Transcript
Speaker 1: For I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.
Speaker 2: You are listening to Scripture for your inner outcasts. Today is October 4th, 2026, the 27th Sunday in Ordinary Time. Like every Sunday, today is a joint episode featuring the co-founders of Souls and Hearts, our parent organization, doctor Jerry Crete and Doctor Peter Malinoski.
Speaker 1: Scripture for your inner outcast listeners. We are here doctor Jerry, Doctor Peter and we are talking vineyards today. Doctor Jerry. Nice. So for all you vintners out there, all you vineyard owners, winemakers and so forth, this is especially for you. No it's not.
Speaker 3: It's for those who know nothing about such things that will listen to us.
Speaker 1: Well, we've got some really interesting linkages in these in these readings. Like I, I never, you know, I heard the readings for the 27th Sunday in Ordinary Time since 1970 when the new lectionary came out. Um, but I've never put them together in the same way as today, like, wow. So, but I'm curious, like, what are you zeroing in on, dear doctor Jerry? What is grabbing your attention?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I am intrigued here. I mean, this, these readings are kind of intense. And, um, the idea of this vineyard that produces wild grapes. Mhm. Um, or in the psalm where it says, like, why have you broken down its walls? Or, you know, in the Gospels, the landowner whose servants are beaten and killed. Mhm. You know, and even the son who's thrown out and murdered, you know, and Paul saying, like, have no anxiety at all. Like so I could see where like, exiles would be like, freaked out by these readings. It doesn't sound comforting at all, but I actually think like, I'm hoping like, as we look closer, we'll see the opposite. Because, you know, I don't think our exiles are the wild grapes. If anything, maybe our exiles will relate to the fact that the father cares for us and that maybe our exiles are more closely related to Christ here. Right? Our exiles are the ones that God sometimes has sent, and they haven't been treated very well. And so, um, you know, maybe like, like the landowner's son who was actually murdered or the servants and then the son who had been murdered. And, and I think that our exiles often might relate to that. And that, in fact, we're on God's side and the exiles may not realize they're like, they're on God's side. You know, he loves them. You know the. Well, grapes are not the exiles, in my view. Um, even though the exiles may hear this and think that.
Speaker 1: Mhm. I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you said something's interesting and and I'm I'm curious. Are the exiles always on God's side? Are the firefighters always on God's side? Are the managers always on God's side? How do we get not on God's side, I guess is is kind of where I'm going to.
Speaker 3: I, you know, it's a great question. And I think it's always going to be it depends. Right. And all these situations. So I think that the, um, you know, sometimes our managers get to a place where they are so performance oriented, they're not actually seeing it through God's eyes. And certainly our firefighters are so protective that they don't see it through God's eyes at times, whereas our exiles don't believe they're on God's side. Yeah, but I think more often they are okay. Or at least God wants is longing for them. He's he's looking for them. He's wanting to bring them in and and they don't believe it.
Speaker 1: I don't know. If the wild grapes are actually the cultivated grapes. In other words, I, I look at the wild grapes as an invasive species coming over and taking over the vineyard. So in my vineyard, we've we've had, you know, the grapes that we planted and the grapes that we tended. But there's also wild grapes that have grown on.
Speaker 3: Okay, wait, wait, you have vineyards.
Speaker 1: I have a vineyard. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I did not know this. This is so cool. You actually have vineyards?
Speaker 1: I actually have a vineyard. Yes, a very small one. Yeah. Four vines. Um, and part of the reason why I have a vineyard is because I wanted to learn something about, like what these readings and other readings in, in the Scripture, what, what they mean and what would have been obvious to almost anybody, you know, back in the day when, um, when these, when these were written that they would know, you know, I wanted to find out more about that. So, um, so yeah, I've learned a lot about grapes. I'm not hugely successful in growing grapes, but we have grown grapes and we have eaten them. I don't grow them for winemaking because that's a whole nother, a whole nother, um, that's a whole nother endeavor.
Speaker 3: But you're saying you're not that successful. So but to me, I see in this reading, like the exiles thinking I was supposed to be this sweet grape, right? But instead I was a wild one. I disappointed the one who was tending me. Right? Like, I think that might be how the exile receives some of the reading. And I guess I wanted to say, I don't think that's the way it's meant to be received. I think, in fact, maybe it's in line with what you're saying. The wild grapes that are invasive, right? And they're actually harming the grapes that God actually cares about, which is you. Right. Which is the exile. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So grapes in natural cultivation don't compete well with like a lot of weeds and such. And so one of the things that was really striking me was just the care that we have to take care of in a vineyard in order to, in order for there to be fruit. And one of the things that really shocked me is that there's a lot of pruning that happens on a grape vine, if it's going to be fruitful. There's a lot you have to take away about 80% of the foliage, uh, in the, in the, in the down season. It's not just a little haircut. It's a massive reshaping of the vine or what you get is a lot of, uh, a lot of leaves and very few, um, very few grapes. You know, so, so I think a lot of times there's a way that we, we don't interpret, like when we're being pruned, how that's good for us. Like I think our managers are, are our firefighters and our excels too can be like, whoa, what's happening here? Uh, you know, we're being radically reshaped, you know, in order and, and, and not understand it or assume that the more leaves, you know, the, the more vine, the more grapes you're going to have. But it doesn't actually work that way in a vineyard. So, so I was sort of thinking about that too. Like, you know, I was thinking about Isaiah 55. You know, your ways are not my ways. Your thoughts are not my thoughts, says the Lord. You know, and, and you know, a lot of times a vine, a grape vine doesn't grow without care in a way that would maximize its potential. You know, so.
Speaker 3: So as the person who's tending to the vine, you're looking with care, like you care about your grapes and you want them to thrive. And so you're busy trying to like make sure the environment is okay for them. So what would happen if you thought if you realized, oh, the grape, you know, I know this is all an analogy, but if the grape was like, oh, is it my fault? Yeah. And you'd be saying, no, it's not your fault. Maybe it's my fault. I didn't get the weeds away fast enough or something. Right? Yeah. And I know it's not God's fault either, but like, still, like, I mean, God's perspective is about relationship. Like there's, there's a lament or a grief if the grape doesn't survive or doesn't do well, it's not a failure on the part of the grape, I guess is the point.
Speaker 1: I actually think that parts can make mistakes. Parts can flee from God, you know? So I'm not sure that I'm, um, willing to just say, well, exiles have no responsibility here because I think there is a part could could be like, I'm not going to approach God, I don't, I don't care. It's too dangerous. I don't think there's a lot of malice in exiles typically, you know, but I think there's a lot of fear and, uh, and so that's why I think they so benefit from the innermost self being a secure internal attachment figure to kind of help walk them closer to God. I think a lot of times the innermost selves can fail in that.
Speaker 3: But, but can I challenge you just a little bit? Because if we move to the Psalm, I think Psalm 80, right? And I'm not saying it's the fault of the the, the person tending to the vine like it's God's fault. But, but there's a space here for the exile, perhaps like in the song is certainly seen the psalmist to say, hey, God, where are you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3: The walls came down. I'm exposed. I'm being consumed in some way. You know, like, where are you? And, and I'm doing the best I can, which is a little different from just the well, you know, well, maybe it's not like maybe it is like the wild grapes that are attacking, but it's like, God, where are you? Once again, oh, Lord, look down from heaven and see me. Right. There's this cry to God.
Speaker 1: Especially when parts bear the consequences for decisions that they weren't a part of right within the person. You see what I'm saying? Because, you know, the way I read the Responsorial Psalm, the way that I'm engaging with with Psalm 80 is that, you know, the vineyard of the Lord is the house of Israel. But Israel had been notoriously unfaithful to the covenant for a long time. Right? But that doesn't mean that every in this case, grape, you know, is it has the same level of responsibility or something, right? Because, you know, the the, the whole people carried some of the experience of the corrections of God. Right. So I'm thinking about it in sort of in those lines. Um, you know, so, but you're right, it's tricky. And we're also like speaking, we're going macrocosm and microcosm here, you know, like, so we're, and we're even at three levels here because we're at the level of the whole Israelite community, then we're at the level of the individual Israelite. And then we're at the level of the parts of an individual Israelite, right? Like, so there's, you know, kind of three levels that we're trying to, to, to weave together here. So just know that this is speculative as, as listeners and we might be making some mistakes here. You know.
Speaker 3: We could be making mistakes and misinterpreting, but, you know, even to add complexity, then there's Paul, right? And he's saying have no anxiety at all. So in a way, like in Philippians, he's like now speaking to the to those grapes, if you want to see it that way. Like he's saying, don't worry. You know what I mean? Like he's, he, I don't think he's saying like, suppress your anxiety. Like, I think he's saying, bring it into relationship with God. He will be with you in it. So like you have like to me, you have the grapes in, you know, like almost complaining or like fearful. And then you've got, you know, the, in the Psalms, you've got the, you know, sense of anxiety. But then here he's saying, no, no, no, like, yes, I'm glad you brought it to me. We're in this together.
Speaker 1: Right? And he says, here, have no anxiety at all. At all, which could feel a little bit like, you know, sort of a very simplistic Bobby McFerrin, don't worry, be happy type of, uh, you know, uh, naivete. But he goes on to say, but in everything by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God. All right. So we're to bring it all to God, right? Just like, just like the psalmist was doing in Psalm 80, right? Bringing it to God. And so, you know, that's, that's, I think our responsibility across our parts is to, as a system, right? Come together. You know, our innermost self, our parts to help other parts, you know, to, to, to come closer to God and to just be really real about all of that. You know, so it's not just, you know, stop being anxious. You're being anxious. Stop it. You know, like, like it's not, it's not that kind of a, of a, of a, of a saying.
Speaker 3: Because I think there's a real threat, like even in the gospel, right? There's a, there's a real threat. The servants are, you know, harmed. And the son is murdered by the tenants. Oh, yeah. So in other words, I, in a way, I, I see it as him saying, like, you might not even survive as grapes, you know? You know, um, what gets rejected by human systems is one thing, but in God's hands, I'm going to take care of you. You know, this is the, you know, in Christ, I will take care of you even if you're rejected, even by family or by the, you know, I don't know, by members of the church or by a spouse or by even maybe even parts of yourself, I suppose. Um, you know, there's rejection is going to happen, but you know, God is still calling you up to, you know, he's willing to be with you through that. He's willing to rebuild through that. You're not alone in that. And I think ultimately it becomes a message of hope for our exiles, even though things are, in fact, difficult.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm kind of looking at this last line of the gospel where our Lord says, therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit. So I'm also thinking about like, the fruit isn't necessarily something within us exclusively. It's also like we're helping others to bear fruit. You know, I think there's a this, this sort of I'm seeing in here a reference to conversion to evangelization, to bringing other people into the kingdom. You know, so it's, it's also about connecting with other people and other people. And I'm thinking with their parts to add yet another level of complexity to this, you know, other people loving them in their exiles, you know, allowing their little internal grapes, right, to blossom and, and, and flourish by being able to reach out to them in love.
Speaker 3: No, I love that. And even Jesus saying, you know, even with violence, um, you know, or disappointment, what, what not in the world. He's promising that the rejected stone. He didn't say great, but the rejected stone becomes the cornerstone, right? So there's this, like, ultimate message of hope and the way that the these different readings are tied together to me is, is always brilliant, but it's particularly brilliant to me.
Speaker 2: Doctor and Doctor Peter have emailed reflections that you can get to your inbox every single Monday. Check out the description below to sign up for those.
Speaker 3: Our lady, our mother.
Speaker 1: Untier of knots.
Speaker 3: Pray for us.
Speaker 1: Saint Joseph.
Speaker 3: Pray for us.
Speaker 1: Saint John the Baptist.
Speaker 3: Pray for us.
Speaker 1: For I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit.
Speaker 2: You are listening to Scripture for your inner outcasts. Today is October 4th, 2026, the 27th Sunday in Ordinary Time. Like every Sunday, today is a joint episode featuring the co-founders of Souls and Hearts, our parent organization, doctor Jerry Crete and Doctor Peter Malinoski.
Speaker 1: Scripture for your inner outcast listeners. We are here doctor Jerry, Doctor Peter and we are talking vineyards today. Doctor Jerry. Nice. So for all you vintners out there, all you vineyard owners, winemakers and so forth, this is especially for you. No it's not.
Speaker 3: It's for those who know nothing about such things that will listen to us.
Speaker 1: Well, we've got some really interesting linkages in these in these readings. Like I, I never, you know, I heard the readings for the 27th Sunday in Ordinary Time since 1970 when the new lectionary came out. Um, but I've never put them together in the same way as today, like, wow. So, but I'm curious, like, what are you zeroing in on, dear doctor Jerry? What is grabbing your attention?
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I am intrigued here. I mean, this, these readings are kind of intense. And, um, the idea of this vineyard that produces wild grapes. Mhm. Um, or in the psalm where it says, like, why have you broken down its walls? Or, you know, in the Gospels, the landowner whose servants are beaten and killed. Mhm. You know, and even the son who's thrown out and murdered, you know, and Paul saying, like, have no anxiety at all. Like so I could see where like, exiles would be like, freaked out by these readings. It doesn't sound comforting at all, but I actually think like, I'm hoping like, as we look closer, we'll see the opposite. Because, you know, I don't think our exiles are the wild grapes. If anything, maybe our exiles will relate to the fact that the father cares for us and that maybe our exiles are more closely related to Christ here. Right? Our exiles are the ones that God sometimes has sent, and they haven't been treated very well. And so, um, you know, maybe like, like the landowner's son who was actually murdered or the servants and then the son who had been murdered. And, and I think that our exiles often might relate to that. And that, in fact, we're on God's side and the exiles may not realize they're like, they're on God's side. You know, he loves them. You know the. Well, grapes are not the exiles, in my view. Um, even though the exiles may hear this and think that.
Speaker 1: Mhm. I see what you're saying. I see what you're saying.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: So you said something's interesting and and I'm I'm curious. Are the exiles always on God's side? Are the firefighters always on God's side? Are the managers always on God's side? How do we get not on God's side, I guess is is kind of where I'm going to.
Speaker 3: I, you know, it's a great question. And I think it's always going to be it depends. Right. And all these situations. So I think that the, um, you know, sometimes our managers get to a place where they are so performance oriented, they're not actually seeing it through God's eyes. And certainly our firefighters are so protective that they don't see it through God's eyes at times, whereas our exiles don't believe they're on God's side. Yeah, but I think more often they are okay. Or at least God wants is longing for them. He's he's looking for them. He's wanting to bring them in and and they don't believe it.
Speaker 1: I don't know. If the wild grapes are actually the cultivated grapes. In other words, I, I look at the wild grapes as an invasive species coming over and taking over the vineyard. So in my vineyard, we've we've had, you know, the grapes that we planted and the grapes that we tended. But there's also wild grapes that have grown on.
Speaker 3: Okay, wait, wait, you have vineyards.
Speaker 1: I have a vineyard. Yeah.
Speaker 3: I did not know this. This is so cool. You actually have vineyards?
Speaker 1: I actually have a vineyard. Yes, a very small one. Yeah. Four vines. Um, and part of the reason why I have a vineyard is because I wanted to learn something about, like what these readings and other readings in, in the Scripture, what, what they mean and what would have been obvious to almost anybody, you know, back in the day when, um, when these, when these were written that they would know, you know, I wanted to find out more about that. So, um, so yeah, I've learned a lot about grapes. I'm not hugely successful in growing grapes, but we have grown grapes and we have eaten them. I don't grow them for winemaking because that's a whole nother, a whole nother, um, that's a whole nother endeavor.
Speaker 3: But you're saying you're not that successful. So but to me, I see in this reading, like the exiles thinking I was supposed to be this sweet grape, right? But instead I was a wild one. I disappointed the one who was tending me. Right? Like, I think that might be how the exile receives some of the reading. And I guess I wanted to say, I don't think that's the way it's meant to be received. I think, in fact, maybe it's in line with what you're saying. The wild grapes that are invasive, right? And they're actually harming the grapes that God actually cares about, which is you. Right. Which is the exile. Yeah.
Speaker 1: So grapes in natural cultivation don't compete well with like a lot of weeds and such. And so one of the things that was really striking me was just the care that we have to take care of in a vineyard in order to, in order for there to be fruit. And one of the things that really shocked me is that there's a lot of pruning that happens on a grape vine, if it's going to be fruitful. There's a lot you have to take away about 80% of the foliage, uh, in the, in the, in the down season. It's not just a little haircut. It's a massive reshaping of the vine or what you get is a lot of, uh, a lot of leaves and very few, um, very few grapes. You know, so, so I think a lot of times there's a way that we, we don't interpret, like when we're being pruned, how that's good for us. Like I think our managers are, are our firefighters and our excels too can be like, whoa, what's happening here? Uh, you know, we're being radically reshaped, you know, in order and, and, and not understand it or assume that the more leaves, you know, the, the more vine, the more grapes you're going to have. But it doesn't actually work that way in a vineyard. So, so I was sort of thinking about that too. Like, you know, I was thinking about Isaiah 55. You know, your ways are not my ways. Your thoughts are not my thoughts, says the Lord. You know, and, and you know, a lot of times a vine, a grape vine doesn't grow without care in a way that would maximize its potential. You know, so.
Speaker 3: So as the person who's tending to the vine, you're looking with care, like you care about your grapes and you want them to thrive. And so you're busy trying to like make sure the environment is okay for them. So what would happen if you thought if you realized, oh, the grape, you know, I know this is all an analogy, but if the grape was like, oh, is it my fault? Yeah. And you'd be saying, no, it's not your fault. Maybe it's my fault. I didn't get the weeds away fast enough or something. Right? Yeah. And I know it's not God's fault either, but like, still, like, I mean, God's perspective is about relationship. Like there's, there's a lament or a grief if the grape doesn't survive or doesn't do well, it's not a failure on the part of the grape, I guess is the point.
Speaker 1: I actually think that parts can make mistakes. Parts can flee from God, you know? So I'm not sure that I'm, um, willing to just say, well, exiles have no responsibility here because I think there is a part could could be like, I'm not going to approach God, I don't, I don't care. It's too dangerous. I don't think there's a lot of malice in exiles typically, you know, but I think there's a lot of fear and, uh, and so that's why I think they so benefit from the innermost self being a secure internal attachment figure to kind of help walk them closer to God. I think a lot of times the innermost selves can fail in that.
Speaker 3: But, but can I challenge you just a little bit? Because if we move to the Psalm, I think Psalm 80, right? And I'm not saying it's the fault of the the, the person tending to the vine like it's God's fault. But, but there's a space here for the exile, perhaps like in the song is certainly seen the psalmist to say, hey, God, where are you?
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely.
Speaker 3: The walls came down. I'm exposed. I'm being consumed in some way. You know, like, where are you? And, and I'm doing the best I can, which is a little different from just the well, you know, well, maybe it's not like maybe it is like the wild grapes that are attacking, but it's like, God, where are you? Once again, oh, Lord, look down from heaven and see me. Right. There's this cry to God.
Speaker 1: Especially when parts bear the consequences for decisions that they weren't a part of right within the person. You see what I'm saying? Because, you know, the way I read the Responsorial Psalm, the way that I'm engaging with with Psalm 80 is that, you know, the vineyard of the Lord is the house of Israel. But Israel had been notoriously unfaithful to the covenant for a long time. Right? But that doesn't mean that every in this case, grape, you know, is it has the same level of responsibility or something, right? Because, you know, the the, the whole people carried some of the experience of the corrections of God. Right. So I'm thinking about it in sort of in those lines. Um, you know, so, but you're right, it's tricky. And we're also like speaking, we're going macrocosm and microcosm here, you know, like, so we're, and we're even at three levels here because we're at the level of the whole Israelite community, then we're at the level of the individual Israelite. And then we're at the level of the parts of an individual Israelite, right? Like, so there's, you know, kind of three levels that we're trying to, to, to weave together here. So just know that this is speculative as, as listeners and we might be making some mistakes here. You know.
Speaker 3: We could be making mistakes and misinterpreting, but, you know, even to add complexity, then there's Paul, right? And he's saying have no anxiety at all. So in a way, like in Philippians, he's like now speaking to the to those grapes, if you want to see it that way. Like he's saying, don't worry. You know what I mean? Like he's, he, I don't think he's saying like, suppress your anxiety. Like, I think he's saying, bring it into relationship with God. He will be with you in it. So like you have like to me, you have the grapes in, you know, like almost complaining or like fearful. And then you've got, you know, the, in the Psalms, you've got the, you know, sense of anxiety. But then here he's saying, no, no, no, like, yes, I'm glad you brought it to me. We're in this together.
Speaker 1: Right? And he says, here, have no anxiety at all. At all, which could feel a little bit like, you know, sort of a very simplistic Bobby McFerrin, don't worry, be happy type of, uh, you know, uh, naivete. But he goes on to say, but in everything by prayer and petition, with thanksgiving, make your requests known to God. All right. So we're to bring it all to God, right? Just like, just like the psalmist was doing in Psalm 80, right? Bringing it to God. And so, you know, that's, that's, I think our responsibility across our parts is to, as a system, right? Come together. You know, our innermost self, our parts to help other parts, you know, to, to, to come closer to God and to just be really real about all of that. You know, so it's not just, you know, stop being anxious. You're being anxious. Stop it. You know, like, like it's not, it's not that kind of a, of a, of a, of a saying.
Speaker 3: Because I think there's a real threat, like even in the gospel, right? There's a, there's a real threat. The servants are, you know, harmed. And the son is murdered by the tenants. Oh, yeah. So in other words, I, in a way, I, I see it as him saying, like, you might not even survive as grapes, you know? You know, um, what gets rejected by human systems is one thing, but in God's hands, I'm going to take care of you. You know, this is the, you know, in Christ, I will take care of you even if you're rejected, even by family or by the, you know, I don't know, by members of the church or by a spouse or by even maybe even parts of yourself, I suppose. Um, you know, there's rejection is going to happen, but you know, God is still calling you up to, you know, he's willing to be with you through that. He's willing to rebuild through that. You're not alone in that. And I think ultimately it becomes a message of hope for our exiles, even though things are, in fact, difficult.
Speaker 1: Well, I'm kind of looking at this last line of the gospel where our Lord says, therefore I say to you, the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people that will produce its fruit. So I'm also thinking about like, the fruit isn't necessarily something within us exclusively. It's also like we're helping others to bear fruit. You know, I think there's a this, this sort of I'm seeing in here a reference to conversion to evangelization, to bringing other people into the kingdom. You know, so it's, it's also about connecting with other people and other people. And I'm thinking with their parts to add yet another level of complexity to this, you know, other people loving them in their exiles, you know, allowing their little internal grapes, right, to blossom and, and, and flourish by being able to reach out to them in love.
Speaker 3: No, I love that. And even Jesus saying, you know, even with violence, um, you know, or disappointment, what, what not in the world. He's promising that the rejected stone. He didn't say great, but the rejected stone becomes the cornerstone, right? So there's this, like, ultimate message of hope and the way that the these different readings are tied together to me is, is always brilliant, but it's particularly brilliant to me.
Speaker 2: Doctor and Doctor Peter have emailed reflections that you can get to your inbox every single Monday. Check out the description below to sign up for those.
Speaker 3: Our lady, our mother.
Speaker 1: Untier of knots.
Speaker 3: Pray for us.
Speaker 1: Saint Joseph.
Speaker 3: Pray for us.
Speaker 1: Saint John the Baptist.
Speaker 3: Pray for us.
