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Speaker 1: From your favorite source for Chicago White Sox talk, delivering news, interviews, analysis and more. This is the Socks Machine Podcast with your hosts Jim Margolis and Josh Nelson.
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Speaker 2: Thanks Rob, and welcome to the Socks Machine Podcast. I'm your host Josh Nelson, and it's Thursday, December sixteenth, twenty twenty one as we bring you a new podcast episode. We are fifteen days into the Major League Baseball lockout and boy do I miss the off season? Are we any closer to the lockout ending? While a new report from the Athletics suggests we are not. We'll discuss the latest lockout news and how early voting is going for the Baseball Hall of Fame later in the show, but first we remember Roland Heemund, who died on Monday, December thirteenth at the age of ninety two. Heemund was the Chicago White Sox journal manager from nineteen seventy to nineteen eighty five, before he moved into an advisory role with the White Sox to make way for Hal Carrolson's disaster one year tenure at GM. Heemon would later join the Baltimore Orioles as their next journal manager from the nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety five season before serving as senior executive vice president for the Arizona Diamondbacks when they were introduced to the league in nineteen ninety six. He returned to the White Sox as an executive advisor, winning a World Series ring with the team in two thousand and five, as he served that role from two thousand and one to two thousand and seven. After Heemun's passing, there was widespread praise from many in baseball on how much he meant to them. Well known for going out of his way and helping many fresh faces get their start in baseball. Joining me to remember Hemund is the ergy editor of Soxmachine dot Com. It's Jim Marylus and Jim Hello. In his short period, fans had lost two key members of the nineteen eighty three White Sox team, Lamar Hoyt passed away in late November, and now he Munnd. He wrote a great recap of his impact on the White Sox and maybe none bigger than helping keep the franchise relevant on the South Side, especially in nineteen seventy two.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, when you were going through his history as track record, basically he seemed time and time again to be entrusted with teams at their most fragile state. He got his big break when it came to leading a department as the scouting director for the Los Angeles Angels and their expansion year. You mentioned that he took over the Diamondbacks when they.
00:02:47
Speaker 4: Were in their first years.
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Speaker 3: When he joined the Orioles after the White Sox, they were trying to find themselves after Earl Weaver, and he kind of guided them back to prominence during the Camden Yards renaissance and their strong run of teams in the nineties. Yeah, that's basically just seemed like whenever a team needed somebody with you know, who wasn't intimidated by a big job and envision and like a keen scouting in a good eye for talent of all kinds, like even building a front office. It seems like teams found him and he responded well. And probably his biggest job is the most important job, or jobs I should say, were with the White Sox, both in nineteen seventy when he drew a fewer than five hundred thousand fans and there was talk about.
00:03:32
Speaker 4: Them being relocated to Milwaukee.
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Speaker 3: They actually played some games in County Stadium, a test of that market and trying to figure out if they would be.
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Speaker 4: The team that moved there. It ended up being the Seattle Pilots who moved to Milwaukee.
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Speaker 3: That was a very fragile safe for the White Sox because John Allen's ownership was thoroughly undercapitalized and they could have been moved.
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Speaker 4: And it was human who took over, and he had the foresight to make a.
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Speaker 3: Very daring trade to get Dick Allen for Tommy John. Like Allen was, you know, one of baseball's best hitters, also had the reputation for being very controversial, very mercurial. I think we know now decades later how he earned that reputation by having clashes with the press that did not understand him or did not respect him. It did not try to understand him. And he just said, like, well, you know, Tommy John's a good pitcher in all but we've been built.
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Speaker 4: Around pitching in defense.
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Speaker 3: You know, for the entire existence of the White Sox franchise. We need a difference maker, we need excitement. So he got Dick Allen. He Bill Melton came along. They had guys who could actually lead the league in homers for once in their lives, and you know, they none of those teams won the division, but they were finally exciting.
00:04:47
Speaker 4: They were able to draw over a million.
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Speaker 3: Fans and basically rescued that ownership until Bill Veck came along. And then that was another task to try to with Vex blessing as free agencies starting as this wild West opens of unprecedented player movement, to just dive in and take advantage of that and try to figure out who they can get for you know that that isn't too expensive, or who can they acquire that might be expensive shortly, but they might get one good year out of them. And that's how they got the seventy seven hit men. You know, not a good defensive team, but just loaded up on hitters. You know, Richie Zisken and Oscar Gamble the chief rentals of the team. But they just went all in to try to figure out how to generate excitements. And that's one of the most beloved teams in White Sox history because of their impact and just keeping the White Sox fixed in Chicago until you know, ultimately Bill Veck sold off to Jerry Reinsdorf's group and then they finally had an ownership that that where money wasn't the problem. You know, eventually the stadium was the problem, and there was another movement scare of there, but it was never for lack of funds the way it was with the Allen ownerships and the Veck ownership. So he had some very tough tasks when he took over, and when adjusted for the degree of difficulty, like he may have never won a World Series directly as general manager, but some of the jobs he had, and just the stakes of the jobs that he had and having to do them well enough to keep a franchise in the city, I think is really it's really hard to appreciate now in an era where teams really don't move, like back in the sixties and seventies when expansion and and you know, you had the A's going back and forth between cities, and he had just you know, the Seattle flopping and then going to Milwaukee, just had a whole bunch of possibilities for franchises to move that wasn't that was a threat and because of Roland Heeman, the White Sox survived that threat and they're still in Chicago today.
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Speaker 2: In football, many talk about the coaching tree of former assistance of a particular head coach like Andy Reid the Kansas City Chiefs. He's had so many of his assistants become head coaches for other teams. Heemn helped so many in baseball. I don't know, Jim, if one kid create a visual of it. But for older White Sox fans, especially for that nineteen eighty three team, Heeman was responsible for bringing in Tony L. Russa into the fold and even had Dave Dombrowski on his staff, and both of those guys have won a few World Series reigns. Yeah, Jim Leland too, I forget about Jim Leland.
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Speaker 4: Yeah.
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Speaker 2: And then when he was in Baltimore, Doug Melvin was his farm director, And for those that live in the Milwaukee area, you might remember that name as he was the general manager for the Milwaukee Brewers for many years, helping turn around that franchise, especially with the draft picks of Ryan Brawn and Princefielder.
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Speaker 3: And Walt Chockety too and Kenny Williams. When he took over for Ron Schuler after the two thousand season, one of the first moves he made was bringing in heman as an advisor. Another testament to human's ability just to be the guy you want when things are getting started.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, a nice bounce spoard for ideas for Kenny Williams, who was never afraid to Wheeland deal, especially early on in his tenure as general manager. Granted, it's not a very long list compared to other franchises. The White Sox don't have a long list of general managers. But if you were to create an executive ranking list of past White Sox gms, considering as far as the situation, especially in the early seventies, and just how special and you know, how beloved as you mentioned that the nineteen seventy seven and nineteen eighty three White Sox teams were, is even close to the top or at the very top on that ranking list.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's you know, there's an urge bo Kenny Williams there because he actually won the World Series and he has a great case for it. But you know, as I mentioned, the degree of difficulty thing, and just the surviving and thriving for three owners because he went from Allen to Veck to Reinsdorf and being retained throughout even when Jerry Reinsdorf fired him after the or promo to him. Slash moved him out for you know, Hawk Harrelson and that. And there's a case of you know, hiring somebody who is the exact opposite of the guy who came before. You know, Heman was somebody who cherished relationships and was a builder, and somebody who just never forgot a name and was just just widely respected around the game and and patient and and just had a love for the game and people. And and Hawk Carrelson came around kind of a combustible personality and not afraid to get into fights and cause controversy. And I think we saw the you know, with Heman's track record versus Harrelson's the GM there's the the big picture winning out and just the you know, human's ability to play the long game. Ultimately, I think defines his track record his seventy year career in baseball front offices.
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Speaker 4: So yeah, he's he's up there.
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Speaker 3: I think, you know, you can look at other guys like Franklin and Ed Short and even Harry Grabner from you know, the nineteen tens, but human, I think just when it comes to not having the money and having a very delicate state of the White Sox front office. It's it's, uh, yeah, he's definitely either, if not one, then definitely two. But I think there's a strong case to make him number one.
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Speaker 4: And the thing that.
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Speaker 3: Kind of fascinates me is just how you know, he's a favorite of writers, even like for Saber, you know, the Society for American Baseball Research, Like he was a friend to Saber, you know, very very much resource for connecting and providing you first task hand accounts or hereous so you need to talk to get the story. Just a wonderful sounding board and kind of a switchboard too for just connecting people to.
00:10:38
Speaker 4: People when they needed to talk.
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Speaker 3: And just how widely available it was all the White Sox fans who said they had wonderful conversations with him throughout the years. And you know, I wonder, you know, if the era of the approachable GM is over, you know, or just I was thinking about that, just how much of an everyman he was and how you know, humble and and you know he didn't put on errors. He he wasn't somebody who made like, you know, six seven figures, you know, maybe made six to some points later on his career. But you know, he wasn't like a seven figure guy. He wasn't a celebrity, and so like he was just he talked to anybody and he was happy to connect anybody, and I just wanted it's hard to picture like a Rickon or theo Epstein or just the Brian Cashman, just these guys who will just talk to anybody, talk to fans, just you know, no errors about it, no you know, no VIP treatments. Just because the job has changed so much. I think there was a lot of room for him and in his position to try and fail.
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Speaker 4: I think part of.
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Speaker 3: It is, you know, with with you know, Rickhon when he makes a bad trade because of just the social media, just though the internet living forever everything, uh you know, just nothing dying, like he hears about it, he'll hear about it forever. But you know, in a case where the media was three four newspapers and maybe some radio, maybe some TV, but mostly just newspaper and fans, it was probably a lot easier to not feel like you were going to be pillar read. Perhaps uh maybe you just weren't high profile. For better or for worse, people didn't know you. When he did well, people didn't know you when he did poorly. You were just somebody who was not too far removed from you know, traveling on the country and scouting for you.
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Speaker 4: Know, thousands, you know, Mirre, thousands of dollars, you know.
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Speaker 3: So maybe that's the case where you know, just had he he was, uh, he broke in with the Boston Braves. So that's how far he dates back. And wow, how uh you know, just a scout for the Boston Braves in the nineteen fifties.
00:12:38
Speaker 4: They're not making much.
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Speaker 3: So perhaps his origins were such that he always maintained his ability to connect, no matter whether it was you know, high profile baseball executives or you know, college kids at the winter meetings or you know, seasonal employees in the ballpark. Just seemed like he had everybody's name.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, the topic that you brain up. Can can anyone just walk up to a JURM manager? Sure, if you're at the coffee shop, can you hold down a conversation and have small talk with with someone like riccon or any GM of any of the four major sports teams today? I don't know, Jim, that's a great question. I may lean to know. Even though there are times that Ricon comes off very personable during his press conferences. The vast majority of gms today are careful on what they say. So if you catch them in like that type of situation where it's unscripted, I don't know on how engaging they're gonna be. I don't know. I've never ran into a general manager in the public before. Yeah, so the next time I do, I'll try, I'll try small talk with them and I'll report back, well, I've.
00:13:57
Speaker 4: Talked to your recon at soas best.
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Speaker 3: I talked to him with the Saber Seminar in Boston, and that's the case. He was very chatty and talking to anybody who want to talk to him. But that's the case also where he's prepared to talk. You know, he's on a panel, he's right, you know, or in socks bests, he's on multiple panels. He's there to connect with season ticket holders.
00:14:12
Speaker 4: So that's his job.
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Speaker 3: But yeah, when you're hearing about it constantly and your kids are hearing about it constantly, I wonder if you're just there's more of a defense there.
00:14:18
Speaker 4: Whereas you know, when Roland Eman was working for.
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Speaker 3: Bill Veck, after Veck took over re took over the White Sox in the seventies where they go to the winter meetings instead of a folding table in the middle of room saying open for business. You know, it's a case where you know that that might come off as incredibly amateurish. Now if Rick Han and Kenny Williams did that in the middle of you know, the the Gaylord Oppery Land or you know, San Diego Convention Center is just propping down a card table and saying let's talk, like nobody woud take him seriously now, so I think everything's more polished and refined, and there's a lot more just people who can spread word. So yeah, perhaps it's a case where just you know, I'm sure he'd be perfectly nice, but comes to just uh, the willingness to connect the way heman did and just having he seemed like his guard was down. And maybe it was easier back then to just have your guard down because he just you didn't you weren't a celebrity the way gms are now.
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Speaker 2: That's a really good point. That's a really good point on that topic of going to a table and say that you're open for business. Didn't they make like six trades during those winter meetings something like that.
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Speaker 3: Yeah, often depending on how long this lockout goes, that's probably something to write about, just the various you know, rolling human trades and just figuring, you know, going through the archives and uh saying, but I remember going to the Hall of Fame library and saying just basically like a classified ad for the White Sox just saying that they're they're wheeling and dealing now, so give them a call.
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Speaker 2: Well, depending on how the lockout talks go, and we'll be talking about that next on the Sox Machine Podcast. Here, uh Rick, Connie, Kenny Williams may need to get a virtual table and let everyone know that they're open for business because I'm not quite sure and how much time they're going to have before the start of spring training, as we'll talk about that and how the early Hall of Fame voting trends are coming along as we are getting public ballots next on the Sox Machine Podcast. After a quick word from our sponsors, welcome back to the Sox Machine Podcast. While Roland Heemund has his legacy forever secure in baseball, there are some seeking immortality in the sport, earning the honor of becoming a Hall of Famer. Writers part of the Baseball Writers Association of America who have at least ten years of service get to vote, and early ballots are being tabulated in large thanks to Ryan Thibodeaux and his staff. As we record this episode, twenty six ballots have been made public and entered into Ryan Thibodeau's database that he makes public that you can see on Twitter or online, and as you the listener, get a chance to listen to this episode, I'm sure more ballots will become public. The estimated number of ballots for this voting year is three hundred and ninety two, which a player needs seventy five percent of the vote to make the Hall of Fame, so it's a race to two hundred and ninety four votes for these players. It's only six point six percent of the reported ballots and so we have a long way to go, but early trend suggests that we might not see anyone get above seventy five percent. Out of the twenty six ballots reported publicly, Barry Bonds and Roger Clements show up at eighty percent and newcomer David Ortiz is currently at seventy six percent. Again, we have a long way to go. But Mark Burley is only on one ballot so far and he needs five percent to stay alive on the ballot for next year. Jim, this is a loaded Hall of Fame ballot. When looking at the ballot, there are sixteen players who had a career War of fifty five or more, five players who had a career seventy plus War and three wood one hundred plus War players. So why am I worry that the writers are going to make the same mistake we've seen through the years and nobody gets elected just because.
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Speaker 3: The precedent of their are very public. Ongoing struggle with players who either took steroids and were busted or were you know, widely connected to them or traceable to them, or were suggested to have taken them or had suspicious careers. Just yeah, it's still a mess. I mean, this will be the last year that Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds are on the ballot to deal with it. You also have some miserable people like Kurchilling and Omer of Ascal, like just they seem to be you know, gaining entry or headway towards entry to Cooper's down before they both took turns for the worst to where they just became too toxic to maintain their support. So yeah, just it's right now, probably maybe the least fun Hall of Fame voting has ever been.
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Speaker 2: And out of the twenty six ballots, eleven of the twenty six have had the full ten player ballot. We've had two ballots with eight players, four with seven. Then you get you know, multiples for six, five and four players, and then there is the there is the ballots that have no players on them. So far, we have only had one ballot that showed up blank. And I know we have talked about Hall of Fame voting over the years. How do you feel about a voter who turns in a blank ballot?
00:19:52
Speaker 3: I don't care for it. I get it. It's I think.
00:19:57
Speaker 4: The older I get, you know, just I think it.
00:20:00
Speaker 3: At one point, everybody is a kind of a small Hall Hall of Fame person. You know, they at least do a lot of serious baseball fans when they're learning the game. They're learning like the inner circle players versus the you know, more outsider players versus the players who were you know, either weird voting cases or were ushered in through weird veteran committee high jinks of the nineteen sixties and seventies. You get a sense like, oh, these are the real Hall of famers. These are ones who shouldn't be there. We need more real Hall of famers. And I think the at least my case, and I've seen other people reflect this. The older get, the more ballplayers you see come across your radar, you understand better the people who say, like, I think Roger Marrier should be in the Hall of Fame because he's famous, or you know, I think that, you know, Dick Allen should be in Hall of Fame because I've never seen anybody hit the ball like him. You know, there are cases where you might say, like, you know, Roger Mayors had one good season. Outside of one good season, he's not quite there. But you know, Dick Allen, I think everybody's coming around to him. But just having these conversations and just realizing, like, what's the harm of having too many Hall of Famers, Like maybe the institution is cheapened a little bits, but who suffers, Like I don't even you know, I don't think the Hall of Fame suffers that much.
00:21:12
Speaker 4: I don't think the museum suffers.
00:21:13
Speaker 3: I mean, Cooperstown does great when more people come up to you know, visits over the course of the summer and see the plaques and go to the induction ceremony, so nobody's really harmed.
00:21:23
Speaker 4: You know.
00:21:23
Speaker 3: I think it's a it's an interesting intellectual exercise to try to rank the best players and try to maintain a small hall. But you know, the the more I see, and in the case of like Mark Burley, who might not be a Hall of Famer, but it'd be really cool if he were in, Like I think that's the way I put it is I get why he's not there, get why he's not getting supports, but you you could tell a really cool story with him involved. And and if he got in, like maybe you know I would say, like a non Socks fan me ten years ago go like, oh, that's that's bs the way that Jack Morris got in because he pitched a couple.
00:21:57
Speaker 4: Of good games and and and.
00:21:59
Speaker 3: The World Series, and uh, you know, it was a good quote to the media, like you know, you roll your eyes and say Jack Morris is not a Hall of Famer, but now that Jack Morris is in, like it doesn't matter. Like it's you know, a lot of people were happy that he was in a lot of Tigers fans and Twins fans were happy were in, Like fine.
00:22:16
Speaker 4: You know, that's that's good.
00:22:18
Speaker 3: So like I think when you think, you know, I think you when you when you're looking at a Hall of Fame ballots and you can't say that Roger Clemens is in the Hall of Famer because of steroids, and Barry Bonds is and and Sammy Sosa is in.
00:22:28
Speaker 4: Gary Sheffield isn't.
00:22:29
Speaker 3: And you can't vote for David Ortiz because he might have been, and Sammy Sosa because he might have been. And then you get down to like, Okay, Kurt Schilling you can't because he's a jerk, and yeah, and you can't, you know, And then you get to Scott Rolling. It's just like, well, he wasn't the perfect third baseman because he wasn't healthy. Otherwise he was, you know, a top seven third basement in baseball, but he wasn't perfect, so he's not like you just after a while, you just it seems like kind of a miserable outlook for a Hall of Fame voter to look.
00:22:56
Speaker 4: At a ballot and see nobody. So that's I think.
00:22:59
Speaker 3: Where I think it's too disconnected from who the museum ultimately serves, which is baseball fans. If you can't look at a ballt and say like nobody belongs here, Like when it comes to the steroid guys like you and I were baseball fans coming up during the steroid steroid era.
00:23:15
Speaker 4: My favorite player.
00:23:16
Speaker 3: Growing up is jose and Saco. You know, just he was like an action figure on a baseball field. He did incredible things.
00:23:23
Speaker 4: Like he he drew me to the game.
00:23:26
Speaker 3: I probably would not like baseball as much as I do because if jose and Sako weren't there at that time, because he was the one who kind of drew me into it. He was fun to imitate in the backyard. He was, you know, flashy, and you just like the way that nobody in the White Sox was like jose Ca and Saco. And that's why I was gravitated towards him first, and then you know, gravitated towards the White Sox later. And so when when I see the steroid go and even like Keinseco, like the when you know, going to Komiskey Park, Old Kimisky Park and hearing steroid chants and then you know, fifteen years later when he's on a ballot and Mark Guire's you know, going through you know, the ballot for the first time, and you know, he's having to testify and in front of Congress, and people are saying like, well.
00:24:08
Speaker 4: He's ruined the game.
00:24:09
Speaker 3: Just no, he didn't, because people in Komiski Park were chanting steroids at these guys in nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety that that seven and eight year old me remembers and people turn the other way, and in whole generations of baseball fans were became baseball fans because of these players, so to kind of shut them out of the Hall of Fame, especially guys who weren't you know, you can't directly connect to steroids. You can only do circumstantial evidence. Like that's I think when you rull those guys out and say like, nah, he hit six hundred homers, but yeah, I think he used whereas like somebody like Jim Tomey who was in the same timetable, but because he's a nice guy, he gets in just like That's that's where I think it just gets a little bit like I would say, if you can't look at a ballot and turn one in, you know, with the name crossed on, and just like just just abstain for a year, sit it out, and then return when there's somebody alike, versus turning into blank ballot.
00:25:01
Speaker 2: Well, this particular voter, I think recently only voted for Derek Jeter, and the previous year didn't vote for anyone else either. So it's this one particular writer that continues to do this. And when I look at the ballots that are coming in that are public, again a vast majority are not going to be public. But so I'm very thankful for the work that Ryan Thibodeau is doing because it does for those that do cast their ballot and they tweet about it or they put it in an article or other forms of social media. When they do make it public, that information is collected and we can track it along the way. And I'm with you, Jim. When I look at this ballot, I see, honestly, I see sixteen Hall of famers. So my opinion is, if you have a ten person ballot, I'm good whoever you pick out of those sixteen. If you pick ten of them any combination, I'm good with that. And it makes sense to me. Cool we're not gonna have an argument if you only pick five guys, I'm gonna ask you to go back to your ballot and do a little bit more homework. And maybe it's that conversation of well, I don't want to vote for anyone that use PDEs or use steroids, or possibly lied to the media when I'm glad you mentioned it, nobody complained about nineteen ninety eight. There are certain writers that certainly made themselves a career following and writing about Sammy Sosa and his run for the home run record in nineteen ninety eight and drew more eyeballs to their work that puts them in a position today to cast judgments on these players, whether or not they're Hall of Fame worthy. I just that's the one thing that I'm looking at these public ballots right now, is this trend. We need to see more ten person ballots, because if the trend goes reverse and we see many ballots that are less than half filled in five or fewer players are checked off, I'm really concerned, especially like for Mark Burley, but I'm concerned about Bonds and Clemens and Shilling and Sosa and the conversations that we had recently about Dick Allen, and everyone's like, Dick Callen is a Hall of Fame worthy player, he should be in. What are we doing well? In a decade or fifteen years from now, We're going to have these same exact conversations again with Bonds, Clemens, Shilling and Sosa asking ourselves what in the world was that everyone thinking a decade ago? And now you got the newcomers coming in, which I'm surprised so many of them. Of these ballots early on, the trends are well, I can't vote for Bonds and Clements, but I could vote for David Ortiz really, Okay, all right, so that that must be the line.
00:28:18
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I think like Ortiz and Sosa are both named in the same reports.
00:28:23
Speaker 4: Yes, and so I think, so, says the guy I correlate to Ortiz.
00:28:27
Speaker 3: Just support for one and not the other, because you know, Bonds and Clemens they have kind of a more thorough history and more documented history does But yeah, the thing, yeah, I guess I have in mind is that you know, when it comes to say like miserable human beings, like you know, I would say Kurt Schilling is one, you know, omer of a Scull has been accused of some pretty ghastly things active lawsuits, two different incidents.
00:28:51
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, like, the one thing I will say is like the Baseball of fame is.
00:28:56
Speaker 3: Like it's an honor, it's not a right, Like if you hit six hundred homer is like you don't necessarily guaranteed entry, like you you know, you should have some baseline for humanity, uh to get in or like if people want to withhold their vote because they might be like in Viscal's case, like a monster.
00:29:12
Speaker 4: Uh then uh, you know, I don't mind that.
00:29:14
Speaker 3: Like and and especially Shilling is going so far out of his way to turn off voters. He could have been in years ago if he just you know, was a decent person, like or even stayed quiet, yeah, or even just you know. And it's not as politics because like you know, Mariano Rivera shares his politics at least when it comes to voting. And Rivera was unanimous, uh you know, and Rivera is very like a public you conservative and very public supporter of Trump. And just like that's fine. He votes for who he votes for. It it's not but he's not like a toxic person the way.
00:29:46
Speaker 4: That Shilling is.
00:29:47
Speaker 3: And goes out as way to alienate and and and and foment hate against certain people. Just like if you just kept you know, kept it more to himself, like he'd be in already. So if you want to be like a jerk and turn voters and they don't get in, like I don't necessarily care about that, but I think I get more caught up in like say like a Scott Roland case or something like that, or Okay, you don't you don't give any quarter to steroid users. You don't give any quarter to people who are tied to steroids or you know kind of there they have a timeline that where you can draw circumstantial evidence to it. Okay, then like say Scott Roland, who's a top seven to third baseman and who had a very and this is all speculative, but because everything else is speculative, Like he had a natural career, He got older, he had to deal with injuries, got banged up, had troubles staying in the field, but ultimately was productive enough to be you know, one of the best who ever play his position, and he can't get headwayes like, well, what are you rewarding them? Like only the people who are age in such a way where they are incredible in their twenties, and you know, then they have to get older, but not suspiciously, so like they have to age in a certain way that fits a you know, timeline that basically avoids even just the most reflex of suspicion. Like that's where I just kind of, you know, throw out my hands and say, like I don't, I don't get it.
00:31:06
Speaker 4: A case like.
00:31:07
Speaker 3: Todd Helton, which is another you know, he's a case where just like they're still trying to figure out what course Field has to do. But like he was, you know, he's a big figure for one of you know, he and Larry Walker are the two central figures in the history of one of you know, Major leagues baseball teams.
00:31:26
Speaker 4: Like it's just the way mister you know Minimnosa got in.
00:31:29
Speaker 3: Is mister white Sox like Todd Helton, Like if he's the you know, most central figure in Rockies history, Like why isn't he in, you know, like why is he getting more support? So yeah, that's that's where I think I just get all kind of confused and tied up. Is just like if you if the bar is so high for players to get in, but also like you can't even you might have to have you steroids in order to clear it it. It doesn't serve anybody. And I think that's where I get irritated, is not along the best, but also not along the the people who might have been the best when you factor in all the people who might have been using like it's just no matter how how you like fold it and approach it, like there should be Hall of famers there somewhere.
00:32:10
Speaker 2: I agree that Scott Roland's a great case. Seventeen year career, seventy war for his career. Think about that, that's around four war for seventeen years. You know, we get we need we get excited, Jim what a White Sox player reaches for war in a season because they have had a really good season And Scott Roland turned out that type of performance for more than a decade like that. That's that's how I feel about the Hall of Fame is that when you look at the career war of these guys and you look at their peaks, and you can take a look at their values as well. But it's just amazing to me on how some of these names who were big players and big stars are still in the outside looking in, and I don't know what needs to change. You know, there are some that say, well, the way that we vote as writers needs to change. Maybe goes to yes no, and then it's the percentage of how many yeses did you get that advances you into the Hall of Fame. I also think the Associate the Association needs to get a lot younger. It really needs to get a lot younger. There are some baseball writers that are very jaded against the players on this ballot, and they're making their voices heard now in their disapproval. They didn't disapprove it that much back then when they were covering it, but now they're making their disapproval known. And our generation, when we're in our forties and fifties, gym has to fix everything in the Golden Era committee for these guys ten to fifteen years down the road. But yes, Scott Roland and you mentioned Todd Helton. Gary Sheffield I think is a Hall of Famer. He's got more than five hundred home runs in his career. And then, of course, you know I the homer pick Mark Burley, as you mentioned, that would be a fantastic story for him. To be in the Hall of Fame, the perfect game, the no hitter, being drunk and closing out a World Series game. We talked about as far as a previous podcast. You know, if Jim Cott made it to the Hall of Fame eventually, maybe that helps Mark Burley's case later down the road, because you know, one's going to be the next pitcher that has fourteen consecutive two hundred inning seasons. It would have to start next season because we don't really have a an active list today to match what Burley did. When it comes to Burley, how do you feel about his chances of staying on the ballot for next year, because again it is a five percent threshold.
00:34:46
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's trickier. I mean, like Joe Colly, he fell off Cally's.
00:34:50
Speaker 3: Ballot and which is irritating because Viscal is still on it.
00:34:53
Speaker 2: Are you serious? I did not see that.
00:34:55
Speaker 3: Really, I'm looking at I'm looking at the tracker now. Yeah, he says he would have voted for Burley. He did vote four ten players.
00:35:01
Speaker 4: Okay, so he max it out. But Burley is the first one off.
00:35:04
Speaker 2: But just like, how do you have this scale?
00:35:07
Speaker 3: Okay, whatever, but uh yeah, it's just that's the case where just you know, he needs every vote I think to stay on. I think I like his chances still, but he might be coming close, going from like eleven to six percent or something like that. I'm guessing his case will be. If he gets in, it'll be through a committee. Part of me like just likes having guys on the ballot for ten years because they get their stories told for ten years, they get kicked around, they get a nice post from Jay Jaffy at Fancrafts talking about their careers, and Joe Posnanski talks, mom, it's nice, like it's just nice way to remember. It's like a temporary Hall of Fame. And that's what I kind of like about the ballot itself. And that's why I don't mind, you know, the guy who's kind of kick around for ten years, even if they never quite gain momentum. I see a purpose there, even if it doesn't materialize anything. I think the only thing I get irritated about with Hall of Fame support is closers like Billy Wagner getting fifty percent.
00:35:53
Speaker 4: I don't care for it.
00:35:55
Speaker 2: He's not one of the sixteen that I mentioned that I think is Hall of Fame.
00:35:59
Speaker 3: Where Yeah, I think like the Craig Kimberl the experience in the White Sox where he just kept hearing future Hall of Famer over and over.
00:36:06
Speaker 4: Again, and one he didn't pitch like it.
00:36:08
Speaker 3: But even if he could, like, he couldn't have made a difference in the alds.
00:36:15
Speaker 4: Like he couldn't like just and when a closer is like damn.
00:36:18
Speaker 3: Just how many people could have been great closers that they weren't starters if they weren't very good starters coming up.
00:36:23
Speaker 4: Shot of the Hall of Fame?
00:36:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, again, Mariano Rivera, as you mentioned, he's the unicorn. I think there's little doubt that he is the greatest closer of all time. Should he have been the first unanimous voted in player? Probably not, because come on, there are far greater players that were voted to the Hall of Fame before Mariano Rivera that did not get unanimous selection. Ken Griffy Junior didn't get unanimous selection. What the hell is that about? Even Derek Jeter going going the a Key's Round, did he get unanimous selection?
00:36:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's like, yeah, Billy Wagner's throwing a nine hundred and.
00:36:57
Speaker 4: Three innings, I guess like in.
00:36:59
Speaker 3: His career, like Edwin Jackson threw a thousand more like who had the more impressive career?
00:37:04
Speaker 4: Right, Like whose job was harder?
00:37:05
Speaker 3: I think Edwin Jackson's job was harder, even though Billy Wagner might have been better his job. And like you know, if you put Edwin Jackson ninth inning, maybe he wouldn't have been as dominant. But just like it's so the bar is so low to be great, you just have to be The hard part is just staying healthy for long enough to accumulate like that four hundred save role.
00:37:23
Speaker 4: But otherwise, like just they're so replaceable or so they can they can be.
00:37:31
Speaker 3: Ruled out of a game or or kind of just circumstances can conspire against some not factor into the biggest games possible. And I just don't get the point of honoring the position that heavily.
00:37:43
Speaker 2: Maybe we just don't like relievers.
00:37:45
Speaker 3: Jim, Yeah, it's possible, but like I mean, like John Smoltz, like when he did is you know, going to closing after starting and then just like he kind of just showed like how good you know, very good starters could be in that.
00:38:00
Speaker 4: Situation.
00:38:00
Speaker 3: Like I don't know if he gets to the Hall of Fame if he doesn't have that three year run of like being an elite closer and then going back to the rotation being a very good starter again.
00:38:07
Speaker 4: Like that was the one where.
00:38:09
Speaker 3: I saw like, this was a guy who might not have been a Hall of Famer, you might have been like a Hall of very good He kept going long enough to actually make the Hall of Fame. But it's a case where, yeah, he just dropped into the ninth inning for a few years, racked up, you know, averaged like nearly fifty saves a season and had like an era around two and got some cy young votes, and everybody's very impressed. And like, how many starters could do that if you just dropped him into the ninth inning for you know, every three games.
00:38:36
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's a good question. That is a good question. These are the sixteen players, by the way, listeners that I think are Hall of Fame worthy. Barry Bonds, Roger Clements, Alex Rodriguez, Kurt Schilling, Scott Rowland, Manny Ramirez, Andrew Jones, Todd Helton, Gary Sheffield, Andy Patted, Bobby Bray, You, Mark Burley, Sammy Sosa, Tim Hudson, Jeff Kent, and David Ortiz. If you pick ten out of those sixteen players that I just read off, you're not gonna get much of an argument from me. I will be happy that you voted for the maximum amount of players, because I think we need to have a big Hall of Fame to shed some players off, to give others their day in the sun, their opportunity maybe in the future year where they have the best war out of all the players on the ballot. Because it's only going to get more loaded coming up. I mean, each row is looming for the ballot. And yeah, one of our Patreon supporters, longtime Patreon supporters, Pete Hand mister Aloha Hand on Twitter. When he goes to Cooperstown and he talks to people there, they are already preparing for each Row to be inducted because they believe it's going to be the most attended Hall of Fame event ever is when each Row makes it, because of all the fans in Seattle and all of his fans in Japan will be coming to Cooperstown, so it'll be a packed place when each Row gets in there. But you don't want people to fall off, and then in ten or fifteen years we got to talk about their Hall of Fame candidacy again. Just do the job. Now, get these ten of these sixteen Hall of Famers, whatever combination, three to five players they get past the seventy five percent, get them in, have your big halls, shed some names off of the ballot, and just make it a lot easier. So guys don't get Kenny Lofton to unfortunately use him as an example.
00:40:48
Speaker 4: Or Jim Edmunds.
00:40:49
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Jim Edmunds. That may have borderline cases that need further conversation, but you don't get them because they didn't hit five percent of the first year and they're off the ballot and we got to talk about them later on in a future committee. And it's just not fair to them, and it's not fair to the fans. And who's the blame. It's the writers in this case. It's you, guys, the writers. If you're listening to this and you're part of the association, this is your problem. Figure it out. Just hear from fans. You need to do a better job with this. Now.
00:41:25
Speaker 3: It's partially the writers, partially the Hall of Fame, because the BBWAA wanted to remove the ten player maximum, and the Hall of Fame wouldn't allow it.
00:41:34
Speaker 2: Well, that's lame, Okay, Yeah, never mind, I'm sorry. Writers. You share fifty percent of the blame Hall of Fame, you get the other fifty percent.
00:41:42
Speaker 4: There you go.
00:41:43
Speaker 2: We'll see it. We'll see how the rest of the Hall of Fame voting goes again. It is early, and we'll see what the trends are as. We'll see if Bonds and Clemens get more support. We'll see how much support David Ortiz gets is this is his first year in the ballot, and fingers cross Mark Burley survives the five percent cut off. The last thing we're going to talk about on this podcast episode we've been teasing it is the latest lockout news. Evan Drelich of The Athletic reported that Major League Baseball and Major League Baseball Players Association will meet today, December sixteenth, to discuss non economic issues of the CBA. There are things that don't evolve money in the CBA that the two parties are going to discuss whether they want to continue them in the next CBA or there's any adjustments that they have to make. It appears that the economic issues, the core dividing topic between the two parties. They will not have those conversations again until January. On his podcast, Drelich shared his belief that if a new CBA is done, it'll be around when spring training is supposed to start on February fourteenth. Again, if a new CBA is done, and it sounds like from drillage, there's some skepticism around baseball that a CBA can be agreed upon before February fourteenth, and February twenty sixth is when teams start playing spring training games, and if they don't start playing those games, then the teams are gonna have to start paying the cities that host the spring training games money because of the contracts contractually obligated to play those games, and then the owners will start to feel the financial pain of not playing spring training games. Jim, we are fifteen days into the lockout. Christmas is coming, and there's also New Year's Eve and those lucky enough take that week off from work. It appears Major League Baseball and the Players Association are doing the same. There is a lot to iron out and a new CBA, but the league is in a lockout because of the economic issues. When you hear that the two parties are pushing that conversation to January. Do you think the start of spring training is now at risk?
00:44:09
Speaker 3: It's possible, but I think it's probably. It probably benefits both sides a little bit to say that spring training could be at risk, just to maintain that unified fronts and just be in it for the long haul, or at least pretend that they're in it for the long haul. So to me, it seems like they would be saying this no matter what. And that's maybe a case where I'm tricking myself into being optimistic just because I'd like a deal to get done sooner. But on the other hand, it's you know, I've been anticipating a longer fight just because of the core economic issues at hand, just based on how much the players have to try to gain back from having the CBA used against them.
00:44:48
Speaker 4: For a couple of terms.
00:44:50
Speaker 3: Now that there are some deep seated issues that need to be resolved, so I could see it lasting into February. I think I said January fifteenth as the over underline for me, or kind of when I thought it might be most realistic, and I'm holding to that or at least. Yeah, if I had to put money anything, I guess I'd still put money there. But it could go longer, And it kind of makes sense to just because I think given how frenzied the free agent market was before the lockouts, I don't think players are necessarily intimidated by a short off season after a lockout because it might benefit them just as much, you know, driving those deals and that interest and trying to get things done. So that's a case where you know, perhaps they like the idea of a two week off season resumption to all of a sudden get it.
00:45:37
Speaker 4: Then the money starts flying again.
00:45:38
Speaker 2: It's that great for gms. Yeah, some gms that didn't do a whole lot pre lockout.
00:45:47
Speaker 3: We're trying to trade cag Crimbrol.
00:45:52
Speaker 2: Or you know, Oakland. They got to figure out what they want to do. Cincinnati needs to figure out what they want to do. There's a lot of teams that need to figure out what they want to do post blockout. But you know, when I'm hearing this news, and let's say a new CBA is not done by February fourteenth, and now it's eating into spring training, and maybe you lose some spring training games, you may have this position as a GM where you have your guys working out. Finally, because the CBA is done, everybody reports to Glendale, Arizona for the White Sox as spring training gets started. At the same time, you have this pool of very attractive free agent players that would really help teams, and you still have these trades that maybe you had conversations pre lockout, or let's be honest, conversations you're still having during the lockout, and you're still trying to iron out those trades to get those players to come to your spring training facility. And players are without homes and that's going to add stress into their home life because their significant others and their families are asking where the heck are we living? Because opening day is fast approaching. We got to figure that out. It could cause some stress. It could cause some stress if it's if a new CBA is not done by Valentine's Day and if it gets done in March. I wonder if we have a delay into the regular season, or if all parties agree, yeah, three weeks is rain Training's good enough? We can we start the season right away.
00:47:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, then again, you know, I think I'm kind of keeping in mind right now with the Bulls having most of their team on the COVID list and just the NHL games being canceled and all the NFL players going on the COVID list, Just like who knows what the variantl look like?
00:47:50
Speaker 4: Who knows that's true?
00:47:52
Speaker 3: Just like here, there's a case where like baseball benefits greatly I think from its seasonality and from you having a nice warm web games out in the open, and just that's two years in a row now where they've been able to have their season basically, you know, more or less fine. You know, they had the sixty games, but it operated pretty smoothly all things considered. Then last season was basically ideal when it comes to everything that could have happened not happening.
00:48:18
Speaker 4: So you never know.
00:48:20
Speaker 3: But right now, I think, just with the way other teams are losing players and games, that I'm keeping in mind just like maybe spring training won't be normal again, or maybe it might be another two part spring training to where they have to break it up to where they don't want you know, eighty players in camp the way they used to. You never know, so but I'm just keeping the back of my mind that spring training might not.
00:48:43
Speaker 4: Be ready to be normal yet.
00:48:44
Speaker 2: Either way, who knows, maybe we'll see Tim Anderson as the starting point guard of the Chicago Bulls.
00:48:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's getting.
00:48:53
Speaker 2: Dire, very it's getting very dire for the Chicago Bulls. But that will do it this episode of the Socks Machine Podcast. Thank you guys so much for listening. Again. If there are any updates to the lockout Talks, we'll be covering it on soxsmachine dot com, which you can visit daily for our writings and our columns. I'll be working on something regarding as far as the Major League Baseball Draft, because everybody is bored, and now they are releasing their top one hundred or top one hundred plus draft lists for the twenty twenty two Major League Baseball Draft, and I have some ideas that I hope the players' association in the league are discussing in the CBA as far as some updates for the Major League Baseball Draft. So that's something you can look forward to on soxsmachine dot com. But if you just discovered the soxs Machine podcast, or if you've been a long time listener, maybe a longtime lurker, and you don't support us right now on patreon dot com slash socks Machine. This is a great time to do so, as our Patreon supporters get exclusive content, They get every versions about the podcast and the website, and they also get the first opportunity to get our sox Machine swag. And on that topic, we have new sox Machine swag. What do we have for our listeners and readers, Jim?
00:50:12
Speaker 3: We have winter caps black nitcaps, fold up cuff with the sox Machine banner basic black, I would call it with the white and red pinwheel cog on the front.
00:50:26
Speaker 4: Very snug, very warm. Tried it out.
00:50:29
Speaker 3: Unfortunately dot com we have the tornadoes in the area, so it's not quite winter here, but when it will be, I will be wearing it and you should too.
00:50:37
Speaker 2: Yes, and you can also buy them on Soxmachine dot com at the store correct.
00:50:42
Speaker 3: Yes, they're twenty dollars that include shipping.
00:50:45
Speaker 2: Excellent. So if you want more from us, go to patreon dot com slash sox Machine, where we have monthly plants starting at two dollars a month. We also do have annual plans as well that save you nine percent off from the monthly cost. And with the new year coming up, no better time to sign up for an annual subscription for the twenty twenty two calendar year and two thousand and twenty two Major League Baseball season than right now. So again, go to Patreon dot com slash socks Machine and sign up today. You can subscribe to the Sox Machine podcast wherever you listen to podcasts like Apple, Spotify, Amazon Podcasts and The Sox Machine podcast is a production of Soxmachine dot Com, part of the Blue Wire podcast Network, and you're home for all things Chicago White Sox Baseball alongside Jim margolis I am Josh Nelson. Thanks for listening.
Speaker 1: From your favorite source for Chicago White Sox talk, delivering news, interviews, analysis and more. This is the Socks Machine Podcast with your hosts Jim Margolis and Josh Nelson.
00:00:25
Speaker 2: Thanks Rob, and welcome to the Socks Machine Podcast. I'm your host Josh Nelson, and it's Thursday, December sixteenth, twenty twenty one as we bring you a new podcast episode. We are fifteen days into the Major League Baseball lockout and boy do I miss the off season? Are we any closer to the lockout ending? While a new report from the Athletics suggests we are not. We'll discuss the latest lockout news and how early voting is going for the Baseball Hall of Fame later in the show, but first we remember Roland Heemund, who died on Monday, December thirteenth at the age of ninety two. Heemund was the Chicago White Sox journal manager from nineteen seventy to nineteen eighty five, before he moved into an advisory role with the White Sox to make way for Hal Carrolson's disaster one year tenure at GM. Heemon would later join the Baltimore Orioles as their next journal manager from the nineteen eighty eight to nineteen ninety five season before serving as senior executive vice president for the Arizona Diamondbacks when they were introduced to the league in nineteen ninety six. He returned to the White Sox as an executive advisor, winning a World Series ring with the team in two thousand and five, as he served that role from two thousand and one to two thousand and seven. After Heemun's passing, there was widespread praise from many in baseball on how much he meant to them. Well known for going out of his way and helping many fresh faces get their start in baseball. Joining me to remember Hemund is the ergy editor of Soxmachine dot Com. It's Jim Marylus and Jim Hello. In his short period, fans had lost two key members of the nineteen eighty three White Sox team, Lamar Hoyt passed away in late November, and now he Munnd. He wrote a great recap of his impact on the White Sox and maybe none bigger than helping keep the franchise relevant on the South Side, especially in nineteen seventy two.
00:02:26
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you were going through his history as track record, basically he seemed time and time again to be entrusted with teams at their most fragile state. He got his big break when it came to leading a department as the scouting director for the Los Angeles Angels and their expansion year. You mentioned that he took over the Diamondbacks when they.
00:02:47
Speaker 4: Were in their first years.
00:02:50
Speaker 3: When he joined the Orioles after the White Sox, they were trying to find themselves after Earl Weaver, and he kind of guided them back to prominence during the Camden Yards renaissance and their strong run of teams in the nineties. Yeah, that's basically just seemed like whenever a team needed somebody with you know, who wasn't intimidated by a big job and envision and like a keen scouting in a good eye for talent of all kinds, like even building a front office. It seems like teams found him and he responded well. And probably his biggest job is the most important job, or jobs I should say, were with the White Sox, both in nineteen seventy when he drew a fewer than five hundred thousand fans and there was talk about.
00:03:32
Speaker 4: Them being relocated to Milwaukee.
00:03:34
Speaker 3: They actually played some games in County Stadium, a test of that market and trying to figure out if they would be.
00:03:39
Speaker 4: The team that moved there. It ended up being the Seattle Pilots who moved to Milwaukee.
00:03:43
Speaker 3: That was a very fragile safe for the White Sox because John Allen's ownership was thoroughly undercapitalized and they could have been moved.
00:03:52
Speaker 4: And it was human who took over, and he had the foresight to make a.
00:03:58
Speaker 3: Very daring trade to get Dick Allen for Tommy John. Like Allen was, you know, one of baseball's best hitters, also had the reputation for being very controversial, very mercurial. I think we know now decades later how he earned that reputation by having clashes with the press that did not understand him or did not respect him. It did not try to understand him. And he just said, like, well, you know, Tommy John's a good pitcher in all but we've been built.
00:04:28
Speaker 4: Around pitching in defense.
00:04:29
Speaker 3: You know, for the entire existence of the White Sox franchise. We need a difference maker, we need excitement. So he got Dick Allen. He Bill Melton came along. They had guys who could actually lead the league in homers for once in their lives, and you know, they none of those teams won the division, but they were finally exciting.
00:04:47
Speaker 4: They were able to draw over a million.
00:04:49
Speaker 3: Fans and basically rescued that ownership until Bill Veck came along. And then that was another task to try to with Vex blessing as free agencies starting as this wild West opens of unprecedented player movement, to just dive in and take advantage of that and try to figure out who they can get for you know that that isn't too expensive, or who can they acquire that might be expensive shortly, but they might get one good year out of them. And that's how they got the seventy seven hit men. You know, not a good defensive team, but just loaded up on hitters. You know, Richie Zisken and Oscar Gamble the chief rentals of the team. But they just went all in to try to figure out how to generate excitements. And that's one of the most beloved teams in White Sox history because of their impact and just keeping the White Sox fixed in Chicago until you know, ultimately Bill Veck sold off to Jerry Reinsdorf's group and then they finally had an ownership that that where money wasn't the problem. You know, eventually the stadium was the problem, and there was another movement scare of there, but it was never for lack of funds the way it was with the Allen ownerships and the Veck ownership. So he had some very tough tasks when he took over, and when adjusted for the degree of difficulty, like he may have never won a World Series directly as general manager, but some of the jobs he had, and just the stakes of the jobs that he had and having to do them well enough to keep a franchise in the city, I think is really it's really hard to appreciate now in an era where teams really don't move, like back in the sixties and seventies when expansion and and you know, you had the A's going back and forth between cities, and he had just you know, the Seattle flopping and then going to Milwaukee, just had a whole bunch of possibilities for franchises to move that wasn't that was a threat and because of Roland Heeman, the White Sox survived that threat and they're still in Chicago today.
00:06:38
Speaker 2: In football, many talk about the coaching tree of former assistance of a particular head coach like Andy Reid the Kansas City Chiefs. He's had so many of his assistants become head coaches for other teams. Heemn helped so many in baseball. I don't know, Jim, if one kid create a visual of it. But for older White Sox fans, especially for that nineteen eighty three team, Heeman was responsible for bringing in Tony L. Russa into the fold and even had Dave Dombrowski on his staff, and both of those guys have won a few World Series reigns. Yeah, Jim Leland too, I forget about Jim Leland.
00:07:19
Speaker 4: Yeah.
00:07:19
Speaker 2: And then when he was in Baltimore, Doug Melvin was his farm director, And for those that live in the Milwaukee area, you might remember that name as he was the general manager for the Milwaukee Brewers for many years, helping turn around that franchise, especially with the draft picks of Ryan Brawn and Princefielder.
00:07:36
Speaker 3: And Walt Chockety too and Kenny Williams. When he took over for Ron Schuler after the two thousand season, one of the first moves he made was bringing in heman as an advisor. Another testament to human's ability just to be the guy you want when things are getting started.
00:07:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, a nice bounce spoard for ideas for Kenny Williams, who was never afraid to Wheeland deal, especially early on in his tenure as general manager. Granted, it's not a very long list compared to other franchises. The White Sox don't have a long list of general managers. But if you were to create an executive ranking list of past White Sox gms, considering as far as the situation, especially in the early seventies, and just how special and you know, how beloved as you mentioned that the nineteen seventy seven and nineteen eighty three White Sox teams were, is even close to the top or at the very top on that ranking list.
00:08:35
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's you know, there's an urge bo Kenny Williams there because he actually won the World Series and he has a great case for it. But you know, as I mentioned, the degree of difficulty thing, and just the surviving and thriving for three owners because he went from Allen to Veck to Reinsdorf and being retained throughout even when Jerry Reinsdorf fired him after the or promo to him. Slash moved him out for you know, Hawk Harrelson and that. And there's a case of you know, hiring somebody who is the exact opposite of the guy who came before. You know, Heman was somebody who cherished relationships and was a builder, and somebody who just never forgot a name and was just just widely respected around the game and and patient and and just had a love for the game and people. And and Hawk Carrelson came around kind of a combustible personality and not afraid to get into fights and cause controversy. And I think we saw the you know, with Heman's track record versus Harrelson's the GM there's the the big picture winning out and just the you know, human's ability to play the long game. Ultimately, I think defines his track record his seventy year career in baseball front offices.
00:09:49
Speaker 4: So yeah, he's he's up there.
00:09:50
Speaker 3: I think, you know, you can look at other guys like Franklin and Ed Short and even Harry Grabner from you know, the nineteen tens, but human, I think just when it comes to not having the money and having a very delicate state of the White Sox front office. It's it's, uh, yeah, he's definitely either, if not one, then definitely two. But I think there's a strong case to make him number one.
00:10:12
Speaker 4: And the thing that.
00:10:14
Speaker 3: Kind of fascinates me is just how you know, he's a favorite of writers, even like for Saber, you know, the Society for American Baseball Research, Like he was a friend to Saber, you know, very very much resource for connecting and providing you first task hand accounts or hereous so you need to talk to get the story. Just a wonderful sounding board and kind of a switchboard too for just connecting people to.
00:10:38
Speaker 4: People when they needed to talk.
00:10:40
Speaker 3: And just how widely available it was all the White Sox fans who said they had wonderful conversations with him throughout the years. And you know, I wonder, you know, if the era of the approachable GM is over, you know, or just I was thinking about that, just how much of an everyman he was and how you know, humble and and you know he didn't put on errors. He he wasn't somebody who made like, you know, six seven figures, you know, maybe made six to some points later on his career. But you know, he wasn't like a seven figure guy. He wasn't a celebrity, and so like he was just he talked to anybody and he was happy to connect anybody, and I just wanted it's hard to picture like a Rickon or theo Epstein or just the Brian Cashman, just these guys who will just talk to anybody, talk to fans, just you know, no errors about it, no you know, no VIP treatments. Just because the job has changed so much. I think there was a lot of room for him and in his position to try and fail.
00:11:37
Speaker 4: I think part of.
00:11:38
Speaker 3: It is, you know, with with you know, Rickhon when he makes a bad trade because of just the social media, just though the internet living forever everything, uh you know, just nothing dying, like he hears about it, he'll hear about it forever. But you know, in a case where the media was three four newspapers and maybe some radio, maybe some TV, but mostly just newspaper and fans, it was probably a lot easier to not feel like you were going to be pillar read. Perhaps uh maybe you just weren't high profile. For better or for worse, people didn't know you. When he did well, people didn't know you when he did poorly. You were just somebody who was not too far removed from you know, traveling on the country and scouting for you.
00:12:21
Speaker 4: Know, thousands, you know, Mirre, thousands of dollars, you know.
00:12:25
Speaker 3: So maybe that's the case where you know, just had he he was, uh, he broke in with the Boston Braves. So that's how far he dates back. And wow, how uh you know, just a scout for the Boston Braves in the nineteen fifties.
00:12:38
Speaker 4: They're not making much.
00:12:39
Speaker 3: So perhaps his origins were such that he always maintained his ability to connect, no matter whether it was you know, high profile baseball executives or you know, college kids at the winter meetings or you know, seasonal employees in the ballpark. Just seemed like he had everybody's name.
00:12:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, the topic that you brain up. Can can anyone just walk up to a JURM manager? Sure, if you're at the coffee shop, can you hold down a conversation and have small talk with with someone like riccon or any GM of any of the four major sports teams today? I don't know, Jim, that's a great question. I may lean to know. Even though there are times that Ricon comes off very personable during his press conferences. The vast majority of gms today are careful on what they say. So if you catch them in like that type of situation where it's unscripted, I don't know on how engaging they're gonna be. I don't know. I've never ran into a general manager in the public before. Yeah, so the next time I do, I'll try, I'll try small talk with them and I'll report back, well, I've.
00:13:57
Speaker 4: Talked to your recon at soas best.
00:13:59
Speaker 3: I talked to him with the Saber Seminar in Boston, and that's the case. He was very chatty and talking to anybody who want to talk to him. But that's the case also where he's prepared to talk. You know, he's on a panel, he's right, you know, or in socks bests, he's on multiple panels. He's there to connect with season ticket holders.
00:14:12
Speaker 4: So that's his job.
00:14:13
Speaker 3: But yeah, when you're hearing about it constantly and your kids are hearing about it constantly, I wonder if you're just there's more of a defense there.
00:14:18
Speaker 4: Whereas you know, when Roland Eman was working for.
00:14:21
Speaker 3: Bill Veck, after Veck took over re took over the White Sox in the seventies where they go to the winter meetings instead of a folding table in the middle of room saying open for business. You know, it's a case where you know that that might come off as incredibly amateurish. Now if Rick Han and Kenny Williams did that in the middle of you know, the the Gaylord Oppery Land or you know, San Diego Convention Center is just propping down a card table and saying let's talk, like nobody woud take him seriously now, so I think everything's more polished and refined, and there's a lot more just people who can spread word. So yeah, perhaps it's a case where just you know, I'm sure he'd be perfectly nice, but comes to just uh, the willingness to connect the way heman did and just having he seemed like his guard was down. And maybe it was easier back then to just have your guard down because he just you didn't you weren't a celebrity the way gms are now.
00:15:13
Speaker 2: That's a really good point. That's a really good point on that topic of going to a table and say that you're open for business. Didn't they make like six trades during those winter meetings something like that.
00:15:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, often depending on how long this lockout goes, that's probably something to write about, just the various you know, rolling human trades and just figuring, you know, going through the archives and uh saying, but I remember going to the Hall of Fame library and saying just basically like a classified ad for the White Sox just saying that they're they're wheeling and dealing now, so give them a call.
00:15:48
Speaker 2: Well, depending on how the lockout talks go, and we'll be talking about that next on the Sox Machine Podcast. Here, uh Rick, Connie, Kenny Williams may need to get a virtual table and let everyone know that they're open for business because I'm not quite sure and how much time they're going to have before the start of spring training, as we'll talk about that and how the early Hall of Fame voting trends are coming along as we are getting public ballots next on the Sox Machine Podcast. After a quick word from our sponsors, welcome back to the Sox Machine Podcast. While Roland Heemund has his legacy forever secure in baseball, there are some seeking immortality in the sport, earning the honor of becoming a Hall of Famer. Writers part of the Baseball Writers Association of America who have at least ten years of service get to vote, and early ballots are being tabulated in large thanks to Ryan Thibodeaux and his staff. As we record this episode, twenty six ballots have been made public and entered into Ryan Thibodeau's database that he makes public that you can see on Twitter or online, and as you the listener, get a chance to listen to this episode, I'm sure more ballots will become public. The estimated number of ballots for this voting year is three hundred and ninety two, which a player needs seventy five percent of the vote to make the Hall of Fame, so it's a race to two hundred and ninety four votes for these players. It's only six point six percent of the reported ballots and so we have a long way to go, but early trend suggests that we might not see anyone get above seventy five percent. Out of the twenty six ballots reported publicly, Barry Bonds and Roger Clements show up at eighty percent and newcomer David Ortiz is currently at seventy six percent. Again, we have a long way to go. But Mark Burley is only on one ballot so far and he needs five percent to stay alive on the ballot for next year. Jim, this is a loaded Hall of Fame ballot. When looking at the ballot, there are sixteen players who had a career War of fifty five or more, five players who had a career seventy plus War and three wood one hundred plus War players. So why am I worry that the writers are going to make the same mistake we've seen through the years and nobody gets elected just because.
00:18:24
Speaker 3: The precedent of their are very public. Ongoing struggle with players who either took steroids and were busted or were you know, widely connected to them or traceable to them, or were suggested to have taken them or had suspicious careers. Just yeah, it's still a mess. I mean, this will be the last year that Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds are on the ballot to deal with it. You also have some miserable people like Kurchilling and Omer of Ascal, like just they seem to be you know, gaining entry or headway towards entry to Cooper's down before they both took turns for the worst to where they just became too toxic to maintain their support. So yeah, just it's right now, probably maybe the least fun Hall of Fame voting has ever been.
00:19:14
Speaker 2: And out of the twenty six ballots, eleven of the twenty six have had the full ten player ballot. We've had two ballots with eight players, four with seven. Then you get you know, multiples for six, five and four players, and then there is the there is the ballots that have no players on them. So far, we have only had one ballot that showed up blank. And I know we have talked about Hall of Fame voting over the years. How do you feel about a voter who turns in a blank ballot?
00:19:52
Speaker 3: I don't care for it. I get it. It's I think.
00:19:57
Speaker 4: The older I get, you know, just I think it.
00:20:00
Speaker 3: At one point, everybody is a kind of a small Hall Hall of Fame person. You know, they at least do a lot of serious baseball fans when they're learning the game. They're learning like the inner circle players versus the you know, more outsider players versus the players who were you know, either weird voting cases or were ushered in through weird veteran committee high jinks of the nineteen sixties and seventies. You get a sense like, oh, these are the real Hall of famers. These are ones who shouldn't be there. We need more real Hall of famers. And I think the at least my case, and I've seen other people reflect this. The older get, the more ballplayers you see come across your radar, you understand better the people who say, like, I think Roger Marrier should be in the Hall of Fame because he's famous, or you know, I think that, you know, Dick Allen should be in Hall of Fame because I've never seen anybody hit the ball like him. You know, there are cases where you might say, like, you know, Roger Mayors had one good season. Outside of one good season, he's not quite there. But you know, Dick Allen, I think everybody's coming around to him. But just having these conversations and just realizing, like, what's the harm of having too many Hall of Famers, Like maybe the institution is cheapened a little bits, but who suffers, Like I don't even you know, I don't think the Hall of Fame suffers that much.
00:21:12
Speaker 4: I don't think the museum suffers.
00:21:13
Speaker 3: I mean, Cooperstown does great when more people come up to you know, visits over the course of the summer and see the plaques and go to the induction ceremony, so nobody's really harmed.
00:21:23
Speaker 4: You know.
00:21:23
Speaker 3: I think it's a it's an interesting intellectual exercise to try to rank the best players and try to maintain a small hall. But you know, the the more I see, and in the case of like Mark Burley, who might not be a Hall of Famer, but it'd be really cool if he were in, Like I think that's the way I put it is I get why he's not there, get why he's not getting supports, but you you could tell a really cool story with him involved. And and if he got in, like maybe you know I would say, like a non Socks fan me ten years ago go like, oh, that's that's bs the way that Jack Morris got in because he pitched a couple.
00:21:57
Speaker 4: Of good games and and and.
00:21:59
Speaker 3: The World Series, and uh, you know, it was a good quote to the media, like you know, you roll your eyes and say Jack Morris is not a Hall of Famer, but now that Jack Morris is in, like it doesn't matter. Like it's you know, a lot of people were happy that he was in a lot of Tigers fans and Twins fans were happy were in, Like fine.
00:22:16
Speaker 4: You know, that's that's good.
00:22:18
Speaker 3: So like I think when you think, you know, I think you when you when you're looking at a Hall of Fame ballots and you can't say that Roger Clemens is in the Hall of Famer because of steroids, and Barry Bonds is and and Sammy Sosa is in.
00:22:28
Speaker 4: Gary Sheffield isn't.
00:22:29
Speaker 3: And you can't vote for David Ortiz because he might have been, and Sammy Sosa because he might have been. And then you get down to like, Okay, Kurt Schilling you can't because he's a jerk, and yeah, and you can't, you know, And then you get to Scott Rolling. It's just like, well, he wasn't the perfect third baseman because he wasn't healthy. Otherwise he was, you know, a top seven third basement in baseball, but he wasn't perfect, so he's not like you just after a while, you just it seems like kind of a miserable outlook for a Hall of Fame voter to look.
00:22:56
Speaker 4: At a ballot and see nobody. So that's I think.
00:22:59
Speaker 3: Where I think it's too disconnected from who the museum ultimately serves, which is baseball fans. If you can't look at a ballt and say like nobody belongs here, Like when it comes to the steroid guys like you and I were baseball fans coming up during the steroid steroid era.
00:23:15
Speaker 4: My favorite player.
00:23:16
Speaker 3: Growing up is jose and Saco. You know, just he was like an action figure on a baseball field. He did incredible things.
00:23:23
Speaker 4: Like he he drew me to the game.
00:23:26
Speaker 3: I probably would not like baseball as much as I do because if jose and Sako weren't there at that time, because he was the one who kind of drew me into it. He was fun to imitate in the backyard. He was, you know, flashy, and you just like the way that nobody in the White Sox was like jose Ca and Saco. And that's why I was gravitated towards him first, and then you know, gravitated towards the White Sox later. And so when when I see the steroid go and even like Keinseco, like the when you know, going to Komiskey Park, Old Kimisky Park and hearing steroid chants and then you know, fifteen years later when he's on a ballot and Mark Guire's you know, going through you know, the ballot for the first time, and you know, he's having to testify and in front of Congress, and people are saying like, well.
00:24:08
Speaker 4: He's ruined the game.
00:24:09
Speaker 3: Just no, he didn't, because people in Komiski Park were chanting steroids at these guys in nineteen eighty nine and nineteen ninety that that seven and eight year old me remembers and people turn the other way, and in whole generations of baseball fans were became baseball fans because of these players, so to kind of shut them out of the Hall of Fame, especially guys who weren't you know, you can't directly connect to steroids. You can only do circumstantial evidence. Like that's I think when you rull those guys out and say like, nah, he hit six hundred homers, but yeah, I think he used whereas like somebody like Jim Tomey who was in the same timetable, but because he's a nice guy, he gets in just like That's that's where I think it just gets a little bit like I would say, if you can't look at a ballot and turn one in, you know, with the name crossed on, and just like just just abstain for a year, sit it out, and then return when there's somebody alike, versus turning into blank ballot.
00:25:01
Speaker 2: Well, this particular voter, I think recently only voted for Derek Jeter, and the previous year didn't vote for anyone else either. So it's this one particular writer that continues to do this. And when I look at the ballots that are coming in that are public, again a vast majority are not going to be public. But so I'm very thankful for the work that Ryan Thibodeau is doing because it does for those that do cast their ballot and they tweet about it or they put it in an article or other forms of social media. When they do make it public, that information is collected and we can track it along the way. And I'm with you, Jim. When I look at this ballot, I see, honestly, I see sixteen Hall of famers. So my opinion is, if you have a ten person ballot, I'm good whoever you pick out of those sixteen. If you pick ten of them any combination, I'm good with that. And it makes sense to me. Cool we're not gonna have an argument if you only pick five guys, I'm gonna ask you to go back to your ballot and do a little bit more homework. And maybe it's that conversation of well, I don't want to vote for anyone that use PDEs or use steroids, or possibly lied to the media when I'm glad you mentioned it, nobody complained about nineteen ninety eight. There are certain writers that certainly made themselves a career following and writing about Sammy Sosa and his run for the home run record in nineteen ninety eight and drew more eyeballs to their work that puts them in a position today to cast judgments on these players, whether or not they're Hall of Fame worthy. I just that's the one thing that I'm looking at these public ballots right now, is this trend. We need to see more ten person ballots, because if the trend goes reverse and we see many ballots that are less than half filled in five or fewer players are checked off, I'm really concerned, especially like for Mark Burley, but I'm concerned about Bonds and Clemens and Shilling and Sosa and the conversations that we had recently about Dick Allen, and everyone's like, Dick Callen is a Hall of Fame worthy player, he should be in. What are we doing well? In a decade or fifteen years from now, We're going to have these same exact conversations again with Bonds, Clemens, Shilling and Sosa asking ourselves what in the world was that everyone thinking a decade ago? And now you got the newcomers coming in, which I'm surprised so many of them. Of these ballots early on, the trends are well, I can't vote for Bonds and Clements, but I could vote for David Ortiz really, Okay, all right, so that that must be the line.
00:28:18
Speaker 3: Okay, well, I think like Ortiz and Sosa are both named in the same reports.
00:28:23
Speaker 4: Yes, and so I think, so, says the guy I correlate to Ortiz.
00:28:27
Speaker 3: Just support for one and not the other, because you know, Bonds and Clemens they have kind of a more thorough history and more documented history does But yeah, the thing, yeah, I guess I have in mind is that you know, when it comes to say like miserable human beings, like you know, I would say Kurt Schilling is one, you know, omer of a Scull has been accused of some pretty ghastly things active lawsuits, two different incidents.
00:28:51
Speaker 4: Yeah. So, like, the one thing I will say is like the Baseball of fame is.
00:28:56
Speaker 3: Like it's an honor, it's not a right, Like if you hit six hundred homer is like you don't necessarily guaranteed entry, like you you know, you should have some baseline for humanity, uh to get in or like if people want to withhold their vote because they might be like in Viscal's case, like a monster.
00:29:12
Speaker 4: Uh then uh, you know, I don't mind that.
00:29:14
Speaker 3: Like and and especially Shilling is going so far out of his way to turn off voters. He could have been in years ago if he just you know, was a decent person, like or even stayed quiet, yeah, or even just you know. And it's not as politics because like you know, Mariano Rivera shares his politics at least when it comes to voting. And Rivera was unanimous, uh you know, and Rivera is very like a public you conservative and very public supporter of Trump. And just like that's fine. He votes for who he votes for. It it's not but he's not like a toxic person the way.
00:29:46
Speaker 4: That Shilling is.
00:29:47
Speaker 3: And goes out as way to alienate and and and and foment hate against certain people. Just like if you just kept you know, kept it more to himself, like he'd be in already. So if you want to be like a jerk and turn voters and they don't get in, like I don't necessarily care about that, but I think I get more caught up in like say like a Scott Roland case or something like that, or Okay, you don't you don't give any quarter to steroid users. You don't give any quarter to people who are tied to steroids or you know kind of there they have a timeline that where you can draw circumstantial evidence to it. Okay, then like say Scott Roland, who's a top seven to third baseman and who had a very and this is all speculative, but because everything else is speculative, Like he had a natural career, He got older, he had to deal with injuries, got banged up, had troubles staying in the field, but ultimately was productive enough to be you know, one of the best who ever play his position, and he can't get headwayes like, well, what are you rewarding them? Like only the people who are age in such a way where they are incredible in their twenties, and you know, then they have to get older, but not suspiciously, so like they have to age in a certain way that fits a you know, timeline that basically avoids even just the most reflex of suspicion. Like that's where I just kind of, you know, throw out my hands and say, like I don't, I don't get it.
00:31:06
Speaker 4: A case like.
00:31:07
Speaker 3: Todd Helton, which is another you know, he's a case where just like they're still trying to figure out what course Field has to do. But like he was, you know, he's a big figure for one of you know, he and Larry Walker are the two central figures in the history of one of you know, Major leagues baseball teams.
00:31:26
Speaker 4: Like it's just the way mister you know Minimnosa got in.
00:31:29
Speaker 3: Is mister white Sox like Todd Helton, Like if he's the you know, most central figure in Rockies history, Like why isn't he in, you know, like why is he getting more support? So yeah, that's that's where I think I just get all kind of confused and tied up. Is just like if you if the bar is so high for players to get in, but also like you can't even you might have to have you steroids in order to clear it it. It doesn't serve anybody. And I think that's where I get irritated, is not along the best, but also not along the the people who might have been the best when you factor in all the people who might have been using like it's just no matter how how you like fold it and approach it, like there should be Hall of famers there somewhere.
00:32:10
Speaker 2: I agree that Scott Roland's a great case. Seventeen year career, seventy war for his career. Think about that, that's around four war for seventeen years. You know, we get we need we get excited, Jim what a White Sox player reaches for war in a season because they have had a really good season And Scott Roland turned out that type of performance for more than a decade like that. That's that's how I feel about the Hall of Fame is that when you look at the career war of these guys and you look at their peaks, and you can take a look at their values as well. But it's just amazing to me on how some of these names who were big players and big stars are still in the outside looking in, and I don't know what needs to change. You know, there are some that say, well, the way that we vote as writers needs to change. Maybe goes to yes no, and then it's the percentage of how many yeses did you get that advances you into the Hall of Fame. I also think the Associate the Association needs to get a lot younger. It really needs to get a lot younger. There are some baseball writers that are very jaded against the players on this ballot, and they're making their voices heard now in their disapproval. They didn't disapprove it that much back then when they were covering it, but now they're making their disapproval known. And our generation, when we're in our forties and fifties, gym has to fix everything in the Golden Era committee for these guys ten to fifteen years down the road. But yes, Scott Roland and you mentioned Todd Helton. Gary Sheffield I think is a Hall of Famer. He's got more than five hundred home runs in his career. And then, of course, you know I the homer pick Mark Burley, as you mentioned, that would be a fantastic story for him. To be in the Hall of Fame, the perfect game, the no hitter, being drunk and closing out a World Series game. We talked about as far as a previous podcast. You know, if Jim Cott made it to the Hall of Fame eventually, maybe that helps Mark Burley's case later down the road, because you know, one's going to be the next pitcher that has fourteen consecutive two hundred inning seasons. It would have to start next season because we don't really have a an active list today to match what Burley did. When it comes to Burley, how do you feel about his chances of staying on the ballot for next year, because again it is a five percent threshold.
00:34:46
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's trickier. I mean, like Joe Colly, he fell off Cally's.
00:34:50
Speaker 3: Ballot and which is irritating because Viscal is still on it.
00:34:53
Speaker 2: Are you serious? I did not see that.
00:34:55
Speaker 3: Really, I'm looking at I'm looking at the tracker now. Yeah, he says he would have voted for Burley. He did vote four ten players.
00:35:01
Speaker 4: Okay, so he max it out. But Burley is the first one off.
00:35:04
Speaker 2: But just like, how do you have this scale?
00:35:07
Speaker 3: Okay, whatever, but uh yeah, it's just that's the case where just you know, he needs every vote I think to stay on. I think I like his chances still, but he might be coming close, going from like eleven to six percent or something like that. I'm guessing his case will be. If he gets in, it'll be through a committee. Part of me like just likes having guys on the ballot for ten years because they get their stories told for ten years, they get kicked around, they get a nice post from Jay Jaffy at Fancrafts talking about their careers, and Joe Posnanski talks, mom, it's nice, like it's just nice way to remember. It's like a temporary Hall of Fame. And that's what I kind of like about the ballot itself. And that's why I don't mind, you know, the guy who's kind of kick around for ten years, even if they never quite gain momentum. I see a purpose there, even if it doesn't materialize anything. I think the only thing I get irritated about with Hall of Fame support is closers like Billy Wagner getting fifty percent.
00:35:53
Speaker 4: I don't care for it.
00:35:55
Speaker 2: He's not one of the sixteen that I mentioned that I think is Hall of Fame.
00:35:59
Speaker 3: Where Yeah, I think like the Craig Kimberl the experience in the White Sox where he just kept hearing future Hall of Famer over and over.
00:36:06
Speaker 4: Again, and one he didn't pitch like it.
00:36:08
Speaker 3: But even if he could, like, he couldn't have made a difference in the alds.
00:36:15
Speaker 4: Like he couldn't like just and when a closer is like damn.
00:36:18
Speaker 3: Just how many people could have been great closers that they weren't starters if they weren't very good starters coming up.
00:36:23
Speaker 4: Shot of the Hall of Fame?
00:36:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, again, Mariano Rivera, as you mentioned, he's the unicorn. I think there's little doubt that he is the greatest closer of all time. Should he have been the first unanimous voted in player? Probably not, because come on, there are far greater players that were voted to the Hall of Fame before Mariano Rivera that did not get unanimous selection. Ken Griffy Junior didn't get unanimous selection. What the hell is that about? Even Derek Jeter going going the a Key's Round, did he get unanimous selection?
00:36:55
Speaker 3: Yeah, but it's like, yeah, Billy Wagner's throwing a nine hundred and.
00:36:57
Speaker 4: Three innings, I guess like in.
00:36:59
Speaker 3: His career, like Edwin Jackson threw a thousand more like who had the more impressive career?
00:37:04
Speaker 4: Right, Like whose job was harder?
00:37:05
Speaker 3: I think Edwin Jackson's job was harder, even though Billy Wagner might have been better his job. And like you know, if you put Edwin Jackson ninth inning, maybe he wouldn't have been as dominant. But just like it's so the bar is so low to be great, you just have to be The hard part is just staying healthy for long enough to accumulate like that four hundred save role.
00:37:23
Speaker 4: But otherwise, like just they're so replaceable or so they can they can be.
00:37:31
Speaker 3: Ruled out of a game or or kind of just circumstances can conspire against some not factor into the biggest games possible. And I just don't get the point of honoring the position that heavily.
00:37:43
Speaker 2: Maybe we just don't like relievers.
00:37:45
Speaker 3: Jim, Yeah, it's possible, but like I mean, like John Smoltz, like when he did is you know, going to closing after starting and then just like he kind of just showed like how good you know, very good starters could be in that.
00:38:00
Speaker 4: Situation.
00:38:00
Speaker 3: Like I don't know if he gets to the Hall of Fame if he doesn't have that three year run of like being an elite closer and then going back to the rotation being a very good starter again.
00:38:07
Speaker 4: Like that was the one where.
00:38:09
Speaker 3: I saw like, this was a guy who might not have been a Hall of Famer, you might have been like a Hall of very good He kept going long enough to actually make the Hall of Fame. But it's a case where, yeah, he just dropped into the ninth inning for a few years, racked up, you know, averaged like nearly fifty saves a season and had like an era around two and got some cy young votes, and everybody's very impressed. And like, how many starters could do that if you just dropped him into the ninth inning for you know, every three games.
00:38:36
Speaker 2: I don't know. That's a good question. That is a good question. These are the sixteen players, by the way, listeners that I think are Hall of Fame worthy. Barry Bonds, Roger Clements, Alex Rodriguez, Kurt Schilling, Scott Rowland, Manny Ramirez, Andrew Jones, Todd Helton, Gary Sheffield, Andy Patted, Bobby Bray, You, Mark Burley, Sammy Sosa, Tim Hudson, Jeff Kent, and David Ortiz. If you pick ten out of those sixteen players that I just read off, you're not gonna get much of an argument from me. I will be happy that you voted for the maximum amount of players, because I think we need to have a big Hall of Fame to shed some players off, to give others their day in the sun, their opportunity maybe in the future year where they have the best war out of all the players on the ballot. Because it's only going to get more loaded coming up. I mean, each row is looming for the ballot. And yeah, one of our Patreon supporters, longtime Patreon supporters, Pete Hand mister Aloha Hand on Twitter. When he goes to Cooperstown and he talks to people there, they are already preparing for each Row to be inducted because they believe it's going to be the most attended Hall of Fame event ever is when each Row makes it, because of all the fans in Seattle and all of his fans in Japan will be coming to Cooperstown, so it'll be a packed place when each Row gets in there. But you don't want people to fall off, and then in ten or fifteen years we got to talk about their Hall of Fame candidacy again. Just do the job. Now, get these ten of these sixteen Hall of Famers, whatever combination, three to five players they get past the seventy five percent, get them in, have your big halls, shed some names off of the ballot, and just make it a lot easier. So guys don't get Kenny Lofton to unfortunately use him as an example.
00:40:48
Speaker 4: Or Jim Edmunds.
00:40:49
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Jim Edmunds. That may have borderline cases that need further conversation, but you don't get them because they didn't hit five percent of the first year and they're off the ballot and we got to talk about them later on in a future committee. And it's just not fair to them, and it's not fair to the fans. And who's the blame. It's the writers in this case. It's you, guys, the writers. If you're listening to this and you're part of the association, this is your problem. Figure it out. Just hear from fans. You need to do a better job with this. Now.
00:41:25
Speaker 3: It's partially the writers, partially the Hall of Fame, because the BBWAA wanted to remove the ten player maximum, and the Hall of Fame wouldn't allow it.
00:41:34
Speaker 2: Well, that's lame, Okay, Yeah, never mind, I'm sorry. Writers. You share fifty percent of the blame Hall of Fame, you get the other fifty percent.
00:41:42
Speaker 4: There you go.
00:41:43
Speaker 2: We'll see it. We'll see how the rest of the Hall of Fame voting goes again. It is early, and we'll see what the trends are as. We'll see if Bonds and Clemens get more support. We'll see how much support David Ortiz gets is this is his first year in the ballot, and fingers cross Mark Burley survives the five percent cut off. The last thing we're going to talk about on this podcast episode we've been teasing it is the latest lockout news. Evan Drelich of The Athletic reported that Major League Baseball and Major League Baseball Players Association will meet today, December sixteenth, to discuss non economic issues of the CBA. There are things that don't evolve money in the CBA that the two parties are going to discuss whether they want to continue them in the next CBA or there's any adjustments that they have to make. It appears that the economic issues, the core dividing topic between the two parties. They will not have those conversations again until January. On his podcast, Drelich shared his belief that if a new CBA is done, it'll be around when spring training is supposed to start on February fourteenth. Again, if a new CBA is done, and it sounds like from drillage, there's some skepticism around baseball that a CBA can be agreed upon before February fourteenth, and February twenty sixth is when teams start playing spring training games, and if they don't start playing those games, then the teams are gonna have to start paying the cities that host the spring training games money because of the contracts contractually obligated to play those games, and then the owners will start to feel the financial pain of not playing spring training games. Jim, we are fifteen days into the lockout. Christmas is coming, and there's also New Year's Eve and those lucky enough take that week off from work. It appears Major League Baseball and the Players Association are doing the same. There is a lot to iron out and a new CBA, but the league is in a lockout because of the economic issues. When you hear that the two parties are pushing that conversation to January. Do you think the start of spring training is now at risk?
00:44:09
Speaker 3: It's possible, but I think it's probably. It probably benefits both sides a little bit to say that spring training could be at risk, just to maintain that unified fronts and just be in it for the long haul, or at least pretend that they're in it for the long haul. So to me, it seems like they would be saying this no matter what. And that's maybe a case where I'm tricking myself into being optimistic just because I'd like a deal to get done sooner. But on the other hand, it's you know, I've been anticipating a longer fight just because of the core economic issues at hand, just based on how much the players have to try to gain back from having the CBA used against them.
00:44:48
Speaker 4: For a couple of terms.
00:44:50
Speaker 3: Now that there are some deep seated issues that need to be resolved, so I could see it lasting into February. I think I said January fifteenth as the over underline for me, or kind of when I thought it might be most realistic, and I'm holding to that or at least. Yeah, if I had to put money anything, I guess I'd still put money there. But it could go longer, And it kind of makes sense to just because I think given how frenzied the free agent market was before the lockouts, I don't think players are necessarily intimidated by a short off season after a lockout because it might benefit them just as much, you know, driving those deals and that interest and trying to get things done. So that's a case where you know, perhaps they like the idea of a two week off season resumption to all of a sudden get it.
00:45:37
Speaker 4: Then the money starts flying again.
00:45:38
Speaker 2: It's that great for gms. Yeah, some gms that didn't do a whole lot pre lockout.
00:45:47
Speaker 3: We're trying to trade cag Crimbrol.
00:45:52
Speaker 2: Or you know, Oakland. They got to figure out what they want to do. Cincinnati needs to figure out what they want to do. There's a lot of teams that need to figure out what they want to do post blockout. But you know, when I'm hearing this news, and let's say a new CBA is not done by February fourteenth, and now it's eating into spring training, and maybe you lose some spring training games, you may have this position as a GM where you have your guys working out. Finally, because the CBA is done, everybody reports to Glendale, Arizona for the White Sox as spring training gets started. At the same time, you have this pool of very attractive free agent players that would really help teams, and you still have these trades that maybe you had conversations pre lockout, or let's be honest, conversations you're still having during the lockout, and you're still trying to iron out those trades to get those players to come to your spring training facility. And players are without homes and that's going to add stress into their home life because their significant others and their families are asking where the heck are we living? Because opening day is fast approaching. We got to figure that out. It could cause some stress. It could cause some stress if it's if a new CBA is not done by Valentine's Day and if it gets done in March. I wonder if we have a delay into the regular season, or if all parties agree, yeah, three weeks is rain Training's good enough? We can we start the season right away.
00:47:34
Speaker 3: Yeah, then again, you know, I think I'm kind of keeping in mind right now with the Bulls having most of their team on the COVID list and just the NHL games being canceled and all the NFL players going on the COVID list, Just like who knows what the variantl look like?
00:47:50
Speaker 4: Who knows that's true?
00:47:52
Speaker 3: Just like here, there's a case where like baseball benefits greatly I think from its seasonality and from you having a nice warm web games out in the open, and just that's two years in a row now where they've been able to have their season basically, you know, more or less fine. You know, they had the sixty games, but it operated pretty smoothly all things considered. Then last season was basically ideal when it comes to everything that could have happened not happening.
00:48:18
Speaker 4: So you never know.
00:48:20
Speaker 3: But right now, I think, just with the way other teams are losing players and games, that I'm keeping in mind just like maybe spring training won't be normal again, or maybe it might be another two part spring training to where they have to break it up to where they don't want you know, eighty players in camp the way they used to. You never know, so but I'm just keeping the back of my mind that spring training might not.
00:48:43
Speaker 4: Be ready to be normal yet.
00:48:44
Speaker 2: Either way, who knows, maybe we'll see Tim Anderson as the starting point guard of the Chicago Bulls.
00:48:49
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's getting.
00:48:53
Speaker 2: Dire, very it's getting very dire for the Chicago Bulls. But that will do it this episode of the Socks Machine Podcast. Thank you guys so much for listening. Again. If there are any updates to the lockout Talks, we'll be covering it on soxsmachine dot com, which you can visit daily for our writings and our columns. I'll be working on something regarding as far as the Major League Baseball Draft, because everybody is bored, and now they are releasing their top one hundred or top one hundred plus draft lists for the twenty twenty two Major League Baseball Draft, and I have some ideas that I hope the players' association in the league are discussing in the CBA as far as some updates for the Major League Baseball Draft. So that's something you can look forward to on soxsmachine dot com. But if you just discovered the soxs Machine podcast, or if you've been a long time listener, maybe a longtime lurker, and you don't support us right now on patreon dot com slash socks Machine. This is a great time to do so, as our Patreon supporters get exclusive content, They get every versions about the podcast and the website, and they also get the first opportunity to get our sox Machine swag. And on that topic, we have new sox Machine swag. What do we have for our listeners and readers, Jim?
00:50:12
Speaker 3: We have winter caps black nitcaps, fold up cuff with the sox Machine banner basic black, I would call it with the white and red pinwheel cog on the front.
00:50:26
Speaker 4: Very snug, very warm. Tried it out.
00:50:29
Speaker 3: Unfortunately dot com we have the tornadoes in the area, so it's not quite winter here, but when it will be, I will be wearing it and you should too.
00:50:37
Speaker 2: Yes, and you can also buy them on Soxmachine dot com at the store correct.
00:50:42
Speaker 3: Yes, they're twenty dollars that include shipping.
00:50:45
Speaker 2: Excellent. So if you want more from us, go to patreon dot com slash sox Machine, where we have monthly plants starting at two dollars a month. We also do have annual plans as well that save you nine percent off from the monthly cost. And with the new year coming up, no better time to sign up for an annual subscription for the twenty twenty two calendar year and two thousand and twenty two Major League Baseball season than right now. So again, go to Patreon dot com slash socks Machine and sign up today. You can subscribe to the Sox Machine podcast wherever you listen to podcasts like Apple, Spotify, Amazon Podcasts and The Sox Machine podcast is a production of Soxmachine dot Com, part of the Blue Wire podcast Network, and you're home for all things Chicago White Sox Baseball alongside Jim margolis I am Josh Nelson. Thanks for listening.
