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I'm Travis Smiley. This is the third and final hour
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of today's program. In this third and final hour, two
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conversations on the B-side. Love the elements there, Miles, earth, wind,
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and fire. On the back side, our fourth and final
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conversation with relationship expert Zoe Williams, who has joined us
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in the last half hour of our program all week long,
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taking us inside his new book, which helps us unpack
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the relationship patterns our childhood installed. We'll talk to Zoe
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Williams one final time. in the last 30 minutes of
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today's program. We commence this hour in dialogue with the
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Democratic nominee for governor in the Sunshine State of Florida,
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David Jolly, facing off against a staunch Trump ally, the
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black Republican Byron Donalds. David Jolly, good to have you on, sir.
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How are you?
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I'm doing great. It's great to be with you, Tavis.
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I appreciate it. Man, it's good to hear your voice.
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We're just a few days away. Let me start by
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asking how you're feeling, how you're feeling. And before I
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do that, let me just frame this right quick for
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our audience. I'm watching this raise very closely for all
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the obvious reasons, as are many others. And I've had
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the chance to talk to pretty much everybody just in
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this one week. Abdul Alsaid was on this week. Had
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Scott Colom on yesterday. I've talked to everybody during this cycle.
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And for that, we are grateful that people choose this
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platform to come on and grateful for you choosing this platform,
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David Jolly. Thank you again. But I've been watching these races,
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and this race, your race, is as tight as any
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race in the country. So tell me how you're feeling,
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number one, and why is this race so tight?
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Listen, in politics, you can have momentum or money. It's
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great to have both. But if you've got to choose one,
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I'd rather have the momentum.
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And that's what we've got.
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I think this race is a pure toss-up. And I
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would say I think we get a nudge on Tuesday night.
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I feel very good about it. But here's why. Look,
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I believe we have built a strong campaign focused on housing,
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health care, education, and no data centers. The economic crisis
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in people's lives is generally around housing, health care, and education.
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And now we're wrestling with this issue of data center encroachment.
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But that's our platform. Why is it possible in the
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state of Florida for a Democratic candidate to be competitive?
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It's for this reason, Tavis. All the time I spend
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on TV, you like to think, oh, I'm a really
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smart analyst. I really know what's going on. The truth
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is voters always tell us what they want. And in
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this moment, voters across the country are saying, regardless of
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party registration, we're a nation that's broken down. If we
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just hate each other a little more, somehow life will
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get better. And we're rejecting those politics. And so, look,
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in Florida, only 29% of registered voters are Democrats. And
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we are building a new coalition rooted on some basic
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values about the economy. And I would argue those values
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are rooted in the Democratic tradition, right? Economic opportunity for everybody.
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But they don't belong to only one party. And we've
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been able to translate that to independent Republicans in a
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moment of change.
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Yep. Your phone is wobbling on me a little bit.
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I hope you can still hear me. I want to
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make sure the audience gets a chance to hear you.
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Let me press forward. If not, we'll reboot this, but
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I hope you don't have to do that. I hear
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everything you're saying. Help me still understand how it is
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possible in Florida that we could see literally a shift
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from Ron DeSantis to David Jolly. I mean, that sounds
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crazy to me, man.
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Well, consider the real economic conditions. Half of our state
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doesn't have enough savings the last two weeks. More people
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going without health care than ever before. We've abandoned public education.
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Homeowners are losing their homes because the cost of insurance
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and renters can't live in the community in which they work.
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And in those economic conditions, we're being told, don't worry
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about the economy. What we really have to do is
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marginalize communities based on the color of your skin, where
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you're born, who you love or who you worship. If
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we just keep hating each other a little bit more,
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your life will improve. And so enough voters are saying, look,
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I just need a governor that's going to focus on
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improving the economic opportunities in my life and stop with
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all the vitriol and divisiveness. You don't always get this cycle, right?
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We'll get outspent by over $ 100 million, but voters are
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smart enough in this moment to know we need change.
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Tell me how and why data centers have become such
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a political tool. topic. And again, my read of this
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suggests that whether you're Republican or Democrat, everybody hates these
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data centers. Tell me why that is.
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You know, it's fascinating. Part of it is not in
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my backyard, right? And let's just be honest, that's part
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of it. But there are concerns around the environmental degradation.
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There's concerns around public health, the devaluation of real estate.
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But you know what it really is? It's become a
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physical metaphor for the power inequality, right? Voters in communities saying,
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I don't want these. And yet our politicians who are
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funded by big tech, big data and big utilities are saying, hey, voters,
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I don't care that you don't want them. I've been
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funded with 10, 20, 30 million dollars to come into
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your community and build them. So you just sit back
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down on your couch and we're going to build a
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data center. So it. The public policy reasons are there
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to justify a moratorium. I would issue a moratorium in
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Florida on day one. But actually what's at play is
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the growing anxiety about a power inequality and then mix
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that with the economic uncertainty of AI, the future of work,
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the future of wages, safety and privacy concerns for our kids,
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our children. And you just have maybe 75% of the
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state of Florida say, we don't want data centers. Yep.
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You're talking to a largely progressive audience listening to you
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right now, David Jolly, across the country, literally from California
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to the Carolinas, a largely progressive audience, liberal audience, a
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lot of African-Americans listening to you right now, to be sure.
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And we all know Byron Donalds. When we come forward,
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I want to ask how Donald Trump is leaning in
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for his friend Byron Donalds, how he's putting his thumb
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on the scale in this race in Florida and what
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you expect that to result in or not. Come Tuesday,
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I also want to ask David Jolly, when we come forward,
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what the breaking point was for him. He decided to
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switch from being a Republican years ago to becoming a Democrat.
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And is that a breaking point? More and more Republicans
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will reach this election cycle. More conversation, I'm glad about it,
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with David Jolly, the Democratic nominee for governor in Florida,
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when we come forward on Tavis Smiley. In conversation with
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the Democratic nominee for governor in the sunshine state of Florida,
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David Jolly, pleased to have him on. I was just
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asking a moment ago, in case you've just turned this on,
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how we could even possibly imagine going from Ron DeSantis
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in Florida to David Jolly. I'd welcome that, to be sure.
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But it just seems it speaks to, as David Jolly
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was saying a moment ago, the way things have changed
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in Florida and the way the eyes of Floridians have
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been opened, courtesy of so many things that have happened
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over the last eight years. But he is running, as
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you know, against Byron Donalds, a black conservative Republican. friend
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of Donald Trump. So in what ways is Donald Trump
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leaning into this race, Mr. Jolly?
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Well, he's been on the ground once for Byron. He's
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coming back tomorrow. And, you know, I'm running for governor,
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focused on housing, health care and education. I don't have
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to litigate the president. But I do think we get
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to litigate Byron Donald's defense of Donald Trump's economy. Someone
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who he's given an A on the economy. He's called
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him the best president in history. He called him daddy.
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He supports everything he wants. He does. Look, he supports
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the Iran war that's driving up your gas prices, tariffs
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that are driving up your food prices. And he still
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defends the president every day. And so people are seeing
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the disconnect. We're watching Donald Trump build ballrooms and crypto
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companies for his buddies. and tell us that we could
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come to Mar-a-Lago, but we probably can't afford a $ 5, 000 hamburger,
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and he doesn't care that gas prices are too high.
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That is Donald Trump's message on the ground in Florida.
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Byron's got to defend that.
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I said earlier, I wanted to ask you, and I
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will now, what the breaking point was for you some
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years ago when you decided to switch from being a
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Republican to being a Democrat. I'm fascinated by that back story,
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and I'm sure the audience will be. But more to
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the point, I'm wondering whether or not that breaking point
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will show up more and more for Republicans in this
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election cycle.
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It is. You know, I'll get to the disaffected Republican,
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but my story is I was kind of a Bush
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41 Republican, an old-school Republican that I still think today
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the economic growth is good, the private sector should lead. But,
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you know, back then we used to accept there was
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a responsibility for government to help out, invest in housing,
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health care, education, clean air, clean water. And I ended
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up fighting the Tea Party and lost. I fought the
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Freedom Caucus and lost. I fought Trumpism and lost and realized,
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you know, I was 0-3, and maybe it's time for
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me to leave. But, you know, the values of fighting
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for an economy for everyone has still kind of always
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been my principle. But I also grew as I served
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in Congress. You know, I moved on issues like gun
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violence prevention, on reproductive freedom, on health care. You know,
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I now want to dramatically expand direct access to primary care.
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I've grown as I've served. And I think one of
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the strengths of this campaign is once I realized, look,
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the problem in politics aren't people who change. The problem
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are people who won't change. And we might as well
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just be honest about that, that the whole point of
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politics is to win hearts and minds, to grow a coalition. Now,
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how does that impact this race? You know, I always
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knew there would be the disaffected Republican like me that
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would be available to me in running for governor. But, Tavis,
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something that's happened in the last six to eight weeks,
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there's now a different type of disaffected Republican, and that's
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disaffected MAGA. You know, some disaffected MAGA who will tell you,
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as one Republican recently told me, they thought they were
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part of a movement, and they realize they've just been used.
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That they're watching the president take care of himself while
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they're falling further behind. The abandonment of any promises that
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the president had made And so those are two different
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disaffected Republicans, right? One's an old school Republican who's always
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been available to us, but the disaffected MAGA, that's kind
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of bizarre to have a Trump jolly voter. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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That's what I was saying earlier. This race cracks me
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up in a variety of ways, just thinking that we're
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out with DeSantis and in with Jolly. You said two things,
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David Jolly. I want to go back to you real
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quick because I'm fascinated by this and I really, really
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want you to unpack this for me. I love your transparency,
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your openness about the fact that you grew while you
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were serving in office. I love that, that you grew.
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And my mind went to something that I said many times,
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and I believe with every fiber of my being, and
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it is simply this, that change is inevitable, but growth
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is optional. Change is inevitable, but growth is optional. We,
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as human beings, have to choose to grow And I
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find that so many in public office just refuse to grow.
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They would rather remain entrenched. It's part of what leads
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to gerrymandering. Don't get me started on gerrymandering. But I'm
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more fascinated by how open and willing you had to
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be to realize that certain positions were wrong, to be
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open to not just change but growing. Again, I'm fascinated
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by this. Say a bit more about that for me.
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Yeah, look, and maybe I'm a little Pollyanna, right? My
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wife says, in a world of Donald Trump, be Ted Lasso.
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I actually, when I had the opportunity to serve in Congress,
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I took it seriously. You know, I called it the
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sleep well at night test. And understand, I was a
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Republican that Republicans were upset with. And I spent six
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or seven years in that because I just thought we
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should practice politics by thinking about big problems that need
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big solutions and not worry so much about the left-right spectrum,
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and certainly not a party. But, you know, I was
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a Republican representing a community that twice voted for President Obama.
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And I'm curious.
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We're going to stand by one second and let Miles
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talk to Mr. Jolly and try to get this. I
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hate this. The conversation is so good and so rich,
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and I don't want it to not be heard or understood.
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It's too important. So let's just try to figure this
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out for a second. But again, while we get this
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line straightened out, I am fascinated again by his willingness
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to be open to change, to be open to growth.
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And I meant what I said earlier, that change is inevitable.
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Everything changes. That's the Bernard Agnes song, Quincy Jones song.
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Everything must change. But we have to choose to grow.
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That means being Socratic. Put another way, being willing to
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look at yourself, right? I talk about all the time
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the difference in the hardware and the software. the hardware
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is easy to change. What's on the outside is easy
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to change. That's software. Changing who you are on the inside,
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that requires a commitment. That requires some work. That requires
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going inward. And so many of us sort of refuse
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to do that, particularly in our politics. People just get
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entrenched in their positions. They are so wed to their
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ideology that they look right past good ideas. and I'm
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always open to good ideas, but the ideology is, I think,
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what in so many ways is damaging our country. And
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so to have a guy who was once a Republican
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who sees the light and decides to change his position
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on a variety of issues, who ends up then being
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the governor, the Democratic nominee for governor, rather, in Florida,
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Freudian slip there. I hope he pulls this off. It's
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fascinating to me, though. And then to be running against
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Byron Donalds, This black conservative Republican that we all know
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is really, really interesting. But for this race to be
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as tight as it is, I mentioned again to David
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Jolly at the top of our conversation that this race
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is tighter than any race, I think, for governor in
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the country right now. And I'm looking at polls regularly
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in this race, and it really is a toss up
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right now. He used the word toss up and he's right.
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It's a toss up. It really is too close to
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call right now. So let's go back to David Jolly.
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I think I can hear him now. David Jolly, can
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you hear me now? Can you hear me now?
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I can hear you great. You got me, Tavis?
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I got you. I got you, man. You were going
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so strong, I didn't want to cut you off. Finish
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the point you were making, though.
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Well, look, the point was that I think the problem
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in politics aren't people who change. It's people who won't change.
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We've been through the most disruptive decade in politics in
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our lifetime, maybe. And if it hasn't caused you to
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rethink your politics, then... then maybe you should. And as
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I said, I don't, I don't mean this to be
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a swipe at Byron, but I get this question a lot.
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And I, I finally said, look, I don't think the
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problem in this cycle is that I used to be
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a Republican. The problem is that Byron still is one.
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Wow. Wow.
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Well, think about it. Think about the politics of Donald Trump,
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what it means for equity. Yeah. Yeah.
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I'm trying. I'm trying.
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Yeah.
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I hate to. I know he's busy on the campaign
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trail and I hate to lose him in the middle
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of a conversation like this. But that phone line is
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just not holding up. And I will feel badly about
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it because when you're on the campaign trail, we have
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to tap you as best we can. And we have
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caught him obviously in some area on his cell phone
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where the service is not holding up. And I hate to,
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you know, have to disrupt the conversation with him. I
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wanted to ask him though, um, I mentioned moments ago,
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he said two things that I found really fascinating. One
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was about how he was open to growth. Um, and so, um,
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that I, I, I appreciate that, but also was fascinated
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by his, um, raising of the issue about the proper
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role of government. And that is something that has been, uh,
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on my mind for, for quite some time now, like
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for years, I rest with these things all the time
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about the proper role of government. And it's not just,
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you know, um, What government ought to be doing and
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not ought to be doing is how we get at
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that conversation. And ultimately, that's what our politics ought to
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be about. What is the proper role of government? And moreover,
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who are we? Who are we really? Not who we
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profess to be, but who do we want to be
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as a country? And that has a lot to do, again,
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with whatever each of us thinks the proper role of
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government is. There's a book. that I read many years
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ago and I come back to it time and time
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again by the late, great Mario Cuomo, three-term governor of
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New York, father of Andrew Cuomo, father of Chris Cuomo.
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Mario Cuomo and I spent some good time together over
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the years and had a chance to interview him a
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number of times and spend some time with him and
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his family in New York. Chris and I go back
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a long way. So because of Chris, I sort of
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got introduced to his family. But he wrote a book,
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Mario Cuomo did some years ago, called Reason to Believe.
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If you can find it, it's a book worth reading
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even all these years later. But what Mario Cuomo was
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wrestling with in that particular book is what the proper
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role of government is. And I'm always fascinated by the
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fact that every one of us believes that government ought
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to do certain things. Government has to show up in
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certain ways. But the debate is what that looks like, right?
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and these rabid Republicans have one way of processing what
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government ought to look like, what government ought to do,
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what government ought not to do, and Democrats, progressives have
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another view of the proper role of government, and that's
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what this debate is about right now. We played a
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clip from James Carver earlier today going in on progressives
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and going in on DSA members. Well, that debate fundamentally
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is about the role, the proper role of government, that
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progressives side with, the proper role of government that DSA
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members side with. And James has a different view. So
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you can make it about politics, and to some extent
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it is about politics. But more importantly and more accurately,
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this debate that we are engaged in right now is
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about what the proper role of government ought to be
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and what we have seen day in and day out
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for the last couple of years of Trump 2.0, is
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that Trump and Republicans and even the Supreme Court, let's
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just call it what it is, have a very different
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view of the proper role of government. And what we
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get a chance to decide next Tuesday is what the
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answer to that question ought to be. And so that
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answer will be determined in part by how well these
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progressives do. It will be determined in part by whether
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or not these DSA members can win. It will, in fact,
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be determined. by whether Abdul Saeed wins in Michigan and
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whether Jolly wins in Florida and whether Keisha Lance Bottoms
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wins in Georgia and these eight African-Americans running for governor
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of various states. All of these races will, I think,
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start to tell us a bit more about what we
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think in this moment the proper role of government should be.
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And that matters because it will give us some indication
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as to what we think we ought to be doing
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come 2028. the impact of the results of these midterms
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will give us some sense of the kinds of candidates
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who have a real shot or no shot at all
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when it comes to 2028. So there's a lot of data,
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a lot of downloading, a lot of postmortem to come,
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of course, after next Tuesday. And I say after next
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Tuesday because we know we ain't going to know everything
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Tuesday night. But in the days to come, these victories
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and these losses will give us a sense of of
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where this country is headed. And I think most of
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us believe that the country's headed in the wrong direction
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right now. But this question, again, of what the proper
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role of government ought to be is one that we
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cannot escape, one that we cannot get away from. That's
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why you hear me rather use the term all the
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time that this is an expansionist in democracy. We ain't
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figured this out yet. We ain't figured out the proper
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role of government yet. It is an experiment in democracy,
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and we're leaning toward, we're tilting toward oligarchy and plutocracy.
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You heard our guest, Patrick Moran, have asked me say
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earlier in today's show that we are now not just
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the richest nation in the world, but the richest nation
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in the history of the world. And that is hard
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to square with all the suffering, the invisible suffering on
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the part of so many fellow citizens. And so we'll
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see what happens next Tuesday and continue this dialogue about
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what the proper role of government is. I just hate
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that I didn't get a chance to ask David Jolly
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about that because he started down that path. He used
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that phrase and I wanted to unpack it, but maybe
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after he wins this thing, wink, wink, nod, nod, after
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he hopefully wins the governorship in Florida, We'll get him
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back on on a phone line that works a little better.
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He won't be in the middle of an alligator swamp
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somewhere campaigning for votes. And we'll be able to hear
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him more clearly. But I thank him for at least
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calling in and for putting us on his docket. Again,
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I hope you appreciate that so many of these candidates
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literally all across the country have chosen this platform as
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one that they wanted to engage. And it says something
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about you, the audience, you, the listener. And for that,
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I'm grateful. More of Tabby Smiley when we come forward.
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I'm Travis Smiley. This is the third and final hour
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of today's program. In this third and final hour, two
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conversations on the B-side. Love the elements there, Miles, earth, wind,
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00:00:10.919 --> 00:00:14.419
and fire. On the back side, our fourth and final
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00:00:14.480 --> 00:00:17.760
conversation with relationship expert Zoe Williams, who has joined us
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in the last half hour of our program all week long,
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taking us inside his new book, which helps us unpack
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the relationship patterns our childhood installed. We'll talk to Zoe
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Williams one final time. in the last 30 minutes of
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today's program. We commence this hour in dialogue with the
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Democratic nominee for governor in the Sunshine State of Florida,
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David Jolly, facing off against a staunch Trump ally, the
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black Republican Byron Donalds. David Jolly, good to have you on, sir.
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How are you?
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I'm doing great. It's great to be with you, Tavis.
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I appreciate it. Man, it's good to hear your voice.
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We're just a few days away. Let me start by
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asking how you're feeling, how you're feeling. And before I
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do that, let me just frame this right quick for
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our audience. I'm watching this raise very closely for all
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the obvious reasons, as are many others. And I've had
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the chance to talk to pretty much everybody just in
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this one week. Abdul Alsaid was on this week. Had
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Scott Colom on yesterday. I've talked to everybody during this cycle.
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And for that, we are grateful that people choose this
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platform to come on and grateful for you choosing this platform,
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David Jolly. Thank you again. But I've been watching these races,
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and this race, your race, is as tight as any
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race in the country. So tell me how you're feeling,
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number one, and why is this race so tight?
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Listen, in politics, you can have momentum or money. It's
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great to have both. But if you've got to choose one,
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I'd rather have the momentum.
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And that's what we've got.
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I think this race is a pure toss-up. And I
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would say I think we get a nudge on Tuesday night.
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I feel very good about it. But here's why. Look,
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I believe we have built a strong campaign focused on housing,
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health care, education, and no data centers. The economic crisis
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in people's lives is generally around housing, health care, and education.
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And now we're wrestling with this issue of data center encroachment.
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But that's our platform. Why is it possible in the
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state of Florida for a Democratic candidate to be competitive?
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It's for this reason, Tavis. All the time I spend
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on TV, you like to think, oh, I'm a really
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smart analyst. I really know what's going on. The truth
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is voters always tell us what they want. And in
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this moment, voters across the country are saying, regardless of
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party registration, we're a nation that's broken down. If we
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just hate each other a little more, somehow life will
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get better. And we're rejecting those politics. And so, look,
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in Florida, only 29% of registered voters are Democrats. And
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we are building a new coalition rooted on some basic
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values about the economy. And I would argue those values
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are rooted in the Democratic tradition, right? Economic opportunity for everybody.
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But they don't belong to only one party. And we've
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been able to translate that to independent Republicans in a
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moment of change.
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Yep. Your phone is wobbling on me a little bit.
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I hope you can still hear me. I want to
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make sure the audience gets a chance to hear you.
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Let me press forward. If not, we'll reboot this, but
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I hope you don't have to do that. I hear
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everything you're saying. Help me still understand how it is
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possible in Florida that we could see literally a shift
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from Ron DeSantis to David Jolly. I mean, that sounds
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crazy to me, man.
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Well, consider the real economic conditions. Half of our state
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doesn't have enough savings the last two weeks. More people
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going without health care than ever before. We've abandoned public education.
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Homeowners are losing their homes because the cost of insurance
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and renters can't live in the community in which they work.
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And in those economic conditions, we're being told, don't worry
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about the economy. What we really have to do is
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marginalize communities based on the color of your skin, where
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you're born, who you love or who you worship. If
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we just keep hating each other a little bit more,
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your life will improve. And so enough voters are saying, look,
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I just need a governor that's going to focus on
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improving the economic opportunities in my life and stop with
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all the vitriol and divisiveness. You don't always get this cycle, right?
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We'll get outspent by over $ 100 million, but voters are
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smart enough in this moment to know we need change.
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Tell me how and why data centers have become such
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a political tool. topic. And again, my read of this
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suggests that whether you're Republican or Democrat, everybody hates these
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data centers. Tell me why that is.
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You know, it's fascinating. Part of it is not in
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my backyard, right? And let's just be honest, that's part
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of it. But there are concerns around the environmental degradation.
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There's concerns around public health, the devaluation of real estate.
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But you know what it really is? It's become a
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physical metaphor for the power inequality, right? Voters in communities saying,
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I don't want these. And yet our politicians who are
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funded by big tech, big data and big utilities are saying, hey, voters,
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I don't care that you don't want them. I've been
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funded with 10, 20, 30 million dollars to come into
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your community and build them. So you just sit back
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down on your couch and we're going to build a
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data center. So it. The public policy reasons are there
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to justify a moratorium. I would issue a moratorium in
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Florida on day one. But actually what's at play is
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the growing anxiety about a power inequality and then mix
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that with the economic uncertainty of AI, the future of work,
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the future of wages, safety and privacy concerns for our kids,
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our children. And you just have maybe 75% of the
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state of Florida say, we don't want data centers. Yep.
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You're talking to a largely progressive audience listening to you
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right now, David Jolly, across the country, literally from California
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to the Carolinas, a largely progressive audience, liberal audience, a
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lot of African-Americans listening to you right now, to be sure.
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And we all know Byron Donalds. When we come forward,
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I want to ask how Donald Trump is leaning in
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for his friend Byron Donalds, how he's putting his thumb
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on the scale in this race in Florida and what
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you expect that to result in or not. Come Tuesday,
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I also want to ask David Jolly, when we come forward,
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what the breaking point was for him. He decided to
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switch from being a Republican years ago to becoming a Democrat.
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And is that a breaking point? More and more Republicans
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will reach this election cycle. More conversation, I'm glad about it,
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with David Jolly, the Democratic nominee for governor in Florida,
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when we come forward on Tavis Smiley. In conversation with
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the Democratic nominee for governor in the sunshine state of Florida,
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David Jolly, pleased to have him on. I was just
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asking a moment ago, in case you've just turned this on,
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how we could even possibly imagine going from Ron DeSantis
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in Florida to David Jolly. I'd welcome that, to be sure.
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But it just seems it speaks to, as David Jolly
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was saying a moment ago, the way things have changed
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in Florida and the way the eyes of Floridians have
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been opened, courtesy of so many things that have happened
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over the last eight years. But he is running, as
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you know, against Byron Donalds, a black conservative Republican. friend
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of Donald Trump. So in what ways is Donald Trump
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leaning into this race, Mr. Jolly?
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Well, he's been on the ground once for Byron. He's
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coming back tomorrow. And, you know, I'm running for governor,
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focused on housing, health care and education. I don't have
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to litigate the president. But I do think we get
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to litigate Byron Donald's defense of Donald Trump's economy. Someone
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who he's given an A on the economy. He's called
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him the best president in history. He called him daddy.
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He supports everything he wants. He does. Look, he supports
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the Iran war that's driving up your gas prices, tariffs
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that are driving up your food prices. And he still
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defends the president every day. And so people are seeing
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the disconnect. We're watching Donald Trump build ballrooms and crypto
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companies for his buddies. and tell us that we could
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come to Mar-a-Lago, but we probably can't afford a $ 5, 000 hamburger,
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and he doesn't care that gas prices are too high.
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That is Donald Trump's message on the ground in Florida.
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Byron's got to defend that.
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I said earlier, I wanted to ask you, and I
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will now, what the breaking point was for you some
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years ago when you decided to switch from being a
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Republican to being a Democrat. I'm fascinated by that back story,
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and I'm sure the audience will be. But more to
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the point, I'm wondering whether or not that breaking point
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will show up more and more for Republicans in this
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election cycle.
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It is. You know, I'll get to the disaffected Republican,
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but my story is I was kind of a Bush
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41 Republican, an old-school Republican that I still think today
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the economic growth is good, the private sector should lead. But,
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you know, back then we used to accept there was
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a responsibility for government to help out, invest in housing,
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health care, education, clean air, clean water. And I ended
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up fighting the Tea Party and lost. I fought the
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Freedom Caucus and lost. I fought Trumpism and lost and realized,
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you know, I was 0-3, and maybe it's time for
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me to leave. But, you know, the values of fighting
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for an economy for everyone has still kind of always
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been my principle. But I also grew as I served
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in Congress. You know, I moved on issues like gun
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violence prevention, on reproductive freedom, on health care. You know,
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I now want to dramatically expand direct access to primary care.
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I've grown as I've served. And I think one of
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the strengths of this campaign is once I realized, look,
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the problem in politics aren't people who change. The problem
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are people who won't change. And we might as well
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just be honest about that, that the whole point of
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politics is to win hearts and minds, to grow a coalition. Now,
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how does that impact this race? You know, I always
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knew there would be the disaffected Republican like me that
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would be available to me in running for governor. But, Tavis,
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something that's happened in the last six to eight weeks,
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there's now a different type of disaffected Republican, and that's
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disaffected MAGA. You know, some disaffected MAGA who will tell you,
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as one Republican recently told me, they thought they were
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part of a movement, and they realize they've just been used.
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That they're watching the president take care of himself while
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they're falling further behind. The abandonment of any promises that
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the president had made And so those are two different
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disaffected Republicans, right? One's an old school Republican who's always
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been available to us, but the disaffected MAGA, that's kind
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of bizarre to have a Trump jolly voter. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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That's what I was saying earlier. This race cracks me
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up in a variety of ways, just thinking that we're
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out with DeSantis and in with Jolly. You said two things,
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David Jolly. I want to go back to you real
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quick because I'm fascinated by this and I really, really
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want you to unpack this for me. I love your transparency,
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your openness about the fact that you grew while you
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were serving in office. I love that, that you grew.
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And my mind went to something that I said many times,
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and I believe with every fiber of my being, and
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it is simply this, that change is inevitable, but growth
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is optional. Change is inevitable, but growth is optional. We,
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as human beings, have to choose to grow And I
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find that so many in public office just refuse to grow.
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They would rather remain entrenched. It's part of what leads
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to gerrymandering. Don't get me started on gerrymandering. But I'm
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more fascinated by how open and willing you had to
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be to realize that certain positions were wrong, to be
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open to not just change but growing. Again, I'm fascinated
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by this. Say a bit more about that for me.
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Yeah, look, and maybe I'm a little Pollyanna, right? My
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wife says, in a world of Donald Trump, be Ted Lasso.
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I actually, when I had the opportunity to serve in Congress,
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I took it seriously. You know, I called it the
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sleep well at night test. And understand, I was a
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Republican that Republicans were upset with. And I spent six
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or seven years in that because I just thought we
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should practice politics by thinking about big problems that need
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big solutions and not worry so much about the left-right spectrum,
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and certainly not a party. But, you know, I was
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a Republican representing a community that twice voted for President Obama.
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And I'm curious.
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We're going to stand by one second and let Miles
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talk to Mr. Jolly and try to get this. I
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hate this. The conversation is so good and so rich,
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and I don't want it to not be heard or understood.
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It's too important. So let's just try to figure this
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out for a second. But again, while we get this
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line straightened out, I am fascinated again by his willingness
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to be open to change, to be open to growth.
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And I meant what I said earlier, that change is inevitable.
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Everything changes. That's the Bernard Agnes song, Quincy Jones song.
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Everything must change. But we have to choose to grow.
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That means being Socratic. Put another way, being willing to
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look at yourself, right? I talk about all the time
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the difference in the hardware and the software. the hardware
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is easy to change. What's on the outside is easy
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to change. That's software. Changing who you are on the inside,
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that requires a commitment. That requires some work. That requires
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going inward. And so many of us sort of refuse
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to do that, particularly in our politics. People just get
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entrenched in their positions. They are so wed to their
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ideology that they look right past good ideas. and I'm
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always open to good ideas, but the ideology is, I think,
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what in so many ways is damaging our country. And
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so to have a guy who was once a Republican
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who sees the light and decides to change his position
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on a variety of issues, who ends up then being
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the governor, the Democratic nominee for governor, rather, in Florida,
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Freudian slip there. I hope he pulls this off. It's
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fascinating to me, though. And then to be running against
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Byron Donalds, This black conservative Republican that we all know
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is really, really interesting. But for this race to be
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as tight as it is, I mentioned again to David
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Jolly at the top of our conversation that this race
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is tighter than any race, I think, for governor in
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the country right now. And I'm looking at polls regularly
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in this race, and it really is a toss up
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right now. He used the word toss up and he's right.
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It's a toss up. It really is too close to
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call right now. So let's go back to David Jolly.
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I think I can hear him now. David Jolly, can
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you hear me now? Can you hear me now?
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I can hear you great. You got me, Tavis?
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I got you. I got you, man. You were going
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so strong, I didn't want to cut you off. Finish
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the point you were making, though.
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Well, look, the point was that I think the problem
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in politics aren't people who change. It's people who won't change.
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We've been through the most disruptive decade in politics in
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our lifetime, maybe. And if it hasn't caused you to
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rethink your politics, then... then maybe you should. And as
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I said, I don't, I don't mean this to be
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a swipe at Byron, but I get this question a lot.
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And I, I finally said, look, I don't think the
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problem in this cycle is that I used to be
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a Republican. The problem is that Byron still is one.
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Wow. Wow.
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Well, think about it. Think about the politics of Donald Trump,
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what it means for equity. Yeah. Yeah.
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I'm trying. I'm trying.
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Yeah.
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I hate to. I know he's busy on the campaign
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trail and I hate to lose him in the middle
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of a conversation like this. But that phone line is
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just not holding up. And I will feel badly about
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it because when you're on the campaign trail, we have
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to tap you as best we can. And we have
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caught him obviously in some area on his cell phone
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where the service is not holding up. And I hate to,
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you know, have to disrupt the conversation with him. I
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wanted to ask him though, um, I mentioned moments ago,
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he said two things that I found really fascinating. One
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was about how he was open to growth. Um, and so, um,
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that I, I, I appreciate that, but also was fascinated
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by his, um, raising of the issue about the proper
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role of government. And that is something that has been, uh,
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on my mind for, for quite some time now, like
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for years, I rest with these things all the time
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about the proper role of government. And it's not just,
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you know, um, What government ought to be doing and
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not ought to be doing is how we get at
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that conversation. And ultimately, that's what our politics ought to
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be about. What is the proper role of government? And moreover,
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who are we? Who are we really? Not who we
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profess to be, but who do we want to be
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as a country? And that has a lot to do, again,
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with whatever each of us thinks the proper role of
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government is. There's a book. that I read many years
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ago and I come back to it time and time
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again by the late, great Mario Cuomo, three-term governor of
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New York, father of Andrew Cuomo, father of Chris Cuomo.
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Mario Cuomo and I spent some good time together over
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the years and had a chance to interview him a
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number of times and spend some time with him and
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his family in New York. Chris and I go back
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a long way. So because of Chris, I sort of
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got introduced to his family. But he wrote a book,
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Mario Cuomo did some years ago, called Reason to Believe.
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If you can find it, it's a book worth reading
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even all these years later. But what Mario Cuomo was
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wrestling with in that particular book is what the proper
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role of government is. And I'm always fascinated by the
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fact that every one of us believes that government ought
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to do certain things. Government has to show up in
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certain ways. But the debate is what that looks like, right?
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and these rabid Republicans have one way of processing what
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government ought to look like, what government ought to do,
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what government ought not to do, and Democrats, progressives have
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another view of the proper role of government, and that's
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what this debate is about right now. We played a
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clip from James Carver earlier today going in on progressives
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and going in on DSA members. Well, that debate fundamentally
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is about the role, the proper role of government, that
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progressives side with, the proper role of government that DSA
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members side with. And James has a different view. So
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you can make it about politics, and to some extent
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it is about politics. But more importantly and more accurately,
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this debate that we are engaged in right now is
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about what the proper role of government ought to be
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and what we have seen day in and day out
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for the last couple of years of Trump 2.0, is
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that Trump and Republicans and even the Supreme Court, let's
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just call it what it is, have a very different
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view of the proper role of government. And what we
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get a chance to decide next Tuesday is what the
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answer to that question ought to be. And so that
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answer will be determined in part by how well these
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progressives do. It will be determined in part by whether
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or not these DSA members can win. It will, in fact,
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be determined. by whether Abdul Saeed wins in Michigan and
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whether Jolly wins in Florida and whether Keisha Lance Bottoms
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wins in Georgia and these eight African-Americans running for governor
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of various states. All of these races will, I think,
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start to tell us a bit more about what we
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think in this moment the proper role of government should be.
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And that matters because it will give us some indication
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as to what we think we ought to be doing
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come 2028. the impact of the results of these midterms
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will give us some sense of the kinds of candidates
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who have a real shot or no shot at all
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when it comes to 2028. So there's a lot of data,
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a lot of downloading, a lot of postmortem to come,
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of course, after next Tuesday. And I say after next
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Tuesday because we know we ain't going to know everything
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Tuesday night. But in the days to come, these victories
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and these losses will give us a sense of of
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where this country is headed. And I think most of
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us believe that the country's headed in the wrong direction
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right now. But this question, again, of what the proper
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role of government ought to be is one that we
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cannot escape, one that we cannot get away from. That's
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why you hear me rather use the term all the
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time that this is an expansionist in democracy. We ain't
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figured this out yet. We ain't figured out the proper
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role of government yet. It is an experiment in democracy,
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and we're leaning toward, we're tilting toward oligarchy and plutocracy.
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You heard our guest, Patrick Moran, have asked me say
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earlier in today's show that we are now not just
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the richest nation in the world, but the richest nation
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in the history of the world. And that is hard
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to square with all the suffering, the invisible suffering on
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the part of so many fellow citizens. And so we'll
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see what happens next Tuesday and continue this dialogue about
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what the proper role of government is. I just hate
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that I didn't get a chance to ask David Jolly
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about that because he started down that path. He used
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that phrase and I wanted to unpack it, but maybe
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after he wins this thing, wink, wink, nod, nod, after
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he hopefully wins the governorship in Florida, We'll get him
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back on on a phone line that works a little better.
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He won't be in the middle of an alligator swamp
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somewhere campaigning for votes. And we'll be able to hear
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him more clearly. But I thank him for at least
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calling in and for putting us on his docket. Again,
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I hope you appreciate that so many of these candidates
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literally all across the country have chosen this platform as
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one that they wanted to engage. And it says something
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about you, the audience, you, the listener. And for that,
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I'm grateful. More of Tabby Smiley when we come forward.
