We REACT to Upmarket's "Ultimate Betrayal"

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But we're kicking it off because we wanted to make almost like an emergency episode.
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Alex and I, we both listened to the Upmarket podcast from last week and it's called The Ultimate Betrayal.
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So on our episode here, I want to make a reaction episode to the topic, also to their podcast.
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and talk about how we feel about it and what happens in this industry when people betray you and, you know, how to prevent it and maybe the right steps to take afterwards.
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Do you think Mark and Reid going public was at the right move?
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All right.
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So let's kick it off.
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It's early morning.
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Alex is in her mask and I'm in a full jacket because it's Canada and up where I live, it's already freezing cold.
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And I heat this part of my house with a wood stove and I didn't start it.
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So I'm in a full like construction worker jacket right now.
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But we're kicking it off because we wanted to make almost like an emergency episode.
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Alex and I, we both listened to the Upmarket podcast from last week, and it's called The Ultimate Betrayal.
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And if you haven't listened to it, I highly recommend you go listen to it.
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It's something that's very, it's about, I guess, basically, it's about someone leaving your company and then stealing your business.
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which does happen a lot in this industry.
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And Reid and Mark went really deep, the two hosts of the show, they really explained all the insides and really just kind of how surprising it was to them and then also what they're gonna do to follow up.
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So on our episode here, I wanna make a reaction episode to the topic, also to their podcast.
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and talk about how we feel about it and what happens in this industry when people betray you and, you know, how to prevent it and maybe the right steps to take afterwards.
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So let's start with this with you, Alex.
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You know, I'm just going to say the face mask is part of my morning routine.
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So that's that for this morning.
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Yeah.
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Oh, and you got, what is that there?
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Cortado or...
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Yeah, it's essentially a Cortado, yeah.
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Wow, you know how to live.
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I'm just here getting wrinkly at 44 and freezing my ass off, and you're drinking like a nice fancy little coffee in your face mask.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, fancy.
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Until this comes off, just wait.
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My bags will be down to my fucking lips, so it's fine.
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Yeah, and I will say you got great morning energy because it's, I mean, it's not early, but it's not late either.
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And you seem like you're exactly who you are in the middle of the day or the end of the day.
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Oh, yeah.
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Morning is like my vibe.
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I would say 6 p.m. is not me anymore.
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I become decrepit.
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Wow, that's amazing.
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Yeah, but yeah, let's get into it.
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Yeah, so let's start with you.
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Have you ever had anything like this happen?
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Has anyone ever left your business and become your competitor?
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And if they do, did you see it as a betrayal?
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Not to the extent of reads, for sure.
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Read marks or up markets.
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Like I kind of discovered something later on and well, I guess he discovered it later on as well.
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But no, one of my favorite employees, I found out that she was shooting real estate while working for me and it's in the contract.
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Lawyer written contracts that you can't do that.
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It's still there in all our contracts.
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And I was really hurt by it, but I wasn't scared.
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I didn't lose any clients at all.
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And I knew that it wasn't going to work out anyways because she hated real estate.
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So I was like, this is just something to fill.
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I don't know, maybe a...
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I don't know...
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fill her time or something that she's actually good at.
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And, but I knew it wasn't something to be afraid of.
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And then I brought it up to her after.
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I was like, listen, I know you were doing this.
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This is not cool.
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And I was, I felt really hurt by it.
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And she apologized.
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And I was like, it's fine.
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It's fine.
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Like, whatever life goes on, but not to Reed's extent, that's for sure.
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And yeah, I, like, I truly don't think it will happen.
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Reid felt the same way too.
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He felt like it could never happen to him.
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And from the sounds of it, and I don't know this guy's name, and I guess we, you know, I'm not even going to bother trying to figure it out because it'll just keep things easier on our end.
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But from the way they described it, he was like...
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They trained him.
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He had been in the business for a long time.
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They had a great relationship.
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They weren't like going out for drinks, but he knew him really well.
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And it was, and to them, it was extremely surprising.
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But before I like dive deep into that, I wanted to know this person on your team who was essentially moonlighting.
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Was it a result of her just not having enough hours?
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Did she need more money?
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Like what, there's the cat, like these home episodes.
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Why do you think she was doing that?
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I don't know.
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Like, genuinely, I don't know.
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If I said this person's name, everyone would be shocked for sure, but I'm not going to do that.
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She, like, was doing it.
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She quit.
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Handed like her hard drives back and all that kind of stuff.
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And I went through the hard drives and I saw like listings on there that we don't we don't have.
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And I was like, what the fuck?
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I was like, this is brutal.
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Yeah.
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Like maybe she was just trying to find like maybe she just wanted to see if she could be like a business owner.
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Like, I don't know.
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You never got really the goods.
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She just said, oops, sorry.
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Sorry.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Oops, sorry kind of thing.
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And it's just like, you know, it ended up didn't working out.
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Like she didn't do real estate for much longer on her own because she genuinely hated it.
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And I knew she hated it working with me.
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Like I knew like shooting houses was not her thing.
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Like she hated working with agents.
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Like I knew that.
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So when I saw that she was doing it, I was shocked.
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I was like, what the heck?
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But for me, it was just like, I like I truly try and find employees who are
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are not business owners.
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Like, who can't run a business to our level?
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Like...
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Because essentially, I feel like that is what could happen.
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And I think, yeah, I think I make a conscious decision asking them like, hey, in the interview process, like, what is what is your five year goal?
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Like, do you want to own a business?
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Like, and if if you do, like, what does that business look like?
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But most people don't want to or like they have the characteristics that they're too shy to or not too shy because not everyone on my team is shy.
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Most of them aren't.
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That in their blood.
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I'm looking for a word.
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I can't.
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It's too early for me to think of the word.
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No, no, I'm not laughing at you.
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You're searching for the word.
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I just keep on realizing you're in a mask and it's just making me laugh.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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So hold on.
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So was she shooting your clients or were these other clients?
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Other clients.
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Okay.
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Yes.
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So there is a difference.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, and so she had somehow gone out and prospected, found those clients, and then was squeezing in shoots between the regular shoots that you guys were having.
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Interesting.
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Interesting.
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Yeah.
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And so you're vetting people when you're hiring them and you're saying, hey, do you have any ambition?
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If they say no, you're like, hired.
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Perfect.
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That's what I need on my team.
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Yeah?
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Mm-hmm.
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I know that's not exactly it, but you are conscious of that because you have quite a large team.
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Essentially, I have two, I don't want to call them full-time guys that work with me, one in Costa Rica, one here in Canada.
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And my Canadian shooter, his name is BJ Hajolt, he is down in Bradford.
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And when he came on the team, he told me...
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Like right out the gates, he's like, I want to do this as a business, but I don't want to do it in your territory.
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I don't live up there, but I'm willing to drive up and fill in for you because I want to learn everything.
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And then I want to open up this exact business in his region.
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And he has, it's called Countryside Media.
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And we just drew lines on the map.
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And I said, hey, I will take all the help I can get because I'm overrun.
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And then, you know, as you get busy, and I suspected it would take a while.
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He's in a more competitive market.
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Yeah.
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And I'm always fearing the day that he really hits a home run and starts becoming busy because then I know I'll lose him and I'll have to replace him.
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And where I live up here in Muskoka, Ontario, it's a weird hiring market that just doesn't seem to be super motivated people that want to make money and drive around in the car all day and shoot houses.
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I just can't find somebody.
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And so I've been having to hire from like out of the market.
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And so now I have BJ, but he told me right off the hop, he was like, I want to do what you do.
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My sneaky plan is to get big enough and busy enough that eventually I make him an offer he can't refuse and essentially create some sort of partnership where I can be head of marketing and sales and he can be head of operations because he's really, really good with that.
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And then we could combine our regions.
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Yeah.
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What I thought was great about him, he's also older, like not older than me, but he's an older shooter.
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He's not a young shooter.
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And so I think he's just been in business long enough that he was just real straight up about it.
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And that was also really healthy, right?
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Because I knew his intentions going in.
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So it was a really easy hire for me because I wasn't surprised to see his business pop up.
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If anything, I've actually been coaching him on how to get more clients and how to be successful.
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Yeah.
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So I think for anyone out there, because I think, you know, I shot weddings back in the day.
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I worked for a company in Toronto.
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And again, I specifically worked for that company because I wanted to see how it all worked so I could start my own business up here in Muskoka in my own region.
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So I think, you know, it happens all the time.
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And yeah, yeah.
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A lot of people do, maybe if they don't start with ambition, eventually they, you know, they see what you do and they think like, oh, it's not that complicated.
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And Alex is taking, you know, like, I think in my company, we usually do a 35 or 40% split depending on the lift in the work.
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And so for them, they're looking at me and they're like, man, I'm going out shooting, doing all the hard work.
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And Oliver's taking 65% of the final bag, which is not true at all because there's money that goes into marketing.
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There's money that goes into editing.
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There's money that goes into HD Photo Hub.
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There's all this stuff that I'm spending that you don't see necessarily just when you're the employee.
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And then when you go to step out of that, which is what happened to me in weddings when I finally started working on my own.
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I realized how much admin and how much hand-holding happens on the business side.
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And then when I started hiring second shooters to shoot my weddings, I felt like they were getting overpaid.
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And it kind of came full circle.
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Where until you're the boss, you don't really understand what goes into running a business.
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And that split that you're getting and the fact that you just get to shoot, drop your camera, go home...
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have a drink, you know, walk your dog and just like check out.
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That is the joy of being the employee.
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And that's also why you probably feel like, you know, people could try to steal my business and compete with me, but most don't have it long term.
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Correct.
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And you know what?
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I'm actually, the more you're talking about your employee, I have an employee right now in Niagara and she's our Niagara shooter.
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She came to me and she was like, Alex, I want to do the same thing.
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And I'm like, awesome.
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I don't...
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But like, there's something about it that I don't see her as a threat.
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I don't know what it is.
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But I don't think people...
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would leave Northern Spruce Media to go to a starter company who doesn't have the systems, the client care, the onboarding, the way we have it figured out.
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Like we have put, we're going in nine years now, like we have it figured out.
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So for someone to leave me, which any client can leave me, any client minus a couple who are bound by contract.
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But like,
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They they yeah, they could go test it out.
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They'll be like, shit, I made a mistake and come right back.
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Like, go ahead and make a mistake.
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It's it's going to make me feel better because you're going to realize how much how good it is over here.
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And then I interviewed somebody last week.
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She's also in Niagara.
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And she's just she's just a sweetie, like just a sweetheart.
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And she is like a mom, very mature.
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And she was like, I admire you.
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Like I started shooting real estate and like I need more work.
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And I was like, awesome.
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Like I like you, I will coach you.
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Like I want to see you succeed.
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Am I worried about you?
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No, because I do have it all figured out.
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You know, and I do have a massive clientele and I'm just like, I'm not fearful.
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I used to be so scared of what happened to upmarket that it was going to happen to me to the point where I was probably anxious when I was hiring people.
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But now I just don't care because I have it down pat.
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And my clients are really loyal.
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00:13:08.319 --> 00:13:09.040
They really are.
228
00:13:09.551 --> 00:13:15.079
Yeah, so don't you feel like Mark and Reid felt that way?
229
00:13:15.279 --> 00:13:25.934
Like that they felt like, oh, we got it dialed in, this guy, and like these clients are hiring up Mark, they're not hiring whoever the videographer or photographer was, but clearly in their case,
230
00:13:26.655 --> 00:13:38.972
He left under the pretense that he was going into a different career and then immediately started a company that apparently he really hid the ownership of so that Mark and Reed couldn't see who the competitor was.
231
00:13:39.512 --> 00:13:42.256
And then from what they say on the podcast,
232
00:13:43.257 --> 00:14:01.410
He took their number one client, essentially, which to me, if you know, I don't like I, I always like to think of it like when I think like as a writer and the movies, I'm like, why would a big real estate agent leave a company that they know, trust and love to go to a brand new company?
233
00:14:01.750 --> 00:14:08.114
And the only thing I can think is the reason is because they have a relationship with that shooter and they're like, you know what, I'll go with you.
234
00:14:08.134 --> 00:14:11.557
And I don't know, you know, if he sweetened the deal with money.
235
00:14:11.937 --> 00:14:14.259
But he definitely has the relationship.
236
00:14:14.279 --> 00:14:15.160
And that's the best.
237
00:14:15.440 --> 00:14:18.543
That to me would be the biggest motivator is that like they're like, no, no, no.
238
00:14:18.563 --> 00:14:19.363
We love you.
239
00:14:19.544 --> 00:14:20.464
So we're going with you.
240
00:14:21.185 --> 00:14:25.188
I think that I think that that company has come back to upmarket.
241
00:14:25.208 --> 00:14:26.429
I'm not entirely sure.
242
00:14:26.449 --> 00:14:29.552
You know, I'm hearing what you're saying with with the confidence.
243
00:14:30.033 --> 00:14:32.355
But I feel like that's how Mark and Reed felt.
244
00:14:32.535 --> 00:14:33.556
And then they did lose.
245
00:14:33.656 --> 00:14:37.559
Like what would happen to you if you lost your biggest agent?
246
00:14:37.679 --> 00:14:39.721
Like how much of a hunk out of your business would that be?
247
00:14:40.527 --> 00:14:41.388
Oh my God.
248
00:14:41.828 --> 00:14:42.589
It would be big.
249
00:14:43.249 --> 00:14:43.750
It'd be big.
250
00:14:43.850 --> 00:14:45.571
I'd have to lay people off for sure.
251
00:14:46.312 --> 00:14:47.593
But that person's under contract.
252
00:14:47.753 --> 00:14:48.634
They are under contract.
253
00:14:48.654 --> 00:14:49.554
So they're on a retainer.
254
00:14:49.915 --> 00:14:53.878
So like they pay the same every single month, no matter how many shoots they do.
255
00:14:54.518 --> 00:14:56.100
It's very, very specialized.
256
00:14:56.580 --> 00:14:57.120
And that's the thing.
257
00:14:57.261 --> 00:15:00.964
I don't, once again, I don't think someone could even match that.
258
00:15:01.684 --> 00:15:05.027
Unless they had their shit figured out because it is extremely overwhelming.
259
00:15:05.047 --> 00:15:09.772
Like you have to be my size to have someone like the golfy team.
260
00:15:09.872 --> 00:15:13.655
Like you have to be my size because they've tried it with other people before.
261
00:15:13.715 --> 00:15:17.059
And the reason why they left other companies was because they couldn't keep up.
262
00:15:17.299 --> 00:15:18.320
But yeah, no, I...
263
00:15:19.722 --> 00:15:23.463
I want to talk a little bit about that because I'm sure there's listeners out there.
264
00:15:23.483 --> 00:15:24.984
They're like, oh, my size.
265
00:15:25.004 --> 00:15:26.524
So like how big is Alex?
266
00:15:26.564 --> 00:15:28.204
And then also what is it like?
267
00:15:28.244 --> 00:15:29.925
So this is a big team that you landed.
268
00:15:30.025 --> 00:15:33.846
They're under contract without going massively into details.
269
00:15:34.366 --> 00:15:36.987
If you had to like one major thing that...
270
00:15:37.727 --> 00:15:39.609
that made it possible for you to land them.
271
00:15:39.729 --> 00:15:40.309
What was it?
272
00:15:40.369 --> 00:15:42.451
Was it your personal relationship?
273
00:15:42.511 --> 00:15:43.992
Was it the Alex Coombs effect?
274
00:15:44.032 --> 00:15:46.754
Or like, what was it that you offered them that they couldn't get elsewhere?
275
00:15:46.894 --> 00:15:48.676
Did you show up in a face mask?
276
00:15:48.716 --> 00:15:49.877
Like, what happened?
277
00:15:51.037 --> 00:15:51.377
Yeah.
278
00:15:51.978 --> 00:15:53.019
No, you know what it is.
279
00:15:53.199 --> 00:16:02.126
And like, I get asked this all the time is it's because I've shown up to every single Christmas party, every single awards.
280
00:16:02.386 --> 00:16:05.048
I've showed up to the golf tournaments.
281
00:16:05.108 --> 00:16:11.173
My face or my team, my logo is on every pamphlet, on every presentation.
282
00:16:11.533 --> 00:16:12.534
Like I am there.
283
00:16:12.554 --> 00:16:14.896
Oh, there she is.
284
00:16:14.916 --> 00:16:15.577
Yeah.
285
00:16:16.580 --> 00:16:25.568
And, you know, I've been introduced to Rob so many times and he just got used to seeing me and he knew my scale.
286
00:16:25.909 --> 00:16:32.195
And then it got to the point where I think like the company that he was using, which, you know, I love the company that he was using.
287
00:16:32.295 --> 00:16:35.698
I looked up to them like they're the people that I admired and I still do.
288
00:16:36.518 --> 00:16:38.841
And when we sat down, like...
289
00:16:39.401 --> 00:16:41.062
I was like, okay, tell me all the things.
290
00:16:41.162 --> 00:16:42.642
How many listings do you do a year?
291
00:16:42.662 --> 00:16:44.683
And I just created packages.
292
00:16:44.843 --> 00:16:48.584
And then we sat down, we reviewed them, and it wasn't good enough.
293
00:16:48.624 --> 00:16:49.924
And I was like, okay, let me go back.
294
00:16:49.964 --> 00:16:51.605
It took about three months to lock it in.
295
00:16:52.445 --> 00:16:56.126
And yeah, it was just like a heavy grind to get it.
296
00:16:56.226 --> 00:17:00.508
But I said, hey, you will have your own golfy email.
297
00:17:00.988 --> 00:17:04.129
So customer service and bookings will take care of just that.
298
00:17:05.029 --> 00:17:08.170
I will hire two new people so we can handle your volume.
299
00:17:08.830 --> 00:17:11.691
So I hired two people full time to handle Golfie's volume.
300
00:17:12.151 --> 00:17:24.495
And then I needed an extra editor because when you're doing over a thousand listings a year, one person, you need to make sure you can handle that plus what you're already doing.
301
00:17:24.775 --> 00:17:26.415
So I just said, this is what I'll do.
302
00:17:26.435 --> 00:17:27.956
This is what it's going to take.
303
00:17:28.736 --> 00:17:35.258
And I got thrown back into the field for a hot second because I couldn't find people good enough to like...
304
00:17:35.898 --> 00:17:37.059
work it and handle the volume.
305
00:17:37.119 --> 00:17:39.380
So I started shooting for months again.
306
00:17:39.420 --> 00:17:42.621
And I was like, man, I'm going backwards here.
307
00:17:42.641 --> 00:17:43.442
I don't know.
308
00:17:43.902 --> 00:17:46.723
But no, it's figured out and it's good.
309
00:17:46.924 --> 00:17:47.844
It's really good.
310
00:17:48.264 --> 00:17:51.646
And the contract's being renewed again in October.
311
00:17:52.146 --> 00:17:53.427
And we've talked about it already.
312
00:17:53.487 --> 00:17:57.169
And he was like, yeah, there's no way we would not go with this again.
313
00:17:57.189 --> 00:17:57.669
So...
314
00:17:57.989 --> 00:18:03.912
But it's just showing face, showing face and just representing what we do.
315
00:18:04.132 --> 00:18:05.513
We're constantly online.
316
00:18:05.533 --> 00:18:08.614
We're constantly at all these realtor events.
317
00:18:08.654 --> 00:18:09.575
We're always there.
318
00:18:09.975 --> 00:18:13.616
And if you're not doing that, then people aren't going to know who you are.
319
00:18:13.757 --> 00:18:19.679
And then it makes it easy to choose ABCD, EFG companies because they're everywhere now.
320
00:18:19.739 --> 00:18:22.501
I think real estate media companies are like Tim Hortons.
321
00:18:22.681 --> 00:18:24.101
They're on every single corner.
322
00:18:24.121 --> 00:18:24.322
Yeah.
323
00:18:25.362 --> 00:18:29.464
everybody's shooting real estate now because they think it's easy, but it's actually not.
324
00:18:29.704 --> 00:18:31.766
No, not long term and not with good systems.
325
00:18:31.786 --> 00:18:35.107
You can pick up one or two clients and they're like, oh, I got a bit of extra pocket money.
326
00:18:35.148 --> 00:18:36.488
Maybe I should do this full time.
327
00:18:36.969 --> 00:18:41.131
And then you get slapped in the face with reality once it becomes, once you get like busy.
328
00:18:41.331 --> 00:18:44.773
And that's where, yeah, that's where a lot of businesses fall apart.
329
00:18:45.173 --> 00:18:48.514
Okay, so it was truly your relationship with them.
330
00:18:48.854 --> 00:18:53.796
After the contracts were signed, did they expect to see a lot of you?
331
00:18:53.876 --> 00:18:55.717
Or they're just like, okay, we trust you.
332
00:18:55.837 --> 00:18:57.177
And then it could be any of your shooters.
333
00:18:57.197 --> 00:18:59.298
Like, you didn't need to be showing face anymore.
334
00:18:59.438 --> 00:19:01.799
Yeah, they already knew, like, I wasn't shooting.
335
00:19:01.819 --> 00:19:02.679
Okay.
336
00:19:03.039 --> 00:19:04.280
So they weren't expecting that.
337
00:19:04.380 --> 00:19:08.101
They just expected me to make sure everything was running smoothly.
338
00:19:08.521 --> 00:19:10.682
And to be honest, like, it took...
339
00:19:12.538 --> 00:19:19.441
I asked for a month to hire, train, and do that whole thing, but it was a week.
340
00:19:20.822 --> 00:19:27.445
Something happened with him and the other media company, and Rob called me directly, and he was like, hey, Alex, I need you to start Monday.
341
00:19:27.585 --> 00:19:28.165
And I was like,
342
00:19:30.588 --> 00:19:31.689
I was like, okay.
343
00:19:32.250 --> 00:19:33.111
Like, what am I going to say?
344
00:19:33.171 --> 00:19:33.391
No.
345
00:19:33.631 --> 00:19:34.813
Like, I was like, all right.
346
00:19:34.853 --> 00:19:36.034
Like, we'll just figure it out.
347
00:19:36.134 --> 00:19:39.438
And that's where I always say, like, bite off more than you can chew and figure out how to fucking chew it.
348
00:19:39.598 --> 00:19:46.466
Because it's like, in that moment, I was not going to say no because I'm getting the biggest contract I've ever signed in my life.
349
00:19:46.906 --> 00:19:48.528
And it's going to hold us through the winter.
350
00:19:48.648 --> 00:19:49.469
And it's going to, like.
351
00:19:50.285 --> 00:19:51.745
always make sure that we're stable.
352
00:19:52.786 --> 00:19:58.847
And yeah, I had to throw myself back into that, into the fires, I guess.
353
00:19:58.887 --> 00:19:59.127
Yeah.
354
00:19:59.768 --> 00:20:09.050
So there's nobody on your team that you feel has any type of relationship with his team where they would say, you know what, we're splintering off from Alex.
355
00:20:09.670 --> 00:20:10.530
Why don't you come with us?
356
00:20:10.550 --> 00:20:12.011
We'll make you even a sweeter deal.
357
00:20:12.031 --> 00:20:14.211
Like there's, you have no fear of that.
358
00:20:14.231 --> 00:20:16.612
And that would never, you just don't see that being possible.
359
00:20:17.277 --> 00:20:17.477
No.
360
00:20:18.157 --> 00:20:18.318
Yeah.
361
00:20:18.978 --> 00:20:19.178
Yeah.
362
00:20:19.898 --> 00:20:20.899
That's what I was going to ask.
363
00:20:20.999 --> 00:20:25.761
Do you feel that your employees owe you loyalty or just professionalism?
364
00:20:26.161 --> 00:20:27.402
I don't think they owe me loyalty.
365
00:20:27.462 --> 00:20:27.702
No.
366
00:20:27.722 --> 00:20:27.782
No.
367
00:20:29.273 --> 00:20:33.918
But like they know I work really hard to keep a stable business.
368
00:20:34.279 --> 00:20:36.161
You know, like they see me grinding.
369
00:20:36.201 --> 00:20:37.923
They see me constantly like busy.
370
00:20:37.943 --> 00:20:40.305
My calendar is always full, not doing nothing.
371
00:20:40.365 --> 00:20:49.355
I take the most I take the less vacations because I don't have the time because I do want to constantly keep growing.
372
00:20:49.536 --> 00:20:50.396
Oh, my God, this cat.
373
00:20:50.977 --> 00:20:52.098
Yeah, I know.
374
00:20:52.118 --> 00:20:52.498
Naked cat.
375
00:20:52.978 --> 00:20:55.599
Yeah, she's hungry for the podcast.
376
00:20:55.839 --> 00:20:56.259
Oh, okay.
377
00:20:56.279 --> 00:20:56.639
I got you.
378
00:20:56.659 --> 00:20:59.961
I was like, well, cats are always naked, but no, it's a hairless cat, right?
379
00:21:00.121 --> 00:21:01.021
Yeah, hairless cat.
380
00:21:01.061 --> 00:21:08.925
Yeah, no, my employees, I give them a lot too, you know, like...
381
00:21:09.925 --> 00:21:12.507
I if they need something, I have their back.
382
00:21:12.887 --> 00:21:16.730
If they request like a vacation without pay, I'm like, go for it.
383
00:21:17.770 --> 00:21:23.915
Like I want them to live their life as as much as possible because life's too short and I don't want them just to always think about work.
384
00:21:25.335 --> 00:21:26.536
And then we do like team things.
385
00:21:26.576 --> 00:21:31.179
And I like I don't know, like, is that something that maybe upmarket upmarket could have done better?
386
00:21:31.219 --> 00:21:33.161
Like, was the culture there?
387
00:21:33.181 --> 00:21:33.281
Yeah.
388
00:21:34.704 --> 00:21:36.405
Were they connecting with their employees?
389
00:21:37.066 --> 00:21:42.329
Like, I know some local flavor, Kelly meets with her employees once a month.
390
00:21:42.729 --> 00:21:44.390
And I'm like, I don't do that.
391
00:21:44.871 --> 00:21:46.051
That's crazy.
392
00:21:46.071 --> 00:21:48.873
But she's constantly in contact with them, making sure they're good.
393
00:21:49.353 --> 00:21:53.176
We're constantly in contact with our employees and making sure they're good.
394
00:21:53.196 --> 00:21:58.319
So it's like, maybe there was a crack where it's like, they could have caught it earlier.
395
00:21:58.339 --> 00:21:58.980
I don't know.
396
00:21:59.608 --> 00:22:03.452
Does your team all come into the office or a bunch of them remote?
397
00:22:03.652 --> 00:22:05.334
Yeah, everyone comes into the office.
398
00:22:05.394 --> 00:22:11.120
So if they have huge gaps in between their day, they'll come into the office and support anywhere.
399
00:22:11.240 --> 00:22:13.522
Like even if they're doing dishes, like they'll support.
400
00:22:14.083 --> 00:22:20.029
And then we have once a month, we have big team meetings and review like best videos of the month.
401
00:22:20.089 --> 00:22:22.692
And we give $50 Amazon gift cards to people online.
402
00:22:23.232 --> 00:22:28.875
And then I meet with the team, all my members every now and then and just like say, hey, how's it going?
403
00:22:29.316 --> 00:22:31.117
You know, this is going really well for you.
404
00:22:31.137 --> 00:22:32.657
This isn't going so well.
405
00:22:32.698 --> 00:22:34.078
Like, what is your goals?
406
00:22:34.479 --> 00:22:36.019
Just like staying in contact with them.
407
00:22:36.340 --> 00:22:38.921
I think it's really important because it does.
408
00:22:39.381 --> 00:22:41.062
You are investing in them, right?
409
00:22:41.162 --> 00:22:44.244
Like you work for your employee, like you're investing in them.
410
00:22:44.284 --> 00:22:46.305
So you want to make sure that they are happy.
411
00:22:46.405 --> 00:22:48.887
And if they're they're not check in.
412
00:22:49.247 --> 00:22:51.247
Yeah, that was going to be my question here.
413
00:22:51.307 --> 00:22:57.289
And I want to tread lightly, but Reid does address it on his podcast.
414
00:22:57.809 --> 00:23:03.190
And the question is, can leadership failures explain betrayal without excusing it?
415
00:23:03.290 --> 00:23:07.371
And I mean, you just touched upon it there, you know, culture, leadership.
416
00:23:08.291 --> 00:23:15.032
Reid asks the question to himself and to Mark on the podcast, like, is there anything that we could have done differently?
417
00:23:15.553 --> 00:23:17.513
And he even admits, you know, he says that,
418
00:23:17.933 --> 00:23:31.336
he could see his weakness being that this guy left the company and went to his competitors and says, you know, because Reed is, you know, he's very forthright and very funny about essentially not liking real estate agents.
419
00:23:31.376 --> 00:23:33.356
And I know it's kind of tongue in cheek, but he does.
420
00:23:33.456 --> 00:23:34.797
It's kind of part of the brand.
421
00:23:35.197 --> 00:23:40.358
And then he was reflecting on that saying like, you know, he could use that against me.
422
00:23:40.438 --> 00:23:40.658
Right.
423
00:23:41.078 --> 00:23:43.620
And I guess, you know, everything in your brand can be used against me.
424
00:23:43.660 --> 00:23:48.184
Like I could be seen as too happy-go-lucky and like too much of a surfer bro.
425
00:23:48.245 --> 00:23:52.348
And maybe you're just too like bubbly and fun and like, who knows what it is, right?
426
00:23:52.368 --> 00:23:54.190
Like something can be used against you.
427
00:23:54.770 --> 00:24:03.038
And so that's what he was, he was like thinking of himself as a leader and saying like, did I set the stage for this to be able to happen?
428
00:24:03.318 --> 00:24:05.420
And I think that's a good question.
429
00:24:05.520 --> 00:24:07.822
And I mean, you did address it, but I just wanted to really...
430
00:24:08.202 --> 00:24:15.538
make it clear, like, is there anything in leadership that you think about that you do to protect yourself from this type of situation?
431
00:24:16.015 --> 00:24:16.315
I don't.
432
00:24:17.376 --> 00:24:20.439
Yeah, I think it's just like the things I was just talking about, really.
433
00:24:20.539 --> 00:24:21.840
And I could probably do better at it.
434
00:24:21.940 --> 00:24:23.761
Like I probably could do better at it.
435
00:24:23.982 --> 00:24:32.008
I could do things like what Kelly does at Local Flavor and meet with my employees once a month, even once every two months, you know, and do check ins.
436
00:24:32.268 --> 00:24:34.931
I also rely heavily on my leaders.
437
00:24:35.311 --> 00:24:35.531
Right.
438
00:24:35.591 --> 00:24:42.156
So Felipe and Kate on my team, they lead the video team or actually video and photo team.
439
00:24:42.917 --> 00:24:49.900
And I rely on them to check in with the employees, you know, like check in to make sure like their stuff is looking good.
440
00:24:49.980 --> 00:24:59.584
Like meet with them if, you know, I do rely on them to also step up because that's in their role and that's in their their SOP essentially.
441
00:24:59.644 --> 00:25:02.526
So I do participate in the video stuff.
442
00:25:02.606 --> 00:25:05.387
And like when I see a video, I'm like, oh, my God, this is amazing.
443
00:25:05.407 --> 00:25:12.170
I put my hand up and I vote like and I definitely reward good work for sure.
444
00:25:12.550 --> 00:25:19.451
Is your mindset with all of this, like I make Northern Spruce Media like such a great place to work that no one would want to leave?
445
00:25:19.872 --> 00:25:23.892
Or is your mindset, I do my best to make sure no one leaves?
446
00:25:24.472 --> 00:25:26.473
Or is there a third option?
447
00:25:26.493 --> 00:25:29.954
But like, you know, because I guess there's fear-based mentality.
448
00:25:30.014 --> 00:25:32.414
Like, I really want to make sure that no one leaves.
449
00:25:33.134 --> 00:25:36.335
Or there's like, I know that we are the cat's pajamas.
450
00:25:36.695 --> 00:25:41.076
And I just, because I invest so hard in that, speaking of cat's pajamas, I'm like,
451
00:25:41.756 --> 00:25:45.418
I just don't fear that people will... Because that's what I'm getting from you.
452
00:25:45.478 --> 00:25:48.199
You don't really... You don't live with fear.
453
00:25:48.479 --> 00:25:49.960
There's no fear in your business.
454
00:25:50.000 --> 00:25:53.322
Maybe how do you keep the lights on and keep the contracts coming in?
455
00:25:53.342 --> 00:25:57.484
But as far as how you run your business, it seems quite fearless.
456
00:25:57.504 --> 00:26:00.645
You're like, I don't think anyone's going to outwork me.
457
00:26:01.666 --> 00:26:02.666
Shout out our podcast.
458
00:26:03.346 --> 00:26:04.427
I used to live in fear.
459
00:26:04.667 --> 00:26:05.567
I honestly used to.
460
00:26:05.768 --> 00:26:08.209
But that was just me not...
461
00:26:09.207 --> 00:26:12.249
I was just like a young business owner.
462
00:26:12.609 --> 00:26:13.550
And I thought- What changed?
463
00:26:14.250 --> 00:26:17.893
Was there a magic moment where you went from fear to fearlessness?
464
00:26:18.153 --> 00:26:24.917
I think what changed was realizing all the other real estate media companies were not like my enemy.
465
00:26:25.617 --> 00:26:26.918
And they were just like me.
466
00:26:27.118 --> 00:26:31.681
Like, sure, there's a couple that I really dislike and I will never talk to them.
467
00:26:31.701 --> 00:26:32.542
Why do you dislike them?
468
00:26:33.602 --> 00:26:34.443
Why do you dislike them?
469
00:26:34.523 --> 00:26:36.023
Are they bargain basement?
470
00:26:36.363 --> 00:26:38.044
They're just dicks.
471
00:26:38.844 --> 00:26:39.004
Cool.
472
00:26:39.064 --> 00:26:39.405
I should.
473
00:26:40.165 --> 00:26:41.585
Yeah.
474
00:26:41.825 --> 00:26:42.106
No.
475
00:26:42.646 --> 00:26:42.966
Yeah.
476
00:26:43.906 --> 00:26:44.346
That's okay.
477
00:26:44.366 --> 00:26:45.027
They can be dicks.
478
00:26:45.427 --> 00:26:51.809
But I know you don't want to make any enemies out there, but is there anything you can allude to?
479
00:26:51.869 --> 00:26:53.170
What is dickish about them?
480
00:26:54.214 --> 00:26:59.278
Oh, there's just like this one company and they just they're just slimy.
481
00:26:59.418 --> 00:27:07.124
There's just like, you know, you think Alex, you think Oliver and you're like and then you see this company like, OK, you don't jive.
482
00:27:07.504 --> 00:27:10.366
You're like, you know, you have your cool circle.
483
00:27:10.446 --> 00:27:11.767
We have our cool circle.
484
00:27:11.967 --> 00:27:12.368
And like.
485
00:27:13.188 --> 00:27:15.030
We can try and be friends.
486
00:27:15.230 --> 00:27:19.435
And then you try and you're like, actually, no, we think so differently.
487
00:27:19.455 --> 00:27:24.441
Now, just a couple of years ago, this person was, I think they were just desperate.
488
00:27:24.521 --> 00:27:25.181
Like, I don't know.
489
00:27:25.722 --> 00:27:29.506
They started DMing all my employees trying to get them to work for them.
490
00:27:30.147 --> 00:27:32.409
And my loyal employees were like,
491
00:27:33.483 --> 00:27:34.084
hell no.
492
00:27:34.144 --> 00:27:36.026
Like, I'm not going to go work for that company.
493
00:27:36.086 --> 00:27:37.527
Like, I have it so good here.
494
00:27:37.667 --> 00:27:39.969
And I love Northern Spruce Media.
495
00:27:40.410 --> 00:27:41.171
Did they show you?
496
00:27:41.231 --> 00:27:42.071
Oh, yeah.
497
00:27:42.112 --> 00:27:42.932
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
498
00:27:43.213 --> 00:27:43.913
They showed me.
499
00:27:43.953 --> 00:27:44.814
They told me.
500
00:27:44.934 --> 00:27:46.596
Like, some of them got phone calls.
501
00:27:47.036 --> 00:27:49.299
And I had that guy's phone number on my phone.
502
00:27:49.399 --> 00:27:49.899
I called them.
503
00:27:50.019 --> 00:27:50.740
I called their office.
504
00:27:50.800 --> 00:27:53.241
first and I was like, hey, is this person here?
505
00:27:53.541 --> 00:27:54.501
And they're like, no.
506
00:27:54.621 --> 00:27:56.641
And I was like, this is Alex from Orleans First Media.
507
00:27:56.661 --> 00:27:58.002
Get this person to call me right away.
508
00:27:59.022 --> 00:28:02.303
And then I realized I actually had his cell phone number in my phone.
509
00:28:02.683 --> 00:28:08.004
So I called him and he was like, wouldn't you want your people to have a better opportunity and grow?
510
00:28:08.084 --> 00:28:12.305
And I was like, at what point are my employees going to grow with you and not me?
511
00:28:12.765 --> 00:28:14.305
And I was like, this is ridiculous.
512
00:28:14.405 --> 00:28:17.326
And I was like, go if you want to hire people, go.
513
00:28:18.387 --> 00:28:18.847
do better.
514
00:28:19.228 --> 00:28:20.710
Don't be DMing my employees.
515
00:28:20.730 --> 00:28:22.131
This is super slimy.
516
00:28:22.552 --> 00:28:27.478
And I called him out and he just, I don't know, he was just not kind about it either.
517
00:28:27.538 --> 00:28:30.542
And I was like, go for it.
518
00:28:30.722 --> 00:28:31.884
None of my employees are leaving.
519
00:28:32.645 --> 00:28:33.987
And they didn't.
520
00:28:35.023 --> 00:28:38.708
Yeah, that's when you bump up against like the ugly parts of the world.
521
00:28:38.728 --> 00:28:46.499
Because I think, you know, I live in a pretty, like personally, like I keep my bubble pretty positive and pretty, pretty happy-go-lucky.
522
00:28:47.160 --> 00:28:50.925
But, you know, occasionally I have run into like the sharks in the business.
523
00:28:50.985 --> 00:28:51.966
And then you're like, whoa.
524
00:28:52.667 --> 00:28:55.748
you're operating with such a different brain.
525
00:28:55.888 --> 00:28:58.469
I can't even really comprehend.
526
00:28:58.489 --> 00:29:02.691
Because I have a lot of empathy and that's something I want to get into next.
527
00:29:03.091 --> 00:29:10.514
But then sometimes you run into the, they call them sharks because they're literally like, they just see blood in the water and they don't care.
528
00:29:10.634 --> 00:29:15.736
It's not like, hey, Alex has invested a bunch of time and money nurturing and growing these.
529
00:29:15.776 --> 00:29:19.297
And he's like, yeah, but if they come to me, I don't owe you anything, Alex.
530
00:29:19.737 --> 00:29:20.718
The only thing that
531
00:29:21.758 --> 00:29:27.319
This is what I try to understand is like, I guess in their mind, they see the world as a zero sum.
532
00:29:27.559 --> 00:29:30.060
And either Alex wins or I win.
533
00:29:30.360 --> 00:29:37.021
And at all costs, my job is to make sure that my company, my family, me, like I win.
534
00:29:37.402 --> 00:29:40.022
And I will step over anyone to get there.
535
00:29:40.422 --> 00:29:43.263
And you run into those people every now and then and you just think like, what a...
536
00:29:44.257 --> 00:29:47.502
shitty brain to be born into, you know?
537
00:29:47.582 --> 00:29:48.223
Like, what up?
538
00:29:48.463 --> 00:29:48.764
Sad.
539
00:29:49.084 --> 00:29:54.492
And that's what I was going to ask about, you know, the mark and the upmarket situation.
540
00:29:55.514 --> 00:29:59.119
This guy must have felt like he...
541
00:29:59.339 --> 00:30:01.080
In his brain, he must feel justified.
542
00:30:01.100 --> 00:30:03.340
He must feel like I need to take care of myself.
543
00:30:03.900 --> 00:30:05.001
So fuck these guys.
544
00:30:05.081 --> 00:30:06.021
I know they've trained me.
545
00:30:06.401 --> 00:30:08.181
I got everything I needed from them.
546
00:30:08.622 --> 00:30:11.382
And now I'm going to get mine and take care of myself.
547
00:30:11.462 --> 00:30:13.243
That must be the mentality.
548
00:30:13.943 --> 00:30:16.284
And I'm more making a statement here.
549
00:30:16.304 --> 00:30:19.164
I guess there's really not much you can do about that.
550
00:30:19.184 --> 00:30:21.025
There's just some people that are wired that way.
551
00:30:21.615 --> 00:30:21.955
Yeah.
552
00:30:22.355 --> 00:30:32.297
But I also think, though, like the one thing that me and you have said together is your employee has was honest and was like, I want to do what you're doing.
553
00:30:32.797 --> 00:30:36.538
My employees have been honest and said, I want to do what you're doing.
554
00:30:37.078 --> 00:30:41.499
And like with that honesty, you have been open enough to like coach them on it.
555
00:30:41.799 --> 00:30:44.380
And there's just like like you already know.
556
00:30:44.780 --> 00:30:49.241
But the employee that betrayed me in a sense, like I was pissed.
557
00:30:50.241 --> 00:30:53.722
And all she needed to do was just be honest, and I probably would have been okay with it.
558
00:30:54.122 --> 00:31:05.925
So it's like, if this person came to read and mark and said, Hey, I actually do want to shoot real estate, just so you know, I'm going to open up my own real estate company if this doesn't work out.
559
00:31:06.085 --> 00:31:11.747
Maybe if he was honest, it would have made the betrayal less painful, but...
560
00:31:13.014 --> 00:31:21.917
But regardless, like he should have never, ever, ever, ever, ever like when stole other their clients like that is just that's awful for sure.
561
00:31:21.937 --> 00:31:23.117
That's that's the step.
562
00:31:23.497 --> 00:31:24.998
Yeah, that's the step over the line.
563
00:31:25.038 --> 00:31:28.219
Like, I think he could have said, hey, I'm going to go out on my own.
564
00:31:29.459 --> 00:31:33.041
I'm not going to touch any of your clients, or at least I won't reach out to them if they come to me.
565
00:31:33.101 --> 00:31:39.323
But that would have been the, I don't know, the noble or the right way to do it, which was my next question.
566
00:31:40.724 --> 00:31:44.786
You have a couple of contracts, but other than that, it's all just good relationships.
567
00:31:45.386 --> 00:31:49.448
Who in your, do you feel like you own the relationships with these agents?
568
00:31:49.488 --> 00:31:52.949
There's probably agents that work with your team that you don't even know, right?
569
00:31:53.229 --> 00:31:57.031
They're just, so they know your videographers and photographers better.
570
00:31:57.091 --> 00:31:59.112
So who do you think owns that relationship?
571
00:31:59.582 --> 00:32:02.734
Honestly, the first point of contact, which is bookings.
572
00:32:03.557 --> 00:32:03.778
Mm hmm.
573
00:32:04.344 --> 00:32:05.845
Yeah, booking zones that relationship.
574
00:32:05.985 --> 00:32:12.170
And then the photographer that shows up is the second relationship, whether it's the same one or two.
575
00:32:12.871 --> 00:32:20.977
But I do think, though, for the most part, it starts with me showing my face online and at those presentations and stuff.
576
00:32:21.537 --> 00:32:24.160
They're always finding us out from somewhere.
577
00:32:24.420 --> 00:32:28.383
And I don't think it's because they're like on Google real estate media company.
578
00:32:28.703 --> 00:32:31.866
I think it's because they're referred or they see us online.
579
00:32:32.106 --> 00:32:33.387
And that starts with me.
580
00:32:33.407 --> 00:32:33.507
Yeah.
581
00:32:34.283 --> 00:32:34.463
Yeah.
582
00:32:34.763 --> 00:32:35.844
So follow up question to that.
583
00:32:36.284 --> 00:32:42.528
Do you keep certain photographers with certain agents or do you really like, does everyone interchangeable?
584
00:32:43.449 --> 00:32:50.933
For example, there's this one very luxury team out in Oakville and they only want Kate.
585
00:32:51.894 --> 00:32:52.454
Only want her.
586
00:32:52.754 --> 00:32:53.214
That's it.
587
00:32:53.655 --> 00:32:56.176
And if they don't get her, they're immediately.
588
00:32:56.717 --> 00:32:56.937
Yeah.
589
00:32:56.957 --> 00:32:57.597
Good job, Kate.
590
00:32:57.877 --> 00:32:59.658
There's a reason why she's a leader on the team now.
591
00:32:59.678 --> 00:33:00.439
Yeah.
592
00:33:00.459 --> 00:33:00.519
So.
593
00:33:02.796 --> 00:33:05.688
Can I ask you, what does she do that's so special?
594
00:33:06.170 --> 00:33:07.033
Or is it just her vibe?
595
00:33:07.679 --> 00:33:09.920
Attention to detail, not afraid to speak up.
596
00:33:10.600 --> 00:33:19.465
So I have some team members that, you know, some people don't like shooting with them because they don't speak up when agents are on camera and correcting them.
597
00:33:20.485 --> 00:33:27.649
Agents want to be corrected, whether it's like their hair is in their face, their bra strap showing, they're like stumbling, hesitating too much.
598
00:33:27.669 --> 00:33:29.049
Like Kate will say, stop.
599
00:33:29.770 --> 00:33:30.570
Let's do that again.
600
00:33:30.890 --> 00:33:31.911
Or let's start from here.
601
00:33:32.091 --> 00:33:33.231
Or let's try it this way.
602
00:33:33.251 --> 00:33:34.052
Yeah.
603
00:33:34.072 --> 00:33:34.232
Yeah.
604
00:33:34.710 --> 00:33:38.473
And I think that takes a certain person and she's not afraid.
605
00:33:38.633 --> 00:33:40.234
Like she's not afraid to correct.
606
00:33:40.655 --> 00:33:41.295
It really does.
607
00:33:42.376 --> 00:33:51.403
I noticed like I have a variety of agents and there are some of like the luxury agents or the ones that have like specifically positioned their brand and grown in that direction.
608
00:33:51.423 --> 00:33:52.064
Yeah.
609
00:33:52.519 --> 00:33:57.101
They can be intimidating, but you have to be the director.
610
00:33:57.321 --> 00:34:00.703
Otherwise, they're like, why the fuck am I hiring this guy?
611
00:34:00.723 --> 00:34:04.205
Like, I need to look good, and your job is to make them look good.
612
00:34:04.745 --> 00:34:07.847
But they do come in with, like, I know everything.
613
00:34:08.447 --> 00:34:09.768
Their nails are done.
614
00:34:09.788 --> 00:34:10.508
Their hair is done.
615
00:34:10.528 --> 00:34:11.349
Their makeup's done.
616
00:34:12.029 --> 00:34:19.393
They walk like a supermodel, and then you have to be like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa, and correct them, and it feels like you're criticizing them.
617
00:34:20.185 --> 00:34:21.446
but you're helping them with their brand.
618
00:34:21.466 --> 00:34:24.649
And that's really not a skill that everyone can pull off.
619
00:34:25.289 --> 00:34:26.691
So that makes a lot of sense.
620
00:34:27.031 --> 00:34:29.633
And that's kind of a nice little tip to anyone who's out there.
621
00:34:30.093 --> 00:34:40.462
What you just said, like, you got to be assertive because you'll actually, your esteem will rise in their eyes if you act like a boss, because that's how they feel.
622
00:34:40.502 --> 00:34:42.344
So they want to be working with another boss.
623
00:34:42.564 --> 00:34:47.707
But like also like, okay, yeah, it's the direction on camera, but it's then it's the information you give to the editor.
624
00:34:48.247 --> 00:34:50.948
So like Kate is really good at relaying the information.
625
00:34:51.108 --> 00:34:55.610
And then when the agent sees the edit, they're like, damn.
626
00:34:55.670 --> 00:34:56.071
Nailed it.
627
00:34:56.611 --> 00:34:57.611
Kate did that.
628
00:34:57.792 --> 00:35:01.313
So then they're like very, very, it's full circle moment for sure.
629
00:35:02.054 --> 00:35:04.975
Is it a, like, you know, operationally, is it a Slack channel?
630
00:35:04.995 --> 00:35:07.276
I know I'm interrupting you a lot, but I'm just pretending.
631
00:35:07.356 --> 00:35:10.658
I'm pretending I'm listening and I'm like, but how does Kate...
632
00:35:11.398 --> 00:35:13.139
Share the information with the editor.
633
00:35:13.179 --> 00:35:14.279
What's your process there?
634
00:35:14.839 --> 00:35:16.379
Yeah, so we do have a Slack channel.
635
00:35:16.519 --> 00:35:22.521
So all the shooters write in Slack, like at this shoot, agent wants X, Y, and Z.
636
00:35:22.721 --> 00:35:24.421
So we relay all that information.
637
00:35:24.982 --> 00:35:28.603
And then Felipe puts it all in monday.com, assigns it to the editor.
638
00:35:28.703 --> 00:35:31.703
So Felipe's in charge of relaying that information.
639
00:35:32.244 --> 00:35:32.604
Okay.
640
00:35:32.664 --> 00:35:37.365
But if it's like a very intense video shoot, Felipe has a call with the agent.
641
00:35:37.985 --> 00:35:39.186
gets all the information.
642
00:35:39.246 --> 00:35:50.798
So he knows how to like, so whether it's Kate, Travis, sod, whatever, one of my shooters, he will relay that information to the shooter being like, okay, for this shoot, we're going to be doing some AI.
643
00:35:50.838 --> 00:35:54.481
So I need you to do X, Y, and Z so we can make this edit happen.
644
00:35:54.922 --> 00:35:56.744
So Felipe will take the time and have that.
645
00:35:56.764 --> 00:35:59.526
Like, it's like concierge phone call, you know?
646
00:35:59.546 --> 00:35:59.646
Yeah.
647
00:36:00.007 --> 00:36:00.187
Yeah.
648
00:36:00.915 --> 00:36:02.096
to make sure it's going to hit.
649
00:36:03.137 --> 00:36:05.178
So yeah, it depends.
650
00:36:05.459 --> 00:36:15.747
But I will say this, like I had a meeting with Kate yesterday and we were going over like her role and like what she needs to do, so on and so forth and just doing a check in.
651
00:36:16.427 --> 00:36:20.951
And I was like, eventually, Kate, like, I want to see you like running like Ontario.
652
00:36:21.131 --> 00:36:27.416
Like, I want to see you running Ontario and like, you're going to be leading, not just like our photographer is going to be leading a lot more.
653
00:36:27.836 --> 00:36:31.599
And she's like, yes, but the only thing is I never want to stop shooting.
654
00:36:31.820 --> 00:36:33.241
Like, I always want to be in the field.
655
00:36:33.661 --> 00:36:35.002
And I was like, amazing.
656
00:36:35.022 --> 00:36:35.883
Like, that's good to know.
657
00:36:36.103 --> 00:36:38.845
Like, now I know what your goal is and what you want.
658
00:36:39.386 --> 00:36:40.907
So maybe that isn't for you.
659
00:36:40.927 --> 00:36:46.651
Maybe you always just will be like a high end shooter and I'll throw you on the best of the best because we're going to get there.
660
00:36:47.827 --> 00:36:49.708
But she's a great leader.
661
00:36:49.728 --> 00:36:52.310
But now I know she always wants to shoot.
662
00:36:52.590 --> 00:36:57.874
I grew up in the military and, you know, military is all about leadership and, you know, officers and soldiers.
663
00:36:58.414 --> 00:37:02.437
And the best officers are also active in the field.
664
00:37:02.637 --> 00:37:09.601
Like there's something about that, that the rest that everyone else just respects more than someone, you know, giving directions.
665
00:37:09.621 --> 00:37:13.644
And I kind of feel like that's why it's really good as you grow your business.
666
00:37:13.684 --> 00:37:16.386
Like some people, I think, try to get out of the field too fast.
667
00:37:16.906 --> 00:37:20.007
I think you're in a position where you earn that ability to be out of the field.
668
00:37:20.748 --> 00:37:26.350
But being able to speak the language of your operators and really understanding what they're going through is a massive part.
669
00:37:26.731 --> 00:37:28.972
That's such a big part of leadership, right?
670
00:37:29.012 --> 00:37:36.095
And if the theme of this whole episode is like, how do you kind of build a moat around your business so people can't compete with you?
671
00:37:36.135 --> 00:37:40.177
And then also, how do you build retention amongst your employees?
672
00:37:41.117 --> 00:37:42.577
And I think it's like understanding them.
673
00:37:42.738 --> 00:37:50.580
And so it's important to stay in touch with what's actually happening in the field because things are changing so rapidly from last year to this year to next year.
674
00:37:50.620 --> 00:37:57.522
Like to actually understand what your shooters are doing is really helpful in them feeling understood by you
675
00:37:58.502 --> 00:38:01.705
As opposed to like, say, in two years from now, you have no idea.
676
00:38:01.725 --> 00:38:07.671
Like people just walk around the house with a wand and you don't even know how it's done anymore, but you're running the business.
677
00:38:08.091 --> 00:38:11.694
That's when I think you'll start to become vulnerable to your employees.
678
00:38:11.734 --> 00:38:13.937
You'll be like, Alex doesn't even know how the wand works.
679
00:38:14.597 --> 00:38:16.558
So we could just do this on our own.
680
00:38:17.299 --> 00:38:27.645
That's what I'm also wondering about, you know, Reed and Mark's situation is this guy, did he feel, he's like, well, but I know Mark shoots a lot.
681
00:38:27.665 --> 00:38:39.372
Like Mark is still out there shooting his brains out and Reed is not so, yeah, I wonder, I'm just, you know, I wish it'd be so cool if we could do a witness protection program and have him on, you know, all in black.
682
00:38:39.392 --> 00:38:42.875
Cause I think it's just cause of like being an actor in my youth or, um,
683
00:38:43.535 --> 00:38:45.456
I just always want to get inside someone's head.
684
00:38:45.496 --> 00:38:47.757
Like what, what made you want to do that?
685
00:38:47.797 --> 00:38:48.437
Why did you think?
686
00:38:48.477 --> 00:38:50.478
And also, why did you think you were going to get away with it?
687
00:38:50.538 --> 00:38:52.198
That's, that's the craziest part.
688
00:38:52.959 --> 00:38:53.459
But he did.
689
00:38:53.499 --> 00:38:54.439
He did for quite a while.
690
00:38:55.180 --> 00:38:56.300
Yeah, definitely did.
691
00:38:56.960 --> 00:39:02.082
I hate that this happened to them because they're both amazing people and it's devastating.
692
00:39:02.463 --> 00:39:04.443
And I like, I never want to feel that.
693
00:39:04.784 --> 00:39:05.744
I never want to feel that.
694
00:39:05.784 --> 00:39:07.885
So I mean, like people like me and you.
695
00:39:08.990 --> 00:39:14.231
And even them, everybody is always going to work so hard to not lose their best client.
696
00:39:14.751 --> 00:39:14.972
Right?
697
00:39:15.292 --> 00:39:15.812
So it's just...
698
00:39:16.532 --> 00:39:16.852
I just...
699
00:39:17.352 --> 00:39:17.672
I don't know.
700
00:39:17.712 --> 00:39:20.833
It's like I also want to interview the client being like, so why?
701
00:39:21.513 --> 00:39:29.195
Why did you leave these two amazing guys and take a chance on this guy when you know it was also probably the wrong thing to do?
702
00:39:29.775 --> 00:39:31.536
I mean, I wouldn't even trust my client anymore.
703
00:39:31.656 --> 00:39:35.537
If it was that easy for them to just leave, why would...
704
00:39:37.258 --> 00:39:38.560
How are they not going to do that again?
705
00:39:38.580 --> 00:39:44.089
You know, it's the trust in general from employee to client.
706
00:39:44.389 --> 00:39:45.671
It's just like it's broken.
707
00:39:45.691 --> 00:39:46.853
And now they're going to.
708
00:39:47.734 --> 00:39:49.937
Yeah, they're going to feel distrust regardless.
709
00:39:49.957 --> 00:39:51.239
It's going to be a hard thing to get over.
710
00:39:52.001 --> 00:40:02.750
I've been getting really chatty with my agents recently, not from this pod, like before I listened to Mark and Reed's podcast, just like asking them because there's, I've got a lot of new clients this year.
711
00:40:02.790 --> 00:40:03.690
We've definitely grown.
712
00:40:04.611 --> 00:40:07.273
And I've been asking them like, well, who are you working with before?
713
00:40:07.333 --> 00:40:09.055
And they're like, man, they won't really tell me.
714
00:40:09.075 --> 00:40:12.938
I'm like, look, I'm just curious, like what made you leave them and come to me?
715
00:40:12.958 --> 00:40:14.659
Because I know that they lost business.
716
00:40:14.739 --> 00:40:15.420
I gained business.
717
00:40:15.520 --> 00:40:16.581
I'm totally happy to have you.
718
00:40:16.601 --> 00:40:17.462
But I'm just curious.
719
00:40:18.302 --> 00:40:21.664
Also professionally, because I want to know, was there anything that you weren't getting over there?
720
00:40:21.704 --> 00:40:21.905
Right.
721
00:40:22.145 --> 00:40:22.465
Yeah.
722
00:40:22.545 --> 00:40:23.746
And agents are pretty.
723
00:40:24.026 --> 00:40:28.049
It's funny because it's almost like when you're shooting, everyone has so much going on.
724
00:40:28.309 --> 00:40:31.611
The agent is like thinking about 20 phone calls I have to make.
725
00:40:32.111 --> 00:40:34.273
You're thinking about all the data that you have to manage.
726
00:40:34.513 --> 00:40:36.054
You're getting texts from your other shooter.
727
00:40:37.361 --> 00:40:48.138
But if you take a moment and have a real conversation, like a customer service-based conversation with your agent and ask them truly like, what is it that you wish you had more of from us
728
00:40:49.180 --> 00:40:50.001
what weren't you getting?
729
00:40:50.021 --> 00:40:50.902
Why did you come over to us?
730
00:40:50.942 --> 00:40:55.868
Like, if you don't know those answers, you're leaving so much valuable stuff on the table.
731
00:40:55.908 --> 00:41:03.818
Cause I know now, like I've got this great agent this year, Mandy, we worked with a bit last year, but we're working way more with her now.
732
00:41:03.858 --> 00:41:08.123
And we talked about like, why did she come over to us as opposed to who she used to be working with?
733
00:41:08.724 --> 00:41:14.086
And knowing that information is useful because I also know that applies to the other agents that I'm working with.
734
00:41:14.566 --> 00:41:15.866
So now we can even double down.
735
00:41:15.906 --> 00:41:26.150
And honestly, in my market, because we're more rural, it is the personal touch and like taking the time and never feeling rushed and not being nickeled and down.
736
00:41:26.170 --> 00:41:30.071
Like I have a like we have a big region as far as like how far we have to drive.
737
00:41:30.611 --> 00:41:36.353
But we just I just raise my prices enough that I never deal with travel costs because I.
738
00:41:37.393 --> 00:41:41.877
I just, I have found that pricing, like they just want to see a number and be like, okay, I got it.
739
00:41:42.158 --> 00:41:43.199
And they don't want to have to think.
740
00:41:43.239 --> 00:41:51.065
And so that's one thing that, that I know that agents that we work with really like, they're like, well, if he's driving half an hour, an hour, it's the same price.
741
00:41:51.406 --> 00:41:54.008
And on those half an hour drives, I make money.
742
00:41:54.068 --> 00:41:55.489
And on the hour drives, I break even.
743
00:41:55.729 --> 00:41:55.930
Yeah.
744
00:41:56.510 --> 00:42:08.554
But that would be my takeaway for anyone who's like listening to this episode, has listened to the upmarket episode and has any paranoia about their clients, about their employees.
745
00:42:09.194 --> 00:42:15.197
I would highly recommend as much as you want to build a culture with your employees, build a culture with your agents.
746
00:42:15.277 --> 00:42:17.837
You talked about like showing up to events and stuff like that.
747
00:42:18.238 --> 00:42:21.819
But have like, you know, just ask real honest questions with clients.
748
00:42:22.279 --> 00:42:28.461
from the place of I want to do better or I want to be the best, give you the best possible service.
749
00:42:28.661 --> 00:42:32.023
And you'll see agents be like, they'll be almost surprised.
750
00:42:32.063 --> 00:42:34.323
And then you realize not everyone's asking those questions.
751
00:42:34.964 --> 00:42:35.324
Yeah.
752
00:42:36.064 --> 00:42:37.665
That would be have chit chats.
753
00:42:38.545 --> 00:42:38.865
Yeah.
754
00:42:39.345 --> 00:42:40.286
I'll be honest right now.
755
00:42:40.606 --> 00:42:40.866
Like...
756
00:42:41.794 --> 00:42:43.737
business owners, me and you, everyone.
757
00:42:43.937 --> 00:42:49.986
You should always be out there looking for weak points in other people's systems.
758
00:42:50.687 --> 00:42:54.633
So for example, this morning, I have a massive meeting.
759
00:42:54.653 --> 00:42:55.855
Mm-hmm.
760
00:42:56.455 --> 00:43:00.519
take, essentially take this client from somebody.
761
00:43:01.100 --> 00:43:13.071
I've worked really hard to put together these packages, figure out numbers, how I can make this possible for them, because I do know the weak points that this other person is not providing.
762
00:43:13.472 --> 00:43:13.692
How?
763
00:43:13.712 --> 00:43:13.792
How?
764
00:43:14.771 --> 00:43:15.491
Because I asked.
765
00:43:15.932 --> 00:43:16.452
Okay, good.
766
00:43:16.952 --> 00:43:17.732
Yes, I asked.
767
00:43:17.992 --> 00:43:25.376
Because I've had a meeting with this person probably about two years ago, and I've been bugging, and it didn't work out because my price point was too high.
768
00:43:25.796 --> 00:43:28.057
They just had a really good deal with this other person.
769
00:43:28.577 --> 00:43:31.498
But my God, I can see the weak points online.
770
00:43:31.518 --> 00:43:32.219
I can see it.
771
00:43:33.319 --> 00:43:33.760
obvious.
772
00:43:34.320 --> 00:43:35.441
So I reached out again.
773
00:43:35.461 --> 00:43:38.263
I said, Hey, like we're growing, we're doing this, we're doing that.
774
00:43:38.483 --> 00:43:39.944
I would love to meet again.
775
00:43:39.964 --> 00:43:41.946
I have even better.
776
00:43:42.206 --> 00:43:43.607
I have an amazing offer.
777
00:43:44.488 --> 00:43:45.509
Let me run this through you.
778
00:43:46.249 --> 00:43:55.576
So they're coming to my office this morning, 930 and I'm going to sell my little ass off and fill all the cracks that they have.
779
00:43:56.477 --> 00:44:21.422
right now with their current provider so there's just too much ass and cracks in there that's great too many ass and cracks you know yeah my favorite yeah so you ask girl so you ask the questions found out the weak points and now have like built a solution um so you're not you're not just stabbing in the dark and you're gonna sell your you're gonna sell your ass off
780
00:44:22.230 --> 00:44:22.750
Absolutely.
781
00:44:22.971 --> 00:44:23.971
And they're coming to my office.
782
00:44:23.991 --> 00:44:29.134
So they get to see like what we're doing, our growth from the last two years to this year.
783
00:44:29.154 --> 00:44:30.215
I think it was even three.
784
00:44:30.635 --> 00:44:32.036
Like we had a smaller office.
785
00:44:32.777 --> 00:44:34.918
Now we have a bigger office and it's just like, okay.
786
00:44:35.538 --> 00:44:36.699
You're going to have no wrinkles.
787
00:44:36.819 --> 00:44:38.220
You're going to have your face mask.
788
00:44:38.400 --> 00:44:38.680
Yeah.
789
00:44:38.861 --> 00:44:40.121
Flawless.
790
00:44:40.742 --> 00:44:42.243
So they're going to be like, wow.
791
00:44:42.463 --> 00:44:44.444
You can't, you can't Oliver.
792
00:44:44.544 --> 00:44:45.045
You can't.
793
00:44:45.245 --> 00:44:45.625
Okay.
794
00:44:45.865 --> 00:44:46.626
Back in action.
795
00:44:46.646 --> 00:44:48.427
I did drop that.
796
00:44:48.788 --> 00:44:49.508
Okay.
797
00:44:49.528 --> 00:44:53.572
So my question was, you found out the weak point of that business.
798
00:44:54.072 --> 00:45:02.559
If you had to self-analyze your company and you were going to do that to yourself, are you aware of your own weaknesses?
799
00:45:03.060 --> 00:45:03.660
Oh, yeah.
800
00:45:04.301 --> 00:45:04.741
Oh, yeah.
801
00:45:04.761 --> 00:45:05.262
100%.
802
00:45:05.282 --> 00:45:05.902
Give me one.
803
00:45:07.249 --> 00:45:14.792
One of our weaknesses right now is some of our new shooters, they're like, you can see they're unconfident in some of their shoots.
804
00:45:15.232 --> 00:45:21.895
So solution, Kate has told me, and I was like, okay, well, you need to get them, you need to shoot a house with them.
805
00:45:22.335 --> 00:45:24.176
So you're going to go with them to a shoot.
806
00:45:24.416 --> 00:45:25.437
You're going to let them shoot.
807
00:45:25.917 --> 00:45:28.638
Then you're going to shoot after, and then you're going to compare photos.
808
00:45:29.118 --> 00:45:30.379
So like, yeah.
809
00:45:30.419 --> 00:45:32.620
So, you know, my clients are not afraid.
810
00:45:32.974 --> 00:45:34.816
But that is resource heavy on your part.
811
00:45:35.117 --> 00:45:35.938
Yeah, for sure.
812
00:45:36.078 --> 00:45:43.687
But like, if I'm investing in a shooter and I want them to be at the level of Northern Spruce Media, they need to up it.
813
00:45:44.248 --> 00:45:47.132
And, you know, so that is a weak point for us right now.
814
00:45:47.832 --> 00:45:48.994
And we're trying to fix it.
815
00:45:49.274 --> 00:45:53.295
And the thing is, is like, if we can't, then we, you know, we have to do what we kind of do.
816
00:45:53.655 --> 00:45:59.317
But like the best we can do is continue to invest in that person because like I love them.
817
00:45:59.517 --> 00:46:00.197
I value them.
818
00:46:00.237 --> 00:46:00.858
I think they're great.
819
00:46:00.878 --> 00:46:02.418
And I do know they have what it takes.
820
00:46:02.518 --> 00:46:04.359
It's just we got to get their confidence up.
821
00:46:04.539 --> 00:46:05.419
So we've got to work on that.
822
00:46:06.387 --> 00:46:07.267
That's a one-week point.
823
00:46:07.507 --> 00:46:08.487
Yeah, gotcha.
824
00:46:08.988 --> 00:46:10.948
Yeah, that's something I like to think about.
825
00:46:10.968 --> 00:46:14.469
Like, what is it that... Because there's always a shuffle every year.
826
00:46:14.549 --> 00:46:16.049
Agents will kind of come and go.
827
00:46:16.089 --> 00:46:21.830
Like, there's, you know, somewhere in the bottom end of your roster, people will shuffle around and try out different services.
828
00:46:21.870 --> 00:46:24.511
There'll be companies that offer free shoots.
829
00:46:24.571 --> 00:46:28.072
And so some of your non-loyal agents will go test the waters over there.
830
00:46:28.492 --> 00:46:33.833
So I'm always thinking, like, what is it that I can do that creates kind of a moat around my business where...
831
00:46:34.554 --> 00:46:39.412
Even if people go away, they're going to come back because they know that the grass is just greener over here.
832
00:46:39.721 --> 00:46:46.846
That's a very healthy way, I think, to approach this without being paranoid because you can't prevent any business from from doing anything.
833
00:46:46.866 --> 00:46:47.046
Right.
834
00:46:47.106 --> 00:46:49.107
There's no way you can you can stop.
835
00:46:49.287 --> 00:46:52.910
I think I know that you do have your meeting coming up and you want to crush there.
836
00:46:52.990 --> 00:46:54.270
So I do want to wrap this up.
837
00:46:54.871 --> 00:46:56.612
Well, I wanted to ask you.
838
00:46:56.632 --> 00:46:57.753
Oh, this is.
839
00:46:57.813 --> 00:46:58.073
Yeah.
840
00:46:58.913 --> 00:47:06.078
And this is, you know, do you think going public like Mark and and Reed going public?
841
00:47:06.999 --> 00:47:07.859
Was that the right move?
842
00:47:08.520 --> 00:47:09.160
I think I would.
843
00:47:10.093 --> 00:47:10.333
Yeah.
844
00:47:10.894 --> 00:47:11.674
Like, I think I would.
845
00:47:12.015 --> 00:47:14.276
I mean, I'm a spicy, I'm a spicy person.
846
00:47:14.296 --> 00:47:15.918
Not afraid of conflict.
847
00:47:16.498 --> 00:47:16.799
No.
848
00:47:17.119 --> 00:47:25.926
So if something is like bothering me to my core, I'm the type of person I need to talk about it, get it off my chest, clap my hands, move on.
849
00:47:26.627 --> 00:47:33.572
And I think like, I think it's a good thing that they are talking about it because I mean, I got, you know, someone wanted to be coached by me.
850
00:47:34.493 --> 00:47:38.314
last week and they just live maybe 40 minutes away.
851
00:47:38.334 --> 00:47:39.835
And she was like, but you're my competition.
852
00:47:39.855 --> 00:47:42.816
I was like, I'm not going to steal your clients, girl.
853
00:47:42.836 --> 00:47:43.876
I just want to see you grow.
854
00:47:44.137 --> 00:47:47.618
And I told her, I was like, you are your worst enemy.
855
00:47:47.718 --> 00:47:53.240
So yeah, it's something a lot of media companies fear or companies in general fear.
856
00:47:54.240 --> 00:47:55.700
And it happens.
857
00:47:55.900 --> 00:48:00.941
So I think somebody talking about it actually happening is very good for people to hear.
858
00:48:01.461 --> 00:48:06.382
But also, it's a good thing for people to take a step back and be like, okay, well, I don't want this to happen.
859
00:48:06.402 --> 00:48:08.803
So what can I do to make sure it doesn't happen to me?
860
00:48:09.943 --> 00:48:12.544
So I do think it's a great thing to talk about.
861
00:48:12.884 --> 00:48:17.144
And now we have a great example, a great, real bad example.
862
00:48:17.504 --> 00:48:19.705
And everyone should be grateful it didn't happen to them.
863
00:48:20.799 --> 00:48:23.360
And yeah, I feel for those guys.
864
00:48:23.400 --> 00:48:26.061
They are two lovely human beings.
865
00:48:26.761 --> 00:48:27.021
Yes.
866
00:48:27.261 --> 00:48:30.282
And that was really, you know, that was a podcast question.
867
00:48:30.322 --> 00:48:40.606
I just kind of wanted to ask something that felt a little bit scary, but I ultimately think that going public was an incredibly generous thing to do for the industry.
868
00:48:40.906 --> 00:48:45.387
I personally, like, I think it's the question for them, I imagine, was like the conflict, right?
869
00:48:45.407 --> 00:48:46.528
Because once you go public...
870
00:48:47.348 --> 00:48:47.788
It's real.
871
00:48:47.828 --> 00:48:51.070
There's no way to, like now they're in.
872
00:48:51.090 --> 00:48:55.771
Like they tipped over and they're committed and now that has to unwind.
873
00:48:55.791 --> 00:48:57.532
So I do hope they do a follow-up episode.
874
00:48:57.552 --> 00:48:59.933
I want to, I would love to know how that all went for them.
875
00:49:00.093 --> 00:49:05.235
But I would like, you know, to thank on our podcast, their podcast, for being so open about stuff like that.
876
00:49:05.375 --> 00:49:05.635
Yeah.
877
00:49:06.035 --> 00:49:09.677
That's the type of like, if you haven't listened to the podcast, you really have to because,
878
00:49:10.337 --> 00:49:21.007
That's the type of like high level business owner, worst case scenario stuff that luckily for all the listeners, we get to go through vicariously through them.
879
00:49:21.067 --> 00:49:22.808
And that's extremely valuable.
880
00:49:22.868 --> 00:49:26.492
So it's really generous that they went public with it.
881
00:49:26.512 --> 00:49:28.934
And I don't even think it was like a legal move.
882
00:49:29.094 --> 00:49:35.140
I think, I don't know, Reid seems very dedicated to sharing the good word, the inside word of how to build the business.
883
00:49:35.160 --> 00:49:35.340
So.
884
00:49:35.680 --> 00:49:36.461
Really valuable.
885
00:49:37.303 --> 00:49:40.548
So thank you, Reed and Mark, for sharing that with everybody.
886
00:49:41.773 --> 00:49:43.353
You're going to, you look wrinkle free.
887
00:49:43.453 --> 00:49:47.114
You're going to go land a massive client, grow your business even more.
888
00:49:47.234 --> 00:49:51.135
I'm going to go see what's going on upstairs with my wife and kids.
889
00:49:51.696 --> 00:49:54.296
Thanks so much for getting up early and doing this with me.
890
00:49:54.316 --> 00:50:02.318
I really did want to react to that podcast because I thought it was like, if anything I've heard on a business podcast, that was like very raw and honest.
891
00:50:02.378 --> 00:50:06.399
And so I wanted to follow, I wanted to continue that conversation because it's super valuable.
892
00:50:06.419 --> 00:50:08.420
So thanks for all those insights too.
893
00:50:08.600 --> 00:50:09.581
Yeah, no problem.
894
00:50:09.661 --> 00:50:10.181
Thank you.
895
00:50:10.281 --> 00:50:12.063
And thank you, Mark and Reed.
896
00:50:12.163 --> 00:50:13.203
And I love you guys so much.
897
00:50:13.223 --> 00:50:14.665
You guys are the OGs.
898
00:50:15.065 --> 00:50:17.186
And yeah, everyone admires you guys.
899
00:50:17.226 --> 00:50:17.987
So thank you.
900
00:50:18.327 --> 00:50:18.567
All right.
901
00:50:18.587 --> 00:50:19.168
See you next time.
902
00:50:19.808 --> 00:50:20.549
Bye, buddy.
903
00:50:21.409 --> 00:50:21.750
See ya.