Can Opening Up Fix Your Relationship? with Ally Iseman, ENM coach

speaker-0: Hey everyone, Deviance is back.
speaker-1: If you don't know us yet, we're the podcast reclaiming the word deviant and what it looks like to live off script.
speaker-0: In season one we dove into things like kink, ethical non-monogamy, AI girlfriends
speaker-1: And in season two we're diving deeper into some more taboos with a curious mind.
speaker-0: Yeah, we're gonna have a conversation with an ENN dating coach, we're gonna talk about Ropekink, even get into the crunchy issues around cultural appropriation, and we're gonna talk to one of the biggest and edgiest dating apps out there about the future of dating apps and modern dating.
speaker-1: And we're also planning a very special Deviant Season 2 launch party in London next month. So stay tuned for more details on that.
speaker-0: Yeah, so without further ado, let's start season two. We design everything in our lives. Our homes, our meal plans. We hire coaches, read books, make spreadsheets, and then when we get into the most important thing, our relationships, we just see where it goes if we follow the template we were handed. No conversations, no designs, no checking in about whether it actually fits us. Ellie Eisman is a relationship coach, erotic lifestyle consultant, and founder of Passport to Pleasure. She works with a lot of couples considering ethical non monogamy. And she is always willing to be honest about whether she thinks it's even a good idea, or when she thinks you're just running away from a harder conversation you haven't had yet. This episode is for everyone, whether you're in the most conventional relationship imaginable, or you're already living well off script.
speaker-1: Welcome to the show, Allie.
speaker-2: Thank you so much for having me.
speaker-0: Great to have you here, Allie. Thanks for being with us.
speaker-1: So before we dive in, we'd love to hear a little bit about your story of how you ended up here, how you ended up in this work and your experience of living off script.
speaker-2: Sure. I think like so many folks, it started as a personal journey. So for me back in twenty sixteen, well, honestly before then, because let's rewind further. So I was what I call a a serial monogamous. And what that means to me is I was in a relationship with one person, then only at this time for about the same amount of time, then I'd be single for about the same amount of time, then boom, right into the next one. And over and over, and it was a pattern. And I'm also a nerd. So when I notice a pattern, I wanna fuck with a variable. So I like, let's see what happens if I'm single for longer than I'm usually single. Let's see what's on the other side of that. And the answer was all of my shit. So when I pushed that boundary, that began my personal development journey, you know, exploring what I actually need, what am I interested in, who am I, how do I wanna show up in relationships and in my life. And so then I still got into a few more monogamous relationships with men. But at this point, at least I was able to start having conversations about, you know, what I was curious about, what turned me on, what I was interested in. And so we started having some more interesting conversations. And it generally landed in, okay, we can have a threesome with another woman. Great, let's go for it. Never actually happened. And then what ultimately became my last monogamous relationship, my partner at the time, he travels a lot for work. And so we chatted nowhere near enough and nowhere near in depth. Because I didn't have the tools that I have now about exploring what it might look like if he, you know, connected with somebody while he was on the road or something like that. I found that very exciting. I thought that's what jealousy was. I didn't know words like conversion and things like that. So for me, it was a very pleasant feeling, the idea of him, you know, connecting with somebody else and hearing about it. And so on one of these trips, he did end up meeting somebody, and we had said we'd send a photo, you know, consensual PG photo. And she was really cute. And I was like, Go for it, have a great time. They ended up just staying up all night talking, but it was it was this great, exciting feeling of like, yeah, this is definitely something I want to keep exploring. And so another time he was out of town, and a friend of mine I had known for six, seven years at this point was coming back into town to visit. And me and this friend already had a sexual history. We had slept together a number of times. We had already explored that route and were very, very clear that it was just friendship. We also just Happen to be two hot people who like having sex. So great. And so I posed this. It happens. And so I posed this to my partner. I said this is a great opportunity, you know, safe person, safe space, you know, explored territory, if you will. And he gave me what he called his green light. So my friend and I had a wonderful night together. We had a great time. It was really, really fun. And my partner and I had agreed that I would call him right after. So I leave my friend's place. I call my partner immediately. I'm just bursting. I felt
speaker-0: But it
speaker-2: So connected to my partner, even though he wasn't physically present, this experience opened up something in me that I call expansive love. He was very, very much a part of that experience. That experience was its own thing, but it also very much deepened my connection to my partner. I felt very seen, very held, very just again, very connected to him, even though he wasn't physically present. So I could not wait to talk to him and share and whatever he wanted to hear. And the other end of the phone was just dead silent. And then all he said was. I can't believe you did it. And it just I'll never forget that moment. It was like vacuum, right? Like all sound. Everyone's like, wait, what? And so honestly, like I, you know, I want to give him the benefit of the doubt. I don't know if he was testing me because there was sort of that vibe of like, well, you know, I had the opportunity and I didn't, and you did, and therefore I love you more. But I don't know that. Or maybe he genuinely thought he could handle it, you know, and then when. Confronted with the actual lived experience, he couldn't. And there were other issues in the relationship, anger management, not the greatest communication, et cetera, et cetera. So we didn't have the tools to kind of move through that in a very healthy way. So long story long, that relationship ultimately ended. And I want to be really clear that the relationship didn't end because we opened up the relationship. The relationship ended because opening up brought to the surface a bunch of stuff that we couldn't keep sweeping under the rug anymore. And it made us really look at some stuff, and we're not compatible for this next chapter for sure. So that's what began my journey. It was messy, it was painful. But what I understood was like, okay, this is real for me. It was super confirming on like an identity level. And we did actually seek consult from the friends who had actually introduced us, it was a monogamous couple that had introduced us. And I'll never forget this. And I also want to say this is not the norm. So when you go. To folks who have no experience in this, this is not generally what happens. I was very, very lucky. But our friends were like, look, you guys had an agreement. She operated within the agreement. You don't get to be mad at her for operating within the agreements that you have, but you do get to decide whether or not you now want to move forward together in this exploration or not. This seems to be very real for Allie. And so that framing was game-changing. I will forever be grateful to those friends for that framing. It has informed. so much of where I've gone now and I couldn't agree more. And a relationship is an agreement. It's just a series of agreements that we talk about and may shift over time. But it's an agreement between two people. So that began my journey. cut to my first play party, cut to becoming an organizer in that space, cut to getting certified as a relationship coach. I nerd out when I get interested in something. So you know there wasn't anywhere near as much access as there is now. So I was just deep diving every workshop, book, anything I could find. And then ended up becoming an organizer and leader within the erotic event space and found a lot of people coming to me for guidance and advice and both of these areas. So about two years ago I decided to launch what I've been doing now informally in the community for over a decade now as Passport to Pleasure, which is my educational platform. That's the shortest way I know how to tell that story. Wow.
speaker-0: So tell us about this educational platform. Who do you work with? What sort of clients do you have and what do you teach and what do you help people with?
speaker-2: So my whole platform is about relationship design. We have a tendency to obsess over labels in our culture, which is understandable with social media, right? It can be so easy, like, I'm this, you know, I'm this thing. Now that's great. I don't have to talk about it or, you know, actually like reflect. I'm not saying everyone does that, but it's very easy to do and it's understandable to be easy to do because we live in a soundbite culture. So even relationships now, there's the label, right? We're together, we're exclusive, we're polyamorous, we're whatever these labels are. And that's treated like the whole sentence. That's the destination that we're getting to. But a relationship is an ongoing conversation. That's why I call them a relation trip. It's always this ongoing thing. So Passport to Pleasure is a platform where you learn relationship skills. It's not this thing that you get, it's a skill set that you develop. And we design every area of our life, right? Think about it: your meal plan, your living room, your wardrobe. We design everything. except the one most foundational thing that we have, which is how we relate, how we do relationships. And so that's why I talk about relationship design rather than monogamy, non-monogamy policy sure, I'll use that language. But it's ultimately about designing, intentionally designing the relationship that works for you and your relationship style.
speaker-1: Cool. Yeah. That's just it, right? Like these are some of the most important skills of building a meaningful life and meaningful relationships in our life. And yet we don't go to any school for building relationships. We don't learn how to do these things well.
speaker-0: And I'm thinking about the term relationship design and I like how it breaks down the walls between monogamy and polyamory because we do get really rigid about these labels. Like, I couldn't possibly do one or the other. But there's so many different flavors and nuances and formulations of all of these things. so it's really not about picking a label, it's about figuring out an agreement between two people or more, of course.
speaker-2: Yeah. Well the labels are useful as a conversation starter, but I think they get used a lot of times as like the end of the sentence or the whole sentence. And I think Yeah, exactly. If we can see it as like, you're polynomial, what does that mean to you? What are your current structure? Like what are your current relationships? You know, I think that's a much more interesting way of going about it too.
speaker-1: Right. Yeah, it's interesting we we had a whole episode about labels in our last season because we're also fascinated by how people become so identified with one label that they almost it introduces rigidity within a label that's almost been pushing the boundaries, like the queer label, for example, you know, and I I was talking about how I almost feel sometimes uncomfortable to identify as a queer woman because I'm very feminine presenting and I wonder if that fits and you know, it just makes you think, Why wouldn't it fit? Of course it does. And how am I thinking about the definition of that or the boundaries of that label and what does it look like for that label to evolve over time so it doesn't become kind of a self-fulfilling prophecy of sorts, but actually helps you to continue contributing to what that looks like as a community that is expansive and supports your your growth rather than one that starts to limit the way that you show up.
speaker-2: Yeah, like again, seeing how it's sort of related to me to how we see differences. Like, if you're that and I'm this and those are different things, you need to be over there, I need to be over here. And I've always been so confused by that. Even as like a kid, I remember being like, you're different than me. Like tell me more. What's that like? How do you experience the world? Like that's so cool because I can't be you. So like I'd love to know what that's like. And I just it's so much more interesting.
speaker-1: Ha ha ha. I love this idea of relationship. The thing I love about that is I think one of the things that I've really embraced since exploring non monogamy is this idea that love is impermanent and that doesn't have to be a terrible thing, but actually we walk together through chapters in life and some chapters we're together for longer and some chapters are shorter and actually there can be a lot of abundance in in love and connection if you think that way. And so it it fits really neatly with that idea of, you know, tripping through life together and actually Having somebody on each trip with you.
speaker-2: Yeah. Well it's like and when we treat it again like a destination or a thing, right? It's something you get. So then when you no longer have it, you failed, you lost something. Like but like what if you had a an amazing twenty year relationship where you learned a lot about yourselves and each other and the world and you grew and you built things and you still respect each other, but the chapters you're each in are no longer compatible for cohabitating or whatever it is. Like how on earth is that a failure? To me, a failure would be trying to force something that is no longer serving you and your partner or partners. How is that better?
speaker-0: I think I think this whole conversation we're having now about ENM changes the way we all measure love and relationships and the value we get from people. Even if you're if you're afraid of using that ENM label and you're still the most monogamous person, it really makes us all question what is the worth of a a summer fling or a five year relationship that still ends. Or you know, it's not just again these binaries. So this was a successful relationship. This wasn't I got love from this and I got love from this in different ways. You know, it it lets you let you tap into all these different ways of connecting with people
speaker-2: Well, and it has you actually reflect on your definition of success. I think it's completely understandable that we still see it this way, right? Like generations before us. We've been married fifty years, seven years. Congratulations. The footnote is they've been miserable and they've been together. If they've been together and that means something. Maybe, but they do have to define what success is for you. It's something we do in entrepreneurship, in business. That's right. And your relationship or your relationships. are a financial decision. They are a longevity and health decision. They impact every area of your life. So you have to decide what success looks like. You define that.
speaker-1: Yeah. Totally. And it's it's also connected to this idea of are you moving towards something actively, intentionally, whether that be monogamy or non-monogamy, you know, the format of your relationship, are you intentionally choosing it? Or are you running away from something? And that piece really connects to the intentionality in the relationship, right, piece. Because you have to choose that. You don't just stick with this fantasy of forever that we've all been fed and many of us, you know, fell for. But what I notice in a lot of the women I work with With is that there's this this shedding of almost like an old identity. When you lose that fantasy of forever, you also lose the person you were that believed in that. And so there's a transition that starts happening in your own beliefs about how love and care starts to land and the form it can take in your life. And I don't think it's I mean, your story was amazing. It sounds like you guys dove pretty deep in quite quickly without having a lot of
speaker-2: I wouldn't recommend doing what I did. He was going to say not as I do.
speaker-1: I was gonna say a lot of people I know haven't moved that quickly, but they've had a lot of the same kinds of longings for you know, how could this look more abundant and different? Like if we really believe that love is expansive and elastic and can exist in all these forms, why can we have what what did we say in the last episode, Cole? Why can't we have loads of friends but not feel like we're cheating on our friends when we're, you know, engaging with
speaker-0: Why is monogamy only with the romance rather than friendship? Like who why do we gotta limit ourselves like this? Yeah because
speaker-2: Yeah, and why can't you romance your friends? Why can't
speaker-1: Well right that was our inaugural episode was all about that. Exactly. And why can't we romance our friends? And what is, as you say, what is the definition of love and what is the definition of success? And how do we actually start to just think about these things in a different way? I think you can take that really deep into like what you believe about love and how that turns into your behavior in relationships or what you're seeking in connection.
speaker-2: Yeah, I think that there's a few things there. I mean, one of the biggest things to bring out is an uncomfortable truth, I think, for a lot of people, is that by definition, you are your only life partner. There is one else you will have a relationship with for your pro probably for your entire life from birth to death. So if you can understand that, then it's like, okay, who does my life partner, you know, who do I want to invest in? You know, what what are we contributing to each other? How are we growing? Again, what how do you define success? What are you building? What is your life? And so this idea that we're looking for like the one, like it's a little overdone, but you're like you are you are the one. So you are the one that you do have a lifelong relationship. So if that's not one that you're working on for your whole life, it gets a lot harder to work on other relationships as well. But then also you brought up something really important. It's something I look for in my practice when couples or individuals even come to me looking for some version of expansive love. And how do we do this? Are you moving away from or are you moving towards something, right? Is it a vacation? Are you sharing an experience you wanna try and dip in and dip out of? Are you moving to a new place together? Are you escaping something? These are different motivations. So something I look for right out the gate. If you're trying to move away from something, like this isn't working, you know, between us, so I'm gonna go look for it elsewhere so that we, you know, can stay together. No, we're gonna see what's going on here first. And there may be relational incompatibilities. Perhaps one partner for whatever reason. This is a common one, is just no longer interested in sex. And I want to be clear, potentially sex or sex with this person, two different things. Right. So we're gonna look at is there a reconnection that we're both interested in? Is something going on there? But if one partner is, you know, for whatever reason, we don't have to be sexual our whole lives. If one person's no longer interested in sex and one still is, we have a very interesting social construct where the assumption is, well, then you're monogamous and then you guys are no longer having sex and you should be fine because you're a terrible person. You still want sex and your partner doesn't. It's not like you obviously you can't force your partner to have sex. That's first of all illegal and abusive. So why are they not able then? You know, we we say monogamy in our culture, one sexual and relational partner. Well, really now at a time. It used to be for your life. But now we say at a time. See how definitions change? So so we have this idea that okay, if there's you know, one
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: Person involved in this partnership who's no longer interested in sex for whatever reason, they get to make that decision. But the other partner still is. And that partner is considered a bad person if they still want sex. Obviously, they're not going to be pressuring their partner to have sex, forcing their partner to have sex. That's illegal and abusive. Then why are they not able to pursue that interest elsewhere? But we conflate love and sex. We say, if you want sex with other people, you don't love me. Those are two different things. Or you want sex with other people, you want me less, or you're less attracted to me. Not necessarily. These are not finite things. They're two separate things wanting to have sex with other people and being attracted to your partner. You can be just as attracted to your partner and potentially more so when you engage with other people. So all that to say, it's really important to look at are what are you moving towards or are you moving away from something? Because if you're trying to avoid looking at, you know, sexual incompatibility or whatever it is going on in the relationship. Think you can satisfy that elsewhere. I assure you, the lack in communication or whatever is contributing to creating an environment in your current relationship that prevents you from being able to talk about or explore the things you're interested in isn't going to change by going elsewhere. And it certainly isn't going to make that current relationship better by using, you know, opening up as an avoidance tactic.
speaker-1: Yeah, I I really resonate with how you frame that, Ali. And at the same time, I'm like thinking about people I know who are in monogamous relationships who would really struggle to embrace that idea. You know, in theory, in abstract, maybe it would make rational sense to them. But I think the emotional heat that it creates for somebody, Yeah, you know, it just draws attention to how much safety comes from the idea of like You are now only with me, irrespective of whether we are happy together. Right. Perceived safety, exactly. So this idea that any connection outside of the two of us is a threat to us rather than something that could augment our relationship or bring us closer together. And I think that's a real paradigm shift that people have to embrace to be willing to think more expansively about love and connection.
speaker-2: Well, and of course they think that way because we have socially accepted way of doing things. So it's very familiar. And familiarity is a feeling of safety. So I understand this agreement. We're only having sex with each other, we're only romantic with each other, to equal safety and security. And anything else that we haven't talked about, learned about, created agreements about, et cetera, like we have here, because we didn't have to do that for this. It's socially accepted. We didn't have to sit down and talk about what does monogamy mean to you? How do you
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: It just is, right? So of course the unknown feels a lot scarier if you're not talking about it, breaking it down. What are the boundaries that make you feel comfortable, or I should say more comfortable to explore potentially uncomfortable terrain? Like it feels unsafe. And that's the difference between making it something that's unsafe versus uncomfortable. Uncomfortable's okay. Like boundaries are what give us freedom. Thinking opening up means free for all, like really like whatever. I have no more say on anything.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: Well then you should be single if that's what you're looking for. If you're looking to open up your relationship, you're in relationship already, then that's a conversation between two people.
speaker-1: But yeah. And it it also makes total sense why a coach would be valuable in this situation, right? Because I think it can be so hard to hold your own emotions and also hold a big shift like this, you know, in your own worldview of how of how you're connecting, especially if you're feeling activated or your emotions are all flaring up. It's helpful to have somebody else just kind of walk you through this space before you try and do it for yourself.
speaker-2: I see a few different things happen in those initial stages, right? I think the biggest mistake I see is a lot of people think the first conversation is I wanna open up our relationship. That's that's not the first conversation. You have no idea if your partner's even ever heard the term or has any association or potentially bad experiences with it in the past. Have you heard about I heard this term polyamory? You I found this article in New York Times. Do you wanna like read it together and talk about it? I'm really curious. Your first conversation is trying to understand where your partner's at with it. It's a curiosity conversation. Yeah. And the other is what I often see if people have already tried to have the conversation, for example, and now they're coming to me because it imploded, right? The conversation sounds like, well, I this, and then the other person is I that, and it's very you versus me. And the relationship isn't even a part of the conversation. If you're in a couple, you're already in a threesome. There's you, there's your partner, and there's the relationship. So I as a coach and basically like the avatar for their relationship, making sure That thing that they've created, which is its own thing, is getting the attention and the focus that it needs.
speaker-1: Right. Yeah, it's going on a new trip. So like what does it need to pick? I love it.
speaker-2: Exactly.
speaker-0: I mean I'll I'll ask a blunt question. Is it possible ever for a relationship opening up to help improve the original relationship?
speaker-2: Hundred percent. Okay. Hundred thousand percent. Okay. And that's again the value of working with a coach, educating yourself. Like think about if if you're like, you know, I want to get back in shape, I wanna go swimming. You don't just go jump in the Pacific Ocean, you get some lessons, you like work with a with a coach, like you're at the local pool. Like there are stages to get ready for something, to try something. I've had couples come to me thinking they want to open up and find out they actually just wanted to be able to talk about it. That's it. And so it's just Another conversation in the relationship. And yes, of course, it feels more uncomfortable, but it depends on the why. Why are you interested in this? What do you think this is going to contribute to the relationship? And that's a lot of the work in the beginning is figuring that out. And again, that kind of defines success, right? Maybe you guys are looking for more novelty, or one partner is interested in some peaky stuff, but the other one is just it's a no-go, it's a hard no. And so we're looking to create a structure that supports each of them without completely casting aside a relationship that is very functional and fulfilling in every other way. Right. Why would you throw the whole thing out? Like this is something that can really aid. And honestly, people can experience compersion, which can be unexpected. Both compersion and jealousy can cross into eroticism with the right setting. And so there's so many potential benefits. And I like to talk about pretty much any form of consensual non-monogamy as relationship exposure therapy. And that's not just because it's non-monogamy. It's because we have a social script. Relationship is one thing and one thing only. So like I mentioned earlier, we never have to talk about it. This is just what it is. And if it's not working, you're the problem. So when we remove that script and we realize this is a skill set. there's a bunch of options. there's like sexual needs and romantic needs are like two different planes and we can create Then you're getting into again needing that skill set, right? So sorry, I kinda lost my train of thought.
speaker-0: It's almost like I if I'm getting you right about this exposure therapy, we've sort of joked, maybe not joked, that the more people you have sex with, the better you'll get at sex. And you say And the more different kinds of relationships you have, even at the same time, you're learning more of the language of relationships and understanding yourself and how to interact with other people. Is that
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-2: Right. Yes if, not necessarily yes and yes if. So I think that what is the Malcolm Gladwell, the ten thousand hours rule, right? Ten thousand hours to become the expert. If you are learning from each of those hours and each of those experiences versus replicating the same behavior. Sure. You know, that's the same way narcissists can use therapy speak to manipulate and control people who are avoidant, or whatever you we can talk about attachment and everything.
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-2: can use like poly speak or what have you to continue replicating avoidant behaviors rather than actually look
speaker-1: Yeah. Okay, well that segues right into my next question, actually, because that's something I've been sitting with and exploring a little while is that it feels like there's this real irony at the moment in the E and spheres that I'm in where there's kind of a philosophy of abundant connection, right? So this idea that we've been talking about of not needing to cage ourselves in this fantasy of one or forever or anything like that. Connecting to abundance and forming different kinds of connections to explore different parts of yourself, whether that's for kink or for for romance or something else. And yet it often seems that the people who seem to thrive a lot in these communities are the ones that are most afraid of deep connection. You know, like the avoidantly attached person can run amok almost in in these kinds of spaces. And I remember when I first explored ENM with somebody, I remember coming across people who were talking about how they'd been in this kind of relationship dynamic for two or three years. And then I realized but they'd never been in a relationship that had lasted more than maybe a month or two months. And so it felt like actually a really shallow way of forming connections. And there could be so many variables there. It's not the only one, but it made me reflect on why is it so hard to Find that combination of abundantly open connection, but also embracing connection in a way that doesn't feel scary. Do you have any reflections on this?
speaker-2: So much. think again, let's take it out macro relationships. Monogamous, polyamorous, whatever, relationships. We I would call it the the modern manuals as we know them for for men and women and all inclusive of all genders. But if we're looking at from a hetero lens, you know, the game, written by a sex addict, eat prey love, written by a love addict. So we've been given these like look into it.
speaker-1: Ha ha ha. Yeah.
speaker-2: They've both written memoirs after about their journeys realizing this and and working on it. So we have been given these tools that aren't really we haven't been given the skills and the tools needed to build the relationships that we want and deserve, even within monogamy. So we're looking for not the best thing like butterflies, aka anxiety and a dysregulated nervous system. How many people have you heard? I didn't just I just didn't have butterflies. So you were regulated around this person. That sounds great. don't get me started on the it. Okay, don't get me started on that. But like, so it's not just a non-monogamy thing. So we're not taught the things to really look for both within ourselves. How is my body and nervous system responding to this? Because if you're in relationship with other people, science proves that we impact each other's nervous systems, especially long-term relationships. So whether you're monogamous or non-monogamous,
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: The avoidance of that is the avoidance of relationship. It doesn't matter what structure you're in. So I agree with you. Yeah, but a bunch of short term, like, look, I don't want to be heard as saying if you wanna be the sluttiest version of you ever and that's your jam right now, freaking go for it. Like laugh at it, enjoy, as long as you are clear about what you're capable of and interested in with those involved. Saying, you know, I'm polyamorous. And then when somebody is like, okay, these are the boundaries that I have in order to engage in, boundaries aren't poly, that's not polyamory. So boundaries are a necessary ingredient in any form of healthy and sustainable relationship, from monogamy to polyamory to open relationships. So again, it's what are we being taught about what to look for in relationships?
speaker-1: Yeah. Right. I mean I guess what I'm challenging though is this idea that I don't know that people who are looking for a longer term dynamic in E and spaces, I don't know that there are many people actually in that space desperately looking for attachment. I think a lot. There is? Yes. I just have not found them yet.
speaker-0: Don't worry Nyilet.
speaker-2: You are not unique in that. You are not unique in that. And so my question to you would be, how do you show up in the space? You know, if you're on apps, what does your profile look and sound like? What are the characteristics you're looking for? What are the conversations you're having with people and when? You know, this is the work I do.
speaker-0: There is let's talk about gender stereotypes, going back to like the game. I mean, there is a stereotype that doesn't come from nowhere that men more likely than not want to hit it and quit it as opposed to women. What do you are there men out there who claim to be ENM, but they're just writing the coattails of this ENM more connection thing to actually just score more? And how do you how do you try to look out for that?
speaker-2: Yeah. And there's women using it to hedge their bets and see who's gonna be the best partner 'cause really they're looking for a monogamous long term, but they wanna make sure he's what is it? Six two, blue eyes, finance whatever.
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah.
speaker-2: But yeah, I mean, sure. And there's people using monogamy for the same like relationship is being used in ways that aren't supporting us. I think it's much easier to look at or see that, I guess I should say, in like the non-social norm, right? Like so my god, another open relationship ended. Surprise. I'm sorry, what's the divorce rate? How many monogamous So of course you're looking for that because it's the thing that's different. And it's much easier to ignore the fact that like the stats show that regardless of relationship structure, satisfaction and divorce rates are pretty much the same. So it's not the relationship structure. It's what are the skills we do or do not have that support us in designing the relationship for us.
speaker-0: Yeah. The old system was pretty broken already, so don't start knocking at these new approaches.
speaker-2: Well, you wanna get me started on marriage and what a marriage contract actually is and where it comes from versus love and romance, which has nothing to do with it.
speaker-0: Can I I really wanna rewind and ask how you feel about getting the ick. 'Cause it sounds like you're not on board with that concept.
speaker-1: Ha ha.
speaker-2: I think there's again it was where is it coming from? Like, are you looking for compatibilities? Do you know the qualities of a care? You know, he has to make a hundred thousand, he has to da da da da okay, great. It's all on why? Like, do you know how much your life costs? So is that why you have a number on it? Because most people aren't gonna be able to answer that question. I know exactly how much my life costs if I live to a hundred. I have a spreadsheet, it breaks it down. So I know the finances that I need, I know what I'm looking for at a partner, and we're gonna build together. something else. So anyway, getting on a tangent. No doubt. So the ick the ick I see used as kind of a cop out. Like any long term partnership, there's gonna be qualities in another person that eventually annoy you. Like it's just the nature, especially if you live together and like you're gonna grow and change and like you're never gonna fully know another person. There's stuff that's gonna come up later that you know wasn't there before that. So There's negotiables and non-negotiables. Is it annoying, but there's a million other things that really add value and expand your life that are really wonderful? What are you choosing to focus on? Because if you're looking for the turnoffs, I assure you, you will find them. You will only ever find what you're looking for.
speaker-0: Yeah. I bet a lot of time when you're working with couples who are thinking about ENM, you're also trying to help them look more inward at each other and not ruin what they've already got. And so opening up is not always the answer. We need to keep remembering that there's work to keep doing between two people, right?
speaker-2: Yet ongoing. And I think it's something that it's very common. And look, I'll speak to something that I'm even guilty of. And I've been, you know, on this relationship for over a decade now. It's very easy to go into things like triangulation if you're struggling in one relationship, kind of venting about it to another. Right. No, that's not fair to go to another intimate partner, you know, whatever. It's one thing if there's something that's impacting that dynamic that you have to kind of process with another person in the context of how it impacts you, but you know. That's why therapists and coaches exist and why you have friend groups, you know, that you're not dating or or whatever your version of it. Yeah. You also need to talk to your partner about whatever the thing is. And sometimes you need to vent. Sometimes you need to like just like vomit against the wall or like something and then like parse it out or into our journal or whatever it is. But yeah. So
speaker-1: Yeah. I love what you what you share about how we end up confirmation biasing ourselves. into believing what we think might be happening so you can kind of it's like the same science behind manifesting, right? Where like if you just think this is exactly yeah. It's funny, I was talking to my sister the other day about Gen Z's chances of like being able to buy a house in this day and age with costs going up and she was like, you know, I don't think my generation will be able to afford it because prices are just through the roof and, you know I and I said exactly the same thing to her of like, yeah, but have you really looked into it and actually is that really what's gonna happen or is that just you believing that to be true and therefore now living your life in accordance with that? So it's like we're almost like invited to disrupt our own thoughts sometimes when we're thinking like this to say, well is this really true or am I now creating this circumstance for myself, thinking my way into it?
speaker-2: Thinking, critical thinking and self-reflection and the ability to hold and sustain yourself through discomfort, I would say are three of the most rapidly diminishing and important life skills that we have. You don't, you know, learn how to process and work with jealousy as a benefit to your relationship.
speaker-1: Seriously.
speaker-2: without addressing it. Like being monogamous to avoid the fear of your partner leaving, that doesn't prevent your partner from leaving. Something I always like to say is very important differentiator, for example, if my partners are attracted to or interested in any way in somebody else, they don't have to leave me to pursue it as long as it's within the current agreements that we have. The only reason my partners ever need to leave me is if one or both of us are no longer interested in being together. Our relationship has nothing to do with what we do or don't do with other people. We have agreements around that that support our relationship. But why would I want to make someone leave me if we're still in love and we're still building something beautiful together? Just because they have another because it brings up fear and insecurity and whatever else, like good, that's data. Let's talk about it. What's coming up for you? It's okay to be uncomfortable. It is not a sign that something is wrong.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: Or that you're bad or something like that. It's just information and you can't grow without getting uncomfortable. Right. So they're not called growing pleasures.
speaker-1: No, there certainly are not.
speaker-0: What about when someone breaks an agreement? I mean how often is that how how often is that terminal?
speaker-2: Again, it's actually like a broken record. It depends on intention, right? Yeah. First of all, do you have a clear definition and understanding, but not just definition and understanding of said agreement? Do you have the same definition of the words that you use? You know, a big one I'll see in monogamous couples, because I do also work with monogamous couples, not just non-monogamous couples. Cheating. You know, well, obviously we all know what that is. I can guarantee you there's three people on this call right now who all have different definitions. Most likely your partner has a different definition than you. So these are the conversations we need to have. Right. What are those boundaries, right? Monogamy is not some guarantee. It's just a relationship structure. And you might not have the same definition of monogamy either. You didn't talk about it. So why is the thing? Why was the boundary broken? So I'm happy to share a personal experience that happened a little over a year ago, a little under a year ago. So reminder that I am a decade plus in
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: To this type of exploration. I've also been working on myself personally in the context of my relationship with myself, how I show up in relationships for a very long time. So I did not start here. So let's see, we mine a year-ish ago, fairly new, four to six months into a relationship. This gentleman I'm still with, we are actually moving in together. he is newer. To this. He has been exploring his previous long-term partnership. They've been together for 16 years, been open for four. But his experience was really like just looking for the sexual part of their relationship that had died, getting those connections elsewhere. But he's Sapio, so he really looks for real connection. And he has had long-term people that he's seen for a year, a couple of years. But we're new, we're four to six months in. And my friend's having an yacht party, which is Sexy hop people, awesome DJs for a week on a yacht in Croatia island hopping. Like hello, dream. All right.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: Yeah, let's go. This is like watching meet people. We haven't played with other people together before. So this is a new experience in a lot of ways. but we're really excited. So we get to the boat pretty quickly. I notice a young woman who I find very attractive and I'm just like, look, I would love to watch the two of you play with each other and just watch. Like that would be very, very hot to me. And she's there with her male partner. And so my partner's into it. We go chat with them. They're both cool. not really interested in playing with her partner, so it's very much him and I like watching them. And so I I'm fast forwarding a lot. This is not like we get on the boat, we set this up. this is like a a process of conversations and anything. So
speaker-0: Yeah.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: That we engage and me and the other guy are watching and my partner and her are I mean, ugh so yummy, so good. I'm enjoying it, I'm feeling conversion, it's erotic conversion, I'm turned on, they're so hot, I'm loving it. And it's going on for a while, and at one point there's a sort of like a pause and my partner who let me be clear has no no concerns with longevity of the the body parts that are required to do the things.
speaker-1: Okay.
speaker-0: Naila, do you know what do you know what she's saying? Are we all clear what she's saying?
speaker-2: We yes, the member is present. I'm not sure if it's because he's not used to, you know, his partner being there and watching or or he doesn't know, but the said member is not at attention as he normally is. And so they're not able to proceed. No worries, like no shame at all. You know, we're gonna give you a couple moments to kind of like close it out, you know, and we'll meet you down. So let me be clear what the agreement was between my partner and I. Was I would like to watch you have sex with this person. That's the agreement. I would like to watch you have sex with this person. So me and the other guy left the room, went down to the cabins, we're chatting. I'm like, wow, this is taking a while. no, he doesn't realize the dynamic has changed because I've left the room. They're having sex right now without us. my God, he's having sex with her right now. This is not what we agreed. I feel terrible. So what was compersion, erotic, has now suddenly become jealousy, doubt, fear, hurt, insecurity, all the things, right? All the things. And then more time. And then eventually they come down with droopy eyes and the cuddly and the confirming that I was correct. They had proceeded to then have a lot of sex.
speaker-0: Things worked that weren't working before.
speaker-2: Things the second we left and so our cabin of course is right next to the door to there. So I was like, okay, good night guys. This has been great. Partner and I go next door. I turn around to him and I go, so look, we're okay. I am not okay right now. We're okay. I am not okay right now. This is why. Like we need to talk about this, but I need to go to the bathroom right now and just like take care of myself. And he's immediately like, my God, like he's like fix it guy, right? Solutions guy. Like, no, no, I th he doesn't want to hurt me. He's like, this isn't what this is for. Like, I let me explain because I thought the she I was like, no, no, no. I I actually know exactly what you thought. If I thought it was anything else, you'd be getting off the boat right now. This would be my first party.
speaker-0: You understood it was a miscommunication or
speaker-2: That's why I'm like, we're okay. Like you're not a bad person. Like, but I feel like shit right now. And I need to manage that before we talk about this. Because I am really, really hurt and really, really upset. Okay. But I can't right now. And so again, he's just in fix it mode. If I can just explain it. If I can explain it, then and you can understand that, then I can unhurt you. And I'm like, no, no, no. It's already happened. You can't undo that.
speaker-1: Yeah. We're okay.
speaker-2: Right. Like I am hurt. I need to process these feelings. And then we can talk about it and help each other understand and learn from this experience. And I'll like fast forward through. But long story short, the repair process unlocked. You asked, can this be beneficial to relationships? The repair process of that unlocked such a deep level of security and trust and mutual respect and acknowledgement that I went into this level of sub. Because I'm very dominant in all areas of life, but I have always craved having a DS DOM-sub relationship with a long-term partner and I've never really found the right partnership to explore that with. I was in such a substate and so connected to this person and in full trust. It it just and it has only continued to unfold from there. So does that mean look for ways to break boundaries? So that you can build no, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying be willing to understand the difference between a mistake and that comes from having, if you're choosing to be in a relationship with someone, then you need to commit to giving them the benefit of the doubt and acknowledging that they're going to make mistakes. If you love someone, you cannot love and trust without being willing to give someone the power to hurt you. You you don't get it without that. And if the repair process had gone differently or there wasn't a repair process or there had been a you're a bad person and you're gonna have to prove to me by whatever the hell, no, that would not have built more trust. You you're not allowed to do anything unless I if I start putting up rules, you know, where I'm controlling somebody else's behavior versus talking about boundaries, which is how I take care of myself, then I'm not building trust. I'm actually eroding trust. Rules erode trust. So that's just an example. Like I said, don't look for ways. To break agreements, but understand that you may have different definitions or understandings of dynamics, because he understood that dynamic was he's still with the same person in in the room. So it's still the same dynamic because he didn't understand the dynamics about us, not them. The dynamics about our relationship.
speaker-1: Yeah. Right.
speaker-0: Yeah. I mean you got me really curious now. Could you briefly explain how the repair actually made you stronger in the long run? Because normally I was expecting to like, Well, we got through it, but what you said is that it made you even stronger and made your connection deeper. How the heck did that happen?
speaker-2: Because you don't avoid it. You don't go, Well, that was shitty. Let's not do that again. What happened? Let's talk about what happened. What enabled this to happen? What did you understand to be happening? And okay, let's create a shared definition of various things so we have a clearer understanding. Let's make sure we commit that we always talk through stuff when there's an accident. Look, if there's the same like if the same thing between him and I and somebody else happened again, we'd have a problem. Sure. That's now a pattern. We've already talked about this. That's no longer, oops, we had a different understanding. Like you now understand our agreements are about us, not you or somebody else. Yeah. So that's I guess part of that difference, right? Is I'm still taking the ch I'm I am agreeing with myself that the way we worked through this, I'm happy to talk about it further. The way we worked through this has given me enough to choose to trust him, which again means I'm giving him the power to hurt.
speaker-1: Right. Yeah. He has Right. And I think the the thing that seems really powerful in this situation is also the opportunity to reflect together on what this agreement is and also what it isn't. Because I think sometimes that second part doesn't get said and sometimes you don't know it because you've never especially if you're trying something for the first time with somebody, you might not know how much you might need to define what it isn't and what the other kind of variables might be.
speaker-2: Don't I'm not trusting him. And maybe the situation happened and I had never, you know, maybe I've done this with other partners and it was great, but we hadn't done it together and maybe all these feelings I wasn't expecting were gonna come up. And then if I'm like, this is your fault, like what if I hadn't been ready for what came up? You know, there's so many different versions. It's so understandable. You know, we actually had a recent experience where I responded to something that I'm used to loving and I'm used to feeling great, and it didn't for either of us. And we're like, what is What is this? What's happening right now? And so we changed part of our dynamic right now because it has to do with geography and our ability to be together for periods of time. And we realize we're unable to come back together in the way that we like to after experience it. I'll just say what it is. So right now, because we can't be together geographically, we have like reconnection rituals after one of us connects with somebody else or or we connect with another person or people. And we physically we can't be together right now because immigration's fun.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: And and we realized he you know, he attended a party that we were supposed to attend together and then I had to leave the country for immigration limitation. And we decided that he would still go. And I was like, you know, I like him being open to whatever life has to g I I love him. I want him to experience everything wonderful in life. Ideally I'm there, but I'm not always gonna be there.
speaker-0: That's the conversion, right? For people who don't know. That's basically the definition of conversion.
speaker-2: I get pleasure from knowing he's experiencing pleasure. And I don't mean that necessarily erotically. I'm happy to know that he's having a full life. I'm honored to be with this person. And vice versa. And so he ended up having some connections at this party. And we talked about it after. And I was like, I am feeling awful. This is what is happening. Like I am I am used to loving this. I have loved this sort of thing for a lot. Why? And we're like talking about it. And he's Yeah, honestly, like I wasn't he he kinda didn't
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: He had a a limited experience at the party versus what he's normally open to. And it was because he didn't feel very excited by it and open to it either. And we realized it's because we've basically had our empowerment and our autonomy taken away from the dynamic. And it'd be one thing if I was like on vacation with my girls, then it's great. I'm choosing to not be there. We'll reconnect when I get back. I can't be over there. He has limitations that prevent him from coming all the we're half a globe apart. So the removal of that Choice just removes all pleasure from it for us. So we've decided until we're, you know, living together properly later this year that for us we're closed. But I have a girlfriend. Does that mean I end my relationship with my girlfriend who I was seeing beforehand? No. My relationship with her is separate, but I'm not open to new connections right now. It doesn't feel good. I I don't want to do that because it's not adding to the relationships that I already have.
speaker-1: That makes sense. It's also it reflects on how dynamic these things are, right? You're not just one way throughout your whole relationship with somebody. Like life happens, curveballs, you know, all of these things change how we feel, change our relationship to our vulnerability. And that naturally reflects in the relationships around us.
speaker-2: Yeah, and I wanna be clear, I'm not saying you're not allowed to connect with other people because I feel bad. I'm saying, wow, this this dynamic that we've explored before doesn't feel good for me. I'm noticing I don't even wanna connect with other people, so I'm just not going to. How are you feeling? And he's like, you know what, I'm feeling the same way. I'm actually not really interested. I just I miss you. so until we can come together, I'm not really interested in seeing other people too. I was like, Great, that works for me.
speaker-0: The agreement the two of you made, it wasn't a rule.
speaker-2: Mm-hmm. Yeah, and it wasn't it's not tit for cat, right? It's not like, well, I'm not seeing other people, so you're not allowed to see other people too. If that's something you need, if you know one of us is open and the other one's like the only way I know how process that is if I can also see other people. Again, these are the conversations, right? This is relationship design. This is the ongoing conversation of your relationship.
speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah. I imagine one of the conversations you have a lot with people you work with is about the asymmetry of connecting in relationships that are abundant like this.
speaker-2: Well, and monogamy too. There's a lot of asymmetry in monogamy. I libido mismatch is a term that gets used a lot. I have feelings about that. But there's mismatch in relationship of any kind. Right. So I think it's more freely discussed, maybe, in non-monogamy, because they're already pushing the you know, borders of what's socially acceptable. So or let's have those uncomfortable conversations. But monogamous people need to have these conversations.
speaker-1: Yeah, and then also there's like dating app algorithms that get thrown in there and all sorts of other stuff that gets thrown in is, you know, part of the reason why people experience this. What do you generally advise people when they find themselves in this space where they want to make it more symmetrical, if you like, or at least closer to that? Because I think it can feel quite destabilizing when one partner is having an amazing time getting lots of attention and the other one is not.
speaker-2: Yeah, I think it's a few things. I think that's a very common thing that I see happen in heterocouples where the guy thinks he's gonna be like diving into a sea of pussy and this is gonna be great. And the reality is it's very hard for him to get dates and it's extremely easy for his wife or his girlfriend to get dates. And this kind of goes back to what we were talking about before, with at least what we're conditioned to believe. Yes, I have a lot of thoughts about this in that. Men are happy to have sex with whoever they don't care what your relationship dynamic is, they're just happy to get one off. And women are looking for more of a connection and potential long-term partnership. So when they hear that you're already partnered, well, you know, they want that spot. So it it's definitely a common thing that I see and a mistake I see a lot of people make is, you know, if it's the guy, for example, who wanted to open up the relationship because of his fantasy of what it was gonna be, and then he gets smacked in the face. with reality and it's very uncomfortable and he doesn't like what he's feeling and he wants to shut it all down, but now his wife's having a great time and is actually like into continuing and he's upset and feels that that's wrong. Right. We're gonna work on this. So it's very okay to be uncomfortable. It's understandable. I get it. I feel yeah. It's hard for me 'cause my my male partner has an easier time. Like we're both pretty sapio, but I feel that he has an easier time. He feels I have an easier time.
speaker-1: That's a pretty common scenario.
speaker-2: So our feelings about the other person's experience aren't necessarily accurate. So we need to look at what our feelings are. So if we're looking, you know, if we're stepping in and we're single and we're like, I know that I want to be with somebody who sees other people or doesn't see other people, that's a decision you need to make about who you're seeing. You don't get to tell other people whether or not they see other people. You get to decide if you're seeing people who do or do not see other people. Yep. Right. That's the difference between a rule and a boundary. So if you're in a relationship that's already existing. And you have decided to open the relationship, which is different than I want to explore polyamory and ENM. If you're in a relationship, it's not just about you, it's about the relationship. You have asked to change the relationship dynamic. So everyone involved in that dynamic gets to have a say. Now, does that mean one partner gets to like do whatever they want? It doesn't matter how the other partner feels? No. Because again, this is a relationship. Everyone needs to have a play or a part in this. And how this unfolds. That's where boundaries come in. Okay, you're gonna keep dating. I'm not getting as many dates. I feel very uncomfortable about that. But we've, you know, agreed that we're gonna meet with our coach once a week and talk about it. And we work with that coach to discover something that I've always wanted to do is pottery. So anytime you aren't on a date and I don't have a date, I'm gonna go to a pottery class. And I'm gonna invest in myself and be curious and have novelty in my life while you're experiencing novelty in your life. And then we'll come back together and share our experience. Mm or whatever that looks like. Mm-hmm. Does that answer your question?
speaker-1: Yeah, it does. And I think that's actually a a really wonderful way to work with I think the grief also or that sense of loss that that people feel when there's their partners having a great time. It's often not that they want to take that great time away from their partner. It's just I don't know what to do with myself right now, you know? So well a lot of times it's
speaker-2: I want to share that with you. The cadence of discomfort prevents that. Because we're so taught. Like we have an entire world built around comfort. Like, don't be uncomfortable. Nothing should be hard. But on earth, like you build new muscle tissue by literally tearing the old muscle tissue. Like this is the process of life. I always use Jim metaphors, but I'm a gym. But The need to develop, like honestly, if if you take nothing away from this conversation other than understanding that developing the ability or the capacity, I should say, to hold discomfort is the single most important thing, you know, next to what did I say, critical thinking and self-reflection that you can ever develop. They will impact and ripple out into every area of your life. If you can hold that discomfort, you know, like I work with couples who they want to open up. But it's too much. It's like a flood, right? Like if they hear about everything, like they don't want their partner to tell them all the things. That's okay. You get to start there. You can titrate the information. Yeah. But avoiding sharing anything because it's uncomfortable also prevents you from sharing in the experience with your partner. So I really support people in developing the skills to at least somehow share like. Look, I can't tell people obviously what kind of relationships to have. If you wanna have parallel poly, you get to have your own boundaries. You know, don't ask, don't tell. I never recommend it, but it's something that works for people at a certain point, fantastic. As long as it's a journey. Again, work for on a relationship.
speaker-1: Right. Right. So and it's also about sensitivity, right? It's about sensitivity as you're noticing how you're both feeling through that experience, right? It comes back to what you said earlier about intention. Like how do we continue to nurture this beautiful thing we have whilst also creating these opportunities for fulfillment outside of that or alongside that.
speaker-2: And you're not making your partner responsible for your emotional state, right? Like, okay, they went on this date and knowing that is giving you a lot of discomfort and it's bringing up insecurities and you're comparing yourself to this other person and I assure you your fantasy of who this person is is probably not reality. You know, they're always gonna be better looking than you, make more money, like all that stuff. Sure. Maybe.
speaker-1: yeah. When you imagine it you're like, my god, this perfect person
speaker-2: Yeah. But you're imagining you're getting data. I'm not feeling so great about my body. I'm not feeling so great about my income. I'm not like this is information again for you to look at. Do I need to change anything in my life to make me feel more confident around this? That's data for you. Avoiding it, you miss that personal growth opportunity. Right. And then you miss reconnection with your partner. I want you to tell me about the date. I just want you to tell me about like the first five minutes, or I just want you to tell me about what you liked about them. Or whatever that is to try it out and then I'm gonna share how it feels to hear that. And I'm gonna ask for cuddles or whatever it is that you need. You're doing it's the same I don't want to say repair because there hasn't been like a rupture per se, but there's been a disruption to your nervous system. Yeah. And now you're giving your partner the opportunity to comfort you in that. Now you're using that experience to build deeper connection, trust, intimacy, etc in your partnership than trying to avoid
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: reality and whether you avoid it by thinking monogamy means forever and they're never gonna XYZ rather than actually talking about it or if you're using don't ask, don't tell to pretend you're in monog whatever that is, you're avoiding reality, you're avoiding your relationship. You're avoiding building intimacy and trust and connection.
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-0: Can you help me understand the difference between jealousy and erotic jealousy? I guess and erotic conversion too.
speaker-2: Yeah, yeah. You'll find I'm a big fan of four quadrants. Two planes. So you'll hear conversion described sometimes as like the opposite of jealousy, which isn't necessarily accurate because I can speak from personal experience that you can have both at the same time. Confusing moment. Yeah. But
speaker-0: I I love a good quadrant. Yeah.
speaker-2: Think of it this way. So if they are on a plane, right? If compersion and jealousy, these are the emotional experience, right? This is just the emotional experience. There are physical attributes to them, yes. But the emotional experience of compersion is pleasant, feels really good. The emotional experience of jealousy, and I should say physical experience of jealousy, not so great. Doesn't feel good, right? The other plane is arousal. Unaroused, non-sexual, to fully aroused, sexual. Compersion and jealousy in the right secure setting with the right agreements and what I have found to be autonomy and agency, right? Security and agency, empowerment in a scenario can unlock that erotic potential when arousal is now here. It's still conversion or jealousy. When you're in jealousy and it's arousing, it's still jealousy. Emotionally, it's the but I'm turned on. You can also have conversion simultaneously or on its own and it can be erotic or not. This is not an evolved conversation, like you've mastered jealousy because now it's erotic, or you're broken because you can't get turned on when you're jealous. Like you don't have to any of these, and you're not like a better person. You're just cultivating skills, right? Again, relationship design, skill set, skills you can learn or not. Some people are more predisposed to conversion than others, some are more predisposed to jealousy than others. But there is no such thing as a jealous person or a compersive person. There are people. who experience jealousy or conversion and it can or cannot be erotic depending on the dynamic.
speaker-0: Fascinating. Thank you. The two axes. Click that into place even if it's not something that I can immediately relate to, because I think for better or for worse, I I don't think I've lived in all four of those quadrants. But if I'm lucky someday, I'll get to really feel your
speaker-2: I mean, I can explain to like actually the example that I just brought up recently with my partner where we realized, because of our lack of agency in our geography right now, we are disempowered in a scenario that is normally empowering. The erotic system is out the door. It's just jealousy. So if we're looking at again that four quadrant, like right conversion of jealousy, non-aroused, fully aroused, think of it like when you're in a scenario that is generally considered disempowering. You know, jealousy's been triggered. non-consensual sexual experience, like that sort of a thing. Your power is taken away, your agency is taken away. When you make an agreement to create an environment, you're choosing to be in it, you've set the practices around what this is going to be like. You're now putting your agency back in, you are putting the choice into your hands. You are empowering yourself in that situation and you're in a secure environment, a relationship, wherever you are, physically, all of that. You're secure in all of that. You now have a playground for potentially unlocking the eroticism in that. But from my personal and professional explorations, this is something I'm neck deep in right now, professionally. Well, and personally, that empowerment, that agency, that ability to choose is key. Without it, it's unsafe. It feels unsafe to your nervous system. And when your nervous system feels unsafe, feels threatened, you're not physically able, you're not able to be aroused in that way.
speaker-1: Right.
speaker-0: That makes sense.
speaker-2: That's again why it's like with kink, right? Everything is pre negotiated. If it's not, it's abuse. That's the main differentiator. Everything is clearly negotiated.
speaker-0: put so simply, if you didn't negotiate this ahead of time, it's just abuse.
speaker-1: Yep. Yeah, again it comes back to how powerful and important both intention and agency are in being able to choose dynamics that work and fit for you and being able to move with how those things need to evolve over time. I love that. Yeah. So I feel like we're bringing it home now. I don't know if there's anything else, Cole, that you feel like we haven't yet touched upon.
speaker-0: I mean only about seventy different things, but I'm already getting ready to ask her if she'll come back for a part two, so
speaker-2: You can always apply for coaching.
speaker-1: Yes exactly. Allie, is there anything that you feel needs to be shared before we close this conversation? Anything you feel that we should have discussed but we haven't yet touched on?
speaker-0: Exactly.
speaker-2: Yeah, I mean something I definitely want to leave your audience with is again, this isn't about monogamy versus non-monogamy, what's good versus bad, you know, ethical, unethical. It's about relationship design and understanding that it's a skill set, which means if you know you're struggling right now, it's okay. You can get better at this. And really understanding that relationship is something that can be designed and you can have a different relationship style. So I talked about my love of four quadrants. So
speaker-1: Yeah.
speaker-2: I created a four quadrant model for relationship styles. And it has to do with that very, very important key differentiator we touched on at the beginning of the conversation, that our sexual or physical needs are different from our emotional or romantic needs. And we can have a different exclusivity need for either of those. So if you think of, you know, your sexual and romantic two different planes, and then your need for exclusivity, then puts you in one of four relationship styles.
speaker-1: Yeah, no, exactly.
speaker-2: And so I created a free quiz to help people determine what their relationship style is. And then you get your personalized pleasure-led relationship profile. Say that five times faster. And it basically breaks down all the different types of relationship structures that can support your current relationship style, all the you know, speed bumps you'll potentially walk into, you know, what you're generally better at in a relationship and what your blind spots might be, all those kinds of fun things. And it's totally free at myrelationshipstyle.com.
speaker-0: I will be taking that that survey. I'm I'm dying to know. You put things in a way that they make it all suddenly make so much sense. So thank you. It's been really great.
speaker-2: can I get that soundbite?
speaker-1: Thank you so much, Allie. I first came across you through your content when I was also figuring shit out with ENM. So you've been really supportive to my own journey as well. And I knew this conversation was gonna be fun and just full of so much guidance and you know, depth actually. This is the stuff that we don't get to talk about in a detailed way. And I think every time we have conversations about this, we always learn something new. So thank you so much for sharing your wisdom with us. And yeah, please come back again.
speaker-2: I would love to. And if you're interested in finding that content that you just mentioned, I'm pretty easy to find on all the platforms at Passport Two Pleasure. And it's the number two. And that's my website as well, PassportToPleasure.com.
speaker-1: Yeah, we'll include it in the show notes so people can find it easily.
speaker-0: Thank you so much, Allie.
speaker-2: Yeah, pleasure.
speaker-0: That was dense, but in the best way.
speaker-1: I love how intentional she is about everything all the time. Yes. Right? It really resonates and actually yeah, she must think a lot about her felt experience all the time and how to adjust that. I think that's one of the great things of building these kinds of skills that she was talking about is that once you have that level of self understanding, you can navigate your own experience. with so much more clarity actually, because you just know what's going on for you.
speaker-0: And she's a really cool role model for that, someone who has taken the time to understand themselves and then translate that into strong relationships. It made me think that we should even do a whole episode on, you know, self love, the one long term relationship that we've got our whole life, as she said.
speaker-1: I know. There's that cheesy poem, isn't it? How does it go again? Something for a lifetime. yeah. Something a season a lifetime.
speaker-0: You're not about to quote RuPaul, are you? Teach a man to fuck. Wait, that's not it.
speaker-1: A reason a reason okay. You know that cheesy poem which goes a reason, a season, a lifetime where some people come into your life for a reason, some people are there for a season. Yes. And guess who's there for a lifetime? It's just me. It's just me, baby. Yeah. So take care of yourself. Yeah. Give yourself some love. You're the only one hanging around forever.
speaker-0: Mm. Whether you like yourself or not, so you may as well like yourself. I think the big takeaway for me is there's as many gradients of ENM as there are people and get over this binary of like, are you monogamous? Are you ENM? There's so many different ways to share sexual energy or share romantic energy, and we need to be attuned to whatever works for each of us.
speaker-1: Yeah, exactly. Right. Yeah. And just building a set of agreements together that w makes sense for both of you. Like that doesn't actually have anything to do with how somebody else might define them or not. So it's mostly just what works for me rather than how do I follow a model that somebody else has laid out in front of me. And there's there's hope for me yet, because apparently there are polyamorous men out there who actually are not afraid of of connecting deeply. So I'll report back in our next episode with her.
speaker-0: yeah, for sure. Good. Yes, that's good. I believe in you. Yes. I I believe in men. We can do this, men.
speaker-1: Please believe in men, because it's not just for me. All the the female listeners of this podcast were polyamorous. They're like, Yeah, me too. Alright, well, until next time. Stay kind, stay curious, and just a little bit deviant.
speaker-0: Take heart. Thank you everyone. Bye.