Jessica (00:06)
Kelly, have you ever added something to your resume, taken an extra course, or waited to share something until you had one more thing to point to, not because you needed it, but but because it made you feel safer, like the certification before launching, the once I finish this, or like a moment someone else just started with no qualifications and it worked, like it made you feel a certain way.
Kelly (00:31)
Yeah.
a lot. A lot of time I feel that way. especially now with AI coming into play and just having the certification of that and feeling like I, you know, have to have these certifications in order to get get somewhere.
Jessica (00:49)
I remember you and I talked a long time ago about you not having an MBA.
Kelly (00:56)
Yes. Yeah.
Jessica (00:58)
And feeling like for some reason, well I can't do that.
Kelly (01:00)
I had a job yeah, well I was
planning d I took the I actually took the
G Mat.
Jessica (01:10)
G R E. it's a G Matt.
Kelly (01:12)
yeah, I took the G Mat what after I graduated from high from college and I was planning to get my MBA. I was working at Honeywell at the time. And then when I moved to Chicago, at one point I was looking for another job and I remember interviewing with Leo Burnett, big ad firm at the time. And they were like, When are you getting your MBA? And
Jessica (01:34)
Yeah.
Kelly (01:35)
I was like, if you hire me, I'll get my MBA.
And I went, I ended up doing consulting and I ended up working with a bunch of guys who had their MBAs. And you know, honestly, I felt like I had a really great undergraduate degree, business degree from Notre Dame. And I don't mean to name drop, but it was a very it was before it became Mendoza School of Business.
Jessica (01:57)
Yeah.
Kelly (01:58)
I never felt inadequate, like
Jessica (02:00)
Yeah.
Kelly (02:01)
in like academically or like intelligent wise, like brain-wise, right? I never
Jessica (02:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly (02:07)
felt inadequate.
But it was like I needed that piece of paper. and so it did
Jessica (02:12)
Yeah.
Kelly (02:12)
limit me in a lot of ways for certain jobs because I didn't have that.
Jessica (02:16)
Well, because of that, them saying when you get an Earn BA then that's in your head. And so then you're thinking, when you wanna do something, yeah, totally.
Kelly (02:22)
Like, I'm not good enough. Yeah.
You know, it's funny because Wes, small tangent here. Wes has taken an AP class. We had to register for like whatever the college board AP stuff. And you had to fill out this thing, or it was like, you know, what's your ethnicity? Blah, blah. It goes in really deep, actually, about like what tribe do you belong to, blah, blah, blah. But it was like, what's your mom's name? What education does she have? And he said, professional certificate. And I was like, what does your dad have?
graduate degree and I was like and he clicked submit and I was like hold on here dad I like I have an undergrad I don't have a professional certificate and you said dad has
Jessica (03:02)
Yeah. You have a battery.
Kelly (03:04)
a graduate dad has two graduate degrees I was like no I no he doesn't and he was like well he has a degree in industrial design and a degree in MFA and I was like I have a degree too and he was like well what's yours in
Jessica (03:18)
That's so
funny. Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly (03:20)
And I was like, I have
a bachelor business. I'm like, Your dad and I both have undergraduate degrees and then your dad has a graduate degree. And he was sort of still like, Well, I don't really know. It doesn't really matter. And I was like, Yes, it does. Now people think that you don't have you have a parent that doesn't have an undergraduate degree. I just felt like you know how that like I don't know if you felt that way as a kid where you were so proud 'cause you said both of your parents had bachelor's degrees. Or like
Jessica (03:42)
Yeah. Well, I think it
it has you feeling unseen, you know?
Kelly (03:47)
Yeah. Yes, it did. I'm
and I don't think I know he doesn't mean it that way. So it was this whole interesting little thing, but I think getting back
Jessica (03:54)
Yeah.
Kelly (03:55)
to the topic at hand here, right? Which is really about feeling like you need to be credentialed. Feeling
Jessica (04:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Kelly (04:02)
like that is going to be part of associating that with achievement in something that you can get to. we are fortunate that in a lot of ways we are in the generation where
I don't know about you, but I had colleagues even in consulting. I worked with people who had University of Chicago MBAs, top MBAs. and then I worked with guys who didn't have any degree, who just, especially because I'm working in technology, there were still a lot of people who kind of worked their way up. And
Jessica (04:34)
Yeah.
Kelly (04:34)
so it's interesting because I do feel like anymore now, this credential thing, it's really easy to fall into that trap.
Jessica (04:43)
Yeah.
Kelly (04:44)
getting back to this topic at hand. Last week we talked about the I'm not ready yet as fear, dressed up as logic. and this week we want to kind of pull on that thread a little bit more because we want to talk about the credential trap and have how that's like its own thing. it's not just procrastination. it's actually kind of a specific pattern and it's easy to fall into.
Jessica (05:11)
Yeah, and just like we you were talking about, it's a woman who has more than enough to begin, but she keeps adding to the list one more thing, one more year of experience, you know, one more thing to point to so when someone questions her, she feels like she has the answer.
Kelly (05:26)
And what makes it tricky is, you know, it looks like ambition from the outside.
Jessica (05:35)
Yeah, looks like diligence, but underneath it almost always is the question, Do I have the right to be here? You know, a little bit of imposter syndrome.
Kelly (05:42)
Yes. Yeah,
for sure.
Jessica (05:47)
This is really rooted in how women are socialized. Reshma Saujani has this line. I hope I'm pronouncing her name right. Has this line that stays with me. Girls are taught to be perfect. Boys are taught to be brave. By the time we're adults, many women have internalized the idea that you have to earn your place before you take it.
Kelly (06:15)
Yeah. And you know, I know there's a lot of studies on this, but one of the ones that I found just as my research for this episode is KPMG study on women in leadership who found that 75% of female executives have reported experiencing that imposter syndrome syndrome. And one of the most common coping strategies is adding credentials, that idea of more proof, more qualifications. Because if the bar keeps moving, you can just keep running.
Jessica (06:46)
And here's the clinical piece. The bar will keep moving. There is no credential that makes you feel permanently qualified because the credential was never actually the problem. The belonging question was the problem. And a certificate cannot answer a belonging question. That, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy piece, the story you tell yourself creates your reality that I say all the time in my professional and personal life, right?
Kelly (07:13)
one of the things here, Jess, for me, so right now I am one of the thing, one of the career paths I am right now is a project manager. And one of the like cornerstones of being a project manager is being a having a PMP certificate, which is a project management professional. And it is this international institute that
has all these PMP practices. You have to take 60 hours of classroom and then you take a test. And then if you pass the test, you can get your PMP certification. And so for me, that was something that I really thought I needed to do to be a project manager. And so I went through all of that learning and I went through up to the point to take the test. And I even had the test scheduled. And then I actually got laid off from HP at the time and I moved and I changed jobs. And I never pursued it.
because I got that far and I really felt like I needed to do it. But you know what was interesting is I learned that I didn't need it. And I didn't need
Jessica (08:24)
Yeah.
Kelly (08:25)
it because I was able to really perform and get jobs done in a way that I didn't I realized that I I had the capability inside of me. I didn't need that piece of paper to prove it. And so
Jessica (08:41)
Well,
yeah.
Kelly (08:42)
I just wanted to like I wanted to make a distinction here that, you know, there's a difference between like preparation and permission seeking is, you know, they can look identical from the outside and thinking about that piece, right? Which is me thinking about needing and learning all that stuff and then having to get this like permission that I had to have this certification.
Jessica (09:04)
Years ago I was in my clinical supervisor's office and she had several certifications on the wall and I was like, what's that one? And she was like, you just pay for it. And so sometimes I think to some
Kelly (09:16)
Yeah.
Jessica (09:17)
extent, like I'm like, I'll know someone and it might be activating for like a second when they're like, PCT, I'm seven two, and you're like, what do I need to have though? And then I'm like, have that shit you're just fucking paying for.
And I think at this point in my career, I've been doing this for 21 years. And I even got a call for EMDR. And I'm not EMDR certified. It's eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. It it was created for like to help it's a brain-based intervention that helps process trauma, but now it's used for all kinds of things. And I actually trained in brain spotting instead.
And every once in a while, like if people are like, Are you training EMDR? I'll be shoot, I should do an EMDR training. But it's like what you talked about. It's like really expensive and it's like a long time. It's a it's a long time to go be certified in it. And it's very technical. And brain spotting is very free flowing. And I'm more of a free flow person. Listeners, Kelly and I had a conversation before we started recording just about her and I don't necessarily follow rules all the time.
And so it's like, I don't want to do this like rigid thing when I am already a trauma-informed therapist in the game 21 years. Like, I don't want to just be pigeonholed in this EMDR thing. but still it can sometimes trigger me. And it's like what Kelly's saying is the diff the difference there is in the function because preparation moves you towards something, but permission seeking keeps you at a safe distance. And so if it's for like approval of others and not from this intrinsic motivation.
That's the difference.
Kelly (10:59)
Yeah, so I think that when you're in it though, Jess, it's hard to tell, right,
what the difference is.
Jessica (11:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly (11:08)
So what would be some questions that could help distinguish that?
Jessica (11:12)
Yeah, like
how do you know you're permission seeking versus you're really legitimately preparing? So I think questions that I find useful are first is like, is this new knowledge that you don't have, or is this a delay? Will this actually change how I do something? second, who are you imagining will finally give you permission when you finish? Because if there's a person in your head.
you know, a parent, a mentor, a critic, you're not preparing, you're seeking approval.
Kelly (11:51)
The second one, Jess, you know, I think that is really a gut punch. this idea that there's this voice or this, you know, person
Jessica (12:06)
Yeah.
Kelly (12:07)
in your head.
Jessica (12:08)
Yeah. I think this is so interesting. This season is interesting. because these episodes are talking more about professional stuff versus personal stuff. And for whatever reason, I don't know why, but like I've never I don't know, I've never felt
less than professionally or intellectually. Right. If you were to like to say something about me personally, like my looks or that I drive terrible or I'm a terrible cook. I don't know, though though I don't, whatever, like those might really hit me hard. But like I
Kelly (12:52)
Yeah.
Jessica (12:53)
have not and also it's hard to cause I've been doing this, like I said, for 21 years, right? So it's hard to remember, you know, early Jessica. But I don't I don't feel like I've
Fault impostor syndrome, or maybe that's not recent. I mean, when I first started, it's like you're you're letting me go in a room with another person and be a therapist. Like, here, here we go. but I just think that's not like triggering for me, like getting credentials or proving to other people because I've had my own practice for a minute. And I think maybe at first I was trying to like impress people, but now I'm like, I'm not everyone's cup of tea. If you don't like me, you don't like me. I can't, I can't not be me.
Kelly (13:36)
Yeah. Well, I think that is really important to think about is going to what we're saying here, right? Is this whole idea of doing this because you are doing it for yourself versus doing it for something else. And yeah, keep
Jessica (13:55)
Yeah, you keep and and like, sorry.
Kelly (13:57)
going.
Jessica (13:58)
And what we're talking about is like keep moving the bar. So is the bar yours? Did you choose the bar? Like you weren't thanking Kelly with your program manager thing, like, my gosh, I really would love to learn a little bit more and to get some new concepts. So I'm gonna go get the certification, right? You didn't choose the bar. The bar was, my gosh, I look left, I look right, everyone has this, I need to have this, right?
Kelly (14:20)
Right. You're chasing
after this like footer at the bottom of your email or whatever it is, right? That
Jessica (14:24)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kelly (14:26)
like you feel like that is needed. and so I think that's the real careful is like the intention. So, you know, going back to that bar, there's a Harvard business review piece that pushes back on the just fix your imposter syndrome narrative. And it makes the point that many women, especially women of color, but the bias they're anticipating isn't imagined, that there's extra proof they're gathering.
Is a rational response to a system that actually does require more of them. And that
Jessica (14:55)
Yeah.
Kelly (14:56)
is, you know, the whole idea that the bar is set different for different people is really tough. And I mean, I feel that way. I probably I work a lot in a lot of situations where I'm the only female on a call, most
Jessica (15:10)
Yeah.
Kelly (15:11)
or whatever it is in the room. And I feel that, I feel that too.
Jessica (15:16)
Yes.
and just the research like you're talking about is just there is legitimate stuff happening where women, people of color, legitimately are way, way, way overqualified and they have to be just to prove that they deserve to be in the room. And so I think what
you're talking about what we're speaking to is we know that this isn't imagined. We know that there are social pressures. And like you're saying in this Harvard Business Review piece, that it's like you can't just like fix your imposter syndrome because there are some there are research and societal,
Kelly (15:48)
There are legitimate, yeah.
Jessica (15:50)
yeah. And I think there's that's an important distinction because this isn't about us telling every woman just leap and trust, because for some
Women, the extra preparation is strategic, it's armour and it's necessary.
Kelly (16:01)
Yeah. And so I the question isn't always like stop getting more credentials. It's the why, right? Are you doing this
Jessica (16:08)
Yeah.
Kelly (16:09)
because the situation genuinely requires it?
or
Jessica (16:12)
Yeah, yeah.
Kelly (16:13)
because it's the same old story in your head that you feel like you're not enough and you need to continue to gather more credentials.
Jessica (16:24)
And both of those can be true at the same time. It's just that you need to take time and recognize that you deserve to know which one is driving.
Let's look at our brighter moves. My brighter move for this week is instead of asking, am I qualified enough? I think we can ask, am I curious enough? Am I committed enough? Do I care about this enough? Those are the things that actually carry you through. Qualifications get you in the room, but commitment keeps you there.
Kelly (17:00)
I love that. My brighter move is audit one thing that you're waiting to finish before you start something else and ask honestly, is this genuinely necessary? Or is it a sophisticated way to stay safe? You don't have to do anything, but answer it. And that just helps you see clearly.
Jessica (17:23)
Yeah. Also, just a reminder, our freebie for this week is the One Thing Starter Worksheet. The link is in the show notes, or you can go to chasingbrighter.com and sign up for our newsletter. It's a simple, no pressure tool to help you name the one thing you've been putting off and take one small step toward it. So check that out at chasingbrighter.com forward slash newsletter.
Kelly (17:46)
And next week we are going somewhere that might surprise you. We are talking about perfection. but in a way that you'd expect, because most women who struggle with it don't identify it as perfectionist, don't identify as perfectionists. I know I do not identify as a perfectionist,
Jessica (18:05)
Yeah.
Kelly (18:06)
but they identify as someone who has high standards. And so that reframe is the trap. And that's what we're gonna be talking about.
Jessica (18:16)
Thank you so much for tuning in. If today's episode resonated with you, we'd love if you share with a friend. you can check us out on our socials, on Instagram at Chasing Brighter, YouTube at Chasing Brighter, Facebook, TikTok, all at Chasing Brighter.
Kelly, have you ever added something to your resume, taken an extra course, or waited to share something until you had one more thing to point to, not because you needed it, but but because it made you feel safer, like the certification before launching, the once I finish this, or like a moment someone else just started with no qualifications and it worked, like it made you feel a certain way.
Kelly (00:31)
Yeah.
a lot. A lot of time I feel that way. especially now with AI coming into play and just having the certification of that and feeling like I, you know, have to have these certifications in order to get get somewhere.
Jessica (00:49)
I remember you and I talked a long time ago about you not having an MBA.
Kelly (00:56)
Yes. Yeah.
Jessica (00:58)
And feeling like for some reason, well I can't do that.
Kelly (01:00)
I had a job yeah, well I was
planning d I took the I actually took the
G Mat.
Jessica (01:10)
G R E. it's a G Matt.
Kelly (01:12)
yeah, I took the G Mat what after I graduated from high from college and I was planning to get my MBA. I was working at Honeywell at the time. And then when I moved to Chicago, at one point I was looking for another job and I remember interviewing with Leo Burnett, big ad firm at the time. And they were like, When are you getting your MBA? And
Jessica (01:34)
Yeah.
Kelly (01:35)
I was like, if you hire me, I'll get my MBA.
And I went, I ended up doing consulting and I ended up working with a bunch of guys who had their MBAs. And you know, honestly, I felt like I had a really great undergraduate degree, business degree from Notre Dame. And I don't mean to name drop, but it was a very it was before it became Mendoza School of Business.
Jessica (01:57)
Yeah.
Kelly (01:58)
I never felt inadequate, like
Jessica (02:00)
Yeah.
Kelly (02:01)
in like academically or like intelligent wise, like brain-wise, right? I never
Jessica (02:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly (02:07)
felt inadequate.
But it was like I needed that piece of paper. and so it did
Jessica (02:12)
Yeah.
Kelly (02:12)
limit me in a lot of ways for certain jobs because I didn't have that.
Jessica (02:16)
Well, because of that, them saying when you get an Earn BA then that's in your head. And so then you're thinking, when you wanna do something, yeah, totally.
Kelly (02:22)
Like, I'm not good enough. Yeah.
You know, it's funny because Wes, small tangent here. Wes has taken an AP class. We had to register for like whatever the college board AP stuff. And you had to fill out this thing, or it was like, you know, what's your ethnicity? Blah, blah. It goes in really deep, actually, about like what tribe do you belong to, blah, blah, blah. But it was like, what's your mom's name? What education does she have? And he said, professional certificate. And I was like, what does your dad have?
graduate degree and I was like and he clicked submit and I was like hold on here dad I like I have an undergrad I don't have a professional certificate and you said dad has
Jessica (03:02)
Yeah. You have a battery.
Kelly (03:04)
a graduate dad has two graduate degrees I was like no I no he doesn't and he was like well he has a degree in industrial design and a degree in MFA and I was like I have a degree too and he was like well what's yours in
Jessica (03:18)
That's so
funny. Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly (03:20)
And I was like, I have
a bachelor business. I'm like, Your dad and I both have undergraduate degrees and then your dad has a graduate degree. And he was sort of still like, Well, I don't really know. It doesn't really matter. And I was like, Yes, it does. Now people think that you don't have you have a parent that doesn't have an undergraduate degree. I just felt like you know how that like I don't know if you felt that way as a kid where you were so proud 'cause you said both of your parents had bachelor's degrees. Or like
Jessica (03:42)
Yeah. Well, I think it
it has you feeling unseen, you know?
Kelly (03:47)
Yeah. Yes, it did. I'm
and I don't think I know he doesn't mean it that way. So it was this whole interesting little thing, but I think getting back
Jessica (03:54)
Yeah.
Kelly (03:55)
to the topic at hand here, right? Which is really about feeling like you need to be credentialed. Feeling
Jessica (04:01)
Yeah, yeah.
Kelly (04:02)
like that is going to be part of associating that with achievement in something that you can get to. we are fortunate that in a lot of ways we are in the generation where
I don't know about you, but I had colleagues even in consulting. I worked with people who had University of Chicago MBAs, top MBAs. and then I worked with guys who didn't have any degree, who just, especially because I'm working in technology, there were still a lot of people who kind of worked their way up. And
Jessica (04:34)
Yeah.
Kelly (04:34)
so it's interesting because I do feel like anymore now, this credential thing, it's really easy to fall into that trap.
Jessica (04:43)
Yeah.
Kelly (04:44)
getting back to this topic at hand. Last week we talked about the I'm not ready yet as fear, dressed up as logic. and this week we want to kind of pull on that thread a little bit more because we want to talk about the credential trap and have how that's like its own thing. it's not just procrastination. it's actually kind of a specific pattern and it's easy to fall into.
Jessica (05:11)
Yeah, and just like we you were talking about, it's a woman who has more than enough to begin, but she keeps adding to the list one more thing, one more year of experience, you know, one more thing to point to so when someone questions her, she feels like she has the answer.
Kelly (05:26)
And what makes it tricky is, you know, it looks like ambition from the outside.
Jessica (05:35)
Yeah, looks like diligence, but underneath it almost always is the question, Do I have the right to be here? You know, a little bit of imposter syndrome.
Kelly (05:42)
Yes. Yeah,
for sure.
Jessica (05:47)
This is really rooted in how women are socialized. Reshma Saujani has this line. I hope I'm pronouncing her name right. Has this line that stays with me. Girls are taught to be perfect. Boys are taught to be brave. By the time we're adults, many women have internalized the idea that you have to earn your place before you take it.
Kelly (06:15)
Yeah. And you know, I know there's a lot of studies on this, but one of the ones that I found just as my research for this episode is KPMG study on women in leadership who found that 75% of female executives have reported experiencing that imposter syndrome syndrome. And one of the most common coping strategies is adding credentials, that idea of more proof, more qualifications. Because if the bar keeps moving, you can just keep running.
Jessica (06:46)
And here's the clinical piece. The bar will keep moving. There is no credential that makes you feel permanently qualified because the credential was never actually the problem. The belonging question was the problem. And a certificate cannot answer a belonging question. That, you know, cognitive behavioral therapy piece, the story you tell yourself creates your reality that I say all the time in my professional and personal life, right?
Kelly (07:13)
one of the things here, Jess, for me, so right now I am one of the thing, one of the career paths I am right now is a project manager. And one of the like cornerstones of being a project manager is being a having a PMP certificate, which is a project management professional. And it is this international institute that
has all these PMP practices. You have to take 60 hours of classroom and then you take a test. And then if you pass the test, you can get your PMP certification. And so for me, that was something that I really thought I needed to do to be a project manager. And so I went through all of that learning and I went through up to the point to take the test. And I even had the test scheduled. And then I actually got laid off from HP at the time and I moved and I changed jobs. And I never pursued it.
because I got that far and I really felt like I needed to do it. But you know what was interesting is I learned that I didn't need it. And I didn't need
Jessica (08:24)
Yeah.
Kelly (08:25)
it because I was able to really perform and get jobs done in a way that I didn't I realized that I I had the capability inside of me. I didn't need that piece of paper to prove it. And so
Jessica (08:41)
Well,
yeah.
Kelly (08:42)
I just wanted to like I wanted to make a distinction here that, you know, there's a difference between like preparation and permission seeking is, you know, they can look identical from the outside and thinking about that piece, right? Which is me thinking about needing and learning all that stuff and then having to get this like permission that I had to have this certification.
Jessica (09:04)
Years ago I was in my clinical supervisor's office and she had several certifications on the wall and I was like, what's that one? And she was like, you just pay for it. And so sometimes I think to some
Kelly (09:16)
Yeah.
Jessica (09:17)
extent, like I'm like, I'll know someone and it might be activating for like a second when they're like, PCT, I'm seven two, and you're like, what do I need to have though? And then I'm like, have that shit you're just fucking paying for.
And I think at this point in my career, I've been doing this for 21 years. And I even got a call for EMDR. And I'm not EMDR certified. It's eye movement desensitization and reprocessing. It it was created for like to help it's a brain-based intervention that helps process trauma, but now it's used for all kinds of things. And I actually trained in brain spotting instead.
And every once in a while, like if people are like, Are you training EMDR? I'll be shoot, I should do an EMDR training. But it's like what you talked about. It's like really expensive and it's like a long time. It's a it's a long time to go be certified in it. And it's very technical. And brain spotting is very free flowing. And I'm more of a free flow person. Listeners, Kelly and I had a conversation before we started recording just about her and I don't necessarily follow rules all the time.
And so it's like, I don't want to do this like rigid thing when I am already a trauma-informed therapist in the game 21 years. Like, I don't want to just be pigeonholed in this EMDR thing. but still it can sometimes trigger me. And it's like what Kelly's saying is the diff the difference there is in the function because preparation moves you towards something, but permission seeking keeps you at a safe distance. And so if it's for like approval of others and not from this intrinsic motivation.
That's the difference.
Kelly (10:59)
Yeah, so I think that when you're in it though, Jess, it's hard to tell, right,
what the difference is.
Jessica (11:06)
Yeah. Yeah.
Kelly (11:08)
So what would be some questions that could help distinguish that?
Jessica (11:12)
Yeah, like
how do you know you're permission seeking versus you're really legitimately preparing? So I think questions that I find useful are first is like, is this new knowledge that you don't have, or is this a delay? Will this actually change how I do something? second, who are you imagining will finally give you permission when you finish? Because if there's a person in your head.
you know, a parent, a mentor, a critic, you're not preparing, you're seeking approval.
Kelly (11:51)
The second one, Jess, you know, I think that is really a gut punch. this idea that there's this voice or this, you know, person
Jessica (12:06)
Yeah.
Kelly (12:07)
in your head.
Jessica (12:08)
Yeah. I think this is so interesting. This season is interesting. because these episodes are talking more about professional stuff versus personal stuff. And for whatever reason, I don't know why, but like I've never I don't know, I've never felt
less than professionally or intellectually. Right. If you were to like to say something about me personally, like my looks or that I drive terrible or I'm a terrible cook. I don't know, though though I don't, whatever, like those might really hit me hard. But like I
Kelly (12:52)
Yeah.
Jessica (12:53)
have not and also it's hard to cause I've been doing this, like I said, for 21 years, right? So it's hard to remember, you know, early Jessica. But I don't I don't feel like I've
Fault impostor syndrome, or maybe that's not recent. I mean, when I first started, it's like you're you're letting me go in a room with another person and be a therapist. Like, here, here we go. but I just think that's not like triggering for me, like getting credentials or proving to other people because I've had my own practice for a minute. And I think maybe at first I was trying to like impress people, but now I'm like, I'm not everyone's cup of tea. If you don't like me, you don't like me. I can't, I can't not be me.
Kelly (13:36)
Yeah. Well, I think that is really important to think about is going to what we're saying here, right? Is this whole idea of doing this because you are doing it for yourself versus doing it for something else. And yeah, keep
Jessica (13:55)
Yeah, you keep and and like, sorry.
Kelly (13:57)
going.
Jessica (13:58)
And what we're talking about is like keep moving the bar. So is the bar yours? Did you choose the bar? Like you weren't thanking Kelly with your program manager thing, like, my gosh, I really would love to learn a little bit more and to get some new concepts. So I'm gonna go get the certification, right? You didn't choose the bar. The bar was, my gosh, I look left, I look right, everyone has this, I need to have this, right?
Kelly (14:20)
Right. You're chasing
after this like footer at the bottom of your email or whatever it is, right? That
Jessica (14:24)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Kelly (14:26)
like you feel like that is needed. and so I think that's the real careful is like the intention. So, you know, going back to that bar, there's a Harvard business review piece that pushes back on the just fix your imposter syndrome narrative. And it makes the point that many women, especially women of color, but the bias they're anticipating isn't imagined, that there's extra proof they're gathering.
Is a rational response to a system that actually does require more of them. And that
Jessica (14:55)
Yeah.
Kelly (14:56)
is, you know, the whole idea that the bar is set different for different people is really tough. And I mean, I feel that way. I probably I work a lot in a lot of situations where I'm the only female on a call, most
Jessica (15:10)
Yeah.
Kelly (15:11)
or whatever it is in the room. And I feel that, I feel that too.
Jessica (15:16)
Yes.
and just the research like you're talking about is just there is legitimate stuff happening where women, people of color, legitimately are way, way, way overqualified and they have to be just to prove that they deserve to be in the room. And so I think what
you're talking about what we're speaking to is we know that this isn't imagined. We know that there are social pressures. And like you're saying in this Harvard Business Review piece, that it's like you can't just like fix your imposter syndrome because there are some there are research and societal,
Kelly (15:48)
There are legitimate, yeah.
Jessica (15:50)
yeah. And I think there's that's an important distinction because this isn't about us telling every woman just leap and trust, because for some
Women, the extra preparation is strategic, it's armour and it's necessary.
Kelly (16:01)
Yeah. And so I the question isn't always like stop getting more credentials. It's the why, right? Are you doing this
Jessica (16:08)
Yeah.
Kelly (16:09)
because the situation genuinely requires it?
or
Jessica (16:12)
Yeah, yeah.
Kelly (16:13)
because it's the same old story in your head that you feel like you're not enough and you need to continue to gather more credentials.
Jessica (16:24)
And both of those can be true at the same time. It's just that you need to take time and recognize that you deserve to know which one is driving.
Let's look at our brighter moves. My brighter move for this week is instead of asking, am I qualified enough? I think we can ask, am I curious enough? Am I committed enough? Do I care about this enough? Those are the things that actually carry you through. Qualifications get you in the room, but commitment keeps you there.
Kelly (17:00)
I love that. My brighter move is audit one thing that you're waiting to finish before you start something else and ask honestly, is this genuinely necessary? Or is it a sophisticated way to stay safe? You don't have to do anything, but answer it. And that just helps you see clearly.
Jessica (17:23)
Yeah. Also, just a reminder, our freebie for this week is the One Thing Starter Worksheet. The link is in the show notes, or you can go to chasingbrighter.com and sign up for our newsletter. It's a simple, no pressure tool to help you name the one thing you've been putting off and take one small step toward it. So check that out at chasingbrighter.com forward slash newsletter.
Kelly (17:46)
And next week we are going somewhere that might surprise you. We are talking about perfection. but in a way that you'd expect, because most women who struggle with it don't identify it as perfectionist, don't identify as perfectionists. I know I do not identify as a perfectionist,
Jessica (18:05)
Yeah.
Kelly (18:06)
but they identify as someone who has high standards. And so that reframe is the trap. And that's what we're gonna be talking about.
Jessica (18:16)
Thank you so much for tuning in. If today's episode resonated with you, we'd love if you share with a friend. you can check us out on our socials, on Instagram at Chasing Brighter, YouTube at Chasing Brighter, Facebook, TikTok, all at Chasing Brighter.
