Rethinking the Fourth Trimester: Postpartum Care for Surrogates

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All Things Conceivable, a surrogacy podcast, with Nazca Fontes.
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Welcome, listeners, and thank you for joining me on this episode of All Things
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Conceivable, a surrogacy podcast.
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In today's episode, we are rethinking postpartum mental health care for surrogates,
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and specifically within the fourth trimester.
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Our special guest today is Dr. Sonal Patel, and she is the founder of NayaCare
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and the co-founder of the Center for the Fourth Trimester Care.
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So whether you are carrying your own pregnancy or surrogate pregnancy,
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postpartum recovery is incredibly important, and it's something I truly cannot talk about enough.
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The fourth trimester is a critical time for physical recovery,
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emotional well-being, and adjusting to life after pregnancy.
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That's why I'm so excited for our guest and to welcome Dr. Sonal Patel to the podcast today.
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Dr. Patel is a physician on a mission to change the way we approach and support
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fourth trimester care. Welcome, Dr. Patel.
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Thank you for having me. I look forward to this conversation.
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Well, I'm just going to give our listeners just a brief history of your background
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and your illustrious career so that our listeners know exactly the type of information
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they can expect to receive today, and that's coming from a trusted, reputable source.
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For our listeners, Dr. Sonal Patel is a board-certified pediatrician,
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neonatologist, breastfeeding specialist, and fourth-trimester expert with more
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than 20 years of experience in infant nutrition, postpartum care,
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and maternal well-being.
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As mentioned previously, she's the founder of NayaCare and co-founder of the
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Center for Fourth-Trimester Care,
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a physician-led nonprofit dedicated to advancing maternal health care.
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And as a side note, she's also a TEDx speaker, published writer,
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author, and passionate advocate.
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Dr. Patel is working to improve the support and care available to mothers and
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families during one of the most important and often overlooked periods of their lives.
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So, Dr. Patel, let's just get right into it. Tell us how Nyakare was born.
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Yeah, before I start, could you just walk around with me and just say that all the time?
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That was kind of fun to listen to. I was like, oh, I did do all of those things.
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You certainly did. You certainly did. Very impressive. Very impressive, for sure.
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Oh, thank you so much. I know. So really, I think everything kind of starts
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from when you face a system.
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The other things I really want to add on to that, bio is a personal aspect of it.
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I'm married to my college sweetheart. We're raising four boys.
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My mom's an OBGYN practicing here in the United States.
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Whenever I did have a baby, she actually cleared her calendar and came for two
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weeks and thereafter that my mother-in-law came and this is all the privilege
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that I need to put forth because my medical system failed me.
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It took me four kids to realize and a contractor to recognize that I had just
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given birth and I was actually more important in the equation than the baby.
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Itself and that's coming from a NICU dog who takes care of her babies, too.
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And that's how I really honestly started.
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And it's built out for about eight years now. So really excited to where it's gone.
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Well, it's clear just from that brief synopsis of your personal journey that
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improving fourth trimester care is a deeply personal matter.
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And as I was reading some of the information on your website,
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NayaCare, and kind of the About page and your own personal journey and mentioning
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the contractor was just, you know,
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I had my own flashbacks to the time when I first gave birth.
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And, you know, I have two boys who are grown now.
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And how that system did fail. And I think it fails a lot of women.
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And perhaps during this conversation, maybe I'll provide some tidbits of my
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own personal experience, but goodness, you know, you shared the story of driving
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through a snowstorm just days after giving birth for an appointment.
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And, you know, you do reveal the gaps in the postpartum care.
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So tell us a little bit more about how you recognize those gaps,
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even being so deeply entrenched professionally in that system?
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Like, why did you have such a blind spot prior to your own personal experience?
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Oh, that's a great question. I've never been asked that. Why did I have such a blind spot?
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I always think, reflecting back, that I had to go through. So I've had all types
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of deliveries as well as in all types of experiences.
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And I think sometimes it just takes one person to recognize you.
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And like you said, you mentioned it was a contractor.
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And I think that's what it is. It hits you in your face.
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And one thing that I am dealing with now, and I'm very vocal and open about
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it, is I had to deal with IC. And IC is interstitial cystitis,
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which is part of the chronic pelvic pain.
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And when you look at one of the rising diagnosis in women is chronic pelvic pain.
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And I was floored to learn more so that no one taught me about my physical recovery.
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Everybody was so focused on the breastfeeding. Everybody was so focused on the
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newborn, the newborn sleep, and everyone overlooked me.
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And so I don't know why I didn't have the intuition with my first.
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My first one was kind of crazy too.
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And all of them have been crazy. I just think it really needed four to teach me that lesson.
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So yes, having several different kinds of births, feeding journeys,
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postpartum experiences yourself.
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Why do you think that there was this intuition on behalf of your mother and
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mother-in-law to clear their calendars and say, we need to be with Sonal and the family?
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Yeah. I mean, it's part of our culture, right? It's a part of the most of the
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South Asian cultures, the Southeastern Chinese, Vietnamese, all of those,
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that Eastern culture and philosophy, it's part of it.
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And so it didn't matter that I was in the United States.
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It's just embedded. And, you know, going forward, when my kids have their families,
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it's just an understanding that, you know, it's going to be cleared out.
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And it's just embedded for centuries.
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For that to happen. I mean, it's a beautiful thing. I mean, I can reflect,
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and I guess when I mentioned I'd share a little tidbits.
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I think for listeners of this topic, it's important to be able to connect and
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have stories resonate personally.
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And I'm not sure I've ever met a woman that didn't go through some type of major
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transition. Of course, it's natural, right? It's the fourth trimester of recovery,
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but there's certain degrees of transition that are more intense than others.
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And I think, you know, when I reflect on my own experience, all we coined it
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back then, you know, my oldest son is 25, you know, it was coined baby blues.
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There wasn't much else talked about in terms of a physical, emotional recovery
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other than maybe feeling a little blue and, you know, dealing with your incisions or what have you.
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You know, it really was no more than that. And I had, both of my children were jaundiced.
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They were attached to billy blankets.
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They had trouble latching and nobody ever came to my home to visit.
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I had to log things on a piece of paper and kind of call it into my doctor if
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things sounded alarming.
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And I remember just sitting in that chair crying for days and days and days,
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not knowing what to do and having no family around.
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So I think, you know, to fast forward to today's day and age when we actually
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have a real framework within fourth trimester care to turn to and to get help.
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And now it's just it behooves all of us that practice within certain fields
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to really get the word out that this framework now exists and it can be accessible.
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It's not always easy to access, but it is out there now.
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Yeah, I think this just happens a lot of, I feel we live in two different bubbles,
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right, with postpartum. One is this hallmark vision of it that is being fed to us.
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And the other one is that you are going to be absolutely devastated and you're
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just going to be a hot mess.
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And that's projected to us. But there's no room in the middle to allow your
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space to, first of all, heal and discover your new identity.
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I mean, there's a beautiful word called matrescence. It's a birth of a mother.
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Patrescence is a birth of a father. And it's really trying to identify and recognize
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this massive identity shift that has just happened.
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And that's all. And I always do on my socials and everything.
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I love bringing the science behind it. And we can get into that, too.
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But there is a lot of science behind that aspect of it. And particularly for
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your listeners who are more surrogates and that's where you cater to.
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It is a change. It is a birth of a mother. It doesn't matter if you've actually
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gone through however you've gotten this child into your life.
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It is such a massive change.
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And I think that's one word that we really should be pushing out there even more.
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Well, clearly, you know, your advocacy for a more comprehensive postpartum support
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system, it's very clear, including a home-based model.
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Can you share with us what kind of support that would look like and why it could
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make such a difference for families?
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Yeah. So, again, you know, going back to this idea of the village,
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we talk about the village and everybody's like, where's the village?
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Well, I'm bringing the medical village to your plate.
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I'm not replacing any other village aspects because I was actually was doing
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this talk one time and some person raised their hand and says,
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well, why can't you do it all? And I go, well, then that's we're missing the point in that.
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So I bring the medical aspect of it. I bring it to the house.
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Why do I think home visits are so important?
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It's again, going back to science. Now, if we talk about the biological ways
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that a mom has delivered a baby, it's profound.
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Profound hormonal shift that you have to go from this body that was just housing
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a baby, so this pregnancy body, to now a body that needs to feed the baby.
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And we talk about a hormonal crash, but in all honesty, it's a hormonal shock.
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Your body goes through such shock-like symptoms.
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This is why women, you know, right after they deliver, they have the shakes.
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So now you have the shock-like.
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Body, and then you're saying, oh, two days later when you get discharged from
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the hospital or in whatever, you've had a C-section for three days.
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By the way, go seek your own medical care.
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You wouldn't do that in any other aspect. You wouldn't have a patient who is
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admitted for, you know, severe pneumonia and in shock and just say,
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okay, we're not going to provide any sort of home health, even nursing support for them.
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And so we are meeting our patients where they need to be met,
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to be honest. We're also doing, we're changing what medical care is defined
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as. We're calling it diet care. So we're recognizing, you mentioned your kiddo who had jaundice.
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Well, the number one reason for jaundice is the lack of breastfeeding and the
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lack of nutrition with that. And it goes all hand in hand.
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And so when we label a diet care, we're saying, no, despite the fact there's
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physical separation, all these medical issues that we are trying to avoid,
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they're all interconnected with mom and baby.
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And so let's look at it from that perspective that we need additional three months.
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There's a lot of evolutionary stuff that goes into the fourth trimester.
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It's actually quite a fascinating period.
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And so the home visits is meeting our patients where they're at.
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Then we talk about, we look at the mom, right? We look at her first and we screen
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her. We don't only screen her for mental health, but we also screen her for
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physical part of it. And then the support system that's around her,
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which is going to be super important.
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Then we talk about nutrition. We talk about water.
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We talk about the intake. We talk about supplementation with vitamin D and magnesium.
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We're kind of really taking very preventive measures to like pour it into her.
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We talk about napping. We talk about how sleep looks like. I always joke that
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we're honestly sleep of training the wrong person. We're trying to control the uncontrollable by.
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Trying to control newborn sleep when we should be really sleep training the
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mothers, right? Like we should really be impressing that.
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And then we do all infant care. We work with now with your kiddos when you said
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about jaundice. We work with a great organization called Billy Blankens.
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We do in-home phototherapy as well.
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Then we do about feeding. We open it up to feeding because there's a lot of
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ways that we can make this breastfeeding journey individualized.
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And when you actually look at the data and you allow this individualization
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of having this breastfeeding journey, they breastfeed longer.
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And then finally, with sleep and safe sleep, we talk about that and we do it
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in their environment. So now we have the grandparents that are listening into
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the conversations if the parents are okay with it. We have the dad that's present.
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You know, some of my families, because we don't have universal paid family leave,
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luckily we live in Colorado, but now my dads are, you know, more present.
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And I've seen the difference after we implemented paid medical and family leave here.
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And then if you have like toddlers and siblings, I mean, we get them involved
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in the appointment too, because it really is going back to, we need a village
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and I'm only providing the medical piece of it.
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So much is there, right? So much about what actually occurs.
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To hear you describe the hormonal shift as a shock was shocking, I suppose, right?
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Being quite candid, like it's so true. It's so true.
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And, you know, I guess one of the questions I have is that this is,
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you know, some tremendous important work.
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How are you working? How is your organization working specifically to connect
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with providers to, I guess, you know, frankly, just get the word out,
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get the understanding that this type of care and attention is needed?
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Are you working closely with OB-GYNs? Are you working with insurance companies?
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Are you working with the hospital system?
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Like, how are you impressing upon the providers that this type of care is needed
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if it's not being provided?
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Yeah, no. So eight years ago, no one knew what the fourth trimester was.
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And everybody was like, what are you doing?
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You know, I'm like, no, I'm just trying to change. And we call it,
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we used to call it postpartum. And the wording is very important,
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too. And we can get into that.
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Now that it's more mainstream, when you say the fourth trimester,
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everybody has kind of heard of it or recognized it.
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I mean, I actually just had a surgical resident who is almost done with her residency.
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She's just fifth year, and I think she's an attending now. And she came up to me.
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She goes, I know I went to med school. I knew about the first,
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second, and third, but what is this fourth?
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So there you see it where there's a lack of education even in the medical system.
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So one way is through them is, you know, a lot of speaking, a lot of conferences,
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a lot of being educating them in those kind of areas.
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We did create the nonprofit, the Center for Fourth trimester care,
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and that's a physician-run base because we wanted, so you have this big elephant
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and then the AAP, which is.
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The Academy of Pediatrics, and you have ACOG, which is OBGYNs,
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and then you have some mental health therapists, and you have family practice.
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We're all looking at it from a different vision and a different view,
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and we're like, no, you know what?
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This, we have to kind of look at it holistically, so that's why we created the
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center, and through that, we offer a lot of potential ways for CME for all healthcare
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providers, including nurses to PAs to NNPs.
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So please come look at that, join that.
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On the groundwork, we have partnered up with a pediatrician here.
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She uses me as her lead magnet. So we have to look at the business of medicine as well.
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And I do her home visits. I do her newborn home visits.
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And then we've also partnered up with a non-profit that looks,
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that serves our community for the African-American families,
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and we've been doing that for about two years.
00:16:40.650 --> 00:16:44.118
The other ways that you kind of reach people is through social media.
00:16:44.118 --> 00:16:47.108
I'm very prominent on social media. I love TikTok, by the way.
00:16:47.108 --> 00:16:49.985
I really do. I enjoy it. I don't dance, but I love TikTok.
00:16:50.478 --> 00:16:53.238
And I think you meet... I love it too. Yeah.
00:16:54.106 --> 00:16:59.969
You meet where your families are at and where they're consuming information as well.
00:17:00.642 --> 00:17:06.698
And then there are other aspects. You know, I'm very prominent and very involved in my birth community.
00:17:06.698 --> 00:17:11.492
And the birth community is our lactation specialist. I sit on the Colorado Breastfeeding
00:17:11.927 --> 00:17:17.458
Association, and then I have partnerships with a lot of our doula workers here, midwives.
00:17:17.458 --> 00:17:21.508
Colorado is one of the few states that has a lot of options for birth.
00:17:21.508 --> 00:17:25.218
I mean, you go to our neighboring Nebraska where you have a home birth that's
00:17:25.218 --> 00:17:30.598
illegal. So we have a lot of ways that we work with different birthing options
00:17:30.598 --> 00:17:33.977
from home birth to birth centers. We have a lot of partnership with that.
00:17:34.424 --> 00:17:38.868
And then the last thing is I know I'm full of resources, just full.
00:17:38.868 --> 00:17:43.968
I know my brain is full of resources and we can't ignore AI coming down our
00:17:43.968 --> 00:17:48.211
path. And so we actually curated the first MD curated AI.
00:17:48.629 --> 00:17:52.018
I know a lot more about AI technology and building it than I should know.
00:17:52.378 --> 00:17:57.122
But if you ask me questions, I know I can probably answer them for you. This is why I say that.
00:17:57.830 --> 00:18:01.918
And because we know our families are looking for resources. And if you go to
00:18:01.918 --> 00:18:06.562
Dr. Google, you're going to either die or live, according to Dr. Google.
00:18:07.084 --> 00:18:13.648
And then if you use other AI prompts or other AI areas, other AI LLMs that are
00:18:13.648 --> 00:18:21.058
not really have the clinical boundaries there, you're going to get answers that are,
00:18:21.578 --> 00:18:23.288
again, so far-fetched.
00:18:23.288 --> 00:18:26.698
And here what we've done is we really have created the boundaries.
00:18:26.698 --> 00:18:30.007
I always say I'm not solving for all of pediatrics. I'm just helping my families
00:18:30.431 --> 00:18:34.328
for the next three months. And so it's the best way I can explain it.
00:18:34.328 --> 00:18:36.518
It's like talking to my brain, to be honest.
00:18:37.847 --> 00:18:40.949
So, yeah, that's how we're doing good. That's a lot. That is,
00:18:41.489 --> 00:18:46.369
wow, I'm actually very impressed. I had no idea the magnitude of the outreach
00:18:46.369 --> 00:18:48.152
and the educational process.
00:18:48.738 --> 00:18:51.123
So that's so reassuring.
00:18:52.329 --> 00:18:54.529
And, you know, to hear you talk. And then like you guys, right,
00:18:54.529 --> 00:18:58.419
like inviting me to actually have a platform to talk to your guys,
00:18:58.419 --> 00:19:03.159
your family and your audience and a lot of podcasts and just getting the word
00:19:03.159 --> 00:19:05.863
out. So, yes. So thank you again for having me.
00:19:06.449 --> 00:19:10.188
Absolutely. And I think, you know, when it comes to surrogates in particular,
00:19:11.129 --> 00:19:14.059
you know, it's a special situation.
00:19:14.059 --> 00:19:17.989
They're not bringing home a baby to care for, but yet they are going through
00:19:17.989 --> 00:19:23.279
all of those physical side effects and that hormonal shock of having given birth.
00:19:23.279 --> 00:19:27.519
And they do need some particular care, I think.
00:19:27.519 --> 00:19:31.649
And so, you know, for Conceivabilities, we brought this first of its kind to
00:19:31.649 --> 00:19:37.259
our field of a fourth trimester all-in care package so that we could better
00:19:37.259 --> 00:19:41.600
support surrogates as they transition back into their normal family lives.
00:19:42.111 --> 00:19:46.219
You know, one of the things that compelled us to do this was obviously the issue
00:19:46.219 --> 00:19:50.029
that seems to, and maybe you could correct me if I'm wrong, but seems to loom,
00:19:51.170 --> 00:19:54.919
largest in kind of postpartum or fourth trimester transition.
00:19:54.919 --> 00:19:58.779
And that is the mental health aspect, right? That really seems to be the one
00:19:58.779 --> 00:20:02.642
that everybody can identify with or they know about in terms of,
00:20:03.054 --> 00:20:06.635
you know, a side effect, if you will, of having given birth.
00:20:06.989 --> 00:20:10.929
So how can one distinguish between what we might coin, quote unquote,
00:20:10.929 --> 00:20:15.719
normal postpartum changes from something that's more significant in terms of
00:20:15.719 --> 00:20:16.931
a mental health concern?
00:20:18.081 --> 00:20:24.191
So it's all about, I mean, to identify it, sometimes you yourself cannot identify it, right?
00:20:24.191 --> 00:20:29.621
Like, because I suffer from postpartum depression, right? And so I always,
00:20:29.621 --> 00:20:33.447
my tips, the first tip is create a sisterhood.
00:20:33.609 --> 00:20:36.837
This is like creating your bridesmaid for your wedding, right?
00:20:37.446 --> 00:20:42.781
But create a sisterhood of two to three people. And so what I really focus on
00:20:42.781 --> 00:20:48.516
is, we'll talk about the science a little bit here too, because I think education is empowerment.
00:20:48.987 --> 00:20:55.221
And you can realize that, oh, wow, this is like my body really has gone through the wringer.
00:20:55.599 --> 00:21:01.961
And then we can get away from, oh, it's just a woman's issue or it's just a hormonal crush.
00:21:02.338 --> 00:21:06.331
We even say that lightly. We say words such as a C-section so lightly.
00:21:06.331 --> 00:21:11.382
A C-section is literally seven layers, abdominal, major abdominal surgery that you go through.
00:21:11.806 --> 00:21:15.114
Then we talk about tears, right? And we talk about them in a way that it's like,
00:21:15.520 --> 00:21:17.401
oh, it's just a grade one, it's a grade two.
00:21:17.401 --> 00:21:20.651
I mean, I tell my dads, I'm like, whoever the partners are, I'm like,
00:21:20.651 --> 00:21:24.941
a grade two is like, I could just literally open up your skin and I can see
00:21:24.941 --> 00:21:27.380
your biceps. That's a grade two, you know?
00:21:27.716 --> 00:21:33.881
And they're like, oh. So I think empowering them with education and what the
00:21:33.881 --> 00:21:39.451
words actually mean for it is just so much important from there.
00:21:39.451 --> 00:21:43.599
Then you layer on your village, right? Your sisterhood.
00:21:44.668 --> 00:21:49.164
And then we pour into you your recovery. So some of the surrogate families that
00:21:49.164 --> 00:21:53.664
I've worked with, and I'm so impressed with these women, they continue to pump
00:21:53.664 --> 00:21:56.494
for their babies, for the babies that they're not even there.
00:21:56.494 --> 00:22:00.624
And pumping is honestly, any woman who's ever pumped, I mean,
00:22:01.064 --> 00:22:02.879
it's another full-time job.
00:22:03.262 --> 00:22:09.384
So I'm just floored with just the dedication that these women have to be like,
00:22:09.384 --> 00:22:11.480
no, this is, I want to do this.
00:22:12.061 --> 00:22:18.854
And so to recognize them and really support them. So again, plus remind if you're
00:22:18.854 --> 00:22:24.804
not breastfeeding, you're in a lower estrogen state. And estrogen for women's
00:22:24.804 --> 00:22:27.026
body is very protective for bones.
00:22:27.345 --> 00:22:33.186
So you need vitamin D. It's not the 400 international units, minimum 2,000.
00:22:33.604 --> 00:22:37.656
And then we talk about magnesium, how it's cardiovascularly stabilizing.
00:22:38.126 --> 00:22:42.134
Then about sleep, we're recognizing all of these things that are happening and
00:22:42.134 --> 00:22:47.304
also their transitions with how they need to sleep, when they need to sleep,
00:22:47.304 --> 00:22:48.895
because that's really important as well.
00:22:49.469 --> 00:22:54.874
And really taking that approach and saying, your body, I even say it from my
00:22:54.874 --> 00:22:58.601
NICU families, your body is still going through the fourth trimester.
00:22:58.926 --> 00:23:02.974
Your baby might have been born in the second or the third, but your body is
00:23:02.974 --> 00:23:05.524
actually physically changing into the fourth.
00:23:05.524 --> 00:23:09.944
So I think I'd like to talk about that hormonal crash in the science thing.
00:23:09.944 --> 00:23:15.324
I think that's where we really should start. Would that be okay to interject
00:23:15.324 --> 00:23:17.106
here? Of course. Absolutely. Yes.
00:23:17.724 --> 00:23:22.884
Okay. So around conception, what happens? We look at a couple of hormones.
00:23:22.884 --> 00:23:27.025
One is your progesterone and one is your estrogen. And we'll focus on progesterone right now.
00:23:27.681 --> 00:23:33.434
And with conception, a baseline progesterone is about 40 milligrams.
00:23:33.434 --> 00:23:36.964
And depending on where you're doing it, it's also the measurements of it.
00:23:36.964 --> 00:23:39.256
It's 40 milligrams or nanograms.
00:23:39.639 --> 00:23:41.816
I've seen it in both ways, but let's just say it's 40.
00:23:42.601 --> 00:23:49.050
And so throughout conception, you need progesterone to maintain that pregnancy throughout it.
00:23:49.799 --> 00:23:53.892
While it's maintaining, majority of it comes from the placenta.
00:23:54.391 --> 00:23:59.222
And so when you are fully ready term, what we say about 40 weeks,
00:23:59.222 --> 00:24:05.552
which is about 10 months, you have this gradual rise from 40 to about 320.
00:24:06.072 --> 00:24:11.014
I just looked it up the other day. Some reports are coming out to be in more in the thousands.
00:24:11.357 --> 00:24:15.812
And that's a whole nother podcast of the lack of women's research that is being
00:24:15.812 --> 00:24:18.538
done. You're like, wait, what is this going on?
00:24:19.328 --> 00:24:24.401
Do you know when it goes back to baseline? Would you like to guess? We'll just guess.
00:24:25.332 --> 00:24:30.380
Okay, I'll say, well, okay, I'm going to state the obvious since we're talking trimester, 12 weeks.
00:24:31.063 --> 00:24:35.812
12 weeks. So remember I took set incomes majority from the placenta? Mm-hmm.
00:24:36.792 --> 00:24:41.721
So when the placenta is birthed, when the placenta is removed from the body,
00:24:42.349 --> 00:24:46.540
you have that crash and then it starts stabilizing in 24 hours.
00:24:46.883 --> 00:24:52.101
So you have this hormone that took 10 months to build up in your system.
00:24:52.931 --> 00:24:56.861
10 months. So it's like the rug being pulled out, just snatched right out. Oh, my God.
00:24:57.006 --> 00:25:01.841
The house being burned, the rug being pulled out. Not the rug. Yeah, the house. Okay.
00:25:02.834 --> 00:25:07.636
Everything. And then, so then you look at from an evolutionary standpoint,
00:25:07.636 --> 00:25:11.136
like, okay, you know, why is this happening?
00:25:11.136 --> 00:25:15.816
Because you need that pregnancy body to know what happens with progesterone
00:25:15.816 --> 00:25:19.806
and estrogen. You do have the other hormones that make the milk,
00:25:19.806 --> 00:25:22.181
which is prolactin and oxytocin.
00:25:22.605 --> 00:25:27.385
So oxytocin in layman's term is also pitocin. You guys might have heard that.
00:25:27.751 --> 00:25:30.746
That helps with the contractions, right? But you have to have that suppressed.
00:25:30.746 --> 00:25:35.675
You don't want contractions until your baby is fully mature to be born.
00:25:36.110 --> 00:25:42.216
So that hormones, that dance with those hormones is suppressing the hormones
00:25:42.216 --> 00:25:44.428
that allow breastfeeding to happen.
00:25:44.799 --> 00:25:50.426
So you actually, the minute the baby's born, you have to go from this physiology
00:25:50.426 --> 00:25:55.196
of pregnancy body to the physiology of a breastfeeding body.
00:25:55.196 --> 00:26:00.663
So you have to crash. You have to bring those hormones down for that evolutionary switch to happen.
00:26:01.312 --> 00:26:05.616
That's what's going on. That is absolutely fascinating. I mean,
00:26:05.616 --> 00:26:10.656
considering this is my, I mean, I'm not in medicine, right? I'm medically adjacent
00:26:10.656 --> 00:26:14.890
and obviously working with pregnant women for 30 years.
00:26:15.372 --> 00:26:18.083
I've never heard it described in this way.
00:26:18.704 --> 00:26:20.271
This is fascinating to me.
00:26:21.041 --> 00:26:24.268
And that's why I love bringing the science to this talk. Because,
00:26:24.826 --> 00:26:30.120
again, it gives you more empowerment about what else is going on in your body.
00:26:30.288 --> 00:26:32.181
And you're like, oh, well, that makes sense.
00:26:32.494 --> 00:26:36.610
Right. Or is it just me, right? The self-doubt that naturally creeps in. Yes.
00:26:36.952 --> 00:26:42.816
Yes. And that's the other thing, too, is we have scared you guys to not have
00:26:42.816 --> 00:26:45.097
emotions in the fourth trimester.
00:26:45.474 --> 00:26:49.323
Oh, if you even have intrusive thoughts or if you have self-doubt,
00:26:49.654 --> 00:26:51.099
oh, you might be depressed.
00:26:51.890 --> 00:26:56.712
And you're like, no, that's not what we've, what, that was not supposed to be
00:26:56.712 --> 00:27:01.229
the messaging at all. Because why? Okay, now let's look at it from an evolutionary standpoint, right?
00:27:01.659 --> 00:27:06.052
Why do we have to have anxiety? Why do we have to be sad, right?
00:27:06.052 --> 00:27:09.962
Have you ever like thought of it that way? Like, why are you making me have
00:27:09.962 --> 00:27:12.332
anxiety? Why am I sad? Why am
00:27:12.332 --> 00:27:18.006
I angry? Why, why is my body like having hot flashes essentially, right?
00:27:18.383 --> 00:27:24.292
Why am I doing that? It's because we have to have those emotions to connect
00:27:24.635 --> 00:27:27.872
with the baby that we've just birthed. If we were going to be stoic,
00:27:27.872 --> 00:27:30.759
then we would not respond to every wimp.
00:27:31.148 --> 00:27:34.741
Every, you know, babies make so much noise.
00:27:35.008 --> 00:27:39.302
And every time they make a noise, your body's like full alert because we have
00:27:39.302 --> 00:27:46.572
to protect those newborns until they're able to be on their own walking and talking for a year.
00:27:47.148 --> 00:27:50.922
And we can't birth a year old babies because then our pelvises would be so huge
00:27:50.922 --> 00:27:52.239
and we wouldn't be able to walk.
00:27:52.750 --> 00:27:56.482
So evolution decided that, hey, listen, you know, if you want to walk,
00:27:56.482 --> 00:27:59.192
your babies are going to be immature. And if your babies are going to be immature,
00:27:59.192 --> 00:28:05.142
you need to have emotions to make sure that you are always on high alert because
00:28:05.142 --> 00:28:06.999
there might be a predator on the loose.
00:28:07.115 --> 00:28:09.408
And then we take that and we put it in the modern world.
00:28:11.115 --> 00:28:16.092
That's a fascinating perspective as well, right? I mean, it's all of these hormones
00:28:16.092 --> 00:28:21.639
in the process, you know, kind of playing concert together to create this very sensitive,
00:28:22.144 --> 00:28:27.072
empathetic, emotional mother-child bond, I guess.
00:28:27.072 --> 00:28:31.292
Right. That it's really an evolutionary way to look at it, that it's necessary,
00:28:31.292 --> 00:28:35.592
but it doesn't make it any easier. Of course, even when you do understand the
00:28:35.592 --> 00:28:39.657
science and the mechanics behind it and why it's happening, it still doesn't take away everything.
00:28:40.250 --> 00:28:44.853
You know, the sensitivity or even, frankly, the sadness sometimes.
00:28:44.853 --> 00:28:47.326
I just remember being so sad.
00:28:47.895 --> 00:28:51.413
And I just couldn't make sense of it because, boy, was I a tough cookie on the
00:28:51.413 --> 00:28:54.593
outside. I was perfectly capable. This wasn't going to happen to me.
00:28:54.593 --> 00:28:58.943
But there was a profound sadness. And I just didn't know, you know,
00:28:58.943 --> 00:29:00.783
the well from which it was emerging.
00:29:01.183 --> 00:29:04.953
And, you know, hearing you describe it all these years later and hopefully our
00:29:04.953 --> 00:29:09.511
listeners, they can clue in and say, aha, that's what's happening.
00:29:09.917 --> 00:29:15.269
And, you know, even that could just be a bit of a salve to make it all better in the moment.
00:29:15.675 --> 00:29:18.531
Because sometimes it's just the little wins to get through the day.
00:29:19.059 --> 00:29:23.239
Of course. And then that's why we then if we put that knowledge in,
00:29:23.686 --> 00:29:26.878
this whole idea of self-care, I mean, how are you going to self-care, right?
00:29:27.354 --> 00:29:32.776
But that's when if you and your family can understand that perspective,
00:29:33.055 --> 00:29:35.113
then when I tell you, I hate you
00:29:35.113 --> 00:29:38.761
to sleep at this certain time because the hormones are making you do that.
00:29:39.191 --> 00:29:44.293
You start oh okay that makes sense oh i need to i need you to take vitamin d
00:29:44.293 --> 00:29:49.396
at this higher level because of these shifts that are happening i need you to take magnesium
00:29:49.802 --> 00:29:54.433
because of the cardiovascular and sleep benefits that is happening because of
00:29:54.433 --> 00:29:56.731
the physiology that's going in your body
00:29:57.172 --> 00:30:00.423
now when you explain it that way it's like explaining to,
00:30:00.943 --> 00:30:04.883
any other disease processes that occurs in medicines like oh you have diabetes
00:30:04.883 --> 00:30:09.623
well you can't have sugar right oh yes so then your whole family is like,
00:30:09.623 --> 00:30:11.953
no, we can't have cake or we can't have this.
00:30:11.953 --> 00:30:17.176
And they mold around you to make sure that you are also being taken care of.
00:30:17.623 --> 00:30:21.223
And so that's when you asked me the question. I didn't want to not allude to
00:30:21.223 --> 00:30:25.103
it, but I think bringing it back to it is that, first of all,
00:30:25.103 --> 00:30:28.449
we need to stop scaring mothers to even asking the question.
00:30:28.978 --> 00:30:34.683
When we created Naya, that was literally, that's one thing that sits in my head
00:30:34.683 --> 00:30:36.183
because when we were testing, we,
00:30:36.676 --> 00:30:42.500
One person actually said, oh, wow, this is really awesome for those moms that
00:30:42.500 --> 00:30:44.210
are afraid to ask the questions.
00:30:44.800 --> 00:30:48.900
And I was just stunned because I was like, oh, my God, we literally have created
00:30:48.900 --> 00:30:53.780
it where you can't even ask those questions. So going back to the mental health
00:30:53.780 --> 00:30:58.522
part is, you know, we have all these amazing resources out there.
00:30:59.102 --> 00:31:03.500
But if you're not a shock like symptoms, you know, we just explained how the
00:31:03.500 --> 00:31:06.720
shock can occur. How are you going to care for yourself?
00:31:07.580 --> 00:31:12.640
It's just mind-boggling to be like, of course, I need to go seek care. I'm like, how?
00:31:13.780 --> 00:31:15.478
How? How am I going to do this? So...
00:31:16.459 --> 00:31:20.851
You know, I'd love, you know, since this is a surrogacy-centric podcast,
00:31:20.851 --> 00:31:23.081
a lot of the surrogates are surely tuning in.
00:31:23.441 --> 00:31:28.241
And I can imagine maybe some of the common question, a common question that's
00:31:28.241 --> 00:31:31.499
bubbling up for them is like, okay, I'm hearing a lot about,
00:31:32.202 --> 00:31:36.526
the medical aspect, the evolutionary aspect, the mental health challenges,
00:31:36.753 --> 00:31:38.941
but I'm still not bringing home a baby.
00:31:39.516 --> 00:31:44.227
Is this going to give me a perhaps a more opportune.
00:31:44.865 --> 00:31:50.061
Chance to recover faster better without you know some of the obstacles in the
00:31:50.061 --> 00:31:53.871
way so maybe if you could shed any light on how the fourth trimester could be
00:31:53.871 --> 00:31:56.961
different for a surrogate who isn't bringing home a baby and what that might
00:31:56.961 --> 00:31:59.083
look for like for her and is there
00:31:59.426 --> 00:32:03.037
you know an advantage to her healing more quickly.
00:32:03.661 --> 00:32:08.871
Yeah so we have to look at, I always say physical, mental, and feeding for my
00:32:08.871 --> 00:32:09.991
surrogate mothers, okay?
00:32:09.991 --> 00:32:15.211
So physical, again, the science, the pelvic healing, right? So you have gone
00:32:15.211 --> 00:32:17.709
through pregnancy, and you have gone through a delivery.
00:32:18.087 --> 00:32:22.291
Now, this thing that we've been fed that, you know, once, like,
00:32:22.291 --> 00:32:27.191
I had a baby, I sneezed, I leak, well, that's wrong, because we never was able
00:32:27.191 --> 00:32:31.996
to tell you that, hey, this is your pelvic health that we need to take care of.
00:32:32.286 --> 00:32:36.931
So one point, your pelvic health, and why is that so important is because you
00:32:36.931 --> 00:32:40.558
do have relaxant and relaxant is a hormone that's made in the pregnancy
00:32:40.993 --> 00:32:47.330
that actually relaxes just like it does your ligaments to open up that pelvis brim.
00:32:47.626 --> 00:32:50.988
So when you are opening up that pelvis brim, again, it takes 10 months,
00:32:51.464 --> 00:32:54.291
you should be protecting it for three months.
00:32:54.291 --> 00:32:58.988
So it's not to say don't do any exercises, but it is to like start focusing
00:32:59.376 --> 00:33:05.801
on breath work, on opening up those core muscles and starting to engage in those
00:33:05.801 --> 00:33:08.408
core muscles in a right manner.
00:33:08.769 --> 00:33:11.771
So a lot of my moms, you know, I mean, I was guilty of it, too.
00:33:11.771 --> 00:33:16.211
I started running two weeks after I had a baby, thought I was like the queen
00:33:16.211 --> 00:33:18.184
of the world. I was like, oh, my God, look at me. Right? Right.
00:33:19.246 --> 00:33:23.983
That's why I deal with ICs, because no one told me that my pelvic health,
00:33:23.983 --> 00:33:27.850
I needed three months for that pelvis, but it doesn't mean that I couldn't have walked.
00:33:28.326 --> 00:33:31.704
I should not have been doing any high-impact activity until three months.
00:33:32.146 --> 00:33:35.570
So even for my surrogate mothers who go to their six-week appointments,
00:33:35.871 --> 00:33:37.723
you need pelvic physical therapy. That.
00:33:39.743 --> 00:33:44.553
Should be just like a standing order in every medical thing.
00:33:44.553 --> 00:33:47.788
It's like, oh, you walk funny, you need pelvic physical therapy. So that's one.
00:33:48.390 --> 00:33:54.583
Now, the mental part of it, because, you know, from the physical recovery from
00:33:54.583 --> 00:33:58.293
birth is just so important and depends on where you have landed.
00:33:58.293 --> 00:33:59.426
Have you had a C-section?
00:33:59.826 --> 00:34:03.103
Have you had like me? I've had one that has a grade three, a grade four.
00:34:03.103 --> 00:34:08.163
Like, where are you? And that physical recovery really needs to be honored as
00:34:08.163 --> 00:34:12.543
well. And so you can practice what we say in the Eastern culture.
00:34:13.063 --> 00:34:16.563
And we've done, we've westernized it by saying five, five, five.
00:34:16.563 --> 00:34:20.644
And there was pushback on that, but it doesn't mean that you're not stagnant.
00:34:21.090 --> 00:34:28.357
It means that you have to focus on your actual physical healing. So 555 means five days.
00:34:28.578 --> 00:34:31.765
So this is from birth. It means five days in bed.
00:34:32.366 --> 00:34:34.943
It doesn't mean you can't get out of bed. It means that, okay,
00:34:34.943 --> 00:34:36.843
you know what? You should not be doing the household chores.
00:34:38.203 --> 00:34:42.543
That's what it means, right? Five days on the bed, meaning, okay,
00:34:42.543 --> 00:34:46.363
please start increasing some of your activities, but make sure that,
00:34:46.363 --> 00:34:49.948
you know, you have your bed to come back to if it feels too much.
00:34:50.465 --> 00:34:55.573
And five days next to bed, again, increasing activity while also recognizing
00:34:55.573 --> 00:34:58.825
that you're not going to be, you know, running around part of it.
00:34:58.947 --> 00:35:04.183
So that's your physical healing. And that's really important because that leads
00:35:04.183 --> 00:35:06.034
into the mental aspect of it.
00:35:06.459 --> 00:35:10.843
I mean, I got postpartum depression with my second because I had a grade three, grade four tear.
00:35:10.843 --> 00:35:16.433
And for those people who don't know what that is, I had a tear all the way to
00:35:16.433 --> 00:35:20.076
the muscles for defecation, too. So basically, I couldn't poop.
00:35:20.372 --> 00:35:21.858
Like, it was so miserable.
00:35:22.700 --> 00:35:27.209
No one told me about these 5-5-5 rules, and I've already told you my privilege
00:35:27.209 --> 00:35:30.694
part of it. It's not that I was running or I was doing any household work,
00:35:31.129 --> 00:35:36.229
but I was still seeking care for my newborn. I had to go to the pediatrician every so often.
00:35:36.589 --> 00:35:39.226
I'm the one who's going, right, because I'm the breastfeeding mother.
00:35:39.876 --> 00:35:45.919
So physical healing just really goes into the mental part of it.
00:35:45.919 --> 00:35:51.266
And then the mental aspect of it, again, vitamin D, magnesium, calories, right?
00:35:51.597 --> 00:35:56.889
Like you really also, you have to heal from calories. And I was like,
00:35:56.889 --> 00:35:59.800
who doesn't like a good ice cream after the entire birth?
00:36:00.200 --> 00:36:05.539
Well, right. And, you know, generally, you know, mothers need to be fed, right?
00:36:05.539 --> 00:36:09.069
Or the person who has delivered. And sometimes that gets missed,
00:36:09.069 --> 00:36:12.829
you know, and she just thinks, oh, feeding myself is secondary to all of this.
00:36:12.829 --> 00:36:16.979
I'm not even hungry because I'm stressed out or just sleep deprived.
00:36:16.979 --> 00:36:20.727
I can't even think about food. And somebody does need to nourish her.
00:36:21.318 --> 00:36:26.419
Yes, yes. And then with the feeding aspect of it, I mean, are you are you planning
00:36:26.419 --> 00:36:30.037
to breastfeed in the sense that are you planning to pump and give the milk or,
00:36:30.548 --> 00:36:33.224
are you wanting to, you know, like that's it?
00:36:33.561 --> 00:36:37.479
And what does that look like? How can we help your breast transition as well?
00:36:37.479 --> 00:36:39.629
Because your breasts are just like they don't understand it,
00:36:39.629 --> 00:36:41.525
right? They're just like, well, I'm going to make the milk.
00:36:42.071 --> 00:36:45.289
And you're like, no, no, well, let me help you transition whichever way you
00:36:45.289 --> 00:36:47.597
need, because we don't want you to be in pain. Right.
00:36:48.292 --> 00:36:53.342
And the other thing is that one of our platforms that we do talk about is maternal
00:36:53.342 --> 00:36:59.032
mortality. And any person who has gone through pregnancy is also at a risk of
00:36:59.032 --> 00:37:02.380
maternal mortality. We do this thing on our socials. So please join.
00:37:02.943 --> 00:37:06.052
It's called Day After Mother's Day because we want to honor all the women that
00:37:06.052 --> 00:37:10.144
have passed away the year before. This is our third year doing it as well.
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:15.152
And two years ago, we actually had a surrogate mom on there because she did
00:37:15.152 --> 00:37:19.222
pass away from maternal mortality risk, particularly cardiovascular,
00:37:19.222 --> 00:37:22.342
after she had given birth to the surrogate.
00:37:22.342 --> 00:37:25.932
And then she herself had two other kids of her own with her husband,
00:37:25.932 --> 00:37:32.417
and she was doing it for a friend. It was a very sad story in that sense. So you do matter.
00:37:32.556 --> 00:37:39.082
And so please don't deny or deflect any symptoms that you might think are unusual
00:37:39.082 --> 00:37:40.353
in the time period as well.
00:37:41.232 --> 00:37:46.212
That's fantastic advice. You know, I think maybe you are aware of this too.
00:37:46.212 --> 00:37:50.722
I read somewhere years ago that in the Japanese culture, and I think it's perhaps
00:37:50.722 --> 00:37:57.826
in today's day and age, perhaps more rural than urban, but their tradition is for the first 30 days,
00:37:58.441 --> 00:38:02.512
a mom completely bonds with her newborn and she doesn't do anything.
00:38:02.512 --> 00:38:06.551
And women in the village come to her and care for all of her needs in the house,
00:38:07.027 --> 00:38:10.182
so that she, you know, I wouldn't say quite literally doesn't get out of bed,
00:38:10.182 --> 00:38:15.232
of course, but, you know, she has no obligation to her household other than
00:38:15.232 --> 00:38:17.731
taking care of and bonding with her infant.
00:38:18.632 --> 00:38:21.892
But after 30 days, you know, it's not a full trimester, right?
00:38:21.892 --> 00:38:26.856
At 12 weeks, she gets 30 days. But I just thought there was such a beautiful way of approaching,
00:38:27.734 --> 00:38:33.181
you know, the postpartum period of time where you can just relax and know it's
00:38:33.181 --> 00:38:36.841
part of the system and tradition where you don't have to worry or argue with
00:38:36.841 --> 00:38:40.721
your partner about who's going to make the dinner or fold the laundry.
00:38:40.721 --> 00:38:44.301
So I just, I don't know if you're aware of that tradition.
00:38:44.873 --> 00:38:49.310
Yes, because we have a similar tradition of 40 days in our culture.
00:38:49.612 --> 00:38:54.291
And it's just, yeah, so it's different aspects of it. And yeah,
00:38:54.291 --> 00:38:59.533
you do. So traditionally in our culture too, we go to our maternal home to deliver.
00:39:00.631 --> 00:39:03.870
As opposed to staying at our in-laws area.
00:39:04.358 --> 00:39:08.361
And because you've grown up with those people, you're the most vulnerable.
00:39:08.361 --> 00:39:09.822
You're the most raw, right?
00:39:10.054 --> 00:39:16.121
During that period. And so you go back to your maternal home where you've actually
00:39:16.121 --> 00:39:18.877
grown up with all the aunts and uncles and stuff like that. So yeah.
00:39:19.493 --> 00:39:24.831
Dr. Patel, where do you think this sort of average six-week period arose.
00:39:24.831 --> 00:39:28.731
You know, the six-week checkup, the six-week, you know, maternity leave.
00:39:28.731 --> 00:39:30.834
Where did that come from?
00:39:31.831 --> 00:39:36.191
Do you think that we're starting to break free of that? Oh, I hope so.
00:39:36.191 --> 00:39:39.951
I don't think so quite yet, but I actually wrote a, I know you had mentioned
00:39:39.951 --> 00:39:42.701
it, but I wrote a book, The Doctor and Her Black Bag. It's on Amazon,
00:39:42.701 --> 00:39:46.859
and I had to research this as well. So I exactly know where it came from.
00:39:47.364 --> 00:39:51.730
So what happened was in the turn of the century of the last century,
00:39:52.147 --> 00:39:56.401
we became, there was a couple of things that were going on simultaneously.
00:39:56.401 --> 00:39:59.613
In the medical field, we discovered germs were most of the culprits.
00:39:59.962 --> 00:40:03.880
Then we started discovering anesthesia. We have these ideas of hospitals.
00:40:04.531 --> 00:40:08.577
And then we're going to look at the century overall, right?
00:40:09.064 --> 00:40:12.751
And then we had a couple of wars. We had a couple of feminist movements going
00:40:12.751 --> 00:40:16.233
on, all kind of going on simultaneously.
00:40:17.005 --> 00:40:23.853
When the industrial movement happened, we had a lot of people move from the rural to urban areas.
00:40:24.347 --> 00:40:31.191
Now, birth was always, prior to all of this advancements in medicine and in
00:40:31.191 --> 00:40:38.341
technology, was a midwifery-led movement where you would have midwives coming to the house.
00:40:38.341 --> 00:40:42.611
I mean, just in the book, it was actually very lovely researching it.
00:40:42.971 --> 00:40:46.531
The dad would go ringing and saying, hey, my wife's delivering.
00:40:46.531 --> 00:40:54.649
And then all the moms or all the sisterhood would come there and they were called god sis.
00:40:55.055 --> 00:40:59.701
This is a fun fact. God sis, that's how we got the word gossip because,
00:40:59.701 --> 00:41:03.269
you know, birth can happen in an hour or it can take 48 hours.
00:41:03.559 --> 00:41:07.811
So these god sis, i.e. Moodwives would come and just chit chat and gossip.
00:41:07.811 --> 00:41:12.491
Oh, and just pass the time chit chatting. Oh, fun fact. Fun fact.
00:41:13.251 --> 00:41:17.085
So that's how we get gossip because it was the god sis chit-chatting.
00:41:17.741 --> 00:41:25.531
So then when we had the turn of the century, birth started becoming very medicalized.
00:41:25.886 --> 00:41:31.581
And because the hospitals, due to the germ theory, were able to show higher
00:41:31.581 --> 00:41:35.406
survivability in birth for the mom and the baby.
00:41:35.975 --> 00:41:43.411
And so birth has gone through this enormous transition from being super medicalized
00:41:43.411 --> 00:41:48.032
to now people doing free birth. There's a whole arc for it.
00:41:48.572 --> 00:41:53.391
And then the six-week appointment came because there was a certain point of
00:41:53.391 --> 00:42:00.508
balance of the OB-GYN and the doctors and the midwives kind of saying, okay, you know what?
00:42:01.090 --> 00:42:05.391
Oh, midwife, you got this. Go ahead. If she needs me, you know,
00:42:05.751 --> 00:42:08.581
she can come. Otherwise, we'll just see her in six weeks. That's okay.
00:42:08.581 --> 00:42:10.175
We'll just do a touchpoint of that.
00:42:10.645 --> 00:42:14.481
So that's where it comes from. There's no, like, science behind it.
00:42:14.481 --> 00:42:16.043
It literally was like...
00:42:16.868 --> 00:42:19.976
You know, you have a midwife at home. You're going to be doing fine.
00:42:19.976 --> 00:42:22.927
If you need me, we'll just see you at six weeks. So it's not crazy.
00:42:23.350 --> 00:42:28.766
Isn't that insane? Unbelievable. And it has stuck. And it is now deeply rooted
00:42:28.766 --> 00:42:31.500
in the medical community as standard of care, right?
00:42:31.994 --> 00:42:36.926
Incredible. And so, but hopefully you are seeing a light at the end of the tunnel
00:42:36.926 --> 00:42:38.196
through all of your good work.
00:42:38.196 --> 00:42:41.436
And that's maybe some of this is easing. I mean, I think as,
00:42:41.436 --> 00:42:45.421
you know, conceivability is as an employer. And when I when I talk to other,
00:42:45.902 --> 00:42:53.107
you know, leaders of businesses, they are creating more space and time for birthing mothers to take off.
00:42:53.633 --> 00:42:57.746
Right. It's, you know, there's a lot more support, understanding and education
00:42:57.746 --> 00:43:03.135
around that topic. So I'm happy to see that. But, you know, I believe you, we have a long way to go.
00:43:03.782 --> 00:43:08.919
Yes, our healthcare system. See, I actually distinguish medicine and healthcare.
00:43:08.919 --> 00:43:13.785
I love medicine. Medicine is just such a privilege and an honor to study the human body.
00:43:14.137 --> 00:43:19.681
And I'm an avid ongoing learner. But our healthcare system is just so,
00:43:20.251 --> 00:43:23.786
nothing changes very fast with the healthcare system.
00:43:24.308 --> 00:43:29.789
And it will take a little bit more, but it is going to be the work of all of
00:43:29.789 --> 00:43:33.817
us to make it being like align with the fact that.
00:43:34.759 --> 00:43:40.269
Just how the corporations and businesses are saying oh you know actually we
00:43:40.269 --> 00:43:44.539
actually if we invested you in these three months we're going to get a more
00:43:44.539 --> 00:43:46.539
productive worker and that means
00:43:46.539 --> 00:43:49.709
you're going to take less time off you're going to be more aligned to.
00:43:50.499 --> 00:43:54.019
You know the company you're going to stay on and so our investment in you is
00:43:54.019 --> 00:43:58.129
going to be tenfold and you can see all the data on there.
00:43:58.129 --> 00:44:03.679
But yeah, the thing that's very discouraging is that we have this term called
00:44:03.679 --> 00:44:08.351
maternal deserts now that's popping up and it's exactly what you know.
00:44:08.925 --> 00:44:13.539
And so it's like a couple of steps forward, but also a couple of steps backwards.
00:44:13.539 --> 00:44:16.139
But we'll keep doing the work.
00:44:16.406 --> 00:44:19.709
We're going to keep doing the work. Incredible. Well, you know,
00:44:19.709 --> 00:44:21.642
I want to ask you one final question.
00:44:21.991 --> 00:44:26.860
What is the one thing you would want every woman entering her fourth trimester to hear from you.
00:44:27.629 --> 00:44:31.954
Oh, oh, my God. There's so much. And you're going to do for one thing.
00:44:32.570 --> 00:44:35.845
Honestly, I'm going to be selfish here and I'm going to plug me.
00:44:35.845 --> 00:44:39.035
Please, we offer free consults. You need me in your back pocket.
00:44:39.035 --> 00:44:41.691
I promise you, you need me in my back pocket.
00:44:42.090 --> 00:44:48.265
So come, just talk to me. Because the thing is, what that means is that you
00:44:48.265 --> 00:44:49.805
are starting to recognize that
00:44:49.805 --> 00:44:54.010
you are very important in this equation and babies are going to be fine.
00:44:54.550 --> 00:44:57.726
And at the end of the day, that's what we all want, healthy,
00:44:57.929 --> 00:45:00.848
happy, growing, thriving families.
00:45:01.371 --> 00:45:06.095
So, Dr. Patel, in order for folks to seek you out and find you and have that
00:45:06.095 --> 00:45:11.877
consult, they would go and visit you at niacare.org. Is that correct? Yes. Yes.
00:45:12.845 --> 00:45:17.246
And aside from niacare.org, is there another website, Dr. Patel?
00:45:17.839 --> 00:45:27.925
Yes, definitely. it is www.naya-app.ai. This is where you can basically talk
00:45:27.925 --> 00:45:29.240
to my brain. It's a virtual.
00:45:29.641 --> 00:45:35.550
Naya is your virtual AI companion for the fourth trimester. So come check her out and talk to my brain.
00:45:36.309 --> 00:45:41.175
Fantastic. And specifically, you can Google Dr. Sonal Patel.
00:45:41.175 --> 00:45:46.519
That's S-O-N-A-L, Last name Patel, P-A-T-E-L.
00:45:47.065 --> 00:45:51.255
Well, thank you, Dr. Patel. What a privilege to have you on our show today.
00:45:51.255 --> 00:45:55.842
I hope our listeners gained lots of information. I know I learned a ton.
00:45:56.282 --> 00:45:59.865
And you know, when you talk about being a lifelong learner, every single guest
00:45:59.865 --> 00:46:05.605
on this podcast just illuminates things for me that I just wasn't aware of before.
00:46:05.605 --> 00:46:10.159
And this talk with you in particular did that tenfold. So thank you so much.
00:46:10.571 --> 00:46:14.565
And I hope to see you again soon.
00:46:19.134 --> 00:46:24.257
What an amazing conversation. And as always, I walk away with some type of aha
00:46:24.257 --> 00:46:27.267
moment, and Dr. Patel was no exception.
00:46:27.806 --> 00:46:33.177
And I think for me, it was just incredible to know that for my entire career,
00:46:33.177 --> 00:46:40.937
I have devoted to family creation and family building, and postpartum has been part of that career.
00:46:40.937 --> 00:46:47.617
And even for me, I was unaware of all of the intricacies and the evolutionary
00:46:47.617 --> 00:46:50.897
underpinnings of what postpartum is really all about.
00:46:50.897 --> 00:46:57.157
So to hear her talk about hormonal shocks and shifts and all of the other interesting
00:46:57.157 --> 00:47:01.677
facets that play a role in aftercare, afterbirth care, is just incredible.
00:47:01.677 --> 00:47:04.707
So what a privilege to have Dr. Patel on our show.
00:47:05.027 --> 00:47:08.527
And for all of our listeners, until next time, take good care.
00:47:10.280 --> 00:47:15.157
Thanks for listening. At Conceivabilities, we believe everyone who dreams of
00:47:15.157 --> 00:47:18.065
becoming a parent deserves that chance.
00:47:18.419 --> 00:47:22.105
And it's strong, compassionate women who make it possible.
00:47:22.541 --> 00:47:28.021
With 30 years of experience building families, Conceivabilities has seen firsthand
00:47:28.363 --> 00:47:30.795
the incredible impact surrogates make.
00:47:31.277 --> 00:47:34.888
Women, like our surrogates, are a powerful force for change,
00:47:35.306 --> 00:47:40.017
uplifting families strengthening communities and proving that when women empower
00:47:40.017 --> 00:47:42.272
women anything is possible
00:47:42.661 --> 00:47:47.267
becoming a surrogate is more than a journey it's a chance to make a lasting
00:47:47.267 --> 00:47:53.713
impact learn more about surrogacy at conceivabilities.com because when the match is right,
00:47:54.300 --> 00:47:55.884
dreams come true.