Modern Web Dev Meets 2000s Flip Phone: What Could Go Wrong?

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Welcome to Syntax!
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Welcome to a brand new episode of the Front End Happy Hour podcast.
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Welcome to this week's JS Party.
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Live from ShipShape Studios, this is Whiskey, Web, and Whatnot.
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With your hosts, Robbie the Wagner and me, Charles William Carpenter III.
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That's right, Charles.
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We drink whiskey and talk about web development.
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I mean, it's all in the name.
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It's not that deep.
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This is Whiskey Web and Whatnot.
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Do not adjust your set.
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Hey, what's up everybody?
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This is Robbie the Wagner with Charles William Carpenter III.
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As always, I don't have to do any of these anymore.
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I am an AI robot.
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I was sent by Charles, so he doesn't have to do this anymore.
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Well, AI has gotten pretty good.
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Yeah, exactly.
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We'll see which one is more tame, the real Chuck or the fake Chuck.
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Yeah, TBD, right?
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Yeah.
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All right, we'll introduce our guest.
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Yes, we have a special guest today who I did not ask how to pronounce his last name,
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but it's Tom, I'm going to say Barrasso, is that correct?
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You nailed it.
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Nice.
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Hey, how's it going?
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Do you want to tell the folks at home a little bit about who you are and what you do?
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Yeah.
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So my name is Tom Arasin.
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I'm currently joining from Switzerland,
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but I've been traveling around the world for almost a year at this point.
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And right now I'm currently working in dev relations
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for a company called CloudMosa.
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They've been around for almost two decades,
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which I guess makes them pretty old in the software space.
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But most recently they're here bringing a remote browser,
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kind of like Opera Mini, but a lot more modern to flip phones
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so that you can bring web apps.
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So that's why, you know, it's all relevant.
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Flip phones and the web are more linked today in 2025 than you would ever imagine.
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Where can one buy a flip phone today?
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Or is this just about the local bodega?
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Yeah, or is it about keeping old hardware current?
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It's about the local Amazon.
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No, it really does depend.
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So I actually was, about a month ago, I was in India.
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And you joke about the local bodega,
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but it's actually the way that the retail model works there.
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It's through a lot of local vendors.
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So you've got these mom-and-pop shops that sell everything from your $70 Xiaomi and Redmi phones to these flip phones, and then some of which the cheapest ones I was able to pick up were about $15 US.
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So they're being made brand new, a couple hundred million units, every year still selling.
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I think that's pretty cool, actually.
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I want to go to there.
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I don't want to go to India, but maybe someday, but not just for a phone.
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I want a flip phone.
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I want less phone.
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There's too much fun.
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Yes.
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We'll get more into this.
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We have to start with the whiskey.
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Whiskey.
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All right.
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So today, folks, we are having Johnny Walker Black Label.
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It is 100% malted barley, but it is a blended scotch.
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It is 80 proof and 12 years old, at least the barrel aging.
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The sound is that cork pop.
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Yeah, there you go.
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It's hot.
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Well, I didn't even bring the bottle in.
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I'm in a co-working space, so I just bring this little sampler and then pour it in there.
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It's a nice little travel setup, actually.
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Yeah, sponsored by Aged in Ore.
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Exactly.
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It's like this little case thing, and it's got a thing for like two and a half ounces,
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that much pour, and then a decent glass with it.
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Yeah, and if they pay us, you'll hear about that.
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If not, we'll cut it out.
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Yeah, that's right.
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This is what we do is we insert ad reads and then we hold it for ransom and contact people there and be like, do you want it?
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Do you want literally hundreds of developers to hear about your product?
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Well, anyway.
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Cool.
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Well, you've already poured yours, Tom, but we're going to start by taking some smells.
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The olfactory senses.
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It smells like a freshly charred log.
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Very campfire.
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okay it smells a little like a grape jolly rancher to me like smelling a grape jolly rancher
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i think your jolly ranchers fell in the fire they might have i'm not getting a strong like
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fiery but that's you know there's no wrong answers here what about you also not getting
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a strong fiery one but when your bottle is an extra 25 years old i think some of that has uh
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evaporated yeah between that i mean yours might be stronger than 80 proof at this point
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but you definitely have had plenty of time to get some oxygen in there and open it up some
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this you know it's it's a scotchy scotch whenever you have a scotchy scotch i feel like they smell
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and taste like a sharpie you know if you like that sort of thing then okay but um yeah i don't know
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i don't know how to describe it other like if you think about a sharpie you know you take the cap
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off you just smell it you don't think there's notes of that well that doesn't smell that doesn't
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Remind me of like char and fire, though, like a Sharpie.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Permanent marker has its own thing.
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Something about that scotchy, smoky smell tends to go towards Sharpie.
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OK.
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I don't know.
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Fair enough.
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On the tongue, I do get a little bit of smokiness in there, but it's actually pretty light.
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Not bad.
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Yeah.
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I'm not sure.
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I get a little bit of smokiness there.
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I get a little bit of like a light lemongrass flavor.
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And I don't know what's coming at the end there.
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I don't know.
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Anything coming to you, Tom?
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I was going to say a little bit like a toned down dry sagebrush.
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Ooh, yeah.
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Okay.
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I could kind of.
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Not quite wood smoke, you know, not quite.
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Maybe mine's mellowed out, so.
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No, I think you might be on to something there.
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but definitely a light lemon in mine on the Finnish side.
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I don't have much to add.
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Should you explain our very technical rating system, Charles?
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Yes, it is highly technical.
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It is from zero to eight tentacles,
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zero being horrible, spit this out, put it down the drain,
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four middle of the road, not bad, would have again,
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not amazing, of course,
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and eight is clear the shelves every time you see it.
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You, on the other hand, may have a challenge in clearing the shelves given that you cleared the shelves of where you got that particular one in the first place.
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And Robbie will show you how this scale works in action.
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Okay.
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So, scotch.
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I'm not a big scotch fan.
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I'm particularly not a this kind of scotch fan.
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But we are an equal opportunity whiskey drinking podcast.
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So we try many things.
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In terms of this style of scotch, I think it is a, like, I would say this is like the Jack Daniels of scotch.
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it's like it's fine it's a whiskey for sure it'll make you feel nice when you drink it probably
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but um not something that i would reach for very often i'm gonna give it a three i think
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fair enough all right tom do you seem do you feel prepared to give it a rating i think i think i can
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manage this one i had a similar train of thought to robbie but i was going to go on the other side
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that rating scale.
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So it reminds me of some of the very first whiskeys that I would drink,
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which came in plastic bottles and then eventually upgraded to ones that came in glass,
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like Jack Daniels that you mentioned.
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And thinking in college how Tennessee honey was like the
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pinnacle of quality that you could achieve, you know, when you were looking to obtain alcohol at
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a reasonable price, but not regret your decision so much the minute you open the bottle.
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It seemed
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a little bit nicer than that.
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So I would go to a five.
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I certainly wouldn't clear the shelf
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over this but it's very drinkable yeah where did you go to college humass amherst oh cool okay yeah
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i was just wondering like what would be the selection du jour based on location and whatever
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else i i grew up in like northern kentucky cincinnati area so we had it all but well we
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had it all in the bourbon rye you know american whiskey side of things i would say this was
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probably top tier scotch in the late 90s.
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So anyway, cool.
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Yeah, I think we'll be following somewhat similar trends,
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at least in terms of our commentary on this one.
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So yeah, Johnny Walker Black is,
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I would say it's an excellent mixer scotch.
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If the recipe calls for scotch,
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and I've used it many times in Rusty Nails.
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So that's a kind of fun.
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Say you have a bottle of scotch, you're not loving it,
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and you want a way to kind of get through it and enjoy some cocktails with friends.
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I would say Rusty Nail.
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That's a good one.
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Just make sure you've had your tetanus shot.
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Right, exactly.
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Yeah, and don't walk around barefoot, okay?
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That's just what the lesson learned is.
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So with this one, it's a blended scotch.
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It's pretty mellow in the scotch world.
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If you really like scotch, you may not veer towards this one.
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if you really hate scotch you probably won't hate this one either so it is a good like most people
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can agree this is fine but it's also lacks a lot of punch and panache but it's not terrible
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i kind of feel like i'm in in the range around robbie like i don't reach for scotch often but
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if i do i kind of want to know it's scotch like mccallan that kind of thing oh this is tasty it
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brings its own things to it yeah so this is yeah muckety muck so yeah i kind of feel like a three
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two like i don't seek it out it's not terrible i'll finish this poor no problem but uh nothing
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to write home about mom's not going to get a postcard about this one okay well i don't write
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anything so that would nice anyway i'm still sending postcards but i guess that's because
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i'm doing a lot of traveling i think when i first connected with you guys i was in new zealand and
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I had some amazing stuff there.
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But unfortunately, we ended up on Johnny Walker because as I kept moving, it turned out it's pretty difficult to find stuff cross borders nowadays.
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And some of the really good stuff is some of the hardest to find.
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Yeah.
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Where in Switzerland are you?
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Right now, I'm in a small town just outside of Baden.
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Ah, okay.
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Have you been?
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Yeah, so even harder.
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I have not.
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But I am moving to Como.
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And that's in Italy, not Switzerland.
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I'm aware of that.
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But it is right next to Switzerland and you can drive over to Switzerland in like 20 minutes.
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That's true.
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I'll be exploring.
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You could do the reverse and drive to Switzerland to get lower taxes.
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Right.
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There we go.
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Oh, yeah.
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Well, maybe that'll be a little whatnot that we talk about.
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I don't know if you have like tax arbitrage advice, but obviously having domicile in the U.S., but then if you spend most of your time other places.
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but maybe you don't spend enough time to be burdened with residence tax or anything like that.
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Exactly.
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That's part of my calculation.
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And that's the only calculation because I'm not at all someone of this world.
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I pay an accountant because I hate this stuff.
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So I want to not hate my life every April.
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And, you know, I would swear up and down the block if I had to fill out those forms myself.
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So I pay someone to make it his problem.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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As do we.
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yeah so you're not a generalist in uh in things like accounting yeah i like business but accounting
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absolutely makes me want to blow my brains out yeah that's fair we want to we want to keep you
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around so you can bring us to the promised land of flip phones yes okay so i don't really know
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what developing for flip phone flip phones even entails so i don't know if all of our typical hot
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takes are relevant.
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I scoped the list down anyway, but we will do a few hot takes.
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We'll give it a
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swing.
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Tailwind or vanilla CSS?
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I'm probably preempting some future questions.
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I go vanilla.
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And when we get into CloudFoam, there's a compelling reason why.
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But yeah, I don't like
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bringing in 100 kilobytes of someone else's junk.
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Fair.
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Okay.
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I guess the bundle size matters more
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for you.
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Get merge or get rebase.
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I mean, that one might apply across the board.
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Yeah.
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I mostly
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work on stuff that's in the last year.
243
00:12:36.011 --> 00:12:37.577
The stuff that I do is mostly by myself.
244
00:12:37.597 --> 00:12:38.420
So I don't, I mean,
245
00:12:39.080 --> 00:12:41.491
version control is pretty straightforward for me.
246
00:12:41.873 --> 00:12:43.400
There's not a lot of, not a lot of merge
247
00:12:43.460 --> 00:12:44.042
conflicts here.
248
00:12:44.663 --> 00:12:49.897
Push to master or Hey, maybe just FTP your stuff up to a server.
249
00:12:50.178 --> 00:12:50.479
I don't know.
250
00:12:50.920 --> 00:12:51.463
That was really good.
251
00:12:51.483 --> 00:12:52.972
We're not, we're not quite there.
252
00:12:52.992 --> 00:12:53.997
I like my GitHub actions.
253
00:12:54.078 --> 00:12:54.440
I like having
254
00:12:54.521 --> 00:12:56.093
some automated tasks, but I don't...
255
00:12:57.189 --> 00:12:57.297
Okay.
256
00:12:57.420 --> 00:12:59.760
Yeah, I think right now the biggest code base
257
00:12:59.901 --> 00:13:02.660
I'm personally actively developing on is two people.
258
00:13:02.880 --> 00:13:05.400
So we have more complex stuff at the company,
259
00:13:05.560 --> 00:13:06.759
but they don't let me touch that.
260
00:13:07.180 --> 00:13:07.840
Probably for good reason.
261
00:13:08.221 --> 00:13:09.680
I haven't done C++ in a long time,
262
00:13:09.760 --> 00:13:10.840
and pointers scare me.
263
00:13:11.401 --> 00:13:11.705
Okay.
264
00:13:12.394 --> 00:13:12.880
Fair enough.
265
00:13:13.481 --> 00:13:17.260
Okay, so I don't know if you're a VS Code user.
266
00:13:17.464 --> 00:13:17.700
Are you?
267
00:13:18.065 --> 00:13:18.260
Yeah.
268
00:13:19.046 --> 00:13:19.260
Okay.
269
00:13:19.900 --> 00:13:22.000
So is the sidebar on the left or the right?
270
00:13:23.383 --> 00:13:30.940
oh left yeah defaults for the win i don't want to spend time customizing too much
271
00:13:31.842 --> 00:13:39.100
yeah exactly okay and how about this were smartphones a mistake oh man i don't think
272
00:13:39.100 --> 00:13:42.320
i could no i don't think i could go that far i mean they're a pretty incredible invention
273
00:13:43.082 --> 00:13:49.020
they're obviously tons of flaws they're too compelling right yeah right yeah they've stolen
274
00:13:49.120 --> 00:13:54.120
the souls of society but outside of that like pretty amazing yeah like i always told the virtues
275
00:13:54.221 --> 00:13:57.900
of flip phones all the time but as someone who's been traveling for a while it's it's remarkably
276
00:13:58.121 --> 00:14:03.979
hard to do it with a flip phone nowadays there's so many apps you need like went to the uk two
277
00:14:04.200 --> 00:14:08.700
weeks ago and you have to download their app to do an eta electronic travel authorization and you
278
00:14:08.700 --> 00:14:13.620
can't do it there might be other ways with some of these things but like you know it's the difference
279
00:14:13.680 --> 00:14:18.280
sometimes between like oh do you want to use the app or do you want to mail in a piece of paper
280
00:14:18.421 --> 00:14:21.640
and spend a bunch of money on an international postage stamp
281
00:14:21.741 --> 00:14:23.040
and hope it gets there.
282
00:14:23.120 --> 00:14:25.079
And maybe in six weeks, you'll hear from us.
283
00:14:26.021 --> 00:14:26.640
Yeah, right.
284
00:14:27.041 --> 00:14:28.940
But that's how they keep the boomers out, I guess, right?
285
00:14:29.541 --> 00:14:33.060
This is also a question of just because this is the work you do,
286
00:14:33.140 --> 00:14:34.640
it doesn't mean it's the life you live.
287
00:14:34.740 --> 00:14:36.080
So I was actually curious there.
288
00:14:36.400 --> 00:14:37.600
You could be like, oh, no, hell no.
289
00:14:37.721 --> 00:14:38.920
I do smartphones all day long.
290
00:14:39.883 --> 00:14:40.879
That's just the job, yo.
291
00:14:41.801 --> 00:14:43.620
No, I did genuinely try.
292
00:14:43.781 --> 00:14:46.360
So my flip phone journey started five years ago
293
00:14:46.622 --> 00:14:48.980
when I built my podcast out, PodLP, for it.
294
00:14:49.461 --> 00:14:51.560
It originally started right at the start of the pandemic
295
00:14:51.802 --> 00:14:53.620
when I was talking to my girlfriend and was like,
296
00:14:54.101 --> 00:14:56.180
I really want to switch this to the phone.
297
00:14:56.240 --> 00:14:59.240
I keep hearing about people doing it, but I just don't know how.
298
00:14:59.721 --> 00:15:00.860
And then she's like, oh, you'll never do it.
299
00:15:01.041 --> 00:15:03.040
They don't have podcasts, and you love listening to podcasts.
300
00:15:03.280 --> 00:15:05.060
So how would you ever switch to this?
301
00:15:05.080 --> 00:15:06.640
And I was like, okay, I'll build it, right?
302
00:15:06.701 --> 00:15:07.400
That can't be that hard.
303
00:15:07.800 --> 00:15:10.060
So I like, you know, at the start of the pandemic,
304
00:15:10.621 --> 00:15:13.100
so many things I couldn't do, way more time at home,
305
00:15:13.160 --> 00:15:16.380
and I was just like diving into what it means to make a podcast.
306
00:15:16.641 --> 00:15:17.987
And this was pre-podcast index.
307
00:15:18.027 --> 00:15:19.955
So I was like, what is RSS?
308
00:15:20.015 --> 00:15:21.160
Where do I find all these feeds?
309
00:15:21.260 --> 00:15:22.465
Like, where do they exist in the world?
310
00:15:22.906 --> 00:15:24.834
How do I gather all that data?
311
00:15:24.914 --> 00:15:26.460
How do I get it down to
312
00:15:27.102 --> 00:15:28.186
work on one of these phones?
313
00:15:28.728 --> 00:15:28.949
Yeah.
314
00:15:29.190 --> 00:15:31.157
And I tried it out and it was, it's fun.
315
00:15:31.177 --> 00:15:31.880
I would take it for
316
00:15:31.920 --> 00:15:36.337
like camping trips, but there were just too many hurdles, especially five years ago.
317
00:15:36.759 --> 00:15:37.020
There were,
318
00:15:37.140 --> 00:15:40.272
there were two little services built for them.
319
00:15:40.292 --> 00:15:42.520
And especially during the pandemic, when everything
320
00:15:42.661 --> 00:15:43.546
became digital, right?
321
00:15:43.566 --> 00:15:45.315
You started having QR codes for the menus.
322
00:15:45.355 --> 00:15:46.180
You started having like
323
00:15:46.622 --> 00:15:47.910
you needed special transit apps.
324
00:15:47.930 --> 00:15:49.580
You constantly need to be on the web to check
325
00:15:50.102 --> 00:15:54.660
like when you could go to someplace because the times were all weird, like when you could show up
326
00:15:54.740 --> 00:15:55.141
versus.
327
00:15:55.843 --> 00:16:01.160
So yeah, COVID, I feel like really pushed people into like needing smartphones to always be
328
00:16:01.260 --> 00:16:03.970
connected and always be ready for like, who knows what.
329
00:16:04.592 --> 00:16:06.620
So in the last five years, do you think it's
330
00:16:06.700 --> 00:16:08.828
gotten better or worse?
331
00:16:09.069 --> 00:16:11.740
I mean, I guess that your current company is trying to make it better,
332
00:16:12.220 --> 00:16:15.180
But do you think, I'm just curious in general right now,
333
00:16:15.220 --> 00:16:18.160
if I went and got a smartphone, would it be harder or easier?
334
00:16:18.721 --> 00:16:21.340
Sorry, if I went and got a flip phone to leave smartphones?
335
00:16:22.461 --> 00:16:27.160
I would say in the West, it's probably still pretty difficult.
336
00:16:27.721 --> 00:16:29.839
The truth is that a lot of the stuff that you would want
337
00:16:30.243 --> 00:16:32.340
hasn't been built because that's not the major market.
338
00:16:32.500 --> 00:16:34.900
There's a pretty sizable community of digital detoxers
339
00:16:35.326 --> 00:16:36.360
who are interested in these phones.
340
00:16:36.982 --> 00:16:40.320
But the platform, so CloudPhone is actually not available right now,
341
00:16:41.043 --> 00:16:43.753
at least commercially at an appreciable scale in the United States.
342
00:16:44.194 --> 00:16:45.720
It's just not that the target
343
00:16:45.820 --> 00:16:46.141
market.
344
00:16:46.663 --> 00:16:51.198
The primary focus is devices that are incredibly cheap, incredibly affordable.
345
00:16:51.559 --> 00:16:51.720
And the
346
00:16:51.740 --> 00:16:55.920
truth is most of these digital detoxers are actually buying like kind of nicer, higher end
347
00:16:55.960 --> 00:16:56.483
flip phones.
348
00:16:56.744 --> 00:17:00.000
Sometimes I see them on Reddit and they're buying like importing ones from Japan
349
00:17:00.141 --> 00:17:05.040
that are sometimes more expensive than smartphones, which is now I need to find out what this phone is.
350
00:17:06.484 --> 00:17:11.260
yeah that's it's interesting yeah i was going to say i have seen some of that and you'll see
351
00:17:11.661 --> 00:17:17.740
we are with uh e-ink screens there's certain ones like the minimal phone or it's something like that
352
00:17:18.282 --> 00:17:21.960
and they're expensive right there's like four to six hundred dollars for what is supposed to be
353
00:17:22.080 --> 00:17:28.500
less and then they'll still give you some app access and all of that but i i guess like step
354
00:17:28.761 --> 00:17:33.180
one is they think with e-ink it'll it'll be less compelling to kind of stare at it for a long
355
00:17:33.180 --> 00:17:33.384
Yeah.
356
00:17:33.770 --> 00:17:34.320
Periods of time.
357
00:17:34.320 --> 00:17:35.960
You won't scroll social media with e-mail.
358
00:17:37.022 --> 00:17:37.828
Right, exactly.
359
00:17:37.908 --> 00:17:39.460
But they're expensive.
360
00:17:39.662 --> 00:17:42.040
It's kind of like to detox in that way.
361
00:17:42.662 --> 00:17:45.320
The opportunist cost is still like, well, you have money.
362
00:17:45.981 --> 00:17:52.340
You're just choosing not to do this rather than like the economic reasons that might drive people to just a flip phone.
363
00:17:52.940 --> 00:17:53.500
Yeah, exactly.
364
00:17:53.981 --> 00:17:56.040
And I think there's a big difference in knowing what you're missing.
365
00:17:56.180 --> 00:18:01.420
Like if you've already had a smartphone, you've had a thousand apps before, you know, like you've had your bank app.
366
00:18:01.500 --> 00:18:06.260
you've had whatever digital wallet you use, you've got, you know, apps for social media,
367
00:18:06.400 --> 00:18:10.040
you probably get like five different apps for messaging people, you know, so you've,
368
00:18:10.160 --> 00:18:13.920
you've really been hooked into the ecosystem, but if you're brand new to the phone world,
369
00:18:14.241 --> 00:18:19.618
or maybe you're finally upgrading from, you know, a Nokia series from 2005 and you're forced to,
370
00:18:20.420 --> 00:18:24.760
because your telco shut down 2G and 3G and you have to move to a 4G flip phone,
371
00:18:25.543 --> 00:18:28.340
then you're probably just going to pick the cheapest option you've got available,
372
00:18:28.902 --> 00:18:33.600
which hopefully we won with a cloud phone service but yeah at the end of the day i mean it's very
373
00:18:33.982 --> 00:18:37.600
you're coming from very different approaching the market very differently and thinking about
374
00:18:37.700 --> 00:18:41.800
the types of ways that you interact with technology very differently or thinking about it just less
375
00:18:42.281 --> 00:18:47.900
right like your life is so much less digital if you've made it to 2025 and you haven't found that
376
00:18:47.900 --> 00:18:55.680
you needed whatever 150 apps right yeah yeah yeah i think there's a like for me it's it's the little
377
00:18:55.800 --> 00:19:01.440
things that I don't think I could do without like iMessage and like these headphones connecting to
378
00:19:01.721 --> 00:19:09.200
all of my devices and like things just being easy but I do wish that like someone would make
379
00:19:10.263 --> 00:19:16.680
a non-smartphone that did all that like if you could do the nice things like I want to listen
380
00:19:16.720 --> 00:19:22.060
to music still but I don't need like internet really like I don't want social media for sure
381
00:19:22.341 --> 00:19:27.720
like i know that oh you could just delete the apps yeah i could but like you have no self-control
382
00:19:28.001 --> 00:19:34.200
yeah like i want i want something to force me into doing it like there's uh yeah there's lots
383
00:19:34.260 --> 00:19:39.780
of high-end people trying to do this but it just hasn't fully come full circle yet i guess call it
384
00:19:39.820 --> 00:19:45.000
the camping phone or something like that like oh can use in emergencies but doesn't access a bunch
385
00:19:45.080 --> 00:19:49.480
of services i don't know yeah you might be surprised with how advanced he's gotten so at
386
00:19:49.520 --> 00:19:52.679
the very bottom of the market now, you've got some of these flat phones that are like $15.
387
00:19:53.620 --> 00:19:58.140
But if you go even just a little bit up to about $20, I've got one that's got Wi-Fi, Bluetooth,
388
00:19:58.480 --> 00:19:59.966
it can connect to even AirPods.
389
00:20:00.468 --> 00:20:03.500
It doesn't have the same seamless experience that your iPhone does.
390
00:20:03.580 --> 00:20:05.870
And by that, I mean, you put it in your ear.
391
00:20:05.930 --> 00:20:08.160
It doesn't auto pair because it doesn't have that
392
00:20:08.200 --> 00:20:12.740
software integration, but you can go to the Bluetooth settings, discover it, pair it.
393
00:20:13.281 --> 00:20:14.727
I think we're inching there.
394
00:20:14.747 --> 00:20:17.500
I mean, we've got ones with NFC now that can do digital payments.
395
00:20:18.005 --> 00:20:19.659
every one of these in India comes with UPI.
396
00:20:19.860 --> 00:20:22.116
So it's pretty incredible where they've come
397
00:20:23.103 --> 00:20:25.200
and I think where they could go.
398
00:20:25.940 --> 00:20:26.040
Yeah.
399
00:20:26.200 --> 00:20:29.140
What about ride-sharing stuff?
400
00:20:30.122 --> 00:20:30.759
Is there a nod for that?
401
00:20:31.325 --> 00:20:31.460
No.
402
00:20:31.741 --> 00:20:32.276
There's no...
403
00:20:32.420 --> 00:20:33.800
I mean, if anything,
404
00:20:34.140 --> 00:20:36.793
I think the market would demand the flip side of that, right?
405
00:20:38.240 --> 00:20:40.180
So if we were to work with a ride,
406
00:20:40.664 --> 00:20:41.880
not to say we wouldn't, of course,
407
00:20:42.182 --> 00:20:44.880
if Uber wanted to be on this platform,
408
00:20:45.744 --> 00:20:46.560
we'd happily take them.
409
00:20:46.880 --> 00:20:48.502
But I think if anything, you'd have it the other way around.
410
00:20:48.522 --> 00:20:55.368
You'd have the drivers who have flip phones in India on the tuk-tuk, you know, with the Uber app on their flip phone.
411
00:20:55.768 --> 00:21:00.192
And then, you know, it would give them all the basics that they need to be able to do this.
412
00:21:00.232 --> 00:21:05.757
But right now there's very few of them with GPSs and the ones that do, they're not very good.
413
00:21:06.098 --> 00:21:08.880
The GPSs they have are pretty coarse.
414
00:21:09.640 --> 00:21:13.280
Yeah, I mean, $20 is not going to get you a GPS, I would say.
415
00:21:14.722 --> 00:21:17.340
You're going to have to elevate a little bit more above that.
416
00:21:17.601 --> 00:21:20.460
Yeah, that's not going to get you a Chipotle burrito these days.
417
00:21:23.545 --> 00:21:24.640
Just about getting there.
418
00:21:25.400 --> 00:21:27.240
Let's talk about the cost of fast food.
419
00:21:27.960 --> 00:21:31.698
What, a beefy cheese burrito at Taco Bell is almost $6 now.
420
00:21:33.383 --> 00:21:34.600
$6 U.S. dollars.
421
00:21:34.661 --> 00:21:36.020
You don't have that problem in Switzerland.
422
00:21:36.564 --> 00:21:37.579
They have actual food.
423
00:21:38.644 --> 00:21:42.560
oh yeah but it's much worse i walked into a mcdonald's because i love seeing sometimes like
424
00:21:42.660 --> 00:21:46.640
oh what's the mcdonald's in this country have and they've got raclette which is like their font it's
425
00:21:46.640 --> 00:21:51.738
like a type of cheese that you melt i like raclette they have a mc raclette burger but it was 16
426
00:21:52.400 --> 00:22:00.200
francs which is probably about 20 us dollars wow that's did you try it i did not at that price i
427
00:22:00.280 --> 00:22:04.640
was like oh my god i'll go somewhere not willing curiosity didn't didn't get the best of you there
428
00:22:04.740 --> 00:22:08.439
you're very i would have gotten it i'm gonna say and they probably sold a beer with it too and it
429
00:22:08.600 --> 00:22:13.100
would have been like ah this will make it feel better yeah the mcdonald's quality elsewhere in
430
00:22:13.120 --> 00:22:17.760
other countries is better though too like it's just fresher because a lot of stuff is outlawed
431
00:22:18.041 --> 00:22:25.000
in most other countries yeah yeah meat like products are just actual meat but anyway i digress
432
00:22:26.263 --> 00:22:32.600
this just in whiskey.fund is now open for all your merch needs that's right robbie we're hearing
433
00:22:32.700 --> 00:22:40.320
reports of hats sweaters and t-shirts as well as a link to join our discord server what's a discord
434
00:22:40.460 --> 00:22:46.280
server just read the prompter man hit subscribe leave us a review on your favorite podcast app
435
00:22:46.400 --> 00:22:50.940
and tell your friends about our broadcast it really does help us reach more people and keeps
436
00:22:51.040 --> 00:22:54.900
the show growing all right back to your regularly scheduled programming
437
00:22:58.808 --> 00:23:05.040
I would be curious in and you maybe we can find a way like uh offline later where you can share a
438
00:23:05.100 --> 00:23:09.960
few links to like some of these low-cost phones you can't guarantee anything's available in the
439
00:23:09.980 --> 00:23:15.620
U.S. but I'm just like curious like what it shows for features and things like that yeah I mean I
440
00:23:15.680 --> 00:23:20.320
can sort of walk through what one of these would look like and the lay of the land of the flip phone
441
00:23:20.420 --> 00:23:24.239
world which I guess I hadn't really given the outline here I'm sure every like you guys everyone
442
00:23:24.440 --> 00:23:29.100
here is familiar with like the old moto razors and stuff the old nokias you know back when they
443
00:23:29.100 --> 00:23:34.280
were simbian before microsoft bought them and threw them in the gutter so those phones they had
444
00:23:34.943 --> 00:23:39.120
some version of an app right they had there was i don't know if you remember j2e java 2 mobile
445
00:23:39.200 --> 00:23:44.980
edition it was like a yes like a heavily watered down version of java that was brutally fragmented
446
00:23:45.120 --> 00:23:50.420
across every phone and you could write some apps and if you were lucky you get it to compile and
447
00:23:50.440 --> 00:23:54.020
then you'd send it off to an oem and they would stamp it with their digital signature and put it
448
00:23:54.060 --> 00:23:58.059
on God knows how many different, you know, back then telcos used to run app stores.
449
00:23:58.079 --> 00:23:58.360
They used to
450
00:23:58.400 --> 00:24:00.771
have like the Verizon app store or the T-Mobile app store.
451
00:24:01.314 --> 00:24:02.700
And that was how it kind of worked.
452
00:24:02.760 --> 00:24:06.280
And then there was Beru, which was its own thing that was mostly in the U.S., but also somewhere
453
00:24:06.400 --> 00:24:06.601
else.
454
00:24:07.043 --> 00:24:10.396
So they kind of marched along, but they were all doing their own thing.
455
00:24:10.838 --> 00:24:11.420
Writing apps was
456
00:24:11.641 --> 00:24:13.328
pretty painful, but you could.
457
00:24:13.408 --> 00:24:15.015
And then you had Opera Mini for a browser.
458
00:24:15.416 --> 00:24:16.340
And then, you know,
459
00:24:16.841 --> 00:24:22.500
I think the Symbian days really hit their peak in like 2011, 2012, just before Windows Phone
460
00:24:22.801 --> 00:24:24.528
became Nokia's focus.
461
00:24:24.588 --> 00:24:27.018
And then you started to have a little bit more.
462
00:24:27.038 --> 00:24:27.640
It was kind of like
463
00:24:27.660 --> 00:24:28.082
Blackberry.
464
00:24:28.102 --> 00:24:29.148
You were still writing in Java.
465
00:24:29.168 --> 00:24:31.500
You still had proprietary SDKs, but there was just
466
00:24:31.600 --> 00:24:32.826
more of an ecosystem around it.
467
00:24:32.987 --> 00:24:35.277
Apple kind of forced everybody into that world.
468
00:24:35.719 --> 00:24:35.960
And then,
469
00:24:36.221 --> 00:24:37.950
you know, Google quickly after with Android.
470
00:24:38.251 --> 00:24:39.960
And then it kind of died down for a while,
471
00:24:40.060 --> 00:24:40.221
right?
472
00:24:40.241 --> 00:24:42.839
Because the companies that were making these things, they all wound down
473
00:24:43.321 --> 00:24:47.415
or limped along, you know, getting taken over by Android and Apple.
474
00:24:47.736 --> 00:24:49.000
You had Firefox OS actually,
475
00:24:49.080 --> 00:24:52.300
which was one attempt at a competitor to bring a web platform to this world.
476
00:24:53.040 --> 00:24:54.219
Yeah, I kind of remember that.
477
00:24:54.840 --> 00:24:58.120
Yeah, it was a cool project, but it didn't really go very far commercially.
478
00:24:58.320 --> 00:25:00.779
They had a couple of devices, but it never really hit the shelves.
479
00:25:01.423 --> 00:25:03.040
But the idea was there, right?
480
00:25:03.060 --> 00:25:06.000
It was like, we're going to bring web apps to smartphones.
481
00:25:06.361 --> 00:25:07.660
So it wasn't PWA back then.
482
00:25:07.700 --> 00:25:09.340
It was like, it will be the native app.
483
00:25:09.542 --> 00:25:10.320
That's the platform.
484
00:25:11.041 --> 00:25:14.400
And then Firefox OS, the team ended up being reincarnated to become KaiOS,
485
00:25:14.943 --> 00:25:16.400
which became a flip phone platform.
486
00:25:17.001 --> 00:25:18.700
So you had all these flip phones running Firefox
487
00:25:18.740 --> 00:25:21.440
as their operating system, and then apps were web apps.
488
00:25:21.900 --> 00:25:25.080
They launched in, I'll say, 2018, give or take.
489
00:25:25.704 --> 00:25:27.400
They had some stuff before then,
490
00:25:27.440 --> 00:25:29.640
but they really hit their strides in 2018 with the GeoPhone,
491
00:25:29.740 --> 00:25:32.135
which sold, I think, from 2018 until now,
492
00:25:33.040 --> 00:25:37.640
like 135 million units of all their various models in India.
493
00:25:37.780 --> 00:25:39.180
So it was a huge success in India,
494
00:25:39.741 --> 00:25:41.140
and to a lesser extent outside of India.
495
00:25:41.180 --> 00:25:43.780
It's still sold today, especially in the U.S., actually.
496
00:25:44.300 --> 00:25:46.280
If you buy a flip phone, odds are it's going to have KaiOS.
497
00:25:46.763 --> 00:25:48.600
And then two years ago is when we launched CloudPhone.
498
00:25:49.381 --> 00:25:53.380
It really came from seeing the trends in the flip phone space where
499
00:25:53.844 --> 00:25:55.440
KaiOS is kind of like smartphone light.
500
00:25:55.640 --> 00:25:56.900
They called it a smart feature phone.
501
00:25:57.342 --> 00:26:00.300
So the prices, they started inching up and up and up along with smartphones,
502
00:26:00.460 --> 00:26:03.240
especially with the chipset shortage during COVID, inflation,
503
00:26:03.861 --> 00:26:06.680
all that stuff really started to eat at the cost of these.
504
00:26:07.220 --> 00:26:09.500
And so then, you know, CloudPhone basically was like,
505
00:26:09.540 --> 00:26:11.720
well, if we do all the web rendering in a server somewhere,
506
00:26:12.301 --> 00:26:14.880
you don't even need the hardware that these phones run on.
507
00:26:15.061 --> 00:26:20.660
is as low as 16 megs of RAM, single core, one gigahertz, sometimes even less than that CPU.
508
00:26:21.400 --> 00:26:23.829
So there's nothing on these phones.
509
00:26:23.889 --> 00:26:27.100
I mean, in terms of hardware, I think of them as a glorified
510
00:26:27.180 --> 00:26:28.945
calculator by today's standards.
511
00:26:30.951 --> 00:26:32.315
Yeah, that's really interesting.
512
00:26:32.395 --> 00:26:34.140
So the internet is obviously
513
00:26:34.281 --> 00:26:37.534
a really important part of providing the experiences.
514
00:26:38.116 --> 00:26:38.960
Yeah, well, I think a lot of
515
00:26:40.104 --> 00:26:44.720
A lot of platforms recognize that it's pretty difficult to draw developers to niche platforms.
516
00:26:44.881 --> 00:26:47.200
And one way that you can is by lowering the barriers to entry.
517
00:26:47.400 --> 00:26:50.620
And so web is a great way to do that by saying, we're going to bring the web to your phone.
518
00:26:51.041 --> 00:26:59.040
And now everybody who's been building PWAs for years can ship them finally somewhere and have a real app store, have an ecosystem, get downloads.
519
00:26:59.580 --> 00:27:08.160
And Kaiwa said this, but I think one of the things they struggled with was that all of the apps, because they run on the phone and because they run on very outdated versions of Firefox,
520
00:27:08.923 --> 00:27:12.660
you know it ends up being quite an ordeal to actually get your app to run on it effectively
521
00:27:13.423 --> 00:27:18.720
i remember the very first versions of pod lp would crash because um podcast thumbnails are like
522
00:27:18.780 --> 00:27:24.620
3 000 by 3 000 pixels and displaying that on the phone was it ran out of memory so i had to like
523
00:27:24.680 --> 00:27:29.800
build the thumbnail service that shrunk them and i just did that too oh yeah isn't that fun
524
00:27:30.924 --> 00:27:36.040
yeah i mean i i did it all through vercells like image optimization stuff but uh yeah it was
525
00:27:36.602 --> 00:27:41.959
our website for each image for each episode we have a different image and they have to be 3 000
526
00:27:42.380 --> 00:27:48.980
by 3 000 so it was like the slowest web page ever to just load like our list of episodes so now it's
527
00:27:49.000 --> 00:27:53.280
not yeah and you know in the modern world of smartphones it doesn't really matter but like
528
00:27:53.641 --> 00:27:57.940
you know if you have your iphone your iphone can download an rss feed for joe rogan with god knows
529
00:27:58.060 --> 00:28:03.560
like 15 megabytes worth of stuff you can download your actually if anything apple really wants you
530
00:28:03.600 --> 00:28:07.220
to have the 3000 pixel images because they've got, I don't even know, what are they calling
531
00:28:07.260 --> 00:28:08.285
the latest screen now?
532
00:28:08.386 --> 00:28:11.100
It was liquid retina, but now it's something else where the pixels are,
533
00:28:11.561 --> 00:28:12.504
you know, quantum level.
534
00:28:13.466 --> 00:28:13.747
Yeah.
535
00:28:13.767 --> 00:28:14.148
I don't know.
536
00:28:14.228 --> 00:28:14.409
Yeah.
537
00:28:16.013 --> 00:28:16.274
Yeah.
538
00:28:16.675 --> 00:28:18.420
More than you can see with your eye
539
00:28:18.560 --> 00:28:22.900
these days, like past the resolution that even matters, but it looks a little cleaner.
540
00:28:24.441 --> 00:28:24.683
Yeah.
541
00:28:25.065 --> 00:28:26.613
I mean, and don't get me wrong.
542
00:28:26.633 --> 00:28:27.417
Those things are awesome.
543
00:28:27.437 --> 00:28:27.819
Like I'm on
544
00:28:28.261 --> 00:28:28.964
Apple Silicon.
545
00:28:28.984 --> 00:28:33.260
They make some pretty cool stuff, but you know, it is kind of fun when you work in
546
00:28:33.300 --> 00:28:38.417
this environment where the smallest phones that we sell have qq vga screens which is 120 by 160
547
00:28:39.943 --> 00:28:44.720
that's the number of pixels you can count that's like you know how like sometimes you know you're
548
00:28:44.720 --> 00:28:48.079
building the website and you're off by one pixel with a border or something like ah you know it
549
00:28:48.260 --> 00:28:53.000
blends in especially in today's screens on these phones it's like that one pixel could be the you
550
00:28:53.040 --> 00:28:58.780
know could bleed over and like could alter your layout could look really you know strange now
551
00:28:58.780 --> 00:29:08.200
Now that you mentioned that, I don't think I've ever developed a website that I checked past like, I don't know, 300 pixels was like the smallest width.
552
00:29:08.740 --> 00:29:13.520
So that means probably everything I've ever built is terrible on any of these devices.
553
00:29:13.841 --> 00:29:17.960
Like, I wonder if you've had a lot of experience with that sort of thing.
554
00:29:18.741 --> 00:29:26.340
Like, it's an education problem, I think, to like developers building websites that they would even have users that might have a screen that small.
555
00:29:26.921 --> 00:29:30.746
Yeah, the interaction patterns become very different at a scale like that.
556
00:29:31.327 --> 00:29:33.971
I'll say right now, you mentioned Tailwind at the very beginning.
557
00:29:34.231 --> 00:29:40.800
If you're using Tailwind or Bootstrap or any of these big CSS, I don't know what they call them, frameworks, libraries, like what is it in the CSS world?
558
00:29:41.242 --> 00:29:45.940
if you're importing one of these the smallest breakpoints that they set for extra small or
559
00:29:45.980 --> 00:29:49.696
small i think is because i just wrote this up for smashing magazine it was like 520 pixels
560
00:29:51.061 --> 00:29:56.940
give or take that means that everything below 520 is treated as the same right so unless you are
561
00:29:57.602 --> 00:30:03.160
adding your own so unless you're putting in your own breakpoints and yeah the i think the problem
562
00:30:03.240 --> 00:30:06.700
with that is that you end up just taking like a smartphone layout like you're building something
563
00:30:06.800 --> 00:30:09.875
for the iPhone 8 and you're like, oh, let's just squeeze it into 120 by 160.
564
00:30:09.895 --> 00:30:10.257
And it's like,
565
00:30:11.361 --> 00:30:13.608
no, that's half of an Apple watch.
566
00:30:14.009 --> 00:30:17.300
That is so small that you can't just have the sticky nav
567
00:30:17.380 --> 00:30:17.863
at the top.
568
00:30:17.884 --> 00:30:20.540
You can't have the cookie banner down there because the whole screen's gone.
569
00:30:20.800 --> 00:30:21.142
That's it.
570
00:30:21.484 --> 00:30:23.436
Those two buttons and the sticky header and you're done.
571
00:30:23.556 --> 00:30:24.200
There's nothing left.
572
00:30:24.720 --> 00:30:25.262
Yeah.
573
00:30:25.502 --> 00:30:26.165
It's hard mode.
574
00:30:26.265 --> 00:30:29.816
You've got to basically like CSS change everything.
575
00:30:29.896 --> 00:30:31.100
Like if it's this small,
576
00:30:31.381 --> 00:30:37.140
move it everywhere hide all the things or maybe just uh disable css at certain size
577
00:30:38.103 --> 00:30:43.700
well yeah you could it would have no style at all no style whatever an html document in its
578
00:30:43.840 --> 00:30:52.400
rawest form as intended oof yeah there are get behind that i i found a phone in india that was
579
00:30:52.640 --> 00:30:58.300
from 2018 that has a version of opera mini that's text only so you could do that you could just take
580
00:30:58.360 --> 00:31:04.140
the website and render it like that but right you know everyone's doing spas now so now what now you
581
00:31:04.160 --> 00:31:10.840
get javascript and no css that sounds like without javascript too yeah i was gonna say you know that
582
00:31:11.021 --> 00:31:16.240
how does it work without i mean it doesn't and spa really wouldn't and so what does it fall back to
583
00:31:16.441 --> 00:31:22.440
you know well essentially every website won't work without javascript because i mean you can
584
00:31:22.861 --> 00:31:29.080
but you can't ever like click a button and be like thanks for contacting us you know you would
585
00:31:29.120 --> 00:31:36.040
have to post it to the other page you can't like reload the screen without the hypermedia controls
586
00:31:36.281 --> 00:31:44.180
would still work which is an anchor and a form and so if those basic things would work i do i
587
00:31:44.240 --> 00:31:49.040
just wouldn't want to have to enter details on a form you know from uh what was what was that
588
00:31:49.040 --> 00:31:49.798
What's your address?
589
00:31:49.900 --> 00:31:51.259
T9 keyboards or whatever, and you're like,
590
00:31:51.761 --> 00:31:53.460
people used to be really fast with those things,
591
00:31:53.682 --> 00:31:54.680
and I never was that fast.
592
00:31:55.362 --> 00:31:56.460
The T9 keyboards.
593
00:31:56.580 --> 00:31:58.180
No, I, like as soon as, what did they have,
594
00:31:58.240 --> 00:31:59.720
like the sidekick or something like that?
595
00:31:59.760 --> 00:32:03.100
As soon as they had like the full keyboard flip open side things,
596
00:32:03.180 --> 00:32:05.718
I was all over that because I was never good with a T9.
597
00:32:06.460 --> 00:32:09.380
But could you imagine within like a web form trying to be like,
598
00:32:09.582 --> 00:32:09.950
you know.
599
00:32:11.541 --> 00:32:15.820
Anyway, I do like the, I think it's interesting to start to like
600
00:32:16.021 --> 00:32:19.020
develop value on the web with constraints.
601
00:32:19.682 --> 00:32:25.180
that kind of sounds fun to me in a weird like hate myself kind of way but yeah i think it sounds kind
602
00:32:25.180 --> 00:32:30.560
of cool actually i was gonna say at at amazon i never actually worked for this team but there
603
00:32:30.600 --> 00:32:36.858
was a like kindle team and the kindle team has to ship everything in like es3 like really old
604
00:32:37.520 --> 00:32:42.940
javascript because it's like a bespoke browser or something that they have for kindle that like
605
00:32:43.060 --> 00:32:47.900
only runs es3 so it's like you know another environment where it's like you're very constrained
606
00:32:47.900 --> 00:32:49.880
and you can't use most of the stuff you're used to using.
607
00:32:50.642 --> 00:32:51.920
I was just thinking about the Kindle
608
00:32:52.001 --> 00:32:53.060
because I brought it up to our company.
609
00:32:53.200 --> 00:32:56.040
It was like, oh, why doesn't Kindle move to a remote browser?
610
00:32:56.601 --> 00:32:58.800
And I think there's probably two key reasons.
611
00:32:59.001 --> 00:33:01.240
One is the only reason you use your web browser and your Kindle
612
00:33:01.764 --> 00:33:03.820
is to connect to a Wi-Fi network.
613
00:33:04.261 --> 00:33:05.880
And sometimes if you're on a public network,
614
00:33:05.982 --> 00:33:07.080
you've got a captive portal.
615
00:33:07.780 --> 00:33:09.200
Captive portals don't work on remote browsers
616
00:33:09.240 --> 00:33:10.960
because they're not running in your local network.
617
00:33:11.100 --> 00:33:12.280
They're running in a server somewhere.
618
00:33:13.361 --> 00:33:13.920
So that's one.
619
00:33:14.020 --> 00:33:16.000
And two is people just don't need or want that, right?
620
00:33:16.060 --> 00:33:17.000
The reason you bought a Kindle
621
00:33:17.081 --> 00:33:18.480
because you want something.
622
00:33:18.580 --> 00:33:19.100
And I've got one.
623
00:33:19.160 --> 00:33:19.498
I love it.
624
00:33:19.861 --> 00:33:21.420
It's got a ridiculous battery life.
625
00:33:21.660 --> 00:33:23.420
It's the one thing I never have to charge.
626
00:33:23.741 --> 00:33:25.820
When it gets low, it's like a shock to me.
627
00:33:25.880 --> 00:33:27.200
I'm like, oh, what has it been, like six months?
628
00:33:27.781 --> 00:33:29.160
Yeah, but I've used that browser.
629
00:33:29.400 --> 00:33:31.800
And you can basically, like you were saying,
630
00:33:31.880 --> 00:33:33.000
you can submit an HTML form.
631
00:33:33.240 --> 00:33:33.859
That's what it can do.
632
00:33:34.660 --> 00:33:34.740
Yeah.
633
00:33:35.482 --> 00:33:37.340
So that's something to be said there.
634
00:33:37.661 --> 00:33:39.660
Yeah, I wonder if on the Kindle platform too,
635
00:33:39.780 --> 00:33:41.760
like there's some sort of DRM constraints.
636
00:33:41.760 --> 00:33:44.700
They just want to reduce access in general.
637
00:33:45.560 --> 00:33:46.499
Yeah, I don't know the whys.
638
00:33:46.700 --> 00:33:54.720
I just know that the guy on the team reached out like, hey, would you have any interest in switching teams to work on this challenging thing?
639
00:33:54.780 --> 00:33:56.580
And I was like, no, no, thank you.
640
00:33:58.541 --> 00:34:02.020
There's no Ember.js on the Kindle is my guess.
641
00:34:02.640 --> 00:34:04.720
Yeah, I don't think you would want to use that.
642
00:34:04.960 --> 00:34:10.200
Like the frame, well, these days the framework is like tree shaken and smaller and your bundle is like fine.
643
00:34:10.380 --> 00:34:14.860
But yeah, classic Ember trying to load on anything would be like, I'm so big I can't do it.
644
00:34:15.462 --> 00:34:21.800
yeah nice try this is an spa uh so robbie has a question on here about ai i think this is a funny
645
00:34:21.940 --> 00:34:27.960
one is how does ai play into this world is it useful for developing feature phone apps
646
00:34:28.803 --> 00:34:33.500
ai in general i yeah i could take this in so many ways for developing i would say it's mixed
647
00:34:34.062 --> 00:34:38.080
the reason i say it's mixed is if you're developing for kaios there's so little material out there for
648
00:34:38.160 --> 00:34:43.439
it i know because i run one of the only blogs focused on kaios so it's a small world it
649
00:34:43.780 --> 00:34:44.945
hallucinates a lot.
650
00:34:45.066 --> 00:34:48.500
It makes up a ton of crap about APIs that don't exist, permissions that
651
00:34:48.500 --> 00:34:49.323
don't work that way.
652
00:34:49.825 --> 00:34:51.571
So caution there.
653
00:34:51.671 --> 00:34:53.618
For CloudFone, I would say you can get 90% away
654
00:34:54.100 --> 00:34:59.400
if you're using AI because it's running currently Chrome 128, but we update the browser engine
655
00:34:59.480 --> 00:35:00.063
periodically.
656
00:35:00.404 --> 00:35:01.891
So it's a very recent version.
657
00:35:02.152 --> 00:35:04.040
So if you just think about targeting Chrome for a
658
00:35:04.080 --> 00:35:06.930
really tiny screen, it actually can be quite helpful.
659
00:35:07.411 --> 00:35:08.555
I had it do that.
660
00:35:09.057 --> 00:35:09.920
I tried both building
661
00:35:10.020 --> 00:35:15.740
new apps and adapting apps i'm skeptical in general on building new apps every time i go to
662
00:35:15.800 --> 00:35:20.680
ai for this i feel like it invents complexity like no one's business i'm working on a currency
663
00:35:20.820 --> 00:35:25.520
converter app and i think my version is like currently and i'm doing it in typescript and
664
00:35:25.560 --> 00:35:29.440
i'm trying to do it clean and all this nice stuff like maybe at like 600 lines of code
665
00:35:30.002 --> 00:35:33.920
and i'm going to add a little bit more style from this maybe i'll have a thousand the one when i was
666
00:35:34.040 --> 00:35:41.020
trying Claude it put out god it was like 500,000 lines it had a docker build with a server that
667
00:35:41.301 --> 00:35:47.280
it didn't do anything the server had an API URL that said to do please update with a real URL
668
00:35:47.822 --> 00:35:52.940
where I was going to fetch the data from that's like I just looked at this thing it's like oh my
669
00:35:53.040 --> 00:35:59.740
god quick what where have I gotten I've got like 30 components like yeah I think it has no idea
670
00:35:59.840 --> 00:36:04.140
what it's doing and so it tries to add more and more code to get around the bugs but then it just
671
00:36:04.682 --> 00:36:09.800
breaks eventually yeah or you're like hey the input's not working like it's not formatting
672
00:36:09.880 --> 00:36:14.140
the currency this right way it keeps focusing on the symbol but i want it to start the i want the
673
00:36:14.200 --> 00:36:18.840
cursor to start on the first character where the user types the number and then it's like okay i
674
00:36:18.940 --> 00:36:23.500
just imported this library and this library imported four more libraries with it and then
675
00:36:23.560 --> 00:36:27.340
it actually doesn't really know how to use the library and so it puts the component in somewhere
676
00:36:27.842 --> 00:36:32.020
but actually it doesn't realize it's using an angular component but it imported react and it's
677
00:36:32.080 --> 00:36:39.160
just it falls apart pretty quickly so like you can get to a prototype fairly fast and it kind of
678
00:36:39.260 --> 00:36:44.360
works but if you actually want to ship it in production like i have one of my first jobs is
679
00:36:44.360 --> 00:36:49.080
working in a in a marketing agency and that's what they did right they had me like build these
680
00:36:49.301 --> 00:36:53.620
really really quick pocs and then you had a client turn around and be like great let's keep moving
681
00:36:53.680 --> 00:36:59.160
this the chip into production is like no no there's so many things it was never intended for
682
00:36:59.280 --> 00:37:04.520
real life a lot of smoke and mirrors here exactly they're like oh but this looks so good and it's
683
00:37:04.520 --> 00:37:10.620
like yeah because because i i hard-coded or i like made it an image where the animation was
684
00:37:10.640 --> 00:37:16.520
supposed to happen so that you didn't have to know what happened behind the scenes yeah nice
685
00:37:17.904 --> 00:37:23.380
i mean i think that that echoes a lot of people's experiences yeah starting from zero i've been
686
00:37:23.420 --> 00:37:30.540
pretty skeptical and very skeptical of no code solutions especially if you have like i want it
687
00:37:30.600 --> 00:37:36.640
in this technology using these constraints and with this library only and it's like cool i'm
688
00:37:36.660 --> 00:37:41.820
going to do that and react anyway and i'm going to bring in these 16 component libraries instead
689
00:37:41.900 --> 00:37:47.140
of writing any of it myself and uh here you go or or they go through these cycles of like
690
00:37:47.823 --> 00:37:51.480
it just won't build they'll start adding features and adding features and it breaks
691
00:37:52.026 --> 00:37:53.260
and it can never build.
692
00:37:53.420 --> 00:37:54.760
And it's like, you ran out of credits.
693
00:37:55.000 --> 00:37:56.414
Upgrade your account.
694
00:37:57.500 --> 00:37:59.280
And I'm like, I'm not sold on that upgrade.
695
00:37:59.820 --> 00:38:01.099
Yeah, or you run out of tokens.
696
00:38:01.743 --> 00:38:02.276
Yeah, tokens.
697
00:38:02.720 --> 00:38:05.080
Your chat window is just like full.
698
00:38:05.380 --> 00:38:07.660
And it's like, hey, I can't do anything else.
699
00:38:07.720 --> 00:38:08.540
And I'm like, wait, what?
700
00:38:08.640 --> 00:38:11.080
Why don't you just let it go infinitely?
701
00:38:11.961 --> 00:38:13.040
Yeah, this is Chuck E. Cheese.
702
00:38:13.160 --> 00:38:13.499
That's why.
703
00:38:14.280 --> 00:38:15.720
But what I will say about AI, though,
704
00:38:16.103 --> 00:38:17.180
not necessarily for development,
705
00:38:17.322 --> 00:38:19.020
but in the use of your app,
706
00:38:19.141 --> 00:38:20.480
it's actually incredibly valuable.
707
00:38:21.040 --> 00:38:25.080
So we've got the ChatGPTIP and Gemini that both run as web apps on CloudFone,
708
00:38:25.500 --> 00:38:27.436
which is pretty incredible that you can take a $15 phone,
709
00:38:28.602 --> 00:38:30.939
point the camera at something and ask, Gemini, what is this?
710
00:38:31.361 --> 00:38:32.900
Or have it translate something for you.
711
00:38:33.282 --> 00:38:36.240
And where I think it could be really huge is speech interfaces, again,
712
00:38:36.340 --> 00:38:37.940
on a device that you can't type very well on.
713
00:38:38.140 --> 00:38:44.080
Or actually, let's think about the users here who are in languages that maybe they can't even type.
714
00:38:44.460 --> 00:38:48.058
Or typing is way more of an ordeal than English, which has 26 characters.
715
00:38:48.600 --> 00:38:55.340
But like, what are you going to do when you've got hundreds, thousands, you've got a, you know, an iconographic language or you've got ones there.
716
00:38:56.041 --> 00:39:01.280
So there's, you know, there's like Whisper, which is a pretty common speech to text model that you can use.
717
00:39:01.543 --> 00:39:02.700
There's translation models.
718
00:39:02.840 --> 00:39:09.600
And there's even a lot of like Indian universities have been building forks of models like Whisper for languages like Tamil and Telugu.
719
00:39:09.620 --> 00:39:14.460
which is pretty incredible that you can now have people converse with your app in their native
720
00:39:14.580 --> 00:39:19.073
language on a phone that costs $15 and use your service.
721
00:39:19.595 --> 00:39:19.916
Yeah.
722
00:39:19.936 --> 00:39:21.400
And it's a much more powerful way
723
00:39:21.440 --> 00:39:26.560
of navigating and understanding the world for someone who this is probably their first phone
724
00:39:26.620 --> 00:39:28.067
and the first time they're ever using the internet.
725
00:39:28.529 --> 00:39:29.794
Now I'm very curious.
726
00:39:30.498 --> 00:39:31.040
Did everyone
727
00:39:31.201 --> 00:39:33.408
have to text in English forever?
728
00:39:33.508 --> 00:39:36.940
I never thought about that because like your one through nine,
729
00:39:37.080 --> 00:39:42.120
having all the letters on it would not have all the characters in like Japanese or something like
730
00:39:42.381 --> 00:39:48.580
how did did they just have to text in English I don't know how did that work kind of yes and kind
731
00:39:48.620 --> 00:39:53.260
of no I mean it depends on the language some languages have built out systems to map characters
732
00:39:53.461 --> 00:39:59.920
to various keyboard layouts including t9 and then other ones I don't know about Japanese specifically
733
00:40:00.081 --> 00:40:04.880
but like there's a huge huge I mean so English is a very popular language in India because there's
734
00:40:04.920 --> 00:40:09.460
so many different regional languages but you end up with when people type hindi now you have to
735
00:40:09.500 --> 00:40:14.380
have like a hanglish language where it's hindi but that's phoneticized as the way that you pronounce
736
00:40:14.440 --> 00:40:20.260
the word in english so they're using hindi words but writing them out in latin character set so
737
00:40:20.280 --> 00:40:25.640
you get a lot of that too in the world oh yeah phonetics makes a lot of sense i guess rather
738
00:40:25.720 --> 00:40:31.760
than literal characters i read a book once that was uh actually it was train spotting and it's
739
00:40:31.820 --> 00:40:36.760
written out in phonetics for scottish you know which obviously is also english but
740
00:40:37.643 --> 00:40:42.060
sounds like yeah it sounds real fucked up and whatever so i thought that was a fun one it was
741
00:40:42.120 --> 00:40:45.540
like slow to start reading at first but then you kind of get into the vibe and then you're like
742
00:40:45.941 --> 00:40:51.160
okay i get it now and you're playing scottish you know accents in your head but uh anyway
743
00:40:51.461 --> 00:40:56.260
an unrelated tangent to a degree but like yeah yeah writing things out in phonetics is
744
00:40:57.304 --> 00:41:01.220
that makes a lot of sense actually oh but scottish is amazing too i love it one of my
745
00:41:01.260 --> 00:41:04.640
favorite accents because it's sometimes they have some sayings that are just so absurd.
746
00:41:05.320 --> 00:41:05.461
Okay.
747
00:41:05.502 --> 00:41:06.994
Glasgow or Edinburgh though?
748
00:41:07.276 --> 00:41:07.760
Very different.
749
00:41:08.841 --> 00:41:12.735
Oh, Glasgow because the Glaswegian accent is completely unintelligible.
750
00:41:13.097 --> 00:41:13.860
I was in New Zealand
751
00:41:14.121 --> 00:41:16.980
with somebody, I think they were from Germany or France and they turned to me and they're like,
752
00:41:17.020 --> 00:41:18.471
is this, do you understand this person?
753
00:41:18.491 --> 00:41:19.317
Are they speaking English?
754
00:41:19.357 --> 00:41:19.700
And I was like,
755
00:41:19.901 --> 00:41:20.686
I actually don't know.
756
00:41:20.787 --> 00:41:22.760
And I'm, I claim to be a native English speaker.
757
00:41:23.360 --> 00:41:23.621
Right.
758
00:41:23.681 --> 00:41:24.123
Exactly.
759
00:41:24.605 --> 00:41:26.010
Glaswegian or Scouse.
760
00:41:26.090 --> 00:41:28.840
I'm not sure which one is, is more unintelligible,
761
00:41:29.081 --> 00:41:34.980
but like equally like hard to follow in my experience for me at least yeah so that's
762
00:41:35.020 --> 00:41:39.060
interesting you like the more confusing the better for you i'm like i'm picking edinburgh
763
00:41:39.060 --> 00:41:44.420
because it is kind of like pretty sounding scottish and that's a yeah both nice towns but man
764
00:41:45.343 --> 00:41:49.840
what are you saying i have no idea i'm just nodding and drinking i have no idea and then
765
00:41:49.860 --> 00:41:54.620
you got to say well if you like glaswegian better than so is it celtic or rangers well i'm from
766
00:41:54.680 --> 00:41:55.044
Boston.
767
00:41:55.569 --> 00:41:56.458
So Celtic, I guess?
768
00:41:56.499 --> 00:41:56.600
Yeah,
769
00:41:56.720 --> 00:41:58.180
the Celtics and then all of that, yeah.
770
00:41:59.023 --> 00:42:00.580
I know in Glasgow
771
00:42:00.883 --> 00:42:02.840
it's like a Christian or Protestant
772
00:42:03.123 --> 00:42:04.699
thing, but I don't know which is which, so
773
00:42:05.109 --> 00:42:05.480
well, well.
774
00:42:06.442 --> 00:42:07.430
They're both Christian.
775
00:42:07.612 --> 00:42:08.116
You're probably
776
00:42:08.701 --> 00:42:10.059
being Catholic or Protestant.
777
00:42:10.501 --> 00:42:11.959
Catholic or Protestant, yes.
778
00:42:12.562 --> 00:42:13.753
Thank you for the correction there.
779
00:42:13.793 --> 00:42:14.419
I'm clearly
780
00:42:14.560 --> 00:42:16.340
devoutly... You're a theologian right here.
781
00:42:16.760 --> 00:42:17.539
Yes, exactly.
782
00:42:18.841 --> 00:42:20.438
Robbie's going to church right after this, so...
783
00:42:23.084 --> 00:42:24.199
That Wednesday night mass.
784
00:42:25.344 --> 00:42:28.120
I got to get off here for dinner, but it's a mass actually.
785
00:42:30.205 --> 00:42:31.400
The mass is my stomach.
786
00:42:31.960 --> 00:42:32.380
Got them.
787
00:42:33.924 --> 00:42:34.133
Gosh.
788
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:35.069
Okay.
789
00:42:35.481 --> 00:42:37.600
So you've been traveling around a lot.
790
00:42:37.740 --> 00:42:44.740
We kind of, I can't remember if we talked about this after recording or beforehand or what about various things about where you've been.
791
00:42:45.201 --> 00:42:49.720
But like, what tips do you have around digital nomad life in general?
792
00:42:50.200 --> 00:42:52.639
You know, are there certain countries that are better than others?
793
00:42:53.084 --> 00:42:54.620
You know, we talked about taxes a little bit.
794
00:42:54.680 --> 00:43:00.080
Like tips to avoid accidentally having to pay taxes or get like extra visas or I don't know.
795
00:43:00.545 --> 00:43:01.259
What do you got for us?
796
00:43:02.466 --> 00:43:03.300
I won't delve into taxes.
797
00:43:03.420 --> 00:43:05.780
It sounds like a lawyer or accountant's problem.
798
00:43:06.402 --> 00:43:06.715
Yeah, yeah.
799
00:43:06.881 --> 00:43:07.660
You don't want to get sued.
800
00:43:08.140 --> 00:43:08.960
I don't need to get sued.
801
00:43:09.582 --> 00:43:10.480
No tax advice here.
802
00:43:11.081 --> 00:43:14.040
It depends on what you're looking for, what level of infrastructure you're here for.
803
00:43:14.481 --> 00:43:15.780
Like I had an amazing time.
804
00:43:15.860 --> 00:43:17.440
I spent most of my time in New Zealand.
805
00:43:18.003 --> 00:43:18.720
Almost six months.
806
00:43:18.921 --> 00:43:19.479
I bought a van.
807
00:43:20.042 --> 00:43:21.020
I had Wi-Fi in it.
808
00:43:21.120 --> 00:43:22.118
It was hooked up to 4G.
809
00:43:22.220 --> 00:43:26.980
I just plugged it into a cigarette outlet that was hooked up to a solar panel, and it worked super well.
810
00:43:27.441 --> 00:43:29.820
I got Wi-Fi more than 90% of the time.
811
00:43:30.421 --> 00:43:31.520
Most of the campgrounds had it.
812
00:43:31.600 --> 00:43:32.680
Pretty much everywhere you go had it.
813
00:43:33.060 --> 00:43:36.240
But that said, nothing about New Zealand was built for digital nomads.
814
00:43:36.800 --> 00:43:39.020
It's just everything was, you know, easy.
815
00:43:39.606 --> 00:43:40.280
They speak English.
816
00:43:40.400 --> 00:43:40.880
It's clean.
817
00:43:41.041 --> 00:43:41.639
Everything's safe.
818
00:43:42.162 --> 00:43:43.200
You don't really have to worry about anything.
819
00:43:43.501 --> 00:43:45.720
So it's just a lot easier to navigate.
820
00:43:46.481 --> 00:43:48.719
And I've been a few other places, Vietnam, India, Thailand.
821
00:43:49.001 --> 00:43:52.220
I think Thailand's a popular one for people for obvious reasons.
822
00:43:52.642 --> 00:43:54.500
Good quality of life, really good infrastructure.
823
00:43:55.621 --> 00:43:58.860
Also, by the standards of Southeast Asia, pretty clean, pretty safe.
824
00:43:59.540 --> 00:44:00.159
Very inexpensive.
825
00:44:01.223 --> 00:44:01.920
Yeah, inexpensive.
826
00:44:02.140 --> 00:44:02.939
Vietnam's even cheaper.
827
00:44:03.201 --> 00:44:04.740
I love Vietnamese food, so it was amazing.
828
00:44:05.520 --> 00:44:07.340
Yeah, that worked really well for me.
829
00:44:07.681 --> 00:44:08.600
India's quite difficult.
830
00:44:09.140 --> 00:44:12.460
It could work, especially if you stay put a lot, but getting around can be a pain.
831
00:44:13.041 --> 00:44:15.300
Definitely some questionable roads there.
832
00:44:16.103 --> 00:44:21.040
and I think just you will get a lot of stares especially if you're like me and you're a shade
833
00:44:21.080 --> 00:44:25.620
of white that doesn't tan very well you know you're kind of like a glowing beacon to everybody
834
00:44:25.620 --> 00:44:34.220
who's just like oh my god Robbie knows your pain yes look at him yeah but all amazing places to be
835
00:44:34.501 --> 00:44:37.620
and I think you can make it work it just depends on what you're looking for right do you want to
836
00:44:37.640 --> 00:44:43.160
sit by the beach and drink you know water from a coconut out of a straw do you want to you know
837
00:44:43.260 --> 00:44:48.420
live in an air conditioned tower because it's 98 degrees and 98% humidity all day.
838
00:44:48.920 --> 00:44:51.680
Do you want to be out hiking and then like occasionally getting work done?
839
00:44:52.443 --> 00:44:53.880
Did you drive in India, Annie?
840
00:44:54.982 --> 00:44:56.899
Oh no, that was the one place I would get behind a legal.
841
00:44:57.481 --> 00:45:00.440
I was going to say, it sounds, you're like getting around.
842
00:45:00.540 --> 00:45:01.980
I'm like, I wonder if he tried driving.
843
00:45:02.040 --> 00:45:02.611
Cause I wouldn't.
844
00:45:03.280 --> 00:45:05.180
But cause I got used to driving the left side from New Zealand.
845
00:45:05.300 --> 00:45:06.780
So I was like, I was thinking about it.
846
00:45:06.821 --> 00:45:07.759
It's like, oh, maybe I could.
847
00:45:08.221 --> 00:45:10.920
And then when we got there, it's like, oh God, no, absolutely not.
848
00:45:11.302 --> 00:45:12.079
Especially near a city.
849
00:45:12.242 --> 00:45:13.039
Don't even think about it.
850
00:45:13.621 --> 00:45:21.940
poof yeah like walking is even kind of quasi dangerous yeah not even quasi yeah just real
851
00:45:22.060 --> 00:45:27.400
danger all around you just can't move whatsoever you have to understand the vibe and the flow of
852
00:45:27.400 --> 00:45:31.200
the crowd and all that kind of stuff is really what it is it's kind of like i think it from what
853
00:45:31.260 --> 00:45:36.400
i've been told i haven't been to india but i have been to thailand and in bangkok you know how it is
854
00:45:36.420 --> 00:45:42.700
it's like these weird sort of like just constant flows of motion through multiple intersections
855
00:45:43.102 --> 00:45:46.020
and just like six people on a moped
856
00:45:46.422 --> 00:45:49.220
and the cars are just nose to nose and all this stuff,
857
00:45:49.462 --> 00:45:50.340
but it keeps moving.
858
00:45:50.520 --> 00:45:52.120
And I'm like, hell no, I wouldn't drive this.
859
00:45:52.561 --> 00:45:55.620
And I've heard that India can be like a hundred times worse.
860
00:45:56.160 --> 00:45:57.240
At least a hundred, maybe a thousand.
861
00:45:57.921 --> 00:46:00.500
Vietnam was like Thailand you're describing.
862
00:46:00.680 --> 00:46:01.940
It's like a beautiful choreography
863
00:46:02.001 --> 00:46:03.380
where you see a thousand mopeds
864
00:46:03.400 --> 00:46:05.580
all descend on one intersection at the same time.
865
00:46:06.021 --> 00:46:08.080
And they all just know how to go around each other
866
00:46:08.523 --> 00:46:10.720
and people walk right through it and it's totally fine.
867
00:46:11.140 --> 00:46:12.579
And in India, it's just constant beeping.
868
00:46:12.840 --> 00:46:20.600
It's like tuk-tuks coming four ways with a truck in the middle of the road and like someone's trying to help someone reverse into an intersection and like everything's just happening all at once.
869
00:46:21.263 --> 00:46:22.860
And everyone's angry and everyone's honking.
870
00:46:23.100 --> 00:46:25.599
And yeah, it's definitely not choreography.
871
00:46:26.420 --> 00:46:27.079
It's just chaos.
872
00:46:27.964 --> 00:46:28.076
Yeah.
873
00:46:28.283 --> 00:46:28.515
Okay.
874
00:46:29.127 --> 00:46:29.619
There you go.
875
00:46:30.282 --> 00:46:31.200
Some massive differences.
876
00:46:31.380 --> 00:46:34.160
Do you want chaos and very spicy food?
877
00:46:35.341 --> 00:46:35.529
Yeah.
878
00:46:36.731 --> 00:46:36.940
Yeah.
879
00:46:37.403 --> 00:46:39.499
I like Indian food, but I think I'm too weak for it.
880
00:46:40.464 --> 00:46:40.840
Every day.
881
00:46:40.982 --> 00:46:41.091
Yeah.
882
00:46:41.200 --> 00:46:41.305
Yeah.
883
00:46:41.640 --> 00:46:41.775
Yeah.
884
00:46:42.064 --> 00:46:42.579
Every day.
885
00:46:44.586 --> 00:46:49.380
every there's just i just live on the toilet let's just be honest i i'm in india i live on the
886
00:46:49.400 --> 00:46:53.940
toilet you also would have a hard time finding whiskey just to relate that back to us right
887
00:46:53.940 --> 00:46:59.400
because um depending on what state you're in i was in kerala and it's all run by the government
888
00:47:00.042 --> 00:47:05.560
and so most hotels most restaurants they don't serve alcohol of any kind and definitely not
889
00:47:05.700 --> 00:47:13.320
hard liquor oh wow no that's funny we've had some indian not visiting there yeah tell me i don't
890
00:47:13.320 --> 00:47:18.660
want to go i'm just going to england for good indian food we've had some whiskeys from india
891
00:47:19.082 --> 00:47:22.979
emroot was one that i recall offhand we've had a couple of their expressions and
892
00:47:23.983 --> 00:47:28.980
fucking terrible i don't know what it was it was like it looks fancy it's got nice packaging they
893
00:47:29.020 --> 00:47:34.560
have all these like things so you you feel like maybe this is good but it wasn't it was like cow's
894
00:47:34.640 --> 00:47:40.780
butthole so you're gonna keep the good stuff to themselves or maybe they just don't have enough
895
00:47:40.800 --> 00:47:46.340
of a market to get good at it i don't know if you have nothing else available how would you know if
896
00:47:46.400 --> 00:47:52.020
the stuff that you make tastes good right yeah they're out in the global market though and you'll
897
00:47:52.361 --> 00:47:58.140
see it all over the place and it's well marketed and the branding looks nice and it's like it's got
898
00:47:58.140 --> 00:48:02.660
a lot of potential and then you try it and i'm like i would rather drink whiskey out of a plastic
899
00:48:02.760 --> 00:48:09.240
bottle than this that was my experience i don't know i want it to be better just hasn't yeah we
900
00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:13.100
did the uh the whiskey advent calendar i think there were two or three from india in there
901
00:48:13.582 --> 00:48:17.380
without reading the description or where it was from and you taste it and it was terrible you'd
902
00:48:17.380 --> 00:48:22.480
be like yep that's probably from india and it was so maybe they'd pick the wrong ones i don't know
903
00:48:22.641 --> 00:48:27.140
would be down to try more of them of course but yeah haven't haven't had good successes so far
904
00:48:28.024 --> 00:48:31.500
yeah sorry i couldn't bring any with me although to be honest i don't know which ones i would pick
905
00:48:31.601 --> 00:48:34.420
because it's probably overwhelming,
906
00:48:34.680 --> 00:48:38.500
and I wouldn't know how to pick from a shelf.
907
00:48:38.900 --> 00:48:40.820
Honestly, even being here in Switzerland can be challenging.
908
00:48:41.020 --> 00:48:43.160
I have to put Google Translate to half the packages
909
00:48:43.281 --> 00:48:46.560
to figure out even what I'm looking at, what it has in it.
910
00:48:46.961 --> 00:48:48.820
So I can't imagine going to a liquor store and being like,
911
00:48:48.900 --> 00:48:50.180
which whiskey is good in India?
912
00:48:51.081 --> 00:48:54.760
You're on the French side too, the Swiss-French, not Swiss-German, right?
913
00:48:55.883 --> 00:48:57.000
Since you said Franks earlier.
914
00:48:58.143 --> 00:48:58.417
Franck.
915
00:48:58.981 --> 00:49:05.819
like oh the currency's the frank but i i honestly have no idea where i people in one single day i
916
00:49:06.562 --> 00:49:11.020
in in one town i had someone speak italian someone speak german someone speak french and
917
00:49:11.020 --> 00:49:14.360
someone speak spanish to me and i was just like oh i don't know what i'm gonna get i don't know
918
00:49:14.420 --> 00:49:20.220
what they're gonna start speaking to me in yeah they're all similar enough german yeah very similar
919
00:49:20.422 --> 00:49:21.048
to Italian.
920
00:49:21.129 --> 00:49:21.917
Yeah, there you go.
921
00:49:22.800 --> 00:49:23.619
Sprechen Sie Deutsch?
922
00:49:24.308 --> 00:49:24.480
What?
923
00:49:29.184 --> 00:49:30.660
Do you speak any of those languages, Tom?
924
00:49:31.262 --> 00:49:32.074
No, not well.
925
00:49:32.155 --> 00:49:32.460
I speak
926
00:49:32.561 --> 00:49:34.600
very poor Spanish and Italian.
927
00:49:35.062 --> 00:49:36.480
I studied Italian, and then
928
00:49:36.520 --> 00:49:38.480
I self-studied Spanish, and
929
00:49:38.520 --> 00:49:40.440
have been to Spanish-speaking countries, but
930
00:49:40.440 --> 00:49:41.360
now I just confuse the two.
931
00:49:42.743 --> 00:49:44.320
Yeah, they overlap in your mind.
932
00:49:44.380 --> 00:49:45.720
I can see where that would be easy to do.
933
00:49:46.261 --> 00:49:47.371
Yeah, but they're close enough.
934
00:49:47.694 --> 00:49:48.360
French I make no
935
00:49:48.441 --> 00:49:48.886
effort to.
936
00:49:48.907 --> 00:49:49.859
I've been to France, and
937
00:49:50.442 --> 00:49:54.960
they don't even like it when you try so it's not worth trying at least the germans will give you
938
00:49:55.040 --> 00:49:59.200
some applaud for attempting and you know a little bit of encouragement like oh look baby's first
939
00:49:59.240 --> 00:50:03.080
german words look at him trying oh right yeah i was gonna say they're gonna be cynical i mean like
940
00:50:03.180 --> 00:50:07.879
be nice i guess it's like they were like oh thank you for trying you are very bad at this
941
00:50:08.602 --> 00:50:12.940
yeah exactly and then they speak english to you because they speak english perfectly
942
00:50:13.602 --> 00:50:19.640
right yeah yeah so it's easy enough okay so you used to work in uh at a monomena company
943
00:50:20.481 --> 00:50:22.620
Some people call this Fang or Mang or whatever else.
944
00:50:22.740 --> 00:50:25.280
We've decided to appropriate and make it Menominon now.
945
00:50:25.964 --> 00:50:26.920
Because there's more letters.
946
00:50:27.340 --> 00:50:30.740
This is a fun throwback to the Muppets, so on and so forth.
947
00:50:31.321 --> 00:50:34.300
So yes, you worked at Amazon and Facebook?
948
00:50:35.340 --> 00:50:35.457
Yeah.
949
00:50:36.389 --> 00:50:36.559
Okay.
950
00:50:37.164 --> 00:50:37.679
Tell us about that.
951
00:50:39.249 --> 00:50:39.740
You worked there?
952
00:50:40.022 --> 00:50:40.840
You don't work there anymore?
953
00:50:41.081 --> 00:50:41.540
End of story.
954
00:50:41.966 --> 00:50:42.138
Done.
955
00:50:42.261 --> 00:50:42.653
Good question.
956
00:50:42.960 --> 00:50:43.960
Those are factual statements.
957
00:50:44.745 --> 00:50:44.855
Yeah.
958
00:50:45.406 --> 00:50:46.039
I try to.
959
00:50:46.601 --> 00:50:54.760
You know, we do a lot of research at this show and we've got a team of literally zero people working day and night.
960
00:50:55.443 --> 00:50:56.899
But hey, it's a lot better than those.
961
00:50:57.869 --> 00:50:58.240
Oh my God.
962
00:50:58.340 --> 00:51:04.220
Better than those account managers that are all just chat TPT now who send you 41 messages that are all slight variations of the same thing.
963
00:51:04.760 --> 00:51:07.080
Dear first name, please, why have you not responded?
964
00:51:07.260 --> 00:51:08.799
We have an incredible opportunity for you.
965
00:51:09.604 --> 00:51:10.156
Yeah, for sure.
966
00:51:11.042 --> 00:51:12.960
Maybe you're busy, but are you not busy?
967
00:51:13.605 --> 00:51:15.320
feel free to click my Calendly
968
00:51:15.461 --> 00:51:17.280
or Cal.com link
969
00:51:17.441 --> 00:51:18.571
and set up time with me.
970
00:51:18.713 --> 00:51:19.500
Oh, I don't want to.
971
00:51:19.681 --> 00:51:20.359
Why do you have my name?
972
00:51:21.683 --> 00:51:22.580
Farming from LinkedIn.
973
00:51:23.684 --> 00:51:25.079
Let's talk about how terrible LinkedIn is.
974
00:51:25.862 --> 00:51:26.700
Just that it exists.
975
00:51:27.261 --> 00:51:28.800
It's a platform of lies.
976
00:51:29.380 --> 00:51:29.913
You must be
977
00:51:31.489 --> 00:51:32.899
your non-authentic self
978
00:51:33.585 --> 00:51:35.400
and be on there and be like, that created great
979
00:51:35.481 --> 00:51:35.888
value.
980
00:51:36.417 --> 00:51:36.600
Anyway.
981
00:51:37.421 --> 00:51:38.309
Sorry, this is devolving.
982
00:51:38.329 --> 00:51:39.500
That's all you say on everything.
983
00:51:40.186 --> 00:51:40.439
Yeah.
984
00:51:41.464 --> 00:51:45.800
I just want to talk about, I was having dinner with my family the other day and was thinking about business.
985
00:51:48.626 --> 00:51:48.974
Oh, man.
986
00:51:49.680 --> 00:51:52.740
You joke, but I remember one of our senior engineers.
987
00:51:52.820 --> 00:52:08.040
So when I started out at Amazon as a subsidiary at PillPack, and we had a front-end engineer who's like that, who spoke in a language that was like, you know, delivering business value through incremental improvements to blah, blah, blah.
988
00:52:08.542 --> 00:52:13.939
you know driving very high up in amazon now i was gonna say he's probably done well because of it
989
00:52:14.381 --> 00:52:20.440
you just robot your language so disingenuous in ways yeah yeah i had a uh like my manager's
990
00:52:20.520 --> 00:52:25.060
manager was like that like he would just talk and you would be like these are big words you're very
991
00:52:25.140 --> 00:52:30.459
smart yes and i could never do that i mean that's part of why i never was promoted i guess
992
00:52:31.404 --> 00:52:33.938
there you go you're the flip phone of the engineering world
993
00:52:36.064 --> 00:52:42.960
so you mean i'm the better option the tried and true it's subjective right i i don't think it's
994
00:52:42.980 --> 00:52:47.760
a bad option it's just depending it's just like being a nomad in the world it depends on what
995
00:52:47.780 --> 00:52:52.980
you want robbie that's true that's some good manager speak you know it's like you come to
996
00:52:53.020 --> 00:52:56.680
them and they're like depends on what you want in the world like yeah but i wanted a promotion like
997
00:52:56.740 --> 00:53:03.280
well it depends yeah it depends on you not sucking anymore i'm gonna need you to do less sucking and
998
00:53:03.360 --> 00:53:09.900
more doing how about that yeah and you're doing should also not suck yeah no it was actually
999
00:53:10.141 --> 00:53:15.020
nothing about work at amazon to get promoted you've heard many times it's just like is your
1000
00:53:15.060 --> 00:53:20.920
promo doc good enough did you do all of the amazon things like it has nothing to do with how much
1001
00:53:20.960 --> 00:53:26.200
work you ship you could ship like one line of code and they'd be like oh yes you can talk the talk
1002
00:53:26.742 --> 00:53:32.300
you can be promoted he's not better there was a book that i'd read and now i'm gonna forget the
1003
00:53:32.340 --> 00:53:34.128
name of it, but they had this concept.
1004
00:53:34.570 --> 00:53:36.780
Actually, it was towards the end and they were describing,
1005
00:53:36.900 --> 00:53:39.919
it was like return on, you know, the concept of return on capital invested, right?
1006
00:53:39.939 --> 00:53:40.140
If you're
1007
00:53:40.160 --> 00:53:43.280
building a business, it's like, if I give you a thousand bucks, can you give me a thousand,
1008
00:53:43.541 --> 00:53:44.445
100 and how quickly?
1009
00:53:44.867 --> 00:53:45.952
So how much am I going to get back?
1010
00:53:46.012 --> 00:53:47.800
It was, theirs was like return on politics
1011
00:53:47.921 --> 00:53:48.362
invested.
1012
00:53:48.824 --> 00:53:52.360
And so it was basically trying to get at that thing that everybody knows where it's like,
1013
00:53:52.360 --> 00:53:53.647
you're at that three person startup.
1014
00:53:54.009 --> 00:53:55.538
You know, what you can't do is politics.
1015
00:53:55.598 --> 00:53:55.880
Cause you know
1016
00:53:55.880 --> 00:53:59.380
what you can see immediately when there's three people setting a table together,
1017
00:53:59.822 --> 00:54:04.200
is someone bullshitting you you're like well did it work or not did you ship it is it there can i
1018
00:54:04.340 --> 00:54:09.480
use it and then you got one of these big companies and it's like there's a function of scale and the
1019
00:54:09.500 --> 00:54:14.340
number of managers and the way that communication works that return on politics invested is massive
1020
00:54:14.521 --> 00:54:19.980
it's because like if you're at the amazons or the facebooks or whatever if you go from senior to
1021
00:54:20.000 --> 00:54:24.513
staff staff to principal you go from like whatever 150 000 a year to 1.5 million you've like 10x
1022
00:54:27.100 --> 00:54:31.420
yourself when you make those big jumps what are you going to do at a startup you're going to be
1023
00:54:31.440 --> 00:54:36.240
like can i get promoted i'm the third engineer here promoted to what you're you're already the
1024
00:54:36.300 --> 00:54:40.455
third engineer like what do you want to be you know so there's no there's no return and there's
1025
00:54:41.720 --> 00:54:46.720
no need for politics so the value add is negative basically negative you're at a big company and
1026
00:54:46.720 --> 00:54:55.000
that's all there is it's just your personal benefit is maximized by your ability to communicate and
1027
00:54:55.281 --> 00:55:02.360
navigate the systems that they've built yeah and it's very hard to get promoted and then everyone
1028
00:55:02.501 --> 00:55:06.820
that does get promoted decides you know they're at that level should this person get promoted they
1029
00:55:06.860 --> 00:55:12.060
get to weigh in and it's like they think it's this big fancy thing so they don't want everyone to
1030
00:55:12.080 --> 00:55:19.320
have it so they like artificially like stamp everyone down and like yeah it's it's a shit show
1031
00:55:19.903 --> 00:55:23.260
and i'm not going to keep talking about that i do have one more question for you
1032
00:55:23.962 --> 00:55:30.140
if you were not in tech what other career would you choose and to clarify this could be you could
1033
00:55:30.240 --> 00:55:35.800
just magically get a skill like if it's a yeah you don't have to be yeah you're like i love basketball
1034
00:55:36.061 --> 00:55:41.020
i would have been a point guard you know i don't know oh man that would be pretty incredible i mean
1035
00:55:41.120 --> 00:55:46.300
i have dabbled in a thought about this my degree was in chemistry i have bounced back and forth
1036
00:55:46.982 --> 00:55:52.500
within the software world and outside of it is in this world i also get compensated enough that i
1037
00:55:52.540 --> 00:55:56.520
am happy because i would go with like being like some master carpenter or something you know like
1038
00:55:56.921 --> 00:56:03.640
oh yeah i would just suddenly have amazing skills to do like no no screw joinery you know no nail
1039
00:56:03.781 --> 00:56:07.760
joinery just all the wood pieces beautifully fit together like you see in those japanese
1040
00:56:08.142 --> 00:56:11.980
they've been doing it for like a thousand years they they know how to cut them to like a millimeter
1041
00:56:12.161 --> 00:56:16.160
precision by hand and then their furniture you come back a thousand years later and you're like
1042
00:56:16.220 --> 00:56:20.480
wow still there still standing that ikea desk i put it outside for a day and it you know melted
1043
00:56:20.600 --> 00:56:21.022
in the rain.
1044
00:56:21.563 --> 00:56:26.680
This thing, like it survived 15 earthquakes and three wildfires and 18 dynasties.
1045
00:56:27.640 --> 00:56:27.801
Yeah.
1046
00:56:27.861 --> 00:56:31.434
I mean, that's a, that's definitely a craft that lasts.
1047
00:56:32.036 --> 00:56:32.578
So sure.
1048
00:56:32.659 --> 00:56:32.859
Yeah.
1049
00:56:32.899 --> 00:56:33.060
I mean,
1050
00:56:33.100 --> 00:56:39.540
I think in, at this day, if you have that level of skill, you certainly should have the ability
1051
00:56:39.701 --> 00:56:41.166
to get the income for it.
1052
00:56:41.206 --> 00:56:41.427
Right.
1053
00:56:41.527 --> 00:56:45.240
Cause the people who can pay for quality can pay big money.
1054
00:56:46.102 --> 00:56:52.718
like yeah i would like a heirloom piece for my family you're gonna pay but that's 45 000 bed
1055
00:56:54.141 --> 00:57:00.737
45 000 bed that's an untapped market you know they're 45 000 frames announcing 45 000 beds
1056
00:57:01.840 --> 00:57:09.520
dot ai that's my new startup yeah right exactly designed by ai and only purchased by php developers
1057
00:57:10.785 --> 00:57:15.060
i think you're describing the velvet rope economy it's like this this new world that we live in
1058
00:57:15.140 --> 00:57:20.940
where people make good money catering to the uber rich and they just do crazy ridiculous things like
1059
00:57:21.482 --> 00:57:27.600
make mega yachts or 45 000 bed frames because there's someone who's crazy rich who's just like
1060
00:57:27.640 --> 00:57:32.060
yeah i want that and there's enough of them there's enough millionaires to really like get
1061
00:57:32.120 --> 00:57:39.160
into that that space there's the 20 000 phone that just looks like a yeah i saw this a recent
1062
00:57:39.584 --> 00:57:40.814
unboxing of a $20,000 phone.
1063
00:57:42.160 --> 00:57:42.980
Is it made of gold?
1064
00:57:43.601 --> 00:57:44.460
No, no, it wasn't.
1065
00:57:44.681 --> 00:57:45.840
It came in nice packaging.
1066
00:57:46.440 --> 00:57:48.679
I guess it had like leather on the back of it
1067
00:57:48.881 --> 00:57:51.240
and in general kind of looked like any other...
1068
00:57:51.240 --> 00:57:52.700
But it's just an Android phone, I guess then?
1069
00:57:53.300 --> 00:57:53.595
Probably.
1070
00:57:54.000 --> 00:57:55.779
I think it was called like Ventu or I don't know,
1071
00:57:55.981 --> 00:57:56.560
something like that.
1072
00:57:56.560 --> 00:57:57.259
You should look this up.
1073
00:57:57.401 --> 00:57:58.133
$20,000 cell phone.
1074
00:57:58.660 --> 00:58:00.812
So it's quite the opposite of a $15 flip phone.
1075
00:58:02.462 --> 00:58:05.860
But I think the technology isn't anything better
1076
00:58:06.770 --> 00:58:07.600
than what we have now.
1077
00:58:07.840 --> 00:58:20.800
I think technologically it's like the nicest Samsung or whatever or iPhone, but it comes in really fancy packaging and it has like a built-in leather cover or something.
1078
00:58:21.601 --> 00:58:23.560
It comes pre-installed with the I Am Rich app.
1079
00:58:24.140 --> 00:58:24.227
Yes.
1080
00:58:25.245 --> 00:58:25.939
That's all you need.
1081
00:58:26.684 --> 00:58:28.120
People see it and they know, oh, okay.
1082
00:58:28.240 --> 00:58:28.354
Yeah.
1083
00:58:28.844 --> 00:58:29.140
You know?
1084
00:58:29.546 --> 00:58:29.740
Yeah.
1085
00:58:30.142 --> 00:58:30.779
That's all you want.
1086
00:58:31.320 --> 00:58:32.120
There's a market there.
1087
00:58:32.460 --> 00:58:34.280
Someone should make the I Am Rich app for CloudPhone.
1088
00:58:34.340 --> 00:58:35.119
That's a great idea.
1089
00:58:35.767 --> 00:58:35.939
Yeah.
1090
00:58:36.040 --> 00:58:40.780
Except for the fact that we don't actually have the ability to charge for apps and the users definitely don't have enough money to pay for them.
1091
00:58:41.300 --> 00:58:45.560
But you could still make an app that is just a button that says, I am rich so that people feel good.
1092
00:58:46.482 --> 00:58:50.020
And then when it opens, it just says, in spirit, I'm rich in spirit.
1093
00:58:50.200 --> 00:58:53.140
It just puts up a Bitcoin address and says, please pay us.
1094
00:58:56.223 --> 00:58:57.093
Pay us real fake money.
1095
00:58:57.901 --> 00:58:58.258
I am rich.
1096
00:58:58.540 --> 00:58:58.780
Yeah.
1097
00:58:59.604 --> 00:59:00.300
I am donating.
1098
00:59:00.420 --> 00:59:01.760
The sublime text of apps.
1099
00:59:04.384 --> 00:59:04.574
Anyway.
1100
00:59:04.700 --> 00:59:04.917
Yeah.
1101
00:59:05.422 --> 00:59:05.603
Yeah.
1102
00:59:05.764 --> 00:59:06.046
All right.
1103
00:59:06.106 --> 00:59:08.620
Well, Chuck already knows, but it is dinner time for me.
1104
00:59:09.142 --> 00:59:09.263
Yeah.
1105
00:59:09.283 --> 00:59:11.340
What do you want to plug before we end, Tom?
1106
00:59:12.261 --> 00:59:13.627
Oh, what will I plug?
1107
00:59:13.728 --> 00:59:16.320
I mean, obviously, Flap Phone, make an app, make my day.
1108
00:59:16.681 --> 00:59:19.920
It's just there's a world that you can bring over to flip phones or just try them out.
1109
00:59:20.040 --> 00:59:29.660
I think you forget that there's a huge market of people in places like South Asia and Africa that would love to be able to access a number of services.
1110
00:59:30.161 --> 00:59:31.708
But the world isn't designed for them.
1111
00:59:32.270 --> 00:59:34.520
And if nothing else, you know, at a break point.
1112
00:59:34.960 --> 00:59:37.854
blow everyone's mind and throw in a 160 or a 320 pixel breakpoint
1113
00:59:39.241 --> 00:59:42.959
into your Tailwind setup and see if you can make your website
1114
00:59:43.403 --> 00:59:44.500
scale down to that level.
1115
00:59:44.660 --> 00:59:48.160
If you need a reference, try an Apple Watch and see if it works there.
1116
00:59:49.042 --> 00:59:50.540
Then figure out how to make it work without a touchscreen.
1117
00:59:50.960 --> 00:59:53.120
And then now you've got a feature phone app.
1118
00:59:53.740 --> 00:59:54.940
Yeah, so that'd be good.
1119
00:59:55.200 --> 00:59:56.053
I'm also reading...
1120
00:59:56.580 --> 00:59:58.500
What's the URL for CloudFone real quick?
1121
00:59:58.906 --> 00:59:59.699
Oh, of course.
1122
01:00:00.160 --> 01:00:02.420
CloudFone is cloudphone.tech.
1123
01:00:03.201 --> 01:00:04.900
So you can learn more there.
1124
01:00:04.960 --> 01:00:07.100
It's got a link to our developer website documentation.
1125
01:00:07.201 --> 01:00:09.260
That makes sense because I went to cloudphone.com
1126
01:00:09.342 --> 01:00:09.999
and it doesn't load.
1127
01:00:11.763 --> 01:00:13.300
See, this is why I ask these questions.
1128
01:00:13.481 --> 01:00:14.760
Sorry, and you were saying you were reading?
1129
01:00:15.461 --> 01:00:17.880
I was just thinking a book that I started reading.
1130
01:00:18.240 --> 01:00:20.720
I've done a lot of reading on the Kindle of all places,
1131
01:00:21.064 --> 01:00:22.500
not using the browser super often,
1132
01:00:23.022 --> 01:00:25.337
mostly just going to Libby and sending books over,
1133
01:00:25.960 --> 01:00:28.860
but got The Inevitable by Kevin Kelly.
1134
01:00:29.340 --> 01:00:32.659
I'm not fully on board yet with the concept of inevitable-ism,
1135
01:00:32.921 --> 01:00:37.560
this idea that like because tech is so amazing it had to happen and you know software had to
1136
01:00:37.620 --> 01:00:42.900
eat the world the smartphone had to consume all of our waking time but he certainly makes a lot
1137
01:00:42.920 --> 01:00:48.420
of compelling predictions said it sounds like sam altman wrote it just because he's like ai will
1138
01:00:48.520 --> 01:00:55.420
take over everything he maybe he donated i don't know it'd be yeah sorry i didn't mean to derail
1139
01:00:55.440 --> 01:01:00.700
you there no no i think it's a it's a fascinating because it was written in 2016 and kevin kelly's
1140
01:01:00.700 --> 01:01:05.440
done a lot of interesting work uh he was one of the original editors to co-founding editors to
1141
01:01:05.500 --> 01:01:12.100
wired back in the 90s you know when the internet was uh just becoming sort of a thing it was
1142
01:01:12.783 --> 01:01:16.780
you know like chuck was describing you had html forms actually that may not have even been there
1143
01:01:16.840 --> 01:01:26.100
yet i mean was that html1 did that even have it's a form yeah it had frames or no frames at some
1144
01:01:26.140 --> 01:01:32.220
point i know that right yeah i don't know i think it might have had like yeah i think uh it definitely
1145
01:01:32.380 --> 01:01:39.600
had anchors and it had the blink tag which is probably the best tag ever marquee or blink
1146
01:01:40.242 --> 01:01:46.540
that should have been a hot take yeah both doesn't marquee hasn't been deprecated for like 20 years
1147
01:01:46.640 --> 01:01:52.760
but it still works yeah yes correct all of those things anyway i don't know without reference
1148
01:01:52.840 --> 01:01:58.160
whether forms were there but i think form element was there so and i think it would have just been
1149
01:01:58.300 --> 01:02:03.300
input type button in it though he did not have a button element for sure you would have needed it
1150
01:02:03.380 --> 01:02:07.600
wouldn't you a submit button and then yeah it would have been input type submit or something
1151
01:02:07.660 --> 01:02:12.340
like that or input type yeah that's what it would have been i think it was that instead of button
1152
01:02:13.183 --> 01:02:18.620
there definitely was a time where there wasn't button yet anyway i digress kevin kelly read the
1153
01:02:18.620 --> 01:02:18.881
book.
1154
01:02:19.443 --> 01:02:20.647
Get interested about less.
1155
01:02:21.309 --> 01:02:24.660
I think that's less being more kind of thing, not less, less.
1156
01:02:25.400 --> 01:02:25.782
Yeah.
1157
01:02:25.802 --> 01:02:27.492
Just know that there's an entire world out there.
1158
01:02:27.532 --> 01:02:28.960
The internet is connecting on a very
1159
01:02:29.081 --> 01:02:31.049
different, a very different plane.
1160
01:02:31.511 --> 01:02:32.977
Even in India, I thought this was fascinating.
1161
01:02:33.198 --> 01:02:33.640
The number of
1162
01:02:33.660 --> 01:02:37.540
websites that don't work because they have so many mobile networks that are IPv6 only.
1163
01:02:38.941 --> 01:02:44.879
They don't even put up NAT64 so that you've got no backwards compatibility layer.
1164
01:02:44.979 --> 01:02:45.380
They just don't
1165
01:02:45.420 --> 01:02:49.560
bother why do it you know google works youtube works facebook works but you know it doesn't
1166
01:02:49.600 --> 01:02:56.520
work it's like half the websites in the world wow interesting good to know yeah all right well
1167
01:02:57.403 --> 01:03:01.600
yeah thanks everyone for listening if you liked it please subscribe and we will catch you next time
1168
01:03:05.652 --> 01:03:07.520
just kidding we'll play that in an actual outro
1169
01:03:09.466 --> 01:03:13.720
you've been watching whiskey web and whatnot recorded in front of a live studio audience
1170
01:03:14.023 --> 01:03:15.340
What the fuck are you talking about, Chuck?
1171
01:03:16.401 --> 01:03:17.279
Enjoyed the show?
1172
01:03:17.683 --> 01:03:18.060
Subscribe.
1173
01:03:18.961 --> 01:03:20.600
You know people don't pay attention to these, right?
1174
01:03:21.580 --> 01:03:25.760
Head to whiskey.fun for merch and to join our Discord server.
1175
01:03:26.684 --> 01:03:27.140
I'm serious.
1176
01:03:27.341 --> 01:03:29.520
It's like 2% of people who actually click these links.
1177
01:03:30.041 --> 01:03:34.040
And don't forget to leave us a five-star review and tell your friends about the show.
1178
01:03:34.629 --> 01:03:35.040
All right, dude.
1179
01:03:35.142 --> 01:03:35.660
I'm out of here.
1180
01:03:36.585 --> 01:03:37.220
Still got it.