WEBVTT
1
00:00:01.100 --> 00:00:16.679
You're listening to Comedy Central. Welcome back to The Daily Show.
2
00:00:16.980 --> 00:00:20.280
My guest tonight is a pro-publica reporter whose recent article
3
00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:23.320
in collaboration with The New Yorker investigates 3M' s use of
4
00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:24.339
forever chemicals.
5
00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:26.179
Please welcome Sharon Lerner.
6
00:00:32.390 --> 00:00:32.700
How are you?
7
00:00:32.710 --> 00:00:42.759
Thank you for being here. All right.
8
00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:43.600
Thank you for coming.
9
00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:45.859
Thank you for writing this piece.
10
00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:50.969
This is a testament to investigative journalism. How long does
11
00:00:51.009 --> 00:00:52.229
it take to write this piece?
12
00:00:52.789 --> 00:00:54.509
Well, it took about a year.
13
00:00:54.770 --> 00:00:57.609
A little more than a year, but I was doing
14
00:00:57.670 --> 00:00:58.549
other things.
15
00:00:58.530 --> 00:00:58.969
In the middle.
16
00:01:01.240 --> 00:01:06.099
What exactly are forever chemicals? What did 3M do? What
17
00:01:06.140 --> 00:01:08.040
were you uncovering in this piece?
18
00:01:08.340 --> 00:01:09.519
Yeah.
19
00:01:09.540 --> 00:01:15.189
So I was writing about forever chemicals, which are PFAS
20
00:01:15.370 --> 00:01:18.670
is the name of the compounds. And basically they're called
21
00:01:18.709 --> 00:01:23.129
forever chemicals because they last forever in the environment and
22
00:01:23.390 --> 00:01:24.950
they accumulate in your body.
23
00:01:25.769 --> 00:01:27.829
And we all knew, we've known for a.
24
00:01:27.810 --> 00:01:31.480
While that 3M made these chemicals and I have been
25
00:01:31.519 --> 00:01:34.859
reporting on them for a while. What was new with
26
00:01:34.900 --> 00:01:38.040
this story was that someone who had worked in the
27
00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:42.459
company came to me and offered to tell me her story.
28
00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:47.709
And it ended up shedding terrible light really on the
29
00:01:47.769 --> 00:01:54.049
company and on the delay, the decades of delay for
30
00:01:54.090 --> 00:01:58.010
them to reveal the truth of what was going on.
31
00:01:58.469 --> 00:02:04.840
She was testing blood and was finding that everyone's blood
32
00:02:05.060 --> 00:02:06.299
had forever chemicals in it.
33
00:02:06.420 --> 00:02:09.340
And how did 3M respond to her research?
34
00:02:09.469 --> 00:02:12.229
Right, so she ended up, she was asked by her
35
00:02:12.270 --> 00:02:15.389
boss to test all these blood samples. And these were
36
00:02:15.449 --> 00:02:19.449
samples of blood from the general public. So she starts
37
00:02:19.530 --> 00:02:23.430
testing them and she keeps finding trace amounts of this chemical, PFOS,
38
00:02:23.509 --> 00:02:26.469
which was made by her employer in everyone's blood.
39
00:02:26.729 --> 00:02:28.090
It's not supposed to be there, right?
40
00:02:28.569 --> 00:02:31.129
And then she tests different parts of the country, she
41
00:02:31.210 --> 00:02:35.370
tests animals. And she finally brings her results to her boss.
42
00:02:35.889 --> 00:02:42.490
And in response, her superiors were not happy with her work.
43
00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:45.330
She thought they would be happy. You found this amazing thing.
44
00:02:45.349 --> 00:02:47.400
She's a scientist. Yeah, she's a scientist.
45
00:02:47.409 --> 00:02:50.180
She's in the environmental lab. That's her job, right?
46
00:02:50.780 --> 00:02:54.060
And in fact, what they ended up doing was questioning
47
00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:57.099
her and saying, this can't be right. And your equipment
48
00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:58.340
is probably messed up.
49
00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:02.629
And why don't you repeat the experiment? And eventually... What.
50
00:03:02.550 --> 00:03:06.650
She finds is that there was another chemist at the
51
00:03:06.710 --> 00:03:10.900
company who had discovered the same thing in 1975. So
52
00:03:11.129 --> 00:03:13.120
decades earlier.
53
00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.560
And you talk about it in the article, but part
54
00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:20.900
of what solidified her belief in her research was she
55
00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:21.719
actually tested.
56
00:03:22.530 --> 00:03:25.310
Old blood? What was that?
57
00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.219
So she's testing all these samples from around the country,
58
00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:31.300
and they all contain PFOS.
59
00:03:31.419 --> 00:03:32.939
And her bosses started saying, oh, you think?
60
00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:35.060
You get PFOS, you get PFOS, you get PFOS.
61
00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:36.259
It's like, we all got it.
62
00:03:36.659 --> 00:03:39.310
Yeah, and they started saying, are you sure? Because maybe
63
00:03:39.349 --> 00:03:43.009
you just think it's everywhere, right? You just are delusional, basically.
64
00:03:43.349 --> 00:03:46.550
And then she ends up testing a sample from rural
65
00:03:46.610 --> 00:03:48.449
China and an old sample.
66
00:03:48.750 --> 00:03:48.930
Right.
67
00:03:49.310 --> 00:03:52.050
And it was the first one she tested that didn't
68
00:03:52.090 --> 00:03:53.219
have any of the chemical in it.
69
00:03:53.810 --> 00:03:55.770
And she realized, here it is.
70
00:03:55.789 --> 00:04:00.400
Someone in rural China who's probably dead at this point
71
00:04:00.460 --> 00:04:02.139
doesn't have forever chemicals in their blood.
72
00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:06.180
And then she ended up testing someone, a war veteran,
73
00:04:06.379 --> 00:04:11.560
who the blood sample was from 1957 before Scotchgard entered
74
00:04:11.590 --> 00:04:11.990
the market.
75
00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:13.669
So let's talk about that.
76
00:04:13.789 --> 00:04:14.050
What.
77
00:04:15.030 --> 00:04:18.629
What are Forever Chemicals in? You mentioned Scotchgard.
78
00:04:18.939 --> 00:04:22.699
Right, so initially they were in Scotchgard, which is this
79
00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:23.939
coating for fabrics.
80
00:04:24.579 --> 00:04:25.079
Carpets.
81
00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:26.439
Yeah, and carpets.
82
00:04:26.459 --> 00:04:27.019
Couches.
83
00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:28.040
And then they had.
84
00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.639
Also a product that was for food packaging, and it
85
00:04:30.699 --> 00:04:34.600
was also in firefighting foam. And that was the beginning.
86
00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:37.360
Now I cannot name all the products.
87
00:04:37.060 --> 00:04:40.220
That it's in. Right, right. thousands, really.
88
00:04:40.379 --> 00:04:43.579
And, you know, the companies say they're in every car
89
00:04:43.750 --> 00:04:46.689
and cell phone, they're in makeup, they're in everything. And,
90
00:04:46.910 --> 00:04:50.050
you know, 3M put out a little spreadsheet in 2022
91
00:04:50.050 --> 00:04:53.810
of just their products that contain PFAS, and it had
92
00:04:53.850 --> 00:04:55.649
more than 16,000 entries.
93
00:04:55.949 --> 00:04:58.040
I love that they put out a spreadsheet in 2022,
94
00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:02.100
and they've known about this since 1975. So, 50 years later,
95
00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:04.959
super helpful. Do you, when you start digging into this,
96
00:05:05.819 --> 00:05:07.319
when you start digging into this, do you ever just
97
00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:10.430
want to go, well, no, I don't wanna hear about
98
00:05:10.470 --> 00:05:10.949
this shit.
99
00:05:11.129 --> 00:05:13.170
Well, you know, when I dig into this, what I
100
00:05:13.209 --> 00:05:15.709
wanna do is tell people, and that's why I'm here,
101
00:05:15.730 --> 00:05:16.129
you know?
102
00:05:16.189 --> 00:05:17.209
Yes, right.
103
00:05:17.250 --> 00:05:20.060
I mean, it is utterly depressing, but I think it
104
00:05:20.100 --> 00:05:22.560
would be slightly more depressing not to report on it.
105
00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:27.899
Well, yeah, I mean, your article triggered my awareness, and
106
00:05:27.939 --> 00:05:31.439
then I remembered the Mark Ruffalo movie, Darkwater, and then
107
00:05:31.500 --> 00:05:33.290
I remembered, I looked you up, and you had written
108
00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:34.750
about this even before that.
109
00:05:34.810 --> 00:05:36.649
And it's like, holy shit, we gotta pay attention to
110
00:05:36.689 --> 00:05:37.009
this stuff.
111
00:05:39.730 --> 00:05:43.670
You know, I have a four-year-old daughter, and I often
112
00:05:43.730 --> 00:05:47.069
am trying to tell her to stop being so pushy, right?
113
00:05:47.149 --> 00:05:47.750
Hey, chill.
114
00:05:47.790 --> 00:05:50.449
You can't keep pushing back, pushing back. But then I
115
00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:52.259
meet you, and I read this, and I heard you
116
00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:54.139
say that you've got to be pushy to dig in
117
00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:58.800
and fight against 3M that made $ 14 billion last year.
118
00:05:59.660 --> 00:06:00.600
Am I a shitty parent?
119
00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:04.139
Well....
120
00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:08.170
To be an investigative journalist, you do have to be
121
00:06:08.230 --> 00:06:10.750
kind of pushy. So it depends on whether your daughter
122
00:06:10.829 --> 00:06:13.189
wants to be an investigative journalist or not.
123
00:06:13.509 --> 00:06:16.310
I mean, you're... We're working on just putting your pants
124
00:06:16.410 --> 00:06:17.750
on at this point.
125
00:06:18.389 --> 00:06:21.689
I mean, you have to find out things that people
126
00:06:21.769 --> 00:06:25.740
don't want you to know. And so, you know, so
127
00:06:25.980 --> 00:06:29.779
with this story, you know, the response I got from
128
00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:31.579
3M when I was writing about this in 2015 and 2016,
129
00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:31.740
you know.
130
00:06:34.149 --> 00:06:41.019
It's totally different from the story I got from someone
131
00:06:41.060 --> 00:06:42.019
who was on the inside.
132
00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:44.480
And it only took me nine years.
133
00:06:44.500 --> 00:06:45.920
Right, right, right.
134
00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:47.660
Is there....
135
00:06:50.410 --> 00:06:53.839
Something that you do now differently in your life, a habit,
136
00:06:53.939 --> 00:06:56.959
knowing what you know? Are you not drinking water out
137
00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:59.860
of the hose like we did in Michigan growing? I mean,
138
00:06:59.899 --> 00:07:03.529
is there just something, because look, a single American citizen
139
00:07:03.569 --> 00:07:06.389
taking on 3M or DuPont, because 3M' s not the only
140
00:07:06.449 --> 00:07:09.829
company with these, you know, what can.
141
00:07:09.730 --> 00:07:10.170
You tell me.
142
00:07:11.699 --> 00:07:14.370
That I can do or you can do, besides being aware,
143
00:07:14.410 --> 00:07:15.829
which is a positive step.
144
00:07:16.189 --> 00:07:16.509
It is.
145
00:07:16.569 --> 00:07:16.790
Yeah.
146
00:07:17.629 --> 00:07:21.009
And, you know, it is so widespread now, as you said.
147
00:07:21.029 --> 00:07:23.209
It's in tons of products. It's in water all over
148
00:07:23.250 --> 00:07:25.730
the place. So I don't actually, I mean, I don't
149
00:07:25.930 --> 00:07:27.589
use nonstick pans and that kind of thing.
150
00:07:27.610 --> 00:07:29.930
That's easy. Or microwave popcorn. That's easy.
151
00:07:30.629 --> 00:07:31.730
Don't use microwave popcorn.
152
00:07:34.379 --> 00:07:35.810
And I have to say, I don't.
153
00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:39.060
Know if it's been reformulated recently, but that was one
154
00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:40.639
of the original things that it was in.
155
00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:44.279
I'm sticking by what I said earlier.
156
00:07:46.699 --> 00:07:51.100
I mean, honestly, as an environmental reporter, a lot of
157
00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:56.899
things horrify me. I would say, actually, my reporting on
158
00:07:56.939 --> 00:07:59.759
plastics maybe left me with more of a, you know,
159
00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:00.860
changed my habits.
160
00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:03.199
So, like, I don't use single-use plastic.
161
00:08:03.220 --> 00:08:03.459
Okay.
162
00:08:04.189 --> 00:08:05.110
You cannot, yeah.
163
00:08:05.170 --> 00:08:07.100
Yeah, yeah.
164
00:08:09.819 --> 00:08:14.259
And my question is flawed to you because I always
165
00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:16.850
find in capitalism, the onus goes on us.
166
00:08:17.189 --> 00:08:17.350
Yeah.
167
00:08:17.529 --> 00:08:17.769
Right?
168
00:08:17.889 --> 00:08:20.170
Like, hey, Sharon, why are you using that plastic bottle?
169
00:08:20.189 --> 00:08:22.750
And it's like, well, I assume what's on the shelf
170
00:08:22.810 --> 00:08:23.689
is safe for me.
171
00:08:23.970 --> 00:08:24.129
Yeah.
172
00:08:24.290 --> 00:08:27.990
And that's not a safe assumption. And does our government
173
00:08:28.069 --> 00:08:28.829
step in on this?
174
00:08:28.990 --> 00:08:30.470
Where are they on this?
175
00:08:30.490 --> 00:08:34.450
Well, yeah, there are a lot of government failures here
176
00:08:34.610 --> 00:08:35.250
in this story.
177
00:08:35.460 --> 00:08:37.940
One is that when.
178
00:08:40.230 --> 00:08:43.389
The 3M ended up giving in studies that they had
179
00:08:43.429 --> 00:08:46.870
done in 1975, 1980, they finally gave them all to
180
00:08:46.889 --> 00:08:51.110
the EPA in the late 90s and 2000. So that's two,
181
00:08:51.269 --> 00:08:51.929
two and a half.
182
00:08:51.820 --> 00:08:53.480
Decades after they did them.
183
00:08:53.529 --> 00:08:55.899
You're supposed to hand this, give it in immediately if
184
00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:58.679
you see that there's evidence of real harm. So they
185
00:08:58.700 --> 00:09:03.580
were fined one and a half million dollars. And what
186
00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:04.379
they made on.
187
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:06.019
That single account. I make that a week.
188
00:09:08.230 --> 00:09:11.100
But in the year that they phased out the chemical,
189
00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:12.620
they made $ 300 million.
190
00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:14.820
So it makes no sense.
191
00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:18.289
So we have to make it actually, there have to
192
00:09:18.330 --> 00:09:21.330
be consequences for companies that do this kind of thing.
193
00:09:21.450 --> 00:09:23.019
Well, you mentioned the EPA, and there was a.
194
00:09:24.659 --> 00:09:28.009
There was a new, I forget, guideline that they've set
195
00:09:28.049 --> 00:09:31.610
up recently. This has to do with forever chemicals. And
196
00:09:31.649 --> 00:09:35.029
we're using, in the article, you used the term PFAS, right?
197
00:09:35.490 --> 00:09:36.700
But that can mean a lot of different.
198
00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:40.600
Well, PFAS is the class of compounds. And the one
199
00:09:40.659 --> 00:09:45.480
chemical that Chris, who was talking about, was discovering was PFOS.
200
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.889
That's one chemical in this class that's called PFAS. The class,
201
00:09:50.230 --> 00:09:55.779
there are thousands. So PFOS is not made anymore, but
202
00:09:55.820 --> 00:09:59.149
it's still in the drinking water. And EPA recently said
203
00:09:59.210 --> 00:10:01.820
drinking water limits for PFOS and PFOA.
204
00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:02.879
Fabulous.
205
00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:03.159
Great.
206
00:10:03.299 --> 00:10:03.559
Great.
207
00:10:03.860 --> 00:10:04.379
Very great.
208
00:10:04.779 --> 00:10:08.799
The only problem is, one, they're no longer made, but
209
00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:11.960
there are thousands of chemicals in this class, and we've
210
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:13.679
only gotten a couple.
211
00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:16.639
And it's in New York City, drinking water. I mean,
212
00:10:16.659 --> 00:10:17.899
it's in everyone's drinking water.
213
00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:18.480
Yeah.
214
00:10:19.610 --> 00:10:23.960
And now the challenge is local cities are going to
215
00:10:23.980 --> 00:10:26.539
have to find a way to pay for filtering this out.
216
00:10:26.860 --> 00:10:27.740
Right, right.
217
00:10:27.860 --> 00:10:29.980
And there is just a big suit, a big settlement
218
00:10:30.019 --> 00:10:33.360
with 3M where they're going to pay $ 12.
219
00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:35.370
5 billion. And you think, oh, that's a lot of money.
220
00:10:35.389 --> 00:10:36.429
And it's not when.
221
00:10:36.289 --> 00:10:40.149
You have to actually remove these chemicals from water everywhere.
222
00:10:40.169 --> 00:10:46.399
Right. Environmental crime, that's a new term that I recently heard,
223
00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:48.299
and when I read your piece, I said, this is
224
00:10:48.340 --> 00:10:53.730
environmental crime. 3M has committed assault on us. Maybe murder,
225
00:10:53.809 --> 00:10:58.110
depending on the classification. Has anyone at 3M, is anybody
226
00:10:58.149 --> 00:10:58.509
in trouble?
227
00:10:58.889 --> 00:10:59.549
No. No.
228
00:10:59.750 --> 00:11:00.809
Not in a criminal way.
229
00:11:00.820 --> 00:11:02.399
Sweet, love this story, you know?
230
00:11:02.419 --> 00:11:03.779
It's just.
231
00:11:03.820 --> 00:11:04.059
Yeah.
232
00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.779
Yeah, not in a criminal way, but I like the
233
00:11:07.820 --> 00:11:08.559
way you put that.
234
00:11:08.620 --> 00:11:10.320
It is a crime, right?
235
00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:13.340
And I mean, part of the reason I think it's
236
00:11:13.379 --> 00:11:18.889
a crime is because we weren't given any choice in
237
00:11:18.899 --> 00:11:19.690
the matter, right?
238
00:11:19.730 --> 00:11:20.649
So nobody said, in.
239
00:11:21.549 --> 00:11:26.740
Exchange for this beautiful stain-free couch, we're gonna put a
240
00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.679
toxic chemical in your body and leave it there forever.
241
00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:30.870
It wasn't like that.
242
00:11:30.909 --> 00:11:33.230
It was here's this product and we know this thing
243
00:11:33.269 --> 00:11:34.049
we're not telling you.
244
00:11:34.110 --> 00:11:36.990
So it's like bodily trespass, really.
245
00:11:37.090 --> 00:11:41.879
I mean, these chemicals are in infants when they're born,
246
00:11:42.259 --> 00:11:42.899
before they're born.
247
00:11:43.730 --> 00:11:47.830
One of the saddest and scariest parts was when, in
248
00:11:47.850 --> 00:11:49.710
the article you talk about, and this is gonna be
249
00:11:49.750 --> 00:11:53.960
really sad, but how women actually finally showed that they
250
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.799
had less forever chemicals in their body, but that was
251
00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:58.600
after they gave birth, because they passed it on to
252
00:11:58.620 --> 00:11:59.250
their child.
253
00:11:59.639 --> 00:11:59.850
Yeah.
254
00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:00.379
Right.
255
00:12:00.500 --> 00:12:05.009
So this is this is a problem. What can you
256
00:12:05.049 --> 00:12:08.529
leave us with? Everybody here is now newly aware. Should
257
00:12:08.549 --> 00:12:11.230
we call our Congress people? Should we stop buying plastic?
258
00:12:11.250 --> 00:12:11.629
Should we?
259
00:12:11.769 --> 00:12:14.230
Well, I mean, here's something here's something really focused.
260
00:12:14.289 --> 00:12:14.450
Great.
261
00:12:14.470 --> 00:12:16.450
I could do like the entire audience.
262
00:12:16.470 --> 00:12:20.830
I mean, so one of the crazy things is that PFAS.
263
00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:24.429
are still being, new ones, are still being introduced. So
264
00:12:24.509 --> 00:12:26.809
we still have thousands that are being used, but they're
265
00:12:26.830 --> 00:12:28.289
still introducing new ones.
266
00:12:28.710 --> 00:12:29.909
That is, like, that.
267
00:12:29.789 --> 00:12:32.190
Seems bananas to me, and that seems like.
268
00:12:32.009 --> 00:12:35.009
A very focused point that we could, you know, do
269
00:12:35.070 --> 00:12:35.549
something about.
270
00:12:35.769 --> 00:12:35.980
Yeah.
271
00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:38.360
Thank you very much for writing this article. Thank you
272
00:12:38.379 --> 00:12:40.059
for coming on The Daily Show and talking with us.
273
00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:42.299
You Make Me Sick is available online at The New
274
00:12:42.340 --> 00:12:43.360
Yorker and ProPublica.
275
00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:54.840
Sharon Lerner. Welcome back to The Daily Show.
276
00:12:54.940 --> 00:12:58.299
Now, now.
277
00:12:58.379 --> 00:13:03.330
My guest tonight, in an incredibly prescient booking by our
278
00:13:03.389 --> 00:13:05.470
talent people, is a psychotherapist.
279
00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:09.240
Hmm, fancy that.
280
00:13:10.049 --> 00:13:14.080
Best-selling author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. And
281
00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:16.899
dear therapist columnist for The Atlantic, please welcome to the program,
282
00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:17.840
Lori Gottlieb.
283
00:13:26.179 --> 00:13:26.620
Please, on the stage.
284
00:13:36.909 --> 00:13:38.669
Doctor, you're probably wondering why I've.
285
00:13:38.549 --> 00:13:39.269
Called you here tonight.
286
00:13:39.730 --> 00:13:40.129
Yes.
287
00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:42.820
Well, my therapist clearly turned off his phone, so.
288
00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:43.919
I'm sure.
289
00:13:44.139 --> 00:13:47.779
Now, are you expecting, as a therapist, on occasions like this,
290
00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:50.610
they always say, you know, the Super Bowl, people get
291
00:13:50.669 --> 00:13:52.669
so angry and they're rooting for their teams and there's
292
00:13:52.690 --> 00:13:55.289
a huge uptick in arguments and violence and all kinds
293
00:13:55.309 --> 00:13:58.710
of other things. Do you expect something similar for an
294
00:13:58.750 --> 00:13:59.360
event like this?
295
00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:01.799
Well, I think that a lot of people are going
296
00:14:01.820 --> 00:14:03.379
to be having arguments. I don't know that it's going
297
00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:05.960
to be domestic violence, but I think there's definitely going
298
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:11.039
to be a lot of arguments happening with friends, families, workplaces,
299
00:14:11.299 --> 00:14:11.649
all of it.
300
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:16.159
And you think because this is a time when the
301
00:14:16.210 --> 00:14:18.809
country is really focused on this and there's really no
302
00:14:18.850 --> 00:14:21.570
way to escape it, and so whatever schisms are there
303
00:14:21.769 --> 00:14:23.230
are going to be exacerbated?
304
00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.340
I think they are, and also just because we're so polarized.
305
00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:28.259
And I think that people don't know how to have
306
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.539
conversations about the issues. It doesn't even become about the
307
00:14:31.580 --> 00:14:33.139
issues anymore, as we just saw.
308
00:14:33.659 --> 00:14:34.620
But we are siloed.
309
00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:38.629
Isn't the siloing of the nation keep us from having
310
00:14:38.649 --> 00:14:41.769
to have those conversations? Because you don't really run into
311
00:14:41.809 --> 00:14:45.070
those people that you disagree with too much, except on Thanksgiving.
312
00:14:48.049 --> 00:14:49.809
Well, I think you run into them on social media.
313
00:14:50.299 --> 00:14:51.600
And I think that that's where a lot of this
314
00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:54.700
is happening. And then people get very upset by what
315
00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.980
they're seeing on social media. And I can understand when
316
00:14:57.019 --> 00:14:59.539
we look at the rates of anxiety and depression. You know,
317
00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:02.250
we say in therapy, before diagnosing someone with depression, make
318
00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:06.370
sure they aren't surrounded by assholes, right? So, I'm not
319
00:15:06.389 --> 00:15:07.769
gonna name who those assholes might be.
320
00:15:07.789 --> 00:15:08.850
Wait, is that really a thing?
321
00:15:08.889 --> 00:15:11.350
Like, I have depression, and you're like, well.
322
00:15:12.149 --> 00:15:14.629
Well, sometimes it's like, I understand. Look at who drove
323
00:15:14.669 --> 00:15:15.090
you here.
324
00:15:15.110 --> 00:15:15.190
Yeah.
325
00:15:16.259 --> 00:15:18.299
Look at who sent you here, because often the people
326
00:15:18.330 --> 00:15:20.490
who come to therapy are the people who are coming
327
00:15:20.509 --> 00:15:22.509
to therapy because the people who should be in therapy
328
00:15:22.769 --> 00:15:23.909
are not coming to therapy.
329
00:15:25.269 --> 00:15:30.330
That just blew my mind. So people are coming because
330
00:15:30.809 --> 00:15:33.100
they feel they don't have an outlet for their frustrations,
331
00:15:33.149 --> 00:15:36.659
and the only outlet they might have, social media, is toxic.
332
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:39.799
Well, I think that what you see on social media, again,
333
00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:43.700
is a lot of this sort of name-calling, and again,
334
00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:45.580
there's not a lot of nuance, there's not a lot
335
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.840
of complexity, it's a lot of just people fighting. It
336
00:15:48.860 --> 00:15:53.019
was like that golf exchange on the debate. It's those
337
00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:55.940
kinds of things where people are talking about completely irrelevant things,
338
00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:57.559
or they're just uninformed.
339
00:15:57.679 --> 00:15:59.259
And I think that people don't know.
340
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:00.519
Uninformed and irrelevant?
341
00:16:01.049 --> 00:16:07.519
A presidential debate. How do you deal with There is
342
00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:13.610
an existential fear to this. I mean, for social media
343
00:16:13.649 --> 00:16:17.210
to keep people engaged, for news organizations to keep people watching,
344
00:16:17.529 --> 00:16:20.990
they have to ramp up the urgency and the existential
345
00:16:21.509 --> 00:16:25.629
nature of the crisis. So you're sort of torn between
346
00:16:25.669 --> 00:16:31.820
these two impulses. One is to not participate, which would
347
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:36.600
be advocating civic responsibility. But the other would be to
348
00:16:36.940 --> 00:16:40.350
bathe yourself in this existential crisis.
349
00:16:40.419 --> 00:16:42.450
What choice do you have?
350
00:16:43.009 --> 00:16:45.129
Well, we do have a choice. So look at anxiety.
351
00:16:45.169 --> 00:16:47.690
There's productive anxiety and unproductive anxiety.
352
00:16:47.710 --> 00:16:48.450
What?
353
00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:50.830
Well, think about it.
354
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.779
If you didn't have anxiety, you wouldn't be able to
355
00:16:54.820 --> 00:16:57.100
be safe. That's why we have anxiety. It was like,
356
00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:00.480
there's a bear. You better have anxiety. Unproductive anxiety is,
357
00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:03.679
I'm just going to stand here. Productive anxiety is, I'm
358
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:05.119
going to do something about this.
359
00:17:05.299 --> 00:17:08.349
See, that's so weird because my anxiety has never saved
360
00:17:08.380 --> 00:17:12.990
me from bears, but it often convinces me I'm not lovable.
361
00:17:16.289 --> 00:17:16.670
So how.
362
00:17:21.859 --> 00:17:23.299
I shared too much.
363
00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:27.640
How do you separate? I didn't want to watch the
364
00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:29.460
debates tonight, but I do work once a week now,
365
00:17:29.500 --> 00:17:33.319
so I have to. Because it's toxic to me.
366
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:33.960
I know that.
367
00:17:34.019 --> 00:17:37.250
I have to participate. But how does that anxiety of
368
00:17:37.329 --> 00:17:40.750
watching it, how is that a relic of something.
369
00:17:40.509 --> 00:17:41.269
That's good for me?
370
00:17:42.109 --> 00:17:43.849
It's good for you because then you can take action.
371
00:17:43.890 --> 00:17:45.309
By the way, I hope you're taking action on the
372
00:17:45.329 --> 00:17:47.309
unlovable thing. I hope you're getting some help with that.
373
00:17:48.230 --> 00:17:49.599
Little thing called mushrooms, baby.
374
00:17:51.029 --> 00:17:52.299
Microdose away.
375
00:17:54.259 --> 00:17:56.720
But it's helpful because you say, okay, there are two
376
00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:58.420
ways you can respond to this. You can say, I'm
377
00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.150
gonna put my head in the sand and not engage,
378
00:18:01.190 --> 00:18:03.470
which is, I hope, not the option that people here
379
00:18:03.490 --> 00:18:07.130
are taking. And you can also say, oh, I'm just
380
00:18:07.170 --> 00:18:10.250
spinning in anxiety, I'm doom scrolling, I'm just getting all
381
00:18:10.309 --> 00:18:13.990
worked up. That's not helpful, that's unproductive anxiety. And then
382
00:18:14.029 --> 00:18:16.589
there's productive anxiety where you say, what can I do? Well,
383
00:18:16.869 --> 00:18:19.970
you can get involved in a campaign, you can volunteer,
384
00:18:20.059 --> 00:18:23.420
you can please vote. You can get the people around
385
00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:25.339
you to vote. There are things that you can do.
386
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:27.220
The thing that you want to do is you want
387
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:30.019
to say, what can I control here? And that's where
388
00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:31.700
you take your anxiety and you say, it's going to
389
00:18:31.819 --> 00:18:33.779
motivate me to do something productive.
390
00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.640
Does sitting in your underwear screaming at the TV count
391
00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:38.200
as action?
392
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:38.759
No.
393
00:18:44.029 --> 00:18:45.549
Doc, you're losing me here.
394
00:18:46.670 --> 00:18:51.789
Have you seen an effect of this on relationships, on marriages,
395
00:18:51.990 --> 00:18:57.690
on families? Is this separating people at a much deeper,
396
00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:01.019
more emotional level than what we're understanding?
397
00:19:01.299 --> 00:19:02.519
Yes, absolutely.
398
00:19:03.460 --> 00:19:06.220
You know, I when I see couples in therapy, often
399
00:19:06.259 --> 00:19:09.269
when they come in, the person, you know, you say
400
00:19:09.410 --> 00:19:11.690
what's going on and the person wants something to change.
401
00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:13.650
But what they want to change is the other person,
402
00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:14.829
the person sitting right there.
403
00:19:14.950 --> 00:19:15.230
Sure.
404
00:19:15.809 --> 00:19:17.829
They don't think I want to change myself or I
405
00:19:17.869 --> 00:19:20.119
have a role in this. And I see that in
406
00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:24.180
what happens around these political conversations is that people don't say, oh,
407
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:28.029
maybe I am not being curious about why they think
408
00:19:28.069 --> 00:19:29.950
what they think or I'm not really getting to the
409
00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:31.990
bottom of it and I'm just, you know, we're just
410
00:19:32.029 --> 00:19:33.490
yelling at each other about this.
411
00:19:33.730 --> 00:19:37.849
Are you seeing this in married couples where politics has
412
00:19:37.930 --> 00:19:41.109
driven a wedge to them that they can't overcome?
413
00:19:41.130 --> 00:19:42.230
Oh, absolutely.
414
00:19:42.730 --> 00:19:46.059
How do you traverse a political conversation with a couple?
415
00:19:46.299 --> 00:19:46.440
Yeah.
416
00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:49.950
Well, there's this great phrase in therapy. It's saying, I wonder.
417
00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:52.480
So it starts with i wonder i got it i
418
00:19:52.539 --> 00:19:54.740
wonder you know it's kind of like you know i
419
00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:58.119
wonder if instead of taking another drink maybe you should
420
00:19:58.140 --> 00:20:00.920
take a walk when you're feeling sad right um as.
421
00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:03.119
Opposed to unfortunately it's a live show we're out of
422
00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:04.920
time i always say i use that all the time
423
00:20:05.019 --> 00:20:09.170
i wonder why you're such an asshole That usually works.
424
00:20:09.470 --> 00:20:10.170
Check out Lori's book.
425
00:20:10.210 --> 00:20:11.140
Maybe you should talk to someone.
426
00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:16.680
We're calling in the Atlantic. I'm sorry we have to rush.
427
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:17.259
Lori Gottlieb.
428
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:21.180
Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by
429
00:20:21.220 --> 00:20:24.680
searching The Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts.
430
00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:26.700
Watch The Daily Show weeknights at 11.
431
00:20:26.690 --> 00:20:30.529
10 Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime
432
00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:31.380
on Paramount +.
433
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:38.009
Paramount Podcasts.
1
00:00:01.100 --> 00:00:16.679
You're listening to Comedy Central. Welcome back to The Daily Show.
2
00:00:16.980 --> 00:00:20.280
My guest tonight is a pro-publica reporter whose recent article
3
00:00:20.359 --> 00:00:23.320
in collaboration with The New Yorker investigates 3M' s use of
4
00:00:23.399 --> 00:00:24.339
forever chemicals.
5
00:00:24.719 --> 00:00:26.179
Please welcome Sharon Lerner.
6
00:00:32.390 --> 00:00:32.700
How are you?
7
00:00:32.710 --> 00:00:42.759
Thank you for being here. All right.
8
00:00:42.780 --> 00:00:43.600
Thank you for coming.
9
00:00:44.100 --> 00:00:45.859
Thank you for writing this piece.
10
00:00:46.100 --> 00:00:50.969
This is a testament to investigative journalism. How long does
11
00:00:51.009 --> 00:00:52.229
it take to write this piece?
12
00:00:52.789 --> 00:00:54.509
Well, it took about a year.
13
00:00:54.770 --> 00:00:57.609
A little more than a year, but I was doing
14
00:00:57.670 --> 00:00:58.549
other things.
15
00:00:58.530 --> 00:00:58.969
In the middle.
16
00:01:01.240 --> 00:01:06.099
What exactly are forever chemicals? What did 3M do? What
17
00:01:06.140 --> 00:01:08.040
were you uncovering in this piece?
18
00:01:08.340 --> 00:01:09.519
Yeah.
19
00:01:09.540 --> 00:01:15.189
So I was writing about forever chemicals, which are PFAS
20
00:01:15.370 --> 00:01:18.670
is the name of the compounds. And basically they're called
21
00:01:18.709 --> 00:01:23.129
forever chemicals because they last forever in the environment and
22
00:01:23.390 --> 00:01:24.950
they accumulate in your body.
23
00:01:25.769 --> 00:01:27.829
And we all knew, we've known for a.
24
00:01:27.810 --> 00:01:31.480
While that 3M made these chemicals and I have been
25
00:01:31.519 --> 00:01:34.859
reporting on them for a while. What was new with
26
00:01:34.900 --> 00:01:38.040
this story was that someone who had worked in the
27
00:01:38.120 --> 00:01:42.459
company came to me and offered to tell me her story.
28
00:01:43.760 --> 00:01:47.709
And it ended up shedding terrible light really on the
29
00:01:47.769 --> 00:01:54.049
company and on the delay, the decades of delay for
30
00:01:54.090 --> 00:01:58.010
them to reveal the truth of what was going on.
31
00:01:58.469 --> 00:02:04.840
She was testing blood and was finding that everyone's blood
32
00:02:05.060 --> 00:02:06.299
had forever chemicals in it.
33
00:02:06.420 --> 00:02:09.340
And how did 3M respond to her research?
34
00:02:09.469 --> 00:02:12.229
Right, so she ended up, she was asked by her
35
00:02:12.270 --> 00:02:15.389
boss to test all these blood samples. And these were
36
00:02:15.449 --> 00:02:19.449
samples of blood from the general public. So she starts
37
00:02:19.530 --> 00:02:23.430
testing them and she keeps finding trace amounts of this chemical, PFOS,
38
00:02:23.509 --> 00:02:26.469
which was made by her employer in everyone's blood.
39
00:02:26.729 --> 00:02:28.090
It's not supposed to be there, right?
40
00:02:28.569 --> 00:02:31.129
And then she tests different parts of the country, she
41
00:02:31.210 --> 00:02:35.370
tests animals. And she finally brings her results to her boss.
42
00:02:35.889 --> 00:02:42.490
And in response, her superiors were not happy with her work.
43
00:02:42.530 --> 00:02:45.330
She thought they would be happy. You found this amazing thing.
44
00:02:45.349 --> 00:02:47.400
She's a scientist. Yeah, she's a scientist.
45
00:02:47.409 --> 00:02:50.180
She's in the environmental lab. That's her job, right?
46
00:02:50.780 --> 00:02:54.060
And in fact, what they ended up doing was questioning
47
00:02:54.120 --> 00:02:57.099
her and saying, this can't be right. And your equipment
48
00:02:57.120 --> 00:02:58.340
is probably messed up.
49
00:02:58.479 --> 00:03:02.629
And why don't you repeat the experiment? And eventually... What.
50
00:03:02.550 --> 00:03:06.650
She finds is that there was another chemist at the
51
00:03:06.710 --> 00:03:10.900
company who had discovered the same thing in 1975. So
52
00:03:11.129 --> 00:03:13.120
decades earlier.
53
00:03:14.120 --> 00:03:17.560
And you talk about it in the article, but part
54
00:03:17.599 --> 00:03:20.900
of what solidified her belief in her research was she
55
00:03:20.960 --> 00:03:21.719
actually tested.
56
00:03:22.530 --> 00:03:25.310
Old blood? What was that?
57
00:03:25.400 --> 00:03:29.219
So she's testing all these samples from around the country,
58
00:03:29.479 --> 00:03:31.300
and they all contain PFOS.
59
00:03:31.419 --> 00:03:32.939
And her bosses started saying, oh, you think?
60
00:03:33.000 --> 00:03:35.060
You get PFOS, you get PFOS, you get PFOS.
61
00:03:35.080 --> 00:03:36.259
It's like, we all got it.
62
00:03:36.659 --> 00:03:39.310
Yeah, and they started saying, are you sure? Because maybe
63
00:03:39.349 --> 00:03:43.009
you just think it's everywhere, right? You just are delusional, basically.
64
00:03:43.349 --> 00:03:46.550
And then she ends up testing a sample from rural
65
00:03:46.610 --> 00:03:48.449
China and an old sample.
66
00:03:48.750 --> 00:03:48.930
Right.
67
00:03:49.310 --> 00:03:52.050
And it was the first one she tested that didn't
68
00:03:52.090 --> 00:03:53.219
have any of the chemical in it.
69
00:03:53.810 --> 00:03:55.770
And she realized, here it is.
70
00:03:55.789 --> 00:04:00.400
Someone in rural China who's probably dead at this point
71
00:04:00.460 --> 00:04:02.139
doesn't have forever chemicals in their blood.
72
00:04:02.199 --> 00:04:06.180
And then she ended up testing someone, a war veteran,
73
00:04:06.379 --> 00:04:11.560
who the blood sample was from 1957 before Scotchgard entered
74
00:04:11.590 --> 00:04:11.990
the market.
75
00:04:12.280 --> 00:04:13.669
So let's talk about that.
76
00:04:13.789 --> 00:04:14.050
What.
77
00:04:15.030 --> 00:04:18.629
What are Forever Chemicals in? You mentioned Scotchgard.
78
00:04:18.939 --> 00:04:22.699
Right, so initially they were in Scotchgard, which is this
79
00:04:22.759 --> 00:04:23.939
coating for fabrics.
80
00:04:24.579 --> 00:04:25.079
Carpets.
81
00:04:25.560 --> 00:04:26.439
Yeah, and carpets.
82
00:04:26.459 --> 00:04:27.019
Couches.
83
00:04:27.300 --> 00:04:28.040
And then they had.
84
00:04:27.959 --> 00:04:30.639
Also a product that was for food packaging, and it
85
00:04:30.699 --> 00:04:34.600
was also in firefighting foam. And that was the beginning.
86
00:04:34.759 --> 00:04:37.360
Now I cannot name all the products.
87
00:04:37.060 --> 00:04:40.220
That it's in. Right, right. thousands, really.
88
00:04:40.379 --> 00:04:43.579
And, you know, the companies say they're in every car
89
00:04:43.750 --> 00:04:46.689
and cell phone, they're in makeup, they're in everything. And,
90
00:04:46.910 --> 00:04:50.050
you know, 3M put out a little spreadsheet in 2022
91
00:04:50.050 --> 00:04:53.810
of just their products that contain PFAS, and it had
92
00:04:53.850 --> 00:04:55.649
more than 16,000 entries.
93
00:04:55.949 --> 00:04:58.040
I love that they put out a spreadsheet in 2022,
94
00:04:58.040 --> 00:05:02.100
and they've known about this since 1975. So, 50 years later,
95
00:05:02.220 --> 00:05:04.959
super helpful. Do you, when you start digging into this,
96
00:05:05.819 --> 00:05:07.319
when you start digging into this, do you ever just
97
00:05:07.360 --> 00:05:10.430
want to go, well, no, I don't wanna hear about
98
00:05:10.470 --> 00:05:10.949
this shit.
99
00:05:11.129 --> 00:05:13.170
Well, you know, when I dig into this, what I
100
00:05:13.209 --> 00:05:15.709
wanna do is tell people, and that's why I'm here,
101
00:05:15.730 --> 00:05:16.129
you know?
102
00:05:16.189 --> 00:05:17.209
Yes, right.
103
00:05:17.250 --> 00:05:20.060
I mean, it is utterly depressing, but I think it
104
00:05:20.100 --> 00:05:22.560
would be slightly more depressing not to report on it.
105
00:05:22.920 --> 00:05:27.899
Well, yeah, I mean, your article triggered my awareness, and
106
00:05:27.939 --> 00:05:31.439
then I remembered the Mark Ruffalo movie, Darkwater, and then
107
00:05:31.500 --> 00:05:33.290
I remembered, I looked you up, and you had written
108
00:05:33.319 --> 00:05:34.750
about this even before that.
109
00:05:34.810 --> 00:05:36.649
And it's like, holy shit, we gotta pay attention to
110
00:05:36.689 --> 00:05:37.009
this stuff.
111
00:05:39.730 --> 00:05:43.670
You know, I have a four-year-old daughter, and I often
112
00:05:43.730 --> 00:05:47.069
am trying to tell her to stop being so pushy, right?
113
00:05:47.149 --> 00:05:47.750
Hey, chill.
114
00:05:47.790 --> 00:05:50.449
You can't keep pushing back, pushing back. But then I
115
00:05:50.500 --> 00:05:52.259
meet you, and I read this, and I heard you
116
00:05:52.319 --> 00:05:54.139
say that you've got to be pushy to dig in
117
00:05:54.160 --> 00:05:58.800
and fight against 3M that made $ 14 billion last year.
118
00:05:59.660 --> 00:06:00.600
Am I a shitty parent?
119
00:06:03.540 --> 00:06:04.139
Well....
120
00:06:05.319 --> 00:06:08.170
To be an investigative journalist, you do have to be
121
00:06:08.230 --> 00:06:10.750
kind of pushy. So it depends on whether your daughter
122
00:06:10.829 --> 00:06:13.189
wants to be an investigative journalist or not.
123
00:06:13.509 --> 00:06:16.310
I mean, you're... We're working on just putting your pants
124
00:06:16.410 --> 00:06:17.750
on at this point.
125
00:06:18.389 --> 00:06:21.689
I mean, you have to find out things that people
126
00:06:21.769 --> 00:06:25.740
don't want you to know. And so, you know, so
127
00:06:25.980 --> 00:06:29.779
with this story, you know, the response I got from
128
00:06:29.800 --> 00:06:31.579
3M when I was writing about this in 2015 and 2016,
129
00:06:31.560 --> 00:06:31.740
you know.
130
00:06:34.149 --> 00:06:41.019
It's totally different from the story I got from someone
131
00:06:41.060 --> 00:06:42.019
who was on the inside.
132
00:06:42.040 --> 00:06:44.480
And it only took me nine years.
133
00:06:44.500 --> 00:06:45.920
Right, right, right.
134
00:06:46.759 --> 00:06:47.660
Is there....
135
00:06:50.410 --> 00:06:53.839
Something that you do now differently in your life, a habit,
136
00:06:53.939 --> 00:06:56.959
knowing what you know? Are you not drinking water out
137
00:06:57.000 --> 00:06:59.860
of the hose like we did in Michigan growing? I mean,
138
00:06:59.899 --> 00:07:03.529
is there just something, because look, a single American citizen
139
00:07:03.569 --> 00:07:06.389
taking on 3M or DuPont, because 3M' s not the only
140
00:07:06.449 --> 00:07:09.829
company with these, you know, what can.
141
00:07:09.730 --> 00:07:10.170
You tell me.
142
00:07:11.699 --> 00:07:14.370
That I can do or you can do, besides being aware,
143
00:07:14.410 --> 00:07:15.829
which is a positive step.
144
00:07:16.189 --> 00:07:16.509
It is.
145
00:07:16.569 --> 00:07:16.790
Yeah.
146
00:07:17.629 --> 00:07:21.009
And, you know, it is so widespread now, as you said.
147
00:07:21.029 --> 00:07:23.209
It's in tons of products. It's in water all over
148
00:07:23.250 --> 00:07:25.730
the place. So I don't actually, I mean, I don't
149
00:07:25.930 --> 00:07:27.589
use nonstick pans and that kind of thing.
150
00:07:27.610 --> 00:07:29.930
That's easy. Or microwave popcorn. That's easy.
151
00:07:30.629 --> 00:07:31.730
Don't use microwave popcorn.
152
00:07:34.379 --> 00:07:35.810
And I have to say, I don't.
153
00:07:35.680 --> 00:07:39.060
Know if it's been reformulated recently, but that was one
154
00:07:39.079 --> 00:07:40.639
of the original things that it was in.
155
00:07:41.319 --> 00:07:44.279
I'm sticking by what I said earlier.
156
00:07:46.699 --> 00:07:51.100
I mean, honestly, as an environmental reporter, a lot of
157
00:07:51.160 --> 00:07:56.899
things horrify me. I would say, actually, my reporting on
158
00:07:56.939 --> 00:07:59.759
plastics maybe left me with more of a, you know,
159
00:07:59.839 --> 00:08:00.860
changed my habits.
160
00:08:01.000 --> 00:08:03.199
So, like, I don't use single-use plastic.
161
00:08:03.220 --> 00:08:03.459
Okay.
162
00:08:04.189 --> 00:08:05.110
You cannot, yeah.
163
00:08:05.170 --> 00:08:07.100
Yeah, yeah.
164
00:08:09.819 --> 00:08:14.259
And my question is flawed to you because I always
165
00:08:14.319 --> 00:08:16.850
find in capitalism, the onus goes on us.
166
00:08:17.189 --> 00:08:17.350
Yeah.
167
00:08:17.529 --> 00:08:17.769
Right?
168
00:08:17.889 --> 00:08:20.170
Like, hey, Sharon, why are you using that plastic bottle?
169
00:08:20.189 --> 00:08:22.750
And it's like, well, I assume what's on the shelf
170
00:08:22.810 --> 00:08:23.689
is safe for me.
171
00:08:23.970 --> 00:08:24.129
Yeah.
172
00:08:24.290 --> 00:08:27.990
And that's not a safe assumption. And does our government
173
00:08:28.069 --> 00:08:28.829
step in on this?
174
00:08:28.990 --> 00:08:30.470
Where are they on this?
175
00:08:30.490 --> 00:08:34.450
Well, yeah, there are a lot of government failures here
176
00:08:34.610 --> 00:08:35.250
in this story.
177
00:08:35.460 --> 00:08:37.940
One is that when.
178
00:08:40.230 --> 00:08:43.389
The 3M ended up giving in studies that they had
179
00:08:43.429 --> 00:08:46.870
done in 1975, 1980, they finally gave them all to
180
00:08:46.889 --> 00:08:51.110
the EPA in the late 90s and 2000. So that's two,
181
00:08:51.269 --> 00:08:51.929
two and a half.
182
00:08:51.820 --> 00:08:53.480
Decades after they did them.
183
00:08:53.529 --> 00:08:55.899
You're supposed to hand this, give it in immediately if
184
00:08:55.919 --> 00:08:58.679
you see that there's evidence of real harm. So they
185
00:08:58.700 --> 00:09:03.580
were fined one and a half million dollars. And what
186
00:09:03.600 --> 00:09:04.379
they made on.
187
00:09:04.320 --> 00:09:06.019
That single account. I make that a week.
188
00:09:08.230 --> 00:09:11.100
But in the year that they phased out the chemical,
189
00:09:11.120 --> 00:09:12.620
they made $ 300 million.
190
00:09:12.639 --> 00:09:14.820
So it makes no sense.
191
00:09:14.879 --> 00:09:18.289
So we have to make it actually, there have to
192
00:09:18.330 --> 00:09:21.330
be consequences for companies that do this kind of thing.
193
00:09:21.450 --> 00:09:23.019
Well, you mentioned the EPA, and there was a.
194
00:09:24.659 --> 00:09:28.009
There was a new, I forget, guideline that they've set
195
00:09:28.049 --> 00:09:31.610
up recently. This has to do with forever chemicals. And
196
00:09:31.649 --> 00:09:35.029
we're using, in the article, you used the term PFAS, right?
197
00:09:35.490 --> 00:09:36.700
But that can mean a lot of different.
198
00:09:37.080 --> 00:09:40.600
Well, PFAS is the class of compounds. And the one
199
00:09:40.659 --> 00:09:45.480
chemical that Chris, who was talking about, was discovering was PFOS.
200
00:09:45.840 --> 00:09:49.889
That's one chemical in this class that's called PFAS. The class,
201
00:09:50.230 --> 00:09:55.779
there are thousands. So PFOS is not made anymore, but
202
00:09:55.820 --> 00:09:59.149
it's still in the drinking water. And EPA recently said
203
00:09:59.210 --> 00:10:01.820
drinking water limits for PFOS and PFOA.
204
00:10:02.360 --> 00:10:02.879
Fabulous.
205
00:10:02.940 --> 00:10:03.159
Great.
206
00:10:03.299 --> 00:10:03.559
Great.
207
00:10:03.860 --> 00:10:04.379
Very great.
208
00:10:04.779 --> 00:10:08.799
The only problem is, one, they're no longer made, but
209
00:10:09.080 --> 00:10:11.960
there are thousands of chemicals in this class, and we've
210
00:10:12.000 --> 00:10:13.679
only gotten a couple.
211
00:10:14.940 --> 00:10:16.639
And it's in New York City, drinking water. I mean,
212
00:10:16.659 --> 00:10:17.899
it's in everyone's drinking water.
213
00:10:18.240 --> 00:10:18.480
Yeah.
214
00:10:19.610 --> 00:10:23.960
And now the challenge is local cities are going to
215
00:10:23.980 --> 00:10:26.539
have to find a way to pay for filtering this out.
216
00:10:26.860 --> 00:10:27.740
Right, right.
217
00:10:27.860 --> 00:10:29.980
And there is just a big suit, a big settlement
218
00:10:30.019 --> 00:10:33.360
with 3M where they're going to pay $ 12.
219
00:10:32.240 --> 00:10:35.370
5 billion. And you think, oh, that's a lot of money.
220
00:10:35.389 --> 00:10:36.429
And it's not when.
221
00:10:36.289 --> 00:10:40.149
You have to actually remove these chemicals from water everywhere.
222
00:10:40.169 --> 00:10:46.399
Right. Environmental crime, that's a new term that I recently heard,
223
00:10:46.500 --> 00:10:48.299
and when I read your piece, I said, this is
224
00:10:48.340 --> 00:10:53.730
environmental crime. 3M has committed assault on us. Maybe murder,
225
00:10:53.809 --> 00:10:58.110
depending on the classification. Has anyone at 3M, is anybody
226
00:10:58.149 --> 00:10:58.509
in trouble?
227
00:10:58.889 --> 00:10:59.549
No. No.
228
00:10:59.750 --> 00:11:00.809
Not in a criminal way.
229
00:11:00.820 --> 00:11:02.399
Sweet, love this story, you know?
230
00:11:02.419 --> 00:11:03.779
It's just.
231
00:11:03.820 --> 00:11:04.059
Yeah.
232
00:11:05.159 --> 00:11:07.779
Yeah, not in a criminal way, but I like the
233
00:11:07.820 --> 00:11:08.559
way you put that.
234
00:11:08.620 --> 00:11:10.320
It is a crime, right?
235
00:11:10.440 --> 00:11:13.340
And I mean, part of the reason I think it's
236
00:11:13.379 --> 00:11:18.889
a crime is because we weren't given any choice in
237
00:11:18.899 --> 00:11:19.690
the matter, right?
238
00:11:19.730 --> 00:11:20.649
So nobody said, in.
239
00:11:21.549 --> 00:11:26.740
Exchange for this beautiful stain-free couch, we're gonna put a
240
00:11:26.759 --> 00:11:29.679
toxic chemical in your body and leave it there forever.
241
00:11:30.039 --> 00:11:30.870
It wasn't like that.
242
00:11:30.909 --> 00:11:33.230
It was here's this product and we know this thing
243
00:11:33.269 --> 00:11:34.049
we're not telling you.
244
00:11:34.110 --> 00:11:36.990
So it's like bodily trespass, really.
245
00:11:37.090 --> 00:11:41.879
I mean, these chemicals are in infants when they're born,
246
00:11:42.259 --> 00:11:42.899
before they're born.
247
00:11:43.730 --> 00:11:47.830
One of the saddest and scariest parts was when, in
248
00:11:47.850 --> 00:11:49.710
the article you talk about, and this is gonna be
249
00:11:49.750 --> 00:11:53.960
really sad, but how women actually finally showed that they
250
00:11:54.000 --> 00:11:56.799
had less forever chemicals in their body, but that was
251
00:11:56.879 --> 00:11:58.600
after they gave birth, because they passed it on to
252
00:11:58.620 --> 00:11:59.250
their child.
253
00:11:59.639 --> 00:11:59.850
Yeah.
254
00:12:00.039 --> 00:12:00.379
Right.
255
00:12:00.500 --> 00:12:05.009
So this is this is a problem. What can you
256
00:12:05.049 --> 00:12:08.529
leave us with? Everybody here is now newly aware. Should
257
00:12:08.549 --> 00:12:11.230
we call our Congress people? Should we stop buying plastic?
258
00:12:11.250 --> 00:12:11.629
Should we?
259
00:12:11.769 --> 00:12:14.230
Well, I mean, here's something here's something really focused.
260
00:12:14.289 --> 00:12:14.450
Great.
261
00:12:14.470 --> 00:12:16.450
I could do like the entire audience.
262
00:12:16.470 --> 00:12:20.830
I mean, so one of the crazy things is that PFAS.
263
00:12:21.440 --> 00:12:24.429
are still being, new ones, are still being introduced. So
264
00:12:24.509 --> 00:12:26.809
we still have thousands that are being used, but they're
265
00:12:26.830 --> 00:12:28.289
still introducing new ones.
266
00:12:28.710 --> 00:12:29.909
That is, like, that.
267
00:12:29.789 --> 00:12:32.190
Seems bananas to me, and that seems like.
268
00:12:32.009 --> 00:12:35.009
A very focused point that we could, you know, do
269
00:12:35.070 --> 00:12:35.549
something about.
270
00:12:35.769 --> 00:12:35.980
Yeah.
271
00:12:36.320 --> 00:12:38.360
Thank you very much for writing this article. Thank you
272
00:12:38.379 --> 00:12:40.059
for coming on The Daily Show and talking with us.
273
00:12:40.200 --> 00:12:42.299
You Make Me Sick is available online at The New
274
00:12:42.340 --> 00:12:43.360
Yorker and ProPublica.
275
00:12:43.399 --> 00:12:54.840
Sharon Lerner. Welcome back to The Daily Show.
276
00:12:54.940 --> 00:12:58.299
Now, now.
277
00:12:58.379 --> 00:13:03.330
My guest tonight, in an incredibly prescient booking by our
278
00:13:03.389 --> 00:13:05.470
talent people, is a psychotherapist.
279
00:13:06.110 --> 00:13:09.240
Hmm, fancy that.
280
00:13:10.049 --> 00:13:14.080
Best-selling author of Maybe You Should Talk to Someone. And
281
00:13:14.100 --> 00:13:16.899
dear therapist columnist for The Atlantic, please welcome to the program,
282
00:13:17.159 --> 00:13:17.840
Lori Gottlieb.
283
00:13:26.179 --> 00:13:26.620
Please, on the stage.
284
00:13:36.909 --> 00:13:38.669
Doctor, you're probably wondering why I've.
285
00:13:38.549 --> 00:13:39.269
Called you here tonight.
286
00:13:39.730 --> 00:13:40.129
Yes.
287
00:13:40.220 --> 00:13:42.820
Well, my therapist clearly turned off his phone, so.
288
00:13:43.080 --> 00:13:43.919
I'm sure.
289
00:13:44.139 --> 00:13:47.779
Now, are you expecting, as a therapist, on occasions like this,
290
00:13:47.799 --> 00:13:50.610
they always say, you know, the Super Bowl, people get
291
00:13:50.669 --> 00:13:52.669
so angry and they're rooting for their teams and there's
292
00:13:52.690 --> 00:13:55.289
a huge uptick in arguments and violence and all kinds
293
00:13:55.309 --> 00:13:58.710
of other things. Do you expect something similar for an
294
00:13:58.750 --> 00:13:59.360
event like this?
295
00:14:00.159 --> 00:14:01.799
Well, I think that a lot of people are going
296
00:14:01.820 --> 00:14:03.379
to be having arguments. I don't know that it's going
297
00:14:03.399 --> 00:14:05.960
to be domestic violence, but I think there's definitely going
298
00:14:06.000 --> 00:14:11.039
to be a lot of arguments happening with friends, families, workplaces,
299
00:14:11.299 --> 00:14:11.649
all of it.
300
00:14:12.480 --> 00:14:16.159
And you think because this is a time when the
301
00:14:16.210 --> 00:14:18.809
country is really focused on this and there's really no
302
00:14:18.850 --> 00:14:21.570
way to escape it, and so whatever schisms are there
303
00:14:21.769 --> 00:14:23.230
are going to be exacerbated?
304
00:14:24.240 --> 00:14:26.340
I think they are, and also just because we're so polarized.
305
00:14:26.700 --> 00:14:28.259
And I think that people don't know how to have
306
00:14:28.320 --> 00:14:31.539
conversations about the issues. It doesn't even become about the
307
00:14:31.580 --> 00:14:33.139
issues anymore, as we just saw.
308
00:14:33.659 --> 00:14:34.620
But we are siloed.
309
00:14:34.940 --> 00:14:38.629
Isn't the siloing of the nation keep us from having
310
00:14:38.649 --> 00:14:41.769
to have those conversations? Because you don't really run into
311
00:14:41.809 --> 00:14:45.070
those people that you disagree with too much, except on Thanksgiving.
312
00:14:48.049 --> 00:14:49.809
Well, I think you run into them on social media.
313
00:14:50.299 --> 00:14:51.600
And I think that that's where a lot of this
314
00:14:51.679 --> 00:14:54.700
is happening. And then people get very upset by what
315
00:14:54.720 --> 00:14:56.980
they're seeing on social media. And I can understand when
316
00:14:57.019 --> 00:14:59.539
we look at the rates of anxiety and depression. You know,
317
00:14:59.580 --> 00:15:02.250
we say in therapy, before diagnosing someone with depression, make
318
00:15:02.279 --> 00:15:06.370
sure they aren't surrounded by assholes, right? So, I'm not
319
00:15:06.389 --> 00:15:07.769
gonna name who those assholes might be.
320
00:15:07.789 --> 00:15:08.850
Wait, is that really a thing?
321
00:15:08.889 --> 00:15:11.350
Like, I have depression, and you're like, well.
322
00:15:12.149 --> 00:15:14.629
Well, sometimes it's like, I understand. Look at who drove
323
00:15:14.669 --> 00:15:15.090
you here.
324
00:15:15.110 --> 00:15:15.190
Yeah.
325
00:15:16.259 --> 00:15:18.299
Look at who sent you here, because often the people
326
00:15:18.330 --> 00:15:20.490
who come to therapy are the people who are coming
327
00:15:20.509 --> 00:15:22.509
to therapy because the people who should be in therapy
328
00:15:22.769 --> 00:15:23.909
are not coming to therapy.
329
00:15:25.269 --> 00:15:30.330
That just blew my mind. So people are coming because
330
00:15:30.809 --> 00:15:33.100
they feel they don't have an outlet for their frustrations,
331
00:15:33.149 --> 00:15:36.659
and the only outlet they might have, social media, is toxic.
332
00:15:37.600 --> 00:15:39.799
Well, I think that what you see on social media, again,
333
00:15:39.919 --> 00:15:43.700
is a lot of this sort of name-calling, and again,
334
00:15:43.740 --> 00:15:45.580
there's not a lot of nuance, there's not a lot
335
00:15:45.600 --> 00:15:48.840
of complexity, it's a lot of just people fighting. It
336
00:15:48.860 --> 00:15:53.019
was like that golf exchange on the debate. It's those
337
00:15:53.080 --> 00:15:55.940
kinds of things where people are talking about completely irrelevant things,
338
00:15:56.360 --> 00:15:57.559
or they're just uninformed.
339
00:15:57.679 --> 00:15:59.259
And I think that people don't know.
340
00:15:59.279 --> 00:16:00.519
Uninformed and irrelevant?
341
00:16:01.049 --> 00:16:07.519
A presidential debate. How do you deal with There is
342
00:16:07.559 --> 00:16:13.610
an existential fear to this. I mean, for social media
343
00:16:13.649 --> 00:16:17.210
to keep people engaged, for news organizations to keep people watching,
344
00:16:17.529 --> 00:16:20.990
they have to ramp up the urgency and the existential
345
00:16:21.509 --> 00:16:25.629
nature of the crisis. So you're sort of torn between
346
00:16:25.669 --> 00:16:31.820
these two impulses. One is to not participate, which would
347
00:16:31.840 --> 00:16:36.600
be advocating civic responsibility. But the other would be to
348
00:16:36.940 --> 00:16:40.350
bathe yourself in this existential crisis.
349
00:16:40.419 --> 00:16:42.450
What choice do you have?
350
00:16:43.009 --> 00:16:45.129
Well, we do have a choice. So look at anxiety.
351
00:16:45.169 --> 00:16:47.690
There's productive anxiety and unproductive anxiety.
352
00:16:47.710 --> 00:16:48.450
What?
353
00:16:49.480 --> 00:16:50.830
Well, think about it.
354
00:16:51.200 --> 00:16:54.779
If you didn't have anxiety, you wouldn't be able to
355
00:16:54.820 --> 00:16:57.100
be safe. That's why we have anxiety. It was like,
356
00:16:57.279 --> 00:17:00.480
there's a bear. You better have anxiety. Unproductive anxiety is,
357
00:17:00.679 --> 00:17:03.679
I'm just going to stand here. Productive anxiety is, I'm
358
00:17:03.720 --> 00:17:05.119
going to do something about this.
359
00:17:05.299 --> 00:17:08.349
See, that's so weird because my anxiety has never saved
360
00:17:08.380 --> 00:17:12.990
me from bears, but it often convinces me I'm not lovable.
361
00:17:16.289 --> 00:17:16.670
So how.
362
00:17:21.859 --> 00:17:23.299
I shared too much.
363
00:17:23.480 --> 00:17:27.640
How do you separate? I didn't want to watch the
364
00:17:27.660 --> 00:17:29.460
debates tonight, but I do work once a week now,
365
00:17:29.500 --> 00:17:33.319
so I have to. Because it's toxic to me.
366
00:17:33.400 --> 00:17:33.960
I know that.
367
00:17:34.019 --> 00:17:37.250
I have to participate. But how does that anxiety of
368
00:17:37.329 --> 00:17:40.750
watching it, how is that a relic of something.
369
00:17:40.509 --> 00:17:41.269
That's good for me?
370
00:17:42.109 --> 00:17:43.849
It's good for you because then you can take action.
371
00:17:43.890 --> 00:17:45.309
By the way, I hope you're taking action on the
372
00:17:45.329 --> 00:17:47.309
unlovable thing. I hope you're getting some help with that.
373
00:17:48.230 --> 00:17:49.599
Little thing called mushrooms, baby.
374
00:17:51.029 --> 00:17:52.299
Microdose away.
375
00:17:54.259 --> 00:17:56.720
But it's helpful because you say, okay, there are two
376
00:17:56.759 --> 00:17:58.420
ways you can respond to this. You can say, I'm
377
00:17:58.440 --> 00:18:01.150
gonna put my head in the sand and not engage,
378
00:18:01.190 --> 00:18:03.470
which is, I hope, not the option that people here
379
00:18:03.490 --> 00:18:07.130
are taking. And you can also say, oh, I'm just
380
00:18:07.170 --> 00:18:10.250
spinning in anxiety, I'm doom scrolling, I'm just getting all
381
00:18:10.309 --> 00:18:13.990
worked up. That's not helpful, that's unproductive anxiety. And then
382
00:18:14.029 --> 00:18:16.589
there's productive anxiety where you say, what can I do? Well,
383
00:18:16.869 --> 00:18:19.970
you can get involved in a campaign, you can volunteer,
384
00:18:20.059 --> 00:18:23.420
you can please vote. You can get the people around
385
00:18:23.460 --> 00:18:25.339
you to vote. There are things that you can do.
386
00:18:25.359 --> 00:18:27.220
The thing that you want to do is you want
387
00:18:27.240 --> 00:18:30.019
to say, what can I control here? And that's where
388
00:18:30.039 --> 00:18:31.700
you take your anxiety and you say, it's going to
389
00:18:31.819 --> 00:18:33.779
motivate me to do something productive.
390
00:18:34.160 --> 00:18:37.640
Does sitting in your underwear screaming at the TV count
391
00:18:37.660 --> 00:18:38.200
as action?
392
00:18:38.220 --> 00:18:38.759
No.
393
00:18:44.029 --> 00:18:45.549
Doc, you're losing me here.
394
00:18:46.670 --> 00:18:51.789
Have you seen an effect of this on relationships, on marriages,
395
00:18:51.990 --> 00:18:57.690
on families? Is this separating people at a much deeper,
396
00:18:57.759 --> 00:19:01.019
more emotional level than what we're understanding?
397
00:19:01.299 --> 00:19:02.519
Yes, absolutely.
398
00:19:03.460 --> 00:19:06.220
You know, I when I see couples in therapy, often
399
00:19:06.259 --> 00:19:09.269
when they come in, the person, you know, you say
400
00:19:09.410 --> 00:19:11.690
what's going on and the person wants something to change.
401
00:19:11.730 --> 00:19:13.650
But what they want to change is the other person,
402
00:19:13.710 --> 00:19:14.829
the person sitting right there.
403
00:19:14.950 --> 00:19:15.230
Sure.
404
00:19:15.809 --> 00:19:17.829
They don't think I want to change myself or I
405
00:19:17.869 --> 00:19:20.119
have a role in this. And I see that in
406
00:19:20.200 --> 00:19:24.180
what happens around these political conversations is that people don't say, oh,
407
00:19:24.400 --> 00:19:28.029
maybe I am not being curious about why they think
408
00:19:28.069 --> 00:19:29.950
what they think or I'm not really getting to the
409
00:19:29.970 --> 00:19:31.990
bottom of it and I'm just, you know, we're just
410
00:19:32.029 --> 00:19:33.490
yelling at each other about this.
411
00:19:33.730 --> 00:19:37.849
Are you seeing this in married couples where politics has
412
00:19:37.930 --> 00:19:41.109
driven a wedge to them that they can't overcome?
413
00:19:41.130 --> 00:19:42.230
Oh, absolutely.
414
00:19:42.730 --> 00:19:46.059
How do you traverse a political conversation with a couple?
415
00:19:46.299 --> 00:19:46.440
Yeah.
416
00:19:46.740 --> 00:19:49.950
Well, there's this great phrase in therapy. It's saying, I wonder.
417
00:19:50.680 --> 00:19:52.480
So it starts with i wonder i got it i
418
00:19:52.539 --> 00:19:54.740
wonder you know it's kind of like you know i
419
00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:58.119
wonder if instead of taking another drink maybe you should
420
00:19:58.140 --> 00:20:00.920
take a walk when you're feeling sad right um as.
421
00:20:00.920 --> 00:20:03.119
Opposed to unfortunately it's a live show we're out of
422
00:20:03.160 --> 00:20:04.920
time i always say i use that all the time
423
00:20:05.019 --> 00:20:09.170
i wonder why you're such an asshole That usually works.
424
00:20:09.470 --> 00:20:10.170
Check out Lori's book.
425
00:20:10.210 --> 00:20:11.140
Maybe you should talk to someone.
426
00:20:11.339 --> 00:20:16.680
We're calling in the Atlantic. I'm sorry we have to rush.
427
00:20:16.720 --> 00:20:17.259
Lori Gottlieb.
428
00:20:18.420 --> 00:20:21.180
Explore more shows from the Daily Show podcast universe by
429
00:20:21.220 --> 00:20:24.680
searching The Daily Show, wherever you get your podcasts.
430
00:20:25.019 --> 00:20:26.700
Watch The Daily Show weeknights at 11.
431
00:20:26.690 --> 00:20:30.529
10 Central on Comedy Central, and stream full episodes anytime
432
00:20:30.609 --> 00:20:31.380
on Paramount +.
433
00:20:36.799 --> 00:20:38.009
Paramount Podcasts.
