#361: Dan Gorman (Illustrator and Comic Artist) (pt. 1 of 2)

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Welcome to the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast, Making Art Work.
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We highlight how entrepreneurs align their artistry, passion, and vision to create and pursue opportunities to capture value in the arts.
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The views expressed by guests on the Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast are solely their own and do not necessarily represent the views of the podcast or its hosts.
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The appearance of a guest on the podcast, the venture they represent, or reference to any product or service does not imply an endorsement or recommendation by the podcast or its hosts.
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The content provided is for entertainment and informational purposes only and does not constitute business advice.
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Here are your hosts, Andy Heise and Nick Petrella.
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Hi Arts Entrepreneurship Podcast listeners.
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I'm Andy Heise.
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And I'm Nick Petrella.
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Dan Gorman is on the podcast today.
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He's a co-founder of Root 8 Studios, a collaborative graphic design and illustration studio featuring comic book artists and designers.
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Dan has a BFA in medical illustration from the Cleveland Institute of Art and has been a sketch artist for over 15 years.
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He's worked on over 150 licensed trading card sets with dozens of well-known brands such as Marvel, Star Wars, The Game of Thrones, AMC's The Walking Dead, and more.
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As a comic book penciler, his works have been published in numerous publications.
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Dan is a member in good standing of the National Cartoonist Society and runs and promotes several local Comic Cons and pop culture cons.
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Make sure to visit his website links in the show notes to read more about Dan's extensive experience and see samples of his illustrations.
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Thanks for coming on the podcast, Dan.
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Oh hey, I'm Dan Gorman.
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I love the excited excitement in your voice.
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So Dan, you've done a bunch of things as an artist, and I'm wondering when and why you decided to branch out from medical illustration to pursue sketch cards and comics.
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Yeah, so my original uh intent was to be a uh comic book illustrator.
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And I but the legend is I could draw before I could talk.
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And I knew very early on that I was going to do um some type of art-related career.
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And the question was what?
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Originally I thought maybe I'd be a syndicated cartoonist, but um that you know things things in life change.
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Um but when I was 12 years old, I discovered uh comic books, and I fell in love with the the medium of comic books and the storytelling um aspect of comic books, and uh it was then that I decided I want to be a comic book artist.
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Well, in high school I had a great um art teacher, and his name was Wayne Shepherd.
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Um, absolutely fantastic, saw you know my uh ability and what what I could do, um, but also knew that I had an interest in science uh and suggested that I look at uh medical illustration uh as a career.
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So um I thought that would be great.
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So I I pursued that.
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Um the only there were only a few schools in the country that even offered it as a program, and one was the Cleveland Institute of Art.
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So I uh I applied to the Cleveland Institute of Art, got in, um, and uh ended up as a medical illustration major.
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That was um that was not guaranteed.
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The first two years that I was in uh school, all I heard about was how difficult it was to get in as a medical, as a medical illustrator into that program.
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And um so I uh there were a hundred students that applied that year, and only seven got accepted, and one of them was me.
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Uh ultimately only two of us graduated uh because it's a very rigorous, difficult program.
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You have to go to uh medical school for two years, and it was it was it was tough.
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Um but my intent the entire time was well, who can draw you know a comic book superhero better than someone who knows the anatomy inside and out?
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Right.
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So that was my ulterior motive.
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And uh and so out of school, I I immediately got a uh a job as a as a medical illustrator and worked as a medical illustrator um almost exclusively from 1999 to 2012.
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But in 2006, I started to pursue um wanting to become uh a comic book illustrator.
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And uh I started by going to conventions and doing what's called fan art.
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You know, every a lot of us start out as uh artist alley rats, um, and we we sell fan art at uh at um you know different conventions around the country, and that started to open the door to different um opportunities and and networking situations that got my foot in the door at uh various companies.
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My first published work um was at a uh a company called Bragent Marketing.
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Um it was for two sketch card sets, and that was in 2010.
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Um and then I immediately got um put on a Marvel set uh at Upper Deck um the following uh December, and uh and during that time I was also pursuing comic books.
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So I uh I put together a comic book portfolio, compiled a list of every comic book publisher that was looking for that had open submissions, and I alphabetized it.
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And the first uh company on the list was AC Comics.
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So I sent my portfolio to AC Comics and immediately got pencil work.
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Um so I didn't send uh a portfolio to anybody else.
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So so I um I thought it was a great opportunity, and Mark Heike, who who was the editor-in-chief at AC Comics, taught me a lot about uh the uh profession of of comic book uh illustration and uh really kind of guided me uh in that direction.
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And so I've been I've been working as a as a professional in one capacity or another um in various fields.
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So uh I I can do a lot, you know, uh at once.
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Yeah.
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And we're gonna unpack that later on uh in in some other questions.
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But why do you think it is so competitive?
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Um the field is competitive because everybody uh you know superhero stuff and comic book stuff right now and for you know several decades has been extremely popular.
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And every artist, you know, that comes up um wants to do that work.
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Now everybody um can't do that work um because it requires uh more than just being able to draw.
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It you know, uh being a comic book artist means that you've got first of all, you have to be able to draw everything that exists in in existence.
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You also have to be have the imagination to draw stuff that doesn't exist, um, and you have to do it in a realistic way, um, and keep and be great at perspective, be great at anatomy.
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But ultimately, the key to being a comic book artist is storytelling.
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You have to be able to tell a story, and that is the most difficult part uh for a lot of artists.
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But everybody wants to do it because it's it's you know it's very popular right now.
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Um, you know, superheroes and and and comic book related stuff is just really, really, really popular.
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Yeah, I know many of my students at the uh King City Art Institute have their own comics and and dream of publishing their own comics.
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And um a lot of them are using, and I I can't remember the name, but I bet you'll you'll know it.
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It there's like an online comic publisher.
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It's sort of there's sort of two tiers.
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There's people can contribute their stuff, but then there's also the next tier where the the company actually helps a sign.
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Yeah, there's yeah, there's a couple.
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Um and and I yeah, I think I know what you're talking about.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, sorry.
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The names the names escaping me, and my students will probably think I'm well.
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I mean, there's there's deviant art, which has been uh uh you know popular for a lot of artists.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, but anyway, anyways, uh this I I I I love that that approach that you that you talked about.
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Like, okay, well, who's accepting open calls?
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I'm gonna make a list and I'm just gonna start going down that list.
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That's such a seems seems like such an obvious step, but I think it's one that um it may be not may not be so obvious to to people who are just like aspiring to get their comics or to draw comics or whatever.
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Yeah, it you know the uh be being successful in this field re requires I tell my students this all the time.
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Being successful in this field requires that um you have a business mindset, that you're organized, um, and that you um that you hit your deadlines.
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You not only do you have to do quality work, but you also have to be a quality person.
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And people don't, you know, most of the opportunities that I've come from have come from the relationships that I've formed um within the industry over time.
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And you know, I have gone to conventions and the convention may not have been that great um financially, but I ultimately always made a connection that led to something down the road.
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And being likable and being someone that people want to work with gives you an edge, even if you're not the greatest artist in the world.
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Yeah, yeah.
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That's anything that's yeah, go ahead.
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Yeah, I was gonna say before you ask your your next question, I just had one quick follow-up question since we're talking about it.
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You you had mentioned open calls.
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So if you have students or maybe other people interested in doing this, where do they post those open calls?
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Where can one find that information?
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Yeah, so you have to you have to do your own due diligence, you have to do your own digging.
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Um, you have to be proactive.
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You know, that's that's what I did.
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I um, you know, I went out on on the internet and I looked up every publisher that I could find.
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I found a list um of publishers that were currently you know publishing work at the time.
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This was back in 2010, and uh, and I just I just started tracking down emails, you know, anybody's email that I could find, um, any editor's email that I could find.
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And then once um once I started getting involved in social media and promoting my work on social media, I started to to learn that um through social media networking, you know, if you can't leave your house or you don't have the you know ability to go to conventions and physically network, you can network you know online and you you can befriend you know people in the industry who will offer you you know opportunities.
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I mean, I almost every single opportunity I've ever come from has come directly from my network.
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And now over you know what, two decades of doing this, two decades plus, my network is incredibly vast.
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And so um, you know, and people know that I'm reliable, and that's what you have to do.
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You have to establish a reputation of being good, reliable, um, and easy to work with.
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And that's that's the key.
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Gotcha.
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So some detective work.
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There's not a clearinghouse, like a call for paper.
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Okay.
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There isn't.
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There isn't.
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You just have to go out there and and and dig.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And that's I think that's such a powerful message, too.
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It's like, of course, you have to be good, right?
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Yeah.
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Do do good work, but that alone is not enough, right?
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There's much, there's it's the the networking, the people skills, the professional skills, those sorts of things.
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Yeah.
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And so you've done as as we've been talking about, you've done a lot of different things from um from uh medical illustration, sketch cards, comics, um weekly web comics, which we might I think we'll probably talk about that here in a little bit.
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Uh was there a point sort of where you started thinking about like this isn't these aren't just like one-off things, but as a collective, like this is what it takes to to be uh to make a living as a as an illustrator, as a as a comic book artist?
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Well, my my intention was always to figure out what it took to make a living as a comic book artist.
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And so these are these are the things that I learned you know over time.
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And and I had, you know, early on in my career, I had a paranoia that I wasn't ever going to get any work.
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Sure.
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And so I um I I decided that you know there's a school of thought that you know do one thing and be great at it.
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And if you're good, if you're okay at at you know several things, you're not great at anything.
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But I tend to disagree, disagree with that.
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The more the more you can do, the more um tricks that you have in your bag, the more opportunities that you're going to get.
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And practice and repetition in all of those things helps you become good at them.
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And over years you will you will accumulate, you know, uh a proficiency in a lot of different things.
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And so I can I can cover a lot of ground, just you know, just by myself.
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And um, you know, I I I intent that was my intent.
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My intent was to if a job came up, I wanted to be able to do it.
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Right.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, and I imagine, you know, I I don't know if there's business cycles or ebbs and flows of the of different types of work.
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Uh but certainly like by having different um having different outlets, like it kind of evens out that revenue, as Nick's gonna ask you about here in just a second, uh, over time as well.
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Yeah.
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Throughout the year, through over the months, whatever that is.
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Yeah, so so early on, um, you know, it was there there were rough patches, you know, it was it there were droughts, you know, like you you get a you'd get a uh a pocket of time where everybody wants you to do something, and then you'd get a pocket of time where nobody wants you to do anything.
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And um but that has kind of evened out over the years, and so I I still have my busy seasons, like the fall for whatever reason is ridiculously busy for me, and I don't I haven't exactly figured out why.
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But it's like everybody in every fat facet of everything I do wants work at that time, and so like this November was probably my most stressful and and overworked November of my life, and I've got PTSD, and I'm not looking forward to November 2026 because I have no idea what that's gonna look like.
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Because every year it seems to get worse, it seems there seems to be more work every every fall, um, which was the goal, you know.
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And I remember the days and I had nothing to do, and I'm grateful for it.
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But uh yeah, it's uh it's a lot.
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That's interesting.
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Yeah.
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When you're starting out, having well, I mean, basically it sounds like you're the illustration version of a Swiss Army knife.
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Yeah.
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And when it's when it's feast or famine, it's great to be able to pivot.
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Yes.
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Right.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Yeah, I I that's I believe in that.
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I believe in being able to um, you know, being able to cover a lot of ground and and and do whatever is necessary when that opportunity is there.
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Yeah.
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And as we were talking, you um looks like you earn income from a variety of different types of illustrations.
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And so what are all the types of illustrations you do in a year and what comprises the bulk of your revenue?
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Let's just say annually.
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Yeah, okay.
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So um, first of all, I I work a full-time job as a graphic designer at a promotional product company.
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Yeah.
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Got it.
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So so I'm a graphic designer, you know, 40 hours a week, and then I probably spend another 40 hours a week freelancing.
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Wow.
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So um, you know, my wife is pulling her hair out because that's all I'm doing is uh is working.
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But um I'd say right now the bulk of my income comes from graphic design work at my day job and and right now sketch cards, because the sketch card um uh uh companies have really upped their game, um, especially topps fanatics, in um making sure that the artists are taken care of and that the opportunities are there.
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And um I have I get regular work all the time and um it it's turned into um a great source of income for me um over over the years.
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That's awesome.
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Yeah, and so you're not aligned with any particular brand.
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You'd mentioned tops and and different things, so you just freelance with anyone.
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Whoever will give me uh an opportunity.
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That's that's all that's all I'm looking for, is the opportunity, you know.
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Give me the opportunity to fail.
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That's that's that's all I'm looking for.
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So have you ever turned down a job because it wasn't worth the time?
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So that's my biggest issue is learning to say no.
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Um I'm still trying to do that.
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I've learned I've learned some lessons over the years, and there is a particular type of job that I keep telling myself I'm not going to do again, but I seem to always do it again.
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In November.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, yeah, November.
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Um, that's funny.
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No, this so um I'm trying to be disciplined.
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My goal for 2026 is to be disciplined and not to fall into the trap of that one particular thing and and learn to say, no, I I just I just can't do it.
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Yeah.
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Gotcha.
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Yeah.
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So you mentioned working with uh licensed franchises like Marvel, DC, um, which includes you know, maybe Star Wars, Trek, uh Star Wars, Star Trek, Game of Thrones, those sorts of things.
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Uh Trek, sorry, not Star Trek.
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Yeah.
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Star Trek, yeah.
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Star Trek, yes.
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Yeah.
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Um So uh that puts you up against a massive pool of illustrators, as Nick alluded to earlier, this this notion of competition.
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How do you think about um we we uh talked about this a little bit, but how do you think about competition in that space and what have you learned about staying visible to those art directors and maintaining those relationships?
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Yeah, so um so again, it kind of it kind of is its own thing as long as you are do quality work, hit your deadline, and are a good and are easy to work with.
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If you have those three traits, the work is going to continually come to you because people are gonna know that they can rely on you to get done.
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There are a lot of uh artists out there who want to do the work, but they aren't organized enough to hit the deadline or they've got an attitude problem, or you know, whatever, whatever the issue is, there's a reason that they're not getting the work.
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But if you if you cover those three things, you're always gonna have work because people are always gonna work wanna work with you, and and people are gonna know that you you are reliable and do quality work.
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I that's been my my biggest you know strength has been my personality and my ability to uh get along with pretty much everyone.
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And um, you know, I enjoy new, I enjoy new things.
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But when it comes to when it comes to competition, I don't look at competition as I'm not really competing with anyone.
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The only person I'm competing with is myself.
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I'm only trying to get better than me uh that I was yesterday.
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I want to be a better illustrator, you know, today than I was yesterday, and and so on and so forth.
00:19:34.240 --> 00:19:37.279
And in the community, we really do support each other.
00:19:37.279 --> 00:19:46.480
You know, we we you know, like I said, most of my opportunities have come from, you know, one artist recommending me for this or another artist recommending me for that.
00:19:46.480 --> 00:19:48.319
And in turn, I've done the same things.
00:19:48.319 --> 00:19:50.480
I've recommended artists for things.
00:19:50.480 --> 00:19:53.920
And um we don't we don't really compete with each other.
00:19:53.920 --> 00:19:59.759
I think there's a certain um there's a certain amount of hey, you know, um I I think I can do it.
00:19:59.759 --> 00:20:03.680
Better than this guy, or you know, why is this guy getting work that I'm not getting?
00:20:03.680 --> 00:20:05.119
You know, that type of thing.
00:20:05.119 --> 00:20:15.440
But ultimately, in the end, um, the community is very supportive, and it's especially um, you know, banding together right now against AI.
00:20:15.599 --> 00:20:20.880
So we're all we're all common common nemesis.
00:20:21.279 --> 00:20:21.519
Yeah.
00:20:21.519 --> 00:20:26.559
I don't really think we we compete as much as we um support.
00:20:26.559 --> 00:20:28.640
So yeah, that's that's how it is.
00:20:28.720 --> 00:20:30.160
Aaron Ross Powell And you said something earlier.
00:20:30.160 --> 00:20:33.519
It was kind of like um it makes makes me think about something you've been saying.
00:20:33.519 --> 00:20:42.000
Once you get sort of in, maintaining that relationship and making sure you're delivering exactly what what's expected on time and and again being good to work with.
00:20:42.000 --> 00:20:46.079
You said something earlier about give some you know having the opportunity to fail.
00:20:46.079 --> 00:21:00.960
Like like it it's it's once you get in, it sounds like anyways, once you get in, those you can maintain those relationships, it's really your your job to lose if if if you don't fulfill one of those three things that you just mentioned.
00:21:01.359 --> 00:21:16.319
Yeah, and um, you know, not the hardest the hardest thing for me was you know, early in my career I had sort of a a personal disappointment that I took very um, you know, I i i it affected me um quite a lot.
00:21:16.319 --> 00:21:27.519
Um and then it took it took a while, but there's one particular property, which I'm not gonna name anybody, but there's one particular property that just doesn't like me.
00:21:27.519 --> 00:21:30.240
There's one license that just doesn't like me.
00:21:30.240 --> 00:21:33.839
And um I have failed twice with them.
00:21:33.839 --> 00:21:55.200
And um, you know, but it it is what it is, and I don't, you know, I don't know what all of the factors are into into why, you know, it didn't work out there, but um I I what I learned is that it doesn't really reflect on me as an illustrator, you know, failure doesn't reflect on on you as as a working artist.
00:21:55.200 --> 00:21:59.359
There really is no failure, it's just learning how not to do something, you know.
00:21:59.359 --> 00:22:12.640
And if you can if you can create work and learn both creative and personal and business lessons from that piece, it's valuable even if it doesn't end up being what you expected it.
00:22:13.119 --> 00:22:13.680
That's great.
00:22:13.839 --> 00:22:15.039
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:15.039 --> 00:22:19.920
And we won't get into it now, but you had mentioned you had mentioned AI.
00:22:19.920 --> 00:22:22.480
And I've just been thinking about this a lot.
00:22:22.480 --> 00:22:27.920
And I think at least maybe in the performing arts, AI might actually be better for performing arts.
00:22:27.920 --> 00:22:34.559
Um to have live musicians up there, you know, artists who are doing things live.
00:22:34.880 --> 00:22:41.119
Yeah, so I I am I am a staunch, you know, anti-generative AI person.
00:22:41.119 --> 00:22:47.519
Um I I don't feel that there's any room for robots in the creative industry.
00:22:47.519 --> 00:23:10.960
Now there's definitely room for artificial intelligence in you know business, um in organizational, you know, aspects, um maybe assisting with uh you know with with with certain things, but um I don't think it's I I don't support replacing an artist with an artificial artist.
00:23:10.960 --> 00:23:19.680
You know, there are there are you know, for instance, someone recently showed me you know a piece of artwork that was drawn by hand but was uh colored digitally.
00:23:19.680 --> 00:23:21.759
Oh colored by AI.
00:23:21.759 --> 00:23:28.960
And you know, the first thing I thought of was, well, there's a there's a colorist out there somewhere who would love the opportunity to color that thing.
00:23:29.200 --> 00:23:29.440
Right.
00:23:29.599 --> 00:23:40.640
You know, and and it to me, if you're if you're going to AI to solve your problem without first uh looking at a human artist, you're lazy.
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:42.319
It's a lazy thing.
00:23:42.319 --> 00:23:45.759
It's easy to do, you know, but it's it's lazy.
00:23:45.759 --> 00:23:49.680
And um I don't I do not support generative AI at all.
00:23:49.680 --> 00:23:53.359
I'm not anti-AI, I'm just anti-generative AI.
00:23:53.680 --> 00:23:58.960
You know, in a way, this is what you know, ballets who play recordings instead of hiring musicians.
00:23:58.960 --> 00:24:01.119
It's kind of a similar, similar effect.
00:24:01.440 --> 00:24:02.240
Yeah, yeah.
00:24:02.720 --> 00:24:06.480
But anyway, well, that's something maybe we'll we'll do uh an AI episode.
00:24:06.720 --> 00:24:06.960
Yeah.
00:24:07.200 --> 00:24:07.440
Yeah.
00:24:07.839 --> 00:24:09.519
Yeah, you should have a lot of pros and cons and things.
00:24:09.839 --> 00:24:12.079
So you would mention not have AI do it, you know.
00:24:13.839 --> 00:24:14.160
Right.
00:24:14.160 --> 00:24:15.039
No, yeah.
00:24:15.039 --> 00:24:16.559
We'll we'll do it.
00:24:16.880 --> 00:24:17.359
Right.
00:24:17.680 --> 00:24:19.519
We embrace all of our flaws.
00:24:19.519 --> 00:24:24.160
So you mentioned licensing.
00:24:24.160 --> 00:24:24.559
Yes.
00:24:24.559 --> 00:24:30.160
How does an artist get a license from a brand like Marvel to illustrate their their uh intellectual property?
00:24:30.160 --> 00:24:32.720
Do you just pay a fee or is there a vetting process?
00:24:32.720 --> 00:24:33.599
How does that work?
00:24:34.000 --> 00:24:36.640
So I don't own any licenses personally.
00:24:36.640 --> 00:24:39.039
I'm licensed through another company.
00:24:39.039 --> 00:24:58.960
So for instance, through Topps, I'm licensed to work on uh Star Wars, Major League Baseball, um uh Disney, um, you know, several other Netflix, Nickelodeon, so several other um IP that I'm licensed through TOPS.
00:24:58.960 --> 00:25:18.400
So the process is you have to apply to the license holder to be approved uh to work on a a TOPS product or on a uh written house archives product or on you know whoever the the publisher distributor of the of the product is, that's where you kind of get your your licensing.
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:23.680
So I can't, you know, go out and and do a Star Wars illustration and sell it by myself.
00:25:23.680 --> 00:25:30.400
I'm not licensed to do that, but I am approved and licensed to work on products through Tops Fanatics.
00:25:30.799 --> 00:25:33.599
Did you have to set submit a portfolio?
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:36.079
Yes, yeah, you have to samples.
00:25:36.079 --> 00:25:37.599
There's more samples than a portfolio.
00:25:37.599 --> 00:25:48.960
You have to submit um uh a handful of uh of samples and then those need to be reviewed by the license holder, and then they make a decision on whether whether you can you know work on the product or not.
00:25:49.599 --> 00:25:55.200
Do they do they define like what those samples should be, or is it sort of your best guess at what you think they're looking for?
00:25:55.519 --> 00:25:57.279
They give you absolutely no help at all.
00:25:57.279 --> 00:26:01.920
Okay, so so you have to you have to figure it out.
00:26:01.920 --> 00:26:05.119
So so yeah.
00:26:05.119 --> 00:26:06.079
Got it.
00:26:06.079 --> 00:26:06.799
Yep.
00:26:08.319 --> 00:26:15.279
Um I read that you were part of a creative team that won a Glyph Comics Award for the for Story of the Year.
00:26:15.519 --> 00:26:16.079
Yes.
00:26:16.400 --> 00:26:18.000
Uh congratulations, that's amazing.
00:26:18.000 --> 00:26:18.799
I appreciate that.
00:26:18.799 --> 00:26:19.200
That's great.
00:26:19.200 --> 00:26:21.759
Um you know, and and I I was thinking about that.
00:26:21.759 --> 00:26:22.559
Awards are great.
00:26:22.559 --> 00:26:30.319
Uh we see awards in all sorts of industries and that sort of thing, but awards don't necessarily directly translate to more work or more revenue or anything like that.
00:26:30.319 --> 00:26:35.599
Uh, but they can sort of give you recognition and maybe help you build on some momentum of your work.
00:26:35.599 --> 00:26:38.319
Did that recognition change anything for you?
00:26:38.319 --> 00:26:45.279
New opportunities or uh maybe personal confidence or how um how other people approach you to do work for them?
00:26:45.759 --> 00:26:46.880
Um not really.
00:26:46.880 --> 00:26:50.960
Uh so um it was nice to win the award win the award.
00:26:50.960 --> 00:26:51.680
I appreciate it.
00:26:51.680 --> 00:26:54.880
And I I I I you know we won the award as part of a team.
00:26:54.880 --> 00:27:00.960
It was part of an anthology book that was published by Dark Horse uh called the Shook Horror Anthology.
00:27:00.960 --> 00:27:06.480
Um, the great people at uh Second Sight Publishing um put that together.
00:27:06.480 --> 00:27:11.920
Uh Marcus Roberts at at Second Sight Publishing did a fantastic job um organizing that.
00:27:11.920 --> 00:27:22.160
And um uh I I I I am uh appreciative and excited to be part of the team, and I hope that you know I get to work on other things with them.
00:27:22.160 --> 00:27:28.559
I I I've had a relationship with them for for the at least the last five years, um, and they're and they're great to work with.
00:27:28.559 --> 00:27:33.519
But in terms of did the award change anything, um not really.
00:27:33.519 --> 00:27:42.720
Um it uh I think it's just a nice, you know, um a nice thing to put on my resume and to say, hey, I've you know, I've won an award for my work.
00:27:42.720 --> 00:28:05.359
And um I think it maybe, you know, uh lit draws a little bit of attention in people, um potential publishers or potential um, you know, creative teams, you know, maybe taking a another look, you know, at my work um for a project, but um I don't know that it's really, you know, changed anything for me.
00:28:06.000 --> 00:28:06.400
Yeah.
00:28:06.400 --> 00:28:12.319
Dan, if a company contacts you to create a medical illustration, what does that process look like?
00:28:12.319 --> 00:28:19.279
And do you have a work-for-hire agreement or do you own the illustrations and you're free to reproduce them for others?
00:28:20.160 --> 00:28:24.319
So I work in a subset of medical illustration called medical legal illustrations.
00:28:24.319 --> 00:28:34.400
So I work with I work directly with um attorneys who need uh demonstrative exhibits for uh medical malpractice or personal injury cases.
00:28:34.400 --> 00:28:37.920
So I've been doing that since uh graduated from school.
00:28:37.920 --> 00:28:39.839
That's that's primarily what I've done.
00:28:39.839 --> 00:28:44.559
Um and I have a couple of clients, you know, scattered throughout the country who come to me for work.
00:28:44.559 --> 00:28:49.359
Um and it's it's an it's an hourly rate, you know, that I charge.
00:28:49.359 --> 00:28:55.279
And um in some cases, yeah, I I retain the I retain the rights to the work.
00:28:55.279 --> 00:28:58.559
Um and in some cases I can reuse it.
00:28:58.559 --> 00:29:09.519
Um but uh in most cases the artwork is so specific to a uh to a medical case that uh you can't really reuse it.
00:29:09.519 --> 00:29:25.440
So a lot of um a lot of what I do is is original sketches and and hand-drawn, you know, work that has to be approved by not only the attorney, but the the medical experts, and in some cases the insurance companies that are you know covering the medical experts.
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:33.680
Everybody has to sign off on the image and and say that yes, this is accurate, and this depicts the you know the facts of the case and um and then we'll pay you.
00:29:33.839 --> 00:29:37.119
So that's basically how that's yeah, and how long does that take?
00:29:37.119 --> 00:29:39.200
I mean, I guess it depends on what you're drawing.
00:29:39.519 --> 00:29:41.119
Um it it it depends.
00:29:41.119 --> 00:29:54.240
You know, um cases get you know bumped and and continued and um settled, and so you know, most most of what I do I get up to the sketch stage and I'm about to start final color on the illustrations and then the case settles.
00:29:54.240 --> 00:30:00.480
Um and so at that point, you know, you turn in your invoice, and it usually takes you know 30 days to get paid um or whatever.
00:30:00.480 --> 00:30:06.160
But um uh it's it's it's a great it's a great um a field to be in.
00:30:06.160 --> 00:30:14.160
Um it you know, if if I could if I could get 40 hours of of medical illustration work a month, I'd never have to do anything else again.
00:30:14.160 --> 00:30:24.079
But um, you know, the you're on you're on, you know, you're you're waiting for things to happen and then for them to come to you and you know and ask for help.
00:30:24.079 --> 00:30:27.599
And not every case, you know, requires illustration work.
00:30:27.599 --> 00:30:35.440
Um, usually only the ones that they think are gonna go to trial or that they think they really need help um explaining, you know, the facts of the case.
00:30:35.759 --> 00:30:38.880
Yeah, I mean law is it's it's always a lot more lucrative, it seems.
00:30:38.880 --> 00:30:43.519
Uh a friend of mine left percussion and became an A V person.
00:30:43.519 --> 00:30:47.759
So he's actually in court and it's very lucrative for him.
00:30:47.759 --> 00:30:48.240
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:30:48.240 --> 00:30:49.680
So he's doing a fantastic job.
00:30:49.680 --> 00:30:57.759
And you know, speaking of law, did and it's not in your resume or anything that I could find, but have you ever done like patent illustrations?
00:30:57.759 --> 00:30:58.559
Oh, yeah.
00:30:58.720 --> 00:31:00.480
I do a lot of patent illustration.
00:31:00.480 --> 00:31:01.440
Yes, yes.
00:31:01.440 --> 00:31:13.759
I am I I have my claims to fame are uh I did the pass patent illustration for a uh macerating toilet for a uh for an RV.
00:31:13.759 --> 00:31:14.640
Nice.
00:31:14.640 --> 00:31:20.000
Um I did I hold I did the illustration work for the modern day turkey baster.
00:31:20.000 --> 00:31:26.480
Um so every Thanksgiving, you know, you can you know send me a message say, hey, thanks for this illustration work on Turkey Baster.
00:31:26.799 --> 00:31:28.240
Had I known we could have put that in the intro.
00:31:28.559 --> 00:31:29.519
Right, yeah, yeah, right.
00:31:29.519 --> 00:31:30.559
Oh, that's great.
00:31:30.559 --> 00:31:32.240
Didn't know we had royalty here.
00:31:32.240 --> 00:31:33.039
Yeah, right.
00:31:33.039 --> 00:31:38.400
But I do a lot of I do a lot of patent illustration work, and um it that's that's fun.
00:31:38.400 --> 00:31:39.359
That's fun stuff to do.
00:31:39.359 --> 00:31:59.440
I've worked on a lot of really cool, interesting tech and and some chemical stuff and um you know everything from heart stents to uh you know uh um giant machines that clean um uh oil tankers to um you know I've I've done a lot and it's it's always a lot of fun.
00:31:59.440 --> 00:32:03.039
Um and I love I love the the the clients that I work with.
00:32:03.279 --> 00:32:03.599
Yeah.
00:32:03.599 --> 00:32:04.480
Yeah, that's great.
00:32:04.480 --> 00:32:17.200
I I love you know it seems like all the time we're through this podcast and other places we're learning about all these little niche um areas where artists, musicians, performers can apply their yeah, apply their skill sets.
00:32:17.200 --> 00:32:18.480
And yet here we are again.
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:34.880
Um again, maybe obvious to people that are that are that are illustrators and and um in the industry, but I again for like for people just sort of starting their profession or looking for opportunities within the illustration profession, like these little niches are are out there, right?
00:32:35.200 --> 00:32:37.039
Yeah, yeah, they they at they absolutely are.
00:32:37.039 --> 00:32:46.720
And some of these, you know, I I I ended up I ended up in the patent illustration, you know, universe because I worked at a law firm for nine years as a medical illustrator.
00:32:46.720 --> 00:32:55.759
And and there were other things that the that the law firm needed done, and one of them was you know, IP work and and and patent illustration work.
00:32:55.759 --> 00:33:10.000
And I was the most likely candidate to do that, and so I I learned the you know the US patent um rules and regulations and you know everything that you need to do to be able to uh get a uh a patent illustration submitted and approved.
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:11.359
So that's cool.
00:33:11.359 --> 00:33:12.559
Yeah, that is.
00:33:12.559 --> 00:33:19.920
Well, medical illustration and patent illustration, uh both highly technical and have to be very precise.
00:33:19.920 --> 00:33:20.480
Yes.
00:33:20.480 --> 00:33:36.559
Um I'm wondering if maybe those skills that you learned about precision and and being technically accurate do those spill over into other parts of your work, like professionally, or um, you know, we talked about meeting deadlines and things like that.
00:33:36.559 --> 00:33:47.519
It seems like there might be a sort of a uh whether it's a personality piece or something that that kind of crosses over between the technical work and actually maintaining the technical side of the business or something.
00:33:47.839 --> 00:34:14.800
Yeah, it it all it all messes meshes together, you know, it all goes into the the blender of your brain and then it then it helps create you know your your style and your approach and um the way that you handle you know situations and um being able to you know understand complex things and uh uh dumb them down to a visual that is uh understandable to you know the common person.
00:34:14.800 --> 00:34:18.480
Um that's that's a that's a skill in and of itself.
00:34:18.480 --> 00:34:24.400
And uh that has served me well, you know, over the years is also yeah.
00:34:24.960 --> 00:34:33.440
I uh particularly by looking at your website, you did a lot of uh cervical, there there were a lot of uh cervical vertebrae and that sort of thing.
00:34:33.440 --> 00:34:43.840
And I've I've had um a dysquectomy and with with with fusion and that sort of you have a diagram specifically on there that that that shows exactly what the procedure.
00:34:43.840 --> 00:34:47.440
And so I'm looking at that, I'm like, oh that's that's you know, that's that makes sense.
00:34:47.440 --> 00:34:56.960
But like obviously the the neurosurgeon that actually does that, it's far more, it's far more technical and complicated than than what the the what the illustration shows.
00:34:56.960 --> 00:35:02.880
But it does give you a really clear understanding of oh yeah, that's that's that's what that is.
00:35:03.199 --> 00:35:14.880
Yeah, I had I I'm you know I have a great appreciation for you know surgeons who do that type of complex work because when you get into the you know, having I I had to take gross anatomy, so I had to dissect two people.
00:35:14.880 --> 00:35:15.840
So wow.
00:35:15.840 --> 00:35:19.519
So when you get in there, you know, everything looks exactly the same.
00:35:19.519 --> 00:35:21.199
You know, it doesn't look like the illustration.
00:35:21.440 --> 00:35:22.880
It's not colored one way or the other.
00:35:23.360 --> 00:35:25.360
No, there are no color codes, right?
00:35:25.360 --> 00:35:33.840
I mean, I mean, living human tissue has a little bit more color to it, you know, than than cadaver, you know, tissue.
00:35:33.840 --> 00:35:37.840
But um, you know, everything just looks the same.
00:35:37.840 --> 00:35:44.159
And uh I just marvel at how you know they can go in there and they know exactly what they're looking at.
00:35:44.159 --> 00:35:47.360
Because when I was in there, I had no idea what I was looking at.
00:35:47.360 --> 00:35:51.199
So it's it's yeah, yeah, it's it's amazing to me.
00:35:51.199 --> 00:35:51.599
It is.
00:35:51.920 --> 00:35:57.679
But you're you're going in there learning how to draw, they're going in there to save people's lives and doing surgery.
00:35:57.679 --> 00:35:58.000
Correct.
00:35:58.000 --> 00:35:59.679
So they're looking at it slightly differently.
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:05.440
I'll never forget uh in you know, in school, I had to take a surgical orientation class.
00:36:05.440 --> 00:36:11.599
So I had to get up stupidly early in the morning and get out to a hospital and get into the surgery theater.
00:36:11.599 --> 00:36:13.280
I'd get scrubbed down and everything.
00:36:13.280 --> 00:36:23.360
And I had a scrub nurse who was dedicated to me and had a tray of drawing utensils on the tray.
00:36:23.360 --> 00:36:31.360
And so I was watching open heart surgery, and and I was supposed to sketch this open heart surgery while I was in there.
00:36:31.360 --> 00:36:37.519
So they had a little platform that I was supposed to get on, and the doctor, it was a teaching hospital, and the doctor was teaching.
00:36:37.519 --> 00:36:48.559
You know, there's a there's a guy laying with his chest cracked wide open on a machine, and this surgeon is holding open, you know, uh an area for me to draw it.
00:36:48.559 --> 00:36:55.519
And so I'm I'm I'm standing over this body, and I'll never forget the lungs were were like bubblegum pink.
00:36:55.519 --> 00:36:57.760
I'll never forget how pink those lungs were.
00:36:57.760 --> 00:37:04.800
And uh I'm drawing and I'm you know, and I'm like, you know, he's he's like scalpel, and I'm like eraser.
00:37:04.800 --> 00:37:09.920
And then he's like, you know, four steps.
00:37:09.920 --> 00:37:12.239
I'm like, you know, number number three pencil.
00:37:14.079 --> 00:37:15.760
Is she really handing those to you?
00:37:16.000 --> 00:37:16.559
Oh yeah.
00:37:16.559 --> 00:37:18.000
Oh yeah, yeah.
00:37:18.239 --> 00:37:19.920
Oh wow, okay, crazy.
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:22.400
It was a crazy You're not squeamish or anything like that.
00:37:22.480 --> 00:37:26.960
You couldn't have to.
00:37:26.960 --> 00:37:28.000
The next part of the story.
00:37:28.000 --> 00:37:36.000
So I saw I I watched um total hip replacement twice, which is a brutal surgery, yeah, and it sprayed with blood.
00:37:36.000 --> 00:37:40.079
So and I was halfway across the room when that happened.
00:37:40.079 --> 00:37:54.079
So and and but the only the only instance where I had an issue was I was going in and there was a there was a little kid who had um a hand issue and like his his fingers were fused.
00:37:54.079 --> 00:38:01.280
And so they were gonna go in and they were gonna cut between the fingers and take skin from his wrist and reshape his fingers, right?
00:38:01.280 --> 00:38:02.800
And create fingers for him.
00:38:02.800 --> 00:38:10.880
And for some reason, when that kid got wheeled in and I saw, you know, saw him there, I lost it.
00:38:10.880 --> 00:38:12.960
And I started to black out.
00:38:12.960 --> 00:38:26.400
And so I was I was halfway, I was all the way across the room, opposite of the exit door in the surgical theater, and there were all of these trays, these carts that had green drapings on a green drape on them.
00:38:26.400 --> 00:38:33.199
Anything with a green drape, you're not allowed to touch because I wasn't scrubbed down, I wasn't uh sterilized.
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:38.800
Um, I was just there to draw, and I was supposed to stand a certain amount away, a certain amount of distance away.
00:38:38.800 --> 00:38:40.480
I had to navigate.
00:38:40.480 --> 00:38:43.280
I was, I was, you know, I could tell I was getting dizzy.
00:38:43.280 --> 00:38:48.719
I had to navigate through these, you know, uh sterilized carts to get to the door.
00:38:48.719 --> 00:38:53.599
I made it, I had to walk down this long hallway, I made it outside, and I found a chair.
00:38:53.599 --> 00:38:56.000
And as I was sitting in the chair, I passed out.
00:38:56.320 --> 00:38:57.360
Oh my gosh.
00:38:58.239 --> 00:39:02.719
So you could have been a subject of of one of your medical illustration lawsuits.
00:39:02.880 --> 00:39:04.960
Yeah, that's right.
00:39:04.960 --> 00:39:11.119
And so I was uh that was that was the only situation where I I I couldn't handle it.
00:39:11.119 --> 00:39:12.639
And I don't I don't know what it was.
00:39:12.639 --> 00:39:17.679
I don't know if it was because it was a kid or because it was what it was, but I just could not I couldn't handle it.
00:39:17.679 --> 00:39:18.400
Wow, yeah.
00:39:18.400 --> 00:39:20.239
Who knew?
00:39:20.320 --> 00:39:21.920
Yeah, no idea.
00:39:24.159 --> 00:39:25.280
Thanks for listening.
00:39:25.280 --> 00:39:27.599
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