#200 The Knowledge Gap Book Study Finale and Our Thoughts

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Pm 0CI
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have a question
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for you today?
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Okay. And my question is
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quite simply,
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do you believe that within
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your
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lifetime?
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We are gonna see an
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overhaul
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of the public education
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school system on a on a national scale.
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So something equivalent to
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common core or bigger. Do you think that's
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gonna happen? Why?
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Oh, why not
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Overhaul, I think I think it's gonna be
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attempted.
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But I I think it's I think we've
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tried to overhaul it lots of times.
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And, but right now, I think we're in
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the process. I think... I think I think
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doing the
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the science of reading is a huge overhaul.
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I mean, that's been accepted in all 50
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states.
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So I see it at the elementary level.
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They're forcing
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forcing, I guess, are,
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all of our teachers are having at least
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in Texas for sure. They're all having to
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take all of at least a hundred and
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50
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hours, I think, I'm not sure exactly how
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much people were honest, so I'm... I haven't
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looked into it. But I do know that
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they're having to take tests and everything would
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be certified.
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In the science of reading, especially in the
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elementary levels. So I think they're already
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in the process of overhaul. And and I
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think the biggest overhaul that we've had was
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Covid. I think I think we've already had
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it. And I think Covid when everything went
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online and all that stuff, I think it
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completely changed
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education. And I think right now, we're still
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trying to pick up the pieces and nobody
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knows what direction to go. Because there's so
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many variables out there. It's kinda difficult to
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know what to do.
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And,
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at least for the people who are in
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charge, does that make sense?
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Yeah. I mean, it's a... It's I mean,
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when you're looking at... You know, when I
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when I taught,
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I still do. I mean, I'm still an
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Abe trainer, and but I'm not doing as
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much.
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But
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But way back, when I say way back,
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talked about 19 93 94,
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but we were talking about a paradigm shifts
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back then.
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And we had not in in 92 93,
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we hadn't had
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max in the in the
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in the public schools. I mean,
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computers Yes. They're only in specialized
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areas
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like in, you know, like in cat or,
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you know, like, they're doing something like that.
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But, really, I don't think we we didn't
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have computers in the classroom. We were just
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now getting them and they were only teacher
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units. And we were figuring out how to
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just do
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grades.
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You know, I mean, nobody...
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I mean, we knew it had a potential,
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but nobody knew how to do it. So
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so to me, that was a huge overhaul.
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When we created technology. I think that's your
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number 1
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cause, if you will for it for a
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huge change.
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But when we did that, but when when...
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We were talking about paradigm shifts,
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the history, of
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education has always been to prepare the worker
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and to make them citizens so they can
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be productive citizens to work in the factories
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or to work on farms.
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An our whole entire
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system of how we organize our school has
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been on the Agrarian
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schedule. I mean, it's you know, I mean,
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the farmer kids had to go home and
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and harvest. I mean, they had to go
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home and do the planting. They had to...
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So there were... It was all set up
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around
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the kids having to go back and and
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work on the farms or the ranches.
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And so we're still... You know, we've experimented
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with
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we've experimented with
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all around school. We'd experimented with those types
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of things, but none of them have completely
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caught on because we still have a huge
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rural
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areas that require people to to have that
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summer off so they can work in the
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fields and and do the things they need
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to do for harvest, etcetera.
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So
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so when you're looking at,
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an overhaul or reform and all of that.
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I think I think this last time when
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you and I got started on this and
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it was Covid.
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I just don't think there was a bigger
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overhaul than that. And it would... It happened
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because of circumstances.
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Just like the computer, once the computers came
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in, it... We all... It changed. Who's a
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huge... Is a huge change from when I
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first started teaching the first 5 years of,
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6, 07:10 years of teaching to my last
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20 years of teaching.
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And then in the last 4
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or actually 6 because, well, I guess 4
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Right? Because of Covid,
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So you're looking at those changes. Those were
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the biggest probably most difficult changes
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that that I experienced
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So do I think it's gonna change in
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the future yeah I do. And I think
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it's gonna be technology, Ai, All of that
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stuff is gonna cause it to change.
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Ray Brad might not be wrong about the
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future of education. I mean, we were talking
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at in our book that we're gonna be
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doing.
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Or that we're talking about today, There's 1
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part where she talks about testing.
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And how it's too difficult. It's easier to
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grade
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multiple choice test and that you need actual
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people to grade the essays. Well, the you
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and I both discovered in the last
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time we really looked closer at the book
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and it was done before. She wrote this
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before Covid. But right now,
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we already have. They're talking about not hiring
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graders
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this year, and they're all gonna, grade the
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essays, and it's gonna be Ai. That's grading
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the essays. Am I correct?
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Or am I wrong? I mean, so We've
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already... That's already another transformation. I think the
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problem right now is and this is... Already
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did that by the way.
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That's what Thought. It was this last year.
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Right? And it... Yeah. It people are...
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I believe. I don't if there's a lawsuit
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yet, but there's definitely
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complaints
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from
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superintendents and whatnot that are upset because they
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feel like it was an unjust grading of
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a lot of
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kids stuff. So it it made scores
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artificially lower
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than what they would have been, which is
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interesting.
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Well, and so if you're gonna great like
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that then, I guess, maybe we gotta go
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back to the
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worksheets because that's
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so, yeah, I don't really know.
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I've just
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I don't wanna do that. I just group
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that, you know that. Right. I... But, yeah.
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I mean, I I think I think what's
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gonna
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I don't know. I mean,
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it's hard to know where it's going, but
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the but if you could figure out where
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it's going, and you
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are on that front line,
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then that'll be a great thing for whoever
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is gonna be doing it next.
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But in my lifetime,
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of teaching 36 years, I saw some huge
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changes,
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and a lot of bad adaptation all the
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way to the very end.
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And if I go back, I'll probably be
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lost
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just in a year.
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So
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that's kinda where I'm at with it. I
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don't know. Did I answer your question?
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Don't know how to do it though. I...
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Before I intro, I wanna add, you know,
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I've... I can say this now in the
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podcast because I've put it publicly, but I'll
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be in AAA new district.
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Mh
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this coming year. I actually
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congratulations.
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My first day is Monday.
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Oh, you're starting. Monday. Your summer over? Yeah.
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My summer... That was short lived. Yeah. Really
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Was just hanging up for this. I just
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ask you, like, 2... My last
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what are you doing for summer vacation You're
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like, I just got off. Now you're saying
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I'm going to work on Monday? Yeah.
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Oh late. So...
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It's because this
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work. My contracts more days, so I go
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back earlier is part of the thing. If
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I was still where I was, I would
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have 1 more week.
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So it's not too much of a difference,
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but, you know,
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it is what it is. We... I'm very
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excited to be going to... I know there's
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a lot of Texas people listening. I'll be
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in northwest Is
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leaving Ke I the.
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And
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very excited. The team seems super great already.
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Principal is really great for those of y'all
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all who are are familiar with Ta,
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and all of that. She was...
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She's on the the board of tab ass
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I believe, and
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she's she's just a well known respected principal
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here in Texas and has done a lot
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of work with people that I respect, like,
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you know, Todd and, Todd Whitaker all them.
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So,
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very cool.
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My whole point of saying that was to
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say, I'm excited to see
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yet, another district and how they're
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functioning through this because I'll still be at
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a high school level.
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The Northwest kind of in this area has
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always been known for their
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focus on academics and their focus on teacher
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professional development and their focus on that. In
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protocols and stuff. So genuinely, I'm excited to
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see
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how a district that is kind of so
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well known and respected throughout the area is
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handling
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a lot of what we're talking about. So
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hopefully, I'll be able to bring more perspective.
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So
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so when you said task is task like,
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Texas Association of Superintendents of principles?
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Secondary principles.
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Secondary prince close. I didn't know. I didn't
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know. That's why I thought, well, If I
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don't know completely. Yeah. I thought maybe we
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might tell our other people. So
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secondary
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principles. Texas association of secondary principles. And they
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do, a summer thing every year. I didn't
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get to go this year.
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Couldn't afford it on my own and
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Keller did not pay for anyone to go.
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So
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we...
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I didn't have the opportunity to go this
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year, but I went to your report, and
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it was awesome.
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Mostly, I mean, for me, I just love
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all the you know, you run into people
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that you know or don't know and you
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00:09:53,644 --> 00:09:56,045
people love network and, you know, it's just
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that conference wide. But I really do love
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it. And then all the shenanigans we get
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to at night, but that's a different podcast
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for different
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00:10:01,809 --> 00:10:04,282
conversation. In any case so show, this is
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crafted and draft. That's bam all John Jacob
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Jesse and we're 2 educators down here this
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of Texas doing what we love to talking
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about reading writing workshop in so much more.
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If you're just now listening to the podcast.
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So this is the first episode. First of
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all, welcome. Second of all, Oc joe, do
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you know what today is? Do you know
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what today's podcast is?
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Well, I I know that today is
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Friday.
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But do you know what
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the meets this podcast
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special? Well, now it kip, like, for near
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200 or something I have no idea. Not
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only are we at the end of our
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summer books study?
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Oh, at the end of our summer book
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study. Okay? But it is episode 200.
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Could we... We
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we were close.
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I knew we were close. I just didn't...
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But, what are the odds that we close
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out as awesome.
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Study with Episode 200. So a big whopping
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in 200
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of craft and draft. So if it's your
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first episode second episode or 200
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00:11:00,926 --> 00:11:01,963
episode, ladies and gentlemen,
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we do that Thank you. Every week. Yeah.
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00:11:05,795 --> 00:11:07,243
Thank you. Thank you for listening.
323
00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:09,708
Well, you know, it all started with you
324
00:11:09,708 --> 00:11:11,379
just driving to my home home Dear Covid
325
00:11:11,379 --> 00:11:13,606
and said here's the microphone plug in. We're
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00:11:13,606 --> 00:11:14,322
starting Saturday.
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Pretty much how. I'll started. I was like,
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00:11:17,122 --> 00:11:20,566
oh, okay. So, 200. Have these,
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And I was like, you know what? I
330
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think they're... I think it's worth to to
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00:11:25,016 --> 00:11:26,846
record these for people. And luckily, we found
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00:11:26,846 --> 00:11:29,075
a nice little niche audience and who loves
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to to listen in and pop in and
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have these conversations and
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and through this center we found a a
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few more of you guys. Yeah.
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Podcasts have been doing well. Numbers have been
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doing well. The patreon has been doing well.
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So we think you y'all for all of
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your support y'all, listening coming over here. We
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00:11:44,083 --> 00:11:45,354
try to give y'all all as much credit
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as possible because 1 thing that we
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00:11:47,815 --> 00:11:49,164
talk about on this show all the time
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is we wanted it to really be a
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show where you can just, you know, safely
346
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listen to deep
347
00:11:55,460 --> 00:11:57,687
conversations about a variety of topics around literacy
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and
349
00:11:58,976 --> 00:12:00,729
you know, just like what I do with
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teach me teacher, I think not a lot
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00:12:02,243 --> 00:12:03,996
of podcasts do at Craft draft does in
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the educational space. So
353
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excited to be a part of this. Excited
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00:12:07,917 --> 00:12:09,991
to have so many hours and hours of
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00:12:09,991 --> 00:12:13,022
our conversations on the Internet Show But, more
356
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importantly, for people if you're just now listening,
357
00:12:15,668 --> 00:12:18,134
go back and start at the beginning of
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the knowledge got book study. We talk we
359
00:12:19,884 --> 00:12:23,003
cover so many topics, so many rants between
360
00:12:23,003 --> 00:12:25,315
me and Oc coachella literally, every episode about
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00:12:25,315 --> 00:12:27,308
an hour and 45 that may be confusing
362
00:12:27,308 --> 00:12:28,903
if you're just looking at the time stamps.
363
00:12:29,620 --> 00:12:31,788
On your podcast set. That's because because it's
364
00:12:31,788 --> 00:12:33,543
a book study because we're doing something different.
365
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We've kept the majority of the content with
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00:12:35,935 --> 00:12:38,567
our Patreon supporters because they support, so we
367
00:12:38,567 --> 00:12:39,763
always try to do something special for them
368
00:12:39,763 --> 00:12:40,641
every few months or so.
369
00:12:41,535 --> 00:12:43,215
So they're getting the vast Majority. You have
370
00:12:43,215 --> 00:12:44,654
access that you could support us at the
371
00:12:44,654 --> 00:12:45,855
listener or listener plus here,
372
00:12:46,815 --> 00:12:48,254
and you can get access to all of
373
00:12:48,254 --> 00:12:50,014
these conversations plus training videos.
374
00:12:50,587 --> 00:12:52,014
About our crap and draft journal system.
375
00:12:52,806 --> 00:12:54,629
Some of the Pd that we've done. We've
376
00:12:54,629 --> 00:12:56,610
done a lot of videos out there that
377
00:12:56,610 --> 00:12:57,269
are only
378
00:12:57,894 --> 00:12:59,485
for our patreon support. You get access to
379
00:12:59,485 --> 00:13:01,894
all of that. And so much more just
380
00:13:02,269 --> 00:13:02,667
like.
381
00:13:03,303 --> 00:13:06,667
Leah Rebecca Court alyssa Susan Lori Test, Tracy
382
00:13:06,667 --> 00:13:07,866
and Jenny All.
383
00:13:08,665 --> 00:13:11,222
Do go over there, join them, Join us
384
00:13:11,222 --> 00:13:11,962
in this
385
00:13:12,421 --> 00:13:13,514
conversation. We would love
386
00:13:14,591 --> 00:13:16,822
to interact with you and to go over
387
00:13:16,822 --> 00:13:18,337
some things. But with all of that, Gentlemen,
388
00:13:18,496 --> 00:13:20,648
let's get to the final chunk.
389
00:13:23,056 --> 00:13:24,971
Of the knowledge got book city. Good lord,
390
00:13:25,130 --> 00:13:26,567
my chair is cri. Do you hear that,
391
00:13:26,806 --> 00:13:28,481
Apologies if that's coming... I don't hear it.
392
00:13:28,641 --> 00:13:31,043
Maybe they months. This mike does a really
393
00:13:31,043 --> 00:13:32,474
good job at not picking out much things.
394
00:13:32,712 --> 00:13:34,620
It just picks up my child screaming, which
395
00:13:34,620 --> 00:13:36,073
he's not here right now. So
396
00:13:37,084 --> 00:13:38,299
that's a good thing. But
397
00:13:39,250 --> 00:13:39,750
this
398
00:13:40,690 --> 00:13:43,730
book. Of, joe. We... I mean, every... So
399
00:13:43,809 --> 00:13:45,330
I wanna read a couple things before we
400
00:13:45,330 --> 00:13:46,825
jump into this because
401
00:13:48,133 --> 00:13:49,109
we did have
402
00:13:49,799 --> 00:13:50,616
2 comments
403
00:13:51,624 --> 00:13:53,369
from a listener. So the first 1 was
404
00:13:53,369 --> 00:13:53,869
on
405
00:13:54,258 --> 00:13:56,650
Episode 1 98. So this is 3 episodes
406
00:13:56,650 --> 00:13:58,403
ago at this point. Is chapter 7 through
407
00:13:58,403 --> 00:14:00,795
8. This was test 1 of our newest
408
00:14:00,795 --> 00:14:01,910
supporters. She said Pam,
409
00:14:02,644 --> 00:14:04,480
Loved your thoughts towards the end of this
410
00:14:04,480 --> 00:14:06,555
podcast. It is so true we need to
411
00:14:06,555 --> 00:14:08,891
be able to have the material and technology
412
00:14:09,110 --> 00:14:10,786
access, but it can be difficult to get
413
00:14:10,786 --> 00:14:12,557
what we need. Also when it comes to
414
00:14:12,557 --> 00:14:14,152
standards and trying to put certain books and
415
00:14:14,152 --> 00:14:16,784
standards, could be a difficult task when certain
416
00:14:16,784 --> 00:14:17,842
states, ban
417
00:14:18,299 --> 00:14:19,358
books, Hallelujah
418
00:14:19,974 --> 00:14:21,112
test you are
419
00:14:22,694 --> 00:14:25,627
you you're verifying what About technology and how
420
00:14:25,627 --> 00:14:27,926
that affects a lot and how it's 1
421
00:14:27,926 --> 00:14:30,565
thing to say, hey, we're we're we're foresee
422
00:14:30,565 --> 00:14:32,798
or we're not forcing where. Sometimes is forcing.
423
00:14:32,958 --> 00:14:34,016
We're using technology
424
00:14:35,191 --> 00:14:36,865
to support learning and then they say, but
425
00:14:36,865 --> 00:14:38,754
you can't use technology in the way that
426
00:14:39,112 --> 00:14:41,178
everyone uses technology. You can only use technology
427
00:14:41,178 --> 00:14:42,949
in a very strange way
428
00:14:43,561 --> 00:14:45,491
that is a very limited. But
429
00:14:46,198 --> 00:14:48,107
Tests also jumped in. She said, I am
430
00:14:48,107 --> 00:14:50,278
so glad that I stumbled across your podcast
431
00:14:50,414 --> 00:14:52,164
and got this book to follow along with
432
00:14:52,164 --> 00:14:54,073
you both. It has been interesting to see
433
00:14:54,073 --> 00:14:54,551
your views.
434
00:14:55,123 --> 00:14:57,191
And my own on the topic can't wait
435
00:14:57,191 --> 00:14:58,702
to see what you have to say about
436
00:14:58,702 --> 00:15:00,236
chapter 11 specifically.
437
00:15:01,899 --> 00:15:03,893
When it comes to writing. So not only...
438
00:15:04,212 --> 00:15:06,387
I'm glad she's aware that you
439
00:15:07,004 --> 00:15:08,440
you and I would have a lot to
440
00:15:08,440 --> 00:15:10,114
say about the writing chapter. We're going to
441
00:15:10,114 --> 00:15:12,202
the vast majority of this podcast honestly,
442
00:15:12,679 --> 00:15:13,974
is gonna be about the writing
443
00:15:14,349 --> 00:15:14,826
chapter.
444
00:15:16,735 --> 00:15:18,722
And I'll I'll just come out and just
445
00:15:18,722 --> 00:15:20,233
say kind of up front upfront show because
446
00:15:20,233 --> 00:15:21,188
we're were seeing this off here.
447
00:15:21,919 --> 00:15:23,358
That the last chapter, not the epi log,
448
00:15:23,518 --> 00:15:25,116
but the last chapter where it's, like, can
449
00:15:25,116 --> 00:15:26,155
all of this be scalable?
450
00:15:26,954 --> 00:15:29,831
To me, it is the most pointless chapter
451
00:15:29,831 --> 00:15:30,790
of the entire book?
452
00:15:32,803 --> 00:15:34,880
It it doesn't add a lot. Like, I
453
00:15:34,880 --> 00:15:37,197
mean, there's information in there that's interesting and
454
00:15:37,197 --> 00:15:38,635
we'll head on it at when we get
455
00:15:38,635 --> 00:15:38,955
to that.
456
00:15:39,845 --> 00:15:41,515
But the vast majority of this conversation will
457
00:15:41,515 --> 00:15:43,265
be about Chapter 11, which is writing and
458
00:15:43,265 --> 00:15:44,776
then a little bit of the epi where
459
00:15:44,776 --> 00:15:46,866
she talks about some of the quote unquote
460
00:15:46,923 --> 00:15:48,831
solution. She just puts in there a little
461
00:15:48,831 --> 00:15:50,753
foot note at the end of a whole
462
00:15:50,753 --> 00:15:52,343
book. That's a different. That's a... That, I'm
463
00:15:52,343 --> 00:15:54,591
gonna save my critique of that
464
00:15:55,124 --> 00:15:56,498
when we get there, but
465
00:15:57,444 --> 00:15:59,274
Yeah. So chapter 12, if you're... If you're
466
00:15:59,274 --> 00:16:00,547
looking for us to do a deep dive
467
00:16:00,547 --> 00:16:02,535
on chapter 12, we probably... I will definitely
468
00:16:02,535 --> 00:16:03,808
hit on some of the things in there
469
00:16:03,808 --> 00:16:05,002
because we would do a full book study.
470
00:16:05,973 --> 00:16:06,451
But we're...
471
00:16:07,568 --> 00:16:09,721
It's it to me, it's the weakest chapter.
472
00:16:10,200 --> 00:16:11,715
It left me feeling the most of defeated.
473
00:16:11,875 --> 00:16:13,869
And honestly, that's probably why she added an
474
00:16:13,869 --> 00:16:16,034
epi log just from a writer perspective,
475
00:16:16,670 --> 00:16:18,178
if she felt like that was kind of
476
00:16:18,178 --> 00:16:19,711
a weak to end
477
00:16:20,243 --> 00:16:22,228
because quite frankly, I think a lot of
478
00:16:22,228 --> 00:16:23,658
what she was digging into. I think some
479
00:16:23,658 --> 00:16:24,745
of it dies on the.
480
00:16:25,182 --> 00:16:26,215
I don't think all of it does,
481
00:16:27,407 --> 00:16:28,519
but I think some of it does. So,
482
00:16:28,837 --> 00:16:29,972
anyway, writing,
483
00:16:30,664 --> 00:16:33,943
we're finally here the chapter that has been
484
00:16:33,943 --> 00:16:35,218
staring at you in the face.
485
00:16:37,210 --> 00:16:39,282
Oh, joe. I'm gonna let you start wherever
486
00:16:39,282 --> 00:16:40,732
you wanna start with 1. You can start
487
00:16:40,732 --> 00:16:42,487
at the beginning, You can summarize her points.
488
00:16:42,726 --> 00:16:43,306
You can
489
00:16:44,561 --> 00:16:46,874
steal man her arguments, whatever you wanna do,
490
00:16:47,113 --> 00:16:48,490
where do you wanna start with
491
00:16:48,868 --> 00:16:49,665
chapter 11.
492
00:16:52,067 --> 00:16:52,863
Well, I think,
493
00:16:53,817 --> 00:16:56,521
we said it earlier that she does not
494
00:16:56,521 --> 00:16:58,294
like Lucy Hawkins. I see
495
00:16:58,763 --> 00:17:00,353
that in this particular chapter,
496
00:17:00,830 --> 00:17:01,307
she... It's...
497
00:17:02,659 --> 00:17:06,020
She does not like Lucy Hawkins. And
498
00:17:06,474 --> 00:17:07,667
which, you know,
499
00:17:08,399 --> 00:17:10,473
you and I both love Donald Graves and
500
00:17:10,633 --> 00:17:12,788
Lucy Hawkins was under Donald Graves.
501
00:17:13,506 --> 00:17:15,900
And so it's almost like, what?
502
00:17:16,554 --> 00:17:18,709
You don't like Donald Gray. I mean, conceptually
503
00:17:18,709 --> 00:17:19,666
really what she's saying.
504
00:17:20,225 --> 00:17:20,704
And
505
00:17:21,262 --> 00:17:23,497
so... Which is we by the way, not
506
00:17:23,497 --> 00:17:25,900
to cut you off, but. She doesn't mention
507
00:17:25,900 --> 00:17:26,376
him at all.
508
00:17:27,250 --> 00:17:28,838
She didn't mention him at all. She doesn't
509
00:17:28,838 --> 00:17:30,982
even bring him out. She she She did
510
00:17:30,982 --> 00:17:33,443
want... I think she does No. She didn't
511
00:17:33,443 --> 00:17:36,092
did she. She uses Lucy Hawkins as the
512
00:17:36,092 --> 00:17:38,330
the 1 pillar of workshop,
513
00:17:39,209 --> 00:17:42,246
and I just... I don't... Surely she came
514
00:17:42,246 --> 00:17:43,365
across these other names.
515
00:17:44,413 --> 00:17:45,523
But she only focuses on,
516
00:17:46,316 --> 00:17:48,537
call ins, which I have my theories about
517
00:17:48,537 --> 00:17:49,329
but keep going and keep going.
518
00:17:50,122 --> 00:17:53,338
Yeah. It's so anyway, So she is definitely...
519
00:17:55,863 --> 00:17:57,773
Yeah know, I was hopeful because she said
520
00:17:57,773 --> 00:17:59,127
don't forget about the writing.
521
00:17:59,778 --> 00:18:01,606
Right? And that what she said, you must...
522
00:18:02,798 --> 00:18:04,944
I mean, her whole thing, Yeah. Don't forget
523
00:18:04,944 --> 00:18:05,501
to write.
524
00:18:06,057 --> 00:18:06,557
And
525
00:18:07,581 --> 00:18:09,429
the fact that she only spends
526
00:18:10,515 --> 00:18:12,815
chapter 11 on don't forget to write. Lets
527
00:18:12,815 --> 00:18:14,798
me know that she's already forgotten.
528
00:18:15,529 --> 00:18:16,890
All about what we need to do for
529
00:18:16,890 --> 00:18:18,809
writing. So that needs to be a whole
530
00:18:18,809 --> 00:18:20,890
another book all by itself quite frankly. You
531
00:18:20,890 --> 00:18:23,450
know what it reminds me of? Mh. It
532
00:18:23,450 --> 00:18:24,590
reminds me of
533
00:18:25,943 --> 00:18:27,481
she wrote a whole book
534
00:18:27,860 --> 00:18:29,718
surrounded by something and some
535
00:18:30,177 --> 00:18:31,695
intuitive educator somewhere,
536
00:18:32,665 --> 00:18:34,335
probably pointed out that she didn't talk about
537
00:18:34,335 --> 00:18:35,924
the relationship between reading and writing.
538
00:18:37,117 --> 00:18:38,707
Well, it's says she's started again. Yeah. It's
539
00:18:38,707 --> 00:18:39,502
I an afterthought her thought.
540
00:18:40,234 --> 00:18:42,311
Because in her in the very end of
541
00:18:42,311 --> 00:18:43,850
the book in, like, her
542
00:18:44,308 --> 00:18:46,385
notes or whatever, when she's was like, thanking
543
00:18:46,385 --> 00:18:46,625
people.
544
00:18:47,515 --> 00:18:49,581
She specifically talks about. She says, in the
545
00:18:49,581 --> 00:18:51,885
first sentence is 5 years ago, I didn't
546
00:18:51,885 --> 00:18:53,235
know anything about this topic.
547
00:18:54,283 --> 00:18:57,306
So you're... She's she's researching. She's doing... She's
548
00:18:57,306 --> 00:18:59,056
doing research and writing a book. I get
549
00:18:59,056 --> 00:19:01,697
that. I understand how that process works. But
550
00:19:01,697 --> 00:19:04,085
to me, when you have 1 chapter dedicated
551
00:19:04,085 --> 00:19:05,996
to writing and a book about literacy and
552
00:19:05,996 --> 00:19:08,226
how to move kids forward. And you have
553
00:19:08,226 --> 00:19:09,102
quotes that say,
554
00:19:09,753 --> 00:19:11,664
if you want kids to read better, have
555
00:19:11,664 --> 00:19:12,938
them write more.
556
00:19:14,451 --> 00:19:15,406
Right. It's...
557
00:19:16,441 --> 00:19:17,498
The profound
558
00:19:17,969 --> 00:19:20,601
of the correct thing she says in the
559
00:19:20,601 --> 00:19:21,500
writing chapter
560
00:19:22,435 --> 00:19:22,834
doesn't...
561
00:19:24,589 --> 00:19:26,982
It's not supported by the volume in which
562
00:19:26,982 --> 00:19:27,954
that she writes about. It.
563
00:19:29,073 --> 00:19:30,911
No. I mean, she she... And and and,
564
00:19:30,991 --> 00:19:31,391
you know,
565
00:19:33,708 --> 00:19:34,028
well,
566
00:19:34,667 --> 00:19:36,605
it's obvious. I mean, we have
567
00:19:37,236 --> 00:19:38,986
workshop in our title of everything that we
568
00:19:38,986 --> 00:19:41,132
do. So we're definitely workshop people, So you
569
00:19:41,132 --> 00:19:43,279
need to know that I'm already biased on
570
00:19:43,279 --> 00:19:45,107
the workshop side of block. That's fair. I
571
00:19:45,107 --> 00:19:47,749
mean, Need to do our regular listeners know
572
00:19:47,749 --> 00:19:49,183
that we try to we try to come
573
00:19:49,183 --> 00:19:50,697
into every argument like that. But for people
574
00:19:50,697 --> 00:19:52,689
that are new or listening, but we are
575
00:19:52,689 --> 00:19:53,779
coming at this from
576
00:19:54,216 --> 00:19:55,644
workshop centered to people for sure.
577
00:19:56,358 --> 00:19:58,420
Yeah. So anyway, when I when I looked
578
00:19:58,420 --> 00:19:59,848
at it, you know, Judith Hartman,
579
00:20:01,134 --> 00:20:02,971
she she first mentions her. And so let's
580
00:20:02,971 --> 00:20:04,889
just kinda talk about that. So New Jersey.
581
00:20:05,288 --> 00:20:07,445
Always found... I found that part interesting because
582
00:20:07,445 --> 00:20:07,765
actually,
583
00:20:08,659 --> 00:20:11,956
I am an Ava trainer, but actually,
584
00:20:12,974 --> 00:20:16,111
my... The original Ava name was
585
00:20:17,144 --> 00:20:20,916
the New Jersey riding project in Texas.
586
00:20:21,933 --> 00:20:24,248
So that caught my attention and at first,
587
00:20:24,407 --> 00:20:26,579
I thought, oh, okay. Because I didn't really
588
00:20:26,579 --> 00:20:28,740
know Judith hartman that well. I might have,
589
00:20:29,700 --> 00:20:31,140
I now do. But at the time, I
590
00:20:31,140 --> 00:20:32,420
didn't know her name as well as I
591
00:20:32,420 --> 00:20:35,153
know Lucy and Donald Graves and Nancy out
592
00:20:35,153 --> 00:20:36,992
well and all of that. And and Hog
593
00:20:36,992 --> 00:20:38,830
was not to be in the seventies,
594
00:20:39,389 --> 00:20:40,209
Judith Hoffman
595
00:20:40,748 --> 00:20:42,746
work was not 1 that we studied. Well,
596
00:20:42,825 --> 00:20:44,679
now I why we didn't study because it
597
00:20:44,679 --> 00:20:47,555
was not writing workshop. So she's not a
598
00:20:47,555 --> 00:20:48,674
writing workshop person.
599
00:20:49,153 --> 00:20:51,711
So... But it caught my attention. So I
600
00:20:51,711 --> 00:20:54,700
started researching because New Jersey, that's where
601
00:20:56,832 --> 00:21:00,181
you know, that's that's where my particular study
602
00:21:00,181 --> 00:21:02,230
or my learning or my training actually
603
00:21:02,667 --> 00:21:04,759
originates from Rutgers University.
604
00:21:05,612 --> 00:21:07,761
And the reason it does is because Janet
605
00:21:07,920 --> 00:21:09,990
Emi, it was a professor there, and I
606
00:21:10,069 --> 00:21:11,263
I shared this with you earlier, but I'll
607
00:21:11,263 --> 00:21:12,633
just share. And I'm out shared it with
608
00:21:12,633 --> 00:21:15,426
people before. But and and I think in
609
00:21:15,426 --> 00:21:16,384
19 69,
610
00:21:16,783 --> 00:21:17,342
she wrote,
611
00:21:17,980 --> 00:21:19,198
the the
612
00:21:20,628 --> 00:21:23,260
k writing process for kids k through 12,
613
00:21:23,420 --> 00:21:25,095
but I'm probably... I don't have that in
614
00:21:25,095 --> 00:21:26,132
front of me, and I haven't said that
615
00:21:26,132 --> 00:21:27,966
in a long time. But she wrote the
616
00:21:27,966 --> 00:21:30,061
composing process is the composing process
617
00:21:30,533 --> 00:21:33,743
And she did 19 69, and it went
618
00:21:34,838 --> 00:21:36,512
in today's world, it would have been viral.
619
00:21:36,830 --> 00:21:38,758
Does that make sense? So it was it
620
00:21:38,758 --> 00:21:40,586
was a very popular thing. She talked about
621
00:21:40,586 --> 00:21:43,130
the writing process. She talked about the 2
622
00:21:43,130 --> 00:21:45,197
modes of writing that we ride in. And
623
00:21:45,197 --> 00:21:47,520
the mere fact that that if you actually
624
00:21:47,520 --> 00:21:49,912
study kids k through 12, that you can
625
00:21:49,912 --> 00:21:51,826
see that there's a process that kids go
626
00:21:51,826 --> 00:21:53,500
through as they learn to write, So she
627
00:21:53,500 --> 00:21:55,988
actually wrote about that process, and that we
628
00:21:55,988 --> 00:21:57,664
have to start with what they know first.
629
00:21:58,143 --> 00:21:59,580
So that was in the night... That was
630
00:21:59,580 --> 00:22:00,538
in 19 69.
631
00:22:01,017 --> 00:22:03,572
Now, Donald Graves and and Lucy Hawkins then
632
00:22:03,572 --> 00:22:05,343
we're doing their own study. All of these
633
00:22:05,343 --> 00:22:07,099
people got together if you will, and they
634
00:22:07,099 --> 00:22:09,733
had, like, a consortium of, you know, sharing
635
00:22:09,733 --> 00:22:11,011
ideas, and and I would,
636
00:22:12,048 --> 00:22:13,746
be remiss to say that I actually
637
00:22:14,378 --> 00:22:14,857
have
638
00:22:18,209 --> 00:22:20,145
that I'm an expert on that exact
639
00:22:20,603 --> 00:22:22,690
meeting. Let's just go there. But I had
640
00:22:22,690 --> 00:22:25,790
did hear Janet Emi discuss it. So that's
641
00:22:25,790 --> 00:22:27,856
that's that's my tied to it. And the
642
00:22:27,856 --> 00:22:29,764
mere fact that they all got together, and
643
00:22:29,923 --> 00:22:30,638
Peter Elbow,
644
00:22:31,849 --> 00:22:34,430
Dom Murray, all of them were colleagues
645
00:22:35,450 --> 00:22:36,730
at the time. Excuse me.
646
00:22:37,690 --> 00:22:39,769
And so when you're looking at that,
647
00:22:40,903 --> 00:22:41,403
my
648
00:22:42,020 --> 00:22:43,717
doctor Carol, who I
649
00:22:44,732 --> 00:22:47,843
would would be... If you... Doctor Carol says
650
00:22:47,843 --> 00:22:49,677
that Janet Image was her brain mother, if
651
00:22:49,677 --> 00:22:51,149
you will, when it comes to
652
00:22:52,001 --> 00:22:54,388
knowing all about the writing process. Well, my
653
00:22:54,388 --> 00:22:55,923
brain, if you will would be
654
00:22:56,616 --> 00:22:58,764
doctor Carroll. And so that would be how
655
00:22:58,764 --> 00:22:59,241
that worked.
656
00:22:59,813 --> 00:23:01,483
So doctor Carroll was her student,
657
00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:03,549
and she got her doctorate and all of
658
00:23:03,549 --> 00:23:05,537
that. Well, then she became a professor at
659
00:23:05,616 --> 00:23:07,388
Mc in Abi, Texas
660
00:23:07,699 --> 00:23:09,617
and that's how the New Jersey running project
661
00:23:09,617 --> 00:23:10,816
was brought to Texas.
662
00:23:11,375 --> 00:23:13,293
And that happened in 19 79.
663
00:23:13,932 --> 00:23:14,432
And
664
00:23:14,811 --> 00:23:16,464
and so it was done with a grant
665
00:23:16,584 --> 00:23:17,940
because at this time in the seventies,
666
00:23:18,418 --> 00:23:20,752
they were actually the the
667
00:23:23,043 --> 00:23:25,537
United States, as we know, they were wanting
668
00:23:26,647 --> 00:23:28,981
improvement in the writing process because they realized
669
00:23:29,598 --> 00:23:31,831
teachers were not being trained on how to
670
00:23:31,831 --> 00:23:34,144
write. And had to teach writing not how
671
00:23:34,144 --> 00:23:35,714
to write. But had to teach writing. So
672
00:23:35,914 --> 00:23:37,827
That's where this whole idea came from is
673
00:23:37,827 --> 00:23:40,936
this idea of our... Our teachers do not
674
00:23:40,936 --> 00:23:42,770
know how to teach students how to write.
675
00:23:43,487 --> 00:23:43,987
And
676
00:23:44,619 --> 00:23:46,859
So that's the training process. And she mentions
677
00:23:46,859 --> 00:23:47,099
that.
678
00:23:48,539 --> 00:23:50,299
So I find it interesting. So so I'm
679
00:23:50,299 --> 00:23:52,880
saying all of that to say that
680
00:23:53,673 --> 00:23:54,731
you've got 2
681
00:23:55,189 --> 00:23:57,342
modes of thought, apparently coming out of New
682
00:23:57,422 --> 00:23:57,740
Jersey.
683
00:23:58,378 --> 00:23:59,096
1 is,
684
00:24:00,532 --> 00:24:02,627
with this Judith Hoc
685
00:24:03,098 --> 00:24:05,729
She's got, like, 7 steps. So she creates
686
00:24:05,729 --> 00:24:06,924
the steps for the kids.
687
00:24:07,881 --> 00:24:10,431
But in the writing project or the writing
688
00:24:10,431 --> 00:24:12,673
process of what we do is the kids
689
00:24:12,673 --> 00:24:15,374
create their process. And we recognize that everybody
690
00:24:15,374 --> 00:24:15,874
has
691
00:24:16,248 --> 00:24:18,179
their own process. And so
692
00:24:19,203 --> 00:24:21,767
she... Wanted comment that she made was the
693
00:24:22,220 --> 00:24:23,411
stage on the
694
00:24:24,443 --> 00:24:27,002
the guide on the side versus the stage
695
00:24:27,002 --> 00:24:28,757
on the say, the stage on stage.
696
00:24:29,394 --> 00:24:31,468
And so in this... That... She talks about
697
00:24:31,468 --> 00:24:33,621
this and she uses that as
698
00:24:34,578 --> 00:24:35,136
I would say,
699
00:24:35,868 --> 00:24:37,959
not as a compliment to the writing
700
00:24:38,572 --> 00:24:40,800
teachers. She's saying that that we really need
701
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:41,516
more guidance.
702
00:24:42,072 --> 00:24:44,720
And that actually, you have to assign the
703
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:45,039
writing.
704
00:24:45,678 --> 00:24:46,178
And
705
00:24:46,556 --> 00:24:47,833
that's kinda of what I got So a
706
00:24:47,833 --> 00:24:49,909
hug. She starts with sentences. So you just
707
00:24:49,909 --> 00:24:51,745
do all sentences, sentences sentences.
708
00:24:52,159 --> 00:24:53,755
And you can't write a paper until you
709
00:24:53,755 --> 00:24:54,872
know how to write a good sentence.
710
00:24:55,511 --> 00:24:56,011
And
711
00:24:56,388 --> 00:24:57,745
we feel the opposite of that.
712
00:24:58,543 --> 00:24:59,740
Kids have a lot to say,
713
00:25:00,473 --> 00:25:01,985
And the only way they can figure out
714
00:25:01,985 --> 00:25:03,896
what to say is to actually write it
715
00:25:03,896 --> 00:25:05,488
down so that they can now see what
716
00:25:05,488 --> 00:25:06,762
they need to say. And then we go
717
00:25:06,762 --> 00:25:08,297
back into the writing process
718
00:25:08,608 --> 00:25:10,677
and we work with it. My biggest argument
719
00:25:10,677 --> 00:25:11,473
right now with her,
720
00:25:12,189 --> 00:25:14,020
in this in this with
721
00:25:15,452 --> 00:25:17,442
We in this is she's saying,
722
00:25:18,173 --> 00:25:19,468
that workshop
723
00:25:20,082 --> 00:25:21,854
doesn't even care about
724
00:25:22,945 --> 00:25:23,445
grammar
725
00:25:24,456 --> 00:25:25,888
and all of that. But then she turns
726
00:25:25,888 --> 00:25:26,127
crowd,
727
00:25:26,698 --> 00:25:28,921
and and quote hoc... It says Hoc says,
728
00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,701
well, it's gotta be within the context of
729
00:25:31,701 --> 00:25:33,709
writing. Well, it... How can you
730
00:25:34,814 --> 00:25:36,808
what? You know? I mean, to me, you,
731
00:25:36,967 --> 00:25:39,918
she's arguing for something she turns around, and
732
00:25:39,918 --> 00:25:41,056
she counter argues,
733
00:25:41,992 --> 00:25:43,848
but it and she she kinda
734
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:48,820
I don't know. Dissipate anticipates her own argument.
735
00:25:49,599 --> 00:25:51,519
Yeah. Because that's what we do is we're
736
00:25:51,519 --> 00:25:52,640
like, we're like.
737
00:25:53,694 --> 00:25:56,255
Writing workshop is everything you do is within
738
00:25:56,255 --> 00:25:57,774
the writing. Get the kids to write. They
739
00:25:57,774 --> 00:25:59,615
can't do anything until they write first.
740
00:26:00,575 --> 00:26:03,066
Okay. Now her. Her thing about that is
741
00:26:03,066 --> 00:26:06,099
saying that the kids are riding willy nilly
742
00:26:06,099 --> 00:26:07,775
about stuff that doesn't really matter.
743
00:26:08,574 --> 00:26:10,981
And so they don't have any at knowledge.
744
00:26:11,140 --> 00:26:11,879
And so
745
00:26:12,891 --> 00:26:13,789
so there's no
746
00:26:14,164 --> 00:26:14,664
comprehension
747
00:26:15,755 --> 00:26:17,369
that the kids aren't learning anything
748
00:26:18,078 --> 00:26:19,911
doing it that way. If you just let
749
00:26:19,911 --> 00:26:20,468
them right,
750
00:26:21,743 --> 00:26:23,518
because they need
751
00:26:23,894 --> 00:26:24,394
content,
752
00:26:25,183 --> 00:26:27,569
and so the workshop teacher never gives them
753
00:26:27,569 --> 00:26:28,047
content.
754
00:26:28,524 --> 00:26:30,115
And therefore, they can never teach them to
755
00:26:30,115 --> 00:26:31,547
write because the workshop teacher,
756
00:26:32,355 --> 00:26:35,866
in no way, knows enough information or content
757
00:26:36,079 --> 00:26:37,743
about what the kids are writing. So therefore,
758
00:26:37,902 --> 00:26:39,900
they can't really help. I'm looking at this
759
00:26:39,900 --> 00:26:41,411
book and I'm looking at words because I'm...
760
00:26:41,730 --> 00:26:42,525
Not even on the right page.
761
00:26:43,241 --> 00:26:43,741
So
762
00:26:44,116 --> 00:26:45,786
when I have you What am I talking
763
00:26:45,786 --> 00:26:47,138
about. I'm looking at this book and I
764
00:26:47,138 --> 00:26:49,066
can't find it. Because I'm probably the wrong
765
00:26:49,066 --> 00:26:50,740
page. But anyway, the whole thing is she's
766
00:26:50,740 --> 00:26:52,357
saying that that
767
00:26:53,293 --> 00:26:55,627
teachers who are teaching these kids in a
768
00:26:55,686 --> 00:26:57,701
workshop manner cannot help the kids
769
00:26:58,093 --> 00:26:59,689
get better at their writing because they can't
770
00:26:59,689 --> 00:27:01,683
ride unless they have knowledge about what they're
771
00:27:01,683 --> 00:27:03,039
writing about. So you have to teach them
772
00:27:03,039 --> 00:27:03,916
the knowledge first.
773
00:27:04,713 --> 00:27:06,787
And you can't just let them explore because
774
00:27:06,787 --> 00:27:08,316
if they you let them have choice,
775
00:27:09,190 --> 00:27:10,167
then they
776
00:27:10,541 --> 00:27:12,607
are gonna write about whatever, and there's no
777
00:27:12,607 --> 00:27:15,095
way that a teacher can
778
00:27:15,643 --> 00:27:16,143
comprehend
779
00:27:16,596 --> 00:27:18,026
enough information to help them.
780
00:27:18,741 --> 00:27:20,488
Enough content to help them. And so you
781
00:27:20,488 --> 00:27:21,839
have to teach the content first so that
782
00:27:21,839 --> 00:27:23,586
the teacher will know the content.
783
00:27:24,078 --> 00:27:26,062
Well, so what are we doing here? Are
784
00:27:26,062 --> 00:27:29,157
we creating robots? Because if you... The I'm
785
00:27:29,157 --> 00:27:30,983
really on it Ray Ray, Jordan, I'm sorry.
786
00:27:31,554 --> 00:27:33,630
So anyway... I feel man gum, so you
787
00:27:33,630 --> 00:27:34,508
just seem to go.
788
00:27:35,226 --> 00:27:36,903
So anyway, but the whole thing is is
789
00:27:36,903 --> 00:27:38,420
that's not true. That's not true. That's not
790
00:27:38,420 --> 00:27:40,176
true. I had taught workshop model.
791
00:27:40,989 --> 00:27:42,660
I I mean, and I've taught all these
792
00:27:42,660 --> 00:27:45,048
different subjects, and I've used this the principal
793
00:27:45,048 --> 00:27:46,959
of workshop, the principal of choice,
794
00:27:47,516 --> 00:27:48,471
and you can do it.
795
00:27:49,124 --> 00:27:49,602
But
796
00:27:50,400 --> 00:27:52,395
I... I'm just... I... The whole time I
797
00:27:52,395 --> 00:27:54,150
was reading it. I was like, I had
798
00:27:54,150 --> 00:27:55,825
to go put it down, go walk around.
799
00:27:56,399 --> 00:27:58,792
Go clean something. I mean, my my bathrooms
800
00:27:58,792 --> 00:27:59,351
are now clean.
801
00:28:00,229 --> 00:28:00,729
To
802
00:28:01,425 --> 00:28:03,260
Shut it down. I got to something because
803
00:28:03,340 --> 00:28:03,634
I'm like
804
00:28:04,314 --> 00:28:04,814
No.
805
00:28:05,193 --> 00:28:07,031
And I would look at my shelves of
806
00:28:07,031 --> 00:28:09,029
all of this, I have all these... You've
807
00:28:09,029 --> 00:28:11,106
seen my my house. I've got books all
808
00:28:11,106 --> 00:28:13,519
over the place about writing workshops and everything
809
00:28:13,519 --> 00:28:15,440
else and I'm like, you're saying that all
810
00:28:15,440 --> 00:28:17,200
this stuff that these people have done I
811
00:28:17,200 --> 00:28:19,519
was wrong. There's no way it's wrong. And
812
00:28:19,519 --> 00:28:22,013
then she has audacity to turn on at
813
00:28:22,013 --> 00:28:23,287
the very end of the book and say,
814
00:28:23,366 --> 00:28:25,914
well, you know, you have 2 modes or
815
00:28:25,914 --> 00:28:28,621
whatever of of writing, which 1 is the
816
00:28:28,621 --> 00:28:29,496
1 you're gonna choose.
817
00:28:30,068 --> 00:28:31,818
You know, And then she says something in
818
00:28:31,818 --> 00:28:34,443
here about how how, you know, we how
819
00:28:34,443 --> 00:28:35,818
we are heartbreaking
820
00:28:37,084 --> 00:28:38,597
But what was that did you did you
821
00:28:38,597 --> 00:28:40,271
make that... Did you get that quote in
822
00:28:40,271 --> 00:28:42,263
your pictures? Because you take pictures? So I
823
00:28:42,263 --> 00:28:44,334
do... But anyway, the... I'm gonna find the
824
00:28:44,334 --> 00:28:46,326
quote? I'm gonna find it here because it
825
00:28:46,326 --> 00:28:48,811
just But anyway, even like how at the
826
00:28:48,811 --> 00:28:50,347
end, there it's just heartbreaking
827
00:28:51,201 --> 00:28:53,273
wrong what we're doing to these kids. And
828
00:28:53,432 --> 00:28:55,264
I am just so, like, not happy about
829
00:28:55,264 --> 00:28:55,583
this book.
830
00:28:56,874 --> 00:28:57,512
By the way.
831
00:28:59,587 --> 00:29:02,859
You... So there you go. I'm done down
832
00:29:02,859 --> 00:29:04,215
no longer what I know what I'm... I
833
00:29:04,215 --> 00:29:05,746
don't even know I'm saying anymore. I'm getting,
834
00:29:05,826 --> 00:29:07,820
like, hot here. I'm my face is starting
835
00:29:07,820 --> 00:29:09,894
red. I'm starting to... It's not good. It's
836
00:29:09,894 --> 00:29:11,648
not good. By the way I wanna show
837
00:29:11,648 --> 00:29:13,483
you. So the way I do notes when
838
00:29:13,642 --> 00:29:15,971
I when I do these, as I take,
839
00:29:16,131 --> 00:29:18,524
like, bullet points of... These are sometimes quotes
840
00:29:18,524 --> 00:29:19,961
or my thoughts. And then I put the
841
00:29:19,961 --> 00:29:21,637
pictures right in there. And so... That's good.
842
00:29:21,876 --> 00:29:23,650
I like that. Yeah. It's good. It's fun
843
00:29:23,650 --> 00:29:25,250
little. It's my own little way
844
00:29:25,809 --> 00:29:27,970
Taking those my first before right.
845
00:29:28,690 --> 00:29:30,210
Okay. Go ahead go. I found it. I
846
00:29:30,210 --> 00:29:31,730
found it. I can't help you. I can't
847
00:29:31,730 --> 00:29:33,494
help it. This is in epi log on.
848
00:29:33,812 --> 00:29:35,002
I'm skipping to the ep log to be
849
00:29:35,002 --> 00:29:37,406
honest. Are you okay with that? Yeah. We're
850
00:29:37,700 --> 00:29:39,579
says... I kinda preface that we weren't spend
851
00:29:39,778 --> 00:29:41,052
time I... I'm gonna... I'm gonna read this
852
00:29:41,052 --> 00:29:42,803
part if you're coat this because it's really
853
00:29:42,803 --> 00:29:44,474
just... I I think I just put the
854
00:29:44,474 --> 00:29:46,703
book on my my table. There's no 1
855
00:29:46,703 --> 00:29:48,636
right way to provide a high quality
856
00:29:49,011 --> 00:29:49,981
education Alright.
857
00:29:50,696 --> 00:29:52,764
And this country is too big and varied
858
00:29:52,764 --> 00:29:54,910
for 1 size fits all prescriptions. That agrees
859
00:29:54,910 --> 00:29:56,183
with what you said at the beginning of
860
00:29:56,183 --> 00:29:58,104
the book when we talked about it. But
861
00:29:58,104 --> 00:30:00,720
if we're equipped with a basic scientific under...
862
00:30:01,196 --> 00:30:01,696
Scientific
863
00:30:02,147 --> 00:30:02,647
understanding
864
00:30:03,019 --> 00:30:04,922
about which methods are most effective,
865
00:30:05,573 --> 00:30:08,300
and most likely to provide an engaging experience
866
00:30:08,357 --> 00:30:09,073
for kids.
867
00:30:09,789 --> 00:30:12,414
We should all be able to distinguish between
868
00:30:12,414 --> 00:30:14,977
approaches that are likely to produce outcomes we
869
00:30:14,977 --> 00:30:15,376
want.
870
00:30:16,253 --> 00:30:18,726
And those that will only lead to a
871
00:30:18,726 --> 00:30:19,226
heartbreaking
872
00:30:19,683 --> 00:30:23,033
waste precious time. Are you kidding me? I
873
00:30:23,033 --> 00:30:23,772
have been
874
00:30:24,564 --> 00:30:26,961
Wasting these kids precious time. I have not...
875
00:30:27,201 --> 00:30:29,039
I've got too many notes. I've got too
876
00:30:29,039 --> 00:30:31,277
many adults who've come back. I've even been
877
00:30:31,277 --> 00:30:33,690
chased down in the Walmart parking lot. And
878
00:30:33,690 --> 00:30:36,569
said, thank you to. I mean, doing miss
879
00:30:36,730 --> 00:30:38,730
How I made it. I'm now this, and
880
00:30:38,730 --> 00:30:40,809
you're writing helped me. I'm telling you.
881
00:30:41,944 --> 00:30:44,184
No. I'm not buying that 1 ounce, and
882
00:30:44,265 --> 00:30:45,804
I hated that it was written. And
883
00:30:46,105 --> 00:30:47,704
she she starts off with, there's a lot
884
00:30:47,704 --> 00:30:49,384
of different ways and ends but there's really
885
00:30:49,384 --> 00:30:50,024
only 1 way.
886
00:30:51,235 --> 00:30:53,702
Thank you. I'm ted. She she has a
887
00:30:53,702 --> 00:30:55,634
bias. She says this in
888
00:30:56,646 --> 00:30:57,146
the
889
00:30:58,491 --> 00:31:00,241
acknowledgement. I would now I wanna read some
890
00:31:00,241 --> 00:31:01,934
of this because I think this
891
00:31:05,268 --> 00:31:07,415
this helps kind of put in the context
892
00:31:07,415 --> 00:31:08,847
of just kind of who she is. Like,
893
00:31:09,006 --> 00:31:10,040
I would love to talk to her. Like,
894
00:31:10,199 --> 00:31:11,313
I'm gonna reach out to her and See
895
00:31:11,313 --> 00:31:13,560
she'll come on teacher across You better not
896
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:15,396
let her hear our stuff, get you better
897
00:31:15,396 --> 00:31:17,151
hide this 1. Why just I think we've
898
00:31:17,151 --> 00:31:19,545
been respectful we... Might not want to come.
899
00:31:20,119 --> 00:31:21,957
No. I I think we've been respectful. I
900
00:31:21,957 --> 00:31:23,875
think anyone worked their all could hear us
901
00:31:23,875 --> 00:31:25,632
podcasting and realize that we're really given it.
902
00:31:26,032 --> 00:31:28,085
It's credit. We just have disagreements, but
903
00:31:28,682 --> 00:31:30,831
Here she says, so this was just. I
904
00:31:30,831 --> 00:31:32,503
mere 5 years ago, I knew nothing about
905
00:31:32,503 --> 00:31:34,813
the subject of this book. Even though I
906
00:31:34,813 --> 00:31:36,405
thought I knew quite a bit about education.
907
00:31:36,738 --> 00:31:39,041
My first inkling came from Judy H,
908
00:31:39,438 --> 00:31:40,867
a veteran educator whom,
909
00:31:41,423 --> 00:31:43,249
I had come to know through her work
910
00:31:43,249 --> 00:31:44,202
on writing instruction.
911
00:31:44,694 --> 00:31:46,373
I had a hard time understanding what she
912
00:31:46,373 --> 00:31:48,610
was trying to convey. What do you mean?
913
00:31:49,090 --> 00:31:50,948
I said when she told me the most
914
00:31:51,008 --> 00:31:53,325
elementary schools weren't even trying to teach anything
915
00:31:53,325 --> 00:31:53,805
of substance.
916
00:31:54,458 --> 00:31:56,132
Their schools aren't they?
917
00:31:56,929 --> 00:31:58,864
That's what's funny. Is she constantly
918
00:31:59,241 --> 00:32:00,059
points out
919
00:32:00,516 --> 00:32:02,132
schools should teach
920
00:32:03,004 --> 00:32:05,960
specific things. Right? But here's a couple things.
921
00:32:07,479 --> 00:32:09,157
She points out some good stuff. Right? I
922
00:32:09,157 --> 00:32:10,914
wanna I wanna put this at the front.
923
00:32:11,169 --> 00:32:13,082
Of what that it. Okay. Alright. Because if
924
00:32:13,082 --> 00:32:14,436
you want kids to read better, you gotta
925
00:32:14,436 --> 00:32:17,305
have them right. Agreed. I agree. U. If
926
00:32:17,305 --> 00:32:18,044
they write
927
00:32:18,994 --> 00:32:20,434
in it, they can read it.
928
00:32:22,035 --> 00:32:24,035
Yes. We know that's just what we advocate
929
00:32:24,035 --> 00:32:25,875
for if your if you're reading argument,
930
00:32:26,609 --> 00:32:28,950
they should be writing argument.
931
00:32:29,809 --> 00:32:30,549
If they're
932
00:32:30,930 --> 00:32:33,569
narratives. Yeah. They should be writing narratives.
933
00:32:34,064 --> 00:32:36,377
And we have whole podcast on that. Correct.
934
00:32:37,095 --> 00:32:39,407
Endless. That's 1 of the the reoccurring themes
935
00:32:39,407 --> 00:32:41,561
of what we talk about. But there's also
936
00:32:41,561 --> 00:32:43,257
another thing here which I find
937
00:32:43,968 --> 00:32:46,861
is so interesting, and I would love to
938
00:32:46,919 --> 00:32:47,419
to
939
00:32:47,956 --> 00:32:49,471
pick her brain about where she's out with
940
00:32:49,471 --> 00:32:53,001
this. Which she says expression is harder than
941
00:32:53,234 --> 00:32:53,734
inception.
942
00:32:54,909 --> 00:32:56,743
So the reason why the... This is a
943
00:32:56,743 --> 00:32:59,615
personal issue that's connected to me because of
944
00:32:59,615 --> 00:33:02,885
rightfully empowered. Rightfully empowered it's all about expression.
945
00:33:03,379 --> 00:33:04,575
I didn't tackle grammar.
946
00:33:05,533 --> 00:33:06,830
I didn't tackle anything,
947
00:33:08,325 --> 00:33:10,022
except for getting kids
948
00:33:10,573 --> 00:33:12,721
to learn how to express their ideas and
949
00:33:12,721 --> 00:33:14,074
learn how to talk to them about their
950
00:33:14,074 --> 00:33:15,666
ideas to teach them how to write their
951
00:33:15,666 --> 00:33:17,098
ideas better. And that's all... That was the
952
00:33:17,098 --> 00:33:17,598
whole
953
00:33:17,988 --> 00:33:19,497
right Goal of that book. It was not
954
00:33:19,497 --> 00:33:21,799
a mechanical book. It was an expression book.
955
00:33:23,388 --> 00:33:25,691
But here's the quote where this comes from.
956
00:33:25,929 --> 00:33:26,326
She says,
957
00:33:28,170 --> 00:33:30,958
Hot came to understand. Writing is a lot
958
00:33:30,958 --> 00:33:33,926
harder than people... Most people realize. It's commonly
959
00:33:34,064 --> 00:33:35,656
assume that if kids read a lot, they'll
960
00:33:35,656 --> 00:33:38,142
simply up the techniques of good writing. But
961
00:33:38,142 --> 00:33:39,976
for many that's not the case. Writing is
962
00:33:39,976 --> 00:33:42,367
far more difficult than reading, just as speaking
963
00:33:42,367 --> 00:33:44,361
of foreign lego is more difficult than understanding
964
00:33:44,361 --> 00:33:48,366
it. Because it's expressive rather than receptive.
965
00:33:49,403 --> 00:33:52,037
Excellent readers can struggle with writing. The same
966
00:33:52,037 --> 00:33:54,307
goes for speaking ability. As Hoc been,
967
00:33:54,923 --> 00:33:57,553
writing English is like second language with different
968
00:33:57,553 --> 00:34:01,232
demands and conventions. So I wanted the I
969
00:34:01,232 --> 00:34:03,378
love that quote because I agree with it.
970
00:34:03,934 --> 00:34:07,352
I agree that expression is harder than reception.
971
00:34:07,829 --> 00:34:08,329
But
972
00:34:08,798 --> 00:34:11,829
when she... When she she doesn't extrapolate from
973
00:34:11,829 --> 00:34:13,423
that, because I was like, oh, here we
974
00:34:13,423 --> 00:34:15,417
go. I was like, I don't need everything
975
00:34:15,417 --> 00:34:17,171
and that's happening here, but I'm I'm... What
976
00:34:17,331 --> 00:34:17,411
I'm...
977
00:34:18,380 --> 00:34:20,128
Hoping that she gets to which she never
978
00:34:20,128 --> 00:34:21,876
does, which I'm gonna talk about here, which
979
00:34:21,876 --> 00:34:22,376
is
980
00:34:23,306 --> 00:34:23,806
writing
981
00:34:25,468 --> 00:34:27,621
based on that quote, and based on kind
982
00:34:27,621 --> 00:34:29,376
of the research that's happening from the person
983
00:34:29,376 --> 00:34:29,854
she's quoting.
984
00:34:31,609 --> 00:34:33,943
Is all centered around the idea
985
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:35,713
that it's its
986
00:34:36,091 --> 00:34:38,484
creation. But the writing that she advocates throughout
987
00:34:38,484 --> 00:34:40,559
the rest of the chapter and into the
988
00:34:40,559 --> 00:34:41,915
next chapter and her epi,
989
00:34:42,329 --> 00:34:44,264
is all... It's all
990
00:34:45,518 --> 00:34:48,947
it's receptive writing. It's... I read something and
991
00:34:48,947 --> 00:34:49,346
respond.
992
00:34:49,904 --> 00:34:51,042
I read something
993
00:34:51,674 --> 00:34:54,471
and I write from that. She even talks
994
00:34:54,471 --> 00:34:57,107
about it in her own work when she
995
00:34:57,107 --> 00:34:58,545
was... I don't know if I... I'm trying
996
00:34:58,545 --> 00:35:00,000
of if this is in the acknowledgment or
997
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,440
the epi hog which she was talking about...
998
00:35:02,079 --> 00:35:03,679
When she was... I think it's in her
999
00:35:03,679 --> 00:35:05,760
ep in her acknowledgement. She's talking about when
1000
00:35:05,760 --> 00:35:06,900
she was teaching kids
1001
00:35:07,292 --> 00:35:09,277
She like, was tutoring these his school kids,
1002
00:35:09,436 --> 00:35:11,103
and she would hand them passages, and they
1003
00:35:11,103 --> 00:35:12,770
were struggling to write about what they were
1004
00:35:12,770 --> 00:35:15,176
reading. Into her, that was, like the biggest
1005
00:35:15,390 --> 00:35:15,549
frustration.
1006
00:35:16,679 --> 00:35:19,256
But to me, I'm like, you're... That's receptive
1007
00:35:19,315 --> 00:35:19,795
writing.
1008
00:35:20,274 --> 00:35:22,192
I didn't use that language and rightfully empowered,
1009
00:35:22,351 --> 00:35:23,950
but that's exactly what I'm about. The very...
1010
00:35:24,523 --> 00:35:26,356
That first chapter not to talk about me
1011
00:35:26,356 --> 00:35:27,472
because I know this is a book study,
1012
00:35:27,631 --> 00:35:29,623
but the first chapter rightfully empowered.
1013
00:35:30,978 --> 00:35:33,221
I worked. I revised and worked on that.
1014
00:35:33,380 --> 00:35:35,369
That is to this day, the best argument
1015
00:35:35,449 --> 00:35:36,005
I've ever made,
1016
00:35:37,278 --> 00:35:38,233
about teaching...
1017
00:35:38,964 --> 00:35:41,117
Kids had a right the way that I
1018
00:35:41,117 --> 00:35:42,314
advocate for in the way you advocate for
1019
00:35:42,314 --> 00:35:43,590
in the way a lot of were writing
1020
00:35:43,590 --> 00:35:44,706
workshop teachers advocate for,
1021
00:35:45,584 --> 00:35:48,376
which is what she also bash Lucy Hawkins
1022
00:35:48,376 --> 00:35:48,535
for.
1023
00:35:49,822 --> 00:35:52,762
Which is going from expression. She kind of
1024
00:35:52,762 --> 00:35:55,146
makes fun of it in this chapter. Mh.
1025
00:35:55,543 --> 00:35:57,473
She talks about, they're kinda write about their
1026
00:35:57,473 --> 00:35:59,151
personal experiences. They're young. They don't have a
1027
00:35:59,151 --> 00:36:01,250
lot of personal experiences. It's exactly...
1028
00:36:01,869 --> 00:36:04,186
But that's but that's not why you do
1029
00:36:04,186 --> 00:36:06,838
it. You don't do that. Because that's all
1030
00:36:06,838 --> 00:36:08,995
they're gonna write about. You do it because
1031
00:36:08,995 --> 00:36:11,631
that's the door into getting them addicted to
1032
00:36:11,631 --> 00:36:12,110
writing.
1033
00:36:13,005 --> 00:36:15,885
They are not gonna care about writing if
1034
00:36:15,885 --> 00:36:18,204
they're only writing about what you tell them
1035
00:36:18,204 --> 00:36:20,525
to do via a passage. I don't care
1036
00:36:20,525 --> 00:36:21,905
if the... It's the greatest
1037
00:36:22,218 --> 00:36:22,718
passage
1038
00:36:23,411 --> 00:36:24,207
about history,
1039
00:36:24,605 --> 00:36:27,413
science, math, whatever. Right? Whatever knowledge
1040
00:36:28,027 --> 00:36:30,971
you're trying to give them, I don't care.
1041
00:36:31,701 --> 00:36:33,628
It that it is a mis
1042
00:36:34,317 --> 00:36:35,823
representation of what we're all talking about Talking
1043
00:36:35,823 --> 00:36:38,969
about writing workshop. You do not make kids
1044
00:36:39,089 --> 00:36:41,396
right about their personal experiences, the things they
1045
00:36:41,396 --> 00:36:44,101
know the connections they're making because that's all
1046
00:36:44,101 --> 00:36:45,851
you can get them to write about. If
1047
00:36:45,851 --> 00:36:47,545
you want it to be a willy nilly
1048
00:36:47,681 --> 00:36:49,606
workshop you do it because you want them
1049
00:36:49,606 --> 00:36:52,709
to find value in putting their personal experiences,
1050
00:36:52,868 --> 00:36:55,827
their words, their emotions, their thoughts on the
1051
00:36:55,827 --> 00:36:57,976
page. The reason why you have so many
1052
00:36:57,976 --> 00:36:59,511
d rejected riders
1053
00:37:00,523 --> 00:37:01,660
is because
1054
00:37:02,036 --> 00:37:05,728
all we do for 12 years or more
1055
00:37:05,784 --> 00:37:08,164
for their educational career is tell them what
1056
00:37:08,164 --> 00:37:09,830
they have to write about. And then we
1057
00:37:09,830 --> 00:37:11,338
tell them they're not writing about it well
1058
00:37:11,338 --> 00:37:12,784
enough. And then we say, you know what?
1059
00:37:12,942 --> 00:37:14,534
You can't even write yet. You need to
1060
00:37:14,534 --> 00:37:16,704
write a plan that I've designed
1061
00:37:17,159 --> 00:37:19,583
that you have to follow which she also
1062
00:37:20,679 --> 00:37:22,673
advocates for in the book, and I'm not
1063
00:37:22,673 --> 00:37:24,986
saying you can't plan. I'm not saying,
1064
00:37:26,023 --> 00:37:26,523
those
1065
00:37:26,980 --> 00:37:28,416
tools aren't useful.
1066
00:37:28,989 --> 00:37:32,679
What I'm saying is she waters down her
1067
00:37:32,737 --> 00:37:35,449
perception of what writing is and honestly creates
1068
00:37:35,449 --> 00:37:38,001
a straw man out of C as as
1069
00:37:38,001 --> 00:37:40,190
a as a scape code for the whole
1070
00:37:40,406 --> 00:37:41,224
issue, honestly.
1071
00:37:42,635 --> 00:37:44,227
She puts Call as a scape,
1072
00:37:45,262 --> 00:37:48,148
But really what she's back is something that
1073
00:37:48,148 --> 00:37:49,127
she really doesn't
1074
00:37:49,506 --> 00:37:49,985
understand,
1075
00:37:50,545 --> 00:37:52,542
and that's what got me the most. As
1076
00:37:52,622 --> 00:37:54,161
I was like, that's not why
1077
00:37:54,793 --> 00:37:56,704
we do that. That... We don't get kids
1078
00:37:56,704 --> 00:37:57,523
to write
1079
00:37:58,217 --> 00:38:00,527
about things they care about because that's all
1080
00:38:00,527 --> 00:38:01,722
we can get them to connect to. We're
1081
00:38:01,722 --> 00:38:03,177
not trying to build knowledge
1082
00:38:03,489 --> 00:38:04,927
or we don't see the value in knowledge.
1083
00:38:05,327 --> 00:38:07,084
We're doing that. So they understand the value
1084
00:38:07,084 --> 00:38:08,064
of writing.
1085
00:38:10,613 --> 00:38:12,518
But pause there arrow show because that's all
1086
00:38:12,518 --> 00:38:14,661
on the free episode. If you want more,
1087
00:38:14,820 --> 00:38:16,884
If you wanna his response, ladies and gentlemen.
1088
00:38:17,280 --> 00:38:19,320
To join us on patreon on the next
1089
00:38:19,439 --> 00:38:20,574
half of this podcast.
1090
00:38:21,265 --> 00:38:23,013
It's gonna be all over there on patreon
1091
00:38:23,013 --> 00:38:24,840
on this patreon dot com slash drop. Talk
1092
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:27,222
about the video. So if you want to
1093
00:38:27,222 --> 00:38:30,034
keep doing this, join in, dive into all
1094
00:38:30,034 --> 00:38:32,195
those things and honestly just support the podcast,
1095
00:38:32,675 --> 00:38:33,795
go over there do so you can get
1096
00:38:33,795 --> 00:38:35,554
the rest of those podcast right now.
1097
00:38:36,448 --> 00:38:38,442
Because by the time you're hearing this. There
1098
00:38:38,442 --> 00:38:39,877
hard to be over there. So go check
1099
00:38:39,877 --> 00:38:41,472
it out. There's tons of other content over
1100
00:38:41,472 --> 00:38:43,545
there, the rest of the book study, videos,
1101
00:38:43,864 --> 00:38:45,953
etcetera, etcetera. That's Payroll trail. I Jacob Chess
1102
00:38:45,953 --> 00:38:46,910
said. Thank you for listening.
1103
00:38:47,388 --> 00:38:49,302
Come back next week for another fantastic episode
1104
00:38:49,382 --> 00:38:50,259
I know that we are here.
1105
00:38:50,976 --> 00:38:51,375
Who are you?