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Welcome to the With All Your Mind Podcast.
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The podcast that exists as a resource and part of the Ministry of Commonplace Church, the Mental Health Ministry.
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If you'd like to learn more about the church or about the ministry itself, visit us at commonplacechurch.org.
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Open to a good conversation.
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Hello and welcome to With All Your Mind.
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We're Dr.
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F.
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Rodriguez.
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Yeah, it's been a while.
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Life gets busy, man.
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Life gets busy.
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It really has been kind of nuts.
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Um, but we're back.
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We've got uh Dr.
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Mark McNear here with us and Pastor Kirger Rubrecht.
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Uh today we're gonna be discussing a hit television series that aired from the late 80s to the early 90s.
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Now, this is a series that also made a comeback in um big screen form back in 2012 with a follow-up a few years later.
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The series originally was a drama, though, the original series, but it moved more into comedy with the movies.
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And the premise of the series, it it basically focused on a group of undercover police officers, and their assignment was to focus on criminal activity taking place in the high schools.
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Do you guys know what I'm talking about?
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Have you guessed what this series is, fellow millennials and excellence and all the other annials?
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I know what it is.
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You know what it is.
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Yeah, it's uh good old 21 Jump Street.
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Yes, yeah, that was uh down down jump street.
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That was the theme.
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I know 80s themes, I'm saying.
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Yeah, no, no, no.
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I love that.
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It's it's I feel like a lot of songs can take me back to a specific moment, but television themed songs, most of all.
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Yeah, I can tell you exactly.
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Yeah, yep.
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It's crazy.
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So uh this was Johnny Depp's big uh career takeoff moment, and um, and then in the newer movies in the 2010s, uh Channing Tatum and Jonah Hill were in those.
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Do you guys remember what they called these guys?
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The term that they used to describe these police officers at the schools?
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Kirk Kirk's got a big smile.
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He knows yeah, narc.
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Yeah, okay.
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Yep.
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Yeah, they were uh narcs, which is short for narcotics agents.
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And of course, narcs aren't just sent into the school systems normally, but this group of narcs, they ran into different opportunities to bring about justice in the school system.
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So um the key to being successful as a narc was fitting in.
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Um, and in this case, you had to fit in as a high school student.
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It reminds me of the um, is it Steve Buscemi with the hello fellow kid alive?
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He's clearly 50 years old, and it's great.
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You got the backwards hat and the skateboard, and it's it's funny because I mean it started back in the 80s, but I think especially throughout the trunk the 2010s, you had these much older actors playing high school, they were like 24, 25, 26, and they're like, I'm 16.
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I remember 902 and oh is one of those.
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Yeah, all the people in the cats were like 40.
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And they're like, dude, you got a full beard, like, there's no way you're in high school.
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Is that a mortgage in your back pocket?
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Like, what are you doing here?
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But uh, well, if Johnny Depp had come to our high school, I am pretty sure that his 30-year-old self would have been noticed immediately.
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Um, but in the show, in the magic of television, uh, these guys did a pretty good job of playing the part of teenagers.
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So they had to adjust themselves to the environment that they encountered, and they did that, they adapted their surroundings.
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So that stirs up that regularly asked question on our podcast.
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How in the world does this tie into the mental health conversation?
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Um, that's a good question.
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Um adjusting to an environment is a reality when it comes to a mental health journeys, right?
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And one space where this adaptation, this adjustment is often found is uh not when dealing with a narc, but rather dealing with a narcissist.
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That that worked.
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That worked.
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We got there.
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It was a long journey.
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Um not bad.
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No, right?
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It took a stroll.
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It's not about the destination, right?
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It's about the journey.
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That's right.
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Yeah.
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So today we're kicking off a set of conversations where we're going to explore some of the different presentations of people that we encounter in our lives.
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And the uh we're gonna explore that space of neurodivergence, which is a term used to describe people whose brains function, learn, and process information differently than what is considered typical, or um, at times couldn't be referred to, this can be referred to as personality disorders.
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Um, the topic of conversation today is exploring what is a narcissist or NPD narcissist personality disorder.
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Um, I'm gonna throw it right over to you, Mark.
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Talk to us about this stuff.
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First of all, let's explore neurodivergency.
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Why are you throwing it to Mark?
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You feel like he's he's narcissistic.
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Well, I mean, in the car he was saying, that's why.
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In the car he was saying, do you want to talk about me or should Kirk talk about me or should I talk about it?
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Kirk's gonna be talking about me.
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So actually, we were we were joking around, we were saying that the the conversation with a narcissist often is you know, Kirk, do you want to talk about me or do you want me to talk about me?
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Yeah, and if you want to start first, you talk about me.
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When you're done, I'll start talking about me.
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And then once I'm done, Walter, you can pick up.
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Sure, yeah, so so we talk about narcissism, and it's so misunderstood.
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This whole idea, you know, the whole TikTok and Instagram, which we've talked about, gives that idea.
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Thanks, Walter, for changing that mind.
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You know, it's all about you, Mark.
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It's all about you.
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It is dedicated to you.
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That idea that everyone now, if they cross somebody's path, they're a narcissist.
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Yeah, you know, it's kind of like, oh, I can't believe it.
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My kid did this, they're such a narcissist.
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Or like, my husband didn't close, oh, he's such a narcissist, or my wife did this.
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She's you know, and so let's let's talk about the severity of narcissism.
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We're talking about this really in-depth uh issue with a person's personality in which people have been really impaired deeply.
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And we're gonna we're gonna talk about that, but that you know, so much so that it it almost becomes, and I don't agree totally with with the field of psychology with this, it doesn't become part of their personality, it's just so prevalent that it looks like it's part of their personality.
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Yeah, there's almost like a rewiring that takes place.
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Yeah.
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And so I'm gonna ask you guys what causes it?
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What do you think causes it?
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And then I'll I'll talk about what the field has found recently compared to what they did say caused it.
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I I mean, I would say uh based on trauma mostly, right?
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Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
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There's been some neglect or rejection or deep war.
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Yeah, severe because not being noticed or being recognized, there's almost an overcompensation that takes place.
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Yeah, it absolutely, you're right on it.
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I think that in the past we've talked about the fact that you know people were born as narcissists and or uh borderline personality disorder, which I think we're gonna talk about some of those things, but you know, they're not born that way.
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It it's from environment and it's a huge impingement on the person where they've had extreme deprivation, extreme abuse, extreme neglect, and and what we're talking about there is complex trauma.
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They have just had a series of uh issues in their lives where they have gotten to the point where they say, you know what, nobody really loves me, and so I'm gonna have to take that job on myself, and I'm going to prove my validation by talking about myself all the time, putting myself first, thinking that I'm special, you know, thinking that people envy me.
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You know, that's some of the characteristics of it.
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Yeah, I remember growing up, I used to think it was the opposite.
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I used to think they'd been so spoiled.
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People had been paying so much attention to them that they're they felt entitled to to have that behavior from everyone all the time.
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And it's only as I've gotten older and really started uh to dig into the mental health world that I realize it's the exact opposite.
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Yeah, people will say, Oh, a person's so arrogant, but the backdrop or behind the scenes, they feel so insignificant, they sit feel so insecure, so out of control that they need to control everything and they need to put forth this this persona that they're much better than real life would allow.
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Yeah.
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That's it, that's good.
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Yeah.
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I'm gonna read some of the uh definition here.
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So uh NPD, narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition characterized by a long-term pattern of grandiosity, an intense need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.
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People with NPD often exhibit entitlement, exploit others, and hold exaggerated beliefs about their own importance, despite often masking deep insecurity.
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I am reading this, and there are definitely famous people that are coming to mind.
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Elon Musk was the first name that popped into my mind as I'm reading this, right?
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And so um hopefully he doesn't listen to the show.
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I'm sure he this is.
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Well, he probably said his name.
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He's got yes.
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This is all he does in his spare time is listen to with all your mind.
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Um so are there things we're gonna be talking about all these um these different atypical, well, it's neurodivergence, right?
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Things that are atypical to whatever atypical mind is supposed to look like, um, whatever that means.
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But are there are these things when you're watching television, Mark, um, are there celebrities or people where you're like, oh, that's this, or that's probably that, or like like patterns you can recognize from afar, right?
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That it's so uh uh uh apparent.
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Yeah, and I think I think that there's different types of narcissism too.
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There's like likable narcissists, and then there's people that are really like malignant narcissists who treat people really poorly and take advantage of people.
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Yeah, and so like if you've met one narcissist, you've met one narcissist, right?
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It's not like everybody's the same, and that's one of the problems with the mental health field, is we we sometimes develop these cookie cutters where we look at everybody the same, but that's a great question, Walter.
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I think that a lot of really successful people are, or at least have, narcissistic tendencies, you know, and and so they're very, very driven, they're very responsive to other people in a lot of ways.
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Unfortunately, a lot of times they take advantage of other people.
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A lot of times you see that in politics.
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Yeah, I was gonna say you also see it in the church, yeah.
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You see some of the most like charismatic, yeah, like and they're likable, right?
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That's why they people are following.
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Yeah, Chuck DeGro wrote the book.
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Oh, yeah, yeah.
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When narcissists, yeah, when narcissists come to church, and so yeah, I I I think that we can't throw the baby out with the bath water.
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There's a lot of good characteristics with it, right?
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It's just that it goes so extreme and becomes problematic when people start taking advantage of other people, yeah.
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Right, yeah, that's good.
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Yeah, that's really, really good.
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So, do you guys personally have any experience?
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I mean, Mark, this is your job.
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I'm gonna go to Kirk with this one.
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I think confidentiality, I don't think he's allowed to share.
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Yeah, yeah.
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Well, if he could say yes or no that he's had an experience with it, but I'm gonna direct it at you.
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Kirk, do you have any experience with this type of personality in your life?
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Have you encountered people that have exhibited some of these characteristics?
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I definitely have.
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Uh yes, I have.
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I've yes, there's been people in my uh family extended unit who have exhibited these behaviors.
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Yeah.
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So I'm yes, for I've run into quite a few when when people uh I'll give you this as a a picture.
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There's when people come into counseling and when somebody usually spends the majority of time talking about one person, it's because the person has a personality disorder, they kind of fill the room.
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And so a lot of times narcissistic individuals, if it's pretty extreme, they never darken the door, but people who are around them end up coming in because of the harm that it causes.
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Right.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I can see that.
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I mean, I'm just thinking in our friendship, um, I'm struggling with there's a a person related to a project at work and textbook.
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Um, in fact, I was speaking about um, I was speaking to a friend of mine about the difficulty in dealing with this person.
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She's like, all you have to do is constantly just tell him how great he is and praise him.
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And and I was like, I don't have time to do any of that.
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I just um and uh I I found the same thing, right?
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So this small, very small corner of my life, somebody that I that has no reason for me to ever be on my mind ends up taking so much space in the things that I have to do because managing of it becomes a major thing.
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That phrase that you use that takes up so much space, yeah.
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That's what people with personality disorders or or people that we would view, and I don't even like that like terminology, but you know, for the sake of being able to explain it, you know, these people that it's like part of the woodwork to a point, you know, with them some of these behaviors, you know, it takes up so much of our space because there's a lot of maintenance that goes on.
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And again, remember, it's not because they're so competent, yeah, it's because there are such deficits there.
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Yeah.
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It's overcompensation.
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Yeah, I love that word you use maintenance, right?
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That's what it feels like.
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It's like there's so much needed just to keep to make things work with that person around or that type of person around.
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Um and so I'm glad I'm glad we're gonna spend some weeks going into um all of these different types of of personality disorders or neurodivergences.
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Um, because I think it's important.
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I think we run across things all the time where we might not even understand what's going on.
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We just know like there's something different about this person and I I feel uncomfortable, I don't know how to wrap my head around them.
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Yeah, I think the goal too is is awareness more than like, hey, we want you to go out and diagnose people.
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Right, right, right.
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That's not what we were hoping to do.
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Yeah, like I told you mine, you know, this was he was an artist.
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Like, that's not the goal, it's more of just awareness.
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Um and how do we I don't like the word manage, but I don't know, how do we exist within?
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Yeah, you know, um well, how do we manage our own emotions?
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Well, that's I was gonna say it's not managing that's good managing, yeah.
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I think it's that idea that how do we realize that individuals at times, anyone, can be really triggering for us.
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We're not responsible for their behaviors, but we are responsible for our own reactions and our own responses, exactly.
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And so I think that that's a healthier discussion because there's like at times being around somebody who has some of these characteristics, it can be enraging.
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Yeah.
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I love that.
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Yeah, that's I mean that's that's my therapy journey has been that it's like how learning not how I can control but how I can respond.
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Yeah.
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What's in with what's within my control.
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Yeah.
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That's been really helpful.
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And and I think it's it's important to realize that our job is to set limits and boundaries and to also realize that when people have had such extreme deprivation, when they've had such extreme harm, that they're not particularly good at accepting you know, boundaries and limits.
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And and let me say this for people, I want people to hear this.
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That idea that boundaries and limits is not one and done.
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Right.
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It is continual.
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I had a therapist that once said to me, it's kind of like a skip on a record that you have to keep repeating this stuff over and over and over because they don't hear.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Well, and tying back to that, because it that ties into my answer to this question.
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But what kind of feelings come up for you guys when you're dealing with someone who's a narcissist?
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I know you said enraging, right?
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So I think I've my feelings have gr like grown with the more awareness I've had of circumstance, right?
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Where at first it was a lot of frustration, but I think a lot now is a little more compassion and like consideration of that person's of why they are you know acting in this this manner.
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Not that I'm in agreement or I'm like rooting for it, but just more discovery of that and seeing that and just trying to hold that, you know, place.
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Yeah, that makes sense.
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So mine tie into this the boundary thing, right?
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Um exhaustion, just deep frustration and exhaustion.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:40.639
Um, because we I and find uh I find that I end up having to keep redrawing those boundary lines and going back like, hey, no, no, this is not okay.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.080
And after a while, it's just it just sucks all the energy out of me.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.000
So that's I'm with you on that too.
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:47.120
That's that's part of it too.
00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:56.799
But yeah, often there's frustration because we have an expectation that somebody's gonna get something because it seems so clear to us, yeah.
00:16:57.919 --> 00:16:58.799
But they don't get it.
00:16:59.039 --> 00:16:59.279
Yeah.
00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:01.440
Yeah, that's so true.
00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.039
Um, so what kind of actions do you take based on those feelings?
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.319
Uh like I was talking about frustration, you were talking about rage.
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:10.559
Um, empathy was Kirk's answer.
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:13.839
So what what do we do when we're feeling that way around these people?
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:18.160
That's a good question.
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:23.200
Yeah, it's uh I think it's so dependent on the level of relationship that you have with that person.
00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:23.920
That's true.
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:24.559
Right.
00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:34.000
If this is someone you live with or whatever, it's gonna be very different from someone you just see, maybe see at work and get to get to go home and not have to deal with it, you know.
00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:36.480
So um yeah, I don't know.
00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:37.440
That's a good question.
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:43.759
You know, I I was talking with Tim Fletcher because he he does a lot of expert on narcissism.
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:46.240
He has so many good things he talks about.
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:59.680
One of the things he talks about that's a trap for people who are in relationships, uh closer relationships with someone who has personality disorders, especially narcissism, is the tendency to threaten them.
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:05.119
You know, if you do that again, I'm going to, you know, fill in the blank.
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:11.200
He says the worst thing you can do unless you're willing to fulfill the threat.
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:11.680
Yeah.
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:14.400
Empty threats is not gonna work.
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:19.200
No, it's it's just gonna continue to to uh perpetuate the cycle.
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:30.559
Well, because it from this particular disorder or or behavior, whatever you want to say, there there is almost a high threat level, and that's where the overcompensation comes in, right?
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:31.039
Already.
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:31.359
Yeah.
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:36.640
It's like it's already like needing to be validated, needed to be recognized.
00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:38.720
And so there's already that threat that they have.
00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:50.400
So adding additional threats probably just you know creates a different another cycle of plus you if you're if you're gonna bluff, you get disarmed pretty quickly.
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:58.319
Like if you try to bluff and and you don't go through with it, and that's kind of the end of that's you've spent all of your ammunition, there's nothing else.
00:18:58.480 --> 00:18:58.559
Yeah.
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:03.119
So now that you know they can continue to walk on you, walk all over you because nothing's gonna happen.
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:10.319
So I I think that being aware that there's going to be certain emotions that come up.
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:16.960
And I I love what Kirk talks about getting to the point where you can feel some compassion, and that's like that's a long journey.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:36.960
Yeah, and and and and wonderful because that takes a lot of ego strength to be able to be like, listen, this is their stuff and not allow it to merge with with you because they're very good at merging their ego with you, and kind of it's kind of like did you ever see the movie The Blob?
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:38.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:56.160
Well, that's like a narcissist, you know, in in a in a in a way, you know, symbolically, that they just suck the life out of people they're around because they don't feel good about themselves, and so they just envelop you and little by little take over your life if you allow it.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:19:59.599
It's a horror movie, folks.
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:05.200
So uh let's take a little time and explore this space of narcissism.
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.359
Uh, does anybody know when this particular personality disorder was classified?
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:12.480
Anyone have any idea?
00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:14.880
Well, the Greek myth, yeah.
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:22.960
Narcissist that that's where it comes from, where he looked into a pond and he fell ma he fell madly in love with himself.
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:23.440
Yeah.
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:27.359
And then couldn't think about anybody else but himself.
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:35.839
And and I should say too, when you look, certain disorders are more prevalent with males and females, and this one is one for males.
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:43.839
You know, so if you're going back to the Greek myth, that's that's where where it points.
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:56.319
It also was it was toyed around with different psychologists and different doctors in the 1800s that talked about this you know propensity that people had to just think about themselves to to look for special.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:57.359
Yeah, you know.
00:20:58.079 --> 00:20:59.599
Yeah, the the vanity piece, right?
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:07.039
Yeah, it's it's I mean the Bible talks a lot about that, but you know, not it's the unhealthy love of self, right?
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:22.079
It's not that there shouldn't be a appreciation and love of of creation image bearing, but it's the unhealthy version of it that I think so it's been around for a long time, I guess if the Bible speaks into it, but yeah, um, but officially diagnosed, I have no idea.
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:22.880
Mark would probably know.
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:24.000
Mark was actually right.
00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:36.640
So the 1800s is when it was really first talked about um as something different and very uh varying from the normal, and 1980 is when it was first put into the third edition of the DSM.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:37.200
Yeah.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:39.599
So the 1980, a year before I was born.
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:41.279
So narcissists are older than I am.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:46.640
And and one of the one of the things one of the things, yeah, years later.
00:21:47.440 --> 00:22:03.119
But but one of the things that the American Psychiatric Association did, and and early training for me, I definitely learned this and I don't think it's accurate, is that People can't change who have personality disorders.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.279
And I've seen that proven wrong time and time and time again.
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.920
I think that the approaches were wrong.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.839
And so psychology said, well, this just isn't working.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:16.000
So they must not be able to be changed.
00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:16.319
Yeah.
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:17.519
And that's not accurate.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:24.000
You know, we we see that borderline personality disorder, which I'd love to dive into in another week.
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:24.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:31.119
You know, that that idea that uh somebody with borderline, you know, just couldn't be couldn't change.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.640
That's not true what they have found.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.599
Marsha Lenahan uh came up with Dr.
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:37.599
Marsha Lenahan had it.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:51.119
And so she came up with this whole program, genius, came up with this whole program, DBT, and and found a way of like kind of merging a lot of this, you know, black and white thinking, things like that.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:52.319
And we'll talk about that.
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:58.160
But that idea, I just want to say that people can't change is is just not accurate and not scriptural.
00:22:58.319 --> 00:22:58.640
Yeah, I agree.
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:00.160
But it doesn't mean that it's easy.
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:02.160
Yes, that's a good catalyst.
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:04.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:06.880
Um, so let's talk about that, right?
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.039
So BPD can be managed uh or or changed.
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:12.799
Uh, how do you manage narcissism?
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:13.680
Can you treat it?
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:14.720
What what does that look like?
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:31.680
Well, I think for narcissism, and I was talking to Tim about this, that idea that that people have to paint themselves into a corner with their behaviors and get to the point where they're so desperate that they're willing to do pretty much anything.
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:34.079
And I think that I think that's a good picture of all of us.
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:40.000
Yeah, you know, we don't we're not real willing and gung ho to change behaviors until you know it kind of hurts.
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:40.400
Yeah.
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:49.279
And so when that comes about, when there is some harm to the ego, people are more willing or amenable to change.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:50.079
Yeah.
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:59.680
I wonder though, if it in those moments, if they're met with compassion and kindness, if that really brings a a bigger healing, right?
00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:10.720
Than if they're met with I don't know, content or just like Yeah, and I and I think that we've talked about this, Kirk, that idea of recovery for people who have addictions.
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:19.599
You know, there's been a harshness within the community, and and that's the last thing that people with uh behaviors of addiction need.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.160
They need yeah, because think about it, if it's shame, that that's at the core, right?
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:27.519
And they're receiving shame after they've come to this discovery.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:29.519
Is that the is that the antidote?
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:30.240
You know, I don't know.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:31.759
Absolutely not.
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:34.960
I think that people need kindness, they need gentleness.
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:42.720
Uh I think that for the narcissist, they need to have very clear boundaries and limits.
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:44.319
Yeah.
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.079
Sense of security too, maybe?
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:46.880
Absolutely.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:48.400
Yeah, all of the things.
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:55.200
If you can replicate what they didn't have in childhood, there's a hope that there's gonna be some movement toward change.
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:55.680
Yeah.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.559
Right.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:11.279
So if we have these type of people in our lives, we have narcissists in our lives, what are some and and again, I think kind of boiling down what you were saying is people everyone needs to come to the place where they they're ready to change.
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.680
Um, they're willing to do what it takes to change.
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:18.240
Um, so if that person in your life isn't there yet, how do we interact with them?
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.160
How do we manage, maybe we can't manage them, how do we manage ourselves?
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:25.200
What are some some strategies that we can employ to protect ourselves?
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:32.720
And well, I think I think that one of the things we have to do is we have to regulate ourselves emotionally because we'll go on a roller coaster otherwise.
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:40.640
I think also that there's there's what I have seen is in families, there's usually a narcissist and then a co-narcissist.
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:47.200
There is the husband who has a lot of shame, but then there's the wife who has a lot of shame.
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:56.960
So she allows a lot of the things to go on and and doesn't feel good enough within herself to be like, no, no, no, I can't do this anymore.
00:25:57.200 --> 00:25:57.599
Yeah.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:25:58.240
Yeah.
00:25:59.119 --> 00:25:59.680
What's this?
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:02.480
So I remember from therapy the idea of gray rock.
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:03.279
Is it gray rocking?
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:04.160
Or gray rock?
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.680
What is I can't remember which is exactly no no no gray rocking, yeah.
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:08.880
You're absolutely right.
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:16.880
That whole idea of being able to stay neutral in in very explosive, emotionally explosive situations.
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:24.240
Um, a lot of times narcissists count on people feeding off of their outrageous statements.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:24.480
Right.
00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:28.880
They make narcissists make outrageous statements.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:29.359
Yeah, sure.
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:31.200
And they just wait for the reaction.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:35.359
If they're not getting the reaction, yeah, it dissipates after a while.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:35.680
Yeah.
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:37.119
So that's great rocking.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:37.599
Yeah.
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:45.440
I was picturing the Rolling Stones, just dudes all in gray, gray hair, rocking hands, those guys are currently good rocking hands for sure.
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:45.680
Okay.
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:47.039
Just learn something new.
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.680
It's not a rock term, ladies and gentlemen.
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.400
Thank you for coming to with all your minds.
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:54.000
Glad we can help.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:27:00.319
So I was talking about if you live some with someone that has narcissism where you're around them, you're related to them.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:02.240
Um, but what about if it's the other way around?
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:05.920
What if you find yourself exhibiting some of these characteristics of narcissism?
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:07.119
Where do you go for help?
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:08.319
How do you ask for help?
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:10.400
What is it that you're asking for?
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:12.240
Such a good question.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:13.519
That's a really loaded question.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.720
Because how do you know if I don't I don't know.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:17.359
I'm just sorry.
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:17.920
I'm just pressed.
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:18.960
Let's let's say this.
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:24.880
I think that for all of us, we've all had deprivation, we've all had abuse, we've all had harm.
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:33.200
So, what happens if we put narcissism on a continuum and we say that we all have a tendency toward it?
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:39.680
Yeah, some very some in very minor ways, some in very extreme ways.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:40.000
Yeah.
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:53.119
So I I I think that you know, scripture gives, of course, the the antidote, you know, to love yourself, to love your neighbor and to love God.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:28:03.440
You know, and and and so there's a lot of people within Christianom that shy away from that idea of self-love because it's like, oh no, no, no, you'll be self-centered.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:04.799
It's gonna cause pride.
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:07.839
Yeah, yeah, and and pride causes narcissism.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:17.599
So if somebody thinks they they have some issues with narcissism, why not, you know, talk to somebody about it?
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:21.039
Ask them, you know, do you see those characteristics in me?
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:25.680
Find somebody safe to talk to, yeah, and maybe even a counselor.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:26.720
Yeah.
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:38.000
And this is something I've we've talked to the teens about um in uh youth group here, but um, is attention seeking strictly a negative thing?
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:45.920
And we've we've had long discussions on this with them uh to kind of see where their heads at and maybe point out some things.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:46.799
But what do you guys think?
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.599
Oh Kirk Kirk Thompson, Dr.
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:58.000
Kirk Thompson talks about the fact that an individual, when born, comes out of the womb looking for people to look for them.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:01.200
So I don't think there's anything wrong with attention.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:03.200
Again, we're talking about extremes.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:03.759
Right, right.
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:09.839
You know, if somebody gets up in the morning and their number one goal is how much attention can I get for myself today?
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:11.039
Yeah, that's a problem.
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.200
Yeah, yeah, because I think attention is based on the design of connection.
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:23.759
And if we're designed to be connected to one another and we're not connected or not receiving that, then I don't think seeking the attention is a negative.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:24.079
Right.
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:27.200
Like Mark said, the level of it could be the challenge.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.759
The other thing we're talking about developmental phases, sure.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:35.519
You know, the the two-year-old is pretty self-absorbed and wants attention.
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:35.759
Right.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:37.839
And I think it's developmentally correct.
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:38.079
Right.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.839
And if they don't get that attention, then narcissism begins to grow.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:42.240
Right.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:45.440
For a teen, teens are much like two-year-olds.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:50.799
Yes, so it's it's okay for them to want to explore and to get attention.
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:51.519
Yeah.
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:57.920
Well, and it's yeah, it's like part of the human experience of like meaning and like what is my purpose?
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:06.720
What is my meaning like when you're not given necessarily be given that you're gonna seek that out in different ways and could be unhealthy, could be healthy, you know.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:09.440
I think it's Genesis that says that he's a God who sees.
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:09.759
Sure.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:11.039
And who is he seeing?
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:14.799
He's seeing us, and he knows that that's really important for us to be seen.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:15.039
Yeah.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:27.119
I was actually just gonna say that one of the one of my favorite things about language in newer generations is that a few years ago, quite probably a decade now, but that I that language started to shift to that.
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:35.119
Like I feel seen, I want to be seen, and it really is apt-wording to describe what it is that you're looking for.
00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:40.559
You want somebody to acknowledge you, to to know that you exist, to value your worth.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:47.279
Um and not only so they can see it, but so that you feel that.
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:51.440
Um, and so yeah, I think it's it's a a basic human need.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:53.519
I think so often we malign it.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:58.960
Yeah, and I and I think the difficulty in conversations like this is we want a formula.
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:04.720
And, you know, like I said earlier, if you've met one narcissist, you've met one narcissist.
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:13.839
And so I think everybody, there's there's patterns and there's things to look at, but there needs to be an individualized plan for each marriage.
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:26.559
If there, if there's a situation where somebody feels like their husband is, let's say, a narcissist, and then there needs to be, you know, an evaluation of that particular situation and not just one size fits all.
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:26.880
Yeah.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:33.839
Yeah, I think I think the the result of the fall created insecurity and stability, right?
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:41.440
So I think the human condition now exists with a desire for security, and that's even why we have like secure attachment and things like that at the developmental stage.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:48.559
So I think that is part of the longing that we have as humans is like, is this secure?
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:49.599
Am I secure?
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:50.720
Is this relationship secure?
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:53.279
Is this, you know, will I be rejected?
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:57.279
I think that's just this continuum that we think we, you know, I have it.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:02.799
I've I've you know, I I still have insecurities that I'm when I get to a situation, is this safe?
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.519
Is this secure?
00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:11.519
You know, yeah, you know, that that idea that you text someone and they don't text you back, and then you say, is everything all right?
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:14.240
And you don't hear from them, and you know where your mind goes.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.400
It goes to 14,000, at least mine does.
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:18.240
Yep to like, what did I do wrong?
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.240
Yeah, you know, so you're absolutely right.
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:24.640
That that idea of insecurity is born in us from the fall.
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:25.440
Yeah.
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:46.240
And I want to go through um, we've got a list here of some of these characteristics, so that just feeling confident or um even occasionally being a little selfish and being like, hey, I need to focus on me this week or this, you know, today because I'm having a rough day or whatever, doesn't equal narcissism.
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:46.400
Right.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:48.319
So I'm gonna read through some of these characteristics.
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:56.559
And if if there are many of these seen in the person, or if the stuff that like this is repeated constantly, then there's a much higher chance that that might be it.
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:57.519
That's really good.
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:09.839
You know, that idea of the prevalence, yeah, you know, uh uh how often you see it and how extreme it is, is how you look at a particular issue to see if it is a real problem or not.
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:10.799
Right, right.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:28.079
So I've got a grandiose sense of self-importance, like I'm the exception to the rule, um, a deep need for admiration and validation, a lack of empathy, difficulty truly seeing or valuing others' feelings, a tendency to exploit relationships for personal gain, fragile self-esteem underneath it all.
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:42.720
So criticism hits hard even if it doesn't seem like it does on the surface, entitlement, expecting special treatment without necessarily reciprocating, and uh one of the biggest tensions on the outside, all of this can look like confidence, but underneath it's actually insecurity that's driving the behavior.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:50.799
So even if it seems like this person is moving through the world full of confidence and not needing all of this stuff, um, that's really what's driving it.
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:51.680
The driver's the opposite.
00:33:52.079 --> 00:34:04.480
It makes me think of the Wizard of Oz, you know, where he is sitting there and you see the wizard, yeah, and you see this you and then you hear, you know, him say to them, you know, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:04.799
Yeah.
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.200
I think that looks a lot like narcissism.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:15.039
There's this big grandiose show put on, but then behind the scenes is this insecure person that's like, pay no attention to me.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:15.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:17.119
That's not me.
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:17.599
Yep.
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.800
This show when you peel back the layers of the onion, you see that.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:22.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:24.239
This is actually really good.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:33.840
I think what you were saying, Kirk, uh, the idea of being able to understand and recognize and be aware of um these things, I think that's really the goal with us going into this series.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.480
Um, because I think everybody's got questions.
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:39.440
I think um, what do they call it?
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:46.239
Uh mental health TikTok um is uh a lot of people are saying a lot of things.
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:47.840
Most of it is inaccurate.
00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:53.760
There's a lot of people throwing the word narcissist and narcissism around, like you mentioned, Mark, who have no idea what it means.
00:34:54.000 --> 00:35:03.440
Um, and there are probably people out there that are afraid that they might be something because somebody once called them a narcissist, so they might be freaking out and trying to read about it.
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:07.440
And um, you know, if you are worried about it, please see somebody.
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:17.440
You know, if this is something, if if what I was reading, that list of things keeps coming up and and you're hearing from other people that this might be, then there is help, there's hope, it's not like the end of the world for you.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:33.119
Um, and on the other hand, if you're if that reminds you of somebody that you are of that list of things, somebody that you're struggling with, somebody that you're having a hard time with, um, maybe dig into it a little more um and try to look at ways that you can try to manage the situation, manage your own um feelings around that person.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:39.920
Like we said, talk about boundaries and yeah, and sometimes people need support and they need some insight and how to deal with that.
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:41.599
Yeah, exactly.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:55.280
Yeah, and one of the things that's really important to keep in mind here is a lot of times we fall into, and this is a common trap with all kinds of um uh mental disorders when you're around somebody that's that's got a personality disorder and it's tough.
00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:04.880
People say, if I just adjust enough, if I try harder, maybe I can make this relationship work, if I just if I can do better, if I I would were more for this person.
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:07.519
And that is a really dangerous place to be.
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:11.280
Um, because so it it sometimes isn't about you.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:16.320
It doesn't matter what you do, there's something going on outside of yourself and you can only control so much of that.
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:21.360
Yeah, and often they talk about it being a chasm, you know, there's just this deep chasm.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:25.280
Yeah, and then no matter what you do, there's not enough to fill that chasm.
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:27.440
Yeah, that's so good.
00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:30.559
Yeah, that's where codependency challenges come in.
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:31.840
Absolutely.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:36.159
And we're gonna be diving deeper and deeper into this stuff in the the coming week.
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:37.920
So just thanks so much.
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:38.960
Thank you for joining us.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:44.320
Um, we've got a whole bunch of other things that are difficult to talk and start and deal with.
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:52.320
So if you're into it, if you want to dig into some of these things that aren't really explored or explained as much, um, please just keep tuning in.
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.840
We'd love to have you if you have if you have questions or any ideas for episodes too.
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:56.559
We'd love to hear it.
00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:00.559
Kirk and Mark, as always, thank you so much for your friendship, for your love, for being here.
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:02.480
Um, thanks to everybody that's listening.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:03.440
We appreciate you.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:04.639
So thank you for joining us.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:09.280
We love you, God loves you, God bless you, and we will catch you next time.
00:00:00.560 --> 00:00:02.879
Welcome to the With All Your Mind Podcast.
00:00:03.120 --> 00:00:09.839
The podcast that exists as a resource and part of the Ministry of Commonplace Church, the Mental Health Ministry.
00:00:10.000 --> 00:00:14.880
If you'd like to learn more about the church or about the ministry itself, visit us at commonplacechurch.org.
00:00:15.039 --> 00:00:16.879
Open to a good conversation.
00:00:18.399 --> 00:00:20.800
Hello and welcome to With All Your Mind.
00:00:20.960 --> 00:00:21.359
We're Dr.
00:00:21.519 --> 00:00:21.600
F.
00:00:21.760 --> 00:00:22.239
Rodriguez.
00:00:22.399 --> 00:00:23.359
Yeah, it's been a while.
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Life gets busy, man.
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Life gets busy.
00:00:26.239 --> 00:00:28.000
It really has been kind of nuts.
00:00:28.160 --> 00:00:29.039
Um, but we're back.
00:00:29.199 --> 00:00:30.000
We've got uh Dr.
00:00:30.079 --> 00:00:33.200
Mark McNear here with us and Pastor Kirger Rubrecht.
00:00:33.439 --> 00:00:39.520
Uh today we're gonna be discussing a hit television series that aired from the late 80s to the early 90s.
00:00:39.759 --> 00:00:46.560
Now, this is a series that also made a comeback in um big screen form back in 2012 with a follow-up a few years later.
00:00:46.719 --> 00:00:52.240
The series originally was a drama, though, the original series, but it moved more into comedy with the movies.
00:00:52.399 --> 00:01:02.320
And the premise of the series, it it basically focused on a group of undercover police officers, and their assignment was to focus on criminal activity taking place in the high schools.
00:01:02.640 --> 00:01:04.239
Do you guys know what I'm talking about?
00:01:04.400 --> 00:01:09.439
Have you guessed what this series is, fellow millennials and excellence and all the other annials?
00:01:11.120 --> 00:01:12.079
I know what it is.
00:01:12.239 --> 00:01:12.799
You know what it is.
00:01:13.680 --> 00:01:15.840
Yeah, it's uh good old 21 Jump Street.
00:01:16.000 --> 00:01:19.359
Yes, yeah, that was uh down down jump street.
00:01:19.519 --> 00:01:20.319
That was the theme.
00:01:20.560 --> 00:01:21.920
I know 80s themes, I'm saying.
00:01:22.239 --> 00:01:22.879
Yeah, no, no, no.
00:01:22.959 --> 00:01:23.680
I love that.
00:01:24.000 --> 00:01:29.439
It's it's I feel like a lot of songs can take me back to a specific moment, but television themed songs, most of all.
00:01:29.760 --> 00:01:30.959
Yeah, I can tell you exactly.
00:01:31.120 --> 00:01:31.760
Yeah, yep.
00:01:32.000 --> 00:01:32.959
It's crazy.
00:01:33.200 --> 00:01:43.680
So uh this was Johnny Depp's big uh career takeoff moment, and um, and then in the newer movies in the 2010s, uh Channing Tatum and Jonah Hill were in those.
00:01:43.920 --> 00:01:47.280
Do you guys remember what they called these guys?
00:01:47.680 --> 00:01:50.719
The term that they used to describe these police officers at the schools?
00:01:50.959 --> 00:01:52.879
Kirk Kirk's got a big smile.
00:01:52.959 --> 00:01:55.040
He knows yeah, narc.
00:01:55.200 --> 00:01:56.159
Yeah, okay.
00:01:56.640 --> 00:01:56.799
Yep.
00:01:57.040 --> 00:02:00.319
Yeah, they were uh narcs, which is short for narcotics agents.
00:02:00.480 --> 00:02:09.199
And of course, narcs aren't just sent into the school systems normally, but this group of narcs, they ran into different opportunities to bring about justice in the school system.
00:02:09.439 --> 00:02:14.319
So um the key to being successful as a narc was fitting in.
00:02:14.479 --> 00:02:18.080
Um, and in this case, you had to fit in as a high school student.
00:02:18.240 --> 00:02:23.439
It reminds me of the um, is it Steve Buscemi with the hello fellow kid alive?
00:02:23.599 --> 00:02:26.639
He's clearly 50 years old, and it's great.
00:02:26.719 --> 00:02:43.840
You got the backwards hat and the skateboard, and it's it's funny because I mean it started back in the 80s, but I think especially throughout the trunk the 2010s, you had these much older actors playing high school, they were like 24, 25, 26, and they're like, I'm 16.
00:02:44.159 --> 00:02:45.919
I remember 902 and oh is one of those.
00:02:46.000 --> 00:02:48.159
Yeah, all the people in the cats were like 40.
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And they're like, dude, you got a full beard, like, there's no way you're in high school.
00:02:53.360 --> 00:02:54.879
Is that a mortgage in your back pocket?
00:02:54.960 --> 00:02:56.319
Like, what are you doing here?
00:02:57.039 --> 00:03:03.280
But uh, well, if Johnny Depp had come to our high school, I am pretty sure that his 30-year-old self would have been noticed immediately.
00:03:03.439 --> 00:03:08.719
Um, but in the show, in the magic of television, uh, these guys did a pretty good job of playing the part of teenagers.
00:03:08.800 --> 00:03:14.479
So they had to adjust themselves to the environment that they encountered, and they did that, they adapted their surroundings.
00:03:14.800 --> 00:03:18.560
So that stirs up that regularly asked question on our podcast.
00:03:18.800 --> 00:03:22.800
How in the world does this tie into the mental health conversation?
00:03:23.039 --> 00:03:24.560
Um, that's a good question.
00:03:24.800 --> 00:03:30.639
Um adjusting to an environment is a reality when it comes to a mental health journeys, right?
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And one space where this adaptation, this adjustment is often found is uh not when dealing with a narc, but rather dealing with a narcissist.
00:03:41.680 --> 00:03:42.319
That that worked.
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That worked.
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We got there.
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It was a long journey.
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Um not bad.
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No, right?
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It took a stroll.
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It's not about the destination, right?
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It's about the journey.
00:03:52.879 --> 00:03:53.360
That's right.
00:03:53.599 --> 00:03:53.919
Yeah.
00:03:54.400 --> 00:04:01.439
So today we're kicking off a set of conversations where we're going to explore some of the different presentations of people that we encounter in our lives.
00:04:01.680 --> 00:04:17.839
And the uh we're gonna explore that space of neurodivergence, which is a term used to describe people whose brains function, learn, and process information differently than what is considered typical, or um, at times couldn't be referred to, this can be referred to as personality disorders.
00:04:18.000 --> 00:04:25.600
Um, the topic of conversation today is exploring what is a narcissist or NPD narcissist personality disorder.
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Um, I'm gonna throw it right over to you, Mark.
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Talk to us about this stuff.
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First of all, let's explore neurodivergency.
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Why are you throwing it to Mark?
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You feel like he's he's narcissistic.
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Well, I mean, in the car he was saying, that's why.
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In the car he was saying, do you want to talk about me or should Kirk talk about me or should I talk about it?
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Kirk's gonna be talking about me.
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So actually, we were we were joking around, we were saying that the the conversation with a narcissist often is you know, Kirk, do you want to talk about me or do you want me to talk about me?
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Yeah, and if you want to start first, you talk about me.
00:05:01.519 --> 00:05:04.160
When you're done, I'll start talking about me.
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And then once I'm done, Walter, you can pick up.
00:05:07.120 --> 00:05:12.879
Sure, yeah, so so we talk about narcissism, and it's so misunderstood.
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This whole idea, you know, the whole TikTok and Instagram, which we've talked about, gives that idea.
00:05:19.839 --> 00:05:21.920
Thanks, Walter, for changing that mind.
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You know, it's all about you, Mark.
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It's all about you.
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It is dedicated to you.
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That idea that everyone now, if they cross somebody's path, they're a narcissist.
00:05:32.959 --> 00:05:35.279
Yeah, you know, it's kind of like, oh, I can't believe it.
00:05:35.360 --> 00:05:37.279
My kid did this, they're such a narcissist.
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Or like, my husband didn't close, oh, he's such a narcissist, or my wife did this.
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She's you know, and so let's let's talk about the severity of narcissism.
00:05:48.079 --> 00:05:58.720
We're talking about this really in-depth uh issue with a person's personality in which people have been really impaired deeply.
00:05:59.040 --> 00:06:14.399
And we're gonna we're gonna talk about that, but that you know, so much so that it it almost becomes, and I don't agree totally with with the field of psychology with this, it doesn't become part of their personality, it's just so prevalent that it looks like it's part of their personality.
00:06:14.800 --> 00:06:17.519
Yeah, there's almost like a rewiring that takes place.
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Yeah.
00:06:19.519 --> 00:06:23.519
And so I'm gonna ask you guys what causes it?
00:06:23.680 --> 00:06:24.800
What do you think causes it?
00:06:24.879 --> 00:06:30.959
And then I'll I'll talk about what the field has found recently compared to what they did say caused it.
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I I mean, I would say uh based on trauma mostly, right?
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Absolutely, yeah, yeah.
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There's been some neglect or rejection or deep war.
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Yeah, severe because not being noticed or being recognized, there's almost an overcompensation that takes place.
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Yeah, it absolutely, you're right on it.
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I think that in the past we've talked about the fact that you know people were born as narcissists and or uh borderline personality disorder, which I think we're gonna talk about some of those things, but you know, they're not born that way.
00:07:02.560 --> 00:07:15.360
It it's from environment and it's a huge impingement on the person where they've had extreme deprivation, extreme abuse, extreme neglect, and and what we're talking about there is complex trauma.
00:07:15.759 --> 00:07:37.360
They have just had a series of uh issues in their lives where they have gotten to the point where they say, you know what, nobody really loves me, and so I'm gonna have to take that job on myself, and I'm going to prove my validation by talking about myself all the time, putting myself first, thinking that I'm special, you know, thinking that people envy me.
00:07:37.839 --> 00:07:40.399
You know, that's some of the characteristics of it.
00:07:40.720 --> 00:07:44.160
Yeah, I remember growing up, I used to think it was the opposite.
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I used to think they'd been so spoiled.
00:07:46.240 --> 00:07:52.800
People had been paying so much attention to them that they're they felt entitled to to have that behavior from everyone all the time.
00:07:53.040 --> 00:07:58.959
And it's only as I've gotten older and really started uh to dig into the mental health world that I realize it's the exact opposite.
00:07:59.279 --> 00:08:22.079
Yeah, people will say, Oh, a person's so arrogant, but the backdrop or behind the scenes, they feel so insignificant, they sit feel so insecure, so out of control that they need to control everything and they need to put forth this this persona that they're much better than real life would allow.
00:08:22.639 --> 00:08:22.879
Yeah.
00:08:23.120 --> 00:08:24.160
That's it, that's good.
00:08:24.319 --> 00:08:24.639
Yeah.
00:08:24.959 --> 00:08:27.600
I'm gonna read some of the uh definition here.
00:08:27.839 --> 00:08:38.080
So uh NPD, narcissistic personality disorder is a mental health condition characterized by a long-term pattern of grandiosity, an intense need for admiration, and a lack of empathy.
00:08:38.240 --> 00:08:47.279
People with NPD often exhibit entitlement, exploit others, and hold exaggerated beliefs about their own importance, despite often masking deep insecurity.
00:08:47.600 --> 00:08:53.600
I am reading this, and there are definitely famous people that are coming to mind.
00:08:53.679 --> 00:08:56.799
Elon Musk was the first name that popped into my mind as I'm reading this, right?
00:08:56.960 --> 00:09:00.000
And so um hopefully he doesn't listen to the show.
00:09:00.159 --> 00:09:01.120
I'm sure he this is.
00:09:01.360 --> 00:09:02.559
Well, he probably said his name.
00:09:02.879 --> 00:09:03.759
He's got yes.
00:09:04.159 --> 00:09:07.679
This is all he does in his spare time is listen to with all your mind.
00:09:08.159 --> 00:09:16.240
Um so are there things we're gonna be talking about all these um these different atypical, well, it's neurodivergence, right?
00:09:16.320 --> 00:09:21.840
Things that are atypical to whatever atypical mind is supposed to look like, um, whatever that means.
00:09:22.159 --> 00:09:35.519
But are there are these things when you're watching television, Mark, um, are there celebrities or people where you're like, oh, that's this, or that's probably that, or like like patterns you can recognize from afar, right?
00:09:35.679 --> 00:09:37.840
That it's so uh uh uh apparent.
00:09:38.080 --> 00:09:41.759
Yeah, and I think I think that there's different types of narcissism too.
00:09:41.840 --> 00:09:50.080
There's like likable narcissists, and then there's people that are really like malignant narcissists who treat people really poorly and take advantage of people.
00:09:50.240 --> 00:09:55.200
Yeah, and so like if you've met one narcissist, you've met one narcissist, right?
00:09:55.440 --> 00:10:05.360
It's not like everybody's the same, and that's one of the problems with the mental health field, is we we sometimes develop these cookie cutters where we look at everybody the same, but that's a great question, Walter.
00:10:05.440 --> 00:10:20.080
I think that a lot of really successful people are, or at least have, narcissistic tendencies, you know, and and so they're very, very driven, they're very responsive to other people in a lot of ways.
00:10:20.320 --> 00:10:22.799
Unfortunately, a lot of times they take advantage of other people.
00:10:22.879 --> 00:10:24.799
A lot of times you see that in politics.
00:10:24.960 --> 00:10:28.000
Yeah, I was gonna say you also see it in the church, yeah.
00:10:28.639 --> 00:10:32.320
You see some of the most like charismatic, yeah, like and they're likable, right?
00:10:32.480 --> 00:10:34.240
That's why they people are following.
00:10:34.639 --> 00:10:36.080
Yeah, Chuck DeGro wrote the book.
00:10:36.240 --> 00:10:36.720
Oh, yeah, yeah.
00:10:36.799 --> 00:10:43.919
When narcissists, yeah, when narcissists come to church, and so yeah, I I I think that we can't throw the baby out with the bath water.
00:10:44.080 --> 00:10:45.919
There's a lot of good characteristics with it, right?
00:10:46.080 --> 00:10:52.399
It's just that it goes so extreme and becomes problematic when people start taking advantage of other people, yeah.
00:10:52.480 --> 00:10:53.519
Right, yeah, that's good.
00:10:53.679 --> 00:10:55.120
Yeah, that's really, really good.
00:10:55.440 --> 00:10:58.240
So, do you guys personally have any experience?
00:10:58.399 --> 00:10:59.759
I mean, Mark, this is your job.
00:10:59.919 --> 00:11:01.039
I'm gonna go to Kirk with this one.
00:11:01.360 --> 00:11:03.120
I think confidentiality, I don't think he's allowed to share.
00:11:03.279 --> 00:11:03.679
Yeah, yeah.
00:11:03.840 --> 00:11:08.000
Well, if he could say yes or no that he's had an experience with it, but I'm gonna direct it at you.
00:11:08.240 --> 00:11:10.799
Kirk, do you have any experience with this type of personality in your life?
00:11:10.960 --> 00:11:13.759
Have you encountered people that have exhibited some of these characteristics?
00:11:13.919 --> 00:11:14.559
I definitely have.
00:11:14.799 --> 00:11:15.759
Uh yes, I have.
00:11:15.919 --> 00:11:27.519
I've yes, there's been people in my uh family extended unit who have exhibited these behaviors.
00:11:27.759 --> 00:11:28.000
Yeah.
00:11:28.240 --> 00:11:35.840
So I'm yes, for I've run into quite a few when when people uh I'll give you this as a a picture.
00:11:36.159 --> 00:11:47.840
There's when people come into counseling and when somebody usually spends the majority of time talking about one person, it's because the person has a personality disorder, they kind of fill the room.
00:11:48.320 --> 00:12:01.200
And so a lot of times narcissistic individuals, if it's pretty extreme, they never darken the door, but people who are around them end up coming in because of the harm that it causes.
00:12:01.440 --> 00:12:01.679
Right.
00:12:01.759 --> 00:12:01.919
Yeah.
00:12:02.159 --> 00:12:02.720
Yeah.
00:12:03.039 --> 00:12:03.679
I can see that.
00:12:03.840 --> 00:12:13.279
I mean, I'm just thinking in our friendship, um, I'm struggling with there's a a person related to a project at work and textbook.
00:12:13.360 --> 00:12:20.960
Um, in fact, I was speaking about um, I was speaking to a friend of mine about the difficulty in dealing with this person.
00:12:21.200 --> 00:12:24.559
She's like, all you have to do is constantly just tell him how great he is and praise him.
00:12:24.639 --> 00:12:27.360
And and I was like, I don't have time to do any of that.
00:12:27.519 --> 00:12:32.320
I just um and uh I I found the same thing, right?
00:12:32.559 --> 00:12:47.919
So this small, very small corner of my life, somebody that I that has no reason for me to ever be on my mind ends up taking so much space in the things that I have to do because managing of it becomes a major thing.
00:12:48.320 --> 00:12:51.279
That phrase that you use that takes up so much space, yeah.
00:12:51.440 --> 00:13:13.759
That's what people with personality disorders or or people that we would view, and I don't even like that like terminology, but you know, for the sake of being able to explain it, you know, these people that it's like part of the woodwork to a point, you know, with them some of these behaviors, you know, it takes up so much of our space because there's a lot of maintenance that goes on.
00:13:13.919 --> 00:13:19.519
And again, remember, it's not because they're so competent, yeah, it's because there are such deficits there.
00:13:19.679 --> 00:13:20.000
Yeah.
00:13:20.559 --> 00:13:21.519
It's overcompensation.
00:13:21.759 --> 00:13:23.919
Yeah, I love that word you use maintenance, right?
00:13:24.080 --> 00:13:24.960
That's what it feels like.
00:13:25.120 --> 00:13:32.240
It's like there's so much needed just to keep to make things work with that person around or that type of person around.
00:13:32.480 --> 00:13:41.759
Um and so I'm glad I'm glad we're gonna spend some weeks going into um all of these different types of of personality disorders or neurodivergences.
00:13:42.000 --> 00:13:43.519
Um, because I think it's important.
00:13:43.600 --> 00:13:47.759
I think we run across things all the time where we might not even understand what's going on.
00:13:47.840 --> 00:13:53.200
We just know like there's something different about this person and I I feel uncomfortable, I don't know how to wrap my head around them.
00:13:53.440 --> 00:13:58.000
Yeah, I think the goal too is is awareness more than like, hey, we want you to go out and diagnose people.
00:13:58.240 --> 00:13:58.879
Right, right, right.
00:13:59.200 --> 00:14:00.799
That's not what we were hoping to do.
00:14:00.879 --> 00:14:03.519
Yeah, like I told you mine, you know, this was he was an artist.
00:14:03.759 --> 00:14:06.799
Like, that's not the goal, it's more of just awareness.
00:14:07.039 --> 00:14:13.200
Um and how do we I don't like the word manage, but I don't know, how do we exist within?
00:14:13.360 --> 00:14:16.720
Yeah, you know, um well, how do we manage our own emotions?
00:14:16.960 --> 00:14:20.080
Well, that's I was gonna say it's not managing that's good managing, yeah.
00:14:20.399 --> 00:14:29.440
I think it's that idea that how do we realize that individuals at times, anyone, can be really triggering for us.
00:14:29.840 --> 00:14:38.480
We're not responsible for their behaviors, but we are responsible for our own reactions and our own responses, exactly.
00:14:38.720 --> 00:14:48.799
And so I think that that's a healthier discussion because there's like at times being around somebody who has some of these characteristics, it can be enraging.
00:14:49.039 --> 00:14:49.279
Yeah.
00:14:50.480 --> 00:14:50.799
I love that.
00:14:50.879 --> 00:15:00.879
Yeah, that's I mean that's that's my therapy journey has been that it's like how learning not how I can control but how I can respond.
00:15:01.120 --> 00:15:01.360
Yeah.
00:15:01.759 --> 00:15:03.279
What's in with what's within my control.
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:03.679
Yeah.
00:15:04.000 --> 00:15:04.639
That's been really helpful.
00:15:04.879 --> 00:15:22.399
And and I think it's it's important to realize that our job is to set limits and boundaries and to also realize that when people have had such extreme deprivation, when they've had such extreme harm, that they're not particularly good at accepting you know, boundaries and limits.
00:15:22.639 --> 00:15:25.120
And and let me say this for people, I want people to hear this.
00:15:25.519 --> 00:15:29.279
That idea that boundaries and limits is not one and done.
00:15:29.440 --> 00:15:29.759
Right.
00:15:30.080 --> 00:15:31.120
It is continual.
00:15:31.200 --> 00:15:40.960
I had a therapist that once said to me, it's kind of like a skip on a record that you have to keep repeating this stuff over and over and over because they don't hear.
00:15:41.120 --> 00:15:41.279
Yeah.
00:15:41.600 --> 00:15:41.919
Yeah.
00:15:42.080 --> 00:15:47.279
Well, and tying back to that, because it that ties into my answer to this question.
00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:50.799
But what kind of feelings come up for you guys when you're dealing with someone who's a narcissist?
00:15:50.879 --> 00:15:52.879
I know you said enraging, right?
00:15:53.039 --> 00:16:00.559
So I think I've my feelings have gr like grown with the more awareness I've had of circumstance, right?
00:16:00.639 --> 00:16:13.440
Where at first it was a lot of frustration, but I think a lot now is a little more compassion and like consideration of that person's of why they are you know acting in this this manner.
00:16:13.759 --> 00:16:22.960
Not that I'm in agreement or I'm like rooting for it, but just more discovery of that and seeing that and just trying to hold that, you know, place.
00:16:23.279 --> 00:16:24.159
Yeah, that makes sense.
00:16:24.480 --> 00:16:27.519
So mine tie into this the boundary thing, right?
00:16:27.679 --> 00:16:32.000
Um exhaustion, just deep frustration and exhaustion.
00:16:32.159 --> 00:16:40.639
Um, because we I and find uh I find that I end up having to keep redrawing those boundary lines and going back like, hey, no, no, this is not okay.
00:16:40.879 --> 00:16:44.080
And after a while, it's just it just sucks all the energy out of me.
00:16:44.159 --> 00:16:46.000
So that's I'm with you on that too.
00:16:46.080 --> 00:16:47.120
That's that's part of it too.
00:16:47.200 --> 00:16:56.799
But yeah, often there's frustration because we have an expectation that somebody's gonna get something because it seems so clear to us, yeah.
00:16:57.919 --> 00:16:58.799
But they don't get it.
00:16:59.039 --> 00:16:59.279
Yeah.
00:16:59.919 --> 00:17:01.440
Yeah, that's so true.
00:17:02.080 --> 00:17:05.039
Um, so what kind of actions do you take based on those feelings?
00:17:05.200 --> 00:17:08.319
Uh like I was talking about frustration, you were talking about rage.
00:17:08.480 --> 00:17:10.559
Um, empathy was Kirk's answer.
00:17:10.640 --> 00:17:13.839
So what what do we do when we're feeling that way around these people?
00:17:17.039 --> 00:17:18.160
That's a good question.
00:17:18.480 --> 00:17:23.200
Yeah, it's uh I think it's so dependent on the level of relationship that you have with that person.
00:17:23.519 --> 00:17:23.920
That's true.
00:17:24.240 --> 00:17:24.559
Right.
00:17:24.640 --> 00:17:34.000
If this is someone you live with or whatever, it's gonna be very different from someone you just see, maybe see at work and get to get to go home and not have to deal with it, you know.
00:17:34.160 --> 00:17:36.480
So um yeah, I don't know.
00:17:36.799 --> 00:17:37.440
That's a good question.
00:17:37.839 --> 00:17:43.759
You know, I I was talking with Tim Fletcher because he he does a lot of expert on narcissism.
00:17:43.839 --> 00:17:46.240
He has so many good things he talks about.
00:17:46.640 --> 00:17:59.680
One of the things he talks about that's a trap for people who are in relationships, uh closer relationships with someone who has personality disorders, especially narcissism, is the tendency to threaten them.
00:18:00.319 --> 00:18:05.119
You know, if you do that again, I'm going to, you know, fill in the blank.
00:18:05.359 --> 00:18:11.200
He says the worst thing you can do unless you're willing to fulfill the threat.
00:18:11.519 --> 00:18:11.680
Yeah.
00:18:12.319 --> 00:18:14.400
Empty threats is not gonna work.
00:18:14.720 --> 00:18:19.200
No, it's it's just gonna continue to to uh perpetuate the cycle.
00:18:21.119 --> 00:18:30.559
Well, because it from this particular disorder or or behavior, whatever you want to say, there there is almost a high threat level, and that's where the overcompensation comes in, right?
00:18:30.799 --> 00:18:31.039
Already.
00:18:31.200 --> 00:18:31.359
Yeah.
00:18:31.519 --> 00:18:36.640
It's like it's already like needing to be validated, needed to be recognized.
00:18:36.880 --> 00:18:38.720
And so there's already that threat that they have.
00:18:38.880 --> 00:18:50.400
So adding additional threats probably just you know creates a different another cycle of plus you if you're if you're gonna bluff, you get disarmed pretty quickly.
00:18:50.880 --> 00:18:58.319
Like if you try to bluff and and you don't go through with it, and that's kind of the end of that's you've spent all of your ammunition, there's nothing else.
00:18:58.480 --> 00:18:58.559
Yeah.
00:18:58.720 --> 00:19:03.119
So now that you know they can continue to walk on you, walk all over you because nothing's gonna happen.
00:19:03.440 --> 00:19:10.319
So I I think that being aware that there's going to be certain emotions that come up.
00:19:10.400 --> 00:19:16.960
And I I love what Kirk talks about getting to the point where you can feel some compassion, and that's like that's a long journey.
00:19:17.119 --> 00:19:36.960
Yeah, and and and and wonderful because that takes a lot of ego strength to be able to be like, listen, this is their stuff and not allow it to merge with with you because they're very good at merging their ego with you, and kind of it's kind of like did you ever see the movie The Blob?
00:19:37.359 --> 00:19:38.160
Yeah, yeah.
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:56.160
Well, that's like a narcissist, you know, in in a in a in a way, you know, symbolically, that they just suck the life out of people they're around because they don't feel good about themselves, and so they just envelop you and little by little take over your life if you allow it.
00:19:58.079 --> 00:19:59.599
It's a horror movie, folks.
00:20:01.440 --> 00:20:05.200
So uh let's take a little time and explore this space of narcissism.
00:20:05.359 --> 00:20:09.359
Uh, does anybody know when this particular personality disorder was classified?
00:20:11.279 --> 00:20:12.480
Anyone have any idea?
00:20:13.039 --> 00:20:14.880
Well, the Greek myth, yeah.
00:20:15.039 --> 00:20:22.960
Narcissist that that's where it comes from, where he looked into a pond and he fell ma he fell madly in love with himself.
00:20:23.119 --> 00:20:23.440
Yeah.
00:20:23.680 --> 00:20:27.359
And then couldn't think about anybody else but himself.
00:20:27.839 --> 00:20:35.839
And and I should say too, when you look, certain disorders are more prevalent with males and females, and this one is one for males.
00:20:38.160 --> 00:20:43.839
You know, so if you're going back to the Greek myth, that's that's where where it points.
00:20:44.240 --> 00:20:56.319
It also was it was toyed around with different psychologists and different doctors in the 1800s that talked about this you know propensity that people had to just think about themselves to to look for special.
00:20:56.640 --> 00:20:57.359
Yeah, you know.
00:20:58.079 --> 00:20:59.599
Yeah, the the vanity piece, right?
00:20:59.839 --> 00:21:07.039
Yeah, it's it's I mean the Bible talks a lot about that, but you know, not it's the unhealthy love of self, right?
00:21:07.519 --> 00:21:22.079
It's not that there shouldn't be a appreciation and love of of creation image bearing, but it's the unhealthy version of it that I think so it's been around for a long time, I guess if the Bible speaks into it, but yeah, um, but officially diagnosed, I have no idea.
00:21:22.240 --> 00:21:22.880
Mark would probably know.
00:21:23.200 --> 00:21:24.000
Mark was actually right.
00:21:24.079 --> 00:21:36.640
So the 1800s is when it was really first talked about um as something different and very uh varying from the normal, and 1980 is when it was first put into the third edition of the DSM.
00:21:36.799 --> 00:21:37.200
Yeah.
00:21:37.440 --> 00:21:39.599
So the 1980, a year before I was born.
00:21:39.680 --> 00:21:41.279
So narcissists are older than I am.
00:21:41.599 --> 00:21:46.640
And and one of the one of the things one of the things, yeah, years later.
00:21:47.440 --> 00:22:03.119
But but one of the things that the American Psychiatric Association did, and and early training for me, I definitely learned this and I don't think it's accurate, is that People can't change who have personality disorders.
00:22:03.440 --> 00:22:07.279
And I've seen that proven wrong time and time and time again.
00:22:07.680 --> 00:22:09.920
I think that the approaches were wrong.
00:22:10.400 --> 00:22:13.839
And so psychology said, well, this just isn't working.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:16.000
So they must not be able to be changed.
00:22:16.160 --> 00:22:16.319
Yeah.
00:22:16.480 --> 00:22:17.519
And that's not accurate.
00:22:17.680 --> 00:22:24.000
You know, we we see that borderline personality disorder, which I'd love to dive into in another week.
00:22:24.319 --> 00:22:24.799
Yeah, yeah.
00:22:25.039 --> 00:22:31.119
You know, that that idea that uh somebody with borderline, you know, just couldn't be couldn't change.
00:22:31.200 --> 00:22:32.640
That's not true what they have found.
00:22:32.880 --> 00:22:35.599
Marsha Lenahan uh came up with Dr.
00:22:35.680 --> 00:22:37.599
Marsha Lenahan had it.
00:22:38.480 --> 00:22:51.119
And so she came up with this whole program, genius, came up with this whole program, DBT, and and found a way of like kind of merging a lot of this, you know, black and white thinking, things like that.
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:52.319
And we'll talk about that.
00:22:52.480 --> 00:22:58.160
But that idea, I just want to say that people can't change is is just not accurate and not scriptural.
00:22:58.319 --> 00:22:58.640
Yeah, I agree.
00:22:58.799 --> 00:23:00.160
But it doesn't mean that it's easy.
00:23:00.400 --> 00:23:02.160
Yes, that's a good catalyst.
00:23:03.200 --> 00:23:04.559
Yeah, absolutely.
00:23:04.720 --> 00:23:06.880
Um, so let's talk about that, right?
00:23:06.960 --> 00:23:11.039
So BPD can be managed uh or or changed.
00:23:11.200 --> 00:23:12.799
Uh, how do you manage narcissism?
00:23:12.960 --> 00:23:13.680
Can you treat it?
00:23:13.759 --> 00:23:14.720
What what does that look like?
00:23:15.039 --> 00:23:31.680
Well, I think for narcissism, and I was talking to Tim about this, that idea that that people have to paint themselves into a corner with their behaviors and get to the point where they're so desperate that they're willing to do pretty much anything.
00:23:31.759 --> 00:23:34.079
And I think that I think that's a good picture of all of us.
00:23:34.319 --> 00:23:40.000
Yeah, you know, we don't we're not real willing and gung ho to change behaviors until you know it kind of hurts.
00:23:40.079 --> 00:23:40.400
Yeah.
00:23:40.640 --> 00:23:49.279
And so when that comes about, when there is some harm to the ego, people are more willing or amenable to change.
00:23:49.759 --> 00:23:50.079
Yeah.
00:23:50.880 --> 00:23:59.680
I wonder though, if it in those moments, if they're met with compassion and kindness, if that really brings a a bigger healing, right?
00:23:59.920 --> 00:24:10.720
Than if they're met with I don't know, content or just like Yeah, and I and I think that we've talked about this, Kirk, that idea of recovery for people who have addictions.
00:24:11.039 --> 00:24:19.599
You know, there's been a harshness within the community, and and that's the last thing that people with uh behaviors of addiction need.
00:24:19.920 --> 00:24:24.160
They need yeah, because think about it, if it's shame, that that's at the core, right?
00:24:24.319 --> 00:24:27.519
And they're receiving shame after they've come to this discovery.
00:24:27.920 --> 00:24:29.519
Is that the is that the antidote?
00:24:29.599 --> 00:24:30.240
You know, I don't know.
00:24:30.880 --> 00:24:31.759
Absolutely not.
00:24:31.839 --> 00:24:34.960
I think that people need kindness, they need gentleness.
00:24:35.200 --> 00:24:42.720
Uh I think that for the narcissist, they need to have very clear boundaries and limits.
00:24:44.000 --> 00:24:44.319
Yeah.
00:24:44.720 --> 00:24:46.079
Sense of security too, maybe?
00:24:46.319 --> 00:24:46.880
Absolutely.
00:24:47.119 --> 00:24:48.400
Yeah, all of the things.
00:24:48.559 --> 00:24:55.200
If you can replicate what they didn't have in childhood, there's a hope that there's gonna be some movement toward change.
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:55.680
Yeah.
00:24:55.920 --> 00:24:56.559
Right.
00:24:58.240 --> 00:25:11.279
So if we have these type of people in our lives, we have narcissists in our lives, what are some and and again, I think kind of boiling down what you were saying is people everyone needs to come to the place where they they're ready to change.
00:25:11.440 --> 00:25:13.680
Um, they're willing to do what it takes to change.
00:25:13.920 --> 00:25:18.240
Um, so if that person in your life isn't there yet, how do we interact with them?
00:25:18.400 --> 00:25:22.160
How do we manage, maybe we can't manage them, how do we manage ourselves?
00:25:22.240 --> 00:25:25.200
What are some some strategies that we can employ to protect ourselves?
00:25:25.359 --> 00:25:32.720
And well, I think I think that one of the things we have to do is we have to regulate ourselves emotionally because we'll go on a roller coaster otherwise.
00:25:33.119 --> 00:25:40.640
I think also that there's there's what I have seen is in families, there's usually a narcissist and then a co-narcissist.
00:25:41.119 --> 00:25:47.200
There is the husband who has a lot of shame, but then there's the wife who has a lot of shame.
00:25:48.559 --> 00:25:56.960
So she allows a lot of the things to go on and and doesn't feel good enough within herself to be like, no, no, no, I can't do this anymore.
00:25:57.200 --> 00:25:57.599
Yeah.
00:25:57.920 --> 00:25:58.240
Yeah.
00:25:59.119 --> 00:25:59.680
What's this?
00:26:00.000 --> 00:26:02.480
So I remember from therapy the idea of gray rock.
00:26:02.640 --> 00:26:03.279
Is it gray rocking?
00:26:03.359 --> 00:26:04.160
Or gray rock?
00:26:04.240 --> 00:26:07.680
What is I can't remember which is exactly no no no gray rocking, yeah.
00:26:07.920 --> 00:26:08.880
You're absolutely right.
00:26:09.119 --> 00:26:16.880
That whole idea of being able to stay neutral in in very explosive, emotionally explosive situations.
00:26:17.359 --> 00:26:24.240
Um, a lot of times narcissists count on people feeding off of their outrageous statements.
00:26:24.400 --> 00:26:24.480
Right.
00:26:25.359 --> 00:26:28.880
They make narcissists make outrageous statements.
00:26:28.960 --> 00:26:29.359
Yeah, sure.
00:26:29.599 --> 00:26:31.200
And they just wait for the reaction.
00:26:31.440 --> 00:26:35.359
If they're not getting the reaction, yeah, it dissipates after a while.
00:26:35.519 --> 00:26:35.680
Yeah.
00:26:35.839 --> 00:26:37.119
So that's great rocking.
00:26:37.279 --> 00:26:37.599
Yeah.
00:26:38.480 --> 00:26:45.440
I was picturing the Rolling Stones, just dudes all in gray, gray hair, rocking hands, those guys are currently good rocking hands for sure.
00:26:45.519 --> 00:26:45.680
Okay.
00:26:45.839 --> 00:26:47.039
Just learn something new.
00:26:47.200 --> 00:26:49.680
It's not a rock term, ladies and gentlemen.
00:26:49.920 --> 00:26:52.400
Thank you for coming to with all your minds.
00:26:52.799 --> 00:26:54.000
Glad we can help.
00:26:54.799 --> 00:27:00.319
So I was talking about if you live some with someone that has narcissism where you're around them, you're related to them.
00:27:00.400 --> 00:27:02.240
Um, but what about if it's the other way around?
00:27:02.319 --> 00:27:05.920
What if you find yourself exhibiting some of these characteristics of narcissism?
00:27:06.240 --> 00:27:07.119
Where do you go for help?
00:27:07.279 --> 00:27:08.319
How do you ask for help?
00:27:08.480 --> 00:27:10.400
What is it that you're asking for?
00:27:11.279 --> 00:27:12.240
Such a good question.
00:27:12.400 --> 00:27:13.519
That's a really loaded question.
00:27:14.240 --> 00:27:16.720
Because how do you know if I don't I don't know.
00:27:16.799 --> 00:27:17.359
I'm just sorry.
00:27:17.440 --> 00:27:17.920
I'm just pressed.
00:27:18.160 --> 00:27:18.960
Let's let's say this.
00:27:19.039 --> 00:27:24.880
I think that for all of us, we've all had deprivation, we've all had abuse, we've all had harm.
00:27:25.440 --> 00:27:33.200
So, what happens if we put narcissism on a continuum and we say that we all have a tendency toward it?
00:27:33.680 --> 00:27:39.680
Yeah, some very some in very minor ways, some in very extreme ways.
00:27:39.839 --> 00:27:40.000
Yeah.
00:27:40.319 --> 00:27:53.119
So I I I think that you know, scripture gives, of course, the the antidote, you know, to love yourself, to love your neighbor and to love God.
00:27:53.839 --> 00:28:03.440
You know, and and and so there's a lot of people within Christianom that shy away from that idea of self-love because it's like, oh no, no, no, you'll be self-centered.
00:28:03.920 --> 00:28:04.799
It's gonna cause pride.
00:28:05.279 --> 00:28:07.839
Yeah, yeah, and and pride causes narcissism.
00:28:09.839 --> 00:28:17.599
So if somebody thinks they they have some issues with narcissism, why not, you know, talk to somebody about it?
00:28:17.920 --> 00:28:21.039
Ask them, you know, do you see those characteristics in me?
00:28:22.400 --> 00:28:25.680
Find somebody safe to talk to, yeah, and maybe even a counselor.
00:28:26.160 --> 00:28:26.720
Yeah.
00:28:27.359 --> 00:28:38.000
And this is something I've we've talked to the teens about um in uh youth group here, but um, is attention seeking strictly a negative thing?
00:28:38.880 --> 00:28:45.920
And we've we've had long discussions on this with them uh to kind of see where their heads at and maybe point out some things.
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:46.799
But what do you guys think?
00:28:47.039 --> 00:28:49.599
Oh Kirk Kirk Thompson, Dr.
00:28:49.680 --> 00:28:58.000
Kirk Thompson talks about the fact that an individual, when born, comes out of the womb looking for people to look for them.
00:28:58.720 --> 00:29:01.200
So I don't think there's anything wrong with attention.
00:29:01.599 --> 00:29:03.200
Again, we're talking about extremes.
00:29:03.359 --> 00:29:03.759
Right, right.
00:29:03.920 --> 00:29:09.839
You know, if somebody gets up in the morning and their number one goal is how much attention can I get for myself today?
00:29:10.000 --> 00:29:11.039
Yeah, that's a problem.
00:29:11.119 --> 00:29:15.200
Yeah, yeah, because I think attention is based on the design of connection.
00:29:15.440 --> 00:29:23.759
And if we're designed to be connected to one another and we're not connected or not receiving that, then I don't think seeking the attention is a negative.
00:29:23.920 --> 00:29:24.079
Right.
00:29:24.400 --> 00:29:27.200
Like Mark said, the level of it could be the challenge.
00:29:27.440 --> 00:29:29.759
The other thing we're talking about developmental phases, sure.
00:29:30.000 --> 00:29:35.519
You know, the the two-year-old is pretty self-absorbed and wants attention.
00:29:35.599 --> 00:29:35.759
Right.
00:29:35.920 --> 00:29:37.839
And I think it's developmentally correct.
00:29:37.920 --> 00:29:38.079
Right.
00:29:38.240 --> 00:29:41.839
And if they don't get that attention, then narcissism begins to grow.
00:29:42.000 --> 00:29:42.240
Right.
00:29:43.279 --> 00:29:45.440
For a teen, teens are much like two-year-olds.
00:29:45.680 --> 00:29:50.799
Yes, so it's it's okay for them to want to explore and to get attention.
00:29:51.039 --> 00:29:51.519
Yeah.
00:29:52.319 --> 00:29:57.920
Well, and it's yeah, it's like part of the human experience of like meaning and like what is my purpose?
00:29:58.079 --> 00:30:06.720
What is my meaning like when you're not given necessarily be given that you're gonna seek that out in different ways and could be unhealthy, could be healthy, you know.
00:30:06.799 --> 00:30:09.440
I think it's Genesis that says that he's a God who sees.
00:30:09.599 --> 00:30:09.759
Sure.
00:30:10.079 --> 00:30:11.039
And who is he seeing?
00:30:11.119 --> 00:30:14.799
He's seeing us, and he knows that that's really important for us to be seen.
00:30:14.960 --> 00:30:15.039
Yeah.
00:30:15.279 --> 00:30:27.119
I was actually just gonna say that one of the one of my favorite things about language in newer generations is that a few years ago, quite probably a decade now, but that I that language started to shift to that.
00:30:27.200 --> 00:30:35.119
Like I feel seen, I want to be seen, and it really is apt-wording to describe what it is that you're looking for.
00:30:35.279 --> 00:30:40.559
You want somebody to acknowledge you, to to know that you exist, to value your worth.
00:30:40.799 --> 00:30:47.279
Um and not only so they can see it, but so that you feel that.
00:30:47.519 --> 00:30:51.440
Um, and so yeah, I think it's it's a a basic human need.
00:30:51.680 --> 00:30:53.519
I think so often we malign it.
00:30:53.680 --> 00:30:58.960
Yeah, and I and I think the difficulty in conversations like this is we want a formula.
00:30:59.680 --> 00:31:04.720
And, you know, like I said earlier, if you've met one narcissist, you've met one narcissist.
00:31:05.039 --> 00:31:13.839
And so I think everybody, there's there's patterns and there's things to look at, but there needs to be an individualized plan for each marriage.
00:31:13.920 --> 00:31:26.559
If there, if there's a situation where somebody feels like their husband is, let's say, a narcissist, and then there needs to be, you know, an evaluation of that particular situation and not just one size fits all.
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:26.880
Yeah.
00:31:27.519 --> 00:31:33.839
Yeah, I think I think the the result of the fall created insecurity and stability, right?
00:31:33.920 --> 00:31:41.440
So I think the human condition now exists with a desire for security, and that's even why we have like secure attachment and things like that at the developmental stage.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:48.559
So I think that is part of the longing that we have as humans is like, is this secure?
00:31:48.960 --> 00:31:49.599
Am I secure?
00:31:49.680 --> 00:31:50.720
Is this relationship secure?
00:31:50.880 --> 00:31:53.279
Is this, you know, will I be rejected?
00:31:53.519 --> 00:31:57.279
I think that's just this continuum that we think we, you know, I have it.
00:31:57.359 --> 00:32:02.799
I've I've you know, I I still have insecurities that I'm when I get to a situation, is this safe?
00:32:02.880 --> 00:32:03.519
Is this secure?
00:32:03.680 --> 00:32:11.519
You know, yeah, you know, that that idea that you text someone and they don't text you back, and then you say, is everything all right?
00:32:11.920 --> 00:32:14.240
And you don't hear from them, and you know where your mind goes.
00:32:14.319 --> 00:32:16.400
It goes to 14,000, at least mine does.
00:32:16.559 --> 00:32:18.240
Yep to like, what did I do wrong?
00:32:18.480 --> 00:32:20.240
Yeah, you know, so you're absolutely right.
00:32:20.319 --> 00:32:24.640
That that idea of insecurity is born in us from the fall.
00:32:24.880 --> 00:32:25.440
Yeah.
00:32:25.839 --> 00:32:46.240
And I want to go through um, we've got a list here of some of these characteristics, so that just feeling confident or um even occasionally being a little selfish and being like, hey, I need to focus on me this week or this, you know, today because I'm having a rough day or whatever, doesn't equal narcissism.
00:32:46.319 --> 00:32:46.400
Right.
00:32:46.559 --> 00:32:48.319
So I'm gonna read through some of these characteristics.
00:32:48.400 --> 00:32:56.559
And if if there are many of these seen in the person, or if the stuff that like this is repeated constantly, then there's a much higher chance that that might be it.
00:32:56.880 --> 00:32:57.519
That's really good.
00:32:57.599 --> 00:33:09.839
You know, that idea of the prevalence, yeah, you know, uh uh how often you see it and how extreme it is, is how you look at a particular issue to see if it is a real problem or not.
00:33:10.160 --> 00:33:10.799
Right, right.
00:33:11.039 --> 00:33:28.079
So I've got a grandiose sense of self-importance, like I'm the exception to the rule, um, a deep need for admiration and validation, a lack of empathy, difficulty truly seeing or valuing others' feelings, a tendency to exploit relationships for personal gain, fragile self-esteem underneath it all.
00:33:28.160 --> 00:33:42.720
So criticism hits hard even if it doesn't seem like it does on the surface, entitlement, expecting special treatment without necessarily reciprocating, and uh one of the biggest tensions on the outside, all of this can look like confidence, but underneath it's actually insecurity that's driving the behavior.
00:33:42.880 --> 00:33:50.799
So even if it seems like this person is moving through the world full of confidence and not needing all of this stuff, um, that's really what's driving it.
00:33:50.880 --> 00:33:51.680
The driver's the opposite.
00:33:52.079 --> 00:34:04.480
It makes me think of the Wizard of Oz, you know, where he is sitting there and you see the wizard, yeah, and you see this you and then you hear, you know, him say to them, you know, pay no attention to that man behind the curtain.
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:04.799
Yeah.
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:07.200
I think that looks a lot like narcissism.
00:34:07.599 --> 00:34:15.039
There's this big grandiose show put on, but then behind the scenes is this insecure person that's like, pay no attention to me.
00:34:15.280 --> 00:34:15.840
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:16.239 --> 00:34:17.119
That's not me.
00:34:17.280 --> 00:34:17.599
Yep.
00:34:17.760 --> 00:34:20.800
This show when you peel back the layers of the onion, you see that.
00:34:21.119 --> 00:34:22.159
Yeah, yeah.
00:34:22.880 --> 00:34:24.239
This is actually really good.
00:34:24.400 --> 00:34:33.840
I think what you were saying, Kirk, uh, the idea of being able to understand and recognize and be aware of um these things, I think that's really the goal with us going into this series.
00:34:34.000 --> 00:34:36.480
Um, because I think everybody's got questions.
00:34:36.719 --> 00:34:39.440
I think um, what do they call it?
00:34:39.599 --> 00:34:46.239
Uh mental health TikTok um is uh a lot of people are saying a lot of things.
00:34:46.400 --> 00:34:47.840
Most of it is inaccurate.
00:34:48.079 --> 00:34:53.760
There's a lot of people throwing the word narcissist and narcissism around, like you mentioned, Mark, who have no idea what it means.
00:34:54.000 --> 00:35:03.440
Um, and there are probably people out there that are afraid that they might be something because somebody once called them a narcissist, so they might be freaking out and trying to read about it.
00:35:03.599 --> 00:35:07.440
And um, you know, if you are worried about it, please see somebody.
00:35:07.519 --> 00:35:17.440
You know, if this is something, if if what I was reading, that list of things keeps coming up and and you're hearing from other people that this might be, then there is help, there's hope, it's not like the end of the world for you.
00:35:17.519 --> 00:35:33.119
Um, and on the other hand, if you're if that reminds you of somebody that you are of that list of things, somebody that you're struggling with, somebody that you're having a hard time with, um, maybe dig into it a little more um and try to look at ways that you can try to manage the situation, manage your own um feelings around that person.
00:35:33.280 --> 00:35:39.920
Like we said, talk about boundaries and yeah, and sometimes people need support and they need some insight and how to deal with that.
00:35:40.239 --> 00:35:41.599
Yeah, exactly.
00:35:41.920 --> 00:35:55.280
Yeah, and one of the things that's really important to keep in mind here is a lot of times we fall into, and this is a common trap with all kinds of um uh mental disorders when you're around somebody that's that's got a personality disorder and it's tough.
00:35:55.440 --> 00:36:04.880
People say, if I just adjust enough, if I try harder, maybe I can make this relationship work, if I just if I can do better, if I I would were more for this person.
00:36:05.039 --> 00:36:07.519
And that is a really dangerous place to be.
00:36:07.679 --> 00:36:11.280
Um, because so it it sometimes isn't about you.
00:36:11.360 --> 00:36:16.320
It doesn't matter what you do, there's something going on outside of yourself and you can only control so much of that.
00:36:16.559 --> 00:36:21.360
Yeah, and often they talk about it being a chasm, you know, there's just this deep chasm.
00:36:21.519 --> 00:36:25.280
Yeah, and then no matter what you do, there's not enough to fill that chasm.
00:36:25.519 --> 00:36:27.440
Yeah, that's so good.
00:36:27.679 --> 00:36:30.559
Yeah, that's where codependency challenges come in.
00:36:30.880 --> 00:36:31.840
Absolutely.
00:36:32.239 --> 00:36:36.159
And we're gonna be diving deeper and deeper into this stuff in the the coming week.
00:36:36.320 --> 00:36:37.920
So just thanks so much.
00:36:38.079 --> 00:36:38.960
Thank you for joining us.
00:36:39.039 --> 00:36:44.320
Um, we've got a whole bunch of other things that are difficult to talk and start and deal with.
00:36:44.480 --> 00:36:52.320
So if you're into it, if you want to dig into some of these things that aren't really explored or explained as much, um, please just keep tuning in.
00:36:52.480 --> 00:36:55.840
We'd love to have you if you have if you have questions or any ideas for episodes too.
00:36:55.920 --> 00:36:56.559
We'd love to hear it.
00:36:56.639 --> 00:37:00.559
Kirk and Mark, as always, thank you so much for your friendship, for your love, for being here.
00:37:00.639 --> 00:37:02.480
Um, thanks to everybody that's listening.
00:37:02.639 --> 00:37:03.440
We appreciate you.
00:37:03.519 --> 00:37:04.639
So thank you for joining us.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:09.280
We love you, God loves you, God bless you, and we will catch you next time.
