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00:00:09.641Hi, welcome to CSI on Fire, the podcast that takes you behind the scenes of the fire investigation community.
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00:00:18.711I'm your host, mike Moulden, and episode after episode we'll attempt to excavate the often difficult but always fascinating world of the fire investigator.
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00:00:26.525Hi everyone, welcome to CSI on Fire.
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00:00:29.292Just a quick couple of updates and announcements.
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00:00:36.334I guess the CSI on Fire podcast is going to be moving to a bi-weekly publication, simply because very exciting news.
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00:00:41.171I'm very pleased I'm coming back to the UK, back to my friends and family, back to a new job.
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00:00:42.603So exciting times.
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00:00:44.610Tell you more about that a little bit later maybe.
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00:00:46.887But yeah, just to cut down on the cost.
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00:00:52.485I hope you're enjoying the podcast and just conscious that I'll have another full-time job, busy job to do as well.
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00:00:56.326So yeah, that's the reason behind that, just to make sure that I can keep going.
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00:01:00.921Quick shout out to Scott and Chastity on the InFocus Fire Investigation.
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00:01:03.067The Fire Investigation InF Focus podcast.
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00:01:04.831Keep giving me shout outs.
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00:01:06.183So fantastic podcast.
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00:01:08.108They come out every two weeks as well.
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00:01:13.932Thoroughly recommend it, particularly if you're starting out on your first kind of in rows into fire investigation.
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00:01:19.441I'm going to try and alternate, actually, so that their podcast comes out one week and mine comes out the second.
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00:01:21.444I hope you're really enjoying the podcast.
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00:01:24.768Do give me any feedback, do give me any suggested.
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00:01:25.588You want to be a guest?
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00:01:32.165You're always welcome on I'm not sure guests, but I'm always up for new guests and different topics etc.
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00:01:36.364And we're going to come back to some of our old guests as well, who I think we've got more to add as well.
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00:01:41.382So just to also give you a shout out about some of the conferences that are coming up.
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00:01:46.572So the irish association fire investigation they've got their conference on the 9th of october.
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00:01:51.424So that would be a cracking one, I reckon, and a good crack after in the best irish traditions.
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00:02:01.070Also to say the new south wales association they've got their australian arson fire investigation conference on the 21st, the 23rd of october.
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00:02:03.930So again, some real massive speakers.
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00:02:06.061Cameron novak's going to be there as a keynote speaker.
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00:02:09.010It's going to be a really fantastic conference, I think, that one.
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00:02:17.054I only wish I could go to it Theory Day, I think, on the first day, or the first day, and then a Burn and Learn on the second day, which is always fantastic.
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00:02:23.086So it doesn't matter which stage of fire investigation career you're at, always learn something from a Burn and Learn.
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00:02:25.371So yeah, just to give those a shout out as well.
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00:02:28.295Welcome to CSI Fire, fire Investigation Podcast.
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00:02:30.359This is episode 28.
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00:02:33.347I've got a fantastic guest on today I've got James Aycock.
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00:02:34.390Welcome to the podcast, james.
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00:02:35.421Thank you, Mike.
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00:02:36.627Thank you very much for having me on.
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00:02:46.354Well, it's taken us a little while to match up our diaries, but we finally got there, and I know you've been busy today with kids back at school and all that and balancing work and home life.
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00:02:48.495So let's start with as we always do.
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00:02:51.236Let's talk about you, james, and give us your background.
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00:02:52.758How did you get into fire investigation?
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00:02:57.169How you've ended up on the podcast today, thank you so much so.
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00:03:02.663My journey into fire investigation and forensics actually started when I was at school.
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00:03:10.462If you recall, at some schools at the end of term last day of the year, some of the teachers allowed you to watch a film or bring in board games.
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00:03:25.893We had a high school science teacher that used to wheel in the television into the science lab and he used to play us forensic documentaries that he'd recorded off the TV and that just really captured my interest right from kind of secondary school kind of level.
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00:03:33.223So, following A-levels, I then studied forensic science at UCLan as the degree and we did various different modules.
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00:03:34.806That was my first introduction.
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00:03:41.472We had a couple of modules that included some FI practice as well as some of the chemistry and bits like that that we was looking at.
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00:03:55.623I just really enjoyed the everything that we did prior, that we were doing a lot of the csi skills, and to me it was the csi was kind of instructed to a scene where they knew a crime had been committed and then you were just trying to kind of put the story together.
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00:03:58.377But with fire investigation you were starting from the beginning.
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00:04:08.474You didn't know what had happened, you didn't know whether it was a crime, so you were kind of completely and to me it seemed to be the one forensic discipline where you were kind of totally digging out.
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00:04:14.727You were doing reconstructions, rebuilding in labs and taking appliances apart, and that really just really interested me.
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00:04:20.973So right from my undergraduate dissertation I chose a topic linked to fire investigation.
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00:04:25.180I was looking at accelerants and different detection methods.
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00:04:39.346That put me in touch right from the outset with the UKFI, which I think it was in its first year of establishment at that point, also with the kind of had created links at that point, just reaching out as an undergraduate student to the fire college.
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00:04:46.211Following completion my undergraduate degree I then went on did a master's in fire engineering at UCLan.
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00:04:51.149I wasn't at that time aware there was a fire investigation master's.
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00:05:03.214So fire engineering, building design, how to cope with a fire and kind of in theory that if you understand how the building should design and cope with a fire then you can kind of read it backwards to understand what's happened in the fire and spread that way.
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00:05:16.492To understand what's happened in the fire and spread that way, I think, as a lot or some of your other kind of guests mentioned following coming out of my master's degree I was keen to get into fire investigation and I started speaking to a couple of the fire rescue services.
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00:05:20.307At that point there was no civilian roles in FI in the UK.
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00:05:40.990Some were kind of talking that if I joined the fire service as a firefighter and kind of there was a progressional route through the ranks up to station officer that you might end up in FI in several years time and there was too many ifs and buts in kind of that for me and I went to a few interviews that I was being told I didn't have enough experience of fires.
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00:05:44.444That had the academics in that background but not fireside.
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00:05:57.547So then summer of 2004 I was kind of fortunate enough to kind of almost do an internship at the fire service college, working in the fire department or the fire investigation department.
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00:05:59.071We was there.
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00:06:01.262I was there setting up the containers for the burns.
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00:06:14.069I was there I think it was three quarters and the lectures, and then when I wasn't at the fire college and during the week I was riding with London Fire Brigade and going out to shots with those at the weekends and that was really good.
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00:06:20.449And that summer I also went I think it was Interflam and that was up in Edinburgh, the fire science conference.
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00:06:24.769There was also the first symposium of fire investigation conference.
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00:06:29.129That was a us uk collaboration and that year it was held at morton.
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00:06:58.523So that was great to meet all these experienced fire investigators and talk to them and from there that led to me getting a role as a fire investigator within the private sector for a consultancy and kind of my route has come on onwards from that point of view, that kind of having joined the consultancy and kind of my route has come on onwards from that point of view, that kind of having joined the consultancy, then went through quite a long period of shadowing another investigator that and this is certainly a tip that I've used with other investigators I've helped with the training, development of that.
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00:07:12.492My training kind of went through different stages that I was shadowing to start with and then you kind of being asked questions and asked to describe the scene, what you were seeing to another investigator and kind of writing ghost reports, as we called them.
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00:07:43.672So it was a second report just only stayed in the file and once kind of those ghost reports were matching the primary investigators report kind of, you then start to take the lead and whilst being accompanied, you take the lead, I produce the report and they signed off and then that led to me kind of being fire investigation kind of on my own and going from there and being sure, sure since then and I joined fire investigations uk in 2013, so being with those for just over 11 years now.
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00:07:52.276So that was my route to my investigation fantastic, I think, the mentoring side of it and that ghost reporting.
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00:07:53.180I think that's really useful.
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00:07:58.331Very similar kind of exercises that been mentored and then gradually over time and time.
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00:08:02.637That that's not just for the benefit of your employer, I guess it's also for the benefit you.
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00:08:19.141I found that really useful doing those ghosts and when I've mentored a couple, both CSIs and FIs, getting them to do their own set of photographs, for example, and then having a comparison of what you've done and what they've done and then talking through that, I found that really useful both as a mentee and also as a mentor.
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00:08:21.463Fantastic, james, and you've got some big names.
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00:08:24.766In UKFI and OFI UK there's some big, big names.
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00:08:26.990I see Steve's just sort of rejoined.
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00:08:30.673I don't know if it was rejoined, but yes, he's come back into the foray, if you like.
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00:08:33.136So that's good to have Steve back on the practical side.
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00:08:47.306Solar panels so I've done a couple of solar panel jobs, but fairly limited.
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00:08:49.916So once again, selfishly, I'm just trying to educate myself and hopefully other people will get it as well.
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00:08:52.785So solar panels what are they, how does it work?
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00:09:01.100and we'll get into that yeah, absolutely, and as I think you've discussed with other groups, that world of fire investigation is constantly evolving.
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00:09:03.423Do technologies change things that you're looking at?
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00:09:12.347So when I first started we wasn't looking at lithium battery fires, wasn't looking at PV and renewable fires, wasn't looking at the hybrid and electric vehicle fires, so kind of.
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00:09:20.100As these technologies become more kind of commonplace, then we kind of have to evolve as FIs and bring them into our skill set.
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00:09:30.855So being involved in a few solar panel fires, kind of pre or between 2011, 2015, I'm starting to see a little bit of a trend.
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00:09:47.220But back in 2015, the Department of Energy and Climate Change, as it was the government department, then became the Department of Business, energy and Industry Strategy and lots of kind of government changing names of departments.
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00:09:57.471They commissioned BRE and BRE's National Solar Centre to undertake a fire research project into kind of fires in solar panels and fires across those industries.
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00:10:08.543That was a project that was led by BRE forming kind of research of literature, standards and training, re forming kind of research of literature, standards and training.
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00:10:23.893But FIUK were tasked with assisting of investigation of live incidents, which meant we were being deployed to a number of solar panel fires, the different types of system, from domestic and commercial ones, and that kind of gave a real insight of some of the issues that we're starting to see in solar panel systems.
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00:10:33.020We all understand that solar panels kind of comprise some form of panels that are either on the roof of a property or kind of ground mounted From.
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00:10:44.986There's some equipment, normally in the inverter, that generates or converts electricity converted from the modules, and then there's some switch or switch gear that just regulates and allows you to isolate the array.
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00:10:50.738So there's different parts of the PV to be aware of and different fires.
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00:10:53.346We can have rooftop fires, we can have plant wind fires in PV.
00:10:53.346 -->
00:10:58.726It depends on the type of equipment that you've got, where it's located and parts like that.
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00:11:05.389Yeah, so in terms of like DC, does that represent any kind of health and safety issues to us as fire investigators?
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00:11:06.596Yes, absolutely.
00:11:06.596 -->
00:11:06.898So.
00:11:06.898 -->
00:11:08.964There's different risks involved with the PV.
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00:11:09.546That it's not OK.
00:11:09.546 -->
00:11:14.398As soon as you switch it off on the ground floor, the array is obviously still generating.
00:11:14.398 -->
00:11:18.299As soon as you switch it off on the ground floor, the array is obviously still generating.
00:11:18.299 -->
00:11:22.162The generate is a direct arc, so a lower DC voltage can give you kind of more of a belt on electrocution.
00:11:22.162 -->
00:11:23.462So there's different ways.
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00:11:32.028You do have to be careful and obviously as fire responders and fire investigators be aware that the system may be energized by turning off.
00:11:32.028 -->
00:11:37.171The isolation switches can cut or will cut the electrical current and the flow of electricity through the circuit.
00:11:37.171 -->
00:11:40.293We could still end up with live voltage under the system.
00:11:40.293 -->
00:11:52.366So you just need to be aware of some of the voltage that can be there and some of the practices to break down the voltage to make it much safer at lower levels and provide safe working for electrical installations.
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00:11:58.322Yeah, I mean it's funny because, well, not funny, but it's ironic in that one of the big jobs I had was at hospital.
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00:12:00.047I won't go into too much details.
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00:12:03.889I'm not sure it's been finalized, but I put the origin down to the fireman switch.
00:12:03.889 -->
00:12:14.265So the actual isolation switch a bit of research that I've done that that seems to be fairly common is actually where the switch is the isolation switch, or where the dc comes in and you're trying to.
00:12:14.265 -->
00:12:17.581There's some high resistance or some difference in current there.
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00:12:22.399Is that your experiences as you've investigated it yeah, absolutely.
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00:12:23.725There's various components.
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00:12:27.801I'm trying to go through those that investigators should be aware of and consider.
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00:12:35.505But the investigators should be able to understand the system, how the system works and from the fundamentals of what's actually involved in the system.
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00:12:40.416There's a difference between kind of what we know as on-roof solar systems.
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00:12:50.557So that's kind of when solar panels are applied to conventional house and you still have your roofing tiles, but you normally have an aluminium frame that lifts the panels up over the roof tiles.
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00:13:04.586What we tend to see on new builds and develop developments are in roof systems where the solar panels would be fitted in lieu of roofing tiles so they would have a weatherproofing tray or mounting system underneath the panels.
00:13:04.586 -->
00:13:11.325The panels seem to be a little bit more flushed with the roof line and then it's just being aware of the system that that's there.
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00:13:18.567So we don't take any single component in isolation but you look at what is the mounting and what's the panel and, as you say, the switch gear.
00:13:18.567 -->
00:13:25.611So as part of the project and since then we have seen a large number of buyers, as you say, with the dc isolators.
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00:13:38.842So you have, typically you have a switch on the dc isolator as it comes in between the panel and the inverter and you would have an ac isolator coming from the supply from the inverter between the panel and the inverter and you would have an AC isolator coming from the supply from the inverter between the meter inside and generation.
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00:13:47.846On the DC isolators we've seen well general poor electrical workmanship skills, kind of loose connections, items like that.
00:13:47.846 -->
00:13:52.001We have seen issues where switches have been incorrectly rated.
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00:14:00.707Because the DC switch has a lot more power, you have to use a switch that's correctly rated for that level of DC current that's put into it.
00:14:00.707 -->
00:14:18.163And if anyone's kind of taken off the cover for a DC switch, what they might see is kind of several loops of a cable and by switching the current through multiple contacts within the switch you break down the energy of the switching arc that opens or that occurs every time you open and close it.
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00:14:40.278Now what we have seen is where some of the switches have been poorly configured or underrated for use or someone's even used an AC rated switch for the DC side and at that point the switch just kind of isn't capable of taking the internal switching arc and that starts to break down and damage the contacts, kind of arcing, and that fuses them together and you end up with localized heating inside the switch.
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00:14:46.937Yeah, we've seen a few fires or dealt with fires within the actual pv array itself, within the modules.
00:14:46.937 -->
00:15:00.282What can happen there is we see examples of or crimping or incompatible plugs, the cables that come and anyone that's kind of dealing with fire investigations on the array.
00:15:00.962 -->
00:15:05.080We'd always kind of specify you need to try and identify what's referred to as the string cables.
00:15:05.080 -->
00:15:15.916So if you picture a solar module, it comes out the factory with two cables on the back of them and you plug that to the next panel to create a series string-like battery.
00:15:15.916 -->
00:15:21.698So you take the positive terminal from one panel, connect it to the negative panel at the next panel and so forth.
00:15:21.698 -->
00:15:24.187You make a chain which increases the voltage.
00:15:24.187 -->
00:15:32.919The trouble is those connections that get supplied on the solar panel are factory fitted and would have gone through the quality assurance checks in the factory.
00:15:32.919 -->
00:15:43.447But at the end of each of those cables you'd have the string connectors which have been assembled on site and they might not have as rigorous quality kind of checks on those.
00:15:43.447 -->
00:15:50.785So always try and identify the string, the ends of the string, look at the quality of the connections, the connections that they use on there.
00:15:50.785 -->
00:15:59.865They have issues with, apart from incompatible, but also forging or components that kind of pretend to be one brand but but aren't.
00:15:59.965 -->
00:16:07.928And then there are cheap imports from china, yeah, yeah they're not very rare, but again, just things to be aware of.
00:16:07.928 -->
00:16:12.303And we also saw a lot of issues at the time with weatherproofing.
00:16:12.303 -->
00:16:20.836So where people have, some of the inverters are designed to be installed outdoors and the isolator switches are designed to be installed outside and are weather rated.
00:16:20.836 -->
00:16:29.149Numerous cables incoming in through a cable gland at the top of the switch will defeat the weatherproofing and allow water build up inside the switch.
00:16:29.149 -->
00:16:32.355So we've seen several examples of those and still continue to see those.
00:16:32.355 -->
00:16:34.140So there's some of the issues that we've seen.
00:16:34.201 -->
00:16:35.624Seen several examples of those and still continue to see those.
00:16:35.624 -->
00:16:37.547So they're some of the issues that would be okay, I've got you.
00:16:37.547 -->
00:16:39.750So incompatibility, and also they're like clipping clips, aren't they?
00:16:39.750 -->
00:16:43.048They're kind of like two bits of plastic and they clip in together.
00:16:43.048 -->
00:17:09.268And I guess, making sure, installation wise, that you've installed them correctly, making sure that the actual quality of the clips I guess manufacturers on their panels would state the standard and the quality of the connection clip, and I guess that's not always followed when an electrician comes along or another subcontractor comes along and maybe uses lesser quality clips or something, always, as you say, just been conned in the sense of he thinks he's buying MK stuff and he's buying some knockoff from somewhere else.
00:17:09.268 -->
00:17:10.309But yeah, that's interesting.
00:17:10.309 -->
00:17:17.368And of course we've got the normal connections with electricity and sort of corrosion, poor connections, high resistance, that's all still applicable.
00:17:17.836 -->
00:17:25.349Yeah, absolutely you get both of that on the DC and the AC sides that if things have been poorly installed you're going to get localised heating.
00:17:25.349 -->
00:17:30.787It's quite rare to get a serious fire that takes out the array and the inverter.
00:17:30.787 -->
00:17:43.777But particularly on a lot of domestic properties in the UK we might find that the inverter and the switch gear is actually involved in it or installed in the loft space, which the number of fires are very, very rare and certainly I'm not looking to kind of cause any panic.
00:17:43.777 -->
00:17:46.346You know that we're in an industry where we get drawn to fires.
00:17:46.346 -->
00:17:55.279There have been a very small number of fires but where they do occur, in the switch, in the inverters and in the loft, that it's much harder.
00:17:55.279 -->
00:18:00.055That it's just a case of identifying the components that are there, identifying the systems and going through.
00:18:00.916 -->
00:18:12.537So that's quite useful to see from that sure if I turn up at a fire scene and I suspect that we got localized in the roof, for example, and you've got localized sort of fire damage, what kind of things should I be looking for?
00:18:12.537 -->
00:18:13.759Is there a kind of checklist?
00:18:13.759 -->
00:18:14.800Is there a recommended?
00:18:14.800 -->
00:18:26.320You've got 921 and that kind of stuff but from your experience, what were the sort of things, what were the steps you go through to identify and eliminate other potential causes of the fire and hone down on the solar panel?
00:18:26.740 -->
00:18:27.784yes, absolutely so.
00:18:27.784 -->
00:18:33.084You say all your usual methods to consider everything else and all other potential sources of energy.
00:18:33.084 -->
00:18:39.356You're working out where there is electricity, what other circuits are available, and then it's great just to kind of go through the system.
00:18:39.356 -->
00:18:43.928As I say, if you've still got the array you can start the well, first checks kind of.
00:18:43.928 -->
00:18:47.528We always kind of carry voltage meters and we're able to kind of do checks.
00:18:47.528 -->
00:18:53.866I'd say to the environment investigator kind of assume that the panel is energized until you're confirmed that it isn't.
00:18:53.866 -->
00:18:55.855It's been switched off.
00:18:55.855 -->
00:19:02.864And I say that comes a little bit harder if the switch gear is inaccessible, but just kind of assume that the cables are energized.
00:19:02.903 -->
00:19:06.376I know that some fire services kind of will try and cut into the cables.
00:19:06.376 -->
00:19:13.617By cutting those cables reduces the strings and by decreasing the number of panels that are connected together you break down the voltage.
00:19:13.617 -->
00:19:22.891So kind of each panel on its own should be kind of putting out 40 volts, which is much safer to work with than the hundreds of volts that you can get in the long chains of solar panels.
00:19:22.891 -->
00:19:26.865Trying to go through the system, identify how the string is laid out.
00:19:26.865 -->
00:19:32.003If it's a conventional house and you've got six to 10 panels on the roof, then they're all likely to be part of one string.
00:19:32.003 -->
00:19:43.186When start getting into the or complex fires and the commercial pv fires, you're going to end up with multiple hundreds of strings trying to working out where's the start of one, where's the end of another string.
00:19:43.186 -->
00:19:58.267And I'm working through that way and then kind of going through if you can access the isolation equipment, the inverter, either if they're totally damaged, and finally we're looking kind of for evidence of connections, kind of that we normally do with any other electrical appliance at that level.
00:19:58.267 -->
00:20:07.259One thing I quite like with the pv fires is in fi, we really like data kind of as much information we can get about fire.
00:20:07.259 -->
00:20:11.174We like it when there's cctv footage or doorbell footage of a fire.
00:20:11.877 -->
00:20:19.428And what I would say is, with the pv systems, whilst it's new technology, a lot of the pv systems that are out there are smart systems.
00:20:19.428 -->
00:20:21.654So that might be a lot of people.
00:20:21.654 -->
00:20:37.157If they're paid and invested to have solar panels on their roof, they're likely to have a display down in the kitchen or somewhere else in the house that tells them how much their pv system was generating at any time if they're making money and people kind of like to see this data.
00:20:37.157 -->
00:20:41.587So as an investigator, we should be trying to source some of that data.
00:20:41.587 -->
00:20:44.630It could be just a case of speaking with the homeowner of the property.
00:20:44.630 -->
00:20:51.778If they've got cloud access, they might be able to show you the records on their phone or send you a computer printout of what the panel was doing.
00:20:52.722 -->
00:20:59.285If they haven't got a portable display or a cloud-based system, then that data should still be in the inverter.
00:20:59.285 -->
00:21:05.522So, providing the inverter's not totally burnt out, it will be possible to safely re or disconnect.
00:21:05.522 -->
00:21:15.859Everything can then re-energize the inverter either in the scene or in a laboratory, be able to connect over a laptop or a phone or tablet device to that inverter and you should be able to extract the a laptop or a phone or tablet device to that inverter.
00:21:15.859 -->
00:21:36.126And you should be able to extract the data log of generation files, what the pv system was doing, data layer, any error messages, and again, that can be really useful for pv that when you've got multiple strings as we see kind of rows of the panels, you can start to see if there was a fault with one particular string or if it was underperforming compared to kind of everything around it.
00:21:36.126 -->
00:21:42.548So I'd always say there's a wealth of data around PV panels that FIs should be kind of looking for and trying to get.
00:21:43.154 -->
00:21:59.439OK, fantastic, I mean, I guess it's a bit like a fire alarm panel in the same interrogation wise, but from what you're saying and you're looking for, what are you looking for in terms of you're looking for error codes, or you're looking for one panel over a period of time generating less electricity, or what were the sort of things you'd be looking for?
00:21:59.861 -->
00:22:01.227just any anomalies.
00:22:01.227 -->
00:22:10.063Really, I think in fire investigation there's a lot of kind of understanding the patterns of kind of what's going on and looking for changes that have things kind of stopped working.
00:22:10.063 -->
00:22:21.897And you can then use that data that say, if you've got a large commercial display with many hundreds of solar panels, then that data could help you kind of focus in on a particular area of an array of multiple panels that are burnt.
00:22:21.897 -->
00:22:38.347And then that's where we would use our scene skills from fire investigation that we're going through and we're distinguishing burnt connectors from those that are electrically damaged and then assessing and understanding whether that electrical damage is causative or whether it's a consequence of fire attack.
00:22:39.069 -->
00:23:05.145Sure, there's a little bit of a difference that with the DC cables that you don't tend to have so many short circuits that where we have, say, in AC cables, where you have twin and earth in the same insulation, you would have a positive and negative short circuit, where with the DCs, because the positive and negative short circuit where with the DCs because the positive and negative cables are separate conductors is both would have to be bridged or damaged and touching for a short circuit to occur.
00:23:05.205 -->
00:23:07.914But what we tend to get more of is inline arcing.
00:23:07.914 -->
00:23:21.807So where a connection, either a crimp or the the mated part of the connector starts to fall and you tend to get a dc electric arc kind of jumping across that gap, that then occurs in the conductor you tend to.
00:23:21.807 -->
00:23:24.781The connections are well made and well assembled.
00:23:24.781 -->
00:23:29.300Even in severe situations you don't tend to see inline arcing across the connector.
00:23:29.300 -->
00:23:43.851The inline arcing it does tend to be an indicator of a poor connector but like any evidence, you need to assess it with the totality of the scene and everything else you identify sure, in an ac system you'd expect the circuit breaker to cut in and actually maybe protect the system early.
00:23:44.231 -->
00:23:45.938And that's the other problem with dc, isn't it?
00:23:45.938 -->
00:23:49.816I'm not going to put words in your mouth or anything, but that's my understanding.
00:23:49.816 -->
00:23:57.366Correct me if I'm wrong, but because it's dc and, as you said, it's constantly, there's no kind of cut out from the sun, if that makes sense yeah, no, absolutely.
00:23:57.586 -->
00:24:23.539When we look at ac fires we look at where the electrical installation comes into a property and then you would have the meter and the fuse arrangements going out and then say, in uk, plug sockets, we would have additional fusing so you can start to trace your protection back where in dc again, remembering, your electricity is flowing the opposite direction, so it's not going from the inverter to the array, it's coming from the array into the inverter.
00:24:23.539 -->
00:24:28.780It's kind of any fuse or any protection that's in and around the inverter doesn't protect the array.
00:24:28.780 -->
00:24:31.069And certainly I know that well.
00:24:31.069 -->
00:24:34.859You have international listers and there's different requirements for pb installs.
00:24:34.859 -->
00:24:39.068America and Australia, compared to UK, compared to national wiring regulations.
00:24:39.068 -->
00:24:47.450The majority of domestic properties in the UK kind of don't have fuse protection on the DC side and the only protection kind of will be in the inverter.
00:24:47.450 -->
00:24:51.523So there isn't that level of protection that's there and kind of.
00:24:51.544 -->
00:25:02.919There are other systems, but again they're not compulsory in uk wiring megs, for you have things like fireman switches or rapid shutdowns which they use a lot of in the us pv systems.
00:25:02.919 -->
00:25:17.601A rapid shutdown is a switch that when it loses normally ac power or loses the grid or it can be linked to the fire alarm and the fire alarm operates, the rapid shutdown can shut down the voltage, kind of at a module level within the array.
00:25:17.601 -->
00:25:22.922Again, this technology is available in the UK but tends to be more optional specification rather than required.
00:25:22.922 -->
00:25:26.959So again, it's just understanding if those type of systems are there.
00:25:27.500 -->
00:25:31.680The other thing just to be aware of on some solar panels they have module inverters.
00:25:31.680 -->
00:25:46.395So instead of having one big box that then is bulky and goes on the wall either in the loft or in a plant room, you can have small little boxes that sit on the back of every single module so that converts it into ac and then it runs the ac down kind of from panel.
00:25:46.395 -->
00:26:15.922And again it's keeping up with changes in technology that we now get PV systems fitted with optimizers, which is again is another little plug and play box which now fits in between each solar panel you're connecting right and the optimizer that should there kind of be some shading or drop of generation on one part of a module or part of the array, the optimizer kind of kicks in and adjusts the amount of electricity being generated so the optimal amount of electricity is always coming out of the erase.
00:26:15.922 -->
00:26:23.506Again, it's just another technology that's included within the erasers to be aware of, and then obviously, battery systems as well.
00:26:23.547 -->
00:26:29.048Now that, yeah, into the shop have you seen, because obviously cost of electricity, that kind of stuff.
00:26:29.048 -->
00:26:32.559I've seen a couple of homemade lithium battery sort of banks.
00:26:32.559 -->
00:26:34.605Have you seen some homemade solar?
00:26:34.664 -->
00:26:54.440yeah, we have seen some homemade battery banks that people have put in and disassembled electric vehicle batteries and converted for home use, but there's a lot of battery systems in circulation in the uk that don't have any issues and, again, providing you're using a correctly specified and installed system, then it should run without any problems whatsoever.
00:26:54.440 -->
00:27:02.821So we have seen some issues with either poor installation or, as you say, homemade battery packs, which are never recommended interesting.
00:27:03.323 -->
00:27:05.696One of the things I wanted to talk about is sort of a myth really.
00:27:05.696 -->
00:27:11.583I think you know one of the things especially in the uk, even on a cloudy day, it's still generating electricity.
00:27:11.583 -->
00:27:15.238So I've heard people say, well, it couldn't be the solar panel because it was a cloudy day.
00:27:15.679 -->
00:27:30.477Total nonsense, really yeah, absolutely obviously the amount of energy and coming out of the solar panel it increases better on a sunny day ensures as well that you're more likely to generate a higher amount of electricity on a cooler day than you are, kind of a mid-summer day that's full of sunshine.
00:27:30.477 -->
00:27:36.868But if the panels are starting to get too hot or starting to get warm just through operation, that can have effect on the generation as well.
00:27:36.868 -->
00:27:45.032So yeah, we've seen fires at kind of certain peak times of the day, but only because the fire occurs outside of those times.
00:27:45.032 -->
00:27:46.517It doesn't mean you can't exclude it.
00:27:46.517 -->
00:27:56.553You kind of have to understand what's going on and with the system as you said, the totalitarian effect of it all yeah and say a lot of the issues of poor connections and things like that.
00:27:56.573 -->
00:27:58.336we know resistive heating is degenerative.
00:27:58.336 -->
00:28:10.221There's no way of kind of estimating or predicting the rate of deterioration because it depends on the oxidation cycle of electrical connection, heating up and then cooling down and growing kind of that way.
00:28:10.221 -->
00:28:16.153The more it heats up, the higher the electrical resistance, higher the temperature and then it kind of goes into that degenerative cycle.
00:28:16.486 -->
00:28:21.352Yeah sure, and then it kind of goes into that degenerative side.
00:28:21.352 -->
00:28:21.553Yeah, sure.
00:28:21.553 -->
00:28:30.486Also, I think I wanted to say that the little bit of research I did ready for you coming on really, mate was just about sort of foliage covering and the panels being dirty and in specific areas you can get hot spots and stuff like that.
00:28:30.486 -->
00:28:31.951Would you agree with that?
00:28:32.594 -->
00:28:41.942yeah, absolutely the solar panel should have the protection built in them that, as you say, if they develop kind of shading, as it's called, if part of the sun was blocked off, they've got diodes into the solar panel should be the protection built in them that, as you say, if they develop kind of shading, as it's called, if part of the sun was blocked off, they've got diodes in.
00:28:41.961 -->
00:28:44.095So the solar panel should be able to balance that and it shouldn't be a safety issue.
00:28:44.095 -->
00:28:56.856It just means that how your main energy generation is dropping off, particularly commercial ones, there should be a regular maintenance regime.
00:28:56.856 -->
00:28:58.417That kind of fall.
00:28:58.417 -->
00:29:07.664We do electrical checks and electrical inspection of AC circuits and we do those in all businesses and commercial properties and rental properties.
00:29:07.664 -->
00:29:10.394It's up to homeowners if kind of they want to do them.
00:29:10.394 -->
00:29:14.496But that system of electrical installation check doesn't kind of cover the PV.
00:29:14.496 -->
00:29:26.704But you can get specialists in that will come and do a PV safety check and they'll look at some of the temperatures, they make sure the panels are clean and they measure the voltages and currents coming out the string to make sure that's in line with design requirements.
00:29:27.586 -->
00:29:46.019certainly kind of any commercial installs should have a regular maintenance regime in place and hopefully that would pick up any issues or defects because before they become a major issue and I get and I think the other thing to say as well is that you know, when we go to scene, we're obviously, if it's something of that nature, we always ask for maintenance sheets when was it?
00:29:46.019 -->
00:29:47.385And also, when was the last time?
00:29:47.385 -->
00:29:56.520If someone's been in the day before, if someone's come in and done a new install or done some maintenance the day before, that can also be a consideration within the.
00:29:56.520 -->
00:29:59.070Was that causative to the actual fire itself?
00:29:59.070 -->
00:30:02.030So yeah, good, interesting stuff absolutely it's.
00:30:02.171 -->
00:30:09.194This is different levels, that a lot of the installs on domestic properties kind of it gets plugged in and it runs until it stops working.
00:30:09.194 -->
00:30:21.252But saying that we have been involved in fires where where I was involved in one on a school installation and when we went back and asked for data, the pv system had actually been offline for a year and hadn't been generating.
00:30:21.252 -->
00:30:26.009Oh wow, okay, it was a fire that self-extinguished again in an isolator switch.
00:30:26.009 -->
00:30:32.316I think that was detected when the school caretaker went up on the roof at the end of term to clear footballs and bits and saw one of the switches was burnt out.
00:30:32.316 -->
00:30:47.309But when we tried to go into the data to see what had happened because it hadn't generated for a year the system was still sending a meter reading and the metering company.
00:30:47.309 -->
00:30:51.964They were happy they were receiving a meter reading, but there was no intelligent analysis in there to see that the meter reading wasn't actually changing over the course of the year.
00:30:52.526 -->
00:30:53.107Yeah, sure.
00:30:53.308 -->
00:30:54.131How interesting.
00:30:54.231 -->
00:31:12.692I hadn't thought of that and, like you say, I hadn't really thought about until today about all the data that must be there in terms of, like EON or somebody else, british Gas, you know, if you have got that type of meter and you are feeding solar into the grid or they're taking that off your electricity bill in effect, then they'll be monitoring that, obviously, and that's a very useful kind of area of data.
00:31:12.692 -->
00:31:19.876And obviously we're seeing now more and more solar panels in the uk because of the energy crisis and that kind of stuff and global warming.
00:31:19.876 -->
00:31:33.255But we're also seeing massive kind of systems on the top of supermarkets and big amazon places and all kind of storage facilities that are obviously generating their own electricity and trying to save electricity and costs and also save the planet.
00:31:33.255 -->
00:31:39.037So I think, do you see more and more solar panel fires coming in the future simply because there's more and more systems?
00:31:39.096 -->
00:31:39.357out there.
00:31:39.357 -->
00:31:40.968Yeah, absolutely it's.
00:31:40.968 -->
00:32:13.747Again as a fire investigator and this is kind of what led to our interest in the solar panel society, we were certainly seeing a rise of fires that involved PV, whether it was a fire that had started in the PV system or started elsewhere, or started in a bedroom in a property, but gone through the ceiling and then gone through the roof and then involved the PV on the roof, certainly adding a say, an extra element to the investigation and an extra area that needs to be considered and examined with all potential causes yeah, I just I imagine if you're an electrician they've been doing AC for 25 years you probably know your stuff.
00:32:14.368 -->
00:32:16.855Is there a qualification for electricians to install?
00:32:16.875 -->
00:32:29.144yeah, there are pv installers courses, the pv electrics and depending on the size of the scale whether you're installing domestic or commercial there are different separate electrical qualifications that are available.
00:32:29.144 -->
00:32:37.611So there's a lot of guidance in the mcs, which tends to is the industry regulations and the micro generation certification scheme.
00:32:37.611 -->
00:32:55.586I think it's mcs and they've got regulations on how pb systems should be installed, what type of equipment's been approved and, yeah, certainly people should be looking for most installs are provided with an mcs certificate and that's what home owners and people kind of should be looking for and fire investigators should be looking for if they haven't got it.
00:32:55.567 -->
00:32:56.387I guess absolutely same as gas brakes really.
00:32:56.387 -->
00:32:58.744If you've got a gas in store and it's the same kind of system as fire investigators should be looking for you if they haven't got it I guess Absolutely Same as gas brakes really.
00:32:58.744 -->
00:33:08.194If you've got a gas in store and it's the same kind of system those fire investigators need to obviously turn up and say is the guy competent to actually install the bit of kit that he's installed?
00:33:08.715 -->
00:33:16.432Yeah, We'll come back to this a little bit later with tips, but certainly something we've always done within Fire Investigations UK is where we're dealing with fires.
00:33:16.432 -->
00:33:20.028We Investigations UK is where we're dealing with fires.
00:33:20.028 -->
00:33:22.415We identify kind of industry skills and courses to update kind of professional development.
00:33:22.415 -->
00:33:44.319So I am a qualified PV installer that when we started doing the PV fires there were several of us from FRUK then went and did the installers course and we were on the roof we were fitting solar panels and we were connecting them and there's various aspects of fire investigation where we've identified kind of industry courses that directly benefit if you understand the systems and the processes that you're doing and how the installer should be installing them.
00:33:44.805 -->
00:33:46.633I'm a massive advocate for that kind of stuff.
00:33:46.633 -->
00:33:49.835I don't know about you, james, but I'm a very practical kind of person.
00:33:49.835 -->
00:33:56.257I learned through that practical way and I think most fire investigators are practical people simply because of the nature of the role.
00:33:56.257 -->
00:33:58.108But I think it's really important.
00:33:58.108 -->
00:34:02.979I've come across other experts who on the gas side I used to be a gas installer.
00:34:02.979 -->
00:34:06.214I was a heating and plumbing engineer when I first left school, before I joined the police.
00:34:06.214 -->
00:34:17.329But knowing how things are installed and knowing some of the pitfalls and some of the shortcuts and some of the things that you might well have done on site or you've seen other people do on site, I think is really, really useful.
00:34:17.329 -->
00:34:20.195So having that practical knowledge I think is fantastic.
00:34:20.195 -->
00:34:23.143All credit to you and the guys at ukfi.
00:34:23.143 -->
00:34:26.697So fantastic that you're keeping it up to date and you're doing that kind of stuff.
00:34:26.697 -->
00:34:28.224So brilliant, right?
00:34:28.224 -->
00:34:29.067Okay, fantastic.
00:34:29.067 -->
00:34:31.735Let's talk a little bit about ukfi.
00:34:32.498 -->
00:34:43.896You're obviously the past president, so tell us about that as I said right at the beginning, right from the day one of my career in FIA UK, I found the UKFI to be a really supportive and friendly association.
00:34:43.896 -->
00:34:45.485That's really helped me personally.
00:34:45.485 -->
00:34:58.768So, having been involved in FIA, then chose to stand and went for election onto the board and been again fortunate, I cast it as since 2009, kind of serving on the board and then running through the executive to running as president.
00:34:58.768 -->
00:35:09.596So it just kind of we get involved in the management and the running of the association, we organizing the conferences and speakers that we have and processes like that.
00:35:09.596 -->
00:35:13.394So that's how I feel like being able to kind of give back to the association.
00:35:13.394 -->
00:35:21.902That's helped me and going through the president doesn't see us as hopefully, I've left the chapter a little bit stronger and see it carrying on for years ahead yeah, definitely.
00:35:21.922 -->
00:35:24.371I mean, the year of your presidency was a very good one, I remember.
00:35:24.371 -->
00:35:25.838And what happens now?
00:35:25.838 -->
00:35:30.373You're obviously past president, so just drop off or you just go back to the board next year.
00:35:30.373 -->
00:35:30.894How does that work?
00:35:31.425 -->
00:35:31.867yeah, no.
00:35:31.867 -->
00:35:45.045So in terms of elected position we kind of drop off off the board to let new people come on, certainly as past president, and always be involved with the association and kind of be there to contribute and share my experience.
00:35:45.045 -->
00:35:50.858I'm still involved quite heavily with the association that I oversee some of the CPD.
00:35:50.858 -->
00:36:15.074So the UKFI has a CPD accreditation process where any third party or training provider if they're issuing fire investigation training, predominantly in the UK, they can come to the UKFI reassess it, have a look over it and just kind of say, yes, this is a valuable training source and we're happy to accredit it at an issue and a set number of CPD hours for that event.
00:36:15.074 -->
00:36:17.748So I'm still kind of involved on that side.
00:36:18.451 -->
00:36:25.733If there is a training provider out there and they want to get their course accredited, which obviously gives the course credibility if it's accredited by you guys.
00:36:25.733 -->
00:36:28.103So what's the process is just application form.
00:36:28.103 -->
00:36:28.565How does that?
00:36:28.704 -->
00:36:30.150work the application on the website.
00:36:30.150 -->
00:36:39.094There's a nominal administration charge for a corporate course but if it's there's no charge to to kind of members.
00:36:39.094 -->
00:36:46.268If it's kind of a toolbox talk or internal training that's provided by a fire service, then we would drop the administration charge for that.
00:36:46.268 -->
00:36:53.429And again, it's just a recognition that it is an accredited activity and is valuable for the number of hours that's assessed.
00:36:53.429 -->
00:36:59.394So the application guidance just concludes details of what's being taught, who's teaching it and outcomes like that.
00:37:00.306 -->
00:37:05.733Sure, and obviously our UK AFI accredited HCPD feeds into the International Association.
00:37:05.733 -->
00:37:09.219If you want to become a certified fire investigator, that's right, isn't it?
00:37:09.804 -->
00:37:10.568Absolutely so.
00:37:10.568 -->
00:37:26.750Again, everything that the UK AFI does, either as an internal training event, you see, kind of we have tested training and I think macaulay peter mancy kind of mentioned this as well those that are applying for fit fire investigation technician or certified fire investigator program.
00:37:26.750 -->
00:37:31.338The us the iii looks for tested training hours.
00:37:31.338 -->
00:37:36.501So as the uk association we would always recommend that all training is tested.
00:37:36.501 -->
00:37:44.076I think it's slightly different from the institution fire fire engineers in the UK which differentiates between formal and informal kind of training.
00:37:44.076 -->
00:37:55.617So all of our UKFI conferences they'd be followed up with a multiple choice and a quiz that's sent to all participants and you would have had those links to kind of participate on the test and do that.
00:37:55.617 -->
00:38:10.538It just means that those that take and challenge the test and do that it just means that we can issue those that take and challenge the test and past that we are able to issue a certificate that says they have completed tested training and it's that wording that differentiates the two to prove kind of the learning outcomes of Envenom.
00:38:11.045 -->
00:38:26.244Yeah, and I think it's useful across and again, I probably harp on a bit too much about this, but it's useful, I think stage your career in, because one if you're already a cfi, then you have to recertify every five years, I think, and if you're not a cfi, then it helps to get you your cfi in terms of your contested training.
00:38:26.244 -->
00:38:38.135And if you are interested in graduate level, like you were, and you haven't got any kind of practical forensic background, that's another thing that you can demonstrate that you've joined the ukFI or another organisation.
00:38:38.135 -->
00:38:42.405You've done some NAFI, for example, and you've done some testing and interview.
00:38:42.405 -->
00:38:43.505You can say what kind of shows.
00:38:43.505 -->
00:38:55.340To me, I'd much rather have someone who's got some specific and gone out of their way to do some individual courses and put themselves out, rather than someone who's got a PhD in, I don't know, fire engineering or something.
00:38:55.460 -->
00:38:55.842Absolutely.
00:38:55.842 -->
00:38:59.585Fire engineer also.
00:38:59.585 -->
00:38:59.806Absolutely.
00:38:59.806 -->
00:39:05.407I'm a huge advocate for the iii's fire investigation technician and cfi certification, as well as the evidence collection one, that they're all really useful certifications.
00:39:05.407 -->
00:39:07.873They are hard work, they do kind of.
00:39:07.873 -->
00:39:12.409You have to demonstrate your expertise and experience, the training that you've completed.
00:39:12.409 -->
00:39:20.871There's a requirement to job specific kind of experience of giving evidence in court as well, and then it has to be retested and re-challenged every way.
00:39:20.871 -->
00:39:23.985It's not just something that once you're issued, you keep for life.
00:39:23.985 -->
00:39:38.865You have to again go through the process it's every five years and it's a cfi and go through and show you continued learning I think the things as well that we've talked about today, the new lithium ion batteries and photovoltaic systems and that kind of stuff.
00:39:39.246 -->
00:39:45.047if you certified 10, 20 years ago and you hadn't had to recertify, then those things wouldn't have been tested.
00:39:45.047 -->
00:39:47.393I think it's really good, fantastic.
00:39:47.393 -->
00:39:48.597And what about the conference?
00:39:48.597 -->
00:39:50.329Is the conference coming up with the UKFI?
00:39:50.730 -->
00:39:57.452Yes, so we've got our two-day conference in January, the 27th and 28th of January.
00:39:57.452 -->
00:40:00.798We're at the Crowne Plaza Hotel in Liverpool.
00:40:00.798 -->
00:40:03.733There are details on the UKFI website.
00:40:03.733 -->
00:40:06.795The bookings are now open for January.
00:40:06.795 -->
00:40:11.545I think we're just putting the final circular to kind of go around and to be sent out to all members.
00:40:11.545 -->
00:40:17.375But bookings are open and running on the website and there's full details of the speaker schedule that's been lined up.
00:40:17.375 -->
00:40:18.376And again, another interesting round of conference.
00:40:18.376 -->
00:40:19.311Or another two-day of conference website and there's full details, the speaker schedule that's been lined up.
00:40:19.311 -->
00:40:21.092And again another interesting round of conference.
00:40:21.092 -->
00:40:22.335Or another t-dav conference.
00:40:23.159 -->
00:40:31.878Um, great speakers, interesting topics and and I think it's early bird special as well, yeah, yeah members rate for you fi members.
00:40:32.518 -->
00:40:36.496That can apply for that's until the 30th of november.
00:40:36.777 -->
00:40:43.693Um, it's the early bird rate yeah, and I checked this morning actually, because there's 145 tickets left on one of them at least.
00:40:43.693 -->
00:40:46.985So I need to sign up and sign up quick.
00:40:46.985 -->
00:40:49.914I've been a couple of times I've left it too late and I've actually met.
00:40:49.914 -->
00:40:51.967The places are the places and there's no.
00:40:51.967 -->
00:40:53.650Once you run out, you run out.
00:40:53.650 -->
00:40:59.534So I encourage people to sign up early, because there's been a couple of years where I haven't been able to go because I haven't signed up early enough.
00:41:00.125 -->
00:41:00.326No.
00:41:00.326 -->
00:41:12.376Again, as part of the board of directors and the executive we've been working hard to identify bigger venues and, again, the interesting speakers that there's no point putting conferences on that members don't want to attend.
00:41:12.376 -->
00:41:17.733So it is really important that we try and source and find speakers that members do want to hear about.
00:41:17.733 -->
00:41:21.719We always put out kind of feedback forms and we ask what do you want to hear about?
00:41:21.719 -->
00:41:27.523We get some people who actually offer presentations that would be really useful and we think could be of benefit to the association.
00:41:27.523 -->
00:41:41.632Others we get suggestions where members say it's not my area but I would really like to hear a presentation on this, and then that gives us the kind of to then start looking into that and sourcing credible speakers and and kind of delivering that.
00:41:41.632 -->
00:41:43.597But we do get quite a lot coming back.
00:41:43.659 -->
00:41:52.018Members have said they want to hear, and I think all the conferences I've been to, they're always quite diverse, in the sense of there's something there for everybody.
00:41:52.018 -->
00:42:04.572If it's a specific one, then it tends to be tailored, but there's always something that's a little bit side, that's of interest, you think.
00:42:04.612 -->
00:42:14.195Oh, I really thought about that aspect of fire, academic or research and innovation, as well as bringing in interesting case studies, that kind of.
00:42:14.195 -->
00:42:29.409Whenever we get together as groups of fire investigators, there's always stories that are being told and you learn from these conferences by just meeting with people and listening and talking to them and sharing experience and exactly helping others when they kind of say I'm not quite sure about this and or asking questions.
00:42:29.409 -->
00:42:32.775That I think kind of you need to ask questions if you're an fi.
00:42:32.775 -->
00:42:41.047If you don't quite understand something, you need to ask others and reach out to colleagues or friends or other industry experts to say I don't quite understand this, what's this?
00:42:41.568 -->
00:42:45.965yeah, I mean, we all know having an ego in fire investigation is a no-go really.
00:42:45.965 -->
00:42:47.547If you don't know something, say you don't know.
00:42:47.547 -->
00:42:57.871And I've always found and I'm sure you're the same as that people are willing to help you, people are willing always up to help you all this to point you in the right direction if they don't know themselves.
00:42:57.871 -->
00:42:59.916But yeah, it's a good community.
00:42:59.916 -->
00:43:01.148I think it's great community.
00:43:01.148 -->
00:43:07.047All right, we're sadly, james, we're running out of time, but let's just get to your sort of top tips.
00:43:07.047 -->
00:43:17.856If I was starting off at CSI as a fire investigator or as a CSI or a private sector, or just coming straight from university, any top tips you've learned over the years or any gadgets that you like, anything like that.
00:43:18.324 -->
00:43:19.768Yes, well, certainly on the top tips.
00:43:19.768 -->
00:43:29.228I think again what people have said it's reaching out, it's coming to conferences, it's going up and introducing yourself to people, as I say we welcome.
00:43:29.228 -->
00:43:39.253We have student members for the ukfi, so kind of, if you're interested in fi, looking for a career in that kind of look at our student membership packages and kind of see what options are available.
00:43:39.273 -->
00:43:46.396You were attending there's quite a few firms now taking on graduates as well yeah, see, yeah, absolutely, we're seeing more coming in.
00:43:46.697 -->
00:43:47.266We're seeing fire.
00:43:47.266 -->
00:43:54.358There are a number of fire services that have civilian fire investigators now or people that have transferred from CSI disciplines into FI.
00:43:54.358 -->
00:43:57.273There's a few of those in the UK, but again it's just getting out.
00:43:57.273 -->
00:44:00.289It's meeting people never kind of enough.
00:44:00.289 -->
00:44:09.505As you say, testing and taking things apart, I'm kind of one particularly that any fires involving a new type of appliance or something that I kind of haven't quite seen before.
00:44:09.505 -->
00:44:18.235I'm on the online auction sites kind of trying to see if I can get a cheap one to take apart as an example and get an understanding of what should be where and things like that.
00:44:18.235 -->
00:44:31.135I'd recommend any FI that one of the fundamentals is improving your knowledge of what things look like when they're burnt, and that sounds quite straightforward, but I think I'm still coming across things that you don't quite recognize.
00:44:31.135 -->
00:44:38.713When they've lost some of their mass, they've changed shape or say, certainly within our groups we kind of share images of oh, I've come across this.
00:44:38.713 -->
00:44:41.246It's a bit unusual, or I think an example.
00:44:41.306 -->
00:44:42.690I was on a PV fire.
00:44:42.690 -->
00:44:43.811I think it was last summer.
00:44:43.811 -->
00:44:58.280I was up in the loft and the extensive fire damage kind of structural collapse of the roof but was able to move safely around in some areas off, and I came across one area of kind of melted plastic that had loads of thin metal rods.
00:44:58.280 -->
00:45:12.452They almost looked like spokes of an umbrella, but they weren't connected to anything and I was trying to work out what these were, whether they were parts of a windscreen wipers from car, but there was just too many, there were hundreds in this area of the fire damage.
00:45:12.452 -->
00:45:16.606And so eventually, kind of speaking with the homeowner and said what did you have?
00:45:16.606 -->
00:45:33.594I know it hasn't caused the fire, but I can't recognize it in my directory of patterns and he said oh, we had four boxes of scale electrics tracks so we'd lost all the boxing, lost all the black tracking, and it was just the conductors from the middle of electrics and just the quantity they had there.
00:45:33.713 -->
00:45:45.512But so that was a new one on me yeah, I think we're lucky in the sense that we get paid to be nosy, we get paid to test things, we get paid to take things apart and play with things and understand different things.
00:45:45.512 -->
00:45:48.307One of the things I do is part of my csi training.
00:45:48.307 -->
00:45:56.771That I do for police is I give them a big carpooling full of just burnt stuff and they have to go through it and they have to identify and there's a shower pump in there.
00:45:56.771 -->
00:46:02.918The descriptions I've had and the things they think this shower pump might be, it's fascinating, it's really fascinating.
00:46:02.918 -->
00:46:05.012All right, james, thanks ever so much for your time.
00:46:05.012 -->
00:46:07.088Is there anything else that I always like to mop up?
00:46:07.088 -->
00:46:12.380Is there anything else we haven't covered today that you wanted to cover and say before we sort of close it down?
00:46:12.981 -->
00:46:28.972I'm happy to field any inquiries if I haven't quite answered anything that anyone's got a question about fire investigation, fires involving PV systems and again as well about the III CFI or FIT that I recently appointed as the Proctor for Europe for the CFI certification.
00:46:28.972 -->
00:46:35.695So if people are kind of going through the process, then that's like it's kind of come through me and I'll be kind of involved in the examination stage.
00:46:35.695 -->
00:46:55.217But certainly if anyone kind of wants to know a little bit more what's involved with CFI or kind of looking at it and kind of the examples that are listed in the literature tend to be a little bit American, if you're after some input of kind of how to fill it out as a non-American kind of, I'd be happy to help with that.
00:46:55.905 -->
00:46:58.389Sure, and I think at UKFI they offer.
00:46:58.389 -->
00:47:01.277Am I right in saying they offer a sponsorship?
00:47:01.277 -->
00:47:03.949Or you can apply to have one a year or something.
00:47:04.489 -->
00:47:11.753Yes, so the UKFI has got three bursaries or grants that are available to UKFI members.
00:47:11.753 -->
00:47:15.190They're not open to non-members it's one of the perks of being a member.
00:47:15.190 -->
00:47:18.815So one is CFI, fit find a support.
00:47:18.815 -->
00:47:28.293If it's not kind of recognised by their employer or their organisation that they work with they're really interested in going through the CFI, then they can apply.
00:47:28.293 -->
00:47:38.172And we've got a budget that not all applications will be approved but certainly kind of the person can apply for funding towards CFI or FIT certification through the UKFI.
00:47:38.172 -->
00:47:39.074Fantastic.
00:47:39.565 -->
00:47:42.695We've got another grant again that UKFI members should be aware of.
00:47:42.695 -->
00:47:57.936That I think for the last two years now the UKFI has sent a UKFI member to the ITC that happens in the States, so the UKFI will pay for the accommodation and the delegate fee for attending the conferences.
00:47:57.936 -->
00:48:03.032There's still some expense that's occurred on the individual kind of travel and any additional hotels and bits.
00:48:03.032 -->
00:48:10.094But certainly that's enough to find a support and try and get more people from the UK involved in the international that kind of level.
00:48:10.094 -->
00:48:13.175And again there's a research grant available.
00:48:13.175 -->
00:48:23.615So those that are involved in academic research, doing dissertations and bits like that, again if they're a UKFI member they can apply for some funding to assist with that research.
00:48:24.197 -->
00:48:24.739Fantastic.
00:48:25.304 -->
00:48:29.528All terms and conditions are kind of on the UKFI website and there's more information there.
00:48:30.309 -->
00:48:30.590Brilliant.
00:48:30.590 -->
00:48:35.414And if I was to go for CFI, would I be tested in the UK, James, or would I have to go to America?
00:48:35.914 -->
00:48:39.117No, we kind of administer tests either in the UK or the country where you are.
00:48:39.117 -->
00:48:53.512There's different modes of doing it that if you're in the UK you either come to me or I come to you, or outside of the kind of the UK it can be tested at our approved examination center.
00:48:53.512 -->
00:49:04.130So certain colleges and universities will hold an open exam session that's properly invigilated and signed off as being a proper exam, but the candidates in that hall will be sitting a whole variety of different professional exams all at the same time.
00:49:04.170 -->
00:49:08.927But we can make those arrangements as well all right, brilliant, okay, james, thanks ever so much.
00:49:08.927 -->
00:49:10.291Is there anything else just before we go?
00:49:10.692 -->
00:49:12.175no, just been really enjoying.
00:49:12.175 -->
00:49:22.315Really enjoyed listening to the podcast series, normally in the car on the way to and from fire scenes you'll be able to listen to your own now yeah all right, james, thanks so so much.
00:49:22.336 -->
00:49:35.748I really appreciate the time and again thanks for your input and hopefully we'll have on again and we might start doing a more technical series where we get really in depth onto some of the more technical bits and pieces and less conversational, less two mates chatting and more sort of technical.
00:49:35.748 -->
00:49:36.873But we'll see how that develops.
00:49:36.873 -->
00:49:38.501But again, thanks ever so much, james.
00:49:38.501 -->
00:49:41.146Thank you so much.
00:49:41.146 -->
00:49:44.210Hey, thank you for listening to csi on fire.
00:49:44.210 -->
00:49:49.498Please don't forget to like, subscribe and suggest future topics on our webpage.
00:49:49.498 -->
00:49:52.380Remember factor non-verbal.
00:49:52.380 -->
00:49:54.809Take care, good hunting.
00:49:54.809 -->
00:49:57.197I hope to see you on the next one, cheers.
