Sunscreen: Could It Be Toxic??

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Wait, so the melanocytes, the cells that make the melanin,
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then the melanin is like sunscreen for your DNA, like
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natural sunscreen for your DNA? Yeah.
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So like this melanin, it's directly responding to the sun.
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It's moving up there and it's wanting to protect you.
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from those UV rays and, in essence, protects you from
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the DNA damage that could cause skin cancer.
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Wow, that's so cool.
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Hi, I'm Wendy Zuckerman, and this is Science Versus. Today
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on the show, we're pitting facts against frying in the sun.
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Science Versus.
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We're talking about sunscreen. All over social media, people are
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telling you to ditch your sunscreen. They say that it's
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doing us more harm than good. Like, some say that
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if you really want to be healthy, you shouldn't be
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blocking out the sun's gorgeous rays at all.
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You should be going outside and letting the.
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Sun help us make that sweet, sweet vitamin D.
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No sunscreen, no fear.
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Just me and the light my body was begging for.
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Vitamin D is free, it's powerful, and it's meant for us.
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Others claim that sunscreen itself is straight-up toxic, that it
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seeps dangerous chemicals into our blood and might even be
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messing up our hormones. I'm going to show you what
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they're putting in our sunscreen, and it's going to make
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you just as mad as it's made me. Most people
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don't realize how toxic our sunscreens are.
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Two hours after applying it to the skin.
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These toxic environmental estrogens can actually be detected in the blood.
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And this is.
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Exactly why I stopped using toxic sunscreens from the grocery store.
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But of course, a lot of us wear sunscreen to
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protect our skin from skin cancer. The problem is that
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now I'm hearing of scientific studies that apparently show sunscreen
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could be causing cancer.
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What is going on here?
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When they compare sunscreen users to non-sunscreen users, the sunscreen
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users faced increased risks of all the major skin cancers.
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We use more of this chemical sunscreen than we ever
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have before.
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Skin cancer rate is increasing.
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You've got to just use your head for a minute.
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All of this has led people to say, stop buying sunscreen.
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Or online, you can even find people giving recipes on
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how to make your own sunscreen at home.
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This is your answer.
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Get that bullshit out of your life and start using
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a really good quality sunscreen.
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So what is going on with sunscreen? Should we use
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it or not?
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Is it making us vitamin D deficient and leaching toxins
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in our blood? And if we still want to use it,
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are some sunscreens safer than others?
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When it comes to sunscreen, there's a lot of.
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Most people don't realise how toxic our sunscreens are.
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But then there's science. Science vs.
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Sunscreen is coming up just after the break. If you
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have a friend who's worried about sunscreen, maybe share them
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this episode.
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Welcome back.
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Today on the show, we are looking into whether sunscreens
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are dangerous.
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Should we be slapping them on our bodies?
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To tell us all about it is producer at Science Versus,
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Michelle Dang.
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Hey, Wendy.
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Michelle, this question of whether sunscreen is safe has been
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in the zeitgeist for so long.
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I feel like you've wanted to do this episode for ages.
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Yeah, I think I pitched it like seven years ago
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when I was an intern.
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Wow, no, did you really?
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So it's taken us a while, but we're coming back
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to it.
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I know.
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And, you know, as you've been sort of getting whispers
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of the science that you've been finding, and it's making
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me wonder, you know, have I just been... swallowed by
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big sunscreen, by the sunscreen propaganda machine.
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It's making me question everything I think I know about sunscreen.
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I do always hear online Australians talking about Sid the Seagull?
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The Seagull? What, you got a problem with Sid now?
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The Seagull? No, tell me more.
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But the uninitiated Sid the Seagull was this seagull that
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for decades has taught Australians how you got to put
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sunscreen on and more broadly protect yourself from the sun.
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And Sid would tell us, and he says, you've got
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to slip, slop, slap.
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Slip, slop, slap.
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It sounds like a breeze when you say it like that.
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Slip, slop.
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So you slip on a T-shirt, you slap on a
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hat and you slop on some sunscreen.
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I thought it was all like slip, slop, slop, sunscreen.
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Yeah, it's a whole array of things you've got to do.
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Have I been lied to all my life?
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I mean, presumably sunscreen is protecting my skin, but now
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we're sort of hearing that it's also getting into my body,
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these chemicals from the sunscreen getting into my body, causing damage.
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So what's going on? Where do we begin?
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Yeah, let's start there about all these claims about sunscreen
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being toxic for us. And so people will often point
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to all these active ingredients that we find in sunscreens.
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And there is this one ingredient in particular that I
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want to focus on called oxybenzone.
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This one people are particularly worked up about.
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Oxybenzone. Okay.
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What is it actually doing in the sunscreen? Why is
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it there to begin with?
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So it's one of the ingredients that's there to literally
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help filter out the sun.
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Right.
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The UV rays.
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Right.
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And why are people worried about it?
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Yeah, so some of these worries about oxybenzone go back years,
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even decades. So for example, I want to tell you
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about this one study that came out in 2001 that
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looked at rats and oxybenzone.
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Okay.
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So in this study, scientists took a bunch of young
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female rats and exposed them to the chemical. And what
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they found was that it made their uteruses grow bigger
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and not in a good way.
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Okay.
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So this suggested.
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That chemicals like oxybenzone were acting like estrogen or essentially
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hormone disruptors.
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Oh.
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This really freaked people out.
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It's been a very widely cited study.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, I'll bet. But of course, it's just, you know, rat.
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I mean.
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Yeah, it's not just that it's just in a rat.
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There's a couple other things that were going on that
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don't mimic how we as humans use sunscreen, for example.
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Uh-huh.
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They made the rats eat the sunscreen chemicals. They basically
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spiked their rat chow with it.
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Uh-huh. I was going to ask, did they put it
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on their fur? But so they were eating the chemicals.
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That's not how we do it.
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And then how much of the stuff were they getting
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in their bodies? Is it at all related to what
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I might get if I absorb it through my skin?
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That's the next point.
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They gave them a lot of it. So I talked
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about this with Dr.
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Brandon Adler from Keck Medicine of the University of Southern California.
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And he told me that it would take a long
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time to get this level of.
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Exposure that the rats did.
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Looking at humans, it was estimated that it would take
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anywhere between about 35 and 277 years of use. of
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oxybenzone-containing sunscreen.
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Oh my gosh.
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Anywhere between 35 and 277 years. And the shortest scenario
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would require applying sunscreen to absolutely every part of our bodies.
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Right.
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So this is a classic case of the dose makes
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the poison. And Brandon's basically saying these unrealistic levels of
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these chemicals. Even for me, avid sunscreen user, I wouldn't
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be getting this much. sunscreen into my system in such
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a short space of time, right?
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Exactly.
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Yeah. Yeah.
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Okay.
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And it's a study in rats. So do we have
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anything in people that's more.
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Realistic that can help us understand if these chemicals are dangerous? Right.
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Yeah.
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So to get to the bottom of this, I want
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to tell you about these couple of FDA studies that
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came out right before the pandemic. And they did what
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are called maximum usage trials, where they bring people into
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the lab And over multiple days, they slather sunscreen.
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All over their bodies. Sounds fun. It's like my dream.
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Here's Brandon.
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So sunscreen was applied to 75% of the body's surface area.
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If you look at a chart of what that means,
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that is a lot of your body. That's essentially everywhere
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besides maybe your bikini zone.
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How many weeks were they getting that sunscreen on for?
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Four or five days total in the lab.
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And then what did the researchers do next?
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So then they measured their blood throughout that study, but
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also 21 days afterward. And they looked to see how
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much of this chemical was showing up in the blood.
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And we did see oxybenzone there. And it was in
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a high enough level that it passed this FDA threshold.
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And this is something that people online really love to
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point out.
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Now, it's very easy for this to lead to headlines, right?
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Sunscreens are absorbed into the body, and then you very,
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very quickly get words like toxic and dangerous that get
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thrown out.
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I mean, yeah, it doesn't sound great.
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That our body is absorbing these and 21 days later
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they're found in our blood at all.
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I don't love. I know, it's kind of icky.
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And then at some increased threshold level, obviously our.
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Scientist friend doesn't sound concerned.
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Oh, so like those FDA studies, that threshold was very misleading.
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People kind of took that and ran with it and
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said like, hey, look, sunscreen is toxic.
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Yeah, yeah.
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But the threshold in those studies didn't actually suggest danger
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at all. In fact, the FDA concluded that study, quote,
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these findings do not indicate that individuals should refrain from
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the use of sunscreen, end quote.
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So if they were at very high levels, toxic, dangerous levels.
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what would you start to see?
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Yeah, so I found this systematic review of around 30 studies.
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And they looked at, like, studies are kind of trying
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to find out, like, does oxybenzone actually affect our hormone levels?
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Okay.
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And what they concluded was that there's no clear evidence
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in the literature that oxybenzone actually harms us.
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Uh-huh. So it looks like at the doses that most
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people are getting their sunscreen at, We don't need to
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worry here.
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Exactly.
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Yeah. And what about the coral reef? People are very
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worried about the coral reef.
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Your sunscreen is killing the coral reefs.
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Oxymenzone, which has been known to bleach our coral reef.
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It can damage coral reefs and wildlife, so you don't
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want to do that. So do I need to worry
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about that?
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Yeah.
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So oxybenzone is one of those chemicals that has been
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banned in places like Hawaii.
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Because they're worried about their coral reefs?
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Yeah, they're worried about their coral and the bleaching. When
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you take a closer look at these studies, the science
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is also a bit more nuanced. Scientists would bring young
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coral into the lab and then expose them to these
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sunscreen chemicals and find that it was toxic to their DNA.
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It caused coral bleaching.
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But when you look in a real-world setting and actually
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measure the amount of this stuff that's floating around in
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the ocean, we don't see it in nearly as high
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scary levels.
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Mm-hmm. It's all about the dose.
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Yes.
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It's all about the dose, whether you're talking about the coral,
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whether you're talking about the people.
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Mm-hmm.
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We know beyond a shadow of a doubt that the
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primary cause of coral bleaching is climate change, right? That's
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been shown now. It has been suggested by more realistic
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and moderate studies that sunscreen exposure, especially oxybenzone, may add
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what they call insult to injury. But it's certainly not
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the primary cause of the decimation of coral reefs that
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we've been seeing.
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Guys, it's climate change.
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But despite that, all of these studies did lead to
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some changes. A bunch of manufacturers have taken out this
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chemical oxybenzone from their sunscreens anyway. because people just weren't
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buying them from the shelf anymore.
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Oh, okay.
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Because consumers didn't want it. And so what are they
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putting in the sunscreen these days? Should we be worried
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about that?
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Well, here's the thing.
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People are worried about all the other ingredients that come
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in sunscreens. There's a bunch of other chemicals that also
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showed up in these same studies. But the story is
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pretty much the same. They do get into our blood,
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but we have no evidence that they hurt us. And
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as someone who has dug into the research, Brandon isn't
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worried about them.
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I have chemical sunscreens on my face right now. I
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was outside this morning in the early morning sun, and
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I applied chemical sunscreens. So I personally do not believe
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that there is a significant risk with routine use of
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these ingredients.
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And he said chemical sunscreen. Aren't all sunscreens chemical sunscreens?
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So they can break down into like two major pools.
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There's chemical sunscreens and then there's mineral sunscreens.
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Oh, yes.
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I have heard this. Sounds like marketing fluff.
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No, mineral sunscreens are legit.
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Are they really?
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What is the difference? It's like it's all a chemical.
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But mineral sounds, you know, like a nicer chemical you'd
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get at a spa.
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Yeah, I mean, it's a little, to get a bit nerdier,
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the chemical sunscreens have organic molecules in them and the
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mineral sunscreens have inorganic ones.
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These are things like zinc oxide.
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So by organic chemical, just because I don't want the
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audience thinking that means it doesn't have pesticides in it,
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you mean it's carbon-based?
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Yeah.
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Okay, and then inorganic, like zinc oxide, no carbon in there.
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And are they better?
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So the people who.
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or maybe still freaked out about the fact that chemical
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sunscreens get into your blood at all. Mineral sunscreens are
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the other option because they more so like sit on
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the surface of your skin and they don't go down
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into your blood in the same way as those chemical
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sunscreen ingredients.
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However, they are more likely to give you a white cast.
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They leave a white cast on your skin.
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00:15:21.529 --> 00:15:26.250
And then these DIY sunscreens that people are making.
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I mean, do they work?
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Yeah, I was curious about that too. So I asked Brandon.
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And what I'm seeing more and more is that whenever
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an ingredient or a product gets called toxic, the next
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sentence is, let me sell you a non-toxic alternative. And
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this is when we get into homemade recipes for sunscreens
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that we're finding on the internet. People are turning to
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making their own sunscreens with zinc oxide and beef tallow.
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00:15:59.049 --> 00:16:01.669
How are they getting their zinc oxide from sunscreen? Is
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00:16:02.129 --> 00:16:04.159
this like The Simpsons? You made a spoon out of
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a bigger spoon?
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I got to process that for a second. You made
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a spoon out of a bigger spoon. I guess they're
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buying the mineral.
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You took sunscreen and then made a different sunscreen out
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of it?
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You just added beef tallow to the sunscreen you bought
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at the store?
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I actually found one study that looked into these kind
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of online recipes. What they did was.
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00:16:26.539 --> 00:16:30.620
find 15 recipes from online, and they whipped them up
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in the lab and then tested them out.
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Ooh, and what did they find?
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00:16:34.639 --> 00:16:36.320
It turns out a few of them didn't even have
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anything in them that could act as a sunscreen, and
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00:16:41.039 --> 00:16:43.710
then the rest were less than an SPF of 6.
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00:16:43.710 --> 00:16:47.470
Uh-huh, which is unlikely to help you.
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00:16:47.490 --> 00:16:48.830
It's not going to help you, yeah.
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00:16:49.570 --> 00:16:53.830
When people have looked at how effective these homemade sunscreens are,
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00:16:53.870 --> 00:16:55.549
they really aren't at all.
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00:16:56.549 --> 00:16:59.909
So don't DIY your sunscreen. No shockers there.
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00:17:00.129 --> 00:17:02.549
For those of us in the U.S., there is some
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00:17:02.649 --> 00:17:07.339
sunscreen news. There was this chemical sunscreen ingredient that was
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00:17:07.420 --> 00:17:08.500
recently approved.
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It's called Bemotrizol.
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00:17:10.779 --> 00:17:13.220
And it's the first sunscreen ingredient that we've gotten approved
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00:17:13.259 --> 00:17:13.819
in like 20 years.
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00:17:14.839 --> 00:17:15.789
Wow.
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00:17:16.109 --> 00:17:19.329
Good job. Good work, guys. It's been in Australia for
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00:17:19.349 --> 00:17:21.049
a while, this ingredient, and Europe.
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00:17:21.390 --> 00:17:24.930
But why are people getting excited about it?
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00:17:25.210 --> 00:17:27.309
Yeah, so I talked to Brandon about it, and he
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says it has a lot going for it.
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00:17:29.589 --> 00:17:30.549
I would say the U.S.
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00:17:30.609 --> 00:17:32.230
Is just barely catching up.
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00:17:32.730 --> 00:17:36.759
So, Bematrizinol does a great job being a true broad-spectrum
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00:17:36.779 --> 00:17:42.440
sunscreen ingredient. It is very stable. and mixable with other
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00:17:42.480 --> 00:17:47.380
sunscreen ingredients, which is a real plus here. And in addition,
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bematrizinol is a large molecule that is not easily absorbed
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00:17:52.579 --> 00:17:53.980
into the skin or into the body.
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00:17:54.980 --> 00:17:58.549
So, okay, so it doesn't get absorbed too much. So
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00:17:58.609 --> 00:18:00.730
it's kind of like the mineral sunscreens. What are some
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00:18:00.750 --> 00:18:01.349
other benefits?
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00:18:01.970 --> 00:18:04.430
So it's very stable.
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00:18:04.490 --> 00:18:06.720
So the sun, like, You know how you have to
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00:18:06.740 --> 00:18:10.299
reapply sunscreen every couple hours. But this means that it's
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00:18:10.319 --> 00:18:12.319
a little bit more stable. It's probably going to protect
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00:18:12.339 --> 00:18:14.880
you for a little longer. So kind of guarantee your
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00:18:14.900 --> 00:18:19.730
safety a bit more. And then it also, if you've
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00:18:19.750 --> 00:18:23.329
heard about like European and Asian sunscreens being like really
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00:18:23.450 --> 00:18:27.769
nice and easy to sort of like rub into your skin.
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00:18:27.910 --> 00:18:30.150
Just like applies really nicely and finely.
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00:18:30.819 --> 00:18:35.339
Why are you laughing? Because it just feels like this classic,
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00:18:35.359 --> 00:18:36.640
like the grass is greener.
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00:18:37.240 --> 00:18:39.720
Over there, they have the best sunscreens in the world.
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00:18:39.799 --> 00:18:42.140
It's true, though. Have you tried Korean sunscreen?
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00:18:44.119 --> 00:18:46.460
I guess I've traveled. I just shove it on my face.
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00:18:46.559 --> 00:18:47.680
I don't think too deeply.
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00:18:47.700 --> 00:18:47.779
Yeah.
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00:18:48.779 --> 00:18:50.799
I mean, maybe you've had the good one all along, though.
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00:18:51.079 --> 00:18:51.640
It's true.
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00:18:51.700 --> 00:18:52.380
It's true.
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00:18:52.400 --> 00:18:54.430
It's been 20 years and we've been without it.
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00:18:55.170 --> 00:18:57.950
Okay. It's true. So it rubs it nicer.
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00:18:57.990 --> 00:18:58.230
Yeah.
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00:18:58.710 --> 00:18:58.890
Yeah.
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00:18:59.740 --> 00:19:00.720
Then when you.
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00:19:00.700 --> 00:19:03.779
Have studies look to see if it gets into your blood?
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00:19:04.180 --> 00:19:07.039
Yeah, there's been studies and it does not get into
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00:19:07.099 --> 00:19:09.920
the blood in the same way. It sits on top
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00:19:10.069 --> 00:19:11.549
more like the mineral sunscreens.
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00:19:11.890 --> 00:19:14.869
Oh, awesome. So will you be buying that one now? Yeah,
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00:19:14.890 --> 00:19:15.250
for sure.
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00:19:15.269 --> 00:19:16.710
I'm going to keep an eye out for it.
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00:19:18.069 --> 00:19:22.230
Okay, so here's where we're at so far. Your sunscreen
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00:19:22.369 --> 00:19:25.710
is not toxic, although... It.
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00:19:25.670 --> 00:19:29.170
Does have chemicals in it that, depending on the kind
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00:19:29.210 --> 00:19:31.980
of sunscreen you get, may turn up in your blood.
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00:19:33.140 --> 00:19:39.299
And in super high doses, that can cause trouble, particularly
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00:19:39.339 --> 00:19:43.670
in rats or in rat studies. But most of us,
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00:19:43.890 --> 00:19:47.470
all of us, are probably not getting those high scary doses.
400
00:19:49.109 --> 00:19:49.970
So, so far.
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00:19:50.559 --> 00:19:53.900
I'm sticking with my sunscreen.
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00:19:53.200 --> 00:19:54.779
Regime, Michelle.
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00:19:54.799 --> 00:19:55.859
Okay, sounds good.
404
00:19:55.940 --> 00:19:57.839
But what's coming up after the break?
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00:19:58.289 --> 00:20:02.490
After the break, we're going to be looking at vitamin D. Ooh! Ooh!
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00:20:03.990 --> 00:20:09.150
Yes, because that could change things for me. I have
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00:20:09.329 --> 00:20:13.690
always wondered, am I blocking out too much of the
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00:20:13.730 --> 00:20:14.720
sun's rays?
409
00:20:14.779 --> 00:20:17.440
Am I lowering my vitamin D levels too much? Yeah,
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00:20:17.779 --> 00:20:18.660
with your sunscreen, right?
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00:20:18.700 --> 00:20:18.920
Yeah.
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00:20:19.160 --> 00:20:19.460
Yeah.
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00:20:20.140 --> 00:20:22.059
And while we're heading into the break, if you have
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00:20:22.119 --> 00:20:25.589
a friend who's afraid of sunscreen, maybe send them this episode.
415
00:20:40.480 --> 00:20:40.980
Welcome back.
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00:20:41.019 --> 00:20:43.400
Today on the show, we're talking all about sunscreen.
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00:20:44.180 --> 00:20:48.269
Should you stop wearing it? Next up, vitamin D.
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00:20:48.670 --> 00:20:49.569
We know it's important.
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00:20:49.710 --> 00:20:53.210
Is sunscreen the reason that your vitamin D levels are
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00:20:53.269 --> 00:20:54.049
too low?
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00:20:54.789 --> 00:20:58.289
Michelle Dang, producer at Science Versus. Tell us the science.
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00:20:58.880 --> 00:20:59.230
Yeah.
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00:20:59.299 --> 00:21:02.079
So let's start with why vitamin D is so important.
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00:21:02.940 --> 00:21:06.799
It's like this middle manager that helps calcium get absorbed
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00:21:06.819 --> 00:21:09.369
into our gut and And we need calcium to keep
426
00:21:09.410 --> 00:21:13.150
our bones strong, right? So a really bad vitamin D
427
00:21:13.190 --> 00:21:17.430
deficiency actually can make your bones start to become soft
428
00:21:17.750 --> 00:21:19.349
and even break more often.
429
00:21:20.470 --> 00:21:22.630
And this can manifest as a disease.
430
00:21:22.529 --> 00:21:27.190
Called rickets in kids or osteomalacia in adults. So I
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00:21:27.390 --> 00:21:31.200
talked about this with Professor Rachel Neal from QIMR Berghofer
432
00:21:31.299 --> 00:21:35.099
Medical Research Institute in Australia. And she was like, yeah,
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00:21:35.200 --> 00:21:37.059
you really don't want to go through this.
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00:21:37.829 --> 00:21:42.670
So certainly being really badly vitamin D deficient, that's worrying
435
00:21:42.710 --> 00:21:44.359
and that needs to be corrected rapidly.
436
00:21:45.519 --> 00:21:47.839
Yeah, I mean, vitamin D deficiency has also been linked
437
00:21:47.859 --> 00:21:50.299
to a bunch of chronic diseases, right?
438
00:21:50.579 --> 00:21:52.339
Yeah, we think it might play a role in the
439
00:21:52.359 --> 00:21:54.880
immune system. And there's a bunch of studies linking it
440
00:21:54.920 --> 00:22:01.099
with things like having worse COVID, worse cancer outcomes, multiple sclerosis.
441
00:22:01.440 --> 00:22:04.769
Yeah, so super important. So is wearing sunscreen a risk
442
00:22:04.829 --> 00:22:05.369
factor here?
443
00:22:05.880 --> 00:22:06.430
Yeah, so.
444
00:22:07.450 --> 00:22:09.869
You know, we get some vitamin D from our food,
445
00:22:10.190 --> 00:22:12.109
but most of it we get from the sun.
446
00:22:12.130 --> 00:22:14.569
And so how exactly does that happen?
447
00:22:14.589 --> 00:22:18.589
Does the sun stimulate vitamin D in us?
448
00:22:19.089 --> 00:22:20.910
Yeah, so it's super cool.
449
00:22:21.210 --> 00:22:23.579
And it's one of the only vitamins that our body
450
00:22:23.599 --> 00:22:27.130
can actually make. And it happens from the sun, which
451
00:22:27.190 --> 00:22:31.000
is just crazy. So what happens is that the rays
452
00:22:31.059 --> 00:22:35.740
from the sun hit our skin cells. And inside our
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00:22:35.779 --> 00:22:40.779
skin cells, there's this chemical that's a cholesterol. And when
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00:22:40.839 --> 00:22:44.890
the UV rays hit that chemical, it changes shape a
455
00:22:44.930 --> 00:22:49.390
couple of times from the energy. And then that molecule
456
00:22:49.470 --> 00:22:53.150
goes on to become vitamin D. It leaves the skin,
457
00:22:53.339 --> 00:22:56.779
goes into our blood, and then here's Rachel to tell
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00:22:56.799 --> 00:22:57.339
you about the rest.
459
00:22:57.809 --> 00:23:00.589
It gets carried in our bloodstream to the liver and
460
00:23:00.630 --> 00:23:03.230
then that molecule gets carried to the kidneys and to
461
00:23:03.329 --> 00:23:05.130
other cells to become the active form of.
462
00:23:05.089 --> 00:23:06.960
Vitamin D so it can do what it needs to do.
463
00:23:08.480 --> 00:23:12.779
Okay, so how much sunlight do we need to get
464
00:23:12.859 --> 00:23:15.839
enough vitamin D in our lives?
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00:23:16.299 --> 00:23:19.789
Yeah, so it can depend on several different things like
466
00:23:20.309 --> 00:23:22.450
where you live, the time of the day, the time
467
00:23:22.490 --> 00:23:23.349
of the season.
468
00:23:23.910 --> 00:23:27.170
But just for example... It can be really fast.
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00:23:27.650 --> 00:23:27.930
Mm-hmm.
470
00:23:28.299 --> 00:23:30.680
Rachel told me if you went out in the middle
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00:23:30.700 --> 00:23:33.400
of a summer day in Brisbane on the east coast
472
00:23:33.480 --> 00:23:34.200
of Australia.
473
00:23:34.220 --> 00:23:37.920
It takes about five minutes wearing shorts and a t-shirt.
474
00:23:38.039 --> 00:23:39.079
Wow, that's really quick.
475
00:23:39.579 --> 00:23:40.680
It's not long, yeah.
476
00:23:41.500 --> 00:23:44.180
Now that's if you have pale skin like Rachel.
477
00:23:44.839 --> 00:23:47.359
And another important part here is if you have darker skin,
478
00:23:47.500 --> 00:23:50.819
it's going to take longer, about 20 minutes under the
479
00:23:50.859 --> 00:23:51.640
same conditions.
480
00:23:51.660 --> 00:23:55.259
Uh-huh, to get enough vitamin D for your daily needs.
481
00:23:55.500 --> 00:23:55.660
Mm-hmm.
482
00:23:56.269 --> 00:23:57.349
And, you know, that's in Australia.
483
00:23:57.390 --> 00:24:00.490
There are probably across different places in the world. If
484
00:24:00.509 --> 00:24:03.309
you're looking at summer and you're looking at midday, you
485
00:24:03.329 --> 00:24:04.230
see a similar thing.
486
00:24:04.990 --> 00:24:05.390
Okay.
487
00:24:05.470 --> 00:24:08.269
Winter, it's going to take longer. 6 a.m., it's going
488
00:24:08.289 --> 00:24:08.849
to take longer.
489
00:24:09.130 --> 00:24:15.509
But it's not huge amounts of time. So does sunscreen
490
00:24:16.970 --> 00:24:17.730
affect this?
491
00:24:17.849 --> 00:24:20.809
Or do you kind of just get enough sun even
492
00:24:20.829 --> 00:24:23.890
if you put sunscreen on to get your vitamin D needs?
493
00:24:24.950 --> 00:24:29.029
It's a valid question because the same exact UV ray
494
00:24:29.170 --> 00:24:32.549
that we need to create vitamin D, it's called UVB rays,
495
00:24:33.569 --> 00:24:37.140
is the same exact one that sunscreen is designed to block.
496
00:24:38.839 --> 00:24:41.740
So let me tell you about a study that we have,
497
00:24:41.859 --> 00:24:45.440
which was done by Rachel and her team, where they
498
00:24:45.460 --> 00:24:46.480
wanted to test this all out.
499
00:24:46.859 --> 00:24:49.440
Does sunscreen affect your vitamin D levels?
500
00:24:49.769 --> 00:24:52.630
And so they did this study in Australia and And
501
00:24:52.670 --> 00:24:55.529
they gathered 600 people for it who said that they
502
00:24:55.589 --> 00:24:59.609
don't wear sunscreen that often, about two or less times
503
00:24:59.630 --> 00:25:04.039
a week. And then they split them into two different groups.
504
00:25:05.130 --> 00:25:07.740
One of them, they told, like, just carry on as usual.
505
00:25:07.759 --> 00:25:11.519
Do what you're doing. The other group.
506
00:25:11.839 --> 00:25:15.000
Was told to put on sunscreen in the morning every
507
00:25:15.039 --> 00:25:17.839
time it was forecasted that the sun was going to
508
00:25:17.880 --> 00:25:19.480
be strong enough to.
509
00:25:19.480 --> 00:25:20.329
Harm their skin.
510
00:25:20.349 --> 00:25:21.130
Okay.
511
00:25:21.150 --> 00:25:21.390
Okay.
512
00:25:21.789 --> 00:25:24.339
And for the sunscreen nerds out there, that's when the
513
00:25:24.450 --> 00:25:26.619
UV index is at.
514
00:25:26.640 --> 00:25:26.700
UV3.
515
00:25:27.019 --> 00:25:27.559
Or higher.
516
00:25:27.839 --> 00:25:29.819
Yes, you got it. Okay.
517
00:25:30.039 --> 00:25:32.640
And that's pretty much every day in Australia except for
518
00:25:32.660 --> 00:25:33.039
the winter.
519
00:25:33.059 --> 00:25:34.579
Uh-huh.
520
00:25:34.859 --> 00:25:38.059
So on these days, the sunscreen group were told to
521
00:25:38.079 --> 00:25:41.990
wear SPF 50 sunscreen. And they had to wear it
522
00:25:42.150 --> 00:25:46.279
everywhere that they had skin exposed to. And to make
523
00:25:46.339 --> 00:25:48.579
sure that they actually used it when they were supposed to,
524
00:25:48.859 --> 00:25:49.299
Rachel and.
525
00:25:49.279 --> 00:25:51.210
Her team bugged them a lot about it.
526
00:25:51.440 --> 00:25:54.299
We sent them text message reminders every week saying the
527
00:25:54.359 --> 00:25:56.079
UV index is going to get to three this week.
528
00:25:56.099 --> 00:25:57.529
Make sure you use your sunscreen.
529
00:25:57.569 --> 00:25:59.849
And we phoned them and we made sure that they
530
00:25:59.869 --> 00:26:02.250
were doing it as much as they possibly could.
531
00:26:03.829 --> 00:26:06.109
And how long did this go on for? A whole year.
532
00:26:06.130 --> 00:26:07.549
A year?
533
00:26:07.750 --> 00:26:11.269
Wow, what an amazing study. Okay, so what did they find?
534
00:26:12.019 --> 00:26:15.839
So they measured the vitamin D levels at the beginning
535
00:26:15.859 --> 00:26:19.039
of the study, after the summer, and after the winter.
536
00:26:19.059 --> 00:26:22.289
And what they found was that throughout the summer, it
537
00:26:22.529 --> 00:26:25.769
looked like on average, vitamin D levels were fine.
538
00:26:26.349 --> 00:26:28.650
Levels were going up in both groups.
539
00:26:30.569 --> 00:26:34.039
And they didn't see vitamin D deficiencies across the board
540
00:26:34.190 --> 00:26:35.079
in the sunscreen group.
541
00:26:35.940 --> 00:26:37.220
Oh, so in summer.
542
00:26:38.339 --> 00:26:41.559
the groups had the same amount of vitamin D. It
543
00:26:41.619 --> 00:26:46.059
wasn't just that the sunscreen group wasn't deficient. They actually
544
00:26:46.099 --> 00:26:50.380
were all making an equal number on average of vitamin D.
545
00:26:50.400 --> 00:26:54.920
Well, actually, to clarify, the people wearing sunscreen nearly every
546
00:26:54.940 --> 00:26:59.059
day actually made a little bit less vitamin D than
547
00:26:59.099 --> 00:26:59.759
the control group.
548
00:27:00.180 --> 00:27:00.720
Got it.
549
00:27:01.259 --> 00:27:03.980
And so, you know, people wearing sunscreen were still making,
550
00:27:04.339 --> 00:27:07.230
they were still making vitamin D because... We know that
551
00:27:07.269 --> 00:27:10.579
sunscreen is not like a perfect blocker. It still lets
552
00:27:10.680 --> 00:27:12.519
in some of those UV rays.
553
00:27:13.019 --> 00:27:15.119
What happened in winter then?
554
00:27:15.180 --> 00:27:18.140
Yeah, so they kept following these people. And by the
555
00:27:18.299 --> 00:27:21.839
end of winter, they did notice something very interesting.
556
00:27:22.279 --> 00:27:26.480
And there was about a 35% increased risk of being
557
00:27:26.519 --> 00:27:29.420
vitamin D deficient at the end of winter in the
558
00:27:29.460 --> 00:27:31.099
sunscreen group than in the control group.
559
00:27:31.849 --> 00:27:35.289
Ooh, I mean, they were really wearing a lot of
560
00:27:35.309 --> 00:27:36.309
sunscreen there.
561
00:27:36.569 --> 00:27:40.130
But what does Rachel make of this?
562
00:27:40.150 --> 00:27:43.009
I was really surprised by the results.
563
00:27:45.970 --> 00:27:47.930
Mmm.
564
00:27:47.950 --> 00:27:48.029
Okay.
565
00:27:48.430 --> 00:27:51.690
Now, everyone in the study made less vitamin D in
566
00:27:51.730 --> 00:27:53.799
the winter, which is what you'd expect.
567
00:27:53.880 --> 00:27:54.259
Yeah.
568
00:27:55.039 --> 00:27:58.240
But the fact that the sunscreen group made less vitamin
569
00:27:58.279 --> 00:28:01.220
D throughout the summer is what made the difference here.
570
00:28:02.150 --> 00:28:05.349
Because another interesting thing is that our bodies can actually
571
00:28:05.369 --> 00:28:10.309
hold on to vitamin D in our fat tissues and release.
572
00:28:10.049 --> 00:28:12.279
It slowly over several months.
573
00:28:13.500 --> 00:28:17.000
I asked Rachel, was it that the daily sunscreen wearers
574
00:28:17.079 --> 00:28:19.940
built up less of a storage, like a store of
575
00:28:20.259 --> 00:28:22.500
vitamin D that would last them through the winter?
576
00:28:23.119 --> 00:28:24.109
Through the winter, correct.
577
00:28:24.160 --> 00:28:24.529
Yeah.
578
00:28:24.549 --> 00:28:27.690
So the store ended up lower at the end of summer,
579
00:28:28.089 --> 00:28:30.049
which meant that as they went down in winter.
580
00:28:30.549 --> 00:28:32.490
they ended up lower at the end of winter.
581
00:28:32.529 --> 00:28:34.930
And if you imagine that that happened year after year
582
00:28:34.990 --> 00:28:38.640
after year, so you've used sunscreen for a year, you're
583
00:28:38.660 --> 00:28:41.819
lower in winter, you go up less in summer because
584
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:43.019
you're using sunscreen every day.
585
00:28:43.079 --> 00:28:45.380
So now your store's even lower than it was. You
586
00:28:45.420 --> 00:28:47.420
end up even lower at the end of the following winter.
587
00:28:47.460 --> 00:28:51.299
So with these repeated yearly cycles, you can imagine that
588
00:28:51.339 --> 00:28:53.460
if you did this all the time, you could end
589
00:28:53.559 --> 00:28:54.660
up quite deficient.
590
00:28:55.359 --> 00:28:59.720
So I guess now we play the game of.
591
00:29:00.869 --> 00:29:02.809
Risks and benefits, Michelle.
592
00:29:04.910 --> 00:29:08.470
So, okay, wearing a lot of sunscreen does put you
593
00:29:08.529 --> 00:29:13.720
at a risk of vitamin D deficiency, but we're not
594
00:29:13.740 --> 00:29:16.180
doing this for fun. We're doing this to protect our
595
00:29:16.240 --> 00:29:21.920
skin from cancer, effects of aging.
596
00:29:22.980 --> 00:29:25.789
So is that still real?
597
00:29:25.809 --> 00:29:28.470
Because some people online say even that's a lie.
598
00:29:28.869 --> 00:29:31.000
So yeah, here's the concern with skin cancer.
599
00:29:31.240 --> 00:29:33.880
Those UV rays from the sun are coming down, hitting
600
00:29:33.940 --> 00:29:37.009
our skin, getting through those cells to the DNA, and
601
00:29:38.089 --> 00:29:42.019
causing a mutation in that tissue. And then again, we're
602
00:29:42.039 --> 00:29:43.240
talking about doses.
603
00:29:44.220 --> 00:29:45.480
Repeated exposure to the.
604
00:29:45.440 --> 00:29:49.089
Sun can help those mutations accumulate over time.
605
00:29:49.680 --> 00:29:50.509
Yes, yes.
606
00:29:50.609 --> 00:29:52.910
This is what we've known for a long time. So
607
00:29:52.990 --> 00:29:56.309
why is... And then the obvious next step would be
608
00:29:56.430 --> 00:30:00.400
if you can wear sunscreen... block those UV rays, reduce
609
00:30:00.440 --> 00:30:03.650
the chance of DNA damage, you can protect your skin.
610
00:30:04.329 --> 00:30:11.430
That's the line from the health authorities, Michelle. But is
611
00:30:11.509 --> 00:30:14.150
it true when we look at the new science?
612
00:30:14.609 --> 00:30:16.859
So when we get into the real world studies, it
613
00:30:16.960 --> 00:30:18.160
gets a little bit messy.
614
00:30:18.180 --> 00:30:19.000
Uh-huh.
615
00:30:19.400 --> 00:30:21.880
The kind where they gather a bunch of people, ask
616
00:30:21.900 --> 00:30:25.839
them about their lifestyle and what they do, whether they
617
00:30:25.859 --> 00:30:29.009
wear sunscreen... And then later look to see, you know,
618
00:30:29.289 --> 00:30:30.569
do they have skin cancer?
619
00:30:30.809 --> 00:30:31.089
Yeah.
620
00:30:31.569 --> 00:30:33.990
And some of these studies find that some people who
621
00:30:34.009 --> 00:30:37.150
wear more sunscreen get less skin cancer.
622
00:30:37.470 --> 00:30:38.789
Yeah, what you'd expect.
623
00:30:39.109 --> 00:30:42.970
But, you know, not every study finds that. People really
624
00:30:43.009 --> 00:30:46.170
like to point to this one study that was done
625
00:30:46.210 --> 00:30:47.730
in 2023 out of the UK.
626
00:30:47.750 --> 00:30:48.569
Okay.
627
00:30:48.950 --> 00:30:52.329
Where it looked at the health data of over 400,000 people.
628
00:30:52.349 --> 00:30:56.579
And it found that people who wear more sunscreen more
629
00:30:56.650 --> 00:30:59.609
often— are more likely to get skin cancer.
630
00:31:00.049 --> 00:31:04.950
Wait, so that people who wore more sunscreen were more
631
00:31:05.009 --> 00:31:07.869
likely to get skin cancer?
632
00:31:08.490 --> 00:31:09.329
Mm-hmm, yes.
633
00:31:09.990 --> 00:31:16.900
That sounds, big study, 400,000 people, it sounds damning for
634
00:31:16.920 --> 00:31:20.599
the sunscreen propagandists out there like me.
635
00:31:21.420 --> 00:31:23.779
But it is making me wonder, could it be.
636
00:31:24.990 --> 00:31:29.000
That the people who were wearing more sunscreen were actually
637
00:31:29.240 --> 00:31:32.720
out in the sun more often, and they were badly
638
00:31:32.799 --> 00:31:38.180
applying sunscreen, and that's why they had more skin cancer.
639
00:31:38.640 --> 00:31:40.039
Yeah, you are right on track.
640
00:31:40.539 --> 00:31:42.750
The authors of this study came out to say that
641
00:31:43.029 --> 00:31:47.190
people online are misinterpreting this study. And even though they
642
00:31:47.230 --> 00:31:50.329
found a link, what's likely really happening here is that
643
00:31:50.369 --> 00:31:53.309
people who where more sunscreen are more likely to go
644
00:31:53.470 --> 00:31:56.930
outside and be outside in the sun, but maybe under
645
00:31:56.990 --> 00:31:59.829
this like false security because.
646
00:31:59.569 --> 00:32:01.130
Maybe they're not wearing it enough.
647
00:32:01.150 --> 00:32:03.970
They're not wearing enough of it or, you know, not
648
00:32:04.210 --> 00:32:05.690
reapplying and that kind of thing.
649
00:32:06.390 --> 00:32:08.170
So do we have any better studies here that can
650
00:32:08.210 --> 00:32:08.589
help us?
651
00:32:09.269 --> 00:32:12.170
Yeah, so one day we actually have one RCT, randomized
652
00:32:12.190 --> 00:32:16.450
controlled trial. And this one happened in Australia. It looked
653
00:32:16.549 --> 00:32:21.109
at 1,600 people. And similar to Rachel's study, it split
654
00:32:21.150 --> 00:32:25.809
these people into two different groups. One was given sunscreen
655
00:32:25.869 --> 00:32:28.539
and told to wear it every day. And the other
656
00:32:28.599 --> 00:32:31.140
was told to carry on as usual, do whatever they want.
657
00:32:31.700 --> 00:32:31.980
Okay.
658
00:32:32.440 --> 00:32:35.539
And, Wendy, they followed these people for over a decade.
659
00:32:35.559 --> 00:32:35.640
Okay.
660
00:32:37.049 --> 00:32:37.119
Wow.
661
00:32:37.869 --> 00:32:42.769
This is an amazing study. This is exactly what we need. 1,600
662
00:32:42.769 --> 00:32:46.640
people followed for a decade because skin cancers can take
663
00:32:46.680 --> 00:32:49.000
a while to develop. So what did they find? Did
664
00:32:49.460 --> 00:32:52.279
the sunscreen group get less cancer? Yeah.
665
00:32:52.619 --> 00:32:54.640
So they looked to see who in the study got
666
00:32:54.720 --> 00:32:59.109
skin cancer. And there are three main types of skin cancer.
667
00:32:59.170 --> 00:33:04.690
There's squamous cell carcinoma, basal cell carcinoma, And then there's
668
00:33:04.769 --> 00:33:08.349
the scary one, melanoma, which is more likely to spread
669
00:33:08.569 --> 00:33:12.170
and kill you. And what the RCT found was that
670
00:33:12.240 --> 00:33:14.519
the sunscreen worked pretty well for that one type of
671
00:33:14.539 --> 00:33:19.900
skin cancer, squamous cell carcinoma. It basically dropped cases 40%
672
00:33:19.900 --> 00:33:21.579
between the two groups.
673
00:33:22.400 --> 00:33:25.039
Aha, aha, but what about melanoma?
674
00:33:25.319 --> 00:33:28.359
Yeah, so when it came to melanoma, the evidence was
675
00:33:28.500 --> 00:33:34.019
actually less clear. There was 11 people who got melanoma
676
00:33:34.150 --> 00:33:38.319
in the sunscreen group versus 22 in the control group.
677
00:33:38.500 --> 00:33:40.759
That's a 50% lower risk, Michelle.
678
00:33:41.519 --> 00:33:44.519
Yeah, but it actually didn't come out to statistically significant,
679
00:33:44.680 --> 00:33:47.000
probably because the cases were just too low.
680
00:33:48.910 --> 00:33:49.490
Okay.
681
00:33:50.490 --> 00:33:51.230
Interesting.
682
00:33:51.470 --> 00:33:54.349
It does seem like then sunscreen is still protecting you
683
00:33:54.390 --> 00:33:55.170
from skin cancer.
684
00:33:55.230 --> 00:33:57.930
That story is still true, even if it's not your
685
00:33:57.970 --> 00:33:59.309
silver bullet, right?
686
00:33:59.329 --> 00:33:59.410
Yeah.
687
00:33:59.759 --> 00:34:02.369
And yeah, like the dermatologist I spoke to, they were like, hey,
688
00:34:02.410 --> 00:34:06.750
if we were to redo this study looking at melanoma,
689
00:34:06.789 --> 00:34:09.829
which is the scarier one, maybe the data would be
690
00:34:09.869 --> 00:34:13.510
even stronger today because back then they were using SPF
691
00:34:13.510 --> 00:34:14.829
16 and now.
692
00:34:14.690 --> 00:34:17.139
We're using SPF 30, SPF 50.
693
00:34:17.139 --> 00:34:19.699
And in that study, did it matter about your skin tone?
694
00:34:20.260 --> 00:34:22.460
If you have darker skin or lighter skin, does that
695
00:34:22.500 --> 00:34:24.500
affect your risk here? Yeah.
696
00:34:24.539 --> 00:34:26.460
So here's the thing with that study.
697
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:30.880
Most of the people in it were white, which brings
698
00:34:30.940 --> 00:34:33.440
us to this other idea where some people say that
699
00:34:33.480 --> 00:34:36.320
people with darker skin don't.
700
00:34:36.179 --> 00:34:38.670
Get the same benefits from sunscreen. Okay.
701
00:34:38.710 --> 00:34:40.650
Well, we already know if you've got darker skin, you're
702
00:34:40.670 --> 00:34:43.829
at an increased risk of vitamin D deficiency. So if
703
00:34:43.849 --> 00:34:47.090
we're playing this risk-benefit game, got to be some strong
704
00:34:47.130 --> 00:34:50.710
benefits here. Is it true that if you have darker skin,
705
00:34:50.730 --> 00:34:52.750
you're at a lower risk of skin cancer?
706
00:34:53.250 --> 00:34:54.750
So I talked about this with Dr.
707
00:34:54.829 --> 00:34:58.949
Adai Adamson, who's a dermatologist from Dell Medical School at
708
00:34:59.050 --> 00:35:03.489
University of Texas, Austin. And based on Adai's own experiences
709
00:35:03.610 --> 00:35:06.489
in the clinic, like with melanoma, he told me.
710
00:35:06.510 --> 00:35:09.360
Well, one, as a dermatologist, if I just think about
711
00:35:09.780 --> 00:35:11.760
the people that I see, right?
712
00:35:13.099 --> 00:35:17.059
And like, maybe I can only may think of one
713
00:35:17.079 --> 00:35:19.219
or two Black people that in, you know, doing this
714
00:35:19.260 --> 00:35:22.820
for 15 years, having actually seen or diagnosed one.
715
00:35:23.489 --> 00:35:23.710
Right.
716
00:35:24.110 --> 00:35:24.750
You don't see it.
717
00:35:26.010 --> 00:35:26.710
A melanoma.
718
00:35:27.110 --> 00:35:28.750
He's talking about melanoma specifically?
719
00:35:28.949 --> 00:35:29.710
Yes, exactly.
720
00:35:30.010 --> 00:35:32.809
If you look at the data, people of color do
721
00:35:32.889 --> 00:35:36.829
get melanoma a lot less than white people. For example,
722
00:35:36.989 --> 00:35:41.250
a black person's risk of getting melanoma is 30 to
723
00:35:41.250 --> 00:35:45.039
40 times less than a white person. And that's specifically
724
00:35:45.059 --> 00:35:46.039
the kind that spreads.
725
00:35:46.059 --> 00:35:46.280
Wow.
726
00:35:46.719 --> 00:35:49.670
And not only that, when it does show up in
727
00:35:49.730 --> 00:35:52.610
people with darker skin, it's often showing up in a
728
00:35:52.670 --> 00:35:53.610
very particular way.
729
00:35:53.630 --> 00:35:55.590
You know, people that mostly get.
730
00:35:57.019 --> 00:35:59.659
Melanoma on the palms of their hands, soles of the feet,
731
00:36:00.679 --> 00:36:03.210
places that are not related to sun exposure.
732
00:36:04.000 --> 00:36:06.320
So all of this was very curious to Ade.
733
00:36:06.719 --> 00:36:09.280
And he wanted to take a step back and understand
734
00:36:09.340 --> 00:36:12.980
whether sun exposure is linked to melanoma and people of
735
00:36:13.019 --> 00:36:14.659
color in the first place.
736
00:36:14.880 --> 00:36:18.349
Like, is there a connection here at all? And so
737
00:36:18.429 --> 00:36:18.869
he said.
738
00:36:19.269 --> 00:36:19.690
You know what?
739
00:36:20.190 --> 00:36:22.369
Let me do a systematic review, which is the top
740
00:36:22.570 --> 00:36:26.409
of the evidence pyramid, right? You get all the studies
741
00:36:26.449 --> 00:36:29.769
looking at this and see what comes out of it.
742
00:36:30.090 --> 00:36:33.440
Is there actually data to support UV is an important
743
00:36:33.460 --> 00:36:35.440
risk factor for melanoma.
744
00:36:35.760 --> 00:36:38.010
So they got together this big review on it, and
745
00:36:38.230 --> 00:36:41.090
he and his team wrangled up the data, crunched the numbers,
746
00:36:41.849 --> 00:36:44.010
and the answer to whether or not sun exposure is
747
00:36:44.230 --> 00:36:47.349
linked to melanoma in people of color.
748
00:36:47.889 --> 00:36:51.579
And to sum it up, no, it is not. It
749
00:36:51.619 --> 00:36:56.340
is not in anyone that identifies as non-white. Not Asian,
750
00:36:56.840 --> 00:37:00.280
not Hispanic, not Black, right?
751
00:37:00.480 --> 00:37:06.380
There is, like... almost zero data to support that.
752
00:37:07.219 --> 00:37:13.380
Whoa and why is that is melanin is super protective
753
00:37:13.960 --> 00:37:15.780
for melanoma what's going on.
754
00:37:16.039 --> 00:37:20.349
Yeah so that's also really cool what's happening there um
755
00:37:21.170 --> 00:37:24.289
no matter your skin color we all have these cells
756
00:37:25.150 --> 00:37:28.929
in our skin called melanocytes that make the pigment melanin
757
00:37:29.969 --> 00:37:34.510
and When we step outside, our melanocytes start pumping out
758
00:37:34.590 --> 00:37:36.610
melanin in response to the sun.
759
00:37:36.829 --> 00:37:38.110
And that's why you tan.
760
00:37:38.269 --> 00:37:40.690
Yeah, over time, you would eventually tan.
761
00:37:41.250 --> 00:37:44.070
But before that, Ade told me that melanin actually gets
762
00:37:44.170 --> 00:37:48.929
packaged up and it makes its way toward the surface
763
00:37:49.139 --> 00:37:49.719
of your skin.
764
00:37:49.739 --> 00:37:53.579
I don't know if you've ever noticed a phenomenon in
765
00:37:53.599 --> 00:37:56.760
the first 10, 15 minutes of some people getting some sun.
766
00:37:57.199 --> 00:37:59.900
They make it slightly darker. That's your melanin. If you
767
00:37:59.920 --> 00:38:02.659
have enough, at least, that's it moving out around the
768
00:38:02.699 --> 00:38:06.940
cell in order to protect the DNA from the incoming
769
00:38:07.699 --> 00:38:08.519
UV exposure.
770
00:38:08.559 --> 00:38:10.260
That's like one immediate response.
771
00:38:11.380 --> 00:38:17.460
Wait, so the melanocytes, the cells that make the melanin,
772
00:38:18.340 --> 00:38:23.809
then the melanin, is like sunscreen for your DNA, like
773
00:38:23.969 --> 00:38:25.909
natural sunscreen for your DNA?
774
00:38:25.929 --> 00:38:26.489
Yeah.
775
00:38:26.570 --> 00:38:29.760
So like this melanin, it's directly responding to the sun.
776
00:38:29.840 --> 00:38:34.500
It's moving up there and it's wanting to protect you
777
00:38:35.019 --> 00:38:39.199
from those UV rays. And in essence, protects you from
778
00:38:39.219 --> 00:38:41.780
the DNA damage that could cause skin cancer.
779
00:38:42.480 --> 00:38:45.300
Wow, that's so cool.
780
00:38:45.980 --> 00:38:48.900
And the more melanin that you have in your skin,
781
00:38:49.900 --> 00:38:53.079
the more likely it's doing a similar job to sunscreen.
782
00:38:53.940 --> 00:38:54.599
Here's a day again.
783
00:38:55.159 --> 00:39:00.300
So it is helping absorb some of the harmful effects
784
00:39:00.820 --> 00:39:02.500
that the UV will have.
785
00:39:02.489 --> 00:39:03.730
On the DNA.
786
00:39:04.329 --> 00:39:08.170
And depending on how dark you are, you can have
787
00:39:08.230 --> 00:39:11.110
an SPF of 15+.
788
00:39:11.829 --> 00:39:14.989
Equivalent, at least, if you're of a darker skin tone.
789
00:39:16.199 --> 00:39:18.360
That's so cool. It is, right?
790
00:39:18.679 --> 00:39:22.619
Yeah. So does this mean if you have a darker
791
00:39:22.639 --> 00:39:25.449
skin tone, then wearing sunscreen is not a good idea?
792
00:39:25.510 --> 00:39:28.690
Because then you're at an increased risk of vitamin D
793
00:39:28.730 --> 00:39:29.960
deficiency and you.
794
00:39:30.070 --> 00:39:31.659
don't get this skin cancer benefit.
795
00:39:32.019 --> 00:39:35.719
I guess specifically for melanoma, there are other skin cancers
796
00:39:36.280 --> 00:39:37.059
to worry about.
797
00:39:37.699 --> 00:39:38.880
Yeah, so you're right on track.
798
00:39:38.920 --> 00:39:42.599
Like after studies like a days came out, countries like
799
00:39:42.719 --> 00:39:48.760
Australia actually changed their guidance on sunscreen recommendation. So people
800
00:39:48.780 --> 00:39:52.340
that are of the darkest skin types don't routinely need
801
00:39:52.400 --> 00:39:56.110
to wear sunscreen to prevent skin cancer. They classify it
802
00:39:56.309 --> 00:40:00.889
by what's called the Fitzpatrick scale. So there's six different
803
00:40:01.130 --> 00:40:05.849
skin tone types. And the two darkest skin tones are
804
00:40:05.949 --> 00:40:09.230
not recommended to wear sunscreen for skin cancer in Australia.
805
00:40:09.550 --> 00:40:10.969
So we'll throw that up on screen.
806
00:40:11.369 --> 00:40:11.670
Uh-huh.
807
00:40:12.420 --> 00:40:14.489
On the flip side, though, places like the U.S., the
808
00:40:14.510 --> 00:40:17.989
American Academy of Dermatology, haven't changed their guidelines.
809
00:40:18.170 --> 00:40:21.110
And this is something that annoys a day a lot.
810
00:40:21.429 --> 00:40:24.190
We're not science-based. The recommendation is not.
811
00:40:24.570 --> 00:40:27.230
And it's also wild because we're in this era of
812
00:40:27.449 --> 00:40:35.730
personalized medicine, right? There should be personalized risk stratification related
813
00:40:35.769 --> 00:40:40.739
to the sun. Anyone saying sunscreen saves lives for personal
814
00:40:40.760 --> 00:40:46.110
color is lying there's a bald face bald.
815
00:40:45.769 --> 00:40:49.690
Face lie should people of color wear sunscreen then does
816
00:40:49.710 --> 00:40:53.110
this change the equation yeah.
817
00:40:51.929 --> 00:40:54.320
So i asked today and he said that you know
818
00:40:54.340 --> 00:40:59.159
sunscreen isn't useless like it still prevents sunburn and could
819
00:40:59.219 --> 00:41:04.469
have cosmetic benefits Because we think that melanin better protects
820
00:41:04.630 --> 00:41:09.590
against UVB rays versus UVA. And UVA rays are the
821
00:41:09.730 --> 00:41:12.369
ones that penetrate a little bit deeper into our skin
822
00:41:12.550 --> 00:41:16.909
and messes with things like elastin and collagen and can
823
00:41:16.929 --> 00:41:19.369
contribute to an effect of aging.
824
00:41:19.389 --> 00:41:22.429
Okay, and wrinkles and things like that.
825
00:41:23.289 --> 00:41:27.769
I asked Ade, does he still recommend his patients who
826
00:41:27.809 --> 00:41:29.429
are people of color to wear sunscreen?
827
00:41:29.690 --> 00:41:30.489
Sure, I do.
828
00:41:31.090 --> 00:41:34.989
Sunscreen has a lot of important uses. No matter your
829
00:41:35.579 --> 00:41:39.739
skin type, you can sunburn, right? That is possible. People
830
00:41:39.800 --> 00:41:43.800
like to use it for anti-aging. But for listeners that
831
00:41:43.840 --> 00:41:46.820
might not see my image, I'm a black male dermatologist.
832
00:41:47.389 --> 00:41:49.230
And so, yeah, I wear sunscreen.
833
00:41:49.869 --> 00:41:52.449
I went to the beach a few weeks ago. I
834
00:41:52.849 --> 00:41:56.429
had sunscreen on. I didn't want to get burned. But
835
00:41:56.449 --> 00:41:57.590
do I wear it daily?
836
00:41:58.409 --> 00:42:02.630
No, I don't. But that's me.
837
00:42:03.389 --> 00:42:06.969
I'm a different risk, say, than somebody that looks like
838
00:42:07.030 --> 00:42:07.909
Pippi Longstocking.
839
00:42:07.929 --> 00:42:17.980
And I guess for anyone worried about a vitamin D deficiency,
840
00:42:18.460 --> 00:42:21.849
no matter your skin tone, can you just take a
841
00:42:21.889 --> 00:42:25.070
supplement if you still want to wear sunscreen?
842
00:42:26.369 --> 00:42:28.190
Is vitamin D supplementation okay?
843
00:42:29.019 --> 00:42:31.380
Yeah, going back to Rachel Neal, who we heard about
844
00:42:31.440 --> 00:42:35.179
with the vitamin D study, I asked her, like, can
845
00:42:35.199 --> 00:42:38.360
you just take a supplement? And she's like, yes, that's
846
00:42:38.530 --> 00:42:41.289
the easy fix to this if you're worried about it.
847
00:42:41.489 --> 00:42:41.789
Great.
848
00:42:41.989 --> 00:42:42.230
Okay.
849
00:42:42.510 --> 00:42:45.389
Now, Rachel herself, she doesn't look like they belong stocking,
850
00:42:45.429 --> 00:42:48.969
but she does have pretty pale skin. And skin cancer
851
00:42:49.050 --> 00:42:52.639
is something she's very concerned about. She's also had it before.
852
00:42:53.019 --> 00:42:54.679
When I brush my teeth, I put my sunscreen on
853
00:42:54.719 --> 00:42:55.219
every day.
854
00:42:55.239 --> 00:42:55.300
So.
855
00:42:57.539 --> 00:42:59.360
For me, I think that's really important.
856
00:42:59.440 --> 00:43:01.199
We know that that reduces risk of skin cancer, and
857
00:43:01.219 --> 00:43:01.760
I've had three.
858
00:43:02.320 --> 00:43:04.889
So I had my first skin cancer when.
859
00:43:04.829 --> 00:43:08.409
I was 29, which shows how problematic the Australian sun
860
00:43:08.690 --> 00:43:11.269
can be. And it's the same in other parts of
861
00:43:11.309 --> 00:43:14.389
the world as well, where there's a really high UV,
862
00:43:14.449 --> 00:43:17.579
which means that just popping outdoors is enough to cause damage.
863
00:43:18.719 --> 00:43:23.519
All right, is it time for our sunscreen summary? Sounds good. Okay,
864
00:43:23.719 --> 00:43:25.440
so sunscreen summary.
865
00:43:26.409 --> 00:43:30.780
Does have chemicals in it, obviously. Some of them can
866
00:43:30.800 --> 00:43:33.099
get into our blood, but as far as we can tell,
867
00:43:33.119 --> 00:43:35.599
they're not causing harm while.
868
00:43:35.460 --> 00:43:38.679
They're there, at the doses that they're there.
869
00:43:39.679 --> 00:43:41.610
If you are worried about it, though, you can try
870
00:43:41.789 --> 00:43:45.289
mineral sunscreen, which is more likely to stay on the
871
00:43:45.489 --> 00:43:47.429
top of your skin and not go into your blood.
872
00:43:48.150 --> 00:43:53.590
Sunscreen does increase your risk of having vitamin D deficiency,
873
00:43:53.699 --> 00:43:58.659
which is Particularly concerning if you have darker skin, you're
874
00:43:58.679 --> 00:44:00.889
at a higher risk of that. On the other hand,
875
00:44:01.010 --> 00:44:03.090
if you have darker skin, you also don't need to
876
00:44:03.130 --> 00:44:03.590
worry so.
877
00:44:03.510 --> 00:44:04.650
Much about melanoma.
878
00:44:04.670 --> 00:44:09.010
And not great evidence that sunscreen can protect you from that.
879
00:44:09.170 --> 00:44:11.949
But if you have lighter skin, then sunscreen is going
880
00:44:11.969 --> 00:44:13.090
to protect you from skin cancer.
881
00:44:13.570 --> 00:44:14.429
Yeah, you got it.
882
00:44:14.429 --> 00:44:18.719
I think based on all of this, I'm going to
883
00:44:18.800 --> 00:44:20.880
keep wearing my sunscreen.
884
00:44:21.909 --> 00:44:24.469
But I am going to start taking a vitamin D supplement.
885
00:44:24.489 --> 00:44:24.570
Okay.
886
00:44:25.010 --> 00:44:26.130
Yeah, that's good.
887
00:44:26.510 --> 00:44:29.130
All right. We got a lightning round ready to go?
888
00:44:29.429 --> 00:44:29.670
Yes.
889
00:44:30.349 --> 00:44:33.590
Lightning round, lightning round. It's where we say some quick
890
00:44:33.690 --> 00:44:35.869
facts that can help you in your day.
891
00:44:37.550 --> 00:44:40.289
We've had a lot of questions about this, just the
892
00:44:40.530 --> 00:44:43.949
practicalities of sunscreen. If you're still on Team Sunscreen after
893
00:44:43.989 --> 00:44:48.449
listening to this episode, here's some tips and tricks about
894
00:44:48.780 --> 00:44:49.800
putting it on properly.
895
00:44:49.820 --> 00:44:50.559
Okay.
896
00:44:50.579 --> 00:44:50.820
Okay.
897
00:44:51.530 --> 00:44:52.909
When should you wear it?
898
00:44:52.909 --> 00:44:53.670
Okay.
899
00:44:53.849 --> 00:44:56.849
So if you open up your weather app, you will
900
00:44:56.909 --> 00:45:00.349
see a section that says UV index, basically telling you
901
00:45:01.090 --> 00:45:03.679
how strong the UV rays are that are coming through
902
00:45:04.070 --> 00:45:04.639
the atmosphere.
903
00:45:05.010 --> 00:45:05.340
Okay.
904
00:45:05.550 --> 00:45:07.840
Weather app. Here we go. Yeah.
905
00:45:08.320 --> 00:45:08.619
All right.
906
00:45:08.679 --> 00:45:13.880
So here's what I got. Melbourne, middle of winter, low
907
00:45:13.920 --> 00:45:15.650
all day. It's going to be one.
908
00:45:16.039 --> 00:45:18.420
So you actually, so like you need to wear sunscreen
909
00:45:18.699 --> 00:45:20.639
if the UV hits three or above.
910
00:45:21.219 --> 00:45:23.639
So today, you actually don't need to wear sunscreen.
911
00:45:25.000 --> 00:45:27.500
Next question, which SPF should you wear?
912
00:45:27.739 --> 00:45:34.469
So in Australia, they recommend SPF 50+. Other places recommend 30+. However,
913
00:45:34.510 --> 00:45:36.250
the dermatologist I spoke to said you might as well
914
00:45:36.309 --> 00:45:39.409
wear 50% because we know from studies that most of
915
00:45:39.469 --> 00:45:42.210
us are bad at putting on sunscreen. and that we
916
00:45:42.230 --> 00:45:43.769
don't put enough of it on.
917
00:45:43.789 --> 00:45:48.090
Okay, speaking of badly putting on sunscreen, even though I'm
918
00:45:48.190 --> 00:45:51.710
mad for it, I shove it on as soon as
919
00:45:51.769 --> 00:45:54.590
I leave the house. But I hear you need to
920
00:45:54.610 --> 00:45:56.670
put it on 20 minutes before.
921
00:45:56.829 --> 00:45:57.710
Is that real?
922
00:45:58.429 --> 00:45:59.030
You do.
923
00:45:59.750 --> 00:46:02.690
Yeah, it's fascinating because you actually need time for it
924
00:46:02.769 --> 00:46:06.889
to dry and set on your skin. It will adhere
925
00:46:06.929 --> 00:46:08.210
a little bit better, and then you're kind of like
926
00:46:08.309 --> 00:46:09.809
guaranteeing protection. Oh.
927
00:46:12.719 --> 00:46:13.420
All right.
928
00:46:13.679 --> 00:46:17.039
Do I need to wear it if I'm behind a window?
929
00:46:17.059 --> 00:46:18.619
It's surprising.
930
00:46:18.639 --> 00:46:23.110
The windows block some of the rays, but let's do
931
00:46:23.130 --> 00:46:25.130
a bit of UVA rays.
932
00:46:26.309 --> 00:46:29.409
Do you know there's a fascinating case report of a
933
00:46:29.469 --> 00:46:32.679
guy who was a truck driver.
934
00:46:32.219 --> 00:46:35.059
And for decades would drive.
935
00:46:36.039 --> 00:46:38.599
half of his face would be exposed to sun and
936
00:46:38.619 --> 00:46:41.239
the other half would be in the shade. And you can,
937
00:46:41.300 --> 00:46:45.570
it was published in a scientific journal because you could
938
00:46:45.739 --> 00:46:46.880
actually see.
939
00:46:46.739 --> 00:46:50.829
More wrinkles on the side of his face. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, yeah.
940
00:46:51.170 --> 00:46:53.030
So those UVA rays are getting through and we know
941
00:46:53.050 --> 00:46:56.630
that they're connected with signs of aging and also play
942
00:46:56.650 --> 00:46:58.289
like a little bit of role in skin cancer.
943
00:46:58.619 --> 00:47:01.119
Okay, last question. How much do you actually need to
944
00:47:01.159 --> 00:47:01.579
put on?
945
00:47:01.980 --> 00:47:04.900
So for the whole body, an easy guideline is one
946
00:47:05.179 --> 00:47:06.960
full shot glass of sunscreen.
947
00:47:07.079 --> 00:47:08.039
What about just the face?
948
00:47:08.420 --> 00:47:11.599
Yeah, so let me get out my measuring tool. I'm
949
00:47:11.619 --> 00:47:15.199
showing you a teaspoon, a 5-milliliter teaspoon, which is the
950
00:47:15.239 --> 00:47:16.059
same in U.S.
951
00:47:16.099 --> 00:47:16.579
And Australia.
952
00:47:17.699 --> 00:47:22.780
And the recommendation is one whole teaspoon for your face, ears,
953
00:47:22.840 --> 00:47:23.179
and neck.
954
00:47:24.440 --> 00:47:27.099
But for your whole body, you actually want seven of these.
955
00:47:28.380 --> 00:47:28.960
Thanks, Michelle.
956
00:47:29.420 --> 00:47:29.840
Thanks, Wendy.
957
00:47:30.280 --> 00:47:33.710
That's Science Versus. How many citations are in this week's episode?
958
00:47:34.010 --> 00:47:35.570
There are 92 citations.
959
00:47:36.050 --> 00:47:38.010
And if people want to see them in all their glory,
960
00:47:38.030 --> 00:47:40.090
learn more about the science of sunscreen, where should they go?
961
00:47:40.349 --> 00:47:42.650
Head over to our transcript that you can find in
962
00:47:42.670 --> 00:47:43.090
the show notes.
963
00:47:44.030 --> 00:47:46.360
This episode was produced by Michelle Dang, with help from
964
00:47:46.420 --> 00:47:49.760
Meryl Horne, Rose Rimler, and Akedi Foster-Keys. We're edited by
965
00:47:49.800 --> 00:47:53.760
Blythe Terrell, Wendy Zuckerman, that's me, I'm the executive producer.
966
00:47:53.780 --> 00:48:05.690
Science Versus is a Spotify Studios original.
967
00:48:05.730 --> 00:48:08.429
You can find us on Spotify. We are also on YouTube.
968
00:48:08.489 --> 00:48:10.010
You can like and subscribe.
969
00:48:10.130 --> 00:48:12.849
If you liked this episode, please share it with your friends.
970
00:48:13.309 --> 00:48:16.159
Helps other people know about the science in the world.
971
00:48:16.659 --> 00:48:18.460
I'm Wendy Zuckerman and I'll back to you next time.