STEM-Ability Perception vs. Potential: Dismantling Barriers in Education

In Part Two of the STEM-Ability series on The Odyssey of Care, host Erin Croyle and guest Dr. John Fife (Director of the Center for Innovation in STEM Education at VCU) unpack how perceptions - and misperceptions - shape educational opportunities for students with disabilities.

Drawing from both lived experiences as parents and professional expertise, Erin and Dr. Fife dive into the systemic challenges plaguing special education and STEM fields: from underfunded mandates like IDEA to deficit-based models that fixate on limitations rather than strengths. They explore why standard "inclusion" isn't enough and why creating a genuine sense of belonging, nurturing self-determination, and holding high-expectations are critical to helping neurodivergent and disabled students build their own identity and thrive.

What You'll Learn:

• Identity Construction: Why self-advocacy and a strong sense of identity protect students against bias and othering.

• Belonging vs. Inclusion: Why true connection matters far more than just placing a student in a classroom.

• Systemic Hurdles: How underfunded mandates and under-resourced educators create systemic gaps for families.

• Strength-Based Support: Shifting from deficit-driven labels to talent-focused frameworks in STEM and general education.

Show Notes and Links:

Listen to STEM-Ability Episode 1: Designing a Future Where Everyone Fits

Learn more about:

Center for Innovation in STEM Education or CISTEME

Dr. John Fife

VCU RRTC: Rehabilitation Research and Training Center

TRANSCRIPT:

01;00;13;21 - 01;00;16;18 Erin Croyle Welcome to the Odyssey of Care.

01;00;16;21 - 01;00;19;13 Erin Croyle I'm Erin Croyle, the creator and host.

01;00;19;15 - 01;00;29;23 Erin Croyle The Odyssey is the same as it ever was, just with a slightly shorter name. This podcast explores how our lives change when a loved one has a disability.

01;00;29;26 - 01;00;32;13 Erin Croyle I was lucky enough to head down this less traveled road

01;00;32;19 - 01;00;36;06 Erin Croyle when my first child was born with down syndrome in 2010.

01;00;36;09 - 01;00;39;26 Erin Croyle At the time, I was a journalist working in Southeast Asia.

01;00;39;29 - 01;00;45;28 Erin Croyle My career and life shifted dramatically after Arlo and then his two siblings entered the picture.

01;00;46;01 - 01;00;50;22 Erin Croyle Now I'm a communication specialist determined to help people with disabilities

01;00;50;25 - 01;00;51;24 Erin Croyle and their families

01;00;51;24 - 01;00;56;15 Erin Croyle get the help, support and validation they need.

01;00;56;18 - 01;01;00;16 Erin Croyle This podcast explores the triumphs and hardships we face.

01;01;00;19 - 01;01;06;09 Erin Croyle We celebrate the joys that the odyssey of parenting, caregiving, and disability bring.

01;01;06;12 - 01;01;09;04 Erin Croyle we don't shy away from the tough stuff.

01;01;09;06 - 01;01;16;11 Erin Croyle Navigating education and transitioning to adulthood is at the top of the tough list for many.

01;01;16;13 - 01;01;19;00 Erin Croyle part two of our Stem ability series,

01;01;19;07 - 01;01;23;09 Erin Croyle which is doing a deep dive into an exciting new initiative

01;01;23;12 - 01;01;27;04 Erin Croyle to improve employment outcomes for individuals with disabilities

01;01;27;07 - 01;01;28;25 Erin Croyle through evidence based training,

01;01;28;28 - 01;01;30;21 Erin Croyle emerging technologies,

01;01;30;23 - 01;01;32;27 Erin Croyle strategic employer partnerships.

01;01;33;00 - 01;01;39;21 Erin Croyle We're going to explore the role perceptions or perhaps misperceptions play in all of this.

01;01;39;24 - 01;01;42;17 Erin Croyle Joining me again is Doctor John

01;01;42;19 - 01;01;49;29 Erin Croyle associate research professor of Stem education and director of the center for innovation in Stem Education

01;01;50;06 - 01;01;58;12 Erin Croyle at Virginia Commonwealth University.

01;01;58;15 - 01;02;01;01 Erin Croyle Doctor Fife, welcome

01;02;01;04 - 01;02;03;13 John Fife Thank you so much. thank you for having me.

01;02;03;13 - 01;02;09;17 Erin Croyle For anyone who wants your full origin story, I highly recommend listening to our first episode in this series,

01;02;09;24 - 01;02;11;00 Erin Croyle which I'll link in the show notes.

01;02;11;06 - 01;02;18;01 Erin Croyle to summarize, can you give us a brief overview of what brought you here and your role with this initiative,

01;02;18;04 - 01;02;50;22 John Fife Absolutely. So as I mentioned before, I was born and raised in Trinidad and Tobago. And of course, Trinidad was impacted by colonialism and Trinidad was colonized by the French, the Spanish and then the English and gained its independence in 1962. And I think that's relevant to my story, because the story of colonialism is a story of the privileged versus the non privilege, and colonialism is perhaps the best universally understood tool of marginalization to really think about it in that way.

01;02;50;24 - 01;03;25;24 John Fife I was raised to understand how my nation was constructed and what that means for people living in various communities in that nation. So coming to the to the United States, it showed me another side of modernization, one that was focused perhaps more so on race. So I had to learn the tools to kind of protect inner being and my soul from the implications of hatred and the attempted othering that I sensed in the spaces that I entered.

01;03;25;26 - 01;04;04;05 John Fife So, for example, I was a student at a high school that was a pivotal part of the bussing era and experience just a lot of sometimes subtle, sometimes not so subtle. Bias and and prejudice had a teacher who, in class said that certain ethnic groups should not go to college, that they should really focus on labor. And yeah, you know, so you hear those things and again, you have to find a way of protecting yourself.

01;04;04;07 - 01;04;07;29 John Fife But what it also does is it also makes you very familiar,

01;04;07;29 - 01;04;38;16 John Fife with marginalization. And so when I had my kid and learned more about ADHD and kind of saw some of the way people would kind of treat him and treat us in various situations, it brought back that feeling of othering. And I began to see kind of some of the similarities in my story and in his story, even when you're very different.

01;04;38;18 - 01;04;51;13 John Fife But it helped me to understand how, as a parent, I had to help him and other kids who struggle with disabilities to kind of protect themselves and to prepare themselves for the world that they would live in.

01;04;51;13 - 01;04;54;17 Erin Croyle given your experiences both professionally and lived?

01;04;54;20 - 01;04;58;12 Erin Croyle What do you see as the biggest hurdles facing students with disabilities

01;04;58;15 - 01;05;04;23 Erin Croyle when accessing both Stem, which is science, technology, engineering and math, and a lot of times art,

01;05;04;26 - 01;05;06;22 Erin Croyle also learning in general.

01;05;06;25 - 01;05;16;05 John Fife As the fascinating question, because it's really two questions in one. It's, you know, you asked about, you know, lived and professional.

01;05;16;07 - 01;05;24;16 John Fife Hurdles. And the first thing I think about from my lived experience is.

01;05;24;18 - 01;05;45;21 John Fife The hurdle of how do I construct my identity. And I think this is a really important piece that students with disabilities need to learn, but they have to be supported in learning this. All of us have to construct our identity. All of us have to answer the question, who am I?

01;05;45;23 - 01;05;49;18 John Fife But how we do that becomes really important.

01;05;49;20 - 01;05;55;15 John Fife We need to have the supports in place to support students with disabilities in approaching an

01;05;55;17 - 01;06;16;09 John Fife and addressing that question, I think students have to be able to love and appreciate themselves so that the actions that they take are based on who they are, and not a reaction to the bias and the hatred and the lack of understanding that they experienced.

01;06;16;09 - 01;06;52;24 John Fife And that becomes really important. And I think this is one of the reasons why the grant is so important. So that's more the personal side, I think how students construct their identity becomes a major hurdle to to success. And then I think there's some other things that we know are hurdles. When we look at our system right now, we understand that we have to maintain high expectations for students with disabilities, but with high expectations, we also have to have appropriate supports.

01;06;52;27 - 01;07;16;14 John Fife So students with disabilities often perform better when adults communicate a belief in their capabilities. We know that. So we can't just have high expectations. We have to have high supports. We have to focus on strengths as well as needs. So it has to be a strength based approach. We have to recognize the talents that students have, what are their interests.

01;07;16;19 - 01;07;45;06 John Fife And it can't be based exclusively on a deficit based model, what they don't have. And oftentimes when we view students with disabilities and we see the way the system does, it's really a deficit based model. And so we have to really correct that in our approach. So many other hurdles. I think one of the most basic hurdles that I alluded to this earlier is just building strong relationships.

01;07;45;08 - 01;08;21;02 John Fife You know, the research consistently identifies positive relationships as a key factor in the success of students with disabilities. So listening to students perspectives, showing empathy and respect, and providing consistent encouragement, these are all hurdles I believe that students with disabilities face, because oftentimes the adults around them and the system that they're in may not think about that in ways that we need to.

01;08;21;07 - 01;08;56;18 John Fife We may pathologies students with disabilities instead of providing support. Yeah. So I think there are a lot I think about partnering with families. That becomes a critical piece. Oftentimes families may feel really isolated and not included. And even in the way we do research oftentimes, I mean, sometimes research can be on this level that is so high that we're not really speaking directly to the needs of families, and we're not including families enough in what we're doing.

01;08;56;18 - 01;09;19;26 John Fife That can be a hurdle as well, where we create a gap between administrators and researchers and parents and students and their needs. So I think those are some of the areas and some of the hurdles that that students really have to face. And as adults who are supporters of those students, we have to to help them to be able to clear those rooms.

01;09;19;28 - 01;09;20;04 Erin Croyle so.

01;09;20;04 - 01;09;30;04 Erin Croyle Much of what you just said just just sparked a lot in me because it's.

01;09;30;06 - 01;09;36;29 Erin Croyle So incredibly hard navigating this as a human being. And,

01;09;37;02 - 01;10;04;28 Erin Croyle I think about my own journey and how I'm a completely different parent that I would have been had I not had my first child be born with down syndrome. And when you're talking about, you know, you mentioned deficits and we have this deficit based model where it's this dichotomy where in order to get services, we have to talk about all of the things that are quote unquote wrong with our child or, you know, the student.

01;10;05;01 - 01;10;26;28 Erin Croyle But when it comes to education and talking about our children, we should be talking about the good things. It's really complicated. And I think also, you know, such a barrier to all of this is that there's so much stigma that comes with disability. Parents don't want to categorize your kid. The labels that come with being able to get services and extra supports and even special education itself

01;10;27;04 - 01;10;35;26 Erin Croyle has such a bad rap instead of embracing such a powerful tool.

01;10;35;28 - 01;10;51;12 John Fife I think about how long it took me to even broach the issue of medication. You know, it was a real struggle for me and being in the field of psychology and thinking to myself, oh boy, what is this going to mean for my kid?

01;10;51;12 - 01;11;08;13 John Fife And it was really a struggle, and it's really difficult. And you know this when you know, you get a call and you know, it's the school and it's kind

01;11;08;15 - 01;11;13;07 John Fife Yeah. And it's it's such a struggle and it's a struggle for a parent.

01;11;13;07 - 01;11;15;01 John Fife But think about

01;11;15;03 - 01;11;23;04 Erin Croyle Right?

01;11;23;07 - 01;11;41;07 John Fife we have in our culture and and just the difficulty of living in the system that we, that we, we tend to live in. And I don't want to sound super negative. I think there are a lot of positive things that are happening, but I don't think happens if we continue to work, that only happens if we can continue to advocate.

01;11;41;08 - 01;12;08;08 John Fife That only happens if we continue to push up against the individuals who try to take us back to the olden days where, you know, if you're perfect intellectually, we can use you. And if you're not, you know, you get pushed to the side. So, yeah, you know, this, this there's so many ways that kids can thrive. But that sense of belonging, like you mentioned, it becomes the really the most important thing, you know, am I accepted?

01;12;08;08 - 01;12;22;15 John Fife Where am I accepted? Where is my place in the school system? And finding people that really understand that and the people that can advocate for me as a student, it becomes really critical.

01;12;22;17 - 01;12;23;17 Erin Croyle It does. And I think.

01;12;23;17 - 01;12;25;11 Erin Croyle I think it's important that,

01;12;25;13 - 01;12;46;11 Erin Croyle and this is why I always say in my intro to these two, to the podcast, that we don't shy away from the tough stuff. Pretending like it's all roses is never going to affect change. And so we have to point out what we're up against. And also, I hope that listeners understand that we're pointing this out so you know that you're not alone.

01;12;46;13 - 01;12;53;02 Erin Croyle You know, you and I are two professionals deeply involved in this work. And we experience,

01;12;53;05 - 01;13;05;01 Erin Croyle hurdles in our own lives. And I think that that is one of the most interesting things I've found in my journey is even the people who are coaching other parents on how to navigate this have their own struggles.

01;13;05;01 - 01;13;09;15 Erin Croyle And honestly, you know, so often on this podcast, I reflect on my own journey.

01;13;09;15 - 01;13;40;19 Erin Croyle And for this series itself, I had to reach out to a lot of other parents because there's some levels of education that just are not accessible to all students, no matter what accommodations or modifications there are. And I need to be really transparent here, because this is a really hard thing to say. And if someone would have said this ten years ago, I would have been furious because I, I don't want to put my child or any child in some category where you're saying that they can't.

01;13;40;20 - 01;13;49;04 Erin Croyle And in some ways, I do still believe that they can. We just don't know how to help them access it or we don't. You know, we're just not there yet.

01;13;49;07 - 01;13;50;03 Erin Croyle But also,

01;13;50;06 - 01;13;52;06 Erin Croyle as you were just alluding to, there's just this

01;13;52;12 - 01;13;56;22 Erin Croyle such a focus on productivity in our country where it's,

01;13;56;25 - 01;13;59;28 Erin Croyle that's the most important thing instead of just being or,

01;14;00;03 - 01;14;03;13 Erin Croyle living to your full potential or finding contentment

01;14;03;14 - 01;14;10;09 Erin Croyle at the same time, you know, there are students who are indeed capable and may be interested but don't have the right support or right tools.

01;14;10;09 - 01;14;34;09 Erin Croyle And and just recently, an educator shared this perfect analogy with me. So if you're using a hammer when what you really need is a screwdriver, it's not going to work. So tell me, how can educators, caregivers, and other adults in our children's lives tell the difference? Because more often than not, a student really is capable, and they're just not getting the support or tools they need to succeed.

01;14;34;12 - 01;14;58;16 John Fife Yeah. And you know, I one of the things that you shared a second ago really struck me. And I just think about oftentimes as a parent, and one of my struggles is having to let go

01;14;58;18 - 01;15;00;02 John Fife that they have,

01;15;00;05 - 01;15;08;03 John Fife and allowing that kid to be able to shape their own destiny.

01;15;08;05 - 01;15;44;02 John Fife So, okay, maybe you believe that your kid is great in this area and you see that, but they decide, you know what? I actually prefer this area right here. And I think that just becomes something that's really important because as parents, we are their number one support. You know, in spite of the fact that we may have other supports in school and in the community, I think that's one thing that really needs to be mentioned, being able to allow that kid to kind of create their own space for success.

01;15;44;05 - 01;15;47;28 John Fife Yeah, that I just

01;15;48;00 - 01;15;53;17 Erin Croyle Yeah.

01;15;53;20 - 01;16;06;26 John Fife how do educators and caregivers and adults, how are we able to tell the difference?

01;16;06;29 - 01;16;24;29 John Fife That is really a good question.

01;16;25;02 - 01;16;28;22 John Fife Are we?

01;16;28;24 - 01;16;39;17 John Fife Able to comply with the needs that we hear coming from those students?

01;16;39;19 - 01;16;58;09 John Fife Yeah, I don't know. Maybe maybe you can reframe the question and help me a bit because that's what I'm stuck on. I'm stuck on, you know, oftentimes seeing students being able to communicate what they need and then the experts around them

01;16;58;11 - 01;17;00;10 Erin Croyle Yeah. You know, it's funny.

01;17;00;14 - 01;17;08;21 Erin Croyle I don't know how to reframe the question because I think that's just it. I'm not sure there is an answer. You know,

01;17;08;24 - 01;17;26;12 Erin Croyle how can we help students succeed? How can we? It's this thing where self-determination is so important, but we also have to help children, students realize what they're capable of and give them the confidence and the tools.

01;17;26;12 - 01;17;29;00 Erin Croyle And I think that,

01;17;29;02 - 01;17;51;11 Erin Croyle the structures we have in place just automatically default to the kids who appear to be paying attention. And so when you have neurodivergent or disability and whatever at play, if you have an educator who sees a student doodling in, just assumes that they're not paying attention, when in fact the doodling is a tool for them to pay attention.

01;17;51;14 - 01;17;52;29 Erin Croyle You know, I think it's part of,

01;17;52;29 - 01;18;03;12 Erin Croyle we're talking about the tools. I think it's part of enlightening educators as to learning looks different for each student. Paying attention looks different for each student.

01;18;03;16 - 01;18;16;23 John Fife Yeah. And I think this is part of what we're trying to do with our grant. And the grant does a lot. But I think the teacher preparation and professional development part for the case and counselors is a critical part,

01;18;16;25 - 01;18;18;14 John Fife because so many

01;18;18;17 - 01;18;31;29 John Fife teachers feel underprepared in terms of their instruction for modifications that need to happen to instruction for students with disabilities.

01;18;32;05 - 01;18;54;11 John Fife We know that many schools lack sufficient funding to provide specialized instructional materials and assistive technologies. So, yeah, you know, I think we need more spaces like what the grant is trying to provide, where we can connect a school administrators with

01;18;54;17 - 01;19;01;16 John Fife vocational counselors, with parents, and so that parents can feel like,

01;19;01;18 - 01;19;04;14 John Fife you know, the system is really trying to support them.

01;19;04;16 - 01;19;27;25 John Fife And I've spoken to a lot of parents who who don't feel that they don't feel that way. They feel as though their kid is given kind of inappropriate educational goals. And it's kind of like, well, this is the limit that your kid has and that's it. And parents are like, well, wait a minute, my my student has more.

01;19;27;25 - 01;19;52;29 John Fife My kid is smart and these are the things that they can do. So being able to kind of communicate that message to administrators and then administrators needing the funding and the policies that can then help them stand with parents, that really becomes the big struggle. I think that's a part of, you know, the difference between the hammer and the screwdriver.

01;19;53;00 - 01;20;01;19 John Fife It's this systemic issue. And we have to really.

01;20;01;21 - 01;20;08;18 John Fife Address each level of the system. We can't ignore one or the

01;20;08;20 - 01;20;12;14 Erin Croyle That's kind of what I was going to go into next.

01;20;12;14 - 01;20;35;04 Erin Croyle know, systemic change is one of the biggest challenges. And, you know, one of the things I talk about in many aspects of my world of disability advocacy is so the individuals with Disabilities Education Act is 1975, right? It's 51 years old.

01;20;35;04 - 01;21;01;28 Erin Croyle And when that was first passed by Congress, it was supposed to fund 40%, and it has never exceeded 13%. It's hovering around there. So here we have where this this federal mandate rightfully was put in schools to make sure all students had a free and appropriate public education in a least restrictive environment, but yet has never been funded adequately.

01;21;01;28 - 01;21;35;07 Erin Croyle And then public schools are put in this role where students can and should be included, but they're not funded properly. And so one of the biggest systemic challenges I see is the just absolute flawed in and inequitable funding of public education. And then also the other one I see, and I'm curious of your thoughts, is that in higher education, these teachers are educators are not getting any training or understanding of what special education is.

01;21;35;07 - 01;22;21;13 Erin Croyle Even with a special education degree, the courses are so minimal, and special education law is so open to interpretation that I mean parents, caregivers, students, you know, it's a completely different experience from year to year, teacher to teacher, school to school, state to state, like it is just there's no rhyme or reason to how to navigate this ever.

01;22;21;16 - 01;22;25;00 John Fife Right?

01;22;25;03 - 01;22;35;20 John Fife specialists where I can tell you there's such a lack that we're always trying to find people who are trained to work within the school system.

01;22;35;20 - 01;23;01;11 John Fife However, the people who have the desire to do that, when they go into that system, they realize some of those same flaws that you mentioned. And, you know, they may decide on another career, they may decide on something that may have better pay, more sufficient supports for their career. And I think that's what we're seeing. It's almost like we're seeing, it's like a fishing net, right?

01;23;01;11 - 01;23;24;12 John Fife You can put water in it all you want, but outcomes the water in so many times we see that shortage as being part of the systemic problem. And you also mentioned again teacher preparation to support students with complex learning and behavioral needs.

01;23;24;14 - 01;23;33;24 John Fife I mean think about the difference between 13 and 40%.

01;23;33;26 - 01;23;51;24 John Fife tells us that the area that it's stuck at right there is the policy area, because those funds would make such a difference in terms of the the equity and disproportionality that we see in addressing and helping

01;23;51;27 - 01;24;10;06 Erin Croyle Yeah. And when you think about, I mean, I just think about the way that you get an IEP or a 504 and how complicated it is and the reluctance to do, you know, the amount of families I meet, who's whose child has,

01;24;10;07 - 01;24;18;18 Erin Croyle behavioral needs and they don't know what a BA, which is a functional behavioral assessment or a bit, which is a behavioral intervention plan.

01;24;18;18 - 01;24;23;04 Erin Croyle They don't even know what it is because schools don't typically want to do them

01;24;23;07 - 01;24;30;23 Erin Croyle because they cost and it's data collection. But these are things that could be put in place to support a student. And they don't know what it is because,

01;24;30;26 - 01;24;41;11 Erin Croyle I have this hard thing where I'm mad at schools, right? Because they're not doing right by the kids, but the schools have their hands tied because they don't have the funds to do what's right for the kids.

01;24;41;17 - 01;25;02;21 John Fife that's it. So it's really when it comes down to it, you know, we can't put all the blame on the schools because and I can tell you my own experience as far as school psychologists are concerned, you know, I mean there'll be a school psychologist maybe working with four different schools. Now, think about that. That means they may be at a school once or twice a week.

01;25;02;23 - 01;25;11;17 John Fife And when we think about

01;25;11;19 - 01;26;03;09 Erin Croyle Right?

01;26;03;11 - 01;26;04;04 John Fife Absolutely.

01;26;04;04 - 01;26;30;24 Erin Croyle And I'm so excited for it. And I have a lot more questions, including one that we were planning to get to today. But I think we already hit time. And what I think we should do instead is I think we're going to do an entire episode on transitions. What do you think? Because I think, yeah, because I think that in and of itself is just a 20 minute deep dive right there, because that is such a pain point.

01;26;30;24 - 01;26;52;05 Erin Croyle And I think dedicating an entire episode to that would be really useful. And I also, I mean, we I feel like we just talked about some of the systemic issues, like public school funding. I wonder as well, like that's something else that we could very much touch on.

01;26;52;08 - 01;27;10;20 John Fife different directions that we'll have to go in. We have to go right back to some of the earliest, earlier things that we talked about in terms of belonging, in terms of a struggle with discrimination and hatred and race. And there are a lot of things that we may have to

01;27;10;22 - 01;27;22;00 Erin Croyle Yeah, I want to, I want to, I guess, to wrap this episode up though, because we're kind of talking about receptions and misperceptions.

01;27;22;03 - 01;27;47;29 Erin Croyle I'm going to throw one at you and I'm trying to even just make make it make sense in my own brain. And I when I do this, I want to just say like, this is what neurodiversity is, live in action because my brain is moving around so rapidly, but I cannot spit out what I want to say. And I think it's important just to say that out loud, because I'm a 40 something adult and I'm having a hard time doing that.

01;27;47;29 - 01;28;10;24 Erin Croyle So think about students who might want to say something and are struggling in a classroom, but don't have the fully formed prefrontal cortex to be able to even communicate that they're struggling to say what they want to say. And then we have teachers that are also struggling and managing a classroom of however many students with so many needs.

01;28;10;25 - 01;28;15;04 Erin Croyle So all of that is to say,

01;28;15;06 - 01;28;20;24 Erin Croyle And this is out of left field. But when we're talking about perceptions and misperceptions, if you could just

01;28;21;01 - 01;28;32;24 Erin Croyle in the meantime, while we're figuring this out, what would you tell educators, caregivers, whatever when dealing with a student with complex behavioral needs in a classroom?

01;28;32;27 - 01;30;22;04 John Fife I think for me, it goes back to the issue of thriving, how do people I

01;30;22;06 - 01;30;33;25 John Fife And those are things that we can we can do that because that is based on

01;30;33;27 - 01;30;42;14 John Fife can create a space where people feel like they belong. We can create access and

01;30;42;17 - 01;30;53;15 Erin Croyle I love that because belonging is so much deeper than inclusion. Inclusion is just throwing someone in there and something I always stress,

01;30;53;19 - 01;30;55;29 Erin Croyle with my my son, my oldest,

01;30;55;29 - 01;31;11;07 Erin Croyle the many, many needs. And he has his expressive communication is is limited. But he's he understands. Is that connection right. Like connecting with someone even though they communicate differently.

01;31;11;09 - 01;31;17;27 Erin Croyle Genuine connection goes right hand in hand with belonging.

01;31;17;29 - 01;31;38;27 Erin Croyle Well, John, it was great connecting with you today. I am very excited for what's next in this series. And as I keep saying, anyone listening, you know, throw us our ideas because this is going to be going on and on for, I hope, a very long time and I could talk to you forever. So

01;31;39;00 - 01;31;39;15 John Fife Looking forward

01;31;39;18 - 01;31;46;15 Erin Croyle thank you.

01;31;46;17 - 01;31;48;20 Erin Croyle thank you, listeners for joining us

01;31;48;23 - 01;31;52;27 Erin Croyle for this brand new and ongoing Stem ability series.

01;31;53;00 - 01;31;58;09 Erin Croyle Please be sure to rate, review, subscribe, like, follow or whatever it is you need

01;31;58;12 - 01;32;02;25 Erin Croyle so you get a ping when the next episode drops.

01;32;02;28 - 01;32;07;23 Erin Croyle In that one, we'll be talking about best practices in supporting students with disabilities

01;32;07;23 - 01;32;11;17 Erin Croyle and what exactly vocational rehabilitation is.

01;32;11;20 - 01;32;14;03 Erin Croyle If there's a topic you want to know more about,

01;32;14;06 - 01;32;17;11 Erin Croyle just let me know.

01;32;17;14 - 01;32;20;14 Erin Croyle This is the odyssey of care.

01;32;20;17 - 01;32;21;27 Erin Croyle I'm Erin Croyle.

01;32;22;00 - 01;32;22;27 Erin Croyle We'll talk soon.