Dev to Dev S01 Theme - Leap First

speaker-0: Hey everyone, welcome back to another themed episode of Dev to Dev, the podcast about everyday video game developers and why they do what they do every day. This week we are tackling the theme of leaping first and not always being sure where you land. But a couple of guests from season one this time, so revisiting a bit of season one. Again, season one is on the Patreon, available if you subscribe and join Dev to Dev's Patreon feed. And these three guests all have really interesting. stories and really interesting outlook on how they leapt first and jumped into a role sometimes without really any planning, just going for it and sometimes redirecting their career from something they thought they were gonna do. So we start off with Matt Runhofer and his excellent story about being very focused on writing and doing the classic thing of moving to Hollywood to to become a writer and then finding his way into QA and video games at Square Enix. Then we follow that up with Joel Morillo, who talks a lot about his transition from a media editor into a camera designer. Now he very much took a punt on that, really, and saw the role and thought maybe I have the skill set for that, even though maybe you know, even if I'm perhaps not a one-to-one match, and landed that role. And then we finished with Nick Heindel, and we had some really interesting stories about his journey through COD Online and through the sort of engineering. side and then taking a a jump to move to Zoss and take on a technical designer role and also really interesting insight into how he pushed for accessibility to be a big part of his role and continues to focus on that. So three I think interesting guests with great stories that hopefully you'll enjoy re-revisiting if you're already listened to and if you haven't heard season one to give you a good hopefully a good motivation to go listen to the rest of it. Usual plugs, dev to devs everywhere, all on social media except for X. I'm not an X, boo to X. But please check that out. ⁓ please like and share as I post clips and and episodes. Please tell a friend if you enjoy the show and think someone else might get ⁓ value out of it. Please let them know. Please subscribe to the Patreon if you can. We'd really appreciate it. Appreciate that. And please leave a review as well on your podcast platform of choice. That would really help. All the usual plugs. I'm sure you're sick of hearing me say it, but I say it every week and you know, and please I appreciate everyone that helps out. Please continue to do so. But enough of my waffle. Let's sit back and listen into another themed episode of Dev to Dev, this time about leaping first.
speaker-1: I got my master's in creative writing from Full Sale University, which is great. And then after I got that I did the whole move out to LA and try to make it type of deal and slept on a friend's floor in a warehouse a block away from Skid Row type of deal. And I tried to make it. ⁓ theater called Theater Unleashed and wrote a couple things for them. ⁓ and then I got I landed finally landed an internship at a legit studio and and then ⁓ but it wasn't paying and I needed something that paid and I found I just said to myself hey video games I've always loved video games I've played them I should try this and I looked up Square Enix and they had a job opening for a contract QA tester and I applied. Didn't think I was gonna get it. I got it And then from there, like as soon as I went through the interview and saw the the off the cut, I think the office kind of sold me. Like you go up there, it's all official, like Square Enix. It's got a whole bunch of Final Fantasy figurines and like class cases and stuff like that. Like it's it's great. But then sitting down and talking to the people and I realized like, ⁓ these people are like at the same personality and level I am, which is great. Like I immediately bonded with these people, having only talked to them with five minutes. And then as soon as I got the position and I started working on ⁓ the game I told myself, like, okay, this is what I want to do for the rest of my like life. Like this is great because not just because I got to play video games all day, but because I loved the process. I loved the production, the development pipeline, all that stuff and how it worked. ⁓ I even loved watching them convert my bugs from English to Japanese so that the developers could actually fix them. Like I thought that was really cool. and so yeah, from there, man, like I think that's how I kind of launched myself into gaming and then yeah, ⁓ Ever since then it's been all about gaming.
speaker-0: Okay, wow. So there's so much there, I love it. So theatre was your passion. So and you said Virginia was where you kinda grew up, yeah. so we were you gaming at the same time? As is that was was gaming a passion or was theatre and the the filmmaking dominating your time?
speaker-1: I think like gaming has always been a part of my life. Like I remember my first memory of gaming period was my brother and my dad playing Dracula on the Super Nintendo in like ninety four ninety three, ninety four, and they couldn't get past the first part. I remember my dad getting frustrated about that. But then like just watching it, I like, ⁓ this is cool. And then from there, it it went from like my dad was a huge Link to the Past fan. Love Link to the Past. So I watched him play that religiously and then we ended up getting a Nintendo sixty four eventually and ⁓ I think that might be like kind of the the moment in my life where I really became a fan of video games because I never thought about it like outside of like, ⁓ my brother's playing it, cool. I never like you know, said to myself, I want to play a video game 'cause I was too young. But then I remember the day like I came home from school or something, I went into our little playroom Whatever it was, and my brother was doing something on TV, but I wasn't really paying attention. And then he just all automatically saw that I wasn't paying attention and just said, like, dude, we got a Nintendo sixty-four, and like I snapped over and looked, and he's playing Turok sixty four, and I'm like, ⁓ my god, this is amazing. You know, 3D, cool sh like all that. I'm like, ⁓ my god, what is this? And like from that I was enthralled with video games. And then we got was it Ocarina of Time? And my dad absolutely loved Ocarina of time and I loved watching him play and I think my love for video games really started and has even blossomed to now about like just sitting down and watching other people play the game. I don't know what it is. Like I love watching my brother play Metal Gear Solid, I love watching my dad play Zelda. It's like how I became ⁓ kind of really enthralled with video games. And I don't think it was until the PlayStation two era with I think the first two games we got were Connectica and Madden two thousand two. Where I really got into playing and started understanding, like, ⁓ I can actually do this. And then from there, I I played throughout high school, probably or middle school and high school, probably a little too much. Like my grades started to suffer because I was playing so many games and that's all where my focus went. And then once I got to college, I took a break from video games for about three years. Like I I maybe it's two years. I remember getting Modern Warfare 3, the original. at like the midnight release playing it and I just told myself like after playing that game I don't want to do this anymore. Not knocking the game. It just was like, I need to focus on school. I need to focus on film. I can't do this anymore type of deal. Because I think I spent twenty four hours total playing through that entire game and replaying it. And I'm like, I can't do this anymore. So I took a break from games and it wasn't until I was working at the theater and I got a PlayStation 4 that I kind of fell back in love with it because I loved kind of like the concept of streaming. 'Cause something I've always done, like I said, is watching people play video games. And that's exactly what Twitch is, or used to be. Like you watch people play video games. That is amazing. That is awesome. And so I told myself, I would love people to watch me play video games, so I got a PS4 to try to stream and do all that stuff. and so, yeah, like I was playing video games religiously, like middle school to high school, but then once I hit college and kind of after that, it kind of seldom ⁓ kind of deteriorated just simply because I got busy. I was focused on other things in life. And then once I started streaming on Twitch, like yeah, I built a community. I had friends that I played with, you know, but it wasn't like a religious thing at all. and then I think once I started like getting back into games, once I got to California, that's when I like really started picking it up again. And then actually Battlefield One, I think, is the game, which I believe you worked on, right, Alex?
speaker-0: I did, yep.
speaker-1: That's the game that kind of reunited my brother and I because we we you know, ⁓ he'd been living on the West Coast ever since I was like in high school, 'cause he's a he's a he's now a a first mate on a dread ship, ⁓ off the coast of off the off the west coast. And it was really that game that kind of brought me back to the camaraderie you can build within video games and where ⁓ yeah, our our relationship kinda blossomed again. And so that game will forever be my favorite multiplayer game of all time. Simp not because of like of course my brother, but also it's a great frickin' game. If you haven't played Battlefield One, it's it's it's it's up there. It's it's it's incredible.
speaker-0: Interesting, yeah, 'cause 'cause like looking at your career, like you said, you know, a a a number of performing arts and theatrical areas that you you mentioned kind of writing, theatre unleashed and ⁓ yeah, various writing roles. ⁓ and and you mentioned FulSale as well as as somewhere you went and obviously Full Sale is quite well known for its video game courses. Was there any overlap there? Did you see any or d were you very focused on the performing arts?
speaker-1: I had what was it? It was a it was it was a very ⁓ accelerated program. It was a year program where each month was a new a different subject. One of them was video game writing and or writing for video games, and we had to make our own game on Twine, you know, text-based adventure, which I really loved doing. I thought it was great because I had a very much a branching storyline that like some people just did linear. I was like, no, forget that. I'm going branching and trying to all that, like challenging myself to trying to figure out. And I loved doing that. But my main reason this is gonna sound funny, but my main reason for going to full sale was because back then my goal was to write for the for World Wrestling Entertainment. I've always been a huge wrestling fan and I loved ⁓ the s the the opportunities for storytelling there because not so much during what, twenty thousand twelve to fifteen, like the stories were okay. But like before then, like some of the storylines were incredible. And then even some of the storylines now are incredible as well. And I wanted to do that. And one of my one of my teachers was actually like the lead writer during the the Attitude era and all that. Did like the Undertaker Prince of Darkness, all you know, all that stuff. Like his first night was the night ⁓ Mankind got thrown off the hell in the cell by by Undertaker. ⁓ so like I as soon as I learned that he was my teacher, one of my teachers, I like I just confided in him and wanted to understand what I gotta do to make it into the business because ⁓ full sale is the home of WWE's developmental branch, the NXT. And so a lot of the students, like the film students there also run the productions for the the the filming of the for the weekly shows. And I ⁓ wanted to kind of use that to kind of like ⁓ elevate myself and get my foot in the right door, but my teacher kind of told me it's like If you wanna make it as a writer, you gotta have like T V credits. And if you want T V credits, you gotta go to ⁓ you gotta go to Hollywood and do that whole cake. So that was my plan moving out to Los Angeles was trying to build my credits so ca I could eventually go to the WWE.
speaker-0: Got it. Interesting. And and ⁓ what was it about WWE that kind of drew you the I mean th there's a there's a huge theatrical element to WWE, so I presume like you mentioned the stories, right? Just like
speaker-1: Yeah, yeah, it's it was mainly just, you know, the opportunities for storytelling. I mean, the stage is a very powerful setting for storytelling and I f I thought, you know, what's better than being able to tell a story and then just have two people like duke it out or four people duke it out as a part of that story. I mean, there's fights and action and stories and movies all the time, but doing that on a live stage setting, like it's in it's incredible. ⁓ so it really drew me because I saw a lot of opportunity there and that's just kind of ⁓ where my I guess my creative my creative juices were flowing towards at the time. and yeah, like like I said, ⁓ if it wasn't for me getting into games, I probably still would be in LA trying to make it, trying to write for the WWE.
speaker-0: Got it. Okay. Yeah, I could yeah, it sounds like a a a at one point it was a real passion, you know, a real destination for you, yeah. So so there's go back a little bit to the point where so you move out to LA, ⁓ you you know, you're trying to trying to find your find your place there, and and then you mentioned you kind of almost stumbled on the the QA the QA role.
speaker-1: Yeah, I was I was just looking for a legit job. Like I liked my my internship where I was just I was reading scripts and providing coverage on these scripts and, you know, getting into the nitty gritty of how a film production company works in LA. Super cool. ⁓ you know, a lot of lot of cutthroatness though, you know, that type of deal. But yeah, I needed I just needed a job. Like I needed money, honestly, ⁓ to stay and I didn't want to go back to the children's theater I was working for because I felt like I did everything I needed to do there personally. ⁓ I mean I could have if I wanted to, but I wanted to kind of brand my ⁓ or expand my horizons a little bit. And so I just started looking and I remember every time I drove out to like LAX or pick somebody up from LAX, like Square Enix's office is right there next to LAX and I was always seeing them like, man, Square Enix. Like I remember playing Or watching my brother play Final Fantasy Seven and then us playing Final Fantasy ten together and all that stuff. So it just dawned on me that like, let me just check to see if they have something. And I looked it up and they had a like I said, they have a QA contract position open. I applied to it and I it's one of those situations, like I said, where games were always kind of that untouchable force that I don't think I would ever do. And then I got the I got the email from the the hiring agency saying, like, hey, they want you to come in and do their their interview process and all that stuff. I was like, ⁓ cool. This sounds fun. And then like I said, when I walked through the front doors and kinda went in there, I was like, Yeah, this feels like home. It might not be like Square Enix might not be my home, but like the gaming industry feels like home. My parents or my family has always been super supportive, but they they were they were military. Like my both my parents were Navy dentists, so they were, you know, up at four thirty every day, come home at four every day, like, you know, rinse and repeat everything. But they were always super supportive and wanted me to kind of go for my dreams type of deal. ⁓ but ⁓ you know, they were also very realistic. You know, they're saying like you can do this, but you need to be able to support yourself. You need to be able to cook for yourself. You need to be able to do all these things for yours for myself. So I was I was raised very well in that aspect. And but I mean, like I said, my dad and my brother were big gamers. My mom my mom's not really a gamer, but she tried playing LinkedIn the Past once and didn't get out of the castle. She just turned it off and said, I can't do this, I don't want to be chased type of thing. ⁓ But, you know, they always they always loved the fact that ⁓ especially when I started working at Zoss or no, frankly when ⁓ when I when Dissidia launched and I sent them a screenshot of my name in the credits type of thing. Like that that I think they were like super proud of me of that. So that was really cool. ⁓ but they've always been super supportive. They don't really know what I do and what goes into it. ⁓ and I don't reveal too much at all, but I, you know, anytime an expansion was coming out for ESO, I would show them the trailer just to say like this is what I'm working on type of deal. And then my brother, he he's really into music. He he he's a phenomenal guitar player. He's in a couple bands in the Portland, Oregon area, but he he mainly fell into the the realm of of shipping and driving ships and things like that. So that's what his real passion was. ⁓ but yeah, no never never any kind of animosity or anything towards what I do. It's more so they always wanted to make sure like what I'm doing I love, but I'm also being able to support myself and I'm being realistic. I'm not, you know Trying to shoot for something I can't do and just kind of, you know, hitting h hitting myself in the head over and over until it doesn't make sense anymore, type of deal. Where it's like, you know, I'm constantly having to move back with them because my I had a fail endeavor type of deal. Like they wanted me to be realistic about everything. So it's also very much why I became an EMT because I was like, I can do theater, but it ain't gonna pay much first first few years. So I gotta have something in my back pocket. Luckily the job I did land, I was able to support myself. So but ⁓ that isn't always the case and you just have to kind of be realistic.
speaker-0: things. I I'm curious, just just one quick aside relate to that. Yeah. You mentioned moving to LA, right? Yeah, the the sort of the the the fantasy of moving to LA and trying to trying to land a job in Hollywood. Did they relate to that more or less than the I'm I've got a job in video games, right? Did did one of them scare them more? You know, was one of them did one of them seem more risky than the other? Like me?
speaker-1: Going to LA definitely scared them more because that was like me leaving the nest. Me going to LA and trying this thing because like my parents have been in the the military for umpty number of years my my and then my mom became a government contractor. So the idea of moving somewhere without kind of a sure thing set up or something stable set up was really frightening for them. And then, you know, I'm moving from Northern Virginia to Skid Row, Los Angeles also freaked them out quite a bit. So yeah, it was it it scared them but they they supported me, they had confidence in me and I reassured them like I knew what I was doing. You know, I may not know where my job next job is, but I know I am passionate enough and and talented enough to to do whatever it is I need to do.
speaker-0: After I got out of the military, I told my wife I was like, Hey, like, I have this creative energy in me that I've never been able to harness ⁓ because a the military's not the place for that. And growing up I just didn't really have those opportunities. ⁓ and so once I got out of the military, I was like, Hey, I have this creative energy and I really want to try to harness it, I wanna try to do something with this. So wife and I sat down, we kinda made up came made up with this plan. I was like, I'm you know, I'll give this three years. If I'm not s if I'm not successful being a creative, then I'll just I'll get a government job, use my veteran presses for whatever the case may be. ⁓ but yeah, it was it managed to be successful. ⁓ I went to school plaque is San Diego for VFX and compositing. I really wanted to like my goal was to be a motion designer. I really wanted to like work with V FX and particles and that kind of stuff, but I I never really got the opportunity to do that. ⁓ just like the the opportunities just never presented themselves. So I kinda went down the video production route, which eventually ended up me ⁓ working at Daybreak Games on their media department. Right, okay, yeah, that's interesting. So you're in the military for a while, yeah, like fourteen years in the Navy. How did ⁓ video games sort of overlap with that time in the military? Did they? Were you know, were they still a part of your life or it's funny 'cause they they weren't for the first half of my career. ⁓ I I went I went to the I went to the Navy, ⁓ left for boot camp in ninety eight and ⁓ my Yeah, I didn't I didn't exactly grow up with a lot of money, so I like my parents couldn't afford to buy me like that like the first era of PS one. So I skipped I skipped those couple of years and then I joined the military and it your first your first enlistment is just there's just way too much going on. You have too much to do to be able to gaming. So I basically skipped the entire N sixty four PS one era of gaming. and so by the time I got back into gaming it was with Final Fantasy Ten and ⁓ oddly enough ⁓ so I I got back into gaming, ⁓ when Final Fantasy ten came out in like right in the mid PS PS two era, I believe. That's correct. ⁓ so yeah, so s the short answer to your question is for the first half of my military career I was completely detached from gaming and then the second half when I I slowly kinda got back in with Final Fantasy ten. Right. Yeah, that means you missed Final Fantasy seven then, at least the first time around. But ⁓ I did, yeah. Yeah. I I've I've played it since I say I'm sure you went back to it. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But no, yeah, it was it was just weird to be thinking about it now, it's just weird to be f to have been d that detached from gaming. Like ⁓ you know, people talk about like, ⁓ Goldeneye parties, like I completely miss that. Like I just I just didn't have the opportunity to to to do any of that. But it must have been a massive leap though when you went from I guess sort of Super Nintendo era was, you know, maybe when you sort of stopped gaming and then now you're playing Final Fantasy ten on PS two. Like that's a heck of a leap. I I basically went from like t the the the most crude pixels price to like in three D, like, ⁓ my God, this is amazing. I ⁓ I I was one of those people that was like graphics can't get any better than the PS two. Yeah. And so so w I guess sort of the confluence then of having more time than you had at the start of your sort of military career and, you know, a big fan of fantasy game dropping, which you know was kind of a beloved franchise for you was what pulled you back, pulled you back in? Yeah, ⁓ pretty much. It was ⁓ I I would I would actually say it's that the ability to have a T V in my place. first my first year of the military I lived on board the ship so I couldn't Th there's no such thing as a personal space. So being able to, you know, move up the ranks and have the ability to move out of out of the ship and and have my own space and set on my TV and it's like, okay, now what do I do with my time? And that's kind of when I I I made the move back to gaming. Okay. Okay, so so so you're in the Navy for a while and you come out of the Navy with this creative bug. ⁓ what what do you what do you think triggered that? ⁓ it's just ⁓ I I don't know that anything triggered other than I've always had that creative energy, just never had the ability to put it towards focus it into something ⁓ professional, I guess I should say. Right. And w so were there other things sort of prior to that where you'd you'd sort of been flexing that creative muscle at school or, you know, in your personal time? ⁓ I was always I I guess the closest thing I g I was able to do was just like ⁓ I had written my own like D and D settings. So like I would put that energy into like just writing. It it was all terrible, but ⁓ it was just one of the few things that I felt like I could do with that energy 'cause it was just not that the the the ability to or the opportunity to do that often. Yeah, yeah. So I guess yeah, it became another outlet for that creative energy. Okay. So so you've kind of always felt like you've had that creative spark in you and maybe not had enough opportunities to to express it. And then what was it about visual effects and, you know, that that kind of felt like the the the way you want to express that creativity. So one of the things that I really liked about the program that I was in at school is it was like the first year you kind of got like intro levels to intro classes to a bunch of different ⁓ disciplines. And once I like the first time I opened up After Effects and I was and I kind of started messing around with moving things around and I I dropped in a plug-in for ⁓ particle effects and I was just like okay wait what you can do this much with Just starting from this little point of ⁓ from this little emitter, and I was just like I was like, okay, I need to be able to explore this, and I just kinda went ham on it. Right, interesting. So so I guess that felt like a way that you could express that creativity tangibly, right? And ⁓ presumably you had a lot of flexibility in how you expressed it in that in that way. Yeah, it was just it was the idea of being able to take I was just used a particle emitter because the first thing in my mind I just take a particle emitter and I just I can manipulate it in such a way that like I can make this whole unique thing from just this one starting point. And so the idea of like being able to do express my creativity that way and then I'd hopefully being able to apply that to a to a professional career was just really enticing. And ⁓ I just kinda that's just kinda made me just start running in that direction. Right. Okay. Interesting. And and and you said that, you know, that you didn't maybe get the opportunity to to do that professionally in the way that you wanted to, but video production also kinda became something you were attracted to. Was that just another module or was that something that you kind of felt a similar vibe in? Like how did that happen? So ⁓ yeah, ⁓ living in San Diego, there isn't a huge VFX industry out there, or or at least there wasn't at the time, but I'm not sure what it's now. So like trying to pursue that in San Diego just didn't really lead to a whole lot. ⁓ however, there were a lot of opportunities for video production, which and I'm not one to just pass up on on things to come up, so like every time the opportunity came up, I would take advantage of it. You know, I've done everything from like local commercials to to f ⁓ you know, f ⁓ food photography, you know, whatever the case may be. Like I just like if the opportunity presented itself I would take advantage of it. And ⁓ I kinda just eventually found myself ⁓ constantly just being referred to or being asked by other people like, Hey we worked together, you were great. Let's do another f let's do another another shoot. And ⁓ eventually I was just like, okay, I'm just doing this on a regular basis. I guess I'm now a video production guy. Right. I guess that that led to some of your kind of wedding photography stuff you did and and and motion designer as well, some work that you did around that around that time. Yeah. I worked at a company called Passage Productions while doing some freelance video video ⁓ v freelance videography. ⁓ and there I got a chance to do a little bit of motion design, but it was still primarily ⁓ video production. We did everything from like I said, like local mall spots to like training videos. I mean, it was it it was it was a breadth of stuff. ⁓ not all of it was super exciting. I don't ever want to spend seven weeks editing shipping container safety training videos again, but you know, it paid the bills. Right. Yeah. Very diverse suite of things and subject matters. Right Absolutely. ⁓ what I'm going to ask a dumb question, but what is motion design? Can you explain what that what it is? So motion design is the it's I like to say that it's graphic design with keyframes, right? It's the ability to take ⁓ like spinning tag not spinning text is awful 'cause that's terrible motions that but it's like ⁓ it's like when you see like title treatments and ⁓ ⁓ yeah. It's graphic design with keyframes, right? It's it's title treatments is the ability to like have, you know, like your words on screen and and have everything look cohesive. It's ⁓ being able to take someone's graphic design. Usually you want to take someone being able to take someone's graphic static graphic design and then add motion to that in order to make it that tiny bit more appealing. Got it. Okay. Interesting. Right. That that sounds like a a a fascinating ⁓ and again a very varied role. ⁓ okay, so you're doing that kind of freelance, doing some photography for for a while. and then you mentioned sort of daybreak comes up around sort of two thousand sixteen. Like what how did that happen? How did you find that role? How did you learn that role? Yeah, so the school that I ⁓ black college, they had a like big like alumni thing once a year. ⁓ and I I would attend those obviously when I was in school and then afterwards. And one time I went I went in there and this gentleman by the name of Andrea Padigia, he was working at what was Sony Elon Entertainment at the time and Him and I had kinda gotten to know each other and he was ⁓ I kind of saw him as a little bit of as a as a mentor, ⁓ 'cause he helped me a lot through school, kind of just kind of skin and understanding of just just creative industries in general. And one time he just he we were both talking. He was like, Hey, I I've seen a lot of your work. ⁓ and we have an opportunity coming up our on our on our team. ⁓ and then we just kinda s chatting and about, I don't know. Probably six months later after that, w ⁓ he was able to bring me on board and then that was kinda my entry into the industry. ⁓ that's great. Okay. Yeah. So so you sort of made the connection before the role was even available and then you had the right skill set to be straight considered for it straight away. A little bit of luck and a little bit of timing and yeah, kinda made it work. Yeah, exactly. It's great. ⁓ and so so you went in as kinda multimedia producer, like what was the what was the focus there? So the focus there was to support all the games ⁓ that SOE slash Daybrig was w doing at the time. So it's it's creating all the content for ⁓ for for marketing. So they would come to us and say, We need we're running this marketing campaign, we need this many gifts, we need this many videos, we need this many ⁓ s ⁓ screenshots and then we would just create all that content, package it out, send it to them and they they then they would do whatever whatever their their social media slash marketing plans ⁓ dictated. It was ⁓ it was everything from like here's this super cool trailer down to just like we need four second rotating gif of this new weapon coming out. It was just kind of the entire breadth of of of marketing needs. Right. So so you were doing full on video editing then as well, I'm guessing, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. at at daybreak we did this thing that I really enjoyed where like there was four of us and then for each project there would be you know we would rotate through there would be the lead editor and then ever then the other three people would support that person. So it would be like ⁓ and normally when you're editing we you know The context switches can be difficult. So like the other person the other three people would do the the the capture so that you could just be feeding constantly feeding video into your edit until you get the perfect sequence of shots. And so I at that ⁓ on that role I got the the chance to not only just create the edit and and put everything together, but also be like a virtual director, like I need you three to run over there and do this. You okay, start shooting, not trigger the enemy, this sort of stuff. So yeah, depending on Depending on which project I w we were assigned to, I I got the chance to do a bunch of different stuff of that nature. Those trailers, especially ⁓ anything that requires actual gameplay capture, requires way more time and energy than most people realize. Especially because we I at least at daybreak, we had people who like their job was to just scroll through our trailers frame by frame and if they would find one f one hitch frame, they're like now redo the whole shot. So it could I two meta trailer could easily take us four weeks. And in single player games, especially if you have access to the back end, right, you can still do sequencer stuff, you can get your shots perfectly and then just maybe kinda redo it 'cause stuff is there. But like in multiplayer games, a th those tool sets generally don't have any sort of capture suite and so much can go wrong. You can run it perfectly thirty times and still find missing frames or or stats that are hedged up. It's yeah, it's a pain. Got laid off from daybreak when they when they kind of imploded. ⁓ and then Ben Jones, who I worked with there at the time, he called me up and he was like, Hey, we have s we have a need for your skill set. ⁓ are you willing to come out here and work? ⁓ so wife and I sat down and we talked for a while and we just kind of figured out it like, Hey, why not give it a shot? Right? Like just being in the military, we've we've been used to moving, so like it wasn't that big of a deal. Well, I don't want to say it wasn't. I mean it's we we moved literally from one corner of the country to the other. But ⁓ we sat down, we figured out it was like, Hey, this is an opportunity, why not why not why not try it? Let' let's see let's see how this goes. So we just packed up our stuff and a month later we moved from San Diego, California to Baltimore. Right, literally from coast to coast. ⁓ yeah, yeah. From corner to corner too, right? Yes, that's true. It sounds like, you know, you and the wife, you know, had a very let's do it kind of approach, which, you know, is is great. I mean having done something similar, you know, it's it's amazing to be in that position to have that freedom to go try try that out. Yeah. I mean and not having kids ⁓ kind of helps with that considerably. So ⁓ i if if anyone with a family is like I'm not uprooting my family, I completely understand. For sure. Yeah, yeah. Okay, so so you make the move, you know, corner to corner over to Maryland and ⁓ and you join as a multimedia specialist. So was it a similar similar kind of role initially? It was almost the exact same role. It was doing the exact same thing. It was just a matter of like learning the new engine, understanding the tone of the ⁓ of working ⁓ or creating content for e for Elder Scrolls Online. ⁓ so yeah, it was it was literally the exact same role. Right. Okay. Right. So so an easy easy transition professionally, even if I'm sure a challenging one personally to to move and and and and sort of settle in a new area. ⁓ and so you did that for for you know just over year, you know, just over a year or so. and then you make the shift into K into camera design so into into in you know ⁓ development of the actual game rather than capturing you know and and producing content around the game. So how how did that come about? So I remember seeing a post for ⁓ our the the new game, the ⁓ Blackbird that ⁓ Xenemex was working on and I remember seeing a job posting for a camera designer and I spoke with ⁓ Dave Metelson who was the ⁓ lead design lead gameplay designer at the time and I asked him I was like What what is this? Like what does the camera designer do? And we sat down over lunch and he just kind of explained it and I was like, I feel like I have enough relevant experience where I can maybe give that a shot. And he was like, Well, do you wanna try it? And I was like, I mean, I I was like I f I think that I can do I think I have enough knowledge that I can kind of get this started and if you want to hire a senior camera designer to come in and then after that after ⁓ after that and kind of help me just sort this all out. I think this will be great, right? 'Cause another thing that they were looking for was someone to kinda help like kind of ⁓ what's the right word? Like educate part of the team on like what does a cinematic camera look like as well as like what a cinematic lighting look like. And I was so I was like, hey, I can come in, I can provide that education. I'm I'm familiar with BL film sets, I know how to light, how to use cameras. ⁓ and so conversations kinda went back and forth a couple a couple of times. They gave me a test. to ⁓ to see if I can if if I was just it wasn't just full of hot air. ⁓ and so took the test, gave it, and then eventually they were like, okay, cool. We we'll bring you into the team. We can you can get get all the camera design stuff started and we'll hire ⁓ then we'll hire a senior camera designer to to to kinda train you into this new role. Spoiler alert, it never happened. Yes. Lots of promise but ⁓ diffic I mean I I'm not surprised you asked that question, like what is a camera designer because I think it is a unique role that not every studio would even consider having. So I'm I'm I'm fascinated how having heard what the role was, and I I think I I think I know the answer, but I'm kinda curious to hear it from you. Like what about your skill set made you feel like I could do that job really well? I have a how do I say this without sounding conceited? ⁓ I I feel like I have a very good understanding of sis ⁓ like what looks good in a frame. Mm-hmm. ⁓ and I also think of myself as a pretty decent video editor, so like I I I felt like I can present a game. I can present games in a way that like maybe game des usually don't think about. Right. ⁓ I'm very much focused on like that window to into the world, right? Like we are creating it this functional, beautiful three D space. But at the end of the day, players interacting with that through a through a flat two D window. And I felt like I could use my knowledge of of cinematography and to help kind of push that forward a little bit. And once I saw the requirements and kind of what they were looking for, I was like, I have some gaps in my knowledge, but I feel like I can do this with a little bit of of of help. Yeah, I mean I that that that makes complete sense to me, especially w you know, even before looking at your history, like the way you would speak about camera and framing make you know, i is definitely, you know, is the kind of knowledge that helps to ⁓ an area that is often forgotten, right? I think when you look at a lot of games, especially third person games, right, how the game is being framed is not thought about that much. It's like, yeah, no, it's you you've got a right stick and you move the camera around like what? Like what are you gonna do? It's like, well, actually there's a lot you can do. Absolutely. Yeah. I I'm of the mind like my favorite saying is the best camera is the one that you can customize and the ones that the player doesn't notice. And I feel like when you do a good job, the player will never notice. ⁓ when you do good camera design, the player will never notice. But if your camera design is terrible, holy crap will they know. And I am like I'm just very passionate about making sure that like which is kinda weird thing to say, I'm very passionate that my work is never noticed because I know I did a good job. Yeah, very similar to audio folks and, you know, like the best soundtracks are the ones that you don't notice, you know, 'cause they're just so impactful, they're so part of the f the texture of the thing. Yeah, I completely agree. It's almost like a thankless thankless task. It is. And and I'm sure when you know, when you look over the the the the motion design, the the a lot of the gameplay capture stuff, right? Like so much of gameplay capture is about framing the game in an interesting way. Yes, often in a way that the player would never be able to play the game from, but Frequently it is, right? Frequently you're trying to capture those moments. So yeah, I can completely see combined with your photography experience. I mean it's makes complete sense that you'd have a good grasp of the camera, whether it be a digital one or a or a real one. Yeah, that's that's at least that's kind of the way I be I bullshit my way into it. So But what about the test though? So so they handed you a test, like how did that feel and how did you approach that? the so the the test it was like I want to say it was something like eight or nine like open ended questions where they asked general game def stuff. And ⁓ yeah, I just I was just honest. I was just like here's what I believe, here's here's my reasoning both ⁓ professionally as a as a video production ⁓ person, here's what I would do, here's why here's why I would do it as a gamer, as a as a as a consumer. ⁓ and then I just I was just honest and I was blatantly ⁓ yes honest on my ⁓ what my gaps in my skill set I felt like were right. ⁓ I had worked with game engines in the past ⁓ you know, ⁓ both at daybreak and when I first got to to Xanamax. So I was familiar with that, but like there was a lot of like the really in depth ⁓ technical depth stuff that I was familiar with and I just kind of just laid it all there and apparently was good enough. Yeah, clearly. I mean I mean I think I think you were an excellent fit for what is a very unusual role, right? To like we said, to to hire for and to find the right person for. And I I think that almost worked in my favor because ⁓ we spent years looking for a senior camera designer. ⁓ it was just such a role that e I don't know, maybe they were just looking for the perfect unicorn or there's just not enough people that were qualified for for for what they were looking for, that it was just like every time we had some kind of interview they was like, Well, this person isn't quite the right fit. ⁓ Which is a whole nother thing we could get into that I have problems with, but anyways. yeah, ⁓ it but the the niche the nicheness of the role kinda worked in my favor because we could just never find that right person. And so I eventually just kinda had to self taught my you know, I had to self taught into the role in order to make it kinda kinda fit 'cause i it was just very difficult to find someone with the relevant experience.
speaker-1: When I made the commitment to, okay, I know I can make games and I want to make games and I'm gonna push for that when I was in university. ⁓ I was also like, well, I'm gonna have to move. I'm I'm gonna have to move somewhere. ⁓ and I knew, okay, there's Raven. That's pretty much it. And I I have I did learn after. There was a few other options, but not many. ⁓ and this was before remote work in games was generally acceptable. So ⁓ I was just I kind of resigned my fate to yeah, I'm gonna move somewhere. And I and I was cool with that. I was never expecting to stay in Madison. And yeah, so I ended up working full time at Raven and I was kinda like, yeah, I'll probably be here, you know, for a little bit, but then after whatever my next gig will be, I'll have to move, you know. ⁓ didn't end up having to do that. ⁓ so it's been interesting as I've been here the whole time. But yeah, ⁓ it was cool because I didn't have to move. Like I was still in the same place. ⁓ my partner was taking a I don't remember if she was during if she was in her gap year or if she started her master's program that year, but ⁓ either right away or a year into my job. ⁓ so she started doing a master's program at the university as well. So it was like, okay, cool. We're we're here for a bit. and ⁓ yeah the transition between intern and full time it didn't feel like there was a transition. It w it was so natural. It was like, you know, the team that I was on, the multiplayer gameplay team, ⁓ they were so fantastic, really nice, really smart people and really humble and friendly people. ⁓ and when I was an intern, like I was making I felt like just one of them. I wasn't like the intern in the corner doing their things. I was like, no, I'm here doing whatever needs to be done, just like everybody else. And ⁓ contributing things and ⁓ still like getting pieces of ownership that that at least could be finished within a few months, right? That was the big, the big barrier. I I do remember when the summer finished, I think it was Black Ops three. the ⁓ Raven was working on the last gen ports for Black Ops three and they were on fire. It was ⁓ it was very tough. ⁓ and so they asked like can you stay here to help ⁓ I was on a game called Call of Duty Online, which is a Chinese only ⁓ Call of Duty game, which is a hidden gem. It's so cool. I love it. ⁓ it's very weird, very creative. But they asked me, like, can you stay to to work on CODO so we can move some other folks over to help get Black Ops out the door? And I was like, I'm sorry, I I need to finish my degree. ⁓ but I'll be back, right? So I I came back and ⁓ yeah, I I was put on the same team, the multiplayer gameplay team. It really It was just so natural and everybody was so welcoming. And yeah, I didn't have to onboard actually the I think I wrote the onboarding stuff as an intern. So like I was like, it's all my stuff anyways. ⁓ yeah, and just ⁓ was able because I was there full time now, I was able to ⁓ take ownership and do feature work for things that just kind of last naturally that that take longer to do. So that was really great. ⁓ Yeah, and I did all sorts of stuff. ⁓ it was it was a super fun project to work on for sure.
speaker-0: Yeah, sounds like a very diverse one. And and in that sort of multiplayer area as well, which you sounds like the the you know, types of games that you like to play, you were kind of drawn to multiplayer.
speaker-1: Yeah, you know, it's funny. I like I definitely like all kinds of games. ⁓ there's there's very few genres or games that I am not fond of, and there's definitely none that I dislike. ⁓ it's at this stage of my life I do tend to prefer single player games. ⁓ but that's not to say that I don't like multiplayer. And ⁓ when I was growing up I definitely had a a phase where I was really into Call of Duty, Halo, Had a Counter-Strike 1.6 phase at internet cafes and stuff like that. ⁓ and ⁓ so I knew that space, ⁓ even though I at the time I wasn't playing Call of Duty or Battlefield or anything like that. Like I knew that space pretty well. And the project that we were on, Call of Duty Online, ⁓ it was a live service, free-to-play game, ⁓ Call of Duty game in China. It was originally forked from Modern Warfare 2, which at that at that time was already Old. and that was to sort of meet the much lower min spec PC of the Chinese market. And I think a lot of the PCs there were actually also in internet cafes in China. So we were sort of targeting those. ⁓ And because it was live service, and Activision didn't really do live service then. Like ⁓ this was it. Like ⁓ and so it was really interesting to kind of be part of that and learn about live service because the industry was just starting to kind of under like it was just starting to be a term. and we were pushing stuff so fast and sometimes it was just throw it at the wall, see if it sticks. ⁓ sometimes the team didn't necessarily have faith in an idea, but it was like, well, why not? Let's just try it. Maybe maybe they'll like it. And I think ⁓ that was also a really strong education in game development by real going through really fast dev cycles of of features and game modes ⁓ within live service, but also doing so in a market that was inaccessible to us otherwise. So for context, if you wanted to play Call of Duty online outside of mainland China, you had to I I have one friend that actually was wild enough to do it. ⁓ Shoutouts to them. They're fantastic. But I believe they had to spoof a Taiwanese passport and get a bunch of different VPNs to hook up to just to be able to log into the game. And so you couldn't really play it outside of work. And what was neat though was that really taught me like, ⁓ people play games differently. ⁓ and you know, like I mentioned in college, I studied linguistics, and I've always been interested in. in different languages, different cultures. And so this really spoke to me of like, whoa, how do people what's different about playing games in China than playing games in the US? And you start to dig and learn, you're like, ⁓ there's a lot, actually. ⁓ you know, there's of course a ton of similarities, but no, there's it's like where they play games, how they play games is just kind of different. And ⁓ design sensibilities and what they find interesting can be different. ⁓ and that really opened my eyes up as a dev too to kind of Have a wider lens of when you're making stuff, like, are you just doing it for your lens, for your perspective of the world? Are you being more inclusive of the rest of the world, how they view things, ⁓ what they find fun ⁓ might be different from what we find fun. ⁓ there was an example of a mode that we shipped that was it was a melee only, it was a third person melee mode with like swords and stuff. And like this is Call of Duty, right? Like i this is Modern Warfare two. So that's odd for our for folks that grew up playing Modern Warfare two in the States, ⁓ or in the UK, right? Like ⁓ But that was like one of our most played modes in China. So, you know, that was one of the one an example where we were like, this isn't gonna this is weird. Like, what are we doing? And we we tried our best to make it fun, but ⁓ we were like, this is just so fundamentally not caught. Like, what's going on? And ⁓ yeah, I mean, they loved it. And that was just one of many examples of things that you learn of like, ⁓ yeah, like people react differently to things and there's different trends and there's different styles. One thing that we had in our in our ⁓ store was the ability to rent items. So you couldn't always buy like a new gun that comes out. You couldn't buy it, if I'm recalling correctly, like outright. But you could rent it for a week and then your access afterwards would go away. And like I when I saw that, I was just like, what? Like you know, because this is before battle passes. This is right before battle passes. ⁓ And that whole concept just felt so wild to me, but then you like, you know, you dove a little bit more into the Chinese market and you looked at other games like Nijon and Crossfire and you're like, ⁓ they're all doing this. And it was ⁓ it was really interesting to as somebody who played games their whole life and has loved games and had always tried to absorb as much as I could about games and game culture to kind of learn, ⁓ yeah. That's just a small piece of the pie. Like there is so much more out there and ⁓ people are doing wild and wonderful things everywhere. So yeah. But when I moved from PUBG to Zoss, ⁓ I actually initially applied to to continue to be a gameplay engineer. ⁓ because ⁓ Zoss was opening up a studio presence in Madison. I knew a bunch of people that were there and I was I was like, you know, that sounds really cool, right? ⁓ But when I applied, one of the folks in Madison actually like poked me and was like, ⁓ hey, ⁓ you should you should look at this position instead. ⁓ this technical design. ⁓ they had worked with me before and they were like, this is like you would be great at this. And I was like, I've never really heard of tech design before. Of course I can kind of grok what it means, but I had such a strong identity as a as a programmer, as an engineer, that at first I was kind of like slightly offended. I'm like, what? Like, ⁓ you know, may am I not good enough to be an engineer? ⁓ but I read into it and ⁓ I did the interviews and especially after the interviews was like, ⁓ no, this is this is so great. This is like all of the best things that I love about ⁓ gameplay engineering is that gameplay engineering is often at the center of a lot of the creation process. You have to interface with design, art, animation, audio, VFX, ⁓ engine programmers, network programmers, tools programmers, like ⁓ And that's the part that I loved was sort of being able to communicate and coordinate with all these folks as well as actually bring stuff in. And ⁓ at Zoss, they were starting this new team up for tech design. ⁓ that was very similar to that. So I was like, Yeah, let's do it. So ⁓ I jumped in and yeah, I loved it. And I ⁓ of course, in the years since doing that, or as I was doing that, learned more and ⁓ looked up more of what is tech design across the industry and ⁓ It's funny because it is a little bit different everywhere. frankly, just like game just like every role, just like gameplay engineering, especially like tech art. ⁓ you know, it's whatever the studio needs is sort of what the role dictates. And ⁓ but overall, like I love being in that nexus and helping ⁓ bring things to life while coordinating with all the relevant parties. And so yeah, from tech design, ⁓ eventually moved into accessibility full time. ⁓ but that's an interesting story because on paper it's like, ⁓ I just moved from you know from one position to another. But really what was happening is that whole time, that whole like eight years or whatever that I'm talking about, ⁓ from starting at Raven, moving to PUBG, moving to Zoss, I was doing accessibility stuff and actively interested in it and trying to push it as much as I could, ⁓ to varying degrees of success at all the places. And I learned a lot about ⁓ not only what is good game accessibility and, you know, by watching talks and and making sure that I was staying current with industry trends and where things were going, but also like, how do I talk to my coworkers about this stuff? Where at the time game accessibility was very much not ⁓ a phrase that was heard ever, or very often at least, right? ⁓ So you had a lot of these really talented game developers, especially at at Raven, just by the nature of it being such an institution, ⁓ you had these folks that had decades of experience that just have never heard of it. They've never been exposed to that as a phrase. And ⁓ you know, figuring out as a as a developer, how do you approach folks that ⁓ might not know what you're talking about? In fact, they almost guaranteed have no idea what you're talking about. ⁓ and they're also under the wire to finish. whatever they're working on, and how do you sort of reconcile that? ⁓ and I think that was something that I learned throughout that whole process of ⁓ being able to really understand the debt perspective of when folks don't know what you're talking about and they're under the under the gun to get stuff out and get stuff done, it's really hard to to ask or push for anything really. And with accessibility, there at especially at the time, there was a lot of baggage with ⁓ misinformation or misunderstanding of what accessibility is or was or what the goals were. Just in the greater industry, the Dark Souls question always came up. and ⁓ you know, th that being like, Well, Dark Souls is is hard, it's supposed to be hard. You're not supposed to make it easy, and it's like, Well, accessibility isn't about making it easy. So, ⁓ Stuff like that. And ⁓ yeah, so I was always trying to sort of push it. And I'll say I got the bug initially, because I at one point had no idea what it was either. And I went to GDC. ⁓ I think it was after my internship at Raven. ⁓ while I was still in college, but after my internship before full time, and ⁓ I stumbled upon the game accessibility summit at GDC. I was just wondering. I I didn't have, you know, ⁓ I didn't know many people there and I ⁓ didn't have a set schedule for for some of the days and so I just kinda was like, yeah, that sounds kinda neat. I have no idea what that is. And I like instantly was like hooked and was like, Holy shit, this is like this is a whole new world. Like this is really fascinating and this opens up so many different like design issues in games and design considerations and ⁓ You know, there's a huge segment of players that a lot of game developers aren't even thinking about. And ⁓ you know, I also at one point was in that ⁓ that same group where I'm like, Yeah, how would a blind person ever play Call of Duty? Like you know, ⁓ and then you start to learn, like, ⁓ okay, here's how, here's the barriers that they're going through, and here's how we could make it easier. ⁓ for them to actually enjoy the experience and like you start to kind of break it up by that. And that was my big like light bulb moment ⁓ was seeing that and everybody there was also super nice and welcoming. And I was just a little student, you know, like, ⁓ this seems neat. ⁓ and everybody was so cool. And since then I've had the bug and ⁓ every time anything game accessibility would sort of come up, whether it was a GDC talk or an industry paper on ⁓ Or eventually when the game accessibility conference started, every year I would watch all of those and ⁓ try to sort of push it as much as I could at wherever I was. ⁓ and I do remember when I was interviewing at Cinemax Online for the technical designer position, ⁓ I straight up said to the game director, like, just to let you know, I also really am passionate about game accessibility. I will be doing that. Like, you know, of course I'm gonna do my role as a tech designer and I also love that work. I I really deeply love that kind of work. ⁓ but in my free time, like I will be doing this. ⁓ if that's not something that you as a as a game director or as a studio want or care about. Okay, that's fine. ⁓ but like I'm I'm putting it out there on the table. And ⁓ at the time I really didn't know where that where that was landing, right? ⁓ and I found out after the fact that everybody was like, No, that's awesome. Like, ⁓ it was fortunate that we were with ⁓ we had some some great leaders that understood the benefit of it. ⁓ but yeah, I was able to kind of continue that push and eventually was able to get a full time role doing it, which was a is a whole other story. And ⁓ yeah. I know I'm kinda rambling. It's kind of
speaker-0: No, it's great. It it's it's yeah I love that journey is you know, you you you found a you carved a niche for yourself that to your point is often misunderstood and often not spoken enough of. I'm curious if there was a draw to the accessibility stuff that w that related to you as a person, right? You know, do you I mean it sort of correlates with, you know, being interested in different languages and you know, it sort of correlates with some of the stuff you've spoken about, but but was there something about the accessibility that really spoke to you as a person, as a human?
speaker-1: Yeah, I think ⁓ of course there's that aspect of sort of the ⁓ the the cultural aspect of hey, there's this like group of people that are often ignored or neglected by society that are playing the games that you're playing with you. ⁓ and maybe we should consider them when we're actually making the games and just not ignore them. So there there's part of that where it was like, ⁓ wow. Like so it's similar to, you know, where ⁓ those that that core interest of wanting to learn more about the world, wanting to include more folks into what you're doing. ⁓ I will say too, like growing up, I was ⁓ like my personal experience with disability was I was around it a lot in school. I was in the I I actually don't even remember what the proper term was, but I was in like the I was in a special ed program in elementary school. But it was for like bad kids or kids with like behavior problems. Cause I was always acting up and I was always talkative. ⁓ turns out if you just gave me a math workbook, I would be fine. Or if you ⁓ you know, you shoe me away to the computer in the corner, I'm good. I just need to be doing something. ⁓ but ⁓ from that, you know, like growing up, I had a lot of experience working with ⁓ not working with, sorry, but being around different types of disability. ⁓ not just what we would normally what a lot of people would normally think of as physical disability. I Ironically enough, was not around folks with physical disability too much, ⁓ but with a lot of like mental disability. And ⁓ so it was just kind of always there. and something that I had a lot of empathy for going through that, ⁓ you know, ⁓ without getting too deep in it, like going through that process. There's a lot of trauma. There's a lot of ⁓ a lot of tough times within the school system. And I don't know, if folks are are curious, you can Google the school to prison pipeline. Like it's a very real thing and it it's a a portion of the school system in the US that can be very easily overlooked or or hidden ⁓ within plain sight. And ⁓ I was able to sort of get out of that program thanks to a lot of wonderful people advocating for me on my behalf. ⁓ but a lot of other folks aren't that aren't as lucky. And ⁓ I think that sort of helped at that core, you know, I've always been somebody that rooted for the underdog and that rooted for folks that were maybe marginalized in in some way. And I think a lot of it comes from that where I was that person ⁓ for my early childhood especially. Like I ⁓ yeah, ⁓ I know that I've had a lot of ⁓ luck and a lot of privilege being who I am and being in the position I am. I'm a reasonably intelligent white dude from the US. Like there's lot of benefits and and ⁓ privilege that comes with that. But especially growing up, ⁓ it was like a totally different ⁓ experience of feeling very othered, feeling very marginalized within the school system. ⁓ oddly enough, I was always very social sociable and the students never had issues with me. ⁓ like I I always had friends, but it was sort of like learning about institutional. systems that can really hold people back. And ⁓ yeah, anyways, I think that that at its core really helped contribute to bringing a lot of empathy for, hey, I might not know a lot about ⁓ certain like physical disabilities, especially. Like I might not have a lot of ⁓ friends or family that have gone through it, but everybody knows somebody that has had a disability. It's so it's so common. It's so prevalent. ⁓ and ⁓ Yeah, they wanna play games just as much as you do, right? So
speaker-0: Yeah, and I it's ⁓ I think you can really trace that line, you know, in this conversation from, you know, that experience through, you know, the type of games you you sort of were drawn to early on through, you know, a fortuitous GDC game developer conference kind of moment where you where those the there was sort of a confluence of those things and then caught online and you know, and ultimately fight advocating for that role in an interview, like that 'cause you you were that passionate about it. ⁓ I think that's amazing to sort of see that that manifest you've sort of willed it into you know into into being and got some great I you know, the work you did at at Zoss on ⁓ on the accessibility side was was so exciting and, you know, it gives you such good experience moving forward.
speaker-1: Thank you. Yeah, thank you.
speaker-0: Well that's it. That's the end of this themed episode of Dev to Dev season one. Hope you enjoyed it. I when I assembled this episode I had no idea it was gonna be an hour, so it's basically a full episode. Yay. I hope you enjoyed that. I think some wonderful insights and wonderful Conversation and and I think these clips warranted more time because just because of the the the quality of the content and I'm super proud of those episodes. Super proud of every episode I've really enjoyed and do really enjoy making the show. On that note, I appreciate everyone's patience during this interim between season two and season three. Next week, season three begins. ⁓ kicking off with a really great conversation with a A good friend of mine and I'm not gonna reveal who he is, you'll have to listen in to to hear it. It's a great conversation. It's a l w a a long one. I think it's w again, I think it's worth it 'cause there's some brilliant insight. And I'm really excited to get season three going again. It's been fun doing these revisits. Both the the re remasters of old episodes and the assemblage of these themed episodes has been fun. Hope you've enjoyed it too. But anyway. Moving forward, we begin season three. That does mean that season two will be moving into the Patreon archive. So if you want to continue listening to season two or you want to catch up on season two, you'll need to do that through the Patreon starting from next Monday. Again, I appreciate everyone's support there. Please subscribe if you can. But I'm gonna get out of here and get to editing season three. Thank you again for listening and catch you next week.