Our Favorite Agent Setups

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The picture behind you, like everything's
on fire, that's actually my OpenClaw

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server a couple of times already.

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I mean, I set everything up and, when you
set it up as root, root, that's obviously

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bad advice, you should never do that.

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So it's running as root.

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And I got really frustrated in
Telegram and I'm writing something

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and I said, just delete it,
delete, you know, whatever it is.

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Well, OpenClaw took it literally and
deleted the entire project and down to

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the root and just deleted the server.

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No longer responsive.

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I was like, wow.

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Okay, that worked.

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Hey, welcome to the
Agentic DevOps podcast.

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I am your host, Bret.

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And this episode I've got my friend
Brian Christner coming in from Europe.

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We've known each other for a decade.

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He's a Docker Captain alumni, and
really one of these leading edge

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tech guys that's always focused on
cloud native, leading edge tech.

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He actually runs an online casino
company out of Switzerland.

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And we don't really get too much
into the weeds of that whole world,

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but he runs developer teams, he
manages an organization, he has to

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worry about security policy for AI.

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And so we talk a little bit about that.

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This whole episode is mostly around
what we're both seeing in terms of

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tooling, agent harnesses, the models
that we recommend and pick right now,

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because right now there is at least
a distinct difference between the

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very top of the line models like Opus
and GPT 5.4 versus everything else.

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And we get in the weeds of it.

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We talk about security strategy
around OpenClaw because if you've

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heard about that thing in the
last couple of months, like it is

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definitely capturing the zeitgeist.

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And then even a new project called
NanoClaw, which is a variant of

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OpenClaw-- or really, I should say a, I
guess a competitor technically, 'cause

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it sounds like it's, it's written from
scratch-- and it runs natively in Docker

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containers, which is the whole goal here.

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I'm really hoping that very soon we're
all gonna be running these things in

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some sort of encapsulated protection
area, like a container provides, right?

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We've seen Claude Cowork recently shift to
an actual VM, so if you're interested in

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Claude Cowork, we know that that thing is
isolated on your machine, away from your

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standard operating system, 'cause it runs
in Linux VM, just like Docker containers.

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But it's nice to see new projects
coming out that are doubling down on

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container use because I've been waiting
for the industry to finally catch up

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with the security practices and all
of the isolation technologies that

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we've built for the last few decades
and make that the standard for using

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AI agents, which as we know sometimes
hallucinate and tend to install tools

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and do things on your local system
that maybe you don't want them to do.

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So it's a great conversation covering a
wide array of AI issues, and I hope you

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enjoy this episode with Brian Christner.

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hello, Brian.

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Hey, Bret.

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How you doing?

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All right.

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I'm glad to have you here.

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this is Brian Christner.

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We are on the opposite sides
of the pond from each other.

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I'm over in North America, he's in Europe
and Switzerland So Brian, so Brian and

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I go back, over, I think over a decade
at this point, at least probably a

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decade cause you're an OG captain and
we, so we've got a lot of experience

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in containers and infrastructure.

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sure.

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Now you manage teams of engineers, is
that an accurate statement or a team?

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Yeah, so I'm part of our organization.

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We have a development team that's
handling a lot of our infrastructure that

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they're building Kubernetes clusters.

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They have everything built there, but,
essentially I'm running an online casino.

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one of the top three largest casinos
in Switzerland, and we obviously have

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a lot of data and this data is in,
in the massive database, but it's

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all orchestrated with Kubernetes and
our services that we are creating.

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Yeah.

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And we've had you on and talked
about some of that stuff.

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We actually had a really popular
episode with Brian a couple of years

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ago that I probably should have pulled
up because we were talking about jobs.

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Of course, that has aged not
like fine wine because job

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market right now is insanity.

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Yeah.

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I'm not sure any of those rules
have changed though, but we

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talked about like DevOps roles
and operations engineering roles.

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And like helping people sort of trying
to give them like junior career advice,

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like how, you know, how to, how to
help you stand out from the crowd.

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I think now everyone's just scrambling to
know as much AI as possible, anticipating

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some sort of job shortage that only
will be saved by you knowing AI, which

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is kind of, I mean, we say it nicely.

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We say it with like, I think the industry
has been saying, you know, the, you

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won't be replaced by AI, you'll be
replaced by someone who knows AI, I

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think is the thing that we all say.

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I'm not convinced that
that's entirely true.

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I'm getting more anecdotes or
well, directly from friends.

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I just talked to someone this last
week that is losing their lead

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DevOps engineer that isn't sure
they're going to get permission

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from management to replace them.

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So they're scrambling to figure out if
AI can, like, help them automate some

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of the toil that the DevOps engineer was
doing, like, like the daily stuff that

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the normal activities and if they can like
use skills or I was advocating for skills.

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I've been in love with skills
for a couple of months now.

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And I'm sure we're going to
talk to each fan as well.

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Yep.

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I'm interested in hearing
Brian's stories about OpenClaw.

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We're going to talk
about that a little bit.

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But, I'm not sure we're going to
specifically talk about DevOps AI

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advice but that's my whole jam is
trying to figure out where these

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tools work and helping us with,
obviously they can write Terraform.

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Obviously they can write, you know,
GitHub actions, workflow files.

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Like that's a thing, but how do we.

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How do we automate things that weren't
previously automatable by putting

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in a non deterministic robot is
kind of where my head's at lately.

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I think I wanted to hear from you
on other than OpenClaw, which I

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guess we really, that's not, we
technically, I guess we call that an

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agent harness, but it's not a harness
for code necessarily or text writing.

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I mean a way to describe OpenClaw
sorry to interrupt you Bret is like

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OpenClaw is essentially an orchestrator
of LLMs because you're able to connect

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to any LLM lLM you want out there.

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So you can connect to OpenAI,
Gemini, Cloud, whatever you want.

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And you can switch between the
two and you can really configure

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down to the agent level.

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And that's where I find the superpower
of OpenClawd at the moment because

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it's open source and you can really
configure it however you want.

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So you're not tied into a specific
LLM of the day, flavor of the day LLM.

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Right, but you wouldn't use necessarily
OpenClaw to stare at code while you're,

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like you would Claude Code, right?

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Like you wouldn't, it's not a TUI
in the way that we think of like

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Claude Code or OpenCode or VS Code.

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So

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I'm thinking more like kicking
off tasks, like, Hey, can

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you go research this for me?

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Can you go, you know,
build this marketing plan?

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These type of tasks, perfect use case.

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But I mean, like coding, like you
said, it's better than terminal.

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Okay.

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So before we get into OpenClaw,
because I feel like the whole

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episode could be consumed by that.

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And I want to get to that.

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I wanted to talk first around,
like, what are you hearing?

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Like, what is the general
vibe in the company?

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Are you allowed to use AI at
all, even in your industry?

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Is that something that, that your
engineers are able to take advantage of?

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And if so, like, what?

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What are some of the
things you're seeing out?

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Are they choosing Claude Code?

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Are, is, are you seeing that happening?

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I was just looking for a firsthand.

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We really have like an AI enabler within
the company and she does an amazing job.

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She like onboards everybody
within the company.

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And think of us, we're an online casino
and we have a physical casino as well.

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So we have everything from cooks to like
casino technicians to online developers.

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We have everything in between.

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And the onboarding of these
different skills is just amazing.

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Cause I mean, like, our chef.

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Our executive chef, I mean, he's
built a complete course around

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how you can make like, AI,
brunches and everything like this.

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How you do all your ordering
and everything through AI.

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So, I mean, we're really
enabling everyone within the

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organization, which is really cool.

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Yeah.

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The challenge is, there's,
it's moving so fast.

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So, trying to keep everyone
updated and keeping the guardrails

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in place is very difficult.

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And we don't want to load any
customer data in there, that's

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definitely a no go for us.

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So we're keeping no go
out, all customer data.

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But as far as like, just, yeah, normal
KPIs or like marketing, these types

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of things where it's not the customer
impacting, that's no problem for us.

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Are they prescriptive or as an
organization, are you prescriptive in

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like what harnesses or IDEs people use
or people able to just, is it like when

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you think of your, from your security
mindset, are you focused on particular

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model companies or cause organizations
I've seen, like, there's all sorts of

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things, everything's wild, wild west,
but you know, some companies are like,

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you know, we have Gemini and that's the,
and that is what we bought as a company

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and that's what all developers will use.

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And so then you're kind of, as an
engineer, you're sort of limited

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to whatever the company buys you.

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And then you sort of see this shadow
AI where people sort of sneak out and

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do something that's maybe not approved.

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How do you think of it?

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Do you think, like, you've got a
plethora of things and everybody

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can choose from a smorgasbord.

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How does that go?

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So, I mean, we, we have like a
AI steering committee where we

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actually decide which tools we
should onboard within the company.

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And it's really like, you know,
where's the data stored and what

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kind of data protection do they
have, these types of things.

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But I mean, generally all the
tools are available to us.

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That's most people would use.

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There are some exceptions, you know, some
of the Chinese models and whatnot, it's

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just, they don't follow the European data
regulation, so we can't onboard them.

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And that's a hard no for us.

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But otherwise, I mean,
everything's quite open for us.

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So, I mean, we have Gemini in use,
we have Perplexity, we have OpenClaw,

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I mean, not OpenClaw, Claude, but
we have all these things running.

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So it's basically whatever your
use case is, you can kind of

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pull that specific model down.

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Now for the, the majority of people
within the company, we try to onboard

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them to Copilot, just because it's easier.

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Yeah, the guardrails are much
easier to control and yeah, we

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know what's going into the model.

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Now, developers, obviously they
want more, they want more control.

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So I mean, they're going
direction OpenAI and Claude.

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Okay.

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So when you say, when you said,
Copilot, you're specifically talking

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about Microsoft Copilot, not GitHub.

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Microsoft Copilot.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Yeah.

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Okay.

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horrible branding by Microsoft, right?

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So everyone gets confused.

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Naming is hard, man.

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Naming is hard.

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I mean, I do appreciate it.

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if it was, I feel like it'd be much more
Microsofty if it was more like every one

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of them was Copilot, but the la instead
of it being very vague and confusing

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that there's another couple of words
after that that we have to say, right?

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Like, yeah.

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Exactly.

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Yeah.

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I would, if it was Microsoft, original,
it would be like Microsoft Copilot

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something edition, you know, V two or so.

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And then that, and we'd have to say that
because then there's also this other thing

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that's other edition and we'd have to have
an acronym dash dash because it would be

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too long to say, so we'd have to right.

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Yeah, because I'm obviously,
because I'm such a GitHub person,

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I mean, I'm teaching GitHub.

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I've consulted on GitHub for at least six
years, specifically around GitHub actions,

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because that's, I'm not necessarily
teaching people how to do commits.

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I'm teaching them more about
workflows and automation and

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deployments and all that stuff.

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Obviously my Copilot world is
rolled around in GitHub Copilot.

228
00:11:19,364 --> 00:11:22,664
I am aware that there is a
Microsoft Copilot and I technically.

229
00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:26,719
I think I used it a few times with an
Office 365 account, but I see it a lot

230
00:11:26,729 --> 00:11:29,649
with other like non tech business friends.

231
00:11:29,659 --> 00:11:33,089
I see them in chat on a mobile,
on the mobile Copilot app.

232
00:11:34,014 --> 00:11:38,334
And they talk about their work AI a lot,
so that's a big win for Microsoft there.

233
00:11:38,404 --> 00:11:39,514
I mean, it's decent.

234
00:11:39,534 --> 00:11:44,214
I'm not a massive fan of it because I
mean, the hurdle to automate something

235
00:11:44,214 --> 00:11:46,594
with this is just, I mean, it's massive.

236
00:11:46,624 --> 00:11:52,674
I mean, for example, to automate an
email coming into your inbox and then

237
00:11:52,674 --> 00:11:57,764
feeding it to Copilot and having it
all working every day, is a mission.

238
00:11:58,234 --> 00:11:59,934
So, I mean, ClipPilot.

239
00:11:59,994 --> 00:12:01,124
I like that one from James.

240
00:12:01,124 --> 00:12:01,374
Yeah.

241
00:12:02,354 --> 00:12:02,834
Clippy.

242
00:12:02,835 --> 00:12:03,242
Clippy.

243
00:12:03,242 --> 00:12:03,649
ClippyPilot.

244
00:12:04,149 --> 00:12:05,429
but I mean, generally it's getting better.

245
00:12:05,429 --> 00:12:09,109
It's just, I mean, when you compare
it, it's supposed to be OpenAI, right?

246
00:12:09,519 --> 00:12:12,639
But if you compare a Copilot to
OpenAI, it's night and day difference.

247
00:12:12,849 --> 00:12:13,249
Okay.

248
00:12:13,309 --> 00:12:13,549
Yeah.

249
00:12:13,549 --> 00:12:15,989
So it's my, maybe an older,
or there's some, yeah, there's

250
00:12:15,989 --> 00:12:17,929
hidden, hidden, it's obscured away.

251
00:12:17,929 --> 00:12:18,129
Right.

252
00:12:18,129 --> 00:12:20,219
So we're not sure about what's
going on in the background.

253
00:12:20,269 --> 00:12:20,599
Exactly.

254
00:12:20,769 --> 00:12:22,669
Cause that, I mean,
that's the general vibe.

255
00:12:22,679 --> 00:12:24,619
I mean, we haven't, we talked about this.

256
00:12:24,749 --> 00:12:28,769
Like since Opus 4.5 was released in
November, I think the general vibe

257
00:12:28,769 --> 00:12:32,569
in the industry is like, okay, this,
that December might be, I think I

258
00:12:32,809 --> 00:12:34,209
was framing it this way yesterday.

259
00:12:34,709 --> 00:12:40,059
December is the epoch of
many of us suddenly taking AI

260
00:12:40,069 --> 00:12:42,589
seriously as an engineering tool.

261
00:12:43,089 --> 00:12:46,399
as opposed to it being
a fancy auto complete.

262
00:12:46,399 --> 00:12:52,249
And I spend far less time arguing,
I spend far less time dealing with

263
00:12:52,289 --> 00:12:55,909
hallucinations, and I think the way
we're going about it with some of these

264
00:12:55,919 --> 00:13:03,429
modern concepts of skills over skills
and maybe like, CLI over MCP, not that

265
00:13:03,429 --> 00:13:07,904
MCP's going away, but I think that It's
hype cycle has been pretty fast to go

266
00:13:07,904 --> 00:13:09,974
like all the way up to maximum hype.

267
00:13:10,014 --> 00:13:10,854
Incredible, right?

268
00:13:10,894 --> 00:13:13,634
And then like, everyone's like,
ah, it's not really that great.

269
00:13:13,644 --> 00:13:17,304
Actually, I'm not really even using
any, like, I just tell the, I just

270
00:13:17,304 --> 00:13:18,844
tell the tool to use my CLI tools.

271
00:13:19,114 --> 00:13:22,174
And so now you see things like
I just saw last week, was it?

272
00:13:22,674 --> 00:13:28,404
I think it's Google who launched a Google
Workspace or Google Docs, Google Sheets,

273
00:13:28,424 --> 00:13:31,424
Google Drive CLI, I think, I think it's

274
00:13:32,284 --> 00:13:32,974
really good.

275
00:13:33,474 --> 00:13:33,834
Is it good?

276
00:13:33,864 --> 00:13:34,044
Okay.

277
00:13:34,044 --> 00:13:34,134
Yeah.

278
00:13:34,264 --> 00:13:34,534
But it's like

279
00:13:34,534 --> 00:13:37,314
essentially like a MCP
to Google's ecosystem.

280
00:13:37,704 --> 00:13:38,034
Yeah.

281
00:13:38,104 --> 00:13:39,074
And it's quite nice.

282
00:13:39,124 --> 00:13:42,434
I mean, now if you get rate limited or
whatever, I don't know yet, but I'll

283
00:13:42,434 --> 00:13:43,924
definitely, it's on my to do list,

284
00:13:44,424 --> 00:13:45,654
but it's a CLI tool, right?

285
00:13:45,694 --> 00:13:47,674
My, my understanding is
it's a CLI tool, right?

286
00:13:47,674 --> 00:13:52,924
So instead of us having to add an MCP
tool with 50 or a hundred different

287
00:13:53,124 --> 00:13:57,244
MCP tools in it, and then worry about
security and authentication, we're

288
00:13:57,244 --> 00:14:02,334
just using a CLI tool and that CLI
tool manages its own authentication.

289
00:14:02,354 --> 00:14:06,384
And it's, it doesn't, it only has
to know the help file of the CLI

290
00:14:06,394 --> 00:14:07,754
tool and the command structure.

291
00:14:07,964 --> 00:14:10,564
It doesn't have to know all
these MCP tools, which I

292
00:14:10,564 --> 00:14:11,954
believe is better on tokens.

293
00:14:11,994 --> 00:14:14,844
If I remember correctly,
looking into some of that, like.

294
00:14:14,854 --> 00:14:17,774
Oh, I can tell you token
horror stories on the OpenClaw.

295
00:14:18,294 --> 00:14:21,594
I've burned my credit card
into many bits and pieces.

296
00:14:22,046 --> 00:14:22,206
Yeah,

297
00:14:22,236 --> 00:14:24,266
being like, an early adopter of OpenClaw.

298
00:14:24,936 --> 00:14:27,936
A friend of mine yesterday said
he tried the fast mode in Opus and

299
00:14:27,966 --> 00:14:31,646
like an hour later, he had like
a 25, bill or whatever like that.

300
00:14:31,646 --> 00:14:33,276
And he's like, okay, maybe not fast mode.

301
00:14:33,276 --> 00:14:33,876
It's very nice.

302
00:14:33,886 --> 00:14:38,946
But, I, you know, we're all challenged
as well with AIs are getting faster,

303
00:14:38,966 --> 00:14:40,546
but we still have the waiting game.

304
00:14:40,556 --> 00:14:45,726
And that creates like this flow
problem that I don't know how

305
00:14:45,726 --> 00:14:50,686
to describe it, but you end up
feeling like you need to multitask.

306
00:14:51,831 --> 00:14:55,681
Well, the thing, the thing is with the, I
mean, everyone's complaining about memory

307
00:14:55,681 --> 00:14:57,201
and all these different models, right?

308
00:14:57,521 --> 00:14:59,911
So everyone's saying, Hey,
it forgets what I'm doing.

309
00:14:59,911 --> 00:15:03,071
I constantly have to
remind my model to that.

310
00:15:03,091 --> 00:15:04,471
My name is Brian, whatever.

311
00:15:04,771 --> 00:15:08,681
But the thing is, we're building out
these models, these memory models,

312
00:15:08,731 --> 00:15:11,811
which means we're having more context
we're passing to the model each time.

313
00:15:12,591 --> 00:15:16,121
So the model is growing and we're
just bombarding these models with

314
00:15:16,131 --> 00:15:18,511
tons of tokens just to say I'm Brian.

315
00:15:19,011 --> 00:15:22,551
You know, and here's, that's why
the costs are just exploding.

316
00:15:22,981 --> 00:15:23,451
Yeah.

317
00:15:23,951 --> 00:15:27,371
I mean, the costs are exploding because
we want more memory at the moment.

318
00:15:27,921 --> 00:15:30,391
I've talked a lot about OpenCode
lately, so we're going to get

319
00:15:30,391 --> 00:15:31,321
into OpenClaw in a minute.

320
00:15:31,321 --> 00:15:34,861
But I think, I think we are, we're both,
I think of an agreement that Claude

321
00:15:34,881 --> 00:15:36,081
Code is probably something that's.

322
00:15:36,526 --> 00:15:41,116
In our radar, I've been using, I
mean, it was kind of, I think, I

323
00:15:41,116 --> 00:15:42,726
feel like the first successful TUI.

324
00:15:43,006 --> 00:15:47,276
I was an early adopter of VS Code's
Copilot back in the beta, I think it was

325
00:15:47,276 --> 00:15:54,236
like 2023, maybe, when the beta of Copilot
came out and I think we had a show here

326
00:15:54,426 --> 00:16:00,806
like the day after, Copilot came out and
we haven't exactly been the AI channel.

327
00:16:00,806 --> 00:16:04,276
I would, I definitely have not pivoted
to be like everything AI, like a lot

328
00:16:04,276 --> 00:16:08,716
of my friends are, much to my detriment
on YouTube, but the things that I have

329
00:16:08,716 --> 00:16:14,406
started to gravitate to are shying
away from things like OpenCode or

330
00:16:14,406 --> 00:16:18,666
Codex specifically simply because I
find myself wanting to switch models

331
00:16:18,666 --> 00:16:22,476
too often, and I don't want to be
locked into a harness that's locked

332
00:16:22,476 --> 00:16:24,456
into a particular vendor's models.

333
00:16:24,836 --> 00:16:29,436
So I started trying out OpenCode in
December, moving from Claude Code, and

334
00:16:29,436 --> 00:16:34,896
I at the time was actually trying The
copilot, CLI, the Codex, CLI, before Codex

335
00:16:34,896 --> 00:16:40,186
actually had a GUI and the Claude Code
CLI obviously, and I shifted to OpenCode

336
00:16:40,306 --> 00:16:42,046
and now it's the only thing I use.

337
00:16:42,096 --> 00:16:43,866
And I love that.

338
00:16:43,916 --> 00:16:46,946
I have a Copilot subscription, which
is technically like open router.

339
00:16:47,446 --> 00:16:49,096
Mm-hmm . 'cause it gives me
the, you know, the tall, all

340
00:16:49,096 --> 00:16:50,476
the hits, all the great models.

341
00:16:50,976 --> 00:16:52,596
I can do that through copilot.

342
00:16:53,096 --> 00:16:57,286
I can do that, I have a subscription
to OpenAI and to Claude.

343
00:16:57,786 --> 00:17:01,716
And so I can pull in all three of
those subscriptions into OpenCode

344
00:17:02,216 --> 00:17:06,266
and switch between the models at
will in the middle of conversations.

345
00:17:06,766 --> 00:17:09,816
And so a lot of times when I run
into like, if I run into my Claude

346
00:17:09,886 --> 00:17:13,106
Code, if I run into my Claude
limit for the day on Opus, I just

347
00:17:13,106 --> 00:17:14,336
shift to my other subscription,

348
00:17:14,416 --> 00:17:14,876
shift to a

349
00:17:14,876 --> 00:17:15,456
different model.

350
00:17:15,456 --> 00:17:15,696
Yep.

351
00:17:15,896 --> 00:17:16,186
Yeah.

352
00:17:16,186 --> 00:17:19,026
And I just, so I go from my
cloud subscription to my GitHub's

353
00:17:19,106 --> 00:17:21,866
Copilot subscription and just
keep going, keep rolling with it.

354
00:17:22,176 --> 00:17:25,716
I think there's technically token
limit differences because if I, if you

355
00:17:25,716 --> 00:17:30,146
get really into the nerdy details of
the APIs, like, Claude is, you know,

356
00:17:30,256 --> 00:17:36,336
Anthropic has moved to a newer, modern,
API away from the chat API before.

357
00:17:36,346 --> 00:17:38,786
And I think, yeah, and I
think that, I think GitHub is

358
00:17:38,786 --> 00:17:40,646
still on the older structure.

359
00:17:40,646 --> 00:17:45,476
So there, but OpenCode as an, is a
wonderful open source project because

360
00:17:45,486 --> 00:17:47,126
it's, it just handles all of that.

361
00:17:47,146 --> 00:17:50,576
And in fact, if we did a demo, I
would show you like, if you scroll,

362
00:17:50,576 --> 00:17:51,936
I was showing some friends yesterday.

363
00:17:52,406 --> 00:17:56,106
Because they're all Claude Code users,
and I've been like the sole OpenCode user

364
00:17:56,166 --> 00:17:57,416
and I'm ranting about it all the time.

365
00:17:57,656 --> 00:18:00,946
I'm like, did you know you can have
one conversation and be, and watch

366
00:18:00,946 --> 00:18:05,366
it from the TUI, from the GUI and
from remote web mobile on my phone.

367
00:18:05,716 --> 00:18:08,366
And I can see the conversation on
all three happening at the same time.

368
00:18:08,376 --> 00:18:09,856
And I don't have to use WhatsApp.

369
00:18:10,136 --> 00:18:13,856
I don't have to, you know, not to knock
on your door, but like, I don't, I can

370
00:18:13,866 --> 00:18:17,821
have the full fledged experience of
the two of the, the, of the UI that

371
00:18:17,821 --> 00:18:21,691
we're all used to, with the proper
diff formation and all that stuff, as

372
00:18:21,691 --> 00:18:26,671
opposed to chatting at it through an
instant message tool that is not meant

373
00:18:26,671 --> 00:18:29,941
for agentic screen, screen presentation.

374
00:18:30,441 --> 00:18:33,451
And I much prefer that I have
to use, with OpenCode, it's not

375
00:18:33,451 --> 00:18:34,571
a, it's not a cloud service.

376
00:18:34,916 --> 00:18:37,256
Like Claude or GPT or anything like that.

377
00:18:37,256 --> 00:18:40,406
So you have to use like tailscale
or something to get you back to your

378
00:18:40,406 --> 00:18:42,916
machine, but I run it as a server.

379
00:18:42,916 --> 00:18:45,276
In fact, I showed a diagram
of running it as a server.

380
00:18:45,776 --> 00:18:49,066
So you just, you know, run OpenCode
server or OpenCode web, and it

381
00:18:49,096 --> 00:18:50,756
launches as a background process.

382
00:18:50,766 --> 00:18:53,426
And then you can connect from any
of the three different ways to

383
00:18:53,426 --> 00:18:55,586
connect web, that client or TUI.

384
00:18:56,086 --> 00:18:56,626
And it works.

385
00:18:56,696 --> 00:18:59,347
I am, I'm going to have to start
like if they were an actual product

386
00:18:59,357 --> 00:19:02,877
company, I would like start looking
for a sponsorship because I talk about

387
00:19:02,877 --> 00:19:04,867
them so much as, as my favorite tool.

388
00:19:05,207 --> 00:19:10,577
But other than that, I'm also very much
into Copilot and VS, and the Copilot

389
00:19:10,577 --> 00:19:14,357
world because I'm finding that, you know,
people that, companies that are all in

390
00:19:14,357 --> 00:19:16,247
on GitHub tend to use Copilot first.

391
00:19:16,577 --> 00:19:21,427
And when I talk to what I would call
normie developers, not like bleeding edge,

392
00:19:21,457 --> 00:19:25,037
always on the, you know, the people that
haven't yet put OpenClaw in their closet.

393
00:19:25,537 --> 00:19:30,397
Exactly, they tend to be in their
traditional IDE world, whether that's VS

394
00:19:30,437 --> 00:19:36,027
Code or, you know, PHP Storm or, you know,
whatever IDE they're used to, and they're

395
00:19:36,027 --> 00:19:37,697
just using whatever came with that.

396
00:19:37,697 --> 00:19:41,337
So with VS Code, the default
is, is Copilot, even though you

397
00:19:41,337 --> 00:19:42,897
can put all the other ones in.

398
00:19:43,007 --> 00:19:44,397
OpenCode has a plug,
whatever model you want.

399
00:19:44,397 --> 00:19:44,637
Yep.

400
00:19:44,667 --> 00:19:44,877
Yeah.

401
00:19:44,877 --> 00:19:47,417
Claude has a plugin, I
should say for the audience.

402
00:19:47,417 --> 00:19:48,767
Like, we haven't talked about
this on the show, but it's

403
00:19:48,767 --> 00:19:50,237
even getting more complex now.

404
00:19:50,237 --> 00:19:53,857
and I had to draw, I've had to draw this
out a couple times on the stream, because

405
00:19:53,857 --> 00:20:02,377
now with your GitHub Copilot subscription,
you can now use Claude Code or the Claude

406
00:20:02,877 --> 00:20:11,816
app inside a GitHub or inside a VS Code
as your agent of choice inside the Copilot

407
00:20:11,837 --> 00:20:16,887
harness and which basically means you
don't need a Claude Code subscription

408
00:20:16,887 --> 00:20:20,240
to use, if you want to learn more

409
00:20:20,240 --> 00:20:21,539
about any of

410
00:20:21,539 --> 00:20:22,839
the official cloud

411
00:20:22,839 --> 00:20:28,902
tooling, which is great because I mean,
I think this abstraction from the actual,

412
00:20:28,902 --> 00:20:32,982
or marrying yourself to a specific
company is kind of a thing of the past.

413
00:20:33,252 --> 00:20:35,752
You're just going to go for the
best model eventually, right.

414
00:20:35,812 --> 00:20:36,422
Whatever.

415
00:20:36,922 --> 00:20:40,722
It might be Cloud does Code and OpenAI
does something else and whatever.

416
00:20:40,722 --> 00:20:44,772
And you just have it set up where,
Oh, I have a use case and they

417
00:20:44,772 --> 00:20:47,912
just, my swarm of agents go out to
the right model and get it done.

418
00:20:48,412 --> 00:20:51,232
it does feel weird to
commit to any one company.

419
00:20:51,232 --> 00:20:55,312
I mean, I feel like you're pretty safe if
you committed to Anthropic right now, but.

420
00:20:55,752 --> 00:20:56,412
I think so.

421
00:20:56,482 --> 00:20:56,742
Yeah.

422
00:20:56,992 --> 00:21:00,702
But I, I believe, what other, it doesn't
matter which company you go with.

423
00:21:00,942 --> 00:21:03,332
I really believe your local
setup is super important.

424
00:21:04,042 --> 00:21:08,322
I mean, I'm harping on this as like
your human operating system or your Bret

425
00:21:08,352 --> 00:21:12,502
operating system where you have to set up
like all your agents, you have to set up

426
00:21:12,512 --> 00:21:18,622
all your template files and memory files
locally and really use that as your basis.

427
00:21:18,872 --> 00:21:21,532
And it doesn't matter what model
you used and cause it always gonna,

428
00:21:21,592 --> 00:21:23,132
it should always read that locally.

429
00:21:24,772 --> 00:21:29,152
I use Gemini with OpenClaw and when I
had the same setup for all the models

430
00:21:29,512 --> 00:21:31,362
and Gemini was the most apologetic.

431
00:21:31,442 --> 00:21:33,732
Every time I do something
like, Oh, I'm so sorry.

432
00:21:34,002 --> 00:21:35,672
It didn't work properly.

433
00:21:35,682 --> 00:21:37,022
And I would be like,
it's just so frustrating.

434
00:21:37,072 --> 00:21:38,862
Like stop apologizing, just fix it.

435
00:21:39,362 --> 00:21:39,802
Yeah.

436
00:21:39,832 --> 00:21:41,082
That's the thing right now too.

437
00:21:41,082 --> 00:21:43,762
Like not every developer
gets to choose their models.

438
00:21:43,772 --> 00:21:46,132
This is something Laura Tacho
was on the show last year and was

439
00:21:46,132 --> 00:21:49,417
talking about like, one of the
biggest barriers for developers.

440
00:21:49,917 --> 00:21:53,487
In enterprise is the fact that the
enterprise doesn't necessarily hand

441
00:21:53,487 --> 00:21:56,887
out licenses to everyone, and if it
does, it might be very prescriptive to

442
00:21:56,887 --> 00:21:58,567
which models or harnesses they can use.

443
00:21:59,042 --> 00:22:02,832
So people are kind of just stuck
using whatever their company decided

444
00:22:02,832 --> 00:22:07,322
on a year ago, which was like, that's
like the equivalent of making a

445
00:22:07,322 --> 00:22:08,872
decision and keeping it for a decade.

446
00:22:08,882 --> 00:22:12,322
Like the challenge right now is if you
make a commitment as an organization,

447
00:22:12,822 --> 00:22:16,922
that's a really, like, you could
essentially be at this point, the

448
00:22:16,922 --> 00:22:21,202
equivalent of years behind an AI
because you've aligned yourself.

449
00:22:21,702 --> 00:22:24,532
And that's something that's not like
IT purchasing isn't used to that,

450
00:22:24,532 --> 00:22:27,532
like lawyers and contracts and all
these things aren't used to that.

451
00:22:28,342 --> 00:22:32,382
So I sympathize with people like James,
because you're having to use Gemini,

452
00:22:32,882 --> 00:22:37,362
everyone I know, like pretty much all
of my bleeding edge friends that are

453
00:22:37,362 --> 00:22:39,922
living in AI all day long as developers.

454
00:22:40,252 --> 00:22:43,542
And these are people that get to
choose whatever tool they want to use,

455
00:22:43,542 --> 00:22:47,692
because they're all small businesses or
subcontractors, or, you know, they, there

456
00:22:47,722 --> 00:22:49,752
are, there are product people that are
making their own products or whatever.

457
00:22:50,252 --> 00:22:55,367
I'd say, yeah, 99
percent of them are on 6.

458
00:22:55,647 --> 00:23:02,497
The other 1 percent are on GPT
5.4 because 5.4 specifically,

459
00:23:02,497 --> 00:23:07,017
yeah, specifically 5.4 is showing
really good signs of back end code.

460
00:23:07,257 --> 00:23:09,077
It's evidently a horrible designer.

461
00:23:09,557 --> 00:23:12,147
So I'm like, if you had to
ask me this week, and it will

462
00:23:12,147 --> 00:23:13,347
probably change next month.

463
00:23:13,347 --> 00:23:18,457
Opus 4.6 is go to for the least number
of hallucinations and the longest run

464
00:23:18,457 --> 00:23:24,417
cycles before I have to like, Ralph loop
it through or, or if you know about Ralph

465
00:23:24,417 --> 00:23:29,487
loops, but like before clear context,
like, so like Opus is the jam, like

466
00:23:29,797 --> 00:23:34,247
Opus, Opus, Opus, maybe Opus for planning
and Sonnet for actually doing the work.

467
00:23:34,247 --> 00:23:38,127
If you want to save tokens, GPT 5.4,
if it's doing backend stuff and not

468
00:23:38,127 --> 00:23:39,687
frontend, nothing design related.

469
00:23:40,097 --> 00:23:43,867
And then I don't know where
Gemini falls in there other

470
00:23:43,867 --> 00:23:45,147
than like Nano Banana for me.

471
00:23:45,147 --> 00:23:48,257
Like I, I make images and
I don't use Gemini for it.

472
00:23:48,757 --> 00:23:53,207
So the problem is, is like developers,
like this is like, this is the part that

473
00:23:53,207 --> 00:23:56,767
I hate, like a year ago, I didn't want
to talk about any of this because well,

474
00:23:56,797 --> 00:23:59,307
all the models were kind of, I think
I feel like a year ago, all the models

475
00:23:59,307 --> 00:24:03,627
were kind of, eh, we were, I think we
were doing like Sonnet 3.5 at the time.

476
00:24:03,627 --> 00:24:03,807
Right.

477
00:24:03,847 --> 00:24:08,137
3.7. And so the problem is like people
are stuck on a particular, what I would

478
00:24:08,137 --> 00:24:13,187
call, Legacy model, just because it's
only like six or eight or 10 months old.

479
00:24:13,877 --> 00:24:13,997
Or

480
00:24:13,997 --> 00:24:15,387
not even, right.

481
00:24:15,697 --> 00:24:20,717
And that model is, I don't know,
three times, not like three

482
00:24:20,717 --> 00:24:22,707
times worse than Opus maybe.

483
00:24:22,957 --> 00:24:26,727
So that's the real problem right now is I
feel like we've got first class citizen,

484
00:24:26,737 --> 00:24:31,687
like we've got people that are loving
life on Opus and then we've got people

485
00:24:31,687 --> 00:24:36,577
struggling on older models or older
versions or approved models or whatever.

486
00:24:37,077 --> 00:24:38,807
And they're like, everything's garbage.

487
00:24:38,807 --> 00:24:40,647
And I'm like, no, actually it's not.

488
00:24:40,697 --> 00:24:44,667
I mean, there's plenty of garbage
to be found, but it is so much

489
00:24:44,677 --> 00:24:46,587
better if you just try this.

490
00:24:47,087 --> 00:24:48,417
And not everybody can do it.

491
00:24:48,487 --> 00:24:49,437
Not everybody gets to have that.

492
00:24:49,437 --> 00:24:49,737
I think

493
00:24:49,847 --> 00:24:50,037
so.

494
00:24:50,392 --> 00:24:52,212
I think all the models are good.

495
00:24:52,262 --> 00:24:55,512
They just require, for example,
Gemini, I used it for a long time.

496
00:24:55,972 --> 00:24:58,802
And I just think you have to set
up the prompting much differently

497
00:24:58,802 --> 00:24:59,992
compared to the other models.

498
00:25:00,302 --> 00:25:02,582
Once you get it kind of set up, it works.

499
00:25:02,802 --> 00:25:05,532
I, I still believe, like you
said, Claude is the best designer.

500
00:25:06,032 --> 00:25:08,292
in Claude Desktop, they
had this design skill.

501
00:25:08,792 --> 00:25:10,532
If you're using Claude, just enable that.

502
00:25:10,582 --> 00:25:13,752
It does amazing websites or graphics.

503
00:25:13,802 --> 00:25:14,732
It really nice.

504
00:25:14,772 --> 00:25:15,632
And it's right out of the box.

505
00:25:15,632 --> 00:25:16,382
You don't have to do anything.

506
00:25:16,382 --> 00:25:19,242
Just enable the graphics
skill or the design skill.

507
00:25:19,742 --> 00:25:23,352
Right, that's maybe something to talk
about too, real quick is like the,

508
00:25:23,452 --> 00:25:28,367
all of these things require effort
in terms of getting your agents.md

509
00:25:28,907 --> 00:25:31,507
file for the project really honed in.

510
00:25:31,537 --> 00:25:34,297
Although there's just a report that
came out a couple of weeks ago,

511
00:25:34,297 --> 00:25:39,607
that's suggesting that agent files
actually reduce the quality of the

512
00:25:39,607 --> 00:25:41,607
finished product in every test.

513
00:25:42,077 --> 00:25:44,467
I don't know if you saw that,
but that was like, I didn't even

514
00:25:44,467 --> 00:25:45,207
know what to think about that.

515
00:25:45,217 --> 00:25:50,347
Like, but skills to me have been a game
changer in the last couple of months,

516
00:25:50,377 --> 00:25:54,547
and if you've not, someone who's adopted,
adapted to skills, I'm pretty sure all the

517
00:25:54,547 --> 00:25:57,097
harnesses now have got a way to use them.

518
00:25:57,097 --> 00:26:00,887
The paths might be slightly different
depending on the harness, but creating

519
00:26:00,887 --> 00:26:05,057
the skill markdown files or finding
good ones on the web that I have read

520
00:26:05,257 --> 00:26:09,807
and I am assured do not have any sort
of prompt injections, that's key, but

521
00:26:09,807 --> 00:26:14,030
I feel like that has changed the game
for me in allowing me to give the

522
00:26:14,030 --> 00:26:16,507
harness work without a lot of rigor.

523
00:26:17,007 --> 00:26:18,877
And it not losing its mind.

524
00:26:18,937 --> 00:26:23,147
And I think that's the key distinction
between like now and six months ago.

525
00:26:23,407 --> 00:26:29,127
Is six months ago, if I didn't give it a
very long prompt, very clear, and we were

526
00:26:29,127 --> 00:26:33,117
all like pasting and storing prompts, and
then we were, and then we had commands

527
00:26:33,117 --> 00:26:35,247
and we were trying to store them in
commands because we didn't want to have

528
00:26:35,247 --> 00:26:36,627
to type the whole prompt or paste it.

529
00:26:37,067 --> 00:26:39,247
And now I'm not doing any of that.

530
00:26:39,277 --> 00:26:42,057
I'm only doing skills and I don't
know about you, but I'm finding

531
00:26:42,057 --> 00:26:43,707
that that's all I really need.

532
00:26:43,967 --> 00:26:46,777
I just need to write the skill and
I keep having the agent update.

533
00:26:46,817 --> 00:26:50,367
Whenever the, it's almost reminds me
of like the rule in ops is when you

534
00:26:50,377 --> 00:26:54,447
have an, When you have a production
failure, the rule in Ops is you create

535
00:26:54,447 --> 00:27:00,952
a test, so that somewhere in your test
pipelines, that, that failure was tested

536
00:27:01,012 --> 00:27:02,202
to make sure it won't happen again.

537
00:27:02,232 --> 00:27:04,512
Like the goal is never
the same failure twice.

538
00:27:04,892 --> 00:27:08,612
I feel like with skills and AIs now,
if I, like I just happened yesterday,

539
00:27:08,972 --> 00:27:11,432
I was having a walk, it was actually
running a SOP for me, a standard

540
00:27:11,432 --> 00:27:14,722
operating procedure of just something
in my courses that I would normally

541
00:27:14,722 --> 00:27:16,652
have like a virtual assistant do for me.

542
00:27:16,982 --> 00:27:19,542
And it's going through processing
this text and managing some, creating

543
00:27:19,542 --> 00:27:22,822
some HTML and things for me that I
need for each lecture in a video.

544
00:27:23,322 --> 00:27:27,342
And it made a couple of mistakes, put
some things out of order and I realized,

545
00:27:27,382 --> 00:27:28,662
Oh, the skill needs to be updated.

546
00:27:28,662 --> 00:27:31,832
So I just ask it to update the skill
to please fix this and then also update

547
00:27:31,832 --> 00:27:33,022
the skill so it doesn't happen again.

548
00:27:33,312 --> 00:27:36,272
And I feel like that's my new operator
and failure mode is if I see the AI

549
00:27:36,322 --> 00:27:40,292
misbehave, it's probably a lack of
it not having the proper instruction.

550
00:27:40,332 --> 00:27:42,262
I just need to update the
skill and have it retry.

551
00:27:42,262 --> 00:27:43,322
And then usually corrects itself.

552
00:27:43,682 --> 00:27:44,892
Is that something that you're seeing?

553
00:27:44,902 --> 00:27:45,852
Are you, is that

554
00:27:47,247 --> 00:27:50,337
And it's back to the context question
again, it's really, you know, sometimes

555
00:27:50,337 --> 00:27:52,167
it forgets how to use the skill.

556
00:27:52,577 --> 00:27:56,457
So maybe you have to declare
the skill better, so it

557
00:27:56,467 --> 00:27:57,817
understands the skill better.

558
00:27:58,317 --> 00:28:01,197
But I mean, the skill works, but
sometimes I have to go again and say,

559
00:28:01,197 --> 00:28:04,807
Hey, don't you remember use the skill
lap time like this, this and it worked.

560
00:28:04,817 --> 00:28:08,057
And then I realized maybe I have
to add more context to it, so it

561
00:28:08,067 --> 00:28:13,657
realizes if it starts a new if
chat with this skill, it should be

562
00:28:13,657 --> 00:28:15,597
able to use it right off the bat.

563
00:28:16,097 --> 00:28:18,797
And I mean, I built all sorts of skills.

564
00:28:18,867 --> 00:28:23,077
It's really, I find that's, really the
game changer at the moment is skills.

565
00:28:23,197 --> 00:28:26,047
Like you said, it's where I'm
investing all my time at the moment.

566
00:28:26,547 --> 00:28:28,167
How do you manage your skills?

567
00:28:28,247 --> 00:28:32,807
Like, do you, I've been looking
into the NPX skills tool.

568
00:28:32,807 --> 00:28:34,167
I think it's, I think for cell made it.

569
00:28:34,607 --> 00:28:35,677
I'm not an expert in it yet.

570
00:28:35,677 --> 00:28:38,187
I've really only had like a week's
use of it, but it's helped me.

571
00:28:38,487 --> 00:28:38,877
Okay.

572
00:28:39,287 --> 00:28:43,037
It's, I mean, I was making them all
manually before then, and then or like

573
00:28:43,037 --> 00:28:46,397
downloading, copy and pasting from GitHub
repos, you know, finding ones I liked,

574
00:28:46,697 --> 00:28:51,097
and I'd store them in my global path,
which I think is like in my user directory

575
00:28:51,307 --> 00:28:53,957
.claude/ slash skills and then skill name.

576
00:28:54,337 --> 00:28:54,797
and.

577
00:28:55,297 --> 00:28:57,427
I realized suddenly that I was
spending a lot of time copying

578
00:28:57,427 --> 00:28:58,907
and pasting in between projects.

579
00:28:59,397 --> 00:29:03,127
And I haven't really figured out,
like, I don't know if I can actually

580
00:29:03,127 --> 00:29:06,947
use the MPX skills tool to like
store my own and like have them

581
00:29:06,947 --> 00:29:08,257
centrally so that I can access them.

582
00:29:08,257 --> 00:29:09,337
I guess I could probably do that.

583
00:29:09,587 --> 00:29:11,857
Do you have, are you, do you
have any hot tips for anyone?

584
00:29:11,967 --> 00:29:12,967
I'm kind of putting you on the spot.

585
00:29:13,117 --> 00:29:13,537
So,

586
00:29:14,037 --> 00:29:17,347
And, I mean, what I do, obviously
I store each skill as this

587
00:29:17,387 --> 00:29:18,547
individual repo in GitHub.

588
00:29:18,707 --> 00:29:22,717
So it all goes out to GitHub
and then I version control it.

589
00:29:22,757 --> 00:29:25,617
And I say, anytime you touch that,
you better sync it to GitHub.

590
00:29:25,837 --> 00:29:27,917
So then I always have like a backup copy.

591
00:29:28,387 --> 00:29:31,007
And then it's running tests
on this and everything else.

592
00:29:31,017 --> 00:29:36,287
So that's, that's one unlock I did
because obviously, early on, my OpenClaw

593
00:29:36,797 --> 00:29:38,447
deleted itself and I lost everything.

594
00:29:38,947 --> 00:29:42,287
And so since then I've been
backing everything up to get up.

595
00:29:42,287 --> 00:29:46,157
So, but that's like kind of a,
like a, kind of a workaround to

596
00:29:46,167 --> 00:29:51,277
have skills ready, and then I'm
also defining a skill per agent.

597
00:29:51,287 --> 00:29:52,537
So I have like a DevOps agent.

598
00:29:52,772 --> 00:29:56,202
And the DevOps agent's responsibility
is just only DevOps, and it has

599
00:29:56,202 --> 00:29:57,642
only DevOps skills assigned to it.

600
00:29:58,092 --> 00:30:00,232
So then it has context
with just these skills.

601
00:30:00,242 --> 00:30:02,352
It doesn't need context
for every skill I have.

602
00:30:02,852 --> 00:30:07,822
And I think since I changed it to
specific skills per agent, it's gotten

603
00:30:07,882 --> 00:30:09,692
more clever on how to use the skills.

604
00:30:10,192 --> 00:30:13,772
Now, when you create an agent, in that
sense, are you talking specifically

605
00:30:13,772 --> 00:30:16,942
of something like Claude Code or like
what, you say you create a DevOps

606
00:30:16,972 --> 00:30:18,032
agent, where are you creating that?

607
00:30:18,532 --> 00:30:23,912
So, I mean, in the context of OpenClaw
or I would say open Claude Code as

608
00:30:23,912 --> 00:30:27,832
well, you can create basically folders
and each folder is its own project.

609
00:30:27,882 --> 00:30:32,052
And within the project, you can have
skills and all these things with insight.

610
00:30:32,552 --> 00:30:36,922
And you define each folder as its
own agent, like its own personality,

611
00:30:36,922 --> 00:30:41,692
what it's capable of its own,
claude.Md file, essentially.

612
00:30:42,067 --> 00:30:42,327
Okay.

613
00:30:42,337 --> 00:30:43,577
Or agent.md file.

614
00:30:43,967 --> 00:30:47,087
And that's how you kind of version
control it and have the separation.

615
00:30:47,587 --> 00:30:49,697
And then you can kick it off separately.

616
00:30:50,197 --> 00:30:52,637
So, we're going to jump into
OpenClaw cause there's all the

617
00:30:52,637 --> 00:30:54,577
insanity of what people are doing.

618
00:30:55,077 --> 00:30:59,337
But behind that, and I've never
actually even installed it yet.

619
00:30:59,357 --> 00:31:02,487
I'm just, it's been so busy
and it's not even that old.

620
00:31:02,497 --> 00:31:05,347
Like I, it's, I feel like we've lived
10 years in the last two months.

621
00:31:05,347 --> 00:31:07,857
You're a person that operates in a
high safety environment, high secure

622
00:31:07,857 --> 00:31:11,707
environment, obviously you're not
using this for work, I assume, but,

623
00:31:11,987 --> 00:31:13,297
Strictly testing at the moment.

624
00:31:13,597 --> 00:31:18,337
Right, but OpenClaw isn't necessarily,
like, can you talk to a little bit about

625
00:31:18,837 --> 00:31:24,267
OpenClaw isn't necessarily on day one, the
minute you install it, some rogue, crazy

626
00:31:24,267 --> 00:31:25,807
thing that's going to ruin your life.

627
00:31:25,867 --> 00:31:29,947
Like it, no, like the things that we're
hearing in the headlines are people

628
00:31:29,947 --> 00:31:33,577
deliberately doing things with it that
they probably shouldn't have done.

629
00:31:33,797 --> 00:31:34,807
And that's not, it's.

630
00:31:35,307 --> 00:31:36,737
That's not its modus operandi.

631
00:31:36,757 --> 00:31:40,447
Like it's not, that's not what
it's trying to be necessarily.

632
00:31:40,847 --> 00:31:44,807
I always look at it as like an
orchestrator of, if it's orchestrating,

633
00:31:45,137 --> 00:31:48,307
it comes in and it decides, you decide
what you want it to orchestrate.

634
00:31:48,307 --> 00:31:50,077
You decide how much you want
to give it of your life.

635
00:31:50,097 --> 00:31:53,877
You decide what things it has access to
and you put the guardrails in and all.

636
00:31:53,927 --> 00:31:54,657
Is that all true?

637
00:31:54,687 --> 00:31:56,462
I'm actually just assuming
that that's all true.

638
00:31:56,962 --> 00:32:00,452
You have to back up some, and this is
where your DevOps specialty comes in,

639
00:32:00,462 --> 00:32:04,662
Bret, is like, most people probably
don't have the infrastructure knowledge

640
00:32:04,702 --> 00:32:06,152
on how to set up a server generally.

641
00:32:06,417 --> 00:32:06,917
Right?

642
00:32:07,387 --> 00:32:11,007
So they're setting up their home
PC or whatever server they want,

643
00:32:11,027 --> 00:32:12,487
and they're putting OpenClaw on it.

644
00:32:12,957 --> 00:32:17,167
And they have maybe not the
comprehension of how to secure the

645
00:32:17,167 --> 00:32:19,227
server, regardless of OpenClaw.

646
00:32:19,277 --> 00:32:22,417
I'm just saying, hey, putting
a server on the internet with a

647
00:32:22,417 --> 00:32:26,667
website, maybe is not a good idea
if you have everything open, right?

648
00:32:27,167 --> 00:32:31,007
And that's, I think what really
burned a lot of people with OpenClaw

649
00:32:31,007 --> 00:32:33,887
cause they're, you know, putting
it out there, they didn't lock

650
00:32:33,887 --> 00:32:35,707
it down, all the ports were open.

651
00:32:35,767 --> 00:32:39,357
And then the first few versions
of OpenClaw, the API keys were all

652
00:32:39,357 --> 00:32:41,437
just plain text stored locally.

653
00:32:41,527 --> 00:32:43,827
You know, it was like version 0.

654
00:32:43,827 --> 00:32:47,087
1 and I mean, it's still
early days for this product.

655
00:32:47,087 --> 00:32:50,557
So I mean, if you're putting
your server out there password

656
00:32:50,567 --> 00:32:52,457
123 it's gonna get hacked.

657
00:32:52,507 --> 00:32:53,417
Somebody's gonna get in it.

658
00:32:53,567 --> 00:32:54,687
Somebody's gonna take advantage of it.

659
00:32:55,187 --> 00:32:58,087
But is the server going rogue by itself?

660
00:32:58,267 --> 00:32:58,627
No.

661
00:32:59,127 --> 00:33:02,507
I mean, unless you tell
it to, it won't do that.

662
00:33:02,747 --> 00:33:04,767
And that's, it's that's the thing.

663
00:33:04,767 --> 00:33:06,477
I mean, it's whatever
you're telling it to do.

664
00:33:06,507 --> 00:33:10,357
And I've set up, I don't
know, maybe 10 OpenClaws now.

665
00:33:10,597 --> 00:33:13,277
So I've set them up multiple times
trying to understand the process and

666
00:33:13,277 --> 00:33:16,097
like, kind of, really by the content.

667
00:33:17,007 --> 00:33:17,647
Oh, right.

668
00:33:17,817 --> 00:33:22,547
And, no, it's really, you know, you
just have to have the basics down.

669
00:33:22,547 --> 00:33:26,057
Locking down the server o, installing
OpenClaw and figuring out like, Hey,

670
00:33:26,057 --> 00:33:31,297
if I give OpenClaw an API key to Claude
or OpenAI or whatever, look in the

671
00:33:31,297 --> 00:33:34,867
server to see where it's stored and
just like figure out is this secure?

672
00:33:35,227 --> 00:33:37,747
And then I realized quite quickly,
I'm like, that's not secure.

673
00:33:37,807 --> 00:33:42,377
I'd rather store all my keys in 1Password
and then have a connection from the

674
00:33:42,497 --> 00:33:44,207
OpenClaw to 1Password to grab the keys.

675
00:33:44,597 --> 00:33:45,857
And that's how I'm doing it like this.

676
00:33:45,857 --> 00:33:49,817
So it's a lot of security
basics that are burning people.

677
00:33:50,317 --> 00:33:55,627
Now, it is possible that, yeah,
you just update it incorrectly and

678
00:33:55,627 --> 00:33:57,037
you open more ports by accident.

679
00:33:57,137 --> 00:33:59,047
But you just have to
constantly monitor this stuff.

680
00:33:59,547 --> 00:34:02,337
And I built like a security
skill for OpenClaw.

681
00:34:02,837 --> 00:34:04,747
Obviously it doesn't
pass any of the tests.

682
00:34:04,777 --> 00:34:09,227
I'm like, I built it just for myself
and I put it in the OpenClaw Hub.

683
00:34:09,727 --> 00:34:13,067
And essentially it just checks, do
you have your firewall turned on?

684
00:34:13,257 --> 00:34:14,657
Do you have a VPN?

685
00:34:14,797 --> 00:34:16,607
Are all the ports, you know, locked?

686
00:34:16,667 --> 00:34:18,007
It's basic IT stuff.

687
00:34:18,257 --> 00:34:18,607
Okay.

688
00:34:18,677 --> 00:34:22,767
And that's what's really hurting a
lot of people and they don't realize,

689
00:34:22,817 --> 00:34:25,657
and I just saw on Hacker News that
they're charging, somebody's charging

690
00:34:25,667 --> 00:34:29,867
$5,000 to install OpenClaw servers for
people in San Francisco at the moment.

691
00:34:30,367 --> 00:34:31,217
That's awesome.

692
00:34:31,567 --> 00:34:32,277
Good for them.

693
00:34:32,277 --> 00:34:32,767
Good for them.

694
00:34:33,107 --> 00:34:35,297
It's one curl command and
you have it installed.

695
00:34:35,307 --> 00:34:35,607
Right.

696
00:34:35,617 --> 00:34:35,887
Come on.

697
00:34:36,227 --> 00:34:38,107
Right, but you need a VPC somewhere.

698
00:34:38,107 --> 00:34:39,387
You need, you know,
yeah, you need a droplet.

699
00:34:39,387 --> 00:34:44,267
I mean, I think when first, when it sort
of reached its first sort of peak, not

700
00:34:44,267 --> 00:34:49,132
really peak hype, but like when it first
got hyped up, it was the first time

701
00:34:49,132 --> 00:34:52,622
I'd ever seen an open source project
where basically all the cloud providers

702
00:34:52,952 --> 00:34:56,332
within a week of each other all put out
notifications saying, Hey, we have a

703
00:34:56,332 --> 00:35:00,532
way for you to run this one app on our
platform, like a one click install for

704
00:35:00,532 --> 00:35:02,632
this thing, and I had never seen that.

705
00:35:02,662 --> 00:35:08,612
I've never seen like major top tier
cloud companies going, Oh, suddenly

706
00:35:08,712 --> 00:35:13,112
we care so much about this brand new
month old piece of open source that

707
00:35:13,112 --> 00:35:17,812
we're going to make it a dedicated
product for you to run on our platform.

708
00:35:17,842 --> 00:35:19,212
And that's just never really happened.

709
00:35:19,212 --> 00:35:20,122
I've never seen that.

710
00:35:20,392 --> 00:35:23,202
It's, you know, normally it takes
five, 10 years for a mature product

711
00:35:23,212 --> 00:35:27,752
to be something that, you know, Google
Cloud or Azure care about, right?

712
00:35:27,762 --> 00:35:29,462
Like they just, they're
not going to hype it up.

713
00:35:29,752 --> 00:35:33,372
But it's reached such hype cycle,
and I think there's so many players

714
00:35:33,372 --> 00:35:37,232
now all competing for the, you
know, agent, are, you know, the

715
00:35:37,232 --> 00:35:38,672
place where you run your agents.

716
00:35:38,922 --> 00:35:41,152
We've got a ton of little startups
that have been around for a couple of

717
00:35:41,152 --> 00:35:42,892
years, all trying to play in that space.

718
00:35:43,212 --> 00:35:46,982
Daytona, who's been on this show, has
pivoted to be in that space as sort

719
00:35:46,982 --> 00:35:48,542
of the place you run your agents.

720
00:35:48,542 --> 00:35:52,792
And you really just, it's really just
abstracting what you and I would do, which

721
00:35:52,792 --> 00:35:57,167
was create a dedicated server and lock
it down, and you know, make sure that you

722
00:35:57,167 --> 00:36:00,297
got it on patch rotation, make sure that
the ports are exposed and that if you're

723
00:36:00,297 --> 00:36:03,657
going to put SSH out there, put it in
a high random port, you know, make sure

724
00:36:03,657 --> 00:36:07,857
it's, installed tailscale, these types of
things, doing all the things that we do.

725
00:36:08,357 --> 00:36:10,877
And yeah, OpenClaw out of the box
should probably have like a built

726
00:36:10,877 --> 00:36:14,012
in lockdown skill, where it's
just going to automatically do

727
00:36:14,012 --> 00:36:18,032
that as a part of its install to
battle, battle, prepare for battle,

728
00:36:18,032 --> 00:36:19,352
essentially on the internet, you know.

729
00:36:19,462 --> 00:36:21,062
That's a great point
you brought up, right?

730
00:36:21,092 --> 00:36:23,422
I mean, the picture behind
you, like everything's on fire.

731
00:36:23,462 --> 00:36:25,952
That's actually my OpenClaw
server a couple of times already.

732
00:36:26,402 --> 00:36:31,022
I mean, it's a, so, I mean, I set
everything up and, when you set it up as

733
00:36:31,022 --> 00:36:33,132
root, root, that's obviously bad advice.

734
00:36:33,132 --> 00:36:34,142
You should never do that.

735
00:36:34,542 --> 00:36:35,822
So it's running as root.

736
00:36:35,892 --> 00:36:38,822
And I got really frustrated in
Telegram and I'm writing something

737
00:36:38,832 --> 00:36:41,882
and I said, just delete it,
delete, you know, whatever it is.

738
00:36:41,932 --> 00:36:46,522
Well, OpenClaw took it literally and
deleted the entire project and down to

739
00:36:46,522 --> 00:36:48,612
the root and just deleted the server.

740
00:36:48,642 --> 00:36:49,862
No longer responsive.

741
00:36:50,362 --> 00:36:51,152
I was like, wow.

742
00:36:51,242 --> 00:36:52,222
Okay, that worked.

743
00:36:52,722 --> 00:36:53,812
So it did an RM.

744
00:36:53,812 --> 00:36:55,232
So lesson, lesson learned.

745
00:36:55,722 --> 00:36:57,162
Run it, don't run it as root.

746
00:36:58,992 --> 00:37:05,202
Where do you see, like for you, what
are some anecdotal, like things that you

747
00:37:05,202 --> 00:37:07,162
think are reasonably safe to try with it?

748
00:37:07,192 --> 00:37:10,812
If someone's new and they're a little
concerned, cause we had a, a great, not

749
00:37:10,812 --> 00:37:14,902
really a question, I don't understand the
interest in OpenClaw as hallucinations

750
00:37:14,902 --> 00:37:18,492
are mathematically unsolvable and prompt
injection attacks haven't been solved.

751
00:37:18,772 --> 00:37:20,872
It's just a gigantic attack surface.

752
00:37:21,282 --> 00:37:28,452
And while those are all technically true
things, it's still just software, right?

753
00:37:28,512 --> 00:37:31,072
Like it's still something
that's on my machine that I can

754
00:37:31,142 --> 00:37:32,732
lock down, that I can control.

755
00:37:32,932 --> 00:37:34,972
It's just software
that's running in a loop.

756
00:37:35,362 --> 00:37:36,462
Access to an LLM.

757
00:37:36,482 --> 00:37:41,502
So it's not, these
problems aren't unsolvable.

758
00:37:41,982 --> 00:37:45,642
And you can lock down the prompts,
for example, OpenClaw has a

759
00:37:45,642 --> 00:37:49,812
community in Discord and actually
OpenClaw is running in Discord.

760
00:37:49,822 --> 00:37:53,222
So you can actually, everyone's trying
to prompt inject it the whole time.

761
00:37:53,222 --> 00:37:56,622
And you know, the founder, Peter
is trying to encourage people to

762
00:37:56,632 --> 00:37:58,072
prompt, inject it and try to break it.

763
00:37:58,562 --> 00:37:58,812
Yeah.

764
00:37:58,812 --> 00:38:01,797
But I mean, by the way, that
Discord server is insane.

765
00:38:01,937 --> 00:38:04,257
That Discord server is It's
crazy, all this stuff going on.

766
00:38:04,257 --> 00:38:06,887
I wouldn't be surprised if it's now the
biggest Discord server on the planet.

767
00:38:06,927 --> 00:38:07,727
Like it's insane.

768
00:38:08,227 --> 00:38:12,997
But I mean, what you do is you lock
down your prompt to just your device.

769
00:38:13,327 --> 00:38:15,727
So you can actually pair
your prompt to your device.

770
00:38:15,737 --> 00:38:19,847
So you say only my device, regardless
what you get, is the only one you

771
00:38:19,847 --> 00:38:21,447
listen to, like actual commands.

772
00:38:21,947 --> 00:38:26,227
You can answer questions with everybody
else, but you never process a command.

773
00:38:26,237 --> 00:38:28,047
So it's like only locked
down to my device.

774
00:38:28,547 --> 00:38:28,907
Yeah.

775
00:38:29,407 --> 00:38:32,577
In response to the whole, as
hallucinations are mathematically

776
00:38:32,577 --> 00:38:36,357
unsolvable, the way I'm looking at it
now, especially that we have the newest

777
00:38:36,367 --> 00:38:40,926
models, Opus, I mentioned these earlier,
Opus 4.6, Sonnet 4.6, pretty good.

778
00:38:40,956 --> 00:38:48,926
And then GPT 5.4, for me, my perspective
has changed because once the AI

779
00:38:48,936 --> 00:38:54,156
gets, like we're beyond 80%, unlike
the SWE bench boards and like a lot

780
00:38:54,156 --> 00:38:58,566
of these testing infrastructures,
humans are not infallible like humans.

781
00:38:58,566 --> 00:39:01,796
Before we had the AI doing the
work, humans were making mistakes

782
00:39:01,796 --> 00:39:04,736
too, and we would recover those
mistakes and, and still to this

783
00:39:04,736 --> 00:39:06,146
day still still makes mistakes,

784
00:39:06,596 --> 00:39:10,736
So I don't need the AI to, I've sort
of changed my thought process around

785
00:39:10,736 --> 00:39:16,276
I don't need the AI to be a hundred
percent accurate at everything I ask it

786
00:39:16,276 --> 00:39:19,696
to do, and I don't think it will ever
be a hundred percent accurate because

787
00:39:20,196 --> 00:39:24,926
we, I'm just, I've started to look
at it more as like a junior engineer

788
00:39:25,226 --> 00:39:30,026
where when, if I hire someone and on
day one, I asked them to do a task and

789
00:39:30,026 --> 00:39:34,556
the context that I'm giving them is a
paragraph of information on their first

790
00:39:34,556 --> 00:39:38,616
day, they're more likely to make mistakes
because they don't know the entire

791
00:39:38,826 --> 00:39:40,906
worldview of everything at the company.

792
00:39:41,206 --> 00:39:44,276
So they're going to make decisions
and assumptions that aren't correct.

793
00:39:44,536 --> 00:39:46,596
And I would call those errors, right?

794
00:39:46,606 --> 00:39:48,106
That would be a mistake by a human.

795
00:39:48,606 --> 00:39:53,616
AI is exhibiting the same behaviors to
me now, like where it's not necessarily

796
00:39:53,616 --> 00:39:56,496
going to hallucinate on every request.

797
00:39:56,686 --> 00:40:00,716
In fact, I don't actually know
the last time I would qualify and

798
00:40:00,816 --> 00:40:02,386
that it technically hallucinated.

799
00:40:02,746 --> 00:40:04,716
I would say that it made mistakes.

800
00:40:04,816 --> 00:40:08,556
and, or it made decisions that I
don't agree with, but I, it's not

801
00:40:08,556 --> 00:40:12,426
like, I don't remember the last time
it incorrectly gave me HTML that

802
00:40:12,426 --> 00:40:14,056
wasn't actually a part of the spec.

803
00:40:14,406 --> 00:40:16,056
Like, I don't remember
the last time it did that.

804
00:40:16,406 --> 00:40:18,766
So that's, but you have,

805
00:40:18,856 --> 00:40:20,546
but you have human in the loop, right?

806
00:40:20,546 --> 00:40:22,846
Human in the loop is part of the solution.

807
00:40:22,906 --> 00:40:23,746
You have to check it.

808
00:40:23,746 --> 00:40:24,756
You have to verify things.

809
00:40:25,106 --> 00:40:28,076
I would say that a year ago I was
worried about, and, and I was the guy

810
00:40:28,076 --> 00:40:30,536
shot up the rooftop hallucinations.

811
00:40:30,806 --> 00:40:34,496
Now I don't remember the last time
I cared because I have gone months

812
00:40:34,996 --> 00:40:40,046
with whenever it gives me something
that I don't think was correct.

813
00:40:41,006 --> 00:40:41,276
Yep.

814
00:40:41,456 --> 00:40:45,446
I, 99% of the time believe that
it's because I didn't give it enough

815
00:40:45,446 --> 00:40:48,906
information and it made a false
decision or it made an incorrect

816
00:40:48,906 --> 00:40:50,476
decision with lack of information.

817
00:40:50,696 --> 00:40:55,711
So I actually look at it as, Oh, I didn't,
I didn't realize it didn't know that.

818
00:40:56,211 --> 00:40:56,531
Exactly.

819
00:40:56,611 --> 00:40:58,071
And so I then correct it.

820
00:40:58,071 --> 00:40:58,571
It comes back

821
00:40:58,571 --> 00:40:59,331
to you, right?

822
00:40:59,341 --> 00:40:59,981
Cause I mean,

823
00:41:00,181 --> 00:41:00,451
yeah,

824
00:41:00,471 --> 00:41:02,491
you need to provide it more context.

825
00:41:02,851 --> 00:41:07,361
So I guess my point here is that like,
yeah, like with enough safety rails, with

826
00:41:07,361 --> 00:41:11,132
enough testing, and that's why I'm so
focused on agentic DevOps in my courses

827
00:41:11,132 --> 00:41:14,747
and training and whatnot, because I
feel like that's the next realm of us

828
00:41:14,757 --> 00:41:20,297
really ramping up our own understanding,
evaluations, understanding how do we

829
00:41:20,297 --> 00:41:23,927
test these things so that, and how do we
make sure that humans are in the loop?

830
00:41:23,947 --> 00:41:30,417
How do we, you know, sure we can have
an AI evaluate the PR of the first AI

831
00:41:30,417 --> 00:41:33,567
and a different AI evaluates the first
one wrote it a different one, but that

832
00:41:33,587 --> 00:41:35,577
AI is, for the foreseeable future.

833
00:41:35,597 --> 00:41:39,397
I don't see the AI automatically
approving the PR after it reviewed it.

834
00:41:39,637 --> 00:41:41,917
I still want to take, make a, take a look.

835
00:41:42,237 --> 00:41:46,937
If the PR is got a thousand lines of code
that I have, or 5, 000 lines of code,

836
00:41:47,207 --> 00:41:50,387
I'm probably going to ask it to simplify
that PR and break it into different

837
00:41:50,397 --> 00:41:52,007
PRs, like I'm going to reject that, just

838
00:41:52,087 --> 00:41:53,527
does it align with my roadmap?

839
00:41:53,557 --> 00:41:53,907
Right.

840
00:41:53,987 --> 00:41:55,537
Is that what I want in my product?

841
00:41:55,647 --> 00:41:55,807
Right.

842
00:41:55,827 --> 00:41:57,287
That's also something you'd say.

843
00:41:57,757 --> 00:41:58,587
So I don't, yeah.

844
00:41:58,587 --> 00:42:03,297
So I'm not as confused or is
scared around like how we're going

845
00:42:03,297 --> 00:42:04,877
to wrangle this thing anymore.

846
00:42:04,907 --> 00:42:10,237
I think we're all very aware that it
can be wrong, and whether it's wrong

847
00:42:10,237 --> 00:42:12,977
because of a hallucination, because
it literally made something up out of

848
00:42:12,977 --> 00:42:15,807
the blue, even though it was told to
do something different, which again,

849
00:42:15,807 --> 00:42:20,127
I think that's increasingly rare, or
I just didn't give it enough context.

850
00:42:20,147 --> 00:42:24,147
I didn't give it the right doc so that
it knew to make a better decision.

851
00:42:24,567 --> 00:42:27,327
I feel like that's going to be
more of the problem going forward.

852
00:42:27,817 --> 00:42:31,437
Context, I keep saying that 2026 is a
year of context, like we're learning

853
00:42:31,437 --> 00:42:32,717
how to give it the right context.

854
00:42:32,717 --> 00:42:35,797
What skills are really about is
context, it's really helping us

855
00:42:35,797 --> 00:42:37,537
help it make the right decision.

856
00:42:37,537 --> 00:42:37,707
So

857
00:42:37,707 --> 00:42:38,017
I would switch

858
00:42:38,187 --> 00:42:39,297
back a little bit on that.

859
00:42:39,797 --> 00:42:41,657
I built a couple of different skills.

860
00:42:41,667 --> 00:42:45,897
So I built one just for fun to see
how it works with OpenClaw and it was

861
00:42:45,897 --> 00:42:50,002
essentially connecting my Garmin watch,
and Strava and pulling all this data

862
00:42:50,002 --> 00:42:54,732
in and it's my sleep patterns and all
this health obsession sensor data.

863
00:42:55,212 --> 00:42:57,862
And essentially it pulled everything
in and it tells you exactly,

864
00:42:57,862 --> 00:42:59,412
okay, now it's sunny outside.

865
00:42:59,412 --> 00:43:02,652
Now it'd be the perfect time to go for a
jog or bike ride or something like this.

866
00:43:02,662 --> 00:43:07,502
So it's judging and it says, Oh,
most likely you'll have your fastest

867
00:43:07,502 --> 00:43:09,792
run this week if you go now, right?

868
00:43:09,862 --> 00:43:10,552
Type of things.

869
00:43:10,992 --> 00:43:11,432
So, I mean,

870
00:43:13,492 --> 00:43:15,382
so it was pretty cool with
what's possible there.

871
00:43:15,402 --> 00:43:19,562
And the other use case, I mean, I have a
bunch of web sites that I'm running, and

872
00:43:19,632 --> 00:43:23,312
it's more like testing for our casino.

873
00:43:23,452 --> 00:43:27,762
So we have a bunch of stuff, big content
sites we're always testing, and I, one of

874
00:43:27,762 --> 00:43:30,252
the sites was not passing web core vitals.

875
00:43:30,752 --> 00:43:33,472
And if you don't know what that is,
it's like Google's measurement on

876
00:43:33,552 --> 00:43:37,402
speed and optimization and SEO and all
these like things you have to pass.

877
00:43:38,312 --> 00:43:38,842
Accessibility.

878
00:43:38,922 --> 00:43:39,582
Exactly.

879
00:43:40,002 --> 00:43:41,002
Accessibility.

880
00:43:41,092 --> 00:43:42,942
And it's like four key points.

881
00:43:43,352 --> 00:43:44,812
And my website wasn't passing.

882
00:43:44,812 --> 00:43:46,812
I was trying to mimic what
we have in production.

883
00:43:47,312 --> 00:43:51,032
And essentially it was like, the images
were too big, too much JavaScript.

884
00:43:51,032 --> 00:43:52,322
It had a bunch of junk in there.

885
00:43:52,472 --> 00:43:56,572
And I said, okay, you have access to
my Google analytics, you have access

886
00:43:56,572 --> 00:44:02,782
to the Google core web vitals, and you
have access to the WordPress, we don't

887
00:44:02,782 --> 00:44:04,242
use WordPress at work, but don't worry.

888
00:44:04,742 --> 00:44:08,682
And basically it went out, it
built itself a skill for WordPress.

889
00:44:08,872 --> 00:44:13,462
It built itself a skill to connect to
all the different Google endpoints.

890
00:44:13,952 --> 00:44:14,982
And then it started testing.

891
00:44:15,182 --> 00:44:17,782
It started iterating and
going, okay, now I fix this.

892
00:44:17,842 --> 00:44:21,322
Now I can go start moving JavaScript
and figure out if it breaks anything.

893
00:44:21,332 --> 00:44:24,572
And it kept really iterating all
these things until it actually

894
00:44:24,572 --> 00:44:26,832
passed it, the core web vitals.

895
00:44:26,852 --> 00:44:27,982
So it fixed it itself.

896
00:44:28,482 --> 00:44:32,782
I mean, it took like 40 minutes, I
think, and a gazillion tokens, but but

897
00:44:32,822 --> 00:44:35,252
it did successfully fix my website.

898
00:44:35,512 --> 00:44:38,342
So, I mean, it went out there,
it did all these things.

899
00:44:38,842 --> 00:44:40,102
I mean, I was quite impressed.

900
00:44:40,602 --> 00:44:44,742
So you're running OpenClaw on a cloud
server, it sounds like, not like you

901
00:44:44,742 --> 00:44:45,667
didn't buy the Yeah,
I'm running a digital.

902
00:44:45,667 --> 00:44:46,097
Didn't put it in

903
00:44:46,097 --> 00:44:46,572
your closet.

904
00:44:47,072 --> 00:44:48,542
.
Hey, I'm, I'm happy everybody's doing it.

905
00:44:48,572 --> 00:44:51,062
'cause you know, as a Apple
shareholder, that makes me happy.

906
00:44:51,152 --> 00:44:53,362
But I see no value in this at all.

907
00:44:53,362 --> 00:44:56,632
I mean, running in the cloud server,
it costs what, four, $8 a month,

908
00:44:56,632 --> 00:44:58,492
whatever it is to have a cloud server.

909
00:44:58,962 --> 00:44:59,742
Does the job.

910
00:45:00,242 --> 00:45:04,812
Is it, So I guess for that price, it's,
it doesn't need a lot of resources.

911
00:45:04,852 --> 00:45:07,052
I mean, I'm assuming, I was
assuming it would need at least,

912
00:45:07,052 --> 00:45:10,582
you know, four CPUs and 16 gig
of RAM, like that kind of thing.

913
00:45:10,942 --> 00:45:12,422
I mean, you can run it on a Raspberry Pi.

914
00:45:12,452 --> 00:45:14,592
The thing is, it depends
what you're doing.

915
00:45:14,592 --> 00:45:18,162
If you're just doing like a
bunch of queries to the LLM, you

916
00:45:18,162 --> 00:45:19,322
don't need much power at all.

917
00:45:19,752 --> 00:45:23,942
Now, if you're like building something
locally, obviously you need the power

918
00:45:23,942 --> 00:45:26,976
to run this locally, application,
whatever you're building locally.

919
00:45:27,476 --> 00:45:31,206
So that's where the power is required,
or if you're running a local LLM.

920
00:45:32,666 --> 00:45:33,066
Right?

921
00:45:33,106 --> 00:45:36,146
I think that's a point
too, is like, I probably.

922
00:45:36,646 --> 00:45:40,196
Like, I wouldn't personally be interested
in running, I think like the future might

923
00:45:40,196 --> 00:45:43,496
be it runs in the closet on a local LLM
and then it's essentially free, right?

924
00:45:43,576 --> 00:45:44,256
That's the dream.

925
00:45:44,296 --> 00:45:45,316
That's living the dream right there.

926
00:45:45,316 --> 00:45:48,146
That's why I think people buy the
Mac minis, but I mean, I'm on an

927
00:45:48,146 --> 00:45:52,366
M4 and the models I want to run
still can't fit on my 48 gig memory.

928
00:45:52,566 --> 00:45:55,476
Like, I basically need a half a terabyte
of memory to really run anything.

929
00:45:55,546 --> 00:46:00,071
If you're really going to run a proper
and model locally, you need a Ferrari

930
00:46:00,081 --> 00:46:01,551
server sitting underneath your desk.

931
00:46:01,551 --> 00:46:01,761
Right.

932
00:46:01,791 --> 00:46:05,731
I mean, that thing is going to be a beefy
Nvidia, something or other, but yeah.

933
00:46:06,231 --> 00:46:10,811
does it help me to pull Garmin data
they have this massive model sitting

934
00:46:10,811 --> 00:46:12,511
underneath my desk, probably not, right.

935
00:46:12,511 --> 00:46:12,861
Yeah.

936
00:46:13,361 --> 00:46:17,471
So, so your choices are really like
use a cloud model and potentially

937
00:46:17,471 --> 00:46:21,151
OpenClaw, it uses up a bunch of tokens
and burns through your credit card

938
00:46:21,151 --> 00:46:22,441
or whatever, unless you set limits.

939
00:46:22,442 --> 00:46:26,011
And then if you set limits, then it
can only work so much, then it stops.

940
00:46:26,511 --> 00:46:29,631
Have you run into that where like
you set limits and it hits a limit?

941
00:46:29,631 --> 00:46:30,671
Like, or do you

942
00:46:30,671 --> 00:46:31,781
just let it YOLO through

943
00:46:31,781 --> 00:46:31,991
your,

944
00:46:32,491 --> 00:46:35,131
it YOLOed very quickly through my limits.

945
00:46:35,181 --> 00:46:37,671
and I had like the auto
fill enabled as well.

946
00:46:37,671 --> 00:46:41,541
And also I got like two emails after
another, like 100, 100 from Anthropic,

947
00:46:42,221 --> 00:46:45,211
100, I'm like, what the hell's going on?

948
00:46:45,601 --> 00:46:46,351
I couldn't figure it out.

949
00:46:46,351 --> 00:46:48,781
I'm like, maybe it's just like an
error in the Anthropic or something.

950
00:46:48,781 --> 00:46:52,016
And I realized it's like, It's
going in the background, just, and

951
00:46:52,016 --> 00:46:57,576
I had this, I had this like a refill
the API going in the background.

952
00:46:57,586 --> 00:47:00,626
That was brutal, but I figured
that out and essentially what I

953
00:47:00,636 --> 00:47:05,036
have now is, I built my server
so it starts at a very low model.

954
00:47:05,296 --> 00:47:10,677
So for example, on, it uses Sonnet or
Haiku on Claude for the basic tasks.

955
00:47:10,727 --> 00:47:13,297
Hey, kicking off a cron,
kicking off these things.

956
00:47:13,647 --> 00:47:16,317
And then if it can't figure it
out, it escalates to Sonnet.

957
00:47:16,467 --> 00:47:19,127
And if not, it goes up to Opus.

958
00:47:19,397 --> 00:47:19,797
Oh, wow.

959
00:47:20,247 --> 00:47:22,917
Is that a built in feature or did you?

960
00:47:23,577 --> 00:47:26,717
It's built in by, you can do that
either on Claude or on OpenClaw.

961
00:47:27,397 --> 00:47:29,327
Basically you can say,
Hey, start at this model.

962
00:47:29,647 --> 00:47:33,477
But if you, if I say these specific
commands, then automatically use Opus.

963
00:47:33,977 --> 00:47:34,347
Okay.

964
00:47:34,847 --> 00:47:35,037
Okay.

965
00:47:35,037 --> 00:47:36,027
So it sort of triggers that.

966
00:47:36,027 --> 00:47:40,777
So if you said like, develop
me a backend, you know, Golang,

967
00:47:40,787 --> 00:47:41,937
you, it might trigger that.

968
00:47:41,937 --> 00:47:42,467
Exactly.

969
00:47:42,617 --> 00:47:43,047
Yeah.

970
00:47:43,417 --> 00:47:47,037
We've got a bunch of links to share, but
what is your general advice that you would

971
00:47:47,077 --> 00:47:50,117
like if someone, if you're in the elevator
and you've got just a couple of, if you've

972
00:47:50,117 --> 00:47:53,157
got 60 seconds with someone and they're
like, I really want to get into OpenClaw,

973
00:47:53,657 --> 00:47:59,067
what are some like not to do's and what
to do's, for someone right, like today.

974
00:47:59,087 --> 00:48:02,337
Cause obviously like there's been lots of
iteration in the last couple of months.

975
00:48:02,837 --> 00:48:06,217
It sounds like it's a little more
mature, still very early days,

976
00:48:06,237 --> 00:48:09,617
but a little more mature than the
wild, wild West V dot, you know, 0.

977
00:48:09,617 --> 00:48:09,636
1.

978
00:48:10,136 --> 00:48:12,306
mean, I would recommend
everyone to install it, just

979
00:48:12,316 --> 00:48:13,526
to figure out how it works.

980
00:48:14,006 --> 00:48:16,666
I would maybe not use it for production
or anything like this, but just

981
00:48:16,686 --> 00:48:21,666
understand how all the memory files work
and how the whole, how it's all built.

982
00:48:21,756 --> 00:48:25,766
Because this configuration is now
being adopted by Claude and OpenAI.

983
00:48:26,746 --> 00:48:29,846
They're all kind of using
the same type of structure.

984
00:48:30,346 --> 00:48:34,306
And I believe it's going to be the
standard across all the models quite soon.

985
00:48:34,806 --> 00:48:34,946
So

986
00:48:34,946 --> 00:48:35,226
you have,

987
00:48:35,277 --> 00:48:36,687
I'm going to put your links in here.

988
00:48:36,687 --> 00:48:39,677
You've got a security
checklist you created.

989
00:48:40,177 --> 00:48:41,357
And this is a skill as well.

990
00:48:41,357 --> 00:48:44,107
So, I mean, like I said, it's a
skill that goes out, makes sure you

991
00:48:44,107 --> 00:48:48,267
have fail2ban enabled, your firewall
enabled, all these different things.

992
00:48:48,767 --> 00:48:51,347
And I encourage everyone
to build their own skill.

993
00:48:51,847 --> 00:48:52,947
I mean, you don't have to use mine.

994
00:48:53,127 --> 00:48:56,647
It's just, you can use it as a
reference and say, Hey, use this

995
00:48:56,647 --> 00:48:57,947
as reference, build my own skill.

996
00:48:58,447 --> 00:48:58,847
Yeah.

997
00:48:59,247 --> 00:49:01,617
And that's what I'm encouraging everybody.

998
00:49:01,627 --> 00:49:05,027
Build your own skills because it
matches your use case better anyway.

999
00:49:05,527 --> 00:49:09,117
So one of the things that I'm, I
don't actually know this for a fact,

1000
00:49:09,117 --> 00:49:11,397
but one of the things I'm assuming
that people are doing is there,

1001
00:49:11,897 --> 00:49:14,797
hallucination factor with certain models.

1002
00:49:14,837 --> 00:49:19,177
So if someone's trying to do this on
the cheap, and they're trying to use a

1003
00:49:19,177 --> 00:49:22,207
local model, or they, you know, they're
using Raspberry, Raspberry Pi with a

1004
00:49:22,207 --> 00:49:26,487
local model that, you know, any, anything
other than a $10,000 rig is going

1005
00:49:26,487 --> 00:49:28,727
to have to run your own local model.

1006
00:49:28,987 --> 00:49:32,337
And those local models will hallucinate
more like generally they are not

1007
00:49:32,357 --> 00:49:36,327
like the state of the art open source
models that everyone talks about.

1008
00:49:36,327 --> 00:49:37,867
Oh, the latest Qwen is so great.

1009
00:49:38,137 --> 00:49:40,917
Like what they're talking about are
the models that take 400 gig of RAM.

1010
00:49:41,322 --> 00:49:46,032
So, unless you've got that, you're
going to be using a scaled down model,

1011
00:49:46,032 --> 00:49:49,182
essentially, that can fit on your
GPU, and those will hallucinate more.

1012
00:49:49,502 --> 00:49:56,032
So, I'm not even an OpenClaw user yet,
but I can anticipate that when I use

1013
00:49:56,032 --> 00:49:59,492
it, I'm going to want it using cloud
models, probably, and I'm going to have

1014
00:49:59,492 --> 00:50:02,722
to set limits like you did, because if
I'm going to make anything of value with

1015
00:50:02,722 --> 00:50:06,262
it, because James is like, don't hook it
up to anything value, valuable at all.

1016
00:50:06,532 --> 00:50:10,112
And sure, that can be your approach,
cause you can do things with it

1017
00:50:10,122 --> 00:50:12,652
without ever giving it keys to
your email or anything else, right?

1018
00:50:12,652 --> 00:50:13,712
Like you don't have to give it

1019
00:50:13,712 --> 00:50:14,032
keys.

1020
00:50:14,502 --> 00:50:16,672
You don't have to give it
access to all of your stuff.

1021
00:50:16,702 --> 00:50:20,912
You can, it can be just like Claude
Code, which has access to local tooling

1022
00:50:20,912 --> 00:50:23,187
and can do, you know, stuff like that.

1023
00:50:23,317 --> 00:50:27,087
And just access things in the open
that things that are public, but, I,

1024
00:50:27,137 --> 00:50:29,837
I personally, regarding the
security real quick, Brett is,

1025
00:50:29,837 --> 00:50:31,247
the least permission model, right?

1026
00:50:31,247 --> 00:50:32,307
The least privileged model.

1027
00:50:32,767 --> 00:50:38,017
So even for OpenClaw or whatever
API tool you're using, set up API

1028
00:50:38,047 --> 00:50:40,692
keys specific the agent, right?

1029
00:50:41,152 --> 00:50:42,552
So lock it down.

1030
00:50:42,552 --> 00:50:45,092
So it only has read permission
and these types of things.

1031
00:50:45,512 --> 00:50:49,372
Don't give it access to your email,
set up its own email box, for example,

1032
00:50:49,382 --> 00:50:50,542
you know, do these types of things.

1033
00:50:50,552 --> 00:50:53,552
So then you're really certain
that it doesn't, the blast

1034
00:50:53,552 --> 00:50:54,612
radius is a bit smaller.

1035
00:50:55,112 --> 00:50:58,982
Yeah, it, it actually speaks a little
bit to, I've been thinking more about

1036
00:50:58,992 --> 00:51:05,682
like came about, about with MCP as well,
how much our API permission models are

1037
00:51:05,682 --> 00:51:12,692
based on humans and not bots, because
for example, if I was going to tiptoe

1038
00:51:12,692 --> 00:51:16,562
into giving it access to my email,
I would want to set up an, you know,

1039
00:51:16,562 --> 00:51:20,482
rules that basically it's like you get
read only and you only get my inbox.

1040
00:51:20,877 --> 00:51:24,747
And you only get this one folder
and you can't do anything, or you

1041
00:51:24,747 --> 00:51:27,417
can only write drafts, but you don't
have the permissions to send, you

1042
00:51:27,417 --> 00:51:28,857
can write the draft and review it.

1043
00:51:29,167 --> 00:51:32,857
But I don't believe we have all those
layers of API model permission, like

1044
00:51:32,877 --> 00:51:37,187
API permissions, because we've never
really needed that level of granularity.

1045
00:51:37,217 --> 00:51:40,767
Like it's either like you get access
to my email inbox and everything,

1046
00:51:41,347 --> 00:51:43,447
you get God access or no access.

1047
00:51:43,477 --> 00:51:47,357
And that's, and I'm maybe I'm outdated,
maybe the new Google tool actually

1048
00:51:47,357 --> 00:51:49,467
provides some sort of permissions
level that I'm not aware of, but

1049
00:51:49,847 --> 00:51:53,387
I suspected for a while that we're
going to need to come up with all new

1050
00:51:53,387 --> 00:51:57,327
levels of permissions to really scope
limit this, at least I hope we do.

1051
00:51:57,357 --> 00:52:01,207
Gosh, as an industry, I hope we do
because we're going to want, we're going

1052
00:52:01,207 --> 00:52:02,627
to want to tiptoe with these things.

1053
00:52:02,637 --> 00:52:06,647
And I've been trying to think about how we
can go around the approach of dynamically

1054
00:52:06,647 --> 00:52:08,247
changing permissions on the fly.

1055
00:52:08,247 --> 00:52:09,137
So for example.

1056
00:52:09,622 --> 00:52:12,742
I give it the read permissions
and only, it only gets the right

1057
00:52:12,742 --> 00:52:18,182
key, the WR, like the key to write
to things or do the updates and

1058
00:52:18,182 --> 00:52:20,557
deletions once I've approved it.

1059
00:52:20,557 --> 00:52:24,267
And it can't even accidentally hallucinate
and do it because it doesn't have the key.

1060
00:52:24,557 --> 00:52:28,297
So like somehow we're going to need
to come up with these new model, these

1061
00:52:28,327 --> 00:52:31,717
new permission mechanisms, and like, we
might even have to modify one password

1062
00:52:31,717 --> 00:52:35,097
to dynamically switch things out and
environment variables, which historically

1063
00:52:35,097 --> 00:52:38,077
environment variables that change
don't, you have to restart the program.

1064
00:52:38,077 --> 00:52:40,864
Like there's all these things at
the system level that I'm, and so,

1065
00:52:40,864 --> 00:52:43,315
what I'm really thinking about is
like, we're going to have to probably

1066
00:52:43,315 --> 00:52:47,095
adapt a lot of the infrastructure of
the internet to truly do all this.

1067
00:52:47,205 --> 00:52:48,255
To support this, right?

1068
00:52:48,255 --> 00:52:48,505
Yeah.

1069
00:52:48,535 --> 00:52:49,325
To support this.

1070
00:52:49,585 --> 00:52:53,395
It's a solved problem already, like by
infrastructure, but now we need to adapt

1071
00:52:53,395 --> 00:52:55,355
it to AI, which is not prepared for this.

1072
00:52:55,855 --> 00:52:58,035
The granularity of permissions
and things like this.

1073
00:52:58,065 --> 00:52:58,745
I just see.

1074
00:52:59,115 --> 00:53:01,885
I've been around quite a few people
looked at their servers and whatnot, and

1075
00:53:01,895 --> 00:53:03,675
they just yellowed all the permissions.

1076
00:53:04,145 --> 00:53:06,235
I'm like, wow, you live dangerously, huh?

1077
00:53:06,735 --> 00:53:10,265
And it just takes one
wrong command and yeah.

1078
00:53:10,765 --> 00:53:11,105
Yeah.

1079
00:53:11,105 --> 00:53:13,235
The, the last thing I want to talk
about, ask you about real quick

1080
00:53:13,235 --> 00:53:16,285
is NanoClaw because that's, this
is like hot off the press kind of

1081
00:53:16,295 --> 00:53:18,165
stuff that even newer than OpenClaw.

1082
00:53:18,185 --> 00:53:20,495
And I didn't, I only saw the headlines.

1083
00:53:20,495 --> 00:53:21,365
I didn't know what it was about.

1084
00:53:21,375 --> 00:53:23,995
It sounds like, you know, a
little bit more than I do.

1085
00:53:24,035 --> 00:53:26,245
Give us like the elevator
pitch of NanoClaw.

1086
00:53:26,745 --> 00:53:27,045
Sure.

1087
00:53:27,065 --> 00:53:32,585
So NanoClaw is essentially just a, a
real bare bones version of OpenClaw.

1088
00:53:33,045 --> 00:53:37,115
And actually, on the website, they
actually mentioned that OpenClaw is like,

1089
00:53:37,115 --> 00:53:42,165
what, 50,000 lines of code and 7,000
integrations and then just thousands

1090
00:53:42,165 --> 00:53:43,385
and thousands of everything, right?

1091
00:53:43,825 --> 00:53:46,595
And I believe NanoClaw is
like 5,000 lines of code.

1092
00:53:47,095 --> 00:53:49,925
All the agents are spun up
inside Docker containers.

1093
00:53:49,995 --> 00:53:53,790
So it really isolates the agents
compared to your operating system.

1094
00:53:54,180 --> 00:53:57,640
And it's really built like security
first, which is quite interesting.

1095
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:01,040
And since I'm a huge Docker fan myself,
I think it's quite a nice setup.

1096
00:54:01,390 --> 00:54:05,680
And I think it's one of the
only, only Claws out there that

1097
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:07,460
supports like swarms of agents.

1098
00:54:07,630 --> 00:54:10,150
So you have Docker swarm and you have
the agents, you can kind of swarm

1099
00:54:10,150 --> 00:54:13,360
up your agents, which is quite a
cool concept if you think about it.

1100
00:54:13,850 --> 00:54:14,260
Yeah.

1101
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:18,400
Is Nanoclaw at the point where
like someone would skip OpenClaw

1102
00:54:18,890 --> 00:54:20,580
and use Nanoclaw instead?

1103
00:54:20,750 --> 00:54:22,163
Is that, how does, is it

1104
00:54:22,163 --> 00:54:22,570
a replacement for OpenClaw?

1105
00:54:22,570 --> 00:54:24,350
It's definitely prepared for that.

1106
00:54:24,720 --> 00:54:24,880
Yeah.

1107
00:54:24,880 --> 00:54:26,320
I think it's definitely ready for that.

1108
00:54:26,340 --> 00:54:26,920
Now it's.

1109
00:54:27,420 --> 00:54:30,310
It's limited as far as features
because they want to keep it lean.

1110
00:54:30,310 --> 00:54:32,780
So it's only like Telegram
and WhatsApp you can use.

1111
00:54:32,780 --> 00:54:34,450
You can't use Discord
and all these things.

1112
00:54:34,950 --> 00:54:37,930
So they really limited the
plugins and everything else

1113
00:54:37,960 --> 00:54:39,450
to really focus on security.

1114
00:54:39,950 --> 00:54:43,580
And then you can always build on top of
it, but they want to make it secure first.

1115
00:54:44,080 --> 00:54:46,700
So this is not just a
wrapper around OpenClaw.

1116
00:54:46,720 --> 00:54:47,760
This is like something,

1117
00:54:47,770 --> 00:54:49,680
This is a separate
project altogether, yep.

1118
00:54:49,780 --> 00:54:50,170
Okay.

1119
00:54:50,670 --> 00:54:52,580
well, I certainly liked
the container aspect.

1120
00:54:52,630 --> 00:54:57,570
I've been really surprised how little
we've been isolating with containers

1121
00:54:57,770 --> 00:54:59,720
so far, like between the harnesses.

1122
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,020
Like, I mean, one of the biggest concerns
a year ago and when Claude Code came

1123
00:55:03,020 --> 00:55:05,980
out was the fact that it sort of had
roughshod over your system, still does.

1124
00:55:06,290 --> 00:55:06,550
Yep.

1125
00:55:06,680 --> 00:55:10,450
Cowork, I've been playing around with
Cowork lately, cause I'm trying to

1126
00:55:10,450 --> 00:55:14,220
get my wife into it, not a developer,
and giving her Claude Desktop.

1127
00:55:14,240 --> 00:55:17,010
And now that's got Cowork,
Claude Chat, Claude Cowork and

1128
00:55:17,010 --> 00:55:18,840
Claude code all in one tool.

1129
00:55:19,160 --> 00:55:21,290
the Claude code GUI is kind of garbage.

1130
00:55:21,290 --> 00:55:23,920
I wouldn't recommend anybody use
that yet, but it's like the worst

1131
00:55:23,930 --> 00:55:26,250
of the GUIs for coding harnesses.

1132
00:55:26,270 --> 00:55:29,930
But the Coworking is really interesting
because it just, it's simply to

1133
00:55:29,930 --> 00:55:33,660
me, it's like giving, it's actually
running in a VM on your machine.

1134
00:55:33,660 --> 00:55:36,400
I think I saw someone on the internet
saying it just downloaded a 40 gig VM.

1135
00:55:36,400 --> 00:55:38,280
And I'm like, yep, we're back to the VM.

1136
00:55:38,300 --> 00:55:39,000
We're back to VM.

1137
00:55:40,050 --> 00:55:43,690
And it does it very transparently
and it only mounts in the directories

1138
00:55:43,720 --> 00:55:45,780
that you give it when you set it,
when you start it, you actually

1139
00:55:45,780 --> 00:55:47,140
tell it which directory to start in.

1140
00:55:47,150 --> 00:55:49,310
And that it only has permissions,
that directory, it kind of bind

1141
00:55:49,330 --> 00:55:50,650
mounts it in, I guess, to the VM.

1142
00:55:51,020 --> 00:55:54,770
So I can, I'm excited to hear about
NanoClaw because I feel like, okay,

1143
00:55:55,210 --> 00:55:58,630
we've settled down the hype, like we,
a little bit, like we're, and we're

1144
00:55:58,630 --> 00:56:03,440
starting to see signs of the first
iterations of maturity, which means

1145
00:56:03,450 --> 00:56:07,715
that people are finally going to bring
in security conversations, which to me

1146
00:56:07,715 --> 00:56:10,540
means, okay, now we're doing VMs locally
that are transparent in the background.

1147
00:56:10,540 --> 00:56:13,220
Now we're going to be doing containers
locally, and I've actually been

1148
00:56:13,220 --> 00:56:18,250
surprised at Docker Desktop not
having, not being the leaders in this.

1149
00:56:18,610 --> 00:56:21,180
I've actually been a little concerned
that Claude Code is just going to

1150
00:56:21,180 --> 00:56:25,360
basically run right past Docker
Desktop and that would, someone told

1151
00:56:25,360 --> 00:56:29,900
me that the, in the near future, Claude
Desktop, or whatever the iterations

1152
00:56:29,900 --> 00:56:32,985
are going to be, like, that will be
the way we all run containers because

1153
00:56:32,985 --> 00:56:34,235
we're going to be running it with AI.

1154
00:56:34,235 --> 00:56:37,605
And it's actually going to, anyway, it's
like a conspiracy theory or maybe a little

1155
00:56:37,605 --> 00:56:41,375
bit, but, it's been interesting to see
how finally we're getting to back into

1156
00:56:41,375 --> 00:56:45,675
VMs and containers with these toolings
and that they're not just like, they're

1157
00:56:45,675 --> 00:56:48,005
not native inside of Docker desktop yet.

1158
00:56:48,005 --> 00:56:50,855
I mean, you have MCP, you have,
AI, Gordon and all these other

1159
00:56:50,855 --> 00:56:51,965
things inside of Docker desktop.

1160
00:56:52,315 --> 00:56:56,295
There's been like, there's sandboxing and
all these things, these new lab things

1161
00:56:56,295 --> 00:56:59,780
are doing, like they've got so much stuff
they're releasing over the last six months

1162
00:56:59,780 --> 00:57:00,830
that I haven't been able to keep up.

1163
00:57:01,340 --> 00:57:03,800
Because that's pretty much obviously
what Docker is also focused on right

1164
00:57:03,800 --> 00:57:08,170
now is, continuing to iterate on
their tooling around Cagent and, yeah,

1165
00:57:08,170 --> 00:57:11,270
their stuff for running AI safely
inside of Docker containers, which I

1166
00:57:11,270 --> 00:57:14,850
am, I can't, I'm looking forward to
the day where none of this stuff is

1167
00:57:14,860 --> 00:57:16,760
installing tools on my system anymore.

1168
00:57:16,760 --> 00:57:17,900
It's all doing exactly.

1169
00:57:17,901 --> 00:57:17,915
Exactly.

1170
00:57:18,415 --> 00:57:20,295
So, well, this has been awesome, dude.

1171
00:57:20,345 --> 00:57:22,925
I wish we could go for
three more hours, but I'm

1172
00:57:22,955 --> 00:57:23,855
now we have to do it again.

1173
00:57:24,145 --> 00:57:28,415
I, before we go, I encourage everyone,
regardless if you're a developer or

1174
00:57:28,415 --> 00:57:34,085
a high level AI user, I found this
project, and it's what Claude Code

1175
00:57:34,125 --> 00:57:36,520
PM course, for product managers.

1176
00:57:37,020 --> 00:57:40,560
And I know it sounds for product managers,
but actually it's using Claude Code in

1177
00:57:40,560 --> 00:57:44,140
the terminal, and you're actually walking
through setting it all up and everything.

1178
00:57:44,550 --> 00:57:48,480
And what I find really great about
this, it explains the structure and

1179
00:57:48,490 --> 00:57:52,740
how Claude works with all the files and
how you can actually spin up multiple

1180
00:57:52,740 --> 00:57:54,710
agents and personalize all the agents.

1181
00:57:54,990 --> 00:57:58,640
And I think this is just a brilliant
resource for people to really

1182
00:57:58,640 --> 00:58:02,580
understand how the different AIs work,
because I believe the structural work

1183
00:58:02,580 --> 00:58:05,095
with any LM or any model out there.

1184
00:58:05,595 --> 00:58:09,835
So if you understand how it works and you
can kind of recreate it for your business

1185
00:58:09,885 --> 00:58:14,055
or whatever, cause my objective is then
create this structure for my whole team.

1186
00:58:14,305 --> 00:58:18,575
So everyone uses the same structure and
spins off Claudes off the structure.

1187
00:58:18,575 --> 00:58:20,365
So everyone's using the same context.

1188
00:58:20,865 --> 00:58:22,045
It's pretty cool.

1189
00:58:22,145 --> 00:58:23,275
I'm going to check that one out.

1190
00:58:23,775 --> 00:58:27,205
I have some of my favorite skills
lately are things like marketing skills.

1191
00:58:27,235 --> 00:58:29,355
And I have a front end designer skill.

1192
00:58:29,365 --> 00:58:32,085
I think it's actually part of the
Claude Code, skills list, but yeah,

1193
00:58:32,085 --> 00:58:35,795
like the things that I'm definitely
interested in skills around things

1194
00:58:35,795 --> 00:58:40,215
that I am not good at, because that's
usually where I will give bad prompting.

1195
00:58:40,715 --> 00:58:44,549
The AI will more likely go off the rails,
so yeah, I'm supplementing my, like, I

1196
00:58:44,549 --> 00:58:48,009
don't have the lawyer ones yet, but I,
it's actually pretty good at contract

1197
00:58:48,009 --> 00:58:51,019
review out of the box without any
skills, but I feel like I probably need

1198
00:58:51,019 --> 00:58:53,259
that in my little consulting business.

1199
00:58:53,349 --> 00:58:54,459
So this has been fun.

1200
00:58:54,469 --> 00:58:57,619
I, do you think that I could
just skip OpenClaw for now?

1201
00:58:57,619 --> 00:59:00,899
And just, if I've only got a few
hours a week to tinker around, would

1202
00:59:00,899 --> 00:59:04,899
Nanocloud be the thing I should point
to first, or do you think I need to

1203
00:59:04,899 --> 00:59:05,049
start?

1204
00:59:05,049 --> 00:59:09,589
Actually, I'd point to this course right
here, to this Claude Code PM course,

1205
00:59:10,129 --> 00:59:13,459
because I mean, then it kind of gives you
the baseline on how you should be using

1206
00:59:13,469 --> 00:59:19,549
your AI and how you should be creating sub
agents and agents and swarms of agents.

1207
00:59:19,589 --> 00:59:22,859
And like I said, It's built for Claude,
but I really believe you can use

1208
00:59:22,859 --> 00:59:25,099
this with OpenAI, Gemini, et cetera.

1209
00:59:25,439 --> 00:59:26,699
The same rules apply, okay.

1210
00:59:27,199 --> 00:59:31,549
Real quick, last question on your
skills, do you, you talked about, you

1211
00:59:31,549 --> 00:59:32,709
put them in their own separate repos.

1212
00:59:32,749 --> 00:59:36,619
Does that mean you're doing like Git sub
modules or like, are you checking out?

1213
00:59:37,119 --> 00:59:38,439
Repos inside of repos.

1214
00:59:38,439 --> 00:59:39,909
Is that, how are you doing that?

1215
00:59:40,409 --> 00:59:42,669
It is, it is submodules.

1216
00:59:42,829 --> 00:59:44,689
I have to actually look through
it again because it's all being

1217
00:59:44,689 --> 00:59:46,489
done by Claude . Oh, okay.

1218
00:59:46,854 --> 00:59:47,449
So there, so

1219
00:59:47,594 --> 00:59:49,849
I don't, I don't see any
code commits or anything.

1220
00:59:49,849 --> 00:59:50,149
I,

1221
00:59:50,649 --> 00:59:50,949
yeah.

1222
00:59:50,949 --> 00:59:54,939
So you're asking it, you're saying
like, go get this skill from this repo.

1223
00:59:55,169 --> 00:59:55,559
Is that

1224
00:59:55,969 --> 00:59:56,329
Yes.

1225
00:59:56,569 --> 00:59:56,779
Yep.

1226
00:59:56,779 --> 00:59:57,019
Okay.

1227
00:59:57,459 --> 00:59:57,699
Okay.

1228
00:59:57,699 --> 00:59:58,389
So, and it figures

1229
00:59:58,389 --> 01:00:02,349
out, but it is still installed locally,
but I am, all code changes are then

1230
01:00:02,349 --> 01:00:06,719
committed to this repo and, yeah,
essentially what I said is like,

1231
01:00:06,759 --> 01:00:10,109
okay, you can write code to the skill.

1232
01:00:10,109 --> 01:00:13,619
You could do all these things, but
you're not allowed to commit directly.

1233
01:00:14,004 --> 01:00:15,224
So I made it very specific.

1234
01:00:15,234 --> 01:00:16,474
You can't commit directly.

1235
01:00:16,474 --> 01:00:18,074
You have to create a pull request.

1236
01:00:18,404 --> 01:00:21,074
And I, I'm the only one that
can merge the pull request.

1237
01:00:21,484 --> 01:00:23,414
So, because I mean, I learned
over time that I was just

1238
01:00:23,414 --> 01:00:24,534
writing directly the whole time.

1239
01:00:24,604 --> 01:00:27,954
And I said, okay, now I have to figure
out the proper workflow, so I understand

1240
01:00:28,394 --> 01:00:30,014
what the heck it's trying to write.

1241
01:00:30,514 --> 01:00:30,804
Yeah.

1242
01:00:30,804 --> 01:00:34,274
And I can see like, I'm going to
be treating this thing, especially

1243
01:00:34,274 --> 01:00:36,684
as I would sort of ramp up my
automation with it on GitHub.

1244
01:00:36,734 --> 01:00:39,994
I'm going to do all the normal
GitHub things that I would do

1245
01:00:39,994 --> 01:00:41,004
for the first day employee.

1246
01:00:41,364 --> 01:00:43,614
Like I'm, I'm going to make Brent,
I make sure branch protections on

1247
01:00:43,614 --> 01:00:46,044
so that they can't write to the
release branch or the default branch.

1248
01:00:46,344 --> 01:00:49,404
I'm going to make sure that, you know,
PR reviews are mandatory and requires

1249
01:00:49,404 --> 01:00:51,554
approval and checks have to be run.

1250
01:00:51,564 --> 01:00:55,619
And like all of the, the rigor
of normal business level GitHub

1251
01:00:55,629 --> 01:00:56,699
stuff, it's all going to be there.

1252
01:00:56,929 --> 01:00:59,739
And when I give it a PAT, if
that's, I'm assuming what it needs.

1253
01:00:59,739 --> 01:01:00,629
I don't know if it's no auth.

1254
01:01:00,689 --> 01:01:01,509
It is flow.

1255
01:01:01,639 --> 01:01:01,919
Okay.

1256
01:01:02,289 --> 01:01:04,429
If I'm going to give it PAT or
whatever, I'm going to give it.

1257
01:01:06,239 --> 01:01:09,799
so that it can't just exactly the admin
in my repo and delete it because that's,

1258
01:01:09,819 --> 01:01:13,129
but be very careful because I mean,
these are really clever models.

1259
01:01:13,129 --> 01:01:17,549
I've had mine prompt me before as like, if
you only give me this extra permission, I

1260
01:01:17,549 --> 01:01:19,219
can probably do this, this, this as well.

1261
01:01:19,219 --> 01:01:22,099
You know, it was like really being clever
trying to get more permissions out of

1262
01:01:22,099 --> 01:01:24,829
me, like, no, no, try again tomorrow.

1263
01:01:25,469 --> 01:01:28,019
It's funny, it's funny you say that
because I had that happen last week

1264
01:01:28,019 --> 01:01:34,109
and I had a like a weird moment
of like Am I like, do I need to

1265
01:01:34,109 --> 01:01:35,509
get a defensive mode right now?

1266
01:01:35,509 --> 01:01:37,509
Like, do I need to like shields up myself?

1267
01:01:37,859 --> 01:01:41,149
Cause it, it, I think it was asking me,
I, it wasn't, I don't know if it was

1268
01:01:41,149 --> 01:01:43,989
a GitHub key, it was something else,
but I was just in a normal Claude Code

1269
01:01:43,989 --> 01:01:45,824
session and I was iterating project.

1270
01:01:45,824 --> 01:01:47,804
And it kept saying, well, if
you give me, I think it was

1271
01:01:47,804 --> 01:01:48,774
something to do with Digital Ocean.

1272
01:01:48,774 --> 01:01:51,464
It was like, if you give me your
Digital Ocean token, then I can

1273
01:01:51,464 --> 01:01:52,514
go and check all that for you.

1274
01:01:52,514 --> 01:01:54,544
And I was like, yeah, no, I'd
rather just check it on the

1275
01:01:54,544 --> 01:01:56,124
web interface myself, and yeah.

1276
01:01:57,184 --> 01:01:58,254
That's the same thing with Cloudflare.

1277
01:01:58,254 --> 01:02:01,194
It was like, it kept on reminding
me like all the time, like, Oh,

1278
01:02:01,204 --> 01:02:02,464
I need to flush the cache again.

1279
01:02:02,484 --> 01:02:04,754
It would be so much easier
if you just gave me the key.

1280
01:02:04,764 --> 01:02:06,914
And every time it really
reminded me of this.

1281
01:02:07,919 --> 01:02:08,979
I don't want to give you
access to Cloudflare.

1282
01:02:10,309 --> 01:02:12,409
Yeah, this is like, and this is
the kind of conversation I would

1283
01:02:12,419 --> 01:02:13,609
have with a junior employee.

1284
01:02:13,609 --> 01:02:14,429
That's like, you know,

1285
01:02:14,429 --> 01:02:15,819
if

1286
01:02:15,819 --> 01:02:17,969
you just gave me access to
that, I could do it for you.

1287
01:02:17,969 --> 01:02:20,319
And I'm like, well, let's let the
senior engineers do that for now.

1288
01:02:20,769 --> 01:02:21,729
So cool, cool, cool, cool.

1289
01:02:21,899 --> 01:02:22,769
this has been a lot of fun.

1290
01:02:22,829 --> 01:02:24,469
I, are you making any videos?

1291
01:02:24,499 --> 01:02:26,499
Are there, or are you just doing
blog posts and newsletters?

1292
01:02:26,559 --> 01:02:26,939
It's just brianchristner.io.

1293
01:02:28,979 --> 01:02:33,009
I'm writing like a weekly roundup
of what's going on in the world of

1294
01:02:33,029 --> 01:02:38,439
AI at the moment and just quick and
dirty, you know, and I'm starting

1295
01:02:38,439 --> 01:02:40,159
again to just do my Byte Podcast.

1296
01:02:40,699 --> 01:02:44,579
You remember a long time ago I was doing
like just Two to five minute videos.

1297
01:02:44,639 --> 01:02:45,219
What is OpenClaw?

1298
01:02:45,819 --> 01:02:46,629
What is that?

1299
01:02:46,669 --> 01:02:50,179
And just kind of highlighting some
of the stuff we discussed today,

1300
01:02:50,179 --> 01:02:52,169
but in a short, shortened version.

1301
01:02:52,669 --> 01:02:57,399
Yeah, I do, I do read your, you're
one of the few emails that I read

1302
01:02:57,449 --> 01:03:01,149
consistently because it's short and
sweet and covers all the big hits.

1303
01:03:01,549 --> 01:03:06,299
So if I was too busy to like pay
attention to Hacker News or, you

1304
01:03:06,299 --> 01:03:10,299
know, register headlines or whatever,
like your email's a good summary.

1305
01:03:10,379 --> 01:03:12,329
And and yeah, I mean,
and it costs nothing.

1306
01:03:12,439 --> 01:03:13,369
So thank you.

1307
01:03:13,489 --> 01:03:13,779
It costs

1308
01:03:13,779 --> 01:03:14,069
nothing.

1309
01:03:14,129 --> 01:03:14,719
I'm not charging.

1310
01:03:15,219 --> 01:03:15,799
All right.

1311
01:03:15,849 --> 01:03:17,119
Thank you so much for being here, Brian.

1312
01:03:17,289 --> 01:03:22,229
As always we run long and we got
up, we waited too long to have

1313
01:03:22,229 --> 01:03:23,449
this, we got to have you back soon.

1314
01:03:23,549 --> 01:03:27,019
And I'm excited to hear what you're doing
with agents here in the near future.

1315
01:03:27,519 --> 01:03:27,929
That's great.

1316
01:03:27,929 --> 01:03:29,149
Thank you very much for having me, Bret.

1317
01:03:29,699 --> 01:03:30,719
Hey, thanks for joining.

1318
01:03:30,929 --> 01:03:31,889
We'll see you in the next episode.