speaker-0: Welcome to Beyond the Turning Point, a conversation about leadership, identity, and choices that shape our lives. My guest today is Dunya Mamun, a Maldivian diplomat, former UN professional, and the first woman to serve as foreign minister of the Maldives. Born into one of the most prominent political families, Dunya has lived much of her life close to public service and leadership. while building a professional past of her own. Dunya studied social anthropology at the University of Cambridge, graduating with honours, and later earned an MPL from the London School of Economics. She further broadened her academic background at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy, earning a Masters of Arts in International Relations. Alongside this rich academic background, Dunya has built a remarkable career Spanning international cooperation, public service, and global affairs. Her professional trajectory took her from United Nations Population Fund, where she served as assistant representative into government and diplomacy, first as Deputy Minister, then Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, and ultimately as Foreign Minister of the Maldives. But today I'm interested not only in the positions Dunya has held, but In the person in the woman behind those roles. Dunya, welcome to Beyond the Turning Point. I am very happy to have you here.
speaker-1: Thank you, Aks Jamal, and it's a pleasure to join you to be able to talk to you on issues of concern for both of us and our experiences.
speaker-0: Yeah. Dunya, interestingly, we both started our careers with UNFPA, but our path has crossed only years later when you were the foreign minister, and I was privileged to serve as acting UN resident coordinator in Maldives. Today I'd like to start our conversation where your own story began. You were born into a family where public life, duty and leadership were very present. What values did you grow up with? What was the environment like?
speaker-1: I think I was blessed obviously to have parents who I look up to and a lot of other people do. We have who have very solid qualities that all of us siblings growing up in that family environment learn from. And one of that definitely was the love for the country and the determination to. served with integrity and the compassion in how personal relations are kept as well. So I think as you would know, Akjamal, you you lived here a number of years. Maldives came from a very backward, poor country, if you will. And a lot of the changes that we saw was under the leadership of my father, who took over as president in 1978. And over the decades that he ruled, we saw our indicators improve.
speaker-0: Yeah,
speaker-1: Yes. Very much the life expectancy increased. The health was really one area where there was a lot of focus and we are proud of what we achieved then. coming from what even in the UN documents, the country was described as a malaria infested country where they did not really see much hope. in terms of development. But we turn the story around. The Maldives is now world famous as a luxury tourist destination. We are also have made so much progress in many areas, including the education of our people.
speaker-0: Right, there is so much pride on advancements in public service, in public development, and you choose public service and in that choice what was yours and what was expected of you.
speaker-1: I think interestingly, though we grew up in and I'm speaking for my siblings as well, in a political family. we were definitely brought up with a lot of love for our country, our kind of pride in its heritage. There was never that kind of a push or any kind of kind of assertion from our parents as to The fields that we chose to study, or even the fields that we chose to work in. So there was, unlike maybe some of the other South Asian countries around us, just because we came from a particular family, there was no expectation that we would necessarily go into politics. And in fact, I didn't. The subject that I chose to study and the work that I started first was not linked to politics. And I think I made a conscious decision to. actually stay away from the government in that way because growing up one of the things that we faced was the allegations of for example in school if you're doing well obviously our colleagues are going to say well you are daughter of or from this family so we were always trying to prove ourselves in a way and I think only when we got to O level, A level and we went abroad could we show the caliber that we were made of as
speaker-0: As well. Right. You could then integrate into that crowd of foreign students.
speaker-1: Yes, yes. And and we could be, if you say, more normal in that way and and really perform and be who we were. instead of under a spotlight and and with people saying, well, they're favored because, you know, they are who they are, something like that.
speaker-0: So there is actually some part of you where there are certain expectations, whether it's from family or from public, and parts of you where you make you are free from those expectations.
speaker-1: Yes, yes. I I think on the positive side, you asked about values and I would say obviously the strong values which were based on the Islamic faith that we were brought up on. And in addition, because society kind of saw you and you were from a particular family, I think that really also held you in check. In check in terms of okay, I have to be a certain way, I have to behave a certain way, which for many people may be kind of stifling in a way I guess, but I I looked back on it as a good start because we had no other choice. And it I think helped us in who we became.
speaker-0: Right. Dunya, you have moved through your careers from United Nations, Women Health, International Cooperation, Diplomacy, Politership, and what is the invisible threat connecting those different chapters?
speaker-1: I'd say I started off as we have discussed in the UN and moved on through how developments came. it I made the decision to move into government and into politics. what has defined is obviously the public service because from the start I was working for development, if you will, or for my community and particularly on issues that I was passionate about, which was gender, women's empowerment. I also worked on issues related to youth empowerment, on drug use, and I chaired the first interagency group on HIV AIDS in the country as well. A a lot of topics which were like there was stigma attached to even talking about it and particularly on domestic violence as well, I think. I remember when we first started a research while I was in the UN and in fact we could not progress with the research because the community or the people who were formally taking a stand which was this does not exist in our country. And I think you may, in your work as well, obviously have come across in many countries, I think there is that hesitance. This is something we don't want to talk about. That they want people to see the best side of their community. So the th that was interesting and challenging. So I think the common theme obviously was very much focused on working with communities to empower women or to empower youth and to generally bring progress in that country so that things improve. And of of course UNFPA's work is very much linked to health and linked to women's health and reproductive health and also rights. rights of women in the decisions that they make. So I I think I came from that background. My initial research when I was doing my MPhil was on gender activism and the Islamic revival. So I my own thinking was that Islam in itself also preached equity and equality. And subsequently male scholars or others who interpreted the text tended to be enforcing the stereotypes. So we had debates like, Could a woman be a head of state? Could a woman rule a country? And this was a question I tackled in in in my thesis.
speaker-0: Have actually showed the example that it could
speaker-1: Yes, I think in our constitution until very recently, the ninety seven or before that, women could not be heads of state. So there was thinking and discussion that led later to those changes. And when some scholars also look back on a hadith or a prophet's saying where they say that a woman who It's something like if a woman leaves the country will not prosper. But what I looked at and what I learned was that that hadith was not a strong hadith, meaning you cannot really attribute that to the Prophet. And y on the other side, from his own life, he had shown how he brought out women to be leaders in the community, to be involved in politics, to be involved in in in many aspects. And then we see from Islamic history how the Prophet's wife, Aisha, Was actually went into battle. So she was a leader of of that caliber, and I think that is there. And also the Prophet's first wife, Khadija, she was a businesswoman herself, and she was hence an example for Muslim women as a very strong leader. So I think that it's not so simple to say Islam discriminates or you know subjugates women, but unfortunately, in the name of religion. We are seeing that in in so many parts of the world, which is something that I am very, very sad about.
speaker-0: You seem to be opening a perspective of equal opportunities and for for leadership. And becoming foreign minister did it feel like a natural step or was it a significant turning point for you?
speaker-1: It was when I left the UN and joined the foreign ministry for the first time, I think that was a big step. And that step I took because I had been given opportunity to work abroad, but for family reasons, I had chosen to work in my own country because I had already a young son at that point in time, and I did not want to break up the family in that way. so I had reached the position of assistant representative, which was the highest level that a national officer could go to in their own country. So for me, going ahead in my career then meant either going abroad or moving in another direction. And I think the politics at that time, of course, Maldives was going through becoming a modern democracy in that way. A lot of changes were happening, the first political parties were being registered. And there was also a lot of international pressure on Maldives as to being judged on our democracy, on our freedom. So I I think my father at that time was also facing a lot of criticism from abroad. And I felt the timing was right for me to support him in in engaging with the world, but at the same time also working nationally to make sure that the process of Becoming a democracy or becoming what the rest of the world recognizes as a modern democracy with a multiparty system and institutions and the separation of powers. That this was a very exciting process to be involved in as something I wished to be part of. So that was the reason why I joined initially as deputy minister. And then of course came the next phase where my father lost the election and it was one of those faces where you're suddenly unemployed and then wondering, my god, where am I? What do I do with my life? So so it there has been phases like that and and I think Dr. Ajamal, you would know yourself as well how sometimes when we are so engaged in our work, our whole identity is linked to that. Right. Our whole life and day is based on that, and then you suddenly in a position i i it it is a shock. Yeah and then we have to learn how to deal with that really.
speaker-0: Let's let's revert back to the times when you might have had those moments where you realized I am now responsible for decisions that affect others in those positions. What was one of those if you could give example of those mom
speaker-1: So I I would say I came into quite a responsible position at UNFEA because we were a very small organization and there were literally three national staff and I was the head at that level and my immediate boss was in Sri Lanka. Of course she guided and gave instruction, but I think I already had a lot of decision making power as to How to engage with the government, what kind of projects we ran, how we worked on that. So that was definitely the case then. And of course, when I came as minister, it was a huge responsibility in that way, where I obviously had the opportunity to make decisions that would affect a lot of things. At the same time, I could advise the president and take the country in a direction that I felt was the best for national interest of for the country, in terms of the best for the people and also for image of of the country. So those were I I I I think although
speaker-0: Especially for a small country like Maldives, it's so much important this foreign affairs relationship with external nations.
speaker-1: I I think we relied a lot on the multilateralism and as a small country obviously we tried to punch bef above our weight, if you will. And I think we have shown leadership in so many areas now, including on climate change, also on human rights and women's leadership as well. So yeah, interesting times and challenging times. I I think one of the paradoxes though, because Obviously I'm the support for the president and there were issues where we did not agree, but I understood my role to be advised, but obviously the instruction has to be followed. So there was one thing I remember, for example, where we broke off our relations with with Iran through there was no issue that we had as such, but there were issues that other countries had issues with our relationship and It was one of the most difficult things which I did not want to do and in fact I had advice against, but there was very express written instruction on it. So although I tried to find other ways of dealing with that situation, ultimately of course I had to follow the instruction that that came from from my boss. So
speaker-0: There must be lots of dilemmas in that position, I believe.
speaker-1: Yes, definitely. And I I think Dr. Actamal when when we met also I think in twenty twelve and you saw the turbulent times that my country went through and there was allegations of coup, a lot of international attention. So definitely yeah, yeah we
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I wonder every decision comes at a price. And you made an example of one decision where you follow the instructions, but there could be also extremely hard, difficult ones where you might choose based on your own kind of freedom. courage comes with a price. which decision cost you the most?
speaker-1: Yes, I think one of the toughest decisions I took was to resign as foreign minister. I served from twenty thirteen November till twenty sixteen July. June or July if I remember correctly. So it was a short term. I greatly actually enjoyed my work and I knew I was learning and I was growing and I knew I was doing a good job on it. So That made it so much more difficult. But a lot of issues arose in terms of the political scenario, because of the issues within the family i i on differences in politics which made it a lot more emotional and painful as well.
speaker-0: So it's kind of multi dimensional decision. You cannot just make it based on your heart.
speaker-1: It it wasn't. it it was people judge me to say it was an emotional decision, but my defense always has been, well, we are emotional, we are human beings and emotion will affect us whether or not we believe in it. Maybe different people
speaker-0: Or is it emotion or is it a value? Let me challenge you here.
speaker-1: Okay, so I think ultimately there was in my mind the issue of values. because as we spoke earlier, there were things that were happening that I was not happy with, that I could not agree with or that I did not believe in. And and I think I was talking to a colleague recently. There's that there's always that how long do you Stay inside a system and then say I'm working to improve on it and I can only do this by remaining in the system? Or when do you exit and then from there try to see how you can influence in a good way? So that paradox was definitely there in my decision because even though I remained in government, there were many things that I found difficult. And the labeling that the government got, for example, on issues of corruption, or on issues of political influence on the judiciary, or how political opponents were being dealt with, or how good was our democracy? Were we really working seriously on those issues, or were we showing something to the international world and our own people and then doing something different? So these were issues I was Daily thinking about. but what kept me, I think, was that argument. While I remain inside, I know I can have a good influence. Now that can be debated, but that was one of the reasons why I wished to stay in the system. But I knew I I had to go to meetings where I was defending the government, which I knew were on things that were not defensible. So I felt Not so good with myself on on those
speaker-0: A lot of contradictions alongside a very demanding public career you have had carried different identities as a leader, diplomat, politician, wife, mother, daughter. So those dimensions and roles must have also played.
speaker-1: Definitely as you mentioned at the beginning, Dr. Aqjama, my family is a very well known and it's a political family. So obviously I already held that role and my identity was so linked to being daughter of and then after my siblings also emerged in politics I was sister of or you know, so all of those were there and and balancing those things was a tough one because and just to be frank, obviously I served in the government of my uncle, President Yamine, and my father was the former president, and when they had disagreements between them, I was already torn between my loyalty to my father and loyalty to my uncle who was my boss. So the the these tensions I have I remember from childhood even because Maldivian politics has always played out like that because we are a very small community where family links are there. And even subsequently, if you see the government of President Ibusoli and President Rashid in our country, they they were related and then again there was falling out between that. So I think it's bitter when when it is family and with his close friends, how the the falling outs have worked out.
speaker-0: But I am hearing here that the main value with your choice was integrity. Honesty. Integrity to both to president in the as you were serving as foreign minister and to your father as you remained his daughter.
speaker-1: Yes, very much. But ultimately why I made the decision was because I believe and I still believe my father stands for that integrity and honesty as as a very strong leader. I I do respect him and I think the whole country does on the example that he shows. He's not influenced so much. It's not he's not someone who can b vote for money. He's not someone who compromises his principles. So I think ultimately I knew what he stood for would be the right thing. And that was one of the reasons why I think that decision came. But of course at a more emotional level, I did not want my father to be upset. I did not want to think because of me and me not showing my loyalty to him that later on in life as well, that in his memories he would think that Saying that it was still the most painful kind of decision because I was I was career oriented. I liked being in politics. I liked being in the position. I knew I did well and I knew I was learning. So when you suddenly have to make a decision to let all that go, obviously it's not going to be
speaker-0: And were you alone in that decision?
speaker-1: I in my family obviously I had but my father never pushed me into a decision. I think I when there was a public kind of fight happening, I thought I should take the so I I drafted my resignation. Still I was not totally sure about it. And then I think other developments happened and I I went ahead with it and my official position which I kind of shared with the public was to do with the death penalty, which was something that President Ya Min had been promoting, which President Mamunapulkayou, my father, was very against and which I also did not believe in because of the possibility for miscarriage of justice and because our judicial system was not that strong and because of the political usage possibly as well. So there were many reasons and And risks associated with it. So that was that was the that was also a a key issue that I could not agree with. Right. And and and yeah, I think we look at the history, so much happened. Despite our hopes for a better democracy, we saw how power w was being used and that it wasn't really serving the people the way that that is should.
speaker-0: Dunya leadership roles as you mentioned can become part of who you are. And was a period where you had to dis rediscover who Dunya was outside that role.
speaker-1: Yes, I I would think so because we become so aligned or we identify ourselves so much with our job position that the other areas in life including for example your family, your friends, your children, your own hobbies, your likes, your dislikes, those things take such a backseat because the kind of jobs we are in and I think Doc Agashama you would know was We were there twenty-four hours. We
speaker-0: Hector.
speaker-1: lived and breathed the job. We were available. We had to deal with things all the time. So obviously you cannot be giving that same time to other areas of your life. And I think one thing that I do think that God has given me the opportunity now, after leaving such hectic jobs, is to focus on what I see now as what really does matter a lot in our lives obviously that is to be there for our children. to be there for our husbands in a way and also particularly parents. And I think we were chatting earlier, women our age particular are dealing with children who are growing up, going off to college.
speaker-0: did you call it? How did you call it our generation? Sandwich generation.
speaker-1: The sandwich generation is spoken about because we are actually dealing with a lot of things at the same so it's it's a tough juggle because when we're younger and we're having children it's a different phase of life, but now it's a different phase of life again and of course there's joy, there's sadness, there's all sides as in as in you know.
speaker-0: And but w while you are very much in it, initially the life must have felt quieter. And what helped you to in this transition?
speaker-1: Yes, def definitely I think one thing I miss and i it's that adrenaline, right? When you are in the hectic jobs and particularly politics is very addictive. And I think like when you don't have it it's it's it's tough.
speaker-0: Addictive.
speaker-1: People now I'm in a detox phase where maybe you don't realize how addicted you are, and maybe once you kind of slow down, you're actually learning again more about yourself and you're learning more how you are with others, and maybe have the time to develop certain things that you didn't have time for, like you know, learning a language or learning skill. And and for me, definitely focusing on my health and my fitness journey has been something that has helped me in that. sudden exit. For example, in 2008, by 2009, 10, I after being deputy, I was again in a one of those phases where I was not employed in the former sense. So I then went into fitness and opened a gym business as well and was able to really work in that. And that kept me occupied in something that I was very passionate for. Even now for wellness and health related things, I have a lot of interest and you know, I I'm learning more and more and I'm able to I'd say influence my friends and others.
speaker-0: That sounds like a dream job.
speaker-1: And we work at our timing, right?
speaker-0: Yes, exactly. But you did even more. You didn't stop studying. It was that time.
speaker-1: Thank you so much, Dr. Akjam, for being the person who actually encouraged me. so after my resignation and I had to literally I did go into exile in a way because there was political persecution and obviously my family was very much targeted and my father was in prison, I had my brother, my brother-in-law, so the family was going through very tough times and the election was coming up, so I and my husband and children, we actually moved to live abroad because we did not feel secure at that time in in Maldives. So that was you know, one of those phases where you you you go into something that that's a tough decisions once more, right? So
speaker-0: It's like almost the cost of those decisions.
speaker-1: Yes, yes. But I guess yeah, part of the being in politics does carry that risk. And and in Maldives they're always talking about, yeah, well you have to go to jail and you have to but the the problem is the politically influenced kind of court cases or other things that happen. And and I do hope and pray that we move ahead away from those and that our country does become a stronger and more stable democracy where We do not live in fear because I remember the fear of that time. And I remember the fear after resigning, and I remember the fear when I traveled out. But then came the election and there was another change, and you know, my father came out of prison as well. And then I thought, okay, I have this time, I need to be engaged. My mind always has been one that has been challenged, and I am also a people person. I like being with other people, especially. internationally from across different countries. So I remembered our conversation and I thought, okay, it's a good time to study. So I went on to do the GMAP at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy and it was a great experience. It was I was a little nervous because I was going back to school after 30 years and more. But I knew that I I should have the capability and that it would be a good thing for me to learn and also be engaged with my colleagues from different countries, a lot from the US, a lot from the army, even the air force. So it was definitely a very interesting experience. And then we had a residency in in Boston, then we had a residency in London. Yeah and then COVID hit. So the rest of the course obviously went online
speaker-0: Timing perhaps.
speaker-1: I think it was good again. It kept me occupied because I had to attend to the classes, do the exams, and then I focused on my thesis, which I worked on mostly in the year 2020. Yeah. Also relating to women and women's leadership and particularly how there were exemplary women leaders at the time of COVID and how they had handled that situation. So I I gave the title Superior by Gender. So it was a rather kind of
speaker-0: Again, as if you are closing the loop. You started with women's development and kind of
speaker-1: That is the one thread that has been running from including in my childhood and and in the other subjects that I studied or the work that I did. And even now I'm I'm glad to be someone who is able to inspire other younger women who want to go into diplomacy or other leadership areas. And and definitely I feel I can contribute a lot to youth by sharing my experiences or mentoring them or supporting them in in in their and and coming to that obviously we know how the Gen Z generation is, the challenges that they face and how the world has changed so much from since we were children, right?
speaker-0: changed even even from the times of a few years back, six years back. The world is different. And looking at the world today, what concerns you most and what kind of leadership our times require?
speaker-1: As we coming from the UN and also from a diplomatic background, obviously the issue of peace in the world and the challenges that we continue to face, the war that is still ongoing, our inability to find solutions, especially to Palestinian issue, for example, which is something very close to the hearts of Maldivians. As you know, the UNGA, the UN General Assembly is ongoing right now, the twenty twenty six one and Maldives has been there and our second female foreign minister is representing the country and engaging in a lot of issues, including on obviously climate, which has been Maldives traditional area of work, but also on a range of other issues as well, including particularly women's leadership. And I think she has called for A woman leader of the UN, which as you know, we have never seen. So let's see if the next Secretary General could be a woman. I think it's time that the UN lived up to its words as well. And obviously a lot of this discussions about reform of the UN and how and again, even when I went in twenty fifteen, we were still talking about reform of the UN, we're still talking about it right now. And
speaker-0: Do you still remain remain positive or hopeful for multilateralism?
speaker-1: It's a it's a difficult one, but again, I mean, what choice do we have is what I often say, because we can condemn the institutions we have, we can say they are influenced, which we know they are and they need to be way more democratic, for example, the UN.
speaker-0: And they are run by member states.
speaker-1: Yes. But then we have the Security Council and the veto power and we know that, you know, those are really the challenges that that we have to address. But I I think one thing I find heartening now is seeing how the younger generation and because of media and because you cannot hide things as you could in the past, you if something's happening in a country, the information about it comes out. And I was very encouraged to see the rallies across the world against the Palestinian genocide, for example. So I have a lot of older people who say, well nothing will change. This will and and I often say, well, at least now we see these young people pressuring their governments. And we also saw in Europe and other places how those governments had to respond to what the younger generations were saying. So they could not hold on to certain positions that they had. And I think I am hopeful, maybe I'm a overly positive person, but I don't think giving up is an option we have because it is our world, it's the world our children are going to inherit. And I think we have to keep fighting on and fighting for what is right. And the leaders of today have to be much more receptive, I think, to f what's coming from the people and to be able to have the skill to communicate with them, to be transparent with them, to be you know, really inspire them. And I think even in Maldives, we can see that if people are not happy with the leader, they work them out. So they have that power. And here we say, well we've got to wait five years every time, but ultimately we'll get the opportunity. So I think it's important that we have the modern leaders that are needed for the day, who are able to adapt and who are able to understand and who are able to fight back after failure, right? And and show the resilience that that the world needs in in our leaders.
speaker-0: Right. So it looks like that you are putting a lot of hope for the young generation of leaders.
speaker-1: i again there's there's two ways. I think we do have a role in in making sure that we are giving them the guidance on on taking up that role. I see a lot of younger people, including in Maldives, who are we are fed up of politics, there's no good leaders, we don't want to be involved and I'm like, Well, unless you're involved then that definitely means that nothing will get better, right? Because everybody's going to kind of say it's not our problem and then run away from it. But I think that that definitely cannot happen. And and I think even in Maldives we are seeing the generation that is very ready to hold the leaders to account, ready to talk about the issues. So those are positives. But I think we do need more perseverance. We do need more commitment to actually see through and stand by those principles that you know that that are needed for our country and to have a strong democracy and to make sure that the people are being served instead of The leaders themselves only.
speaker-0: And maybe instilling those values and those principles to the younger generation as you mentioned. Last time we discussed about guilt, what we share together, guilt for our children in a way that we haven't given them enough time. how that is balancing in.
speaker-1: Yes, de I think it is always then I think it's women who face that more, but I guess maybe the more modern men or men who are not so stuck on the stereotype roles may be thinking different. But I think few men would actually think about is my job taking away my time from my family and how is that affecting them? And I think Dr. Akshamma we've spoken At different times it definitely affects us because we kind of live with that guilt and we think, okay, what could have gone better had I been able to give more time for my child at that age, they're growing up, they're teenagers, they're going away. So I think we do live with it. But I I don't actually regret what I have done in my life in that way. I feel for everyone, men and women, we have to also do things that are fulfilling for us. And of course it's important to carry the responsibility of your family and your children. But if you have the support system around, I would encourage women and younger women to also go out and to have that ability to to do the things and to earn as well. And I think that's that's important. I would definitely tell my daughter that.
speaker-0: And for y for for for any leader, whether it's female or male, I think having that support system is extremely important and with full gratitude to the support system you have had.
speaker-1: Yes, very much so. And I acknowledge it every time I get the opportunity to speak and especially I talk of my mom and the support that she has always given me in going ahead and how comfortable I was to go out to work at the UN Overa because I knew I had her full support and my children had that support. So that that I think has been very important for me and of course the inspiration from my father definitely affected me. What I have seen. I continue to admire his his strength. in how he actually faces and fights for his belief, is ready to go to jail, you know, that level of commitment and I believe his his love for the country and he's he's really exemplary there. As you know, I mean my husband is someone who does not like the limelight and wishes to stay a lot of iron, which is why I barely even mention him. But of course the biggest pillar and the strength that I have had in going ahead in my career, in the successes that I've had, including in handling any of the failures or the difficulties that we have faced, is my husband Shreve, and he has been by my side giving me that support. And I think for a lot of women who do go ahead in their careers or into politics, that is a much needed support because without it it it is very difficult. I mean, for women to even come out to work in in jobs you do need that support. Otherwise it's the traditional roles, isn't it? Like, you know, you have children, you have a family, that duty falls on the woman. It doesn't give you that support. And now again with the younger generations, you see so much more sharing of the responsibilities. And I think that's really nice to see. coming back to also talk about how your program talks about the turning point, which I understand is when you know, people face that the sudden changes in their life and and it's about how how you use it or what you learn from it. I think because as leaders we can also take it very negatively and we can sit back and we can be resentful or we can be bitter. And I know I did some of that, but I had to tell myself, this is not the right way to go, right? And I then learned a lot to be thankful for my blessings that I do have. and to really kind of see those blessings because you got the time to actually sit back and to maybe spend the time with the the people that you love that is really matters at the end of the day.
speaker-0: Dunya, before we finish, I ask my guest three questions that sit at the heart of Beyond the Turning Point. I would like to ask you those questions. what choice or decision has had the biggest impact on your life?
speaker-1: I think the decision to resign from the position of foreign minister is definitely something that had a big impact, which helped me to learn, I feel, more about in a way I would say failure, because I felt that resigning itself was like a giving up. But I think it it gave me the chance to look into myself, to introspect and to have. the self-awareness to understand myself. And then I did go back. I went back to political parties. I ran for parliament, though I may I was not successful. But again, even from that I I learned. It was tough for me because as someone coming from a very successful background, if you will, from childhood onwards, I have walked into my dream jobs. I did my studies. I walked into politics. So I think for me the challenge was dealing with when something you did not succeed at something. So I I think though that's so important because I think hopefully this may help me in what I go on to next. And I think learning from it, the better leaders learn from it and learn from what could have been done better or what can you learn from that experience. And I think it gives you the time, that quiet time maybe we all need, where we sit back and then look at what's happening around and maybe, you know, go from there.
speaker-0: another question. what is one lesson about leadership you'd like to share with our listeners?
speaker-1: I think it's the issue of of learning of learning particularly also through things that don't go your way. learning more from when things go wrong and it's a question of how you handle that. And I think that is shown in history. there are so many leaders who turn things around and then fought back or came back with even more kind of power, if you wish, in a way. so I think that is the resilience, the ability to learn. And those are the things that I would mark as necessary for good leaders.
speaker-0: Yeah, thank you. what is your golden rule for a life well lived?
speaker-1: I would say it's to stay positive. I would say it's to keep learning. I would say it's to also to learn to enjoy the simple things. so that, you know, I I for one was very you know, in high positions, addicted to all the adrenaline and the power that came with it. So I think It's important to realise that a lot of those things are temporary and that the real leadership and the real success in life comes from the ability to accept and to understand and to learn to enjoy the different phases that you will come across in in your life.
speaker-0: Tells about your inner power, Dunya. Inner power vis-a-vis external power. Here we have the inner power. Thank you so much for a candid conversation, Dunya. It has been a real pleasure having you on the Beyond the Turning Point.
speaker-1: Thank you so much, Dr. Akjamal. And it's lovely to be able to see you and talk to you about these very interesting issues. And I wish you the best for this podcast series and as you go ahead facing your new challenges. Thank you so much. Thank you.
speaker-1: Thank you, Aks Jamal, and it's a pleasure to join you to be able to talk to you on issues of concern for both of us and our experiences.
speaker-0: Yeah. Dunya, interestingly, we both started our careers with UNFPA, but our path has crossed only years later when you were the foreign minister, and I was privileged to serve as acting UN resident coordinator in Maldives. Today I'd like to start our conversation where your own story began. You were born into a family where public life, duty and leadership were very present. What values did you grow up with? What was the environment like?
speaker-1: I think I was blessed obviously to have parents who I look up to and a lot of other people do. We have who have very solid qualities that all of us siblings growing up in that family environment learn from. And one of that definitely was the love for the country and the determination to. served with integrity and the compassion in how personal relations are kept as well. So I think as you would know, Akjamal, you you lived here a number of years. Maldives came from a very backward, poor country, if you will. And a lot of the changes that we saw was under the leadership of my father, who took over as president in 1978. And over the decades that he ruled, we saw our indicators improve.
speaker-0: Yeah,
speaker-1: Yes. Very much the life expectancy increased. The health was really one area where there was a lot of focus and we are proud of what we achieved then. coming from what even in the UN documents, the country was described as a malaria infested country where they did not really see much hope. in terms of development. But we turn the story around. The Maldives is now world famous as a luxury tourist destination. We are also have made so much progress in many areas, including the education of our people.
speaker-0: Right, there is so much pride on advancements in public service, in public development, and you choose public service and in that choice what was yours and what was expected of you.
speaker-1: I think interestingly, though we grew up in and I'm speaking for my siblings as well, in a political family. we were definitely brought up with a lot of love for our country, our kind of pride in its heritage. There was never that kind of a push or any kind of kind of assertion from our parents as to The fields that we chose to study, or even the fields that we chose to work in. So there was, unlike maybe some of the other South Asian countries around us, just because we came from a particular family, there was no expectation that we would necessarily go into politics. And in fact, I didn't. The subject that I chose to study and the work that I started first was not linked to politics. And I think I made a conscious decision to. actually stay away from the government in that way because growing up one of the things that we faced was the allegations of for example in school if you're doing well obviously our colleagues are going to say well you are daughter of or from this family so we were always trying to prove ourselves in a way and I think only when we got to O level, A level and we went abroad could we show the caliber that we were made of as
speaker-0: As well. Right. You could then integrate into that crowd of foreign students.
speaker-1: Yes, yes. And and we could be, if you say, more normal in that way and and really perform and be who we were. instead of under a spotlight and and with people saying, well, they're favored because, you know, they are who they are, something like that.
speaker-0: So there is actually some part of you where there are certain expectations, whether it's from family or from public, and parts of you where you make you are free from those expectations.
speaker-1: Yes, yes. I I think on the positive side, you asked about values and I would say obviously the strong values which were based on the Islamic faith that we were brought up on. And in addition, because society kind of saw you and you were from a particular family, I think that really also held you in check. In check in terms of okay, I have to be a certain way, I have to behave a certain way, which for many people may be kind of stifling in a way I guess, but I I looked back on it as a good start because we had no other choice. And it I think helped us in who we became.
speaker-0: Right. Dunya, you have moved through your careers from United Nations, Women Health, International Cooperation, Diplomacy, Politership, and what is the invisible threat connecting those different chapters?
speaker-1: I'd say I started off as we have discussed in the UN and moved on through how developments came. it I made the decision to move into government and into politics. what has defined is obviously the public service because from the start I was working for development, if you will, or for my community and particularly on issues that I was passionate about, which was gender, women's empowerment. I also worked on issues related to youth empowerment, on drug use, and I chaired the first interagency group on HIV AIDS in the country as well. A a lot of topics which were like there was stigma attached to even talking about it and particularly on domestic violence as well, I think. I remember when we first started a research while I was in the UN and in fact we could not progress with the research because the community or the people who were formally taking a stand which was this does not exist in our country. And I think you may, in your work as well, obviously have come across in many countries, I think there is that hesitance. This is something we don't want to talk about. That they want people to see the best side of their community. So the th that was interesting and challenging. So I think the common theme obviously was very much focused on working with communities to empower women or to empower youth and to generally bring progress in that country so that things improve. And of of course UNFPA's work is very much linked to health and linked to women's health and reproductive health and also rights. rights of women in the decisions that they make. So I I think I came from that background. My initial research when I was doing my MPhil was on gender activism and the Islamic revival. So I my own thinking was that Islam in itself also preached equity and equality. And subsequently male scholars or others who interpreted the text tended to be enforcing the stereotypes. So we had debates like, Could a woman be a head of state? Could a woman rule a country? And this was a question I tackled in in in my thesis.
speaker-0: Have actually showed the example that it could
speaker-1: Yes, I think in our constitution until very recently, the ninety seven or before that, women could not be heads of state. So there was thinking and discussion that led later to those changes. And when some scholars also look back on a hadith or a prophet's saying where they say that a woman who It's something like if a woman leaves the country will not prosper. But what I looked at and what I learned was that that hadith was not a strong hadith, meaning you cannot really attribute that to the Prophet. And y on the other side, from his own life, he had shown how he brought out women to be leaders in the community, to be involved in politics, to be involved in in in many aspects. And then we see from Islamic history how the Prophet's wife, Aisha, Was actually went into battle. So she was a leader of of that caliber, and I think that is there. And also the Prophet's first wife, Khadija, she was a businesswoman herself, and she was hence an example for Muslim women as a very strong leader. So I think that it's not so simple to say Islam discriminates or you know subjugates women, but unfortunately, in the name of religion. We are seeing that in in so many parts of the world, which is something that I am very, very sad about.
speaker-0: You seem to be opening a perspective of equal opportunities and for for leadership. And becoming foreign minister did it feel like a natural step or was it a significant turning point for you?
speaker-1: It was when I left the UN and joined the foreign ministry for the first time, I think that was a big step. And that step I took because I had been given opportunity to work abroad, but for family reasons, I had chosen to work in my own country because I had already a young son at that point in time, and I did not want to break up the family in that way. so I had reached the position of assistant representative, which was the highest level that a national officer could go to in their own country. So for me, going ahead in my career then meant either going abroad or moving in another direction. And I think the politics at that time, of course, Maldives was going through becoming a modern democracy in that way. A lot of changes were happening, the first political parties were being registered. And there was also a lot of international pressure on Maldives as to being judged on our democracy, on our freedom. So I I think my father at that time was also facing a lot of criticism from abroad. And I felt the timing was right for me to support him in in engaging with the world, but at the same time also working nationally to make sure that the process of Becoming a democracy or becoming what the rest of the world recognizes as a modern democracy with a multiparty system and institutions and the separation of powers. That this was a very exciting process to be involved in as something I wished to be part of. So that was the reason why I joined initially as deputy minister. And then of course came the next phase where my father lost the election and it was one of those faces where you're suddenly unemployed and then wondering, my god, where am I? What do I do with my life? So so it there has been phases like that and and I think Dr. Ajamal, you would know yourself as well how sometimes when we are so engaged in our work, our whole identity is linked to that. Right. Our whole life and day is based on that, and then you suddenly in a position i i it it is a shock. Yeah and then we have to learn how to deal with that really.
speaker-0: Let's let's revert back to the times when you might have had those moments where you realized I am now responsible for decisions that affect others in those positions. What was one of those if you could give example of those mom
speaker-1: So I I would say I came into quite a responsible position at UNFEA because we were a very small organization and there were literally three national staff and I was the head at that level and my immediate boss was in Sri Lanka. Of course she guided and gave instruction, but I think I already had a lot of decision making power as to How to engage with the government, what kind of projects we ran, how we worked on that. So that was definitely the case then. And of course, when I came as minister, it was a huge responsibility in that way, where I obviously had the opportunity to make decisions that would affect a lot of things. At the same time, I could advise the president and take the country in a direction that I felt was the best for national interest of for the country, in terms of the best for the people and also for image of of the country. So those were I I I I think although
speaker-0: Especially for a small country like Maldives, it's so much important this foreign affairs relationship with external nations.
speaker-1: I I think we relied a lot on the multilateralism and as a small country obviously we tried to punch bef above our weight, if you will. And I think we have shown leadership in so many areas now, including on climate change, also on human rights and women's leadership as well. So yeah, interesting times and challenging times. I I think one of the paradoxes though, because Obviously I'm the support for the president and there were issues where we did not agree, but I understood my role to be advised, but obviously the instruction has to be followed. So there was one thing I remember, for example, where we broke off our relations with with Iran through there was no issue that we had as such, but there were issues that other countries had issues with our relationship and It was one of the most difficult things which I did not want to do and in fact I had advice against, but there was very express written instruction on it. So although I tried to find other ways of dealing with that situation, ultimately of course I had to follow the instruction that that came from from my boss. So
speaker-0: There must be lots of dilemmas in that position, I believe.
speaker-1: Yes, definitely. And I I think Dr. Actamal when when we met also I think in twenty twelve and you saw the turbulent times that my country went through and there was allegations of coup, a lot of international attention. So definitely yeah, yeah we
speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. I wonder every decision comes at a price. And you made an example of one decision where you follow the instructions, but there could be also extremely hard, difficult ones where you might choose based on your own kind of freedom. courage comes with a price. which decision cost you the most?
speaker-1: Yes, I think one of the toughest decisions I took was to resign as foreign minister. I served from twenty thirteen November till twenty sixteen July. June or July if I remember correctly. So it was a short term. I greatly actually enjoyed my work and I knew I was learning and I was growing and I knew I was doing a good job on it. So That made it so much more difficult. But a lot of issues arose in terms of the political scenario, because of the issues within the family i i on differences in politics which made it a lot more emotional and painful as well.
speaker-0: So it's kind of multi dimensional decision. You cannot just make it based on your heart.
speaker-1: It it wasn't. it it was people judge me to say it was an emotional decision, but my defense always has been, well, we are emotional, we are human beings and emotion will affect us whether or not we believe in it. Maybe different people
speaker-0: Or is it emotion or is it a value? Let me challenge you here.
speaker-1: Okay, so I think ultimately there was in my mind the issue of values. because as we spoke earlier, there were things that were happening that I was not happy with, that I could not agree with or that I did not believe in. And and I think I was talking to a colleague recently. There's that there's always that how long do you Stay inside a system and then say I'm working to improve on it and I can only do this by remaining in the system? Or when do you exit and then from there try to see how you can influence in a good way? So that paradox was definitely there in my decision because even though I remained in government, there were many things that I found difficult. And the labeling that the government got, for example, on issues of corruption, or on issues of political influence on the judiciary, or how political opponents were being dealt with, or how good was our democracy? Were we really working seriously on those issues, or were we showing something to the international world and our own people and then doing something different? So these were issues I was Daily thinking about. but what kept me, I think, was that argument. While I remain inside, I know I can have a good influence. Now that can be debated, but that was one of the reasons why I wished to stay in the system. But I knew I I had to go to meetings where I was defending the government, which I knew were on things that were not defensible. So I felt Not so good with myself on on those
speaker-0: A lot of contradictions alongside a very demanding public career you have had carried different identities as a leader, diplomat, politician, wife, mother, daughter. So those dimensions and roles must have also played.
speaker-1: Definitely as you mentioned at the beginning, Dr. Aqjama, my family is a very well known and it's a political family. So obviously I already held that role and my identity was so linked to being daughter of and then after my siblings also emerged in politics I was sister of or you know, so all of those were there and and balancing those things was a tough one because and just to be frank, obviously I served in the government of my uncle, President Yamine, and my father was the former president, and when they had disagreements between them, I was already torn between my loyalty to my father and loyalty to my uncle who was my boss. So the the these tensions I have I remember from childhood even because Maldivian politics has always played out like that because we are a very small community where family links are there. And even subsequently, if you see the government of President Ibusoli and President Rashid in our country, they they were related and then again there was falling out between that. So I think it's bitter when when it is family and with his close friends, how the the falling outs have worked out.
speaker-0: But I am hearing here that the main value with your choice was integrity. Honesty. Integrity to both to president in the as you were serving as foreign minister and to your father as you remained his daughter.
speaker-1: Yes, very much. But ultimately why I made the decision was because I believe and I still believe my father stands for that integrity and honesty as as a very strong leader. I I do respect him and I think the whole country does on the example that he shows. He's not influenced so much. It's not he's not someone who can b vote for money. He's not someone who compromises his principles. So I think ultimately I knew what he stood for would be the right thing. And that was one of the reasons why I think that decision came. But of course at a more emotional level, I did not want my father to be upset. I did not want to think because of me and me not showing my loyalty to him that later on in life as well, that in his memories he would think that Saying that it was still the most painful kind of decision because I was I was career oriented. I liked being in politics. I liked being in the position. I knew I did well and I knew I was learning. So when you suddenly have to make a decision to let all that go, obviously it's not going to be
speaker-0: And were you alone in that decision?
speaker-1: I in my family obviously I had but my father never pushed me into a decision. I think I when there was a public kind of fight happening, I thought I should take the so I I drafted my resignation. Still I was not totally sure about it. And then I think other developments happened and I I went ahead with it and my official position which I kind of shared with the public was to do with the death penalty, which was something that President Ya Min had been promoting, which President Mamunapulkayou, my father, was very against and which I also did not believe in because of the possibility for miscarriage of justice and because our judicial system was not that strong and because of the political usage possibly as well. So there were many reasons and And risks associated with it. So that was that was the that was also a a key issue that I could not agree with. Right. And and and yeah, I think we look at the history, so much happened. Despite our hopes for a better democracy, we saw how power w was being used and that it wasn't really serving the people the way that that is should.
speaker-0: Dunya leadership roles as you mentioned can become part of who you are. And was a period where you had to dis rediscover who Dunya was outside that role.
speaker-1: Yes, I I would think so because we become so aligned or we identify ourselves so much with our job position that the other areas in life including for example your family, your friends, your children, your own hobbies, your likes, your dislikes, those things take such a backseat because the kind of jobs we are in and I think Doc Agashama you would know was We were there twenty-four hours. We
speaker-0: Hector.
speaker-1: lived and breathed the job. We were available. We had to deal with things all the time. So obviously you cannot be giving that same time to other areas of your life. And I think one thing that I do think that God has given me the opportunity now, after leaving such hectic jobs, is to focus on what I see now as what really does matter a lot in our lives obviously that is to be there for our children. to be there for our husbands in a way and also particularly parents. And I think we were chatting earlier, women our age particular are dealing with children who are growing up, going off to college.
speaker-0: did you call it? How did you call it our generation? Sandwich generation.
speaker-1: The sandwich generation is spoken about because we are actually dealing with a lot of things at the same so it's it's a tough juggle because when we're younger and we're having children it's a different phase of life, but now it's a different phase of life again and of course there's joy, there's sadness, there's all sides as in as in you know.
speaker-0: And but w while you are very much in it, initially the life must have felt quieter. And what helped you to in this transition?
speaker-1: Yes, def definitely I think one thing I miss and i it's that adrenaline, right? When you are in the hectic jobs and particularly politics is very addictive. And I think like when you don't have it it's it's it's tough.
speaker-0: Addictive.
speaker-1: People now I'm in a detox phase where maybe you don't realize how addicted you are, and maybe once you kind of slow down, you're actually learning again more about yourself and you're learning more how you are with others, and maybe have the time to develop certain things that you didn't have time for, like you know, learning a language or learning skill. And and for me, definitely focusing on my health and my fitness journey has been something that has helped me in that. sudden exit. For example, in 2008, by 2009, 10, I after being deputy, I was again in a one of those phases where I was not employed in the former sense. So I then went into fitness and opened a gym business as well and was able to really work in that. And that kept me occupied in something that I was very passionate for. Even now for wellness and health related things, I have a lot of interest and you know, I I'm learning more and more and I'm able to I'd say influence my friends and others.
speaker-0: That sounds like a dream job.
speaker-1: And we work at our timing, right?
speaker-0: Yes, exactly. But you did even more. You didn't stop studying. It was that time.
speaker-1: Thank you so much, Dr. Akjam, for being the person who actually encouraged me. so after my resignation and I had to literally I did go into exile in a way because there was political persecution and obviously my family was very much targeted and my father was in prison, I had my brother, my brother-in-law, so the family was going through very tough times and the election was coming up, so I and my husband and children, we actually moved to live abroad because we did not feel secure at that time in in Maldives. So that was you know, one of those phases where you you you go into something that that's a tough decisions once more, right? So
speaker-0: It's like almost the cost of those decisions.
speaker-1: Yes, yes. But I guess yeah, part of the being in politics does carry that risk. And and in Maldives they're always talking about, yeah, well you have to go to jail and you have to but the the problem is the politically influenced kind of court cases or other things that happen. And and I do hope and pray that we move ahead away from those and that our country does become a stronger and more stable democracy where We do not live in fear because I remember the fear of that time. And I remember the fear after resigning, and I remember the fear when I traveled out. But then came the election and there was another change, and you know, my father came out of prison as well. And then I thought, okay, I have this time, I need to be engaged. My mind always has been one that has been challenged, and I am also a people person. I like being with other people, especially. internationally from across different countries. So I remembered our conversation and I thought, okay, it's a good time to study. So I went on to do the GMAP at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy and it was a great experience. It was I was a little nervous because I was going back to school after 30 years and more. But I knew that I I should have the capability and that it would be a good thing for me to learn and also be engaged with my colleagues from different countries, a lot from the US, a lot from the army, even the air force. So it was definitely a very interesting experience. And then we had a residency in in Boston, then we had a residency in London. Yeah and then COVID hit. So the rest of the course obviously went online
speaker-0: Timing perhaps.
speaker-1: I think it was good again. It kept me occupied because I had to attend to the classes, do the exams, and then I focused on my thesis, which I worked on mostly in the year 2020. Yeah. Also relating to women and women's leadership and particularly how there were exemplary women leaders at the time of COVID and how they had handled that situation. So I I gave the title Superior by Gender. So it was a rather kind of
speaker-0: Again, as if you are closing the loop. You started with women's development and kind of
speaker-1: That is the one thread that has been running from including in my childhood and and in the other subjects that I studied or the work that I did. And even now I'm I'm glad to be someone who is able to inspire other younger women who want to go into diplomacy or other leadership areas. And and definitely I feel I can contribute a lot to youth by sharing my experiences or mentoring them or supporting them in in in their and and coming to that obviously we know how the Gen Z generation is, the challenges that they face and how the world has changed so much from since we were children, right?
speaker-0: changed even even from the times of a few years back, six years back. The world is different. And looking at the world today, what concerns you most and what kind of leadership our times require?
speaker-1: As we coming from the UN and also from a diplomatic background, obviously the issue of peace in the world and the challenges that we continue to face, the war that is still ongoing, our inability to find solutions, especially to Palestinian issue, for example, which is something very close to the hearts of Maldivians. As you know, the UNGA, the UN General Assembly is ongoing right now, the twenty twenty six one and Maldives has been there and our second female foreign minister is representing the country and engaging in a lot of issues, including on obviously climate, which has been Maldives traditional area of work, but also on a range of other issues as well, including particularly women's leadership. And I think she has called for A woman leader of the UN, which as you know, we have never seen. So let's see if the next Secretary General could be a woman. I think it's time that the UN lived up to its words as well. And obviously a lot of this discussions about reform of the UN and how and again, even when I went in twenty fifteen, we were still talking about reform of the UN, we're still talking about it right now. And
speaker-0: Do you still remain remain positive or hopeful for multilateralism?
speaker-1: It's a it's a difficult one, but again, I mean, what choice do we have is what I often say, because we can condemn the institutions we have, we can say they are influenced, which we know they are and they need to be way more democratic, for example, the UN.
speaker-0: And they are run by member states.
speaker-1: Yes. But then we have the Security Council and the veto power and we know that, you know, those are really the challenges that that we have to address. But I I think one thing I find heartening now is seeing how the younger generation and because of media and because you cannot hide things as you could in the past, you if something's happening in a country, the information about it comes out. And I was very encouraged to see the rallies across the world against the Palestinian genocide, for example. So I have a lot of older people who say, well nothing will change. This will and and I often say, well, at least now we see these young people pressuring their governments. And we also saw in Europe and other places how those governments had to respond to what the younger generations were saying. So they could not hold on to certain positions that they had. And I think I am hopeful, maybe I'm a overly positive person, but I don't think giving up is an option we have because it is our world, it's the world our children are going to inherit. And I think we have to keep fighting on and fighting for what is right. And the leaders of today have to be much more receptive, I think, to f what's coming from the people and to be able to have the skill to communicate with them, to be transparent with them, to be you know, really inspire them. And I think even in Maldives, we can see that if people are not happy with the leader, they work them out. So they have that power. And here we say, well we've got to wait five years every time, but ultimately we'll get the opportunity. So I think it's important that we have the modern leaders that are needed for the day, who are able to adapt and who are able to understand and who are able to fight back after failure, right? And and show the resilience that that the world needs in in our leaders.
speaker-0: Right. So it looks like that you are putting a lot of hope for the young generation of leaders.
speaker-1: i again there's there's two ways. I think we do have a role in in making sure that we are giving them the guidance on on taking up that role. I see a lot of younger people, including in Maldives, who are we are fed up of politics, there's no good leaders, we don't want to be involved and I'm like, Well, unless you're involved then that definitely means that nothing will get better, right? Because everybody's going to kind of say it's not our problem and then run away from it. But I think that that definitely cannot happen. And and I think even in Maldives we are seeing the generation that is very ready to hold the leaders to account, ready to talk about the issues. So those are positives. But I think we do need more perseverance. We do need more commitment to actually see through and stand by those principles that you know that that are needed for our country and to have a strong democracy and to make sure that the people are being served instead of The leaders themselves only.
speaker-0: And maybe instilling those values and those principles to the younger generation as you mentioned. Last time we discussed about guilt, what we share together, guilt for our children in a way that we haven't given them enough time. how that is balancing in.
speaker-1: Yes, de I think it is always then I think it's women who face that more, but I guess maybe the more modern men or men who are not so stuck on the stereotype roles may be thinking different. But I think few men would actually think about is my job taking away my time from my family and how is that affecting them? And I think Dr. Akshamma we've spoken At different times it definitely affects us because we kind of live with that guilt and we think, okay, what could have gone better had I been able to give more time for my child at that age, they're growing up, they're teenagers, they're going away. So I think we do live with it. But I I don't actually regret what I have done in my life in that way. I feel for everyone, men and women, we have to also do things that are fulfilling for us. And of course it's important to carry the responsibility of your family and your children. But if you have the support system around, I would encourage women and younger women to also go out and to have that ability to to do the things and to earn as well. And I think that's that's important. I would definitely tell my daughter that.
speaker-0: And for y for for for any leader, whether it's female or male, I think having that support system is extremely important and with full gratitude to the support system you have had.
speaker-1: Yes, very much so. And I acknowledge it every time I get the opportunity to speak and especially I talk of my mom and the support that she has always given me in going ahead and how comfortable I was to go out to work at the UN Overa because I knew I had her full support and my children had that support. So that that I think has been very important for me and of course the inspiration from my father definitely affected me. What I have seen. I continue to admire his his strength. in how he actually faces and fights for his belief, is ready to go to jail, you know, that level of commitment and I believe his his love for the country and he's he's really exemplary there. As you know, I mean my husband is someone who does not like the limelight and wishes to stay a lot of iron, which is why I barely even mention him. But of course the biggest pillar and the strength that I have had in going ahead in my career, in the successes that I've had, including in handling any of the failures or the difficulties that we have faced, is my husband Shreve, and he has been by my side giving me that support. And I think for a lot of women who do go ahead in their careers or into politics, that is a much needed support because without it it it is very difficult. I mean, for women to even come out to work in in jobs you do need that support. Otherwise it's the traditional roles, isn't it? Like, you know, you have children, you have a family, that duty falls on the woman. It doesn't give you that support. And now again with the younger generations, you see so much more sharing of the responsibilities. And I think that's really nice to see. coming back to also talk about how your program talks about the turning point, which I understand is when you know, people face that the sudden changes in their life and and it's about how how you use it or what you learn from it. I think because as leaders we can also take it very negatively and we can sit back and we can be resentful or we can be bitter. And I know I did some of that, but I had to tell myself, this is not the right way to go, right? And I then learned a lot to be thankful for my blessings that I do have. and to really kind of see those blessings because you got the time to actually sit back and to maybe spend the time with the the people that you love that is really matters at the end of the day.
speaker-0: Dunya, before we finish, I ask my guest three questions that sit at the heart of Beyond the Turning Point. I would like to ask you those questions. what choice or decision has had the biggest impact on your life?
speaker-1: I think the decision to resign from the position of foreign minister is definitely something that had a big impact, which helped me to learn, I feel, more about in a way I would say failure, because I felt that resigning itself was like a giving up. But I think it it gave me the chance to look into myself, to introspect and to have. the self-awareness to understand myself. And then I did go back. I went back to political parties. I ran for parliament, though I may I was not successful. But again, even from that I I learned. It was tough for me because as someone coming from a very successful background, if you will, from childhood onwards, I have walked into my dream jobs. I did my studies. I walked into politics. So I think for me the challenge was dealing with when something you did not succeed at something. So I I think though that's so important because I think hopefully this may help me in what I go on to next. And I think learning from it, the better leaders learn from it and learn from what could have been done better or what can you learn from that experience. And I think it gives you the time, that quiet time maybe we all need, where we sit back and then look at what's happening around and maybe, you know, go from there.
speaker-0: another question. what is one lesson about leadership you'd like to share with our listeners?
speaker-1: I think it's the issue of of learning of learning particularly also through things that don't go your way. learning more from when things go wrong and it's a question of how you handle that. And I think that is shown in history. there are so many leaders who turn things around and then fought back or came back with even more kind of power, if you wish, in a way. so I think that is the resilience, the ability to learn. And those are the things that I would mark as necessary for good leaders.
speaker-0: Yeah, thank you. what is your golden rule for a life well lived?
speaker-1: I would say it's to stay positive. I would say it's to keep learning. I would say it's to also to learn to enjoy the simple things. so that, you know, I I for one was very you know, in high positions, addicted to all the adrenaline and the power that came with it. So I think It's important to realise that a lot of those things are temporary and that the real leadership and the real success in life comes from the ability to accept and to understand and to learn to enjoy the different phases that you will come across in in your life.
speaker-0: Tells about your inner power, Dunya. Inner power vis-a-vis external power. Here we have the inner power. Thank you so much for a candid conversation, Dunya. It has been a real pleasure having you on the Beyond the Turning Point.
speaker-1: Thank you so much, Dr. Akjamal. And it's lovely to be able to see you and talk to you about these very interesting issues. And I wish you the best for this podcast series and as you go ahead facing your new challenges. Thank you so much. Thank you.
