Female Dominants: Why Do Powerful Men Want to Surrender? [Season Finale]

speaker-0: When most people imagine dominance, they picture a powerful man and a submissive woman. But what about when that script is flipped? Why do some men who run companies, lead teams, and control entire rooms want to surrender in the bedroom? And why does the idea of a woman holding that power make so many people uncomfortable? Today, we're talking to someone who lives this dynamic. She calls herself Dr. Ruthless.
speaker-2: Yeah
speaker-0: Most of us were given a cookie cutter template for how to live, love, and succeed. But what if you don't fit that mold? What if you're ready to live a little differently, even if that makes you the odd one out? We're Nyla and Cole, two people questioning the systems, the stories, and the identities that shape us. From politics to pleasure, culture to connection, this is where taboo meets truth. If you've ever felt like a black sheep, cycle breaker, or someone who doesn't quite fit the cookie cutter mold, then you're a deviant just like us. So really excited to have a guest with us today and I'm gonna say a little bit about her before I bring her in. we call her Ruthless, she's a doctoral researcher, she explores the intersections of psychology, of power, of identity, modern romance and she brings with her a real lived experience that blends all of these things, desire, power and authenticity. She identifies as a lifestyle dom and is in a monogamous relationship with her submissive partner. We met back in December and I immediately knew that we'd have a lot of deviants to unpack together. So welcome Ruthless, soon to be Dr. Ruthless, right?
speaker-1: Yes, thank you. So happy to be here.
speaker-0: Great to have you with us. Thanks for joining us. We're so happy to be spending the next hour or so with you just unpacking some of these really interesting power dynamics that show up in life and relationships. before we dive in to the dynamics itself, tell us a little bit about how you ended up here. Maybe what is your experience of off script living, if you like.
speaker-1: Yeah, I love that term off script because I think you mentioned I come from a very deeply religious background where sex is, you know, reserved only for procreation or for your spouse. It's certainly not something that you talk about in detail. Sexual desire is not really something that's discussed at all. Desire is really reserved for men and the women are really just kind of supposed to. go along with what the men desire. That was about the extent of the sex education that I got. But there was always something inside me, because people like to ask, how did you get into this? How did you get into being a Dom? And the real answer is I've just always kind of had this vibe like I should be worshipped. mean, literally since preschool, I made people call me queen and had them like. line up and like offer me gifts and things like that. always just, and I would say I didn't have any like real life role models of the kind of woman I wanted to be. I will say I grew up primarily with my grandmother who was a 1940s housewife, know, World War II. So she, she had a sort of like elegance, like TV housewife elegance, right? And so did her friend. was born in the twenties. So I kind of grew up with that classic elegance. I watched the TV shows that she watched. watched. the Munsters and the Adams family and I became goth and she was like, wait, that's not what I wanted for you. But yeah, these women were Tisha Adams, right? Elvira or the kids cat woman. These women, they moved with authority. They owned the space that they were in. They were able to bring men to their knees with just a look. And I was like, whatever that is, that's what I want. Right? When they show the cartoons that have the the heart eyes and they're floating because they see a woman walking smoothly with grace, right? And it's just these exaggerated, like that, was like, that's who I want to be. When there's an evil queen and she's got a plan, she's got like a whole idea of what she's going to do and how things are gonna play out and she's going to be all powerful, that's who I wanted to be, yeah.
speaker-0: Follow up question, are you a gay icon yet? Because you're talking like you are one. And I'm ready to sign up.
speaker-1: I'm ready to be one. That'd be fantastic. A dream come true.
speaker-0: Great. Okay. We'll talk. I just love that your inspirations for this deviant lifestyle are all from what? The great generation from the forties? We're talking like women from decades ago. And so this is, this is nothing new. Right. So when people hear the phrase female dominant, what does it actually mean? How would you describe what that means to you?
speaker-1: Absolutely. Yeah, I think people immediately think latex and San Andreas crosses and riding crops and sharp, sharp heels. But to me, especially in the lifestyle setting, it's, it's ease. It's not, not raising your voice, right? It's I'm going to look at you and you're going to know exactly what I want. It's actually the greatest compliment I received from ⁓ my partner. He said, you can just put me in a submissive space with just a look. At any time, any place, you can just look at me and I'm yours. You can make me do whatever you want. And so it's, many things, right? It's a hypnosis. It's putting that person in a, almost a trance like state. It's nonverbal communication, positioning yourself in a position of power. So for example, he likes to be on his knees quite a bit. He likes to, if he hands me something, he does it with gentleness and reverence. If I say, you know, get me a glass of water, he's never just gonna shove it in my face and not make eye contact. He's going to say, here you go, my queen, right? It's these small, intentional gestures. You know, I think a lot of people can't wrap their minds around it not being violent or forceful, but people can understand chivalry, right? They can understand men holding the door open. They can understand pulling chairs out and... You'll hear people say, you can't do that these days because feminists don't like it when you hold the door. But actually, it's not even about, you know, I'm helpless and I'm fragile and I don't know how to open a door. It's about respect and it's protocol. It's a protocol. I told him it was one of our first date. I don't touch door handles. And that's all I had to say. Calm, collected, cool, not open the door slut. Like, you know, it's just that person remembering and anticipating my needs. and doing things before I ask and not making me repeat myself. That's what it looks like in my life from day to day.
speaker-0: Yeah, there's something quite stereotypical about the way people imagine what power dynamics mean. You know, it means like the extreme of one person exerting external power over somebody else. And what you describe is much more nuanced, much more intentional, much more connectedness in there. It's like when your partner really considers you, they're thinking about what's important to you in prioritizing those things, but not in a way where they're being forcefully led to do those. Yeah. there's almost a desire to want to please and to create the conditions that help you feel like the queen that you are,
speaker-1: That's right. It's I don't want to make anyone do anything they don't want to do. I want you to be here because you want to be here. You know, I want you to serve me because you want to serve me. And I want you to feel like that is elevating your life experience and that is giving you purpose. And that's our approach. And it works beautifully for us.
speaker-0: And we should say you, of course, have discussed with your partner before coming onto the show. So anything you're sharing is with his consent also. Can I just hear a little bit how the two of you met and how intentional was this dynamic? Was it there before you even met up? You stated these were your expectations.
speaker-1: Absolutely. Thanks for saying that. Yeah, it's so interesting. It's just like dating. mean, you just keep dating until you find the right match. He has some horror stories with some doms. I have some horror stories with some subs. Where I met him was the Field app, which is fantastic. I have made lifelong friends from Field. You know, it's like, okay, the date ended up not working out, but I really like you and like, let's hang out. But yeah, we just started talking about how we view... and submission and expectations. He's obviously a very intelligent person. I'm deeply attracted to intellect and I respect intellect. Right. So that's another thing. This needs to be someone that I respect. This is not about disrespecting him or emasculating him. It's someone who's masculinity and strength and, you know, leadership and self-governance in other areas of his life, I respect. And when I heard him talk about himself and his determination, what exactly he wants out of life. It's the authenticity that he brought with it. Even just the way that he approached me, you know, there are some people who immediately are like, ⁓ I want you to exploit me and will send me a bunch of like pictures and videos of them in compromising positions. And I'm like, okay, hi. How are you? Yeah. But just that in and of itself will immediately get you, you know, ignored or tell me that you're just a fetishist. You're not really looking for anything that you want to build.
speaker-0: Hello to you too!
speaker-1: And so the language that he started speaking with was, we're going to build something together. We're going to see what we become. It was about evolution. It was about growth together. And it's a journey with him still. And it's a beautiful thing. Yeah.
speaker-0: It wasn't about exploiting each other or using each other, it was about building a relationship based on these principles and these dynamics. Right. You call yourself a lifestyle dom as opposed to a pro dom. Can you explain what those terms mean?
speaker-1: Yeah, so in short, think a pro-dom is probably easier to define where this is a person whose domination usually occurs in sessions and it's usually transactional. I think that's the key component of a pro-dom is that it's transactional. It's usually tied to financial transactions. Whereas you can still have multiple partners as a lifestyle dom, but monogamy is more common. in lifestyle domination, would say, whereas it kind of defeats the whole purpose to be monogamous as a pro-dom. It's not really financially sound.
speaker-0: because it is more of that transactional encounter with someone as opposed to the relationship with someone.
speaker-1: Correct. And what I found particularly, the guys who are accustomed to only dealing with pro-doms really tend to not be equipped for a relationship. They know how to behave and they know how to act within protocol within the context of a scene for an hour or two. But when it comes to actually having the real conversations, talking about building and growing, talking about accountability, communicating about real life situations, then they tend to get guarded, overwhelmed, or just unable to have the conversation. Whereas when you're in that scene or that space, that DOM is creating the safe space for you to express yourself, right? A DOM is ultimately a facilitator. They're facilitating the story, they're facilitating the fantasy. So as long as it's a facilitated, controlled environment, they're fine. But when real life happens, then it's just like, okay, wait, I didn't sign up for this. You're asking too much of me. I can't.
speaker-0: Make sense. So what I'm hearing is a proton facilitates the experience between. dominant and a submissive. So that's what happens when you have a professional who is trained in creating that environment for you to experience. I can imagine that when people see your field profile, that that probably invites a lot of attention that isn't about building long term and is about like maybe some of the myths or the stereotypes people have about what it means when a woman is a dominatrix and ⁓ that's hot and sexy. That caricature that they have in their head.
speaker-1: Literally the term we use is kink dispenser. This is pro-DOMs alike as well as lifestyle DOMs. It's like I'm tired of being treated like a kink dispenser. You know, you have a laundry list of skills that you have and I will say any DOM, pro or lifestyle otherwise, will learn these skills. These are things like, you know, learning Shabari, learning bondage, learning impact play safely, learning negotiation, learning communication around consent. I have been studying erotic hypnosis, for example. These are all skills that you build and you can offer these things as a service to someone who wants to experience them and put a monetary value on each of these things, right? But to just want that right off the bat from someone like me who wants a real relationship and then say, ⁓ yeah, but I'm not, I don't want to pay you. Then it's like, okay, well you need to either pay me or give me a relationship. but you're not just gonna take what you can from me. No, absolutely not.
speaker-0: And it also just sounds like you wouldn't get much from that experience. You're saying you wouldn't enjoy just a five minute experience with a stranger playing out a sub-dom dynamic. Is that what I'm hearing?
speaker-1: Right, and frankly I don't think a lot of women would enjoy that. So that's why there's gotta be that transactional aspect to it, right? I mean, I don't wanna speak for everybody, but that can't be fulfilling. I mean, that's why there are a lot of Doms who, participate in female domination with male partners, but they're actually lesbian in their real life, right? Because it's actually not sexual at all. It's strictly a skill. It's a job, it's something that they do in a transactional way, strictly.
speaker-0: It's making tons of sense. Just a quick pause before we continue. This episode is actually our season finale and Cole and I just want to say a huge thank you to all of you for listening to season one of Deviance. We've loved being able to dive into so many fascinating taboo topics. We've learned so much along the way and given some of the feedback we hear from all of you, which we love receiving by the way, it sounds like many of you are learning a lot too.
speaker-2: you
speaker-0: So we're excited to be bringing you a season two in the summer, which is gonna be even more banging. And if you've been listening to this season and finding yourself thinking, ⁓ this is so me, or questioning some of the patterns or the roles or the expectations that you're living inside, you're not alone. That's really the heart of the work that I do through Unbound Relating. I work with people who feel like the default scripts around relationships and success just don't fit them anymore. People who want to create something that feels more honest and more intentional for the life that they're now living. The best way to stay connected over this break and to be the first ones to hear about season two is through my newsletter at unbound relating.com. It's where I'll share deeper reflections and tools for all of you off-scripters and I've got something building in the pipeline too, which I'm excited to share later in the summer. And if you're a Based in the UK around London or Oxford, I also host in-person curated gatherings to bring together people living off script. It's a friends-first community, so come and join those two. All the links will be in the show notes, or you can just head to unboundrelating.com. All right, let's get back to Dr. Ruthless. Thanks everyone. So we've started getting into a few of them, but when people hear female dominant, what are some of the assumptions that they tend to make, myths that you need to keep correcting?
speaker-1: Yeah, I will say there are myths that are aimed towards the submissive man and myths towards the submissive woman. So I'll start with the man first, that the man is not masculine, that he's weak, that he is, you the word that kids today love to use is simp. ⁓ when in actuality, and I'll speak for my man, he's actually a very, very masculine person. He's an executive in tech. He's a leader when, you generally men talk to him, they're like, they straighten up, you know. ⁓ He's someone that other men look up to for examples of masculinity, right? And so when he's in the submissive space, he no longer has to perform. He can let go. He can just surrender, surrender to my leadership. and make his purpose no longer about being this high-powered executive but serving his queen, which is very masculine, right? The way that we frame it is like he's, ⁓ you know, I'm his queen, he's my loyal protector, you know?
speaker-0: which is old fashioned, we're talking medieval, this is chivalry.
speaker-1: Right. People can understand that as soon as they think about BDSM, they think about fetish, they think about latex and smacking guys around. And so, so that being said, as far as the misconceptions towards the female dominant is that she's angry, she hates men, you know, she's taking her anger out on men. She's taking her aggression out. I had a friend of mine say, Hey, like I just got divorced and I think it'd be really nice for me to be able to just like hit a guy. Like, so, tell me. Yeah. Tell me tell me like what yeah, tell me how do I get started? It's a little bit more nuanced than that, but
speaker-0: In her mind you're just going home everyday and like slugging your partner.
speaker-1: Right. I was like, no, that's not what we do. Again, like impact play, know, bondage. These are tools. These are tools that position the power. It's literally just play. None of these things are things that you can actually build a sustainable relationship on. These are things you can do in an hour and say, give me $500 and get the fuck out, you know? But these are not things you can actually build a long-term dynamic on.
speaker-0: ⁓ my god, so much in there. Firstly, can we go back to the submissive myth for a second? So this idea that the submissive partner is just this weak person that just wants to be kind of bossed around because they potentially can't make decisions for themselves or they don't know what they're doing. I feel like one of the first things I understood about power dynamics when I first started to think about this in a kink context was this idea of like relief from the hyper agency that we feel in our everyday life, right? And I really can see it. feel like I can see it in a lot of women because so many of us are like the CEO of our household, know, we're keeping shit together. We're raising the kids, we're keeping the jobs down, we're running the house. And then there is a moment where you just want to let go. You don't want to make a decision. You want to just surrender to like a moment where you can feel much more embodied and you can be in your kind of present experience without having to be in your head. And I know it's a really common experience for a lot of women I work with in my work with women in this lifestyle, kind of trying to explore what it means to let go, you know, because so much of it is about keeping it together all the time. So I really resonate with that.
speaker-1: Yeah. And what's interesting to one other element that's rarely talked about is aftercare, which you'll find in a more lifestyle situation where doms also need aftercare. And for me, what aftercare looks like for me is actually being held, you know, is being held and forehead kisses, things that we think of as ⁓ what female subs need. Sometimes I need that as aftercare. There was, I don't know if you saw the movie, Baby Girl.
speaker-0: I haven't yet. I've watched some other movies as homework for this, but not Baby Girl.
speaker-1: So it's about a young man who becomes a dominant to a female CEO. He's a 23 year old intern and she's the CEO played by Nicole Kidman. She's fabulous. But there's this, there's this scene where they're just kind of lying in bed and he asks her, am I a good person? You know, or am I a bad person? One of those questions, but it was just kind of like, I need validation right now. And we lifestyle doms have those moments where it's like, okay, just, and scene like.
speaker-0: Right.
speaker-1: Like, I also need a moment. I also need to be held.
speaker-0: Yeah. I mean, I think that touches on another nuance about this experience. Dominance is not about just always being the one that bosses everyone around. There's also vulnerability within the dominance as well. While we're talking movies, I watched Pillion recently. ⁓ I have a lot of thoughts, but can I just quickly get your, like, if someone is trying to understand this lifestyle, is that a place you would direct them to or what was your take on that movie?
speaker-1: That's right. Absolutely not. Yeah, absolutely not. To me, it was like if you just wanted to make a Leather Daddy porn movie, just just say that. Like there was no consent. There was no communication. There was no meaningful aftercare. I would say probably the best part was at the end of the film. Spoiler alert. This person kind of sets up, you know, essentially his field profile or I think his grinder where he he does have know, limits, he does have boundaries based on that experience. I will not cut my hair, I will take one day a week off. It would have been nice to see those boundaries play out in the next relationship. Instead, it was just like, do you cook? So it wasn't a very cathartic ending. And it essentially was what I feel to be a romanticized story about an abusive relationship.
speaker-0: It was about a emotionally damaged person abusing another one. Right. Under the guise of trying to be woke about these dynamics. So I almost felt, I felt bad for you and other people who do not relate to this at all. Yeah. I was gonna say, I found myself wondering like other filmmakers, are they close to kink or are they just observers of it from the outside? Because it feels like it. Walk straight into all of the tropes. Like if you were into kink and you were making a movie about this and you were thinking, perhaps this might reach a mainstream audience. What is the most important thing about kink that I would want people to understand? And that's the very thing that's not in the movie. This idea of consent and negotiation. To me, my immediate feelings throughout the whole film, and I felt really comfortable watching it, was it feels like a vulnerable person being groomed. A lot of people anyways think that kink is very abusive and they think of it as this like ugly underbelly that there's some coercive control and this walked right into that plot so it felt like a really unintelligent way. I'm sorry to whoever made it and people like it but for me it was very lacking in nuance and it also didn't feel like an intelligent depiction of kink. In fact it felt quite offensive.
speaker-1: Yeah, irresponsible. Irresponsible. I think what would have made it more compelling is to understand Ray. think that was Alexander Skarsgard's character. His backstory. Why are you like this? Right. Here's what he looks like shirtless. Maybe that'll make you forget that we're not adding anything to this character. ⁓
speaker-0: word for it. So these two men are in a Dom sub relationship and the rupture happens when the sub asks for a day off. He's like, can we just stop playing this game for a day and be like a romantic couple? And the Dom tries it for a day, but for whatever reason, it doesn't work. But can you relate to that at all? Do you and your partner stop playing the dynamic and do something else for a while, or is it a lot more integrated? Is there a game you play and a different version of the two?
speaker-1: Yeah, no, I think their relationship was very heavily based on protocol. You know, I come home, you cook dinner, you lay on the floor, you stand behind me while I, it was just a series of actions. There was no communication and I, I'm not sure that a real lifestyle situation like that even exists. Honestly.
speaker-0: Because he was just making this poor man be his slave.
speaker-1: Right. Again, a good Dom, just like a good sub is going to anticipate my needs, I'm going to anticipate his needs as well. I'm going to anticipate his moods. You know, I'm going to adjust my approach to asking him to do something for me or to giving him a command based on how he's feeling. There's no day off because it's not a job, you know, a day off. That's like, if it's a job, if it's tied to a transaction, which a lifestyle situation is not.
speaker-0: You are, you're always attuned to his needs and caring for him and he knows it. He feels your love. Right.
speaker-1: There's care, both ways, absolutely.
speaker-0: I think that's what's often missing in the ways that kink is depicted in mainstream media often. It goes heavy on the dynamic and the rank, if you like, and it really tones down the fact that there is care that exists alongside that and what that can look like even when there is a power dynamic. How can a power dynamic still be a caring experience? And I think that's what people haven't seen in a nuanced way.
speaker-1: Right, or they think the care is just one-sided.
speaker-0: Hmm, yeah. So this is one of the things that really I think unsettles people, understandably. Like, it can start to look one-sided and it can start to look abusive, but I think there are also generally a lot of strong cultural ideas about what masculinity needs to be and what femininity needs to look like in society. And I think that also contributes to a lot of the reasons why female dominance in particular feels so uncomfortable to people. mean, I think it's much less... controversial, perhaps if that's the right word, or unsettling, to hear about a male dominant partner. But to hear about a female dominant feels like it touches on... It feels like it's turning everything upside down. Right, it does. Totally breaking the script. What do you think it is about that that makes people so uncomfortable in your experience?
speaker-1: I think it just kind of goes back to this idea that female dominance is about hating men. I think that's what it boils down to. People's ideas that it's something that harms men in some way, something that upsets society in the natural order. And again, going back to chivalry, which is just, you know, something that's ancient and that's really what it looks like from day to day is just these tiny acts of service that don't really have a great societal impact on anyone. I think that's the biggest thing is that people think that you can't love a man who's submissive. You can't respect a man who is submissive. And I think people get triggered by that word submission to, you know, the Bible. We were taught ad nauseam, know, wives submit to your husbands. And when people hear submit, they think that's like, this person has total authority. You know, this person is better than me. This person is superior to me, and therefore I will... give up everything I am to be this person's doormat. And I think it's rooted in biblical and religious belief.
speaker-0: I was at a wedding once where the Bible quote of the wedding, you know, it was printed on all the programs was, and God created Eve to be Adam's special helper.
speaker-1: ⁓ gosh, ⁓ that's a misquote, but...
speaker-0: Yeah, but we get it from the Bible, this dynamic. But then as you say, it's actually played out through chivalry for decades. We're talking about just men treating women with respect and honoring them, which is actually the most normal thing in the world, once you put it like that.
speaker-1: Think about the longest reigning monarchs in history. Victoria, Elizabeth, these were queens. They had the power to make men knights who bowed to them, who bent the knee for them. I mean, these are not radical feminist beliefs, right? This is just understanding power. ⁓
speaker-0: Other things I wanted to understand is I think what I'm hearing in between some of these conversations we're having is that it's not about powerlessness for a submissive. It's about the sense of relief that comes with, you know, surrendering. I want to get to the idea of surrender versus submission in a second. before that, we were talking about kind of power in the context of masculinity and femininity. There was that recent clip that went viral by Jameela Jamil. She was talking on another podcast about her boyfriend and how he's one of the most masculine men she knows and she described that he's so secure in his masculinity that he can step into his feminine energy. And I don't know that a lot of people understand what that looks like or what that means exactly, but I think it's incredibly hot. Now I wonder what it means to you.
speaker-1: Yeah, so in women, think about care, right? We think about nurturing. We think about child rearing. But what does care look like for men? Right. And what is that in a masculine sense? That looks like to me, protecting, right? Providing. It means lending your strength, right? Lifting something heavy, right? That's what caring looks like from a man or in the most evolutionary sense, like being that protector.
speaker-0: You mentioned Eartha Kitt before, but can we mention the movie The Emperor's New Groove? ⁓ Because Eartha Kitt voices the villain. I forget his name, but do remember the villain's helper is this really dumb himbo? He's like this muscly sweetheart who's either protecting her or baking her cupcakes. Yes. And he's become sort of like an icon since then because he's just so sweet and brawny and hot.
speaker-1: good example of that. Bane from Batman. Yes, and I'm a Batman, like this is my NeuroSpiciness coming out. So the 1996 Batman and Robin, Bane was just a grunting like brute, right? But we learned later that he was kind of controlled by poison ivy. He worked for poison ivy.
speaker-0: Interesting.
speaker-1: And then later in The Dark Knight Rises with Tom Hardy's Bane, it turns out he was the protector of Ra's al Ghul's daughter. cannot remember her name, but immediately in her presence, we saw him soften, cower, let her speak, but around the other men, he was intimidating. He, you know, had this almost Darth Vader like presence, right? With the breath. And so I think that's another great example.
speaker-0: I mean, now I'm thinking James Bond villains, like when the villains a woman, but she's got a henchman who's exactly super buff and intimidating. Like you don't mess with him, but he is her servant. We would never call any of them simps, right? They could kick any of our butts.
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. that's what I liked about actually the 1966 Batman when there was Catwoman. She had male henchmen and they would fight Batman and Robin and she would just kind of sit back and count the money that she stole. Like that was that was what what it was, you know, and then there were images of her. She would be on like a literal throne and they would be sitting at her feet. And I was like, Yep, yep, yep. That's me. That's what I'm going to be like when I grow up.
speaker-0: Yep. Well, okay, now we've just listed all these female villains. It's almost like we're saying that if you're a Dom female, you have to be villainous. Am I leaning into some stereotypes here? ⁓ Can you be a hero and still be a female Dom?
speaker-1: Well, you Pretty profound metaphor because especially now if I go back into my previous environment in many ways I am a villain right because I am turning everything that I was taught on its head. I'm owning my sexuality I'm not ashamed of it I'm not ashamed of who I am and people make you the villain when they think that you should feel shame Or you don't feel the shame that they are sitting with and not healing from you know Yeah, so yeah, you you essentially become yeah a deviant you become a villain, you know, yeah
speaker-0: I think the other thing it touches upon in our last episode, we were talking about labels and how labels can become so rigid in definition. And actually these are evolving things that exist on a spectrum. And I think what happens is when there are examples of femininity that is powerful, that is dominating, that challenges the notions of our existing definitions of what femininity needs to look like. Right. that I think starts to stretch the definition a little bit and it's easier for someone to other that and say, no, you must be a villain therefore. But I think it reveals to us the limitations of our thinking and the fact that we're getting getting too rigid in our definitions. And actually there's so much more nuance and there's so much more heart in all of this than that is portrayed. Actually, there's like tenderness in here and there's very much comfort and there's forehead kisses and there's love, you know, and I don't know that that people put that together with their idea of female power. ⁓
speaker-1: It's trust, trust. A lot of it is predicated upon trust as well. And trust is something that should be earned.
speaker-0: Right. So how does a dom earn the trust of her sub?
speaker-1: It's showing up consistently. It's being true to your word. It's ⁓ showing that you are taking steps to self-improvement, right? But I think the main thing is consistency. Doing and being who you say you are, doing what you say you will do.
speaker-0: Hmm, yeah, this actually really triggers a thought for me, which is I found quite interesting that a lot of people are open to kink dynamics with people they've recently met or they've just met. And I've always wondered, how does that work for people because you don't have established trust yet and you're getting into these kind of subspace, dom-space zones and these altered states where you really are dependent almost on the other person in that moment. You're vulnerable.
speaker-1: Yeah. If you, let's say you, you want to play partner, you're not looking for anything serious. You just want some quick fun. What do you do? That's when communication comes in. That's when you say, these are my boundaries. These are my limits. I will not do this. I'm not into that. communication throughout the play as well. You know, I will definitely have a briefing right beforehand. Like you can stop at any time. This is going to be, you know, the word you can revoke consent anytime. Just let me know, say the word. It's done. And same with the sub, if you tell sub, no, I don't like that, immediately stop. Right? So I think that's the main thing is communication right before and communication all throughout and then certainly communication afterward.
speaker-0: And this is what we're learning, right, Cole? This is like the huge difference between vanilla dating, I guess, and people in the kink world or more kind of deviant scripts is that actually so much of it is about just putting on the table all of the things that don't get said in vanilla dynamics, where you're just like, let's just hope this ends up somewhere nice where we both like it. I mean, couples that are more vanilla, if we're going to use that word, should be doing that too, but they tend to not do because there's this idea that it's unsexy to communicate or it's unsexy to like... plan a sexual encounter. Yeah, I'll talk about it. But if you do that ahead of time, it totally broadens the playing field. You've got so much room to work with because you know each other's expectations.
speaker-1: Right? Right, right. Honestly, it also takes a level of self-awareness. That's another huge thing on either side. You have to know what you want or don't want. Like if someone says, I have no limits, immediate red flag, no, sorry, this is not going to work. Done. You should shut it down right there. Or someone, ⁓ I don't really know what I like, but I'm willing to try. I don't have the patience for that. Maybe someone else does. You know, like in that instance, I will send them to a pro. Go to a pro. pay someone, they will give you a list of the things that they do and do them to you and then you can decide if you like it or don't like it but you're not going to get any free samples, know.
speaker-0: And is that because you really want to know that it's a mutual experience? You want to know that you're both enjoying?
speaker-1: It's one thing if I'm dealing with someone who is equally experienced and we're on that level and I've had I have had situations like that where it's like this is what I like this is what I'm into I'm like that sounds hot let's go let's do this but the guys who are like I don't know and I don't I don't want my wife to know it's like okay go to a pro then pay someone yeah what you want is a service that is not what I provide yeah
speaker-0: it's natural that, as you say, this isn't a transactional experience for you, your needs for feeling fulfilled from that experience also need to be present and considered.
speaker-1: I had a guy who was like, I want you to break into my house in full latex and tie me up in the basement of my house. And I was like, okay, that sounds fun, but what do I get? Like, what are you going to do for me? He's like, well, you know, I don't pay for domination. was like, oh, you don't, you should start. Cause what you want is a scenario. What you want is a scene, what you want is a service. So find someone else.
speaker-0: role play, right? Versus a real connected relationship.
speaker-1: And that's the difference between a fetishist and like someone who is actually kinky, right?
speaker-0: That's so interesting. Okay. I think even making that distinction would surprise some people that fetishizing something is different from a kink. The difference is that you have a kinky relationship where this is like a lived developed dynamic as opposed to like a one-off. Is that what you're saying?
speaker-1: Right. And there's, definitely room for that, but it still needs to be mutually enjoyable. Right. Can I talk about the, Nepo baby that I dated? I won't say his name, but okay. won't say his name because I don't want that smoke from the estate, but, this person was a very experienced sub, ⁓ and fetishist and he fetishized like every aspect of my life. Like, ⁓ my God, you have a corporate job. That's so hot. And he love bombed me. He immediately started talking about getting married and, my God, my mom would love you. And you know, spent tons of money taking me to incredible places, like nothing less than Michelin star, right? And I, you know, really swept me off my feet. I mean, he had me fooled, but then he, wanted to get into race play, which usually I'm like, but his framing was I am a submissive white slave to a dominant black queen. And I rolled with it. But then I realized, like, okay, I felt uncomfortable when I actually started to try to talk to him about my experience as a black woman, you know, in America. He's British. Then he couldn't handle those conversations. He almost shut down. And then when I tried to call him out on the ways in which he's being problematic, for example, he was, oh, how dare you? What, me? No, never. And I said, okay, well, in that case, I'm not comfortable with the race play because if you're not able to have a real discussion with me about my lived experience as a black woman, you're not allowed to fetishize it, right?
speaker-0: Well, what you've said in a few different ways is that for you, it's not about role playing or playing pretend. You know that you are a queen. You know you have power as who you are, and you're not here to play these roles.
speaker-1: Yeah, and if you genuinely believe that and you treat me accordingly and you are able to have an honest dialogue then fine, cool. I'll throw that in the play, but you're not. And then also he had issues with like paying for things like Ubers even though, you know, he's a man of Let's put it that way. But he had no problem forking up cash when it was time. to play. So it's like, okay, give me $500 to get you out of your chastity cage. That's fine. But God forbid you pay for like tickets to the aquarium. Like that then it's like, Oh, how dare you ask me if it's like, okay, dude, so like just the idea of fetishizing that I have a job, right? It's like I have a job to support myself not because it's hot. You know that right?
speaker-0: For him that was part of the play was that you're the rich corporate exec and you're gonna like take care of me. I'm gonna be like your boy toy.
speaker-1: Exactly. He wanted to be like the house husband, the old money house husband who stays at home has a cocktail and a bath drawn for me when I get home. And I was going to go out and work and make the money and be a boss lady. And that just that doesn't work. I'm sure it works for someone but not me.
speaker-0: But you're like, I'm well aware how much of a trust fund you have and I cannot play this pretend game.
speaker-1: Like you can Google it. You can Google what his dad left behind.
speaker-0: Wow, it's so interesting. So what was difficult for him about getting into your lift experience of it? Why did he resist that so much? Was that like a threat to his fantasy?
speaker-1: I think ⁓ he has trouble confronting real-world issues, trouble confronting difficult topics. He doesn't want to work on his self-awareness. He's able to play the game, I'll say that. He's able to put on a facade that he has it all together. You know, he's 6'2", handsome, blonde, white guy from Cambridge with the most posh accent you've ever heard. ⁓ He doesn't like to be seen for the real mess that he is inside. and he doesn't want to confront that himself. So being able to see someone else, being able to have a genuine conversation about someone else and their identity forces him to do that to himself, and that's where he finds the discomfort.
speaker-0: Can you contrast that with your current partner? mean, just to help people understand what's and what's wrong. What are your partner's motivations for wanting to be in this dynamic? I'm assuming they're much healthier.
speaker-1: Yeah, because that one was like, ⁓ yeah, I'm going to the gym working out so I can be the best for you, which is like, yeah, okay. But for, for, I'll just call him NEPO baby. The you was interchangeable. It was not me. It was this dominant person that I'm currently serving. when my current partner says he's doing things for me, I know he's talking about me. ⁓ I know that there is consistency behind it. Or if I say, Hey, let's talk about this thing that you did. I didn't like it. He. wants to understand. This is someone who's in tuned with me, but he's also in tuned with himself. That's the major difference.
speaker-0: I want to go out on a limb here and say that that is not so different to like relational dynamics all around us, right? Like somebody who's done the work who has a sense of self-awareness. And so what I heard you say is the difference between, you know, the previous partner and this one is that the previous partner is doing this because there's some immediate gratification that comes from the response that he gets from you or whoever interchangeably fills that gap for him as someone he's serving right now. Just the app itself. There are people on there playing the field. They're not people on there genuinely interested in a relationship. Right. So there's a spectrum of people in the lifestyle, in the world in general, right, that you're going to come across. When you center the need for that power dynamic or the kink or...
speaker-1: Absolutely. I met that one on field too, by the way.
speaker-0: whatever else it might be. You sometimes put that ahead of your ability to really connect and care for somebody for who they really are. For me, I find that quite sad. In some ways, my heart goes out to those people because I can see that they're losing so much in their desire to distance themselves from something deeper. And isn't that the whole point? You know, whether that has a power dynamic or not.
speaker-1: Yeah, that's the thing. Part of me does feel bad for this person that we could have had something absolutely beautiful, but there was always like a hidden, it was always like, I'm being tested for a role. There was that part of it too, that there was lacking transparency, which I do have with my current partner. He wants me to know everything. He wants to know everything because he understands that transparency is critical to our growth.
speaker-0: And it just sounds like he sees you as a person. It wants to build a relationship between two humans rather than play out some game of pretend. It sounds like this guy couldn't look past it. I guess one of my big takeaways from this is that this dynamic is not as radical as a lot of people think it is. It makes sense. It's pretty natural. ⁓ Do you think it's actually probably a lot more widespread than we might think?
speaker-1: I do. You know, we have the phrase happy wife, happy life, Which it's that in and of itself. It centers the woman's desires and wants and needs. I that is a mantra for a female led relationship. And I think that is quite common, but people just don't associate it with kink. So.
speaker-0: Yeah. Have you, do you know of any women in your life, like friends of yours or people you've met in the community who you've sort of helped or inspired them to connect with their own Dom energy?
speaker-1: Yeah, quite a few because people ask me, you know, where did you find him? And really, you know, that's the wrong question. It's who I had to become to attract him. ⁓ It's the self-improvement journey that I was on to find someone who is aligned with the person, that queen, the little me always wanted to be. Right. So that's what I've kind of passed on to my friends who are saying that be that person who you would worship, right? Be that person that just wake up in the morning, look at yourself in mirror and be like, yes, I am a queen. I deserve to worship? What does it take to be her? What does her routine look like? What kind of things do you have to do to become her? That's the question that you should be asking, not, know, where do I find these men? And honestly, there's a almost like an industry going on of fin doms and these, will say, TikTok doms selling classes, selling like guides on, you know, here's the script, here's what to say, here's where you find them, here's the places to go. I'm not, you know, I don't want to knock anybody's hustle, but Ultimately, it starts with you. I mean, I could give people all the tips in the world about where to go, the kind of guys to find what to look for, but you need to do the internal work. You know, you need to become her first.
speaker-0: Yeah, and I imagine that there's something quite empowering about stepping into... your authority, right, that sense of inner power that comes from stepping into dominant energy and it's very aligned with feminist narratives of our time, trying to almost subvert the gender scripts that we've grown up with. One of the things I find quite difficult sometimes about this whole power dynamic is actually more to do with submission or this assumption that often gets thrown around that the woman will always be the submissive partner and perhaps that comes from the traditional gendered expectations Biblical. Men are strong. There's a part of me that for a long time really resisted the idea of power dynamics because my feminist tendencies felt really offended, know, almost like submission was being imposed on me in some ways. And I think there's been something quite helpful about tuning into like negotiated power and how that feels more like chosen submission or chosen dominance. rather than this idea that we're just going to fall into the stereotypical understanding of power dynamics.
speaker-1: It just goes back to people not realizing that there's nuance, it's cerebral, that there's thought. It's not just smacking someone around or giving commands like in Pillion.
speaker-0: Yeah, I think my experience of it before I understood it more deeply and I'm still learning is that it was about the impact or it was about the fact that you were tied or you were restrained. And I think what I'm starting to understand is that it's about the connection. There's something beyond the surface level of what you see in a scene like that. And it's a psychological state of feeling deeply connected to somebody and deeply tethered to somebody that you're with. And that's hard to explain to somebody. I think it's a felt experience. Could I just try asking it in a really blunt, controversial way? So you identified as a queen from a very early age and you just own your power. If a woman enjoys being sub and enjoys the sub role, mean, would you judge a woman who likes the sub dynamic because she's not holding her power? Like, what would you say to a woman who actually loves being the sub?
speaker-1: Absolutely not. would say most of my friends, my female friends who are kinky are subs. So what I say to them though is just make sure you have your agency. I will say a couple of them have been in very toxic relationships with male doms who do not consider their feelings, know, who are still treating it like a fetish when they want more. They want more of a relationship. They want a deeper connection. But those moments where they have that feeling that you talked about, Nyla, that surrender, those are the that kind of get them through, that make them overlook the other things. Whereas as a Dom, I'm not overlooking shit. I didn't like that. I'm calling it out immediately. We're going to discuss this and this is not going to happen again. Whereas a female sub is less inclined, especially one with a toxic male Dom, less inclined to speak up and address the things. They can a lot more easily get taken advantage of. They can get breadcrumbed. You know, the guy figures out what it is that makes her tick. He gives her that just enough to keep her coming back, but then why do her the respect, the consistency showing up the way she needs him to.
speaker-0: We saw it in Pillion. I mean, that's how the sub was getting that bread crumbing, even though it was a really unhealthy dynamic.
speaker-1: I can't, mean, you I don't have the data in front of me. I don't even know if it's something that's been measured, right? And maybe that would be like a fun future research project, but you know, the kind of issues that women have with male doms versus, or maybe just to make it less heteronormative, right? Issues people have with male doms versus female doms, right? Maybe exploring that, what are some differences in the issues that arise and the conflicts that arise? And what I've seen just from having discussions with my friends is that kind of dangling carrot, like, ⁓ like, I'm going to make you artificially feel comfort and compassion and love, and then not really show up that way.
speaker-0: I think it connects to the idea of like not having a deep enough understanding of power dynamics and how they connect to deepening intimacy rather than playing out a scene, you know, that is fetishized in mainstream media of like, kinky are you though? You know, and I think that is something most people will want to avoid. Is it a dynamic that feels healthy for you in a longer term situation? If you know upfront that you're going to get bread crumbed by somebody who could make you feel amazing in this subspace for like, you know, a few times a week, the rest of the time treat you like shit. Are you up for that? I think that's kind of a hard trade, right?
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. You know, what's also unfortunate is even the women who get breadcrumbed, there's worse, right? There are worse things than being breadcrumbed. You can just straight up get abused. And there are women who were like that as well. So they'll take the breadcrumbing because at least they know that they're not abused in the sense that I need to get out of the situation right now or call the police. The bar is very low. And that's also the more unfortunate part.
speaker-0: is low.
speaker-1: I would say being a female sub to a male dom, I don't envy that situation at all.
speaker-0: Yeah, the world's already set up to make that dangerous. Yeah. What are some ways that your partners, your subpartners have put up their boundaries to make sure that they're not letting you walk all over them? I mean, how do they make sure they're staying safe and happy?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think the main thing is just going back to those initial conversations about boundaries, hard limits and constant communication. Just be like, ⁓ no, I'm not going to do, ⁓ I don't like that. ⁓ I don't think I'm going to just saying no. But as a DOM, you have to give them just the space to say no, right? You have to cultivate an atmosphere of safety. Just going back to the fact that a DOM is a facilitator.
speaker-0: And that's huge. I'm curious about what you've learned about men through being a dom that most people might never realize, you know, you've been around a lot of men who consciously choose to surrender. What has that helped you see that maybe other people might
speaker-1: Yeah, I would say the number one thing is that you have to have power to surrender it in the first place. Submission is not attractive to men who feel powerless in one way or the other. They may express that in anger, jealousy, resentment. You know, soon someone just finds out that I'm dominant, I'm not submitting to you. You can't make me. It's like, ⁓ you know, like already you feel. You think I'm trying to do that, just my mere presence is making you uncomfortable and think that I want you to submit. It seems like you're already submitting just by being emotional. So yeah, I would say that that's probably the number one thing I learned. Men who were secure in the strength that they have and their ability to move through the world, they make the best subs in there. They don't feel like you're taking something from them. Right. Because they understand their position in society and in the world.
speaker-0: Yeah, it's that sense of security that you talked about earlier, And then is it they get that relief or they get a break? mean, they know they sit in their power, but to be with you is to actually get a sort of reprieve from having to be in control, right? Is that fair to say?
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. You're creating a space where they can just like, okay, all that matters is me and my queen and making sure she's happy. We see it with we see it with ants. We see it with bees. They're worker ants that will self sacrifice for the queen. It gives them purpose.
speaker-0: It's like that one mission, it almost simplifies things. Like my job right now is to serve my Queen.
speaker-1: That's right, imagine if ants had to go do a nine to five and you know it's almost like, ugh, okay, now I can just get home and just do what I was brought here to do, which is serve my queen.
speaker-0: We don't talk, mean, society doesn't talk a lot about pressures on men to be the breadwinner and like run the whole household. Then when economic times are tough, they feel so much pressure to put food on the table for everyone and pay all the mortgage. And it's like immense pressure. So then to just suddenly not be in control for a minute and then just be there to serve the person right in front of them would be a huge vacation from like the immense pressure of masculinity. I'm getting it. So for somebody who's...
speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely.
speaker-0: not explored kink and can relate to it in these kind nuanced ways that we've talked about. What are some of the kind of gentle ways that you might encourage somebody to explore whether these dynamics might be something for them that they want to...
speaker-1: I always say explore with a partner that you already trust. So when you've, if you currently have a partner, try something, try something small, right? Try a bondage, see if they like it and communicate the whole time. Hey, is this too tight? Are you comfortable with this level of movement? Try saying, hey, get me this. No, no, I don't like how you did that. Go back, do it again. Right, just tiny little things, but with someone who already knows you, someone you already know. Don't get on an app and start swiping and thinking you're going to find this immediate person who's going to give you everything you want because that's not how it works.
speaker-0: Right. The trust factor is critical. Wow. Well, thank you so much, Dr Ruthless. I feel like this has been a really interesting and nuanced conversation. And actually, maybe people were expecting more kinky conversation about like the kinds of things that female doms get into, right? But I think actually, the beauty of this conversation is that there's just tenderness and trust and commitment and comfort in all of these things. it's just about so much more than
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: what it appears to be on the surface. any final thoughts from you? Is there anything you think that we haven't discussed that is worth mentioning in this context?
speaker-1: Yeah, I would say the only thing I would probably add, and I kind of covered this already, but I don't have a good relationship with my mom because she is religious and someone who struggles with said shame and things like that. And so I was really excited and we're currently no contact, but when I first told her about my partner, I was so excited. was like, finally, you know, she knows what I've been through. was like, I finally have a nice man. He worships the ground I walk on, you know, quite literally. Her response was... What makes you think you're worthy of worship? Now that was like, ouch, okay. I feel like ⁓ a caring, loving parent would be like, ⁓ that's so wonderful. I'm so happy for you. That's great that he treats you like that makes you feel like that. But then I really thought about it like months later, she has this way of just saying that thing that just, you know, twisting the night and it being your mother just makes it 10 times worse. But I actually thought about that, like, okay, what does make me worthy of worship? And it's because of that. that growth that I talked about. if you, every five years I'm a different person, I'm a better person. I'm always improving one way or the other, whether it's my health, whether it's my education, whether it's making more money at my job. I always keep my nails manicured. You know, I always keep my toes done. You know, I have a certain standard that I hold myself to. That's what makes me worthy of worship. I respect myself. I respect myself so much that I don't want anyone like you in my life.
speaker-0: So.
speaker-1: And that's what makes me worthy.
speaker-0: We were talking about the role of men in society. There's tons of pressure and it's nice to just like let go for a while. And I was thinking if the inverse of that might be possible that as a woman in the world, you are repeatedly diminished and demeaned. Your own mother says, are you even worthy of worship? Do you think for some dumb women, it's like, I am put in this lesser role all the time and I want to just say, fuck you to that for a second and escape that. Yeah, it's so interesting. Thank you for sharing the perspective on how that shows up for you because I'd imagine that all of those experiences you have in your everyday life contribute to the sense of powerlessness or powerfulness that you feel in yourself. you know, our psyche isn't compartmentalized that our work psychology is different to our sexual psychology. You know, it's all one thing. Now, it doesn't mean to say that anybody that's felt a sense of powerlessness is claiming or... craving to be a dom necessarily. I could imagine that there are some correlations too. I hope you don't find these questions inappropriate, like trying to psychologize why this might be appealing. Not at all.
speaker-1: For sure. These are
speaker-0: Because what I'm getting is like, hey, there's some incentives to try the subspace. There's a reward at the end of pursuing a dom or a sub lifestyle or experience. I think that's what I've learned through these questions. Yeah, I love that. I also just wanted to share some thoughts about your relationship with your mom as well. And thank you for sharing that. As somebody who also has a difficult relationship with my mom, I think it's a really challenging thing to hold, I think, as you grow into your own womanhood and you go through different experiences. And I think a lot of it connects to the kind of patriarchal ideals of what you need to do to stay a small woman in this world. And actually, in my own experience, feel like it's... My mom always encouraged me to be an independent woman, so I wasn't dependent on a man like her. But the result of that was really threatening to her. So when I was being an independent woman, she found it very, threatening and almost wanted it to shut down immediately. then she kind of helped me be this person that she didn't like anymore. And that's a really tough part of outgrowing the kind of nurturing feminine wife role that you've been also trained to be, you know, from your mother. That's the kind of life that they believed you should grow up into. Sometimes I wonder if more deviant women And I don't know men, if they have the same experience maybe with their fathers or with their mothers too, but if more deviant women have these difficult, challenging relationships with older women in their own lives because of how some of them might be holding onto very rigid definitions of what it means to be a woman.
speaker-1: I have experienced that with the submissive men in my life. will say that. ⁓ Mommy issues. Wanting to be called a good boy probably in many cases stems from not getting the validation or the love from mommy.
speaker-0: Mm-hmm. Yeah, for sure. ⁓ thank you so much. This has been a wonderful, wonderful morning. I feel like we could continue for hours. time with a cocktail in hand, perhaps. Sounds good. I'm gonna go back and delve into this world you painted of the 1940s women who just wore furs and owned themselves and queens. We need to bring that back, right?
speaker-1: Absolutely,
speaker-0: Let's do it. Thank you so much Ruthless. This has been really fantastic. I've learned tons.
speaker-1: Thank thank you, this was awesome.
speaker-0: So yeah, she's my new icon. Color me obsessed. Yes. Wasn't that a gorgeous discussion? mean, I feel like people might expect something quite salacious when we talk about female doms and they want to know what she does and how she wakes up in the morning and how her partner is, you know, serving her every need. But actually, I found that really tender and just intimate. And it sounds like she's in a really beautiful, healthy relationship. You know, they've got this power dynamic, which is ⁓ not only a playful, but also a really caring part of how they relate to each other. Yeah. What I got was two people who trust each other, communicate with each other and a woman who knows her worth and a man who wants to make her feel loved and special as much as he can. Is that deviant or is that actually just what everyone wants when they're watching a rom-com? I mean, this is not, this is not radical stuff. the bar that low that now that is deviant? The bar is in hell. It really is. I mean, I think you and I set out with this podcast just to show that the things the world is obsessed with calling deviant are actually not only very normal, but also very healthy. And I think a lot of us should consider exploring ways to get more in touch with ourselves and our needs. So Nyla, what are some questions that listeners who tuned into this not thinking they could relate at all to a sub-dom dynamic? and I heard some of this maybe resonated at one small part or another, what are some questions they may ask themselves as a follow-up? Yeah, I think there's something in understanding your relationship to power. know, like where does power show up in my everyday life and what parts of that feel good for me, you know, in more of an intimate scenario. And perhaps we don't need to jump to the more extreme depictions of what needs to be considered kinky or not, like just stop somewhere. easy baby steps into kink. Let's just like understand what it feels like to play with power in small ways. And then I'd also encourage people to think about where you might hold on tightly to control in your life. You know, where are the parts of your life that you are running the show, you are responsible for everything, where you might really secretly crave just a little bit of relief of letting go. For me that sometimes looks like stupid things like everyday things like feeding myself like who's gonna make dinner or when somebody like picks the restaurant that you're gonna go to for dinner and you didn't have to like do the whole back and forth of what do you want? No, what do you want? Just decide, you know, just surrender control and let someone else manage things for a while. I mean, sign me up on that. Yeah, absolutely. I love that you touched on the word surrender, right? Because there's something so beautiful about surrender and I talk about this in my work with Pace, Power and Pleasure and this idea that in order to access pleasure in our life, in our bodies, sexual or otherwise, there's a sense of surrendering to yourself, to what's around you, to trust. It's not a weakness, it actually comes from a place of trust and feeling safe enough in your own power, secure enough in yourself to be able to let somebody else guide and hold for a while. So I think there's something really beautiful about understanding What are the conditions that allow me to surrender in this situation and just not have to lead? Totally. Sign me up. I know it's nice. I've been reading this book called The Surrender Experiment. Yeah, it's more extreme than what I can practice in my life for sure right now, but there's something about how we as like one human on this whole earth in this whole universe in our cosmos think that we are somehow in control of the life we're living. Yeah. And we all need to get over that idea fast. Yes. Right. So when we think that we're, gosh, I'm turning 40 this month. I'm not sure if I've like done what I should have done by 40. Like, am I behind? I don't know. Should I be in a relationship right now? Or should I have gotten that job by now? Should I have made my millions by now? Like whatever it is that people worry about, right? There's this feeling sometimes in life that you're behind and there is no behind really. I think coming to terms with that is the healthiest thing any of us could do for our psyches, which is easier said than done. But if you can. just find a few moments, whether it's with a partner or having a sexual encounter, when you really can just give up trying to be in control and trying to meet expectations and just being free for a few minutes. I think we all could use that. It sounds like one of the healthiest things you could actually do for yourself. Acceptance. think that's something we all need to practice in big and small ways. Well said. All right. Thank you. everyone. Until next time, stay curious, stay kind. Instead just a little bit deviant. Thanks everyone. Till next Bye. Bye.