Christopher Nowinski | Prestige Access The Podcast Episode 3

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Welcome back to Prestige Access. My name is Zach Clayton,
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and today we're going to have on my friend Chris Norawinsky,
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Harvard graduate, WWE superstar and he currently is the founder
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and CEO of Concussion Legacy Foundation, where he's spreading awareness
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and education around concussions and CTE. We have a great conversation.
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He's a great friend of mine. We have a lot
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of fun and we talked some pro wrestling. Of course,
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we talk a little bit about how we got inducted
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into the business through Rakishi's stinkface. We have some fun
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talking about that. Harvard graduate. He gets to share a
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little bit or a lot of his knowledge and we
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talk about some more serious stuff related to concussions, CTE
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and the current state and climbing of professional sports surrounding that.
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So tune in, hope you love it. Looking forward to
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sharing it with you. All right, guys, thanks for joining
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us today. Chris Man, how are you. It's great to
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have you today as someone who's known you as a
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friend for a while in your work for quite some time.
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I think this is going to be an episode that
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people really enjoy. Learn a lot, take a lot from
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whether you're an athlete or not, it's going to be
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super informational. So I'm glad to have you. Thanks for
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joining us today.
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Well thanks for having me, Zach appreciate anybody.
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So let's get a little bit of background on you
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as an athlete, a performer, and then what you're doing now.
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I mean, you started Harvard graduate, smart man, spend some
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time at the w w WE. It's our commonality. We
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are pro wrestlers at heart always, but that is what
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inevitably led you to your position now being a founder
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or CEO of Concussion Legacy Foundation. So if you could
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kind of just take us through that journey, just for
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a few minutes, that'd be great.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, The Fast Version is a lucky, grew up group
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outside Chicago. Got to play some football at Harvard, had
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a great time, didn't know what I wanted to do
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with life, got bored at a consulting job, loved watching wrestling,
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and decided I'm going to take a stab at it
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because it looked like everyone was having so much fun,
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which they are, and so was kind of tough enough,
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which was wild on MTV. And then you know, I
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did a good story a year on Monday Night Raw
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until I kicked in ahead too much.
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You know, wrestling is hard.
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It is hard.
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It is hard. You gotta do it right.
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And so it's a few accidents and suddenly I had
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a fifteen year headache and post concussion syndrome. And then
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trying to research how to get better, I realized that
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I hadn't been told the truth about how bad concussions are.
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We hadn't been told about this thing called CTE. And
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I started going down that road, going God, I think
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a lot of people are dying from this and we
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should change it. And so luckily, what's excited looking back
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twenty years later is that we have completely changed culture
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and concussions. The problem with CTS. It's all bigger than
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we thought. And so now I'm dedicating my life to
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ending it. And it's a lot of work.
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It is. And Chris, I mean, you were coming up
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in the early two thousands and pro wrestling in WWE,
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and that was a time not just in wrestling, but
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in the world in general. We didn't really speak or
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hear much, or even know much about head injuries, head trauma.
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Was there a time when you were wrestling? Was it
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a specific moment that was it? One shot? One injury
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that you said, all right, now I'm done, or was
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it just a combination of Hey, I'm thinking something might
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be wrong here.
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No, it was a very slow death.
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It was, you know, like I got what I now
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know were a few concussions that I blew off while
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I was wrestling, certainly somewhile in football. There was The
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one that I realized was a problem was June two
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thousand and three, just a house show kicked to the chin,
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where it just I forgot what we were doing out there.
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I had this massive headache and for the first time,
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like that happened a lot, it just didn't go away.
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And the problem was I didn't realize that that mattered.
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I I remember I was almost gonna confess, like was
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really wrong with me, and then I walked into the
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medical room and saw what people were dealing with with
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real injuries, and I was like, I can't tell them
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my head hurts. So I just continued to wrestle on
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and off for five weeks and basically like just did
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so much additional damage she would already injured brain. That
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that that's why I didn't go away, because I didn't
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know any better. I thought you were supposed to be
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tough and wrestle through it, and if you can, you know,
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I didn't want people think I was soft or lose
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my spot, or to have the other.
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Guy who supposed to wrestle that night i'd be able
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to work.
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And so a lot of bad, well intentioned thoughts that
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sort of led the end to my demise.
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Of course, and in our business that is the mindset,
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especially back then, it was, Hey, if I don't work one,
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I don't get paid, and like my spot's gone. When
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I do come back, it's like that's it for me.
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So not even just to mention, like you might go
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into the trainer's room and see somebody with a broken
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whatever and like he's hurt. I'm okay, I can suck
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it up and go wrestle. Are refused necks who got me?
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It's like the rest of the fused neck Like, right,
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I have the flu, Like big deal?
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Right?
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Right?
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But inevitably, and now we know twenty years later and
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we're going to continue to learn, head injuries are just
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as if not more serious.
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Yeah, basically head and neck are sort of in the
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same ballpark, Like you can they can both end your
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life and ruin your quality of life forever if you
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do it wrong exactly.
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So September being Concussion Awareness month, wanted to have you
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on just to shed some light on everything we're discussing
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here because as athletes, Chris it often we're surrounded with
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professionals and a medical team and people who are there
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to help us. But it's not just athletes that suffer
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head injuries and head trauma and get concussions. It's everyday
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working people sometimes that have accidents. How can we get
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them to one know that there's a concussion or a
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head trauma or an issue and shed some awareness and
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education on them to go get the proper help and
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understand what it's like to one have a head injury
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and to treat it.
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So one of the one of the more interesting things
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about this, I realized very early on that the best
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way to change the culture on this was to do
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it through sports and entertainment. So it's one thing to like,
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you know, try to mandate medical education and schools and
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other places. But the other place that this is always
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happening is like NFL broadcasts, right, So like every week
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someone's getting pulled out for concussion, every other game someone's
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diagnosed with a concussion, and it was this great teaching lab.
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And so what was interested is twenty years ago, you
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weren't allowed to really talk about it, so they wouldn't
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use the words, they wouldn't acknowledge it, they would just
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cut to commercial. And then when it started becoming a
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thing because starting with the print media, then we started
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also training broadcasters about sort of their responsibility to acknowledge it,
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like say the word. You know, people their kids watching
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this is going to be the number one place they
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learn what a concussion looks like, that it's serious that
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they come out of the game. But that was also
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our way to reach everybody else too, Right, there's no
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because every like a huge chunk of the population is
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watching sports, and especially the NFL. So if we could
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change that conversation, and then what was fascinating to watch
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that is that now you see concussions as storylines and
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like every drama show there is, right, it's so amusing
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to me, Like they dig into it. They have CT
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episodes on law and order and stuff, and it's like
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it's been a it's been a very cool way to
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make it interesting to learn about this stuff. So it's
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been that that culture change really is best exemplified by
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all the great entertainment sports changes.
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Right, And anytime you're trying to spread awareness about anything changing,
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the culture and the terminology around the words that are
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used is the biggest piece, because, like you just said,
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for the longest time, it was taboo to even discuss it,
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especially in the NFL, in pro wrestling, in professional sports,
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because first of all, that takes the player out, Oh
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their head hurts, boo hoo. Well, I mean that could
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be a very very serious issue. Just because they don't
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have a broken neck. Like we said, it's just as serious,
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if not more. And it's almost like people did not
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want to discuss it because they always knew that the
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problem existed, they just didn't want to pay attention to it.
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Yeah, you know, there's sort of two sides to it.
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Like on the one side, like I when I wrote
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a book twenty years ago called head Games Footballs Concussion Crisis,
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a lot of it was about how the NFL at
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that time, I think was actively covering it up. They
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were publishing research saying concussions weren't so bad for you.
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On the pro wrestling side, though, you know, having known
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these people very well, I think people just didn't know right,
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because pro wrestling sort of followed its lead from sports
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in terms of medical care, and so they had sports
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medicine docs like at the Arenas, but that wasn't on
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their radar, so it wasn't on w's radar.
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So I think back to.
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You know, there was a book that came out while
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I was there.
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Called Unscripted that was really interesting and in it, like
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they wrote a profile of I think this. I think
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it is all accurate. It could be a bad memory.
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But when when there's a triple threat match with Kurt
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Angle and the Rock and Blanket on who else but
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and Kurt Angles knocked unconscious and they had to put him,
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you know, wheel him backstage like on a stretcher, and
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then he woke up backstage like, oh you're awake, get
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back out there, and he run and out and completely
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blacked out, and they had then they had like make
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up the rest of the match and like and that
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not only were they proud of it, they they they
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sort of openly talked about it like it was so
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cool and and back then, I that was what I
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thought too, because that's what I knew. And now that
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now they're back, like there's no way that Triple H
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would ever let something like that happen again, because he's
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bought into the he understands the stuff now, and the
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culture there is just so different and so protective of
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the athletes.
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So that's sort of.
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Probably the decent example of what it was like, and
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it would happened all the time.
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Guys are knocked out.
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As long as they woke up, you could keep going
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for sure.
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And again that was that was the mindset that we had,
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and you know, unfortunately we just didn't know. We just
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didn't know at the time, right, and a lot of
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people still don't. And that's the purpose of you now
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leading the Concussion Legacy Foundation has spread this awareness, spread
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this education and knowledge. So you do seminars for professional
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sports leagues, You go around and you do just that.
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I've had a few seminars with you, aw, I know
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you go to WWE TNA. Can we talk a little
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bit about that and just what that journey and experience
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is like for you to be able to share that
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knowledge with professionals and athletes, you need to hear it.
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Yeah, Although I'll push back on the question because it
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isn't sports leagues. The sports league is wont to white
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me in a lot of the sports leagues. I still
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don't think they don't. They are worried about their athletes
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getting scared. But I but I really think that there
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were they they some people recognize down deep, like all right,
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if we tell them everything's going on, we can't convince
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them to go out there when we need them, or
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to hide their concussion in the big game.
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You know, like didn't I didn't know that. I thought
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you were working with the leagues too. Wow.
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No, no, no, no, I have not been invited in
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front of active pro athletes.
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I don't know if ever, you.
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Know, even even even though I advise you know, different groups,
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like they don't let me have an open.
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Mic, so organizes it when you come to wrestling.
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Oh so, but wrestling, I don't see wrestling a different world. Okay,
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wrestling is one place that does let me.
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And it started with w a little while back, and
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then it was.
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About twenty thirteen, I think or so.
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But they started having coming for annual trainings and that's
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been wonderful And I just did my most recent one yesterday.
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So they they invited me up to Orlando and I
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trained all the n XT young folks who a lot of.
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Them were hearing for the first time and I couldn't
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people that have.
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There now and then, and it's amazing, like they have
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a huge medical staff there, like it's all a very
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different world and thans sort of what we came up in.
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So it's yeah, so ww it's it's aw I'm doing
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my aw ones. A couple of weeks. TNA recently had
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me in which is great. I've done nw A as
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well for Billy Corgan, who's really bought into stuff, is
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on a national advisory board.
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So like for me, it's like, you know, I left
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the wrestling world in.
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A very weird place if you if you remember back
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to that time, like a good chunk of the locker
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room was you know, thought I was stealing checks when
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I had post concussion syndrome, Like I'd be accused of
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that in front of other people, like in public, and
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because they were trying to defend the business, like you know,
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you know, I remember who they were, and some of
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them apologized and they've all been very nice about it,
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but you know, they thought, you know, because they couldn't
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see anything, that I was faking it because I you know,
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I was a weird Harvard guy, like, you know, trying
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to trick people or something, which is fine because I
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get where they were coming from.
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They didn't have the knowledge and so and so.
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Then and then it was, you know, there was some
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times where I didn't I was not welcome there. But
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then now that I'm invited back in and everyone is
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buying in and everyone's so kind to me when I
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come and say thanks, you know, for helping us make
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this safer, because you know, it sucks to have your
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career taken away out of your own ignorance like great,
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you know, and when you're on your way up. And
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that's how I started the talk yesterday. I said, look,
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I want you guys to succeed. I want you to
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go to the top, and I want you to be
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there for fifty years because this is a business. You
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could do that if you protect yourself. And so it's
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very cool that they listen, they take it in, and
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that we don't have some of these accidents and injuries
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we used to have before because top to bottom, the
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culture's change is different, and you know, and it is
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like for me being an outsider, it's like watching, you know,
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like Paul Avec sat on our board for six years
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and would come to all the meetings, came all the events,
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and he just really dug in on this and and
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I've watched him sort of.
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Carry that flag.
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And now that now we've seeing that he's in charge,
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you know, of everything, just knowing that he how much
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he understands this and cares about it and sees it
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not only from the human side, but the business side
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of You never want to lose a great talent to
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too many concussions or mistreatd concussions like it's it's.
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Very rewarding to know that it's different.
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Yeah, Paul Avec triple h. For those who don't know,
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he's a guy that truly, like you just said, does
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care talent first because he was on the other side
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of that. So it is great to see a leader
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step up in that capacity and put people first that
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are the real money makers for the company. I mean,
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if you don't have your stars, your talent, you don't
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have a company. And so if they're not safe, if
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they're not protected, if they're not educated on just because
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you can see an injury like you brought up, doesn't
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mean that it's not there. And by the way, here
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are the proper steps to take so you don't come
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back to early and get re injured, which is another
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huge issue. Can we talk a little bit about post
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concustom syndrome and how to identify it. What is the
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proper time length we should be waiting and know that varies,
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but can we talk a little bit.
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Yeah, no, it's important to talk about because it keeps changing. Right,
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So when we started doing this twenty years ago, the
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response was immediately, well, if you know, if playing through
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your concussions is bad, why don't we have you completely rest?
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And so sometimes we're telling people to go sit in
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a dark room for like a week or two. And
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what we've learned about that is that like isolation is
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punishment in prisons because it causes anxiety. It causes the
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mental health issues, like you don't actually want to be
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alone in the dark room.
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It's not good for your brain. You need stimulation, interaction.
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And so now the advice is basically like take it
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easy for a day or two, like don't put yourself
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at risk, stay home, get sleep, you get lutrition, let
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yourself recover, but then start to integrate back into life
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after a day or two, you know, get to a doctor,
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right away, so they can help you and advise you
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along this path, but you know you may want it.
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You may be okay to go back to work a bit,
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depending on what your what kind of symptoms you have,
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you may be okay to start going back to school
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earlier than you used to. Just don't put yourself at
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risk to get hid in the head again, right, you know.
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And so and you sort of ease into the sports.
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It starts just.
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Walking and then and then you start to get your
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heart rate up.
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Your heart is a great thing that can let you
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know if you're not recovered. Because we don't have any
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tests to tell you when you're safe to do anything.
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There's no biomark or no blood testin scan, so sometimes
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they just have you start exercising and if your body
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responds well exercise, it means your brain's in a good place.
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If you start feeling nauseous and sick, which a lot
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of us do for a while, that means your brain's
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not probably ready. And then what if your symptoms. You know,
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most people are gonna feel fine after.
359
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Two weeks, but if you if.
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You don't, at some point you might start rehabbing. So basically,
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if you're not doing well. It's not necessarily because your
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brain is still damaged, but something's off. It could be
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your vestibular system, your balance, your visual issues that are
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causing headaches. You get a whiplash in your neck that's
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causing pain, and you could have issues with your sleep
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that's causing you to wake up feeling terrible and foggy.
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So you basically the advice is go to a comprehensive
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concussion clinic that's near you, and if you can't find when,
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go to our helpline at the Concussion Legacy Foundation. We'll
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connect you and they'll figure out what your lingering issues
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are and then how to best attack those. And so
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luckily it's not the old days it was like once
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you got postconcussion syndrome, you got it until it's gone. Now,
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I've watched a lot of great athletes rehab their way
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back to sports after months or a year or two,
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and it's not that we're worried about them having long
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term brain damage. It's something just went off and it
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was able to be rehabbed.
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I do have to say, personally, super scary stuff. I've
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had concussions before, and there was one that I remember
381
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that kind of just lingered. It didn't really go away,
382
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and I gave it, you know, the standard ten to
383
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fourteen days of you know, take it easy. But I remember, like,
384
00:18:10.200 --> 00:18:12.640
because we're athletes again, and I hate going back to that,
385
00:18:12.720 --> 00:18:14.680
but that's the mindset. It's like, well, I'm gonna go
386
00:18:15.240 --> 00:18:17.119
I'm gonna give it a little bit today in the gym,
387
00:18:17.319 --> 00:18:19.279
probably more than I should. I'm just gonna test it,
388
00:18:19.319 --> 00:18:24.240
see what happens. And when you're going through that fresh
389
00:18:24.240 --> 00:18:28.200
off of concussion, you know very quickly if you're pushing
390
00:18:28.200 --> 00:18:30.480
it too hard, because your body's going to tell you.
391
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And when you brought up balance, I remember like I
392
00:18:35.680 --> 00:18:38.519
was laying down for a dumbbell chest press and I
393
00:18:38.559 --> 00:18:41.200
had my music was cranked and everything. I sat up
394
00:18:41.559 --> 00:18:44.559
and I was super lightheaded, like I just got kicked
395
00:18:44.559 --> 00:18:46.279
in the mouth or something. I was just like whoa,
396
00:18:46.319 --> 00:18:48.119
And I dropped the weights and I'm like, you know what,
397
00:18:48.160 --> 00:18:50.680
I'm just gonna go home because I don't feel right.
398
00:18:52.559 --> 00:18:55.240
But doing that, a lot of people don't know that
399
00:18:55.240 --> 00:18:57.039
can set you backwards. And now you got to read
400
00:18:57.079 --> 00:19:01.039
the whole process again. It's the headaches, this waking up
401
00:19:01.079 --> 00:19:02.920
during the middle of the night, those are all signs
402
00:19:02.920 --> 00:19:05.839
that you should probably prest some wrek because they're not ready.
403
00:19:06.160 --> 00:19:08.519
And can we talk a little bit about some science.
404
00:19:09.119 --> 00:19:12.000
I'm cool with going into it a little bit. Why
405
00:19:12.799 --> 00:19:17.640
after postconcussomer syndrome, when there's an issue we can fall backwards,
406
00:19:17.720 --> 00:19:20.000
let's explain that, and that could be even more detrimental
407
00:19:20.000 --> 00:19:21.200
than the original concussion.
408
00:19:22.319 --> 00:19:26.079
You know, there's actually no great studies on the physiology
409
00:19:26.119 --> 00:19:29.960
of why that is. And it's in part because the
410
00:19:30.000 --> 00:19:34.400
cause of your symptoms could be so many things that
411
00:19:34.680 --> 00:19:37.720
we we can't and we can't measure them, so I
412
00:19:37.759 --> 00:19:38.200
don't know.
413
00:19:38.640 --> 00:19:40.319
Like, so, for what you were.
414
00:19:40.160 --> 00:19:43.640
Going through, you basically had a bunch of injured neurons.
415
00:19:43.680 --> 00:19:48.079
You had mitochondria that couldn't function normally because you had
416
00:19:48.200 --> 00:19:50.119
calcium channel issues.
417
00:19:50.039 --> 00:19:52.559
And so when your body needed.
418
00:19:52.200 --> 00:19:54.720
The energy to do that exercise or whatever it was,
419
00:19:54.880 --> 00:19:57.000
it couldn't. Your brain couldn't produce it, your body couldn't
420
00:19:57.000 --> 00:19:57.640
produce it.
421
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Right and then and then then's why I was telling
422
00:20:00.519 --> 00:20:02.359
you to sort of shut down. And that's just sort
423
00:20:02.400 --> 00:20:05.119
of a narrative based on some small understanding of science
424
00:20:05.160 --> 00:20:06.319
from mouse models, like we.
425
00:20:06.279 --> 00:20:10.640
Don't really know. But essentially, when you are in.
426
00:20:10.920 --> 00:20:12.960
You sort of think about it like a hamstring, you know,
427
00:20:13.079 --> 00:20:15.839
like you injure your you tear your hamstring, it's starting
428
00:20:15.839 --> 00:20:18.279
to heal, but if you go out and sprint again,
429
00:20:18.440 --> 00:20:21.200
it might just more easy to go back to the
430
00:20:21.200 --> 00:20:24.160
beginning of that recovery. So maybe that's probably the best
431
00:20:24.200 --> 00:20:27.079
analogy for what might be happening in your brain. But
432
00:20:27.160 --> 00:20:29.279
there's so much happening in your brain, and there's so
433
00:20:29.359 --> 00:20:31.799
much more we're learning all the time. That we had
434
00:20:31.799 --> 00:20:34.640
a publication in Nature last week where we identified like
435
00:20:34.799 --> 00:20:37.559
multiple new types of brain damage that are happening even
436
00:20:37.599 --> 00:20:40.440
in the advance of CTE in new places.
437
00:20:40.559 --> 00:20:42.759
And so it's like your brain.
438
00:20:42.599 --> 00:20:45.880
Is so complex that it gives it helps me appreciate
439
00:20:45.920 --> 00:20:48.839
why we probably shouldn't be letting it hit in the
440
00:20:48.880 --> 00:20:50.880
head too much for sure.
441
00:20:50.960 --> 00:20:51.240
Man.
442
00:20:52.799 --> 00:20:57.079
Hey, Chris I Mike, producer of the pod. I just
443
00:20:57.160 --> 00:20:59.480
had a few questions, like Number one, as a dad,
444
00:21:00.160 --> 00:21:03.480
daughters heavily into sports, doing a ton of stuff. My
445
00:21:03.559 --> 00:21:06.480
nephews are playing football. Are there any signs that a
446
00:21:06.559 --> 00:21:10.319
parent should look at when when you know their kid
447
00:21:10.359 --> 00:21:12.279
gets banged around in this sport. I know there's been
448
00:21:12.319 --> 00:21:14.759
a lot of advancements in the sport. You know, you
449
00:21:14.759 --> 00:21:17.119
see the new NFL players coming up with those foam
450
00:21:17.119 --> 00:21:21.279
helmets on and extra protection protection during practice and stuff,
451
00:21:21.319 --> 00:21:23.799
But is there anything a parent should be looking at.
452
00:21:24.640 --> 00:21:26.440
So, yeah, the advice for parents is, hey, we need
453
00:21:26.440 --> 00:21:28.799
to up our game on prevention. So you know, the
454
00:21:28.839 --> 00:21:30.160
best thing you do is not have them in the
455
00:21:30.200 --> 00:21:33.160
first place. And so we're actually like heavily pushing sports
456
00:21:33.200 --> 00:21:36.160
to reform how they play. So for example, like when
457
00:21:36.200 --> 00:21:38.400
we started this battle, you could head a ball any
458
00:21:38.440 --> 00:21:42.160
time in soccer, and coaches could have punting practices, you know,
459
00:21:42.279 --> 00:21:44.319
And now we know like there's no heading till eleven
460
00:21:44.400 --> 00:21:47.480
is a rule, and there's education on severe restrictions on
461
00:21:47.519 --> 00:21:50.240
how you start heading with young people because we do
462
00:21:50.359 --> 00:21:52.880
know it not only causes concussions, but it increases the
463
00:21:52.960 --> 00:21:56.519
risk of CTE. Football is one place that sort of
464
00:21:56.759 --> 00:22:00.359
mostly ignored that advice of like reducing contact, Like it's
465
00:22:00.400 --> 00:22:03.279
sort of league by league and it's not enforced. So
466
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you want to be a voice too your You want
467
00:22:05.839 --> 00:22:07.720
to be monitoring what's going on and be a voice
468
00:22:07.759 --> 00:22:09.680
to the coaches of you are aware of this and
469
00:22:09.720 --> 00:22:12.640
that they better not be exposing your kids unnecessary head impacts.
470
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Doing dangerous drills.
471
00:22:14.160 --> 00:22:17.759
I posted on my TikTok today at Christopher Nowinski and
472
00:22:17.559 --> 00:22:21.640
on Instagram a video of a youth football coach throwing
473
00:22:21.680 --> 00:22:25.440
giant bags like the tackling at kids to teach them
474
00:22:25.480 --> 00:22:27.880
how to hit and still run. But they're pegging them
475
00:22:27.880 --> 00:22:30.160
in the head with bags that as big as they are,
476
00:22:30.559 --> 00:22:32.759
and it's just like, how, like this is so stupid,
477
00:22:33.480 --> 00:22:36.920
so you don't want that happening. And then and then
478
00:22:36.960 --> 00:22:38.880
when it comes to concussion, it's like you know your
479
00:22:38.960 --> 00:22:42.799
kid best, right. It's important to appreciate that most concussion
480
00:22:42.799 --> 00:22:45.480
symptoms are not immediate. So we always think about the
481
00:22:45.599 --> 00:22:48.920
NFL TV concussion if they got hit and they stood
482
00:22:49.000 --> 00:22:51.160
up and they fell over, or they held their head
483
00:22:51.200 --> 00:22:53.680
crying or they're unconscious, and like, those are the easy
484
00:22:53.720 --> 00:22:56.359
ones to spot, but the hard ones to spot are
485
00:22:56.359 --> 00:22:57.839
the ones where they take a big hit and they
486
00:22:57.839 --> 00:23:00.279
pop up and they go I'm fine, I'm fine, I'm fine.
487
00:23:00.480 --> 00:23:03.720
But then slowly they start to feel different, and now
488
00:23:03.759 --> 00:23:05.720
they're going to feel pressure of well, I can't come
489
00:23:05.720 --> 00:23:07.839
out now because everyone thought I'm fine, and it was
490
00:23:07.920 --> 00:23:10.000
twenty minutes ago, no one saw me, and they may
491
00:23:10.039 --> 00:23:12.160
not say anything and it's your job is to be
492
00:23:12.200 --> 00:23:14.279
that detective of Hey, you're acting a little funny, how
493
00:23:14.279 --> 00:23:16.920
do you feel? Give them that chance to self report,
494
00:23:17.480 --> 00:23:20.519
or they may not report until they get home that night.
495
00:23:20.599 --> 00:23:22.599
That's when they start that headache comes on, or they
496
00:23:22.640 --> 00:23:25.079
can't sleep, or they feel nauseous. So you have to
497
00:23:25.119 --> 00:23:27.480
realize that it can be four to eight hours before
498
00:23:27.519 --> 00:23:30.599
symptoms come on, and to realize that if they took
499
00:23:30.640 --> 00:23:32.400
a hit or they were in a contact of a
500
00:23:32.480 --> 00:23:35.160
sporting event that you weren't there, it could be related.
501
00:23:35.839 --> 00:23:37.640
A lot of times you want to shrug it off
502
00:23:37.680 --> 00:23:41.200
as they get headaches. Sometimes they you know, they they
503
00:23:41.200 --> 00:23:43.480
didn't get any sleep last night or whatever it is,
504
00:23:43.599 --> 00:23:46.799
but it could it could be concussion, and it's just important.
505
00:23:46.880 --> 00:23:49.160
Hopefully I have an athletic trainer to talk to, or
506
00:23:49.200 --> 00:23:50.720
you call your doctrine and say this is what I
507
00:23:50.759 --> 00:23:52.039
know and help them decide.
508
00:23:52.160 --> 00:23:53.359
Sometimes it isn't.
509
00:23:53.319 --> 00:23:54.960
But if it is, you do want to know and
510
00:23:55.000 --> 00:23:56.559
you do want to keep them out of harm's way.
511
00:23:57.160 --> 00:24:01.599
So, yeah, I didn't go to Harvar, but outside looking
512
00:24:01.759 --> 00:24:05.119
in with the whole CTE thing, like I feel as
513
00:24:05.160 --> 00:24:09.279
though some of these these leagues, the NFL specifically like
514
00:24:09.400 --> 00:24:12.400
either has started to normalize it. So have you had
515
00:24:12.440 --> 00:24:15.359
any frustrations of feeling like we're kind of going backwards
516
00:24:15.359 --> 00:24:17.480
a little bit because I can't help but notice it.
517
00:24:17.519 --> 00:24:20.079
Maybe it's technology, maybe it's the right doctors being there,
518
00:24:20.319 --> 00:24:22.480
but a lot of these hits that you know, I
519
00:24:22.519 --> 00:24:25.759
think a Tua holding his fingers like this in front
520
00:24:25.759 --> 00:24:26.920
of him and the next thing I know, he's back
521
00:24:26.960 --> 00:24:29.039
in the game. You know, I thought for sure he
522
00:24:29.200 --> 00:24:32.039
never play again. Like, is it a little bit of
523
00:24:32.079 --> 00:24:36.400
both where we're normalizing it sadly again or is it
524
00:24:36.440 --> 00:24:36.839
the tech?
525
00:24:37.880 --> 00:24:39.160
No, it's not the tech.
526
00:24:39.319 --> 00:24:41.279
And in fact, there was a publication out the summer
527
00:24:41.279 --> 00:24:43.519
from the NFL showing that the guarding caps didn't actually
528
00:24:43.640 --> 00:24:45.960
make a difference in reducing concussions. It was more style
529
00:24:46.000 --> 00:24:49.640
of play being changed and opportunities. But there hasn't been
530
00:24:49.640 --> 00:24:52.480
a lot of attention drawn to that. But so it's
531
00:24:52.480 --> 00:24:55.000
definitely not the tech for Tua, Like the issue was
532
00:24:55.440 --> 00:24:58.279
four days before the time where his fingers went like this,
533
00:24:58.680 --> 00:25:01.599
he should have been held out because he got hit
534
00:25:01.720 --> 00:25:03.440
and they claimed it was a back injury even though
535
00:25:03.440 --> 00:25:05.119
it was very obvious it was a concussion, and he
536
00:25:05.200 --> 00:25:08.119
did the headshake which inspired me to write a paper
537
00:25:08.160 --> 00:25:10.039
on the headshake, because I didn't realize it wasn't on
538
00:25:10.079 --> 00:25:10.880
anyone's list.
539
00:25:11.319 --> 00:25:13.279
Now it is, but it had never.
540
00:25:13.119 --> 00:25:14.839
Been given a name, and it had never been studied,
541
00:25:14.960 --> 00:25:19.240
and it is predictive of concussion. So that tool was
542
00:25:19.240 --> 00:25:21.119
sort of like the last big miss.
543
00:25:21.160 --> 00:25:22.359
I think there might have been one since.
544
00:25:22.400 --> 00:25:24.880
But they don't miss any very much anymore.
545
00:25:25.160 --> 00:25:27.559
At least they go to the blue tent. They might be.
546
00:25:27.480 --> 00:25:30.440
Letting more people back onto the field than they should,
547
00:25:30.440 --> 00:25:33.359
but that's because that's what the players want to because
548
00:25:33.359 --> 00:25:35.440
if it is a very minor one, they often want
549
00:25:35.480 --> 00:25:37.440
to play through so they don't lose their position. And
550
00:25:37.480 --> 00:25:40.599
that's in theory, a bit of informed consent, but it's hazy.
551
00:25:41.960 --> 00:25:42.519
And so.
552
00:25:44.559 --> 00:25:48.200
The concussion spotting is better and the concussion care is better,
553
00:25:48.240 --> 00:25:49.559
like there's no question about that.
554
00:25:50.039 --> 00:25:51.880
It's been a long way to get here, but then
555
00:25:51.920 --> 00:25:53.240
the question is returning.
556
00:25:53.480 --> 00:25:56.680
I think that's part of the change of the understanding
557
00:25:56.720 --> 00:25:59.920
of it, is that CTE is really the big enemy
558
00:26:00.640 --> 00:26:04.160
for concussions. As long as you recover on all our
559
00:26:04.160 --> 00:26:07.200
neurological tests and you feel fine, no one's going to
560
00:26:07.240 --> 00:26:09.599
shut you down. No one's going to preemptively shut you
561
00:26:09.640 --> 00:26:11.480
down anymore. We used to do it a little bit.
562
00:26:11.519 --> 00:26:13.240
I think there's some athletes who might have said, maybe
563
00:26:13.240 --> 00:26:14.799
I shouldn't have quit, I could have been better after
564
00:26:14.839 --> 00:26:15.400
a year or two.
565
00:26:16.000 --> 00:26:18.000
But now it's like TUA did get a.
566
00:26:17.960 --> 00:26:19.960
Ton of time off after the last one, right.
567
00:26:19.799 --> 00:26:21.720
Like they finally figured it out, And I think that
568
00:26:21.839 --> 00:26:24.960
sort of spotlighted it for everybody. So concussions are not
569
00:26:25.119 --> 00:26:27.559
the reason to retire unless you're still symptomatic and a
570
00:26:27.640 --> 00:26:31.119
doctor tells you, but their issue is too going back.
571
00:26:31.200 --> 00:26:33.920
He's at very high risk for CT, like they all are,
572
00:26:34.680 --> 00:26:37.359
and it's important that they know that because it's not
573
00:26:37.759 --> 00:26:39.119
just them who carry the burden.
574
00:26:39.359 --> 00:26:41.000
It will be their their families.
575
00:26:41.640 --> 00:26:43.720
Like I spent a lot of my time, we're counseling
576
00:26:43.759 --> 00:26:47.440
widows and their wives and children dealing with out of
577
00:26:47.480 --> 00:26:51.319
controlled dads who have this sudden onset of crazy behaviors
578
00:26:51.359 --> 00:26:54.440
in the fifties sixty seventies, and it's almost always they
579
00:26:54.400 --> 00:26:55.880
almost always rEFInd CT.
580
00:26:55.799 --> 00:26:57.200
And we think those things are related.
581
00:26:57.960 --> 00:27:01.799
Chris, we have just a few minutes the difference between
582
00:27:02.240 --> 00:27:05.200
concussions and CT for those who don't know, because there
583
00:27:05.240 --> 00:27:07.799
is a lot of brain study there are several phases.
584
00:27:08.200 --> 00:27:10.000
Could we just talk a little bit about that.
585
00:27:10.960 --> 00:27:13.640
Yeah, So, concussion is an acute injury that you will
586
00:27:13.680 --> 00:27:17.000
recover from with the right care, and it's when you
587
00:27:17.039 --> 00:27:21.400
get hid in head and you feel something. CTE is
588
00:27:21.440 --> 00:27:25.279
a degenerative brain disease that is caused by repetitive hits
589
00:27:25.319 --> 00:27:28.200
to the head, whether they cause symptoms or not. We
590
00:27:28.279 --> 00:27:30.759
now know that you have one hundred billion neurons, trillions
591
00:27:30.799 --> 00:27:33.720
of connections in your brain those hit, those hard hits
592
00:27:33.759 --> 00:27:36.319
that you think you're fine, you're not fine from, and
593
00:27:36.359 --> 00:27:38.480
if you get too many of them, that one of
594
00:27:38.519 --> 00:27:42.079
them can spark this these lesions that turn into degeneration
595
00:27:42.440 --> 00:27:44.559
like a crack in the windshield that keeps spreading for
596
00:27:44.599 --> 00:27:48.119
the rest of your life. And so it starts as
597
00:27:48.160 --> 00:27:51.279
these small, tiny lesions, and usually in the frontal lopes
598
00:27:52.240 --> 00:27:53.839
because that's where your brain is most.
599
00:27:53.720 --> 00:27:55.359
Vulnerable when it rapidly moves.
600
00:27:55.799 --> 00:28:00.440
And then about twelve fifteen years between the force stages,
601
00:28:00.519 --> 00:28:04.559
you're advancing. In most cases, some people are genetically protected
602
00:28:04.559 --> 00:28:06.000
and don't seem to advance.
603
00:28:05.720 --> 00:28:07.119
Very far, but others.
604
00:28:07.759 --> 00:28:10.359
You know, you can get to a dementia case as
605
00:28:10.359 --> 00:28:11.599
early as your fifties and.
606
00:28:11.559 --> 00:28:13.799
Sixties where you've lost so much brain.
607
00:28:13.599 --> 00:28:16.160
Tissue that you can no longer take care of yourself independently.
608
00:28:16.519 --> 00:28:19.720
So it's a very it's a bad disease. It's been
609
00:28:19.799 --> 00:28:22.880
a little bit hidden in the world as misdiagnosed Alzheimer's.
610
00:28:22.880 --> 00:28:25.920
We've been learning because at the end it looks the same.
611
00:28:25.960 --> 00:28:28.119
You're just in a nursing home, you don't recognize people.
612
00:28:28.519 --> 00:28:30.480
But on the way there, there's a lot of behavioral
613
00:28:30.480 --> 00:28:33.720
components we're realizing because it's just a very unique type
614
00:28:33.720 --> 00:28:35.960
of brain damage that's a little bit different for everybody
615
00:28:36.240 --> 00:28:38.200
because of where it starts in your frontal lobe and
616
00:28:38.240 --> 00:28:40.200
what in your brain, what that part of your brain
617
00:28:40.279 --> 00:28:41.200
is responsible for.
618
00:28:41.839 --> 00:28:44.839
I found that those who really start to learn about this,
619
00:28:46.000 --> 00:28:50.000
it's a shock to them that you can recover, but
620
00:28:50.119 --> 00:28:53.119
you don't heal. The brain does not it's not like muscle.
621
00:28:53.359 --> 00:28:57.480
It doesn't heal itself. So those neurons that are damaged
622
00:28:57.480 --> 00:29:00.519
are damaged forever. Is that safe to say? Yeah? Yeah, Yeah.
623
00:29:00.559 --> 00:29:04.000
There's much less neurogenesis than Instagram will let you believe,
624
00:29:05.000 --> 00:29:09.000
and your recovery is rewiring around it new connections between
625
00:29:09.039 --> 00:29:11.799
the existing neurons. But eventually that will fade if you
626
00:29:11.799 --> 00:29:14.480
are losing neurons too fast, like with a disease.
627
00:29:14.160 --> 00:29:17.359
Like CT, which is super scary stuff. And I really
628
00:29:17.440 --> 00:29:21.079
encourage everyone to check out what Chris is doing with
629
00:29:21.119 --> 00:29:27.039
the Concussion Legacy Foundation to educate around head injuries CTE concussions,
630
00:29:27.759 --> 00:29:30.519
especially for an athlete, even if you're a parent who
631
00:29:30.519 --> 00:29:33.799
has kids that are athletes. To Mike's point, it is
632
00:29:34.200 --> 00:29:37.680
super important to save the longety longevity of not just
633
00:29:38.400 --> 00:29:41.640
our lives but the sports that we love because again,
634
00:29:42.559 --> 00:29:45.839
without the athletes and their safety, we don't have these sports,
635
00:29:45.880 --> 00:29:50.759
we don't have this entertainment, and unfortunately you could be very,
636
00:29:50.880 --> 00:29:56.279
very hurt and die from these injuries. Chris, thank you.
637
00:29:56.319 --> 00:29:58.599
Can we talk where? Just to find you online? And
638
00:29:58.640 --> 00:30:02.799
if anyone needs help related to concussions, where can they go?
639
00:30:03.480 --> 00:30:03.759
Sure?
640
00:30:04.279 --> 00:30:06.200
The help thing is the most important. If you are
641
00:30:06.240 --> 00:30:10.319
worried about concussions or CT Concussion Foundation dot org, slash
642
00:30:10.359 --> 00:30:14.000
helpline or CLF Helpline dot org, you can find us.
643
00:30:14.599 --> 00:30:18.200
I'm on socials, Christopher at Christopher Donwinsky and most at
644
00:30:18.240 --> 00:30:22.680
Chris Winsky one on X and always trying to educate
645
00:30:22.720 --> 00:30:25.240
through that. And then you thank you for always being
646
00:30:25.319 --> 00:30:27.240
a part of Concussion Awareness Month with us trying to
647
00:30:27.240 --> 00:30:29.880
spread the word, let people know the helpline is out there,
648
00:30:30.200 --> 00:30:32.920
let us help raise money to help keep it free
649
00:30:32.920 --> 00:30:35.480
to everybody who comes. So I look forward to have
650
00:30:35.519 --> 00:30:39.200
this interview on your page and then appreciate you sharing
651
00:30:39.200 --> 00:30:41.119
a good word with your huge audience.
652
00:30:41.839 --> 00:30:44.119
Absolutely, man, that's why we're here. We want to make
653
00:30:44.160 --> 00:30:47.839
this education accessible to everybody. So thank you for coming
654
00:30:47.839 --> 00:30:51.240
on spreading that knowledge. Mike, Do you have anything for Chris?
655
00:30:51.880 --> 00:30:55.160
Yeah, So on one last thing one, have a little
656
00:30:55.160 --> 00:30:57.640
bit of fun right now? Ww Like, obviously you were
657
00:30:57.640 --> 00:31:00.000
a pro wrestler, Like how cool was that your first
658
00:31:00.079 --> 00:31:03.400
time going into the ring hearing your music? And then
659
00:31:03.519 --> 00:31:05.799
do you have a bucket list match that you had
660
00:31:05.880 --> 00:31:07.640
one that you look back and you're so proud of
661
00:31:07.920 --> 00:31:09.960
and maybe like you know, late night you turn on
662
00:31:10.039 --> 00:31:11.920
and you're like, yeah.
663
00:31:11.480 --> 00:31:14.839
No, that's that never happened. I do.
664
00:31:14.920 --> 00:31:16.640
I mean, I mean, I have so few matches I
665
00:31:16.680 --> 00:31:18.599
can always remember and be fond of all of them.
666
00:31:19.000 --> 00:31:20.880
You know, maybe I'd go back and watch, you know,
667
00:31:20.920 --> 00:31:23.039
me and Tommy Dreamer once I had a hardcore match
668
00:31:23.039 --> 00:31:26.519
in the La Staples Center. Uh, you know, like office
669
00:31:26.720 --> 00:31:28.160
like we and we like he put me through the
670
00:31:28.160 --> 00:31:31.640
ceiling and put them through a wall and doing that.
671
00:31:32.119 --> 00:31:33.599
I want to go back and watch that one because
672
00:31:33.599 --> 00:31:36.279
that one was a lot of fun. Yeah, so I
673
00:31:36.319 --> 00:31:38.279
would do that and then like, yeah, the idea, like
674
00:31:38.519 --> 00:31:40.319
you know, it was a good memory yesterday, just the
675
00:31:40.359 --> 00:31:43.039
idea of walking into that ring like for the first time.
676
00:31:43.359 --> 00:31:47.559
You're making me flash back to like my first tryout match,
677
00:31:47.599 --> 00:31:51.519
my first dark match that they had me do right
678
00:31:51.960 --> 00:31:54.960
right before they hired me, which to get Forakishi, because
679
00:31:54.960 --> 00:31:56.920
I think it was their way of you know, the
680
00:31:56.960 --> 00:31:59.160
stink face was sort of your you know, welcome to
681
00:31:59.200 --> 00:32:01.279
the business, and he kept it for a long time
682
00:32:01.319 --> 00:32:04.960
and nearly blacked out. We just remember like those moments
683
00:32:05.000 --> 00:32:06.720
of like being the ring with the guys you were
684
00:32:06.720 --> 00:32:09.200
watching on TV, your heroes and try out the nicest
685
00:32:09.200 --> 00:32:11.400
guys and you know they take carry in the ring,
686
00:32:11.480 --> 00:32:14.599
and but you get that moment of just like I'm
687
00:32:14.680 --> 00:32:17.440
part of something very special. So I do do certainly
688
00:32:17.559 --> 00:32:21.160
make it, but happy to have what I have Now.
689
00:32:21.680 --> 00:32:25.200
You didn't get a concussion from Rikishi's as did you?
690
00:32:25.240 --> 00:32:29.440
No, no, no, I might I got brain damage from eboxy.
691
00:32:29.839 --> 00:32:33.599
I wouldn't breathe and I couldn't. He stuck it in there.
692
00:32:36.359 --> 00:32:39.240
I worked Tommy Dreamer, I'm working him in a few weeks,
693
00:32:39.240 --> 00:32:41.119
and i'll be with him in a few weeks for TNA.
694
00:32:41.200 --> 00:32:43.119
I'll tell him you said, hey, oh well.
695
00:32:43.400 --> 00:32:44.680
Tommy Dreamer is the best.
696
00:32:44.720 --> 00:32:47.160
He actually, if you, if you could find my two
697
00:32:47.160 --> 00:32:49.119
thousand and six book, the last chapter is like his
698
00:32:49.240 --> 00:32:52.000
crazy concussion stories. So he's another one that like back
699
00:32:52.039 --> 00:32:54.440
then you thought like wow, he is totally a million
700
00:32:54.480 --> 00:32:57.880
different concussions, million times knocked out and he's still thriving,
701
00:32:57.960 --> 00:33:00.319
which is great, right, So it just shows concussions. Really
702
00:33:00.400 --> 00:33:03.200
you can come back from concussions. But you so, I'm
703
00:33:03.240 --> 00:33:05.119
glad that he's doing so well, right.
704
00:33:05.920 --> 00:33:09.119
I love it. Man, Chris, thank you very much. It's
705
00:33:09.119 --> 00:33:11.599
always great to catch up and we'll talk soon. I
706
00:33:11.680 --> 00:33:12.200
appreciate you.
707
00:33:12.880 --> 00:33:14.559
Thank you both. Great to see you.
708
00:33:14.559 --> 00:33:14.799
Thanks