Reframing Grief with Ashley Jones

WEBVTT
00:00:00.479 --> 00:00:08.320
Behind every mission, every movement, and every attempt to create change, there's a human story shaping how it all unfolds.
00:00:08.640 --> 00:00:09.199
I'm Dr.
00:00:09.359 --> 00:00:13.279
Pyle Berry, and this is Reframing Perspectives.
00:00:13.759 --> 00:00:26.239
This podcast is for those change makers, those purpose-led founders, nonprofit leaders, growth mindset individuals, and purpose-driven entrepreneurs who believe the work that they're doing in the world should actually make people's lives better.
00:00:26.960 --> 00:00:32.960
Each week, I'm sitting down change makers who are shaping impact in their industries and communities.
00:00:33.280 --> 00:00:43.439
And together, we're going to explore the moments, the questions, and the perspective shifts that changed how they lead, how they build relationships, and how they create meaningful change in our world.
00:00:44.479 --> 00:00:51.840
Welcome to Reframing Perspectives, the podcast for change makers who believe relationships are the real infrastructure of impact.
00:00:52.079 --> 00:00:54.799
Ashley, welcome to Reframing Perspectives.
00:00:55.039 --> 00:01:04.159
I this conversation, I think, is going to be so powerful because it's you talk about grief in such a powerful and unique perspective.
00:01:04.239 --> 00:01:08.079
And of course, with what you built with memento and the why behind it.
00:01:08.239 --> 00:01:33.920
And before we dive into any of that, I really want, really want to explore and just start off with the way that you your daughter and with Skylar, you know, what that was like losing her at 21 months and the process that you had to go through to recognize what it means to process grief for a life that didn't really get to live at the full potential.
00:01:34.079 --> 00:01:44.959
And I think that's the grief that so many parents, so many individuals hold on to versus the grief that is held on for someone who is a grandparent that loses their life.
00:01:45.200 --> 00:01:45.599
Yes.
00:01:46.159 --> 00:01:47.359
Thank you for having me.
00:01:47.439 --> 00:01:50.799
Uh I am honored to be here and have this conversation with you.
00:01:51.760 --> 00:02:00.719
I would say the hardest part for me and losing my daughter is one, to your point, it is out of the natural order of things.
00:02:00.879 --> 00:02:06.159
So it's very shocking, it's very challenging to process.
00:02:06.480 --> 00:02:14.240
Not only is it hard for me to process, but then no one in our society is taught how to handle grief as well or how to support others.
00:02:14.400 --> 00:02:22.560
And so I would go into public spaces, like even my church building, and people would look at me like I had a third eyeball and run the other way.
00:02:22.719 --> 00:02:26.159
Because it would be like, oh no, it's the mom who lost her daughter and I don't know what to say or do.
00:02:26.240 --> 00:02:27.280
So I'm just gonna run away.
00:02:27.439 --> 00:02:27.680
Right.
00:02:27.840 --> 00:02:28.159
Yeah.
00:02:28.319 --> 00:02:30.639
There's like such uncomfort with so much.
00:02:31.120 --> 00:02:36.319
I mean, even as even as a former clinical therapist, I'm so awkward around it.
00:02:36.479 --> 00:02:37.280
I really am.
00:02:37.439 --> 00:02:39.120
I'm not the person, don't come to the case.
00:02:39.280 --> 00:02:40.319
We all are, we all are.
00:02:40.479 --> 00:02:44.639
I mean, like the people who aren't, I mean, they are special people in the world.
00:02:44.800 --> 00:02:49.680
So like if you're listening to this and you're like, oh my gosh, I'm so awkward, like join the club, right?
00:02:49.759 --> 00:02:59.439
Because like I even just this last weekend interacted with someone that I know who had lost a spouse and it was a cancer that took him, you know, sooner than we had hoped.
00:02:59.520 --> 00:03:04.719
And I mean, as a quote unquote grief specialist, that I'm like, oh gosh, like, did I say the right thing?
00:03:04.879 --> 00:03:06.960
Like, you know, it's it's just it's just hard.
00:03:07.280 --> 00:03:13.199
But what I have learned is that if we show up with love and we show up with presence, right?
00:03:13.360 --> 00:03:17.759
Like those are the what I believe are the two most human things we can do.
00:03:17.919 --> 00:03:18.960
That's what matters.
00:03:19.199 --> 00:03:24.000
It's not about what you say or the actual things that you do, it's how you show up.
00:03:24.080 --> 00:03:26.000
And just to say, hey, I love you.
00:03:26.159 --> 00:03:27.439
I'm here for you, right?
00:03:27.520 --> 00:03:29.280
And I'm, I want to be here.
00:03:29.439 --> 00:03:42.319
And and to hold space and be a grounded, calm, loving person instead of like an anxious or fearful or, you know, like you don't need to bring that kind of chaotic energy into that space.
00:03:42.479 --> 00:03:50.000
Someone needs just a safe, grounded place to be and to hold that space in case they do need to unravel in that moment, right?
00:03:50.240 --> 00:03:58.319
So for me, when I was thinking about Skylar after she had died and just how to process that, I was lost, truly.
00:03:58.479 --> 00:04:03.919
And I was like looking to other adults, and all the adults were running other directions.
00:04:04.080 --> 00:04:09.520
And it was like, oh my gosh, like we have been dying for thousands of years, right?
00:04:09.759 --> 00:04:11.199
Like literally crazy.
00:04:11.280 --> 00:04:17.519
This is crazy that this is like the most guaranteed event in our life, right?
00:04:17.759 --> 00:04:20.959
And everyone's running from it and no one has any guidance.
00:04:21.120 --> 00:04:24.560
I was like, we have prototypes for flying cars.
00:04:24.720 --> 00:04:26.639
Like, like this is nuts.
00:04:26.720 --> 00:04:28.879
Like, this is such a human experience.
00:04:29.040 --> 00:04:33.199
And why do we not have better support tools and better innovations?
00:04:33.360 --> 00:04:37.600
And like the books that I'm being given are from like the 60s and the 80s.
00:04:37.920 --> 00:04:42.879
And like, you know, like they have some helpful things, but it wasn't incredibly helpful.
00:04:43.040 --> 00:04:58.959
And then I also, so you know, for those listening, my background, um I wanted to be a doctor when I was growing up and went to camp biotech, went to Clemson University under biochemistry, like thought I was gonna go into research and radiology and all the things.
00:04:59.120 --> 00:05:02.959
And then I learned you had to cut on dead people, like even if you didn't want to be a surgeon.
00:05:03.040 --> 00:05:04.000
And I was like, I'm out.
00:05:04.240 --> 00:05:05.680
I was like, that's it, deal breaker.
00:05:05.839 --> 00:05:10.720
I was like, I was gonna push through calculus, but I am not pushing through uh cadaver surgeries.
00:05:10.879 --> 00:05:22.879
Um, I switched and and ended up going into graphic communications because I also had this very artistic side of me, the photography and the art and the, you know, writing and everything that I loved on the creative side.
00:05:23.040 --> 00:05:26.079
So anyway, that was a hard, you know, flip in in college.
00:05:26.319 --> 00:05:34.160
But because of that, I love science and I love research, and I still have that part of me that's very active.
00:05:34.319 --> 00:05:41.519
And so when our hospice team gave us the pamphlet on the five stages of grief, I was like, this something isn't right.
00:05:41.680 --> 00:05:44.079
Like there's something that's not clicking here.
00:05:44.240 --> 00:05:45.519
Let me go to the research.
00:05:45.680 --> 00:05:52.560
So I looked at Elizabeth Kugler-Ross's research and discovered that it was meant for people dying.
00:05:52.800 --> 00:05:55.759
Her research was the five stages of death and dying.
00:05:55.920 --> 00:06:09.839
And so, because it was a breakthrough research at that time and no one had really researched grief up until that point, that her research, or at least not like widely accepted, her research was taken and then misapplied to everything, right?
00:06:10.079 --> 00:06:16.319
So instead of just for people facing a terminal diagnosis, it was like, oh, you lost someone here, the five stages of grief.
00:06:16.399 --> 00:06:18.319
Oh, you went through a divorce here, the five stages of grief.
00:06:18.560 --> 00:06:27.360
Like it was just was put everywhere, which did a huge disservice to our society because so many people feel like they're doing grief wrong because they're not going through the five stages.
00:06:27.439 --> 00:06:31.040
And I'm like, they were never meant for you, like abandon ship, you know.
00:06:31.120 --> 00:06:33.680
Like, and so when I got to that research, I was like, wow.
00:06:33.839 --> 00:06:37.439
One, it was really comforting because I was like, oh, I'm not doing grief wrong, you know.
00:06:37.600 --> 00:06:40.480
Two, it was like, what else have we gotten wrong?
00:06:40.639 --> 00:06:46.800
You know, like if we've totally just taken this and misapplied it everywhere, what else are we doing that's not incredibly right?
00:06:47.040 --> 00:06:50.720
So part of me was just sitting with the photographs that we had.
00:06:50.879 --> 00:06:55.839
So Skylar was diagnosed with a terminal condition called spinomuscular atrophy at two months old.
00:06:56.000 --> 00:06:59.439
And she went on hospice the first time at 10 months old.
00:06:59.519 --> 00:07:04.399
And then we had a researcher step in and take over her care, which doubled her life.
00:07:04.480 --> 00:07:07.680
And so we didn't say goodbye until she was 20, almost 21 months old.
00:07:07.839 --> 00:07:08.079
Wow.
00:07:08.319 --> 00:07:10.800
Yeah, it was really, really amazing.
00:07:11.120 --> 00:07:17.839
So because of that, I had a lot of anticipatory grief, you know, and like I thought I was gonna lose her at 10 months old.
00:07:17.920 --> 00:07:22.240
And then we got the second kind of chance to see her develop more of a personality.
00:07:22.399 --> 00:07:26.319
And during that time, a friend of ours had gifted us a professional portrait session.
00:07:26.399 --> 00:07:30.160
And when she died, those photos were so painful, I had to turn them all face down.
00:07:30.319 --> 00:07:38.560
Like my heart, every time I looked at them, knowing that I had just buried her, like my heart couldn't handle the dissonance of her not being alive anymore.
00:07:38.720 --> 00:07:40.319
So I just had to turn them all face down.
00:07:40.480 --> 00:07:48.160
But then, like, I missed her so much after just like a week or two of not seeing her face at all and, you know, around the house or whatever.
00:07:48.240 --> 00:07:52.240
And and that longing outweighed the pain.
00:07:52.399 --> 00:07:59.360
And so I turned them one by one, you know, face back up so that I could see them around the living room and in her nursery and like all the things.
00:07:59.600 --> 00:08:09.839
So the other thing I noticed within the first year was that those photographs gave me such a safe space to grieve and really feel things, right?
00:08:09.920 --> 00:08:12.560
So I could sit with those photos and ugly cry.
00:08:12.720 --> 00:08:15.759
I could sit with those photos and tell her how much I missed her.
00:08:15.920 --> 00:08:31.519
They allowed me to really deepen the continuing bonds that I had, even after she was physically gone from my house, from my life, from my room, and gave my brain space to reckon with her being gone physically from my life.
00:08:31.680 --> 00:08:36.000
And I keep saying physically because I do believe spiritually and energetically she's still with me.
00:08:36.240 --> 00:08:39.919
But it took time to make peace with that, right?
00:08:40.000 --> 00:08:42.879
It took time for my brain to really process that.
00:08:43.279 --> 00:08:46.879
And when I look back, I was like, wow, feeling is healing.
00:08:47.039 --> 00:08:56.879
Like if we could just sit and feel and let these feelings up and ugly cry and say things that we are holding inside and and all of this, like that is what is healing.
00:08:56.960 --> 00:08:59.519
And so to grieve, we have to feel.
00:08:59.600 --> 00:09:02.159
And to feel, we have to be present with whatever we're feeling.
00:09:02.320 --> 00:09:08.159
And in a society that rewards distraction and disconnection and busyness and productivity, that's really, really hard.
00:09:08.320 --> 00:09:12.960
And so for me, it was like, wow, maybe I can give this gift to other people.
00:09:13.039 --> 00:09:19.279
Because at the time I had gotten into photography and was like, I can I can do portrait sessions for anyone facing a terminal diagnosis.
00:09:19.360 --> 00:09:20.480
Like this is an easy gift.
00:09:20.639 --> 00:09:23.360
And this was the most healing gift that I was given.
00:09:23.519 --> 00:09:28.480
And so maybe photographs are the way forward to help people when we know there's time, right?
00:09:28.639 --> 00:09:34.799
So obviously, sudden accidents, you know, aneurysms, things where it's just sudden, we don't, we don't know.
00:09:35.039 --> 00:09:46.799
But when we know we have time, we can preserve these memories and really focus on sharing that love and creating almost like that external hard drive of a photograph to help trigger your memory.
00:09:46.960 --> 00:10:01.759
Cause even now it's been 15 years that I can look back at that photograph and still almost feel her peach buzz head, or, you know, see those bright blue eyes and stare into them when my memory is starting to fade, you know.
00:10:02.000 --> 00:10:05.759
And so that photo is such a gift on so many levels.
00:10:06.000 --> 00:10:15.840
And over the last decade, it has evolved with my grief and brought me so much more joy and connection versus in the early days when it was a lot more pain, right?
00:10:16.000 --> 00:10:21.360
And so as I've healed, the photos have healed and supported my journey with me, which I think is so beautiful.
00:10:21.519 --> 00:10:35.519
So that's what led me to start the nonprofit and explore what other tools and how can we support one another and how do we innovate in an um, I don't even like calling it an industry because it's human, right?
00:10:35.600 --> 00:10:41.519
It's like, how do we innovate this very human experience to help ourselves process this better?
00:10:41.679 --> 00:10:48.240
But then also how do we empower other people to step in and support us when we're going through hard times?
00:10:48.480 --> 00:11:01.440
There's so many moments that you talk about in that relationship between continuing to experience that person and also what you talk about with our culture and the way that we are.
00:11:01.600 --> 00:11:10.080
So you started talking about how adults were just like runaway because it's this awkward, like, oh, how do we, how do we talk to this person and we don't know.
00:11:10.240 --> 00:11:14.320
And I think that speaks so much to your point of well, two things.
00:11:14.480 --> 00:11:19.279
One is that I don't think humans can actually process death.
00:11:19.440 --> 00:11:26.399
I think that there is actually a disconnect for the brain that it doesn't fully understand and grasp like what death is.
00:11:26.559 --> 00:11:32.480
Like we, we understand it, we know that it happens, we know that there is like to your point, nothing else in life is guaranteed.
00:11:32.639 --> 00:11:39.279
Your health, your wealth, your whatever, but your career, but death, guaranteed, you know, exit pen is there.
00:11:39.360 --> 00:11:42.320
Um, but we can't actually process that.
00:11:42.480 --> 00:11:56.399
And I wonder how much of that has created this awkwardness of, you know, I feel like you should almost start an awkward grief club, but it's just can join that everyone can join.
00:11:56.720 --> 00:12:20.799
But because everyone also processes it so differently, because we haven't learned how to stay present with it, how to stay in the moment with that, I think that there's so much of understanding culturally about how we recognize and give more, give more value and give more attention to the fact that these aren't things that should be dismissed.
00:12:20.879 --> 00:12:28.720
You know, when I think about the grief that you may have for a parent loss, for a friend loss, for any kind of loss that we have in our life.
00:12:28.879 --> 00:12:40.480
And what you say so beautifully is that there's this, there's a societal conditioning of thinking about grief as in it has to change or you have to like release and you have to remove and you have to move on from.
00:12:41.679 --> 00:12:46.960
And the way that you share it is more about how does your love just transition with you.
00:12:47.360 --> 00:12:50.960
And I think that that is really an important note.
00:12:51.360 --> 00:13:04.399
So that it's because I think that the former of now you can release, or like, how do you move on from it is speaking to that cultural piece that we're talking about where it's like buried under the rug, like just don't deal with it, don't talk about it, right?
00:13:04.480 --> 00:13:07.919
It's like the nice like white picket house fence, everything's beautiful on the outside.
00:13:08.080 --> 00:13:10.799
Just don't go inside that door because it's pretty dark in there, right?
00:13:11.039 --> 00:13:15.919
So it's what you're asking of is to actually like, no, it's okay.
00:13:16.080 --> 00:13:25.759
It's okay that you're you're carrying the grief with you and allowing yourself and it it releases shame, it releases criticism, it releases a lot of that.
00:13:25.919 --> 00:13:29.759
I should be doing it, I should be over it, I should be like all of these pieces.
00:13:29.840 --> 00:13:31.120
And it's like, why should you?
00:13:31.279 --> 00:13:34.639
Like this was an actual person that mattered in your life.
00:13:34.879 --> 00:13:36.879
Yes, yes, so much, yes.
00:13:37.120 --> 00:13:42.240
So I have um a book that's coming out March 31st called When You Can't See the Light.
00:13:42.320 --> 00:13:45.519
And it's a trauma-informed guide to surviving a significant loss.
00:13:45.679 --> 00:13:52.240
And I literally step in and say, I am so sorry you are going through this loss right now.
00:13:52.399 --> 00:13:54.879
And there's nothing I can say to take away your pain.
00:13:55.039 --> 00:13:56.240
Like you're gonna feel the pain.
00:13:56.320 --> 00:13:57.679
There's no shortcut to grief.
00:13:57.840 --> 00:14:08.000
But I am here to help you walk through it every day to focus on little bite-sized pieces to help you support your body, to help support your mind, to help support your heart.
00:14:08.159 --> 00:14:11.120
And we go through different things to focus on each day.
00:14:11.279 --> 00:14:13.840
You can come back, you can move through the book as you wish.
00:14:13.919 --> 00:14:17.840
And one of the sub chapters in there is surrendering the shoulds, right?
00:14:17.919 --> 00:14:21.120
And releasing expectation and stop shoulding on yourself.
00:14:21.360 --> 00:14:35.039
Because it's like you can easily bury yourself in shoulds of I should have done this, or I should have done that, I should have said this, or I shouldn't be picking out his casket right now, or, you know, like whatever it is, even in the negative, right?
00:14:35.120 --> 00:14:36.799
That I shouldn't be here alone.
00:14:37.039 --> 00:14:47.519
Or it's like that is such a disconnect from your reality that you can't actually be present when you're shooting on yourself because you're trying to force yourself into a different reality.
00:14:47.759 --> 00:14:55.279
And so with I always joke around that I feel like I have been sent to this earth to be the PR person for grief.
00:14:55.600 --> 00:14:58.960
Because so many people are like, grief is so awful.
00:14:59.039 --> 00:15:01.200
It's the worst feeling in the world, blah, blah, blah.
00:15:01.360 --> 00:15:03.519
And I'm like, grief is actually the healing process.
00:15:03.600 --> 00:15:05.360
Like grieving is healing, right?
00:15:05.440 --> 00:15:15.600
So it's not this bad guy that we need to like shove in the back closet or like lock out of our house is here to help us.
00:15:15.759 --> 00:15:17.200
What sucks is the loss.
00:15:17.360 --> 00:15:19.679
What sucks is the separation, right?
00:15:19.840 --> 00:15:22.799
That we are no longer together with something that we loved.
00:15:22.960 --> 00:15:26.559
Whether yeah, physically or even a dream, right?
00:15:26.799 --> 00:15:28.320
The hope of a relationship.
00:15:28.480 --> 00:15:31.679
Like it can be so many different things that cause grief.
00:15:31.919 --> 00:15:36.159
But when we have that separation, we're focusing on the lack, right?
00:15:36.240 --> 00:15:38.159
Like I don't have this person anymore.
00:15:38.399 --> 00:15:39.679
This sucks, right?
00:15:39.840 --> 00:15:43.919
And this is where, you know, you brought up about this idea of love transforming.
00:15:44.080 --> 00:15:46.080
I truly believe that love is never lost.
00:15:46.159 --> 00:15:47.279
It's just transformed.
00:15:47.440 --> 00:15:52.879
And so when a person dies, their love, their energy doesn't just disappear.
00:15:53.039 --> 00:15:59.759
And what's really cool is the way that I've thought about it with my daughter is I used to feel really, really sad.
00:16:00.000 --> 00:16:10.080
Like for the first bunch of years after she died, like even on her birthday, especially, I would just be so depressed and lay in bed all day and just eat a whole pan of brownies by myself.
00:16:10.159 --> 00:16:14.559
You know, it's just like uh, whatever I can do to just like make this day go by faster.
00:16:14.720 --> 00:16:18.000
Yeah, comfort and just like, can we please just wake up tomorrow?
00:16:18.240 --> 00:16:30.639
But in the low, I realized I was focusing on she's not here, I don't have anything to celebrate, we don't have milestones or life or anything that's like happening next to be happy about.
00:16:30.720 --> 00:16:32.399
And so that's why I'm so sad, right?
00:16:32.559 --> 00:16:44.320
But if I can refocus on she's still able to love me from the realm wherever she is right now, and I'm still loving her, like my love didn't go anywhere either.
00:16:44.480 --> 00:16:48.320
But what happened was Skylar was a finite being, right?
00:16:48.480 --> 00:16:51.679
She had skin, she had edges, she had boundaries.
00:16:51.840 --> 00:16:53.919
When she died, all of that went away.
00:16:54.080 --> 00:17:02.399
And I hate the phrase grief is love with nowhere to go, because as poetic as it sounds, it's simply not true, right?
00:17:02.639 --> 00:17:05.119
Because I can choose where that love goes now.
00:17:05.359 --> 00:17:06.720
Yes, the body is gone.
00:17:06.880 --> 00:17:14.079
I don't have Skylar to direct that love to as a person, but now my love is boundless, right?
00:17:14.160 --> 00:17:18.400
I have all this unconditional love that I can direct wherever I want it to go.
00:17:18.960 --> 00:17:25.759
And so I've redirected it into building the nonprofit and redirected it into all the families that we've served.
00:17:25.839 --> 00:17:34.000
And I've redirected it into my book and I've redirected all of this pure unconditional love into showing up for the world, right?
00:17:34.319 --> 00:17:37.839
And and still being a mother, but mothering other things.
00:17:38.000 --> 00:17:42.880
And so for those who don't know, Skylar was my only child and her condition was genetic.
00:17:42.960 --> 00:17:49.440
And so the loss, the secondary loss that we experienced was we weren't gonna have any more kids because of the genetic component.
00:17:49.599 --> 00:17:49.920
Right.
00:17:50.079 --> 00:17:56.880
So it was like, wow, that just and and I had her so young, we were my husband and I were surprised as young parents with a pregnancy.
00:17:56.960 --> 00:17:59.759
It was kind of one of those, like, oops, I guess we'll be young parents.
00:18:00.000 --> 00:18:06.640
Um, and and so then it was like she was born when I was 25 and then died when I was 27.
00:18:06.799 --> 00:18:07.039
Wow.
00:18:07.200 --> 00:18:14.319
And so it was like this, yeah, this experience of, hey, at 27, my family's done, right?
00:18:14.480 --> 00:18:18.960
I can adopt if I choose to in the future, but like biologically, like we're done.
00:18:19.200 --> 00:18:32.799
So those losses um definitely compound and are things to process, but it was it was still this freeing realization that all of my love for my daughter was still there.
00:18:32.960 --> 00:18:36.319
And now it could be redirected and and repurposed elsewhere.
00:18:36.480 --> 00:18:38.559
And it would still go to her, right?
00:18:38.720 --> 00:18:42.400
But it just didn't have the bounds of just for her anymore.
00:18:42.559 --> 00:18:49.680
And so one of the things I tell people a lot too is this love is is a an energy that's exchanged.
00:18:49.759 --> 00:18:56.799
And so ask, ask your loved one for signs, you know, ask for them to show up, ask for them to feel their presence.
00:18:56.960 --> 00:19:02.400
Like, you know, there's still this active component, even though they're not physically here.
00:19:02.640 --> 00:19:09.279
And sometimes when you're feeling sad about missing them, that might actually be them trying to just like be with you.
00:19:09.359 --> 00:19:19.839
And and you're feeling sad because you recognize their presence, but you're recognizing it as they're no longer here when really they're here spiritually and you just don't recognize it, right?
00:19:20.240 --> 00:19:25.839
So there's there's a beautiful spiritual component that is still a mystery, right?
00:19:26.079 --> 00:19:26.559
Of death.
00:19:26.640 --> 00:19:31.200
And I think that's part of why our brains can't process it because we're like, where do they go?
00:19:31.440 --> 00:19:32.720
How come I still feel them?
00:19:32.880 --> 00:19:33.680
But they're not here.
00:19:33.759 --> 00:19:35.920
Like, I don't, I can't make sense of it all, right?
00:19:36.079 --> 00:19:39.680
So um, I do think there's this beautiful spiritual mystery.
00:19:39.839 --> 00:19:52.880
I do think there's this beautiful spiritual mystery part of it that is also an energetic and love-based exchange that is I'm still, you know, exploring and and learning about that is really powerful.
00:19:53.200 --> 00:20:21.039
That part of that Skylar was a physical being that had boundaries, had shape, had skin, but her essence of what she represented has lived on through the nonprofit, through, and I see that as almost where your defining moment of your purpose and Skylar coming into your life were clearly so tied together.
00:20:21.359 --> 00:20:36.400
And how that then ultimately you've you've had the courage to manifest that for the way that you show up then for other communities and family members and helping them reshape their relationship to love and grief.
00:20:36.559 --> 00:20:55.839
And I think that what you said is so powerful of to in your 20s to have to go from, oh my God, we're having a family so early and we're gonna be young parents to we're losing our only child, and now we're not gonna have kids, biological kids within two years.
00:20:56.240 --> 00:20:57.599
Well, three years total, right?
00:20:57.759 --> 00:20:59.839
Like pregnancy to loss.
00:21:00.000 --> 00:21:05.839
And so in three years, your entire life is completely flipped upside down.
00:21:06.000 --> 00:21:06.319
Yes.
00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:12.880
And that happens where it's for so many people, and and we can manifest that in different ways because of our coping strategies.
00:21:12.960 --> 00:21:18.880
It's either you're going to then say, okay, what does this look like for me to then move with this?
00:21:19.920 --> 00:21:33.279
Or, you know, it's carrying the anger of it, and then how that ends up manifesting in different ways as well resentment, bitterness, you end up isolating yourself from society, from community that could really be there for you.
00:21:33.519 --> 00:21:47.920
And what I find really powerful in what you're talking about is that if we can reshape that relationship and recognize that your loss may be of the physical part of it, but if you hold on to the spirit of that.
00:21:48.000 --> 00:22:03.200
And I think of this where, you know, when I lost my maternal grandmother, she was such a force to be reckoned with and such a powerful, beautiful presence in our family that was truly the Matriarch has gone through so much, like the humor was amazing, everything.
00:22:03.359 --> 00:22:05.039
And I felt really, really connected to her.
00:22:05.119 --> 00:22:07.839
We had the same birthday 60 years apart.
00:22:07.920 --> 00:22:12.880
So of course, I was convinced myself that out of the 17 grandkids, I'm her favorite.
00:22:13.039 --> 00:22:13.759
Absolutely.
00:22:14.000 --> 00:22:14.880
Absolutely.
00:22:15.279 --> 00:22:18.000
But I named my company after her.
00:22:18.079 --> 00:22:20.240
The RK are her initials.
00:22:20.400 --> 00:22:28.240
And one question I like to ask others is what is the legacy that you hope to keep alive through that?
00:22:28.400 --> 00:22:46.640
And what my intention for that is, is we're not necessarily focusing on this, like, oh, we're going to have the statue of this person, we're going to have some accompany, you know, a hospital wing named after this person, but it's more about what you're talking about is how are you going to have the impact in your community around it?
00:22:46.799 --> 00:22:50.960
How are you going to carry the essence of that person through this?
00:22:51.119 --> 00:23:02.799
And so whether they were a 21-month-old child or a 91-year-old grandparent, they carry a spark and they carry an essence.
00:23:02.880 --> 00:23:04.960
And that's what you remember, that's what you miss.
00:23:05.119 --> 00:23:12.000
And so when you're able to pass that on, I think that's such a beautiful way of helping to reshape our relationship to grief.
00:23:12.160 --> 00:23:20.480
And I think right now as well, when we look at society and the way that it's just so broken, there's layers of grief that is continuously happening on a daily basis.
00:23:20.640 --> 00:23:32.880
Like grief of communities just not getting along, of human to human just being able to not see ourselves for the compassion that we all hold for, you know, within ourselves, the defeat that we feel.
00:23:33.039 --> 00:23:33.200
Yeah.
00:23:33.359 --> 00:23:53.680
And so what you're talking about is even, I can imagine this within a family, the grief of, you know, when when a family stops talking to each other and, you know, relationships break, or the or the grief of thinking and I idealizing a a type of life that you were hoping to have, and then having to come to terms with that's not going to be the life that you have.
00:23:53.839 --> 00:23:54.079
Yeah.
00:23:54.319 --> 00:23:58.880
What you're creating is really about helping that person find peace with it all.
00:23:59.599 --> 00:23:59.920
Yeah.
00:24:00.160 --> 00:24:02.079
And, you know, it's interesting.
00:24:02.319 --> 00:24:05.279
The nonprofit went through a rebrand a few years ago.
00:24:05.440 --> 00:24:11.920
And one of my board chair, one of his ideas was this idea of the phrase making peace with grief.
00:24:12.079 --> 00:24:19.920
You know, it's like, how do you like again, it's like we're taught to avoid it, to run from it, to numb out, to dissociate.
00:24:20.079 --> 00:24:22.480
You know, how do we make peace with it?
00:24:22.720 --> 00:24:29.680
And part of what I talk about when I, whenever I have the opportunity, is this idea of what healing is.
00:24:30.000 --> 00:24:37.440
Because a lot of times people assume wrongly that healing is trying to get back to who you were before the loss.
00:24:37.519 --> 00:24:39.039
And that's not possible, right?
00:24:39.279 --> 00:24:42.079
Especially if it's a significant loss, like you're forever changed.
00:24:42.160 --> 00:24:45.279
Like I am never gonna be the person I was before Skylar.
00:24:45.359 --> 00:24:47.839
Nor would I want to be, honestly, but that's a different story.
00:24:48.160 --> 00:24:57.680
But healing is really about embracing, embracing that pain and embracing the discomfort and saying, I'm wounded, right?
00:24:57.839 --> 00:25:09.119
And I feel this hurt, like this hurts, and acknowledging it and saying, wow, like instead of running from this, I'm gonna sit with this, I'm gonna understand why I'm feeling it.
00:25:09.200 --> 00:25:15.039
And then I'm gonna learn how to integrate it into my being so that I can be whole again.
00:25:15.200 --> 00:25:33.200
Because a lot of times losses, whether it's a traumatic loss or a job loss or a house loss or a death or whatever it is, if we run from it or if we don't fully feel it, it can cause a disconnection inside of us and it can cause us to become fragmented.
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:37.759
And a lot of people have unresolved grief and trauma from childhood, right?
00:25:37.920 --> 00:25:39.200
Like go way back.
00:25:39.440 --> 00:25:44.000
And people can tell you, like it was yesterday, about a time where they were wounded.
00:25:44.160 --> 00:25:56.640
And oftentimes I find that those people haven't fully sat with it because at the time maybe they didn't have the tools, they didn't have the support, they didn't have their current self to be able to go back and say, wow, that was really wrong.
00:25:56.799 --> 00:26:01.200
I'm so sorry that happened to you, and like sit with it and feel it and process it.
00:26:01.359 --> 00:26:04.640
But now as an adult, you do have that ability, right?
00:26:04.799 --> 00:26:12.240
And so this idea of integration is like going back into those places and staying present, staying present with that pain and saying, that was wrong.
00:26:12.400 --> 00:26:15.680
And it was, it was, that was a hurt that you need to feel.
00:26:15.839 --> 00:26:18.720
And now we're gonna reconnect with that place.
00:26:18.880 --> 00:26:24.079
Maybe it's your five-year-old self or your 14-year-old self or your 27-year-old self, right?
00:26:24.160 --> 00:26:26.799
That it's like, we're gonna reconnect that place.
00:26:26.960 --> 00:26:31.519
We're now that's no longer a fragment that we're trying to shove out of our life.
00:26:31.680 --> 00:26:43.200
We're gonna embrace it and be whole in all of the versions of ourselves and have what you talk about so beautifully is like this compassion for yourself, the empathy for others to say, you know what?
00:26:43.359 --> 00:26:46.160
I was so little when that happened, I didn't know any better.
00:26:46.319 --> 00:26:47.759
I didn't know how to process.
00:26:47.839 --> 00:26:50.640
I didn't know what regulation of my nervous system was.
00:26:50.799 --> 00:26:52.160
I didn't know all these things.
00:26:52.319 --> 00:26:57.680
And then this empathy for others, like maybe it was a parent where you're like, man, they were working two jobs, they were stressed.
00:26:57.759 --> 00:27:00.880
You have all this empathy for others where it doesn't excuse their behavior.
00:27:01.039 --> 00:27:04.799
But as an adult, now you can understand maybe why it happened, right?
00:27:04.960 --> 00:27:05.200
Right.
00:27:05.359 --> 00:27:09.440
And then you say, okay, so I had this loss or this traumatic experience or whatever.
00:27:09.599 --> 00:27:12.480
And so I have compassion for myself, the empathy for others.
00:27:12.640 --> 00:27:20.400
And then you go in and you say, okay, so instead of running from this or making up stories that aren't true, I'm gonna sit with this and understand what it was.
00:27:20.480 --> 00:27:27.839
And then it's my responsibility to heal and to integrate this into loving this part of myself because I need to love my whole self.
00:27:28.240 --> 00:27:33.599
And so, how do we love our whole self when we're ignoring and running from pieces of our past self?
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:46.480
And so it's really this idea of integration of healing is becoming whole again, not trying to return to who we were in our past selves or trying to get to some future self that doesn't exist yet, but just integrating into the wholeness of who we are in this very moment.
00:27:46.640 --> 00:27:46.880
Wow.
00:27:46.960 --> 00:27:50.319
First of all, I love how you just tied my framework into the work that you do.
00:27:50.480 --> 00:27:51.839
That's so amazing.
00:27:52.079 --> 00:27:58.799
And second is I think you touched on something really important, is if we even think about as a society, right?
00:27:59.039 --> 00:28:04.000
COVID happened 2020, literally six six years ago now, which is wild.
00:28:04.160 --> 00:28:22.000
And I genuinely believe that in these six years and why things have felt so heavy is because I think people are trying to, there's a cognitive dissonance of this world that existed pre-COVID and what we were like, and all the things that have happened since.
00:28:22.720 --> 00:28:23.039
Yeah.
00:28:23.279 --> 00:28:33.119
We, in a way, there's a it was a traumatic, you know, episode that occurred in global like worlds, community society.
00:28:33.359 --> 00:28:42.720
We didn't have a say in it, we didn't have any authority around it, we were helpless to some account, and then the world just completely flipped.
00:28:42.880 --> 00:28:46.640
And now we have to operate in this world that just feels so foreign.
00:28:46.880 --> 00:28:52.640
We haven't collectively had an opportunity to grieve what happened in this transition.
00:28:53.039 --> 00:28:54.480
Yet Guy is here.
00:28:54.559 --> 00:29:11.440
So we're moving at the speed of light in other ways, and we're like, wait a second, we haven't even figured out how to be with each other in this moment because we're also during COVID and during everything that happened, there was like ripples of strains that came up because now everyone was grounded.
00:29:11.519 --> 00:29:12.240
That's what I like to say.
00:29:12.319 --> 00:29:21.359
It's COVID is like the like, you know, God or universe or whatever you believe grounded us as humans, and we went how we had to go indoors for like nine months while the world thrived again.
00:29:21.680 --> 00:29:22.480
Earth thrived.
00:29:22.640 --> 00:29:25.279
I always say this is my this is my itty e moment tangent.
00:29:25.440 --> 00:29:31.680
Earth will be fine, animals will be fine, everything will be fine, humans will be extinct because we'll do this to ourselves.
00:29:31.920 --> 00:29:32.240
Yes.
00:29:32.400 --> 00:29:42.160
But that moment was, you know, God or universe grounding us and sending us to our rooms to show us the the the savage craziness that we create in this world.
00:29:42.480 --> 00:29:47.359
And part of that being this like inability to see ourselves.
00:29:47.599 --> 00:29:53.599
And I think there's a loss of what we have experienced societally, or societally.
00:29:53.839 --> 00:29:55.279
I don't know if that's I know, yeah.
00:29:57.359 --> 00:30:12.559
But whatever, you know, this grief that we are experiencing together as a society and our unwillingness to or unknowingly how to process that while still just trying to it's draining.
00:30:12.799 --> 00:30:13.519
Yeah, for sure.
00:30:13.759 --> 00:30:21.279
I mean, so this is where uh I fully agree with you that COVID was this forced timeout, right?
00:30:21.519 --> 00:30:24.400
Of okay, let's pause.
00:30:24.559 --> 00:30:26.240
It was a giant pause button, it felt like.
00:30:26.480 --> 00:30:30.400
Obviously, with a lot of trauma and grief, as you mentioned, for all the reasons that you said.
00:30:30.480 --> 00:30:45.440
And then obviously we were losing people at alarming rates, and then the trauma of, you know, medical staffers not knowing what was happening, potentially risking their lives, you know, so much, so much job loss, like all the domino effects of loss.
00:30:45.599 --> 00:30:47.599
So there was there's so much that happened.
00:30:47.759 --> 00:31:15.359
And unfortunately, we, at least in America, because I can't speak to the other experiences around the world of their leaders and how they led their countries and stuff like that, but we did not have mindful leaders who were able to walk us through mindfully with a peaceful, calm presence in a way that honored the fear and the panic and the trauma and the emotions that we were all experiencing.
00:31:15.519 --> 00:31:26.559
And I think part of that is obviously we live in a capitalistic world, which I'm not saying is bad, it just has consequences where productivity and profits are the priority.
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:27.039
Right.
00:31:27.279 --> 00:31:33.839
I think the other piece that is so hard is grief begs us to slow down.
00:31:34.559 --> 00:31:36.559
COVID was a time of grief for sure.
00:31:36.640 --> 00:31:41.279
Like we were grieving so much, whether you recognized it or not, it was grief.
00:31:41.519 --> 00:31:51.599
Um and and grief begs us to slow down and reprioritize and really take account of what we have in our lives that's working and what's not working.
00:31:51.759 --> 00:31:56.000
And I think if anything good could come from COVID, that was that was it, right?
00:31:56.079 --> 00:31:57.920
That we had time to re-evaluate.
00:31:58.079 --> 00:32:00.720
And so many people were like, yeah, we're not going in the office.
00:32:00.799 --> 00:32:04.640
We're wasting time commuting when we could be home with our families, right?
00:32:04.880 --> 00:32:08.480
Like, we're not going back to all this work travel because we don't have to.
00:32:08.640 --> 00:32:11.039
Like we managed fine over Zoom, right?
00:32:11.200 --> 00:32:24.799
And so there are like all these good things that came of it of like reevaluating and reprioritizing time and like connection, and I'm gonna spend it with my family, or you know, some families were like, oh no, we need to travel and be a part.
00:32:25.039 --> 00:32:25.440
Yeah.
00:32:25.680 --> 00:32:30.319
But like there were there were just so many opportunities for reevaluation.
00:32:30.480 --> 00:32:49.119
I think the struggle which you mentioned is no one helped us process the grief and the compounding grief that we experienced, let alone to be forced into a return in lots of different ways, and having trauma after trauma after trauma after trauma to this day, like daily traumas now.
00:32:49.359 --> 00:32:52.640
It's not just like a COVID happened and it was like a one-time trauma.
00:32:52.799 --> 00:33:10.880
It's like COVID happened, and then the war in Ukraine happened, and then it's like there are bombings in, you know, Syria, there are bombings in Palestine, there are bombings in like there's so many like news, like truly traumatic news footage hitting us every single day.
00:33:11.119 --> 00:33:13.759
Then we are not beginning to have this.
00:33:14.079 --> 00:33:22.000
Then we have school shootings, then we have like, you know, random news that they have to fear monger you because that's how they get clicks.
00:33:22.079 --> 00:33:25.279
And that's again the profit and the capitalistic side of it, right?
00:33:25.440 --> 00:33:27.279
And that's also how social media works.
00:33:27.440 --> 00:33:32.000
That the more angry and upset and fearful they can make you, the more you're engaged.
00:33:32.240 --> 00:33:41.200
And so if we can start to understand that the government and companies profit over our mental unwellness, right?
00:33:41.359 --> 00:33:43.119
Like, how messed up is that?
00:33:43.279 --> 00:33:43.599
Yeah.
00:33:43.680 --> 00:33:43.839
Yeah.
00:33:44.319 --> 00:33:56.640
So how do we as individuals learn for ourselves to step outside of the noise and the chaos and say, it's important for me to know what's going on, but I'm not gonna let myself be consumed by it.
00:33:56.799 --> 00:33:58.160
And this is a struggle for me every day.
00:33:58.240 --> 00:33:59.839
I'm not saying I have it figured out.
00:34:00.240 --> 00:34:02.960
Well, but I think it's it's calling it, right?
00:34:03.119 --> 00:34:04.559
It's the first step is calling it.
00:34:04.640 --> 00:34:26.480
And I think that there's that the the friction is the individuals that we collectively went through this, and then there's the individuals that are so, so resistant to processing because their emotional capacity to actually process grief is so fragile that if they do, it's actually gonna break them even further.
00:34:26.719 --> 00:34:34.079
So for them, their response is no, we gotta return back to what it was before, but that but that previous thing doesn't exist.
00:34:34.159 --> 00:34:38.880
And now you're you're you're living in this like Alice in Wonderland maze, right?
00:34:39.119 --> 00:34:43.280
Where you're trying to find your way back, but that back doesn't exist anymore.
00:34:43.519 --> 00:34:43.840
Totally.
00:34:44.079 --> 00:34:50.159
And so then, you know, to have to come to terms in reality with the world that you want to live in doesn't exist anymore.
00:34:50.320 --> 00:34:50.639
Yeah.
00:34:50.800 --> 00:34:52.800
It's really hard and painful.
00:34:52.960 --> 00:34:56.800
And then having to, but you're not ready to accept this new world either.
00:34:56.880 --> 00:35:01.599
And I only I, you know, I honestly I generally have a lot of compassion for the elderly.
00:35:01.920 --> 00:35:13.599
And you think about, you know, the seniors who have gone through so many different, if you think about boomers, they've gone through so many different technological advances, things like that, right?
00:35:13.679 --> 00:35:18.079
And it's like they they and then you use, you know, your cognitive slows down when you're older.
00:35:18.239 --> 00:35:22.400
And so then to have to keep up, it's it's a really scary world when you're older.
00:35:22.480 --> 00:35:24.719
And I understand why they want to hold on so deeply.
00:35:24.800 --> 00:35:28.400
And then we have those same boomers controlling our world.
00:35:28.559 --> 00:35:29.920
They're our leaders, right?
00:35:30.079 --> 00:35:30.320
Yeah.
00:35:30.559 --> 00:35:33.679
Well, and so many are willing to let go because they're like, oh, I'm gonna be dead soon.
00:35:33.920 --> 00:35:34.239
Exactly.
00:35:34.559 --> 00:35:38.000
Like exactly where I don't have to face the consequences anymore.
00:35:38.239 --> 00:35:38.559
Right.
00:35:38.800 --> 00:35:46.400
And they're not future forward thinking about what the next generation has to hold and the weight that they're carrying into.
00:35:46.639 --> 00:35:54.239
Well, and I feel like too, there's this world where so many boomers, and and I I say boomers lovingly because it's my parents, right?
00:35:54.559 --> 00:36:00.000
But it's like they had to grow up in a world where they were told not to feel things, right?
00:36:00.159 --> 00:36:14.400
Those trends that became popular on Instagram where they're talking about like breaking the generational cycles, and millennials will be like talking to their kids and they're like, kids are to be listened to, or I forget what the phrase was now.
00:36:14.559 --> 00:36:17.920
But it's like kids should be seen and not blank, right?
00:36:18.000 --> 00:36:22.559
And now millennials' kids are like, I don't know, what's the word, mommy, you know?
00:36:22.719 --> 00:36:25.840
But like boomers' generations are like, oh yeah, heard, like done.
00:36:26.000 --> 00:36:32.559
Like we do not feel things, we do not talk, we do not talk back, we do we're here to play outside and disappear and come in for dinner.
00:36:32.719 --> 00:36:39.119
And so they grew up in a really harsh, I think, culture where their parents were of the depression, right?
00:36:39.360 --> 00:36:55.280
And so again, when you look at empathy with kind of the world that they grew up in, I think it's really hard because they're trying to learn now as older people to we had all this childhood trauma, like all this abuse that was not called abuse.
00:36:55.360 --> 00:36:57.039
It was just how you grew up, right?
00:36:57.199 --> 00:37:01.440
Like even my mom is like, I wasn't abused, and I'm like, pretty sure you were.
00:37:02.400 --> 00:37:04.000
They were gaslit into believing.
00:37:04.719 --> 00:37:05.840
You know, and it's so true.
00:37:05.920 --> 00:37:09.360
And they're not, you know, and and to say, well, you know, I'm too old now, I don't care.
00:37:09.440 --> 00:37:10.400
This is what I guess.
00:37:10.719 --> 00:37:17.039
And so it's like, how do we, you know, support them in all of their unresolved grief and trauma so that they can heal?
00:37:17.199 --> 00:37:19.920
Because I I genuinely believe we're all connected, right?
00:37:20.239 --> 00:37:31.440
And so if we can help any person, let alone a whole generation, but any person to go back into that unresolved grief and trauma and process it, right?
00:37:31.599 --> 00:37:35.840
And heal a part of themselves, they're gonna show up in the world very differently.
00:37:36.079 --> 00:37:36.480
100%.
00:37:36.960 --> 00:37:47.840
And I think that's part of like so many of the problems that we're facing in our world today, it's like, gosh, I really believe the root of it is unresolved grief and trauma.
00:37:48.000 --> 00:38:04.719
And so if we can get into those places, instead of people showing up with fear and trepidation and anger and hurt and bitterness and, you know, some of the stuff we talked about earlier, it's like, if if people could heal those wounds and learn to trust and love again, right?
00:38:04.960 --> 00:38:10.880
You're gonna show up very, very differently than if you stay disconnected and fragmented and traumatized.
00:38:11.039 --> 00:38:22.880
And so that's something that I'm really, really hoping my work and your work can help do is like bring in the empathy and understanding of like, hey, like this maybe wasn't your fault, right?
00:38:23.119 --> 00:38:30.320
But now you can heal it and you have the authority and the control and the accountability, responsibility to heal it.
00:38:30.480 --> 00:38:32.960
And so, how do we make our world a better place?
00:38:33.199 --> 00:38:34.639
We heal ourselves, right?
00:38:34.800 --> 00:38:46.719
And then we can show up differently and hold space for others to do the same and then have this like beautiful ripple effect of showing up in love for everybody to re-meet their past wounded selves.
00:38:46.880 --> 00:39:15.599
Yeah, I think I think the work that you're doing with your organization and how you're helping these families reposition that I always just think about this as like, you know, one of the most powerful things is a change maker and someone who is making impact even in that one family's life, that second family's life, is that by you helping to shift that person's perspective, now they have the tools to help someone in their community who's going to ultimately experience that too.
00:39:15.679 --> 00:39:19.039
Because as you said, death is guaranteed, right?
00:39:19.280 --> 00:39:20.639
Grief is guaranteed.
00:39:20.719 --> 00:39:21.039
Yes.
00:39:21.360 --> 00:39:30.239
So by shifting and reframing that for that family, for that individual, it's allowing them to then ripple that into the community.
00:39:30.400 --> 00:39:45.760
And so this is work of patience, this is work of compassion, this is work of truly being present and recognizing and having building tolerance for it, which is also very hard to do in a world that is about instant gratification.
00:39:46.000 --> 00:39:46.320
Yeah.
00:39:46.559 --> 00:39:55.039
And when you're hurting too, I want to make a note here for people who are listening too, because you know, when you're hurting, you do not have the margin to hold space for others, right?
00:39:55.199 --> 00:39:59.679
And so that's the really hard part too, is because with COVID, we were all hurting, right?
00:39:59.840 --> 00:40:12.960
And so it was like, and I think that's why we see this rise of violence and hatred and ugliness in the world is like it was always there, I think, personally, but now there's no margin for it.
00:40:13.039 --> 00:40:14.400
So it's just coming out, right?
00:40:14.559 --> 00:40:20.960
Like there's just like everyone's hurting, so there's no margin to create space for yourself to hold space for other people's pain.
00:40:21.119 --> 00:40:24.639
And so now we're just like pain, pain, pain, like overflowing out of everybody.
00:40:24.880 --> 00:40:45.440
And so really the transformation happens when you can create margin for yourself through meditation, prayer, whatever it is to regulate your nervous system, create a calm, grounded place, lower the stress, you know, and and then hold space so that when someone else explodes in pain, you don't give pain back to them.
00:40:45.760 --> 00:40:46.000
Right.
00:40:46.239 --> 00:40:54.480
Because that's what's, I feel like that's what's happening in the world right now is like someone comes out in pain, and then someone else is like, well, your pain, I have pain, and then I have this pain.
00:40:54.559 --> 00:40:56.239
And then it's like a pain competition.
00:40:56.400 --> 00:40:58.159
It's ping-ponging, yeah.
00:40:58.320 --> 00:41:01.679
And so it's like, how do we, how do we interrupt that cycle?
00:41:01.760 --> 00:41:12.400
And it's by creating a barrier where it's like, hey, your pain's gonna hit me, but I can transmute it because I have the space to hold it and then let it go, right?
00:41:12.480 --> 00:41:16.400
And so I'm not gonna take your pain and then make more pain and give it back to you.
00:41:16.559 --> 00:41:41.519
And so the more of us who can heal, and if you need a therapist, go to therapy, you know, whatever it is to support your journey in healing, meditation, journaling, walking in the woods, you know, there's so many healing tools that are at our disposal right now that you can create space in your life so that when someone yells at you, your reaction isn't to pull out the claws and attack them back, right?
00:41:41.679 --> 00:41:45.760
You can instead say, hey, that seems like a really intense reaction.
00:41:45.920 --> 00:41:46.800
Are you okay?
00:41:47.039 --> 00:41:47.360
Right?
00:41:47.519 --> 00:41:50.800
What's going on in your life that's making you yell at me right now?
00:41:51.039 --> 00:41:55.119
Because this isn't a normal interaction for what just happened, right?
00:41:55.360 --> 00:41:59.840
Or whatever it is that you can stop and say, Hey, I see that you're hurting.
00:42:00.000 --> 00:42:00.800
What's going on?
00:42:00.880 --> 00:42:03.679
And how can I support you so that you're not hurting anymore?
00:42:03.840 --> 00:42:09.280
And then I think if we could all do that and meet pain with love, that we could transform the hurt to healing.
00:42:09.519 --> 00:42:11.920
That's so beautiful and that's so necessary.
00:42:12.000 --> 00:42:36.559
And I hope I think this is something that regardless of where you are in your life, what you are doing, and I really, really, really believe change makers are the first ones to distract their own selves in their grief because they're so busy helping others process theirs that ultimately it will find you and it will create that and how that's going to then ultimately impact the work that you're doing anyway.
00:42:36.719 --> 00:42:47.519
So I think every individual needs to find that way of being able to open themselves up to receiving support as much as they want to be in that place to give.
00:42:47.679 --> 00:43:04.239
And I think what you're mentioning is so powerful and important is that in order to also give and have empathy, and I say this too in my framework, is that in order to truly have empathy for others and not make it about yourself, you need to first know how to process things for yourself, which is that compassion piece.
00:43:04.400 --> 00:43:04.639
Yes.
00:43:04.880 --> 00:43:34.880
And so, last question for you is in this journey of your grief that you had with losing Skylar, with then transitioning that and manifesting that into starting this organization, helping other families and other individuals with the photography that you do and with memento, what have you learned in this process for yourself now after helping so many people process their grief in a way that wasn't there and available for you at that at your time?
00:43:35.039 --> 00:43:36.000
That's a great question.
00:43:36.159 --> 00:43:41.360
And I would add on to that that the most common question that I get is how do you do this work?
00:43:41.679 --> 00:43:42.000
Right?
00:43:42.639 --> 00:43:44.800
And how do you do this and not get triggered?
00:43:44.880 --> 00:43:51.280
Or how do you um yeah, how do you do this and and carry the weight of the grief?
00:43:51.440 --> 00:43:57.199
And I think the biggest thing is I would say starting out, helping was a form of survival.
00:43:57.360 --> 00:43:59.760
I was in so much pain that.
00:44:00.239 --> 00:44:03.679
I was like, I just need to find something to do, right?
00:44:03.840 --> 00:44:09.519
Something that feels good because I'm not able to get out of bed, right?
00:44:09.679 --> 00:44:17.039
When Skylar died, like the first, I would say several months, I just wanted to lay in bed and rot and and never wake up again.
00:44:17.199 --> 00:44:18.400
It was, it was that bad.
00:44:18.559 --> 00:44:22.159
It was just like I would lay face down on the pillow hoping I wouldn't wake up.
00:44:22.239 --> 00:44:24.719
You know, it was just like make this nightmare end.
00:44:25.039 --> 00:44:33.760
I had a dog who refused to pee on the floor and made me get him up to or made me get up so I would take him outside.
00:44:33.920 --> 00:44:35.360
Skyler died in August.
00:44:35.440 --> 00:44:41.440
And so there was sunshine, there was warm air, and so it would open the door to let him out and feel life again, you know.
00:44:41.599 --> 00:44:46.400
And through that transition, um, you know, I started photographing people.
00:44:46.559 --> 00:44:51.199
I started, I started anytime I heard of anyone facing a terminal diagnosis, I would volunteer a session.
00:44:51.280 --> 00:44:53.039
This was before the nonprofit was a thing.
00:44:53.119 --> 00:44:59.679
So I'd volunteer a session and was just like, you know, how can I help others?
00:44:59.920 --> 00:45:09.199
Because this was such a nightmare for me that I don't want other people to go through it, or if they have to, that they would have tools and be in a better place than when I went through it.
00:45:09.440 --> 00:45:20.079
And ultimately what I learned in supporting so many families was that love is such a powerful force, like in all the ways that you can possibly imagine.
00:45:20.239 --> 00:45:25.840
So it's a powerful force in how you show up for yourself, like to have self-love and truly love yourself.
00:45:26.000 --> 00:45:29.360
It's a powerful force in showing up to love other people.
00:45:29.519 --> 00:45:32.880
And like I said, really showing up in love and not fear.
00:45:33.039 --> 00:45:36.559
People showed up for us in love and it made all the difference.
00:45:36.719 --> 00:45:41.679
Like even when I would say like 80% of our community disappeared, right?
00:45:41.840 --> 00:45:43.920
We had friends just never talk to us again.
00:45:44.159 --> 00:45:47.599
We had, you know, truly like people running in other directions.
00:45:47.760 --> 00:45:54.639
We had so many people disappear, but we had a handful of people who showed up regularly and consistently with love.
00:45:54.880 --> 00:45:59.840
We had complete strangers show up with love that made such a difference.
00:46:00.000 --> 00:46:09.440
And when you show up for each other in love, too, whether it's in the photographs or just how you spend your time together, like those are the memories that stick with you, right?
00:46:09.679 --> 00:46:10.559
Love lasts.
00:46:10.719 --> 00:46:17.039
And so we can't take clothes, we can't take money, we can't take our investments, we can't take anything with us.
00:46:17.280 --> 00:46:19.760
But the love is what's left when you die.
00:46:19.920 --> 00:46:21.519
And the love is what people remember.
00:46:21.679 --> 00:46:28.079
And so when we talk about legacy, like I want to focus on all the love that I can give to the world, right?
00:46:28.239 --> 00:46:50.480
I want to focus on how do I empty myself out, not in an unhealthy way where I'm giving from the fumes, which is what I did when I first started a nonprofit, but learning boundaries, learning rest, learning how to support myself so that I can show up and love others with that unconditional, beautiful love of true support and change.
00:46:50.719 --> 00:46:53.440
And so, and and really that transformation.
00:46:53.679 --> 00:47:11.840
So I think, yeah, after serving so many families and and being invited into those vulnerable moments, it it really is the love that makes the difference and choosing to be courageous and brave to stay present in those really, really hard moments and still show up in love makes all the difference.
00:47:12.079 --> 00:47:29.039
Ashley, thank you so much for being here, for being on Reframing Perspectives and for the work that you're doing around grief and just really transitioning and transforming the relationship and understanding of it through your experience, through the experience of these families that you're giving.
00:47:29.199 --> 00:47:38.480
I couldn't agree more that love is one of the most emotionally overwhelming and beautiful feelings that if there's any feeling that I want to overwhelm myself with, it is that.
00:47:38.800 --> 00:47:52.639
And I think that Clearly Skylar was a gift to you because she was ultimately the, she was ultimately the vessel that created this entire movement that you built.
00:47:53.039 --> 00:47:57.599
So thank you so much for sharing this and for everything that you're doing.
00:47:57.679 --> 00:48:09.119
And you know, we'll definitely have all the links below for people to engage with you, to get your book when it comes out, and uh, you know, just uh being able to receive that support.
00:48:09.280 --> 00:48:10.239
So thank you so much.
00:48:10.480 --> 00:48:11.599
Yeah, thank you for having me.
00:48:11.679 --> 00:48:12.159
This is great.
00:48:12.800 --> 00:48:15.119
Hi friends, I have a favor to ask you.
00:48:15.199 --> 00:48:24.159
Okay if you're finding meaning and you're really resonating with these episodes, I'd love if you could like subscribe, like leave a review, or share it with your friends and family.
00:48:24.960 --> 00:48:29.280
Your words help others discover the stories and perspectives that we're exploring over here.
00:48:29.760 --> 00:48:39.599
And the more that we grow and the more feedback that we get from you through these reviews, the more we can make sure to create a meaningful episode that you're gonna enjoy.
00:48:40.320 --> 00:48:45.920
So subscribe, follow, re leave a review, and share it with your family and friends.
00:48:46.639 --> 00:48:47.199
Thank you so much.