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00:00:02.720Hello everyone and welcome back to the podcast.
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00:00:05.120I'm very excited about today's episode.
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00:00:21.679If you are somebody who thinks that you might be a perfectionist or identify as a perfectionist and you've also struggled with eating and an all-or-nothing mindset as it relates to food or maybe even borderline disordered eating, this is the episode for you.
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00:00:28.079Today I am joined by my colleague Stephanie Hulls, who is a therapist practicing in Ontario.
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00:00:33.920She has over 19 years of experience in mental health, addictions, and sexual violence.
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00:00:38.000Stephanie focuses on supporting clients with a history of trauma.
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00:00:47.200She values learning more about decolonizing therapy and practices accessing this information from those with lived experiences.
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00:00:57.280Stephanie offers so much in this conversation, and she is somebody that I've spoken with several times just because our client load tends to align quite a bit.
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00:01:04.799In this episode, we're going to talk about what perfectionism is and the difference between perfectionism and just having high standards.
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00:01:10.480We're going to talk about diet culture and kind of how that comes into play for those who are perfectionists.
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00:01:17.840We're also going to talk about trauma-informed care and how she uses that in her practice and again how that shows up with disordered eating.
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00:01:23.200She gives us a little bit of background on what CBT and EMDR is.
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00:01:30.079If you've been interested in therapy or have done therapy, you may have heard of these two therapy modalities.
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00:01:34.400Really, she gives us a good overview of it and how it can help folks.
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00:01:40.719She also talks about emotional eating from a perspective that I think is amazing.
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00:01:48.480And I have been using it a lot in my own practice since because I just find it's so relatable the way she talks about emotional eating.
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00:01:53.280So if you're wondering a little bit more about emotional eating, by all means keep listening.
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00:01:58.239I also have a whole separate episode on emotional eating as well, so be sure to check that out after.
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00:02:11.120And lastly, Stephanie offers us some really amazing practical tips and sort of reframes as it relates to perfectionism and just sort of our mindsets that we get stuck in.
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00:02:13.280The tips to me blew me away.
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00:02:31.919I wasn't expecting as much as she provided us, but wow, if you're looking for you know some more information and some tips as to how to get past perfectionism and disordered eating, if you're trying to work on your relationship with food a little bit, or even just your body image, this is the episode for you.
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00:02:39.919Just before we dive in, I do just want to give a quick disclaimer that we do bring up subjects of trauma.
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00:02:51.280We don't dive into specific traumatic experiences, though we do talk about the topic of trauma and eating disorders and different therapeutic modalities.
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00:03:06.159So if you feel you're not in a place right now where this conversation is going to be helpful for you, by all means save it for later, or maybe just skip on to the next episode if you think that this isn't going to be helpful for you and your mental health at this time.
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00:03:09.680Alright, without further ado, let's get into the episode.
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00:03:24.479Hey friends, and welcome to Behind the Plate, a podcast designed to help you eat with more clarity, confidence, and compassion, especially if ADHD, binge eating, or burnout is part of your story.
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00:03:29.039I'm Heather Soman, a registered dietitian and certified intuitive eating counselor.
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00:03:36.479This podcast is where we ditch food guilt, question diet culture, and learn how to nourish our brains and bodies in the way that nature intended.
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00:03:38.080So let's get into it.
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00:03:43.919Hi Stephanie, welcome to the podcast.
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00:03:45.520It's so great to have you here.
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00:03:46.879Thank you for having me.
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00:03:48.240I'm excited about this.
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00:03:49.199Awesome.
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00:03:53.120We're gonna dive right in because I have so much I want to ask you.
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00:04:05.680The first thing I think, just so everybody listening can understand where we're coming from, how do you define perfectionism and how does that sort of show up in people?
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00:04:15.360Yeah, so one question I get a lot, um, I think you asked me before too, is what's the difference between perfectionism and high achieving or having high standards?
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00:04:21.199Um, because a lot of people will say, well, what's the wrong with wrong with having good goals or big goals that I'd like to strive towards?
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00:04:25.199And the answer is nothing, it's more sort of a relationship towards it.
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00:04:31.839So generally speaking, um, high standards tend to be based on values, strengths, and capabilities.
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00:04:36.079And in the case of the latter, stretching beyond that in terms of goal setting.
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00:04:46.240So, for example, if I value environmentalism, I will have a particular standard of um, let's say my purchasing decisions so that I'm in line with this value that I said is important to me.
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00:04:54.800If I'm evaluating my strengths, I might hold myself to a high standard of let's say um writing a good blog post because I think I'm a good writer.
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00:05:03.199Um, and I can also push myself to improve or achieve a new goal because I ultimately know that I am capable, even if it's hard.
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00:05:06.079So the goal is based on realistic growth.
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00:05:13.279In comparison, perfectionism isn't really about striving for alignment with a value or developing a new skill.
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00:05:17.360It's kind of the expectation that we should quote unquote already be there.
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00:05:23.600Um and side note, the word should tends to be a little bit of a cue for perfectionism.
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00:05:33.199Um, but the problem is when there isn't any room for failure, because we should have already achieved this, there's also no room for growth either.
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00:05:42.000Uh so for example, if I expect myself to get 100% on every test and I do, there typically is no room for improvement or a goal to set.
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00:05:45.360I can either maintain that standard or I fail.
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00:05:58.959Um, and I know because we're talking about disordering eating today, if we link that to the fact that our food choices, food intake, um, weight fluctuations are constantly changing, we can never really maintain a certain standard.
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00:06:07.519Um, so kind of in a nutshell, perfectionism tends to be rigid and unforgiving, and high standards are self-aware and realistic.
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00:06:09.040Thank you so much.
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00:06:10.319I didn't know this.
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00:06:12.720This is really helpful.
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00:06:25.839Um, and I'm sure a lot of people can resonate and got a lot from that because what I'm really taking is is the whole people who are perfectionists expect themselves to already be there at the goal.
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00:06:29.759And I I totally could see how this comes up with with eating.
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00:06:43.199And I also really took away the whole um having high standards and setting goals for oneself about that growth process that people can understand that they're meant to grow and it's okay if it's not perfect.
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00:06:45.519I'm growing, I'm learning to achieve something.
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00:06:48.160That sounds like a very distinct difference to me.
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00:06:50.720So thank you for defining that.
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00:06:56.480I guess to kind of like bring this back into the disordered eating space, I'm curious about your work.
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00:07:04.639If at all you see this connect with disordered eating and sort of like how it does specifically show up for people.
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00:07:13.439Yeah, I'm going to answer this sort of systemically because I think there's something really unique about perfectionism in disordered eating.
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00:07:22.160Um, if I were to work with someone who sort of generally describes themselves as a perfectionist, they typically set their standard of what it means to be perfect.
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00:07:24.319There are some exceptions to this.
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00:07:27.519Um, but in eating and exercise, we don't decide what's perfect.
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00:07:29.040Diet culture does.
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00:07:39.279And because it defines perfection, it can change it at will, which is why one day perfection is clean eating, then it's low carb, just kidding, it's keto, then it's high protein.
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00:07:43.920Uh and so because you don't define it, you can't achieve perfection.
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00:07:47.199And if somehow you do, you end up unwell.
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00:07:52.319The other unique part is that perfectionists don't often apply their standards to others.
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00:07:55.680In fact, they're often aware of the double standard that they hold.
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00:08:05.759For example, let's say someone's beating themselves up for a small mistake they made, they typically would recognize that they would never judge someone else for that mistake or hold them to that same standard.
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00:08:07.439They would view differently.
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00:08:19.680And along the same vein, they also wouldn't comment on other people's proximity to perfection, in part because they don't view any deviation from quote-unquote perfection as problematic in others.
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00:08:27.600However, diet culture absolutely applies its standards of perfection to others and arguably to everyone.
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00:08:31.920And it encourages commenting on whether people are meeting that standard or not.
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00:08:46.799So if a colleague comes in with takeout for the third time this week at lunch, we notice it, we evaluate it, we compare it to the standard of perfection and moral goodness we've been modeled, we praise or condemn it, and people will even comment on it.
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00:09:03.039So the societal permission to apply the standard of quote unquote perfect eating, which is usually disordered eating, um, applying to everyone, and then playing judge and jury both privately and publicly, makes it a really tricky form of perfectionism to resolve.
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00:09:10.480Your friend, your sister, whoever, do you think that it's fair for them to never have insert favorite dessert here?
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00:09:14.080And they go, No, I want them to have the foods that they love.
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00:09:16.399And I go, why doesn't that apply to you?
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00:09:22.960I'm wondering, like in your work, without maybe going into too much depth, how do you address that double standard?
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00:09:24.639What do we do about that?
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00:09:32.480Yeah, part of it again is diet culture um basically tells us that we should ascribe to this.
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00:09:35.919And if we are kind and gentle, we might not apply it to everyone else.
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00:09:39.919But again, sometimes diet culture says we should apply that to others.
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00:09:42.559Um, but we might know enough to not say so.
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00:09:50.240So someone might say, like, well, no, my sister, of course, can have that food, but internally we might be thinking, oh, but you know, it's probably better that she doesn't.
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00:10:02.399Um because diet culture is just so sneaky and there's this awareness that it's not healthy, but we should point out where we think the discrepancies are, even if we don't agree with them.
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00:10:22.080The other part is sticky, and uh, this is a bit of an oversimplification, but um, we have our cognitive rational brain, it's like our little library has tons of useful information, uh, and we have our emotional brain, which also holds past traumatic experiences, um, holds negative beliefs about ourselves.
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00:10:25.440Generally, they work well together, sometimes they don't.
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00:10:32.799And we have this split where um perhaps people have had that experience where they say, I know this doesn't make sense, but I feel it anyways.
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00:10:40.320So there might be the cognitive awareness of, well, of course, this doesn't apply to my sister, and the emotional brain is saying, I don't care, I'm gonna apply it to myself.
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00:10:43.679I could totally see how that shows up for people.
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00:10:55.440Another thing I was thinking about as you were sort of talking about how perfectionism and diet culture sort of come together was just with body image as well, and people's expectations of their body.
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00:11:01.600And I think it's tough because it seems like the needle with body image tends to change.
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00:11:09.600Like we've seen historically throughout each decade, the ideal figure, especially for women, tends to change.
00:11:09.759 -->
00:11:14.559And we've seen that, you know, since the early 1900s, I'm sure even earlier than that.
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00:11:25.759But we see that the needle keeps moving, and I think when we're subscribing to diet culture so closely, it could, I could see how that would really impact people's body image and self-perception as well.
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00:11:27.679Yeah, absolutely.
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00:11:33.840And again, because we're not creating the standard, it also erodes self-trust.
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00:11:38.639Um, that if I do feel good in my body, I have all these messages saying, well, you shouldn't.
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00:11:45.120Um, or you can for I don't know, we had five decent years and now we're back to skinniest the goal.
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00:11:48.240Um and we weren't exactly nailing it the past five years.
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00:12:00.480But again, there's that shaming element of um if you feel good in your body, you're not supposed to, you're supposed to ascribe to this idea of better, thinner, younger, fill in the blank.
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00:12:00.960Yeah.
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00:12:02.639And it's like, when is it enough?
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00:12:04.559Yeah, and it never is.
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00:12:12.559And again, if you do somehow uh uh achieve that quote unquote perfection, we are making ourselves really unwell mentally, physically, emotionally.
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00:12:14.720Yeah, so well said.
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00:12:15.519Thank you.
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00:12:23.120I want to kind of flip a little bit because of so much of your work is is about trauma and trauma-informed care.
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00:12:32.879I I want to know from a trauma-informed perspective, what purpose do you think perfectionism and disordered eating serve for someone?
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00:12:37.679Yeah, I think one of my favorite things to tell someone is this makes so much sense.
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00:12:41.200Um we wouldn't be doing things unless they served a function.
00:12:41.440 -->
00:12:53.759Um, one distinction I want to make is perfection is often described as a maladaptive coping strategy in mental health, which I don't love because maladaptive means that you adapted poorly to a situation.
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00:12:56.159And I don't think that's true.
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00:13:07.279Um I think we adapt to painful circumstances to survive, and where this causes future problems is when we continue to use a strategy for a situation that no longer exists.
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00:13:15.200For example, let's say someone growing up in a food insecure household, they learned to overeat whenever they did have access to food.
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00:13:16.480Of course they would.
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00:13:19.279That's so clever, and I'm so glad they figured that out.
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00:13:25.360However, let's say they're now an adult and have access to food whenever they want, but they are continuing to binge.
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00:13:29.360The strategy is responding to a threat that no longer exists.
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00:13:34.639Um, but it's really hard to let go of a coping strategy that has kept us safe.
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00:13:40.320And because sometimes a threat does continue to exist in our lives, maybe continues to do so.
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00:13:45.600And arguably one of those ongoing threats is diet culture, media, and on and on.
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00:13:57.039Um so to answer your actual question about purpose, uh, perfectionism is often a way to avoid negative feelings like rejection, shame, lack of control, or low self-esteem.
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00:14:04.320And it's often driven by the very human need for external validation and acceptance, as well as the fear of losing it.
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00:14:10.159And this is where dire culture jumps in, along with disordered eating behaviors.
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00:14:12.399Um, so one function is protection.
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00:14:19.840If you're perfect all the time, we feel like we can avoid criticism, rejection, um, uncomfortable feelings, or other negative outcomes.
00:14:20.000 -->
00:14:23.519Um and again, this might have served a really important function.
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00:14:28.240Aiming for perfection has kept many kids emotionally and physically safe at home.
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00:14:30.960So it makes sense to want to hold on to that strategy.
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00:14:40.320And in the context of disordered eating, certain behaviors may have helped to avoid critical comments on one's body by a family member or maybe a peer group.
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00:14:43.279Another function is connection and acceptance.
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00:14:51.759Um, one way we think we can build connection and be accepted is to never make a mistake and to meet someone else's every need, which is impossible.
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00:14:58.240But we aim for this because we believe it avoids conflict and we think the other person will always be happy with us.
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00:15:02.960And some of us learned and were praised for being quote unquote on problematic growing up.
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00:15:12.879And given how society celebrates particular body types or eating behaviors and exercising habits, disordered eating can feel like a ticket to connection and acceptance.
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00:15:19.840And there is research that certain body types are treated better than others, so this isn't that far off.
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00:15:22.639Another function can be control.
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00:15:28.240So perfectionism can create a desire to control everything so as to be in charge of the outcome.
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00:15:39.840Um, the strategy might be used when we're fearful of negative feedback or struggle with the stress of not being in control, and we look, we can find control, which is often in disordered eating behaviors.
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00:15:42.879Wow, that makes a lot of sense.
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00:16:12.080And as someone who works in eating disorders specifically, which I know is a lot more of an extreme version of disordered eating, but I've seen how that response to um the the sort of perfectionism coming in, and that response to being criticized by a peer group or a family member or something can bleed into some of these behaviors around eating to the point where it starts to impact somebody's health.
00:16:12.320 -->
00:16:22.080And even if somebody doesn't have a diagnosable eating disorder, disordered eating can still negatively impact somebody's physical health significantly.
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00:16:28.559And I know you can see it from a mental health standpoint, and myself in my practice, I see it from a physical standpoint too.
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00:16:41.759We start to see a lot of symptoms popping up, and that's often a lot of what I do is to try to point those out to people as to like, hey, maybe you're tired all the time because we're not, you know, eating enough or we're restricting.
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00:17:00.080And then this is where I think you and I have talked about this before, Stephanie, where our professions kind of intersect quite a bit, where I can point those parts out to somebody, and then it goes, okay, but I also don't want to change my body and way of eating because of inter enter different trauma experience here.
00:17:00.159 -->
00:17:06.079And then I go, okay, well, this is where somebody like Stephanie could be really helpful in this type of situation.
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00:17:12.960Um, another thing I wanted to ask you about, Stephanie, is you're trained in both CBT and EMDR.
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00:17:16.720I mean, your resume is extensive and you you've done so much work.
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00:17:26.640I I'm just wondering about those two approaches specifically, maybe more so EMDR, because it's a newer maybe sort of treatment, maybe I could say.
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00:17:34.640For those listening, what is it and and how, if at all, can it support someone who's struggling with perfectionism?
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00:17:48.079Yeah, so um, if I can give a little background, uh Judith Herman wrote a book on trauma and recovery, and uh she designed this triphysic model, which is designed for trauma but really works in a lot of different ways.
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00:17:52.720Um, I'll change the language a little bit just to make it a little bit more user-friendly.
00:17:52.960 -->
00:17:58.240But the first stage is essentially uh safety and stabilization, which means coping strategies.
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00:18:00.559How do I get through my day a little bit easier?
00:18:00.799 -->
00:18:08.480So that might mean psychoeducation, it might mean developing coping strategies, boundaries, communication skills.
00:18:08.720 -->
00:18:11.759And in my opinion, this is where CBT fits in.
00:18:12.240 -->
00:18:14.480The second stage is more about processing.
00:18:14.640 -->
00:18:22.799So great, I've got tools to get me through the day, but why do I keep bumping up against these same habits, behaviors, triggers, urges?
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00:18:30.240Um, and then we would look at some of the root causes and process them so that we're reacting to present day, not present day plus the past.
00:18:30.640 -->
00:18:37.920And then the third stage is um called it a couple different things, but we'll say integration, and it's kind of like the now what phase.
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00:18:42.720Um, what does life look like without these painful memories, these painful feelings and beliefs?
00:18:42.960 -->
00:18:46.720Um, so EMDR would fit into that processing stage.
00:18:46.880 -->
00:18:48.720Um, so those are the three stages.
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00:18:51.359That being said, we don't fall into nice neat little steps.
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00:18:53.519So movement between them is normal.
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00:19:00.000Uh, the best example is the pandemic, it doesn't matter where I was with the clients, everybody went back to that first stage of coping.
00:19:00.240 -->
00:19:04.720Um, so if you notice that recovery is not linear, it's not meant to be.
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00:19:07.119That fluctuation is normal.
00:19:08.000 -->
00:19:13.279Um in terms of what CBT is and where it can be helpful, it's very goal-oriented.
00:19:13.359 -->
00:19:20.880Uh, it focuses on present-day problems and with the help of his CBT therapist, focuses on step-by-step treatment plans to meet your goal.
00:19:21.759 -->
00:19:29.680Essentially, CBT helps us identify unwanted emotions, behaviors, and disordered thoughts and teaches skills to cope with them.
00:19:29.839 -->
00:19:33.839And it also teaches us how those interact with one another.
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00:19:41.599So the idea is my thoughts impact my feelings and behaviors, my feelings impact my thoughts and behaviors, and so on and so forth.
00:19:41.839 -->
00:19:50.319Um, so for example, uh let's say someone is out for dinner and they were looking forward to a hearty meal, but everyone else orders a salad.
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00:19:52.240This might be a trigger.
00:19:52.400 -->
00:19:56.079The thought might be I'm disgusting and everyone is judging me.
00:19:56.319 -->
00:20:01.119The feelings might be shame, uh, worthlessness, fear, or embarrassment.
00:20:01.279 -->
00:20:05.839And the behavior might be to change the food order or not finish the meal.
00:20:06.079 -->
00:20:13.279The idea with CBT is if we can challenge this unhelpful thought, it might reduce the negative emotions and then lead to a different action.
00:20:13.519 -->
00:20:18.160Um, so this can help with challenging some of those thoughts associated with perfectionism.
00:20:19.039 -->
00:20:28.000Out of transparency, I'm not a CBT purist, many CBT therapists are, just because I think it has limitations, but I do weave it into my work.
00:20:28.160 -->
00:20:34.240Um, there's also CBTE, which is used for eating disorders, but I'm not trained in that, so I can't speak to it.
00:20:34.480 -->
00:20:41.759But sometimes where CBT hits a bit of a dead end for folks is what I was mentioning earlier, where the cognitive brain knows it, it gets it.
00:20:41.839 -->
00:20:43.039You're preaching to the choir.
00:20:43.200 -->
00:20:47.519I know this is not a helpful thought, I know I need to eat in order to be well.
00:20:47.680 -->
00:20:53.200I know that if I eat things that don't feel good for my body, I have physical symptoms afterwards that I don't feel good about.
00:20:53.519 -->
00:20:55.440I know that that's not the part that's stuck.
00:20:55.519 -->
00:20:58.960The part that's stuck is the emotional response that comes up.
00:20:59.440 -->
00:21:14.799With EMDR, it uh I kind of call it the brain because it believes that our brain is naturally healthy and has ability to keep us that way, which means that we process upsetting things all the time, except for when we don't.
00:21:14.960 -->
00:21:21.680And if a memory is not stored properly, um, we can develop dysfunctional thinking or experiences.
00:21:21.839 -->
00:21:24.480It basically gets stuck in its initial form.
00:21:24.640 -->
00:21:34.240And the idea with EMDR is we want to unstick it and process what didn't have a chance to get processed in the past and recognize where the past and the present are colliding.
00:21:34.400 -->
00:21:45.920Um, for example, let's say you were laughed at in first grade for not knowing an answer in class, and this memory doesn't integrate properly because you didn't have the right support at the time to help you manage that painful situation.
00:21:46.160 -->
00:21:48.799A negative thought now gets attached to this experience.
00:21:48.960 -->
00:21:51.759So let's say it's um I'm stupid.
00:21:52.319 -->
00:21:59.839Fast forward, now you're an adult and you forgot to take dinner out of the freezer, and your partner, you're sorry, your partner gently teases you about it.
00:22:00.240 -->
00:22:11.039It, even though it feels like a simple exchange, we feel humiliated and ashamed because this event may have reinforced your first grade experience along with all those feelings, body sensations, and thoughts you had at the time.
00:22:11.200 -->
00:22:15.519So that voice I'm stupid comes up again, maybe your face feels hot with shame.
00:22:15.680 -->
00:22:18.160And we can look at that exchange between you and your partner.
00:22:18.319 -->
00:22:23.759We might make that situation feel better, but the next time something bumps up at that again, we're going to get triggered again.
00:22:24.000 -->
00:22:31.119So the idea with EMDR is to go back to that touchstone experience, let's say in this example of that first grade incident.
00:22:31.279 -->
00:22:37.680And if we can resolve those feelings and thoughts of the first grader, the adult won't feel so impacted either.
00:22:39.200 -->
00:22:59.920In regards to how it might help with perfectionism with eating disorders, it might be that you identify a specific event, like someone commented on your body in a negative way in front of a group of people, let's say, or it can be a pattern of messages such as only getting praise when you performed well in school and getting negative feedback if you made a small mistake.
00:23:00.640 -->
00:23:08.720But essentially without getting too in the in the weeds of that, even jar is really just going back, bringing up past experiences that are upsetting.
00:23:09.039 -->
00:23:13.759So that's why we want the safety and stabilization because we're deliberately upsetting people in a sense.
00:23:13.920 -->
00:23:21.039We want to make sure we have good coping strategies to manage that and reframing those past experiences so they don't trigger us present day.
00:23:21.359 -->
00:23:31.359Wow, I could see how that would be so helpful for so many people, like to really help with processing those types of events that really impact people a lot today.
00:23:31.440 -->
00:23:39.759And I I could see how that like could apply to most people, just in the sense of like we've all got something that we're kind of stuck on.
00:23:39.839 -->
00:23:56.400And it I guess I had always thought about it as something that's needed for like big T trauma, like some big trauma that people have gone through, but I can also see how it can really help people process maybe some of those other things that they might not feel it is quite as extreme or intense.
00:23:56.480 -->
00:24:03.440Um, I don't mean that in an invalidating way, I just mean it as more like I didn't realize we could use it for so many different applications.
00:24:03.519 -->
00:24:04.880I think that's amazing.
00:24:05.200 -->
00:24:06.319Yeah, it's really neat.
00:24:06.400 -->
00:24:14.799It was originally developed for PTSD and war veterans, but absolutely in the meantime, we've identified it can work across a whole myriad of situations.
00:24:15.039 -->
00:24:32.160So to your point when we don't want to minimize people's experiences, big T, little T sometimes people feel that one kind of one way to rethink big T and little T traumas, because little T trauma can sound minimizing for some folks, is to think of big T trauma more as uh an event.
00:24:32.319 -->
00:24:41.680So that can be natural disaster, that can be an incident of abuse, and the little T, quote unquote, uh would be more so relational trauma.
00:24:41.839 -->
00:24:48.319So neglect, um folks know about attachment injuries uh from attachment theory, it might be about that.
00:24:48.480 -->
00:24:55.759Um, it might be very happy childhood, but somebody missed a need that you had, and that created some pain points.
00:24:56.079 -->
00:24:56.640Got it.
00:24:56.799 -->
00:24:58.400Okay, thank you so much.
00:24:58.640 -->
00:25:01.440Again, I'm learning so much just from this conversation.
00:25:01.519 -->
00:25:02.400It's it's so helpful.
00:25:02.480 -->
00:25:05.759I always get so much insight from talking to you, Stephanie.
00:25:06.960 -->
00:25:10.559I I know this might be a difficult question to answer.
00:25:10.720 -->
00:25:21.680I guess I'm wondering in in your work and and in this work around perfectionism, whether or not disordered eating comes into the picture, what does healing actually look like?
00:25:21.839 -->
00:25:27.039And I'm saying this with air quotes because I don't know if that's a place people arrive at.
00:25:27.119 -->
00:25:35.200Um, but what does that look like and how do you help clients maybe redefine what success might look like in recovery?
00:25:35.599 -->
00:25:59.039Yeah, so healing involves a couple of things, uh, such as psychoeducation, which I can explain in a second, identifying triggers, developing alternative coping strategies to navigate distress or urges or triggers, um, challenging unhelpful thoughts, and possibly, if relevant, working through past traumatic experiences or unhelpful messaging that influences perfectionism or disordered eating behaviors.
00:25:59.279 -->
00:26:28.240So, in terms of psychoeducation, we might learn about why someone developed the coping strategies that they did, and that's super helpful because it provides context for why someone might be engaged in perfectionist tendencies or disordered eating behavior, and it normalizes why it makes sense that this is hard to change, because I think there's so much shame attached to the things we struggle with, and like I said earlier, I think one of my favorite things to say to someone is that makes so much sense why this would be hard or why this belief feels true.
00:26:28.400 -->
00:26:33.599Because again, we do have this awareness sometimes of I know this doesn't make sense, but I believe it anyways.
00:26:33.759 -->
00:26:43.599Um, psychoeducation can also be helpful to learn about uh diet culture and challenging its language because I know you know I talked about diet language is so sneaky.
00:26:43.680 -->
00:26:47.200Um, and we've also talked about the concept of emotional eating.
00:26:47.519 -->
00:26:58.640I have many clients who will identify as struggling with quote unquote emotional eating, and I think it's such an interesting phrase that we've come to accept because we don't use that language with other forms of coping.
00:26:58.799 -->
00:27:03.920No one says, oh gosh, I'm such an emotional napper, I'm an emotional runner, I'm an emotional breeder.
00:27:04.640 -->
00:27:13.200And that's because there isn't the same judgment attached to those behaviors as there is to eating, even if we use those strategies in harmful or avoidant ways.
00:27:13.519 -->
00:27:20.079So, what language actually involves aspects of judgment or shame and which can fuel disordered eating behaviors?
00:27:20.640 -->
00:27:28.319On the note of shame, you mentioned self-compassion earlier, which is also part of recovery, and it is a hard part of recovery.
00:27:28.640 -->
00:27:30.720Um, again, language matters.
00:27:30.960 -->
00:27:38.559So I encourage folks to notice how they talk about themselves, how they talk to themselves, and is that voice kind?
00:27:38.799 -->
00:27:40.400And spoiler, it's usually not.
00:27:40.480 -->
00:27:43.039We're very good at being mean to ourselves.
00:27:43.279 -->
00:27:47.599Um, but to provide folks with a little takeaway practice.
00:27:47.839 -->
00:27:53.680Um, I'm sure people have heard ways to practice self-compassion and talk nicely to yourself.
00:27:53.920 -->
00:28:03.839But I want to point out, um, especially with perfectionism, it's to try and create language that feels realistic when negative self-talk pops up or those perfectionist beliefs pop up.
00:28:04.079 -->
00:28:09.839Because one reason I'm not a huge fan of affirmations is that they're typically too much of a leap for both.
00:28:10.480 -->
00:28:18.720If someone can't look at themselves in the mirror because they hate what they see, the affirmation I am beautiful is going to be really tough sell.
00:28:18.960 -->
00:28:24.160And it's going to be discouraging because it might feel impossible for that belief to ever feel true.
00:28:24.400 -->
00:28:35.680So one gentle adjustment folks can try when talking to themselves is to swap I am for I feel because one of those is an unmovable trait, the other is more of a transient state.
00:28:35.920 -->
00:28:44.880For example, um, I am disgusting for having a binging episode is different than I feel disgusting for having a binging episode.
00:28:45.119 -->
00:28:53.920The first one is treating it as a fact that I can't change, and the second one is recognizing I'm having a hard time, and maybe I need something or maybe I need someone.
00:28:54.559 -->
00:29:10.160Another part of self-compassion is to find the gray, so not the black or white thinking that perfectionism loves, identifying positive aspects of what you're criticizing, uh determining the root of perfectionalism, and normalizing again why it makes sense.
00:29:10.319 -->
00:29:15.200Um, and then this is a really tough part is practicing to do something imperfectly.
00:29:15.440 -->
00:29:25.359In part, and this is an uncomfortable part, we can't disprove a belief unless we challenge it and gather evidence that it's not always right or sometimes it's never right.
00:29:26.319 -->
00:29:33.279In perfectionism, uh, the idea of success can be really difficult in therapy because perfectionism is so black and white.
00:29:33.599 -->
00:29:36.960And therapy doesn't really do black and white very often.
00:29:37.519 -->
00:29:46.400Um we want to redefine success because again, the black and white thinking is that there's a goal and I either meet it or I don't need it.
00:29:46.559 -->
00:29:51.279And sometimes that's true if I'm aiming for promotion and I got it, that's it.
00:29:51.440 -->
00:29:52.559The end, I'm at the goal.
00:29:52.640 -->
00:29:55.839Um, I might set a new one, but that one's that one's done.
00:29:56.000 -->
00:29:58.319But most goals aren't that cut and dry.
00:29:58.400 -->
00:30:08.000Um, for example, if someone's goal is to have a better relationship to their body, that's going to be affected by a myriad of external factors that are forever fluctuating.
00:30:08.160 -->
00:30:12.480Uh, the holidays, societal trends, bloating, a bad night's sleep.
00:30:12.640 -->
00:30:17.200Um, these factors aren't static, so neither is our relationship to them.
00:30:17.359 -->
00:30:25.359And because of that, unfortunately, we don't say, I love my body and we'll nourish it accordingly, and then never have to revisit that goal.
00:30:25.599 -->
00:30:27.359We're constantly working on it.
00:30:27.599 -->
00:30:39.519So rather than viewing a goal as success or failure or therapy or healing or recovering as success or failure, I like to borrow a concept from ACT, which is acceptance of commitment therapy.
00:30:39.680 -->
00:30:46.319And we're more so identifying if we're moving towards a goal or if we're moving away from it, which is much more forgiving.
00:30:46.559 -->
00:30:57.359So let's say someone has a really difficult day that felt out of control, and let's say they've worked really hard to stop tracking calories, but they start thinking of how many calories they ate that day.
00:30:57.599 -->
00:31:07.119It's very easy and tempting to say, oh gosh, I've messed up, I'm failing at this, I haven't improved at all, versus saying, well, that moved me away from my objective.
00:31:07.279 -->
00:31:08.960What would move me back towards it?
00:31:09.119 -->
00:31:16.400Maybe I journal, maybe I take a break from social media, maybe I eat the thing I was about to restrict, or I call a friend.
00:31:17.119 -->
00:31:32.079And this can help because perfectionism's all-or-nothing thinking loves the idea of your only options being success or failure, whereas we want success to become more about self-forgiveness, self-trust, uh, self-acceptance, and the ability to correct something that doesn't feel good.
00:31:32.640 -->
00:31:42.559And part of what's uncomfortable with recovery is uh we really like a linear process, and it would be great if recovery was this graph that just steadily went upwards.
00:31:42.720 -->
00:31:45.200Um, but it's more like to drop spaghetti.
00:31:45.279 -->
00:31:48.960You move forward, you go back, you go on a little side quest, you come back.
00:31:49.200 -->
00:32:02.160Um, and it's really hard not to view those quote-unquote detours as regression or some type of failure or loss of hope because perfectionism brings up a lot of shame, but that really is just part of the process.
00:32:02.720 -->
00:32:03.200Wow.
00:32:03.440 -->
00:32:24.000That like you just gave our listeners so much in terms of reframes and so many really applicable examples, I think, of ways that perfectionism shows up and even just ways to kind of like have these small little shifts in our thinking that can really help benefit people every single day.
00:32:24.240 -->
00:32:29.440I think your work is incredible, and I can see how this would be so helpful for so many people.
00:32:29.759 -->
00:32:34.640Stephanie, I want to thank you so much for joining today and being on the podcast.
00:32:34.720 -->
00:32:37.200You've shared a wealth of information.
00:32:37.359 -->
00:32:38.400Um, thank you again.
00:32:38.480 -->
00:32:41.680I know a lot of people are gonna take many things from this episode.
00:32:41.920 -->
00:32:48.480If you've made it this far in this episode, Stephanie, please share with us how can people find you and your work?
00:32:48.640 -->
00:32:50.000Who is it that you're serving?
00:32:50.160 -->
00:32:52.960If people want to work with you, how do people find you?
00:32:53.440 -->
00:32:54.720Yeah, so you can find me.
00:32:54.799 -->
00:32:57.359Um, my business is called Reflection Counseling Services.
00:32:57.440 -->
00:32:59.119I'm in Waterloo, Ontario.
00:32:59.200 -->
00:33:02.799Um, but I also offer virtual services across Ontario.
00:33:02.880 -->
00:33:06.000Um so you can find me at reflectioncounseling.ca.
00:33:06.559 -->
00:33:10.720Um you can find me on Instagram at Reflection C S L G.
00:33:11.279 -->
00:33:17.200Um, you can go old school and call me at 519-208-4800.
00:33:17.680 -->
00:33:35.519Um, but I part of what I would want people to know as well about working with me is that um as we talked about today, I'm I'm speaking more to disordered eating because I don't specialize in eating disorders, um, but that I very much take uh a holistic and systemic view.
00:33:35.759 -->
00:33:40.079Um just because it's rough out there, uh it's it's not you.
00:33:40.319 -->
00:33:41.279It's not us.
00:33:41.920 -->
00:33:46.640This system is the cards are deliberately stacked against us.
00:33:46.720 -->
00:33:48.880It's designed to work the way it works.
00:33:49.039 -->
00:33:54.720Um, the system is not positioned for us to feel better about ourselves, it's about making money.
00:33:54.880 -->
00:34:04.319Um, and so I really want to make sure that includes how these systems impact our ability to uh contradict the beliefs that are really getting thrown at us every day.
00:34:04.640 -->
00:34:10.559That's amazing and so important for people to hear, even just zooming out a little bit there.
00:34:10.719 -->
00:34:19.920Because I think sometimes we can get really stuck in our own thoughts and our own lives and not realize that there's a whole world that's kind of leading us to feel these ways.
00:34:20.079 -->
00:34:23.760So again, Stephanie, thank you so much for joining us today.
00:34:23.920 -->
00:34:25.760Hope to have you back sometime.
00:34:26.079 -->
00:34:28.639Um, and thanks everyone for listening.
00:34:29.760 -->
00:34:31.360Okay, I'm gonna stop the recording.
