218: David Hornik - Why Givers Win

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Yeah, it sucks. It's stupid.
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And the opposite is also ridiculous, which is that there
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are some who feel like being a narcissistic asshole is
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somehow a good thing.
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You know, oh, well, wouldn't we all like to be
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more like Steve Jobs? And it's like, well, really?
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I don't know that that, you know, no, I don't
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think that that's right. I don't think that there is
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a natural correlation between being a tough, hard ass and
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being successful any more than there's a correlation between being
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a nice guy and being unsuccessful. And as Adam Grant
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pointed out in Give and Take, it turns out that
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the data suggests.
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Exactly the opposite.
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Thank you so much.
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I look forward to seeing all of your great responses
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on Twitter and Instagram at RyanHawk12, and thank you to
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my friends at Callaway Golf. Hey, and welcome to The
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Learning Leader Show. I am Ryan Hawk. Thank you so
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Go to learningleader.com. Enter your email address. Now, on to
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tonight's featured leader. Man, I love this one with David Walsh.
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He is a venture capitalist, was featured in an entire
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chapter to kick off Adam Grant's bestselling book titled Give
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and Take, primarily for the fact that David is known
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as a nice guy and a giver. Answers the question,
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can nice guys win? I love this talk. A few
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of the other topics we got into how David. differentiates
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himself from all of the other venture capitalists out there.
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Then the one thing that the greatest entrepreneurs have in common.
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David lists one specific trait and I was fascinated by it.
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And then how to handle failure.
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He tells an incredible story about the time they lost
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$ 35 million and how he reacted and learned from it.
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Ladies and gentlemen, this one is so good with David Hornick.
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All right, David, thank you so much for being here
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on The Learning Leader Show.
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Welcome. Thanks so much.
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So I first learned of you, and probably a lot
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of people, fans in my realm, I would say, we
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read this interesting story about you in Give and Take
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by Adam Grant.
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It basically leads the book.
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Off about your process for doing deals and really for
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just in general for how you are labeled as a giver.
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and so ever since then, it was about three years ago,
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I believe I read it, uh, three, maybe a little longer.
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And I was fascinated and wanted to actually get to
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know you at that point. Uh, what did your life
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change much after a give and take went on to
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become a bestselling book and, and, and Adam Grant went
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on to be, become pretty famous guy.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it did in some ways and it did,
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and it didn't in others. Uh, it was, it was
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a great thing. I think that first of all, Adam's
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an amazing guy and, And he really does walk the walk.
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He's a guy who, he talked about giving in a
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way that I think gave a lot of people permission
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to focus on how do I pay it forward? How
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do I work with other folks and be a little
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less selfish and a little more generous? And I think
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that's completely in keeping with who he is. And it
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was actually sort of a gift to be included in that.
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And so- So mostly.
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It's been amazing to have that out there in the
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world and have people sort of view me as a
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generous person by nature. But it does come with some
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interesting consequences as Adam himself has discovered, which is that
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you actually have lots of people who reach out to
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you by virtue of the book. And Adam surely gets
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more of these emails than I do. But I get
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plenty of emails and messages where you sort of say, hey, David,
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I read about you and give and take.
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And then they take on one of two forms.
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One is sort of the giver form, which is, hey,
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I really appreciated the story and I like the idea
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that one can live one's life in a generous way
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and still be successful. And that's and so I just
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want to thank you for that. That's that was amazing.
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That's one version. Interestingly, there's a taker version, which is,
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I read about you in Give and Take and it
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was so amazing to hear about all the good things
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you do. And so I'm wondering if you can do
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a particular thing for me. And you'd be surprised how
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many of those you get, even though it runs completely
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counter to the message of the book.
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I mean, the book sort of says, don't do that.
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And then the reaction is to say, hey. It's so
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great that you're a giver. Give me something.
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What are people asking you to give? Money? Is it
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in regards to investing or advice? What is it?
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I mean, investing is fine because really that's my job.
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I'm a venture capitalist. And so it makes perfect sense
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to reach out and say, I'd love to tell you
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about my business.
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That's fine.
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And that's not really what I'm thinking about. But it's
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often like, oh, I read about you. It's amazing what
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a giver you are. And I also noticed that you're
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friends with Selin. So I'm wondering if you can introduce
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me to her.
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Oh, man.
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It's like, no, no, actually, I can't. or, you know,
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things like that.
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So how do you, how do you balance it? Cause
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Adam told me, I had him on the show too.
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And he told me that he basically, uh, feels, uh,
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an urge or a need to respond to every email
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and he gets thousands of them probably every day. And, uh,
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And so when you're labeled the Robin Hood or a
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giver and being generous.
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Is it tough to live up to that?
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Because just from a general standpoint, you're a good giving guy.
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And it feels like, do I need to live up
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to something now?
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How do you balance that and still live a happy life,
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so to speak?
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Yeah, it's funny.
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I mean, Adam and I are exactly aligned on that.
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And so when we are emailing each other, it's one
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of those things, actually. The other thing I've noticed is that.
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It's hard for either of us to let the other
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person have the last word and not say, oh, yeah,
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thanks so much. Oh, thanks so much.
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And so it ends up a string that could be
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a couple of emails ends up being five, you know, hey,
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another thing. And I definitely am in the same camp
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where I think if you email me in the vast
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majority of.
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Instances, you deserve a response.
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You know, the exception is I get plenty of emails
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that are sort of form emails or sales emails.
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It is amazing to me.
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How many emails I get from this one private charter
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jet company that seems to think that every third day
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I need a jet somewhere. And no amount of me
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either telling them that I'm not interested or just deleting
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their emails will stop me from receiving the constant barrage
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of private jet emails.
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So I don't respond to those anymore.
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And I get form emails, dear sir, and I feel
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like that's not really deserving of a response. But if you,
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a person, write to me as a person, then I
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think it's appropriate to respond. Even if the response is just,
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this isn't a great fit for me, which is often
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the case, or unfortunately I don't have anything that could
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be helpful.
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But I think it's important to respond.
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But the byproduct is a whole lot of email and
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a whole lot of inbound email because I People like
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to get a response, and when they know you're responsive,
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they email you. So it is a real challenge, and
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I think of it as a very clear choice.
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I have made this choice. That's the person I want
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to be.
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That's how I want to engage in my business, but
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it comes at a cost, and that cost is that
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you better– get online and do some email from midnight
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to one in the morning or from 10 to 10
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to midnight, at least every other night, or you're going to,
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or you will fall behind. And you better hope as
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I do often that you, uh, they have a cross country, uh,
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flight because that's the best time of all to catch
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up on email.
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So you, you mentioned your venture capitalists and, uh, you're
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getting pitched all the time and you're looking at entrepreneurs
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and the good ones, they're actually the story in the
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book and I won't hit on it right now. We
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might get to it later, but the good ones have
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many people who want to invest. But I'm curious from
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your perspective, when you're getting pitched and you're thinking about
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investing and if you had to draw from your experience
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over the years to say, These are the few things,
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the few common themes or characteristics I've found in the
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best of the best when it comes to entrepreneurs, leaders,
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business owners, whatever you want to call them. Those types
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of people and those roles. What are the few common
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themes that they all seem to possess?
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They're good storytellers in the end. Ultimately, they're good salespeople
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and sales is about storytelling. And frankly, everything is about storytelling.
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I'm increasingly of the mind that every message, every parable,
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every thought is better delivered in some form of story
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and that ultimately those people who can do that well
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will be successful. And so entrepreneurs, that's 100% the case, right? Ultimately,
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to be a successful entrepreneur, you have to convince other
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people to join your company. Even though it's very risky,
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you have to convince people customers to buy the product,
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even though in the first instances, it's hard to convince
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them to do that. You need to raise capital, which
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is really about selling and telling a good story about
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what you're doing, etc. And so my experience is that
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the very best entrepreneurs are good at telling a story
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that explains why it is they're doing what they're doing
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and why there's a real opportunity and why they're the
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best suited to solve that problem and why if they do,
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they'll be disproportionately successful. And It turns out in the
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venture business, as with all entrepreneurship, they're almost assuredly wrong.
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They're almost assuredly wrong about whether they'll be successful or
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whether it is the right approach or whatever else. But
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even if they're wrong, they ultimately are more likely to
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be successful in the next thing that they try or
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the next approach or whatever if they're thoughtful about it.
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It's interesting.
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I just talked to Jason Calacanis, and he's an angel investor,
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which is different than a Series A investor like yourself.
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Do you know Jason by chance?
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I know Jason well.
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Okay. Are you guys friends?
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I'd say we're friends.
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Okay.
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Jason gives me crap a lot. Okay.
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It's interesting.
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I just talked to him because I feel like he
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was great on the show. He was very giving, and
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he was a fantastic guest. Although I don't think it
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would be surprising to hear that he said some things
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that surprised me about just about how great his life is.
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Would you get on a plane with a 25-year-old pilot
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if you had a life as good as mine? Things
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like that that I just laugh because I was surprised
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to hear him say, and he's really big into gambling
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and high-stakes poker.
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Very Jason. Yeah, yeah. Very Jason.
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Yeah.
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What he told me when I asked him when he
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invested in Uber early on, he said he invested in
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Travis Kalanick. He didn't invest in the product. He invested
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in people. And I'm curious to get your take when
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it comes to making decisions.
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And obviously you.
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Do want to take a look at the product and
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understand it, but he basically cut checks to Elon Musk
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or cut checks to Travis without fully vetting even the
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product market fit or any of that. It was mainly
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based on the people involved. Talk to me about your
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thought process on investing in people versus their actual product
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or service.
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Well, I think in general, that's right. You know, you back, um,
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in the end, people are the folks. It's the people
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who are going to make something successful. There are some rare,
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amazing ideas that will be successful independent of the people
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building it, but they're pretty rare. Whereas there's some amazing
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people who will come up with an idea and make
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it work, even if it may not start out as
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the greatest idea or if their first idea failed.
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I have a.
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Company called Top Hatter, and the founder's original product was
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an amazing thing called Blippi that I loved that was
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basically Twitter for your credit card. It turned out there
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just wasn't enough demand for it, but the team was
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an incredible team. They thought about what assets they had
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and what business they could build. They shifted and rethought
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and became this company, Top Hatter. Top Hatter is a
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It's an app that allows you to do real-time bidding
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and sort of a real-time auction for goods on your phone.
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And so it's like costume jewelry and makeup and tablets
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and et cetera. And so people, it's sort of like
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a game-like experience where you go on and you're like, oh,
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I wouldn't mind buying that game device.
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And it's a 30-second auction. Someone wins it. It gets sold.
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And then you move on to the next one.
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And because they were so talented, the business is a
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many hundred million dollar business now, even though they started
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out doing something completely different.
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Right.
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So those sorts of folks are are the kinds of
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people you want to back. Now, I'm a kind of
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later stage investor than than Jason is. And so there
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will be some indicators by the time I invest as
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to whether the thing they're doing is going to work,
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has what we call product market fit, etc., And so
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I'm likely to spend more time thinking about how big
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is the idea, how big is the market, et cetera.
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But like Jason, absolutely the people are the first and
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foremost criteria when I'm deciding.
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And one of those people.
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That I initially learned of you about, which a lot
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of people who became fans of Adam Grant was– is
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00:15:58.029 --> 00:15:58.950
it Danny Shader?
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Is that how you pronounce his name? Yeah. Yeah, that's right.
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00:16:01.549 --> 00:16:05.419
So the story, I mean, it's obviously beautifully written and
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00:16:06.179 --> 00:16:09.740
a great story. But basically, you and Danny happened to
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meet at your daughter's soccer game.
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Is that true?
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00:16:12.759 --> 00:16:13.730
Yep, it is 100% true.
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A little cliche, but it is true that in Silicon Valley,
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00:16:18.309 --> 00:16:21.549
you just never know whose kid is on your soccer team.
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And in this instance, I got to chatting.
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With one of the dad's While one of the girls
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on the team was having a birthday, and so all
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the girls were having cupcakes, and the parents.
320
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Were sitting around waiting for them to finish up.
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And I started chatting with this gentleman, and at some
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point he said, well, what are you doing? I said,
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I'm a venture capitalist. And he said, really? What's your firm?
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And I said, August Capital. He said, August Capital?
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Who are you? I said, oh, I'm David Hornick. And
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he said, you're David Hornick. I said, well, who are you?
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And he said, I'm Danny Shader. And Danny and I
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both knew of each other, but obviously had never met
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each other. And so once we made that connection, like, oh,
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00:17:00.769 --> 00:17:04.529
you're Danny Shader. Oh, you're David Hornick. Then soccer games changed, right?
331
00:17:04.569 --> 00:17:07.299
Instead of A lot of sitting around on my phone
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00:17:07.319 --> 00:17:09.369
or whatever. I spent a lot of time chatting with Danny.
333
00:17:09.769 --> 00:17:11.690
And when we went to tournaments, he and I would
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drive together to the tournaments. Our poor daughter is sitting
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00:17:14.170 --> 00:17:16.049
in the back going, oh, my God, do we have
336
00:17:16.089 --> 00:17:18.670
to hear more about business? You know, we're in headphones
337
00:17:18.710 --> 00:17:21.049
because the two of you are going to chat the
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whole way to Sacramento and back, which is true.
339
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We didn't.
340
00:17:23.609 --> 00:17:27.609
It made it really fun and ultimately resulted in me
341
00:17:27.650 --> 00:17:29.390
learning about Danny's business.
342
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And funding it.
343
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And initially, though, he didn't choose you.
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00:17:32.799 --> 00:17:35.180
And one of the reasons he said is because he
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00:17:35.220 --> 00:17:39.400
thought you may be too nice and wouldn't push him enough.
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And he felt like he wanted somebody who would push him,
347
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which blew me away. But how was that able.
348
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To then eventually change?
349
00:17:50.309 --> 00:17:55.329
Well, first of all, he's a punk. Well, basically, I
350
00:17:55.369 --> 00:17:58.410
pushed him. No, it's funny, actually.
351
00:17:58.450 --> 00:18:01.059
If you talk to Danny now... Danny kind of laughs
352
00:18:01.119 --> 00:18:03.160
about that. He's worked with me for a bunch of
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years and has had the experience of me sitting on
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his board and working with him. And he now knows
355
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that that's a little bit of a caricature of who
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00:18:14.119 --> 00:18:17.829
I am. And I remember talking with one of the
357
00:18:17.890 --> 00:18:20.170
CEOs I'd backed and I made some comment. You know,
358
00:18:20.190 --> 00:18:22.150
it was sort of like the nice guy. Someone had
359
00:18:22.250 --> 00:18:25.500
commented about me being a nice guy, etc., And the
360
00:18:25.539 --> 00:18:27.519
CEO said to me, yeah, you're not as nice as
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00:18:27.539 --> 00:18:28.460
you pretend to be.
362
00:18:28.480 --> 00:18:30.339
And I was like, what do you mean by that?
363
00:18:31.140 --> 00:18:35.700
And he's, you know, he basically, and he wasn't saying
364
00:18:35.740 --> 00:18:37.480
I wasn't a nice person or whatever. He was just
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00:18:37.500 --> 00:18:40.200
saying like, look, you're not a pushover. It's not like
366
00:18:40.619 --> 00:18:42.829
you sit there and are just yesing us to death.
367
00:18:42.890 --> 00:18:43.809
And that's the reality.
368
00:18:43.829 --> 00:18:47.539
The reality is that I think there are good ways
369
00:18:47.619 --> 00:18:51.400
and bad ways of doing business and delivering feedback and
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00:18:51.420 --> 00:18:53.779
whatever else. And my view is that I'd much rather
371
00:18:53.839 --> 00:18:56.420
do it with a smile and try and be helpful
372
00:18:56.460 --> 00:18:58.650
to you. But I'm not a yes man by any
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00:18:58.690 --> 00:19:01.450
stretch of the imagination. I just think that you might
374
00:19:01.490 --> 00:19:03.769
as well be respectful and thoughtful in the process of
375
00:19:03.809 --> 00:19:06.890
trying to get to the same outcome. And so Danny,
376
00:19:06.910 --> 00:19:10.630
over time, not only came to realize that that was
377
00:19:10.670 --> 00:19:13.380
the case and that I was able to be be
378
00:19:13.519 --> 00:19:17.279
a valuable business partner, not just someone who would, uh,
379
00:19:17.359 --> 00:19:19.259
you know, who'd be pleasant to be around.
380
00:19:19.680 --> 00:19:22.779
And so in fact, he, he often ends up doing reference.
381
00:19:22.519 --> 00:19:24.099
Calls for me because he said, you know, one of
382
00:19:24.119 --> 00:19:26.359
the problems he had with the reference calls he got
383
00:19:26.799 --> 00:19:29.140
was that they didn't emphasize the fact that I would
384
00:19:29.200 --> 00:19:31.509
do that. I did all those things as well. And
385
00:19:31.569 --> 00:19:34.029
so he's like, yeah, forget about whether or not David's
386
00:19:34.069 --> 00:19:34.569
a nice guy.
387
00:19:34.589 --> 00:19:37.529
That's irrelevant. Here's, here's what it's like to work with him,
388
00:19:37.569 --> 00:19:38.990
which I, which I appreciate.
389
00:19:39.660 --> 00:19:43.019
Isn't that kind of a shame that being a nice guy,
390
00:19:43.039 --> 00:19:45.509
a person you want to hang out with and be around,
391
00:19:45.970 --> 00:19:47.369
could be viewed as a negative?
392
00:19:48.569 --> 00:19:49.869
Yeah, it sucks. It's stupid.
393
00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:55.660
And the opposite is also ridiculous, which is that there
394
00:19:55.740 --> 00:20:00.400
are some who feel like being a narcissistic asshole is
395
00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:01.859
somehow a good thing.
396
00:20:02.019 --> 00:20:04.089
You know, oh, well, wouldn't we all like to be
397
00:20:04.109 --> 00:20:06.549
more like Steve Jobs? And it's like, well, really?
398
00:20:06.589 --> 00:20:09.279
I don't know that that, you know, No, I don't
399
00:20:09.319 --> 00:20:12.059
think that that's right. I don't think that there is
400
00:20:12.099 --> 00:20:17.559
a natural correlation between being tough, hard-ass, and being successful
401
00:20:17.619 --> 00:20:20.000
any more than there's a correlation between being a nice
402
00:20:20.039 --> 00:20:23.009
guy and being unsuccessful. And as Adam Grant pointed out
403
00:20:23.029 --> 00:20:24.809
in Give and Take, it turns out that the data
404
00:20:24.849 --> 00:20:27.150
suggests exactly the opposite.
405
00:20:28.630 --> 00:20:32.769
Yeah, I loved– that's why that book was life-changing for me.
406
00:20:32.809 --> 00:20:35.819
I think before I read it, I thought– more of
407
00:20:35.880 --> 00:20:39.299
a zero-sum game. I worked in the profession of selling
408
00:20:39.480 --> 00:20:42.519
and thought the only way for me to win or
409
00:20:42.559 --> 00:20:44.619
to win the awards or to be number one was
410
00:20:44.700 --> 00:20:47.400
just to push everyone else down and to try to win.
411
00:20:47.420 --> 00:20:49.900
And I learned not only from that, but then from
412
00:20:49.940 --> 00:20:51.920
my own experiences following.
413
00:20:51.640 --> 00:20:54.200
That book, that it didn't need to be that way.
414
00:20:54.279 --> 00:20:58.039
It absolutely was not and is not a zero-sum game.
415
00:20:58.079 --> 00:21:00.519
That in fact, it would be much more productive and
416
00:21:00.579 --> 00:21:03.029
better and we'd all be happier and if we all
417
00:21:03.089 --> 00:21:05.549
tried to help one another as opposed to just trying
418
00:21:05.589 --> 00:21:08.910
to beat each other up. Yeah. Was there a moment
419
00:21:08.970 --> 00:21:12.970
or an inflection point in your life that that changed
420
00:21:13.069 --> 00:21:15.630
or have you always felt this way?
421
00:21:16.829 --> 00:21:18.809
No, I think I've always kind of taken this view.
422
00:21:18.849 --> 00:21:23.200
My, uh, I'm definitely not a zero sum kind of
423
00:21:23.279 --> 00:21:25.480
person and I'm not the kind of person who thinks
424
00:21:25.559 --> 00:21:29.279
that I don't believe that life is better lived at
425
00:21:29.500 --> 00:21:32.730
someone else's expense. So I would, You know, I was
426
00:21:32.789 --> 00:21:38.029
in law school in a really cutthroat environment. And my
427
00:21:38.089 --> 00:21:41.710
view was, look, this is not about me winning and
428
00:21:41.750 --> 00:21:44.630
you losing. It's about us trying to survive this. So
429
00:21:44.670 --> 00:21:45.450
how can I help you?
430
00:21:45.789 --> 00:21:46.089
Right.
431
00:21:46.410 --> 00:21:50.670
And that was a rather unusual point of view. And ultimately,
432
00:21:50.690 --> 00:21:52.410
it led to me making a set of choices in
433
00:21:52.450 --> 00:21:56.509
law school that I think served me well. But others
434
00:21:56.809 --> 00:22:01.059
might have thought were strange choices. I ultimately chose, rather
435
00:22:01.099 --> 00:22:03.460
than to join the law review, which was sort of
436
00:22:03.500 --> 00:22:07.339
the path to becoming, to clerking on the Supreme Court
437
00:22:07.380 --> 00:22:09.619
and blah, blah, blah, I chose to work in this
438
00:22:09.680 --> 00:22:12.359
organization called the Board of Student Advisors because it was
439
00:22:12.420 --> 00:22:17.450
the group that taught legal writing for incoming students and
440
00:22:17.789 --> 00:22:21.849
ran moot court and orientation and seemed like a, It
441
00:22:21.890 --> 00:22:27.259
was just a more collaborative, positive kind of experience as
442
00:22:27.279 --> 00:22:30.019
far as I was concerned. And so I did that
443
00:22:30.119 --> 00:22:31.640
because I felt like it was the better use of
444
00:22:31.680 --> 00:22:36.099
my time. And others said, well, that's a crazy choice
445
00:22:36.180 --> 00:22:40.000
because these other things move you forward more.
446
00:22:40.819 --> 00:22:42.400
And I've had plenty of instances like that.
447
00:22:42.420 --> 00:22:44.920
And I think in the long run, ultimately doing the
448
00:22:44.980 --> 00:22:49.119
things you like with the people you like, will be
449
00:22:49.180 --> 00:22:53.250
more satisfying, and you will ultimately be more successful than
450
00:22:53.309 --> 00:22:55.190
if you make a set of choices that you think
451
00:22:55.230 --> 00:22:58.970
are optimizing for some outcome, when the vast majority of
452
00:22:58.990 --> 00:23:01.170
the time, those outcomes you think you're going to get
453
00:23:01.279 --> 00:23:03.740
to don't happen anyway. And then you've had a pretty
454
00:23:03.880 --> 00:23:07.259
unpleasant experience along the way. So that's kind of a lose-lose, right?
455
00:23:08.460 --> 00:23:10.740
Yeah, a question I've been asking of mentors of mine
456
00:23:10.799 --> 00:23:17.200
recently is, sometimes it's peculiar, I guess, but I like
457
00:23:17.220 --> 00:23:22.119
to understand the percentage of their job that they really love,
458
00:23:22.240 --> 00:23:26.619
that they enjoy doing, and the percent that they dislike strongly.
459
00:23:26.660 --> 00:23:29.049
I don't like to use the word hate, but what percent?
460
00:23:29.089 --> 00:23:30.230
So if you had to break it down on a
461
00:23:30.230 --> 00:23:33.259
100% scale, for you, David, now that you're into it,
462
00:23:33.730 --> 00:23:36.450
what percent of your job do you love?
463
00:23:39.289 --> 00:23:43.819
Oh, I think it's probably north of 80%. This is
464
00:23:43.859 --> 00:23:44.920
a really good job.
465
00:23:45.240 --> 00:23:45.420
Yeah.
466
00:23:45.930 --> 00:23:46.470
It's very hard.
467
00:23:46.839 --> 00:23:48.920
You know, the bad stuff about this job actually aren't
468
00:23:48.960 --> 00:23:51.660
really bad things about the job. They're just that sometimes
469
00:23:52.200 --> 00:23:55.359
the things that you do don't work, you know, they
470
00:23:55.380 --> 00:23:57.880
don't work out, right? You make choices and then things
471
00:23:58.000 --> 00:23:59.940
don't end up working out for some reason or other,
472
00:24:00.420 --> 00:24:04.210
as opposed to, you know, man, that's a bad, that
473
00:24:04.269 --> 00:24:06.390
piece of this job is really unpleasant.
474
00:24:06.930 --> 00:24:09.750
You know, I think that, uh, what's unpleasant, like what's
475
00:24:09.849 --> 00:24:10.890
part of that, what's part of that 20%.
476
00:24:10.890 --> 00:24:17.750
You know, I, there are, there's no ability to perfectly
477
00:24:17.809 --> 00:24:23.650
predict how interesting an opportunity is or on rare occasion
478
00:24:23.670 --> 00:24:27.230
the sorts of people with whom.
479
00:24:27.130 --> 00:24:28.490
You'd like to engage.
480
00:24:28.910 --> 00:24:32.849
And so you do inevitably end up spending time with
481
00:24:32.970 --> 00:24:36.809
people who are either the sorts of people that you
482
00:24:36.829 --> 00:24:40.269
would rather not back or you would rather not engage with.
483
00:24:40.910 --> 00:24:44.289
And you do on occasion end up spending a lot
484
00:24:44.329 --> 00:24:48.180
of time listening to uh ideas that are just not
485
00:24:48.200 --> 00:24:50.200
a good fit for you and therefore not a great
486
00:24:50.299 --> 00:24:52.599
use of your time and so those things can in
487
00:24:53.140 --> 00:24:56.000
years one through ten that's not those are not the
488
00:24:56.039 --> 00:24:58.579
end of the world in years i'm 17 years into
489
00:24:58.619 --> 00:25:00.579
it and so in year 17 you're sort of like
490
00:25:00.680 --> 00:25:05.039
oh man i mean with the people who are not
491
00:25:05.079 --> 00:25:06.759
the sort of people you'd want to spend time that
492
00:25:06.839 --> 00:25:10.119
one's that one is that one is terrible where you're
493
00:25:10.140 --> 00:25:12.619
just like look you know you're i'm just not going
494
00:25:12.660 --> 00:25:15.660
to I'm not going to work with someone who thinks
495
00:25:15.700 --> 00:25:17.019
about the world this way.
496
00:25:17.279 --> 00:25:19.559
With the pitches that don't work out. It's just part
497
00:25:19.579 --> 00:25:20.329
of the deal, right?
498
00:25:20.349 --> 00:25:22.309
Which is you're going to be pitched by a lot
499
00:25:22.349 --> 00:25:24.380
of businesses and you're going to, and you're going to,
500
00:25:24.390 --> 00:25:27.049
the pitch is going to last an hour and in
501
00:25:27.049 --> 00:25:29.410
15 minutes in, you're going to often know that it's
502
00:25:29.470 --> 00:25:31.170
not the right deal for you.
503
00:25:31.579 --> 00:25:33.960
That's just how it goes. Although that can, that can
504
00:25:34.000 --> 00:25:35.680
be frustrating at times.
505
00:25:35.700 --> 00:25:36.460
Do you have a boss?
506
00:25:38.460 --> 00:25:39.059
Not really.
507
00:25:39.079 --> 00:25:45.710
I mean, no, I was like, So from an accountability perspective,
508
00:25:46.250 --> 00:25:51.089
it's just on you to hold yourself and your team accountable, correct?
509
00:25:51.789 --> 00:25:51.869
Yeah.
510
00:25:51.890 --> 00:25:55.880
I mean, at the end of the day, venture capitalists
511
00:25:56.299 --> 00:25:58.460
raise money from what.
512
00:25:58.380 --> 00:26:02.200
Are called limited partners. There are investors and they put
513
00:26:02.240 --> 00:26:02.529
money in.
514
00:26:02.539 --> 00:26:04.420
So when you go out to raise a fund, you say, hey,
515
00:26:04.460 --> 00:26:07.630
I'm going to do this set of things and I'd
516
00:26:07.650 --> 00:26:10.150
love for you to give me $ 500 million, whatever the
517
00:26:10.190 --> 00:26:13.650
answer is, something crazy. And so hopefully you convince them
518
00:26:13.690 --> 00:26:15.730
and you got a group of people say, fine, here
519
00:26:15.829 --> 00:26:17.009
we will agree to do this.
520
00:26:17.089 --> 00:26:18.950
And there are a set of rules. It's just a contract.
521
00:26:18.970 --> 00:26:20.789
And it says, if you do these sets of things,
522
00:26:20.829 --> 00:26:24.210
we'll give you $ 500 million. And that will go, that
523
00:26:24.230 --> 00:26:26.079
will last for 10 years and you'll do a set
524
00:26:26.119 --> 00:26:28.960
of things, right? So once you've raised that money, then
525
00:26:29.680 --> 00:26:31.599
you really don't have a boss. You're kind of on
526
00:26:31.619 --> 00:26:33.980
your own making a set of choices, trying to be good.
527
00:26:33.920 --> 00:26:38.289
Stewards of the money that they have handed you, and
528
00:26:38.309 --> 00:26:40.670
trying to turn it into more money to give back
529
00:26:40.710 --> 00:26:45.480
to them, which is the job. About three years after
530
00:26:45.500 --> 00:26:47.940
you raise that last fund, three or four or whatever,
531
00:26:48.000 --> 00:26:50.220
you then go and say, hey, I'd like to raise
532
00:26:50.279 --> 00:26:53.039
another fund. And you have to go back to basically
533
00:26:53.079 --> 00:26:55.019
the same set of people and say, here are all
534
00:26:55.039 --> 00:26:57.140
the things I did, and here are the things I'm
535
00:26:57.220 --> 00:26:59.579
going to do, and will you give me another $ 500 million?
536
00:27:02.109 --> 00:27:04.650
That's as close as we come to having a boss
537
00:27:04.730 --> 00:27:06.829
where they then get to say like, why did you
538
00:27:06.869 --> 00:27:07.309
do this?
539
00:27:07.450 --> 00:27:09.430
Or why didn't you do this? Or why aren't you
540
00:27:09.450 --> 00:27:10.759
thinking about this thing, et cetera?
541
00:27:11.339 --> 00:27:14.420
That's not really the same as having a day-to-day boss
542
00:27:14.720 --> 00:27:18.059
where you're engaged in a set of tasks and answering
543
00:27:18.079 --> 00:27:18.900
to a person or whatever.
544
00:27:19.420 --> 00:27:20.480
I don't have any of that.
545
00:27:20.619 --> 00:27:21.940
Do you have to report out there?
546
00:27:21.980 --> 00:27:24.579
If someone gives you $ 500 million, I would think they
547
00:27:24.619 --> 00:27:27.460
would want updates on a regular basis where you're up
548
00:27:27.500 --> 00:27:29.460
there presenting, saying this is what we're doing. This is
549
00:27:29.660 --> 00:27:31.089
the way we think. This is what we've done. This
550
00:27:31.119 --> 00:27:33.099
is how it's performing. Do you do that on a
551
00:27:33.099 --> 00:27:33.720
regular basis?
552
00:27:34.940 --> 00:27:35.519
Yeah, sort of.
553
00:27:36.119 --> 00:27:41.799
I mean, we meet with our limited partners whenever they're interested.
554
00:27:41.839 --> 00:27:43.480
So if they're in town and they want to sit
555
00:27:43.500 --> 00:27:45.920
down and talk with us about how things are going
556
00:27:45.960 --> 00:27:48.039
in the industry and all that, then great, happy to
557
00:27:48.079 --> 00:27:51.740
do it. It's more of a conversation than sort of
558
00:27:51.859 --> 00:27:55.099
an accounting. And I guess it's a little bit about
559
00:27:55.119 --> 00:27:57.759
how are you doing and how well you're doing, those
560
00:27:57.799 --> 00:27:58.339
sorts of things.
561
00:27:58.359 --> 00:27:59.740
What if it's going bad?
562
00:28:01.349 --> 00:28:03.789
Yeah, I mean, you got to admit it.
563
00:28:03.809 --> 00:28:05.349
So can you think of a time when it's gone
564
00:28:05.430 --> 00:28:08.490
really bad and you're like, oh my God, what am
565
00:28:08.509 --> 00:28:10.009
I going to say when they come into town?
566
00:28:10.150 --> 00:28:12.470
How's it going to go? Or maybe that hasn't happened.
567
00:28:12.490 --> 00:28:14.059
I don't know. I'm just curious, I guess.
568
00:28:14.339 --> 00:28:17.740
Thinking about the average person listening who, you know, everybody
569
00:28:17.980 --> 00:28:20.140
who's listening probably has some sort of a job where
570
00:28:20.240 --> 00:28:22.380
it hasn't gone well and they have to answer to
571
00:28:22.420 --> 00:28:24.309
it and they might have to stand up and do it.
572
00:28:24.309 --> 00:28:25.809
And it's hard and it's not fun.
573
00:28:25.849 --> 00:28:29.450
And they, they maybe could, could learn from, from people
574
00:28:29.509 --> 00:28:31.630
here who have on the show who have gone through
575
00:28:31.670 --> 00:28:32.349
moments like that.
576
00:28:33.089 --> 00:28:33.309
Yeah.
577
00:28:33.450 --> 00:28:36.970
Well, look, for sure, companies fail all the time. I mean,
578
00:28:36.990 --> 00:28:41.400
in my instance, my biggest loss from any given company,
579
00:28:41.480 --> 00:28:44.680
I think I lost $ 35 million on a single company.
580
00:28:45.099 --> 00:28:48.329
So obviously that's a, that is an not a fun
581
00:28:48.390 --> 00:28:50.809
conversation with your investors to say, oh, you remember that
582
00:28:50.869 --> 00:28:53.730
company that I thought was exciting and I put $ 35
583
00:28:53.130 --> 00:28:55.710
million into it. Turns out it went out of business
584
00:28:55.769 --> 00:29:00.329
and we lost all $ 35 million. That's not a pleasant conversation.
585
00:29:00.390 --> 00:29:04.519
And the first time that happened while I was in
586
00:29:04.559 --> 00:29:08.900
this business, it was becoming clear it was going to happen,
587
00:29:08.940 --> 00:29:11.880
that we were at the end of the at the
588
00:29:12.200 --> 00:29:13.960
end of the rope and we were not going to
589
00:29:13.980 --> 00:29:16.140
raise more money and the company was going to fail
590
00:29:16.220 --> 00:29:18.990
and I had a lot of sleepless nights of sort
591
00:29:19.029 --> 00:29:22.529
of rocking around going, man, what can I do here?
592
00:29:23.450 --> 00:29:26.150
And ultimately the company failed and we lost the money
593
00:29:26.849 --> 00:29:29.470
and I did have to say, I had to talk
594
00:29:29.509 --> 00:29:32.109
to my investors and say, here's what happened. And what
595
00:29:32.150 --> 00:29:35.670
I realized when I did that was this business is
596
00:29:35.710 --> 00:29:38.630
not about always succeeding. This business is about making reasonable
597
00:29:38.690 --> 00:29:44.299
choices and succeeding more often than you fail. And so
598
00:29:44.319 --> 00:29:46.809
that conversation actually turned out to be a good conversation
599
00:29:46.829 --> 00:29:49.269
where what they wanted to know was why did it
600
00:29:49.309 --> 00:29:54.000
go wrong and could we have predicted it earlier. And,
601
00:29:54.420 --> 00:29:56.990
and if not, you know, what lessons we've learned and
602
00:29:57.049 --> 00:29:59.910
all of that was super valuable. And so, so yeah,
603
00:29:59.950 --> 00:30:02.029
to a certain degree, it's unpleasant to have to go
604
00:30:02.069 --> 00:30:03.349
in and say, Hey, I got it wrong.
605
00:30:03.390 --> 00:30:05.369
And this thing didn't work. And we lost many millions
606
00:30:05.410 --> 00:30:05.890
of dollars.
607
00:30:06.299 --> 00:30:10.440
On the other hand, because in, I think in general,
608
00:30:10.480 --> 00:30:13.940
the investors in my fund and in me, uh, respect
609
00:30:14.000 --> 00:30:16.900
the choices that we make and understand that it doesn't
610
00:30:16.940 --> 00:30:20.670
always work. And because I've seen it on both sides,
611
00:30:20.730 --> 00:30:24.859
both not working, but also working spectacularly well, that conversation
612
00:30:24.950 --> 00:30:27.720
isn't nearly as bad as one would think, right? And
613
00:30:27.740 --> 00:30:31.740
the same thing is ultimately true. Look, in any job,
614
00:30:31.779 --> 00:30:35.900
you may do things that don't work out. The question is,
615
00:30:36.519 --> 00:30:39.400
did you make a set of choices that caused it
616
00:30:39.420 --> 00:30:40.279
to not work out?
617
00:30:41.019 --> 00:30:43.299
And to what degree you could have anticipated that?
618
00:30:43.359 --> 00:30:46.509
And to the extent that you figure out, hey, look
619
00:30:46.549 --> 00:30:50.410
at wasn't really about me not anticipating this thing or
620
00:30:50.450 --> 00:30:53.049
was really about a set of circumstances that were out
621
00:30:53.069 --> 00:30:56.970
of my control, et cetera, then that conversation, while you
622
00:30:57.029 --> 00:31:01.049
should always say, gosh, I'm extraordinarily sorry that it has
623
00:31:01.109 --> 00:31:03.930
gone this way, you should also be honest about what
624
00:31:03.970 --> 00:31:06.769
are the things that were your responsibility, what are the
625
00:31:06.809 --> 00:31:09.130
things that were outside of your control, and what are
626
00:31:09.170 --> 00:31:11.160
you going to do to optimize for the things you
627
00:31:11.180 --> 00:31:14.359
control and to minimize the impact of the things you don't.
628
00:31:16.299 --> 00:31:18.900
One of the interesting things I picked out as a
629
00:31:18.920 --> 00:31:21.700
guy who's worked in sales for basically my entire career
630
00:31:22.220 --> 00:31:26.490
and led sales teams is when you were giving the
631
00:31:26.529 --> 00:31:31.089
offer sheet to Danny, you did not put a hard
632
00:31:31.269 --> 00:31:34.569
end date on him or basically you did not try
633
00:31:34.690 --> 00:31:39.970
to stop him from pitching others. And people said, that's crazy.
634
00:31:40.009 --> 00:31:41.509
You have to do that. So you could try to
635
00:31:41.529 --> 00:31:43.509
put pressure on him to say yes, or it's off
636
00:31:43.549 --> 00:31:45.690
the table. And you just said, no, go ahead, check
637
00:31:45.730 --> 00:31:47.609
it out. Let me know what you think. You left
638
00:31:47.670 --> 00:31:50.930
it really open-ended. And most salespeople would say, David.
639
00:31:50.950 --> 00:31:52.210
What are you doing? That's crazy, man.
640
00:31:52.230 --> 00:31:55.859
You got to create some sort of urgency to get
641
00:31:55.900 --> 00:31:59.980
the deal done. And that's not your style. At least
642
00:32:00.000 --> 00:32:03.299
it wasn't for this story. Can you talk about that
643
00:32:03.539 --> 00:32:07.240
aspect of your approach? Because I know you also have
644
00:32:07.269 --> 00:32:10.789
a very high percentage rate when it comes to people
645
00:32:10.829 --> 00:32:14.609
you make offers to and the percentage of them that
646
00:32:14.670 --> 00:32:17.589
say yes. So I'd love to learn about your thought
647
00:32:17.630 --> 00:32:18.539
process around that.
648
00:32:19.630 --> 00:32:24.099
Yeah, well, that's still my approach. In fact, I just
649
00:32:24.140 --> 00:32:27.609
gave a guy a term sheet. uh, this past, I'm
650
00:32:27.630 --> 00:32:29.549
trying to think when I, when he got up this
651
00:32:29.589 --> 00:32:31.869
past Monday, I guess I had a call with him
652
00:32:32.769 --> 00:32:35.190
and we talked about it. And then he said, so,
653
00:32:35.809 --> 00:32:38.869
you know, there's no time, there's no timeframe on this
654
00:32:38.890 --> 00:32:40.829
term sheet. How are you thinking about it? And I said,
655
00:32:40.849 --> 00:32:43.029
look at, in the end, you have to decide you
656
00:32:43.069 --> 00:32:45.910
want to work with me, not this isn't about, and
657
00:32:45.930 --> 00:32:49.220
by the way, investing is about working with people for
658
00:32:49.220 --> 00:32:52.180
10 years, 15 years. I've been on the Splunk board
659
00:32:52.400 --> 00:32:54.970
for 14 years. I've been on the NOMAS board, for
660
00:32:54.970 --> 00:32:57.190
11 years. I was on the Ebates board for 14 years.
661
00:32:57.490 --> 00:33:00.049
This isn't something like little decision you make. This is
662
00:33:00.109 --> 00:33:01.670
about a big.
663
00:33:01.470 --> 00:33:03.220
Chunk of time in your future.
664
00:33:03.680 --> 00:33:08.200
And so my view is if you ultimately decide for
665
00:33:08.880 --> 00:33:10.859
whatever reasons that you're not going to take my money,
666
00:33:10.880 --> 00:33:13.670
it won't be because I put a gun to your
667
00:33:13.690 --> 00:33:16.690
head or whatever. It's going to be because you went
668
00:33:16.710 --> 00:33:19.650
through a process, right? And I want you to want
669
00:33:19.690 --> 00:33:21.230
to work with me. I think that's the thing that's
670
00:33:21.269 --> 00:33:23.190
going to make it most successful. And more importantly, I
671
00:33:23.230 --> 00:33:25.809
think when you understand that my goal is to do
672
00:33:25.869 --> 00:33:27.750
the thing that will make you most successful, that you're
673
00:33:27.789 --> 00:33:30.049
more likely to work with me in any event. So
674
00:33:30.089 --> 00:33:32.170
this gentleman, when he said, gee, I'd love, you know,
675
00:33:32.190 --> 00:33:36.000
how are you thinking about it? My answer was, you
676
00:33:36.039 --> 00:33:37.460
need to do the work you need to do to
677
00:33:37.500 --> 00:33:39.019
figure out if this is the right thing for you.
678
00:33:40.000 --> 00:33:42.740
I am happy to give you the time you need.
679
00:33:44.140 --> 00:33:45.799
If we could get to some answer by the 4th
680
00:33:45.839 --> 00:33:49.269
of July, that seems like it'd be great. And his
681
00:33:49.309 --> 00:33:52.089
answer was, yeah, that seems like a very reasonable– that
682
00:33:52.109 --> 00:33:56.710
seems like a reasonable timeline and I appreciate it.
683
00:33:57.069 --> 00:33:58.250
And so if.
684
00:33:58.259 --> 00:34:00.319
You're someone else and you come back and you give
685
00:34:00.339 --> 00:34:02.740
them a term sheet that has a– what we call
686
00:34:02.759 --> 00:34:04.740
an exploding term sheet that has a timeline on it
687
00:34:04.779 --> 00:34:07.119
or whatever– He's going to go into it thinking, you
688
00:34:07.160 --> 00:34:09.090
know what, David was a good guy and was worried
689
00:34:09.119 --> 00:34:11.269
about the big picture. And this person is someone who's
690
00:34:11.289 --> 00:34:13.650
trying to, you know, trying to put a gun to
691
00:34:13.690 --> 00:34:13.989
my head.
692
00:34:14.949 --> 00:34:15.949
Who do I want to work with?
693
00:34:16.050 --> 00:34:19.110
Right. Which person would I rather work with? So I
694
00:34:19.250 --> 00:34:22.610
that I just think that you're better off taking the
695
00:34:22.650 --> 00:34:24.150
long view than the short view.
696
00:34:24.190 --> 00:34:25.829
And that's why I think about it that way.
697
00:34:26.329 --> 00:34:30.889
Do now other peers or other people in your industry,
698
00:34:30.969 --> 00:34:33.929
have they adopted your methods or do they still use
699
00:34:33.989 --> 00:34:35.010
exploding term sheets?
700
00:34:35.920 --> 00:34:37.820
Oh, I think it's always been divided, right? I mean,
701
00:34:37.840 --> 00:34:42.679
my firm and my partners have always agreed that this
702
00:34:42.760 --> 00:34:46.170
is a fair and reasonable approach. There are others who
703
00:34:46.230 --> 00:34:50.230
have always put a time frame on their term sheets. And,
704
00:34:51.030 --> 00:34:52.769
you know, I'm not trying to change their behavior.
705
00:34:52.809 --> 00:34:55.309
In fact, I think when they do it, it actually
706
00:34:55.349 --> 00:34:58.570
creates an advantage for me. So if you want to
707
00:34:58.590 --> 00:35:01.739
put an exploding term sheet in the face of one
708
00:35:01.760 --> 00:35:05.110
of my term sheets, which is saying, hey, I'm here
709
00:35:05.150 --> 00:35:06.590
to help you figure out what's the best thing for
710
00:35:06.610 --> 00:35:10.050
your company. I think that creates an instant contrast in
711
00:35:10.110 --> 00:35:13.059
terms of how I think about your business and someone
712
00:35:13.079 --> 00:35:13.440
else does.
713
00:35:13.920 --> 00:35:17.199
So that's definitely one way to differentiate yourself in this business.
714
00:35:17.239 --> 00:35:20.639
Are there other ways that you actively seek to be
715
00:35:20.760 --> 00:35:23.510
different from others who are offering term sheets?
716
00:35:25.989 --> 00:35:30.510
Well, you know, look, what I am ultimately selling as
717
00:35:30.570 --> 00:35:35.750
a venture capitalist is is money, right? I have money
718
00:35:35.809 --> 00:35:37.809
and you need money and you want to run your business, whatever.
719
00:35:37.829 --> 00:35:41.150
And money is the ultimate and fungible things. You know,
720
00:35:41.230 --> 00:35:44.050
it's like my money and everybody else's money is exactly
721
00:35:44.070 --> 00:35:45.949
the same. If you give me a million bucks or
722
00:35:45.989 --> 00:35:47.769
someone else gives me a million bucks, I can do
723
00:35:47.789 --> 00:35:48.489
the exact.
724
00:35:48.230 --> 00:35:48.889
Same thing with it.
725
00:35:49.389 --> 00:35:54.550
So, so in that regard, then the venture business is undifferentiated.
726
00:35:54.590 --> 00:35:58.489
If you think that it's just about getting the money, Now,
727
00:35:58.550 --> 00:36:00.369
it turns out that's not what it's about, right? It
728
00:36:00.449 --> 00:36:02.489
is about getting money, but then it's about having the
729
00:36:02.570 --> 00:36:07.179
help and the relationship and the guidance and all of
730
00:36:07.219 --> 00:36:11.280
these things that venture capitalists can provide. And so my
731
00:36:11.320 --> 00:36:15.090
view is like in the end, the best thing I
732
00:36:15.130 --> 00:36:16.650
can do is tell you to go talk to the
733
00:36:16.670 --> 00:36:18.849
people with whom I work because I've been doing this
734
00:36:18.909 --> 00:36:21.789
for 17 years. And so I've worked with lots of
735
00:36:21.809 --> 00:36:25.179
people and they can give you a sense of what it,
736
00:36:25.789 --> 00:36:28.300
what is it that you'll get out of a relationship
737
00:36:28.320 --> 00:36:31.699
with me that is more than just money. And, uh,
738
00:36:32.199 --> 00:36:34.900
and hopefully the answer they get is, is, is that
739
00:36:34.960 --> 00:36:39.699
you're getting a thoughtful long-term investor who's, who's worried about
740
00:36:39.739 --> 00:36:41.869
your interests at, at, at the end of the day.
741
00:36:42.590 --> 00:36:46.690
And that turns out to actually be differentiated. Like there are,
742
00:36:46.710 --> 00:36:50.139
there's certainly plenty of VCs who take that same worldview and,
743
00:36:50.630 --> 00:36:53.030
want to be helpful and want to be think long
744
00:36:53.070 --> 00:36:58.590
term and they and they consistently put the company's interest
745
00:36:58.630 --> 00:37:01.889
ahead of their own because in the end you know
746
00:37:01.949 --> 00:37:06.500
venture investors have have have more or less the same
747
00:37:06.539 --> 00:37:10.219
interests as those founders they've backed. The earlier you invest
748
00:37:10.260 --> 00:37:12.079
in a company, the more likely it is that what
749
00:37:12.119 --> 00:37:14.360
you're trying to do is make the company more successful,
750
00:37:14.400 --> 00:37:17.599
get to some outcome that's good for everybody.
751
00:37:18.059 --> 00:37:19.880
And so, I don't know.
752
00:37:19.920 --> 00:37:22.159
I mean, I ultimately think that the best thing I
753
00:37:22.199 --> 00:37:27.030
can say from a differentiation standpoint is, that I actually
754
00:37:27.090 --> 00:37:29.969
genuinely care about the people with whom I work, and
755
00:37:30.010 --> 00:37:32.730
I take a very long view, and I will do
756
00:37:33.130 --> 00:37:36.070
the things necessary to help make them successful.
757
00:37:36.429 --> 00:37:39.190
And you provide a list of every single person you
758
00:37:39.210 --> 00:37:40.610
ever worked with, right? And say, hey, call them.
759
00:37:40.630 --> 00:37:41.329
Call all of them.
760
00:37:41.469 --> 00:37:42.489
Anybody you want, right?
761
00:37:43.050 --> 00:37:43.559
I just did it.
762
00:37:43.760 --> 00:37:48.880
The guy I just gave the unending term sheet along
763
00:37:48.920 --> 00:37:51.340
with the term sheet got a spreadsheet of, here are
764
00:37:51.380 --> 00:37:54.159
all the founders, here are all the CEOs. Happy to
765
00:37:54.179 --> 00:37:57.159
introduce you to anyone. And by the way, this particular
766
00:37:57.639 --> 00:38:01.519
individual had worked with me. Interestingly, this individual who I
767
00:38:01.559 --> 00:38:03.760
just gave a term sheet to had been involved in
768
00:38:03.800 --> 00:38:06.699
the company where I lost $ 35.
769
00:38:05.460 --> 00:38:06.639
Million, right?
770
00:38:06.929 --> 00:38:10.150
So he has seen what it's like to work with
771
00:38:10.190 --> 00:38:13.210
me in good times and bad. That company got up
772
00:38:13.250 --> 00:38:16.110
to over $ 100 million in revenue. It was doing great,
773
00:38:16.250 --> 00:38:20.179
and then it wasn't. And I didn't change who I
774
00:38:20.219 --> 00:38:22.619
was in that process. And the byproduct of that is
775
00:38:22.659 --> 00:38:26.199
that when this particular gentleman went on to build another business,
776
00:38:27.179 --> 00:38:31.530
he came to me and was interested in working with me.
777
00:38:31.590 --> 00:38:33.909
And that's– as much as anything, that's the sort of
778
00:38:33.949 --> 00:38:35.530
thing that you hope for.
779
00:38:36.909 --> 00:38:39.889
You also created a conference called The Lobby. Is that right?
780
00:38:39.909 --> 00:38:40.610
Do you still do that?
781
00:38:42.039 --> 00:38:42.300
I do.
782
00:38:42.360 --> 00:38:43.519
I actually have two of them now.
783
00:38:44.250 --> 00:38:47.670
I have a digital media conference and an enterprise sort
784
00:38:47.690 --> 00:38:51.230
of business-to-business conference.
785
00:38:51.349 --> 00:38:53.190
Talk to me about the lobby. I know there's some
786
00:38:53.250 --> 00:38:55.710
differences about that. No panels.
787
00:38:55.730 --> 00:38:58.789
I saw Reid Hoffman writing about that, the fact that
788
00:38:58.889 --> 00:39:03.159
panels are the worst at conferences. Mainly, I went to
789
00:39:03.179 --> 00:39:05.619
a great conference called Mastermind Talks by Jason Gaynard, who's
790
00:39:05.639 --> 00:39:07.980
been a guest here. Jason sets it up, I think,
791
00:39:08.000 --> 00:39:10.699
in a similar manner in the fact that some of
792
00:39:10.739 --> 00:39:15.139
the best work or best conversations happened during the breaks.
793
00:39:16.239 --> 00:39:20.239
People are getting lunch or coffee or just in between sessions.
794
00:39:20.300 --> 00:39:23.280
And so he tries to create an event where it's
795
00:39:23.340 --> 00:39:26.170
almost like the entire thing's a break. So is that,
796
00:39:26.190 --> 00:39:28.489
and from what I've read, it sounds like you have
797
00:39:28.510 --> 00:39:30.980
a similar viewpoint when it comes to conferences and that's
798
00:39:31.000 --> 00:39:32.599
what the lobby is all about.
799
00:39:32.639 --> 00:39:33.239
Can you share more?
800
00:39:33.940 --> 00:39:34.739
Yeah, that's right.
801
00:39:34.800 --> 00:39:38.139
I mean it's– my view is that the best value
802
00:39:38.179 --> 00:39:42.199
you get out of conferences– the best value from conferences
803
00:39:42.239 --> 00:39:45.860
are the relationships and the conversations you have, not the content.
804
00:39:46.539 --> 00:39:50.579
And I go to great conferences. conferences that have great content.
805
00:39:50.599 --> 00:39:52.400
I've been going to the TED conference for almost two
806
00:39:52.440 --> 00:39:55.800
decades and it's obviously known for its content. And yet
807
00:39:56.199 --> 00:39:58.619
even at the TED conference, I get way more value
808
00:39:58.659 --> 00:40:01.599
out of the conversations I have with the other attendees
809
00:40:01.889 --> 00:40:04.590
than I do sitting in the, in the room, listening
810
00:40:04.650 --> 00:40:07.230
to these TED talks. They're great. You know, we've all
811
00:40:07.269 --> 00:40:11.090
seen them, but the real and interesting conversations are happening
812
00:40:11.190 --> 00:40:11.969
out in the lobby.
813
00:40:12.670 --> 00:40:15.300
Uh, there's this really, you.
814
00:40:14.780 --> 00:40:21.250
Know, entertaining Israeli, uh, investor named Josie Vardy. And it
815
00:40:21.289 --> 00:40:23.110
was funny, Josie and I were sort of circling around
816
00:40:23.170 --> 00:40:25.739
at TED, and Josie had a table that he sat
817
00:40:25.860 --> 00:40:30.260
at for the entirety of the TED conference, where people
818
00:40:30.280 --> 00:40:30.679
would come.
819
00:40:30.599 --> 00:40:32.510
And go and sit down with him and chat with him, whatever.
820
00:40:32.829 --> 00:40:35.570
But The whole time, Yossi was sitting at this one
821
00:40:35.610 --> 00:40:38.429
table because his view was, oh, I want to catch
822
00:40:38.469 --> 00:40:40.690
up with the people who are here. It's not about
823
00:40:41.030 --> 00:40:44.090
the TED Talks. It's about the folks who are here,
824
00:40:44.710 --> 00:40:45.170
and I want.
825
00:40:45.090 --> 00:40:45.650
To talk to them.
826
00:40:46.230 --> 00:40:47.050
And that's the lobby.
827
00:40:47.090 --> 00:40:49.530
In the end, it's an invite-only event so that I
828
00:40:49.550 --> 00:40:53.920
can get the very best possible people and All of
829
00:40:53.960 --> 00:40:56.500
the people who come to lobby would be speakers in
830
00:40:56.519 --> 00:40:57.420
these other conferences.
831
00:40:57.440 --> 00:40:58.699
They'd be the panelists.
832
00:40:58.840 --> 00:41:02.059
So it's not like you're not going to get valuable knowledge,
833
00:41:02.139 --> 00:41:03.860
but you're going to get it directly from them, and
834
00:41:03.880 --> 00:41:07.079
you're going to get it in a conversation. You're going
835
00:41:07.099 --> 00:41:09.570
to propose the topics you think are interesting to you,
836
00:41:09.590 --> 00:41:14.599
and people sit around– It's in Hawaii, so you kind
837
00:41:14.619 --> 00:41:15.760
of sit out on the lawn.
838
00:41:16.059 --> 00:41:17.760
I have a warehouse in L.A.
839
00:41:17.840 --> 00:41:20.079
Full of beanbag chairs, and you sit around in a
840
00:41:20.139 --> 00:41:23.619
circle with 15 other people who care about the thing
841
00:41:23.639 --> 00:41:26.139
that you think is interesting, and you have a conversation
842
00:41:26.179 --> 00:41:26.610
for an hour.
843
00:41:27.619 --> 00:41:29.550
And you get way more out of.
844
00:41:29.550 --> 00:41:33.869
That discussion than you would sitting having the leading experts
845
00:41:33.989 --> 00:41:37.190
in a particular area up on stage talking about those things.
846
00:41:37.519 --> 00:41:39.519
So let's say people are listening and they think, oh,
847
00:41:39.559 --> 00:41:41.349
that's a great idea, David. I would love to do
848
00:41:41.389 --> 00:41:44.369
something similar, whether it's for my industry or maybe my
849
00:41:44.449 --> 00:41:47.389
community or whatever. Maybe what's some advice you'd give to
850
00:41:47.429 --> 00:41:50.139
people to creating a great event?
851
00:41:50.159 --> 00:41:51.380
It doesn't even have to be a big event. It
852
00:41:51.400 --> 00:41:52.179
could be a dinner.
853
00:41:52.280 --> 00:41:55.610
It could be just a regular event if you're trying to.
854
00:41:55.980 --> 00:41:58.500
create something, but maybe someone who has not done that before.
855
00:41:58.519 --> 00:42:00.760
And I'm personally interested in this after going to mastermind
856
00:42:00.780 --> 00:42:02.300
talks and seeing other good conferences.
857
00:42:02.800 --> 00:42:03.860
What's the advice?
858
00:42:04.179 --> 00:42:07.719
Because it sounds like the most important aspect of this
859
00:42:07.900 --> 00:42:11.099
is getting the right people in the room. And a
860
00:42:11.139 --> 00:42:12.659
lot of it probably is built upon the fact that
861
00:42:12.699 --> 00:42:16.349
you've built these great relationships over the years, I would imagine.
862
00:42:16.429 --> 00:42:19.829
So what's advice for people who would love to do
863
00:42:19.889 --> 00:42:20.769
something like the lobby?
864
00:42:22.800 --> 00:42:26.239
Well, again, start with the audience, right, because it's the
865
00:42:26.280 --> 00:42:31.440
most important thing. So you, you know, maniacally curate the
866
00:42:31.480 --> 00:42:34.900
folks who are going to participate. If it's in your industry,
867
00:42:34.960 --> 00:42:37.909
then make sure that it's the folks in your industry
868
00:42:37.969 --> 00:42:40.150
with whom you want to deal. And this goes back
869
00:42:40.170 --> 00:42:43.869
to the earlier conversation about givers and takers, right? My conference,
870
00:42:43.929 --> 00:42:45.530
if it was full of a bunch of takers, would
871
00:42:45.570 --> 00:42:48.329
not work at all because everybody would be trying to
872
00:42:48.369 --> 00:42:50.650
figure out how they could extract value from the other
873
00:42:50.690 --> 00:42:53.440
people at the event. My conference is full of a
874
00:42:53.460 --> 00:42:55.800
bunch of people who I think are givers, and therefore
875
00:42:55.840 --> 00:42:58.539
they're willing to have a set of conversations where they're
876
00:42:59.000 --> 00:43:01.880
exposing things they've done wrong in the past or offering
877
00:43:01.949 --> 00:43:04.789
up opportunities or advice, et cetera, to others in the future.
878
00:43:05.369 --> 00:43:08.190
And as a result, it becomes a real community of people.
879
00:43:08.710 --> 00:43:10.909
And so when something comes up, you can say, oh,
880
00:43:10.969 --> 00:43:13.170
I remember I was having that conversation with David Hornick
881
00:43:13.210 --> 00:43:16.030
at the lobby, and you email me and say, hey,
882
00:43:16.090 --> 00:43:17.739
do you have two seconds because I have this issue?
883
00:43:17.820 --> 00:43:21.940
And whoever it is emails you back immediately. because it's
884
00:43:21.980 --> 00:43:26.139
a community. So gather the right set of people. Then
885
00:43:26.219 --> 00:43:30.090
the format that I like is what's called an unconference,
886
00:43:30.170 --> 00:43:32.869
and I certainly didn't invent it. I went to Tim
887
00:43:32.909 --> 00:43:37.570
O'Reilly's conference called FooCamp, which was basically a gathering of the...
888
00:43:37.710 --> 00:43:40.309
Foo stands for Friends of O'Reilly, where he gathered up
889
00:43:40.369 --> 00:43:43.650
an incredibly smart group of people, and they just proposed
890
00:43:43.670 --> 00:43:45.510
the things they wanted to talk about in any given
891
00:43:45.570 --> 00:43:47.949
conference room, and people gathered around and talked about it.
892
00:43:48.389 --> 00:43:50.929
So That's the format. And the question is just how
893
00:43:50.949 --> 00:43:53.809
do you gather the topics and then how do you
894
00:43:54.230 --> 00:43:57.630
convince people to engage in the conversation? And a lot
895
00:43:57.670 --> 00:44:00.960
of it, the magic is about that. And for me,
896
00:44:01.019 --> 00:44:02.760
all I do is reach out to the community who
897
00:44:02.780 --> 00:44:04.800
are coming and say, what's interesting to you? What is
898
00:44:04.880 --> 00:44:08.539
something that's sufficiently interesting you want to spend? You'd be
899
00:44:08.559 --> 00:44:10.929
willing to lead a conversation about it. And I get
900
00:44:11.010 --> 00:44:13.230
hundreds of topics. I kind of look through and go,
901
00:44:13.269 --> 00:44:16.639
all right, here's Here's some that people shared interests in,
902
00:44:16.719 --> 00:44:19.079
put them together, et cetera. And then I just put
903
00:44:19.119 --> 00:44:21.099
out a schedule and say, you know, from 10 to
904
00:44:21.099 --> 00:44:23.460
11 at the big number one is this discussion or
905
00:44:23.480 --> 00:44:25.659
the big number two is this, the three is this,
906
00:44:25.800 --> 00:44:27.719
the four is that. And people get a schedule and
907
00:44:27.739 --> 00:44:30.800
they look and say, oh, this conversation is interesting to me.
908
00:44:31.360 --> 00:44:33.880
And they go and sit down. And the byproduct is
909
00:44:33.940 --> 00:44:37.030
the people who show up for that conversation are the
910
00:44:37.110 --> 00:44:39.429
ones who are interested in it. So not surprisingly, it
911
00:44:39.449 --> 00:44:41.070
becomes a more interesting conversation.
912
00:44:41.090 --> 00:44:43.289
And you've been doing this for how long?
913
00:44:45.269 --> 00:44:50.050
This will be the 11th year of the lobby conference,
914
00:44:50.090 --> 00:44:56.050
my initial conference. And in the meantime, I'm engaged in
915
00:44:56.090 --> 00:45:00.679
this lobby enterprise business, which is my enterprise conference.
916
00:45:00.719 --> 00:45:02.119
I think this is the fifth year.
917
00:45:03.179 --> 00:45:05.500
Okay. What's the difference in the 11th year from the
918
00:45:05.559 --> 00:45:06.019
first year?
919
00:45:08.960 --> 00:45:13.449
I made some tactical choices in the first year that
920
00:45:13.489 --> 00:45:14.010
were illogical.
921
00:45:14.690 --> 00:45:17.909
Like what?
922
00:45:18.909 --> 00:45:22.670
The two most significant were that my conference actually starts
923
00:45:22.730 --> 00:45:25.489
with a game of sorts. It's sort of this complicated
924
00:45:25.530 --> 00:45:28.760
puzzle race that gets everybody to have fun and do
925
00:45:28.800 --> 00:45:33.159
interesting stuff. And the first year, that puzzle lasted the
926
00:45:33.179 --> 00:45:36.079
better part of a day. And that was just too much,
927
00:45:36.159 --> 00:45:38.000
it turns out. It was awesome and people had a
928
00:45:38.039 --> 00:45:40.059
lot of fun, but it was too much.
929
00:45:40.159 --> 00:45:42.940
That was the first one. And then.
930
00:45:43.679 --> 00:45:47.699
The second one is that when I started it, I
931
00:45:48.079 --> 00:45:50.920
thought I should still have conference rooms and have people
932
00:45:50.940 --> 00:45:55.239
gather in conference rooms, et cetera, for these conversations. And quickly,
933
00:45:55.300 --> 00:45:58.000
people sort of took their chairs and went outside. And
934
00:45:58.019 --> 00:46:00.510
I realized that, oh, actually, it's way better when you're
935
00:46:00.550 --> 00:46:02.929
sitting out on the lawn or you're sitting on the beach.
936
00:46:03.309 --> 00:46:06.289
People are just more relaxed when they're outside and enjoying
937
00:46:06.329 --> 00:46:09.690
the sun. So now, as long as it's not raining,
938
00:46:09.710 --> 00:46:13.909
I don't I take everybody out on the beach or
939
00:46:13.929 --> 00:46:17.300
out on the lawn or out under the stars and
940
00:46:17.340 --> 00:46:19.539
make sure that they enjoy the outdoors.
941
00:46:20.699 --> 00:46:23.460
That's awesome. I love the thought of that.
942
00:46:23.480 --> 00:46:25.800
I know you could probably tell I'm just innately curious
943
00:46:25.860 --> 00:46:32.309
about getting quality givers together with the hope that the
944
00:46:33.250 --> 00:46:36.940
sum of those parts would be better than each of
945
00:46:36.980 --> 00:46:40.780
them individually. And I'm very interested in doing that. That's
946
00:46:40.820 --> 00:46:42.760
why I was asking. When I was reading about it,
947
00:46:42.760 --> 00:46:45.340
I loved that you did it. Is it even something
948
00:46:45.380 --> 00:46:48.780
that you make money on or maybe it's a cost
949
00:46:48.989 --> 00:46:52.349
or you break even? How do financials play into an
950
00:46:52.389 --> 00:46:52.989
event like that?
951
00:46:53.820 --> 00:46:53.960
Yeah.
952
00:46:53.980 --> 00:46:57.380
The goal is to break even. I, uh, it's, I
953
00:46:57.400 --> 00:46:59.400
do lots of crazy things that cost a bunch of money.
954
00:46:59.460 --> 00:47:01.190
I used, I used to think that it was going
955
00:47:01.210 --> 00:47:02.949
to be, Oh, this is a pretty cheap event to run.
956
00:47:02.989 --> 00:47:04.789
You just go out to a hotel and you sit
957
00:47:04.809 --> 00:47:07.610
around the lawn and the bed budgets, you know, more
958
00:47:07.650 --> 00:47:08.449
than a million.
959
00:47:08.190 --> 00:47:10.650
Dollars for, for a couple of days. So it's an
960
00:47:10.690 --> 00:47:11.469
expensive event.
961
00:47:12.070 --> 00:47:13.889
And so I have sponsors and people pay for it,
962
00:47:13.909 --> 00:47:16.500
et cetera, but I don't worry too much about it.
963
00:47:16.539 --> 00:47:19.360
And so occasionally we lose, lose some money and my
964
00:47:19.420 --> 00:47:22.889
partners and I make up the difference. Um, But our
965
00:47:22.929 --> 00:47:25.500
view is that in the end, this is about creating
966
00:47:25.539 --> 00:47:29.280
a great experience for the attendees, and that's what we're
967
00:47:29.360 --> 00:47:33.320
optimizing for. We're not optimizing to break even. We're not
968
00:47:33.409 --> 00:47:34.570
optimizing to make money.
969
00:47:34.889 --> 00:47:38.449
We're trying to create this community event that creates value.
970
00:47:39.230 --> 00:47:40.170
About the experience.
971
00:47:41.409 --> 00:47:44.849
Well, David, thank you so much for being here, man,
972
00:47:44.929 --> 00:47:49.050
and chatting for 45 plus minutes. I really appreciate it.
973
00:47:49.730 --> 00:47:52.550
Is there anything that you really wanted to say or
974
00:47:52.590 --> 00:47:56.659
that I potentially missed? Whether it's advice or thoughts or
975
00:47:56.699 --> 00:47:59.320
just a mindset that you want people to have before
976
00:47:59.360 --> 00:47:59.840
we take off?
977
00:48:01.820 --> 00:48:06.239
No, I mean, look, I think that the goal in
978
00:48:06.260 --> 00:48:08.730
life is to have a good time, right?
979
00:48:08.769 --> 00:48:12.039
Is to enjoy your life. All these other things are
980
00:48:12.079 --> 00:48:14.280
just serving that as far as I'm.
981
00:48:14.199 --> 00:48:14.900
Concerned, right?
982
00:48:15.179 --> 00:48:18.590
What's the point of being quote unquote successful if it
983
00:48:18.639 --> 00:48:21.849
was an unpleasant process, you didn't enjoy it, you were unhappy,
984
00:48:21.909 --> 00:48:23.989
et cetera, you were surrounded by people you didn't like?
985
00:48:25.010 --> 00:48:29.369
And so I think my goal is to surround myself
986
00:48:29.409 --> 00:48:32.969
with people who I enjoy doing something that I think
987
00:48:32.989 --> 00:48:37.690
is uh, is on the whole fun and engaging can't
988
00:48:37.769 --> 00:48:39.949
always be fun. It can't always be engaging. It doesn't
989
00:48:39.989 --> 00:48:43.809
always work, but you know, but the goal is to enjoy,
990
00:48:44.170 --> 00:48:47.389
enjoy my life. And if something you're doing is not
991
00:48:47.710 --> 00:48:50.619
meeting that criteria, then see what else is out there. Right. I,
992
00:48:51.139 --> 00:48:53.239
I was, I was a litigator and then I was
993
00:48:53.260 --> 00:48:57.139
a corporate attorney. I bounced around for multiple firms in
994
00:48:57.219 --> 00:49:00.460
every instance, My change in life was a very positive
995
00:49:00.519 --> 00:49:05.000
one and I moved my life forward and into a
996
00:49:05.039 --> 00:49:07.039
sort of happier world.
997
00:49:07.139 --> 00:49:11.570
And so think about what makes you happy and optimize
998
00:49:11.610 --> 00:49:13.889
for happy. Don't optimize for any of this other stuff.
999
00:49:14.449 --> 00:49:17.849
How is making– I don't know how much money you're
1000
00:49:17.869 --> 00:49:18.789
worth or how much you make.
1001
00:49:18.849 --> 00:49:19.969
I assume you do very well.
1002
00:49:20.769 --> 00:49:25.030
Uh, how has make, you know, being financially secure changed
1003
00:49:25.130 --> 00:49:27.090
or maybe it hasn't, or what effect has it had
1004
00:49:27.159 --> 00:49:27.639
on your life?
1005
00:49:28.510 --> 00:49:28.739
Yeah.
1006
00:49:28.909 --> 00:49:31.800
I mean, look, if you had to choose between having
1007
00:49:31.860 --> 00:49:33.840
a job you love that makes, you know, a little
1008
00:49:33.860 --> 00:49:35.840
bit of money or having a job that you love
1009
00:49:35.860 --> 00:49:36.280
that makes a.
1010
00:49:36.280 --> 00:49:38.400
Lot of money, you might as well choose the latter. Um,
1011
00:49:39.860 --> 00:49:41.840
And it just depends.
1012
00:49:41.960 --> 00:49:45.760
I have partners who their goal is to make a
1013
00:49:45.800 --> 00:49:48.469
bunch of money because they like the money. They want
1014
00:49:48.510 --> 00:49:53.730
to accumulate money. And for them, that's what creates happiness.
1015
00:49:54.889 --> 00:49:58.039
To them, I say, that's fantastic. You can do whatever
1016
00:49:58.079 --> 00:50:00.840
you want with the money. For me, it has always
1017
00:50:00.880 --> 00:50:04.039
been the case that if I make more money, I
1018
00:50:04.059 --> 00:50:06.579
can give away more money. I think that that is fulfilling,
1019
00:50:07.179 --> 00:50:09.239
which isn't to say I live some austere life.
1020
00:50:09.480 --> 00:50:09.860
I don't.
1021
00:50:10.659 --> 00:50:13.469
I live a very good life. I'm very lucky in
1022
00:50:13.510 --> 00:50:16.309
that regard. But truthfully, I think the biggest difference is
1023
00:50:16.349 --> 00:50:19.469
the capacity to support the things that are important to you.
1024
00:50:19.570 --> 00:50:21.369
I'm on the board of GLAAD. I think it's an
1025
00:50:21.409 --> 00:50:25.659
important organization. that supports the LGBTQ community and I've had
1026
00:50:25.679 --> 00:50:27.900
the good fortune to be able to support it both
1027
00:50:27.940 --> 00:50:30.980
with time and money. My wife and I are involved
1028
00:50:31.059 --> 00:50:34.239
at Stanford's Art Museum and we've had the good fortune
1029
00:50:34.280 --> 00:50:37.489
of being able to afford to buy some amazing art
1030
00:50:37.550 --> 00:50:39.119
to give to the museum.
1031
00:50:39.320 --> 00:50:41.389
And that's great.
1032
00:50:41.449 --> 00:50:45.869
It's art that will be there forever and will make
1033
00:50:45.929 --> 00:50:49.780
lots of people happy. Anyway, having money is great, but
1034
00:50:49.820 --> 00:50:51.460
I don't think it's the be all and end all.
1035
00:50:51.500 --> 00:50:53.659
And there's a bunch of research that says that after
1036
00:50:53.699 --> 00:50:57.420
you've made $ 75, 000 or $ 100, 000, the rest of it is
1037
00:50:57.480 --> 00:50:59.780
not going to change how happy you are. Now, in
1038
00:50:59.800 --> 00:51:02.420
the Bay Area, it's probably a higher number than that.
1039
00:51:02.639 --> 00:51:04.360
And in New Hampshire, where I grew up, it may
1040
00:51:04.380 --> 00:51:07.579
be a lower number. But in the end, happiness is
1041
00:51:07.619 --> 00:51:10.260
about the people with whom you surround yourself. It's not
1042
00:51:10.300 --> 00:51:13.619
about the stuff that's sitting, you know, the car you
1043
00:51:13.639 --> 00:51:17.849
drive or whatever. And so, you know, I happily drive
1044
00:51:17.869 --> 00:51:21.570
a Mini. It's not a very expensive car, but it's fun, and.
1045
00:51:21.550 --> 00:51:22.269
It's a convertible.
1046
00:51:22.449 --> 00:51:23.030
Drive a what?
1047
00:51:23.750 --> 00:51:25.179
A Mini. A Mini.
1048
00:51:25.199 --> 00:51:29.059
Wait, like a Mini Cooper? Yeah, exactly.
1049
00:51:29.119 --> 00:51:29.360
Really?
1050
00:51:29.500 --> 00:51:30.920
That's your primary car?
1051
00:51:31.500 --> 00:51:32.960
An orange Mini Cooper.
1052
00:51:33.099 --> 00:51:33.920
Why do you drive that?
1053
00:51:34.639 --> 00:51:35.199
It's fun.
1054
00:51:35.219 --> 00:51:36.639
Do you also have a Tesla in the garage? No,
1055
00:51:36.639 --> 00:51:36.980
I drive a Mini.
1056
00:51:37.000 --> 00:51:37.099
Nice.
1057
00:51:43.420 --> 00:51:44.760
I love it, man. That's great.
1058
00:51:45.119 --> 00:51:47.699
David, this has been even better than I expected. I
1059
00:51:47.719 --> 00:51:50.929
had very high expectations. I could tell from your demeanor.
1060
00:51:51.219 --> 00:51:52.750
You know you can tell when some people just seem
1061
00:51:52.829 --> 00:51:55.329
to be happy with what's going on.
1062
00:51:55.349 --> 00:51:57.070
They don't have to fake it. They just kind of are.
1063
00:51:57.530 --> 00:51:58.789
And I get that sense from you.
1064
00:51:58.849 --> 00:52:01.349
So I had to acknowledge that feeling where you're not
1065
00:52:01.389 --> 00:52:04.389
trying to overcomplicate things or try to sound smarter than
1066
00:52:04.429 --> 00:52:06.300
you are. You're obviously a very intelligent guy, a Harvard
1067
00:52:06.320 --> 00:52:09.800
Law School guy. You go back and teach. You're very giving,
1068
00:52:10.500 --> 00:52:14.610
but it seems like your reputation of having a very
1069
00:52:14.889 --> 00:52:19.349
small or non-existent ego seems to be exactly dead on, man.
1070
00:52:19.409 --> 00:52:20.710
So I really appreciate it.
1071
00:52:20.710 --> 00:52:22.570
Hey, thanks so much.
1072
00:52:22.989 --> 00:52:23.820
All right. Thanks, David.
1073
00:52:24.579 --> 00:52:24.880
All righty.
1074
00:52:24.900 --> 00:52:25.199
Bye.
1075
00:52:25.480 --> 00:52:28.820
Bye. This episode of The Learning Leader Show is over,
1076
00:52:28.920 --> 00:52:30.960
but we have plenty more to keep you locked in
1077
00:52:31.019 --> 00:52:35.460
until next time. Head over to learningleadershow.com for more information
1078
00:52:35.760 --> 00:52:40.010
and to request your favorite entrepreneur, CEO, world-class athlete, or
1079
00:52:40.139 --> 00:52:42.889
anyone else that inspires you. You can also talk to
1080
00:52:42.909 --> 00:52:46.489
Ryan directly by reaching out to him on Twitter at RyanHawk12.
1081
00:52:47.030 --> 00:52:49.090
Thanks again, and we'll see you next time on The
1082
00:52:49.130 --> 00:52:49.989
Learning Leader Show.
1083
00:52:57.090 --> 00:52:59.849
This episode is brought to you by my friends at
1084
00:52:59.929 --> 00:53:04.289
Callaway Golf. Callaway's business and marketing approach has turned heads
1085
00:53:04.349 --> 00:53:06.610
over the last several years, helping the company make a
1086
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1087
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1088
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1090
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1091
00:53:26.239 --> 00:53:30.269
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1092
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1093
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All you have to do.
1094
00:53:36.380 --> 00:53:40.320
Is put your favorite leadership quote pulled from an episode
1095
00:53:40.500 --> 00:53:44.480
of The Learning Leader Show on Twitter or Instagram.
1096
00:53:44.519 --> 00:53:45.300
So pull your.
1097
00:53:45.360 --> 00:53:49.619
Favorite leadership quote that any of the greatest leadership minds
1098
00:53:49.699 --> 00:53:51.920
over the last three years from The Learning Leader Show
1099
00:53:51.960 --> 00:53:55.900
has said. Quote them on Twitter or Instagram and tag them.
1100
00:53:56.300 --> 00:54:02.909
my name, at RyanHawk12, at RyanHawk12 on Twitter or Instagram.
1101
00:54:03.389 --> 00:54:06.360
My team will gather all of the quotes, and you
1102
00:54:06.400 --> 00:54:08.219
can enter as many times as you'd like. The more
1103
00:54:08.260 --> 00:54:10.440
times that you enter, the better chance you have of winning.
1104
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And over the course of a few months, we will
1105
00:54:13.429 --> 00:54:15.769
gather them all and then we will draw a random winner.
1106
00:54:15.829 --> 00:54:18.650
And my friends at Callaway will send you the GBB
1107
00:54:18.889 --> 00:54:20.010
Epic Driver.
1108
00:54:20.090 --> 00:54:21.090
Thank you so much.
1109
00:54:21.130 --> 00:54:24.329
I look forward to seeing all of your great responses
1110
00:54:24.449 --> 00:54:27.449
on Twitter and Instagram at RyanHawk12. And thank you to
1111
00:54:27.489 --> 00:54:29.050
my friends at Callaway Golf.