Cannes 77: Une Langue Universelle (Matthew Rankin) & It Doesn't Matter (Josh Mond) & The Other Way Around (Jonás Trueba) & Armand (Halfdan Olav Ullmann Tøndel) & Apprendre (Claire Simon)

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Hello, hello, hello, and welcome to the third episode of Cannesversations coverage of the 77th
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edition of the Cannes Film Festival.
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I'm Eliana.
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And I'm Patrick.
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Hi.
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Hi.
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So it is Tuesday the 21st.
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We've been here for just over a week, seven or eight days.
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We've seen quite a few films.
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I was wondering if you wanted to start off with how are you feeling?
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How is it going?
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Yeah, I mean, at this point of the festival, it's actually a legitimate question to ask
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because especially this year, it started out very rough, I think.
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The first few days, I wasn't sure why I came here in terms of films.
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I didn't see a lot of good stuff.
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But the films that I found good were the ones I had seen before the festival, actually,
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through screeners.
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So there was sort of this mismatch of expectations and the films I got to see here so far.
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But since the day or two, since yesterday or the day before, it's becoming a real festival
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now.
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So I'm happy about that.
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And also today was one of the first days, maybe the first day that I got proper sleep,
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which means I feel relatively rested right now, which helps also with the movies and
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staying awake.
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I think this is something you've been struggling with a bit.
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Yes.
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One of our friends said that when I don't sleep for at least seven hours, I don't like
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films.
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So this is a very concise way to just address the whole entire festival experience.
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And it's very accurate.
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Yeah.
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And how have you felt about the festival so far?
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I would say more of the same.
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I've been struggling with consciousness, but also enjoying the various experiences, because
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sometimes it almost feels perhaps like you're floating in another sense and creating scenarios
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or films while you're sitting in another film, which is not always the point.
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But today we're going to try to discuss a few of the films that we've seen, which will
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be Une langue universelle or A Universal Language by Matthew Rankin, which appeared in
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Quinzaine des cinéastes.
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It was a film that both you and I liked in different ways.
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I got to see it in a Q&A at the Théâtre Croisette.
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And do you want to start?
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Yeah, I mean, I can introduce it, even though it's a bit tricky.
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The director Rankin, he described it as a venn diagram of Winnipeg, Montréal and Théran.
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So those are the three cities that are sort of mixed together in this narrative here.
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And I think it's a nice quote.
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I just want to quote him here.
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He also said, Iranian cinema emerges out of a thousand years of poetry, while Canadian
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cinema emerges out of 40 years of discount furniture commercials.
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And I think this is the sort of self-deprecation that we see very often from Canadian filmmakers.
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We have also had that in the Guy Maddin film.
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What was that?
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Winnipeg or...
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Oh no, Rumours.
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Yes, there were also these Canadian jokes.
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And it's a very interesting mishmash, I think he's finding here.
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It's a collaboration with his two friends.
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I don't know how to pronounce their names, but Pirouz Nemati and
Ila Firouzabadi
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And they've been friends for some time and they've been collaborators on this one here.
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So they are also actors and screenwriters and producers.
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And they wanted to bring together the best of each world, I suppose.
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And one can clearly see certain inspirations for that film.
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I was especially struck by...
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I was thinking of The White Balloon by Jafar Panahi, because there's this one scene here
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that is a frozen banknote of the Iranian currency and two girls, they are trying to get it out
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of the ice.
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They can just see through the transparent ice in the banknote, but have no means of
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getting there, getting it out there.
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But yeah, this film is very episodic, I would say.
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We have different locations.
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It's a bit like, it's almost Wes Anderson-ish, but whereas for me, Wes Anderson in his most
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recent films lacked this sort of...
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Character building or other stuff?
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I don't think there's a lot of character building in this film.
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It's rather this...
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Maybe humanity, in a sense.
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They didn't feel like characters anymore in his most recent films, whereas here, these
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characters are really heartfelt, I think.
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There are scenes that are very touching, especially toward the end, and there are threads that
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are introduced and then seized toward the end of the film.
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So even though it's a very fragmented nature of the narrative, it still comes together
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as a whole, I would say.
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The film starts off at the school.
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At the school, we have the white shot of the school building, and we can watch through
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the window where we see a school class and a teacher, and it's a French class.
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It's very funny.
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I think it gives you a good idea of the humor of the film overall, the tonality, because
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the pupils there are all over the place, very wild, not behaving very well, and the teacher
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said, could you at least be so decent and misbehave in French?
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Yes, yes, yes.
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And I think this gives you an idea about the tonality of the film.
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Because it's in a sense, it's an international school, but also a French school.
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So it's a school in Winnipeg where most of the students come from a Persian background
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and they speak Farsi, and yet the teacher appears there with his tough love, and he's
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trying to teach them, perhaps, quote-unquote, "civilization or French", which is also done
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in a way that's, as one would imagine, a complicated relationship with the French language.
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And the fact that in some sense, Tehran and Canada or Quebec, but even though this place
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plays also in Winnipeg, which is also the funny part, all share this complexity with
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the French land and sovereignty or post or colonial past.
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Yeah, and all these strange aspects about Winnipeg, as one has to think of Guy Maddin
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there as well, and all these weird traditions they have, those feature here as well in some
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way or the other.
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There are also great scenes, just great place, like inventive and great character constellations
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and localities.
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There's this Kleenex store, for instance, that only sells Kleenex.
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Kleenex dispensary, a repository or something.
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What do they call it?
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Yeah, and there's a bingo game that the local community takes part in, and the winner, what
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do they win?
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They win a year's supply of Kleenex.
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So there's this obsession.
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It's completely absurd, yet very warm.
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I mean, speaking of Guy Maddin, he said "Winnipeg is always winter, always sleeping."
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And the director too also said something that was very much in this vein that you talked
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about earlier, that in a very dry humor way, he said, oh, there are two types of films
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that come out of Winnipeg.
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One he said, ruin porn, and the second Christmas movies.
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And what he wanted to do as well was to find something in the middle.
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So this is very much that film.
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I mean, it got a very warm reception throughout, which is something that sometimes you miss
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when you're screening it at home alone, even though I think you felt it.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But I was also thinking, oh, there's certain scenes, certain jokes.
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I think that would have worked very well with an audience.
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So yeah, I'm a bit sad that I miss out on that.
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But I could still sort of project which scenes would be of a crowd pleasing nature.
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And as I said, it's very fragmented.
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So to me, it's also like when I talk about it, it's also a bit fragmented.
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But there are just certain scenes, certain aspects that I found so fascinating.
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One of the subplots is that there is a tourist group led by a tour guide.
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This tour guide is at first introduced to us as almost a villainous, at least antagonistic
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figure.
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But in the end, he turns out to be just one of the guys we root for toward the end.
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But it gives us the different perspectives.
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And we see all these sites of whatever city it is in this moment.
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Is it Winnipeg?
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So for instance, there's the shopping mall they go through, and they're not allowed to
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rest for more than 30 seconds or so at one spot.
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And what I really liked and what reminded me a lot of Radu Jude's last film is this
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bifurcation of highway lanes.
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And in between there, this very tight angle, there is a monument.
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And all people go there to this very narrow strip of green or something.
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But it's as if in the Radu, we also had this highway where a lot of people died because
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it's so dangerous being there around.
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And we have this essayistic approach of seeing just for a few minutes, just all these tombstones
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and so on.
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And here it's almost like beauty is to be found, but at the places that really don't
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allow it to flourish.
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And you have to get there yourself and it's not at all advertised for you.
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Yes, yes.
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No, there was a lot of attention that was paid to the composition in this film, which
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speaks very much to your point about it being somewhat like Wes Anderson, even though there
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are some angles of the brutalist buildings that were so oblique and that made you feel
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like you were in some form of a labyrinth or a maze.
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And there's this different palettes.
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So there are the yellow buildings, the gray buildings, the beige buildings.
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When you see someone eating in the film, they're eating, I mean, how many different types of
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food that could be white or beige can they possibly be eating?
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And there's this very funny joke, but I don't know if I should ruin it, but just, oh, how
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do you feel about your experience?
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Was it positive or was it neutral?
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And just this finding something in the monotony or in the seemingly nothingness is something
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where there's this resilient lightness that comes through even in the bleakest palettes,
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the bleakest of cities, the bleakest of places.
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And this tour guide, in this sense, he brings the monotour of events or places that are
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seemingly just, what is the point of the tour?
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And then people on the tour even seem to feel a little bit, why am I here?
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But they still go and they don't leave.
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They just continue.
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Yeah.
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In that vein, I have one of my favorite quotes of the film that is they come to this beige
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building you already mentioned.
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And so he makes a bit of fuss about this building and they are wondering, have there been famous
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people living in it?
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And he says, no, but very kind people.
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This sort of encapsulates how endearing this film is and how it's very warm.
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It is funny, but never in a mean-spirited way.
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It's not satirical.
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It's rather something that feels very sincere.
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Yes.
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It reminds me in the spirit of I saw an art tune or a political cartoon type like The
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New Yorker recently, where you see some people going on a tour of an art gallery.
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And the little caption underneath is, and this gallery showcases the work of artists
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who became known for doing a lot of administrative work and wasting their time in writing grants,
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emails, and doing social media.
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The artist is Pablo Helguera.
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But this sort of a vein of comedy and humor and warmth.
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Yeah.
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And I think I liked as well in this film.
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Formally it is interesting.
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It's not just about these warm moments.
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I think it's also, it keeps you busy when you just look at what the film is trying to
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do aesthetically.
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I like these sort of contrasts of foreground and background, like what happens in the foreground,
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what happens in the background.
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And sometimes they are sort of at a weird interplay with one another.
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I also like the narrative aspect of that.
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Often we also have voice-offs and this very archaic almost mode of dialogue.
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And you see a car in the distance, but you hear still the dialogues as if they are close
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by.
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It felt very antiquated, but in a very charming way.
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I think we also want to rush through some other films, so maybe we leave it at that.
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We agreed upon that this would be more or less our starting point, but from here it's
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very free-floating.
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It is free-floating.
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Is there a film you want to transition to?
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We have a few.
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Should we just name a few that we've seen and then we can maybe pick one?
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I'll just pick one as you like.
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All right.
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Do you want to talk about Josh Mond?
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Mond?
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Yeah, Josh Mond, I think.
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Josh Mond.
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It doesn't matter.
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Right.
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So, It Doesn't Matter featured in the parallel section of ACID, which is the independent
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cinema and its distribution section.
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There are usually 14 films this year, 9 feature, 6.
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No, that's not 14, but it doesn't matter.
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I'll cut.
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And you're a big sort of fan of Josh Mond's first feature.
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So you are quite looking forward to this second feature because it's been a few years since
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he's made a film.
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Yeah.
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And one doesn't really know what happened since.
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It's very strange.
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Josh Mond was really his first film.
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James White was hailed in 2015, I think, when it played.
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I think it's Sundance at the time and it got a lot of awards, a lot of like a best debut
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of the year and so on.
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So there was a lot of prospect, I think, a lot of hopeful, a lot of hope associated with
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his name and it strikes you a bit of, you know, as an odd occurrence that nothing has
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followed since then.
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And now this film that seems of all films, this is not what I would have expected, maybe
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what anyone would have expected from Josh Mond's vision.
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But here we are in a very small side section of Cannes.
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And this film is very much a mixture of everything.
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It's in between, like even formally, we have cinema cameras, really, but then we have parts
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that seem more like V-log-esque.
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In the center of the story, if you want, we have two friends.
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The one is a filmmaker and played by Christopher Abbott.
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And the protagonist is actually Alvaro.
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That's a debut performance, more or less, by Jay Will.
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So there was a discovery by the team behind.
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I think he just graduated from a Juilliard or something.
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So he's very good.
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He has a very strong presence.
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And yet what's happening in this film is very, I mean, when we said that the first film was
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very fragmented, this is much more the case here.
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And it's, I mean, very facetiously almost, he was, Josh Mond was asked in interviews
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what kind of genre that is.
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And if it doesn't, if it matters at all.
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And of course his answer was, it doesn't matter.
255
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Yeah.
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So very interesting.
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To me, it's even a coming of age story.
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I don't know how you felt about that, but to me, this was sort of a through line throughout.
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And it not only spans around a decade or so, it also leads us through several states of
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the United States.
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We are in Oregon, we are in New York, we're in Colorado, we're in Hawaii.
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And at the end, we even end up in Paris.
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So it even goes across the Atlantic.
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And yeah, what happens, it's difficult to tell, but the protagonist, Alvaro, he's this
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person who's always on the fence of homelessness.
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And we have this ongoing conversation, especially to his, it seems, best friend, the Christopher
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Abbott character.
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But yeah, what was your impression?
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Like all nice films that have dialogue or conversation, this is definitely one of them.
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It's interesting to hear that you find it is kind of a coming of age story, because
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I think there is definitely that element in it.
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Yet the age of the protagonist that seems to be wandering and always on the verge of
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homelessness is somewhat unknown.
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But there's something also relatable in the way that he perambulates.
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But everything is a story.
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It's a story that leads to another story that leads to another story.
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And most of the conversations and the exchanges that happen take place from iPhone footage
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of even just like, I don't know, FaceTime or video chat calling.
279
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And it was ultimately a story that reminded me a bit of, it was not as poetic or interrupted
280
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by what we saw in the Berlinale, Was Hast Du Gestern Getraümt, Parajanov?
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By Faraz Fesharaki.
282
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Yeah, it's a difficult name for me.
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In that things begin with a call.
284
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Things begin with this initial instinct to want to communicate and connect.
285
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And from there, that instinct in and of itself, some form of creation, and it leads to a journey
286
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and just the telling of stories.
287
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So first we see the protagonists and they're separate in separate spaces.
288
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And at some point they also unite and there's some tension.
289
00:22:12,000 --> 00:22:19,160
It was really everything in this film and such a very, I didn't know, it was a very
290
00:22:19,160 --> 00:22:23,960
empowering way that these things came together ultimately.
291
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I was also there because I think I really like these Q&As and I was there for the Q&A
292
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in the Arcades, which is a smaller, more intimate cinema.
293
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And the director also has quite a sense of humor.
294
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He has a very like New York type of sense of humor.
295
00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:47,760
I'm not entirely sure if he's from New York, but he said that it also started by chatting
296
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with his co-writer.
297
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And then from there, he made a visual script with Alice De Matha.
298
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And from there, he was very just open about it.
299
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He just said, I didn't even know what I wanted to make, but it was through doing this and
300
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through the belief and trust of others that we were all able to find out what it was that
301
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we wanted to make.
302
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:13,360
And I think that very much carries it.
303
00:23:13,360 --> 00:23:19,240
He also said some things like COVID happened, you find out who your real friends are.
304
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It's kind of sad.
305
00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,240
But also not because then you know, you just know.
306
00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:26,600
And so he's embracing the part of knowing that.
307
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:33,100
And I think this film ultimately can be quite confusing depending on what type of an audience
308
00:23:33,100 --> 00:23:35,460
or what sort of thing you're looking for to see.
309
00:23:35,460 --> 00:23:40,280
Because it occurred to me that I might have actually seen James White while I was doing
310
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a little bit of research.
311
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:48,600
And this was also a very different type of story, but about a son who's trying to figure
312
00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:54,280
out his own path in some sense, giving the restraints of his mother.
313
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You could even argue that was a story.
314
00:23:56,200 --> 00:24:01,720
And this here is, you know, to some people wouldn't even categorize it as a story in
315
00:24:01,720 --> 00:24:05,720
itself, but rather different vignettes that come together.
316
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:06,720
Yeah.
317
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:13,080
And the filmmaker also said that it was primarily his friend who tells all these stories that
318
00:24:13,080 --> 00:24:16,080
he found himself so enchanted by.
319
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:22,840
And yeah, what I still wanted to say, this coming of age aspect that I mentioned earlier
320
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:31,320
and that you were somewhat skeptical of maybe, I think I just liked how it comes together
321
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:32,320
in the end.
322
00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:39,600
I don't want to give that away, but there is this idea that Alvaro, the protagonist,
323
00:24:39,600 --> 00:24:46,640
finds something in his past that sort of guides him toward what his future might be looking
324
00:24:46,640 --> 00:24:52,240
like, which is very much embedded with cinema itself.
325
00:24:52,240 --> 00:25:00,240
And also, there is this aspect toward the end, maybe it starts really in the last third
326
00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:08,120
of the movie, that he becomes more and more conscious of what he wants in life and he
327
00:25:08,120 --> 00:25:12,800
takes on certain directives for how to lead his life.
328
00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:17,880
I really love this motif in this film that fall forward.
329
00:25:17,880 --> 00:25:22,920
You know, there is this phrase, fall forward.
330
00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:31,440
And this is such a great encapsulation of, yeah, whatever happens to you, try to remain
331
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:33,640
in control of things.
332
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:40,040
And there was this other, I think there was another quote, you know, it almost sounds
333
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:44,320
a bit like he founded like coach on YouTube or something.
334
00:25:44,320 --> 00:25:47,960
And he now tries to emulate.
335
00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:52,960
But there's this quote also where he says, don't aspire to make a living, aspire to make
336
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a difference.
337
00:25:54,280 --> 00:26:00,040
And of course, those things can sound very cheesy easily.
338
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:10,680
But the film sort of transports a sense of growth, I think, toward the end without ever
339
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:19,480
feeling forced in any way because this narrative is so disparate and is so, yeah, vignette
340
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,640
like that you don't get the sense that there is something that is enforced upon you.
341
00:26:24,640 --> 00:26:30,640
And one of the elements we haven't mentioned yet is, of course, the animation and primarily
342
00:26:30,640 --> 00:26:36,000
Anthony F. Sheppard was the force behind that, the driving force.
343
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:42,960
And it's really, I think, quite inventive and quite original, the way not only how the
344
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animation is embedded here or sort of taking on its own life within the story, but also
345
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the graphics itself.
346
00:26:53,600 --> 00:27:00,040
And he's recounting a story and the graphics become a way, like a visual aid to guide us
347
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:01,600
through this.
348
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:08,040
And I think animation is such a loose medium, whereas you have to calculate every single
349
00:27:08,040 --> 00:27:09,640
thing at the same time.
350
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:15,600
It allows for such a freedom and liberty of that there's basically limitless.
351
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:20,440
And in this sense, the story becomes more than just something that might have happened
352
00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:21,680
in reality.
353
00:27:21,680 --> 00:27:23,960
It becomes more than that.
354
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:24,960
Yeah.
355
00:27:24,960 --> 00:27:30,240
And perhaps much more anarchical as well, which is something the film goes for.
356
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:36,920
I really liked its intensity and the just the quirkiness of it.
357
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:43,400
Like when just you see he's talking about a lady that pulls up in the car and then we
358
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,560
are introduced to the lady first, chest forward.
359
00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:52,920
And then he's asked to come into the car and he tries to go into the car with her and then
360
00:27:52,920 --> 00:27:55,120
slams the car door on his foot.
361
00:27:55,120 --> 00:27:59,080
And it's just really it's so it's so it's really fantastic.
362
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,920
And I saw that film with a friend of mine.
363
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:09,840
And when that happened and his phone breaks the screen, at least she was like, oh, no.
364
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:14,440
And it's strange because it doesn't seem like a lot.
365
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:16,960
But actually, in that scene, he doesn't have anything.
366
00:28:16,960 --> 00:28:22,440
So yeah, having his phone broken like this is sets him back.
367
00:28:22,440 --> 00:28:25,560
He has to go to work to try to fix it.
368
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,440
Yeah, the money to fix it, too.
369
00:28:27,440 --> 00:28:31,000
But yeah, I think we should go on here.
370
00:28:31,000 --> 00:28:34,600
But I think this we would recommend that film as well.
371
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:35,600
Right.
372
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:36,600
To a very specific.
373
00:28:36,600 --> 00:28:37,600
Yeah.
374
00:28:37,600 --> 00:28:40,400
But I think it's also a film that just stands out here.
375
00:28:40,400 --> 00:28:41,400
Right.
376
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:46,480
And it is a film that's very positive, but ultimately says I go out and make films, go
377
00:28:46,480 --> 00:28:49,200
out and find your friends and make films.
378
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:54,040
Yeah, I would say I mean, I don't I don't need like something affirmative like that
379
00:28:54,040 --> 00:28:59,720
in films, but I guess it can uplift your mood as well.
380
00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:05,120
And perhaps, I don't know, like, would you feel ready to talk about Jonas Trueba the
381
00:29:05,120 --> 00:29:06,440
other way around?
382
00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:07,440
We can.
383
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,200
There was until I saw an aura earlier today.
384
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,200
Oh, yes.
385
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:12,200
The new Sean Baker film.
386
00:29:12,200 --> 00:29:14,440
That was my number one so far.
387
00:29:14,440 --> 00:29:18,440
So I thought your number one was Blue Sun Palace.
388
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:19,440
Those things change.
389
00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:28,560
But yeah, Jonas Trueba the other way around, I cannot and won't try to use the original
390
00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:30,520
title in Spanish here.
391
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:38,480
But he is a filmmaker from from Madrid, who's already made like seven or eight films or
392
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:39,640
so.
393
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:47,400
And this is one I, you know, often when you go to these festivals, you use you are there
394
00:29:47,400 --> 00:29:52,720
so many, so many films in this election that you don't even notice that you have already
395
00:29:52,720 --> 00:29:54,960
seen films by certain filmmakers.
396
00:29:54,960 --> 00:30:01,000
And this was one of those instances where I didn't realize that I had seen a film
397
00:30:01,000 --> 00:30:04,840
by Trüber from 2021.
398
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,000
It's called Who's Stopping Us.
399
00:30:07,000 --> 00:30:09,000
It's the sort of docu fiction.
400
00:30:09,000 --> 00:30:22,120
It's in between, yeah, it follows these this group of adolescents and just tries to capture
401
00:30:22,120 --> 00:30:31,800
this moment that seems for a lot of youngsters so difficult to come up with a positive notion
402
00:30:31,800 --> 00:30:33,840
and vision of the future.
403
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:41,840
And this film sort of tries to frame that in three and a half hours, quite a long film.
404
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:46,960
But there was only, yeah, that was my only film I've seen by him.
405
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,040
And there's no one now the other way around.
406
00:30:50,040 --> 00:30:54,280
It's that won me over from the first scene, I think.
407
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:59,120
In the first scene, I think it's good to mention that because it gives us an idea what the
408
00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:00,120
film is about.
409
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:03,080
It basically lays out its present.
410
00:31:03,080 --> 00:31:06,280
It's a pretext.
411
00:31:06,280 --> 00:31:07,280
It's premise.
412
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:08,280
Thank you.
413
00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:09,280
Yeah.
414
00:31:09,280 --> 00:31:20,760
And we see a couple, a married couple in their bed together at night and they discuss divorce.
415
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:30,760
And the female character, her father always had this idea that he was low key proud of,
416
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:40,520
actually, that not only should we all celebrate weddings, we should also have something akin
417
00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:41,520
to that.
418
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:46,280
But for the opposite, there would be separations, divorce.
419
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:48,280
One should have a party for that as well.
420
00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:56,160
One should invite people and sort of celebrate the freedom that comes along with that as
421
00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:57,160
well.
422
00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:09,400
And there's from the very beginning, there's this unrecognized or unadmitted power disbalance
423
00:32:09,400 --> 00:32:17,160
between the two in the sense that you're not quite sure who is perhaps pressuring whom
424
00:32:17,160 --> 00:32:19,680
into this idea.
425
00:32:19,680 --> 00:32:25,840
From then on, they acknowledge to each other that, oh, I'm fine with that.
426
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:27,560
But now they have to go along with it.
427
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:28,560
Yes.
428
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:29,560
And there's a playful, oh, sorry.
429
00:32:29,560 --> 00:32:30,560
No, no, no.
430
00:32:30,560 --> 00:32:37,360
And there's a playfulness as well, which also is a heavy recurring theme where they notice,
431
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:40,680
ah, that would make a good film.
432
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:41,680
Right.
433
00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:42,680
Yeah.
434
00:32:42,680 --> 00:32:44,040
I think that's from the beginning.
435
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:46,920
And at first you think, oh, isn't that a bit forced?
436
00:32:46,920 --> 00:32:51,000
But it turns out they are both in the film industry.
437
00:32:51,000 --> 00:32:52,000
He is an actor.
438
00:32:52,000 --> 00:32:54,920
She is a director, among other things.
439
00:32:54,920 --> 00:32:59,280
He's also an editor as well.
440
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:01,320
And yeah, so it makes sort of sense.
441
00:33:01,320 --> 00:33:07,040
And yeah, this film has these meta elements as well that we can get into in a bit.
442
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:14,360
I think what is central here is now that they have this idea and now they talk to family
443
00:33:14,360 --> 00:33:18,480
and friends and they tell the same story again and again.
444
00:33:18,480 --> 00:33:24,880
And I feel like what in, let's say comedies, you can say this is a comedy.
445
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:27,480
But it's not like a haha comedy.
446
00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,920
It's rather something that feels true to life as well.
447
00:33:30,920 --> 00:33:38,760
And here there is this element of, you know, it starts from this very first, like the spark
448
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:43,520
of the idea to then becoming more and more performative because the more often they say
449
00:33:43,520 --> 00:33:48,440
it, the more and more they have sort of practice lines, so to speak.
450
00:33:48,440 --> 00:33:50,160
And it becomes sort of solid.
451
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:52,960
They repeat the same things again and again.
452
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:59,480
And this later takes on one of the leitmotifs of this film.
453
00:33:59,480 --> 00:34:04,880
I would say that for me, watching the first half is kind of like a Seinfeld episode.
454
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:11,520
I mean, I don't mean it in any way, but where you have a concept and then it's being harped
455
00:34:11,520 --> 00:34:15,840
on and you're going around and you're explaining it to all your friends.
456
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:22,080
But then the second half does play with that in a very smart way that adds a level of profundity.
457
00:34:22,080 --> 00:34:28,120
But I think in a Seinfeld episode, I would think you often perhaps would have this one
458
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:31,480
idea notion and just through like...
459
00:34:31,480 --> 00:34:34,200
But you haven't watched Seinfeld.
460
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:40,040
I'm just thinking of, you know, like these old comedies.
461
00:34:40,040 --> 00:34:47,400
And I know it was considered to be one of the more formative ones for many people and
462
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:48,920
more daring ones.
463
00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:54,360
And if I think of sitcoms and so on, they often have this one idea that they lay out
464
00:34:54,360 --> 00:34:58,320
the premise and then they go through that for like 20 minutes or so.
465
00:34:58,320 --> 00:35:00,520
And then the episode is over.
466
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,400
Whereas here, it seems more like a starting point for this.
467
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:06,720
And there is this change in dynamic.
468
00:35:06,720 --> 00:35:07,720
Yes.
469
00:35:07,720 --> 00:35:11,880
And I think that is what ultimately makes it a fuller picture.
470
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:18,960
Yeah, because there is, as I said, it becomes performative, but then they become conscious
471
00:35:18,960 --> 00:35:21,320
of the performance aspect as well.
472
00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:26,040
And they get annoyed with the performance aspect as well.
473
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:31,680
The performance aspect takes on so many different aspects that they're even jokingly at some
474
00:35:31,680 --> 00:35:32,680
point.
475
00:35:32,680 --> 00:35:36,040
I don't know if we should really talk more about it or if we should.
476
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:37,040
Sure.
477
00:35:37,040 --> 00:35:44,440
But they even jokingly edit, we're shown sequences and it somewhat becomes unclear whether they
478
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,200
are actually going through with the initial idea.
479
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,920
Oh, this is a good idea.
480
00:35:48,920 --> 00:35:49,920
We should make it into a film.
481
00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:55,640
And they are making it into a film as we are seeing both the film as presented and the
482
00:35:55,640 --> 00:36:00,120
film as being edited and the film as in progress.
483
00:36:00,120 --> 00:36:04,680
And it's not certain at all, even though one can also say, OK, you know, just step back
484
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:11,080
from these multiple layers of meta and just say, OK, what we are seeing is also in a sense,
485
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:14,320
a sense of finished film, too, depending on how you look at it.
486
00:36:14,320 --> 00:36:16,560
I don't know if that's how you saw it.
487
00:36:16,560 --> 00:36:26,720
And I did appreciate how smart it was without being overtly as if to really delineate between
488
00:36:26,720 --> 00:36:31,040
these different worlds, but to have them collide and have them collide in a sense where we
489
00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:38,840
can feel that the characters are also developing, like you say, their idea of whether the separation
490
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:45,480
is something that they will go through with the separation, the celebration and the separation.
491
00:36:45,480 --> 00:36:49,640
And I think this meta aspect is.
492
00:36:49,640 --> 00:36:54,600
It's I think a lot of people get easily annoyed by these meta aspects.
493
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:58,440
And but I think the way the movie incorporates this is very smart.
494
00:36:58,440 --> 00:37:06,280
I think there's the scene, for instance, when the husband walks along a bridge and it takes
495
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:09,080
some time for him to do that.
496
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:15,240
And then we see this film in the editing room as well, where they note that, oh, no, that's
497
00:37:15,240 --> 00:37:16,240
too long.
498
00:37:16,240 --> 00:37:18,040
We have to edit it.
499
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:24,680
And I also I don't know how you felt about that, but I found it somewhat refreshing the
500
00:37:24,680 --> 00:37:30,480
milieu because I mean, it's the oldest thing in the world that a film is about filmmaking.
501
00:37:30,480 --> 00:37:31,480
Right.
502
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:38,360
But here I haven't seen that often that we are so close into the milieu of filmmaking
503
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:43,280
because we have like test screenings and we have all these people they talk to.
504
00:37:43,280 --> 00:37:49,240
And I don't feel like I've seen that so often in films that we see test screenings and stuff.
505
00:37:49,240 --> 00:37:50,660
Yeah.
506
00:37:50,660 --> 00:37:55,680
This is a bit different, but I'm thinking about the Klopfenstein that we saw recently.
507
00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:57,680
This is a very mainstream film.
508
00:37:57,680 --> 00:38:02,600
I'm sure all of our listeners have heard of Klopfenstein.
509
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:03,600
I was thinking about that.
510
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:08,600
It's a bit different, though, because but there is something to it that feels inherently
511
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:11,640
similar, even though it's very, very different, very, very different.
512
00:38:11,640 --> 00:38:16,640
But it became unclear how much film footage we see.
513
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,600
And we also see in this film.
514
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:20,920
I can't remember the name of it right now.
515
00:38:20,920 --> 00:38:22,000
Yeah, me neither.
516
00:38:22,000 --> 00:38:26,800
Him editing and the edits becoming also part of the film.
517
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:30,040
But it's done in a different in a slightly different way.
518
00:38:30,040 --> 00:38:31,520
Yeah, I think so, too.
519
00:38:31,520 --> 00:38:37,000
And we have the I think we can give that away.
520
00:38:37,000 --> 00:38:46,720
This repetition element that we've addressed here a lot is also founded in the theory of
521
00:38:46,720 --> 00:38:50,440
Kierkegaard, who has written this book, Repetition.
522
00:38:50,440 --> 00:38:57,320
And this book is actually given to the female lead by her father.
523
00:38:57,320 --> 00:38:59,360
And I really like this line.
524
00:38:59,360 --> 00:39:08,160
I don't know if you recall when when he when she addressed this idea that they want to
525
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:14,120
go with his idea of doing this divorce celebration.
526
00:39:14,120 --> 00:39:16,800
And he gives her a lot of theory.
527
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:21,880
Yes, he gives her a lot of books about cinema, reading lists, what have you.
528
00:39:21,880 --> 00:39:22,880
Yeah, exactly.
529
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:28,520
And then she says, oh, yeah, you're giving me an entire bibliography here.
530
00:39:28,520 --> 00:39:34,400
And he says, well, as a father, isn't that what I'm supposed to do?
531
00:39:34,400 --> 00:39:35,400
Very fun.
532
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:36,400
Yeah.
533
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:45,040
And this is this idea, then it's almost like a thesis statement of the film that the happy
534
00:39:45,040 --> 00:39:51,240
love comes through repetition, that the ongoing repetitions is what gives you some sort of
535
00:39:51,240 --> 00:39:58,800
satisfaction and that these more like unique encounters are bound to make you depressed
536
00:39:58,800 --> 00:40:02,120
because you think, oh, I want to experience that again.
537
00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:09,920
Whereas if you can find pleasure in repeating the same things again and again, you might
538
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:11,760
be more closer.
539
00:40:11,760 --> 00:40:14,080
You might be closer to happiness.
540
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:16,360
I found that compelling in any case.
541
00:40:16,360 --> 00:40:20,320
There are a million ways, I think, to talk about that.
542
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:26,780
I personally don't feel that the film really went to the depths of exploring that.
543
00:40:26,780 --> 00:40:34,620
And it stayed more on the surface level of being very warm and and comical.
544
00:40:34,620 --> 00:40:41,880
But I do very much like that ultimate theory or considering that theory of repetition as
545
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:52,800
a means of finding a ritual of pleasure or ritual of routine that gives you some form
546
00:40:52,800 --> 00:40:55,720
of grounding, just being grounded.
547
00:40:55,720 --> 00:41:02,840
Yeah, and in that respect, they also refer to Liv Ullmann and Ingmar Bergman and this
548
00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:08,940
game they had that they would sort of rate every day and they would either cross the
549
00:41:08,940 --> 00:41:13,640
day out or they would give it a heart or something like that, the system.
550
00:41:13,640 --> 00:41:19,640
And yeah, so you could see that the film also has a lot of knowledge to share about cinema.
551
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:24,160
And yeah, that's really one of my favorites of the festival.
552
00:41:24,160 --> 00:41:30,280
And good to see that the Kansan continues to be one of the more interesting sections
553
00:41:30,280 --> 00:41:32,080
here at the festival.
554
00:41:32,080 --> 00:41:36,360
Yeah, I think we have time for perhaps one more film.
555
00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,280
So I leave that to you, what you would like to.
556
00:41:40,280 --> 00:41:45,200
So we haven't really talked much about in competition films.
557
00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:52,320
And I was wondering if you had any hot takes, any quick takes, any reactions or any instinctive
558
00:41:52,320 --> 00:41:56,520
feelings about some of the ones that you've seen thus far?
559
00:41:56,520 --> 00:42:07,280
I think so far for me, it has rather been a disappointing year with regards to competition.
560
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:12,600
But today I did see the Sean Baker and that was clearly the standout so far as I had hoped
561
00:42:12,600 --> 00:42:13,600
it to be.
562
00:42:13,600 --> 00:42:22,360
Yeah, a lot of rather, I don't know, films that were either without ambition, I felt,
563
00:42:22,360 --> 00:42:29,840
like there was this film from Romania, I even forgot the title.
564
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:30,840
Three kilometers (to the End of the World*)
565
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:31,840
Yeah, exactly.
566
00:42:31,840 --> 00:42:37,720
That fell, you know, it was about, I mean, it had an interesting idea, but it was so
567
00:42:37,720 --> 00:42:45,000
transparent that I don't think that it challenged, you know, our outlook on homophobia in these
568
00:42:45,000 --> 00:42:54,180
like rural states, like rural regions of the country, especially it had this sort of premise
569
00:42:54,180 --> 00:43:01,320
that the victim becomes or is seen as the perpetrator.
570
00:43:01,320 --> 00:43:08,520
And yeah, I think I won't go into that, but yeah, it's, maybe I can, it's just this idea
571
00:43:08,520 --> 00:43:18,160
that there is this adolescent boy who apparently has some relation, like homosexual relations
572
00:43:18,160 --> 00:43:30,480
and this is, but he is also beaten very, beaten down very harshly by some rowdies there who
573
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:39,840
just, because he kisses another boy and then he is clearly the victim here, but once the
574
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:45,480
parents who are, you know, who file a complaint, is that what do you say?
575
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:46,640
No, not a complaint, right?
576
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:49,600
Who file, who, who, who fired charges.
577
00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:50,600
Okay.
578
00:43:50,600 --> 00:43:51,600
Press charges.
579
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:52,600
Yeah.
580
00:43:52,600 --> 00:43:58,860
Who press charges once they find out what their son did, that he kissed another boy,
581
00:43:58,860 --> 00:44:09,640
and they try to cover this all up, you know, and try to, try to stay away from these charges
582
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:18,200
because once they are brought to the public, his homosexuality will also become public.
583
00:44:18,200 --> 00:44:23,680
So, it's like conceptually interesting, but it's so transparent that it doesn't, you know,
584
00:44:23,680 --> 00:44:27,040
it doesn't, it didn't leave a mark on me.
585
00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:31,280
Speaking of conceptually interesting and not necessarily leaving a mark, unfortunately
586
00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:35,240
I would have to say that about Armand as well, but I think it will leave a little bit of
587
00:44:35,240 --> 00:44:36,240
a mark.
588
00:44:36,240 --> 00:44:40,840
There have been a lot of films, sorry to just pivot, but there have been a lot of films
589
00:44:40,840 --> 00:44:46,720
this year at Cannes that seem to be discussing education in some sense.
590
00:44:46,720 --> 00:44:55,080
I mean, I think that is also the usual, but Armand particularly was a Norwegian film that
591
00:44:55,080 --> 00:45:01,880
was by, I believe, a debut feature from Hovdan Ullman Tøndel.
592
00:45:01,880 --> 00:45:08,720
I'm not really sure how to pronounce that, that ø. And it appeared in Un certain regard.
593
00:45:08,720 --> 00:45:10,360
And it was a story-
594
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,880
Renate Reinsve as the lead actor?
595
00:45:12,880 --> 00:45:13,880
Yes.
596
00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:14,880
Yes.
597
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:20,080
Renate Reinsve as lead actor who we've seen most recently in The Worst Person in the World
598
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,360
as well as a Berlinale film.
599
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:29,240
Yeah, and one can tell how he got her as the lead actor because apparently he also was
600
00:45:29,240 --> 00:45:33,600
assistant director for Joachim Trier for Thelma.
601
00:45:33,600 --> 00:45:35,640
I think it starts promising, no?
602
00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:37,160
It starts quite promising.
603
00:45:37,160 --> 00:45:47,320
It's a story about parents who are brought to talk into an unofficial parent-teacher
604
00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:52,680
conference, but meeting rather, to discuss their children's behavior.
605
00:45:52,680 --> 00:46:02,280
And Renate's character is basically a mother of the boy who is allegedly sexually assaulted,
606
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:05,860
another boy of six years old in the classroom.
607
00:46:05,860 --> 00:46:11,200
We never hear from the two boys directly, but we instead hear from the mediation process
608
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:20,800
that occurs, which first starts from the new incoming sort of homeroom teacher, and then
609
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:23,280
the other teachers get involved.
610
00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:28,440
And we slowly see how everyone, we understand their relation to one another.
611
00:46:28,440 --> 00:46:35,240
And the idea of Renate Reinsve's character as a single mother in some sense is put on
612
00:46:35,240 --> 00:46:37,280
trial.
613
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:42,160
And there are also other aspects that are questioning how are we supposed to really
614
00:46:42,160 --> 00:46:44,200
approach this sort of an incident?
615
00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:46,160
How do we even prove it, number one?
616
00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:49,120
Is it just an allegation?
617
00:46:49,120 --> 00:46:54,480
The boy who has been potentially attacked comes home to his parents one day, and the
618
00:46:54,480 --> 00:47:02,360
parents then relay and complain to the teachers what they understand to have happened to the
619
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:03,720
boy.
620
00:47:03,720 --> 00:47:09,400
And different parts come out here and there in terms of trying to fill out the story,
621
00:47:09,400 --> 00:47:14,320
and there's different weight that's given to all the characters to give them some form
622
00:47:14,320 --> 00:47:17,240
of depth.
623
00:47:17,240 --> 00:47:24,200
And ultimately, it became a bit for me like a Scandinavian drama.
624
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:30,200
I think that they often are very good, like a TV drama that you might see on Thursday
625
00:47:30,200 --> 00:47:32,640
night on ARTE.
626
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:38,440
But it did also remind me of another TV drama I'd seen that's called I think The Twelve (De Twaalf), which
627
00:47:38,440 --> 00:47:44,840
is about a mother, but maybe it's Danish (correction: Belgian*), but which is about a mother who is accused
628
00:47:44,840 --> 00:47:47,400
of having murdered her daughter.
629
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:54,320
And so the first part has very interesting tension, very interesting issues are raised.
630
00:47:54,320 --> 00:47:57,240
And I was wondering, how did you find it?
631
00:47:57,240 --> 00:48:00,160
Yeah, I think the first part is really great.
632
00:48:00,160 --> 00:48:05,040
I thought we're into, in for a great film, actually.
633
00:48:05,040 --> 00:48:11,400
But I find it almost insane how it develops.
634
00:48:11,400 --> 00:48:20,400
It sort of starts like an Ibsen play, and it becomes more and more soap opera.
635
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:26,520
The length in which it does that, I find it hard to believe what the film does toward
636
00:48:26,520 --> 00:48:34,080
the end, where you all know these scenes where characters and the pouring rain staring at
637
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:35,080
each other.
638
00:48:35,080 --> 00:48:40,320
This was my version, my interpretation of a Harry Potter scene that we've seen in some
639
00:48:40,320 --> 00:48:41,320
film.
640
00:48:41,320 --> 00:48:42,320
That's all I'll say.
641
00:48:42,320 --> 00:48:43,320
Yeah.
642
00:48:43,320 --> 00:48:49,240
And there's this scene I think I'll never forget with Renate Reinsve, where she has this
643
00:48:49,240 --> 00:48:51,840
scene, which is sort of the centerpiece of the film.
644
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:56,080
And I think when you see this film, you will never forget that one scene.
645
00:48:56,080 --> 00:49:01,080
Because I can imagine that films have done something like that in the past, but I think
646
00:49:01,080 --> 00:49:02,080
none.
647
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:12,200
I'm almost sure no film has ever done it to quite the extent that this film is doing that.
648
00:49:12,200 --> 00:49:15,200
This scene is really incredible.
649
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:17,960
I shouldn't say anything more about it, too, because I think it's just something to be
650
00:49:17,960 --> 00:49:19,760
seen and not really to be discussed.
651
00:49:19,760 --> 00:49:20,760
Yeah, but...
652
00:49:20,760 --> 00:49:23,280
But there are many idioms that might refer to it.
653
00:49:23,280 --> 00:49:28,560
And it calls into the idea of our emotions intentional to some degree.
654
00:49:28,560 --> 00:49:37,240
But I think the film is very almost cowardly, sort of rejecting its initial premise and
655
00:49:37,240 --> 00:49:46,880
rather moving on to much more easily solved conflicts.
656
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,080
Lower hanging fruit of vendettas and...
657
00:49:50,080 --> 00:49:51,080
Among the parents.
658
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:52,080
Yes.
659
00:49:52,080 --> 00:49:53,080
Yes.
660
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:54,480
Among the grownups.
661
00:49:54,480 --> 00:49:59,360
Because how do you actually react to something like that if that were really to happen?
662
00:49:59,360 --> 00:50:06,480
How do you react to a boy of six years trying to penetrate another boy?
663
00:50:06,480 --> 00:50:09,080
Yes, which is the alleged incident.
664
00:50:09,080 --> 00:50:10,080
Exactly.
665
00:50:10,080 --> 00:50:11,080
This is...
666
00:50:11,080 --> 00:50:17,840
I mean, and at the beginning, I think the Renate Reinsve character, before there
667
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:25,040
is something that seems like mental illness that is forced upon her character before we
668
00:50:25,040 --> 00:50:30,280
go into that and kind of psychologize her character.
669
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:31,600
It's actually quite fascinating.
670
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:32,920
How do you...
671
00:50:32,920 --> 00:50:39,080
Because she is also informed only in the presence of the teacher.
672
00:50:39,080 --> 00:50:41,080
Of the teacher and the other parents.
673
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:42,080
Exactly.
674
00:50:42,080 --> 00:50:44,080
Which is such a...
675
00:50:44,080 --> 00:50:52,760
And I mean, even the teachers before, in the scene before we even meet Renate Reinsve's
676
00:50:52,760 --> 00:50:59,560
character, we hear the teachers discussing what is the procedure for this.
677
00:50:59,560 --> 00:51:00,840
They don't even know what to do.
678
00:51:00,840 --> 00:51:06,960
They're like, oh, I guess we'll make it up as we go in the very serious, scandy, drama
679
00:51:06,960 --> 00:51:07,960
way.
680
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:08,960
There's no protocol.
681
00:51:08,960 --> 00:51:10,560
There's no formula for that.
682
00:51:10,560 --> 00:51:11,560
Yeah.
683
00:51:11,560 --> 00:51:18,520
So, not a film that I would recommend as an accomplished film, but I feel like if the
684
00:51:18,520 --> 00:51:25,080
film had been more daring, if this film had been more courageous, this could have been
685
00:51:25,080 --> 00:51:30,760
one of the stunners of the festival.
686
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:35,400
Maybe we have a little bit of time for a last film and I'll leave that to you.
687
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:38,200
What kind of film would you like to...
688
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:43,240
I think it sort of lends itself to talking to Apprendre, which is the new documentary
689
00:51:43,240 --> 00:51:49,280
by Claire Simon, which takes place in Ivry-sur-Seine.
690
00:51:49,280 --> 00:51:51,440
So she...
691
00:51:51,440 --> 00:51:52,840
So that's close to Paris.
692
00:51:52,840 --> 00:51:53,840
Yes.
693
00:51:53,840 --> 00:51:59,520
It's really just one stop right outside of Paris to the south east.
694
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:04,760
And we follow in just children in an elementary school.
695
00:52:04,760 --> 00:52:11,280
And we see how they are received by the teachers there.
696
00:52:11,280 --> 00:52:15,960
We see what their ongoing daily routines are like.
697
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:24,360
And I think Claire Simon is very good at just placing the camera somewhere and letting things
698
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:25,360
happen.
699
00:52:25,360 --> 00:52:31,240
I mean, I do think there is a bit of a process there in terms of talking with the people
700
00:52:31,240 --> 00:52:32,560
that she works with.
701
00:52:32,560 --> 00:52:35,440
There's a great sense of safety.
702
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:41,880
And this is also following her most recent documentary Notre Corps, which was about three
703
00:52:41,880 --> 00:52:45,600
hours long and was in the Berlinale of last year.
704
00:52:45,600 --> 00:52:46,600
Right.
705
00:52:46,600 --> 00:52:47,600
And...
706
00:52:47,600 --> 00:52:49,280
And in our top tens, I think.
707
00:52:49,280 --> 00:52:50,280
Yes.
708
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:51,520
And in our top tens.
709
00:52:51,520 --> 00:52:54,760
And this film returns in some sense to childhood.
710
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:59,720
For me, watching it was warm.
711
00:52:59,720 --> 00:53:05,520
And the film is called Apprendre, the English title is Elementary, which I think is a bit
712
00:53:05,520 --> 00:53:07,840
limited in a sense.
713
00:53:07,840 --> 00:53:11,720
I mean, it makes a verb to an adjective.
714
00:53:11,720 --> 00:53:12,720
Yes.
715
00:53:12,720 --> 00:53:13,720
Yes.
716
00:53:13,720 --> 00:53:19,840
And there's so many different questions that you can see emerging.
717
00:53:19,840 --> 00:53:23,000
You see first the students.
718
00:53:23,000 --> 00:53:27,280
I mean, Ivry Sur Seine, you have a mixed body of...
719
00:53:27,280 --> 00:53:35,000
I mean, just being right outside of Paris, there's a socioeconomic aspect to the type
720
00:53:35,000 --> 00:53:36,880
of school that we're entering.
721
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:44,040
I mean, when I was watching, I was wondering, is this the so-called average school in France
722
00:53:44,040 --> 00:53:48,360
that we are approaching right before they go to middle school?
723
00:53:48,360 --> 00:53:52,060
The children all come from different backgrounds.
724
00:53:52,060 --> 00:53:53,640
They all play with each other.
725
00:53:53,640 --> 00:53:54,880
They're all very lovely.
726
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,080
They touch each other, but they also bully each other.
727
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:01,200
And they also interact and they talk about things like religion.
728
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:07,040
And we see how the students and the teachers engage with them.
729
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:08,040
Okay.
730
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:13,840
And then there was, I would be curious how Claire Simon herself interacts here and interferes.
731
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:15,760
I believe she did the camera work.
732
00:54:15,760 --> 00:54:18,280
But is she herself addressed in the film?
733
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:19,280
No, she isn't.
734
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:20,280
She isn't.
735
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:21,280
I think that's a flaw.
736
00:54:21,280 --> 00:54:26,040
I think that's, you know, it felt the same to me with Ruth Beckermann.
737
00:54:26,040 --> 00:54:29,880
We had her film in this year's Berlinale.
738
00:54:29,880 --> 00:54:34,240
It's I forgot the, it's called Favoriten.
739
00:54:34,240 --> 00:54:40,280
And the way that her presence is hardly acknowledged in the film, in some scenes it is.
740
00:54:40,280 --> 00:54:44,880
But I think it's strange that you have, you know, short reverse shot, but then the camera
741
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:50,280
that we just, you know, from whose perspective we just saw the scene is now not there anymore.
742
00:54:50,280 --> 00:54:52,160
But you know, it's the same scene.
743
00:54:52,160 --> 00:54:54,680
We are still like in the next second or so.
744
00:54:54,680 --> 00:54:59,420
And I find it so strange that you have, you know, a documentary which then shies away
745
00:54:59,420 --> 00:55:07,440
from confronting us with the documentary aspect of it, of the filmmaking aspect of it.
746
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,480
You mean just in being more transparent?
747
00:55:09,480 --> 00:55:11,520
Transparent about it.
748
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:12,520
Yeah.
749
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:14,560
I think it is sort of hard.
750
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:18,960
When I spoke to someone, they said that they were a little bit disappointed with this Claire Simon
751
00:55:18,960 --> 00:55:19,960
as well.
752
00:55:19,960 --> 00:55:25,600
I wouldn't say that it was perhaps the strongest of films.
753
00:55:25,600 --> 00:55:30,480
But you know what I mean is that in terms of the transparent, that pupils, you know,
754
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:32,760
they act differently in front of a camera.
755
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:33,760
Yes.
756
00:55:33,760 --> 00:55:38,400
And we can see that they make eye contact with the camera from time to time.
757
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:42,720
And I think the thing that she also, this person who was disappointed with, she felt,
758
00:55:42,720 --> 00:55:47,600
which I can also understand because there's a very tedious line between just like how
759
00:55:47,600 --> 00:55:53,680
much is what we are seeing in front of us being performed or provoked or how much is
760
00:55:53,680 --> 00:55:57,760
someone leading these children, especially since they're children, into a conversation
761
00:55:57,760 --> 00:55:58,760
as such.
762
00:55:58,760 --> 00:56:04,320
And you know, like, you know, I don't want to talk about too much about your favorites
763
00:56:04,320 --> 00:56:10,160
here, but with Ruth Beckermann, it was almost ridiculous because the way she said it was
764
00:56:10,160 --> 00:56:15,280
like, oh yeah, the children were very natural in front of the camera.
765
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:19,200
How are you to say how natural or unnatural they are?
766
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:20,560
You know, that's not on you to say.
767
00:56:20,560 --> 00:56:26,200
And I just feel it would make for a more believable experience.
768
00:56:26,200 --> 00:56:28,800
I think I'm sort of slowly getting there.
769
00:56:28,800 --> 00:56:34,400
What I did find those curious about this film was that it unveiled some of the tensions.
770
00:56:34,400 --> 00:56:38,440
So we saw that there were some students who were bullying other students.
771
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:43,780
We saw that there was a clear bias on the part of some students to prefer each other
772
00:56:43,780 --> 00:56:47,400
or not to prefer to even exclude others.
773
00:56:47,400 --> 00:56:52,280
And we saw that some students also came in and there was for me, I did believe that the
774
00:56:52,280 --> 00:56:57,360
students that did express their views, whether they be parroting that of what they hear at
775
00:56:57,360 --> 00:56:59,640
home, there were some students who are Muslim.
776
00:56:59,640 --> 00:57:05,000
There was one student that was very almost funny, but he sounded also as if he were.
777
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:10,360
He said that he doesn't always have time during the day to pray, but as he's Muslim, he'll
778
00:57:10,360 --> 00:57:13,800
wait and then he'll go home at night and he'll pray 14 times in a row.
779
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:15,680
And then another student says, what?
780
00:57:15,680 --> 00:57:18,120
That's what you call practicing your religion.
781
00:57:18,120 --> 00:57:24,420
So there's something with it that's also playing with just the conceptions that children have
782
00:57:24,420 --> 00:57:25,420
at that age.
783
00:57:25,420 --> 00:57:32,020
And I think that that was well delivered regardless of whether how transparent perhaps the filmmaking
784
00:57:32,020 --> 00:57:33,020
was.
785
00:57:33,020 --> 00:57:36,480
But I do agree with you in general.
786
00:57:36,480 --> 00:57:40,920
Just to see how you'll find it, of course, because we can also there are some students
787
00:57:40,920 --> 00:57:43,400
who clearly need more help than other students.
788
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:47,760
I mean, there's something a bit performative too about the fact that when we are introduced
789
00:57:47,760 --> 00:57:53,520
to a classroom, the teacher, which I find actually quite endearing because I can't help
790
00:57:53,520 --> 00:58:01,200
but draw a parallel or comparison with the way that I was educated in America.
791
00:58:01,200 --> 00:58:05,260
And often, you know, when they do roll call, you're just the teacher looks up, sees if
792
00:58:05,260 --> 00:58:08,880
you're there, maybe calls your name and then you're just a little check, a check.
793
00:58:08,880 --> 00:58:13,920
But in this instance, the teacher would name everyone and then just sort of ask, check
794
00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:14,920
in with them.
795
00:58:14,920 --> 00:58:15,920
How are you?
796
00:58:15,920 --> 00:58:21,240
Not with every single student, but with some of them have a little chat, say, take off
797
00:58:21,240 --> 00:58:22,680
your jacket.
798
00:58:22,680 --> 00:58:27,960
But then there's also an aspect with the person I talked to, they said, oh, but one student,
799
00:58:27,960 --> 00:58:32,180
I wonder too, if he didn't take off his jacket because perhaps he only had that jacket.
800
00:58:32,180 --> 00:58:33,920
He didn't have a shirt underneath the jacket.
801
00:58:33,920 --> 00:58:39,280
And there's something about the way that the teachers are there too.
802
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:44,920
And the fragility perhaps of who they might be, like who are these people who are to teach
803
00:58:44,920 --> 00:58:49,080
the next generation and what background should they come from?
804
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:52,960
What sort of teaching methods do they use?
805
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:59,200
One boy asks when they're in geography class and they're learning about different continents,
806
00:58:59,200 --> 00:59:06,040
is it true that they're ghosts in Asia and Africa and the teacher responds, I can't really
807
00:59:06,040 --> 00:59:07,200
say.
808
00:59:07,200 --> 00:59:09,480
It depends upon what you believe.
809
00:59:09,480 --> 00:59:13,800
And there's something that's, that was a very nice way of addressing it.
810
00:59:13,800 --> 00:59:16,320
But also I hope that it goes further.
811
00:59:16,320 --> 00:59:23,000
They're given this, these books of, I think they're given a dictionary or some form of
812
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:28,480
like an encyclopedia as well that they all read.
813
00:59:28,480 --> 00:59:35,800
And I found it to be insightful in the strangest of ways, in the ways that I didn't expect
814
00:59:35,800 --> 00:59:44,880
it to be both on maybe an internal contemplative way, but also in seeing, ah, this is one mode
815
00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:47,800
in which education occurs.
816
00:59:47,800 --> 00:59:52,000
And made me question because it's not really enforcing and saying that this is the type
817
00:59:52,000 --> 00:59:53,640
of way that we should be taught.
818
00:59:53,640 --> 00:59:58,040
There is one student, so following off of Armand, there is one student that's a bit
819
00:59:58,040 --> 01:00:04,400
disruptive and so he's invited to go talk with someone and they say, you know, you can't
820
01:00:04,400 --> 01:00:05,960
do that.
821
01:00:05,960 --> 01:00:06,960
You're a smart guy.
822
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:11,840
So smart people, we use words, we don't use our fists.
823
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:19,920
And this is different obviously from the theme in Armand that happens because it's not as
824
01:00:19,920 --> 01:00:26,560
extreme but still is a greater question of how do you address such conflicts?
825
01:00:26,560 --> 01:00:31,640
Well, you know, that's a scene I recognize without having seen it from the Hutt Beckerman
826
01:00:31,640 --> 01:00:32,640
film as well.
827
01:00:32,640 --> 01:00:37,560
I think that's this is a scene that is inevitable when you talk, you know, when you make a film
828
01:00:37,560 --> 01:00:45,400
on children in schools, like because the aspect of violence will always be.
829
01:00:45,400 --> 01:00:49,560
There's one last thing that I did want to mention that I thought was quite curious,
830
01:00:49,560 --> 01:00:54,160
but it was that the person who I was talking to also mentioned, which was something that
831
01:00:54,160 --> 01:01:00,000
kind of went over my head, that the female teacher was sort of wearing clothes that seemed
832
01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:02,760
a bit revealing for her taste.
833
01:01:02,760 --> 01:01:06,320
And I also observed that the male teacher, the main male teacher, because there were
834
01:01:06,320 --> 01:01:12,200
more female teachers, there was also a musical class section as well, the male teacher would
835
01:01:12,200 --> 01:01:15,440
like rub the students shoulders.
836
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:20,480
And I feel like in America, there's this sense that you shouldn't be like this.
837
01:01:20,480 --> 01:01:25,120
And there were also moments where the teachers were holding hands with the children.
838
01:01:25,120 --> 01:01:29,960
And it's just like right at that border where you're so impressionable, but where touch
839
01:01:29,960 --> 01:01:31,440
is still permissed.
840
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:32,440
Yeah, yeah.
841
01:01:32,440 --> 01:01:36,680
And that is the About Dry Grasses discourse as well.
842
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:37,680
It is.
843
01:01:37,680 --> 01:01:38,680
Yeah.
844
01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:44,160
But I think we have to wrap it up here because our next screening is in seven minutes.
845
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:49,400
We can already announce that our next episode is going to be themed.
846
01:01:49,400 --> 01:01:50,720
Do you want to take a look?
847
01:01:50,720 --> 01:01:53,720
We're going to go to the East.
848
01:01:53,720 --> 01:01:58,080
Yeah, which is to say, especially Asian-focused cinema.
849
01:01:58,080 --> 01:02:04,120
Like, yeah, we'll take a look, for instance, at the new Jia Zhang Ke, which was one of
850
01:02:04,120 --> 01:02:08,960
the better reviewed films here at the festival, certainly in the competition.
851
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:16,280
And yeah, we'll have time to talk about a few other films like the debut, Blue Sun Palace
852
01:02:16,280 --> 01:02:20,560
that I was really impressed by and yeah, just stay tuned.
853
01:02:20,560 --> 01:02:24,520
I think there will be one or two other titles and we will probably have a guest, but we
854
01:02:24,520 --> 01:02:28,280
won't announce that now because then we jinx it and we'll see.
855
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:29,280
Okay.
856
01:02:29,280 --> 01:02:30,280
Thank you.
857
01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:31,280
Thank you.
858
01:02:31,280 --> 01:02:32,280
Bye bye.
859
01:02:32,280 --> 01:02:46,280
Bye bye.