Shibari: Why Would Anyone Want to Be Tied Up? with Sophia Rose

speaker-0: For centuries in feudal Japan, rope was used to bind prisoners. The knots were precise and codified. Over time it transformed. The aesthetics and techniques migrated into theatre, into erotic art, and eventually into the kink world. The rope went from an instrument of punishment and capture to an instrument of pleasure and self discovery. It's called Shibari, and what's most interesting isn't the rope. It's what tends to surface when someone is meditatively and carefully bound. Things about how tightly they've been holding on and what they've been afraid to feel. Today we're talking to somebody who has spent over a decade watching people discover things about themselves through rope, and who is, by her own admission, still learning a whole lot about herself too.
speaker-1: Yeah
speaker-2: Most of us were given a cookie cutter template for how to live, love, and succeed. But what if you don't fit that mold? What if you're ready to live a little differently? Even if that makes you the odd one out.
speaker-0: We're Nyla and Cole, two people questioning the systems, the stories, and the identities that shape us. From politics to pleasure, culture to connection, this is where taboo meets truth.
speaker-2: If you've ever felt like a black sheep, cycle breaker, or someone who doesn't quite fit the cookie-cutter mold, then you're a deviant just like us. Alright, Sophia Rose is a London-based BDSM practitioner specializing in rope bondage. She's been working in this world since 2013, and she describes her approach beautifully. The pleasure is in the process, not the end result. Welcome to Deviant, Sophia.
speaker-1: Hi, thanks so much for having me.
speaker-0: To have you.
speaker-2: So let's start out. Tell us a little bit about how you ended up here. Maybe ⁓ what is your experience of off script living as we like to say?
speaker-1: I guess I ended up in this line of work, not because I woke up one day and said, yay, I want to become somebody who ties people up and teaches about BDSM and kink for a living, but actually because I was exploring myself and finding my way and learning about my own relationship to relationships and pleasure and the possibilities of that in. what used to be much more of an underground subculture in London around 12 plus years ago. And somehow, long story short, and I'm sure we can fill in the gaps through our conversation, I ended up turning a lot of self-exploration into skills and holding space for other people. That's the long story short.
speaker-2: Yeah, we'll definitely be double clicking on a lot of those points. So I'm I'm a newbie to the idea of rote bondage. I I haven't dabbled in it myself. Can you explain what Shibari is and i is that a subcomponent of rote bondage? Give me a quick crash course please.
speaker-0: Go for it.
speaker-1: So Shibari literally means to tie in Japanese. And I would say it's really helpful to understand that a lot of the language that is used in Shibari or like Japanese specific rope bondage, people do the same things in what you might describe as like Western rope bondage or just rope bondage full stop. But in Japanese style rope bondage, there is more of a focus on the different kinds of aesthetic. a different kind of approach to timing, pace, power, eroticism, the narrative of the tying rather than rope as a tool to do something else. The rope itself is the play rather than the rope is the route to something else. And there's a whole other history that would really encourage people to seek out and learn because rope bondage in Japan has a very specific cultural context, like other types of kink and BDSM in other parts of the world, maybe like in the UK, caning is very popular, or it has a specific cultural relevance because caning was used in schools in the UK here. Right. Or, you know, whips in other parts of the world or bondage in other parts of the world might have a different kind of significance. So in Japan, there's a specific significance with rope. And that's why sometimes I say that I do rope bondage or Japanese inspired rope bondage, but I'm not Japanese. So also my understanding is through my own lens, my own experiences. I'll stop there so you can ask me any more questions.
speaker-2: Yeah, I've I've got like fifteen questions. Like it seems like it grew out of the martial art of prisoner bondage. Just the the the practicality of before there were handcuffs, how do we tie up prisoners? Yeah. And like many Japanese martial arts, it became very complex and intricate and then it evolved into eroticism.
speaker-1: Well, I think it's really helpful for people to try to separate or distinguish that how we practice today is not like it's inspired by, but it's not directly related to or evolved out of hojujitsu. Even though some of the patterns or some of the ties that you see, however, people will subvert or play with the very things that are like real in their history. like in the States. There's a big leather scene and a big kind of eroticism of uniforms, like cops. Like in the gay BDSM scene in the States, there's a big emphasis on leather culture and uniforms, same in Germany.
speaker-2: The the village people are just a lineup of all the kinks and the American
speaker-1: Exactly. Exactly. And so in Japan, there's a specific kind of connection or eroticism of rope because it was a tool that was used for a long time historically to tie and capture people. But also in Japan, there is an emphasis in general on like wrapping and binding, like even clothing. Yeah, furashiki, the wrapping of gifts. So there's also I guess an attention to like precision and detail and aesthetic and beauty that ties into the way that maybe Japanese rope bondage is practiced a little differently or approached differently to Western style rope bondage.
speaker-0: I love this distinction between using it as a process itself versus as an instrument to the next step. I think that's a great way of distinguishing it because I find that the art of tying in the kind of Shibari form, it feels like a meditative process almost that you're engaging with with someone. Almost the silence that comes with it takes a little bit of time to tie and the kind of quietness between you and your noticing your breath and noticing tightness and sensation in those. moments versus just rushing to like tie an arm over here and a leg over there and just kind of getting to what happens.
speaker-2: Means to an end.
speaker-1: And it can be both because there's also a lot of Japanese style rope that is used in porn or performance that is more dynamic or maybe spectacular in its pace and its intensity. And there is also, I guess one of the things that people really appreciate is the ability to be very simple or very minimal with rope, not as something to... do more fancy aesthetic things with, but actually something to bring you a little bit more in touch with your partner and their inner erotic senses, their breathing, their sense of surrender, their excitement, their apprehension. And that's often when you see people tying in a more stripped back way, as you said, focusing more on like breath and touch and waiting rather than just rushing in to... do the next thing, but letting somebody respond to actions.
speaker-0: Yeah, and and even to feel like the rope touching or moving across your skin and the sensation of that. I think there's so many times in life where we we don't stop to notice those tiny details and how they can actually reconnect us to ourselves and get us out of our heads and I think particularly for a lot of women who can be really in their head all the time. Just those small details I I notice are game changing in entering like a state of presence in that moment.
speaker-1: Absolutely. And I think one of the things that rope really encourages is some space and time to allow that to happen because, know, handcuffs or leather or straps, they're on and they're off. You click them on, you click them off. Whereas rope, there's a real tactile, as you said, the brushing of the rope on the skin, the tightening as you make a knot, the wrapping to squeeze something tighter, also the untying process and how it... comes off. And I think that really changes the way that your brain and body can feel into pleasure versus you're bound and then you're free. With you become tied, you become bondaged, not just you're in it and then you're out of it.
speaker-2: It just sounds so different from your average porn movie made for a man at least, where it's like maybe there's a scene setting for thirty seconds and then there's just ten minutes of sex and then boom it's over. It sounds like the opposite of that in every way. It's about the whole journey up and down.
speaker-1: And that's also very much, also see people, I don't want to say that everybody's tying in that way because some people do rush in with rope or they enjoy playing a little bit faster or going more hard and intensely. But I think a lot of the reason why people enjoy or are attracted to rope bondage is because of that focus on enjoying every aspect, not just yet, getting to the end goal.
speaker-2: Race to the finish line.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's something I feel like I distinctly notice about rope plays that there's something really intentional about slowing down. And one of the things that I'm very aware of in in a situation like that is like how you're in each other's company in silence. And I feel like there's an intimacy in that that almost goes unspoken sometimes. Because usually there's some sound or you're I don't know, you're kissing, or you're both doing something, but like in this situation, one person is doing nothing. Literally, you're just being being tied and the other person is in that kind of very focused, concentrated space because there's a lot of intentionality behind what they're doing and how they're doing it and also like how they're moving you and you're just allowing them to do that. And that feels so different to yeah, moving at a faster pace where you're still thinking maybe what happens next.
speaker-1: And I would maybe kind of say that the person being tired is doing a lot actually. Like when I'm tying someone or being tied, I might be not, yeah, I might not be like doing, but I'm receptive and I'm inviting, which is a different way of doing. It's a different place of being, but there's something that you said about, I guess that kind of pausing invites a lot of vulnerability, which is...
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: quite intense, like there's a real intensity in giving somebody space actually, which is often what we're not used to. We're not used to experiencing that somebody just being with us, waiting for us, listening to us, inviting us. And so there's quite a acute intensity in the spaciousness and the minimalism of rope, which scares a lot of people, which is why people might rush actually, because they feel awkward in that moment and they don't know what to do with it. So being able to actually allow for pauses and nothingness is very exciting and also uncomfortable for a lot of us, understandably.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: I really struggle with silence. I just wanna those people. So it actually sounds like it could be very healthy for me in multiple ways.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah. And there are ways to, guess, bring a little bit more ease into that, that I sometimes think about. Like for instance, we talked about a little bit before, like using blindfolds can help people quite a lot to sink into that space of more anticipation, imagination and pause or humor as well. Like silence and awkwardness doesn't have to be serious. Like you can laugh, you can be silly, you can make a joke, you can break that. So. There's lots of ways to play with that vulnerability or that awkwardness that doesn't have to lead to like freak out, collapse or rushing to the next thing.
speaker-2: I actually love that. We don't allow enough humor in sex. There's this idea that sex has to be this really deep, serious thing all the time. ⁓ yeah. Then you're missing out on the fun you can have along the way. So I love that.
speaker-1: Sometimes I joke like if I'm tying somebody I might intentionally like really wait a long time and then they'll look at me as if to be like are you gonna start and I'm like maybe do you want me to do something? I wonder what you wish I would do next you know so you can yeah I think humor is so important and it allows us to bring a bit more realness into our pleasure rather than this serious super intense roles that we have to play.
speaker-0: Exactly. It's supposed to be fun. That's the whole point. ⁓ I'm curious about the ways in which you create these experiences with the people you work with. What are the different ways that you invite people into this experience? Could you say a bit more about that?
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: Exactly. Something that's quite funny that I found really helpful is on my website, I put like a load of kind of suggestion scenarios that you might enjoy because a lot of people are curious about being tied, but of course it's like, you don't know what's possible without knowing what's possible. You don't know what to ask for unless it's almost like you've never tried it. So it's not like a menu, but I kind of wrote some imaginary scenarios. Like I have one that's focusing on sensory deprivation and blindfolds and the senses. have one that's maybe talking a little bit more about eroticism and arousal, one that's more of like a captive scenario, like being overcome and captured and overpowered a little bit. And I think what's helpful is actually the first thing I say to most people or everybody is there's no one way that any of this should go. I don't have an expectation except that we spend some time together. I help create and facilitate a space for you where you get to explore something for yourself. Very vague. And of course I can help fill in the gaps, but I think actually decreasing any pressure of this is what you need to do. This is how it should look. This is how it needs to be. Aside from of course, boundaries, setting up some systems for communication and consent. Actually that freedom is very exciting. and allows for that playfulness, that curiosity. So providing lots of information, but also lots of spaciousness and then together filling in the gaps and finding things out together.
speaker-0: And are these one to one spaces or are there a group spaces usually?
speaker-1: Sessions are one-to-one or sometimes couples. see couples as well, which I really love. And sometimes that's for classes, like teaching people how to tie, but also sometimes it's like stepping in to tie someone in front of their partner or be like a third in an experience that people would like to have where some rope is involved, but they're not confident enough to use it in a certain way. I do find I prefer working. either in really small groups teaching or one-to-one because it's so intimate, it's so personal and it really requires attention and some kind of concentration on each other, which is harder if it's a really big group or lots of people around, changes it.
speaker-2: I have a friend who goes to Shabari sessions and she says it's multiple people in one space and I've always sort of wondered it sounds so intimate, so how do you it's not like practicing yoga together. It's a lot more personal.
speaker-1: Well, there's something that changes around voyeurism and exhibitionism and being seen. That's also something that can be either exciting for people, but also everybody's different. Some people feel safer in a space with lots of people around. Maybe it's more casual, it's more informal, or they really enjoy the social experience or being watched. And some people really need privacy, slowness, also in terms of like sensory input. It can be hard to focus on yourself when something else really exciting is happening, you know, three meters away from you. So it's about personal preference and needs. And that changes also over time based on where you're at in your exploration.
speaker-0: Yeah, I've seen a lot of like rope jams and things for people who are beginners where it's like an opportunity to learn how to do different kinds of knots and just it it's helpful to have others there because you kind of see how other people are doing and it becomes a bit more of a communal experience. So it's less about like you expecting to go and have like a really intimate experience for you or your partner there, but more about skill development probably.
speaker-1: Absolutely. And also I would say if somebody is solo outside of visiting a professional, like you're going to kind of book a professional session, it is the safest and best way to meet other people. I would not personally recommend going to someone's house that you've never met before to get tied up outside of like a boundary professional agreement where you know that person has references and experience. And even then it's a risk and there's always an element of risk in these situations, but I think you're right. going to group spaces much more about like skill sharing, meeting others in more of a low risk informal environment.
speaker-0: Yeah, totally. And we've talked about consent in kinks in previous episodes as well, and what that can look like and how actually the kind of radical transparency that comes with the kinds of consent and negotiation that happen between people practicing kink can be so refreshing in many ways. It allows people to be with an experience in a much more trusting and much more comfortable way, especially if they're maybe neurospicy in any way. So there's definitely a sense of comfort that comes from like being able to put on that. table what you're open to and what's just not present. And I feel like in many ways, because of everything we've just shared about the time and the space that it takes with tying, it's a little bit different in that there's a much longer build-up to the vulnerability. But sometimes I feel like just with that first I feel like the first time I went to a rope jam it was supposed to be about skill building, but I immediately felt like I wanted to cover my face. And it was interesting because I I didn't feel embarrassed, but in some ways it felt quite exposing. I was fully clothed. There's something it tapped into that was pretty deep. So I guess I just contradicted myself by saying it can take a long time to get vulnerable, but actually sometimes it Yeah
speaker-1: Yeah. And what you're naming around consent and boundaries, it kind of highlights that no matter what we think is going to happen or how we think we're going to feel, the opposite might happen. How you feel can often come out of nowhere. So when I think about consent and boundaries and these systems that we have in place, actually... None of them fully work. That's kind of, it's a, a little bit of advanced to say, I think none of them are actually fully safe. All of them have limitations. All of them can fail. So really it's about how do you set up building relationships with yourself and others that slow down that kind of, when that happens to you and create like tools for repair because. things will go wrong, whether it's a mistake or a misunderstanding, at very worst, something intentional, very rarely actually when, very rarely is it actually somebody has intentionally sought out to harm people. Often it's within relationships, misunderstandings, you didn't think that the thing that the person wanted to do was the same thing that you wanted to do, or you're on a different vibe.
speaker-2: You're hanging people with ropes. There's just a risk of
speaker-1: 100%. 100%. And I think actually that the most helpful thing we can do with consent is say, all of these tools, these things we're learning to feel safer, to feel more comfortable have limitations. So at no point can we ever say, this is fully foolproof and I'm safe. Actually part of our own responsibility and accountability to ourselves is maintaining a bit of that. Like, this is risky. Am I willing to take this risk with this person? What does it mean to take this risk with this person today?
speaker-2: Risk can be inherently erotic too, right? Taking a risk is part of the eroticism. Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. It is. And I think that's where the kind of fragility and also excitement of all of this lies is in, if it was fully safe, we also wouldn't find it hot. There has to be a little bit of like, Ooh, this is, that's the taboo element. It's like, it's bad to tie people up and spank them. Don't do that. That's why I want to do that. Ooh, that sounds fun. So if we sanitize it too much or try to make it too safe. We also remove the element which is arousing and we almost set people up to fuck up more by telling them like, this is a safe space. You know, it's actually not. Then how do you feel about it? Which is harder, I think sometimes to navigate, ultimately more leads you to, leads you to be a little bit more real about what you are and aren't willing to do.
speaker-0: I guess nothing's foolproof, right? And as you say, like it's about being conscious in that space and saying, How do I hold these risks in balance so that they still feel somewhat erotically charged for me? And then yeah, the aftercare becomes really important and finding comfort and like how you come out of an experience like that. Mm-hmm. I'm curious to learn a little bit more about the visuals and the aesthetics. Maybe share with our audience a little bit like what does this look like? Is this everything from tying someone's hands to like having someone suspended off a tree? Like can you give us a little bit of
speaker-2: I'm glad Nala asked because the other thing I kept thinking this whole conversation that what sets this apart from other BDSM is the aesthetics. There's like a beauty element, there's an artistic element. Like you're creating art together, as I understand. Right? So I'd love to hear how that plays out.
speaker-1: The thing that I love about Rope is because it's so versatile, it can be adapted to any body, literally like person and physical body, which means that you can really like enhance the parts of someone that they want to feel really euphoric and desired about. You can be incredibly precise and... meticulous in something being incredibly symmetrical and almost mathematical in its precision and frictions and wraps. You can be really chaotic and abstract. I think also when people see rope, they see suspension, people tied up suspended or people tied on the floor. But often what people don't get to see as much, which I love and I play a lot with in sessions because it's actually more sustainable, is like tying to furniture in really beautiful aesthetic ways.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-0: Exactly. Yeah.
speaker-1: Furniture tying at home is wonderful, tying to furniture.
speaker-0: What kind of furniture are we talking? Like chairs and chairs. ⁓
speaker-2: Limit yourself, Nila.
speaker-1: If you have a radiator that's really attached to the wall, who knows? But I think suspension is very aesthetically striking. It's up. It's amazing. It's also not accessible for everyone. It can be quite physically intense on the body. So I really love to create that same intensity of being pushed to something, pulled to something, feeling your body interacting with like a thing in space.
speaker-0: Right. Yes.
speaker-1: differently without as much risk as like all of the weight of the body being taken in the air. So I play a lot tying to furniture in my sessions.
speaker-2: What's your favorite piece of furniture that you use in Sunday?
speaker-0: Ha ha.
speaker-1: in, in the dungeon that I session at quite often, there's a really amazing bondage bed that's a little bit like a cushy surface with some posts either side. I guess it's kind of like a mini four poster bed. So if I could have my ideal piece of furniture to tie to, be a four poster bed so you can stretch people or tie them to a, tie them to a post or.
speaker-2: Yeah, yeah. ⁓
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-0: Nice.
speaker-2: It sort of reminds me of architecture as like form meets function. It's not just the aesthetics, it's the practicality of how is this going to suspend them. And so for a person who enjoys using both sides of their brain, it could be really appealing. Yeah.
speaker-1: It's very stimulating. think what Naila said before about the focus and the headspace that you can get into being tied and tying. It's also very intense for the person tying that level of like, when I feel really in my kind of top space, I like to call it. Like some people talk about subspace of the person who's bottoming, dropping into their headspace. For me, when I'm tying and I'm in my top space, I feel like, yeah, an intense sense of. creativity and inspiration and almost like the word that came to my mind was like ravenous because that sounds a little intense but like this kind of like ⁓ I feel so attracted to this situation in a way that is very engaging and time completely disappears.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's total flow state, isn't it? It's like you're you're just thinking, ooh, and this and that, and let's do this and let's try a bit of that. Love it. Hyper focus. Okay. Coin by Sophia Rose. ⁓ yeah. Love it.
speaker-2: I actually love the word ravenous. Yes.
speaker-1: Kinky Hyper Focus.
speaker-2: So you say when you work with clients, you discover things together. I think that's how you put it. What do clients discover?
speaker-1: One of the loveliest things that a client said to me recently, they sent me an email after a session that said, doing this together felt like discovering the color yellow for the first time. It was a really funny way of putting it, but they said, it's like somebody's trying to describe something to you and you don't know what it is. And then when you see it you feel it, it's like something you've never seen or experienced before. And it's really wonderful. It was really sweet. So that's very like sweet, cute thing. And I guess in other, maybe more like practical, I don't know, other senses, just people doing things that they feel incredible relief over, like being allowed to, even for instance, tying somebody who likes to dress up in a certain clothing and wear a wig and have his makeup done and then tie him up and just saying what an amazing relief it is. to be able to experience bondage in this specific way that is really personal and exciting for him and free from shame and judgment and also very contained. know, we're together, we get to do these really fun, different things and then afterwards you get to also go about your life without having to necessarily, like sometimes compartmentalizing is good for people. Sometimes you do need luck to be able to step into something. experience all of these maybe elements of yourself that are a little tricky or a little messy or a little not quite worked out and you get to do that in a space that is boundaries and separate from your everyday to day life and I really love being able to do that with people and say I will do this with you and fully however creatively you want to do it and also outside of that if you don't want to speak to me it's a boundary space that you don't have to which is quite liberating for people.
speaker-0: Yeah. I think there's something in that about how people can feel like really seen. They they can stop pretending that they are this very put together person all the time and let their kind of unput together self have some breathing space as well. Absolutely. So I think that's a really powerful way of actually, as you say, people unpacking and learning what that part of them looks like because maybe part of the shame of keeping it hidden is that you anticipate that it might not be accepted by people around you. But B you might not fully know how to be with it either or what your relationship to it is so underdeveloped that it gives you a space to like actually see it for yourself too.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah. And also just what you're saying is just being able to try things out without necessarily having to over explain to someone what it means. Like, I think a lot of people actually really do need space to just like, I think I want to try this thing and I need a separate space to do that where not, doesn't mean anything afterwards, but often I think the reason why people can be afraid to do these things within, shall we say like long-term relationships is when you have a shared history with someone. and you have a shared history and also potentially a shared future, there's often a worry of how will this change things between us? It could be really wonderful, but maybe it's not. And then what does that mean? And so actually it can feel really liberating and exciting and... it's expansive to have a space where you can go and explore that kind of intimacy and possibility with somebody that of course it's still meaningful and intentional, but there isn't the weight, there's a bit of an unburdening around the experience because it doesn't symbolize anything between me and the person that I'm doing it with outside of the space that we share together.
speaker-0: Yeah. I love that. I think there's probably more of us that feel a sense of that than our we don't get to voice those things, right? We don't get to say those things out loud. And like you say, it feels like there's so much at stake when you're in a relationship and you're worried about how the other person might receive it and how what consequence it might hold. I feel like this is taking us in the direction of a conversation around morality and desire and I'd love to open that up if we want to go. Yeah. Okay, so let me put my hypothesis out there or at least
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah.
speaker-0: perspective out there is that this idea that we we correlate our morality a lot more with desire than we need to and actually there are few spaces where we are given permission to say it doesn't matter if that is something you find hot even if in your everyday life that kind of goes against the values that you might hold, right? And maybe it's because of that you find it hot. Right? So I've talked previously in previous episodes about having hesitations around power play because of my yeah, my identity as a woman and as a woman who values equality, particularly in a dating scene where you're still you're trying to make sure you're still safe and you're doing all of those things and so your head is still in that space of like, okay, I'm I'm like trying to take care of myself as a single woman in this world in a big city. What does it mean to then now entangle that with this idea of like power play and potentially giving someone power over me? So I would love to hear your perspectives on this whole idea of like morality and desire.
speaker-1: I resonate so much with what you've just shared and I think... Like you said, the things that we've eroticised, it's almost... We are playing with these things, whether we like it or not, whether we choose to or not. Even if we say, I'm not going to do X, Y, Z because it conflicts with my morals, or I'm going to be on the other side of the coin because I don't want to be in this. You're still playing like whether we like it or not, whatever angle we're coming at, it's present, right? It's there. And so I think again, it's about who you choose to do these things with and the kind of conversations you have to build trust or a sense of containment around those experiences. For instance, if I meet, like say I'm dating or playing with a man and he off the bat is like, yeah, I really like choking and slapping. I want to choke you and slap you. That's a little bit like, okay, like where does that come from? That feels quite projected on me. That's also. not really subverting much in terms of power dynamics or what happens in society between men and women. If I have a partner who I have more of an established dynamic with or we're exploring things and those topics come up and maybe I've, I don't know, developed a different sense of trust or connection with that person, then maybe that becomes hot or that becomes erotic. But I think it's about like, are we just... recreating or regurgitating things that already exist, like mindlessly, because we are not really like questioning or being critical about where does this come from for me? Why do I want to do this with this person? Do I really want to do this with this person or do I just want to do this to someone, to anyone? I think that changes the piece around maybe not even morality, but just... respect and humanity for bodies and experiences. Maybe I'll stop there and see what, see what do you have to say, Cole? What do you think?
speaker-2: Yeah, I I really like what you just said. Because if it's a sort of social rule you're subverting together, when you're two people sort of conspiring to subvert expectations or to rebel against expectations, that can be very erotic as opposed to just letting someone do something to you, which as the way you described it sounded so icky.
speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, it kind of feels more like using and projecting onto someone rather than this is erotic and exciting to do together because I also care about your experience in this. I care about this. think essentially all of the kink that we do, you want to leave people better off. You don't want to leave someone after an experience feeling disturbed, really confused or conflicted about what happened. That doesn't mean you have to do soft, gentle things all the time. quite hardcore things can also be transformative and wonderful, but people should always be left feeling better about themselves afterwards. And that doesn't mean complete or whole or good, but not oozed or very conflicted after doing these kind of things.
speaker-0: Yeah, I mean you want it to be a mutual experience, right? If you're opening up a space like that with anybody, you're doing it because you I'm assuming you both think it's fun to do that, right? Rather than feeling like one person had to do something or take it from the team or whatever. It feels to me like there's a minimal level of emotional safety or physical safety that needs to exist between two people before you can start to subvert a role and explore what it means to meaningfully play with a dynamic like That. And there was something somebody said recently to me, and it was in relation to power and men in more submissive roles, this idea that you have to have power to give it away. And so actually, this kind of trope we have that submissive men are somehow not manly enough, or whatever the words are that get thrown around, often derogatory perspectives on men who are willing to be more surrendered or be in a more submissive space. But actually, if you don't If you don't have power, how can you give it away? So I I really loved that idea and just wanna unpack that a bit.
speaker-1: Yeah, you're making me think of some of the most, shall we say, powerful clients that I've had come to me. And they don't need to even necessarily tell me that they're powerful, but I can understand where they sit because they'll often say things. And it bothers me sometimes a little bit if somebody says, I don't want any negotiations. just, want you to really scare me. I don't have limits. You can do whatever you want to me. Like as soon as I come in, I want you to. take me down and just go for it. Basically do your worst. And I'm thinking, only someone that feels like incredibly safe and privileged and powerful could go into a situation with a stranger and say, do whatever you want to me, right? ⁓
speaker-2: Yeah. And it's suggests how much they want to get a relief from their the current day. You talked about this compartmentalizing. This is a space where I can actually step away out of where I am on the streets. And so no wonder it's like a full swing.
speaker-0: Yeah. But I could not imagine any woman ever saying that, actually.
speaker-1: No. Yeah. Can you? I know. And I have a lot of clients who are women as well. And often conversations will include more around, yeah, like boundaries or maybe triggers or past experiences. And that's maybe one of the reasons why they're coming into a space because actually they need some more clearer boundaries in order to be able to feel that surrender. When I have clients say to me, like, you can do whatever you want. I say, ⁓ so can I shave your eyebrows off? and then they're like, no not that, I'm like, okay, you have limits, like all of us do, please don't say, do whatever you want to me because that's just not true
speaker-2: I'm thinking of two women who I'm friends with have been in a relationship for about ten years now and these types of things came up in conversation recently and ⁓ one of them really bristled at the suggestion that that there might be like a top or bottom dynamic in the bedroom for them because for them equality is just a very talking about moralizing these things, for them equality is one of the most important values that they have in and outside the relationship. And you could really see her moralizing this idea of power dynamics in the bedroom. Because I think they would see it as a betrayal of this value. So I guess I wonder what they're missing out on, if they could leave their morals at the door of their bedroom and somehow let it be playful. I don't know. Is it seems like they are adding a judgment on this thing that doesn't need to be there.
speaker-1: Well, I think it's, I think it's really helpful to acknowledge that we don't, we use all this language and actually it means so many things to different people. And I think when we use words like top, bottom, dom, sub, or talk about power dynamics, understandably, when we think about positions of power, often we go to abuses of positions of power. Like actually very few of us have, should we say like healthy, maybe if you've had a really healthy childhood. I don't know, but like, know, most of us don't have, most of us don't have an experience of a healthy kind of authority. Yeah. A figuring authority who doesn't abuse or overpower or mislead or punish. Like all of the archetypes we have are generally bad. And so it's understandable that when people are invited to play, people are actually often feel freer in a. receiving role than a giving role. do a lot of workshops or classes around finding your authentic dominance or the vulnerability of topping, because all of the examples that were given to us can often feel very uncomfortable. It's like, I don't want to be sadistic towards someone, or I don't like the idea of having ultimate control over another person. It feels icky to me or doesn't sit right with me. And so I think it's helpful to imagine. What could be more playful or fun or arousing or exciting about being in giving or guiding role if the idea of topping or doming turns people off or makes people uncomfortable?
speaker-2: Yep.
speaker-0: So what are examples of that then? Because I I have a lot of people that show up in my DMs that are like, I'm really interested in this idea of exploring my more dominant side, but actually I'm not quite sure where to begin or how to even think about it. And it's as you say, it's because our our definitions of those things become so rigid. So what would you say are some of the very first few things that people could think about to kind of unpack some of that for themselves?
speaker-1: You can still receive in a topping role. Often people think of being in a dominant role as being like the doer or the complete, like. organizing everything or making everything happen, controlling everything, which is a lot of pressure. And also like, it's a lot to think about. It's a lot, right? So sometimes I even think like being in a topping role can be asking people to do things for you, but not in like, go do this, go do that. But like, I need help with this. Could you help me? Like I'm thinking totally non-sexually. I'm thinking more of like a lifestyle dom sub dynamic, but a lot of people think about topping and bottoming as. like ordering or commanding, but it can also be about inviting or ⁓ asking for things, needing things. You can be vulnerable as a top and say what you need, or even maybe you don't want to, you know, sadistically dominate your partner, but you love being worshipped. Like body worship can be an incredibly erotic way to feel in like a more of a dominant leading space by guiding somebody how you want to be pleasured or how you want to be touched. and being quite specific, but not in a way that is punitive or speaking down to someone, but like actually, know, sensual or erotic or feeling really desired in that space.
speaker-2: I'm always railing against ⁓ in the gay male community this reductiveness to top and bottom as these identities because there's so many things that can happen between two people. There might be giving and receiving pleasure, worshiping someone and receiving worship, ⁓ just letting someone else do all the work and you just getting to enjoy it, all these different factors, and you can switch them around. It's so reductive to say, no, I'm always gonna be all these roles. You're really limiting yourself too.
speaker-1: Yeah. And sometimes the term that people can find helpful is, ⁓ service topping. maybe you're not naturally motivated to spank your partner. Like you don't find it arousing to tie up and spank your partner, but you find it arousing that they find it arousing. So you do it for them, not for you. And that can really help to shift to the kind of, ⁓ I'm not doing this out of my own power motivations because I enjoy overpowering someone. do it because I know that they love it. And it's like a service. So even the idea of giving, receiving, I don't know if people have heard of, have you heard of the wheel of consent? No. Yeah. Okay. There's lots of stuff around like giving, receiving, serving, taking, allowing, accepting that helps people to think about the different directions of these roles and like who is the action for. If I give something or if I do an action, am I doing it for me or am I doing it for them? And that can help sometimes people to think about power and play.
speaker-0: Yeah, that's actually a really good reminder about how language can be a really important part of how we understand things, right? And we can link the wheel of consent in the show notes for our listeners as well. I think that's a really helpful clarification. And now that I think about it, a lot of the people I know who describe themselves as DOM energy probably are are service topping 'cause they they like to facilitate the experience for what their partner enjoys, not necessarily because it's something that they want for themselves. Mm-hmm. I'm still on worship. What does it mean to to get someone to worship? Wait, what does that look like?
speaker-2: Naila, I'm sure you've been worshipped before. Come on.
speaker-0: Yeah, I'm just thinking like there are all these different terms that get thrown around, like are you a goddess? Are you into worship? What do these things mean?
speaker-1: Go home.
speaker-2: Finally
speaker-1: I know this one.
speaker-2: I've been there. No, ⁓ look, I think I've been on both sides of that equation. I ⁓ I enjoy being a top when I am giving pleasure or giving service. I love making someone feel great. That's my favorite kind of topping. And when I'm worshiping someone and making them feel beautiful, like when I'm just like and like letting them know how incredibly sexy I find them and figuring out what makes them feel amazing, I think that's yeah. Does that against your
speaker-1: 10 points for coral. I would say when I like to receive worship, for me, it's actually about really allowing myself to ask somebody to go as slowly as I need them to. I really, when I think about worship, it's about like time and...
speaker-0: ⁓ I
speaker-1: really tapping into my sensuality, the kind of touch that feels really good to me and savouring it and not feeling pressured to rush on or move on to give back. When I think about being worshipped, it's more about just fully allowing myself to enjoy that without skipping to, okay, and now I need to reciprocate. Reciprocate, exactly. Yeah.
speaker-0: Okay. That is so powerful actually, and I know a lot of women who listen to this are going to really relate to that. Shows up in my work as well. Actually, one of the least understood piece that I notice among the women I work with is this idea of pace. Whether that is in the bedroom, whether that is in how a relationship evolves, how much of that you actually find comfortable versus you're just responding and reacting to the other. If you could wipe the slight glean and say how you want it to go, what pace would you choose? Yeah. And I think a lot of people people probably haven't asked themselves that question, so I would love to kind of throw that out there for people to reflect on.
speaker-1: Yeah, I read something somewhere, I can't remember where it's from, but it said, go as fast as the slowest part of you wants to go. And that's often so much slower than we think, or so much more time than we think.
speaker-2: Mm-hmm. But I also ⁓ really like how you brought up reciprocity because now I'm thinking again to my friends who are a lesbian couple and who really value equality, but what a gift it could be to give your partner in saying, like, hey, this time just lie back and enjoy. This time I'm gonna make it all about you. That's an amazing gift. Maybe you both really enjoy that. So once you've earned that level of trust, it's about building that mutual respect and love and intimacy where it's okay to sometimes not be reciprocal. It's really amazing. Again, it's a value that I bring into sex.
speaker-1: And I guess like kink really provides a bit of a framework for that because one person is tying, one person is being tied. One person is giving the sensory play, one person is receiving the sensory play. So it creates a very clear, yeah, of division of I'm doing, you're receiving now. And I think that's really helpful for a lot of.
speaker-2: Yeah. I wish I could return the favor, but I'm completely tied up right now. Sorry.
speaker-1: Exactly, exactly.
speaker-0: Yes. There's something I want to come back to, which we opened with at the beginning of the conversation, around how things can carry cultural meaning, right? So Cole and I were talking at the weekend about how there have been situations recently where we've all gone back and rewritten memories that maybe weren't as wonderful before. But this idea of being able to actively rewrite the experience that you have with something. And you touched on how the origins of Shibari or the different cultural connotations of a whip or rope or leather. And I'm wondering if what comes up around like people's cultural histories or maybe some of the intersectional nature of playing with rope? And do you see that in your practice as well?
speaker-1: I would say that generally studio spaces, rope spaces are more white. There are more white people in public spaces. Yes. And I think that changes when you go into queer only spaces. Still, it's like more white people, but in spaces where I guess there's more of a surfacing of conversations around gender, identity, sexuality, intersectionality, different systems around. consent and I guess even just generally in the way that spaces are held, people maybe feel a little safer to come into spaces and it's essentially you're being vulnerable with your body, especially in public spaces with other people around and it's understandable maybe if different tools or types of play are really symbolic in different ways with people, it might feel really uncomfortable to go into spaces and see other people playing super freely and like... doing it with ease and like it means nothing and then actually maybe it's a bit triggering or really hard for somebody to be in a space and like relax and find it as free and easy going. There are like separatist spaces like POC only, rope jams or gatherings, BIPOC only spaces, also like flinter, like queer and women only spaces where there's still things are present and There's no utopia or perfect space, but I guess I would say as much as intersectionality is important to consider, it's also not something that I like to assume about people. I don't assume that somebody carries trauma or... find something symbolically triggering because I might see or think that they do because of this identity. think that's also harmful and that's also not right. Really it's up to people to either disclose or have the autonomy over their own experience about what they would like to share and do. And it can go both ways. Like you can be really ignorant and really harmful by not considering any of this. And you can also like patronize and... make people feel uncomfortable by assuming or attributing anything to them because of some aspect of their identity. And that goes across gender, sexuality, race, if people have disabilities, et cetera. So as much as possible, think it's apply this to actually everyone as a way of like, I don't know, again, building relationships that are based on trust, respect, care, listening, and. not trying to be good or, I don't know, the saviour of anyone. That's all so messed up.
speaker-2: Yeah. No, that that totally makes sense. Well put. And just to maybe I'll be the voice of the skeptics here. Just because you're into BDSM or tying up or anything, that it doesn't mean you're trying to overcome some childhood trauma, right? It's we don't link these two things.
speaker-1: Absolutely. It should be personal. If that's true for someone, it should be a personal journey or a personal exploration. think any generalisation or policing around how people feel about their experience is limiting. And I would love in general, I think you have an episode that I want to listen to, which is like, where did we forget how to disagree or forget how to argue? I think that's super important when it comes to conversations around... sex, kink, pleasure, identity. I really like speaking to people who have totally different views than me around this.
speaker-2: Yeah, we don't do it enough.
speaker-0: Yeah, the interesting thing for for me around all of this is when you have a personal discovery about something that you didn't realise you might have, right? So I'm thinking about people who might realize they might feel excited to try something like rope, for example, and then realize that they can't relax in those spaces. So from what you're sharing and what we're discussing, it it sounds like the smartest thing in that situation to do is is just acknowledge and bring awareness to the fact that there's an extra layer here that matters to you. And it doesn't matter if it doesn't impact other People is just part of your personal journey and experience. And it actually helps you have greater understanding and awareness of the conditions that make this more pleasurable or less pleasurable for you. So whether other people are projecting that onto you or it becomes something you discover about yourself when you try something, there's no perfect way how we handle these apart from just not suppressing it and ignoring it and just recognizing what does this tell me as a piece of data about what. puts the brakes on my pleasure, as Emily Ghosi would say, right?
speaker-1: Yeah. And also what does this tell me about what might put the brakes on my pleasure, but also what does this tell me that could be really interesting about how I choose to do this? Or really what important information does this tell me about what I need to make this wonderful? I think there's, can be so many things like conversations around consent and needs that are about protecting ourselves and stopping things from happening to keep ourselves safe, understandably. And it's also like, if I have something that's a bit like sensitive, and raw for me, that can also be really interesting to think about, okay, what do I need to then like be with that really sensitive part rather than like, I need to take it away, I need to avoid it, I can't let this come up. It's like, it's there, it might come up. What can I do to work with that? And I, you know, there's things that I know about myself now in terms of my own history and experiences that I find really helped me for me. Like one is a blindfold. like blindfolds really help me. And I think, yeah, it's like you can never erase things. You can only figure out how to work with them somehow.
speaker-0: Yeah. Takes me into the next thing that was on my mind was that actually there's so much wellness efication of kink now and this idea that it's this space to really discover yourself and perhaps we need to create safe spaces all around us. As you said, there's no such thing sometimes as safe spaces. You can do the best you can. But what about when sometimes it just doesn't mean anything? It was just hot in that moment. Yeah. Does it have to
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. And I think that what you mentioned about the wellness, wellnessification is there's a difference between like something being therapeutic versus like real therapy. You can come out of something and feel like, my God, I feel so much better after that. That was wonderful. I loved it. And you don't have to go into, okay, what does this mean now for my psyche? And do I need to change the way I do something because of this experience I had with someone? Sometimes yes. Sometimes no, but I think you're right in like a culture of kind of wellness and things having meaning and being almost like quite intellectual about the way that we want to see ourselves. It can also be okay to just be like, I was feeling like a pervert that day. And so I did something, I did something kinky and it was hot. And now I smile when I think about it. And that's that as well as good to have that permission.
speaker-0: This is the difference between me and Cole, isn't it?
speaker-2: I think Nyla and I are talking to each other right now because we ⁓ if given the chance to intellectualize something, we will. But sometimes it's just fun to be a pervert. And that's that's gonna be my takeaway.
speaker-1: It makes sense though because there has been, again, so much stigmatizing around and more so for different groups of people, for queer people, for people of color, women of color, around having to justify the sex that you're having as like good sex, like good safe sex, you know? It's not dirty, it's not diseased, it's for the goodness. And so I think that still is pervasive in a lot of ways that people feel like they have to legitimize the kink that they're doing because of all the stigma that comes around. ⁓ yeah. Erotic identity.
speaker-0: Trying justify being interested in things that are more niche, right? Than you're supposed to be interested in and this trope that there must be something quite edgy or wrong with you if you're into these edgy things. The research does not support it. We've said it before and I'll say it again, the research does not support that there's something wrong with you if you're into kink. Sometimes you just like different things, guys. That's just how it goes.
speaker-2: And we talked about how culture can sort of creep into eroticism like canes in the UK and rope in Japan, LGBT people getting told over and over again that they shouldn't be having sex at all is surely one force to just actually we're gonna go be perverts, thanks very much. We're gonna rebel against that and we're gonna have the most fun. So
speaker-1: 100 % yeah and when you said about there's nothing wrong with people who like kink I was thinking as see it sometimes people say that person's so vanilla or I actually don't think there's any such thing as vanilla it's such a spectrum maybe short on one end you've got people like nailing their scrotums to boards with nails and stuff like what? okay yeah really intense
speaker-0: That's making it sweat, just thinking about it.
speaker-1: You know, on one side of the spectrum, you might have like really intense stuff, but on the other side, like for me, kink is anything that maybe interrupts any set script. Yes. As you want to say, set script around how sex should be. maybe it's like you said, it's just like one person pleasures another person. Actually, that's, that's actually quite kinky considering how like a heteronormative script of sex knows. or not involving any kind of genital stimulation at all when it comes to pleasure. Like maybe it's just touching or a type of sensation or a type of sensory deprivation. And I think it's just expanding the idea that it has to be something that you do in like a dingy, dark underground basement. It could be at home, it could be cute, it could be funny, all of
speaker-0: It's so glamorous. Kink is so glamorous now. I think we've really ⁓ it's had a makeover, I would say, from what people used to think kink was.
speaker-2: But also what what makes me kinky as a gay man, I've joked slash not joked, is that ⁓ I just enjoy a good cuddle after sex because that's so outside of the script of gay male sex. It's like, no, all right, sorry. Call me a freak. Let's cuddle for a little bit.
speaker-1: Good aftercare.
speaker-0: Imagine a no-cutdle situation like that, that is wild. But okay, so what have you seen through your twelve plus years of being in this world? What is your relationship to Kink now? And how is it different to how it was maybe when you started out in the earlier years?
speaker-2: Freaks.
speaker-1: I would say... Sometimes I'd say like, I've done my time. Like I've been there, I've had some pretty wild experiences and I've tried a lot of things, done a lot of things, had some amazing times, shaped me in many ways. And I'm still, what I would say is no matter how much I've tried and done, I by no means feel like I have any of it figured out. It's the kind of thing that the more you know... the more you feel like there's still so much to know and that's actually what's wonderful and I love that and I feel very grateful for that and I think that the number one thing that actually being a part of this world and exploring myself in it has taught me is about ⁓ empathy, like empathy and how to be more curious about my experience and other people without ever getting to some kind of clear. cut answer, but just being really curious. So I guess there's no solid revelation and outcome after all these years, except that I would not choose any other way of continuing to learn about myself and other people than be able to work with this stuff. I find it really stimulating and diverse. I'm grateful.
speaker-2: Yeah.
speaker-1: Endlessly surprising and equally intense in quite a visceral wow type of way as it is very tender, very mundane, very sweet. I love that juxtaposition. There's like extremeness and intensity and also just a lot of humanity and sweetness at the same time that I love.
speaker-0: ⁓ what a beautiful space to be in.
speaker-2: Every time we delve into one of these kink spaces, Nyla, I'm convinced just to go out and try it. Like where do I
speaker-0: We're working on Cole. We're working on Cole. He's gonna by the end of this he's gonna be like a a master kinkster.
speaker-1: I can put you in touch with some people call.
speaker-0: We'll talk. Okay. Let's make it happen. ⁓ thank you so much, Sophia. I'm I'm wondering if there's anything you feel we haven't touched on that we should touch on before we close.
speaker-1: Maybe we touched on it very briefly, but just to say there is a huge crossover of people who are neurodivergent in the kink scene as well, and that it makes total sense around playing really clearly with like senses and stimulus and also like clear rules and clear roles. Like taking all of the things people might find really confusing around social scripts and roles and behaviors and making that confusion mutual and transparent. Like we need to talk about it before we do the thing, because nobody actually knows what each other is thinking or doing or meaning. Let's set things up really clearly so we can have more fun with each other. So there's lots of people who are like all ADHD, ADHD, neurodivergent in the kink scene and it makes sense.
speaker-2: Makes so much sense. I think we were talking about it on an earlier episode where this came up. Some people need it more than others, but everyone also needs it. We all can get so much out of that really clear understanding of expectations and boundaries. And maybe if you're neurotypical, you can put up with it a little a little more, but can get so much more mileage out of a sexual experience if you have those things established up front. And so I guess kink is also a really great framework to just have that built in.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely.
speaker-0: Love it. Yeah, the release of not having to hold all those things in your head and just have them on the table. Ugh.
speaker-1: Love it. I saw somebody talking about also neurodivergent pro-doms and sex workers and how it makes so much sense that there's so many sex workers who are neurodivergent because it makes, I think she said, it makes just as much sense for me to be pretending to be like your Victorian mistress as it does for me to pretend to be interested in your holiday photos. So, you know, why not let me spend my energy Pretending that and it's true. There's a lot of sex workers and BDSM practitioners who are neurodivergent because it's like makes sense to monetize your masking basically
speaker-2: That's so real. Yeah. So you have how many siblings and do you get along with them?
speaker-0: Okay.
speaker-1: Anyway, was such a good conversation. I really appreciate you both. And I loved this conversation and I loved everything that you brought in. And thank you so much for having me. It's really good.
speaker-0: Yeah, thank you so much, Sophia. And I'll link your your website and your Instagram in the show notes so if people want to learn more and get in touch with you, they can find you easily.
speaker-2: If people wanted to explore one of these sessions, that would be i via Instagram or what's the best way for us to start?
speaker-1: I'm try to. On email, on my website, because it's very censored online. So yeah, if you drop me an email, have a look on the website and I'm happy to discuss organizing.
speaker-0: Perfect. Thank you. Thanks so much, Sophia. ⁓
speaker-1: so much.
speaker-0: ⁓ wasn't she great?
speaker-2: Yeah, wonderful. Really enjoyed talking with her. I think we touched on a lot of things we discussed with other kink practitioners, but what really stood out for me was the slowness of it, the sensuality and pace, and meeting each other in the sort of meditative, very ⁓ methodical, beautiful art form that you don't get when you're ⁓ whipping someone, for example.
speaker-0: Yeah, and actually I would agree. I think that's probably one of my biggest takeaways too is this idea of if you could redefine the pace of an intimate experience. I know at least for women, like slowing it down is so powerful because yeah, it just taps into how men and women experience intimacy and how that arousal system gets activated and w how it works and there's so much safety created in those silent moments. when someone is focused in flow state on tying. I think there's some some really beautiful things that she shared about that that I think are gonna stay with me for a little bit.
speaker-2: Yeah, we actually didn't really touch on masculine versus feminine sensuality in the conversation. Well, and because I I guess because I'm cautious to draw these binaries, but Chibari is a very feminine practice in terms of sensuality of the full experience, ⁓ drawing out pleasure in big and small ways, rather than this stereotypically masculine approach to sex, which is just a race to the finish line. and I think Both of these approaches can have rewards, but I think a lot of men could benefit a lot from trying the extreme of not even thinking about the the climax as it were, the end goal, but experiencing the dips and troughs and joys and surprises along the way and really becoming more intimate with your partner. I think way too many men don't even consider that.
speaker-0: Yeah. It's funny, isn't it? Because my definition of sex is much broader than I think most people's. Like I think that is sex, even though there's no penetration or whatever going on, right? That would be considered the definition of it. But the intimacy of something like that, like sitting with e you know, have you ever been in a room with another person and nobody's speaking and like you feel the need to fill the silences, right? It's so
speaker-2: Every day that I've ever lived, yes. My human experience.
speaker-0: Yes. I used to do it a lot and I I realized how much I spoke and I was just like, Shut up You do not need to keep filling these gaps. So in many ways now I find the most intimate experiences the moments where you can be with another human without any words being spoken and this feels you know, i it makes sense that it would, but bondage and rope and working in these ways feels like another nonverbal way for your bodies to communicate, right? Rather than your words to lead. I kinda love that about
speaker-2: Have you ever been gagged in any of your play? Not given the option at all to speak. I'm thinking that could be real healthy for me. I mean I talk so much I have a whole damn podcast. I think just really not even having that be an option. ⁓ something to be said about having your options taken away and just experiencing what ⁓ what happens when you're pulled out of your comfort zone.
speaker-0: No, I have not. Not even one. Sensory deprivation, I think there is so much to tap into there around like subconscious pleasure. I think it's really unexpected and that mystery and like moment of discovering something new when you deprive yourself of one of your senses and how much it heightens all of your other senses. I think that's such a fun way to play, actually. So you wanna try some rope?
speaker-2: Hm. Yep. ⁓ kinda yeah. I kinda wanna be on both sides of this. What are they called? Tops and bottoms in Shibari? ⁓ my. Are those the actual terms? That why did those not come up at all? The Rigger and the Bunny. It sounds like one of Aesop's fables. A Lewis Carroll poem about the rigger and the bunny.
speaker-0: Like Yeah, the regga and the bunny. We didn't get into Ha ha ha.
speaker-2: Well I ⁓ you know, I like feeling ravenous and I like feeling like I don't have to do anything, which is what appeals to me about both ⁓ sides of the equation.
speaker-0: Think you're in the perfect place then. Let's make it happen.
speaker-2: Yeah. So I will update our listeners when I have a chance to dabble.
speaker-0: I think we need one whole episode dedicated to Cole's kink feedback experiences. ⁓ Because I think you've said that on a number of occasions. I will update and report back. So we need an episode for you to do all your reporting back.
speaker-2: Well that's why we need to take hiatuses every now and then so that I have a chance to go get freaky. ⁓ and as as Sophia said, just be a pervert from time to time. And then I'll come back and report. So I've got my homework, people, and don't worry, I will report back. I I'm always one to do my homework. So stay tuned. Until next time, stay kind, stay curious, and stay just a little bit deviant.
speaker-0: We shall. All right everybody. Bye everyone.
speaker-1: Yeah ⁓