to be in a very definitive place in front of the microphone. But what are the challenges as well as the can't speak directly into the microphone, because you've got to get what's called plosives little book bursts of error associated with peas and bees, I'm not going to do that just now. Because that's gonna upset the listeners ears. And then it's not completely top of the range in terms of the audio quality, I do have a couple of slight compressions and emphasis on certain frequencies in my voice before. Even the same way of hits the the live stream if we were doing a live stream. So there's a lot going on. But I like the look of it. So that's why I went for it.
Jonny Ross
Let's just do a little play what to call it plosive. Lucy low
David Bain
six. Yeah. So I'm really not going to speak directly into the microphone, because I'll probably offend someone's ears. And knowing me, I'll probably want to clear it up and post production before it goes out into audio Anyway, there's no point in doing it.
Jonny Ross
Fair enough. Okay. So So yeah, there's, there's just been lots of good reasons. And it was just, I just needed to find the time. And, and the thing that's kept me going is, I just keep really enjoying it. And, and it's lots of variety, lots of speaking to lots of different people, different types of people. And you know, the great thing about it is, you know, it's worldwide, you not only can you have listeners anywhere in the world, but you can speak to anyone in the world, anywhere in the world as well. So it's, it's really just, I've really enjoyed it.
David Bain
Yeah, I think consistency, we've said that a couple of times is absolutely key. If you don't feel like doing something, but you've committed to publish something on a certain date, and you say that you publish every second Wednesday, every Monday, whatever data you publish on, then it's a wonderful way just to keep you on track and just ensure that you actually do deliver to your audience that there's nothing better in my opinion. In fact, I've been a little bit inconsistent with the relaunch of Digital Marketing Radio, just to let the make the listener aware of that of what I'm doing what I'm planning what I'm experimenting with. So Digital Marketing Radio used to be very, very consistent and fairly popular, but in 2014, and 2017. And I took a big hate hiatus. And then I've recently rebranded and I'm experimenting with a few different things, a few different ways of publishing, doing it live not doing live doing on video as well, doing audio only doing pre recorded and tweaking the whole structure of the show a little bit. But I'm getting to a stage where where I'm relatively happy with what the structure looks like at the moment. So I guess my question for my listener is, what would the ideal publishing frequency of Digital Marketing Radio look like? Would it be on a weekly basis? Would it be a couple of times a week even more regular than that? Less regular than a weekly basis? How many times a week would you actually listen? You know if you could possibly tweet me at David Bain or even email me David at Digital Marketing radio.com just to give a little bit of feedback and tell me what kind of frequency you would prefer that would be that would be useful. But Johnny nodding away in the background there and listening to my commercial.
Jonny Ross
No, Elaine, I know that you've been toying with the diff frequency and how to fit that in your schedule. And I know it's something that, you know, we've discussed and you're trying to work out. And I think it would be really valuable to hear from your listeners as to what they would want, what they'd listened to. And I think that could help you with some of your decision making. So I think that's a really good call asking people,
David Bain
you know, something that I picked up from Terry Wogan, who was a very popular radio presenter in the UK, he was once asked the question, can you believe that you've got 9 million listeners every single time that someone you do a show, he said, I don't have 9 million listeners, I have one listener. And that's how he considered each show. Every time he spoke to the listener, he didn't speak to listeners he spoke to listener. And generally people listen to podcasts by themselves. So if you refer to people as listeners, then they're a bit disassociated by what you're saying. But if you say listener, then you're talking to them personally. And they're more likely, hopefully to have your message resonate with them. That's the theory anyway.
Jonny Ross
Well, it's, it's really true. Because if we go back to blog writing, you know, how many times I used to say to someone, make sure that you use the word you and you're in the blog, make sure you're talking to that person. And I think that's, that's really important. And in fact, in any marketing, when you're sending an email, when you're doing a tweet, when you're doing something on Instagram, you should always be thinking of one person. And you might have multiple personas. But today, I'm talking to this particular person, persona, and it's this particular person, and it should always be getting it down to one person. I agree. And, and, you know, podcasting is so intimate with, with with listening, because in a lot of people listen to it with headphones in they are, as you say they're on their own, lots different times could be, you know, middle of the night that people are listening. And I think I think that's a really good point, David.
David Bain
But let's segue to part two of our discussion. So it's time for Johnny's thoughts on the state of digital marketing today. So let's start off with SECRET SOFTWARE. So Johnny share a lesser-known martech tool with it's bringing you a lot of value at the moment and why that tool was important for you.
Jonny Ross
I'm going to go for keep on the theme of podcasting, and go for captivate. So this was the podcasting platform that that just made it so easy for me to start producing a podcast and have it delivered out to Spotify to Apple and to MIT, and to Google and to many others. And so I'd probably say, you know, that's the tool of choice right now. It's working really well for me. And, and so that's the one I'd go for moving on
David Bain
from something that you currently use to something that you're going to use. So that is NEXT ON THE LIST. So what's one marketing activity or tool that you haven't tried yet, but you want to test in?
Jonny Ross
I've heard quite a bit about Jarvis AI. And that's where I think stuffs written for you by AI. I'd quite like to see if it's got any value. And it's what you've used, David,
David Bain
it is something that I've experimented with. Yes, I've had a couple of people suggest that actually. And I was a little bit disappointed when I used it that I think the limits of at 500 words that you can generate. And I was hoping to be able to generate something longer than that. I can perhaps understand why maybe they think there's potential to to spam and perhaps even overload their system, I'm not sure. So they really want to encourage, it's used for things like headlines or writing small paragraphs. But it's not. The cost isn't insignificant. So for that kind of job, I think you have to be a regular content writer and maybe a regular writer of relatively small tanks to really take advantage of it. But I mean, that's my initial feeling and understanding of it. What were you thinking of using it for?
Jonny Ross
Yeah, I've not had a chance to really think about it. I've heard lots of talk about it. I'm not. I think the thing I'd seen it useful was writing Facebook ads. I don't know if it's going to be able to achieve that. I fancy having a play. But yeah, potentially you might have put me off a bit.
David Bain
Well, that wasn't my intention to put you or any listener off. I think it depends on an individual's own circumstances and use case scenario. So it's certainly something worthwhile experimenting with given by the fact that it's not just you, Johnny. That's some recommending or saying that you intend to have a look at it and interesting way of perhaps changing the way that content is done in the future, but let's Maybe part of that for now, and move on to this or that route. So this is a quick response range. 10 quick questions, Just 2 rules here. Try not to think about the answer too much. And you're only allowed to see the word both on one occasion, so use it wisely. Are you ready?
Jonny Ross
Oh, wow. Yeah, I'm ready. I'm ready. I'm ready.
David Bain
Tick Tock or Twitter. Tick tock, Facebook, or LinkedIn.
Jonny Ross
Oh, god, oh, I'm gonna use my both
David Bain
YouTube or podcast, a podcast, traffic or leads, traffic or leads? leads, paid search or SEO, SEO, of course, ads or influencers? influences Google ads or Facebook ads?
Jonny Ross
More depends, doesn't it? Facebook ads,
David Bain
email marketing or chat marketing? Email Marketing, Mar tech stack or all on one platform? Oh, why
Jonny Ross
I'm struggling with that right now. I I've got to pick one. I want all in one platform, but I'm knowing
David Bain
when to one or scale. Scale. Wow. I think you use your booth a little bit too early. Certainly. There were challenges that you had certainly I'm just having a think about. Even the first one. I was surprised that you said Tick Tock over Twitter. So are you actively using Tick Tock at the moment? Maybe I should be? Why?
Jonny Ross
Well, why? Okay, so no, no, that's a fair question. But why? Okay, so so personally, I think Twitter is for people complaining and wanting to keep up with the news and the service. That's okay. That's how I see. That's how I see Twitter right now.
David Bain
Okay. Am I am I wrong in interpreting using complaining by saying customer service? Or is it just Yeah, good.
Jonny Ross
Customer Service? Yeah. Customer Service? Yeah. Yeah. And in terms of Tick Tock. I see that as the growth platform, if I want to be engaging with businesses, if you have a look at the the growing age group on there right now is the 24 to 35 year olds, and that age group are decision makers in businesses right now. So if I want to be engaging with businesses in my area, and across the UK, I need to be where the people are. And no, I'm not currently doing it. But where should I be? If I had the choice of tik tok or Twitter, it would have to be
David Bain
Tick Tock. Interesting. Okay, well, let's move on to the $10,000. Question. If I were to give you $10,000, and you had to spend it over the next few days in a single thing to grow your business, what would you spend it on? And how would you measure success?
Jonny Ross
I think Bill Gates said that if you had $1, left, spend it on PR. And I'd have to say I'd put the whole 10 grand into PR, because what what can what beats someone else saying you're good at doing something? And I don't think you can beat that. So I think it would have to go into PR how I'd measure it PR is difficult to measure. But it would be based on leads generated from that day or week or from that campaign.
David Bain
So how do you generate successful PR for a marketing agency nowadays? Is it data driven? For example, you do have to do your own research and come up with some great stats that people maybe haven't heard of beforehand, and then give that to a pra PR agency to share? Or is there some other way of doing it better?
Jonny Ross
Well, I think I think the ideal PR is actually doing PR around one of your clients and you being involved in how they've grown or how they've succeeded. And you being seen as the expert that's made that happen for them. And that I think is the best type of PR.
David Bain
That's great answer grant, sir. Okay, well, to finish off, this
Jonny Ross
is very kind of you, David. Yeah, I
David Bain
didn't say that to the rest of them. But no, no. Finish off by shifting the focus to someone else who deserves it so that as a MAGICAL MARKETER, who's an up and coming marketer that you'd like to give a shout out to what can we learn from them and where can we find them?
Jonny Ross
So this is someone I interviewed on my podcast a few weeks ago. I'm not going to be able to pronounce her name correctly. I apologise right now, Katrin Villa ma Oates. Singh is a name. She's based in Estonia. She's a Facebook ad expert. And wow, does she know about her Facebook ads? And some of the strategy she's using? Really clever. So you know, no. So I mean, it's, it's it's just, you know, It's it's thinking about that journey. It's no longer just an ad that you put on Facebook hoping that someone's going to do something. It's about taking the user on a journey on a number of different adverts creating lots of different types of look alike audiences, and yet really impressed with her
David Bain
wonderful stuff. So there we go. That was Episode 262 of Digital Marketing Radio where Johnny Ross from fleet marketing shared some great insights about podcasting to begin with. I like the fact that Johnny, you were talking about podcasting, from a growing of personal relationships perspective, the fact that you're not necessarily doing podcasting to measure how many people have listened to or downloaded or maybe conventional statistics. It's all about growing your authority and having great fun doing it as well doing it because you enjoy doing it producing the content. And also using podcasting as the centre the epicentre of your content marketing efforts, your ongoing hub content, it gives you an opportunity to produce social media posts produce a video at the same time as well. So it's a great way of producing efficient ongoing content. And as SECRET SOFTWARE you say you share to captivate I'm also using captivate. For my podcast host shout out to mark Asquith, the founder of captivate great service there. NEXT ON THE LIST for you it was Jarvis AI, you'd heard a lot about Jarvis AI and about using artificial intelligence to create new content. It's certainly something that's coming whether it's completely ready for most forms of content now, I guess is up in the air, but it's certainly something to experiment with and see if it's right for your particular business. And finally, your MAGICAL MARKETER. Yes, you've given the name to me, and I've got to pronounce it as well, which apparently is catrine phillimore ottesen. If it's pronounced incorrectly, it's Johnny's fault. It's pronounced correctly. Thank you very much. You're welcome. And Facebook has apparently is our speciality I will include links to her and all the software that you recommended there in the show notes at Digital Marketing radio.com. Johnny, what's the best social platform for someone to follow you and to say Hi,
Jonny Ross
LinkedIn typically certainly on Twitter as well at Johnny Ross, but if you find me on LinkedIn, feel free to connect. I'm just a really quick plug. I am looking for a new set of listeners on my podcast the Johnny Ross audio experience so please do contact me. I may well be interested in speaking to
David Bain
a new set of listeners that would listeners were terrible. Yeah, you want these new
Jonny Ross
listeners? Sorry, listeners was totally said, Yes. I met guests, I apologise. I'm looking for a totally new set of guests and reaching into into very different people. So if you've got an inspiring story, if you've got a business with with good growth or if you're a marketeer, and fancy being a guest on my show, please do get in touch.
David Bain
Go with your host David Bain. You can also find me producing podcasts and YouTube shows for B2B brands over at Casting cred.com until we meet again, stay hungry, stay foolish and stay subscribed. Aloha radio.com radio.com Digital Marketing Radio, to marine radio, Digital Marketing Radio
