Holly: Hey, because, you know, some conversations, really is a challenge to keep the conversation just to an hour. If you've noticed, if you're a follower of Second Breakfast and you listen a lot, you will notice that all of the conversations end at an hour. Because I know for myself, I'm a busy person and I think sometimes, like when I look at the podcast and it is two hours long, like that is a turnoff for me because I feel like I can't fully listen to the conversation.
Emma: Hey, Amigas, we've been putting a lot of effort into our online training platform and I want to make sure you know about it. SWA online is a membership based platform that is packed with surf tutorial videos categorized by experience level and board length. You can learn everything from how to wrap your longboard leash so it actually stays on to tips to troubleshoot backside tube riding and everything in between.
Holly: where are you in the world ⁓ did you serve today?
Danielle Cass: I wish I'm in Berkeley, California, and I was gonna surf, but I got in late last night picking up my, my eldest kid just got back from the East coast. He's in grad school. And so I thought we should bond this morning. So I listened to him play guitar, brought him breakfast. We took the dog for a walk. ⁓ So, but definitely planning to surf later this week and it's mother's day. So we're planning a big paddle out.
Holly: But this conversation that I just had with Danielle Cass, I feel like we could have talked for like three hours. She is a super engaging storyteller and we covered a range of topics. We started with her journey of finding out that she had cancer and the treatment that she went through and how surfing really kept her sane and also healthy, that her doctor supported her being a surfer. And I think she has a really powerful message there.
Emma: all taught by super knowledgeable female surf coaches. There's also surf specific yoga classes, workout programs, surf edits to get you frothy and interesting and inspiring stories from women in our circle. There's both a monthly and yearly membership option, but if you're not looking to add another one of those to your collection, there's also the option to buy individual courses and workout series like our six week.
Holly: Awesome. Yeah, I feel I'm in Costa Rica and I feel so disconnected from like holidays like that. Like you saying it's Mother's Day. I'm like, is it Mother's Day this weekend? OK, that's good to know. But I was before we connected, I was just kind of scrolling your Instagram and it seemed like the things that you just mentioned, like family and guitar playing feature. Very, very big in that. if you have been diagnosed with cancer or someone else in your life. But we don't just talk about cancer. We're also talking about community and community in surfing and how to find it, how to cultivate it, how learning to surf as a 50 year old woman made her feel beautiful and sexy and strong. It's not something I always hear from people. So it was really interesting to hear her explain her perspective on that.
Danielle Cass: Yeah, ⁓ and actually when I was going through cancer, I think it was like surfing, family, and guitar playing that were among the three things that really kept me going ⁓ and enabled me to have kind of a pretty awesome cancer experience, I gotta say. I feel really lucky.
Emma: Surf Trip Ready Workout Program, which is probably the most popular on the platform. If you've got a retreat coming up, you definitely want to check that one out. So head over to surfwithamigas.com and click on the Surf Tutorials and tab to check it all out ⁓ and I'll see you there.
Holly: And then finally we get into technology because she actually ⁓ works for Microsoft and in the ethics department focusing on AI. So it was a really interesting conversation. She is a awesome storyteller, very inspiring, amazing energy. And you're welcome for keeping it to an hour, but there was a lot more we could have talked about. And where are you in that process?
Danielle Cass: Yeah, thanks for asking. I was diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer on September 5th, had my double mastectomy on October 13th, chose not to get reconstruction because they basically were like, you're a surfer, you'll be able to get out in the water way sooner without reconstruction. And there's a whole story about how I engaged like the Facebook Women Who Surf group around that. And then chemo started. few weeks after my recovery was considered done. So chemo started in December. I did 12 rounds of chemo and that ended, I guess at the end of February. And now I am a month and a half in to nine months of, still have my port in my chest. So you can see right there, that's where they stick me. have. nine more months of every two weeks, I go in for an IV immunotherapy, which like goes after the cancer cells to target them and crush them. And then when that ends at the end of December, I can come on a Surf with Amiga's retreat, probably this winter, early next year. And then I have, I'm on a five years of an estrogen blocker. And so, All the things I just described have lots of different side effects and surfing has really helped me kind of manage them, I feel like. So that's part of my treatment is the surfing.
Holly: ⁓ that, I think as you started to tell that story, I was kind of blown away by like how quickly things went from like diagnosis to just like right into these heavy, heavy treatments. And then now it seems like it's like a little bit like of a slower process. How does that feel like mentally, emotionally, physically?
Danielle Cass: Yeah, because everything moves so fast right after my diagnosis. I have Kaiser Permanente and you know, there's a lot of people who complain about them, but when it comes to breast cancer, man, they are on it. Actually, they saved my life. This was caught with a routine mammogram. I did not feel a lump. So women listeners or anyone who has breasts. And if you're the right age, go get your mammogram. Don't blow that off. I kind of had blown it off a little bit last summer because we were having a lot of family adventures. And then finally I was like, okay, I got to go in. And so like the minute the diagnosis came in, they were like, okay, here's your surgery date and meet with your surgeon, meet with your plastic surgeon. And then right away it was like, hey, we're starting your, here's your oncologist. Because it all moved so fast, Holly, I kind of didn't really have a chance to. integrate what was going on. just was like, okay, you just like was on this like conveyor belt. and it has slowed down a little bit. Now I only have to go in every three weeks. I do have to go in regularly for echocardiograms because the ⁓ immunotherapy drug can cause heart damage. And I do have to go in for bone scans, bone density scans, because the estrogen blocker causes bone loss. But what I wanted to say was, like noticing the theme here, because it was all coming at me so fast in those first few weeks, I felt really overwhelmed. And the only time I felt like I got this was when I paddled out. Like I'd wake up in the middle of the night and be like, oh fuck, I've got cancer. I'd be like dealing with all these doctor's appointments and like friends come out of the woodwork to help you and it all felt really overwhelming. And when I paddled out, which I did basically every day twice a day, right up until the surgery, I was like, okay, I can do this. I can get through this. the only time I felt like I got this was when I paddled out. Like I'd wake up in the middle of the night and be like, oh fuck, I've got cancer. And when I paddled out, which I did basically every day twice a day, right up until the surgery, I was like, okay, I can do this. I can get through this.
Holly: That's so awesome to hear that surfing was given the green light. just it surprises me like maybe it shouldn't but it surprises me that doctors would be like no no surfing like that's good for you keep doing that. You think that there'd be like no infection and I don't know.
Danielle Cass: Yeah. I was really lucky I had a care team that could see how important it was. The minute I ⁓ went and met with the surgeon, she looked at me. I had small breasts to begin with. They were size B, but they fed my kids when they were babies, so that was adequate. The minute she looked at me, she's like, your tumor is so big, I'm going to have to take your entire left breast. You're not going to want to be asymmetrical, so I want to do double mastectomy. And I was like, great, do it. How soon can I get back in the water after surgery? I'm a surfer. And she said ⁓ probably eight weeks, but. maybe less, we can work together on that. And it was less because we put together a whole regimen to like kind of keep me that, know, when you get lymph nodes removed from your armpit ⁓ and cut into the muscle, it, affects this. And like the day after my surgery, she called me at home and we put together a plan of how every day I was going to keep my movement going. And then the deal was with the plastic surgeon, were both doing the surgery. As soon as the plastic surgeon said my incisions were healed enough, I could go in the wash. And so was like almost seven weeks. She gave me the green light and I like burst into tears. I was so happy. Cause every time I went to her, you know, starting at like five weeks, I was like, are they ready? Can I go in the water yet? And she's like, Nope. And then the oncologist, when I found it out, when I found out I needed 12 rounds of ⁓ chemotherapy, my first question was, can I surf during chemotherapy? And she said, well, yeah, we'll put in a port. It's under your skin and that will enable you to surf. And 72 hours after my first chemo session, I paddled out and I did confer with, you know, the internet and like posted on, I don't really recommend that, posted on the awesome women who serve Facebook group. said, looking for other surfers who have surfed right after a double mastectomy surgery and surfed through chemo. And I got like.
Holly: Yes.
Danielle Cass: Over a hundred women who responded with comments. And to be honest, Holly, not a lot were surfing through chemo because of what you said, fear of infection, bacteria, you know. ⁓ But I just kind of exercised common sense. you know, after a really heavy rain, I didn't paddle out for a day or two. If I had any open cuts, didn't paddle out. And then, you know, I hope you don't know, but when you go through chemo, you're really fatigued and. ⁓ Your stamina is not what it is. And I always paddle with my buddies. My surf crew is so amazing. They would like, some days they would wax my board, load my board, unload my board, like help me carry it to the water's edge. It's like, and then they feed me. was just, and then like, I get emotional because it's just like, I think the current, the undercurrent of my story and the undercurrent of what you do. with Surf with Amigas and like with this podcast is like the community is so strong. It's what keeps us paddling out on our best days and our worst days. ⁓ My community was amazing. Also, one really cool thing was all the surfers. ⁓ Right before my mastectomy, they had a breast farewell ritual here in Berkeley in the yard, almost 30 women in a circle, a harvest movement is rising. We had candles that one of the servers who ⁓ is a ceramicist made little candle holders and we lit the candles and everybody went around and made a wish for me. And like a lot of their wishes were about the ocean and like how they hoped during, cause at that point we didn't know if I'd be able to surf through chemo.
Holly: Yeah.
Danielle Cass: ⁓ And they were like, we hope you still get joy from the ocean even if you can't be in it. And we hope you learn to accept your new body and love it. it was really beautiful. And that really sustained me through those like almost seven weeks when I was landlocked. And also I would just go to the beach and I would watch my girlfriends paddle out. And then I'd host brunches, post, you know, second breakfast at the house.
Holly: that's it's so beautiful and it really like speaks to ⁓ I I feel your joy of being in the ocean and of Going surfing but I wonder because I think that ⁓ I most servers like they get it They're like, ⁓ you wanted to go surfing like every day and that makes you feel good Yeah, I get it You don't have to explain to me but but also the things that each one of us is looking for ⁓ You can be a little different. So for you ⁓ Like what is it about being out in the water or surfing that really felt so life-giving for you?
Danielle Cass: I'm really glad you asked that and I actually want to go back to when I learned to surf because that's an interesting story. I came to surfing really late in life, Holly. I was 52. I was going through menopause. I was about to have an empty nest. My two kids were leaving for college. ⁓ And I just had always like, just like, jealously salivated watching surfers. Like whenever we'd go to on a beach vacation, I would just be like, with my jaw open like. And I just never motivated. I did start doing triathlons when I was in my, when I turned 40, joined a master's swim team. And I think ⁓ it was a progression. ⁓ When COVID 2020 hit, they shut down my local public pool where I'm a master's team and I worked out swimming. So we started swimming in the San Francisco Bay. I bought a, ⁓ you know, what do they call blue 70 wetsuit for triathlons. ⁓ actually I had them already and I started swimming in the bay and I was terrified of open water swimming and I lived like I said in the East Bay where there were regular open water swims and I was like hell no and then like nowhere to swim with my swim team and it's fucking COVID 2020 and everyone's in my house home again on top of each other working and doing school and like swimming in the bay was just like I remember like paddling out you know by the San Francisco, you know, the Golden Gate Bridge and just be like, I love this. It was just like, it's so different from being like in Zoom world masked, like cut off. So I swam for a year with my group of women from the pool. And after a year, I was like, okay, I'm already putting on a wetsuit. I'm already dealing with like inclement weather and different currents and tides and waves, sharks. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna fucking learn to surf. So I.
Holly: Sharks!
Danielle Cass: booked a private lesson. ⁓ this was so funny. I wanted a woman instructor and I like hired a like women. found, you know, Nikki Clark who runs Marin Outdoor Adventure. And I was like, yeah, a women owned company. And I expect, and it was this dude who showed up and I was like, okay, no problem. And he pushed me into my first wave. I popped up right away after years of teaching yoga. I was like, yeah, rode it all the way in, turned around, paddled up to him. I'm like, are you available next weekend for another lesson?
Holly: ⁓ gosh.
Danielle Cass: And on my way home, I stopped at the surf store and bought a four three wetsuit and booties and just kept going at it.
Holly: What, real quick, like, what stopped you from surfing earlier? Like, you mentioned it, was it just not on your radar or were you living in a place where you didn't have access to it? Like, why wait until 52?
Danielle Cass: I think because I have always had a really intense career and traveled a ton. And so when I was home, I kind of was in the mom zone. Like I was in the Obama administration. I traveled to Africa and India and did a ton of work in DC. And I just was like one of those moms who I've always worked full time. I've always just been like grinding. So when I was home, I was just like baseball, little league, daughter playing water polo. Like I just was like feeling that need to compensate. I think you're a mom, you get it. So it was kind of when I launched them, I was like, okay, wait, now I can focus on me. And also my husband learned to golf. It was perfect. And all his college buddies, go golfing every weekend. So I was like, okay, we can have parallel play. Yeah, you go do 18 holes. I'm going to the beach. it just, those things coincided. ⁓ And menopause.
Holly: Thank
Danielle Cass: I was feeling invisible. It's hard to imagine right now looking at me bald, but like I had sort of identified as a beautiful woman and I was turning gray and becoming invisible and ⁓ surfing just like made me feel beautiful and strong and sexy and interesting. It's hard to imagine right now looking at me bald, but like ⁓ I had sort identified as a beautiful woman ⁓ and ⁓ I turning and becoming invisible ⁓ and ⁓ surfing like made me feel beautiful and strong and sexy and interesting. And I was just like, ⁓ I have this surf crew, And like, ⁓ I surf women. I've got like 30 women I surf with. like ⁓ texting, organizing retreats, and they ranged from 25 years old, I'm the eldest at 57, and that's a lie, someone is 60. And then there's my whole like elder crew of women in their seventies that I surf with who are just bad ass. So surfing made me feel like fuck menopause, I'm gonna own this.
Holly: I love that you say that, that surfing made you feel that because I feel like that is not common. I feel like most people as they're learning to surf, you know, it doesn't make them feel sexy and beautiful and visible. It's like, it's like, ⁓ my God, like I want to hide and I'm a beginner and my hair looks terrible and I'm the look at me in this horrible looking wetsuit that makes it look like I'm five pounds or more heavier than I actually am and like Like I just- I love the way that you describe it, but I don't- I don't know that I've ever heard it described that way, especially in the beginning phase.
Danielle Cass: Oh God, mean, yes, you can look at my Instagram. It's funny because I was looking through my Instagram the other day, going way back. And, I know I wanted to scrub any reference to my surf break in my Instagram. So that's what I did. So I went all the way back and I just saw like right away, I was like constantly posting selfies of me like with wet hair in my face. I just got out of the water. Cause it just, the ocean, you know, like I grew up in a family that came from Holocaust survivors. So they are like ruled by fear. They are risk averse. It was always like, I don't know, you know, a lot of Jewish refugees feel like you need to study and no one can ever take what's in your brain and like study, study, study. like, so they don't take risks physically. so surfing was also another way of me just kind of. rejecting the like negative thinking and negativity bias. just every time I paddled out, I could overcome my fears that were ingrained in me. Like, ⁓ I'm going to have a heart attack. I won't be strong enough to paddle back. And it made me feel so strong and brave. And ⁓ I loved that. And then I got to start going on these like surf trips to gorgeous places in Central America. I just, and Hawaii, my husband and I went to, no. I didn't go to, yeah, I took the family to Hawaii and I served in Hanalei before the kids woke up. It was awesome. so surfing gave me so much in those first five years that when I got the cancer diagnosis, there was no way I was going to give up surfing. Surfing became my way that I got in really good shape before the surgery. It became my focus while I was landlocked and recovering for seven weeks, like doing my exercises. I'm going to like, like, I'm going to get back out there and then When I started chemo, 72 hours after the first infusion, I paddled out and I just was like, it's hard to describe in words how good that felt. Like I was still me because I look different. I don't have breasts anymore. I'm flat. I don't have my hair. I kind of blew up my career, at least put it on hold. I went on six month leave from Microsoft and that like totally killed my momentum. it's like, Cancer took away my identity, but surfing gave me another identity. Like I was the woman who surfed through cancer. And then the reason I am talking to you and the reason I'm making reels on Instagram and writing articles for the inertia, and I've got one coming out in Pacific long border is. Women who have cancer, you do not need to be a surfer to feel this sense of empowerment. Talk to your oncologist. My oncologist said anybody going through cancer can use exercise and physical activity as a way to feel empowered again and have agency over their life. And you can just walk around the block and then stop. And then the next day do two blocks. Or if you're a runner, don't run for 45 minutes like you used to before cancer and treatment.
Holly: you
Danielle Cass: Run for 15 minutes, see how it feels, and the next day do 20. It's just moving your body, whether it's in the ocean or just around the block. It's honestly the best way to counteract the side effects of chemo from a mental health perspective, from fatigue, from appetite. Now granted, there are going to be people who listen to this and who are like, fuck you, that is not my experience. That was not my mom's experience. Like I was really, really lucky. But when you can, movement is key to just balancing all those things.
Holly: Yeah, that makes sense and I can't say because I knock on wood have not been through it. But that's great to hear that there is that because I feel like, most of the time when people receive diagnosis, the ones that I know that have received it, that's the fear is like, I'm not going to be able to do anything. So to hear you say, no, hey, you can, you just might have to dial it back is really encouraging.
Danielle Cass: Totally. having a great care team really helps. Having a huge support network, my husband, my sisters, my girlfriends, my friends. People came out of the woodwork and ⁓ wanted to walk with me on the days when I was only allowed to walk. ⁓ don't do it alone. Yeah.
Holly: Yeah, so how did you jump into that finding that community of the community you described sounds amazing. And I know that a lot of the stories that I've heard of women of any age getting into serving, but particularly those who do it a little later, sometimes it can be really hard to find that community.
Danielle Cass: Yeah, this is a great story. I'm so glad you brought that up. So. ⁓ Rewinding the clock, it's 2021, exactly five years ago, and I was getting the hang of surfing. And so I stopped with the lessons, but I go out alone to my surf break. And I remember one Friday morning before work, suiting up, and I saw these four women who clearly were in their late 60s and early 70s, suiting up, chatting, and paddling out together. And I was like, I want that. And... So every time I was in the lineup or in the parking lot and I'd see a woman, I would chat her up. Like the joke is in my phone, Holly, if you type in surf, there's like 40, like, you know, lawn, really cool surf woman, Nicole surf woman. So I just started collecting numbers. I would pick people up in the lineup, in the parking lot. And just started saying, Hey, do you want to surf together? And soon cultivated this incredible community. Also, I bring a lot of stoke. Like you can see a little bit on some of my reels of me, like.
Holly: I can see it right now. I can see it right now.
Danielle Cass: I was the one, like everywhere I go where it's Malibu First Point, because my daughter went to UCLA, so I would, know, Julie and Rell were awesome from Traveler Surf Club, hooking me up with a board every time. so I'd paddle out at Malibu First Point or I'd paddle out at Pacifica or, you know, various points in, you know, further up the coast. And I'm the one who's like cheering everybody on like, yeah, you got this. It's all you. Show me how it's done. I just bring a lot of stoke and people are drawn to that. then once I had my little community, I started organizing weekend retreats and tailgating breakfast in the parking lot, having our little second breakfast. bring my cook stove and ⁓ then trips to Central America, Mexico. So the community has been amazing.
Holly: Do you ever, I guess the way that you are describing yourself, like interacting with other surfers or, you know, paddling up to women and introducing yourselves in the parking lot or in the water and cheering for everybody in the water, like, that totally resonates. Like I try to act that way too. And I noticed that sometimes people are just like, what are you doing? Like, this is not, like, this is not what we're doing. Like weirdo alert, like this isn't the vibe, you know? And do you ever experience that or do you find most people are like, down to get involved in the joy.
Danielle Cass: Yeah, once at Sano, that was Santa no Frey. That was not the vibe. And I think I was just at the wrong point and Sano was my first time there. I think I should have been at Old Man's, but I was over here. But no, like Santa Cruz can be really, I have picked up so many awesome girlfriends to join my surf circle from Santa Cruz even, and that can be really a lot of localism. But that's question. No, I'm lucky because,
Holly: you
Danielle Cass: The breaks I go to, people are generally into that. Even with Sebeka. ⁓
Holly: I you.
Danielle Cass: And in Hanalei, when I surfed there, made amazing friends in the lineup. I just make friends. And my advice to some of my surf girlfriends when they're surfing at a new break on vacation is paddle up to a local, compliment them, be deferential, and make friends with them. Yeah. I thought you were.
Holly: Yeah, that's a good advice. And I like what you said about to selecting which break that you're that you're choosing, because I think it's true. Like there are breaks that, you know, each break has its own culture and there are breaks that that is like all good. And then there's other breaks that maybe not. And and yeah, I mean, in a perfect world, like we do an etiquette talk at Surf of the Meagas and our way of talking about it has shifted over the years. But the main message these days is like. you know, we get to decide like surf culture, you know, was sort of, it has evolved and it wasn't necessarily people that look like us that were really dictating how it evolved. But now that has changed because now there are a whole lot more of us. And by us, I mean women and other people that connect with that more feminine, like let's all take care of each other spirit. And so as our numbers have increased, then that changes surf culture. And then it really is up to us to decide how we want surf culture to continue to progress. So I love that people like you are out there like doing the thing.
Danielle Cass: ⁓ totally. ⁓ In fact, I love it when you get to a break and you paddle out and there's a couple men there and you're with your posse of. girlfriends and then pretty soon you're all just you look around it's like mostly women and just I love that vibe and you're everyone's so encouraging and they share love party waves. ⁓ It's a really great feeling and it's it's it speaks volumes for the next generation of ⁓ what to see what comes next in terms of lineup composition. was was lucky to become friends. So I made a little surf film and
Holly: For sure. Yeah.
Danielle Cass: at the end of 2021 called Learning to Surf at 52. And I was really lucky. got shown at the 2022 San Diego Surf Festival. And I shared it on Facebook and got connected with a woman named Diane Cardwell, who is a black surfer in Rockaway, former New York Times reporter. She wrote a book called Rockaway Surfing Headlong into New Life. And I was so enamored with her book. And she had come out during COVID and they hadn't had a book tour. So I said, come out to California, we'll do a book tour. So I partnered with Julian Rell from Traveler Surf Club and Diane came out and Mando. ⁓ is a board shaper at who I had served with them, in Mexico. And so I was able to do a couple of panel discussions at Traveler Surf Club with Diane and Mando talking about bringing more diversity and inclusivity to the lineup and why that's so important. And that was really awesome. And I continue to, be really psyched to support that. In fact, ⁓ next Saturday, ⁓ Chelsea, winning from, ⁓ textured waves. is doing organizing a paddle out for for preeclampsia and women's health in Santa Cruz and I'm super pumped to be taking part in that. ⁓ So I just yeah I'm so grateful to be do you ever think like how your life would have been different if you hadn't found surfing Holly or do you always have surfing?
Holly: Hahaha. ⁓ It's not a question that I spend a lot of time thinking about because it is so impossible to imagine because unlike you I actually Learned to surf as a teenager which at the time felt very late because there's a long time that I wanted to surf but I wasn't allowed to but then Starting at 14 like surfing has driven my life ever since so yeah, it's really hard to imagine What I would be doing if not for that ⁓
Danielle Cass: But you must have women who come on your retreats who are just like, what would I do without surfing? I I've said that a few times. I mean, guess I would have found some, I mean, I would have just like gotten even deeper into triathlons and open water swimming, but boy has it given me so much. And I wish I could get my kids to surf with me. I've got a 23 year old daughter and a 25 year old son. I'm so jealous. Cause I feel like I've seen you, you surf with your kids, right?
Holly: can't even begin to think. Yeah, my kids are they're little and they're in a phase where they enjoy surfing. My daughter, it's been a journey up and down me. She's 11. So we'll see. But like, you know, I wanted her to be one of those ones that just starts at two and just like keeps going. And it hasn't always gone that way. But we're in a good moment right now where she wants to surf. And we're actually leaving after this con after this conversation to go on a two week surf trip, because my my son has a couple of surf contests. And so it is our first like Travel we're traveling we're driving to other places. We're to know Sara and send to Teresa for surf contests and the whole family's going and we're all bringing boards and yeah, it's it's gonna be fun
Danielle Cass: ⁓ I'm so sorry if you see that's winning. You know, just like being able to share that experience with the rest of your family is winning.
Holly: Yeah and then it's interesting to be on the other side of it obviously like my dad drove me to surf contests and I you know I chose the places and I went to travel the world for surf contests and so it is really fun to now be doing that with my son but it's interesting because. I notice that I take on the nervousness that I like used to get and I have to like remind myself, wait, this isn't me. Like I just get to support. I don't have to hold this nervousness. I'm just gonna put this down and I just get to hang out and enjoy. Which is, it's, yeah, we'll see. This is, he's only, he's just beginning in his competitive, I mean, he's nine. So we're just, we're just beginning, but he's really excited about it.
Danielle Cass: ⁓ I'm so psyched. That's awesome. Well, I wish him luck. That's going to be a great adventure for sure.
Holly: Thank you. Well, you you mentioned that you made a film and, and, ⁓ we've talked about Instagram posts and the inertia articles. And like one thing that I was definitely like, I don't know what the right word is blown away by, I guess is how many different you're like, have, here's this film and here's this article and here's this other thing. And like, there's so much, like, do you have a journalist background or do you just, like, how did you get so involved or interested in like? promoting your story, sharing your story.
Danielle Cass: That's a great question, and thank you so much for asking that. ⁓ So yes, I began as a journalist. I grew up wanting to be a writer. I was going to be a foreign correspondent in Latin America crawling through the jungle and covering, guerrilla warfare and humanitarian crises. then I was a reporter for like six years, Oakland Tribune, Daily Newspaper after I graduated from journalism school. And then I moved over to public relations and kind of moved away from creative writing. And then I became this like innovation evangelist for technology. Then I got recruited by President Obama's White House of Office of Science and Technology Policy. And like my career just totally went a different direction. And all my creative storytelling and creative writing just kind of like, kind of was on hold. I am a compulsive journal writer and I have hundreds and hundreds of journals, but the storytelling and the sharing of the story that stopped. Then I got cancer. This is like one of the many gifts cancer gave me. Like one of them was six months off from work. Yes, it so awesome. And the other was it helped me find my voice again. So my daughter, who is 23, came out from New York for my surgery. And when she said goodbye to me, she's like, you need to blog, you need to write about what is happening. And so I started a little Substack, but I only shared it with friends and family. And that was my cathartic healing process. So on Tuesdays I had chemo, the toxic medicine went in and on Wednesdays the blog came out and that was like the golden medicine and like, clockwork every Wednesday. Like you guys can check it out, Substack Danielle writes a cancer wave, but it was, I kept it really private. I was not sharing it, but it was like so much. writing and photos and videos and guitar playing for my blog during the cancer journey. And then as my cancer leave was coming to an end, Holly, and I was going to have to go back to work, I was getting all these like positive feedback from people reading my blog. And I shared it with my breast cancer support group. And I shared it with some of my care team. And they're like, this is going to help women. You need to turn this into something. And so So I was like, it's a book. was like a book felt overwhelming, but like a magazine article I could do. So I wrote an article for the inertia. I wrote an article that's coming out in Pacific long border. And then my sister who is way into ad agency stuff, she's like, fuck a book. You need to start putting this on Instagram, like little 45 seconds snippets. And so then I was like, all right, I'm going to come go public with this. So I just right away got a GoPro, stuck it the end of my board, collaborated with a couple of friends who were videographers. And I just started like torrent of content as you saw. And the feedback's been amazing. It's been, I mean, like the messages I get from people who like around the world who see my, some of my videos and hear about this are just so I'm so moved. And so I'm just going to keep going with that. And it has felt so good to find my creative voice again. I love to write. love to make videos. love to edit and ⁓ you know. I'm back at work full time at Microsoft because I need to be to earn the money. still, you know, supporting our family, but I am not going to stop telling my story. I'm just going to keep finding new ways to do it and to involve people because it's so meaningful and it feels so good. And then, you know, then you get addicted like you wake up and like, how many followers do I have? Any new comments? It's kind of got to like watch that a little bit. Um, we'll have to get it.
Holly: Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, I've been, I am on Instagram, obviously, and like, I think part of it is just like entertainment and addiction like everybody else. And then also because, you know, running a business that, you know, a lot of our clients come from Instagram, there's also that like professional element of like watching like, you know, what posts are getting a lot of engagement and what engages me. think that mostly it's like, okay, I don't really, I think if I'm pulled into something, then that is a good indication of like what would be interesting to other people. And one thing that I have seen a lot of lately is like, there's a surfer that I won't name that I actually just had to stop following because it was irritating me so much because it felt so performative. She did this whole series on like, trying to get barreled and you know, she's like filming herself crying in the back of the truck because she didn't get barreled and like, you know, at first it kind of pulled me into this. I'm like, wow, here's this girl, this is beautiful, young, you know, fit girl filming herself crying and posting it on Instagram. And then at first I was like, ⁓ my gosh, like that's so like engaging. Look, she's being so authentic. She's being so real and she's showing like the true struggles that are involved in like getting. Barely knows how sometimes you come in from your session and you cry because it didn't go the way you wanted it to. Like, that's really relatable. But the more that I watched it, the more that it felt like so like made for Instagram. And then I read something about how like, you know, the trend of like the crying and or showing yourself sick or whatever on Instagram was like this big thing. And then I was just like, ⁓ my God, this is what she's doing. And so to see you who like, could be filming yourself crying, you know, but like in a way that, you know, I didn't go through all your posts, maybe there's some tears on there, but your content feels so much more like it's gonna be okay and like I'm gonna just, I'm gonna run or I'm gonna surf or whatever, like all the messages that you've shared so far, like it just feels so like authentic, whereas like so many other people would, could maybe like play up the struggle for the sake of That's what's cool now? I don't know. It's interesting.
Danielle Cass: I'm so glad you brought this up because it is really interesting when you decide to share personal vulnerable moments on Instagram, because it kind of messes with your head a little bit. Cause then you look at like, ⁓ that reel performed way better than that reel. And, and, and then I'm so one of the other gifts of having cancer and being on leave for six months was I got way into meditation. Finally, I'd always known all those people who was like, I'm going to meditate. And then like, I give it up, but I am in fact, I have, I'm going to tell you, I have a little widget on my phone. I've done 125 days in a row. and so I was feeling stressed the other day and I was like meditating on it and I realized, ⁓ my God, it's like the Instagram is kind of stressing me out. I'm starting to think like,
Holly: Nice.
Danielle Cass: watch the next reel be and like, I just want to surf without the camera for a while. So it, it's a fine balance, Holly, between wanting to inspire people with what I'm going through and also wanting to kind of protect my stoke and like my experience and not have to share it. ⁓ So, but right now it feels really good to connect with people and share my story. ⁓ And it's funny, I haven't filmed myself crying, but there is this thing in, I don't know if you ever read William Finnegan, Bill Finnegan's Barbarian Days, A Surfing Life. read it when it came out years before I was a surfer. And then when I became a surfer, I read it again. And do you remember where he talks about being in a tube, coming out, like he gets barreled and he gets on the sand and he just cries.
Holly: I mean, can you call yourself a surfer if you haven't read that book?
Danielle Cass: when I've had a really good session, and this was before I ever had cancer, like in the last five years, whenever I have a good session and I come back to the beach, I sit down a minute and I kind of weep out of gratitude. I'm just like so grateful for the ocean, so grateful that my body can do this, so grateful that I have access to the ocean because so many people don't. it's just, it kind of is this beautiful moment of where I say thanks to all those forces and I get a little teary. I've thought about filming that, but it feels really, really personal. And I'm not gonna film it now because you were just like,
Holly: Well, no, maybe you should! You want that next reel to go into the... to go viral, then that's the moment that you gotta film.
Danielle Cass: Yeah. Okay. The other thing, the dark side of being a creator is like, you do feel this pressure to keep posting. And so I don't know. So I'm telling all you people out there, if you're listening, you follow me. Like there may be days where I'm not going to post stuff and that's cause I'm just having my own experience and I haven't figured out if I want to share it. So tough.
Holly: No, but I mean I think anybody who has a certain, maybe anybody who has Instagram and actually cares or thinks about their, how many likes they get and I think that people that say that they don't care are probably lying because it is set up so that you care and it is a challenge. Like I have that with the kids. It's like how, you know, I have these cute little kids that are doing all these awesome things just like everybody else that has kids feels about their kids and You know, even like thinking about, we're going on this surf trip and my son is like all like, I want to get sponsored and how do I get sponsored? And it's like, well, you know, the reality is in this day, it's, it is about performance, but it's about content. And if you want to attract sponsors, then we got to create some content and then just being like, ⁓ he's too, like, I don't, I'm not ready to like put him into that. And we've been sort of casual. He has an Instagram with like 400 followers because we've been casually like, making some posts, but not making any effort to like make a viral reel or anything. But that thought does cross your mind. Like, ⁓ if we're going on this trip and like, should I do a little reel about, ⁓ my first big, you know, contest trip and my experience. And there is that balance of going, okay, how much does he get to be involved? Like, is this too young to push this on him? Should we just not do it at all? Like, and just try to find, try to find the right path. And like, that is the way that the world is going. Although I was reading something lately about, and I know you work in technology and I want to talk about that too, about how now like the younger kids are like putting their phones down. Like it's like actually cool to go with the flip phone and not have the smartphone. Like I'm not in that world at all, but when I saw that I was like, that is wonderful. I love that.
Danielle Cass: What, yeah, and I think I heard Apple's new phone is gonna be a flip phone. They're like going vintage old school, which is great. I just wanna say, if you do decide to do some reels on this two week trip, you said something that I thought was really. about how seeing your son in these competitions is bringing up like some of the nervousness that you felt. And I think that's really interesting. It really resonates for any parent out there as they kind of see their kid go out and do things in the world. I mean, isn't that what parenting is? It's like, you know, trying to relive the best parts of our own childhood and try and push down the parts that weren't that great. And so I just, think that's an interesting nuance should you decide to. ⁓
Holly: Okay
Danielle Cass: capture it with Instagram, but I see what you're thinking, definitely. And I'm reading this really interesting book right now called Yesteryear about an Instagram influencer woman, a trad wife, who puts her kids totally in her Instagram. then, well, I don't want to spoil it for readers, but it's interesting what happens to her. But yeah, it's called Yesteryear. Yeah. ⁓
Holly: What's it called? That sounds interesting.
Danielle Cass: We occasionally go on little backpack trips with my family, my kids, and my husband and my dog. And the best part is no phones. And it's so amazing to spend time with your young people when like no one has a phone. It's like, uh, um, it's like the old days. I mean, I think I'm much older than you, but like, I remember what it was like with no phones and it was kind of awesome to just be like out there. And that's what is so great. There's no phones.
Holly: Yeah, no, No phone. mean, except for everyone that are Apple Watches out there.
Danielle Cass: I, I, I deliberately don't have one of those, but, ⁓ good. Good on you. Yeah. Wait, have you ever seen someone like take a call out there or like check?
Holly: Me neither. I've seen people checking their watch, 100%. Definitely. I've seen amigas do it. And if not, even like responding to messages, I feel like there's so much like tracking, you know, like, ⁓ I've had this is my, you know, 12th wave or like the, you know, all the data, the, my heart rate is whatever, you know, like the speed I traveled on this wave, those kind of things. It's like any of those things, even if it's not like communicating with another human, it's like you're
Danielle Cass: ⁓
Holly: bringing yourself out of the moment of experience and like into like the data.
Danielle Cass: ⁓ so no shade to those folks. Let them be on their journey, but that is not what I want. And I'm really glad actually, not in retrospect, that I didn't have any data trackers when I was surfing during chemo, because that would have just been like, I would have probably wanted to know, okay, what's happening. It was just better to just like be in the moment and be like, yeah, I need to sit out a couple of waves. I'm just going to sit here at the back and let some sets go through. You're like, okay, now I'm ready. ⁓
Holly: Well, I read on your LinkedIn that maybe your most recent thing, and I don't know if it's what you're doing right now, involves AI ethics. And obviously that is a super hot topic right now. And I know that it changes. like, if we record this today and we put this out in a month from now, maybe the story will be different. But what do you have to say about what is going on right now and what you're trying to help? happen or not happen or I don't even know the language to use to ask the question but free prompt go for it.
Danielle Cass: Yeah. It's a great question. And I love that I've been able to be in this space ⁓ for some time in the responsible AI space. And when my role in it, Holly, is all about teaching engineering product teams when they're at the very beginning of designing, ⁓ you know, a new AI product to think like, okay, how might this go wrong? How can it be misused? How might it hurt people and have a plan for those failures so that they don't happen? And the space moves so fast, Holly. When I went out on leave, you know, at the beginning of cancer, like the big thing that I was working on like cross prompt injection attacks. And basically what that means is when you feed a prompt into your, you know, your chat, GBT or Claude, there are ways that ⁓ bad actors can like feed little secret prompts. to trick the AI to give, to do things that it shouldn't do, like to divulge secret information. So when I went on a leave, that was like one of the big hot things was like, how do we prevent cross prompt injection attack? So much has changed at work and in the field of generative AI. Now the new thing that I'm back is agents. As you're building AI agents, how do you make sure you're designing them, building them and deploying them in a way that is safe and secure that doesn't, you know, go wrong. And so it's been a bit of a scramble for me. coming off of six months off where I was completely offline, I did not do any work. ⁓ you know, where my body and my mind were mentally and physically taxed by the treatment and surgery, it's been a bit of a like, you know, like paddling over the big wave ⁓ to get my mojo back at work. And just in the last week and a half, like, I've got it. And so ⁓ it's, why is this important? So AI is here to stay. It just gets smarter and faster and taking over bigger areas of our lives. I'm sure you have friends who aren't, you know, surfing gurus who, you know, have day jobs where they're, whether it's in marketing or whether it's in writing or academia, where they're finding, you know, jobs are being ⁓ kind of outsourced a lot more to different AI. And so we, now we have to learn to live with it in a way that stays safe and secure. So my job and my mission and my team is to make sure that AI doesn't hurt anyone or anything. And that can sometimes be ⁓ antagonistic to tech companies because they just want to build, build, build and ship and ship and be the first one out there. it's sort of this like this pull and struggle like, okay, we need to go slow enough to make sure we're doing it right. So my job and my mission and my team is to make sure that AI doesn't hurt anyone or anything. And that can sometimes be ⁓ antagonistic to tech companies because they just want to build, build, build and ship and ship and be the first one out there. it's sort of this like this pull and struggle like, okay, we need to go slow enough to make sure we're doing it right. And that is why. ⁓ I went to Microsoft and have stayed at Microsoft because they have really led the way in creating sort of standards and rules and regulations like the EU ⁓ is regulating now. And we worked with them to be like, this is how we make sure our stuff is up to snuff. And they saw that that was sort of like ⁓ the default standard of how it should be. So, ⁓ but it's crazy and getting crazier. And I just read yesterday that our Our administration in DC wants to kind of change the way they restrict AI. So I'll need to read up on that and see what that means. So it's a fast moving pace ⁓ world for sure.
Holly: Well, you my kids are nine and 11 and we are making decisions about education. And, you know, I live in Costa Rica and, you know, I came from a family that really like prioritized education. I grew up in a culture that said that, you know, maybe like a lot of us that you go to, ⁓ if you're lucky enough, privileged enough to go to a nice high school and you take your AP classes and you get your straight A's and then you go to a good university and then. You you choose a major that's going to allow you to, you know, get a good job. You know, I, I didn't exactly, I chose a major, but I didn't go on and do the job and said I'd moved to Central America. But now I have kids that I'm having to make these decisions for. And it was my decision to live in the jungle. It might not be their decision. And so their dad and I have these conversations about like, okay, what, what, what is the right thing that I should be doing for their education to set them up for success in the world to come? And maybe that. path that we were told was the path. He also has two master's degrees. I have two master's degrees. His family all have PhDs. So we were like, okay, we're gonna move to this part of Costa Rica where we don't really wanna live, but that's where there is a nice, relatively nice private... Elementary school that could turn into a junior high and high school and now all of a sudden we're kind like wait a minute like this whole old model of like memorize these facts and then regurgitate them on the test and You know the things that we did like maybe that's not the way that they're gonna be most prepared for the world moving forward and it sounds like you have kids that are You know in college age. So what are you saying to your kids as far as like how they should be? preparing themselves for the new world and then even looking a generation behind, like my kids that are younger, like I know none of us has a crystal ball, but you being a little closer to what's happening than I am, like is there anything that you would say that would might be helpful?
Danielle Cass: Wow, that is such a good question. ⁓ Yeah, and so like on one hand, we like let the kids have phones when their friends got phones and we got them laptops and we didn't really like monitor the electronic usage. But one thing we really hammered early on all the way through was reading books. And I remember, and it's amazing because they both are still totally into books, not Kindles like a book book. My daughter just texted me over the weekend, she and her boyfriend went on a hiking trip in the Catskills and she texted me, I told her to read The Correspondent. It's this great book and I can't think of the author's name, but it's so good. And she texted me, she's like, finished it in two hours, had to find a bookstore to get another one, another book. So ⁓ we let them follow their journeys in terms of technology and AI, but we also really modeled and encouraged and stacked our home with books. And so I feel like that gave them a love of learning and reading that has served them well. Now, my son is in graduate school. My daughter has her first job after graduating from UCLA. It served them well in that they are really good at reading material and describing it, but also adept at all of the, you know, stuff that comes with AI. So it's kind of tricky. They weren't really into video games. So that was good. It was sort of like books. So to answer your question, I don't know. AI has changed everything and social media has changed everything in terms of education and young people. And it's such a crazy space. can I tell you what I'm worried about ⁓ is now that I'm back, like if everybody's using Gemini and Claude and co-pilot to create content and then to summarize content, people get them like, ⁓ where are humans like talking and learning from other? It's just like, we're here and there's the AI doing it. So. that troubles me a little bit because that stuff is good, but I think it's better if it's got a human touch. Like human in the loop is kind of like the mantra with everything with responsible AI and AI safety and security. like, need to like, how can we keep humans in the loop always?
Holly: Yeah, I mean, it seems like I have ⁓ been a slow late adopter. I have started using like the chatbots more to like do like a better Google search more like, I would have previously used Google for this, but now I'm just going to ask you because it's gives me a better answer, like a more complete answer, different format of the answer, I guess. But I have not started using it for all of these other tasks. And, you know, I probably should in some ways, but. But I have noticed that when, you there are people on our team that have been using it more than, than I am. like, you immediately know, like it's like, okay, I know what you use that for. And in some ways it feels like a shortcut. And in other ways it feels like maybe not as, it might've taken longer if we had done it ourselves. But like, I noticed like, I got ⁓ a, I don't know if you'd call it a press release or like we're working on a new retreat location. that's going to be a little different than what we what we have normally do. It's like a little bit outside of what we normally do, but I'm excited about it. It's a partnership with a different company. And so that company sent me a like a scope of what the retreat is that was very clearly done by the robot, you know, like just the formatting and the bullet points and like the way that it was crafted and the words that were used. And I know this person that put it together and it's like, that's not how they talk. I know that
Danielle Cass: Yeah.
Holly: the AI did this. And I found that as I was trying to take this, you know, multi-page PDF that was written by the robot and put it into our, like, location page in, like, my own words, that I found it really hard to do. Like, it was like, it didn't flow in the way that, like, if that person, or if I had written that information myself, like, I would have done it differently. And I had this moment where I was sitting there and I thought, which one is better? Like is the world going in the way of the AI because when reading it, it's like very clear and it's very concise and it's got the bullet points and the buzzwords and like all the things. But then me trying to take that into like paragraph form to put on the website. I had this like this question of like are people now getting more used to consuming the information in this format and my beautiful like paragraphs with the more flowery but like real terms that I'm coming up with out of my brain. Like, are they not gonna wanna read that because they prefer the bullet points and should I just copy and paste? And you know, I went with the paragraphs, but it made me stop and kind of ask that question.
Danielle Cass: You just very eloquently with that anecdote, zeroed in on my biggest gripe with all these AI assisted chat bot agents creating content is something human is lost. damn straight, your flowery Holly Beck voice is way better, always. And, you know, I came back and a colleague had put together a 12 page strategy doc about this big initiative that we're doing to. teach our customers and I was like, co-pilot wrote this and it just. Copilot is great, but I miss the human voice and the nuances. I have heard that you can give them better prompts to make it sound like you, but I have yet to experiment with that. So stay tuned. Who knows? But you just really, that is what is lost when... It's all created and we lose a little bit of that human flowery language. I miss that. So, and I've heard recruiters, young people who are like,
Holly: And I wonder if that's just us. you have some years on me potentially, but you know, I'm going to be 46 this year. So I'm not a, you know, a Gen Z or a Gen Alpha. Mike, guess what I wonder though is like that next generation that is growing up, like reading that and like the short attention span. Like I wanna just, I don't wanna read a paragraph, I just wanna see the bullet points of what am I getting in this experience? And that's what I wonder, if we're gonna end up in that direction or if the youth is gonna wanna throw away their phones and go back to reading the paragraphs.
Danielle Cass: This is what we have to wait and see. And by the way, I'm 57. But like, this is what we need to, I wonder, I think it's gonna be a little bit of both. And I think much the same way there's, know, Democrats and Republicans, red and blue, there may be this division where people who are kind of clinging to like analog, like language, the old way of writing and just like, here's your little bullet points, 45 second reel, that's all we got time for. I don't know. I don't know, but aren't you glad that while all that happens, we still can just keep paddling out and the waves are just, know, they're produced by the energy from storms and like those things don't change.
Holly: Yes, and that is a beautiful thing about surfing is that it really keeps us in that in that moment.
Danielle Cass: you're going through chemotherapy, ⁓ found it felt really good to get in the ocean and paddle out. just, cause you can kind of, ⁓ be days I be feeling sorry for myself or I had like metal mouth or everything tasted really like toxic and you just like, and just like. reset, just being in the ocean, catching a wave, getting smashed in the face with the water, just being with my friends. It just really was the antidote for me for all that like toxic sludge in my body.
Holly: And I think to take that metaphor, it's being in the ocean is the antidote for me for all the toxic sludge in the rest of the world. And the hope is that people like us, whether they be women or people that just like buy into that spirit, like we have to be able to take that energy out in the ocean so that the ocean, as it gets more crowded with other surfers, that that toxic sludge isn't then making its way into our surf experience. And so that is like all of our responsibilities to
Danielle Cass: Yeah.
Holly: be the good vibes and make community and cheer for each other no matter what in order to keep that.
Danielle Cass: ⁓ yeah. I that's why I think I tend to just keep going back to the same surf break, which, you know, I don't necessarily think it's making me a better surfer, but it's just such a chill community out there. And there's days that it's big and then it's days it's paltry, but like it's my community and there's no localism and everyone's got mellow vibes. A lot of stoke.
Holly: Awesome. All right, cool. Well, thank you.
Emma: Hey, Amigas, we've been putting a lot of effort into our online training platform and I want to make sure you know about it. SWA online is a membership based platform that is packed with surf tutorial videos categorized by experience level and board length. You can learn everything from how to wrap your longboard leash so it actually stays on to tips to troubleshoot backside tube riding and everything in between.
Holly: where are you in the world ⁓ did you serve today?
Danielle Cass: I wish I'm in Berkeley, California, and I was gonna surf, but I got in late last night picking up my, my eldest kid just got back from the East coast. He's in grad school. And so I thought we should bond this morning. So I listened to him play guitar, brought him breakfast. We took the dog for a walk. ⁓ So, but definitely planning to surf later this week and it's mother's day. So we're planning a big paddle out.
Holly: But this conversation that I just had with Danielle Cass, I feel like we could have talked for like three hours. She is a super engaging storyteller and we covered a range of topics. We started with her journey of finding out that she had cancer and the treatment that she went through and how surfing really kept her sane and also healthy, that her doctor supported her being a surfer. And I think she has a really powerful message there.
Emma: all taught by super knowledgeable female surf coaches. There's also surf specific yoga classes, workout programs, surf edits to get you frothy and interesting and inspiring stories from women in our circle. There's both a monthly and yearly membership option, but if you're not looking to add another one of those to your collection, there's also the option to buy individual courses and workout series like our six week.
Holly: Awesome. Yeah, I feel I'm in Costa Rica and I feel so disconnected from like holidays like that. Like you saying it's Mother's Day. I'm like, is it Mother's Day this weekend? OK, that's good to know. But I was before we connected, I was just kind of scrolling your Instagram and it seemed like the things that you just mentioned, like family and guitar playing feature. Very, very big in that. if you have been diagnosed with cancer or someone else in your life. But we don't just talk about cancer. We're also talking about community and community in surfing and how to find it, how to cultivate it, how learning to surf as a 50 year old woman made her feel beautiful and sexy and strong. It's not something I always hear from people. So it was really interesting to hear her explain her perspective on that.
Danielle Cass: Yeah, ⁓ and actually when I was going through cancer, I think it was like surfing, family, and guitar playing that were among the three things that really kept me going ⁓ and enabled me to have kind of a pretty awesome cancer experience, I gotta say. I feel really lucky.
Emma: Surf Trip Ready Workout Program, which is probably the most popular on the platform. If you've got a retreat coming up, you definitely want to check that one out. So head over to surfwithamigas.com and click on the Surf Tutorials and tab to check it all out ⁓ and I'll see you there.
Holly: And then finally we get into technology because she actually ⁓ works for Microsoft and in the ethics department focusing on AI. So it was a really interesting conversation. She is a awesome storyteller, very inspiring, amazing energy. And you're welcome for keeping it to an hour, but there was a lot more we could have talked about. And where are you in that process?
Danielle Cass: Yeah, thanks for asking. I was diagnosed with an aggressive form of breast cancer on September 5th, had my double mastectomy on October 13th, chose not to get reconstruction because they basically were like, you're a surfer, you'll be able to get out in the water way sooner without reconstruction. And there's a whole story about how I engaged like the Facebook Women Who Surf group around that. And then chemo started. few weeks after my recovery was considered done. So chemo started in December. I did 12 rounds of chemo and that ended, I guess at the end of February. And now I am a month and a half in to nine months of, still have my port in my chest. So you can see right there, that's where they stick me. have. nine more months of every two weeks, I go in for an IV immunotherapy, which like goes after the cancer cells to target them and crush them. And then when that ends at the end of December, I can come on a Surf with Amiga's retreat, probably this winter, early next year. And then I have, I'm on a five years of an estrogen blocker. And so, All the things I just described have lots of different side effects and surfing has really helped me kind of manage them, I feel like. So that's part of my treatment is the surfing.
Holly: ⁓ that, I think as you started to tell that story, I was kind of blown away by like how quickly things went from like diagnosis to just like right into these heavy, heavy treatments. And then now it seems like it's like a little bit like of a slower process. How does that feel like mentally, emotionally, physically?
Danielle Cass: Yeah, because everything moves so fast right after my diagnosis. I have Kaiser Permanente and you know, there's a lot of people who complain about them, but when it comes to breast cancer, man, they are on it. Actually, they saved my life. This was caught with a routine mammogram. I did not feel a lump. So women listeners or anyone who has breasts. And if you're the right age, go get your mammogram. Don't blow that off. I kind of had blown it off a little bit last summer because we were having a lot of family adventures. And then finally I was like, okay, I got to go in. And so like the minute the diagnosis came in, they were like, okay, here's your surgery date and meet with your surgeon, meet with your plastic surgeon. And then right away it was like, hey, we're starting your, here's your oncologist. Because it all moved so fast, Holly, I kind of didn't really have a chance to. integrate what was going on. just was like, okay, you just like was on this like conveyor belt. and it has slowed down a little bit. Now I only have to go in every three weeks. I do have to go in regularly for echocardiograms because the ⁓ immunotherapy drug can cause heart damage. And I do have to go in for bone scans, bone density scans, because the estrogen blocker causes bone loss. But what I wanted to say was, like noticing the theme here, because it was all coming at me so fast in those first few weeks, I felt really overwhelmed. And the only time I felt like I got this was when I paddled out. Like I'd wake up in the middle of the night and be like, oh fuck, I've got cancer. I'd be like dealing with all these doctor's appointments and like friends come out of the woodwork to help you and it all felt really overwhelming. And when I paddled out, which I did basically every day twice a day, right up until the surgery, I was like, okay, I can do this. I can get through this. the only time I felt like I got this was when I paddled out. Like I'd wake up in the middle of the night and be like, oh fuck, I've got cancer. And when I paddled out, which I did basically every day twice a day, right up until the surgery, I was like, okay, I can do this. I can get through this.
Holly: That's so awesome to hear that surfing was given the green light. just it surprises me like maybe it shouldn't but it surprises me that doctors would be like no no surfing like that's good for you keep doing that. You think that there'd be like no infection and I don't know.
Danielle Cass: Yeah. I was really lucky I had a care team that could see how important it was. The minute I ⁓ went and met with the surgeon, she looked at me. I had small breasts to begin with. They were size B, but they fed my kids when they were babies, so that was adequate. The minute she looked at me, she's like, your tumor is so big, I'm going to have to take your entire left breast. You're not going to want to be asymmetrical, so I want to do double mastectomy. And I was like, great, do it. How soon can I get back in the water after surgery? I'm a surfer. And she said ⁓ probably eight weeks, but. maybe less, we can work together on that. And it was less because we put together a whole regimen to like kind of keep me that, know, when you get lymph nodes removed from your armpit ⁓ and cut into the muscle, it, affects this. And like the day after my surgery, she called me at home and we put together a plan of how every day I was going to keep my movement going. And then the deal was with the plastic surgeon, were both doing the surgery. As soon as the plastic surgeon said my incisions were healed enough, I could go in the wash. And so was like almost seven weeks. She gave me the green light and I like burst into tears. I was so happy. Cause every time I went to her, you know, starting at like five weeks, I was like, are they ready? Can I go in the water yet? And she's like, Nope. And then the oncologist, when I found it out, when I found out I needed 12 rounds of ⁓ chemotherapy, my first question was, can I surf during chemotherapy? And she said, well, yeah, we'll put in a port. It's under your skin and that will enable you to surf. And 72 hours after my first chemo session, I paddled out and I did confer with, you know, the internet and like posted on, I don't really recommend that, posted on the awesome women who serve Facebook group. said, looking for other surfers who have surfed right after a double mastectomy surgery and surfed through chemo. And I got like.
Holly: Yes.
Danielle Cass: Over a hundred women who responded with comments. And to be honest, Holly, not a lot were surfing through chemo because of what you said, fear of infection, bacteria, you know. ⁓ But I just kind of exercised common sense. you know, after a really heavy rain, I didn't paddle out for a day or two. If I had any open cuts, didn't paddle out. And then, you know, I hope you don't know, but when you go through chemo, you're really fatigued and. ⁓ Your stamina is not what it is. And I always paddle with my buddies. My surf crew is so amazing. They would like, some days they would wax my board, load my board, unload my board, like help me carry it to the water's edge. It's like, and then they feed me. was just, and then like, I get emotional because it's just like, I think the current, the undercurrent of my story and the undercurrent of what you do. with Surf with Amigas and like with this podcast is like the community is so strong. It's what keeps us paddling out on our best days and our worst days. ⁓ My community was amazing. Also, one really cool thing was all the surfers. ⁓ Right before my mastectomy, they had a breast farewell ritual here in Berkeley in the yard, almost 30 women in a circle, a harvest movement is rising. We had candles that one of the servers who ⁓ is a ceramicist made little candle holders and we lit the candles and everybody went around and made a wish for me. And like a lot of their wishes were about the ocean and like how they hoped during, cause at that point we didn't know if I'd be able to surf through chemo.
Holly: Yeah.
Danielle Cass: ⁓ And they were like, we hope you still get joy from the ocean even if you can't be in it. And we hope you learn to accept your new body and love it. it was really beautiful. And that really sustained me through those like almost seven weeks when I was landlocked. And also I would just go to the beach and I would watch my girlfriends paddle out. And then I'd host brunches, post, you know, second breakfast at the house.
Holly: that's it's so beautiful and it really like speaks to ⁓ I I feel your joy of being in the ocean and of Going surfing but I wonder because I think that ⁓ I most servers like they get it They're like, ⁓ you wanted to go surfing like every day and that makes you feel good Yeah, I get it You don't have to explain to me but but also the things that each one of us is looking for ⁓ You can be a little different. So for you ⁓ Like what is it about being out in the water or surfing that really felt so life-giving for you?
Danielle Cass: I'm really glad you asked that and I actually want to go back to when I learned to surf because that's an interesting story. I came to surfing really late in life, Holly. I was 52. I was going through menopause. I was about to have an empty nest. My two kids were leaving for college. ⁓ And I just had always like, just like, jealously salivated watching surfers. Like whenever we'd go to on a beach vacation, I would just be like, with my jaw open like. And I just never motivated. I did start doing triathlons when I was in my, when I turned 40, joined a master's swim team. And I think ⁓ it was a progression. ⁓ When COVID 2020 hit, they shut down my local public pool where I'm a master's team and I worked out swimming. So we started swimming in the San Francisco Bay. I bought a, ⁓ you know, what do they call blue 70 wetsuit for triathlons. ⁓ actually I had them already and I started swimming in the bay and I was terrified of open water swimming and I lived like I said in the East Bay where there were regular open water swims and I was like hell no and then like nowhere to swim with my swim team and it's fucking COVID 2020 and everyone's in my house home again on top of each other working and doing school and like swimming in the bay was just like I remember like paddling out you know by the San Francisco, you know, the Golden Gate Bridge and just be like, I love this. It was just like, it's so different from being like in Zoom world masked, like cut off. So I swam for a year with my group of women from the pool. And after a year, I was like, okay, I'm already putting on a wetsuit. I'm already dealing with like inclement weather and different currents and tides and waves, sharks. And I'm gonna, I'm gonna fucking learn to surf. So I.
Holly: Sharks!
Danielle Cass: booked a private lesson. ⁓ this was so funny. I wanted a woman instructor and I like hired a like women. found, you know, Nikki Clark who runs Marin Outdoor Adventure. And I was like, yeah, a women owned company. And I expect, and it was this dude who showed up and I was like, okay, no problem. And he pushed me into my first wave. I popped up right away after years of teaching yoga. I was like, yeah, rode it all the way in, turned around, paddled up to him. I'm like, are you available next weekend for another lesson?
Holly: ⁓ gosh.
Danielle Cass: And on my way home, I stopped at the surf store and bought a four three wetsuit and booties and just kept going at it.
Holly: What, real quick, like, what stopped you from surfing earlier? Like, you mentioned it, was it just not on your radar or were you living in a place where you didn't have access to it? Like, why wait until 52?
Danielle Cass: I think because I have always had a really intense career and traveled a ton. And so when I was home, I kind of was in the mom zone. Like I was in the Obama administration. I traveled to Africa and India and did a ton of work in DC. And I just was like one of those moms who I've always worked full time. I've always just been like grinding. So when I was home, I was just like baseball, little league, daughter playing water polo. Like I just was like feeling that need to compensate. I think you're a mom, you get it. So it was kind of when I launched them, I was like, okay, wait, now I can focus on me. And also my husband learned to golf. It was perfect. And all his college buddies, go golfing every weekend. So I was like, okay, we can have parallel play. Yeah, you go do 18 holes. I'm going to the beach. it just, those things coincided. ⁓ And menopause.
Holly: Thank
Danielle Cass: I was feeling invisible. It's hard to imagine right now looking at me bald, but like I had sort of identified as a beautiful woman and I was turning gray and becoming invisible and ⁓ surfing just like made me feel beautiful and strong and sexy and interesting. It's hard to imagine right now looking at me bald, but like ⁓ I had sort identified as a beautiful woman ⁓ and ⁓ I turning and becoming invisible ⁓ and ⁓ surfing like made me feel beautiful and strong and sexy and interesting. And I was just like, ⁓ I have this surf crew, And like, ⁓ I surf women. I've got like 30 women I surf with. like ⁓ texting, organizing retreats, and they ranged from 25 years old, I'm the eldest at 57, and that's a lie, someone is 60. And then there's my whole like elder crew of women in their seventies that I surf with who are just bad ass. So surfing made me feel like fuck menopause, I'm gonna own this.
Holly: I love that you say that, that surfing made you feel that because I feel like that is not common. I feel like most people as they're learning to surf, you know, it doesn't make them feel sexy and beautiful and visible. It's like, it's like, ⁓ my God, like I want to hide and I'm a beginner and my hair looks terrible and I'm the look at me in this horrible looking wetsuit that makes it look like I'm five pounds or more heavier than I actually am and like Like I just- I love the way that you describe it, but I don't- I don't know that I've ever heard it described that way, especially in the beginning phase.
Danielle Cass: Oh God, mean, yes, you can look at my Instagram. It's funny because I was looking through my Instagram the other day, going way back. And, I know I wanted to scrub any reference to my surf break in my Instagram. So that's what I did. So I went all the way back and I just saw like right away, I was like constantly posting selfies of me like with wet hair in my face. I just got out of the water. Cause it just, the ocean, you know, like I grew up in a family that came from Holocaust survivors. So they are like ruled by fear. They are risk averse. It was always like, I don't know, you know, a lot of Jewish refugees feel like you need to study and no one can ever take what's in your brain and like study, study, study. like, so they don't take risks physically. so surfing was also another way of me just kind of. rejecting the like negative thinking and negativity bias. just every time I paddled out, I could overcome my fears that were ingrained in me. Like, ⁓ I'm going to have a heart attack. I won't be strong enough to paddle back. And it made me feel so strong and brave. And ⁓ I loved that. And then I got to start going on these like surf trips to gorgeous places in Central America. I just, and Hawaii, my husband and I went to, no. I didn't go to, yeah, I took the family to Hawaii and I served in Hanalei before the kids woke up. It was awesome. so surfing gave me so much in those first five years that when I got the cancer diagnosis, there was no way I was going to give up surfing. Surfing became my way that I got in really good shape before the surgery. It became my focus while I was landlocked and recovering for seven weeks, like doing my exercises. I'm going to like, like, I'm going to get back out there and then When I started chemo, 72 hours after the first infusion, I paddled out and I just was like, it's hard to describe in words how good that felt. Like I was still me because I look different. I don't have breasts anymore. I'm flat. I don't have my hair. I kind of blew up my career, at least put it on hold. I went on six month leave from Microsoft and that like totally killed my momentum. it's like, Cancer took away my identity, but surfing gave me another identity. Like I was the woman who surfed through cancer. And then the reason I am talking to you and the reason I'm making reels on Instagram and writing articles for the inertia, and I've got one coming out in Pacific long border is. Women who have cancer, you do not need to be a surfer to feel this sense of empowerment. Talk to your oncologist. My oncologist said anybody going through cancer can use exercise and physical activity as a way to feel empowered again and have agency over their life. And you can just walk around the block and then stop. And then the next day do two blocks. Or if you're a runner, don't run for 45 minutes like you used to before cancer and treatment.
Holly: you
Danielle Cass: Run for 15 minutes, see how it feels, and the next day do 20. It's just moving your body, whether it's in the ocean or just around the block. It's honestly the best way to counteract the side effects of chemo from a mental health perspective, from fatigue, from appetite. Now granted, there are going to be people who listen to this and who are like, fuck you, that is not my experience. That was not my mom's experience. Like I was really, really lucky. But when you can, movement is key to just balancing all those things.
Holly: Yeah, that makes sense and I can't say because I knock on wood have not been through it. But that's great to hear that there is that because I feel like, most of the time when people receive diagnosis, the ones that I know that have received it, that's the fear is like, I'm not going to be able to do anything. So to hear you say, no, hey, you can, you just might have to dial it back is really encouraging.
Danielle Cass: Totally. having a great care team really helps. Having a huge support network, my husband, my sisters, my girlfriends, my friends. People came out of the woodwork and ⁓ wanted to walk with me on the days when I was only allowed to walk. ⁓ don't do it alone. Yeah.
Holly: Yeah, so how did you jump into that finding that community of the community you described sounds amazing. And I know that a lot of the stories that I've heard of women of any age getting into serving, but particularly those who do it a little later, sometimes it can be really hard to find that community.
Danielle Cass: Yeah, this is a great story. I'm so glad you brought that up. So. ⁓ Rewinding the clock, it's 2021, exactly five years ago, and I was getting the hang of surfing. And so I stopped with the lessons, but I go out alone to my surf break. And I remember one Friday morning before work, suiting up, and I saw these four women who clearly were in their late 60s and early 70s, suiting up, chatting, and paddling out together. And I was like, I want that. And... So every time I was in the lineup or in the parking lot and I'd see a woman, I would chat her up. Like the joke is in my phone, Holly, if you type in surf, there's like 40, like, you know, lawn, really cool surf woman, Nicole surf woman. So I just started collecting numbers. I would pick people up in the lineup, in the parking lot. And just started saying, Hey, do you want to surf together? And soon cultivated this incredible community. Also, I bring a lot of stoke. Like you can see a little bit on some of my reels of me, like.
Holly: I can see it right now. I can see it right now.
Danielle Cass: I was the one, like everywhere I go where it's Malibu First Point, because my daughter went to UCLA, so I would, know, Julie and Rell were awesome from Traveler Surf Club, hooking me up with a board every time. so I'd paddle out at Malibu First Point or I'd paddle out at Pacifica or, you know, various points in, you know, further up the coast. And I'm the one who's like cheering everybody on like, yeah, you got this. It's all you. Show me how it's done. I just bring a lot of stoke and people are drawn to that. then once I had my little community, I started organizing weekend retreats and tailgating breakfast in the parking lot, having our little second breakfast. bring my cook stove and ⁓ then trips to Central America, Mexico. So the community has been amazing.
Holly: Do you ever, I guess the way that you are describing yourself, like interacting with other surfers or, you know, paddling up to women and introducing yourselves in the parking lot or in the water and cheering for everybody in the water, like, that totally resonates. Like I try to act that way too. And I noticed that sometimes people are just like, what are you doing? Like, this is not, like, this is not what we're doing. Like weirdo alert, like this isn't the vibe, you know? And do you ever experience that or do you find most people are like, down to get involved in the joy.
Danielle Cass: Yeah, once at Sano, that was Santa no Frey. That was not the vibe. And I think I was just at the wrong point and Sano was my first time there. I think I should have been at Old Man's, but I was over here. But no, like Santa Cruz can be really, I have picked up so many awesome girlfriends to join my surf circle from Santa Cruz even, and that can be really a lot of localism. But that's question. No, I'm lucky because,
Holly: you
Danielle Cass: The breaks I go to, people are generally into that. Even with Sebeka. ⁓
Holly: I you.
Danielle Cass: And in Hanalei, when I surfed there, made amazing friends in the lineup. I just make friends. And my advice to some of my surf girlfriends when they're surfing at a new break on vacation is paddle up to a local, compliment them, be deferential, and make friends with them. Yeah. I thought you were.
Holly: Yeah, that's a good advice. And I like what you said about to selecting which break that you're that you're choosing, because I think it's true. Like there are breaks that, you know, each break has its own culture and there are breaks that that is like all good. And then there's other breaks that maybe not. And and yeah, I mean, in a perfect world, like we do an etiquette talk at Surf of the Meagas and our way of talking about it has shifted over the years. But the main message these days is like. you know, we get to decide like surf culture, you know, was sort of, it has evolved and it wasn't necessarily people that look like us that were really dictating how it evolved. But now that has changed because now there are a whole lot more of us. And by us, I mean women and other people that connect with that more feminine, like let's all take care of each other spirit. And so as our numbers have increased, then that changes surf culture. And then it really is up to us to decide how we want surf culture to continue to progress. So I love that people like you are out there like doing the thing.
Danielle Cass: ⁓ totally. ⁓ In fact, I love it when you get to a break and you paddle out and there's a couple men there and you're with your posse of. girlfriends and then pretty soon you're all just you look around it's like mostly women and just I love that vibe and you're everyone's so encouraging and they share love party waves. ⁓ It's a really great feeling and it's it's it speaks volumes for the next generation of ⁓ what to see what comes next in terms of lineup composition. was was lucky to become friends. So I made a little surf film and
Holly: For sure. Yeah.
Danielle Cass: at the end of 2021 called Learning to Surf at 52. And I was really lucky. got shown at the 2022 San Diego Surf Festival. And I shared it on Facebook and got connected with a woman named Diane Cardwell, who is a black surfer in Rockaway, former New York Times reporter. She wrote a book called Rockaway Surfing Headlong into New Life. And I was so enamored with her book. And she had come out during COVID and they hadn't had a book tour. So I said, come out to California, we'll do a book tour. So I partnered with Julian Rell from Traveler Surf Club and Diane came out and Mando. ⁓ is a board shaper at who I had served with them, in Mexico. And so I was able to do a couple of panel discussions at Traveler Surf Club with Diane and Mando talking about bringing more diversity and inclusivity to the lineup and why that's so important. And that was really awesome. And I continue to, be really psyched to support that. In fact, ⁓ next Saturday, ⁓ Chelsea, winning from, ⁓ textured waves. is doing organizing a paddle out for for preeclampsia and women's health in Santa Cruz and I'm super pumped to be taking part in that. ⁓ So I just yeah I'm so grateful to be do you ever think like how your life would have been different if you hadn't found surfing Holly or do you always have surfing?
Holly: Hahaha. ⁓ It's not a question that I spend a lot of time thinking about because it is so impossible to imagine because unlike you I actually Learned to surf as a teenager which at the time felt very late because there's a long time that I wanted to surf but I wasn't allowed to but then Starting at 14 like surfing has driven my life ever since so yeah, it's really hard to imagine What I would be doing if not for that ⁓
Danielle Cass: But you must have women who come on your retreats who are just like, what would I do without surfing? I I've said that a few times. I mean, guess I would have found some, I mean, I would have just like gotten even deeper into triathlons and open water swimming, but boy has it given me so much. And I wish I could get my kids to surf with me. I've got a 23 year old daughter and a 25 year old son. I'm so jealous. Cause I feel like I've seen you, you surf with your kids, right?
Holly: can't even begin to think. Yeah, my kids are they're little and they're in a phase where they enjoy surfing. My daughter, it's been a journey up and down me. She's 11. So we'll see. But like, you know, I wanted her to be one of those ones that just starts at two and just like keeps going. And it hasn't always gone that way. But we're in a good moment right now where she wants to surf. And we're actually leaving after this con after this conversation to go on a two week surf trip, because my my son has a couple of surf contests. And so it is our first like Travel we're traveling we're driving to other places. We're to know Sara and send to Teresa for surf contests and the whole family's going and we're all bringing boards and yeah, it's it's gonna be fun
Danielle Cass: ⁓ I'm so sorry if you see that's winning. You know, just like being able to share that experience with the rest of your family is winning.
Holly: Yeah and then it's interesting to be on the other side of it obviously like my dad drove me to surf contests and I you know I chose the places and I went to travel the world for surf contests and so it is really fun to now be doing that with my son but it's interesting because. I notice that I take on the nervousness that I like used to get and I have to like remind myself, wait, this isn't me. Like I just get to support. I don't have to hold this nervousness. I'm just gonna put this down and I just get to hang out and enjoy. Which is, it's, yeah, we'll see. This is, he's only, he's just beginning in his competitive, I mean, he's nine. So we're just, we're just beginning, but he's really excited about it.
Danielle Cass: ⁓ I'm so psyched. That's awesome. Well, I wish him luck. That's going to be a great adventure for sure.
Holly: Thank you. Well, you you mentioned that you made a film and, and, ⁓ we've talked about Instagram posts and the inertia articles. And like one thing that I was definitely like, I don't know what the right word is blown away by, I guess is how many different you're like, have, here's this film and here's this article and here's this other thing. And like, there's so much, like, do you have a journalist background or do you just, like, how did you get so involved or interested in like? promoting your story, sharing your story.
Danielle Cass: That's a great question, and thank you so much for asking that. ⁓ So yes, I began as a journalist. I grew up wanting to be a writer. I was going to be a foreign correspondent in Latin America crawling through the jungle and covering, guerrilla warfare and humanitarian crises. then I was a reporter for like six years, Oakland Tribune, Daily Newspaper after I graduated from journalism school. And then I moved over to public relations and kind of moved away from creative writing. And then I became this like innovation evangelist for technology. Then I got recruited by President Obama's White House of Office of Science and Technology Policy. And like my career just totally went a different direction. And all my creative storytelling and creative writing just kind of like, kind of was on hold. I am a compulsive journal writer and I have hundreds and hundreds of journals, but the storytelling and the sharing of the story that stopped. Then I got cancer. This is like one of the many gifts cancer gave me. Like one of them was six months off from work. Yes, it so awesome. And the other was it helped me find my voice again. So my daughter, who is 23, came out from New York for my surgery. And when she said goodbye to me, she's like, you need to blog, you need to write about what is happening. And so I started a little Substack, but I only shared it with friends and family. And that was my cathartic healing process. So on Tuesdays I had chemo, the toxic medicine went in and on Wednesdays the blog came out and that was like the golden medicine and like, clockwork every Wednesday. Like you guys can check it out, Substack Danielle writes a cancer wave, but it was, I kept it really private. I was not sharing it, but it was like so much. writing and photos and videos and guitar playing for my blog during the cancer journey. And then as my cancer leave was coming to an end, Holly, and I was going to have to go back to work, I was getting all these like positive feedback from people reading my blog. And I shared it with my breast cancer support group. And I shared it with some of my care team. And they're like, this is going to help women. You need to turn this into something. And so So I was like, it's a book. was like a book felt overwhelming, but like a magazine article I could do. So I wrote an article for the inertia. I wrote an article that's coming out in Pacific long border. And then my sister who is way into ad agency stuff, she's like, fuck a book. You need to start putting this on Instagram, like little 45 seconds snippets. And so then I was like, all right, I'm going to come go public with this. So I just right away got a GoPro, stuck it the end of my board, collaborated with a couple of friends who were videographers. And I just started like torrent of content as you saw. And the feedback's been amazing. It's been, I mean, like the messages I get from people who like around the world who see my, some of my videos and hear about this are just so I'm so moved. And so I'm just going to keep going with that. And it has felt so good to find my creative voice again. I love to write. love to make videos. love to edit and ⁓ you know. I'm back at work full time at Microsoft because I need to be to earn the money. still, you know, supporting our family, but I am not going to stop telling my story. I'm just going to keep finding new ways to do it and to involve people because it's so meaningful and it feels so good. And then, you know, then you get addicted like you wake up and like, how many followers do I have? Any new comments? It's kind of got to like watch that a little bit. Um, we'll have to get it.
Holly: Yeah, it's interesting because, you know, I've been, I am on Instagram, obviously, and like, I think part of it is just like entertainment and addiction like everybody else. And then also because, you know, running a business that, you know, a lot of our clients come from Instagram, there's also that like professional element of like watching like, you know, what posts are getting a lot of engagement and what engages me. think that mostly it's like, okay, I don't really, I think if I'm pulled into something, then that is a good indication of like what would be interesting to other people. And one thing that I have seen a lot of lately is like, there's a surfer that I won't name that I actually just had to stop following because it was irritating me so much because it felt so performative. She did this whole series on like, trying to get barreled and you know, she's like filming herself crying in the back of the truck because she didn't get barreled and like, you know, at first it kind of pulled me into this. I'm like, wow, here's this girl, this is beautiful, young, you know, fit girl filming herself crying and posting it on Instagram. And then at first I was like, ⁓ my gosh, like that's so like engaging. Look, she's being so authentic. She's being so real and she's showing like the true struggles that are involved in like getting. Barely knows how sometimes you come in from your session and you cry because it didn't go the way you wanted it to. Like, that's really relatable. But the more that I watched it, the more that it felt like so like made for Instagram. And then I read something about how like, you know, the trend of like the crying and or showing yourself sick or whatever on Instagram was like this big thing. And then I was just like, ⁓ my God, this is what she's doing. And so to see you who like, could be filming yourself crying, you know, but like in a way that, you know, I didn't go through all your posts, maybe there's some tears on there, but your content feels so much more like it's gonna be okay and like I'm gonna just, I'm gonna run or I'm gonna surf or whatever, like all the messages that you've shared so far, like it just feels so like authentic, whereas like so many other people would, could maybe like play up the struggle for the sake of That's what's cool now? I don't know. It's interesting.
Danielle Cass: I'm so glad you brought this up because it is really interesting when you decide to share personal vulnerable moments on Instagram, because it kind of messes with your head a little bit. Cause then you look at like, ⁓ that reel performed way better than that reel. And, and, and then I'm so one of the other gifts of having cancer and being on leave for six months was I got way into meditation. Finally, I'd always known all those people who was like, I'm going to meditate. And then like, I give it up, but I am in fact, I have, I'm going to tell you, I have a little widget on my phone. I've done 125 days in a row. and so I was feeling stressed the other day and I was like meditating on it and I realized, ⁓ my God, it's like the Instagram is kind of stressing me out. I'm starting to think like,
Holly: Nice.
Danielle Cass: watch the next reel be and like, I just want to surf without the camera for a while. So it, it's a fine balance, Holly, between wanting to inspire people with what I'm going through and also wanting to kind of protect my stoke and like my experience and not have to share it. ⁓ So, but right now it feels really good to connect with people and share my story. ⁓ And it's funny, I haven't filmed myself crying, but there is this thing in, I don't know if you ever read William Finnegan, Bill Finnegan's Barbarian Days, A Surfing Life. read it when it came out years before I was a surfer. And then when I became a surfer, I read it again. And do you remember where he talks about being in a tube, coming out, like he gets barreled and he gets on the sand and he just cries.
Holly: I mean, can you call yourself a surfer if you haven't read that book?
Danielle Cass: when I've had a really good session, and this was before I ever had cancer, like in the last five years, whenever I have a good session and I come back to the beach, I sit down a minute and I kind of weep out of gratitude. I'm just like so grateful for the ocean, so grateful that my body can do this, so grateful that I have access to the ocean because so many people don't. it's just, it kind of is this beautiful moment of where I say thanks to all those forces and I get a little teary. I've thought about filming that, but it feels really, really personal. And I'm not gonna film it now because you were just like,
Holly: Well, no, maybe you should! You want that next reel to go into the... to go viral, then that's the moment that you gotta film.
Danielle Cass: Yeah. Okay. The other thing, the dark side of being a creator is like, you do feel this pressure to keep posting. And so I don't know. So I'm telling all you people out there, if you're listening, you follow me. Like there may be days where I'm not going to post stuff and that's cause I'm just having my own experience and I haven't figured out if I want to share it. So tough.
Holly: No, but I mean I think anybody who has a certain, maybe anybody who has Instagram and actually cares or thinks about their, how many likes they get and I think that people that say that they don't care are probably lying because it is set up so that you care and it is a challenge. Like I have that with the kids. It's like how, you know, I have these cute little kids that are doing all these awesome things just like everybody else that has kids feels about their kids and You know, even like thinking about, we're going on this surf trip and my son is like all like, I want to get sponsored and how do I get sponsored? And it's like, well, you know, the reality is in this day, it's, it is about performance, but it's about content. And if you want to attract sponsors, then we got to create some content and then just being like, ⁓ he's too, like, I don't, I'm not ready to like put him into that. And we've been sort of casual. He has an Instagram with like 400 followers because we've been casually like, making some posts, but not making any effort to like make a viral reel or anything. But that thought does cross your mind. Like, ⁓ if we're going on this trip and like, should I do a little reel about, ⁓ my first big, you know, contest trip and my experience. And there is that balance of going, okay, how much does he get to be involved? Like, is this too young to push this on him? Should we just not do it at all? Like, and just try to find, try to find the right path. And like, that is the way that the world is going. Although I was reading something lately about, and I know you work in technology and I want to talk about that too, about how now like the younger kids are like putting their phones down. Like it's like actually cool to go with the flip phone and not have the smartphone. Like I'm not in that world at all, but when I saw that I was like, that is wonderful. I love that.
Danielle Cass: What, yeah, and I think I heard Apple's new phone is gonna be a flip phone. They're like going vintage old school, which is great. I just wanna say, if you do decide to do some reels on this two week trip, you said something that I thought was really. about how seeing your son in these competitions is bringing up like some of the nervousness that you felt. And I think that's really interesting. It really resonates for any parent out there as they kind of see their kid go out and do things in the world. I mean, isn't that what parenting is? It's like, you know, trying to relive the best parts of our own childhood and try and push down the parts that weren't that great. And so I just, think that's an interesting nuance should you decide to. ⁓
Holly: Okay
Danielle Cass: capture it with Instagram, but I see what you're thinking, definitely. And I'm reading this really interesting book right now called Yesteryear about an Instagram influencer woman, a trad wife, who puts her kids totally in her Instagram. then, well, I don't want to spoil it for readers, but it's interesting what happens to her. But yeah, it's called Yesteryear. Yeah. ⁓
Holly: What's it called? That sounds interesting.
Danielle Cass: We occasionally go on little backpack trips with my family, my kids, and my husband and my dog. And the best part is no phones. And it's so amazing to spend time with your young people when like no one has a phone. It's like, uh, um, it's like the old days. I mean, I think I'm much older than you, but like, I remember what it was like with no phones and it was kind of awesome to just be like out there. And that's what is so great. There's no phones.
Holly: Yeah, no, No phone. mean, except for everyone that are Apple Watches out there.
Danielle Cass: I, I, I deliberately don't have one of those, but, ⁓ good. Good on you. Yeah. Wait, have you ever seen someone like take a call out there or like check?
Holly: Me neither. I've seen people checking their watch, 100%. Definitely. I've seen amigas do it. And if not, even like responding to messages, I feel like there's so much like tracking, you know, like, ⁓ I've had this is my, you know, 12th wave or like the, you know, all the data, the, my heart rate is whatever, you know, like the speed I traveled on this wave, those kind of things. It's like any of those things, even if it's not like communicating with another human, it's like you're
Danielle Cass: ⁓
Holly: bringing yourself out of the moment of experience and like into like the data.
Danielle Cass: ⁓ so no shade to those folks. Let them be on their journey, but that is not what I want. And I'm really glad actually, not in retrospect, that I didn't have any data trackers when I was surfing during chemo, because that would have just been like, I would have probably wanted to know, okay, what's happening. It was just better to just like be in the moment and be like, yeah, I need to sit out a couple of waves. I'm just going to sit here at the back and let some sets go through. You're like, okay, now I'm ready. ⁓
Holly: Well, I read on your LinkedIn that maybe your most recent thing, and I don't know if it's what you're doing right now, involves AI ethics. And obviously that is a super hot topic right now. And I know that it changes. like, if we record this today and we put this out in a month from now, maybe the story will be different. But what do you have to say about what is going on right now and what you're trying to help? happen or not happen or I don't even know the language to use to ask the question but free prompt go for it.
Danielle Cass: Yeah. It's a great question. And I love that I've been able to be in this space ⁓ for some time in the responsible AI space. And when my role in it, Holly, is all about teaching engineering product teams when they're at the very beginning of designing, ⁓ you know, a new AI product to think like, okay, how might this go wrong? How can it be misused? How might it hurt people and have a plan for those failures so that they don't happen? And the space moves so fast, Holly. When I went out on leave, you know, at the beginning of cancer, like the big thing that I was working on like cross prompt injection attacks. And basically what that means is when you feed a prompt into your, you know, your chat, GBT or Claude, there are ways that ⁓ bad actors can like feed little secret prompts. to trick the AI to give, to do things that it shouldn't do, like to divulge secret information. So when I went on a leave, that was like one of the big hot things was like, how do we prevent cross prompt injection attack? So much has changed at work and in the field of generative AI. Now the new thing that I'm back is agents. As you're building AI agents, how do you make sure you're designing them, building them and deploying them in a way that is safe and secure that doesn't, you know, go wrong. And so it's been a bit of a scramble for me. coming off of six months off where I was completely offline, I did not do any work. ⁓ you know, where my body and my mind were mentally and physically taxed by the treatment and surgery, it's been a bit of a like, you know, like paddling over the big wave ⁓ to get my mojo back at work. And just in the last week and a half, like, I've got it. And so ⁓ it's, why is this important? So AI is here to stay. It just gets smarter and faster and taking over bigger areas of our lives. I'm sure you have friends who aren't, you know, surfing gurus who, you know, have day jobs where they're, whether it's in marketing or whether it's in writing or academia, where they're finding, you know, jobs are being ⁓ kind of outsourced a lot more to different AI. And so we, now we have to learn to live with it in a way that stays safe and secure. So my job and my mission and my team is to make sure that AI doesn't hurt anyone or anything. And that can sometimes be ⁓ antagonistic to tech companies because they just want to build, build, build and ship and ship and be the first one out there. it's sort of this like this pull and struggle like, okay, we need to go slow enough to make sure we're doing it right. So my job and my mission and my team is to make sure that AI doesn't hurt anyone or anything. And that can sometimes be ⁓ antagonistic to tech companies because they just want to build, build, build and ship and ship and be the first one out there. it's sort of this like this pull and struggle like, okay, we need to go slow enough to make sure we're doing it right. And that is why. ⁓ I went to Microsoft and have stayed at Microsoft because they have really led the way in creating sort of standards and rules and regulations like the EU ⁓ is regulating now. And we worked with them to be like, this is how we make sure our stuff is up to snuff. And they saw that that was sort of like ⁓ the default standard of how it should be. So, ⁓ but it's crazy and getting crazier. And I just read yesterday that our Our administration in DC wants to kind of change the way they restrict AI. So I'll need to read up on that and see what that means. So it's a fast moving pace ⁓ world for sure.
Holly: Well, you my kids are nine and 11 and we are making decisions about education. And, you know, I live in Costa Rica and, you know, I came from a family that really like prioritized education. I grew up in a culture that said that, you know, maybe like a lot of us that you go to, ⁓ if you're lucky enough, privileged enough to go to a nice high school and you take your AP classes and you get your straight A's and then you go to a good university and then. You you choose a major that's going to allow you to, you know, get a good job. You know, I, I didn't exactly, I chose a major, but I didn't go on and do the job and said I'd moved to Central America. But now I have kids that I'm having to make these decisions for. And it was my decision to live in the jungle. It might not be their decision. And so their dad and I have these conversations about like, okay, what, what, what is the right thing that I should be doing for their education to set them up for success in the world to come? And maybe that. path that we were told was the path. He also has two master's degrees. I have two master's degrees. His family all have PhDs. So we were like, okay, we're gonna move to this part of Costa Rica where we don't really wanna live, but that's where there is a nice, relatively nice private... Elementary school that could turn into a junior high and high school and now all of a sudden we're kind like wait a minute like this whole old model of like memorize these facts and then regurgitate them on the test and You know the things that we did like maybe that's not the way that they're gonna be most prepared for the world moving forward and it sounds like you have kids that are You know in college age. So what are you saying to your kids as far as like how they should be? preparing themselves for the new world and then even looking a generation behind, like my kids that are younger, like I know none of us has a crystal ball, but you being a little closer to what's happening than I am, like is there anything that you would say that would might be helpful?
Danielle Cass: Wow, that is such a good question. ⁓ Yeah, and so like on one hand, we like let the kids have phones when their friends got phones and we got them laptops and we didn't really like monitor the electronic usage. But one thing we really hammered early on all the way through was reading books. And I remember, and it's amazing because they both are still totally into books, not Kindles like a book book. My daughter just texted me over the weekend, she and her boyfriend went on a hiking trip in the Catskills and she texted me, I told her to read The Correspondent. It's this great book and I can't think of the author's name, but it's so good. And she texted me, she's like, finished it in two hours, had to find a bookstore to get another one, another book. So ⁓ we let them follow their journeys in terms of technology and AI, but we also really modeled and encouraged and stacked our home with books. And so I feel like that gave them a love of learning and reading that has served them well. Now, my son is in graduate school. My daughter has her first job after graduating from UCLA. It served them well in that they are really good at reading material and describing it, but also adept at all of the, you know, stuff that comes with AI. So it's kind of tricky. They weren't really into video games. So that was good. It was sort of like books. So to answer your question, I don't know. AI has changed everything and social media has changed everything in terms of education and young people. And it's such a crazy space. can I tell you what I'm worried about ⁓ is now that I'm back, like if everybody's using Gemini and Claude and co-pilot to create content and then to summarize content, people get them like, ⁓ where are humans like talking and learning from other? It's just like, we're here and there's the AI doing it. So. that troubles me a little bit because that stuff is good, but I think it's better if it's got a human touch. Like human in the loop is kind of like the mantra with everything with responsible AI and AI safety and security. like, need to like, how can we keep humans in the loop always?
Holly: Yeah, I mean, it seems like I have ⁓ been a slow late adopter. I have started using like the chatbots more to like do like a better Google search more like, I would have previously used Google for this, but now I'm just going to ask you because it's gives me a better answer, like a more complete answer, different format of the answer, I guess. But I have not started using it for all of these other tasks. And, you know, I probably should in some ways, but. But I have noticed that when, you there are people on our team that have been using it more than, than I am. like, you immediately know, like it's like, okay, I know what you use that for. And in some ways it feels like a shortcut. And in other ways it feels like maybe not as, it might've taken longer if we had done it ourselves. But like, I noticed like, I got ⁓ a, I don't know if you'd call it a press release or like we're working on a new retreat location. that's going to be a little different than what we what we have normally do. It's like a little bit outside of what we normally do, but I'm excited about it. It's a partnership with a different company. And so that company sent me a like a scope of what the retreat is that was very clearly done by the robot, you know, like just the formatting and the bullet points and like the way that it was crafted and the words that were used. And I know this person that put it together and it's like, that's not how they talk. I know that
Danielle Cass: Yeah.
Holly: the AI did this. And I found that as I was trying to take this, you know, multi-page PDF that was written by the robot and put it into our, like, location page in, like, my own words, that I found it really hard to do. Like, it was like, it didn't flow in the way that, like, if that person, or if I had written that information myself, like, I would have done it differently. And I had this moment where I was sitting there and I thought, which one is better? Like is the world going in the way of the AI because when reading it, it's like very clear and it's very concise and it's got the bullet points and the buzzwords and like all the things. But then me trying to take that into like paragraph form to put on the website. I had this like this question of like are people now getting more used to consuming the information in this format and my beautiful like paragraphs with the more flowery but like real terms that I'm coming up with out of my brain. Like, are they not gonna wanna read that because they prefer the bullet points and should I just copy and paste? And you know, I went with the paragraphs, but it made me stop and kind of ask that question.
Danielle Cass: You just very eloquently with that anecdote, zeroed in on my biggest gripe with all these AI assisted chat bot agents creating content is something human is lost. damn straight, your flowery Holly Beck voice is way better, always. And, you know, I came back and a colleague had put together a 12 page strategy doc about this big initiative that we're doing to. teach our customers and I was like, co-pilot wrote this and it just. Copilot is great, but I miss the human voice and the nuances. I have heard that you can give them better prompts to make it sound like you, but I have yet to experiment with that. So stay tuned. Who knows? But you just really, that is what is lost when... It's all created and we lose a little bit of that human flowery language. I miss that. So, and I've heard recruiters, young people who are like,
Holly: And I wonder if that's just us. you have some years on me potentially, but you know, I'm going to be 46 this year. So I'm not a, you know, a Gen Z or a Gen Alpha. Mike, guess what I wonder though is like that next generation that is growing up, like reading that and like the short attention span. Like I wanna just, I don't wanna read a paragraph, I just wanna see the bullet points of what am I getting in this experience? And that's what I wonder, if we're gonna end up in that direction or if the youth is gonna wanna throw away their phones and go back to reading the paragraphs.
Danielle Cass: This is what we have to wait and see. And by the way, I'm 57. But like, this is what we need to, I wonder, I think it's gonna be a little bit of both. And I think much the same way there's, know, Democrats and Republicans, red and blue, there may be this division where people who are kind of clinging to like analog, like language, the old way of writing and just like, here's your little bullet points, 45 second reel, that's all we got time for. I don't know. I don't know, but aren't you glad that while all that happens, we still can just keep paddling out and the waves are just, know, they're produced by the energy from storms and like those things don't change.
Holly: Yes, and that is a beautiful thing about surfing is that it really keeps us in that in that moment.
Danielle Cass: you're going through chemotherapy, ⁓ found it felt really good to get in the ocean and paddle out. just, cause you can kind of, ⁓ be days I be feeling sorry for myself or I had like metal mouth or everything tasted really like toxic and you just like, and just like. reset, just being in the ocean, catching a wave, getting smashed in the face with the water, just being with my friends. It just really was the antidote for me for all that like toxic sludge in my body.
Holly: And I think to take that metaphor, it's being in the ocean is the antidote for me for all the toxic sludge in the rest of the world. And the hope is that people like us, whether they be women or people that just like buy into that spirit, like we have to be able to take that energy out in the ocean so that the ocean, as it gets more crowded with other surfers, that that toxic sludge isn't then making its way into our surf experience. And so that is like all of our responsibilities to
Danielle Cass: Yeah.
Holly: be the good vibes and make community and cheer for each other no matter what in order to keep that.
Danielle Cass: ⁓ yeah. I that's why I think I tend to just keep going back to the same surf break, which, you know, I don't necessarily think it's making me a better surfer, but it's just such a chill community out there. And there's days that it's big and then it's days it's paltry, but like it's my community and there's no localism and everyone's got mellow vibes. A lot of stoke.
Holly: Awesome. All right, cool. Well, thank you.
