[00:00:00] Vanessa I: Welcome to the Season 4 of the Career Transition Podcast. In this season, we explore the impact of the future of work on professionals.
[00:00:14] Vanessa T: This episode with Dr. Wendy Tan is all about learning agility. We've been admirers of Wendy's work since her first book, Wholeness in a Disruptive World. Now, she has launched her second book, Learning Agility, Relearn, Reskill, Reinvent.
[00:00:30] Vanessa I: Wendy shares with us a valuable insight from her five years of research on the topic, what do the top 20 percent of agile learners do? She summarizes a complex topic in four key learnings we must all be aware of and she calls them the four P's, P for purpose of why we are learning, P for process of how we are learning, P for playground, learning environment, and P for be proactive.
[00:00:56] Vanessa T: We hope that you'll gain some valuable insights from this episode.
[00:01:04] Welcome everyone to the next episode of the Career Transitions podcast, the podcast where we explore what it takes to successfully navigate through career transitions, no matter which stage of life or career you're at.
[00:01:17] Vanessa I: Today we are very excited to welcome to our show Dr. Wendy Tan, entrepreneur, author and speaker.
[00:01:23] Wendy is the author of two books, the first one called Wholeness in a Disruptive World and a newly launched book, Learning Agility, Relearn, Reskill, Reinvent. Wendy, welcome back to the show.
[00:01:37] Wendy T: Hi ladies, I'm very happy to be back here and be chatting with you both again.
[00:01:41] Vanessa T: Wendy, welcome back. You are, in fact, one of our very inspiring guests from season one, and we're so glad to have you back on our show.
[00:01:50] This time, you're launching your second book, Learning Agility. And in fact, your book is now the number one bestseller list for psychology research and educational theory research on Amazon. So congratulations on this great accomplishment.
[00:02:06] Wendy T: Thank you so much. I'm so excited and honestly, really grateful that when I put out a post, I intended to launch the book two weeks later.
[00:02:16] But when I put out the post, everybody was very, very supportive. And then I thought, Hey, you know, the Amazon link is held already. Why not just share it with everybody? So I was so amazed by the outpour of support and interest, curiosity about the book. Perhaps it's the timing of the book and in today's world.
[00:02:35] And that's why the relevance of this topic, I think led it to be number one on Amazon, which I'm really thankful for. To be honest, this journey started about five years ago and we had no idea about AI and everything. But we already knew that machines are learning faster and smarter. Then it led me to think, what about us human beings?
[00:02:56] You know, the way we learn, have we really thought about the way we are learning? So my curiosity led me to this PhD journey to find out the answer to this question about how are we learning? How can we change the way or improve the way we learn? If machines are having a step change, right, and always learning, then what about us human beings?
[00:03:19] The interviews were really fun and exciting. A bit like you ladies doing the podcast, like learning in that journey and having such stimulating ideas. So with all of that, then subsequently identifying the top agile learner and the people in the average, people in the bottom, so in that way, by having a way to quantify learning agility, we could look at these top agile learners and compare it to like, what do they do differently?
[00:03:46] So this whole journey has been very stimulating, not just from an intellectual world perspective, the PhD perspective, but also a mirror to my own journey as I make the transition from being a consultant, a practitioner to being an entrepreneur. To work on the business rather than in the business and the kinds of shifts that I needed to make in the way I think.
[00:04:12] And it was a bit crazy doing it in parallel with the academic pursuit first and the entrepreneurial pursuit.
[00:04:18] Vanessa I: Yeah, I can imagine how many hours you needed in one day to do all the things you did, actually. So congratulations once again for this incredible achievement, uh writing one book is already such a hard thing to do, and now you have two under your name.
[00:04:33] So this is fantastic. So one of the things we wanted to ask you, Wendy, is around the research we are doing in this area. season around the future of work. We recently have found out through the McKinsey Global Institute that across eight major economies in the world, we anticipate that one in 16 workers may have to switch occupation by 2030.
[00:04:55] Increasingly professional need to be agile with their career. So do share with us, what does your research tell us about learning agility? What do agile learner do differently?
[00:05:06] Wendy T: So there are these four P's that Agile learners do differently. The first P is about purpose. There is a clear purpose that we link learning to our purpose.
[00:05:16] And that gives us the motivation when we are busy, when we are tired, to continue learning. The second P is about process. Agile learners are strong in what we call meta learning, the ability to stand back to reflect about how we are learning so that we can improve our learning process. And the third P is really about playground, right?
[00:05:39] That we create a learning rich playground for ourselves. Whenever we're learning a new skill to have this opportunity to apply, to get feedback quickly. So that this playground supports our learning. And the fourth P is simply proactive. Being proactive to take action, to take responsibility for our learning.
[00:05:59] So these are the four Ps that Agile learners do differently. So the first one is about learning motivation and about linking learning to purpose. What is it that leads us to stay committed, to stay consistent, just like you ladies putting weekends into these podcasts, right? In learning a lot in that process.
[00:06:20] And you talk about you putting something out that is useful for the community. So that sense of purpose fuels the learning. That's a number one factor in what Agile learners do differently, that the learning is connected to their sense of purpose. The second factor that I think is really important is what we call steering our learning process.
[00:06:41] What I found from this research is that if somebody is continuing in their domain, if you are a HR professional and you continue as a HR professional for a good part of your career without having to move or change very much, then probably you are making incremental growth in your learning. So you're learning more and more about HR.
[00:07:02] But if you were to shift from, say, to a different area, HR to HR analytics, or predictive HR, using these AI tools, then we have to learn new skills. And that's where we really need to steer our learning process, to have the range of learning strategies. To help us learn effectively, efficiently in the limited time that we have.
[00:07:26] So I think the second one is really about agile learners, having a range of learning strategies, and also what we call this high meta learning approach. That's the ability to stand back and to look at what do we need to learn? How do we learn? Who can help us? How are we coming along in this learning process?
[00:07:47] And what can I do to improve?
[00:07:49] Vanessa I: I think this is also what we are observing in our companies, in our organization, you know, especially the concept of meta learning. I mean, which is what I understand, if I understand it correctly, is the ability for us to take an overview of what we are doing as learners and to have the big picture of our learning.
[00:08:07] And I think it's related to meta consciousness. Uh, this part of metaconsciousness and the concept of meta learning, how do you identify it with your groups of learners? What is exactly giving you the insight about their ability to look at the big picture?
[00:08:23] Wendy T: That's a great question. Because when I was interviewing the range of learners, asking people what do they do to learn.
[00:08:31] So there are two very different learning approach. For example, I need to learn data analytics. And then they attend a course, and then they might try to learn something about it. It's kind of like a stuttering train. It starts, it stops, it starts, it stops. So it's not continuous. The learner in this process becomes distracted.
[00:08:52] You know, we're all busy working professionals, like not having time is a number one obstacle that people report in learning. So in this case, this person did not have that metacognitive perspective to take a step back on their learning. Whereas another person who is among the top 20 percent of Agile learners, she was learning coaching and she is able to naturally, subconsciously ask herself these questions like, why is learning coaching important for me?
[00:09:23] For her, she is somebody who is very task oriented. She's really good in problem solving. But as she progressed in the organization, she realized that she cannot keep solving problems for her ever increasing number of staff under her. She realizes that she needs to scale her impact as a manager and coach them to be problem solvers themselves.
[00:09:46] In this way, she had that strong purpose for learning. She was also a recipient of coaching. She realizes the impact of it. She asked herself questions like, what do I do to pick up the skill? Who are the role models? How can I get feedback quickly? How am I progressing in my learning of coaching skills?
[00:10:06] This metacognitive approach then led her to not just attend a workshop, but she quickly applied the skills. Got feedback. She was very intentional on getting feedback from people. She then asked herself, okay, who are the role models? There's this particular senior leader who is natural. People gravitate to her.
[00:10:27] People are comfortable with her. She reached out to this role model and asked her, you know, what led you to be a very good coach? What is it that you do differently? She realized that there are three levels. The first level is just learning the knowledge, the framework, the content. These things we can easily get from books and from online learning resources.
[00:10:49] The second level in learning is applying our knowledge and framework differently to different people, to different situations. And then the third level that I've discovered in this process is having that finesse, having that embodiment. And through interviewing this role model, she realizes that the finesse in coaching is really about empathy.
[00:11:12] And so by asking herself this question, This manager was able to steer her own learning across these three levels.
[00:11:21] Vanessa T: Wendy, I, what you said really resonated with me in terms of how the top 20 percent of agile learners are individuals who don't just sit on that knowledge, but are proactive in being able to translate that knowledge, apply it and adapting it.
[00:11:38] To the right situations and to apply different ways to apply that knowledge. But also being able to embody it with empathy and finesse. I thought that was a great way of encapsulating how some of the top learners out there really learn. So through your research, can you tell us what your research tells us about whether or not learning agility can be taught?
[00:12:00] I'm always wondering, don't people just learn naturally?
[00:12:03] Wendy T: After seeing a whole range of people, I realized that actually we all learn differently. While we can all learn in a sense that we can all listen, understand, analyze, ideas, reflect, while we can all learn, but actually not many people think about how we learn.
[00:12:22] When we don't think about how we learn, then we don't have that choice or that awareness to be more effective in how we learn. To your question, right, if we can help people to gain that awareness of how they are learning, right, and understand the process in human learning, we can definitely help people to be more agile in their learning.
[00:12:45] In my research, I also met a serial diploma chaser. So after one diploma, he'll go on to the next diploma, to the next diploma. Typically, we would think that, wow, this person really likes to learn, which is true. He really enjoys learning. But it's interesting also that the way he learns is to Attend diploma courses, formal learning.
[00:13:07] And so the question is, if he were not in a formal learning, would he be able to learn as effectively? The other example is somebody who was a musician and picked up software development without going through any formal learning. He is able to steer his own learning resource, his own learning approach.
[00:13:31] So for example, he was intrigued with software development, creating apps, right? Because he had a bunch of software developer friends and he went to NUS, uh, School of Computing, downloaded the Year 1 syllabus. And then from there, he pulled together all his resources from YouTube, from Khan Academy, from Coursera.
[00:13:51] So he put together all these learning resources. And then he learned, he applied, he tried it out. He created some calculator app and he asked his developer friends, how is it? How is it? After nine months, he taught himself how to do software development and change his job from a musician to a mobile app developer.
[00:14:10] So these two approaches are very different, right? One is through formal learning. And in that way, the instructors are the ones steering their learning process. Whereas in this musician developer example, he was the one who was steering his own learning process. So I think what we want to do is we want to help people have that capability to steer their own learning process so that they can learn anything, they can feel the sense of empowerment, the sense of confidence, which is also what we see amongst top learners is they not only have broader range of capabilities across different domains, not just in one particular field.
[00:14:48] They also have an expanded sense of identity.
[00:14:52] Vanessa I: That's very powerful. I mean, one of the things that I'm picking up from you, Wendy, that we could use more often in our L& D program is make sure that all the learners actually are about their own preference when it comes to learning. Because if you know about yourself, like if you know, for instance, that you are someone who is more comfortable with formal learning or practical learning, then you can also, you know, move towards the exercises or the parts of the program that are more in line with your needs.
[00:15:21] And I think there are many, many people, they don't even realize that their ability to learn their learning way is different from someone else. And this is sometimes the mistake we are making as creator of content in companies. We should have actually different approaches for different publics and different attendants, depending on their own ways of learning.
[00:15:41] So this is one of the piece of research you have done that we could use immediately with Vanessa in what we do on a daily basis. Thank you for that.
[00:15:48] One of the other parts of the research we are doing right now is the impact of the future of work on the organization. The shift we have described in workplace means that it's an imperative for organizations to seek out new technology and to use data to drive optimal results and better decisions.
[00:16:06] With automation and AI changing how we work, how can we all be agile learners?
[00:16:12] Wendy T: Yeah, with AI and automation, what this means is not just a repetitive job, but also some level of the middle level job being done by AI tool, right? Just now we had an example in writing a book. We typically would need development editor, somebody who looks at the structure and the coherence and the nuance and to present the ideas differently.
[00:16:35] We also need a copy editor, somebody who deals with the sentence structure, looking at the grammar, just editing it for easier reading. And finally, we need a proof reader. In this example, we actually can use ChatGPT to proofread our material. We can also use ChatGPT to make our writing more compelling, more concise.
[00:16:56] So that's copy editing. But the development editing cannot be done by AI tools, right? Because that's a higher level that involves critical thinking, that involves the understanding of context, that involves judgment. With AI tools and automation, what it means is that the lower level jobs and even the middle level job will be replaced or will be very much done by these AI tools.
[00:17:20] What's left is these higher level jobs, which then means that we all need to have higher level skills to add value beyond what machines can do. It also means that we want to be able to understand different contexts across different domains, not just in our singular domain, so that we can connect the dots.
[00:17:39] So then all this comes back to learning agility. To what extent are we able to, say for a HR person to understand the business, to understand the strategy, to understand finance, to understand technology, to understand sustainability. So all of these, if the HR person is able to connect across all of these to understand these different areas.
[00:18:00] Then we'll be able to add more value to our organization. And therefore then that requires learning agility.
[00:18:07] Vanessa I: That requires us to basically rethink completely our job description. I mean, you're giving this excellent examples around copy edition, but as a practical consequence of what you're described, it requires us basically in every industry for every job.
[00:18:22] To rethink the job description and to really focus on the part that I personally call the added value part, where you're really, really bringing the biggest value. It requires also us to think very deep around automation and to put in place the tech that is going to support also the disappearance of some of the low level jobs.
[00:18:41] This process, I think, is going to be iterative, but from an HR perspective, it's going to be a lot of work for all of us to actually look into it in depth and to make sure that we are providing the right environment for the people to develop themselves.
[00:18:54] Vanessa T: So, Wendy, following with that, too, what should organizations do to really help our people to upskill and to thrive in their careers?
[00:19:02] Wendy T: Unlike in the past when things were not changing so quickly, when the terrain is basically quite known, we know like the kind of skills needed. And therefore we can put together our training roadmap and, you know, put people through systematically these like lists of training. But given that there's so much unknown and it's such diverse areas, I think that we really need to rethink how we do learning in organizations.
[00:19:29] Instead of prescribing what people need to learn, I think. We need to empower people instead to look at themselves and based on their own career aspirations, based on their own preferences, their own curiosity to then know how to go ahead in the words of being agile learners to pull together their learning resources.
[00:19:50] I mean, they could still be attending training workshops, but we need to empower our people to think about their own learning and not to be fed through the L& D system. To empower people to think about what am I curious about? Where's the business going? What kind of skills would I in my role need? For example, a support staff usually does more administrative, repetitive work.
[00:20:14] Right. But then you could still add value by learning to use these AI tools, not just using these tools, but also learning to be more critical in that process. Even like stuff at a lower level can still add value because they can then innovate and suggest new ways. What organizations need to do is to empower people to have the tools to manage their own learning.
[00:20:38] The other thing that organizations can do right is also to teach managers to be learning coaches. So, in my research, the third predictor of learning agility is actually having a learning rich job, a learning rich opportunity, a job that compels us to get out of our comfort zone, to do what we don't know how to do, to learn new skills in order to be successful.
[00:21:03] The research shows actually managers not the most important role. But what you need first and foremost is you need your role to be something that gets you out of your comfort zone. Then with that as a playground, your manager comes in to support and challenge your learning. You have a team that comes in to share learning resources or to give feedback in a very proactive way.
[00:21:24] And of course, the organization resources, the organization giving time for learning, the organization learning culture, all these comes in to play a role. Managers can play a role, in terms of being a learning coach, is to find opportunity for this learning rich job. And what that means is connecting between the business need, because the business strategies are changing.
[00:21:47] What the business needs of us and the career aspirations of the individual or their interest. Finding that match, that sweet spot, say like 65% might be something that the staff is familiar with, but 35% is something that they are not, and therefore they need to learn. Creating that learning rich job is certainly something that organizations can do.
[00:22:08] Vanessa I: Mm-Hmm.
[00:22:08] Wendy T: And the last thing is making learning routine part of everyday work. So learning is like just another job. It's not like a good to have. For example, amongst the priorities that the staff has, have one priority every week about learning, learning something. It could be once a month, getting the team together to share what we are learning so that we can help one another expand our horizon.
[00:22:33] And then maybe it could be once a quarter, get the team together to exchange feedback. "What I appreciate about you...", "a suggestion for you is..." So in that way, with a very feedback rich environment, which is also something that came out in my research as one of the factors that support learning. I think these are some ways that organizations can help our people.
[00:22:57] Vanessa I: Thank you for sharing, uh, Wendy. It's really a very, very positive because it makes the future actually very bright. It means the jobs of the future are going to be very good when it comes to added value. They are going to stretch us. They are going to bring us out of our comfort zone and they are going to also encourage us to have more collaboration and cooperation with our colleagues.
[00:23:22] So this is really, really positive. There are so many people who are describing the future of work as something like doom and gloom. So I'm so happy to hear you talking about something that is motivating for all of us. We've gathered so much helpful and practical information from you today. Thank you so much, Wendy.
[00:23:37] So as we reflect on the rapidly changing world we're living, what would be your number one priority for professionals to be future ready?
[00:23:45] Wendy T: Yeah, this is really an important question. And I think the number one priority for all of us here is really to be proactive, to take action in our learning. Know what is it that you want to learn.
[00:23:57] And be proactive, go and join a community, be a group of people to learn together with this group of people. Find experts and interview them and find out how to be skilled quickly in this domain area. Just being proactive and taking action is what we should all be doing.
[00:24:15] Vanessa T: Be proactive. Love that.
[00:24:17] We just wanted to say a huge thank you to Dr. Wendy Tan for coming again onto our Career Transitions podcast and sharing your valuable insights with our listeners. If you're looking to pick up Wendy's books, Learning Agility, and her first book, Wholeness in a Disruptive World, do check out our show notes.
[00:24:36] Thank you once again, Wendy, for being on our show, and we wish you all a great day. Thank you.
[00:00:14] Vanessa T: This episode with Dr. Wendy Tan is all about learning agility. We've been admirers of Wendy's work since her first book, Wholeness in a Disruptive World. Now, she has launched her second book, Learning Agility, Relearn, Reskill, Reinvent.
[00:00:30] Vanessa I: Wendy shares with us a valuable insight from her five years of research on the topic, what do the top 20 percent of agile learners do? She summarizes a complex topic in four key learnings we must all be aware of and she calls them the four P's, P for purpose of why we are learning, P for process of how we are learning, P for playground, learning environment, and P for be proactive.
[00:00:56] Vanessa T: We hope that you'll gain some valuable insights from this episode.
[00:01:04] Welcome everyone to the next episode of the Career Transitions podcast, the podcast where we explore what it takes to successfully navigate through career transitions, no matter which stage of life or career you're at.
[00:01:17] Vanessa I: Today we are very excited to welcome to our show Dr. Wendy Tan, entrepreneur, author and speaker.
[00:01:23] Wendy is the author of two books, the first one called Wholeness in a Disruptive World and a newly launched book, Learning Agility, Relearn, Reskill, Reinvent. Wendy, welcome back to the show.
[00:01:37] Wendy T: Hi ladies, I'm very happy to be back here and be chatting with you both again.
[00:01:41] Vanessa T: Wendy, welcome back. You are, in fact, one of our very inspiring guests from season one, and we're so glad to have you back on our show.
[00:01:50] This time, you're launching your second book, Learning Agility. And in fact, your book is now the number one bestseller list for psychology research and educational theory research on Amazon. So congratulations on this great accomplishment.
[00:02:06] Wendy T: Thank you so much. I'm so excited and honestly, really grateful that when I put out a post, I intended to launch the book two weeks later.
[00:02:16] But when I put out the post, everybody was very, very supportive. And then I thought, Hey, you know, the Amazon link is held already. Why not just share it with everybody? So I was so amazed by the outpour of support and interest, curiosity about the book. Perhaps it's the timing of the book and in today's world.
[00:02:35] And that's why the relevance of this topic, I think led it to be number one on Amazon, which I'm really thankful for. To be honest, this journey started about five years ago and we had no idea about AI and everything. But we already knew that machines are learning faster and smarter. Then it led me to think, what about us human beings?
[00:02:56] You know, the way we learn, have we really thought about the way we are learning? So my curiosity led me to this PhD journey to find out the answer to this question about how are we learning? How can we change the way or improve the way we learn? If machines are having a step change, right, and always learning, then what about us human beings?
[00:03:19] The interviews were really fun and exciting. A bit like you ladies doing the podcast, like learning in that journey and having such stimulating ideas. So with all of that, then subsequently identifying the top agile learner and the people in the average, people in the bottom, so in that way, by having a way to quantify learning agility, we could look at these top agile learners and compare it to like, what do they do differently?
[00:03:46] So this whole journey has been very stimulating, not just from an intellectual world perspective, the PhD perspective, but also a mirror to my own journey as I make the transition from being a consultant, a practitioner to being an entrepreneur. To work on the business rather than in the business and the kinds of shifts that I needed to make in the way I think.
[00:04:12] And it was a bit crazy doing it in parallel with the academic pursuit first and the entrepreneurial pursuit.
[00:04:18] Vanessa I: Yeah, I can imagine how many hours you needed in one day to do all the things you did, actually. So congratulations once again for this incredible achievement, uh writing one book is already such a hard thing to do, and now you have two under your name.
[00:04:33] So this is fantastic. So one of the things we wanted to ask you, Wendy, is around the research we are doing in this area. season around the future of work. We recently have found out through the McKinsey Global Institute that across eight major economies in the world, we anticipate that one in 16 workers may have to switch occupation by 2030.
[00:04:55] Increasingly professional need to be agile with their career. So do share with us, what does your research tell us about learning agility? What do agile learner do differently?
[00:05:06] Wendy T: So there are these four P's that Agile learners do differently. The first P is about purpose. There is a clear purpose that we link learning to our purpose.
[00:05:16] And that gives us the motivation when we are busy, when we are tired, to continue learning. The second P is about process. Agile learners are strong in what we call meta learning, the ability to stand back to reflect about how we are learning so that we can improve our learning process. And the third P is really about playground, right?
[00:05:39] That we create a learning rich playground for ourselves. Whenever we're learning a new skill to have this opportunity to apply, to get feedback quickly. So that this playground supports our learning. And the fourth P is simply proactive. Being proactive to take action, to take responsibility for our learning.
[00:05:59] So these are the four Ps that Agile learners do differently. So the first one is about learning motivation and about linking learning to purpose. What is it that leads us to stay committed, to stay consistent, just like you ladies putting weekends into these podcasts, right? In learning a lot in that process.
[00:06:20] And you talk about you putting something out that is useful for the community. So that sense of purpose fuels the learning. That's a number one factor in what Agile learners do differently, that the learning is connected to their sense of purpose. The second factor that I think is really important is what we call steering our learning process.
[00:06:41] What I found from this research is that if somebody is continuing in their domain, if you are a HR professional and you continue as a HR professional for a good part of your career without having to move or change very much, then probably you are making incremental growth in your learning. So you're learning more and more about HR.
[00:07:02] But if you were to shift from, say, to a different area, HR to HR analytics, or predictive HR, using these AI tools, then we have to learn new skills. And that's where we really need to steer our learning process, to have the range of learning strategies. To help us learn effectively, efficiently in the limited time that we have.
[00:07:26] So I think the second one is really about agile learners, having a range of learning strategies, and also what we call this high meta learning approach. That's the ability to stand back and to look at what do we need to learn? How do we learn? Who can help us? How are we coming along in this learning process?
[00:07:47] And what can I do to improve?
[00:07:49] Vanessa I: I think this is also what we are observing in our companies, in our organization, you know, especially the concept of meta learning. I mean, which is what I understand, if I understand it correctly, is the ability for us to take an overview of what we are doing as learners and to have the big picture of our learning.
[00:08:07] And I think it's related to meta consciousness. Uh, this part of metaconsciousness and the concept of meta learning, how do you identify it with your groups of learners? What is exactly giving you the insight about their ability to look at the big picture?
[00:08:23] Wendy T: That's a great question. Because when I was interviewing the range of learners, asking people what do they do to learn.
[00:08:31] So there are two very different learning approach. For example, I need to learn data analytics. And then they attend a course, and then they might try to learn something about it. It's kind of like a stuttering train. It starts, it stops, it starts, it stops. So it's not continuous. The learner in this process becomes distracted.
[00:08:52] You know, we're all busy working professionals, like not having time is a number one obstacle that people report in learning. So in this case, this person did not have that metacognitive perspective to take a step back on their learning. Whereas another person who is among the top 20 percent of Agile learners, she was learning coaching and she is able to naturally, subconsciously ask herself these questions like, why is learning coaching important for me?
[00:09:23] For her, she is somebody who is very task oriented. She's really good in problem solving. But as she progressed in the organization, she realized that she cannot keep solving problems for her ever increasing number of staff under her. She realizes that she needs to scale her impact as a manager and coach them to be problem solvers themselves.
[00:09:46] In this way, she had that strong purpose for learning. She was also a recipient of coaching. She realizes the impact of it. She asked herself questions like, what do I do to pick up the skill? Who are the role models? How can I get feedback quickly? How am I progressing in my learning of coaching skills?
[00:10:06] This metacognitive approach then led her to not just attend a workshop, but she quickly applied the skills. Got feedback. She was very intentional on getting feedback from people. She then asked herself, okay, who are the role models? There's this particular senior leader who is natural. People gravitate to her.
[00:10:27] People are comfortable with her. She reached out to this role model and asked her, you know, what led you to be a very good coach? What is it that you do differently? She realized that there are three levels. The first level is just learning the knowledge, the framework, the content. These things we can easily get from books and from online learning resources.
[00:10:49] The second level in learning is applying our knowledge and framework differently to different people, to different situations. And then the third level that I've discovered in this process is having that finesse, having that embodiment. And through interviewing this role model, she realizes that the finesse in coaching is really about empathy.
[00:11:12] And so by asking herself this question, This manager was able to steer her own learning across these three levels.
[00:11:21] Vanessa T: Wendy, I, what you said really resonated with me in terms of how the top 20 percent of agile learners are individuals who don't just sit on that knowledge, but are proactive in being able to translate that knowledge, apply it and adapting it.
[00:11:38] To the right situations and to apply different ways to apply that knowledge. But also being able to embody it with empathy and finesse. I thought that was a great way of encapsulating how some of the top learners out there really learn. So through your research, can you tell us what your research tells us about whether or not learning agility can be taught?
[00:12:00] I'm always wondering, don't people just learn naturally?
[00:12:03] Wendy T: After seeing a whole range of people, I realized that actually we all learn differently. While we can all learn in a sense that we can all listen, understand, analyze, ideas, reflect, while we can all learn, but actually not many people think about how we learn.
[00:12:22] When we don't think about how we learn, then we don't have that choice or that awareness to be more effective in how we learn. To your question, right, if we can help people to gain that awareness of how they are learning, right, and understand the process in human learning, we can definitely help people to be more agile in their learning.
[00:12:45] In my research, I also met a serial diploma chaser. So after one diploma, he'll go on to the next diploma, to the next diploma. Typically, we would think that, wow, this person really likes to learn, which is true. He really enjoys learning. But it's interesting also that the way he learns is to Attend diploma courses, formal learning.
[00:13:07] And so the question is, if he were not in a formal learning, would he be able to learn as effectively? The other example is somebody who was a musician and picked up software development without going through any formal learning. He is able to steer his own learning resource, his own learning approach.
[00:13:31] So for example, he was intrigued with software development, creating apps, right? Because he had a bunch of software developer friends and he went to NUS, uh, School of Computing, downloaded the Year 1 syllabus. And then from there, he pulled together all his resources from YouTube, from Khan Academy, from Coursera.
[00:13:51] So he put together all these learning resources. And then he learned, he applied, he tried it out. He created some calculator app and he asked his developer friends, how is it? How is it? After nine months, he taught himself how to do software development and change his job from a musician to a mobile app developer.
[00:14:10] So these two approaches are very different, right? One is through formal learning. And in that way, the instructors are the ones steering their learning process. Whereas in this musician developer example, he was the one who was steering his own learning process. So I think what we want to do is we want to help people have that capability to steer their own learning process so that they can learn anything, they can feel the sense of empowerment, the sense of confidence, which is also what we see amongst top learners is they not only have broader range of capabilities across different domains, not just in one particular field.
[00:14:48] They also have an expanded sense of identity.
[00:14:52] Vanessa I: That's very powerful. I mean, one of the things that I'm picking up from you, Wendy, that we could use more often in our L& D program is make sure that all the learners actually are about their own preference when it comes to learning. Because if you know about yourself, like if you know, for instance, that you are someone who is more comfortable with formal learning or practical learning, then you can also, you know, move towards the exercises or the parts of the program that are more in line with your needs.
[00:15:21] And I think there are many, many people, they don't even realize that their ability to learn their learning way is different from someone else. And this is sometimes the mistake we are making as creator of content in companies. We should have actually different approaches for different publics and different attendants, depending on their own ways of learning.
[00:15:41] So this is one of the piece of research you have done that we could use immediately with Vanessa in what we do on a daily basis. Thank you for that.
[00:15:48] One of the other parts of the research we are doing right now is the impact of the future of work on the organization. The shift we have described in workplace means that it's an imperative for organizations to seek out new technology and to use data to drive optimal results and better decisions.
[00:16:06] With automation and AI changing how we work, how can we all be agile learners?
[00:16:12] Wendy T: Yeah, with AI and automation, what this means is not just a repetitive job, but also some level of the middle level job being done by AI tool, right? Just now we had an example in writing a book. We typically would need development editor, somebody who looks at the structure and the coherence and the nuance and to present the ideas differently.
[00:16:35] We also need a copy editor, somebody who deals with the sentence structure, looking at the grammar, just editing it for easier reading. And finally, we need a proof reader. In this example, we actually can use ChatGPT to proofread our material. We can also use ChatGPT to make our writing more compelling, more concise.
[00:16:56] So that's copy editing. But the development editing cannot be done by AI tools, right? Because that's a higher level that involves critical thinking, that involves the understanding of context, that involves judgment. With AI tools and automation, what it means is that the lower level jobs and even the middle level job will be replaced or will be very much done by these AI tools.
[00:17:20] What's left is these higher level jobs, which then means that we all need to have higher level skills to add value beyond what machines can do. It also means that we want to be able to understand different contexts across different domains, not just in our singular domain, so that we can connect the dots.
[00:17:39] So then all this comes back to learning agility. To what extent are we able to, say for a HR person to understand the business, to understand the strategy, to understand finance, to understand technology, to understand sustainability. So all of these, if the HR person is able to connect across all of these to understand these different areas.
[00:18:00] Then we'll be able to add more value to our organization. And therefore then that requires learning agility.
[00:18:07] Vanessa I: That requires us to basically rethink completely our job description. I mean, you're giving this excellent examples around copy edition, but as a practical consequence of what you're described, it requires us basically in every industry for every job.
[00:18:22] To rethink the job description and to really focus on the part that I personally call the added value part, where you're really, really bringing the biggest value. It requires also us to think very deep around automation and to put in place the tech that is going to support also the disappearance of some of the low level jobs.
[00:18:41] This process, I think, is going to be iterative, but from an HR perspective, it's going to be a lot of work for all of us to actually look into it in depth and to make sure that we are providing the right environment for the people to develop themselves.
[00:18:54] Vanessa T: So, Wendy, following with that, too, what should organizations do to really help our people to upskill and to thrive in their careers?
[00:19:02] Wendy T: Unlike in the past when things were not changing so quickly, when the terrain is basically quite known, we know like the kind of skills needed. And therefore we can put together our training roadmap and, you know, put people through systematically these like lists of training. But given that there's so much unknown and it's such diverse areas, I think that we really need to rethink how we do learning in organizations.
[00:19:29] Instead of prescribing what people need to learn, I think. We need to empower people instead to look at themselves and based on their own career aspirations, based on their own preferences, their own curiosity to then know how to go ahead in the words of being agile learners to pull together their learning resources.
[00:19:50] I mean, they could still be attending training workshops, but we need to empower our people to think about their own learning and not to be fed through the L& D system. To empower people to think about what am I curious about? Where's the business going? What kind of skills would I in my role need? For example, a support staff usually does more administrative, repetitive work.
[00:20:14] Right. But then you could still add value by learning to use these AI tools, not just using these tools, but also learning to be more critical in that process. Even like stuff at a lower level can still add value because they can then innovate and suggest new ways. What organizations need to do is to empower people to have the tools to manage their own learning.
[00:20:38] The other thing that organizations can do right is also to teach managers to be learning coaches. So, in my research, the third predictor of learning agility is actually having a learning rich job, a learning rich opportunity, a job that compels us to get out of our comfort zone, to do what we don't know how to do, to learn new skills in order to be successful.
[00:21:03] The research shows actually managers not the most important role. But what you need first and foremost is you need your role to be something that gets you out of your comfort zone. Then with that as a playground, your manager comes in to support and challenge your learning. You have a team that comes in to share learning resources or to give feedback in a very proactive way.
[00:21:24] And of course, the organization resources, the organization giving time for learning, the organization learning culture, all these comes in to play a role. Managers can play a role, in terms of being a learning coach, is to find opportunity for this learning rich job. And what that means is connecting between the business need, because the business strategies are changing.
[00:21:47] What the business needs of us and the career aspirations of the individual or their interest. Finding that match, that sweet spot, say like 65% might be something that the staff is familiar with, but 35% is something that they are not, and therefore they need to learn. Creating that learning rich job is certainly something that organizations can do.
[00:22:08] Vanessa I: Mm-Hmm.
[00:22:08] Wendy T: And the last thing is making learning routine part of everyday work. So learning is like just another job. It's not like a good to have. For example, amongst the priorities that the staff has, have one priority every week about learning, learning something. It could be once a month, getting the team together to share what we are learning so that we can help one another expand our horizon.
[00:22:33] And then maybe it could be once a quarter, get the team together to exchange feedback. "What I appreciate about you...", "a suggestion for you is..." So in that way, with a very feedback rich environment, which is also something that came out in my research as one of the factors that support learning. I think these are some ways that organizations can help our people.
[00:22:57] Vanessa I: Thank you for sharing, uh, Wendy. It's really a very, very positive because it makes the future actually very bright. It means the jobs of the future are going to be very good when it comes to added value. They are going to stretch us. They are going to bring us out of our comfort zone and they are going to also encourage us to have more collaboration and cooperation with our colleagues.
[00:23:22] So this is really, really positive. There are so many people who are describing the future of work as something like doom and gloom. So I'm so happy to hear you talking about something that is motivating for all of us. We've gathered so much helpful and practical information from you today. Thank you so much, Wendy.
[00:23:37] So as we reflect on the rapidly changing world we're living, what would be your number one priority for professionals to be future ready?
[00:23:45] Wendy T: Yeah, this is really an important question. And I think the number one priority for all of us here is really to be proactive, to take action in our learning. Know what is it that you want to learn.
[00:23:57] And be proactive, go and join a community, be a group of people to learn together with this group of people. Find experts and interview them and find out how to be skilled quickly in this domain area. Just being proactive and taking action is what we should all be doing.
[00:24:15] Vanessa T: Be proactive. Love that.
[00:24:17] We just wanted to say a huge thank you to Dr. Wendy Tan for coming again onto our Career Transitions podcast and sharing your valuable insights with our listeners. If you're looking to pick up Wendy's books, Learning Agility, and her first book, Wholeness in a Disruptive World, do check out our show notes.
[00:24:36] Thank you once again, Wendy, for being on our show, and we wish you all a great day. Thank you.
