Charged Conversations - Phil Goldberg - The Complex World of Climate Litigation

WEBVTT
1
00:00:00.040 --> 00:00:03.520
Welcome to Charge Conversations, where we discuss the latest energy
2
00:00:03.839 --> 00:00:07.440
and energy related topics. I'm your host, bring him account.
3
00:00:07.879 --> 00:00:11.279
On this episode, we'll be diving into climate change litigation,
4
00:00:11.960 --> 00:00:15.919
why it's happening, what it's really accomplishing, and whether or
5
00:00:15.960 --> 00:00:18.280
not it's more about the courtroom and cash than the
6
00:00:18.320 --> 00:00:31.559
climate itself. To help us unpack all of this. A
7
00:00:31.679 --> 00:00:35.079
honor to be joined today by Phil Goldberg. Phil is
8
00:00:35.119 --> 00:00:38.320
a well respected attorney and the managing partner of Washington,
9
00:00:38.399 --> 00:00:41.799
DC's office of Schuck, Hardy and Bacon, where he co
10
00:00:41.960 --> 00:00:45.759
chairs the firm's public policy practice. He also serves as
11
00:00:45.799 --> 00:00:50.759
special counsel to the Manufacturer's Accountability Project at the National
12
00:00:50.759 --> 00:00:54.840
Association of Manufacturers. He's become a leading voice on liability,
13
00:00:55.280 --> 00:01:00.920
climate strategy and the pushback against climate lawsuits. Phil, Welcome
14
00:01:00.920 --> 00:01:02.200
to Charge Conversations.
15
00:01:02.840 --> 00:01:04.640
Rigan. Thank you so much for having me. I'm really
16
00:01:04.640 --> 00:01:05.319
honored to be here.
17
00:01:05.959 --> 00:01:08.280
Well, we're honored to have you with us here today.
18
00:01:08.959 --> 00:01:11.799
And do I leave anything out of your introductions? I
19
00:01:11.840 --> 00:01:12.480
get that right.
20
00:01:13.239 --> 00:01:15.359
I'm sure if you asked my mom or my wife,
21
00:01:15.400 --> 00:01:16.920
they'll give you a few more things. But I think
22
00:01:16.959 --> 00:01:18.439
you got the highlights covered.
23
00:01:18.599 --> 00:01:22.840
So we're both lawyers. I'm a recovering lawyer, your current
24
00:01:22.920 --> 00:01:28.359
lawyer practicing, and you know, the law is fascinating, isn't it.
25
00:01:28.359 --> 00:01:30.200
It is. I mean, it's one of the things that
26
00:01:30.319 --> 00:01:33.719
is I find interesting about my job, and I'm sure
27
00:01:33.760 --> 00:01:36.359
you do as well. As it's so dynamic and you've
28
00:01:36.359 --> 00:01:39.319
got people who are trying to push the lawn ways
29
00:01:39.359 --> 00:01:41.879
it was never intended to go, and you got people
30
00:01:41.920 --> 00:01:44.400
like us saying, you know, hang on there second, you
31
00:01:44.439 --> 00:01:46.359
know this is not what was intended. And I think
32
00:01:46.439 --> 00:01:48.599
that's pretty much, you know, a summation what's going on
33
00:01:48.640 --> 00:01:51.319
with this climate litigation. You know, the idea that we're
34
00:01:51.359 --> 00:01:55.319
suing companies who are providing us energy right things that
35
00:01:55.359 --> 00:01:58.519
we need every day to literally power our lives, turn
36
00:01:58.560 --> 00:02:03.319
on our lights, run our plants, power our cars, that
37
00:02:03.319 --> 00:02:06.359
that somehow makes them liable for climate change. It just
38
00:02:06.359 --> 00:02:08.759
doesn't make sense. It's not what liability laws for, and
39
00:02:08.960 --> 00:02:10.719
that's what we're trying to explain to the courts.
40
00:02:11.280 --> 00:02:14.800
Well, that's a great place to start. And you know,
41
00:02:14.879 --> 00:02:18.599
and listening to you and some previous things you've said,
42
00:02:18.680 --> 00:02:21.439
and full disclosure, you've been on a panel with us
43
00:02:21.439 --> 00:02:26.360
at Hudson Institute before you know, you've said previously, I think,
44
00:02:26.400 --> 00:02:27.960
but don't let me put words in your mouth that
45
00:02:28.159 --> 00:02:32.360
climate lawsuits aren't really about solving climate issues. It's more
46
00:02:32.400 --> 00:02:34.479
about raising money. Is that true?
47
00:02:35.039 --> 00:02:39.319
Well, they're about trying to advance a political agenda and
48
00:02:39.439 --> 00:02:43.039
to and to make money, not really about trying to
49
00:02:43.080 --> 00:02:45.199
do anything on the climate. In fact, if you look
50
00:02:45.240 --> 00:02:48.599
at a lot of litigation in order because they know,
51
00:02:48.840 --> 00:02:52.080
if they acknowledge that this litigation is intended to regulate
52
00:02:52.280 --> 00:02:56.520
greenhouse gas emissions and regulate energy, that you know that
53
00:02:56.680 --> 00:02:59.400
the the cases would be dead on arrival. That is
54
00:02:59.400 --> 00:03:01.560
not the role of the courts, and the U. Supreme
55
00:03:01.560 --> 00:03:04.479
Court clearly said that in AP versus Connecticut in twenty eleven.
56
00:03:04.800 --> 00:03:07.639
And so they're trying to reframe and masks what the
57
00:03:07.680 --> 00:03:09.960
cases are really about. But at the end of the day,
58
00:03:10.000 --> 00:03:12.000
they're the same as AP versus Conneticut. They' trying to
59
00:03:12.000 --> 00:03:17.719
regulate impose their preferred solutions on GSG emissions, even though
60
00:03:18.039 --> 00:03:21.080
what they do, frankly is not going to affect the climate.
61
00:03:21.199 --> 00:03:23.759
It's only going to make things more expensive for people
62
00:03:23.759 --> 00:03:25.280
here in the United States. But it's not going to
63
00:03:25.319 --> 00:03:29.599
do anything with regard to energy companies are broad the
64
00:03:29.639 --> 00:03:35.199
state run energy companies, it's only going to drive energy
65
00:03:35.319 --> 00:03:38.719
energy production, and so much of what is needed offshore
66
00:03:38.759 --> 00:03:42.039
to places that are not as conscious as American companies
67
00:03:42.159 --> 00:03:46.479
or Western European countries companies are in terms of doing
68
00:03:46.560 --> 00:03:48.080
things in a way that are better for the climate
69
00:03:48.080 --> 00:03:51.199
and better for the environment. And so the litigation actually
70
00:03:51.240 --> 00:03:55.439
can have the perverse effect of making things worse, but
71
00:03:55.479 --> 00:03:58.159
that doesn't seem to stop them. I mean, that's exactly
72
00:03:58.199 --> 00:04:01.719
why these are the issues that at the heart of
73
00:04:01.759 --> 00:04:05.400
this litigation. What we should do about climate change, how
74
00:04:05.439 --> 00:04:10.759
we should handle the production energylicy, all of that needs
75
00:04:10.759 --> 00:04:13.039
to be It's a delicate balance that needs to go
76
00:04:13.159 --> 00:04:17.000
through Congress, needs to go through the federal regulatory agencies
77
00:04:17.199 --> 00:04:20.120
that can look at all of these things that to
78
00:04:20.199 --> 00:04:23.120
balance out the impact on the climate, the need and
79
00:04:23.160 --> 00:04:27.199
affordability of energy for people and families and businesses in
80
00:04:27.199 --> 00:04:30.040
this country, and then also how does that impact US
81
00:04:30.120 --> 00:04:34.079
visa vi our competitors abroad, and how this plays into
82
00:04:34.879 --> 00:04:37.680
other energy producers around the world. You can't do that
83
00:04:37.800 --> 00:04:40.240
in a court. You can't do that in a public
84
00:04:40.319 --> 00:04:42.920
musmance lawsuit or in a state Consumer Protection Act lawsuit.
85
00:04:43.480 --> 00:04:49.279
And so that's the fundamental reason why this litigation should
86
00:04:49.319 --> 00:04:51.720
not be successful, it should not go forward because it
87
00:04:52.839 --> 00:04:55.319
can't assess all the issues that are going on that
88
00:04:55.399 --> 00:04:59.959
regulators can. But you know, that's exactly why they're trying it,
89
00:05:00.079 --> 00:05:04.879
because they want somebody to make a decision about, you know,
90
00:05:05.040 --> 00:05:09.560
adding costs to you know, to cost a certain energy.
91
00:05:09.720 --> 00:05:13.560
They want to make decisions about GHG emissions without having
92
00:05:13.600 --> 00:05:17.480
to consider affordability and all these other policies that are important.
93
00:05:17.879 --> 00:05:20.000
And so they are trying to find a judge as
94
00:05:20.000 --> 00:05:22.120
we want to take that on. And so they filed
95
00:05:22.279 --> 00:05:25.959
some thirty some odd lawsuits around the country, find trying
96
00:05:25.959 --> 00:05:28.480
to find a state that allow the claims and a
97
00:05:28.600 --> 00:05:30.839
judge that's willing to take this on. And so we'll
98
00:05:30.839 --> 00:05:32.160
see how that plays out.
99
00:05:33.000 --> 00:05:35.519
So would it be fair to say, and we'll unpack
100
00:05:35.560 --> 00:05:38.600
some of this you've said, but is this I'll say,
101
00:05:38.639 --> 00:05:41.319
people just generally, so we have a group of people
102
00:05:41.480 --> 00:05:46.240
that have a certain policy agenda we could say policy, political,
103
00:05:46.279 --> 00:05:48.480
whatever word you want to put in there, and they're
104
00:05:48.519 --> 00:05:53.199
not able to achieve their ochectives through the ballot box,
105
00:05:54.199 --> 00:05:59.959
through Congress, the executive branch so you're saying they're used
106
00:06:00.000 --> 00:06:03.560
seeing the court system, the judicial branch, the third branch
107
00:06:03.600 --> 00:06:06.839
of government has a substitute for policy making.
108
00:06:07.720 --> 00:06:10.240
That's exactly right, and they're and they're doing so in
109
00:06:10.279 --> 00:06:11.800
a way to try to get around the checks and
110
00:06:11.879 --> 00:06:15.879
balances of the normal policy making branches of government.
111
00:06:16.279 --> 00:06:20.199
And you talked a little bit about cost to consumers,
112
00:06:21.040 --> 00:06:23.839
and a lot of the listeners wonder how this affects
113
00:06:23.879 --> 00:06:28.399
them directly. And we've talked before on charge conversations about
114
00:06:28.399 --> 00:06:34.360
how cost matters, and you just mentioned that lawsuits actually
115
00:06:35.120 --> 00:06:38.800
don't keep costs down, perhaps they even drive costs up
116
00:06:38.839 --> 00:06:41.800
and slow down innovation. How does that really play out
117
00:06:41.839 --> 00:06:42.720
in practice.
118
00:06:43.360 --> 00:06:46.560
Yes, it's a great question. So the purpose of this
119
00:06:46.639 --> 00:06:49.519
litigation and we've heard them say it, you know, you know,
120
00:06:49.680 --> 00:06:53.120
say in the Boulder Laws, the lawyers who are behind
121
00:06:53.120 --> 00:06:55.279
that have said part of what they're trying to do
122
00:06:55.360 --> 00:06:58.279
here is drive up the costs of energy, because they
123
00:06:58.319 --> 00:07:00.600
believe by driving up the cost of energy, people can
124
00:07:00.680 --> 00:07:03.079
afford to use less of it, and so that'll be
125
00:07:03.160 --> 00:07:07.079
better for the environment. That is their premise here. If
126
00:07:07.120 --> 00:07:11.600
we're going to if there's a policy that makes sense
127
00:07:11.879 --> 00:07:16.040
around increasing the cost of energy. If we ask Congress
128
00:07:16.319 --> 00:07:19.720
and in the presidential administration again whichever party doesn't matter,
129
00:07:19.800 --> 00:07:23.480
to make that decision. They're going to consider factors like, well,
130
00:07:23.480 --> 00:07:25.879
how much should that be, where the money get spent,
131
00:07:26.199 --> 00:07:28.680
what do we do to help people afford energy? All
132
00:07:28.720 --> 00:07:31.959
those different things to try to figure out how to
133
00:07:32.000 --> 00:07:34.040
how to effectuate that policy in a way that could
134
00:07:34.079 --> 00:07:36.279
make sense for people. Now, they haven't done that because
135
00:07:36.319 --> 00:07:38.879
they haven't because they don't think it makes sense for people,
136
00:07:39.319 --> 00:07:41.160
And which is why these you know, this loss is
137
00:07:41.199 --> 00:07:43.199
trying to do it through the courts. But the courts
138
00:07:43.240 --> 00:07:46.279
can't look at all those other factors. They can't decide, well,
139
00:07:46.279 --> 00:07:48.759
if we allow this litigation that drives up energy costs,
140
00:07:48.759 --> 00:07:50.879
what does it mean for people, you know, in their
141
00:07:50.879 --> 00:07:53.399
monthly pocketbooks? What does it mean for the ability of
142
00:07:53.639 --> 00:07:57.000
American manufacturers to compete internationally when they're being charged more
143
00:07:57.040 --> 00:07:59.720
for their energy than someone in one of these other
144
00:08:00.600 --> 00:08:02.839
So you end up with if this litigation is allowed
145
00:08:02.839 --> 00:08:04.759
to go forward as successful, You're going to end up
146
00:08:05.120 --> 00:08:09.240
with Americans spending a lot more money on their energy,
147
00:08:09.439 --> 00:08:13.839
but not any broader impact on the environment, no ability
148
00:08:13.879 --> 00:08:17.279
to actually deal with climate change or do something meaningful
149
00:08:17.360 --> 00:08:20.519
on climate. It's just going to make things more expensive
150
00:08:20.560 --> 00:08:20.879
for us.
151
00:08:21.160 --> 00:08:23.959
Gosh. I mean, we live in such an energy abundant country,
152
00:08:24.000 --> 00:08:25.879
and I was under the impression that one of our
153
00:08:27.000 --> 00:08:32.000
strategic advantages that's powered our literally powered our economy and
154
00:08:32.039 --> 00:08:34.919
that makes us such a great nation, is that we
155
00:08:35.080 --> 00:08:39.480
have affordable energy and lots of it. I just thought
156
00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:44.159
these folks wanted us to use less polluting energy. You're saying, no,
157
00:08:44.480 --> 00:08:47.399
they want us to lose less energy and take us
158
00:08:47.440 --> 00:08:52.000
back to those days of the nineteen seventies of energy scarcity.
159
00:08:52.519 --> 00:08:54.799
Yeah, I think that's probably right. I mean, you know,
160
00:08:55.039 --> 00:08:58.000
I have not seen them say, well, we'd rather use
161
00:08:58.039 --> 00:09:01.080
this energy over that energy. Mean, certainly, you know, renewable
162
00:09:01.200 --> 00:09:03.120
energy sources, I mean that they would probably support, but
163
00:09:03.200 --> 00:09:06.919
those all rely on traditional energy as a basis for
164
00:09:08.039 --> 00:09:11.759
that generation. Right, So ultimately, you know, my understanding, and
165
00:09:11.919 --> 00:09:13.519
you know it could be wrong, is that they would like,
166
00:09:14.000 --> 00:09:16.600
you know, less energy, and certainly, if you're making choices
167
00:09:16.600 --> 00:09:18.720
among energy sources, they would like you to choose the
168
00:09:18.799 --> 00:09:21.360
energy sources that they would like you to that they
169
00:09:21.360 --> 00:09:23.519
would like you to choose, Okay, and they want to
170
00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:25.919
make that decision again through the course as opposed to
171
00:09:26.200 --> 00:09:28.399
the regulatory legislative bodies, to.
172
00:09:28.480 --> 00:09:33.159
The regular way of making laws and deciding policy. And yeah,
173
00:09:33.200 --> 00:09:35.559
I guess you know. One thing that concerns me is
174
00:09:35.720 --> 00:09:38.279
when you look at the classic definition of energy security.
175
00:09:38.279 --> 00:09:39.879
This doesn't have anything to do with the lawsuit, but
176
00:09:39.919 --> 00:09:43.600
it's about available energy that's reliable and affordable. That that's
177
00:09:43.639 --> 00:09:49.200
the entire definition of energy security. And something that I
178
00:09:49.320 --> 00:09:53.919
focus on at Hudson Institute, and it's something I thought
179
00:09:53.960 --> 00:09:55.919
was universally accepted. Is that not?
180
00:09:57.080 --> 00:09:59.519
Yeah, I mean I it seems that there would be
181
00:09:59.559 --> 00:10:02.679
others that have a different perspective on that. They believe,
182
00:10:03.039 --> 00:10:04.960
you know, I don't want to say put words in
183
00:10:05.000 --> 00:10:07.519
their mouth, but that all's fair in love and war
184
00:10:07.559 --> 00:10:10.080
and climate politics, and so you know, they see this
185
00:10:10.320 --> 00:10:12.879
as and I have heard them say this on panels
186
00:10:12.879 --> 00:10:17.279
and other places that you know, this in their mind,
187
00:10:17.639 --> 00:10:19.720
if this can help, they want to do it, even
188
00:10:19.759 --> 00:10:22.360
if it's the wrong path, even if it leads to
189
00:10:22.480 --> 00:10:24.919
bad outcomes. If they think this is one more lever
190
00:10:25.000 --> 00:10:27.679
that they could pull to advance their agenda, then they're
191
00:10:27.679 --> 00:10:28.320
willing to do it.
192
00:10:28.559 --> 00:10:31.039
Does the agenda stop with climate litigation or is this
193
00:10:31.080 --> 00:10:34.600
sort of an anti capitalist theme or some other sort
194
00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:36.519
of view of how the world out of work.
195
00:10:37.200 --> 00:10:41.039
As you said, I do work with the Manufacturer's Accountability Project.
196
00:10:41.360 --> 00:10:43.919
And one of the reasons that manufacturers generally are concerned
197
00:10:43.919 --> 00:10:47.559
about this litigation is obviously the impact I would have
198
00:10:47.600 --> 00:10:51.039
on their bottom line, but also this is the kind
199
00:10:51.039 --> 00:10:54.240
of model that could be used and frankly is starting
200
00:10:54.279 --> 00:10:57.360
to be used against other types of manufacturers. So if
201
00:10:57.399 --> 00:11:00.879
there's a societal issue, you know, related to how a
202
00:11:00.960 --> 00:11:04.360
product is being used, misused, or disposed of whether or
203
00:11:04.399 --> 00:11:08.360
not it's a understood risk, whether the manufacturers have told
204
00:11:08.399 --> 00:11:12.279
people not to do something, but they wanted to say, well,
205
00:11:12.320 --> 00:11:15.279
you made the products, you need to bear the costs
206
00:11:15.360 --> 00:11:18.639
of whatever that societal issue is. So, you know, we
207
00:11:18.720 --> 00:11:22.799
had in New York, the State a g sued a
208
00:11:22.840 --> 00:11:27.639
soda manufacturer, Botlin Company for litter in Buffalo, even though
209
00:11:27.919 --> 00:11:29.519
they had nothing to do with that, but it was
210
00:11:29.519 --> 00:11:31.600
some of their you know, the bottles from some of
211
00:11:31.639 --> 00:11:35.480
their products were found and so therefore they were sued.
212
00:11:35.960 --> 00:11:38.279
Now fortunately there the court said, no, that's not the
213
00:11:38.320 --> 00:11:43.279
responsibility of the of the soda manufacturer. It's the person
214
00:11:43.320 --> 00:11:45.440
who actually throws it in the river. Throws it in,
215
00:11:45.639 --> 00:11:48.440
you know, actually does the littering. That's the person who's responsible.
216
00:11:48.799 --> 00:11:52.919
But that's the kind of litigation we're seeing now in California.
217
00:11:52.960 --> 00:11:56.840
We're seeing just the opposite. We're seeing cases being allowed
218
00:11:57.279 --> 00:12:00.919
where they're saying, well, even though you you labeled your
219
00:12:01.080 --> 00:12:06.360
bottles as recyclable, you're responsible for the failures of the
220
00:12:06.360 --> 00:12:10.879
California recycling system that is not recycling enough and is
221
00:12:10.919 --> 00:12:14.240
allowing and it is causing litter, right and so I
222
00:12:14.279 --> 00:12:17.600
mean it's again only in bizarro world does actually labeling
223
00:12:17.679 --> 00:12:21.159
your products truthfully as recyclable can lead you to being
224
00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.679
liable for bottles that are not recycled. What the California
225
00:12:24.720 --> 00:12:28.159
court sev said is allowable. I mean, the cases are pending.
226
00:12:28.159 --> 00:12:30.639
We haven't seen a result of that litigation yet. But
227
00:12:30.759 --> 00:12:33.159
on the first cut through when you know that in
228
00:12:33.159 --> 00:12:35.559
that case, when the soda company filed the motion dismiss
229
00:12:35.600 --> 00:12:38.200
and said this is crazy, the court said, no, we're
230
00:12:38.200 --> 00:12:39.840
gonna let it go through. We think we think this
231
00:12:39.879 --> 00:12:40.240
is fine.
232
00:12:41.120 --> 00:12:43.279
Really, So like if I so I drove a Tesla,
233
00:12:43.279 --> 00:12:45.480
I'm an early adopter, I've had ones. I'm not anti
234
00:12:46.799 --> 00:12:49.360
green energy at all, but under that kind of philosophy.
235
00:12:49.399 --> 00:12:52.360
If I abandoned my car in Chicago, are in La,
236
00:12:52.559 --> 00:12:55.879
then you could see Tesla because my car was a
237
00:12:55.960 --> 00:12:57.200
recycled maybe.
238
00:12:57.480 --> 00:13:00.679
Yeah. And in fact, Hyundai and Kia are facing you
239
00:13:00.720 --> 00:13:03.159
know almost you know, those kinds of lawsuits right now.
240
00:13:03.240 --> 00:13:06.679
They there was during COVID there was a video that
241
00:13:06.840 --> 00:13:10.799
went kind of viral on TikTok by the Kia boys
242
00:13:10.840 --> 00:13:14.200
they called themselves, and they gave people instructions on how
243
00:13:14.200 --> 00:13:18.039
to steal Kia cars or Hyundai cars, and so it
244
00:13:18.200 --> 00:13:20.919
led to, you know, a raft of thefts of these cars.
245
00:13:21.320 --> 00:13:24.120
And so now you have people, you know, I have
246
00:13:24.200 --> 00:13:26.960
local communities suing Hundai and ki is saying, well, we
247
00:13:27.039 --> 00:13:29.600
had extra police presence as a result of your cars
248
00:13:30.200 --> 00:13:32.919
being stolen, and so you just have to pay us
249
00:13:32.960 --> 00:13:36.120
the money. Before that, you have people who were hit
250
00:13:36.200 --> 00:13:39.600
by the stolen you know, the drivers of the stolen
251
00:13:39.679 --> 00:13:42.360
vehicles suing Hyundai and Kia is saying you owe me,
252
00:13:42.639 --> 00:13:45.440
you know, for the injuries I suffered being hit by
253
00:13:45.480 --> 00:13:48.679
this person who stole the car, all outside of the
254
00:13:48.720 --> 00:13:51.559
control obviously of what Hyundai and Kia did. Their cars,
255
00:13:51.720 --> 00:13:54.919
you know, were fine up until that video went around
256
00:13:55.120 --> 00:13:57.919
and then and you know, they've changed the you know,
257
00:13:57.960 --> 00:14:01.320
the design and all that of the the models, and
258
00:14:01.320 --> 00:14:04.440
they've offered people anti theft devices that they can add
259
00:14:04.440 --> 00:14:06.240
to their cars. They have one of these older models,
260
00:14:06.279 --> 00:14:08.879
and they've done all the right things, but yet they're
261
00:14:08.879 --> 00:14:12.240
still being sued by everybody because just because you know,
262
00:14:12.279 --> 00:14:15.799
these criminals told other criminals how to steal their cars.
263
00:14:16.159 --> 00:14:19.320
Wow, So that doesn't this go back to traditional common
264
00:14:19.399 --> 00:14:24.320
law tort law causation foreseeability, Uh, the falls graph case,
265
00:14:24.519 --> 00:14:29.480
the zone of danger, the wacking, the chain of custody,
266
00:14:29.600 --> 00:14:31.720
and I thought all that stuff was settled.
267
00:14:32.279 --> 00:14:34.159
Well, as we go back to we first started with,
268
00:14:34.240 --> 00:14:36.639
it's a very dynamic area where we all think the
269
00:14:36.720 --> 00:14:39.799
law was settled until some you know, lawyer can this
270
00:14:40.279 --> 00:14:43.000
bright idea figures out how can I make money and
271
00:14:43.200 --> 00:14:46.080
leverage litigation in a way that can drive settlements. And
272
00:14:46.120 --> 00:14:47.679
so that's what they do. They file all these big
273
00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:50.679
lawsuits and hope the companies are willing to abandon either
274
00:14:50.759 --> 00:14:54.440
Meritori's defenses or that the judge will allow the case
275
00:14:54.519 --> 00:14:56.799
to go forward, in which case maybe they can get
276
00:14:56.840 --> 00:14:59.519
a verdict. And you know, and the cost of these
277
00:14:59.559 --> 00:15:00.399
virtuous go on up.
278
00:15:00.320 --> 00:15:02.440
And up and up, you know, so speaking about law,
279
00:15:02.519 --> 00:15:06.159
and you know, just uh, you know, maybe somebody would say, well,
280
00:15:06.159 --> 00:15:08.600
wait a minute, your project's back by industry, and that
281
00:15:08.639 --> 00:15:12.759
makes you that makes some people skeptical. But uh, you know,
282
00:15:12.759 --> 00:15:15.879
I know you a little bit, and you're kind of
283
00:15:15.919 --> 00:15:18.519
a left of center, aren't you. You're not exactly a
284
00:15:18.559 --> 00:15:20.799
Trump maga guy last time I checked.
285
00:15:21.320 --> 00:15:23.519
Yeah, No, you're right. I worked on the hill for
286
00:15:23.840 --> 00:15:27.879
three different Democrats and worked for presidential you know, Democratic
287
00:15:27.879 --> 00:15:31.320
presidential campaigns in my life. And uh, but when you
288
00:15:31.320 --> 00:15:34.360
look at the policies, politic shouldn't matter, right, when you
289
00:15:34.399 --> 00:15:37.480
look at the law, it's not about you know what,
290
00:15:37.679 --> 00:15:40.000
you know, what your your politics are, it's you follow
291
00:15:40.039 --> 00:15:41.960
the law. You're supposed to do the right thing. And
292
00:15:42.039 --> 00:15:45.320
here the law seems pretty clear this isn't about what
293
00:15:45.399 --> 00:15:47.519
we want to do on climate. Right. If I do
294
00:15:47.639 --> 00:15:50.480
believe that we need to do something meaningful to address
295
00:15:50.519 --> 00:15:52.840
the climate, that doesn't mean that I think this is
296
00:15:52.879 --> 00:15:54.679
a proper use in the legal system. And I serially
297
00:15:54.759 --> 00:15:56.879
don't think that that this is going to do anything
298
00:15:57.080 --> 00:15:59.480
to affect the climate in a meaningful way. So it
299
00:15:59.519 --> 00:16:02.080
becomes a distraction for those of us who actually want
300
00:16:02.080 --> 00:16:03.200
to see something get done.
301
00:16:03.799 --> 00:16:06.480
Well, you talked about how it doesn't really affect climate.
302
00:16:06.960 --> 00:16:09.879
You know, I was always under the impression that, well,
303
00:16:09.919 --> 00:16:13.960
if you want to talk about climate, and you want
304
00:16:14.000 --> 00:16:18.279
to talk about a clean climate, we're better off producing
305
00:16:18.440 --> 00:16:22.240
things in this country where we have an EPA, where
306
00:16:22.279 --> 00:16:27.480
we have very strict standandards. Isn't this a global situation
307
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:31.399
where if you put China and India together, they're co
308
00:16:31.720 --> 00:16:36.879
two emissions, their other emissions have outgrown the western world
309
00:16:36.960 --> 00:16:40.639
of Europe, in the US already combined with their emissions.
310
00:16:41.440 --> 00:16:44.039
And there's sort of this notion that, well, if we
311
00:16:44.120 --> 00:16:46.879
just had no emissions here, the world would be fine.
312
00:16:46.919 --> 00:16:49.360
But that's kind of silly, right, We don't live in
313
00:16:49.360 --> 00:16:50.440
a bubble, That's right.
314
00:16:50.600 --> 00:16:52.080
There was an article a couple of years ago in
315
00:16:52.080 --> 00:16:53.720
New York Times that kind of pointed this out. It
316
00:16:53.799 --> 00:16:57.480
said that if you know, American energy companies are already
317
00:16:57.559 --> 00:17:01.240
reducing their use of certain energy sources, oil, gas, what
318
00:17:01.399 --> 00:17:05.599
have you. And as a result, OPEK is already starting
319
00:17:05.599 --> 00:17:07.640
to fill those gaps. And you know, the article said,
320
00:17:07.640 --> 00:17:09.599
doesn't mean we're going to have any less oil in
321
00:17:09.640 --> 00:17:11.559
the world. It just means more of it's going to
322
00:17:11.599 --> 00:17:15.079
be controlled by foreign countries and by OPEK, And so
323
00:17:15.200 --> 00:17:17.680
they said, you know, at certain whatever date they laid
324
00:17:17.720 --> 00:17:20.440
out that you know, OPEK will go up from whatever
325
00:17:20.480 --> 00:17:23.519
fifty something percent of the international market to over seventy
326
00:17:23.559 --> 00:17:26.720
percent of the international market. That's not good for the environment.
327
00:17:26.799 --> 00:17:28.880
That's not good for you know, for people who want
328
00:17:28.920 --> 00:17:31.839
to deal with climate change, because it's moving things out
329
00:17:31.839 --> 00:17:35.720
of as you said, you know, production in facilities that
330
00:17:35.799 --> 00:17:40.240
are governed under American law, where we care about those things,
331
00:17:40.240 --> 00:17:42.960
where we try to do things in ways that minimize releases,
332
00:17:43.000 --> 00:17:46.200
that minimize the impact on the environment, and so and
333
00:17:46.319 --> 00:17:48.480
over there, they just don't care, and it's just not
334
00:17:48.799 --> 00:17:52.640
as much of a factor. And so to make all
335
00:17:52.680 --> 00:17:57.359
of us pay more for our energy by burdening American
336
00:17:57.440 --> 00:17:59.960
and European energy companies those are who provide us energy
337
00:18:00.559 --> 00:18:03.400
with the cost of climate change here in the United States,
338
00:18:03.400 --> 00:18:06.000
but not putting that burden on any of these other
339
00:18:06.599 --> 00:18:12.119
state owned energy companies, then we're really we're paying more,
340
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:14.799
but we're not getting a game, and we're not doing
341
00:18:14.839 --> 00:18:17.279
anything meaningful on the environment. So it really makes no sense.
342
00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:19.359
I mean, if you look at it in that way,
343
00:18:20.279 --> 00:18:23.599
this litigation only increases the costs, but it doesn't actually
344
00:18:23.599 --> 00:18:26.720
do something meaningful on climate change, and that makes no sense.
345
00:18:26.759 --> 00:18:27.559
It makes no sense to me.
346
00:18:28.039 --> 00:18:30.039
Yeah, that's a very good point, and kind of keeping
347
00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:33.359
on that thing. Would it be tough in these cases
348
00:18:33.440 --> 00:18:36.400
to even prove that a company's action is directly causing
349
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:39.720
damage to the city or state. I mean, how can
350
00:18:39.759 --> 00:18:43.720
you tell whether that CO two came from my city
351
00:18:43.839 --> 00:18:46.359
or my state or a lot of us live in
352
00:18:46.359 --> 00:18:49.400
a tri state area where have multiple states. I mean,
353
00:18:49.559 --> 00:18:51.480
I don't know where does this stuff even come from?
354
00:18:51.480 --> 00:18:54.880
And the cities themselves use the products. Look at every
355
00:18:54.920 --> 00:18:59.680
police car, fire truck, municipal vehicle. I'm in my mind
356
00:18:59.720 --> 00:19:00.519
missing something.
357
00:19:01.400 --> 00:19:03.240
No, you're not, and in fact, you know. One of
358
00:19:03.240 --> 00:19:06.680
the key legal questions in this litigation right now is
359
00:19:07.240 --> 00:19:11.000
the case from Boulder, Colorado is pending in the Supreme Court,
360
00:19:11.039 --> 00:19:13.400
is whether the court's going to grant review of the case.
361
00:19:13.440 --> 00:19:15.720
They have not yet, so we're hoping they will. But
362
00:19:16.160 --> 00:19:21.200
what Boulder's trying to say is whatever actions that took
363
00:19:21.240 --> 00:19:25.519
place around the world related to the production, promotion, and
364
00:19:25.640 --> 00:19:30.240
sale of the energy sources that they're suing over violated
365
00:19:30.720 --> 00:19:34.079
Colorado law and mean such the liability under Colorado law.
366
00:19:34.079 --> 00:19:36.480
Well, Colorado law does not apply to actions that took
367
00:19:36.480 --> 00:19:39.799
place outside of Colorado, So they're trying to use Colorado
368
00:19:39.880 --> 00:19:43.079
law to govern and impose liability not just things that
369
00:19:43.119 --> 00:19:44.880
took place in other states, but things that took place
370
00:19:45.000 --> 00:19:45.960
entirely in other countries.
371
00:19:46.240 --> 00:19:49.200
That's that no state law has that reach. And that's
372
00:19:49.240 --> 00:19:51.359
what the Second Circuit said when New York City brought
373
00:19:51.359 --> 00:19:53.440
a similar lawsuit a few years ago. The Use courtpeals
374
00:19:53.440 --> 00:19:56.319
for the Second Circuit said that this kind of expansive
375
00:19:57.240 --> 00:20:01.000
concept can't be governed by by state law. It's why
376
00:20:01.079 --> 00:20:05.200
in traditional pollution cases it's not the you have to
377
00:20:05.319 --> 00:20:08.000
litigate under the rules of the source state. So if
378
00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:12.279
Colorado is saying that there's the pollution that happened in
379
00:20:12.839 --> 00:20:15.599
Nebraska is affecting us, you have to sue under Nebraska
380
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:20.440
law because that's what governs the source. That's basic law.
381
00:20:20.480 --> 00:20:23.359
That's been the law in the United States forever, and
382
00:20:23.559 --> 00:20:26.160
these cases are trying to get around all that and
383
00:20:26.519 --> 00:20:29.440
get around so that any kind of any kind of
384
00:20:29.519 --> 00:20:32.440
understanding of how the laws worked in this area for decades.
385
00:20:33.119 --> 00:20:35.680
Do you think this sort of behavior by the people
386
00:20:35.720 --> 00:20:39.359
bringing these lawsuits so that the way they frame things
387
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:45.200
up that that actually undermines trust in the legal system.
388
00:20:45.599 --> 00:20:48.480
I think it does. I mean, because you know, the
389
00:20:48.720 --> 00:20:52.000
people who are doing this have said, you know, publicly,
390
00:20:52.039 --> 00:20:55.920
that they look at the politics of the communities that
391
00:20:55.960 --> 00:20:59.519
they go to to, you know, to get when they're
392
00:20:59.519 --> 00:21:02.200
when they're trying recruit plaintiffs, recruit local governments to bring
393
00:21:02.240 --> 00:21:05.720
these cases. Obviously they're they're looking at the legal environment
394
00:21:06.240 --> 00:21:09.400
of the states where the cases are being brought. For example,
395
00:21:09.720 --> 00:21:12.599
they there's a case in Charleston, South Carolina, that was
396
00:21:12.640 --> 00:21:16.680
brought a couple of years ago. The mayor switched had
397
00:21:16.839 --> 00:21:19.359
you know, the the mayors no longer that from there
398
00:21:19.400 --> 00:21:21.400
is no longer the same now. The current mayor is
399
00:21:21.440 --> 00:21:25.559
not as gung ho about this litigation. The courts threw
400
00:21:25.599 --> 00:21:29.400
the case out, and the people behind the litigation decided
401
00:21:29.519 --> 00:21:33.200
just recently within the last week not to appeal that
402
00:21:33.480 --> 00:21:36.079
to the you know, to the South Carolina appellate courts
403
00:21:36.079 --> 00:21:38.240
and ultimately we'll go to the South Carolina Supreme Court.
404
00:21:38.359 --> 00:21:41.039
I think they understand that if they pursued that they
405
00:21:41.079 --> 00:21:44.440
would probably lose at the South Carolina Supreme Court and
406
00:21:44.480 --> 00:21:47.039
that would create it, you know, an even greater split
407
00:21:47.279 --> 00:21:50.720
in among the states that the Supreme Court would eventually
408
00:21:50.799 --> 00:21:53.440
have to take this. You know, this case, we think
409
00:21:53.480 --> 00:21:55.240
the Supreme Court states the case. Now, we've got the
410
00:21:55.920 --> 00:21:59.720
Boulder cases pending before the court. You have thirty sei
411
00:21:59.839 --> 00:22:03.279
case is going on around the country. You have several
412
00:22:04.000 --> 00:22:06.319
cases where the courts, the state court has said sure,
413
00:22:06.319 --> 00:22:09.200
will allow this litigation to go forward. You've got probably
414
00:22:09.440 --> 00:22:12.839
twice as many courts saying no, like this is not
415
00:22:13.400 --> 00:22:17.200
an appropriate use of state liability law. And we need
416
00:22:17.240 --> 00:22:19.599
one answer we need and the only place to get
417
00:22:19.599 --> 00:22:22.440
that one answer is the US Supreme Court. So at
418
00:22:22.440 --> 00:22:24.160
this point we really do need the US Preme Court
419
00:22:24.240 --> 00:22:27.200
to take this case and take these issues and lay
420
00:22:27.240 --> 00:22:31.480
down the rules of the road, explain what states law
421
00:22:32.000 --> 00:22:33.920
we know, what state law can reach, what they can't reach.
422
00:22:34.400 --> 00:22:37.200
How you know, there's there's some nuanced legal issues here
423
00:22:37.240 --> 00:22:40.400
dealing with jurisdiction of what's you know, federal common law
424
00:22:40.480 --> 00:22:43.519
or federal law or the state law. If they can
425
00:22:43.559 --> 00:22:45.160
just lay down the rules of the road for that,
426
00:22:45.519 --> 00:22:47.880
then these the states and the and the and the
427
00:22:47.880 --> 00:22:50.400
federal courts can process that and figure out what to
428
00:22:50.440 --> 00:22:53.119
deal with this litigation. But right now, what we're saying
429
00:22:53.200 --> 00:22:55.559
is you know, it's probably like a legal laboratory out
430
00:22:55.599 --> 00:22:57.480
there that you know that the people behind this litigation,
431
00:22:57.519 --> 00:22:59.640
they're trying all stories of different things see if anything
432
00:22:59.680 --> 00:23:03.720
will and the defense, you know, the companies and and
433
00:23:03.799 --> 00:23:06.960
you know, and those like us who are who don't
434
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:10.039
agree with this litigation are trying to explain why. You know,
435
00:23:10.079 --> 00:23:11.799
it's like playing wackaball, right, you're trying to hit each
436
00:23:11.799 --> 00:23:13.519
one of those down. And if you can just have
437
00:23:13.559 --> 00:23:15.319
a bit, you've got have one set of rules that
438
00:23:15.359 --> 00:23:18.400
applies across the board that would be really helpful. And
439
00:23:18.440 --> 00:23:19.000
that's what we're asking.
440
00:23:20.279 --> 00:23:22.839
It's almost you talked about Lachamo. It's uh. I mean
441
00:23:22.920 --> 00:23:25.440
ninety percent, ninety five percent could fail, but if five
442
00:23:25.480 --> 00:23:27.880
percent of them succeed, and there's time and money, right,
443
00:23:27.920 --> 00:23:30.799
there's a lot of time, money, and energy that goes
444
00:23:30.880 --> 00:23:34.400
into all this, which ultimately I presume gets passed to
445
00:23:34.480 --> 00:23:37.319
consumers at some point because there's no money tree out
446
00:23:37.319 --> 00:23:40.000
there that or I'd have one, and I wouldn't tell
447
00:23:40.000 --> 00:23:40.960
you about it if I did.
448
00:23:41.039 --> 00:23:44.079
But I'm going to find out where you live and
449
00:23:44.119 --> 00:23:44.759
I'm going to go pluck.
450
00:23:47.359 --> 00:23:49.880
I assure you there's there's nothing that exciting out there.
451
00:23:49.920 --> 00:23:52.680
But uh yeah, so you know you mentioned Boulder, Are
452
00:23:52.680 --> 00:23:55.359
there any other What does the Supreme Court said, if
453
00:23:55.400 --> 00:23:58.480
anything yet? And we know that as lawyers, the Supreme
454
00:23:58.519 --> 00:24:02.160
Court does not like to get involved. They're very conscientious
455
00:24:02.279 --> 00:24:04.960
about the president that they set. They tried to decide
456
00:24:04.960 --> 00:24:09.720
things on narrow issues so as to not make broad decisions.
457
00:24:09.720 --> 00:24:13.279
But where does all that stand then and next year
458
00:24:13.359 --> 00:24:15.759
or two or who knows, or what do you think.
459
00:24:16.000 --> 00:24:19.759
If they take the Boulder case. They asked Boulder to
460
00:24:19.839 --> 00:24:23.160
respond to the petition. You know, the current administration has
461
00:24:23.200 --> 00:24:26.039
filed a brief saying that they should hear the case,
462
00:24:26.079 --> 00:24:28.480
and they don't like this litigation, even that in the
463
00:24:28.599 --> 00:24:35.079
previous presidential administration, the previous time when the Honolulu case
464
00:24:35.160 --> 00:24:37.119
came up to you know, there's also a petition for
465
00:24:37.160 --> 00:24:39.799
asking the Supreme Court to hear very similar case brought
466
00:24:39.799 --> 00:24:42.599
by the City of Honolulu. The Solicitor General under the
467
00:24:42.599 --> 00:24:47.160
Biden administration acknowledged some of the legal shortcomings with this
468
00:24:47.200 --> 00:24:49.480
litigation that you can only sue for things that happened
469
00:24:49.519 --> 00:24:51.200
in your state, you can't sue for things happen in
470
00:24:51.240 --> 00:24:53.400
other states. But they said this is just not the
471
00:24:53.480 --> 00:24:56.440
right time to hear this litigation, that they should allow
472
00:24:56.480 --> 00:25:00.440
it to percolate around the states for longer and out,
473
00:25:00.960 --> 00:25:03.359
you know, and and then see and see what happens.
474
00:25:04.480 --> 00:25:07.319
And and I can appreciate that that is often how
475
00:25:07.359 --> 00:25:09.799
things work. But we have a split in authority right
476
00:25:09.839 --> 00:25:13.559
now that we and you know, the people who are
477
00:25:13.599 --> 00:25:16.400
who are behind this litigation, they just want to file cases.
478
00:25:16.480 --> 00:25:21.079
I mean, they see value in the you know, the
479
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:23.480
media attention and all the things that go along with
480
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:26.799
filing these lawsuits. And they feel like it creates pressure
481
00:25:26.839 --> 00:25:29.240
on the system and maybe they can get some you know,
482
00:25:29.359 --> 00:25:34.359
policy victory in you know, in legislature since because of
483
00:25:34.359 --> 00:25:38.160
these lawsuits and whatever it might be. And so having
484
00:25:38.200 --> 00:25:41.079
these cases kind of proliferate and percolate in all these
485
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:43.599
different states, at some point it's a waste of judicial
486
00:25:43.640 --> 00:25:46.319
resources and as you say, costs that ultimately get borne
487
00:25:46.319 --> 00:25:50.160
by by consumers. That doesn't need to happen. The Supreme
488
00:25:50.160 --> 00:25:51.880
Court could just come in now and lay down the
489
00:25:51.960 --> 00:25:52.559
rules of the road.
490
00:25:53.079 --> 00:25:55.119
And is there a split in federal circuits that would
491
00:25:55.160 --> 00:25:57.720
give something for the Supreme Court to jump onto. We
492
00:25:58.000 --> 00:26:00.720
have a first impression, and you've got split among the
493
00:26:00.720 --> 00:26:03.359
circuits or you've got to split.
494
00:26:03.480 --> 00:26:05.559
It's a split. The U. S Court Appeals for the
495
00:26:05.599 --> 00:26:09.160
Second Circuit said no to these cases. You've got state
496
00:26:09.240 --> 00:26:14.759
courts in New Jersey, in Maryland and Delaware, h and
497
00:26:14.880 --> 00:26:17.599
a couple other places that have said no to these lawsuits.
498
00:26:17.640 --> 00:26:20.160
And you've had a few the state supreme courts in
499
00:26:20.799 --> 00:26:24.200
Colorado and Hawaii have said yes to these lawsuits. And
500
00:26:24.240 --> 00:26:26.400
you have a couple other courts like in I think
501
00:26:26.480 --> 00:26:30.039
Minnesota and DC that have said yes. And so there
502
00:26:30.160 --> 00:26:32.680
is a split. There is a split of you know
503
00:26:32.839 --> 00:26:36.559
of courts where the cases have ended ended up, you
504
00:26:36.559 --> 00:26:38.960
know in state spring courts or in the US Quarter
505
00:26:39.000 --> 00:26:42.000
Appeals for the Second Circuit that are It's a very
506
00:26:42.119 --> 00:26:44.279
real split. I mean, in fact, if you when you
507
00:26:44.319 --> 00:26:47.480
look at the opinions in the Colorado Spring Court, you
508
00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:50.000
look at the opinion in uh in the Hawaii Spring Court,
509
00:26:50.039 --> 00:26:52.799
they specifically say we disagree with the US Court Appeals
510
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:55.160
for the Second Circuit and so and then they lay
511
00:26:55.160 --> 00:26:57.200
out why they are allowing the cases to go forward.
512
00:26:57.359 --> 00:27:00.839
So there is a real, real and and deep split
513
00:27:01.079 --> 00:27:04.480
that is occurring. And again I don't see the need
514
00:27:04.759 --> 00:27:07.839
to have this split go more you know, with more
515
00:27:07.880 --> 00:27:10.200
cases kind of lining up on either side, it's time.
516
00:27:10.279 --> 00:27:11.519
It's time for the court to step in.
517
00:27:11.799 --> 00:27:14.759
Well, and finally, here let's flip the question. If these
518
00:27:14.839 --> 00:27:18.880
lawsuits go away, though, what are we risk losing? Because
519
00:27:18.880 --> 00:27:21.680
a lot of time with point of lawsuits thinking of products,
520
00:27:21.720 --> 00:27:24.680
liability or other things, they do a service, right, They
521
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:29.079
do a service of raining things in. Sometimes is there
522
00:27:29.119 --> 00:27:32.240
a chance that companies end up with too little accountability?
523
00:27:33.240 --> 00:27:35.279
I don't think so. I mean, this is not a
524
00:27:35.319 --> 00:27:38.240
situation of who knew what when? This is a situation
525
00:27:38.319 --> 00:27:40.759
of we all understand that the use of certain energy
526
00:27:40.839 --> 00:27:45.039
products is contributing to greenhouse gas admissions and the ultimately
527
00:27:45.039 --> 00:27:48.400
to climate change. We all understand that, and that has
528
00:27:48.440 --> 00:27:50.359
been and we've all understood that for a long time,
529
00:27:51.000 --> 00:27:54.359
and we continue to try to develop policies to mitigate
530
00:27:54.359 --> 00:27:58.759
that impact while continuing to allow for the generation of
531
00:27:58.839 --> 00:28:02.000
certain energy so that we can continue to power the
532
00:28:02.039 --> 00:28:04.920
world as we would say. So that debate of how
533
00:28:04.920 --> 00:28:08.359
we keep doing that belongs in the the regulatory and
534
00:28:08.400 --> 00:28:12.480
the legislative bodies that would continue whether or without this litigation.
535
00:28:13.039 --> 00:28:17.519
And so there there's no downside to this litigation being dismissed.
536
00:28:17.880 --> 00:28:19.720
In fact, it would only be The upside is that
537
00:28:19.880 --> 00:28:22.839
it would actually focus people on the right bodies of
538
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:26.559
government and to push for answers that are going to
539
00:28:26.759 --> 00:28:29.200
you know, truly balance and affect what we want to
540
00:28:29.200 --> 00:28:31.720
get done in this world. And I think that and
541
00:28:31.759 --> 00:28:33.839
I think that would be important as.
542
00:28:33.680 --> 00:28:36.440
We're reaching the end of our time. Anything I missed
543
00:28:36.440 --> 00:28:37.519
that you'd like to say?
544
00:28:38.039 --> 00:28:40.920
No, I mean, I'd really appreciate, you know, the being
545
00:28:40.920 --> 00:28:42.519
on a panel with you as you indicated at the
546
00:28:42.559 --> 00:28:45.680
Hudson Institute and being on your podcast today. You've been
547
00:28:45.920 --> 00:28:48.599
a great voice, you know for these kinds of common
548
00:28:48.640 --> 00:28:52.400
sense policies and UH and and providing good forum for
549
00:28:52.440 --> 00:28:54.440
these kinds of discussions. So I really appreciate that and
550
00:28:54.480 --> 00:28:56.519
thank you for it absolutely.
551
00:28:57.160 --> 00:29:00.400
And you know, before we wrap up for the we
552
00:29:00.440 --> 00:29:02.680
want to hear from you too. What are your thoughts
553
00:29:03.440 --> 00:29:09.279
on the future climate policy? What about pragmatism? What about costs?
554
00:29:09.440 --> 00:29:12.680
What about more or less energy? Where do we need
555
00:29:12.720 --> 00:29:17.079
to be Please email us anytime at Charge Conversations at
556
00:29:17.359 --> 00:29:20.160
bamaccount dot com or you can find me at bam
557
00:29:20.200 --> 00:29:24.720
account on x We read every message and value your perspectives.
558
00:29:25.480 --> 00:29:29.240
You've been listening to Charge Conversations Joe Strecker Production. If
559
00:29:29.240 --> 00:29:31.240
you like what you've been listening to, please hit that
560
00:29:31.279 --> 00:29:34.599
subscribe button. I'm your host, Brighan mccount, and I'll see
561
00:29:34.599 --> 00:29:37.240
you next time when we unpack the Paris Climate Change
562
00:29:37.240 --> 00:29:41.200
Agreement and why it is or maybe isn't working right
563
00:29:41.240 --> 00:29:43.960
here on Charge Conversations. I'll see you next time.